Three thoughts before I go to class tonight...

1. I am not a religious man; never have been. But I am praying for Jayson Whitehouse.

2. I dislike Barry Bonds intensely. I'd dislike him if he were a Dodger. If he were a Dodger, he'd replace Strawberry as my least-liked Dodger ever. Palmeiro got caught; I hope Barry's time comes soon.

3. I was in downtown LA, fifteenth floor of the LAUSD building in my continuing effort to sign a contract so I can go get the bejeebus scared out of me at Locke High School. The blackout had other ideas. Fifteen flights of stairs is a lot easier on the way down.

Weaver? Again? Jerry's going to have to turn down his hearing aid again.

Unoutable?

Random Dodger Game Callback

September 12, 1943

The Brooklyn Dodgers scored six runs in the seventh inning to come from behind and take an 8-4 win over the Philadelphia Phillies before a Sunday afternoon crowd of over 13,000 at Ebbets Field. Despite the win, the Dodgers were only 74-60 and in second place, 16 games behind the St. Louis Cardinals.

The Dodgers, who were starting to lose more players to military service, sent Curt Davis (called Ol' Dan'l Boone Davis in the New York Times) to the mound to face Al Gerheauser. The Phillies were managed by Freddie Fitzsimmons, who had played for the Dodgers earlier in the year, but was released so he could take over the Phillies in late July. The Dodgers presented Fitzsimmons with a $100 war bond before the game in honor of his service with the team. (The bond would have cost the Dodgers $75 at the time and it stopped earning interest in 1983 in case you want to get something out of the Fitzsimmons estate. All interest on this bond is subject to Federal income tax.)

The Phillies led 3-0 after 3 ½ innings and 4-2 going into the seventh. The Dodgers started off the seventh with a leadoff walk by catcher Bobby Bragan. Pinch hitter Johnny Cooney hit into a force play. Left fielder Frenchy Bordagaray singled and shortstop Arky Vaughan tripled in Cooney and Bordagary to tie the game. Center fielder Luis Olmo drew an intentional walk and second baseman Billy Herman drew an unintentional one to load the bases. First baseman Howie Schultz singled in two runs to drive out Gerheauser in favor of Tex Kraus. Kraus retired Dixie Walker, but Mickey Owen, filling in at third base that day, tripled in two more to make it 8-4. Les Webber came in to pitch the last two innings.

It was the Dodgers tenth straight win of the season over the Phillies. The Dodgers would win 17 of 22 contests against the Phillies in 1943.

But after two great seasons, World War II hurt the Dodgers greatly and the team slipped from 104 wins in 1942 to a mediocre 81-72 record in 1943. The Dodgers finished in third place, 23 ½ games behind the Cardinals. St. Louis was able to overcome its personnel shortages because of its extensive minor league system that was developed by Branch Rickey, who was now in his first year of running the Dodgers.

Because of the war, the Dodgers suited up 45 different players in 1943. Two of the biggest losses were shortstop Pee Wee Reese and center fielder Pete Reiser. Arky Vaughan, a future Hall of Famer, moved over from third and had a good season, but Bordagaray and nine others filled in at third. Manager Leo Durocher even had to step out of the dugout to fill in for six games.

There was some serious star power on the 1943 Dodgers despite all the turnover. Besides Vaughan, the Dodgers featured several other future Hall of Famers. Joe Medwick played his last season as a regular in Brooklyn and was sold to the Giants in midseason. 40-year old Paul Waner filled in the outfield and would play in the majors until 1945.

Other notables included former MVP Dolph Camilli at first base, who got into 95 games before going into the military. Gene Hermanski, who would play for two Dodger pennant winners, broke into the majors. Gil Hodges made his major league debut at age 19 and played third base. And future Dodgers general manager Al Campanis played his entire major league career in 1943, appearing at seven games at second base.

The pitching staff, outstanding the past two years, was now ordinary. Kirby Higbe went 13-10 with a 3.70 ERA. Whitlow Wyatt was 14-5 with a 2.49 ERA. Davis went 10-13.

It was hard for Rickey to plan the future of the Dodgers as World War II put everything up in the air. But once things settled down, Rickey had ideas on what the Dodgers needed to do. He wanted to build up Brooklyn's farm system to the level that he had in St. Louis, but it was going to take a few years and there would be some suffering. But the whole world was suffering in 1943 too.

Thanks to the New York Times, Retrosheet, Baseball-reference.com

3 - is that not clear?

5. Unoutable? Which Met player are you speaking of? :) vr, Xei

1 my suspicion on Bonds being caught?..he timed his return until tests run by his personal physicians could not detect anything in his system...IMO

The Gnats are 7 games out with 7 games remaining with the Padres, making the Gnats the only NL West team other than the Padres who still control their own destiny. As much as most of us here hate the Gnats, many will be cheering the Gnats on in those 7 games.
vr, Xei

7. I thought the same thing once, but didn't know if players on the DL could be tested or not. If DLed players could still be tested, then that would blow the conspiracy theory to smithereens. vr, Xei

just a thought.
what would the dodgers be like if we had the last owner, rupert muhrdock and fox corporation and also had depodesta as the gm today.
we might have been able to lure brad radke instead of settling for odalis perez ect.

look at boston they have a payroll of 130 something million with a sabermetrics gm.

9 they probably can be tested, but to get to Barry in Beverly Hills you need an armed escort and a passport

i think because of our limited payroll, depodesta couldn't put together a 100% sabermetrics team, which means jim tracy has enough non sabermetrics players (repko,izturis,phillips,carrara ect.)available to drag the team under.

Bonds has been tested this year. I've read stories about that. Presumably players on the DL can be tested.

There's probably somebody in Wichita with Darren Dreifort's sample.

12

payroll does not equal success

Florida, Oakland, Minnesota all have made it to the postseason, and sometimes win it all with less payroll. This year is a good example, since giving all that money to Perez and Lowe didn't turn them into top-tier pitchers.

Some excellent Dodger quotes in this week's page on baseball prospectus.

THIS JUST IN...GO TO HELL!

"I don't see why you need to say hello to someone 365 days a year. Shouldn't once a week be enough?"
--Dodgers second baseman Jeff Kent, on being friendly in the clubhouse (Los Angeles Times)

"Yeah, I pushed Milton Bradley. I've pushed lots of players."
--Kent, on his altercation with teammate Milton Bradley

"One of my regrets about Game Six of that World Series? Later, in the clubhouse, I should have started a fight with Barry Bonds, not because I wanted to fight him, but because we needed to stir things up."
--Kent, on Game Six of the 2002 World Series

"I would have fought Barry for no other reason than the fight would have taken everyone's mind off what just happened. And Barry would have known exactly what I was doing."
--Kent

"I don't know if I ever really liked baseball. If I had my druthers, and could do something else, I'd probably be doing it."
--Kent, who actually did say "druthers."

"I may not like the game, but I respect it, and too many young kids don't."
--Kent

"When Milton said that, it was the first time in my career that my wife Dana has read something and cried. That hurt. That really hurt."
--Kent, on Bradley's accusations that Kent was a racist

"I always thought spring training was a time for a team to get closer, but when I first saw Jeff this year, he didn't even acknowledge me. I thought, that's really strange."
--Kent's teammate Ricky Ledee

"He still doesn't talk to many people, but, you know something, he's taught us all a good lesson. We get paid to play and produce, not to kiss people's butts. Even though he's been slumping or tired or hurt, he's played and produced."
--Ledee

I don't like Bonds either, but i don't see how stirring things up would've helped. Anyways, i hope he does well against the Padres pitchers at least.

12. I think it's more of a "he hasn't had enough time to put together a sabermetrics team", than not having the dinero. Look at Oakland the past couple of years. I think if healthy our starting lineup (perhaps not the one Tracy would trot out there), is pretty sabermetrically inclined. Once the injury armageddon(sp?bob) parachuted into the clubhouse all plans were thrown out the window. So in conclusion, I blame it more on time and injuries than on money.
vr, Xei

14
the only reason why depodesta settled for perez and lowe is because he couldn't throw enough money at brad radke who is clearly better than perez and lowe.
there was another starting pitcher depodesta wanted, i can't remember the name, but couldn't afford him, and i'm sure knowing depodesta he was better than perez and lowe.
i know payroll doesn't allways create sucess, but payroll plus a sabermetrics gm is the best scenario in my opinion.

15

I believe all those quotes were taken from the Plaschke interview with Kent.

When times are troubled, you have to sit down for a heart to heart with the Moral Voice of Los Angeles Sports.

Which MLB team has the most wins per million dollars of payroll? I would ass-u-me the Yanks would be last.
vr, Xei

16
how many championships has oakland won since having beane as their gm.
zero.
i think moneyball/sabermetrics delivers playoff calibur teams but not championship teams.
i think higher payroll, not yankee type payroll, just higher payroll/sabermetrics delivers championship teams, boston a good example.

19 off the top of my head, I'd guess Cleveland?

20 I think it is designed for success over the long haul...and then anything can happen in a short series...

Luck delivers championship teams.

16
and "time" wouldn't have been an issue if we had a higher payroll.
i do agree with you about injuries.

23 correct, its the luckiest of the teams making the playoffs

cmon people, wouldn't you rather have brad radke than odalis perez.
this is a direct result of limited payroll.

26 -- yes. Who wouldn't? But it's not necessarily a direct result of limited payroll anyway. My understanding was that like Corey Koskie our deal to Radke was better than the one he ended up taking.

23
i wouldn't be a baseball fan if baseball was a perdominately lucky sport.
luck isn't it.

26 27 and further, money for money's sake isn't necessarily good either...e.g. Dreifort, Brown, etc

Do we know Radke turned down the Dodgers? I really can't remember him coming up during the off season, but it could be jusy my faulty memory. I think you were referring to Clement as the other pitcher. He clearly did not want to come west, no matter the money.

Radke is one of the few players who cared more about location than money. He signed very early with Minnesota because he wanted to stay there, close to home. I don't think any other teams had a chance.

He's also had about the same season as Lowe, and all year nearly everybody here has proclaimed Lowe the worst pitcher ever, and worst signing of the offseason.

20. As '22' stated Moneyball is not intended to win championships directly. If you read the book closely you would remember Billy Beane mentioning that the goal is to just make the playoffs. A 7 game series is such a small sample size that it's pretty much a crapshoot once you make the playoffs. So for you to say that the A's have won 'zero' championships is missing the point altogether!
vr, Xei

Baseball is decidedly NOT a predominantly lucky sport. That is because it is played over 162 games, giving time for statistical oddities and regressions to play theselves out.

But the playoffs are played over five games. Then seven games. Then seven games. In no sense of the word does performance in the "playoffs" predominate baseball.

26 - Point me to your source for saying that Radke didn't come to Los Angeles because of money issues.

Radke was signed for two years at $18 million. Odalis got $24 million for three years. Odalis got less per year but more guaranteed.

27
that was just one example.
basicaly what i am saying is wouldn't you rather have another 25-30 million on the payroll to go after better free agents, instead of having to settle for an odalis perez type.
but the key thing is to also have a sabermetrics gm, i'm not advocating at all kevin malone, that was the problem with the murdock/fox ownership, the gm malone.

31 is right.

They've already posted the lineups for the Padres-Giants game.

And, yes, it's true.

Mark Sweeney is batting fourth and playing first base for San Diego.

Oh, and even though Bonds is back, Moises Alou is out with an injury.

And the Giants are still starting Kevin Correia.

Money + Sabermetrics > Little Money + Sabermetrics. Sure it is, if done correctly. The Red Sox were down 3-0 and a few outs from 4-0 to the Yankees in the ALCS and it was a non-sabermetrics play that saved them (Dave Roberts SB). Werthgagne... you may need to read the book a little closer next time. :) vr, Xei

wouldn't you rather have another 25-30 million on the payroll

No. Not really. "Better" free agents than Odalis Perez = Derek Lowe.

35 - Look, no one here is going to turn down free money. But your assumption is still off because there were very, very few top-tier free agent pitchers last season. The only great pitcher that was perhaps out of the Dodger price range last offseason was Pedro Martinez.

The large amount of money given to Lowe and Perez is an indication that money pretty much was not a problem for the Dodgers last offseason as far as the construction of the pitching staff.

One could also argue that if only the Dodgers had had less money to spend, they would have ended up with Esteban Loaiza on a one-year deal instead of Perez for three.

So yes, money helps. But signing Odalis Perez is an example of having money.

its so easy to spend someone else's money...he should spend 30 million more or whatever...easy to say...

One could also argue that if only the Dodgers had had less money to spend, they would have ended up with Esteban Loaiza on a one-year deal instead of Perez for three.

haha! very funny. vr, Xei

I think too many people subscribe to the LA Times theory that the Dodgers are operated from a position of economic distress.

But signing Odalis Perez is an example of having money

Key point.

Later... see you in about the 4th inning. Please keep the score close til then. And hopefully the Magic 8 Ball is feeling well rested this evening.
vr, Xei

"cmon people, wouldn't you rather have brad radke than odalis perez."
-----------
"2005-09-12 17:14:3327. Steve
26 -- yes. Who wouldn't? "
---------------

[raises hand]

What are the rankings of highest payroll in the National League?

To steal a line from Robin Williams and Bill James, Odalis Perez is God's way of telling you that you have too much money.

46 -- Hee Seop Choi agrees with you too!

if you have more money PLUS A SABERMETRICS GM you don't go after perez and loaiza types.
by the way loaiza is HAVING A CAREER YEAR, his career stats are bad.

If Odalis's trend started in 2002 of good year/bad year/good year/bad year continues, he should have an ERA in the threes in 2006.

What's the use of having a Sabermetrics GM if there aren't any good free agents to sign for all those millions?

What about Esteban Loaiza's 2003 season? That was a lot better than this year. Loaiza is also not tearing up the NL away from RFK. He has an ERA of 4.86 on the road and opposing batters hit him at a .307 clip on the road.

Werthgagne31, I am hereby giving you a $130 million payroll and taking you back to December 2004. Who are you going to get?

For all the grief that the Lowe signing has gotten, he has one of the better ERA's out of last year's FA class:

Pedro - 2.93
Lowe - 3.67
Loaiza - 3.79
Byrd - 3.81
Radke - 3.91
Benson - 4.00
Clement - 4.17
Odalis - 4.73
Milton - 6.63

I'm probably missing a few guys, and ERA isn't the be-all end-all of stats, but it does discount the myth of how Clement was the best FA signing of the offseason. Maybe someone with win shares can provide a better ranking?

The Angels made a pretty good pickup in Paul Byrd.

Maybe DePodesta could have given the $22 million Clemens requested in arbitration and stolen him from Houston.

The Hardball Times Win Shares page has Pedro Martinez with 15 WS, most of the players listed in 55

Clement has 13. Radke has 12.

LA could have given up all their prospects for Randy Johnson. That would have increased payroll.

57 - Could DePodesta have moved the Dodgers to Houston as well?

60 Sure, why not? The Astrodome was available until Katrina came along.

54
i need a list of who was available, i'd have to look it up.
but off the top of my head, i would have put together a starting rotation of penny (allready had) weaver (allready had) and would have gotten radke,martinez,clemens.
by the way lowe is fine to me, but i'd rather have the 3 above.

He should have signed Beltran, Beltre, Finley and Ordonez.

Carl Pavano and Jaret Wright each have 2 Win Shares for the Yankees. The same as Al Leiter!

61 - good point :)

And then Dodger Stadium becomes a mall, just like we suspected.

62
Clemens?

Roger Clemens?

Ummm. OK.

Jon Lieber belongs on the above list. 4.42 ERA, 1.22 WHIP.

"i would have gotten ... clemens"
------------------

Um, no, you wouldn't have. But thanks for playing.

63
i wouldn't have touched beltre,finley,ordonez.
remember, i'm saying a sabermetrics gm is very important.
i'm not just advocating a higher payroll only, we learned a lesson with malone.
a higher payroll PLUS A SABERMETRICS GM.

Ah, yes, Magglio Ordoñez, the great sabermetric antichrist. How could I forget?

The world has forgotten Carl Pavano. And rightfully so.

Even Alyssa Milano has?

i knew i shouldn't have put clemens on the list.
i only put him on the list not counting on how hell bent he was in wanting to be in houston.

72 Penny is a big boy.

As good as Pedro has been this year, does anyone see him staying healthy through the duration of his contract? That's one thing you can say about Lowe, he is pretty dang durable.

Plus, Clemens? Please, he retired from the yankees who probably would have given him 30 million a year, how would the dodgers be able to lure him over? Radke was a hometown guy as well, this has been repeated ad nauseum in this thread.

73 Don't worry, man. We covered you there. The Dodgers would have moved to the Astrodome. Great pitchers park.

73 That's the problem with thinking money is the only factor. There are many instances of players wanting to play for certain teams/regions, exemplified by the signings of Clemens, Radke, and Clement. Pedro was the only guy we probably had a chance for, but like I just said, that signing will prove to be a mistake as soon as next year possibly.

Didn't DePodesta trade for Finley?

78
Sssh. You're messing up a good story.

I believe the proper order of pitchers paired up with Alyssa Milano is:
Pavano, Zito, Penny.

She used to date hockey players.

She knows which sports produce more revenues.

I just hope Carolyn Hughes doesn't become involved with Mattias Nordstrom!

If the Dodgers increased their payroll to 130 million while the rest of the NL West was still under 80 million I'd feel like I'm rooting for the Yankee's. No thanks, I'd rather have a level playing field and beat them because my GM was smarter then they were. Never been a big fan of win at all costs which is why I'm more of an underdog guy. Once in a while I'd have spent some money on the right free agent. Never understood why we didn't go after Tejada since he was available the year after Izzy had been an offensive disaster and I thought he signed a very reasonable contract with Baltimore. I love his love for the game. Not that he's helped Baltimore any.

10. Just looking at the list of FA pitchers from last offseason and knowing how much they all got paid should make you realize that Depodesta's biggest mistake was bothering to get involved with the market for FA pitchers at all. A sabermetric GM isnt supposed to let the market make decisions for him. His mistake here appears to be lack of imagination; other than the trade involving tim hudson, did Depodesta consider looking towards other avenues to acquire starting pitching other than the FA market.

I find this hard to believe given his experience in Oakland. My feeling is, and i have no factual evidence to support it, is that Depodesta HAD to spend some money and had to spend it on free agents because McCourt needed him to in order to dispute the notion that the dodgers are a middle class franchise and to "affirm" his commitment to those that think commitment means lots of cash.

I dont care what the dodger payroll is, if they win im happy. But what wins is smarts (and luck). I forget his name, but remember the original writer for the Fourth Outfielder, he left this winter. One of his last articles, i believe it was about the Lowe signing, touched on the fact that Depodesta's biggest challenge as the Dodgers GM will be how to allocate all the dodger's "marginal" payroll. More simply put, if he could build a 95-win team(like the A's) on a $50 million budget, how would he spend the additional $40 million? Given the limited number of roster spots and the fact that a team could only be "so good" you couldnt possible spend $90 million as effeciently as he could $50 million.

In this regard i think he failed last year. And before we anoint Theo Epstein, remember that the Red Sox havent been much more successful on the free agent market; they spent $40 million apiece on edgar renteria and jason veritek. The problem Depodesta is facing is not lack of cash, it is too much.

So much great stuff on this site today's. Nice day Jon, all.

Vishal's roadrunner story is just classic.

One thing I always, always learn from RDGC is that, other than Coco Crisp, baseball players used to have much cooler names. Case in point: Frenchy Bordagaray.

But no one rose to my baseball/football/same city/same day/same score challenge. Understandable, I certainly couldn't figure that out.

If we don't sign Lowe and Perez we have the following rotation coming into the year:

Penny
Weaver
Ishii
Some combination of Erickson/Houlton/Jackson/Dessens

Who here was willing to accept a rebuilding year after last year? I sure wasn't.

66. I think you touch on a misconception about free agency. It is not an auction. Sometimes players want to play for other teams. Sometimes you have to overpay to get someone to play for you. Look at the Tigers, they offered Beltre more than he got from Seattle, and they offered Lowe more than he got. There owner had cash and just had to spend it, and eventually spent small coutries GDP on Magglio Ordonez. Having money doesnt garantee you can buy the best players.

82Sure like your posts. Can't agree with the last sentence but everything else is spot on.

As an addendum, we'd be truly screwed this year, since the only worthwhile pitcher on the market is Burnett.

We don't sign Lowe and Perez, we're doomed to two years of crappy pitching. Not acceptable.

83

I don't recall reading your question anywhere Sam.

88 It was easy to miss, comment 17 in the young pitcher's thread this morning. Also, the absence of a question mark (which did actually appear in the even earlier thread where I first posted it just as it closed) may have rendered its question-like nature no longer operative:

Moving up my comment from thread below to where the action is.

. . . . The Nationals and Redskins both played simultaneous home games yesterday and both ended 9-7. So who's gonna tell me when the last time a baseball and football game were played on the same day in the same city and ended with the same score . . .

87. Why do you assume that the only place to get good starting pitchers is through free agency. There are lots of young starters that havent quite establishing themeselves. Who was Perez before the dodgers got him from Atlanta? Derek Lowe was a reliever before starting. There are other options that plunking down a lot of cash.

82 - you're thinking of Tom Meagher. I didn't agree with his assessment of the Lowe signing then, and I would say I've been vindicated by Lowe's subsequent performance. There were worse, though; one guy -- and I'm too lazy to look it up -- was actually undergoing a certain amount of self-hypnosis in order to conclude that there was some meaning in all those bipolar games. Me, I just figured Lowe was unpredictably bad. Boston supposedly didn't re-sign him because he was a drunk and apparently a Lothario on the side. While the latter makes no nevermind on his on-field performance, the former could. Regardless, I still read the Lowe signing to some degree as a reaction to the market rather than trying to find ways to get undervalued parts. Both OP and Lowe are overpriced mediocrities, but as 87 correctly points out, they will look like a positive bargain compared to the extreme seller's market that will mark the 2005/2006 offseason. The plan may well be to wait until one of the kids comes up, which is to say, it wouldn't look all that different if you had Dan Evans running the ship.

89

That question is so Starkian. There is a Pro-Football-Reference.com if you want to get busy on this.

90 - Most organizations aren't all that enthusiastic to give up youngsters who can pitch. To get Odalis Perez we had to give up one of the top five players in baseball.

We could have tried to pull of something akin to the Mulder Trade, but we simply don't have the personnel on hand to do so.

Considering how ridiculous the pitching market is, trading for a solid starter that makes 3-5 million dollars a year just seems unfeasible.

92.thanks, my point wasnt that his assesment of lowe was right, i dont think he was. But the fact that he pointed out Depodesta's challenge of spending big money effiecently. Lowe represents a faluire of this.
If 2005/2006 market is an extreme sellers market shouldnt the Dodgers trade Perez and Lowe? Last offseason Billy Beane planned on trading only Tim Hudson. After the market unfolded like it did, he decided that the conditions were ripe to trade Mulder as well, as difficult and calamitous it may have seemed to some to trade two good starters. But if the market is leaning your way, you need to tilt.

93 It's actually not so hard, but it takes a lot of heart and soul to get it done

95 Sadly, we were out of greatly overestimated players. As much as everyone loves Cora, I don't think we could have scored Zach Duke for him.

Alex Cora could end up getting TWO playoff bonus checks this year!

93. Why not? Minnisota traded Eric Milton for carlos silva. Other teams want experience and are willing to pay for it. If a team is willing to overpay for free agents, why would they be unwilling to overpay for guys via trade. The Dodgers need to be smart and take a chance on guys that other teams have given up on. Our advantage is Dodger Stadium, we dont need some ace, we just need someone to pitch 180 decent innings. Once AJ Burnett and a couple other guys are gone, teams will be faced with increasingly smaller pool for "quality" starters. For GM's and owners who value experience and need to make an expensive "splash" Odalis Perez and Derek Lowe will be realistic alternatives.

3B Aybar
SS Robles
2B Kent
1B Saenz
RF Cruz
LF Edwards
C Navarro
CF Werth
P Weaver

We're facing a lefty, Francis, so it's not a terrible line up. I have no idea how Edwards managed to move up a spot

90 speaks to what I think is a serious myth out there, that the Dodgers could trade for a "younger, cheaper" pitcher with credentials equal to, or perhaps superior to, Odalis Perez and Derek Lowe's.

DePo might be pretty smart, but other GMs have brains, too (most of them anyway), and they realize that if you've got a good pitcher under your control that you're not paying much because he's not yet arb- or FA-eligible, you don't trade him. Period. Unless it's a lopsided deal in your favor. One of the names that has cropped up is Aaron Harang. I'd love to have Aaron Harang on the Dodgers. But we're not going to have a crack at him until he's in a position to demand 8 million dollars, unless we're willing to give up our choicest prospects, and/or send the Reds a player like J.D. Drew along with money to help pay his salary. That's how it works now. That's why the true sabermatician GM focuses most of his energy on player development. If Chad B. is all he's cracked up to be, we'll have a #1 pitcher on our staff soon who will play for relative peanuts. A saber-GM only spends money when he has to, when the player development system has failed. The Dodger system failed, but it is in a surging recovery now.

im not sure if id rather have edwars or repko starting

98 That was before the Mets destroyed the market by signing Benson.

People are much less willing to overpay via trade because not only do they have to eat a ridiculous contract, they have to give up a useful part for the right to do so.

Would anyone really be willing to give up a useful part for Jeff Weaver?

It cost the Dodgers 10 million dollars to turn Shawn Green into Dionner Navarro, you can't do that too many times.

Why not start Myrow? He may be terrible, he may live up to his 1.000 OPS. Either way, he has far more power than Edwards, is the same age, and we have no idea what he can do. We know what Edwards can do. I'll give Tracy the lefty argument for this game, but I still want to see how good Myrow. I doubt he's much worse than Edwards...

As for Aybar, brilliant startegy playing a really good first start, convincing Tracy he's good. I'm not saying he's not, but if he went 0-4, Edwards is at 3rd and Repko in center

100. If this is a myth, then how did the dodgers get DJ Houlton for nothing. Why did the Reds pay Eric Milton all that money? GM's make mistakes. The objective is to take advantage.
What does Beane or Ryan do when they need a starting pitcher and one isnt forthcomming from the minors?
What are you advocating? Should the dodgers just give up, I understand that being a GM is hard, but there are opportunities. The fact that the FA market is overvalued for starters means that people are not doing a good job making decisions about talent. You think that Walt Jocketty wishes he could have Danny Haren back instead of Mulder?

102. In light other FA contracts, neither Lowe nor Perez's contracts are ridiculous. The reason pitchers are going to make so much money this winter is because there is a scarcity of starters, meaning one the first few sign, Lowe and Perez are going to look pretty good.

105 I thought your point of contention was that Lowe and Perez make too much money? If their contract is fair, and they can hold down the fort until Billingsley et al are ready, what's wrong with them?

Smart teams get decent pitchers all the time. It is not a myth and if you want me to take the time to go through all the rosters I'm sure I'll come up with at least 10 names of pitchers who were acquired via trade and not FA who are having an impact this year.
The Twins came up with Nathan/Liriano/Bonser in one deal for a free agent catcher that no one likes. Sabaen then traded Jerome Williams for Hawkins. So one GM alone has traded one stud closer, one decent starter, one possible stud starter, and one minor league pitcher who might also become a major league pitcher.
Aaron Harang was acquired in the 1st place for an expendable part. That is just off the top of my head. I'm sure the other 26 rosters will show that in each pitching staff, some very quality pitchers were acquired via trade and not FA.
Bronson Arroyo
Aaron Small
Two more quickies.

It just occurred to me that I'm very glad FSNW2 doesn't have a ticker at the bottom of the screen, because then it would tell me the score of Monday Night Football. MNF is tape-delayed out here until 6:30pm local time.

That's not to say I watch the entire game, but I absolutely hate knowing the score of a game before it starts. For years we had at least one baseball playoff game delayed, and dodging the radio or ESPN was difficult on those game days.

i'm glad you guys liked my letter story. :)

i don't know what the big argument is about with all the free agent/payroll talk. we'll have penny and lowe and perez next year, which isn't bad if they're healthy. lowe's overpaid but so far, not so bad. the other guys in the market were mostly worse or way more expensive. i still wouldn't have minded clement or pavano or even radke instead of perez, but i think we got the ones we could get. all 3 of those guys had regional preferences that would have made them even more overpaid than lowe is if we compensated them enough to overcome those preferences. and this way, we should have room to get another pitcher for next year and have guys like houlton and broxton and billingsley compete for the 5th starter job. sounds good to me.

where depodesta failed was in getting a third baseman(valentin was NOT the answer, and it was a huge gamble to think he was) and maybe one more outfielder, which he now has in cruz. but it's impossible to plan for werth, bradley, drew, AND ledee all spending significant time on the DL. and for izturis AND valentin to both be on the DL concurrently as well. with navarro/martin in the wings, phillips is a decent stopgap, and bako was fine too, though arguably he should have had a better 3rd-stringer than mike rose, but are 3rd-string catchers ever any good anyway?

anyway, even in retrospect i don't think depodesta did a horrible job with the money he had. if he could have spent more to get a better 3rd baseman from somewhere, maybe he should have, but i don't know who. glaus? $12 million is a lot to pay for a balky shoulder, but the guy can hit. on the other hand, though he's no glaus, we do have antonio perez, who is better than mike edwards at least, and tracy just won't play him.

and i won't even get into choi.

anyway, it seems pretty obvious that if we even had HALF the injuries we have had, which would place us about at the periphery of what can be expected/planned for, and if we had a manager who didn't play his scrubs and sit his studs, then we would have been in fine shape. as it is, we SHOULD be in fine shape next year, as people will get back from the DL, and as some personnel(dreifort, green, weaver, etc...) are coming off the books, so we can plug some holes. i wonder who we'll get this offseason.

108

I was freaked out the time I was in Kauai on the day after Thanksgiving and I woke up around 9:30 and found out that the first college football game of the day was almost over.

110 Oh, yeah. The NFL starts at 0700; the second game starts at 1000. Plenty of time to go to the beach Sunday afternoon (or there used to be, before Sunday Night Baseball/Football).

The Beltre watch is on.

Will he break his non contract year career highs?

predictions anyone? first number is current vs career high

HR 18/23
RBI 79/85
runs 63/84
avg .255/.290
obp .290/.360
ops .719/.835
bb 30/61
k's 93/105 *most k's, not least

Doesn't somebody here really hate Aaron Miles? It's not me.

112

Beltre will get more than 85 RBI. And he will strike out more than 105 times.

Sheesh, Felipe Alou is senile. His cleanup hitter has an OPS of 0!

thats 7 in 20(ish) games...u sure :-)

I like all the points about trading for young pitchers who have fallen out of favor. A good current example of this would have to be Gavin Floyd in Philly. He was considered almost can't miss going into the season but has faltered both with the Phillies and at AAA. I don't know how much they still value him, but if we could somehow trade Odalis for him while eating some of the money I think it could pay off handsomely. Pitching in LA compared to the Coors of the east has to help his stats significantly.

Weaver got lucky there, any hotter and it's gone like Vin said

will he get his OPS above Choi's?

will he get his OBP above .300?

And will heeeeee break 20 hr's

stay tuned. (cue Batman TV show music)

any predictions on what the hated one does in his first AB.

walk is the safe route. I am going with pop up to left/ss

For the Gamedayers, Miles stole that off Weaver, not Navarro. Navarro didn't have the greatest of throws, but he had no chance

112
over
over
under
under
under
under
under
over

120
weak tapper to 2nd

SD has bases loaded no outs in the first in SF.

Aybar is becoming very convincing

The Giants triumphal march to the top of the NL West has apparently by interrupted by bad pitching.

San Diego has decided to delay Bonds quite a bit, they're destroying Correia

wild pitch, sac fly, randa single, SD up 3-0. 1 out, man on first.

125 - hee!

No more chick.

Well, for SD Eaton has now come up to bat before he's thrown a single pitch. Always a bad sign.

I gather he's "in the game" for official purposes because he's on the lineup card and you couldn't use a batter here than substitute the pitcher in the bottom of the inning.

Matt Kinney got Eaton with the bases loaded to end it at 3-0

130
I think the only way Eaton could have been lifted is if Bochy claimed he was injured warming up or something.

This is known as "Pulling a Wunsch".

JT Snow prolongs the Bonds watch.

Huston Street got his 21st save of the season for Oakland tonight, tying him with Ghame Over for the most among rookies this season.

The Padres sent all 9 men to the plate in the first and had just 4 ABs.

A GM who would trade Odalis Perez plus cash for a washout prospect would have to have a couple of steel ones.

The Twins/Giants deal of last year is certainly an exception (perhaps "the exception that proves the rule"). That was a monumentally stupid trade, and Sabean is being fried for it to this day. All you can say is he somehow got the idea that A.J. Peirzninski was the next great catcher. But more to the point, Joe Nathan had yet to blossom into Joe Nathan. He was a prospect, not an established pitcher. Jerome Williams was considered a flop when they traded him for a (desperately needed) reliever.

If you're saying DePo should look for the Joe Nathan types, of course I agree. But you can't build the rotation of a contending team depending on that kind of luck. D.J. Houlton is the perfect example. He was a Rule 5 pick. Sometimes those work out, sometimes they don't. But I wouldn't be looking for D.J. Houlton to ever be a #1 pitcher.

As Jon has said, our pitching has been the biggest failure, so I'm not defending DePo, except insofar as to say his pickings last winter were slim, so it would've been hard to come out looking good.

Tracy has declared Drew done for the year according to Dodgers.com.

I really like Vishual's points about the pitching available last year and while right now Lowe is definitely overpaid based on this year's stats, we don't know how he will do next year and you can argue if he comes up with 15 wins a slightly lower ERA and reduces some of the homers, he may not be overpaid. What is also often missed in much free agent talk is where a player wants to play and where an agent thinks he should play. Although not looking good now an argument can be made that if you could get Jeff Weaver for 10million with a 3 year contract, possibly an option for the 4th might not be terrible, especially if you could flip Perez. If we are trying to use are home grown resources I am not sure who will really be ready next year?

Also in that story, the note about tomorrow's game says that Edwin Jackson will be opposed by "fellow righty Sunny Kim."

All righthanders need to form a special fellowship.

137 - the headline did, at least. The quote by Tracy says he'd be "very surprised" if Drew played.

Barry Bonds batting in the big frame. Jeff Francis in the other. WOW!

Bonds sure took a long time, foul or not

142 Make that "interferred or not"

Did anyone else's gameday freeze after 10 pitches. Is the operator just ovewhelmed by the amazingness of it?

wow, a double. and it was a great at-bat.

never mind: "Barry Bonds hits a ground-rule double (1) on a fly ball to left-center field, on fan interference."

sheesh.

Bonds comes about three inches from a home run.

Duane Kuiper almost had a heart attack.

someone who saw it on tv, explain in more detail please?

a year off, an 11 pitch at-bat, not one missed swing.

149 Bonds gave it a ride, and the fan reached over the wall and pulled it over.

but it must have bounced, right? otherwise it's a homer... no?

152 Despite what they called in the Yankees playoff game, no, it's not.

that was about the worst possible outcome for his first at-bat short of actually hitting it out. now he's going to get walked again all the time.

Is Cruz now officially "junior?" Nice to see our 3-4-5 do exactly what they're suppose to

David Ortiz has hit his 40th homer in the 11th in Toronto to put the Red Sox up 6-5.

M's lead the Halos, 3-1.

thanks for the update, bob. go M's! :)

i know it's pointless either way, but which team do we root against in the SF/SD game?

I'm very sad the A's are facing the Indians. It conflicts with my goal of seeing the Angels and the White Sox miss the playoffs.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

I know it's in the interest of the Dodgers to win, but it's sooooooooooo easy to root against the Giants. It's the natural order of things.

The Giants website is reporting that Moises Alou may miss the rest of the season with a groin injury. And Jason Schmidt is being "monitored".

158 well, which one do you dislike more?

When do the Rockies shut down Francis? Further pitching just doesn't make much sense, assuming they don't want the next Prior

The Angels in the long term, but the sheer hilarity of the White Sox collapsing might be worth it.

I like to tell people that I make it a point to hate the Padres because somebody has to hate them, but this year's team isn't all that annoying.

Padres fans are pretty annoying when you are in San Diego. And I still carry a grudge against them for their mascot beating an effigy of Kevin Brown with a bat during a game. That was pretty sick.

However, the Giants are still the Giants and they ooze evil and depravity from every pore of their essence.

Bonds with a fly ball to right center. Nothing special about it, just a fly ball

Dodgers with 7 hits tonite. 5 of which are doubles. Weaver couldnt protect a 5-2 lead last time out.

Wonder if he can protect a 5-0 lead?

160 Yet they'll catch the Padres. Bowa said so

When the pitcher allows, Navarro is showing he can get the baserunenr easily. Thank you Hurdle

Navarro throws out another guy, albeit on a stupid hit n run. Why hitnrun with Todd Helton?

The Dodgers are just 9 doubles short of the major league record for most in a game.

That record has been around since 1883.

I'm thinking that there was some funky ground rule in play that day.

Since 1900, the record is 13 and that was by the Cardinals in 1931 and that was a game when they had a bunch of fans on the field.

As for the AFLAC question, I don't know the answer. I'm guessing that the L.A. high is 8. The Brooklyn record is going to be at least 10.

168. Nevermind 168. My gameday messed up. I enjoy these 5-0 games much easier.

And the lineup doesnt bother me either, with the exception of Edwards over Perez.

So does anyone think that Aybar shouldn't be playing?

This Aybar kid is impressive for only 22 years old. He knows what he's doing at the plate. Never gives an at bat away. Even though were up 5-0, he showed good patience that at bat. Worked the count full. Then put it in play.

Aybar's hits seem to be "extremely good defenders get the out" hits, but I won't criticize until he starts failing. Both his outs yesterday were "extremely good defenders get the out" outs, so I guess he just puts the ball where most can't get it

Well, I found out the L.A. record for doubles.
I won't give the number, but in the game that the Dodgers did it, Doug Rau had one of the doubles.

And the Dodgers lost the game.

i guess i can scratch mueller off my free agent wish list, since aybar could put up as good of numbers as mueller.
giles is a must get.

Kent is sitting on 99 RBI's.

4-1 M's on a double steal with Ibanez stealing home.

173 I'd like to add that I very much like Aybar's approach at the plate, and I really like him in the leadoff spot. Never Ks, walks a lot, and has decent gap power, and works the count

Giants have just tied the game 3-3 and they have a runner on second. Sadly I think we have to root for them tonight-Padres are ahead

I think Jeff Francis is giving us a preview of Edwin Jackson tomorrow night.

Except Francis is not a "fellow righty".

173 Yeah, I agree. That Rockies thirdbaseman is pretty bad, defensively.

Mr. Closser meet Mr. Phillips.
Jason meet JD.

Both Cruz and Saenz have really sent one deep, yet both were foul. Too bad, I sure like 9-0 leads better than 6-0 ;)

With the players the Rockies seem to have to use, how ebarrassing is it that they have been slapping us around.

To make tonight seem more symmetrical, the Angels have Jason Christiansen pitching now.

Nice play by Aybar.

Actually the game in 1939 was played in Brooklyn according to Retrosheet.

The L.A. Dodgers record is 8. July 2, 1978 at Cincinnati.

Ok 6 runs is enough. Save some runs for tomorrow and wed. If we could put Drew in for Edwards, this lineup would actually be pretty good I think.

we need a nickname for aybar.

The 1939 game was definitely at Ebbets Field according to the LA Times story I looked at.

The headline was "Dodgers Divide Bargain Bill with Bucco Crew". The Dodgers had 19 hits in the second game, which they won 14-1. They had 10 singles and 9 doubles.

6 doubles and we still have 11 outs assuming we keep the lead

Chris Berman would call him Willy "Good Eye" Bar
How about Willy the Kid?

Hope Werth doesnt get flashbacks. That pitch didnt hit him in the wrist did it?

uh-ooh! I hope he didn't break anything on Werth.

For those who know more about Erick than I, did the Dodgers or the Angels get the better Aybar? The Dodgers and Angels now hve 3 brother combinations that I can think of (they had 3 for a long time now, but neither Aybar was in the majors)

Buntermaker strikes again. Luckily were up 6-0 so it doesnt really matter.

But why on earth do you have Jeff Weaver bunt? Its not like he's Repko.

The Dodgers could have had 9 in that 1978 game but Bill Russell had to go and hit a triple in the 9th inning.
That game had 13 runs, 25 hits, 8 walks and one guy reaching on an error.

And how long did it take?

2:31

Luck we don't have to name a candy bar after him yet!

Aybar has a full count and a hit every AB it seems. The kid is very impressive to say the least

Willy the Destroyer...he has great at bats.

A very LA nickname: "Skybar"

192 LOL. Good ones. How about Mr. "Good Eye" Bar?

Willy Aybar goes the other way that time. Sure he's probaby getting lucky with his hits, but he does seem to work the count full everytime

if he was more of a middle of the order bat, R-B-AYBAR would be better.

get it!??!

It's the Pirates, not the Phillies! Pirates!

i wish tracy would play antonio perez instead of robles.
i'm not sold on robles as a starter.
more power (not alot more) and more obp.

6-1 M's now.

it would be nice if weaver can go 8 then we can bring in kuo.

And keeping with tonight's theme, the Angels have just two hits in Seattle tonight.

Both are doubles.

If the Dodgers are worried about tiring Navarro and Saenz out...

Why not put Choi in for Saenz?
And put Rose in for Navarro?

We're up 7-0. This game should be over.

Save Navarro for the next 2-3 games.

206. I dont mind Robles out there. But AP must play ahead of Mike Edwards somehow. Still dont know why AP cant play LF?

For several people including myself, I hope we see Kuo.

A Perez doesn't play the outfield because the coaches didn't think he was very good at it. It's not like everyone is good at it. If he played winter ball and got some instruction there, that would be a different thing, but the Dodgers didn't want to have to do OJT for Perez.

Anyone remember watching Todd Hundley try to play the outfield for the Mets?

Or even Al Oliver playing left field for the Dodgers?

Tracy made it sound like AP was the reincarnation of Lucy from Peanuts in LF.

211
yep edwards is the other complaint i have, tracy is getting better, he use to have anywhere from 3-5 guys in the lineup that shouldn't be in there, tonight he has 2, but it all depends on if ledee is available to start, if ledee isn't available then he only has 1 guy in the lineup tonight that shouldn't be in there.

Angels with the bases loaded and 2 outs in the 8th in Seattle, down 6-1 with Cabrera due up.

213 Is playing outfield that hard? I've played centerfield several times in pickup games, it was cake compared to SS. I know the major league is a different deal, but if Manny Ramirez can play LF, almost anyone can.

Remember when Perez lost a popup in Anaheim that McPherson hit?

That might give you an indication that tracking balls over his head isn't one of his strengths. He isn't used to the position. I imagine you would see Perez taking some strange routes to fly balls and probably making some Lonnie Smith like plays.

218 I see Werth taking esoteric routes to flyballs all the time, but he gets to 'em. It sure would be nice to be able to quantify how much of liability Perez would be in LF, so that we can make an informed decision.

210 You don't want Phillips in for Navarro, instead? ;-)

Harsh words from Mr. Delmon Young.

ST. PETERSBURG, Fla. (AP) — Tampa Bay prospect Delmon Young is unhappy about not being called up from the minor leagues this season and said Monday the Devil Rays were reluctant to promote him because the organization is cheap.
The 19-year-old brother of Detroit's Dmitri Young was selected Baseball America's Minor League Player of the Year after splitting time this season between Double-A Montgomery and Triple-A Durham.
Asked why he felt he was not called up, Young replied: "The only thing I can think of is they're being cheap."
"When it comes to free agency, no use trying to stay around there for the long haul," he said. "Get your six years and leave."
......
Young said he will prepare for spring training this winter with intentions of making the big league team but that he wouldn't be surprised if the Devil Rays wound up sending him back to Durham for part or all of next season in order to hold down his service time in the majors and extend the time the team unilaterally can set his salary.
....
"We think Delmon Young is one of the finest players in all of minor league baseball and by sometime next season we believe he will begin to establish himself as an outstanding major league player," Devil Rays general manager Chuck LaMar said.
"Having said that, we saw him play the latter part of August and thought he had had enough. He had already gone from Double-A to Triple-A, and we thought it was time for him to go home and get ready to play winter ball if he wanted to, or if not, get ready for spring training."

210. I like to believe that Phillips isnt on the team anymore.

Sorry, just found it.

http://tinyurl.com/clgxl

I could picture A Perez seeing some time in the outfield after the Dodgers are eliminated.

222 So, you're in denial then?

And Bonds...Ks. He's now 1-4 with a double

Angels down 1-8, in the bottom of the 8th in Seattle. Looks like the A's will be one game back.

8-1 M's going to the 9th. No RBI for Beltre.

217 If Perez hit like Manny, I'm sure even Tracy would tolerate his glove in LF.

Allright Weave!

221 Lamar should trade him here. He can have just about anything he wants I would think. The Dodgers won't be "cheap." Does young's contract have a clause where he can demand a trade? I have no idea if those are allowed in amateur contracts, but that sure would be nice (assuming he comes here)

Bonds out of the game in San Francisco now.

Why is Duaner in the pen? For work? Even Weaver will have to work hard to put this into a save situation.

Sanchez is warming up? Why not Kuo?

231- what was Young's favorite team growing up?

Why is Sanchez warming up? Did Kuo's arm fall off and nobody told me? What's it take to get that kid in another game.

Sanchez says he likes to throw every day, so his warming up may not indicate that he's coming in.

Can we get over the hump and win 4 games in a row?

Edwin Jackson vs Sunny Kim. Kim's owned us.

We're going to face 3 Korean born pitchers in 4 days.

I'm sick of watching BK Kim dominate the Dodgers, I hope the Dodgers are too.

OOps- almost hit another leadoff man. But Weaver has been good tonight and 105 pitches is nothing for him. I probably just jinxed him.

somewhere out there Scott Boras is smiling. $$$ in his eyes with this performance by Weaver tonight.

Robles is not a good defender!

Weaver's gonna blow the shutout

Is that Jeff Weaver of Northridge pitching? Or Jesus of Nazareth?

The Weav likes to hit people.. leave him be. It kinda sucked for the Rockies 2B to take that hit after he checked and then ultimately struck out. I bet stuff like that makes the Weav happy.

Nope, despite the error he pitches a shutout

Weaver's Game Score: 89.

After realizing Izturis was playing hurt and watching Robles play SS everyday it baffles me that most people on this site think Robles is better...

Boras who gave us Drieffort,J.D K-nt and lost us Hochevar?

Yep, one error completely invalidates Robles' worth. It's not like Izturis never made errors.

247
I don't think a lot of people think Robles is all that much better than Izturis. He definitely hits better, but his defense is definitely not as good.

Weaver just gave a shout out to Robles three mins after the error. He forgives all sins.

249-yep, i based that whole statement on one throw.

Robles is a better hitter. But he needs a day off.

Izturis just flat out blew for 2-3 months.

Tracy should play Antonio Perez at SS. He's the only guy on the roster other than Robles that has played SS on a regular basis.

247
robles is better, but not much better.
i'm not high on robles like most here, i just think he's fine as a bench player/pinch hitter.
i'm waiting for some power at ss in guzman.

Robles is gonna get ran into the ground without a day off. And the Dodgers are in the midst of a long stretch without an off day.

Come on-Izturis is a ML shortstop. He only looked bad hurt and never complained. No one else we have is close.

256-on point, frustrates me when someone comes up for a couple months hits pretty well, plays mediocre defense, runs the bases poorly and is said to be better than a guy who was playing banged up the whole summer, unlike some other gamers who are no longer playing in our OF.

Izturis is a ML utility infielder.

The Dodgers are 5 games back

Izturis
Rate2: 104
Zone Rating: .846

Robles
Rate2: 100
Zone Rating: .842

Izturis' career defensive stats are worse than the ones he put up this year. His defense is not that much better than Robles'.

i'm waiting for some power at ss in guzman.

well, when he arrives, i hope you can stomach the 40 errors along with his power.

If Izturis recovers, my guess is we see the 2004 version again: Great field, decent hit, acceptable #2 hitter, fine #8 hitter. That's a better package than Robles, who belongs on the team, but as a sub, and as a hedge against Izturis not coming back in his 2004 form.

None of this blocks the arrival of Guzman, when he's ready.

261
i can stomach it.
if you move him to any position other than 2b or catcher, his free swinging becomes a liability.
if he's not going to be a ss and is going to be moved to the outfield,1b,or 3b, then the dodgers should trade him now while his stock is high.
i'd rather keep him and have him at ss or 2b, but nowhere else.

261. If he hits like Manny and fields like Manny, I'll take it.

I'm not trying to put dowm Robles by defending Iz. I think if he gets a chance,a healthy Izturis could continue to improve.

What a game-there are 3 maybe four shortstops who can really hit and two of them are on the Yankees! Only a couple of decades ago if a ss was a great fielder a team would be happy if he hit .220 like Belanger.

you say now you can stomach it, but i really doubt you will be able too when you experience it.

John Patterson is a perfect example of a young pitcher with a high pedigree who failed for whatever reason and his team gave up on him one year to soon. If he pitched for the Cardinals he'd be close to 20 wins this year. The myth lives on.

253Seem to recall Jose Valentin being a major league SS:)

Yesterday while at the game they warmed up Kuo in the 9th but decided to go with Yhancy and he was never called in. Got some nice photo's of him warming up since my seats are above the bullpen.

264 - you may see the a watered down version next year if B.J. Upton plays SS. At the very least he'll field like Manny. Upton has 53 erros in 139 games at SS this season. Might be one of the few shortstops worse than Guzman (29 erros in 122 games - 97 of them at SS) in the field.

267
then why is he so highly praised?
i can't imagine him being highly praised if he was playing a position that requires patience at the plate.
we don't need another raul mondesi in our outfield, or better yet juan encarnacion (yes i know encarnacion is having a good year).
free swingers at 1b 3b or outfield, i say no thanks.

269 - I should add "if Upton plays SS for the Devil Rays", obviously not the Dodgers.

If Guzman lives up to his projection (Juan Gonzalez type, who knows if it'll happen), then it shouldn't be a problem with him playing outfield.

Looking at this year's outfield, would you complain about a young Raul Mondesi out there right now?

Guzman has 29 errors in 122 games, Hu has 22 in 116 games. There is a difference, and errors tell very little, but I see no reason to assume he's absolutely terrible. He's not making 50+ like Upton. Heck, if we could get Washington here, Guzman might become league average at worse

guzmans highly praised because his potential is off the charts. he has huge power growth once he fills out his 6'6 frame. he has good bat speed and he just oozes star potential. his bbs have increased every year. the ball just jumps off his bat when he makes contact.

he has been young for every league he has played and a 20 yr old who more than held his own in the southern league while top 2 in the league in RBIs deserves to be highly praised.

guzman is one of the few players in our system who truly has superstar potential.

273. In addition Guzman's height will take away some line drives that other SS's cant jump too.

As long as Guzman can turn the DP, and field the routine grounder, I'm alright with him at SS.

5 games still seems like a lot. If we get it down to 3, then i'll start paying more attention.

268. Good point. i've totally forgotten about Valentin because I dont ever remember him playin SS this year.

Very real possibility that Valentin will sub in for Robles at SS when Robles needs a day off.

As long as Guzman can turn the DP, and field the routine grounder, I'm alright with him at SS.

thats the thing. take it from someone who has followed the suns all season. guzmans problem in the field is his consistentcy. he just isnt consistent with the routine play. some games, he looks very good out there. other games, he breaks concentration and lets some easy ones go in between his legs or pulls off on a through and lets it sail.

those are the types of things that can be fixed through hard work and determination, but guzmans going to have to want it if he wants to improve.

when BA said guzmans bat plays anywhere, they are speaking the truth.

Mondesi .211/.271/.359 .630 OPS
Edwards .254/.296/.353 .649 OPS
Repko .216/.277/.352 .629 OPS
Valentin .175/.330/.273 .603 OPS

272 I'd complain just as much as I do now, he really isn't better than what we have

well like i said if the plan is guzman at ss or 2b i can't wait, but if the plan is for him at some other position, i say trade him.

Who says I'm a curse? 2-0 on the season.

273 - I know nothing about Hu other than what I've read here, but have listened or watched (online) nearly every Suns game for the last few months and I can't imagine Guzman sticking at SS. Those aren't a "soft" 29 errors. In fact, I'd go as far as saying he absolutely stinks defensively at SS.

When did 50+ become a standard? They should be playing circus music every time a ball is hit to Upton.

&well like i said if the plan is guzman at ss or 2b i can't wait, but if the plan is for him at some other position, i say trade him.*

i dont understand why you say that. you know, OBP isnt the end all way to judge a player offensively. and age vs level of compeition plays a large factor in projecting major league sucess.

278

That's why I said a young Raul Mondesi (to compare him to Guzman), when he was actually decent and his OPS+ was above league average. As for the current Mondesi (rotting corpse version).. no thanks..

By the way, rules question:

The Rockies got a catcher's interference call on an attempted bunt-and-run. Why was this not called a double play? I seem to remember earlier CI plays of similar note where the batter and runner were both called out.

think of this:
stats in the southern league:

guzman 287/351/475 XBH 11% of AB/ 20 yrs old

laroche 273/367/445 XBH 9.3% of AB/ 21 yrs old

i dont understand why some people rank laroche ahead of guzman.

282 It's not so much the walks (or lack thereof) as much as the walks vs strike outs. I don't mind Guzman in OF if he can hit like Vlad or JuanGone (or even Jose Guillen), but I would prefer him at SS. Although, I'll admit I'm not very high on Hu, and thus I'm desperate for a SS prospect.

Off topic, but if the Dodgers win tomorrow, it will be their first winning streak of at least 4 games since they were 12-2.

Delmon Young grew up here in town and played high school ball just a few blocks away. Not that that means anything, as I never saw him play before but he was quite the rave during his high school playing days. He did miss quite a few games in his senior year. One of my co-workers kids was playing in a pickup basketball game with Delmon when he landed on his foot and twisted an ankle. Playing pickup basketball games is not exactly something a future millionaire should be doing, but niether is doing wheelies at 60mph on a motorcycle. Of course the D-Rays are being cheap with him. vr, Xei

to add along further, if you want to trade guzman bc his numbers dont project well enough for a corner position, then with that same logic, you should want to trade laroche as well since his numbers were INFERIOR to guzman while in the same league but a yr older while playing a corner position.

276 "Very real possibility that Valentin will sub in for Robles at SS when Robles needs a day off."

I assume you mean this year. I can't imagine the Dodgers renewing his contract for 2006. Nice guy, but career over.

284
Those happened on strike outs I believe.

285 A set position and the Vero numbers. That said, I haven't seen too many reputable sources with Laroche over Guzman, and honestly, no one should value Laroche more

Where is that 130mil roster that DrewGagne was going to put together for us. Or did we give up on him at the mention of Clemens.
vr, Xei

Nate, can Laroche play SS. Wasn't he originally a SS. He seems like a good 3rd baseman and might be able to play SS pretty well also. Imagine his power at SS.

291 -- The umpire called Weaver (the batter) out and sent the runner (Werth? Navarro? Whoever) back to first.

290 His career's not over. Lamar will sign him to platoon with Alex Gonzalez at blocking Upton. I'm surprised Cantu is playing, he got really lucky that the Alomar retired (and Gomes is lucky that Batista retired, and the 3-4 AAAA OFs in front of him all sucked)

He will get an invite somewhere at least, although it probably won't be the Dodgers

Not to beat a dead horse but other pitchers acquired via trade or were released by the previous team who are difference makers:
The ranking show VORP ranking followed by Vorp number
1. Chris Carpenter 1/78.4 Released by Toronto because of arm problems signed as a free agent by Cardinals.
2. Willis 3/64.1 AA pitcher traded to Marlins in the big Clement deal.
3. John Patterson 9/53.6 minor league trade with Nationals for Randy Choate. Maybe the best trade in 2004.
4. Carlos Silva 22/39.1 Eric Milton trade
5. Aaron Haraang 24/38.5 Jose Guillen trade
6. Cliff Lee 30/36.9 Bartolo Colon trade. The key player was Brandon Philips who flopped but Sizemore and Lee have made this one of the better mid season trades in history.
7. Chris Capuano 37/34.1 One of 5 players in the Sexson deal. Not considered a key player at the time because of injuries.
8. Brad Penny 41/33 LaDuca trade
9. Doug Davis 49/29.2 released by Rangers and signed by Brewers.

So of the top 50 pitchers in baseball this year nine of them were young not established pitchers when the new team traded or signed them. Some of them had pitched at the major league level but with little success. Brad Penny was established but I just wanted to show how he rates here. All of these pitchers are doing better then most of the pitchers that GM's threw money at during last years free agent fiasco. This year is no different then any other year. Pitching is a crap shoot, and spending big money on it is not a guarantee that you will have good pitching. This is probably the Dodgers most expensive pitching staff ever and the worse at the same time.

5 games out with 3 remaining vs the Padres. Weaver seemed a bit stoned in his postgame interview. He kept referring to the season finally against the Padres being here at Dodger stadium. "When they come to town...", the last 3 games are IN San Diego Jeff. Just so you show up at the right place. He did pitch a wonderful game, but then again the real rockies road team showed up. Tracy seems to be doing a much better job of picking starters ever since we lost the first game of the Padre series, which was a back-breaker. If only, JT and his Magic 8 Ball had come through for us one game earlier. Phillips hasn't started in the last three games, does anyone miss him? Steve is not eligible to answer that rhetorical. Anyways, the Gnats are still the only team other than the Padres that control their own destiny in the NL West. vr, Xei

Isn't Joel Guzman 6 foot 6? And there is mention of moving him to 2b? Has there ever been a 2bman that tall or even a SS? I believe Bobby Grich was pretty tall and Arod is pretty tall, but can't think of any that are 6'6". vr, Xei

293
i allready explained clemens.
and its werthgagne31.
i don't remember who all was available, i'd have to refresh my memory by looking it up, and i'm too lazy.
and what i meant is for the future, i realize the pool of free agents this coming offseason is sad, but i remember last offseason coming to the conclusion that if we had more flexibility with payroll we could have gotten better than odalis perez and valentin, and we could have upgraded at 1b (i'm not high on choi but i'm not down on choi either)

No one has ever mentioned Joel Guzman moving to 2nd base that has any credibility.

Since Weaver didn't strike out on the play when he and Closser tangled, the ruling was offensive interference and in that case, Weaver was out and Werth (the runner on first) had to go back to first.

If Weaver had struck out and Werth was going then it would have been a DP.

I think Phillips has two unassisted DPs because of this.

laroche was an SS as an amatuer. but i doubt he will have the range to play SS as a pro. he is a prototypical 3b.

297. Yes, pitching is a bit of a crapshoot to a certain degree. Along with your list, I'd be interested to see a list of all the young players discarded by their teams that didn't do well. Ours were Erickson/Dessens/Houlton this year and Lima last year. If pitching is a crapshoot, then Erickson is crapping out. vr, Xei

300. Sorry, werthgagne got the names mixed up. Anyways, instead of just saying we could upgrade here and upgrade there, who would you have upgraded with? I mean we had Shawn Green playing firstbase and not producing at $16mil per year. Adjusting for park factors with our Saenz/Choi platoon we aren't too far off what he has done this year and saved quite a bit of dinero. vr, Xei

301. that has any credibility
That was secretly my point. :)
vr, Xei

Imagine, if we won Friday night against SD we would be only 3 down now. That was a big loss.

302 -- I'm missing something. That seems like an odd rule. Why would the situations be treated differently? The Rockies didn't argue, so I'm sure you're right.

Robles looked horrible tonight. Just miserable. Most of his at-bats were against lefties, but he had some really bad swings.

And the condiment tables are sponsored.

304. I didn't mean that Erickson was young and discarded... rather just discarded and probably downtrodden. Hey, Erickson belongs at Ellis island, I'm sure he's a bit wary(sp?bob) too. vr, Xei

Russ Mitchell said at one point that he'd be willing to change positions because of the overload at 3B, said he'd play anywhere. He played SS as an amateur, and considered 2B after he was drafted. Any chance he could be moved to SS? If he can keep up with this year's renaissance, I'd like him at SS, but I have no idea what his defense is at 3B, much less SS

"We've talked about it," Mitchell said. "I like third base but they have the two guys ahead of me. I'll play anywhere. Infield, outfield, it doesn't matter. I just want to play and move up the ladder and do what they want me to do."

Troy Glaus would have been the likely player to upgrade 3b but he has been a butcher at 3b this year. At least Arizona realizes that 3b is an offensive position and not a defensive one so he continues to play and produce.

For those who are caught up in BJ Uptons errors you might want to take a look at HOF Robin Yount's early season career. The only difference is that he got to make those errors in the big leagues. BJ Uptons bat was ready before his glove. TB will rue the day they turn him from an offensive force at SS into an outfielder. I would trade any Dodger prospect for BJ Upton right now. Plate discipline/Speed/Power and with time he will be an adequate if not spectacular SS. If he doesn't make it we could always use a centger fielder these days. TB is doing the right thing this year in letting him play a full season in AAA. Lugo is doing the job so they have no hurry. D Young is right, they are cheap but they have to be. It is not like they have much of a budget. Why should they start his clock?

307. Yep, that's why JT needs to get more flack for starting Phillips at 1B in the biggest game of the season! I think he probably got his arse chewed out (i hope he did) and finally started putting out a better lineup. Who knows. But I'd like to think it got chewed out. Still don't know what his can of WD40 in his office is for.
vr, Xei

305
i'd definately have choi/seanz over green.
and as far as coming up with names, as i said i'd have to find a list of the free agents, my memory isn't that great, but i'm too lazy right now, but if i look it up in the near future i'll come back with some names.
all i can come up with right now is radke and martinez instead of perez and 5th starters erickson/dessens/houlton.
some have said radke wasn't going to come here no matter what, well if you don't know him personally, if he isn't a friend of yours then how do you know for sure.

anyways gotta go to bed, have college classes in the morning.

311. What kind of contract did the oft-injured Glaus get from the D-Backs?
vr, Xei

What worries me most about Depo is that Erickson was what he came up with and then stuck with. Of any move he made this year that worries me the most. No statistical metric would show that Scott Erickson had a chance in hell of being successfull for the Dodgers in 2005 and our GM got fooled by a small sample size in the spring and then did nothing to correct the mistake. I don't think it would be to hard to look at the free agent invitee's and find better fodder then Erickson.

314
4 years/$45 million

well if you don't know him personally, if he isn't a friend of yours then how do you know for sure.

Oh, ok! :) Good luck in class tomorrow.
vr, Xei

Brad Radke stopped hanging out with me after I told him that I thought Carlos Silva was better-looking.

313

From the ESPN.com story about Radke's contract..

"I feel the Twins were my first priority, and I'm just glad it got done," he said."

Not that those words really mean anything, but he didn't make much more than guys like Russ Ortiz, Eric Milton, Odalis Perez, Kris Benson, etc.

(speculation) I think if he wanted to go elsewhere, he may have made more money.

316. At $11 mil per year and blocking the position for 4 years, does anyone think it would be worth it even knowing how he did in his first year there? He's basically paid the same as Drew and quite a bit more than Kent. vr, Xei

319. Yeah, but you don't know him personally so you don't really know if he meant this or was misquoted. And it sounds like Bob had a falling out with him. So he might be just saying that. :) vr, Xei

Apart from the fact that no one here may know him personally, Brad Radke has been no better than Derek Lowe this season, maybe even a little worse.

So you replace Perez with him, unrealistic as that may be. Do the Dodgers gain five games in the standings?

Moot point. I was just answering the WerthGagne question about who was available at 3b that would have been worth spending money on.
I wanted Glaus last year but his contract is silly but I think Drew's contract is silly for the same injured reason.

If only Penny and Lowe (17-22) won about half of their games (20-19), we could be 2 games out.

Radke has been a letdown this year. He's become Bert Blyleven with the gopher ball and he pulled an OP in a big game last week. Pitching in Dodger stadium might have benefited Radke. Moot point since he didn't want to pitch for us.

Pitching in Dodger stadium might have benefited Radke.

Just as long as he wasn't pitching to Hee Seop Choi :-)

Statty Question now (thanks, Bob for the answer to the rules question):

One of the articles on THT this week had a chart of the number of times that defensive indifference has been recorded instead of a stolen base in the last 25 years. In 1980, there were something like five. In 2004, there were 250. Question: How much (if any meaningful amount at all) does this account for any changes in the amount of stolen bases credited over the past 25 years? Does this have anything to do at all with the perception that there is less running now than before?

From my memory, I just don't recall that many runners who would take free bases in the ninth inning like they do now. I think it's just done more frequently now.

If you're really dedicated, you can go through the big stolen base seasons of Wills, Brock, Henderson, and Coleman on Retrosheet. I just don't picture Wills in 1962 trying to steal second with his team down 5-2 in the ninth.

328 -- So it's not that runners doing it were being credited with stolen bases? It's that people didn't do it?

Speaking of stealing with your team down, Sullivan getting thrown out stealing down 5-0 was extraordinarily dumb.

And Aaron Miles is terrible. Sub-Izturis terrible. Sub-Weaver as a hitter terrible. What is he doing in the league terrible. He can't even OBP .300 and he plays half his games at Coors. And he's leading off.

I'm just guessing. I have absolutely no empirical data about the defensive indifference thing.

And I don't know anyone personally who has done it either.

Miles is scrappy:)

329
Can you imagine what other blogs ask when they see our players?
1. Why is valentin playing. He's hitting below 170. I didn't know that was possible in the modern era or since Don Werth retired.
2. Jason Philips is playing 1st base. Isn't his slug % around 380.
3. Jason Werth is playing LF and leading off. He's struck out 100 times in 300 at bats and has a slugg % just points above Oscar Robles who has no power at all.
4. Jason Repko is playing CF. I heard he hasn't had a hit since May against a RHP.
5. Saenz is playing 3b. He's got the mobility of a land shark.

Hate it when I'm the last one up. What do you people do, work for a living:)

Didn't want you to be lonely and have to keep talking to yourself? :)

Wouldn't it be a crazy season if we can pull this off and Tracy is named manager of the year. Depo would have to give him an extension then.

I'm still up, but I have nothing left to say. I don't work until 11.

Unless there is another power outage.

I'm still up, but I have nothing left to say. I don't work until 11.

Unless there is another power outage.

I think Bobby Cox's name has already been engraved on the NL Manager of the Year award.

Bob, if we win the division ":)" would Tracy be a serious candidate?

Tomorrow Jason Philips will be playing 1st base and Mike Edwards will be at 3rd to rest Aybar and you will be asking yourself, "Did I really ask if JT could be manager of the year".

Who votes for the manager of the year?

338
IMHO, no NL West manager will get more than a token vote. I think Cox will get every vote. The only dark horse would be Frank Robinson if the Nationals somehow got the wild card, but that is unlikely.

339. It's late and I must be getting delusional. I thought it would wake you up. :)

Manager of the Year is a BBWAA award.

There is also a Sporting News version of it.

Is Tracy held in high regard by writers?

Tracy finished third in Manager of the Year voting in 2004 behind Cox and La Russa.

Has any team overcome 5 games with 19 left?

346

Yes.

In 1995, the Angels led the Mariners by 6 games with 19 games left and lost in a tiebreaker.

In 1964, the Phillies led the Cardinals by 6 with 19 games left in the season.

Those are ones that I can think of. I don't know if there are others. But it doesn't happen all that often. It helps to have the team in first fall apart. The Angels had an 8 game losing streak and the Phillies had a 10-game losing streak.

Yeah, I remember the Angels blowing it in 1995. It was probably one of the greatest collapses in such a short period.

So, it's possible but most likely improbable unless SD loses like 6 or 7 in a row.

Thanks for all the info, Bob. I think I will be calling it a day/night now.

348 So, it's possible but most likely improbable unless SD loses like 6 or 7 in a row.

Of course, that's what can happen when the second place team is chasing a .500 first place team. San Diego has run off at least one long losing streak already this year. Their best pitcher is ailing. Their lineup is good but very dependent on one hitter, Giles, who does go cold sometimes.

Meanwhile, over in Chavez Ravine, after 135 games, Tracy has finally found a lineup that can produce. Aybar-Robles-Kent-Saenz-Cruz, or a couple of other variations featuring Ledee and Choi, has clicked.

I gave up the ghost last Friday, but if we gain a game tonight, I think we're back in it.

Postseason chances up to 3.9%!

Padres magic number stalled at 15!

Not to go Star Wars on anyone but it seems Luke is a bit confused. It's that evil Lord Sidious again....doing things for the glory of the republic (boras)

Daily News again:

It was clear, though, that Boras still believed Sosnick engaged in questionable practices, a charge Eli Iorg disputed in a written, signed statement the Daily News obtained on Monday.

"Matt at no point in time badgered Luke or did anything ... illegal," the statement read. "The way Luke has acted in the last few weeks is, in my opinion, a cause of his agent Scott Boras. ... All I know is, I have seen a close friend of mine do things which I wouldn't have believed a month ago and act in a manner which is unbelievable."

So Scott Boras isn't Luke's father?

Not content with his millions, Eric Karros is still taking it out on Hee Seop Choi.

it's the old (sith)jedi mind trick

Did anyone else notice last night after the game that Jim Tracy gave Weaver a hug and told him he'd be back next year? It was right befroe they went in the dugout. If you have tivo or a DVR I suggest you check it out.

He must be allowed to speak.

I must be allowed to speak

You will not sign your contract now

I will not sign my contract now.

You serve your master well.

I serve my master well

And you will be rewarded.

And I will be rewarded

353 - Man, Eric Karros is annoying.

By the way, the Cubs gave up on Dontrelle Willis - he must stink.

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