Tremendous post, Jon. One of the best ever.

In past years I've always been one of the Tracy supporters, but this year I find myself somewhere in the middle. Tracy has done a bad job this year. That means that in his four years as manager, he's done four pretty good jobs and one bad one. Are there better managers? I don't know, probably. I don't know who they are, though, and despite what the FJT crowd will tell you, neither do they. The most dispiriting part of the Tracy situation for me -- and the worst thing ever to happen to Dodger Thoughts, IMO -- have been the constant hand-wringing, snide comments, and distortions by the FJT people this year. What the FJT folks need most is a serious dose of perspective. "Anyone but Tracy" is an ignorant and counterproductive argument. Whatever his flaws, it's apparent if you watch any other teams at all that Tracy is not only not the worst manager in baseball, he's not even close. I doubt he's the best, either, but advocating his firing without having another candidate in mind, and knowing that candidate's philosophy, strengths, and weaknesses, is just silly.

Now, I'm not saying I'm in love with Tracy. I'm not. Frankly, I can take him or leave him. I'm against firing him right now, mostly because it's pointless and a waste of resources. For one thing, the firing of Tracy would bring a media sh*tstorm to the GM's door. Plaschke would be calling for DePodesta's execution by guillotine at sundown. Plus, the guy hired to replace Tracy, if he comes from the traditional pool of managerial candidates, likely to be even worse. There will be extraordinary pressure brought by Plaschke, Simers, et al, for McCourt to hire a famous, high-priced, "proven" manager with a track record -- somebody like Dusty Baker. Not only are these types of managers even more set in their bizarre ways than Tracy is, but they're also very expensive. And Tracy is already under contract for next season, so we're paying him whether he manages or not. I'd rather spend the $2 million per year on player salaries than on some new manager who is unlikely to be much different from Tracy, and is a fair bet to be even worse.

Strengths and weaknesses of Jim Tracy, as I see them:

STRENGTHS
- Seems to have the respect of his players, and is very good at dealing with their individual quirks and problems. (see Bradley, Milton)
- In years prior to 2005, was able to get his roster to overachieve significantly.
- Possesses the even-keeled demeanor that is (IMO) essential for a manager.
- Is very good at platooning, and also deploying the right pinch hitter at the right time.
- Has a way of getting value from certain players that few other managers would get -- Paul Lo Duca and Eric Gagne owe their stardom to him.

WEAKNESSES
- Bunts too often; uses the hit-and-run play too often.
- Makes inefficient use of his best relievers.
- Develops inexplicable, permanent grudges against certain players. Frequently harps on what a player can't do (i.e., field) and ignores what he can do (i.e., hit).
- Values defense and "scrappiness" too highly.
- His quotes to the media make little sense. (While FJT people consider this a fatal weakness, I don't, necessarily. I want my manager to be crazy like a fox. With Tracy, though, sometimes it's hard to tell whether he's crazy like a fox, or just crazy.)

So we're still discounting all of the blather about DePodesta being on the hot seat? That's good to hear.

Uh, make that five years, not four...

2 - I am, completely.

4- I'd like to be, but being out here in Chicago, and refusing to register for the LA Times, it's hard to know what to make of all the hullabaloo.

first of all, great post, jon. you take "passionate moderation" and raise to an art form.

the other thing i wanted to say was that i think there's a distinction between "anybody but jim tracy" and "jim tracy needs to go". the former isn't often said out of anything other than immediate frustration. but the latter, i think, can be asserted without having to name an alternative. i don't know who the best manager for the dodgers would be. i haven't interviewed anybody, and i don't have any major league personnel in my rolodex. i don't know any baseball men. figuring that out is the job of the front office. but what i think i can tell just from watching, is that it's pretty clear that jim tracy isn't the guy for this team. either he needs a different roster or this roster needs a different manager. they're incompatible. and considering we just did the whole roster-turnover thing this past season, changing managers seems like the easier and more sensible thing to do.

and speaking of the turnover and the ownership and philosophy change, maybe depodesta and mccourt did kind of pull the rug out from under trace. but JT sure hasn't been able to adjust to it. at least a new manager will know what the situation is going in.

1 - Thanks, Eric. I would argue that this:

-Develops inexplicable, permanent grudges against certain players. Frequently harps on what a player can't do (i.e., field) and ignores what he can do (i.e., hit).
- Values defense and "scrappiness" too highly.

proves that this:

- Possesses the even-keeled demeanor that is (IMO) essential for a manager.
- Is very good at platooning, and also deploying the right pinch hitter at the right time.

is no longer true.

And again, I think it's fine to argue that you can do better at a position, be it manager, player or marketing director, without knowing who the replacement is by name. Just don't endorse other names irresponsibly - instead, endorse your philosophy and entrust someone to find the right person if possible.

But I agree that if you haven't seen a manager worse than Tracy, just wait five minutes.

5 You can use random accounts for newspapers etc if you plug in the url at www.bugmenot.com

7 - One of the reasons Tracy has not succeeded with platooning this season is because there's really been nobody to platoon. I see no reason why, given a capable major league roster in 2006, Tracy would not be an effective platooner again. (Aside from the occasional Choi whom he bears a grudge against.)

Also, I guess I'm not seeing how the even-keeled part is contradicted. I'm completely missing that.

But, but, if extreme yet half-formed opinions based on cherry-picked facts and demonizing the other side can't find a comfy home on the internet, where exactly are they welcome?

(great post)

9 - I don't think holding grudges meshes with being even-keeled.

7 as far as endorsements go, i don't think the endorsement of some random internet nerds like us really means anything in the scheme of things. we don't really know the real philosophies of most of these guys. obviously, i have no idea of what, say, orel hershiser(to toss out a name people, including myself, have been mentioning) would be like as a manager. but he's the kind of name that would be exciting to us for depodesta to be checking into. i mean, it's possible that orel could be the second coming of manager mike "smallball" scioscia, in which case he wouldn't work. but with a new manager, depodesta would have to ask this stuff before he gets hired, right?

anyway, regardless, it's exciting to speculate about possible new managerial flings, because the love affair with tracy is over. do we really have the kind of responsibility you're endowing us with? what's wrong with just throwing some names out there? :)

10 haha, exactly.

Jon,

Assuming that you have all the time and connections in the world (ha ha), it would be a fun offseason DT project for you to interview prospective managerial candidates, determining their particular philosophies and such.

I'm interested in Orel Hershiser, for example, but aside from the fact that he's always come off as fairly intelligent, and he kind of looks like DePodesta, I really have no idea what he'd be like leading a team and how he would coexist with the current GM. It'd be nice to get more insight.

As for Eric's comments, I definitely think hiring a "proven" manager would be the absolute wrong choice, despite the cries of the MSM. If the Dodgers front office starts making decisions to appease those folks, we might as well give up now.

12 - Aspire for greatness.

When I started this site, I had one reader. If I had operated under the assumption that what I said didn't matter, I'd still probably only have one reader.

Now, people in the media and with the Dodgers not only read me, they read you. Do they obey my every wish? Not at all. But something registers.

I want you all to have fun, and certainly, there's no harm in suggesting a name and seeing what other people think - using this forum for research.

But gosh, don't write under the assumption that no one will care. Some people won't care, but some will.

But if you have no idea about something, don't write as if you do. Otherwise, when you do have an idea about something, no one will care.

Jon and Eric--both great reads.

The FJT crowd has made some very trenchant arguments on a game-by-game basis, which is where I think Tracy is most vulnerable to criticism. His lineups seem to suboptimize whatever ability this weak team has to score runs. But I do think the Tracy-haters have ignored his qualities as a team leader. In addition to Gagne and LoDuca, I'd add Milton Bradley to the list of players that Tracy got more out of than another manager would've. Somebody has to get the credit for the emergence of Duaner Sanchez as a legitimate pitcher. And someone has to get the credit for keeping the 2003 team in contention until the end of the season, and for winning the division in 2004. Those were not very good teams.

To me, Tracy sort of resembles Dusty Baker-- a good leader especially of veteran players, but lacking the intellectual firepower to make consistently good judgments. But even the smartest managers don't win unless they've got a lot more good players than the Dodgers have had in any one of the past 20 seasons.

The Dodger fans have been let down over the past two decades by weak ownership, and awful GM's -- Fred Claire and Kevin Malone especially. Tracy's failings are of little consequence compared with the damage done by the top brass. And he'll have much less to say about the Dodgers' future than Paul DePodesta and Frank McCourt will. Jury is still out on them.

14 - I'm gonna need to start earning a DT salary to devote that kind of time. Otherwise, that's why I'm willing to leave the job hunt to DePodesta.

17 Well, it's your site. Don't you think you're due for a raise?

17 I know. I was just saying it would be fun.

I'd like to earn a salary for posting here full time.

19 - I know. And I'd love to deputize you all with pay.

Deputize us? I thought only The Sheriff could do that.

Beg Tom Kelly to come out of retirement.

14- For some reason, I'm very intrigued by the thought of Hershiser as well.

In terms of a rebuilding process (which may or may not include hiring a new manager), what I don't want to see is a tired retread of some generic pre-existing manager. (For the record, if Depo brings in a new manager, I don't expect him to follow that path). Jumping sports for a moment to football: when the Niners fired Mariucci, they were on the cusp of promoting their defensive coordinator Jim Mora Jr. to head coach. To me, this was an exciting move, and reason enough to follow the team closely. Unfortunately, they went with the generic choice -- Dennis Erickson -- and the result was two absolutely miserable years. Jim Mora Jr. is now coaching a playoff-calibre team in Atlanta.

Jon, you argue for moderation when it comes to Tracy. Point well taken, but every game accentuates the chasm between the two philosophies fighting over the Dodgers. Will Tracy adjust? Will Depo adjust (should he adjust)? I can't see a successful team unless one or the other happens... or unless Tracy moves on to another team and Depo puts in a Gene Macha-type.

16 - "Somebody has to get the credit for the emergence of Duaner Sanchez as a legitimate pitcher."

Just taking this as an example. You imply that perhaps this person getting credit should be Tracy. I'm not sure why this would be true, but even if it were, should Tracy then not take the fall for the struggles that Brazoban, Lowe, Perez, Weaver, Carrara, Houlton, Erickson, etc., etc.?

This is the flip side of the "anyone's better than Tracy" myth, and the kind of line that rightfully propels the FJT angst. There is a tendency to credit Tracy with any good development under his watch. Given the amount of pitching flops that we saw in 2005, it seems more likely that Sanchez's improvement in 2005 came despite Tracy, or at least regardless of Tracy, or that Tracy works magic on some pitchers but evil on others.

At a minimum, I'd leave this kind of argument out - it's another kind of overstep.

15 - fair enough. i know the site has a lot of readers, and that's partly why we post here, to toss out our random ideas, crackpot theories, and flashes of insight, so we can get some feedback and perpetuate them to a larger audience, in addition to the broader purpose of having a sense of community and discussing a topic we care about (the dodgers). if someone with any power whatsoever sees what's being said and finds it useful, so much the better. i don't think any of us has an expectation that depodesta himself is hanging on our 500 comments a day, but i get what you're saying.

#16: The argument that Jim Tracy "gets more out of his players" is frustrating to me because there is very little basis. For every Eric Gagne, Paul Lo Duca, Adrian Beltre, or Duaner Sanchez, there's a corresponding Juan Encarnacion (2004), Hee Seop Choi (2004 / 2005), Jeromy Burnitz (2003), or Mark Grudzielanek (2001 / 2002). It's easy to just claim the positive performances, but there are a number of players who have performed significantly below career averages under Tracy as well.

25 - Right. And I get what you're saying, too. But if people here are going to criticize Tracy for his random ideas, crackpot theories, and flashes of insight, or Plaschke for his random ideas, crackpot theories, and flashes of insight, they should probably reduce their own. Otherwise, we're just going to be stuck with them all around.

Every joke I make on DT I make for my beloved Paul D.

#24/26: Lesson learned: Refresh before posting in case Jon has already made my point more eloquently than I could.

hehe, random ideas and flashes of insight can be positives! i was hoping to suggest that there's some good mixed in there with the tripe. but yes, the less tripe the better. i'd like to think i'm not one of the primary offenders in this regard.

Jon--

Thank you for the great post. One fundamantal of argumentation is that if you have 10 points to make, 3 of them solid and 7 of them so-so, it is best to stick with your three solid points and never mention the other 7. I think one problem with the comments in the past half-season is that the "7" are being mentioned so often (i.e. a good decision was made on using a relief pitcher and then the writer concludes that DePo must have ordered the change because Tracy could never think of that). I love this site but it is frustrating to read through so many irrational arguments of hatred against Jim Tracy and the Choi is God arguments so that I can get to the good stuff.

My natural inclination is to defend someone being unfairly attacked. I think Tracy has serious flaws but I find myself on his side often only because I think he is being unfairly attacked. That is partly what happens when you overextend.

I have enjoyed today's discussion...it is nice to see a solid discussion of Tracy's faults.

Thanks Jon

30 - Believe me, I'm grateful every day for the overwhelming good in the comments and the relative paucity of tripe!

29 - Nah, you did it in fewer words. Always better.

31 good point. i think that part of the reason why some people are so eager to attack tracy is because they see him as being "unfairly defended" by the media. and then the arguments tend to spiral out of control, ad nauseum.

33 - Yes.

This would be revolutionary, but Duaner Sanchez could get the credit for becoming a legitimate pitcher.

And "Tracy Instead of Anyone" is an ignorant and counterproductive argument.

depo should ask JD Drew who should manage the team. we need someone who can tap into his talent, which is capable of 40 or 50 homers and 20 steals.

Man, looking at the sidebar, I had not realized how bad the Dodgers have done on the road. That's quite a split. (Our host, I've previously noted, reverses the trend and does significantly (infinitely?) better on the road, but he now seems to have fallen to two games under .500 for the season.) Not being able to actually attend Dodger games myself, I'm left to this . . .

Bob Denver has passed away.

35, 36 - agreed

38 - my home record this year is frustratingly against the trend of previous years.

Reduce the number of possible Tracy replacements by one. Bob Denver just died.

i find things like a trickling down effect.
first its very hard if not impossible to put together a championship calliber team with a 90 something million dollar payroll without having a certain number of players from the farm that have no significant flaws, so you can go out and get better free agents than lets say odalis perez, jose valentin ect.
i believe if the dodgers payroll was about 130 million depodesta would have built a better team, but depodesta built a good enough team with the lack of payroll to get the dodgers into the playoffs and make some (and i emphasize some) noise in the playoffs, but a combination of tracy's decisions(i can explain what i mean by decision if you want but i've done it several times allready)and injuries have made this team below 500, i also believe that if we had a manager that didn't make so many blunders we would be at 500 ball or just barely above (basically tied with san diego right now), then if you add in the games we lost from injuries i believe we would be 10 or so games above 500.

conclusion: mccourt should have had a higher payroll (about 130 million) untill the players from the farm that are ready without significant flaws show up (assuming 2007)so depodesta could go out and get quality free agents not mediocre free agents which would trickle down to tracy not making as many blunders (i think, but we are talking about tracy).

conclusion 2: better players would have limited tracy's blunders (i don't blame depodesta for lack of better players, i blame mccourt and his lower payroll than it takes).

conclusion 3: depodesta did the best he could with the resources he was given, tracy hasn't.

conclusion 4: in a perfect world the dodgers would have an owner that could afford a 130 million dollar payroll and a sabermetrics manager that is on the same page as depodesta (who they are, i don't know, i don't pay attention to other teams managers or to possible owners).

39

In honor of Maynard G. Krebs, I will shriek today anyone says the word "work."

39- Will he be buried on the island?

I don't see how any manager could have gotten a marginally better record with this team as it is constituted than Tracy has. Just too many players who are either too old, too young, or too untalented. It's better than 1992, but this team seems a lot more like some of the Dodger squads in the 1930s. And those were some up and down years.

42- Signing Valentin for 3.5 instead of Randa for 2.1 is not doing the best you can with your budget.

i have a lot more insight into JD Drew now that I read 3 nights in August.

42- Oh, and it strikes me your very generous with mccourt's $

Speaking of distortions, how can a manager be good at platooning when he's too dumb to even write "Saenz" in the lineup card against LHP and "Choi" in the lineup card against RHP?

47

I wouldn't say that Tony LaRussa is an unbiased source when it comes to JD Drew. He just didn't like him. But I don't think Bobby Cox had any problems with Drew.

But I don't think Bobby Cox has an ego that's as large as La Russa's.

Great post, Jon. I stopped reading the comments this weekend, for exactly the reason that you highlight. I just stopped back, looking for new posts, and you came through with a winner.

I think that most of the "extreme" posts (at least before this weekend) were all in fun, and I took them as such. Others were just as funny, but unintentionally so.

I find myself in agreement with Vishal 6. I think this season has shown (after last season's audition) that Tracy is not the guy to manage a DePodesta team, and is unwilling or unable to adapt (it doesn't matter which). So I think Vishal is right that "anyone is better than JT" is different than "Tracy must go." I also accepted Eric's point 1 that firing JT during the season would be pointless unless the perfect candidate had revealed himself to DePo. But now, the off-season gives DePodesta 4-5 months to find someone. And that someone needn't be perfect - but needs at minimum to be someone willing to implement the front office philosophy. The trick, as we've discussed before, is to find someone like that (either sabr-oriented himself or at least flexible and open-minded) who also will command the respect of the players. No easy task. I think the reason I suggested Hershiser a few months ago was that I guessed that he'd fit criterion A, was quite sure he'd fit criterion B, and as an added bonus, would enjoy a honeymoon from the MSM, as a former Dodger great. But I admit, I was only guessing on the philosophy-of-baseball part, hoping that his years with Showalter had helped in that regard. OTOH, he, like Scioscia, might have been scarred by his years as a Dodger player, when 1-0 was the only way to win.

There's actually a very nice message at www.bobdenver.com. Apparently, he passed away a few days ago.

His wife's name was/is Dreama.

46-- remember valentin and perez were suppose to platoon at 3b from the get go (this was said right from depodesta's mouth)(manager/gm not on the same page) and this platoon would have been better than randa.

47 And you might have a lot more insight into Choi if someone interviews Tracy for a book.

I think it's a little brassy to suggest that anyone, even in Los Angeles, should have spent an extra $40 million just on principle.

We've got enough on our plate today that I don't want to reopen the argument of whether McCourt should have been the one to buy the Dodgers, so just acknolwedging that he is the owner like it or not, it's doubtful that a $130 million payroll was any kind of option. It's like saying that J.D. Drew should not have gotten hurt by that pitch or D.J. Houlton should have pitched like Roger Clemens.

"So I think Vishal is right that "anyone is better than JT" is different than "Tracy must go."

---

I completely agree. But some are not realizing that - and I don't think it's all been in fun.

54 - La Russa played JD, and La Russa says many times that he is the best fastball hitter in the league, but La Russa always says that he could never tap into JDs potential. Jim Tracy (or so it seems) does not even try.

I thought this statement would provoke more reaction from both sides:

If a player played with the irrationality, if not outright disrespect, that Tracy manages with, he would be benched, if not suspended.

Agree? Disagree?

Presumably, the counterargument is that DePodesta has given Tracy the freedom to manage however he likes - so no "benching." But, as I think Steve might say, is this an indication that DePodesta has shown too much deference, media firestorm be damned?

57

What exactly was Tracy supposed to do with Drew?
"Hey, J.D., go up there and be a good hitter."
"You gotta it, Skip!"
"Thanks."

24, 26 -- Well, I guess my point in raising Sanchez was: He didn't seem to have much going for him til he was given the closer role. Folks here referred to him as a "gascan"--quite rightly. Tracy deserves a portion of the credit for keeping the guy's confidence up enough to where he could step into this new role and succeed.

Likewise, he probably deserves some of the credit for getting Brazoban's career off to such a good start. Brazoban's in a slump; maybe the league has adjusted to this one-trick pony, but the Dodgers (Tracy, Colborn, whoever) were able to rely on him for quite a while.

Sure, some of the Dodgers have excelled or flopped purely on their own. Lowe's a good example of both. But about the only player I can point to who played poorly for Tracy and went on to play significantly better elsewhere is Grudzielanek. That's the best example before this year of how Tracy's grudges stand in the way. Mentioning Burnitz or Encarnacion is unpersuasive. They played for the Dodgers so briefly that their failures here could be a matter of sample size (and I would not want either of them back). So we're left with Choi, and I just don't think anyone knows whether he will be a better player next year for Tampa Bay than he was in LA this year. It's no contradiction to say Tracy has an unfair grudge against Choi, and Choi is a player of limited ability.

While 24 and 26 make an important point, I think a very good argument can be made that Eric Gagne and Paul Lo Duca would not be ERIC GAGNE and PAUL LO DUCA had Tracy not been their manager. Lo Duca would likely either be retired or an AAAA player, and Gagne would probably be a middling starter. In those two specific cases, there is reason to credit Tracy for their emergence.

59 - i guess you are right, but doesnt JD atleast LOOK like you could scream at him and threaten to bench him and he would perform incredibly?

PS I laughed at your post

24, 26 -- Well, I guess my point in raising Sanchez was: He didn't seem to have much going for him til he was given the closer role. Folks here referred to him as a "gascan"--quite rightly. Tracy deserves a portion of the credit for keeping the guy's confidence up enough to where he could step into this new role and succeed.

Likewise, he probably deserves some of the credit for getting Brazoban's career off to such a good start. Brazoban's in a slump; maybe the league has adjusted to this one-trick pony, but the Dodgers (Tracy, Colborn, whoever) were able to rely on him for quite a while.

Sure, some of the Dodgers have excelled or flopped purely on their own. Lowe's a good example of both. But about the only player I can point to who played poorly for Tracy and went on to play significantly better elsewhere is Grudzielanek. That's the best example before this year of how Tracy's grudges stand in the way. Mentioning Burnitz or Encarnacion is unpersuasive. They played for the Dodgers so briefly that their failures here could be a matter of sample size (and I would not want either of them back). So we're left with Choi, and I just don't think anyone knows whether he will be a better player next year for Tampa Bay than he was in LA this year. It's no contradiction to say Tracy has an unfair grudge against Choi, and Choi is a player of limited ability.

"If a player played with the irrationality, if not outright disrespect, that Tracy manages with, he would be benched, if not suspended."

If it is a bad player, agree.

If it is a good player, disagree.

I'm one who was very excited to hear that DePodesta was going to be the new Dodger GM. I then liked all of his moves, not blaming him that Lowe had to be over-paid, and knowing that Valentin (the one we THOUGHT we were getting) would be a stop-gap, in platoon with Perez. I was very optimistic, but I'm sure I posted back in March or April that despite all that, I was pretty sure the team was a couple years away, and that while that squad, if healthy, should win the West easily, they were not in StL's class. And who knew the Braves would find such talented rookies (they started with Mondesi and Jordan out there, recall), but since they did, clearly they're a better team than the best-case-scenario Dodgers.

All of which is to say that even optimistic DePodesta fans knew that this was a work-in-progress, and a team with some serious question marks (bullpen other than Gagne, 5th starter, 3rd base, catcher, LF). So no one is to blame for the 2005 Dodgers not winning the World Series - that was never in the cards. So then the question becomes, what changes would be best in pursuit of that goal in the near future? What has this season taught us? One change that now seems obvious is that the manager has to be someone whose philosophy matches the roster he's given, and that's not true right now. Ergo, they need a new manager (or a new roster). That's clearly not the ONLY thing that should be changed, but it's just as clearly ONE necessary change.

sorry for the two-fer.

I think they referred to him as a gascan, but I don't think they did so "quite rightly." It was more that people tend to like horrible relief pitchers they have heard of and that cost more, like Paul Quantrill. Sanchez has been consistent, and had many more good outings then bad.

"Likewise, he probably deserves some of the credit for getting Brazoban's career off to such a good start. Brazoban's in a slump; maybe the league has adjusted to this one-trick pony..."

Isn't this really the problem right here? Brazoban's start is Tracy's credit. Brazoban's slump is his own.

one thing i love about duaner is his ability to keep runners on pretty well (from what I have seen) with only using the slide-step occasionally, if at all

And Mike Edwards wouldn't be MIKE EDWARDS

"If a player played with the irrationality, if not outright disrespect, that Tracy manages with, he would be benched, if not suspended."

I agreed with this when I read it, but it's also possible that DePo has been very deferential to the career-baseball man in the uni. That he just told him "do your best," and stepped aside. In which case, Tracy is just being Tracy, for better or for worse (I'd say "worse" in this case), and not disrespectful, because he's not been given any specific orders to ignore.

In which case, the ball is now in the GM's court.

i got this pack of 1992 baseball cards and it shows what player led each major statistical category. what player in the dodgers system (including big league team) that now sucks is on the cover of one of those cards, and what team was he on then?

Jim Tracy should have been fired yesterday. The worst thing to happen to the dodgers was actually winning the division last season as it secured Tracy's return for 1 more season.

How can anyone justify saying that Tracy is a good manager? I like to think back to the week after Choi hit the 5 homers versus Minnesota batting from the 2 slot. Choi is on fire so Tracy's in baseball wisdom only he would understand drops Choi to the 7th spot. Nice. Choi of coarse dosen't get a hit in 2 days which give Tracy reason to bury him for the season.

Then on to Chicago. The Dodgers are facing Beurhle(sp) the Dodger line up includes Mike Rose at catcher and Jason Phillips at 1st base. What Tracy is trying to sell us is that minor league journeyman Rose has a better chance of success against the southpaw then Choi because he basically replaced Rose with Choi. If memory serves me Rose dosen't hit the ball out of the infield vs Beurhle.

Tracy's argument for NOT playing Antonio Perez (when he is clearly our second best active hitter) centers around Perez inability to play defense at 3rd. Then the Dodgers lose a game last night because Tracy has gold glove winner Mike Edwards at 3rd. Are you really trying to tell me that Edwards is that much better defensively then Perez, enough to justify not playing the offensively superior Perez. Tracy's love for Robles boggles the mind. There is no way on any planet, even this bizzaro dodger planet jim has created the Robles should play over Perez.

Even if one were to buy Tracy's argument, even if one were to agree with his hatred for Choi, and agree that Robles is so good he has to play everyday at 3rd, the fact that he plays Jason Phillips when he gives Saenz a day off is enough to get Tracy fired. Jason Phillips is a piece of garbage. How bout Kent to 1st and Perez to 2nd on days when you rest Seanz. Jim that might be our best line up.

There are many more reasons as to why Tracy should be 86'd. When i have a little more time i would like to share an essay debunking this myth that Tracy has done a good job his 4 previous seasons.

as to who should replace Tracy. i really would like to see Kevin Kennedy get the job. he should have had the job twice, maybe the third time will be the charm. I think Kennedy is the perfect blend of the dodger way and some of depo's beliefs. i also think covering the dodgers for 5 years give him a great knowledge of the LA roster

71 - there were actually two

71. erickson?

Be wary of Kennedy. I was flipping through his book (aware that his name had come up), and in the chapter about the ten greatest hitters he has seen, he rates Roberto Clemente and Rod Carew over Hank Aaron.

Some great Dodger thoughts Jon, but I do have to ask, there are several things I'm not reading clearly here and since no one else has brought them up.....

"I freely admit that there is more going on in the bowels of Dodger Stadium than I can write about. I can't say how tolerable or intolerable the tug-o'-war has been between DePodesta, who has stood behind his manager publicly, and Tracy, who has implied through his comments that the team woes are based entirely on the personnel. (Comparing the deference they show each other, you'd think DePodesta worked for Tracy.)"

Does this mean that you have intimate knowledge of what is going on deep in the bowels of the stadium that your not fully sharing? That, your not allowed to write about it and that you can't describe how intolerable the tug of war really is, because your not allowed to?

All of this can be interpreted as you seeing these events first hand. Would this be correct?

i would also like to add that the argument that the players repect Tracy is a complete myth. No one in that club house respects Tracy

Jason Phillips is a piece of garbage.

Jason Phillips may or may not be a lot of things, but I think calling him a piece of garbage is going a little too far.

Yes, he shouldn't be playing first base on a regular basis. He is a decent catcher (not great) and I would take him as option 2 (or 1a) over the Mayne's and Bako's of the world.

74 - what team did erickson play for and who was the other player who one some sort of an award that year

Hatred for Hee-Seop Choi? Hatred? As my father often told me, "hate" is a very strong word.

I sincerely doubt that Jim Tracy has any animus toward Hee-Seop Choi. He might not think he is a very good player. But if he actually, sincerely hated him, he would have told DePodesta to get rid of him.

Tracy starts Choi. He doesn't start him a lot. But he starts him at times.

Saying that Jim Tracy has hatred for Hee-Seop Choi is far more inflammatory than what the situation really is.

I would also like to interject that the guy who should have been the Dodger manager is down in Anaheim....

75 - ouch. and i think he likes garrett anderson

77. i think this is what jon is talking about with regards to low-value comments that can't be backed up. it's nothing more than bloviation. gasoline meant to ignite.

now, how exactly do you know that "nobody in the club house respects tracy"?

Phillips is worth it merely to have Ishii off the roster. He's a perfectly decent backup catcher... it's not his fault his manager has decided he should be the #1 or #2 option at first regardless of all other considerations.

77 That's easy to say, but I doubt it's true. In any case, seems like a statement like that needs some sort of proof.

72 - an example of a post much stronger on the arguments against Tracy than for a specific replacement, Kevin Kennedy

"He should have had the job twice"

Why?

"I think Kennedy is the perfect blend of the dodger way and some of depo's beliefs."

Why?

"I also think covering the dodgers for 5 years give him a great knowledge of the LA roster."

Why? Bill Plaschke has covered the Dodgers for much longer.

As this team rockets toward 90 losses, there's enough blame to go around (ownership to cheap? irrational exuberance by the GM? inflexible manager? injuries? team just plain not very good?).

But while Tracy has managed very poorly this year, my question is WHY HERSHISER?

While we all want to feel comfortable with a familiar name from the successful past;

1) What are Orel's qualifications to manage the Dodgers? The Texas pitching staff remains mediocre, and the team a non contender;

2)Has he ever managed before? To my knowledge, not even in Winter League.

3)Would he be comfortable with DePodesta's beliefs in putting together and managing a roster? (Assuming that DePo survives 90 losses with his GM powers intact.)

4)If the goal is to hire a familiar face from '88 why would Orel be better than Gibson, Hatcher, Shelby, or other members of that team who are MLB coaches?

with tracy as the manager, i find myself rooting against certain players on the team, the most recent is robles.
why? because i know if they do good in tracy's eyes they will always be in the lineup no matter what, instead of somebody who is better.
and i hate to have to root against any dodger player.
the reason i root against a player such as robles and izturis is because he or they are not a complete player ( no slg, which means no ops).
i want guys in the lineup with high obp and slg which equal high ops.

76 -

"Does this mean that you have intimate knowledge of what is going on deep in the bowels of the stadium that your not fully sharing? That, your not allowed to write about it and that you can't describe how intolerable the tug of war really is, because your not allowed to?

All of this can be interpreted as you seeing these events first hand. Would this be correct?"

No, no and no.

Thanks! :)

You do have to admit that it could have been read that way, no?

here are some people who want to manage (its not like i want them)

1. Jim Leyland, who has the most instinctive calls for who to bring in in what situation. he has tons of experience but might not dig the west coast

2. Grady Little... no idea what to say about him

3. I think Charlie Manuel signed a one year contract last season so he might be a free agent.

4. Francona's assistant

87

Such an attitude is not exactly beneficial to one's mental health. You root for failure so someone else will fail even though overall you want that same team to succeed?

It's just not logical.

86 I believe the Texas pitching improved a good point in team ERA after Orel took over. Sure they still aren't very good, but they're better. This year's problems stem from all the early injuries to the pen

89 - I suppose, but would it mean anything?

The point of the post is to have perspective, and the point of the paragraph you excerpted was to show that most of us talking about Tracy and DePodesta can't possibly claim to know everything there is to know.

Even if I saw something firsthand, it wouldn't matter in this context.

79 - since nobody seems to care it is erickson with the twins (led league in wins) and alvarez with the white sox (ROY)

I think some of the Robles-hatred is like the Phillips-hatred. Robles is a great bench player and spot-starter. He can play three infield positions (decently well), knows how to take pitches and work an at-bat, gets walks, and hits reasonably well (but with no power).

91-- i don't think you understand what i'm saying,not so someone else would fail, its so someone better gets the chance to start over robles such as perez.
i've rooted against robles so perez would get the starting job instead of robles.
not so someone else would fail, where did you get that idea.

Wilson Alvarez was not Rookie of the Year in 1991 and received no votes for the award either.

Chuck Knoblauch was the AL ROY in 1991.

97 - 1992 not 1991... alvarez did not play in 1991

96 But by rooting against Robles, aren't you rooting for his failure?

I don't think it's a one-to-one correlation: Robles could fail until the cows come home, that doesn't mean Perez will start at shortshop.

I'll admit if we enter next season with a bench of Werth/Cruz, Phillips, Robles, Aybar, Saenz, and Ledee, I will have absolutely no probelms with it. If some starters go down and the bench become starters, I still won't complain. However, if other players are becnhed regularly for them to play, I won't be as happy (the latter 2 are good platoon players). I agree completely with Telemachos in 95

95-- exactly except phillips is just flat out bad, robles is a bench player ONLY.
phillips SHOULD NOT EVEN BE ON THE TEAM.

101 - i like phillips solely because we got him for kaz ishii... i had a dream we got david wright for kaz ishii and scott erickson.

101 - Phillips is currently, at the very worst, the No. 3 catcher in the Dodger organization. Of course he should still be on the team. He should just be used properly.

99-- you're right, and thats why I HATE WITH ALL MY GUTS TRACY.

i think depo should let saenz go so JT has to play Choi a little more

105-- and see here we go, lets get rid of a good player so tracy can play the better player, why not get rid of the cancer THAT IS CALLED JIM TRACY.

alvarez was not ROY, but hedid set a record

78. complete joke. Phillips is not really a piece of garbage, just not a very good ball player.

80. he does hate Choi. Not as a human being but as a ball player. i mean what other reason does he have for not playing him.

85. Not trying to make an argument for Kennedy as much as making an argument against Tracy. But Kennedy should have been hired when the Dodgers hired Davey Johnson and basically paid him for 2 seasons of playing golf until almost 4. And after they fired Davey Johnson they should have hired Kennedy again. The dodger way thing, i just like the fact that Kennedy was in the organization and understands the tradition. Plus i think he is a great manager. I do belive he has gotten teams into the playoffs twice as often as Tracy (joke)

88- anyone who has been around the stadium or spoken to any of the players knows that most of the vets have little or no respect for Tracy. It should just be left at that. And yes i do have intimate knowledge both direct and indirect

106 - well fireing JT is the good option. my suggestion was more out of frustration then being logical

109-- ok sorry

86: As I stated above, the case for Hershiser, while admittedly thin, is as follows: He's a guy whose own career will start him with the benefit of the doubt from the players. He's a guy who has worked for several years with Buck Showalter, one of the few managers who seems to "get it" when it comes to sabermetrics. Now, whether Orel buys into that or not we don't know, but at least he's been exposed to it a bunch, unlike most plausible candidates. While he's never managed, he has coached, and most perceive him has having done a good job in a bad situation (the Ballpark is a hitter's haven). And if anyone can help our pitchers (probably the biggest disappointment this season) to focus, bear down, whatever (Lowe, Weaver, Perez, bullpen, even Penny who gets rocked now and then) it's someone with Hershiser's rep and skills.

And finally, not a reason to hire him, but a nice bonus, is that he'd come in with the goodwill of the media and the fans.

What DePo would have to figure out is whether he believes in Showalter's way, or whether he'd be just like Scioscia, micromanaging the team into unnecessary outs every other inning.

Probably even more likely would be someone completely off our radar - a minor-league manager who is "enlightened." With luck, the reason DePo has let Tracy ride out the season is that he is taking his time finding someone like that.

110 - eh no problem... i am right there with you about JT. i just want to manage the club for a day

111 - aha! showalter will not be with texas next year so maybe he could pay LA a visit! i forgot about him

108 - So you missed the entire first half of my post this morning, I guess.

Or, you really believe that Kevin Kennedy's familiarity with "the Dodger way" and "tradition" is reason enough that he should be hired?

I don't know why anyone would think that a traditional Dodger would manage the team much differently from the way Tracy did.

angels fans do not like rob neyer thanks to rob listing three angels in the top 10 overpaid with a couple borderlines! (erstad, anderson, and finley... rob also says that chone figgins and orlando cabrera could be up there too!)

I think Showalter's track record is decidedly mixed. He has said that he doesn't bunt much (I think the Rangers have fewer than 10 this year) is because:
1) his players aren't very good at it
2) his team is likely to score a lot of runs anyway and one run is not particularly meaningful in Arlington

If Simers calls Tracy "The Micro-Manager", I can't imagine what nickname he would give to Showalter. He's one of the most controlling managers in the history of baseball.

72 - i recall listening to kevin kennedy a little while back on xm and someone asked him about becoming the dodger manager and he responded with something like... after the last time the dodgers rejected him, he wanted to find a job with more security and that's why he got into radio...

listening to him almost every day though, i'd think he'd make a good manager for the dodgers too. you can hear his passion for the dodgers whenever he talks about them and whenever his show jumps into games, his comments on stupid managerial decisions always crack me up and he's usually right.

108, 114 - recall Alston effectively benched Sandy Koufax through two seasons, and most of a third. That's the "Dodger Way"!

i want somebody who requires the other defense to put on the shift, so that he can bunt into it! i heard giambi did it a couple days ago but i did not see the highlights. just wishful thinking (dont take this post seriously)

I don't know why anyone would think that a traditional Dodger would manage the team much differently from the way Tracy did.

Correct.

114- missed the 1st part of your post. just wanted to jump on the fire Tracy bandwaggon.

loyd mcclendon was fired today (i know nothing about him except he looks hilarious when he argues)

I also liked the past tense, like Tracy had already been fired, even though he'll likely be there for the next decade.

Kevin Kennedy record
Year League Team Age G W L WP Finish
1993 AL West Texas 38 162 86 76 .531 2
1994 AL West Texas 39 114 52 62 .456 1

1995 AL East BostonRS 40 144 86 58 .597 1
1996 AL East BostonRS 41 162 85 77 .525 3

BostonRS 306 171 135 .559
Texas 276 138 138 .500
TOTAL 582 309 273 .531

Note how the 94 al west compares to the 05 nl west

124 -- Tracy has records as good as those.

121 - I guess that says it all.

123 - LOL, that was unintentional.

Lloyd McClendon is now available.

124 - That year (1994) was the strike year.

And, by the way, Jon, thanks for the comparison to T.J. Simers. I have to go bathe now...for the next decade.

pittsburgh has such a bad team that there is no way to tell if he has good lineups or not

i bet jim leyland is hired buy pittsburgh

129 - you say that like bathing's a bad thing :)

129 - LOL

132- LOL

1993 Texas Rangers
86-76, Finished 2nd in AL Western Division
View League Standings and Leaders
Scored 835 runs, Allowed 751 runs. Pythagorean W-L: 89-73
Managed by Kevin Kennedy

1994 Texas Rangers
52-62, Finished 1st in AL Western Division
View League Standings and Leaders
Scored 613 runs, Allowed 697 runs. Pythagorean W-L: 50-64
Managed by Kevin Kennedy

1995 Boston Red Sox
86-58, Finished 1st in AL Eastern Division
View League Standings and Leaders
Scored 791 runs, Allowed 698 runs. Pythagorean W-L: 80-64
Managed by Kevin Kennedy

1996 Boston Red Sox
85-77, Finished 3rd in AL Eastern Division
View League Standings and Leaders
Scored 928 runs, Allowed 921 runs. Pythagorean W-L: 82-80
Managed by Kevin Kennedy

check the team stats for the 95 sox on baseballrefrence.com i know that there are diffrent factors such as players, ballpark ect but that looks alot diffrent then a traditional dodger managed team

How can one carry on an all-consuming jeremiad AND have time to bathe?

One thing we've circled around is what, exactly does a manager do. Manager sets lineups and makes in-game decisions. These are easy to see and pretty easy for outsiders to judge, criticize, etc. But what else?

As much as there are various X-ball schools of thought, baseball is not like football or even basketball where the coaching staff really designs a thorough offensive and defensive strategy that governs play. So what else does the manager do? Some possibilities:

1. Participate in personnel decisions.
2. Deal with personality and clubhouse issues that come up over a long long season.
3. Deal with individual psyches/personalities -- e.g. build up confidence, motivate players.
4. Teach the game -- hitting the cutoff man, knowing what base to throw to, cover.
5. Teaching physical skills like hitting, pitching, bunting.
6. In game actions other than playcalling/substitions -- e.g. sharing info about opposing players/opposing team tendencies, predicting what opposing team is likely to do in a particulra sitation. Cheerleading/keeping team's head in the game (for example, when they fall behind early).

This is a hurried and poorly written list, but what else should be on it -- it seems like it would be useful to know what a manager is supposed to do before one can figure out who the manager should be.

137 - That might be why Hugh Hefner took to wearing pajamas all day.

That might have been a hurried list, but not poorly written.

The Dodgers are a mess from the top to the bottom.

McCourt---What type of person buys one of the foundations of baseball, full of tradition, and turns it on its head?

He hired a rookie GM who had no experience and no credentials other than some degree that has nothing to do with baseball.

He changes Dodger Stadium into an advertising machine diverting the attention from what is going on in the field.

He brings in synthetic music ruining the old tradition of the Dodger Stadium.

Ross Porter...speaks for itself.

Obviously McCourt does not care about Dodger tradition. He has his own visions...

What about how poorly the new seating was planned? Who is at fault?

DePodesta--- "I didn't exactly breakup a dynasty."

What he did do was to breakup a first team that was several years in the making by Dan Evans. If McCourt had allowed Evans to sign
Vlad Guerrero that team would have been fun to watch. (they were a first place team even without him) The team was coming along...until...DePodesta used his baseball wisdom.

Don't forget the proposed 3-way trade with AZ and NY. It was so one sided that everyone in baseball was laughing at DePodesta.

Tracy---He doesn't have much to work with. But, it is time for him to find out what some of these players can do including Choi.

Do you want to wait another 3 yrs for DePodesta to learn his trade?

141

Others may disagree with some points, but the canned music at the expense of Nancy Bea Hefly on the organ started with the News Corp ownership.

141 - i didnt know jim tracys girlfriend came here! yes i do want to wait another three years for depo to learn his trade, even though it will not take that long. are you suggesting that dan evans was a lot better than DEPO! sure, dan would have some short term success but he does not have the smarts to have long term success! paul depodesta was an assistant GM and a very good one, at that.

If "everyone in baseball" is laughing at you, that is a sure sign that you're doing something right.

141 - although i agree with the thoughts about the music and the ads

Don't usually think of Hefner as pressing a jeremiad, but I guess it works.

141 Others know the facts better than I, but I don't think it's accurate to say that Evans wanted to sign Guerrero but McCourt wouldn't let him. I could be wrong, but I don't think that's exactly right.

On the 3-way deal, I don't get it. The reported trade -- if the reports were accurate -- was widely seen as a bad bad deal. But DePodesta didn't do that deal. Isn't that basically a plus for him, or at least an indicator that he learns rather more quickly than 3 yrs? Maybe he agreed to something then reflected and thought it was a bad idea, or maybe he was trying to work out something further but could not (none of which I think the public knows for sure). But to me it shows a decent amount of personal strength to do a big messy public about face on something like that, knowing folks will howl all around.

"no experience and no credentials other than some degree that has nothing to do with baseball."

False.

"It was so one sided that everyone in baseball was laughing at DePodesta."

False.

In the end, though, is the point of 141 - fire everybody?

115 - there are some Angels fans who do not like Rob Neyer. As it turns out, Neyer has actually been caught in the past with his pants down, exposing the dangling appendage of his anti-Angel lust to the sabermetric breeze for all to point and laugh at:

http://tinyurl.com/buajk

However, his most recent column berating the three salarymen for their fundamental failures is quite on the mark.

141
"no experience and no credentials"

you mean besides being Assistant General Manager for a perennial pennant-winner for several years? how does that not count? that sounds like the ultimate preparation to be a first-time general manager.

147 - he wants to fire everyone except Jim Tracy, because they need money for the honeymoon

It's only a matter of time before someone starts a blog entitled "Dodgers delenda est"

144 - Dave Littlefield is much comforted. Care for a smoke, Steve?

Jon

the problem is there is really no way to argue who should manage the dodgers. if i say Kevin Kennedy is a great baseball man, very knowledgeable. how do i really know that? I'm sure Jim Tracy is a baseball man as well. I don't know if Kevin Kennedy is going to have the palyers respect. I never followed the ranger or his sox teams close enough to know how well he manages.

Because the thing is unless you follow the DOdgers every single day, Jim Tracy from the outside looks like a very good manager. His win/loss has always been higher then his Pythagorean w/l record. But if you follow the dodgers closely like we all do here, youo realize his decisions leave alot to be desired.

I've heard Kennedy on radio and seen him on tv. He seems to know alot about baseball. Maybe I like him because many of the decisions he says he would make or made i agree with. maybe i dislike Tracy because i don't agree with many of his decisions. how knows.

the thing about Kennedy though is that he has passion about the dodgers. passion counts for alot. when the Trojans hired Pete Carroll people flipped. I wanted mike reily. Most wanted erikson/bellotti. Then i heard the passion Carroll spoke with. how much he wanted the job. i thought right there this guy is a guy people are gonna wanna play for.
Then 1 day i heard Darryl Rideaux say he would run through a wall for carroll. Could you imagine any dodger ever saying they would run through a wall for Tracy?

BTW i think it would be cool for the Dodgers to have a moustached manger like kennedy. I don't belive the dodgers have ever had a manager with a moustache

148 - that is why i love rob neyer in a non sexual or weird way

Oh, the distortions and hand-wringing of the FJT Crowd! Oh Wail! Oh Gnash!

141. So in your complaints about Depo not breaking up a dynasty you include the speculation of what could have been if EVANS had been able to sign Vlad. I'm sorry, but here I thought DePodesta was dealing with what he had, not what might have been before he even got to LA.
How exactly was this team coming along with Evans? I would have liked to have seen him get a chance to be the GM after being hamstrung by Malone's contracts and actually executing a vision, but you move on, and I would like to see the completed vision of at least one GM who isn't a complete hack instead of just firing another one and starting all over again.
Also, I thought that DePodesta was a scout before he worked for the A's. Thanks for clearing that up for me and letting me know that he has had no baseball experience.

153 - all that means is that, after marrying a streetwalker and finding her virtues less-than-virtuous, you are still willing to try out another one at the altar. The problem is the process, not the girl.

Of course Kevin Kennedy sounds passionate on TV, that's his job. He does well on TV because he communicates well and has a personality. People like that. Jim Tracy would not be a suitable replacement for Kevin Kennedy on Fox. But that doesn't mean that Kevin Kennedy would be a good replacement for Jim Tracy necessarily.

And Cesar Izturis appears to be Venezuelan for Jack Wilson.

159 - cesar actually walks more thank Jack Wilson and is slightly faster

141 Looking through the archives (which allowed me to enjoy this line again: . . . On the other hand, there definitely have been some "As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly" disappointments.) it seems like it was basically McCourt quashing Evans efforts to sign Guerrero, although my archive search wasn't complete and also it's pretty clear mlb leadership made some very uncomfortable noises that were the source (reasonably or not) of McCourt's concern.

yeah, i always thought it was MLB who tied mccourt's hands on guerrero, and then the window closed.

151 - isn't that a Giants blog?

162 - Fallout thinks we should fire the MLB

Wasn't the story that Guerrero had a contract and had agreed to it and was flying to LA then MLB killed it?

153 DePo is interesting when it comes to signing mustaches. Kent has been far better than expected, whereas Valentin has been far worse. So I guess Kennedy would fit into one of those extremes.

After some thought, mustache probably isn't a good reason for signing someone...

161 - absolutely:

http://www.scareduck.com/gruntle/mccourt.html#011204

I stand corrected.

162. The extent to which MLB tied McCourt's hands in signing Vlad depends on your point of view, if you don't like McCourt, it was a suggestion by Bud Selig and nothing more. If you think McCourt is okay, then there was an implication that the purchase would be difficult to get owner approval if they saw McCourt as someone willing to spend money. The truth is, unless you're firmly on one side of the other you'll never "know"

Re: McCourt-Guererro

The details are murky. The one thing that I think is safe to say is that a different owner would have made the signing happen. Whether or not MLB tied McCourt's hands or McCourt tied his own is a he said-he said debate.

I think my argument at the time, and I guess I stick with it, is that MLB had no business blessing an owner who wouldn't or couldn't sign Guerrero in that situation, and/or McCourt had no business buying the team if he couldn't make the Guerrero signing happen.

In other words, I don't really care who was the original sinner - it all works out to the same answer.

who cares the point is we dont have guerrero and the next chance to sign him will be when his value is dirt

Um, continuing my rigorous program of getting no work at all done this afternoon, did I really just read at ESPN.com that Barry Bonds punched an unnamed Giant player in the jaw while the two were arguing in the clubhouse this past June?

Better get DePodesta to apologize quick.

171 - assuming he is washed up by then, but he could be like clemens and bonds

From the press notes are some pieces of hugely valuable information. Wunsch and Gagne have been placed on the 60 day DL for... Jason Grabowski and Brian Myrow! While both had long been assumed and hinted at, they are now on the roster. Great news, we will now dominate the NL West and go on some monstrous winning streak. And Tracy gets 2 more players to throw in front of Choi

Myrow: .282/.402/.547 in 393 ABs for Vegas
Grabowski: .309/.408/.508 in 181 ABs for Vegas, we all know of his contributions for the Dodgers this year

172 - give me a link

Re Guerrero -- wasn't trying to reopen that debate, just wanted to clear the air with Fallout since I'd wondered if he had the facts right.

175 sorry -- http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2152696

176 - i will be happy as long as the guerrero talk stops now... from that one post i believe fallout has lost a lot of credibility

177 - i wasnt angry just anxious

177 - so barry punched somebody and then said he had no problem with him... ever. i always thought he was an idiot, but...

174 Anyone care to offer odds on either Grabowski or Edwards starting tonight? Or (shudder) both?

In my opinion this is for the most part a good discussion about Tracy. I am an older Dodger fan than most. One of the reasons I am a Dodger fan is because of the stability that has charactarized this franchise for the most part. Sadly, that stability seems mostly in the past.

I remember Walt Alston who I liked and Tommy LaSorda who for the most part I did not. I never thought that LaSorda should be fired even though I did not particularly like him. Stability can be a greater value than constantly looking for the "best" person to perform a job. Chemistry is a term that is sneered at here by many people; I hope that stability is not held in such contempt.

Stability in and of itself is not my ideal. I don't want to keep people like Kevin Malone in their job simply because they have the job. But the reflexive desire to fire the manager whomever he may be just because of the record of the team or because of a disagreement with his managerial strategy is foolish in the extreme.

Can Tracy bring along young talent? I would say for the most part the answer to that question is yes. Does Tracy get respect from his players? Again, from what I understand the answer to that question is yes. If the answers to those questions are no (or become no) or if Tracy becomes openly antagonistic to management say in the way Lou Piniella did in his last years in Seattle, then I think the Dodgers should look elsewhere for a manager. I see no reason to fire Jim Tracy at this time.

Stan from Tacoma

181 - o god

Hey, I linked the ESPN.com, Bonds punch out story, last night and got no nibbles! People only expect esoterica out of me.

A Bay Area paper believes that the likely opponent for Bonds is current Angels reliever Jason Christiansen.

143-Yes I'm saying that Evans was better than DePodesta. In your own words he had success. He built a first place team that was dismantled and replaced with this mess.

185 Yet the very simple fact is that Depo's without Depo's acquisitions, there would be no NL West flag last year. Bradley and Finley were huge contributors to the team. Give credit where credit is due.

185 A first place with Bubba Trammell in left...he only built some of it...

156.--Penarol1916
Evans had the team in first place

170.--Jon Weisman--I agree.

186.-Telemachos He only had to make those moves because of his other trades.

189 - so you would rather have juan encarnacion and guillermo mota and paul lo duca back here? you make no sense

186 - That certainly doesn't apply to Bradley for obvious reasons- that trade was his first significant move. And no, he didn't have to get Finley, either. He could have kept Roberts.

190.-HomeDePo Who was catching after LoDuca
was traded?

Another columnist weighs in on the Character War:

http://tinyurl.com/d5ues

192 - alright brent mayne was not so good. but now he has russ martin and navarro who are much better than mayne and lo duca. that is why he traded lo duca.

191 - without looking, I would guess that, even with the injuries, Roberts has been the more productive player this year.

188. When was a solely Evans built team in first place? Do you honestly think that the team would have been in first place without Bradley?

192 - also, lo duca slumped terribly after the trade

189 He made the Bradley due to other trades? Losing Steve Colyer, Jolbert Cabrera, and Jason Frasor were huge losses, good thing he got Bradley to fix those mistakes.

Or Bradley was acquired because we had an OF and 1B of Encarnacion, Roberts, Green and Ventura/Trammell

196.-Penarol1916 Under the circumstances who wouldn't have made that trade. An established center fielder who hit .300 for a minor leaguer.

199 Evans. No way he would trade Gutierrez, that's why we didn't have anything to begin with

191 But Jon, don't you have to look at specific contributions (both by GM and player)? Otherwise it boils down to who we each like personally. Depo, not Evans signed Bradley, who was a big contributor to the 2004 team. And in all likelihood Evans would never have made the trade, since it involved giving up a name prospect.

And, without Finley I think it's hard to argue that the Dodgers would've won the division. Roberts (especially for the Dodgers) was a good base-stealer, but had been habitually injured the whole year and his offensive statistics weren't anything to overtly praise (aside from his steals, of course).

199 - roberts hit .253 for us, not .300.

2004 was the first year that I simply looked at the roster and said "well, crap, no chance at all this year, no amount of luck will do it"

We took a historically bad offense, and what did we do? Replace Jeromy Burnitz with Juan Encarnacion. Yeah, that'll get it done. Oh, and the pitching staff got worse too.

Bradley then came in and gave me a glimmer of hope. "You mean we don't have to hit Beltre 3rd and Izturis 2nd?". Oh, and then he somehow hit 48 home runs. And Izturis wasn't completely worthless.

Evans had a horrible, horrible team that needed a complete overhaul, DePodesta did what was necassary.

Fun stat to trot out
Post season at bats by heart and soul Paul LoDuca: 0

Number of teams that have made the playoffs or dramatically improved after adding noted cancer Jose Guillen: 3 in the last three years.

Jose Guillen: Proven winner.

Nice write-up today and it looks like an interesting set of posts to read when I get the time. I drove down to LA today. Had to apply for my travel Visa at the Chinese Consulate. Traffic sucked, and the directions from Yahoo Maps was off and I ended up getting lost in Little Armenia. I didn't even know there was a Little Armenia. After I found the Consulate and turned in the paper work I ended up driving by the stadium on the way to the Los Angeles Ikea of Burbank. I had to roll up the windows as I drove by the stadium, there was an awful stench coming from Chavez Ravine. The sports radio hacks were talking about the possibility of Bonds returning tonight. If he can't field he would be limited to pinch hitting, and if he pinch hits he surely wouldn't do so with an open base. Look forward to reading some of the thread.
vr, Xei

194. HomeDePo He didn't have Navarro. In fact he didn't have any big league catchers
other than Mayne. Trading La Duca left a big hole.

202 He was referring to Bradley, saying that Evans would have acquired him just as DePo did

206 - ooo. but i dont think evans would have made the trade

202. HomeDePo
199 - roberts hit .253 for us, not .300.

I was speaking of Bradley.

200 is correct. He wouldn't trade Mota at his peak either.

205 - a big whole and money. lo duca is pretty overpaid and, as i mentioned before, he struggled more than brent mayne after the trade

Off topic favor askin: A neighbor, foolishly thinking I know stuff about baseball, has asked me how long John "channeling Roger Clemens" Patterson is under the Nationals' control. I have no idea, but I know this is readily knowable. If someone knows, feel free to tell me, but if someone would like to teach me how to how to fish, I'd be most obliged.

mlb.com stats shows he was drafted in 1996, and has played in a few major league games every season since 2002.

cheers.

211 actually, he appears to have pitched a pretty full season last year.

195 - We were talking specifically about 2004 in this case, though.

201 - My 191 wasn't directed at your 186. That was a mistake. It was directed at 189. Sorry. Sigh.

Evans was ok, by the way. Nothing special. The guy who traded for Burnitz and signed Fred McGriff isn't going to have any statues built for him, but he did begin the minor league rebuilding process and did very little (or no) long-term harm. He likely could have built 83-79 teams ad infinitum. Again, the Gerald Ford of Dodger history. Righted the ship after the disaster that came before, will likely be forgotten by history.

The ESPN.com page for John Patterson says he has 3 years of MLB experience coming into this season. So he should be eligible for arbitration next year. He makes $322,000 this year.

Presumably next year he will make more.

215 Thanks Bob. He'll be a tricky arbitration case. highly touted prospect, long minor league wanderings, a few OK years in the majors, then Bam! he's Clemens.

However, with Bowden at the helm, Patterson could be available for the right player. He's not available for a long time though, I have him at 4 more years until free agency (I being mlb4u.com which is a great site for contracts in general)

To the surprise of few who have met me, I've been to the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Museum.

TWICE!

22

maybe this has already been mentioned, but tom kelly shares some of the same tracy traits we don't care for.

it was tom kelly who refused to play todd walker and david ortiz full time. he also had mientkiewicz saying he would rather play in aaa ball than come back to the twins and play for kelly. he would be a good manager for a team like the pirates which are in a situation similar to the twins of the late 90s. i don't think he would play well in la.

One might think that refusing to play David Ortiz, one of the best left handed bats in the game, would be a firing offense. I don't think that Tracy has ever done anything quite so bad.

Does Xeifrank want Jim Tracy gone before the next season begins? Yes! Does I think he is the worst manager in MLB? I cannot answer this question with 100% confidence, but I bet there are many that are worse than him. Scoscia is a candidate. But I don't believe that Tracy's competence should measured by comparing him to other managers. Just because other teams have what I believe to be bad managers, doesn't mean that it is Ok if we have one too... Do I know of a good replacement? No, of course not. It may be fun to speculate a replacement, but other than for giggles and laughs there is no point in speculating a replacement. Instead I look to DePodesta and the interview process that I would like to take place. From the answers to the interview questions that I would like to see, I hope he makes his replacement decision from. I would like him to ask the following questions and have the correct answer(s) weight heavily in the selection process. I would base a decision on how well I liked answers to the following 2 questions. Perhaps later I may think of more questions... vr, Xei

1. Do you know anything about sabermetrics? If not, are you willing to study and learn it? If so, tell me what you know.

2. Would you have any trouble managing the Dodgers using sabermetric principles? Which would include choosing who starts, and in game strategies.

I've seen people here make references on Lowe blaming the defense. (Well, maybe just a few people, and they don't seem to be here right now. But I still want to ask.) When did Lowe do that? In fact, Lowe often does the contrary in the press.

Here's a quote in the LA Times on yesterday's game:

"It's a team game," Lowe said. "[Valentin] did not let that ball go through his legs to see how far it would go. Those things happen. I take responsibility for allowing the sacrifice fly on an 0-2 count."

i would ask a manager to give me a tentative lineup of the team. see how it looks, and then make a decision on hiring him. (ofcourse there would be some questions asked but this would be very important.)

As someone who likes both Evans and DePodesta, while noting that neither was nor is perfect, I have no interest in pitting them against each other. Evans the Gerald Ford of the Dodgers? Hardly -- provided certain things come to pass in the future. Evans will definitely enjoy stature in Dodger history WAY out of proportion to his two years of service -- perhaps even being recognized as a hero -- IF the minor league revitalization he launched produces home-grown talent that helps the Dodgers a great deal at the major league level years after his departure. And I do believe that is going to happen. Just by hiring Logan White, and basically committing our organization to a plan of doing what we can in the meantime but also waiting patiently for the farm to save us (a plan that DePodesta is following like he were Evans' minion), Evans may have outright saved the Dodgers from ruin, in the wake of the Malone disaster. Sounds like a hero to me.

222 Tracy has blamed the defense when Lowe pitches, but I don't remember Lowe doing it. He seems to understand that he's a sinkerball pitcher, which increases the chance of errors, and thus unearned runs

224 He does have that going for him. He was an excellent GM as far as the minors, but just couldn't do anything with the major league team.

I will say what I have been saying on the Dodger Board forever...we should hire Ron Washington. He knows DePo well and he knows what type of system DePo likes and he would definitely listen to his reasonings. Every player who has played on the A's recently loves the guy. Eric Chavez gave him one of his gold gloves and Jason Giambi just gave him $20,000 to help Ron who has to find a way to take care of 27 members of his family (Ron and his family lived in New Orleans and lost everything). Plus Washington made everyone on the A's a better player. He has helped teach all of them how to become better hitters and he is great at teaching defense. People forget but Eric Chavez's defense was always considered his weakness and could become a problem in the majors. Well Washington worked with him everyday and now hes one of the best around. He also helped turn Dan Johnson into a pretty good 1st baseman and this was in a couple of weeks of time (he could be a great help to someone like Antonio Perez).

178. HomeDePo Please explain...

The Vero Beach game has started. Pilkington is starting for Vero. The starters if anyone is interested:

Raglani LF
Rohan 2B
Dewitt 3B
Kemp RF
Dunlap 1B
Bellorin, E C
Paul DH
Bruce SS
Hoffmann CF

Guess Denker's struggles prevented him from starting. Scott Elbert has been called up for the layoffs, so he may pitch (or he may start, although I'd guess he relieves)

If you want to listen to it:
http://web.servicebureau.net/conf/meta?i=1112609479&c=14667&m=was&u=/w.xsl

227- Hee Seop Choi -- pickin' machine!

I just logged on and have only read through a sampling of the comments. (standard disclaimer).

FWIW, here's where I stand on Tracy. I am utterly disturbed by both his performance and attitude this year. The idea that he's trying to get himself fired is not without credence.

But I like to think of myself as a realist, and I think the best position for a realist to take is that Tracy gets a pass for this year for several reasons:

1. credit for past performance especially 2004
2. Given the turmoil that would ensue, I'm not sure Depo survives. If Dusty Baker is the nightmare scenario for Tracy's replacement, imagine Baker AND Bowden.
3. 2006 is still a transitional year, where I think, we're trying to play with the same key pieces as 05 and see if we can get healthy and win.
4. Injuries.
5. If he really wants out of L.A., he should be a man and quit.

I could go on, but basically, I think Tracy gets a "needs improvement" on his evaluation. If he hands in another stinker like this, you gotta get rid of him.

228 - sorry i was a little harsh, it is just that a lot of the beliefs you said during that first post are unfounded, like saying that DePo should not be a GM. he has a ton of experience. evans was OK. i need to go so i cannot explain anything else.

222 Looking at Hee Sop Choi's first couple major league seasons and thet of David Ortiz, and there isn't much difference. Other than at bats their numbers are close pretty close (K/BB, OPS, etc.)... even in the minors they were similar (check baseball cube). Ortiz didn't explode until he got the chance to play everyday as a 27 year old. I'm not saying Choi will be as good, but he should be given the chance. Plenty of worse players have gotten on full season to prove themselves.

229 Kemp continues to improve his prospect stauts, hit a 3 run homer in the first, 3-0 Dodgers after 1 inning

I'm one of the people who has said that anyone but Tracy would be good at this point, even though it is a bit of a rhetorical exxageration (similar to saying that anywhere is better than a dentist's chair, even though there are truly worse places in the world). And, clearly I can think of worse people to replace Tracy (Dusty Baker comes to mind). I also, don't think that it's an extreme enough statement (especially since it contains a touch of sarcasm) to invalidate any other points I, or others, might make.

Having said that, I think it's important to define what we want in a manager. As, I see it, there are three roles for a manager:

1. To teach and inspire. In other words, to get the most out of the talent he has. This is often described as an intangible aspect of managing. Does it even exist, or does it reflect team success like other intangibles such as chemistry?

2. To impliment management's philosophy, whatever that may be. If it's "moneyball" in Oakland, or "smartball" in Chicago, you need a manager who buys into the philosophy.

3. In game strategy.

I think Tracy has failed miserably at all three of these this season, but he hasn't always failed. In the past, I give him credit for executing role 1 quite well. At times, in the past he clearly got more out of his team than their talent would indicate. It's why I don't think that criticisms of managers such as Mike Scoscia are necessarily fair. He is clearly executing a strategy developed by his general manager, as he has been supplied with many "smallball" type players. In addition to that, he seems to be able to lead his players and get many of them to perform at or above their predicted levels. As such, he can probably be classified as a good manager, as much as I may diagree with his specific strategic approach.

The question is, which of these three roles are most important, and can we find someone who excels at all three? In other words, even if we were to find someone who buys into Depo's philosophy and employs sabermetric strategies is that enough if he his unable to inspire/gain the respect of his players?

233- Exactly. Hee Seop has shown intriguing (and cheap) possibilities, and he's still quite young. I think he -- and the Dodgers -- deserve a full year of his production. I think worst-case scenario you'll get a streaky player who will give you 20-25 homeruns, strike out quite a bit, and walk a decent amount. Even if he doesn't fit into the Dodgers' long term plan (whoever is managing), a full season ups his trade possibilities. For example, despite any defensive short-comings, if he gets a chance to put up offensive numbers, he could be a great DH for an American League team.

I can understand platooning him with Saenz. But at this point in the season, with Olmedo barely able to walk, with older AAA players with less upside (I'm looking at you, Mr. Edwards) getting more and consistent starts, I'm pretty much dumbfounded that he doesn't at least get a couple of spot-starts a week.

Ron Washington has been brought up before, and I'll ask again what I asked then:

Did no one else come away with the impression from Moneyball that Washington did not embrace Beane's philosophy?

I'm not a Choi fan but I agree that he should play. The Dodgers need to find out if he can hit. They have nothing to lose at this point.

I seem to recall that Rob Neyer indicated that Larry Dierker (former Astro manager and current announcer) was open to saber principles and had an open mind about certain strategies. Dierker wrote a book about managing (I think called "It's Not Rocket Science") so one could go read it and see if that's so (though I'm too lazy to do that myself). If so, I would nominate him, though I have no other evidence that he would make a good manager and just some vague recollection of Neyer saying something like that.

237 I did get that impression, at least to some degree. He may not be the super SABR manager a lot of us want, but he has a lot of other good qualities. It's really hard to imagine how he would manage, guess there's only one way to find out. Either way, Moneyball convinced me he's a good coach (whether or not that's true)

As someone who likes both Evans and DePodesta, while noting that neither was nor is perfect, I have no interest in pitting them against each other.

That's what I was trying to say, you said it better than I did, and you are right. Perhaps it would be fairer to say that "At worst, Dan Evans would be the Gerald Ford of the Dodgers?"

239 Amazon tells me it's This Ain't Brain Surgery. The summary of it is more a biography centered around his brain seizure during a game, and how it affected his life. That said, I'm sure it would supply some insigtht if anyone wants to read it and summarize it

232.--HomeDePo
Hardly unfounded. I gave some reasons for my opinion. You just disagree. "ton of experience"? Where was he a GM? I read that someone said that DePodesta was a scout for 3 yrs. I have met several scouts in my time, none could be a GM.(in my opinion) :)

237 I definitely got that from reading the book, but also, (a) a few years have passed since then and Washington is still working for Oakland, and (b) I wonder the extent to which Lewis used Washington as a rhetorical device, and kind of played up his more old school coach tendencies.

237-
When that book was written, the A's were about waiting for home runs and they had a bunch of slow guys and people who were not great defenders and Washington did not really agree with that type of team but he did his job by improving them as much as he could. The A's are now built on defense and not striking out (of course with pitching) and that suits Washington more, but it never changed the way he handled how he worked with the players. He is a good coach or else the A's would have let him go plenty of times because he has been a free agent but they always gave him more money to come back. Art Howe for instance was let go because Beane knew he was expendable, Washington was not. Washington knows how to get the best out of players and he knows how to work with the personnel he has got. That is something Tracy does not do. I think the communication between DePo and Washington would be far greater than with Tracy.

I decided to not be so lazy and I found a link which talks about Dierker's openness to sabermetric thought http://www.blissfulknowledge.com/archives/000572.html
What's kind of interesting is that I found another link that talked about the fact that it may not be smart to have a manager that is just a puppet for the GM. That way the manager can play good cop and say to the player "yeah, I know the GM's a dick, but he decides our saleries, so let's try and do it his way for a while." The thinking is that the players need someone in their corner and if they dislike what both the GM and manager are doing they have no place to vent or are completely alienated. Interesting thought, but ultimately rubbish I think. Players will go out and perform out of self-interest. Who cares if they play while angry at management.

243 No, very unfounded, in fact. He was an assistant GM, for years, for a perennially successful organization. He was heartily endorsed as the most important staff member by one of the most successful GMs in baseball.

Get real, friend.

243 - He was an assistant general manager in Oakland. If you are going to discount that experience, and limit your general manager possibilities to only those who have previously been GMs, you're going to very much limit your pool of good candidates.

The President of Jefferson Parish:

"So I'm asking Congress, please investigate this now. Take whatever idiot they have at the top of whatever agency and give me a better idiot. Give me a caring idiot. Give me a sensitive idiot. Just don't give me the same idiot."

247. -Icaros
I know that this gets confusing but the "unfounded" belonged to a different thought. It was the "ton of experience" that I was questioning.

249 Is this what you're asking of Depo?

248. Jon Weisman
True. But they do not have a ton of experience".

246. Yes, I agree it's rubbish.
vr, Xei

250 Whatever, I'm not getting into an argument using a measure of weight (ton) as applied to an abstract principle like experience.

All GMs have to get their first job somewhere. In your initial post, you said:

He hired a rookie GM who had no experience and no credentials other than some degree that has nothing to do with baseball.

That statement is as wrong as women's underwear on John Goodman.

252 - I wasn't responding to that. I was responding to your comment about DePodesta being a scout, as if that encapsulated his qualifications, and your opening salvo in 141 that DePodesta had "no experience and no credentials."

New game thread is open, by the way.

Nobody told me about the baseball degree.

255. Jon Weisman
"no experience" as a GM. "no credentials"-maybe an exaggeration. But,less than most.

249. Usually the guy calling everyone else an idiot is the biggest one. vr, Xei

218 - Looking forward to having you elaborate on that Saturday, Bob!

#182-I feel you brother,I've been a Dodger fan since the Alston years myself and am also somewhat taken aback with the team being in transition it seems every year lately.
I like the thought of bringing up a guy with Dodger ties.I also liked Alston (although its hard to underacheive with Koufax and Drysdale-not to mention the Davis boys,Wills,etc.)Lasorda frustrated me with player moves.Other than Beltre he refused to develop young talent.It would have been nice to give Konerko a good shot.
I suggest John Shumacker(spelling),the Suns manager.He knows the potential million dollar infield and stud pitching prospects.They can come up and grow together.He can even bring his coaches.Kenny Howell has seemed to handle the pitchers well at J'Ville and Yeager is the kind of feisty old baseball guy to bring tradition amongst the technocrats and business first guys in the new regime.

258 - Fallout, I'm not trying to put you too much on the defensive. It's just that my entire post this morning was about not overreaching in your statements, whatever one's opinion might be. So in that respect your comments stood out even more than usual.

You say DePodesta had fewer credentials than most. Can you tell me that you really have some idea what credentials other GMs have? Can you say with any certainty that there is a correlation between age or credentials and success?

You just seemed in a real hurry to vent, without regard in some respects to the facts.

>>>about not overreaching in your statements>>without regard in some respects to the facts<<<

Hmmm.

Anyway, these are my opinions based on the reasons that I gave.

"There are three things the average man thinks he can do better than anyone else: build a fire, run a hotel, and manage a baseball team." - Rocky Bridges

Or be a GM, I suppose. I like most of what DePo has done. That said, I still have a problem with the Lo Duca trade, not so much because he traded Lo Duca (although I'll admit I fail to see why so many people seem to have such a hate on for Paulie), but because he failed to provide any kind of major league level replacement for him in the middle of a close pennant race. It didn't have to be a star. A Jason Phillips caliber player would've been fine. Just somebody good enough so that opposing pitchers wouldn't be worried about making sure they got our easy eighth hitter out so they wouldn't have to face one of our pitchers with men on base.

To a lesser extent, he did the same thing at third over the winter. Except for Nakamura, none of the guys DePo acquired to replace Beltre have been particularly good at playing the position. Defense may not matter as much as a good offense, but it does matter some.

264 To a lesser extent, he did the same thing at third over the winter. Except for Nakamura, none of the guys DePo acquired to replace Beltre have been particularly good at playing the position. Defense may not matter as much as a good offense, but it does matter some.

This is a fair point. But this is where the competing philosophies give us the worst of both worlds. DePodesta did not give Tracy an all-star caliber defensive first baseman. But he did give him a 3rd baseman who adequate defensively but can hit (Perez). However, Tracy believes in defense first, so he benches the guy who does one thing really well, and instead plays a parade of guys who do nothing really well, in order to minimize the downside defensive risk. If DePo had known that Tracy was going to play his best defensive option, based on fldg % with no attention to range, every time (Robles, I guess, when Izzy was at SS), then he'd have traded Perez for a "real 3rd baseman."

Although it ended up being arguably Depo's worst move, an average season of Valentin at third would've been fine defensively. During the early portion of the season (before he got injured) seemed to indicate that he'd be an acceptable third-baseman... though he wouldn't be the Gold Glove-calibre guy like Beltre.

Oops. Meant "all-star caliber THIRD baseman."

And remember that Depo stated he envisioned Valentin getting some reps at 3rd with Perez getting the rest. I would assume he didn't think Valentin would end up being a starting OF =) I think that falls on the manager.

Good discussion today, though it seems odd to blame Depo for putting together the pieces that helped us win last year, getting us our best pitcher (Penny), and our five best hitters (Kent, Bradley, Drew, Perez, Choi). Did he have a say in bringing Saenz in too?

And what has he lost? An old, expensive, over-rated catcher, an average OFer in Encarnacion, some minor leaguers with little potential, a washed up OFer in Finley, done pitchers in Lima and Nomo. I've only read about 100 of the posts, but what big info am I missing that's enough to say he's not doing his job? Blame for the injuries? Or is Fallout the only one blaming Depo?

He tried, since there was a deal for Charles Johnson that Johnson vetoed. One could argue many things based on this:

1) DePo should have known that Johnson would do that.
2) Charles Johnson is not a major league caliber catcher (no disagreement here, though a major leagues that has room for Dan Kolb should have room for Charles Johnson)
3) Charles Johnson is a fat cow (no disagreement, again, here)

But whatever the case, if the LoDuca trade must again come up (and it must, like the sun rising or Danny Graves blowing up on the mound), this fact is relevant to the analysis.

I do agree DX that better options at 3B existed via trade, though I don't think there were any free agents that made sense, but would you have wanted a top prospect dealt for a solid 3B this year? How much of a difference would it have made? And would that difference still be big enough to justify losing a prospect if Perez played more at 3B?

Also, whatever defense Depo was unable to retrieve at 3B to replace Beltre's he made up for in replacing Shawn Green in RF with Drew's defense.

good point Steve. Similarly, couldn't you argue theoretically that Depo could have known LoDuca would again struggle in the second half in the season and thus there was no BIG bat that needed replacement?

Perhaps the difference between Penny and whoever took his starts was as big or bigger than a 2nd half LoDuca and Brent Mayne.

265 I'm not sure I'd call Perez's defense at third adequate, but it's probably arguable. The Valentin signing still puzzles me, because he just doesn't seem like DePo's kind of player. He's been in decline, and his OBP was only .287 last year.

It just seemed like DePo wasn't paying attention to which positions he already had filled. Sort of similar to the football guys who go with the best available athlete, regardless of position. I'd hate to think where'd we be without Jeff Kent, but bringing him in blocked Perez from what would probably have been a more comfortable position. I presume DePo thought Perez could make the adjustment to third, just as Lasorda assumed Pedro Guerrero could.

271 -- Well, I don't know. That would be logical, and I don't think they teach logic as part of earning your baseball degree.

Tracy has finally punished bad defense, Valentin isn't playing tonight (although Edwards is). Repko gets the start to improve defense, along with clean up hitter and gold glove 1B Phillips

269. Steve
>>>He tried, since there was a deal for Charles Johnson that Johnson vetoed. One could argue many things based on this:

1) DePo should have known that Johnson would do that.<<<

True

You don't blowup a building planning on building another without having a new building permit first.

With the caveat that the difference between Charles Johnson and Brent Mayne wasn't much, so this may be a moot point anyway.

277 Let's not forget dear old David Ross either.

er, of course I meant 276. Yeah, that's the ticket...

Going into August 1, if the choices were C. Johnson, Mayne, and Ross, I would have taken Ross.

getting rid of LoDuca wasn't exactly blowing up a building. More like getting rid of your million dollar California home and replacing it with your Brad Penny Oregon home that costs half as much.

276. Steve

True again. But who knew that he would lose his skills so quickly.

Or selling your Jefferson Parish home a week before Hurricane Katrina hits.

281 -- The same could be said of Dave Ross. Look at his 2003.

Great post. Really just great. And with such broad application: "[I]f you have no idea about something, don't write as if you do. Otherwise, when you do have an idea about something, no one will care."

That's perfect. If I ever get a tattoo, it's going to be that, on my ample, ample torso.

Let me see, where are all those buffoons who were posting all last March about what a great acquisition Jose Valentin was? Why don't y'all just stand up so the rest of us can laugh out loud. I suppose if Valentin is lucky enough to sign a one year deal for 2006 with a team like, say, the Royals, there will still be some bloggin' fools in KC who will find statistical grounds to say what a great pickup he is in spite of his strike outs, low batting average, braindead baserunning, poor defensive range and errors on easy plays. Maybe they'll say he's good in the clubhouse.