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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Curb the Road Rage
2005-09-14 09:10
by Jon Weisman

Rockies-Dodgers, 7:10 p.m.

Padres-Giants, 12:35 p.m.

Southern League Championship Series - Game 2, 4:05 p.m.

* * *

It's a wonder that there aren't more traffic accidents in this town with half the people seeing green when the other half sees red.

As it happens, I'm color-blind, so the green traffic light looks white to me. I'm going through the intersection on faith. It's a dangerous place - not the place to drive angry. And even I can see red when it's right in front of me.

I continue to be mystified by the need to pin the Dodgers' misfortune on a single villain, when there are so many reasons for the 2005 calamities. The devil is not in our midst, folks. People, writers and readers, shouldn't act like he is.

Front offices make bad decisions. Managers make mistakes. Players get hurt or lose the plate or the ball. Umpires make bad calls. It all happens. This year, it all happened. Going forward, hopefully, people will learn how to do better.

This could actually be a fun time, with the toe-tripping Dodgers trying to rally in the final minutes to win their tiny conference tournament and the right to play Duke in the first round of March Madness. We could all be rallying behind our Big Bumbling Wrecking Crew. Instead, we're fighting each other. I guess that's democracy, baseball style.

But I think we've blown off enough steam for a thousand kettles. I realize that somehow a fight for the past, present and future of the organization seems to be at stake every night, but maybe for at least one night, we need to just let the baseball game be the baseball game. Pretend it's Little League - because in a way, it is - and be the good Little League parents, not the bad. Maybe we could do that tonight.

Update: By the way, despite what I wrote in the last paragraph, this post is by no means directed only at the readers of this site. It's for everyone.

* * *

Update 2: As many noticed, all three Dodger outfielders made errors in the second inning Tuesday.
"It's the fifth time since 1972 that the Dodgers turned this trick," Keith Woolner of Baseball Prospectus writes, "and 16th time since 1972 that any team has. Other than the Dodgers, only the Giants (twice) have done it more than once in that span."

* * *

Update 3: The 911 calls by Milton Bradley and his wife, Monique, relating to their domestic confrontations are reported on today by Larry Altman of the Daily Breeze. (Thanks to L.A. Observed for the link.)

Comments (862)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2005-09-14 09:48:51
1.   Bob Timmermann
So what do you see at this site?

What do you see here?

2005-09-14 09:55:12
2.   Jon Weisman
I can't do tinyurls at work.
2005-09-14 10:00:34
3.   Bob Timmermann


2005-09-14 10:05:44
4.   Jon Weisman
First one:

25 an extremely faint 29?
? a faint 56
? ?


Second one:

smidgen of a 6, 48 and 5
and a smile
and Jim Colburn needs to be more careful about pickpockets

2005-09-14 10:06:27
5.   Bob Timmermann
What is in Jim Colborn's back pocket?
2005-09-14 10:08:35
6.   Jon Weisman
A wallet or Zagat's Guide to Pitchers?
2005-09-14 10:08:58
7.   Marty
His diary?
2005-09-14 10:09:48
8.   Marty
As far as being nicer, I'm pro-labor. So I want everyone to keep their job 8^)
2005-09-14 10:12:36
9.   Bob Timmermann
Maybe the thing in Jim Colborn's back pocket is what was in the suitcase in "Pulp Fiction".
2005-09-14 10:16:35
10.   Marty
Hmmm...I don't see Colburn as Jules Winfield
2005-09-14 10:16:49
11.   Loogy
I'm semi-colored blind. (pastels mostly) Old feelings of trauma still recur every time I see one of those color charts.
2005-09-14 10:20:08
12.   Identity Crisis
11. ha...same here. I worked at Stater Brothers a few years ago and had tons of fun when people would tell me to get " a (insert color) pack of cigarettes" and I tried to play it off that I could actually tell the difference.
2005-09-14 10:25:31
13.   Sam DC
Thanks for this post Jon. Missed most of the game last and when I read the comments this morning I found myself pretty burned out on usual raft of gripes. Was even planning to kvetch in a comment of my own, but then I got to where Bob and others had already done so. I hope folks carefully read what you've clearly written here, and do not just fire back about it being somehow not OK on Dodger THoughts to criticize either particular decisions or particular actors.

Anyhow, last night I commented about the announcer's call of some crazy throwing error by Mets' catcher Ramon Castro on a Cristian Guzman bunt. To close the loop, today, the Wash Post says the throw was into left field and says the throw was over the First Baseman's head. Either someone's mistaken or that really was one crazy bad throw . . .

2005-09-14 10:25:40
14.   Midwest Blue
Comments on today's Plaschke offering?
2005-09-14 10:25:49
15.   GoBears
Hmm, don't know what Jon's post is referring to - looks like I picked a good week to lose my DSL connection. It's back now, so I'll go back and peruse...

Here's a (hopefully short enough) Joe Sheehan comment on the Dodgers from BP:

"I'm sympathetic to the impact injuries have had on the Dodgers' 2005 season. They have been flat-out crippled, as Mike Groopman's stats tell us, and there's no evaluation of the team that can realistically ignore what the injuries have done to them. (Offer not valid in the Los Angeles Times.)

With that said, you have to also consider that the Dodgers have given Jason Phillips, an awful player, 400-odd plate appearances..."

2005-09-14 10:26:10
16.   Telemachos
It pains me to think of the various games this year that the Dodgers have thrown away (be it poor managerial decisions, horrible pitching, un-clutch at-bats, etc).

Can we come up with a top 5? I'm still astounded we're even in the race, but if we had played/been coached better in just a few games, think of the difference.

For me, the first one that pops to mind is the meltdown in Arizona, when Duaner threw his glove at the ball, then shortly thereafter gave up a game-tying home-run to the pitcher.

2005-09-14 10:28:37
17.   still bevens
15 re: Phillips. How much better would Bako have been if he was available? I dont know much about the guy..

16 Im not sure if this fits the criteria, but getting owned by Jose Lima in KC was about as bad as it got for me this season.

2005-09-14 10:30:46
18.   Kayaker7
17 I don't think we would have seen Bako at first base.
2005-09-14 10:31:28
19.   Kayaker7
Not only the ownage by Lima, but the Royal Flush sweep was the beginning of the end.
2005-09-14 10:32:02
20.   Sam DC
So, Bob, I guess SF still holding its lineup (on a day when it seems like the Barry might rest) supports your marketing-based lineup-timing theory.
2005-09-14 10:35:16
21.   D4P

What makes you so sure? Bako fits perfectly into Tracy's ABC* Plan at 1B.

* Anyone But Choi

2005-09-14 10:36:02
22.   Bob Timmermann
I thought the lowest point was losing the Sunday night game to the White Sox. That really messed up the season.

For one, I think that was the game where Tracy lost confidence in Choi playing the field. Despite the fact that the runner was out anyway on the play and the umpire missed the call.

The image of Kent chewing out Choi in the dugout was sort of a storm warning. And then the White Sox stealing bases and getting sacrifices and Joe Morgan and Gary Thorne anointing Ozzie Guillen as the new King of Managers was hard to take for me.

The other game that was bad was the home game when Ryan Freel stole five bases off of the Dodgers. That brought up Navarro to catch and then Tracy believed that Phillips needed to stay in the lineup and so he played first base.

However, just as it's hard to blame one person, it's hard to pick one game as being the worst. If you read the New York papers, every time the Yankees win a game in the late innings it's always "this is the game when the Yankees turn the season around." Then they usually go and lose the next day.

It's all a series of events that are intertwined and tangled up more than the cords to my iPOD earphones after they've been in my pocket all day.

2005-09-14 10:41:04
23.   Jim Tracy
16 The White Sox game with the Pierzynski walk off homerun is my foremost traumatic memory from this season. Bottom of the 9th, 2 outs, we're up 3-1 and we give up 4 runs to the White Sox. That was the beginning of the end as far as Brazoban was concerned. That was only his 3rd blown save and dropped his record to 2-2. It was the first blown save for him this season where the Dodgers lost the game (they won the other two times before that). Since then, a 2-6 record with a 7.81 ERA, not to mention the fact that Braz pees in his pants if you mention Ryan Howard.
2005-09-14 10:42:41
24.   Bob Timmermann
The earliest date that the Dodgers can be eliminated on, according to a very crude calculation, would be September 21. That would require the Dodgers to lose 7 in a row and the Padres win a similar number and would put the Dodgers 12 out with 11 to play.

The Cardinals can clinch the NL Central today if they win and the Astros lose. I think they clinch a playoff spot with a win.

2005-09-14 10:43:32
25.   Jon Weisman
22 - Great post.


This game extended the Dodgers' faith in Scott Erickson while symbolizing how frail the team's pitching really was in May, at a time when the Dodgers were mostly healthy - allowing the punchless Nationals to score six runs in the final three innings.

2005-09-14 10:45:16
26.   Jim Tracy
16, 19, 22 - So, was that week the beginning of the end for this season - swept by Royals and White Sox, especially the two crushing losses to the Sox. And this was right after I sincerely believed that Choi had turned some kind of corner and would become a 30-35 homerun guy for the Dodgers (the weekend with Minnesota).
2005-09-14 10:48:09
27.   Xeifrank
GMs and managers have many tough decisions to make over the course of a year. Many of those decisions can turn out to be wrong, by just dumb luck or many can turn out to be wrong by just being plain old DUMB. Same thing with players. Getting thrown out trying to take an extra base, or trying to get the lead runner out on bunt attempt can all go wrong.

Some of the decisions a GM has to be held accountable for are, 1) Does the team have enough talent to succeed. 2) Are the contracts given out reasonable in the sense that they don't strap the team financially, given the risk of the player involved and other alternatives that may have been reasonably available. 3) Is there a good plan in place to develop players from within the farm system and to not block the paths of top prospects unless warranted.

I would say this team at the beginning of the season easily had enough talent to win the NL West and to possibly make some noise in the playoffs. It obviously is not a championship calibur team. I don't think there are any contracts that DePodesta signed players to that have strapped our team. Lowe and OPerez do make quite a bit of money and are the only ones I would accept arguments to. But they aren't by any means hampering us the way Driefort or Shawn Green's contracts were/are. Our minor league system is one of the best, and there are no Adrian Beltre's or LoDuca's blocking the paths of our top prospects. One common argument from the MSM is that Drew is brittle and therefore too great a risk for his contract. Perhaps, but we just don't know that yet. His injury was not due to his body breaking down, which is what he was maligned for. He was hit by a 90mph pitch on a small bone in his wrist. Anyone's hand could've broke. He didn't miss significant time due to his body breaking down. His injury was unfortunate but unfortunately a part of the game and the risk all players have of getting hurt. DePodesta's only possible major flaw this year has been not to force upon his manager playing the players he wants him to. To some, this may not be a flaw to some others it is. And we don't have enough info on the McCourt/Depo/Tracy relationship to make a judgement on this. I give our GM a pass, and go collect $200.

Now let's move on to the manager. What is his job? I will just try to look at the on field stuff (the important things). 1) The manager decides which players start each game and sets the lineup. 2) The manager is in charge of "in game strategy", which includes when to bunt, when and who to pinch hit, where to station his defense, when to pull pitchers and which pitcher to bring in, when to steal/hit n run and a few other things similiar to these. I think most of us would agree that Jim Tracy does not start his best offensive players. Examples would be Choi and APerez, and sometimes Saenz when Phillips starts at 1B. Jim Tracy's excuses for doing so have not been adequate. His best excuse is that he is trying to put out the best defense, but I have to see anyone back up his point that by starting Phillips at first and Edwards or Valentin at third saves us more runs than what we lose by having them bat. But what was Tracy's excuse for starting Phillips at first? It was his batting average with RISP!! Or he thought the arm angle of a certain Padre pitcher would make it tough for Choi to hit! Come on! This is hogwash. I've heard better lies and excuses coming from a 3 year old on why they didn't brush their teeth. Then there was the early season poor pitching management. Keeping pitchers like Weaver or Erickson in WAY too long when they obviously either didn't have it (in Erickson's case) or were tired (in Weaver's case). We probably lost half a dozen or so games in the first half of the season to the lack of pitching management. Then there is my little pet peeve about not using our best relief pitcher in non save situations. I know other managers do this too, but that doesn't mean you should dump your oil in the street drain just because you saw your neighbor do it. Then Tracy has the audacity to bunt with MB our 2nd best hitter at the time and in doing so take the bat out of not only his hands but of Jeff Kent's (our best hitter's). There were many situations like this, too numerous to mention all of them, perhaps Steve keeps them in an excel spreadsheet? Then last night, oh that was a real doozy. Just read last nights posts, I assume you don't need a re-hash. Sure, Jim Tracy has done some good things. I hear he is quite the piano player and knows how to fix a squeeky chair with the best of em. It is my opinion that Jim Tracy's poor decisions are not based on dumb luck, rather they are based on dumbness. I don't give Tracy a pass, and send him to jail with no get out of jail card.

The players on the otherhand are just players. They all try their best when called upon by the manager. Go Dodgers!

vr, Xei

2005-09-14 10:49:05
28.   molokai
Wish we had a Francisco Liriano.
He has now struck out 9 of the first 13 batters he's faced. 9 of the last 12 after giving up a home run to the 1st batter he ever faced. Just stopped the game because of game. Crap

Jon has a point. I have a brother who is oblivious to any of the players. He just likes to go to the game and watch it. His ignorance is bliss and I'm sure he enjoys the game more then I do because I over analyze everything. I used to be embarrassed to take him to a game because he was so ignorant of the complexities of the game but now I admire his childlike enjoyment of the game.

2005-09-14 10:50:21
29.   fawnkyj
The worst game this season for me was the one were Wunsch was warming up to face Helton in Colorado and he messes up his ankle. After that i knew it was not our year. Too much had happened.

But all these injuries have been a blessing in a way. Ok maybe blessing is not the right word but looking at how Brazoaban and Duaner have pitched of late. And how Dioner and Aybar has looked too are definitely bright spots to all of the weirdness this year.

2005-09-14 10:50:24
30.   Telemachos
I'm not trying to isolate a "worst game", just trying to look at a few ones where, had we taken care of business, we'd be much, much closer to first (or already in first).

Blowing that White Sox lead was bad. Losing all 3 to the Royals was bad. Getting owned by the Reds was bad.

I know every team has its share of "games we should have won" but the Dodgers have been particularly good (bad?) at finding novel ways of losing.

2005-09-14 10:54:30
31.   Jon Weisman
27, 28 - I'm not saying abandon your beliefs or your senses. I'm just saying a) it's unfortunate that people see things so differently and b) no matter how awful you think someone is, he remains one person in a cast of many and c) it doesn't change that misfortune to say the same things over and over and over again.

So that'll hopefully be the last time I say that.

2005-09-14 10:56:00
32.   Bob Timmermann
Random Dodger Game Callback

September 14, 1898

Probably few of the people who bothered to show up at Washington Park in Brooklyn on this day realized how famous some of the players would become in the future. They just saw tenth place Brooklyn lose to ninth place Louisville 7-2. Brooklyn dropped to 46-71 on the season, 31 ½ games behind first place Boston.

Brooklyn's lineup featured Fielder Jones in right field, who would go on to manage the 1906 Chicago White Sox to a World Series championship, and pitcher Jack Dunn, who would become known as the minor league manager who gave Babe Ruth his start in pro ball. A 39-year old front office employee, Charlie Ebbets, managed Brooklyn.

Louisville had player-manager Fred Clarke, a future Hall of Famer, who would manage the Pittsburgh Pirates to four pennants and one World Series title. Dummy Hoy (who was deaf) was in center fielder and was one of the 19th Century's greatest stars, and lived to be 99 to boot. And starting at third base this day was 24-year old John Peter Wagner, who would go down in history as Honus Wagner. Louisville's starting pitcher was Bert Cunningham, who holds the major league record for most wild pitches in an inning, five.

Dunn gave up six runs to Louisville in the first three innings and left early. Reliever Kit McKenna finished up and yielded only a single run in the seventh inning. Louisville had 15 hits on the day to just seven for Brooklyn.

Brooklyn would finish the season in tenth place with a 54-91 record, 46 games behind Boston. Brooklyn was eleventh in the 12-team National League in runs scored, ahead of only last place St. Louis, which went 39-111.

Jones and center fielder Mike Griffin were about all that the Brooklyn offense had to offer. Griffin batted .300 and Jones hit .304. Rookie left fielder Jimmy Sheckard hit. 277 and after that the rest of the starters were in the .220-.240 range. Brooklyn catcher Jack Ryan would hit .189, but make up for it by saving the United States from terrorists and nuclear annihilation. Some people said he looked like Alec Baldwin, others said Harrison Ford, but contemporary accounts think he looked more like Ben Affleck.

The pitchers weren't very good and the lack of run support didn't help. Dunn went 16-21 with a 3.60 ERA. Brickyard Kennedy was 16-22 with a 3.37 ERA. Brooklyn welcomed a pitcher named Welcome Gaston, but he pitched just twice in 1898 and twice again in 1899 before he was no longer welcome in the majors. Welcome was his real first name.

As bad as Brooklyn was in 1898, the team would improve by 47 wins the next year, the biggest improvement in franchise history. Of course, some of the shadiest business practices in baseball's history would account for that improvement.

Thanks to the New York Times, Baseball-reference, and Retrosheet.

2005-09-14 10:57:02
33.   Kayaker7
31 So that'll hopefully be the last time I say that.

Ah, that's okay if you repeat it many more times. The Anti-Tracy faction, of which I'm a member, have been spouting the same critiques over and over. It's good therapy. ;-)

2005-09-14 10:59:41
34.   molokai
I understand what your saying Jon but if I had my druthers I'd rather be the wide eyed little leaguer who just enjoyed the game and didn't know squat about it then the old cynic I've become because I know to much about it. It would be easier for my state of mind to forget roto, forget sabermetrics, forget betting, and just enjoy the beauty of the game. That will be my goal tonight when I take my 4 brothers and assorted nephews and nieces as we invade Chavez Ravine as a family for the last time ever.
2005-09-14 11:01:34
35.   fawnkyj
30- Oh gotcha!

Well then i would have to agree it was the game were we got spanked by Lima.

2005-09-14 11:04:34
36.   Xeifrank
I don't see what's wrong with holding the manager accountable for his decisions. We wouldn't harp on it so often, if it didn't occur so often. Perhaps the topic annoys some people, but it's an uglieness that can't be ignored too easily. I ass-u-me all of us want the Dodgers to succeed, that is something we should all have in common. And if you love this team, you get upset and want to point out things you feel are wrong and that can be fixed. I really enjoy all the talk about which prospects might be starting for us in 2006/2007 and beyond. Or which free agents would help us out next year. But when your shoe has a rock in it, you feel the pain and voice your displeasure until the rock is removed. vr, Xei
2005-09-14 11:05:26
37.   Steve
To the two turning-point games that Bob identfied, I would add the Brad Penny v. St. Louis game in May. That horrible outing was the pebble that started the avalanche.
2005-09-14 11:06:15
38.   Xeifrank
34. To me, that's what synchronized swimming is for. :) vr, Xei
2005-09-14 11:11:43
39.   Steve
Given Update 2, I guess I'll add last night's game to the Kent Mercker No-Hitter on my list of "embarrassing events I saw in person"
2005-09-14 11:12:08
40.   werthgagne31
an article about tracy, i can believe someone could defend tracy so much.,1,3453042.column?coll=la-headlines-sports-mlb-dodger

2005-09-14 11:13:11
41.   werthgagne31
ooopppsss, i meant can't in 40
2005-09-14 11:13:44
42.   Jim Tracy
I know it is impossible to blame one person for the Dodgers' poor season, but for the sake of argument, let's say you can name one player who you can blame a lot of Dodgers woes on, who would that player be?? I wouldn't take injuries into account, so I'd rule out someone like JD Drew who was playing well before he got injured. The most obvious person I can think of, and I hate saying this because I really liked him coming into the season, is Yhency Brazoban. The Pierzynki game, the Ryan Howard games.. he has 7 losses since the middle of June to his name which is a lot for a reliever/closer. Other suspects... Phillips, O. Perez. Oh, and you can't name Tracy, Depo or Frank/Jamie.
2005-09-14 11:15:33
43.   Jim Tracy
Jon, is this the fifth time that all three OFs had an error in a game or in an inning?
2005-09-14 11:16:07
44.   Jim Tracy
Sorry if it isn't clear... 43 refers to update 2.
2005-09-14 11:16:48
45.   werthgagne31
cesar izturis
2005-09-14 11:17:30
46.   Jon Weisman
43 - inning
2005-09-14 11:18:10
47.   Xeifrank
42. I can't blame any of the players, since they all try their hardest. I could blame the GM for having them on the team, or the manager for misusing them, but not the player. Having said that, let me contradict myself by saying Scott Erickson, not because of his poor performance but for his attitude of blaming others for it. vr, Xei
2005-09-14 11:19:46
48.   Jim Tracy
45 Yeah I forgot about Izzy. Can you imagine if he hadn't had the all-star batting average during the first couple of months this season? I wonder if his numbers would have been Christian Guzman-bad.
2005-09-14 11:20:57
49.   Jim Tracy
47 But Jeff Kent would disagree with you :)
2005-09-14 11:22:33
50.   JeffinTokyo
I can explain why I pin the Dodgers' misfortune on one donkey. It comes from being a consultant. We are taught to go after the low hanging fruit in the initial stage of the project. Focus on the most obvious needs first. Then, once you have adressed the crucial problems, you can focus on the less glaring problems.

Firefighters have the same approach.

So, what one move would shore up the Dodgers for the future? Well, since McCourt can't be fired, that leaves JT.

He may be a great guy, he may be a nice family man, and he may even be a decent manager. However, all throughout 2005 (not to mention in years past), he has made baffling decisions, both before and during the game, that have hurt the Dodgers in the short and long run.

The short run damage is obvious and well documented, in that he has made moves (or not made moves) that directly led to Dodger defeats. As for the long run, he has stifled the development of Choi and Perez. With the J-ville stars on the way, do we really want Tracy with his Phillipsian tendencies behind the wheel?

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2005-09-14 11:22:35
51.   Jon Weisman
42 - Even Gagne loses three games a year. Eight losses is far from ideal for Brazoban, but given the way he has been used, I don't think it's extraordinary. Other pitchers give up runs and then get the opportunity to be rescued.

45 - seems clear Izturis was playing hurt, like Shawn Green in 2003.

48 - Yes, if you take out a player's good months and only count his bad months, his numbers will look bad.

2005-09-14 11:27:54
52.   Steve
Changing the subject, I think the most immediate, pulsating, red-lined, question mark is Jayson Werth. Choi and Perez are question marks, but they are self-inflicted question marks and we get whatever we deserve in 2006 from them. With Werth, he has played every day, showed brief flashes but also a lot of failure, has Ked 100+ times now. One can still see the potential, but a corner outfielder slugging sub-.400 doesn't cut it either.

I don't know.

2005-09-14 11:28:15
53.   Xeifrank
I don't want someone with Phillipsian tendancies behind the wheel. Those people really shouldn't be allowed to drive. Great post by the way! :) vr, Xei
2005-09-14 11:28:55
54.   Jim Tracy
51 about izturis, this is more than half the season... it's not like an 0-25 stretch that players go through. also, the playing hurt bit... I hated when Green's performance was excused by a lot of people because he played hurt. if you cannot contribute, you shouldn't play and if you are playing, you have to do better than the league's worst player.

As far as Brazoban, I agree with you about the loss-number not being extraordinarily high, it's just that those were some of our most crushing losses, as I guess most reliever's losses would be. Still, he is easily the player I am most disappointed in, especially given all the expectations that he brought in this season.

2005-09-14 11:29:12
55.   Bob Timmermann
Last night, people attributed the following mistakes to Jim Tracy:
1) bad lineup choices
2) not having someone to relieve Edwin Jackson soon enough
3) using Antonio Perez as a pinch runner
4) not pinch hitting for Jason Phillips
5) using Giovanni Carrara for more than 2 innings
6) starting Oscar Robles
7) Jayson Werth being a bad outfielder
2005-09-14 11:31:31
56.   Steve
52 -- I meant played every day not counting his DL stays.
2005-09-14 11:31:52
57.   Monterey Chris
Dodgers Team ERA since Jon issued the Roadrunner Challenge: 2.50

Unfortunately, Jackson's ERA since Jon issued the Roadrunner Challenge: 33.75

2005-09-14 11:32:59
58.   Jon Weisman
51 - Give me a society that values people saying they're too hurt to play, and I'm with you 100 percent. Instead, we live in a society in which I find myself defending J.D. Drew because he didn't limp to the plate in the ninth inning of a game.
2005-09-14 11:33:51
59.   molokai
Willie Davis did it in one inning all by himself. A world series no less. At least that is the legend.
2005-09-14 11:34:45
60.   Monterey Chris

Tracy was also criticized two hours before the game started as being a manager who would never take his starter out in the second inning, even if down by 6 runs. Rather ironic as the night developed.

2005-09-14 11:34:54
61.   Jon Weisman
57 - Yeah. Back to the drawing board.
2005-09-14 11:35:13
62.   molokai
Then our series drought would go all the way back to 81 instead of 88 and maybe further because I'm sure Fernando was hurting when he kept going out there inning after inning against the Expo's.
2005-09-14 11:35:34
63.   Xeifrank
52. Werth at best should be a 4th OFer. My feeling now is that he should be pushed back to #4 or #5 on the depth chart by the offseason signing of CruzJr and either Giles/Matsui. I'm not sure what Depo's plan and backup plan are for our outfield now that MB looks to be out of the picture. Of already signed players for 2006 (ass-u-ming MB is gone) Werth is #2 on the depth chart. We don't seem to have many prospects that are outfielders, some might have to change positions? I still wouldn't be upset if we went after Adam Dunn. Of course we might need a different manager to play him in LF.
vr, Xei
2005-09-14 11:36:02
64.   JeffinTokyo
Xeifrank thanks
1) agree
2) marginal
3) definitely
4) most definitely
5) lucked out thanks to Osorio
6) no problem here. maybe could've been moved down in the lineup.
7) Dick Schoefield's fault
2005-09-14 11:37:01
65.   molokai
We are not going to sign Giles or Matsui. Matsui will not leave the Yankee's and if Giles signs on the West Coast it will be back with the Padres. We are not going to throw a bunch of money at an old outfielder.
Let's deal in reality.
2005-09-14 11:38:10
66.   Monterey Chris
GM is also in charge of hiring the manager. After one year with Tracy, DePo signed him to a 2-year contract.
2005-09-14 11:38:24
67.   Xeifrank
55. 4,3,1 in that order for me last night. I didn't care or comment about the others. I didn't like Myrow starting over Choi at 1B, if that goes under your #1 then move that up to the top of my list.
vr, Xei
2005-09-14 11:39:23
68.   ryu
51, 58
Gibson limped to the plate in '88
2005-09-14 11:39:53
69.   Jon Weisman
62 - Everything by degrees. A game in October is different from a game in June, both in level of importance and the amount of time you have to recover.
2005-09-14 11:40:28
70.   Yakface
2005-09-14 11:40:43
71.   Steve
Dick Schofield, that bastard
2005-09-14 11:41:00
72.   Jon Weisman
68 - you must realize I'm aware of that.
2005-09-14 11:44:16
73.   Xeifrank
65. Like someone posted yesterday, you don't really know that because you don't know either player personally. :) Seriously, perhaps you are right. If Giles wants anything more than a 3 year deal, then that would definitely raise a red flag. If the Pads want to sign him to a 4 year deal then by all means let them. Giles does have the highest VORP of any player in the NL West (correct me if i am wrong) this year. He would fit nicely into our lineup. Choi, Kent, Drew & Giles would be a fearsome foursome. It may take some creative trades in the offseason to plug our OF holes if we aren't able to sign one of the big boys.
vr, Xei
2005-09-14 11:44:59
74.   still bevens
52 Werth is a big question mark this season, but Im totally convinced that if we give him up, he'll catch fire and make us regret it. But conversely, maybe another club would see this too and be willing to trade us something decent in return.
2005-09-14 11:45:45
75.   Sam DC
58 Has the Frank Robinson/John Patterson smack down surfaced out there? It's ridiculous, Robinson calling out his best (or close) pitcher in the papers for saying he was too sick to pitch and pushing his start back three days.
2005-09-14 11:46:00
76.   Steve
Werth is a big question mark this season, but Im totally convinced that if we give him up, he'll catch fire and make us regret it.

Exactly. It's that nagging feeling that there's something there.

2005-09-14 11:46:13
77.   JeffinTokyo
These days, I'd prefer a society where people admit when they are hurting others.
2005-09-14 11:48:52
78.   Bob Timmermann
Signs of the NL West pennant race:

The Padres are batting Ramon Hernandez third. They are starting Manny Alexander at shortstop.
The Giants are starting a 21-year old rookie pitcher (who did throw a great game the last time out though) and have Ray Durham batting cleanup.

2005-09-14 11:53:02
79.   JeffinTokyo
With the Dodger's on the virtual edge of elimination, shouldn't every game be played like a playoff tilt? I mean, aren't we in back against the wall, must win territory yet? If so, shouldn't we be pulling out all the stops? My point is, I don't want to see any 28 year old rookies in the lineup, and DJ better take the mound with a very short leash tonight.
2005-09-14 11:54:52
80.   werthgagne31
i know i'm beating a dead horse, but i'm still gonna do it.
we all agree kent is probably going to be gone in 2007, so we need to find out who is his replacement, robles is 30ish years old and not the solution, so lets give both aybar and antonio perez at bats for competition to be kent's sucessor, from here on out the dodgers should start both aybar and perez on the left side of the infield, aybar 3b perez ss or aybar ss perez 3b, and the same goes for the first half of next year till guzman is ready for ss and we can trade izturis.

also the dodgers should just stomach bradley's attitude, we need 3 good starting outfielders (giles,bradley,drew) and even more important we need 3 good backup outfielders (werth,ledee,cruz) in case of injuries for 2006, i don't want to see anymore repko, cody ross types filling in when injuries occur.

also i don't want to see anymore fill in starting pitchers like jackson or any invited to spring training washed up guys like erickson.

also in my opinion loogys are a waiste of a spot on the roster, i hope wunsch is not back next year, do you ever see a loogy brought in when gagne is on the mound, did you ever see a loogy brought in when mota was on the mound, i don't follow other teams, but i would bet there are plenty of teams without loogys.
houlton can fill in if an injury occurs to a starter, osoria fills in for houlton in the bullpen.

2005-09-14 11:55:41
81.   ryu
72. So in your opinion sending up Gibson was a mistake?
2005-09-14 11:56:34
82.   D4P

There's a decent chance Kent will be gone in 2006 as well.

2005-09-14 11:59:34
83.   Jon Weisman
The Dodgers without rookies:

Phillips, C
Choi, 1B
Kent, 2B
Valentin, SS
Saenz, 3B
Ledee, LF
Werth, CF
Cruz, RF

Bench: Grabowski
Bullpen: Dessens, Carrara, Sanchez

That's it. Twelve guys.

2005-09-14 12:00:35
84.   JeffinTokyo
In 1993, John Candelaria at the tail end of his career, was the Dodgers LOOGY. I remember a game against the Giants when he made Barry look absolutely silly.

Jesse Orosco was still effective against lefties during a time when he should have been filling out his membership form for AARP.

If I were a manager, I would always have a spot on my team for a slinging lefty.

2005-09-14 12:01:18
85.   Steve

It was time in June to drop the pretense that this was a pennant race. It's beyond time now.

2005-09-14 12:05:22
86.   Jon Weisman
81 - Reread 69. For that matter, reread 58.

I find it amazing the things people read into what I write that just aren't there. I'm not criticizing people who limp to the plate. I never criticized Izturis for playing hurt, or Green, much less Gibson. I'm just saying people shouldn't criticize those who don't play hurt, because they have no way of knowing how much pain or jeopardy that player is in.

But I guess you really thought you caught me in something there.

2005-09-14 12:05:47
87.   Bob Timmermann
What about Penny, Weaver, and Lowe?
2005-09-14 12:06:50
88.   JeffinTokyo
85, I count 12. And anytime the 1st place team is the 1st place team is hovering around .500, the pennant is in play well beyond June, even if management threw in the towel.
2005-09-14 12:06:53
89.   molokai
Can't agree. Just because were a crappy team does not mean we were not in a pennant race. A win here and a win there we would be within breathing distance because our competition is also crappy. The Giants will prove that it is still a pennant race.
2005-09-14 12:07:35
90.   Midwest Blue
I was at the White Sox games cited as the nadir of the season. It sure felt that way when Pierzynski hit that home run. I was the only one sitting hwile the crowd acted like they just won the World Series.

I point to these Plaschke quotes from his article "Blue-Chip Investment":

"Tracy wants to be a lame duck for a rebuilding club run by a general manager who never listens to him?"

I think it's Tracy who never listens to DePo.

"He wants to go from managing the Dodgers to managing double-A Jacksonville to managing to get himself fired?"

Sounds good to me.

"Even his harshest critics must admit, he's not that dumb."


"Frank and Jamie McCourt like him."

Like someone posted yesterday, you don't really know that because you don't know either person personally.

"They like how he has remained a portrait of class and consistency this season when injuries and awful personnel moves have depleted his team again."

Did you say a picture of crass and inconsistency?

"He has never embarrassed them, he has quietly taken many shots for them, and the McCourts' best investment recently endorsed him."

He may not have embarrassed the McCourts but he's certainly embarrassed the fans.

"By rebuilding with cheap minor leaguers instead of expensive free agents, the Dodgers could get worse before they get better."

HUH?!? Go ahead and throw money at the problem, sacrifice your farm system. It's worked for George.

"Winning another division championship will take time. Tracy deserves that time."

Isn't this statement inconsistent with the previous statement?

2005-09-14 12:08:45
91.   Jon Weisman
83 - One of those can start if Houlton is not permitted. But 79's post had D.J. starting.
2005-09-14 12:09:03
92.   still bevens
82 He said as much in an interview the other day. Something about how if the Dodgers 'go young' in 2006 that that flies in the face of what management told him what their plan was and that he'd go somewhere else. Does he have such a clause in his deal and what would Depo have to do to make sure he stays?
2005-09-14 12:11:23
93.   Steve
The Dodger organization has bought into Plaschke hook, line, and sinker. I don't understand what he still has to complain about.
2005-09-14 12:11:42
94.   Jon Weisman
"Like someone posted yesterday, you don't really know that because you don't know either person personally."

This line is getting old fast. Evidence: it's getting used even when the person being discussed does know the other people personally.

What's most interesting about Plaschke's column today, I'll say, is this.

2005 - bad year because not enough home-grown players

2006 - bad year because too many home-grown players

2005-09-14 12:13:30
95.   JeffinTokyo
91. Jon, please notice, I said I don't want 28 year old rookies. I was referring specifically to Myrow and Edwards.
2005-09-14 12:13:57
96.   D4P

Whether or not he has such a clause, it probably would not behoove Depo to keep Kent against his will. Regarding "what Depo would have to do to make Kent stay," the general answer is to "put together a team that Kent thinks has a relatively good chance of winning a championship." I have a hard time believing that, in Kent's mind, a team full of stopgaps and rookies would qualify.

2005-09-14 12:14:47
97.   Bob Timmermann
Kent has a Gary Sheffield-like clause in his contract where he can choose to be a royal pain in the butt if he doesn't like what he sees.

It's unfair to single out Sheffield, but I was using a Dodgers example. Roger Clemens had a similar clause in Toronto.

2005-09-14 12:15:05
98.   Nagman
92 Yeah, the Kent article kinda scared me that he would consider asking for a trade. But realistically, that would imply that the Dodgers would trade away significant players. Is that plausible? Even if no changes are made, this would be practically the same team coming back.

Today's Plaschke article irritated me in that it implied Tracy had no other options in penciling Myrow at 1b.

2005-09-14 12:16:07
99.   molokai
Jump Jimmy Jump. Try your skills with the Red's and when your fired after two last place finishes your managerial career will be over.
The Brewers are rising. The Pirates have some of the best young pitching around and the Red's will have the worse pitching in baseball and they can do nothing about it.
2005-09-14 12:17:01
100.   Midwest Blue
Someone made a calculation the other day that the Dodgers could have up to $4 million in spending power next year, enough to acquire an outfielder or two, a starting pitcher and possibly a 3B or 1B. I think if DePo and McCourt actually did that, including using trades and extensions, that Kent would be placated.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2005-09-14 12:17:17
101.   Bob Timmermann

I think Tracy uses a pen.

2005-09-14 12:17:17
102.   Jon Weisman
95 - I know. But that makes sense if you're playing for the future. If it's a pennant race issue, it didn't make sense that 28-year-old rookies would be any worse than 24-year-old rookies.
2005-09-14 12:17:30
103.   Midwest Blue
100 Oops, I meant $44 million
2005-09-14 12:18:09
104.   ryu
86. Ok, I see what you mean. It was a misreading/misinterpretation on my part. Sorry.

Anyway, I agree with you re: playing through injuries.

2005-09-14 12:18:57
105.   JeffinTokyo
102. I would rather have a 25-yo third year player (Choi).
2005-09-14 12:19:14
106.   Steve
If I were Jeff Kent, I'd be asking for a trade too.
2005-09-14 12:21:46
107.   D4P
Do you think Kent would be willing to play with Bonds* again (with the Angels next year)?
2005-09-14 12:22:10
108.   Jon Weisman
105 - I would too. Anyway, my post in 83 was not directly responding to yours.
2005-09-14 12:22:41
109.   Nagman
101 I think Tracy uses crayon.
2005-09-14 12:23:04
110.   molokai
If I was Jeff Kent I would push for a trade. Next year might be his last real productive year and the Dodgers next year will not be competing for a World Championship. We will be better just because we can't have the same bad luck but with all the ??? marks he'd be better off playing 2nd base for the Cardinals or Red Sox or Yankee's or Met's.
He has a decent contract and I'd expect we'd get alot for him from these teams who need a 2nd baseman. Sounds like he'd be a perfect Yankee since they don't talk to each other anyway. I don't think the Red Sox would dare put him in the same dugoout with Manny.
2005-09-14 12:23:09
111.   Bob Timmermann
The chances of a Dodgers-Angels trade in the offseason are about as great as an Iran-Israel treaty of friendship.
2005-09-14 12:24:47
112.   Steve
I would ask for a trade because McCourt is going to follow Plaschke's advice.

107 -- You mean after the impending Finley and Cabrera for Bonds trade?

2005-09-14 12:25:25
113.   D4P
I only thought of the Angels because I thought Kent wanted to stay in the LA area.
2005-09-14 12:25:45
114.   molokai
I don't think Depo would be afraid of making a trade with the Angels but Stoneman is another matter.
2005-09-14 12:27:24
115.   Midwest Blue
I'd hate to see it but the logic makes sense. Kent should want to go to a team that will win it all next season and that's not us. What could we get for him (notthat I'm advocating it)?
2005-09-14 12:29:35
116.   JeffinTokyo
This blog is killing my sleep pattern. I just found out that in Japan, during the 4am hour, CNN es en espanol. Fortunately, I don't have to be in the office until 1pm.

But, I better retire.

To Jon, Bob, Steve, et al, consider my insomnia a compliment.

Oyasuminasai (good night)

2005-09-14 12:31:36
117.   ryu
115. Old and aging and looking for a ring? Sounds like a future Yankee.
2005-09-14 12:34:14
118.   Penarol1916
I would think that the Dodgers and Angels would be perfect trading partners. To me, differing philosophies in building make the most sense in exchanging what the other team would see as valuable, and both parties would come away thinking that they got the better of the deal.
Personally, if Kent want's to go, I wouldn't be crying in my Rice Chex, because 2nd base seems to be the one position where we have at least decent prospects ready to play, and with just one year left on his contract, he could get the Dodgers a decent return.
2005-09-14 12:37:15
119.   Jon Weisman
115 - Why all of a sudden can the Dodgers not win next season?

Drew and Gagne, among others, return. Navarro has arrived to replace Phillips. We're more aware of our shortcomings now than we were in 2004 and have the resources to solve many of them. Admittedly, things will look even better in 2007 when Jacksonville arrives, but we are hardly dead in the water for 2006.

If anything, one of the problems facing the Dodgers is that Kent is unlikely to be as good next year as he was this year. If anything, perhaps the Dodgers should be initiating the Kent trade talks while he is still at max value and with Antonio Perez able to step in.

Wait for it: Plaschke condemns Dodger trade of Kent.

2005-09-14 12:37:37
120.   Nagman
Let's hope if Kent goes it is during the off season and not around July 31st of next season because that would only imply bad things.

If Kent goes, he'd just go back to being for me what Russ Ortiz is to Bob -- that is, what he was before he became my baseball god in a Dodger uniform.

2005-09-14 12:37:39
121.   still bevens
Agreed. Plus his Giant past and his surly clubhouse disposition helps take the sting away.
2005-09-14 12:38:30
122.   Telemachos
I don't think the Yankees would go for Kent, since they seem quite happy with Robinson Cano at 2nd. Of course, Kent could also DH, but then again, most of the Yankee team is DHing right now.
2005-09-14 12:40:59
123.   molokai
If we trade Kent does MB have a chance at coming back? Just curious what the board thinks.
2005-09-14 12:43:58
124.   molokai
I don't think the Yankee's are that happy with Cano these days. Pitchers have adjusted and he's having some growing pains. He had a 207/252/261 line in August. That is Womack bad.
2005-09-14 12:44:30
125.   Midwest Blue
119 Jon, I haven't given up on next season yet. But, like you, I have a lot more confidence in 2007 than 2006. There will be a lot of key players coming off injuries and some guys hanging around who I think shouldn't be with the club anymore.

Bottom line: For the Dodgers to be competitive (at a HIGH level) next year, DePo will have to have a much better off-season and really TRULY fill the gaps, our injured will have to come back strong and Jim Tracy will have to either re-tool his management technique or leave. For me, if two of these three factors don't come through or get fixed, we are destined for another mediocre season. Sorry.

2005-09-14 12:47:52
126.   still bevens
125 ie: no Phillips's, no Valentin's, no Ericksons.
2005-09-14 12:48:38
127.   D4P

In order to make the 2006 as competitive as it can be, it would seem that Depo would have to make moves that would jeopardize 2007 and beyond, which he doesn't want to do. I really think that the "long-range plan" involves maximizing the success of 2007 forward, while making whatever moves possible to improve 2005-6 without jeopardizing the future. If that means putting a less-than-ideal team on the field for 2005-6, then that is a price Depo/McCourt are willing to pay, especially if they can still sell 40,000 tickets every night.

2005-09-14 12:49:26
128.   Penarol1916
My god, it looks like a retarded monkey typed my last message, want's, want's?
I refuse to speculate on where Kent could end up or what the ramifications would be unless something happens other than to say it wouldn't be all bad. Idle speculation always gets me into trouble.
2005-09-14 12:49:32
129.   Mark Linsey
The great thing about next year is not only might Drew and Gagne and others have healthier seasons, but even if there is another plague of injuries, the minor-league replacements should be better.

I hope that a big acquisition or two for the outfield or the rotation would be enough to convince Kent to stay. At minimum, I would hope we could convince him to stick around till the trade deadline, when not only would we probably get more for him but also some of our younger players would be that much closer to being able to fill his shoes.

2005-09-14 12:50:07
130.   DougS
Referring back to Jon's original posts: You are the voice of reason, as always, sir.

That having been said, I will officially declare that I, too, have come to the conclusion that Jim Tracy should not be managing this team next year. I began the year comfortable with him as manager of the Dodgers— he'd won a division title, after all and had a decent track record before that— but the way he's handled Choi and A. Perez this year is very troubling. He seems to have a leaden touch with young, developing players, and that is more disturbing to me than the odd tactical decisions. Given the coming exodus from Jacksonville to LA via Las Vegas, we need a manager who can work with youngsters much more than we need Adam Dunn, or Brian Giles or Kaz Matsui.

I think that Tim Brown put his finger on it in his Sunday column— that even after a handful of modestly successful years managing in the bigs, Tracy still seems like a guy who is always worried about having to prove himself. That insecurity has already affected the way he treats prospects; I think that's why he keeps Choi and Perez on such a short leash. He's too worried that their learning process will make him look bad in the short term.

As to who should replace him (a very reasonable question that Jon once posed)? I can't lay down any individuals I have in mind. Someone with a good record of managing at AAA or even AA might be best. Also, I recall that Lasorda used his outsized public persona as a way of drawing fire to him and away from his players. It would be nice to have someone who is more concerned with giving his players some breathing space and less concerned with making sure his own backside is covered.

2005-09-14 12:52:28
131.   blue22
125 - I don't see any other NL West clubs getting appreciably better next year, outside of the Giants possibly getting what constitutes a full year from Bonds these days. The rest of their roster looks old, and getting older. There isn't much help on the way (assuming Sabean doesn't continue his pattern of dumping young pitching for retread "veteran leadership", and actually decides to keep Cain).

The Padres look to fall back as well, assuming they lose Giles (though that gets Nady in there full time).

The DBacks are finally playing like the mediocrity they appear to be on paper.

The Rockies are on the rise, but not in the discussion yet.

The Dodgers should have the best bullpen, a rotation that should compete with SF's as being the division's best, a good OF, and assuming Choi and Perez play fulltime next year, an above average infield.

The bench looks to remain strong with a solid OF rotation, and the versatile Aybar as a utility infielder.

Give me a solid corner OF bat, and a league average starter or two, and I think you've got a division winner.

2005-09-14 12:52:50
132.   Paul B
121 Don't forget the stain of his Cal days (though maybe not all would share this concern...).

But I'm with have the '06 Dodgers become a lost cause already?

Incidentally...the whole push/ask for a trade people consider this a more genteel and appropriate step to take than, say, holding out to renogotiate one's contract? I realize there may be a matter of degree involved, but I'm not so sure a baseball player should get a pass on trying to force management's hand (a la the infamous "Operation Shutdown" proposed by Derek Bell). A player who asks to be traded because of alleged promises by ownership to field a championship team just seems like a case of that someone who wants his cake and, outrageously, want to eat it too.

2005-09-14 12:52:59
133.   Jon Weisman
Yes, in some ways, DePo could do better. But keep in mind that if you expect perfection, you're going to be disappointed - needlessly. I guarantee you the general manager of the 2005 World Series champions made some mistakes in constructing his 2005 roster.

And Phillips wasn't a mistake. Ishii was a dying pitcher, and DePo did well to get Phillips.

2005-09-14 12:55:12
134.   Bob Timmermann

Do you want a seriously unhappy Jeff Kent hanging around your team? A happy Jeff Kent is tough enough.

2005-09-14 12:55:58
135.   D4P

Do you want Phillips to return next year?

2005-09-14 12:57:00
136.   molokai
I can come up with a dozen reasons why we will not be competing for a WS next year but at the same time my wishy washy self can come up with a dozen reasons why we will be. Maybe I should change my moniker to Charlie Browwn.
2005-09-14 12:58:54
137.   molokai
Why does Philips continue to get blamed for JT playing him at 1st base. He filled a need and did a satisfactory job until Navarro was ready to step. That was the plan and that one worked. He's cheap and he has no options so unless we trade him he will be our backup catcher next year.
2005-09-14 13:00:45
138.   D4P
I blame Phillips for his .237/.288/.367/655 line.
2005-09-14 13:01:38
139.   Mark Linsey
We have a decent shot at the WS next year largely because the playoffs are such a crapshoot and we will have a good shot at winning the West.
2005-09-14 13:02:00
140.   molokai
Maybe you don't remember the line David Ross put up last year.
2005-09-14 13:03:06
141.   Jon Weisman
133 - At this point, I would be for keeping Phillips in the organization. The Dodgers have two fine young catchers, but catchers get hurt and neither has played a full major-league season. Phillips makes very little money. If he can be effectively replaced, by all means.

Do I think Phillips should start? No.

2005-09-14 13:03:25
142.   D4P

Oh, I remember. In fact, I'll never forget the Ross/Mayne debacle. But "being better than Ross" isn't the standard I would like for Depo to use.

2005-09-14 13:04:31
143.   blue22
138 - Phillips - .655 OPS
David Ross - .661 OPS
LoDuca - .740 OPS

It's tough to look at Ross vs. Phillips, and say that we want Phillips back.

Just threw LoDuca in there as a comparison, considering he's making $4.6M this year.

2005-09-14 13:06:38
144.   Paul B
134 Hey, Bob. I don't dispute the fact that denying a disgruntled player's request for a trade can be more trouble than it's worth, or that an already prickly personality might become downright rancorous and distracting (see, e.g. Sheffield, Gary). My question was more about whether it's appropriate for a player to take the stance in the first place.
2005-09-14 13:07:08
145.   blue22
140 - Yes Ross threw up a .544 OPS last year, but this year it's at .661 (higher than Phillips) and had an .892 OPS in '03.

Ross seems to be a much better catcher than anyone involved in the discussion too, with the exception possibly of Navarro.

2005-09-14 13:07:21
146.   GoBears
132 I'm casually ignoring your first comment.

I agree that Phillips is a good backup catcher, as long as he doesn't cause problems griping about more PT, and as long as we don't have a manager who wastes 1b ABs on him.

Here's an interesting tidbit from a BP chat with Chris Kahrl. I'm looking forward to the new feature she promises:

"Velez (Miami): Is a manager's job to win games, or to not lose game? It seems like I'm always noticing the mistakes managers make, but rarely am i aware of any 'brilliant' moves.

Christina Kahrl: It's an unfair balance by which we judge managers, because are usually more absorbed with nit-natting about their tactical indiscretions, and less generous when it comes to identifying how a manager may have created a great usage pattern for his regulars, for his bench, and for his bullpen. Activity, like going to the pen with a LaRussian obsessiveness, is often mistaken for genius. [emphasis added]

In that spirit, one of the new features we're hoping to add to next year's annual is a segment on managers, where we'll try to capture some of the things that the other manager stats don't reflect very well. Admittedly, such a thing is long overdue."

2005-09-14 13:07:42
147.   Bob Timmermann
I don't know if it's appopriate, but it's a fact of life in sports now and seems to be a new negotiating tool.
2005-09-14 13:08:31
148.   molokai
I was going to try to defend Philips by checking out the VORP for NL catchers and OMG he has been stinky bad. It is to bad that Depo didn't pick up a Javier Valentin or Kelly Stinnet instead.
2005-09-14 13:08:58
149.   blue22
146 - Phillips was addition by subtraction (read - bye bye Ishii), however as a backup catcher that can't hit (unless it's April, and there's a runner on 2nd) or play defense, I'm not sure what we see there.
2005-09-14 13:10:32
150.   D4P
I think we can (all?) agree that Tracy and Phillips cannot coexist. Actually, Tracy and "any relatively untalented stiff who can be plugged in at 1B instead of Choi" cannot coexist. One (or both) of them have to go.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2005-09-14 13:10:45
151.   still bevens
This is thinking ahead here, but whats in the future for the 51s? How many players on the Dodgers roster will wind up back in Vegas and how many folks (if any) come up from Jacksonville?
2005-09-14 13:12:18
152.   Paul B
147 I suppose that's true. I was surprised that it seemed like some folks were fine with the idea that Kent might take it upon himself to force/facilitate a trade. Of course, whether or not the Dodgers should look into trade possibilities of their own initiative is an entirely different question.
2005-09-14 13:14:01
153.   Paul B
146 I appreciate your restraint. :)
2005-09-14 13:17:08
154.   Bob Timmermann
Padres up on the Giants 1-0 after 2 1/2 on a single by Giles.
2005-09-14 13:23:16
155.   Nagman
Wow, Winn HR. He must be considered the best trade deadline acquisition.

Which side was the buyer and which side was the seller in that deal?

2005-09-14 13:24:28
156.   Xeifrank
79. I'm in complete agreement and have said the same thing in the past. From here on out until the day we are eliminated, that days game is the most important game of the season. It's no time to be starting 28 year old rookies when Choi/Saenz are both healthy. If you'd like to give the guy a start or some playing time, wait until after we are eliminated, or only use him as a pinch hitter when others have been used.

I thought the Plaschke article was laughable. What side of the fence you sit on in the "Fire Jim Tracy" debate seems a bit like the devisive political races we've had the past two elections. Each side thinks the other side is completely nuts. I personally liken Plaschke and his ilk to the likes of Michael Moore and Howard Dean. It would be fitting if Tracy were to get up on a stage and start screaming hysterically about how he and Jason Phillips were going to lead the team to the world series.
vr, Xei

2005-09-14 13:25:35
157.   DougS
I can see a Kent trade being a smart move for the same reason that the Dodgers used to trade older players under previous regimes: His personal quirks and 'team chemistry' aside, he's worth something now, and his value will only decline going forward. A decent starting pitcher could probably be gotten for him in the off-season, or perhaps a couple of promising younger players.

I'm comfortable with giving A. Perez or even Aybar a shot at 2nd next year. That would depend, though, on a more prospect-friendly manager being in place, or Tracy being effectively coerced into managing differently.

2005-09-14 13:28:51
158.   fawnkyj
I have to disagree, we will have competition next year in the west. The giants are getting younger it seems by the day. They are playing the youngsters and they have brought up Niekro, Linden, Cain. And uys like Ellison & Feliz, while they aren't exceptionally talented are much younger than than what they had.
They have gotten rid of Grissom, & they are SUPPOSSEDLY trying to rid themselves of Snow, Alfonzo & Bonds. I don't know how much of that will happen. Sabean may just be talking out of his @$$ but if he does get rid of one of old guys and gets one young guy they will be trouble for us.

They started their rebuilding project this year ours will start next year. So they are a step ahead. I dont fear the Padres, i dont think they can noticiably better, AZ can because of the prospects they have but they have too many guys blocking their paths.

I am kinda giddy think of how cool it would be if the giants and dodgers started to get younger and good at the same time.

Growing up I used to hate Robby Thompson, Will Clark, Brett Butler and Matt Williams. While giants fans hated our Orel Hershiser, Valenzuela and so on. We saw the same villains every game.

2005-09-14 13:29:19
159.   blue22
155 - Gave up Foppert/Torrealba to get him, so the Giants were the buyers. Seems like Sabean is in perennial buy mode.

The list of young pitchers that SF has given up recently is staggering, and they get back the likes of Pierzynski and Winn.

It must be nice knowing Bonds is there to cover up your mistakes.

2005-09-14 13:34:28
160.   fawnkyj
159- There was also the rumor of the Giants trading Cain for Ryan Howard floating around too.
2005-09-14 13:37:28
161.   blue22
I'm not impressed with any of the Giants young position players. Maybe someone more in tune with their minor league numbers could comment on their major league projections, but they look like middle-of-the-road stiffs to me.

Now, the pitching that has come through there recently is different, but they've traded everyone away except Cain. Merkin Valdex, Jerome Williams, Boof Bonser, Jesse Foppert, Joe Nathan, Francisco Liriano.

Even if you believe in TINSTAAPP, this is a bit ridiculous.

2005-09-14 13:40:01
162.   GoBears
158: Well, I think the Giants have been forced into playing young guys, as the preferred old guys get hurt over and over again.

And I'd also say that the Dodgers' rebuilding DID start this year. That's what the LoDuca and Green trades were about, anyway. In fact, other than Kent and Valentin as stop-gap FA signings, I think that all of DePo's moves have made the team younger.

2005-09-14 13:40:04
163.   Bob Timmermann
Lynn Swann is announcing himself as a candidate for governor in Pennsylvania as a Republican.

Have the people of Pennsyvlania ever listened to his sideline reports?

2005-09-14 13:40:20
164.   Midwest Blue

I'm in agreement with you. I think that everyone wants to ensure that many of our kids make it up in 2007 and that we don't do anything to jeopardize that. Which is why I think we'll get one maybe two FA's and be done with it. Which, when combined with JT coming back as his same old self, means we probably will not be dominant enough to go very far in the playoffs. And that's how I see it.

2005-09-14 13:44:05
165.   CanuckDodger
161 -- The Giants have not traded Merkin Valdez. But you have the right idea about their position player "prospects." Really, the Giants do not have anything close to a farm system that can be drawn on to rebuild, either next year or in a few years following after that.
2005-09-14 13:45:24
166.   fawnkyj
I dont think that Linden, Niekro, Feliz, or Ellison have star impact but collectively they are solid and young. And they are a step in front of the development of our studs. That is why i think next year they can be tough....

...but 2007 I think can be great for the blue IMO.

2005-09-14 13:47:44
167.   Penarol1916
156. And here I see it the other way around with Plaschke and Tracy trying to battle what they see as scientific/secular ideals freezing out their faith, ala "intelligent design" and refusing to believe that global warming may actually be happening. And their accolytes buying the values/character matters more than their economic interests, but that's just me, and perhaps trying to equate either political party with the side you see as dumb in this Tracy debate is an incredibly stupid thing to do, but since I'm not the one who started it, why not pile on to try to tweak some people.
2005-09-14 13:48:47
168.   Marty
163 That must(should) be a joke. Will he be dispensing "terrible towels" to his voters?
2005-09-14 13:50:36
169.   blue22
165 - Oops. My mistake, I guess I was anticipating the inevitable Merkin Valdez for Kaz Matsui trade this offseason.
2005-09-14 13:53:10
170.   Marty
There's actually a player with the name Merkin? I find that hilarious. Do his parents realize what a merkin is?
2005-09-14 13:54:49
171.   Penarol1916
168. Nope, had a huge article today about the possibility and how Swann has been making the rounds in Pennsylvannia over the last year. Didn't say too much about his political issues, but given how conservative the state is outside of the two big cities, he'll have to be Santorumesque on his social issues to win the Republican primary against the Lt. Gov.
2005-09-14 13:58:36
172.   Jacob L
For all JT's faults, the general idea that he is not "prospect-friendly" or doesn't help young players to develop is not one of them. At least LoDuca, Gagne, Werth, and to some extent, Bradley, and many others (Edwards) would beg to differ. You could argue that he's giving chances to young players who don't deserve them, but the idea that young players are simply running into a Lasora-esque brick wall just isn't applicable.

I think a better description is that he's not helpful to specific players for either undiscernable or indefensible reasons.

Oh, and I'd keep Kent around just because we haven't had a Cal Bear since either Darren Lewis or Matt Luke (whichever came last). I'd probably start Kevin Maas over Choi, if given the choice. Go Bears!

2005-09-14 14:04:41
173.   still bevens
172 I agree, but its the same players he has an 'intangible' dislike for that are the two folks on the team this board sincerely believes would give them a chance at actually winning the division. So that kinda sucks..
2005-09-14 14:05:40
174.   King of the Hobos
With men on the corners and 1 out, the Padres are PHing Ben Johnson (.861 OPS), with Sweeney. Manny Alexander is on deck. I'm aware that Sweeney has been better than Johnson this year, but c'mon. They both have the same odds at the DP (neither is fast). Now Cain can walk Sweeney and face Alexander
2005-09-14 14:06:30
175.   King of the Hobos
174 That should read: "the Padres are PHing for Ben Johnson"
2005-09-14 14:08:05
176.   King of the Hobos
Sweeney grounded out for a run. Cain then IBB'd Alexander. As stupid as I thought PHing for Johnson was, the Giants are just as bad if not worse
2005-09-14 14:08:23
177.   oldbear
Mariners 3-0 over the Angels after 1 innings. Sexson, Ibanez with home runs.
2005-09-14 14:10:27
178.   oldbear
174. I'm sort of rooting for the Padres today. I'm afraid if the Giants sweep, they may just continue that momentum and roll over us.

The Nationals should be good for at least 1 game against the Pads this weekend.

2005-09-14 14:15:28
179.   King of the Hobos
178 I'd agree, but the Nats are going to start Patterson vs Peavy, possibly wasting his start, then they're throwing 2 bullpen by committees at the Padres.
2005-09-14 14:20:02
180.   GoBears
This from a friend who has been a loyal Angels supporter since the team was created (no kiddin') for our "the next manager could be even worse" file:

Erstad is apparently too beat up to play 1st base for a few days. So Scioscia is using him at DH, because, you know, it's important to keep his bat in the lineup.


2005-09-14 14:23:53
181.   Xeifrank
178. Huh? Would you rather win the division or not win the division and finish ahead of the Giants? I mean, we all hate the Giants, but to the point of not winning the division?
vr, Xei
2005-09-14 14:28:41
182.   Bob Timmermann
If you don't think that the Dodgers are going to win the division, then you go to another goal which is finishing ahead of the Giants.

Which is fine by me.

2005-09-14 14:29:45
183.   blue22
181 - My priorities on a "successful season":
1. Win the division
2. Play spoiler to the Giants winning the division
3. Finish ahead of the Giants
4. Win the season series against the Giants
2005-09-14 14:30:02
184.   GoBears
181 Well, if your second favorite outcome after winning the division is that the Giants don't do so, with neither winning but our beating out the Giants 3rd, then oldbear's logic makes some sense.
2005-09-14 14:31:32
185.   oldbear
182. Exactly. I think the GIants have the best shot at catching the Padres. I dont want that to happen. So if it takes rooting for the Padres to ensure that happens, so be it.

Mariners-6 Angels-0 after 2 innings.

Not sure if smallball is gonna help them today.

2005-09-14 14:35:27
186.   Bob Timmermann
According to Baseball Prospectus, the Dodgers have a hair's breadth better chance of winning the division.

The Dodgers are at 3.38% and the Giants are at 3.06%

The Cardinals lost today, so no playoff spots are clinched yet.

2005-09-14 14:36:34
187.   oldbear
185. I find it sort of funny though that if the Giants are say 1 game behind the Padres going into the final weekend, they will get NO HELP from us. I'll actually be rooting for us to lose because how sickening woudl it be for the Giants to get into playoffs because we beat the Padres for them. That cant hpapen.

Come to think of it, that is one scenario in which I'd support Tracy, Edwards, Valentin, Phillips, Repko etc...

2005-09-14 14:39:43
188.   alex 7
I'm still wondering if I agree or disagree with 172. If you're given a batch of young players, but you play the worst ones (Repko, Edwards, Werth, Aybar) more than you play the better ones (Perez and Choi), how does one measure that?

Perhaps not a blocker of young talent, but someone who doesn't use it correctly. Either way it doesn't seem he'd be the guy for the job to coach the upcoming Dodgers teams.

2005-09-14 14:42:42
189.   Jim Tracy
187 Totally agree. If we are out of it and the Giants are a game behind, I'd want Jim Tracy to play SS. But, what you are saying right now is, that if the Pads win tonight, then it lowers SF chances, but it also dramatically lowers ours. As long as the Dodgers are, even mildly, in the race, I have to root for the best situation possible for the Dodgers. Best card scenario, Pads lose today and Dodgers win and we're 4 behind. Maybe we can win 3 out of 4 over the weekend and the Pads only win 2 of 3 from the Nats and we keep pace. Last night's loss, in regards to all this, was devastating. Hey, at least the pitching matchups are in our favor this weekend. I'd take our starters over theirs in the first three games of the series.
2005-09-14 14:42:53
190.   Sam DC
Is Bonds available to pinch hit today?
2005-09-14 14:44:22
191.   Jon Weisman
Though I suppose I dislike the Giants more than the Padres, I certainly can't imagine rooting the team ahead of us in the standings to beat them. And rooting against the Dodgers the final weekend? Forget that.

And honestly, if the Giants make the playoffs, I'll just shrug. Isn't that the point? It would give them too much credit to actually care what they do.

2005-09-14 14:44:46
192.   Bob Timmermann
If Bonds doesn't get asked to pinch hit for somebody like Todd Linden then the anger from San Francisco will be far worse than what everybody here thought about Tracy having Antonio Perez pinch run.

By a factor of 1000.

2005-09-14 14:45:31
193.   King of the Hobos
188 I'm not sure Aybar really belongs on your "worst" ones list. He does everything Perez does and plays better defense. Perez has more power it seems, but is 3 years older

Out of curiosity, who do most of you rather, Aybar or Perez? They both are playing over their heads, it's just a matter of which one is playing more over his head than the other

2005-09-14 14:46:03
194.   Sam DC
Angels get 4 back, but Mariners have loaded the bases with no outs. 6-4 in the bottom of the third. Beltre has a single in the current rally.
2005-09-14 14:47:00
195.   Bob Timmermann
Joe Saunders has done an Edwin Jackson impression today.
2005-09-14 14:48:15
196.   King of the Hobos
Betancourt sac fly, 7-4 Mariners
2005-09-14 14:52:52
197.   Jim Tracy
Edwin Jackson was No. 30 on the 2005 Baseball America prospects list. Does he still qualify as a prospect next year? If so, does he make the Top 100?
2005-09-14 14:56:08
198.   King of the Hobos
197 He doesn't qualify, but I can't believe he'd be too high if he were. Maybe in the bottom half somewhere just because he's not very old and did well in Jacksonville
2005-09-14 15:01:55
199.   werthgagne31
"""""Out of curiosity, who do most of you rather, Aybar or Perez?"""""""""''

thats the question i'm asking, because i think 1 or the other is kent's sucessor at 2b and the other trade bait because of guzman at ss and laroche at 3b.

2005-09-14 15:04:30
200.   Jim Tracy
199 Rather have Aybar. I think this year's A. Perez is next year's J. Werth. Which is not to say that I am really high on Aybar.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2005-09-14 15:06:01
201.   werthgagne31
and thats why i'd like to see aybar and perez playing the left side of the infield for the rest of the season and the first half of the season till guzman gets the call and izturis is elligible to be traded in a package with the 1 of aybar/perez along with others like jackson and repko for a penny type starting pitcher.
2005-09-14 15:07:39
202.   King of the Hobos
Bonds coming to the plate, batting for Alfonso. 1st and 2nd, 1 out...
2005-09-14 15:08:12
203.   alex 7
I only meant to put Aybar on the worst list because Tracy played him without Aybar having a track record at the MLB level. My intention was to compare that to Tracy not playing guys who have shown the ability to succeed at the MLB level.

I wonder what either one would fetch in a trade. Maybe whichever one ends up a backup is still more valuable as a Dodger than whatever player they might be traded for. Just seems that some of the young talent we get excited about may have less appeal to other teams who haven't followed them weekly.

2005-09-14 15:08:13
204.   Sam DC
Bonds up, 2 one, 1 out, bottom 8th, SD up 2-1.
2005-09-14 15:08:27
205.   Sam DC
2 on
2005-09-14 15:10:25
206.   King of the Hobos
Bonds broke his bat, so he went to get another one. The one he got in the dugout (he actually went in it) was insufficient, so the bat boy runs out with 2 from the clubhouse after Bonds was in the batters box...
2005-09-14 15:11:32
207.   King of the Hobos
Bonds strikes out looking on an admittedly bad call (it may have got the corner I suppose)
2005-09-14 15:12:17
208.   King of the Hobos
On the replay, it was a good call, the Giants announcers are blind (but we all know that)
2005-09-14 15:12:20
209.   Mark Linsey
Regarding the BP playoff odds, it seems that the simulations they run for the remainder of the season are based of stats "W3" and "L3". I'm not familiar with those stats, but it appears that they are in some way based off of Pythagorean Projections, which are in turn based off of team statistics for runs scored and runs allowed.

So that would mean that if we accept that Bonds is back at anywhere in the same zip code as his former self, the prediction of about 3% for the Giants to make the playoffs is on the pessimistic side.

2005-09-14 15:13:26
210.   Yakface
Bonds will be back on the DL by monday.
2005-09-14 15:13:46
211.   King of the Hobos
Feliz did double however, 3-2 Giants
2005-09-14 15:13:52
212.   oldbear
Not clutch by Bonds. Looked like he was hacking according to gameday.
2005-09-14 15:14:06
213.   Steve
1) Please tell me Randy Winn is in a contract year and the Giants are going to take it in the shorts.

2) BP brought up something I forgot to last night. Those two innings against Scott Dough-man last night were atrocious.

2005-09-14 15:15:03
214.   King of the Hobos
210 No reason to go on the DL in September, unless it's the 60 day DL and someone is taking your 40 man spot
2005-09-14 15:15:39
215.   Jon Weisman
See, now, it's most frustrating for me to see Bonds strike out against another team and not our team. That trumps my distaste for the Giants easily. How ironic that the Giants scored anyway.

213 - I too was amazed at how powerful the Rockies' bullpen was.

2005-09-14 15:15:39
216.   Bob Timmermann
It's Scott D'Oh-mann.

At least Vin's favorite Giant came through. I have no idea why he was so high on Pedro Feliz this year.

Or any year.

2005-09-14 15:15:55
217.   oldbear
I still cant pull myself to root for the Giants. I hate them.
2005-09-14 15:16:46
218.   Yakface
217-You hate everything.
2005-09-14 15:17:17
219.   King of the Hobos
Matheny with a pop up RBI single, 4-2 Giants

213 Winn has a mutual option, I'm sure the Giants will exercise it, only to get disappointed. Or Winn could pull a Jody Reed

2005-09-14 15:19:38
220.   Ken Arneson
Bonds struck out on a bad call. The ump had a high strike zone all day until that pitch. It was almost as bad as the pitches Kirk Saarloos was getting last night against the Indians, but at least that ump was consistent.

That said, Bonds' bat looks a little slow, compared to his old standards.

2005-09-14 15:19:39
221.   Bob Timmermann
I'm wondering if Bruce Bochy is looking in the mirror now and seeing Gene Mauch's face.
2005-09-14 15:20:42
222.   Jim Hitchcock
OT, but I really did enjoy hearing Vinny talk so highly about Dale Murphy last night. The man really sees the good in people, and I treasure that about him.

And Murphy has 8 kids! In Utah!

Steve got out just in time...

2005-09-14 15:21:02
223.   Ken Arneson
Ump just made up for that Bonds call by calling out Loretta.
2005-09-14 15:21:06
224.   oldbear
4.5 games out of 1st place.
2005-09-14 15:22:17
225.   King of the Hobos
After looking at Winn's contract, he also has a player option for $3.75 mil if he can manage 44 more PAs, which shouldn't be too hard. Mutual Option is worth 5 mil

Hernandez just doubled with one out, Giles up

2005-09-14 15:22:26
226.   Bob Timmermann
The Angels and Mariners are tied at 7 now.
2005-09-14 15:22:30
227.   Steve
Other notable Utah residents: Steve Garvey and Gary Coleman
2005-09-14 15:24:26
228.   King of the Hobos
Giles walks, 2 on for "the very dangerous" Joe Randa
2005-09-14 15:24:44
229.   Jon Weisman
224 - Nothing like jumping the gun.
2005-09-14 15:24:46
230.   Bob Timmermann
9 walks by Giant pitching today. 6 pitchers used.

And so far, just 2 runs allowed.

2005-09-14 15:26:54
231.   Steve
229 -- Yeah, that's Benitez out there. Anything can happen.

Braden Looper was quoted in the Post today as saying something like "I saw what this crowd did to Benitez when he was here..."


No help from Paul LoRanda

2005-09-14 15:29:08
232.   King of the Hobos
Fick walks on 4 pitches. Now the dangerous Burroughs up, a single actually ties it
2005-09-14 15:29:38
233.   Bob Timmermann
11 walks today by Giants pitchers!
2005-09-14 15:29:52
234.   King of the Hobos
0-2 quickly on Burroughs
2005-09-14 15:30:00
235.   Steve
Burroughs hit for Jackson?
2005-09-14 15:30:02
236.   dzzrtRatt
How much are those fools paying Benitez? He reminds me of Full-Pack Stanhouse.
2005-09-14 15:30:51
237.   King of the Hobos
Burroughs drove a double to the gap, tie game
2005-09-14 15:31:38
238.   Bob Timmermann
I was going to say

"Sean Burroughs is dangerous to whom?"

But I now retract that statement.

2005-09-14 15:31:43
239.   dzzrtRatt
2005-09-14 15:31:49
240.   Yakface
You gotta be kidding me, Benitez is worthless.
2005-09-14 15:32:07
241.   oldbear
Benitez and Burroughts in duel to see who sucks worst. Benitez wins.


2005-09-14 15:32:15
242.   Steve
And I immediately go over to McCovey Chronicles where I'm hoping I'll read some good Jeff Kent smack.
2005-09-14 15:33:55
243.   Monterey Chris
I'm hoping for a very long extra inning game in SF today prior to our arrival tomorrow.
2005-09-14 15:34:35
244.   oldbear
If the Giants lose this game, hopefully they'll be demoralized for our 4 gamer. And we'll still only be 5 games back. Just need to pick up 2 games, before the final 3gamer with the Pads.
2005-09-14 15:34:55
245.   Jim Tracy
The Giants can't do anything right. Hey, would you rather have to play 4 games in SF (like the Dodgers have to this weekend) or 4 games in Colorado (like the Pads have to next week). I think that can be a very tough series for the Pads.
2005-09-14 15:36:00
246.   Bob Timmermann
The Giants better hope they win this game in the bottom of the 9th or else they're looking at sending Jeff Fassero out there until he drops dead.

And then Seanez walks some guy I've never heard of.

2005-09-14 15:36:31
247.   King of the Hobos
243 While The Giants have used 5 relievers, they still have 6 left. Sabean knew what he had to do in September to protect Alou's love for short relief outings...
2005-09-14 15:37:04
248.   Steve
When I click on D. Clark on Yahoo, it sends me to their main players' page.

Alou and Bochy and Tracy and Hurdle and Melvin. Good God.

2005-09-14 15:37:42
249.   Jon Weisman
246 - they have 10 pitchers in their bullpen left.

Jeff Fassero started the only game I ever saw in Olympic Stadium - 12 years ago.

2005-09-14 15:38:08
250.   Bob Timmermann
The Giants have used 20 players so far. The Padres have used 19.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2005-09-14 15:38:28
251.   King of the Hobos
246 29 yr old making his major league debut. Saenez should be ashamed
2005-09-14 15:38:38
252.   Steve
Please tell me Winn is bunting.
2005-09-14 15:38:39
253.   dzzrtRatt
The upcoming Giant/Dodger series should be called "Crabs in a Barrel Weekend." Each game will alter the pennant race significantly. Whoever wins first will be under pressure to sweep, meaning the other team moves to the role of spoiler. However, if Thursday's loser wins Friday and the Padres lose, then both teams are half a game closer. The pressure will be on to win the next two. Whoever loses Saturday is probably finished, but will come back Sunday with a massive chip on its shoulder, looking to spoil.

Tracy will probably concede, however, out of respect to his mentor, Felipe Alou. It's not like the days of Lasorda vs. Frank Robinson. Plus Tracy will want to showcase Phillips, thinking some good at-bats might get him a bigger contract.

2005-09-14 15:40:20
254.   Paul B
246. You've never heard of Doug Clark? The 29 year old making his MLB debut? For shame, sir.

PS Is Clark one of the hot young Giants prospects we're all concerned about?

2005-09-14 15:40:40
255.   King of the Hobos
252 He was, yes. Now a DP. Ellison, Durham, and Chavez due up in the 10th for the Giants, PHing has really hurt them
2005-09-14 15:40:59
256.   Mark Linsey
I'm not really familiar with whatever analysis has been done on relievers/closers, but is it common for one as good as Benitez was last year to become as bad as Benitez is this year? It could just be the big injury, but he did the same thing today that he did at our home opener (except that time Ellison allowed the runner on first to score). I know that's a small sample size, so feel free to correct me if I'm off base here.

But if really good closers really do commonly go bust (I guess Percival might fit in this category too, and some other late relievers who were closers for a short while like Mota and Brazoban imploded too), then really if you don't have a Gagne then you may as well fill your pen with scrap heap parts and prospects who don't yet have a spot in the rotation.

Or was it really that Benitez and Perival in 2004 were just exceedingly lucky, seeing as how being a closer means smaller sample sizes for your stats then a starter? I haven't bothered to check all their peripherals.

2005-09-14 15:41:23
257.   Bob Timmermann
I am grateful that the Giants didn't score there in that I didn't wish to see Armando Benitez pick up one of the cheapest wins in major league history.
2005-09-14 15:42:37
258.   Steve
Brazoban can only pitch in non-save situations.
2005-09-14 15:43:41
259.   Steve
Why would you bring in Burroughs with the bases loaded in the ninth and then have Nady lead off the tenth?
2005-09-14 15:44:03
260.   Jim Tracy
257 "cheapest wins in major league history"... Bob, are you a little upset that the Giants blew the lead?
2005-09-14 15:44:52
261.   Mark Linsey
"Plus Tracy will want to showcase Phillips, thinking some good at-bats might get him a bigger contract. "

The sad part is, he doesn't need to have that motivation. If there is a must-win game and Saenz can't play, Tracy might try to put out the best lineup he thinks he can put out...and so pencil in Phillips at first base.

2005-09-14 15:45:03
262.   Yakface
259-For the sake of conversation.
2005-09-14 15:46:19
263.   Jim Tracy
Call me foolish, but I really think the Dodgers will win the first three games of their series against the Giants. The two things that concern me more... one, I am not as confident about beating COL at home tonight, with Houlton and Kim, who has become a Cy Young pitcher when he faces the Dodgers. Second, I just know that a Dodger, (probably Weaver) will give up Bonds' home run #704.
2005-09-14 15:47:00
264.   King of the Hobos
Todd Donavon isn't starting for the Suns. Called up? They Jax game notes won't tell me. It's just not usual to sit Donavon wjen Sergio Garcia is the guy replacing him

2B Abreu
CF Weber
C Martin
3B Laroche
1B Loney
SS Guzman
LF Ruggiano
RF Garcia
P Hull

2005-09-14 15:47:21
265.   Bob Timmermann

"You see, young man, Burroughs swings from the left side. It's called playing the percentages!"

"Yeah, but Nady is better!"

"Never mind. Take a shower!"

2005-09-14 15:47:36
266.   Telemachos
The cynical fan in me thinks that the Giants rested Bonds today so he'd be ready for the Dodger series. The realistic fan understands that he sat out based on the night/day game situation.

Fortunately(?) Navarro getting a day means he should be able to catch the whole series. Somehow I have a lot more confidence in the lower part of our batting order when he's in the lineup.

2005-09-14 15:48:00
267.   dzzrtRatt
I'm not really familiar with whatever analysis has been done on relievers/closers, but is it common for one as good as Benitez was last year to become as bad as Benitez is this year?

If it's Armando Benitez, it's just regression to the mean. He screwed up with the Mets and the Yankees before he went to Florida. His speciality is self-destructing in crucial games by completely losing the strike zone.

2005-09-14 15:49:18
268.   King of the Hobos
Ichiro has doubled in a run, 8-7 Mariners
2005-09-14 15:49:46
269.   Yakface
Players should not be allowed to have children during the course of the season! Plan it for November,December,Jan,Feb nothing after. Non Compliance will result in castration.
2005-09-14 15:52:27
270.   Jim Hitchcock
Castration: the safe alternative to steroids.
2005-09-14 15:52:57
271.   Steve
Navarro should man up! The baby was born in the early afternoon! Paul LoDuca would have delivered the baby himself with forceps, knitted it a receiving blanket, saved three puppies from drowning in the river on the way to the game, helped Edwin Jackson throw five mph faster, then deliver the game winning suicide squeeze with pinch-runner Jason Phillips hustling down the line.
2005-09-14 15:53:04
272.   King of the Hobos
The Dodgers Press Notes don't mention Donavon, so I guess...I have no reasonable explanation for Garcia playing

Reed singles, Marienrs up 9-7

2 on for Giles, 2 outs

2005-09-14 15:53:48
273.   Steve
272 -- That's gotta mean Fassero Time!
2005-09-14 15:55:56
274.   King of the Hobos
271 Is it physically possible to squeeze in Phillips? Without the the entire infield (including the pitcher) getting hurt on the play of course

Padres up 5-4 on a Giles single. Matheny had the ball and a farily easy play, but he dropped it

2005-09-14 15:56:47
275.   Steve
I have no reasonable explanation for Garcia playing

Dodger Front Office:

McCourt: Jim, Bill Plaschke called today. He says you should go from managing the Los Angeles Dodgers to the Jacksonville Suns.

JT: Did you misunderstand Plaschke's article? I am not sure myself. Do I want to go to Jacksonville? Hard to say but those are some hard-working kids. Will I miss Jason Phillips? You can bet your bottom dollar I will.

McCourt: You'll be flying Coach, of course.

2005-09-14 15:59:46
276.   King of the Hobos
I just realized the pitching matchups for the weekend

Lowe vs Hennessey
Penny vs Tomko
Weaver vs TBA (fingers crossed for Correia)
Jackson vs Lowry

I'd say we have a good shot in the first 3. Not so good in the last one

2005-09-14 16:00:33
277.   Midwest Blue
Steve, that brings up a good point: What would the Dodgers be like if DePo were forced to coach a game in place of JT?
2005-09-14 16:00:43
278.   Steve
Giants fans may, possibly, be starting to get it. From McCovey Chronicles:

"Hawkins used to make Chicago fans crazy,
Benitez used to make NY fans crazy,
and NOW they are both here to make us crazy.

Ask yourself why?"

2005-09-14 16:00:50
279.   regfairfield
274 It happened at a game I was at. The pitch previous, Javier Vazquez pitched out and I was heard to remark "even Tracy isn't stupid enough to squeeze with Phillips".

Next pitch, the bunt comes down, and Phillips is out by about 25 feet. Vazquez, despite being about five feet from the catcher, airmails it to the backstop.

2005-09-14 16:02:02
280.   Jim Tracy
276 I know. The pitching matchup for the 4th game makes it imperative that we win the first three. Brad Penny's early game inconsistencies aside, our pitching trio is in good form, and even 4-5 runs per game might be enough for the first three games.
2005-09-14 16:02:06
281.   DaveP
274 - I don't think the entire infield would need to be disabled for Phillips to score (as long as it's bunted up 3rd base line). Only the following would need to happen:

*Phillips takes off for home prior to delivery and pitcher doesn't notice
*Pitcher pulling his hamstring AND severing his achilles tendon on the pitch
*3rd baseman blowing out his ACL and suffering from turf toe

Of course, you still run the threat of the catcher running out and fielding the ball and still beating Phillips back to the plate for the tagout.

2005-09-14 16:02:12
282.   dzzrtRatt
Sabean pays a lot of money for notoriously undependable relievers.
2005-09-14 16:02:47
283.   Midwest Blue
276 - Prescription: Pitching by committee! Edwin starts with Dessens warming up halfway into inning one. After two innings of Dessens, distribute one inning liberally per bullpen. Take two aspirin and call me in the morning.
2005-09-14 16:02:58
284.   King of the Hobos
Giants lose. We can go into the weekend in 2nd by ourselves with a win tonight
2005-09-14 16:03:47
285.   Steve
277 -- I thought, once, when I was young and arrogant and thought I knew everything (ironic subtext), that I knew the answer to that question.

My disappointment with the team generally stems from the fact that if I ever really did know the answer to that question, I don't any more.

2005-09-14 16:04:56
286.   Midwest Blue
281 LOL!
2005-09-14 16:05:10
287.   Paul B
284. I'd still rather be four back and tied with the Giants than five back and in second by ourselves.
2005-09-14 16:05:11
288.   Monterey Chris
Hoffman only needed 6 pitches to get the Giants in the 9th.
2005-09-14 16:05:57
289.   King of the Hobos
Link to the Jax game

2005-09-14 16:06:01
290.   Steve
281 -- So if Darren Dreifort is pitching, and Bobby Bonilla is playing third, we have it made!
2005-09-14 16:06:34
291.   Midwest Blue
285 Anyone want to take a crack at DePo's theoretical line-up?
2005-09-14 16:06:42
292.   Jim Tracy
Man that loss has got to sting the Giants. Ahh, that feels good. Of course this means we have to win tonight, or SD can pretty much pop the cork.
2005-09-14 16:08:45
293.   Jon Weisman
Wow, I really find it strange that people are happy with the result of today's Giants-Padres game.
2005-09-14 16:08:51
294.   Jim Tracy

Perez [3B]
Robles [SS]
Kent [2B]
Choi [1B]
Werth [CF]
Grabowski [LF]
Ledee [RF]
Navarro [C]

2005-09-14 16:09:57
295.   Jim Tracy
293 I really am not... if you read my earlier posts, I would much much much rather have the Pads lose more than anything. I was just noting, that as a small consolation, this loss must really sting for the Giants.
2005-09-14 16:10:31
296.   Monterey Chris
Jon, I agree. It seems like the goal should be to catch the team ahead of you, not worry about the team even with you or behind you.
2005-09-14 16:11:13
297.   Bob Timmermann
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend" is my motto and I'm sticking with it.
2005-09-14 16:11:55
298.   dzzrtRatt
293 me too. But now that the Giants have blown the game, it's acceptable to dance on their grave.
2005-09-14 16:12:20
299.   Steve
There is no pennant race.
2005-09-14 16:14:11
300.   Paul B
293 I agree 100%. I found this Giants loss as annoying as the loss last night (which is to say I wasn't shocked by it, but was frustrated by a lost opportunity). Staying ahead of the Giants is nice, but any chance, be it ever so small, of seeing the postseason outweighs all other concerns. I think I only really get joy out being a spoiler when (a) the Dodgers are mathematically eliminated and (b) it happens in a gory and dramatic fashion (see 1993).
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2005-09-14 16:14:32
301.   Midwest Blue
I'm in the "Rooting for the Pads to lose" camp too. It's more important to battle to the bitter end and give it our all, even if the Giants end up winning because of it. They'ld just get blown out in the first round of playoffs.
2005-09-14 16:17:07
302.   Midwest Blue
I predict this is going to be a real big post night. We're already over 300 comments and the game is hours away still!
2005-09-14 16:20:59
303.   still bevens
302 I blame Jon's "stop fighting" post and the subsequent fighting.
2005-09-14 16:21:25
304.   GoBears
OK, I promised a while back not to kvetch any more about Tracy's lineup shenanigans. So I won't. Instead, I've come up with a unified field theorem for Dodger bliss:

Tracy DOES listen to DePodesta.
DePodesta is as smart as we've all hoped.

DePodesta ordered Tracy to bench the good young uns (Choi, Perez) and play the bums.

Why? Because PDP realized early on that this season was cursed, that anyone with regular PT and talent would get injured (except for Kent, because he's just too damn ornery). He stopped the use of AP and HSC just in time to save them from the curse. He's throwing the junk on the fire, and saving the good stuff for 2006, by which time the curse will have moved to the NL Central.

Ergo, JT is not to be vilified, but admired as a good soldier who takes the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, while DePo's job is just to repeat "I support the skipper."

There ya go. Once you accept the notion of a pox on all our players (probably the result of the Ross Porter firing), everything else falls into place.

2005-09-14 16:21:50
305.   King of the Hobos
302 We have the epic Hull v Pinto match up in Jax for right now to boost the post count. Suns Thoughts can go either way though

Hull gave up some 2 out singles, but no runs

2005-09-14 16:24:21
306.   still bevens
304 I like your theories. I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

It might make sense if you take Tracy's constant "we're still in this" quotes in the media as mostly puffery and a public show to make sure people keep showing up. However, judging by the attendance at the last couple of games, this is probably no longer necessary.

2005-09-14 16:26:06
307.   Telemachos
As long as the Padres keep losing 4 out of 5, I don't mind them winning the occasional game.

As long as we keep winning 4 out of 5, of course.

2005-09-14 16:30:43
308.   King of the Hobos
Weber was hit, but nothing else happened in the inning

Someone else will have to take over on Suns updates, I have to go to class...

2005-09-14 16:32:05
309.   Bob Timmermann
Angels pulled to within 9-8 in the 8th, 1st and 3rd and one out for Guerrero and he hit the first pitch he saw... for a double play.
2005-09-14 16:37:06
310.   Jon Weisman
303 - LOL

Has anyone analyzed Dodger Stadium feng shui this season since the addition of the new seats?

2005-09-14 16:38:00
311.   Jim Tracy
I hate saying this, but it feels like we are one more competent starting pitcher away from winning this division. Game one of last weekend's series against the Pads and the game last night... How huge would a solid SP be over Houlton and Jackson? If only Perez had played up to his capabilities... or if only we had added a decent SP at the deadline. Jon was right in a post a few weeks ago about how it's not the offense who has us in the predicament we are in. It's the pitching.
2005-09-14 16:46:44
312.   molokai
As long as we have 3 games with the Pod's at the end of year and we are not eliminated I will always be rooting for them to lose, even to the Giants. 2nd place means nothing for a team 10 games under 500.
2005-09-14 16:49:50
313.   dzzrtRatt
Seeing as how this is not 1951 and most of us aren't in New York, why is it part of the LA Dodger catechism to hate the Giants above all foes? I hate it when the Giants beat us. But, I loathe it even more when the Padres do. I hate the Padres. I hate their ever-changing uniforms (from tacos to surfers?). I hate their best players and I hate their worst players. I hate Trevor Hoffman. I hate Bruce Bochy and his apparent lifetime contract. I hate Jerry Coleman, Ted Leitner and Tim Flannery. I hated Jack Murphy Stadium, and I hate Petco Park--outside of the White Sox, one of the few teams that has replaced their old stadium with a worse one. I hated hearing Ryan Klesko and Phil Nevin whine about the park. I hate that Kevin Brown came from there. I hate Dave Roberts, now that he's there. I hate them so much, I don't want Brian Giles here next year. If I had to save the Padres or the Giants from drowning, I'd probably go smoke a cigar with Pete Rose instead.
2005-09-14 16:49:58
314.   Bob Timmermann
Second place would get the Dodgers players a 1% share of the playoff money.
2005-09-14 16:51:16
315.   Bob Timmermann
I used to tell people that I hated the Padres because somebody had to do it.

I see that my work is done.

2005-09-14 16:51:37
316.   Marty
310 Sitrick brought in a consultant, but the only recommendation was "add some red doors"
2005-09-14 16:52:45
317.   Eric L

I hate the Pads too, but I gotta disagree with you on Jack Murphy/Qualcomm over Petco. Qualcomm did have better food though.

2005-09-14 16:53:06
318.   Marty
I hate the Giants above all else mainly because of Juan Marichal's bat.
2005-09-14 16:53:16
319.   Jon Weisman
316 - Yeah, I don't think Sitrick is Feng-Shui certified :)
2005-09-14 16:53:26
320.   Bob Timmermann
Angels tie the Mariners in the top of the 9th, 9-9.
2005-09-14 16:58:28
321.   Steve
Beltre's error to start the inning comes back to haunt the Mariners. But if the Angels hadn't run themselves out of the inning (again), they would be celebrating down south, instead of desperate to hold on.
2005-09-14 16:59:26
322.   Steve
Followed by Beltre striking out to lead off the ninth.
2005-09-14 16:59:28
323.   Marty
All that Angel offense and no Finley. Go figure.
2005-09-14 17:03:39
324.   Marty
Yuniesky Betancourt. What a moniker.
2005-09-14 17:03:46
325.   Bob Timmermann
The Angels are up to 20 players used today.
2005-09-14 17:04:04
326.   Marty
But he wins it!
2005-09-14 17:06:40
327.   Steve
Why is the Oakland game delayed again?
2005-09-14 17:08:56
328.   Marty
327 Rain according to MLB
2005-09-14 17:15:45
329.   Adam M
Whatever agony befalls the Dodgers, at least they don't have Rex Hudler announcing. He just pointed out that Garrett Anderson's throw "was a good one...strength wise." The throw was about 22 feet over home plate, and hit the backstop before it hit the ground. THanks Rex, we of the TV audience were already aware of that.
2005-09-14 17:17:56
330.   Bob Timmermann
The Giants and Padres combined to use 41 players today.

That total includes Manny Alexander.

2005-09-14 17:22:50
331.   Bob Timmermann
Play is resuming in Cleveland.
2005-09-14 17:26:57
332.   DaveP
0-0 going into bottom of 5th at Jacksonville. Suns are hitless.
2005-09-14 17:36:42
333.   Bob Timmermann
The end of the Giants-Padres story says that Doug Clark was called up from AAA today. So the Giants must think they are short of outfielders, which makes Moises Alou's chances of playing this weekend not very good.
2005-09-14 17:39:26
334.   Bob Timmermann
San Diego Magic Number:


2005-09-14 17:41:49
335.   Bob Timmermann
Gabe Kapler of Boston pulled a Wunsch of sorts. He hurt his ankle rounding second on a Tony Graffanino home run and had to be carted off the field and pinch runner finished his circuit of the bases.
2005-09-14 17:46:57
336.   Icaros
LoDuca would have crawled around those bases if he had to.
2005-09-14 17:50:30
337.   GoBears
335 Wow - I had no idea that was allowed. I'd have guessed that if he couldn't score, then the batter would have to hold up behind him, or, if less than 2 outs, pass him. You can substitute players in hte middle of a play?! That makes it seem like a batter hurt on an HBP - that someone else can take the base. But in that case, play is stopped because the ball is dead. If you can sub like this, why even make players run the bases? Just go yard and walk back to the dugout.
2005-09-14 17:52:51
338.   Marty
337 Yeah, that seems strange. Like, what happens if a player drops dead running the bases on a home run?
2005-09-14 17:53:54
339.   Marty
336 Jimmy Piersall would have walked on his hands around the bases. Even if he hadn't been hurt.
2005-09-14 18:01:41
340.   GoBears
I distinctly remember thinking about that when Gibson hit his shot in the '88 WS - that the tough part would be getting around the bases. Turns out it wouldn't have mattered.
2005-09-14 18:06:06
341.   Icaros
Just go yard and walk back to the dugout.

I'm sure Bonds would be for that.

2005-09-14 18:08:03
342.   Marty
just go yard and walk back to the dugout

Yeah, why rub salt in the batter's wound for killing the rally?

2005-09-14 18:09:04
343.   GoBears
341 Bret Boone would hate though. The bat-clip is his best thing. Or "was."

And Sosa would have to hop all the way back to the dugout. Hippity Hoppity Hippity Hoppity...
I wonder if he could hop and pound-pound-blowkiss at the same time.

2005-09-14 18:10:39
344.   GoBears
Wow - retarted-monkey-typing again.

Bret Boone would hate IT, though. The bat-FLIP was his best thing.

Sorry about that. Tho I'm sure you figured it out.

2005-09-14 18:11:29
345.   Icaros
Does anyone remember when George Costanza taught Derek Jeter and Bernie Williams how to hit home runs?
2005-09-14 18:11:53
346.   DaveP
still 0-0 in Jacksonville going into the 8th. Broxton warming up.
2005-09-14 18:12:26
347.   Icaros
344 I thought the bat-clip was some type of Bruce Wayne tool.
2005-09-14 18:15:52
348.   Steve


That'll fix 'em.

2005-09-14 18:16:13
349.   GoBears
347 Hmmm, anyone ever seen Bret Boone and Robin in the same room? Coinkydink?
2005-09-14 18:17:49
350.   GoBears
347 Or perhaps a Bat-girl Lego-reenactment?
Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2005-09-14 18:17:56
351.   Icaros
I could see Bret Boone playing Robin. Imagine him wearing that little mask.
2005-09-14 18:24:02
352.   Icaros
Steve's team is p---ing me off.
2005-09-14 18:26:16
353.   Steve
The always dangerous Marco Scutaro bestrides the plate.
2005-09-14 18:28:41
354.   Steve
The Marlins, hoping to keep the other teams chasing them for the wild card in sight, have signed Paul Quantrill.
2005-09-14 18:29:34
355.   DaveP
Suns got the leadoff guy on base in the 8th. Bunted him to 2nd. 1 out 0-0 tie.
2005-09-14 18:30:41
356.   DaveP
wild pitch moves Ruggiano to 3rd.
2005-09-14 18:32:01
357.   Steve
348 -- Nothing like a job well done.
2005-09-14 18:34:08
358.   dzzrtRatt
Re: Milton Bradley. Am I wrong, or does the release of these 911 transcripts tend to help Milton's cause? He seems like a guy who is getting physically and emotionally assaulted and is worried that, due to his anger management problems, he might blow up and do something he shouldn't. So, instead, he calls 911, hoping that a visit from the authorities might get his wife to stop hitting him. He doesn't come off as the insane hothead in these stories that the Times wants to make him out. He comes of as rather responsible. Or am I missing something?
2005-09-14 18:36:50
359.   DaveP
Suns take 1-0 lead on Abreu base hit with 2 outs in bottom of 8th.
2005-09-14 18:37:18
360.   Im So Blue
On the TV pregame show on FSNW2, they just announced that Dessens will start on Sunday (instead of Jackson).
2005-09-14 18:37:18
361.   Bob Timmermann
Paul Quantrill could get three different playoff bonus checks this year: Yankees, Padres, Marlins.

One of the few ever trades between the Dodgers and Padres involved the Dodgers trading Jim Bruske to San Diego for a minor leaguer. (Mainly because Tommy Lasorda didn't like him.) Bruske pitched for the Padres for a few games and in September, the Yankees picked him up. Because you know, the 1998 Yankees needed as much pitching help as they could get.

I wonder what Bruske did with those bonus checks he got for the World Series?

2005-09-14 18:38:56
362.   Bob Timmermann
Repko returns to the lineup tonight in center and batting 8th. No Werth tonight.

Ledee-Repko-Cruz outfield
Saenz-Kent-Robles-Aybar infield
Houlton-Navarro battery

2005-09-14 18:42:25
363.   dzzrtRatt
360 is good news.
2005-09-14 18:42:59
364.   Bob Timmermann
Gabe Kapler did more than just tweak his ankle. He ruptured his Achilles tendon.

Anyone wishing to play center field for the Red Sox, please send a resume to Theo Esptein, Fenway Park, Boston, MA.

2005-09-14 18:46:14
365.   D4P

Put me in coach: I'm ready to play. Today.

2005-09-14 18:46:46
366.   Linkmeister
361 Remember when the WS MVP got a Corvette and it was a really big deal?

364 I thought Damon played CF. Is he hurt too?

2005-09-14 18:47:18
367.   b1ued0dger
Double Play to end the Game. THe Suns win!
2005-09-14 18:48:14
368.   DaveP
Suns win game 2 1-0. Broxton pitched final two innings for the win. Hull pitched 7 shutout innings.
2005-09-14 18:49:34
369.   Bob Timmermann
Kapler was filling for Damon who had been out with a bad shoulder. He is supposed to return for the Oakland series.
2005-09-14 18:49:36
370.   Steve
I don't see why everyone cares about the Suns so much. Only two of the Jacksonville Five are going to make it to the majors. :)
2005-09-14 18:51:12
371.   D4P

The issue isn't so much how many are going to "make it", but how many are going to stay.

2005-09-14 18:52:46
372.   Steve
371 -- two! It hath been decreed.

And Chuck Tiffany, because he's homegrown.

2005-09-14 18:53:45
373.   Icaros
I'll bet Plaschke can't even name five Suns players.
2005-09-14 18:58:39
374.   Linkmeister
Plaschke: "Five Suns players? That's easy! Connie Hawkins, Danny Ainge, Gail Goodrich, Kevin Johnson, Gar Heard!"
2005-09-14 18:59:30
375.   Icaros
Uh, guys, Zito is clearly done.
2005-09-14 19:01:10
376.   Nagman
373 My sister lives in Jacksonville, in fact they went to the game tonight (I looked for them on the live broadcast to no avail)... they think I've gone off the deep end because I CAN name five Suns players.
2005-09-14 19:01:30
377.   Icaros
374 I would have gone with Tom Chambers and Dan Marjele (sp?).
2005-09-14 19:02:37
378.   Icaros
2005-09-14 19:05:18
379.   Icaros
375 Told you...
2005-09-14 19:06:19
380.   Icaros
Zito gives up a three-run dinger to Belliard on his 122nd pitch.
2005-09-14 19:07:19
381.   Linkmeister
No requirement to actually put a team on the court, was there? ;)

(Full disclosure: I had to go the Suns site and look at their all-time roster to get the final two names.)

2005-09-14 19:10:12
382.   Icaros
I just loved that old highlight where Tom Chambers did the two handed dunk and his chest was at the rim.
2005-09-14 19:11:58
383.   Linkmeister
Well, the Gorilla is the best mascot in the NBA, as far as I'm concerned.
2005-09-14 19:12:32
384.   Bob Timmermann
All-time Phoenix Suns team
G - Kevin Johnson
G - Paul Westphal
C - Amare Stoudamire
F - Charles Barkley
F - Alvin Adams (really a center)
2005-09-14 19:12:35
385.   Icaros
Shawn Green does not catch that ball.
2005-09-14 19:15:26
386.   CanuckDodger
Baseball America associate editor John Manuel said in a radio interview that the Jacksonville Suns have 15 different players that he can see becoming major leaguers. But if he were so smart, I suppose he would be a columnist for the L.A. Times.
2005-09-14 19:16:00
387.   Bob Timmermann
Vin mentions Dave Smith of Retrosheet on the air. I'm sure that may be a high point for Dave.
2005-09-14 19:18:21
388.   Icaros
Is that the same Dave Smith who used to pitch for the Astros?
2005-09-14 19:25:07
389.   Telemachos
Yeeouch -- DJ headed for another 30-pitch first inning.
2005-09-14 19:25:13
390.   DaveP
everyone take a deep breath and maintain your composure as Houlton implodes :)
2005-09-14 19:25:28
391.   Nagman
This looks familiar.
2005-09-14 19:30:45
392.   Mark Linsey
Go DJ Houldini!

Whatever happened to that nickname?

2005-09-14 19:34:44
393.   Jon Weisman
358 - Well, you seem to be missing the part in the story where Bradley allegedly choked his wife at length until she had difficulty breathing and vomited. That'd be one thing.
2005-09-14 19:40:14
394.   Marty
Bob - no Connie Hawkins for all-time Suns team? He may have been the best ever over there.
2005-09-14 19:41:59
395.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
393 - "The case was sent the next day to detectives to investigate, but Bradley's wife told them a differing account and prosecutors rejected the case."
Was she choked, or wasn't she?
2005-09-14 19:42:59
396.   Jon Weisman
What about Rich Kelley and Casey Jacobsen???
2005-09-14 19:45:16
397.   Jon Weisman
395 - Hell if I know. I think we all know how stories can change overnight. None of this discussion is taking place in a courtroom.

358 asked if the tapes help Bradley's cause. I was just responding to that question, not declaring what happened.

2005-09-14 19:45:33
398.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Looking at Hawkins' time in Phoenix, it's not that impressive, at least when considering him for first-team all-franchise. Check those PERs.
2005-09-14 19:45:51
399.   Uncle Miltie
That's why Repko is playing
2005-09-14 19:47:52
400.   Marty
Man, Hawkins was Dr. J before Dr. J. He changed the game as I remember. His finger roll was something to see.
Show/Hide Comments 401-450
2005-09-14 19:48:51
401.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
397 - Oh, I know. I'm not asking you for an answer, just suggesting this case is far less clear-cut than many - including myself - thought it was.
Not a courtroom? That's fine, having been in one not 3 hours ago. (No, I was not being addressed as "Defendant.")
2005-09-14 19:52:02
402.   Gen3Blue
Great to see Kim run them out of an inning.
2005-09-14 19:53:31
403.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
2005-09-14 19:54:03
404.   Jim Hitchcock
Good thing Steve wasn't at the park, or Repko would have popped that up :)
2005-09-14 19:54:31
405.   Bob Timmermann
It seems like the Bradley home is not the easiest place to live and I can only hope that the child doesn't get too messed up.
2005-09-14 19:58:31
406.   King of the Hobos
Aybar gets down in the count 0-2, so he goes the other way with a clean single. Whatever he's doing, he should teach the rest of the team it (save today's 3-6 hitters)
2005-09-14 19:59:19
407.   Uncle Miltie
Does anyone here still doubt that Aybar is legit? (I know he's not this good)
2005-09-14 20:00:39
408.   King of the Hobos
BK is not Cy Young today. That's really too bad
2005-09-14 20:01:49
409.   King of the Hobos
Kent ends the rally with a 1st pitch pop up. That's unfortunate, considering how well BK is pitching
2005-09-14 20:04:38
410.   Bob Timmermann
This could be a case of familiarity catching up with Kim. The Dodgers might not be as bothered by his sidearm stuff since they've faced him three times in a couple of weeks.
2005-09-14 20:06:44
411.   Gen3Blue
Give that whole inning to Repko. As it turned out it was unfortunate Robles double bounced over the fence. I wish there was discretion with that rule.

I'm afraid Houlton isn't Cy tonight either.

2005-09-14 20:07:02
412.   King of the Hobos
Houlton is not very sharp, still can't find the strike zone. He must be tiring on the season, it's been a long one for him. Hopefully he can pitch a few more innings
2005-09-14 20:07:52
413.   ddger
Houlton doesn't look too sharp, Tracy better watch him closely.
2005-09-14 20:08:31
414.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
If Dessens enters the rotation in place of EdJax, who replaces Houlton?
2005-09-14 20:10:55
415.   Jon Weisman
407 - I don't know what your criterion is for legit, but yes, I need to see more. Whenever a player outhits his minor league stats - which at 1.091 OPS, Aybar obviously is - I need to see where he levels off.
2005-09-14 20:13:31
416.   popup
I am just back from wathching the Angels/Mariners at Safeco. Tough traffic on the way back to Tacoma. Rush hour out here is about like rush hour in LA.

388, Icaros, Dave Smith of retrosheet is not the same Dave Smith who pitched for the Astros. I read somewhere that the Dave Smith of retrosheet fame taped the complete game broadcast of Sandy's perfect game. From what I understand he sent copies of the tape to Vin and Sandy. Dave, if you are reading this I would not be at all upset if you sent one to me.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-09-14 20:13:52
417.   Jim Hitchcock
To all those ready to stick a fork in Houlton tonight...hah!
2005-09-14 20:15:43
418.   King of the Hobos
Houlton sure finished up nicely. He's getting the FB over for strikes, so he can get them swinging at a bad pitch. I just hope he doesn't overuse that curve, it's only a matter of time until they can time it a little better. Now feel free to ridicule my observations, as they're probably incorrect
2005-09-14 20:16:17
419.   Bob Timmermann
It was indeed the Dave Smith of Retrosheet and I told him in an email that Vin mentioned his named and he was very excited about it. The Dodgers had asked him to look up the info.

I don't think Dave makes too many copies of his tape of Koufax's perfect game. I think that may be that he doesn't truly own it. It's still under copyright protection.

2005-09-14 20:16:39
420.   Nagman
418 You know that we don't ridicule until they actually turn out to be wrong.
2005-09-14 20:18:21
421.   Jim Hitchcock
418 - Take all the rope you need...

Just kidding. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

2005-09-14 20:23:49
422.   King of the Hobos
You're Dusty Baker. You're in an extra inning tied game, men on 2nd and 3rd, 1 out. Rich Aurilia is at the plate, Sean Casey and Wily Mo Pena are on deck. What do you do? Replacing the pitcher with Neifi is not an option
2005-09-14 20:26:09
423.   King of the Hobos
422 Aurilia was intentionally walked and Casey had a bases clearing double. I still say pitch to Aurilia, but I'm not Dusty Baker
2005-09-14 20:26:59
424.   popup
Bob, any chance Vin could be contacted about donating his tapes and other materials to the LA pubic library? I would not want it to be seen as a buzzard circling in the sky, but Vin's broadcast career is so significant that someone should be gathering as many recordings of his as possible for posterity. The LA public library would seem a fitting place for Vin's papers.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-09-14 20:27:08
425.   DaveP

J.D. Drew having two elective surgeries to clear up debris from his labrum in right shoulder and clean up his right wrist (not the one that was broken this year).

Kelly Wunsch had surgery on his left hip.

Both are expected to be ready for Spring Training.

2005-09-14 20:28:39
426.   Gen3Blue
414-- Maybe someone from Jax?
2005-09-14 20:29:53
427.   Jim Hitchcock
424 - A Vin Scully wing? Or maybe just an alcove?

Good idea, anyway.

2005-09-14 20:32:14
428.   Nagman
What is up with Wunsch's hip? Is this related to the ankle injury at all?
2005-09-14 20:33:03
429.   King of the Hobos
425 Well that answers whether or not Drew can come back this year.

Alvarez and Perez remain the only DL'd players who can come back. Bringing back Perez for the pen with Dessens starting may help. Alvarez coming back is only to give him one last hurrah. The former probably would make the playoff roster, the latter wouldnot

Drew and Izzy are both on the 15 day DL. Anyone else we want brought up in those 2 places if they were put on the 60 day DL? Martin, Hanrahan, Ross, Broxton, and Young do not count, as they're already on the roster

2005-09-14 20:36:05
430.   King of the Hobos
That may have been scrappy, but it was launched. Looks like Tracy did a good job with the line up today
2005-09-14 20:36:44
431.   popup
427, Jim as far as I am concerned Vin should have his own building. I have not been in LA since 1965. To steal a phrase from somewhere else, build it and I will be there. I would like nothing better than spending extended time listening to Vin's broadcasts from the past.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-09-14 20:36:49
432.   Bob Timmermann
Vin doesn't own his broadcasts, the Dodgers do I assume. Some might be owned by MLB now. Or the networks.

I assume that if Vin wants to donate his papers, he would need to give it to a place like the Hall of Fame or a university. LAPL doesn't have a manuscript collection. We just take published books.

For example, you can go to the library in Cooperstown and tell them "Give me the Jason Phillips file" and you will get a bunch of stuff relating to the career of Jason Phillips. It might be kind of thin since he's a relatively new player. But you could go there and ask for the Sandy Koufax file and they will likely give you a couple boxes worth of stuff.

Actually, I think Vin will just leave his baseball stuff, if he has kept much of it, to his grandkids. If he has even a small fraction of what he could potentially have saved throughout the years, he could easily pay for all of them to go to some obscenely overpriced college like Stanford.

2005-09-14 20:38:10
433.   Gen3Blue
I don't think Repko was even in the BA top 30 Dodger prospects. That occasional power is interesting.

425--if only there was an operation to remove his nose from Bora's........

2005-09-14 20:39:18
434.   Jon Weisman
432 - hmm ... huh ... wha???

"The Rich Kelley file, please."

2005-09-14 20:40:01
435.   Bob Timmermann
Wunsch reportedly had a sore hip all year and he decided to get the surgery done now since he had the time to recuperate.
2005-09-14 20:41:44
436.   Adam M
422 - Forgive my ignorance, but was that a real situation? Yikes. The list of situations where I'd pitch to Rich Aurilia is long and includes "#467: Rue McLanahan is on the mound."

Two other comments:
*For the record, for what I'm sure is the millionth time on this board, I'm sure, and approaching the millionth time in my own life, "...F*cking Benitez"
*Where all the fans at? Does this mean people take the Times seriously?

2005-09-14 20:41:48
437.   Gen3Blue
UH--ooh. It looks like someone told these clowns to take some pitches.
2005-09-14 20:43:43
438.   Steve
Did Ken Macha decide to become Jim Tracy when I decided to become an A's fan, was that just coincidence, or has it been like that all year?
2005-09-14 20:43:44
439.   King of the Hobos
Sullivan is reaching Tom Goodwin territory
2005-09-14 20:44:25
440.   CanuckDodger
433 -- Actually, Repko was #30 on Baseball America's Top 30 prospects list for the Dodgers.
2005-09-14 20:44:26
441.   Bob Timmermann
I'm trying to find a picture of Rich Kelley online on the web. He often described himself as the ugliest player in NBA history and it was hard to disagree with him.
2005-09-14 20:45:13
442.   Nagman
441 Paul Mokeski wins that contest.
2005-09-14 20:48:33
443.   Kayaker7
438, it is becoming clear. Steve is the source of our woes. Whichever team he roots for suddenly suffers a sudden decline in the manager's intelligence.
2005-09-14 20:48:58
444.   Jim Hitchcock
Stan, just the fact that you still have so much love and admiration for the man after all these years removed from L.A. is in itself the kind of tribute that Vin would appreciate.
2005-09-14 20:49:22
445.   DaveP
who will relieve Houlton? Guessing he's done after this inning.

I really want to see Kuo pitch tonight.

2005-09-14 20:50:03
446.   Adam M
A player uglier than Georghe Muresan? The mind reels.
2005-09-14 20:51:21
447.   popup
Bob, oh well, it was just a thought. Surprises me that the LA library does not have any manuscript collections, though I guess they would take up quite a bit of space and be costly to maintain.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-09-14 20:51:38
448.   King of the Hobos
I want Houlton to get the win, but this is getting tough. One more out, one more out...
2005-09-14 20:51:49
449.   Bob Timmermann
A contemporary picture of Rich Kelley shows up in this pdf.

2005-09-14 20:52:04
450.   Nagman
When you have a decent lead isn't the idea to throw strikes?
Show/Hide Comments 451-500
2005-09-14 20:53:10
451.   Bob Timmermann
LAPL doesn't really need to have a manuscript collection with two rather large universities in the city to take care of stuff like that.

We'd pretty much have to hire people fulltime to take care of that stuff.

We do have an extensive photo archive however.

2005-09-14 20:54:03
452.   King of the Hobos
I knew that would happen. That's really too bad, hopefully we can keep the lead
2005-09-14 20:54:07
453.   Jim Hitchcock
Well, that sucked.
2005-09-14 20:54:38
454.   Kayaker7
A did I know that this would happen?
2005-09-14 20:54:53
455.   regfairfield
438 He does seem to be making a lot more idiotic bunts of late. Bunts which have caused Athletics Nation to jump the shark.
2005-09-14 20:54:53
456.   Adam M
450 - does that count as a strike?
2005-09-14 20:54:56
457.   ddger
Ouch.. that really hurts...
2005-09-14 20:55:09
458.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
I repeat, who replaces Houlton in the rotation?
2005-09-14 20:55:51
459.   Gen3Blue
I was about to write how that was about the hardest scoreless five I'd ever seen.
Here is where a team like last years keeps scoring, but I'm not optimistic.
2005-09-14 20:56:07
460.   ddger
2005-09-14 20:56:42
461.   Nagman
456 too good of one. It just seemed like he was getting behind every hitter he faced.
2005-09-14 20:56:48
462.   Bob Timmermann
I assume Odalis Perez could start again.
2005-09-14 20:56:58
463.   capdodger
Heh.... At least Trace went to get him.
2005-09-14 20:58:29
464.   jasonungar05
that was sooooo predictable.
2005-09-14 20:58:51
465.   Bob Timmermann
In the first inning, Vin said that Houlton got a first strike hitter on each batter. I guess he lost that touch.
2005-09-14 20:59:53
466.   Nagman
464 Which part, Houlton giving up the slam, Tracy leaving him in for one batter too long, or our calling for Houlton to be removed from the rotation?
2005-09-14 20:59:57
467.   Gen3Blue
Don't tell me Tracy took him out now.
2005-09-14 21:01:06
468.   jasonungar05
466the first two. with an emphisis on #2
2005-09-14 21:01:07
469.   capdodger
458. No one. Penny-Lowe-Weaver-Dessens. At least that was what I think that Vin was suggesting.
2005-09-14 21:02:18
470.   King of the Hobos
462 They want him in the pen. He can't build up his endurance with no minors

Hull pitched a nice game tonight, want to risk a 25 yr old rookie who was terrible in AAA? That happens to be exactly what we have out there, maybe the other is less tired

I knew the Ishii impersonation wouldn't last, only Ishii can get away with that

2005-09-14 21:02:19
471.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
469 - I could get behind a 4-man rotation.
2005-09-14 21:02:43
472.   werthgagne31
the announcers on espn were saying that tracy was trying to let houlton get thru the 5th inning so he can qualify for the win, and obviously houlton was struggling all game and was over 100 pitches in the 5th inning.
these personal stats that players want hurt the team.
and tracy's decision to try to get houlton the win is just flat out assenine.
i've seen tracy do this so many times, trying to let the starter qualify for the win and end up blowing the game.
if i was manager i would not jepordize wins for my players personal stats.
tracy is a flat out idiot/cancer that needs to be removed, anyone defending tracy needs to get their head checked.
2005-09-14 21:03:02
473.   Jim Hitchcock
The following is my Joe DiMaggio on Dodger Thoughts impression:


2005-09-14 21:04:13
474.   popup
444, Jim, actually I have never lived in LA or Brooklyn either for that matter. I do appreciate Vin, though I have never been able to listen to him on a consistent basis. That is my loss, though thanks to tape recordings and some mp3's, I do have quite a few recordings of Vin's broadcasts. Those recordings are among my most prized baseball items.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-09-14 21:04:36
475.   capdodger
Way to go Tomato!!!
2005-09-14 21:04:42
476.   jasonungar05
that a boy tomato

Garret Atkins is on my fantasy team at least.

- He has 4 rbi and has left 5 runners on base tonight

2005-09-14 21:04:52
477.   Jim Hitchcock
472 - Lotta anger there, WG31.
2005-09-14 21:05:00
478.   King of the Hobos
Osoria seems to make about 5 pitches an inning, why not start him? He could do a great Silva impersonation. Last time he started regularly? At age 19 with the Dominican Dodgers

Woohoo Saenz!

2005-09-14 21:05:07
479.   Nagman
What criteria does the offical scorer use to determine the winning pitcher if the Dodgers maintain the lead?
2005-09-14 21:06:43
480.   King of the Hobos
479 First pitcher after the starter. Osoria gets the win if we keep the lead
2005-09-14 21:07:41
481.   Nagman
Even if he faces one hitter and doesn't record an out?
2005-09-14 21:08:33
482.   DaveP
472 - so I'm guessing you aren't a big Tracy fan?
2005-09-14 21:09:21
483.   Ryan Jerz
461 Although it's generally the guy who gets them through the 5th, barring any lead changes, I believe the rule is subjective. Whomever pitches "best" can be awarded the win.
2005-09-14 21:10:14
484.   Ryan Jerz
by 461 I mean 481
2005-09-14 21:11:11
485.   Steve
I know that this is supreme irony, but why would you pull Houlton there?
2005-09-14 21:11:35
486.   werthgagne31
i'm just sick of tracy, and sick of hearing what a wonderfull manager he is.
anybody with a brain would have taken houlton out before tracy did, i mean inconsistant all game and over 100 pitches.
but good ol tracy has to be a bleeding heart liberal and try to get houlton a win.
if you can't pitch good you don't get a win, simple as that.
houlton did not even deserve the win tonight.
2005-09-14 21:11:35
487.   Gen3Blue
2005-09-14 21:12:04
488.   King of the Hobos
Ya, it can be objective, but a general rule of thumb

Will Aybar keep starting now? That was not timely, but if someone can get out of this, i suppose Osoria can

2005-09-14 21:12:14
489.   Nagman
Thanks. I knew there was some subjectiveness to it but I wondered if there were any general guidelines to determine who was "best".
2005-09-14 21:12:42
490.   Gen3Blue
Saenz went up the foot- stool.
2005-09-14 21:13:09
491.   King of the Hobos
488 That was a rotten post, just skip it
2005-09-14 21:14:26
492.   Jim Hitchcock
A bleeding heart liberal? Hmmm...
2005-09-14 21:15:08
493.   King of the Hobos
The walk is a sinker baller's worst friend, especially with Sullivan up. Hope the error didn't hurt Osoria's focus
2005-09-14 21:16:26
494.   Jon Weisman
This is a fine mess, Ollie.
2005-09-14 21:16:34
495.   King of the Hobos
This doesn't look good. That error was bigger than I thought. Wish we could get a 1-2-3 inning this game
2005-09-14 21:17:33
496.   ddger
Could really use LOOGY right now against Helton.
2005-09-14 21:18:16
497.   Nagman
Tracy should've pulled him. Osorio was already in line for the win. :-)
2005-09-14 21:18:35
498.   King of the Hobos
Ugh, not our night. I was looking forward to the win. That error seemed to have completely thrown Osoria off his game
2005-09-14 21:18:43
499.   Steve
486 -- I retract. 111 pitches? That's nonsense. Of course. (I'm only watching with one eye while I put the kids to bed)
2005-09-14 21:18:59
500.   Icaros
Did Kuo die at some point in the past week?
Show/Hide Comments 501-550
2005-09-14 21:19:30
501.   capdodger
2005-09-14 21:19:42
502.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Kent twice misplayed that. Still got the DP.
2005-09-14 21:19:44
503.   King of the Hobos
One batter too many until the Osoria speciality. Can our Dessensless pen kepp it tied?
2005-09-14 21:21:37
504.   jasonungar05
damn u padres, we should be out of this thing and I should not be watching this.
2005-09-14 21:21:44
505.   King of the Hobos
500 Kuo can only pitch when we are winning by at least the number of runs in his ERA. It'll be a long wait for the game we outscore the opponent by 54 runs
2005-09-14 21:22:31
506.   King of the Hobos
At least Hurdle doesn't want to win this game. I don't see any other reason for Jamey Wright to pitch
2005-09-14 21:22:43
507.   capdodger
Ok... So it's a new game with tht Dodgers getting an extra AB.

And as a bonus they get an inning of Mr. Wright.

2005-09-14 21:24:28
508.   King of the Hobos
I have no idea how he caught that
2005-09-14 21:25:11
509.   Icaros
505 If he's going to be held to that ERA, he should have been given the chance to actually give up the runs to the two batters he walked.

Schmoll (I believe it was him) certainly didn't pick Kuo up.

2005-09-14 21:25:11
510.   capdodger
2005-09-14 21:25:29
511.   regfairfield
That was a rather amazing play.

Hey Grabowski, haven't seen him in a while.

2005-09-14 21:26:30
512.   King of the Hobos
That's what we get for complaining about wasting Choi yesterday
2005-09-14 21:26:43
513.   D4P

Can't say I missed him.

2005-09-14 21:26:48
514.   Steve
Grabowski excites the crowd with the first pitch groundout. Pinch hitting is hard.
2005-09-14 21:27:30
515.   Steve
Well, at least Carrara is rested and ready to go
2005-09-14 21:28:43
516.   King of the Hobos
Not scoring in 3 innings of Dohman and Wright is inexcusable. Although, when we throw Grabowski and Repko vs Wright, there is an excuse
2005-09-14 21:29:21
517.   Bob Timmermann
The Brewers and DBacks are tied 1-1 in the 8th. Brandon Webb balked home the tying run.
2005-09-14 21:30:44
518.   Icaros
Good work, Gio. Now please don't come back for the 8th.
2005-09-14 21:30:54
519.   King of the Hobos
Carrara makes 5 pitches, can he go another despite 2.1 yesterday? Is Kuo dead? Will Brazoban and Sanchez finish the game as these 4 collective relievers are the only ones that pitch anymore?
2005-09-14 21:31:54
520.   King of the Hobos
So how do we predict Aybar will make up for the error? Single? Double? 6-3?
2005-09-14 21:33:19
521.   ddger
how about a walk
2005-09-14 21:33:46
522.   King of the Hobos
520 The answer was walk. Not bad, I certainly won't complain
2005-09-14 21:33:56
523.   Adam M
Thank you Clint Hurdle.
2005-09-14 21:34:53
524.   King of the Hobos
Just let him walk Tracy, it's better than a swing and a CS in front of Kent
2005-09-14 21:36:13
525.   Adam M
That's about Wright.
2005-09-14 21:36:16
526.   King of the Hobos
What can I say, it worked. I can't complain...
2005-09-14 21:36:32
527.   Jon Weisman
The offense, whatever you think about the lineups, has been scoring enough to win all week. Again, it's run prevention letting us down.

When E! does the True Hollywood Story on this season, they had better find some time to cover the pitching.

2005-09-14 21:36:38
528.   Jim Hitchcock
Wow. Two successful hit and runs tonight (even though they were run and hits).
2005-09-14 21:36:46
529.   ddger
Looks like Robles came out of his slump today.
2005-09-14 21:36:54
530.   Icaros
Oscar Robles: Situational Hitter
2005-09-14 21:37:34
531.   capdodger
So... Anyone think Tracy will squeeze with Kent?
2005-09-14 21:38:03
532.   ddger
that didn't help Kent's stats but we got a run
2005-09-14 21:38:06
533.   King of the Hobos
Well...we scored at least. Not the best finish really
2005-09-14 21:38:15
534.   Bob Timmermann
Double the Olneys!
2005-09-14 21:38:35
535.   Icaros
You hate to see a great player lose an Olney like that.
2005-09-14 21:38:49
536.   Bob Timmermann
The DBacks have the bases loaded and two outs on an error, an HBP, and a walk.
2005-09-14 21:39:31
537.   King of the Hobos
Is this a save situation? Can Brazoban pitch?
2005-09-14 21:40:21
538.   Icaros
534 Are you calling that DP an Olney, Bob? What's the official definition? No RBI, yes Olney?
2005-09-14 21:40:43
539.   Steve
Brazoban can only pitch in non-save situations.
2005-09-14 21:41:06
540.   capdodger
537. He's not the closer anymore. Of course he can pitch in a non-save situation. But he won't be able to handle the pressure of a save.

Or something like that...

2005-09-14 21:41:24
541.   Adam M
Was that the rare double-half-Olney?

And for the record, calling them "Busters" sounds better to me. "Yes, but what a Buster!" sounds almost as good as Vin saying, "..the All-American Rejects."

2005-09-14 21:41:52
542.   King of the Hobos
Was ensuring a Werth AB really worth the Choi AB? Hopefully Ledee is ok
2005-09-14 21:43:15
543.   Steve
Say prayers of supplication every morning to whatever God you believe in that Aaron Miles is infesting someone else's roster.
2005-09-14 21:43:23
544.   Bob Timmermann
Actually I don't think Buster gave out productive outs for GIDPs. But it was a clutch GIDP!
2005-09-14 21:43:57
545.   King of the Hobos
Not a good 0-2 pitch right there
2005-09-14 21:44:08
546.   Jon Weisman
Steve, you don't care that posterity won't note the sarcasm in comment 539 on September 14, 2005, do you ...
2005-09-14 21:44:28
547.   overkill94
Way to give up the 0-2 gapper Brazoban, just when I think you're getting things figured out...
2005-09-14 21:45:28
548.   Icaros
I'm really going to be mad if a guy named Choo scores the tying run.
2005-09-14 21:46:42
549.   werthgagne31
thats because tracy has had only 1 or 2 guys in the lineup that shouldn't be in there all week, opposed to most of the season having 3-5 guys in the lineup that shouldn't be in there.
remember the phillips,valentin,repko,edwards days or the izturis,repko,phillips,edwards days or the worst izturis,phillips,repko,valentin,edwards days.
2005-09-14 21:46:44
550.   regfairfield
547 To be fair, he did give it up to a roided man.
Show/Hide Comments 551-600
2005-09-14 21:46:50
551.   Steve
Houlton should have been taken out on general principles just for letting Cory Sullivan get on base three times. If Aaron Miles bulked up on steroids and started pounding the ball, he would be Cory Sullivan.
2005-09-14 21:47:21
552.   DaveP
maybe Tracy is just keeping Kuo fresh. Given that he averages around 10 innings per year (over the last 5), that 1/3 of an inning in colorado might have been his quota for the month of September :)
2005-09-14 21:48:07
553.   King of the Hobos
I really hate Sullivan. Can't someone pitch to him?
2005-09-14 21:48:17
554.   Icaros
I hate baseball.
2005-09-14 21:48:24
555.   Steve
Kuo has bad career numbers against Colorado
2005-09-14 21:48:41
556.   capdodger
Let's see if Braz can retire Sullivan.


Good night...

2005-09-14 21:48:44
557.   Bob Timmermann
Gio Carrara wonders where his cheap win went.
2005-09-14 21:48:46
558.   Sam DC
I'm sure someone (read: Timmermann) already flagged this, but I zoomed through and didn't see it -- AZ, MW tied at 1-1; Brandon Webb balked in the only Brewers run.
2005-09-14 21:49:17
559.   Steve
I would say that on that pitch, Brazoban just proved that he can't pitch in any situation.
2005-09-14 21:49:31
560.   Uncle Miltie
Nice..throwing a fastball down the middle to fastball hitter, why not throw his newly found changeup?

Kent also deserves a fair share of the blame. Horrible at bat and made 2 outs on 1 play.

2005-09-14 21:49:48
561.   King of the Hobos
Sullivan is so pesky to Dodgers pitchers, even Kuo has walked him
2005-09-14 21:49:54
562.   coachjpark
Can we blame JT for anything today, or is today a non-managerial incompetence losing situation?
2005-09-14 21:51:26
563.   King of the Hobos
So what are the odds that teh Dodgers score another run? They can't hit Fuentes to save their lives, so the 8th inning it is.
2005-09-14 21:51:35
564.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Does BPro still have Brazoban as the ghame's worst reliever?
2005-09-14 21:52:02
565.   Steve
Letting Houlton pitch through was pretty incompetent. But I think Brazoban gets to be incompetent on his own.
2005-09-14 21:52:10
566.   regfairfield
562 If you really want to reach, he could have pulled Houlton, but, realistically, no.
2005-09-14 21:52:33
567.   King of the Hobos
562 They'll complain, but this game is a result of 3 pitches
2005-09-14 21:52:59
568.   werthgagne31
blame the grand slam on tracy, anyone with half a brain which tracy doesn't have would have taken houlton out of the game after 4 innings, but tracy had to be a bleeding heart and try to get houlton to qualify for the win.
2005-09-14 21:53:05
569.   regfairfield
560 I bet you didn't like Piazza either.
2005-09-14 21:53:36
570.   Steve
566 -- That doesn't seem like much of a reach. Houlton threw 111 pitches. Weaver is usually near done at 85.
2005-09-14 21:54:21
571.   ddger
our spotless record (31-0) when scoring 7 or more runs is at stake
2005-09-14 21:54:44
572.   overkill94
562 Well, Choi's not playing against a righty, but that's about it. Can't even blame him for letting Houlton pitch to Atkins, that guy has an OPS of .581 on the road.
2005-09-14 21:54:58
573.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Nope, third worst.
Ahead of KC's Leonel Nunez (parents couldn't decide between "Leon" and "Lionel") and Brian Bruney of the D-Backs.
2005-09-14 21:55:10
574.   Uncle Miltie
Sullivan is a very mediocre hitter. Brazoban had an 8 inning scoreless streak going, but I still wouldn't pitch him in close games. He needs to stop throwing that flat fastball down the middle. Maybe he should talk to Sanchez about how important it is to mix in your offspeed pitch.
2005-09-14 21:55:33
575.   Bob Timmermann
If it's Expected Wins Added, the worst reliever is Shawn Camp of Kansas City.

If it's Expected Runs, it's Leonel Nunez of Kansas City.

If it's Inherited Runners Scored, it's Dae-Sung Koo of the Mets.

2005-09-14 21:55:59
576.   King of the Hobos
Now we can steal at will
2005-09-14 21:56:50
577.   regfairfield
Run, Olmedo, run!
2005-09-14 21:57:16
578.   overkill94
Has anyone ever been pulled without giving up any runs with a 5-0 lead? I'd assumed Houlton would give up a 2-run single and be pulled, the grand slam was the last thing on my mind, Atkins has 2 HR in 215 road at-bats this year.
2005-09-14 21:57:30
579.   Bob Timmermann
All together now, people,

You can't steal first base!

2005-09-14 21:59:38
580.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
575 - Explains much about KC's season.
2005-09-14 22:00:39
581.   Uncle Miltie
Tracy will only steal with a few players on the team:
Antonio Perez
Jayson Werth
Oscar Robles
Jason Repko (but he doesn't get on base)
2005-09-14 22:00:41
582.   Steve
578 -- when your pitcher has thrown 107 pitches and it is the fifth inning, I don't understand why anyone would wait to find out. I hadn't been watching very closely, and thought the same way you did, but didn't realize how many pitches Houlton had thrown. I assume someone in the dugout is counting though. Maybe.
2005-09-14 22:01:05
583.   overkill94
D-backs update - wonderchild Rickie Weeks caps off an 0-3 with 3 K's performance (along with an error) by flying out with the bases loaded and 1 out. It's now up to Damian Miller, god help us.
2005-09-14 22:01:06
584.   DaveP
Is Brazoban assured a spot in the pen next year? Going to be lots of guys with a shot in the spring.
2005-09-14 22:01:21
585.   Steve
You can't stop Mike DeJean you can only hope to contain him.
2005-09-14 22:01:43
586.   overkill94
582 good point, i wasn't watching the game that close either
2005-09-14 22:02:13
587.   Bob Timmermann
"Bad Day at Black Rock" which Vin has referenced many times has a line it, spoken by Walter Brennan, which is sort of my motto:

"I feel for you, but I'm consumed with apathy."

It's a great movie.

2005-09-14 22:02:22
588.   Steve
Damian Miller can only hit in non-save situations.
2005-09-14 22:02:43
589.   King of the Hobos
If we get a man on, Robles will face Fuentes. Why does he always face Fuentes? HBP or pray for rain in that match up
2005-09-14 22:04:15
590.   Nagman
We should've prayed for rain after the 5th.
2005-09-14 22:04:24
591.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Does Tom Clancy receive royalties whenever ESPN breka out the "THE HUNT FOR OCTOBER" graphic?
2005-09-14 22:05:06
592.   capdodger
589 - It's past the 5th inning. Praying for rain would be akin to praying for it to all end. I'd be all for that now.
2005-09-14 22:05:29
593.   Steve
werthgagne has this exactly right. If Houlton has thrown 75 pitches and this is a test, there is really no better time than the present. But in this case, where he didn't really pitch that well, he had thrown 107 pitches, etc., and the only reason to leave him in is for some meaningless "win" (which, of course, now he is not going to get), is an absurd reason for leaving him in.

And of course, the response to that is that most managers would do that. So now you can save your response, and the rest of us can continue to understand that most managers have brains the size of small walnuts.

2005-09-14 22:06:34
594.   Nagman
Does Repko hit? He's hit the ball hard tonight.
2005-09-14 22:07:13
595.   overkill94
Corey Sullivan vs. the Dodgers: .436
vs. the rest of the leauge: .251

I think we have the new Jim Eisenreich

2005-09-14 22:07:19
596.   Uncle Miltie
Please tell me that Tracy isn't going to let Repko hit and he'll pinch hit using Choi
2005-09-14 22:07:25
597.   Steve
Does Perez hit for Repko, or is this The Song That Never Ends?
2005-09-14 22:08:26
598.   Steve
Or even better, does Phillips hit for Repko?
2005-09-14 22:08:37
599.   coachjpark
We win if we get to Kent. We lose if we don't.
2005-09-14 22:09:03
600.   coachjpark
Show/Hide Comments 601-650
2005-09-14 22:09:28
601.   Uncle Miltie
Forgot that the Rockies closer is left handed
2005-09-14 22:09:46
602.   coachjpark
Does Phillips hit for Robles?
2005-09-14 22:10:59
603.   Uncle Miltie
Steal now!
2005-09-14 22:11:07
604.   DaveP
now we get to see the bunt..
2005-09-14 22:11:30
605.   regfairfield
And now Werth bunts.
2005-09-14 22:11:54
606.   coachjpark
Should we bunt?
2005-09-14 22:12:07
607.   Steve
I like Phillips for Robles. That would work.
2005-09-14 22:12:20
608.   Icaros
So now you can save your response, and the rest of us can continue to understand that most managers have brains the size of small walnuts.

I appreciate that Steve specified small walnuts in this case.

2005-09-14 22:12:43
609.   King of the Hobos
JD Closser is behind the plate, we could have stolen that. errr...
2005-09-14 22:12:53
610.   coachjpark
It's up to Aybar/Robles... if Kent gets up, he'll be walked... the great Mike Edwards is protecting him in the lineup.
2005-09-14 22:13:00
611.   Uncle Miltie
Stupid Tracy!
2005-09-14 22:13:00
612.   regfairfield
Well, that seems to hurt the "pray we get to Kent" plan.
2005-09-14 22:13:06
613.   Steve
Ah yes, the old bunt for Willy Aybar and Robles/Phillips/Mike Rose routine.
2005-09-14 22:13:57
614.   coachjpark
NICE! 3-0.
2005-09-14 22:14:01
615.   Nagman
Heck, Werth could've worked a walk.
2005-09-14 22:14:26
616.   Steve
We are not going to pitch to Willy Aybar?

This is not exactly the MENSA convention here at Dodger Stadium folks.

2005-09-14 22:14:55
617.   regfairfield
Fuentes' inability to find the strike zone makes the bunt a bit more upsetting.
2005-09-14 22:15:19
618.   King of the Hobos
With the 3-0 count, that really hurts. Now Robles needs to get on
2005-09-14 22:15:22
619.   coachjpark
Our season hinges on Oscar RRRRRObles....
2005-09-14 22:15:48
620.   ddger
Robles's chance to make up for last night.
2005-09-14 22:16:04
621.   coachjpark
Robles needs a hit. A walk gives us Edwards bases loaded.
2005-09-14 22:16:09
622.   Uncle Miltie
Tracy is going to look really bad after this game
2005-09-14 22:16:09
623.   Icaros
Uh, don't swing, Oscar.
2005-09-14 22:16:42
624.   Gen3Blue
It doesn't absolve us, but Ay-bar got screwed on a call.
2005-09-14 22:17:00
625.   Gen3Blue
It doesn't absolve us, but Ay-bar got screwed on a call.
2005-09-14 22:17:10
626.   overkill94
Man, Robles seems to be getting some crappy calls lately (last night's called third withstanding).
2005-09-14 22:17:19
627.   coachjpark
Swing, Oscar... swing!
2005-09-14 22:17:44
628.   coachjpark
Walk-off HR man, come on!!!
2005-09-14 22:17:45
629.   jasonungar05
where is shawn chacon when we really need him? LOL
2005-09-14 22:18:03
630.   Uncle Miltie
This umpire is awful!
2005-09-14 22:18:44
631.   coachjpark
If Kent comes up, is it an intentional walk?
2005-09-14 22:18:58
632.   werthgagne31
you can chalk up this loss to tracy wanting to get houlton to qualify for the win, and you can add this loss to the long list of losses charged to tracy.
there is no doubt in my mind that we would be in first place in our division if it wasn't for tracy, even with all the injuries.
tracy = cancer.
2005-09-14 22:18:58
633.   coachjpark
2005-09-14 22:18:59
634.   Icaros
Theodore Hickman: "Can we finally give up on this silly pipe-dream?"
2005-09-14 22:19:25
635.   overkill94
I hear some nails going in a coffin somewhere near Pasadena...
2005-09-14 22:19:27
636.   Bob Timmermann
San Diego magic number: 12
2005-09-14 22:19:47
637.   King of the Hobos
That was an extremely poorly executed inning, a run should have been guarunteed. 6 games back, hope we can take 3 of 4 to spoil the Giants
2005-09-14 22:20:51
638.   Gen3Blue
Its no big deal Kent didn't get up after his last two at bats.

The difference this year could be the Rockies slapping us around.

2005-09-14 22:21:10
639.   regfairfield
I really don't see how you can blame a guy for not pulling a pitcher while leading 5-0 and facing the mighty Garret Atkins. Yeah, he threw a lot of pitches, but it was a 5-0 lead.

This is probably something like number 65 on the list of losses you can blame on Tracy this year.

2005-09-14 22:21:23
640.   coachjpark
What kind of lineup will Tracy field now?
2005-09-14 22:21:38
641.   oldbear
Only 17 more games left of Buntermaker. Acceptance.
2005-09-14 22:21:59
642.   Steve
Another cruel irony: I even gave Tracy permission to use Jason Phillips.
2005-09-14 22:23:23
643.   DaveP
personally, I'll chalk this one up to pitchers not getting the job done. Sure he could have pulled Houlton earlier, but overall the pitchers stunk tonight.

I'm looking more towards '06 and happy to see Aybar getting some at bats to see what he can do. I'd like to see Choi finish up the year at 1B (ever day) and Kuo get some innings in to see what he's got.

2005-09-14 22:25:50
644.   Bob Timmermann
Carrara pitched well. As did Sanchez.

But the rest, well, not so hot.

2005-09-14 22:26:04
645.   oldbear
Tracy was managing for individual stats with DJ Houlton. I thought this was a team game? 110 pitches in the 5th inning. Bases Juiced. You pull him.

Why bunt with Werth when he can easily draw a walk to advance the runner? Fuentess was all over the place.

Leaving the game in the hands of a rookie like Aybar, and a left handed hitting Robles (LH's hitting .150 against Fuetnes this season)...

Another Jim Tracy loss. I hope DePo is keeping track of them.

2005-09-14 22:26:59
646.   ddger
Cheer up everyone. At least the Suns won today 1-0 to tie up their series 1-1. We can start pulling for the Suns now.
2005-09-14 22:29:04
647.   Icaros
This field FSN reporter, Patrick O'Neal, is an annoying little punk. Let Carloyn Hughes come back with her Scarlet A already.
2005-09-14 22:31:16
648.   Midwest Blue
I hope this satisfies everyone who was actually happy that the Giants lost today. We could have still been 5-back with a Pad loss. This weekend should (could) be the the end of the season for me.

What was Dan Rather's tag line: Courage.

2005-09-14 22:31:55
649.   Bob Timmermann

Do you have any evidence whatsoever that Tracy left Houlton just to get a win? Any? Or maybe he just thought he could get out of the inning?

And I doubt that the front office "counts" losses by the manager. But you do. That's all you do.

Sheesh. You are the most bitter human being who accepts defeat in the worst way.

The Rockies scored 8 runs. The Dodgers scored 7.

The Rockies won. The Dodgers lost.

2005-09-14 22:34:35
650.   ddger
647 Isn't he actor Ryan O'Neal's son.
Show/Hide Comments 651-700
2005-09-14 22:35:31
651.   still bevens
Is this the first game the Dodgers lost after scoring 7 runs?

It seems to me that this game reinforces the mini-discussion WAYYYY upthreat that Tracy himself is in acceptance and has been managing accordingly. Keeping Houlton out there just to see if he could get himself out of the jam, etc.

2005-09-14 22:35:46
652.   Jim Hitchcock
there is no doubt in my mind that we would be in first place in our division if it wasn't for tracy, even with all the injuries.

Baseball, as in life, is rarely defined in black and white.

2005-09-14 22:36:12
653.   Icaros
650 I don't know. Have you heard that? He doesn't especially look like him.

Ryan O'Neal was great as Barry Lyndon.

2005-09-14 22:36:32
654.   Jon Weisman
Bob ... tense times, you know I know, but don't go that direction.
2005-09-14 22:37:07
655.   coachjpark

Good article about Tracy's job... definitely more balanced than Plaschke's article. I agree with this article about 90% as I think a majority of DT posters probably would as well.

If JT can just buy into what DePo wants to do, he might be able to do a decent job.

2005-09-14 22:37:34
656.   Jim Hitchcock
Damn, Bob said it much better than I did. Thank you, Bob.
2005-09-14 22:37:49
657.   werthgagne31
exactly, tracy was managing for personal stats for houlton, and i've seen this plenty of other times from tracy.

and whoever was saying it was a 5-0 lead which means you shouldn't pull the pitcher if he hasn't given up any runs, is a rediculous argument.
and if you are saying that its a big enough lead that you don't need to pull your starter is also a rediculous argument.
if you watched the game like i did, you would have noticed that houlton was putting guys on base all game and got lucky to get out of all those jams before the 5th inning and had his pitch count over 100 in the 5th, and had no control of his pitches which is key, if you don't know where your pitches will end up sooner or later you are going to throw one in the fat part of the plate which is what happened and a midget will be able to hit it out.

what do some of you want, mediocrity from the dodgers, cause thats what your going to get if you think that a starting pitcher that has no idea of where his pitches will end up and has been putting guys on base all game long should not be pulled after getting close to 100 pitches.

2005-09-14 22:37:53
658.   Steve
Somebody tell me there is hope for Brazoban. Somebody. Anybody. I'll even take somebody making something up.
2005-09-14 22:39:05
659.   ddger
653 That's what I heard. He's also lucky guy being married to Rebecca DeMornay (Risky Business).
2005-09-14 22:39:35
660.   Bob Timmermann
Anyway, Patrick O'Neal is the son of Ryan O'Neal and Leigh Taylor-Young and is married to Rebecca De Mornay.
2005-09-14 22:40:32
661.   Bob Timmermann
I apologize for my tone. Actually Jim's post was a lot more concise.

I was just angry.

2005-09-14 22:41:52
662.   werthgagne31
the espn announcers were saying that tracy was trying to get houlton to qualify for the win, they were totally blunt about it.
and i have seen this several different times.
there is no doubt in my mind that tracy was trying to get houlton to qualify for the win.
2005-09-14 22:42:29
663.   oldbear
645. What other rationale for leaving Houlton in the game with 2 outs in the 5th inning?

You think if Houlton was at 111 pitches in the 4th inning, that Tracy would have left him to get the 3rd out?

It was ENTIRELY about personal stats. That,or Tracy is even more dense than even I think he is.

DJ Houlton, who was struggling most of the game, at 111 pitches, is a better option to use to get out of that inning than anyone we have fresh in the pen?

If its either the 4th inning, or the 6th inning... And same situation.. Houlton is pulled.

You'd have to be blind not to recognize the only reason Tracy left him in was to qualify for the win.

I'm bitter about this team's on field managing, and the continued mistakes that occur night in and night out, that really shouldnt be.

Its called being a fan.

2005-09-14 22:42:40
664.   Steve
Tatum O'Neal would make a good Cory Sullivan.
2005-09-14 22:43:25
665.   Icaros
659, 660 - Thanks for the info. Maybe I was being harsh, but he was really coming off like a Plaschke.
2005-09-14 22:44:28
666.   DaveP
657 - well, if you're at the point that a midget will be able to hit it out, then everything changes. Of course you pull him at that point :)

It might be time for people to re-read Jon's post from this morning and relax a little.

658 - Brazoban will eventually have an award named after him which will be given out annually to the combeback closer of the year. Did that help?

2005-09-14 22:45:01
667.   Jim Hitchcock
He's also lucky guy being married to Rebecca DeMornay (Risky Business).

The unlucky part is that would make him Wally George's son-in-law.

2005-09-14 22:46:02
668.   Steve
Jim! I was going to type that! You've thwarted me again!
2005-09-14 22:47:41
669.   ddger
667 Didn't realize that part. :)
2005-09-14 22:49:28
670.   ddger
At least Patrick doesn't have to see Wally anymore.
2005-09-14 22:50:54
671.   Icaros
You mean you're not a Wally George fan, Steve?
2005-09-14 22:51:26
672.   oldbear
657. Good point. Another point is that after the 100 pitch mark, fatigue can set in rapidly, causing more chances of ineffectiveness and injury.

Team wins should be all that matters. How many times did Tracy use Gagne just because it was a 'save' situation? Even if the situation resulted from Gagne only needing to get 1 out and the tying run in the on deck circle. Totally unnecessary time to use Gagne, but since it padded his stats. Tracy would use him.

I think baseball is gradually changing into the more sabermetric philosophy, but I also believe there needs to be an emphasis placed on team wins, rather than individual wins, saves, etc...

Note Tracy isnt the only manager that does this. Most do. But I think its an inefficent area in which baseball analysts can exploit.

It sort of plays into the "Use your best pitcher at the most important time of the game" argument. Who cares about counting stats like wins, saves... All that matters in the end are whether a pitcher can get the batter out, irregardless if he gets credit for a W, L, H, or S...

2005-09-14 22:51:30
673.   Midwest Blue
658 Steve, Braz will come back and be the best reliever we have!

(I'm making that up. He's toast)

2005-09-14 22:53:13
674.   Bob Timmermann
So there are just team wins and team losses, but Jim Tracy has single-handedly cost the Dodgers the division lead?
2005-09-14 22:58:16
675.   werthgagne31
exactly, i couldn't have said it better.

and yes most managers do, and that needs to change, you manage to win the game, not to pad someone's stats.

2005-09-14 22:59:22
676.   Jim Hitchcock
674 - Or to put it another way, if Jim Tracy managed the Cards, would they be under .500?
2005-09-14 23:00:29
677.   DaveP
674 - I think that's the jist of it.

I wonder if the bullpen throwing 7 2/3 innings yesterday and Dessens not in the pen today since he's going Sunday also had something to do with trying to squeeze a few more outs of a badly tiring pitcher. I know, I have to be blind and a midget could have hit it out, etc, etc, but just wondering if that might have had anything to do with it, rather than this focus on getting Houlton the win.

2005-09-14 23:01:39
678.   Eric L

It's going to take a manager (and GM for that matter) with a huge set of stones to go back to the "pitch your best pitcher in the most important situation".

It is an area to be exploited, but the mess the orginization is going to take from the players and agents for not getting the guys their counting stats is going to be rough (initially).

2005-09-14 23:06:12
679.   werthgagne31
yes he has.
i've lost count on how many games were lost because of tracy, and i'm not even counting the lineups that consisted of izturis,phillips,valentin,repko,edwards ect. because you can't exactly say that on that perticular game choi,ledde,perez,werth would have done better, but common sense says put your best available guys in the lineup.
i'm just counting in game decisions only, we would be right with the padres.
and i bet if he would have used the best guys available in the lineup we would have a comfortable lead in the division right now, just like the padres have right now, and this is with all the injuries.
2005-09-14 23:09:37
680.   Steve
671 -- What gives you that idea, you commie, pinko, liberal, unamerican creep!?
2005-09-14 23:13:57
681.   Jim Hitchcock
679 - And what about the in game moves that have played out as intended? Those have to be a part of your argument also.

Every decision in a game is essentially a roll of the dice. To concentrate only on the negative outcomes to support your prejudices does not make an argument.

2005-09-14 23:14:57
682.   Bob Timmermann

And Tracy is marginally that worse in your opinion that Bruce Bochy or Jim Tracy? You are mixing logic with invective. But your world view depends upon identifying the fall guy. And you have yours.

2005-09-14 23:15:07
683.   Jim Hitchcock
680 - You left out the part about not supporting the troops, Steve :)
2005-09-14 23:18:33
684.   Bob Timmermann
I should have said "Is Tracy marginally worse than Bruce Bochy or Felipe Alou?"
2005-09-14 23:26:37
685.   werthgagne31
first of all you put your best guys in the lineup and recognize that your starting pitcher doesn't have it and pull him before he blows the game, these things keep you out of tight games, and have you noticed all the tight games we have had with tracy as the manager.
someone pointed out that tracy's dodgers have been in an overwhelmingly amount of tight games, most of those tight games wouldn't have happened if the above mentioned didn't happen along with tracy's using the worst relievers available in tight situations most of the time.

i've explained this so many times and people still don't get it.

take gagne away from tracy and he can't figure out what to do.

tracy has been babied with his past teams with a proven set up man and a proven closer.

and do i have to point out the fact that he has played phillips over choi and robles over antonio perez, and izturis over perez and izturis leading off and phillips batting cleanup and giving kent a day off before a scheduled day off and i can keep going on and on.

tracy is cancer period.

2005-09-14 23:28:28
686.   Bob Timmermann
Well, I'm off to go have a conversation with my nearby brick wall.
2005-09-14 23:30:22
687.   Jim Hitchcock
So, by your logic, the success of 2004 was due to Gagne and Mota, eh?
2005-09-14 23:32:42
688.   werthgagne31
i don't follow any other team than the dodgers.
i don't look at other team's stats, i don't watch other team's games.
so i can't answer your question.
i would imagine that no one is worse than tracy, but i don't know.

anyways i got college classes in the morning and have to get up in 4 1/2 hours so i'm off to bed.

2005-09-14 23:33:50
689.   Steve
683 -- I support the troops, unlike you liberal, namby-pamby, bleeding heart America-haters. (Audience: BOOOO!!! BOOO!!!)

And now my next guest is the most un-American thing in the entire world (Audience: BOOOOO!!!! BOOOO!!!) - she strips for money!!! (Audience: YAY!!!! BOOO!!!!! WOO! WOO! WOO!) Isn't that the most horrible thing you've ever heard? That is un-American, and if she doesn't like it, she should go to some America-hating country like France! (Audience: BOOO!!!)

2005-09-14 23:35:13
690.   Bob Timmermann

Well, at least college is opening your mind to different ideas and how complex the world is....

2005-09-14 23:35:22
691.   werthgagne31
the success of not that many tracy bullpen blunders was because of mota and gagne.
not the success of 2004 in general.
2005-09-14 23:35:51
692.   Steve
ah-ha! I avoided almost an entire Jim Tracy argument. The electro-shock is working nicely.
2005-09-14 23:37:39
693.   oldbear
678. Oh I agree totally. With the way arbitration rulings are set up, counting stats go a long way towards determing the amount of pay players receive.

If DePo totally revamped the team concept into a "This club is all about winning, not about individual stats", it may lead to trouble landing top notch free agents. Still, I'd love to see a team implement that approach.

We need 'firemen' out there, not 'closers'...

2005-09-14 23:38:42
694.   Steve
Arizona finally ended up winning by the way
2005-09-14 23:38:59
695.   Jim Hitchcock
689 - Wally! Wally! Wally! Wally!
2005-09-14 23:39:43
696.   Bob Timmermann

Steve, the Jim Tracy landscape has shifted so much that you're a moderate now. Sort of like Mikhail Gorbachev.

2005-09-14 23:45:08
697.   das411
694 -Great game, I managed to avoid 12 innings' worth of homework!

Also, the Brewers are still closer to a playoff spot than LA/SF/AZ

2005-09-14 23:47:33
698.   Bob Timmermann
That's probably due to the factor that the Brewers have a much better record than the rest of the NL West.
2005-09-14 23:51:56
699.   Jim Hitchcock
Thanks for the cheering note, das411 :)
2005-09-14 23:52:34
700.   Icaros
Well, I'm off to go have a conversation with my nearby brick wall.

You're lucky to have brick. I only get to talk to drywall up here.

Well, at least college is opening your mind to different ideas and how complex the world is....

That doesn't happen until grad school these days. They make you pay extra money for the good stuff.

Show/Hide Comments 701-750
2005-09-14 23:53:34
701.   Steve
Drywall? That must be boring.

(rim shot)

2005-09-14 23:56:29
702.   Icaros
Go ahead and joke, Steve, but there's a broken levee in Louisiana with you and Wally George's names spray painted all over it :-)
2005-09-14 23:57:11
703.   Steve
If Tonight's Game Went In Front Of The Senate Judiciary Committee:


I respect your position not to say anything about cases that might come before you in the future. So, hypothetically speaking, let's say D.J. Houlton is pitching, he has thrown 107 pitches, the bases are loaded, there are two outs, and the score is 5-0 Dodgers. Now, and mind you we are just speaking in hypothetical terms here, what would you do if that situation?

2005-09-14 23:59:42
704.   Bob Timmermann
I would think Steve would appreciate Jim Caple's John Roberts piece:

2005-09-15 00:02:47
705.   Icaros
703 I would ask Jaime McCourt what I should do.
2005-09-15 00:02:52
706.   Steve
I should, of course, have referred to Judge Icaros.

My sincerest apologies.

Who is Walter Young?

2005-09-15 00:05:43
707.   Bob Timmermann
Walter Young got called up by Baltimore.

He is listed at 6'5" and 320

2005-09-15 00:07:24
708.   Icaros
I'm learning to dislike this guy more every day. From tomorrow's LA Times:

Former Dodger Eric Karros, now a television analyst, took issue with a note in Wednesday's Times that pointed out he did not beat out Hee-Seop Choi for the everyday first baseman position while both were with the Chicago Cubs in 2003.

He said it was because if he had been the everyday guy, a clause in his contract would have kicked in that would have paid him much more.

"So I wouldn't have played me either," Karros said. "Not that you care."

2005-09-15 00:09:52
709.   Bob Timmermann
Gosh and I still have all the RDGCs left over from the FOX era too.
2005-09-15 00:11:55
710.   Steve
If I wouldn't have played Eric Karros, and the Cubs wouldn't have played Eric Karros, and Eric Karros wouldn't have played Eric Karros, then what's the problem?
2005-09-15 00:13:05
711.   Bob Timmermann
Apparently, there's no problem.

Not that we care....

And to be honest, Eric, we really don't.

2005-09-15 00:16:06
712.   Icaros
Vanity thy name is Karros.
2005-09-15 00:18:34
713.   Steve
Well, good night all. The Best of Wally George is on a few minutes. Tonight's special guest is Jason Phillips, followed by Scott Erickson. Wally! Wally! Wally!
2005-09-15 00:19:56
714.   Icaros
Good night, General Patton.
2005-09-15 00:27:58
715.   Jim Hitchcock
Did somebody say John Roberts? For a preview on tomorrows testimony, check this out:

2005-09-15 00:45:58
716.   bokonon42
I'm sorry I missed the doings here tonight in real time. The major Tracy scrape with the Steve/Hitchcock Wally George thread mixed in was like watching the scene from DT's favorite movie where Sonny beats Carlo savagely, except on MST3K.

I wasn't allowed to watch Wally when he was actually on the air. By the time I discovered him, it was middle of the night UHF filler, broken up by phone-sex commercials. Which made it, like, art. Good times. I bet ebay has Wally paraphernalia. . .

2005-09-15 02:09:20
717.   GoBears
690 Well, at least college is opening your mind to different ideas and how complex the world is....

Hey Bob, I feel your pain. But I'm a professor. And I gotta tell you, this fellah is not at all unrepresentative. Why think, when you can just yell?

and Steve, the Jim Tracy landscape has shifted so much that you're a moderate now. Sort of like Mikhail Gorbachev.

I was thinking the same thing. Along with "with friends like this..." I mean I agree with the substance hidden in half of the invective around here, but mind-numbing repetition, ESPECIALLY when it's "preaching" to the choir, is, well, it's just plain boring. Gives me half a mind to defend JT just because some of the "obvious truths" being asserted here are so silly. And badly misspelled, at that.

Jon deserves better than this. He's created this forum for discussion, and provides frequent interesting topics for discussion, and too often it devolves into Jerry Springer. I'm wondering if the game-chat thread idea needs a rest, even before the Dodgers failed season gives it 6 months off. I stopped reading DURING games a while ago (I go back and peruse afterwards) just because I'm tired of being yelled at to get angry about something I'm quite capable of judging for myself (and with better spelling). It's like being stuck in a restaurant with bad service, and having your dining companion complain ad nauseum to you about how bad the "surviss" [sic] is. Uh yeah. I know. I'm here too. Enough already. Stop spitting.

2005-09-15 02:37:50
718.   Paul B
At the risk of fanning the flames (ah, heck, I'm sure everyone else is asleep by now...)

I do think it's pretty undeniable that the fact that Houlton was one out away from qualifying for a win factored into Tracy's decision, one way or another. Oldbear has a point, I think: if you described that exact scenario (Houlton pitching, 107 pitches throw, ducks on the pond) but left off the inning, I think almost everyone would have said to hook him. Or just think of the various outcomes: you know Atkins is Houlton's last hitter, regardless. Either Houlton gets Atkins out or he doesn't. If he does, DJ hits the showers in line for the win. If he doesn't, it means between 1 and 4 Rockies have scored, and what was a comfortable lead in a must-win game is no more. It just doens't seem tenable that Tracy thought, after 107 pitches, there was nobody in the pen who stood a better chance of getting an out (although, with our relief corps, it's not quite as insane a notion as it might normally be.) But he wanted to go with the guy what brung him. Oops.

(Incidentally, I've been wondering for a while if a similar thing might be said about Houlton: would Tracy/Depodesta allow a pitcher to throw 115 innings at a 5.40 ERA clip in a year where a postseason berth was within reach except for that fact that he was a Rule 5 pick? Of course, that begs the question of who might've replace DJ, but still. Houlton may be a fine pitcher, over the next few years, but he's 26, and I'm pretty confident that he's not the second coming of Johan Santana.)

I think Tracy's decision was the wrong one, insofar as it didn't place the team in the best position to win the game. But I also understand why he did it, and I don't think he's insane for making that call. The manager has to make the determination and be in charge, but he's also got to, you know, manage the players. And it just seems clear that this was a case where Tracy was thinking that Houlton had struggled, righted the ship, and was nearly in the clear, so he should have a chance to finish the job (where the job is to at least get through five innings.) (No, there's no Being John Tracy thing going on here, so I don't KNOW for sure.)

Don't see why this was so controversial...maybe it's just the frustration setting in.

Anyway, I'm going to go think about going to sleep. Or maybe I'll check to see if Wally's made his way over to Alabama...a huge untapped market...

2005-09-15 02:49:34
719.   Paul B
Ah, GoBears, we meet again...:)

I agree with what you say...well put. (Confession: during the early game chat threads I had more than my fill of "Alex Cora would have gotten that" jokes. I think I've since surrendered to the medium and take it for what it is: a diverse group of folks, many of them wisenheimers, who are passionate about the Dodgers and who filter and analyze their positions with varying degrees of sophistication and thoughtfulness. Hey, that's the internet for yeh. Sometimes you have to just pick and choose a bit, but I do enjoy following along with the crew (or going back and reliving the game post mortem, as I did tonight.) Good with the bad, yadda, yadda, yadda. Go Cardinal.

2005-09-15 07:46:14
720.   Bob Timmermann
Perhaps we'll all go the way of $2 Tuesdays.
2005-09-15 07:57:41
721.   Kayaker7
718 To think that this arbitrary notion of going five innings to qualify for a win influenced a managerial unfathomable to me. If the rules were different, and it only took four innings or took six whole innings, there is no doubt Houlton would have been pulled. One can argue that the manager may gain loyalty from a player by showing concern for his personal stat, but the overall message that you're sacrificing team achievement is the wrong message to send.
2005-09-15 08:07:33
722.   Jeromy
I haven't read the entire thread, but I think some are missing the point that the bullpen had been extremely overused with Jackson's wildness the night before. Sure Tracy might have wanted Houlton to get a win (who doesn't?), but he may also have been managing the number of outs he needed from his bullpen. Turns out the bullpen blew up anyway--perhaps because Houlton could get deeper into the game.

I think my frustration comes directly from the fact that the Dodgers season is falling apart because of their inability to beat the Rockies. The last three series losses have all come against Colorado, with the Dodgers going 2-7 against a bottom-dwelling team. Win more than you lose against this team and we are all talking about our playoff chances today.

2005-09-15 08:17:27
723.   Marty
Hey, that's MR. Wisenheimer to you...
2005-09-15 08:19:41
724.   Kayaker7
In spite of the 8-7 scoreline, I think the Dodgers are lucky to not have lost by a bigger margin. I mean, how many times have you seen the hit and run play work TWICE in one game and result in runs both times. If last night had held to form, the hit and run would have failed, perhaps only once, and the margin of the loss would have been bigger.
2005-09-15 08:25:21
725.   Paul B
722 I agree that Tracy may have wanted to save the bullpen. Whether or not that was his thought, it seems like a faulty rationale because: (a) it looks like you are shaving, at most, one batter off the bullpen's workload (assuming Houlton's coming out no matter what after Atkins) and (b) as others have mentioned, it seems like a team in the Dodgers's position needs to manage each game as though it's an elimination game: surely there was one arm on the expanded roster that could answer the bell (as indeed Osorio was forced to do anyway).

But yeah, just flip that win-loss record against the Rockies and things are totally different. Oh, if wishes were horses...

2005-09-15 08:41:22
726.   Steve
I don't know about the level of discourse here, but I know that this:

just showed up in the pages of a major metropolitan newspaper this morning. I mean, think of it. This poor, dumb, hack sportswriter, who doesn't even know how to multiply two digit integers together, has printed a glorious monument to his own irrelevance! Dazzy Vance?

2005-09-15 08:57:57
727.   Paul B
726 Thanks, Steve. That baby's a goldmine! One of my favorite lines: "Without question, certain pitchers need to be protected, but in the decade of the '90s, there were remarkable pitch counts by David Cone (166) . . . . Combined long-term damage: None." Seems to be at least a premature conclusion to draw about a guy who had a life-threatening aneurysm in his pitching arm, don't you think?
2005-09-15 09:00:53
728.   Vishal
oh, the irony. too much.
2005-09-15 09:05:37
729.   Bob Timmermann
Bruce Jenkins = Northern California version of Bill Plaschke

That's a pretty typical column from him.

2005-09-15 09:08:43
730.   Kayaker7
729 I'm beginning to think these guys don't even believe what they are writing, and their editors don't care that their writing is crap. They just want to stir up controversy and sell papers. Just ignore them, I'd say.
2005-09-15 09:11:20
731.   Yakface
I've developed a great hatred for the rockies and I think that hatred has leaked into my feelings for colorado in general, I despise colorado. Useless state really.
2005-09-15 09:12:15
732.   regfairfield
It's a little sad that the couple of decent points he made was lost in the sea of crap.
2005-09-15 09:15:14
733.   Bob Timmermann
He doesn't really have a good point until the last two paragraphs. The rest is hyperbole and vitriol.
2005-09-15 09:17:45
734.   regfairfield
I thought this was a decent paragraph:

Wow, 2001? That's like yesterday. Check back if something happens for the first time in 48 years. And if you're accessing lifetime pitcher-vs.-batter matchups, forget "2-for-6." Means nothing. "4-for-18" could mask three straight dead-pull liners to the third baseman. Focus on something meaningful, like 15-for-21 or 1-for-28.

2005-09-15 09:20:04
735.   Bob Timmermann
In other news, J.T. Snow and Moises Alou are both expected to miss the weekend series or be a pinch hitter at best. Jason Schmidt is still questionable to make his start Saturday.

Again I say, life in the NL West.

2005-09-15 09:20:46
736.   Marty
734 Yep, that's the only thing he gets right in the column. SF writers are just as bad as anyone. But the clear winner in my book is Mike Celizic over at MSNBC. He'll contradict himself completely in the span of one column. I've been privately howling at his stuff for a few years. I'm happy to see that the guys over at Fire Joe Morgan agree.
2005-09-15 09:22:29
737.   Bob Timmermann
But Marty,
What about the hat? You gotta respect that hat!
2005-09-15 09:25:43
738.   Yakface
So, what has been decided regarding the fate of DJ Houlton?
2005-09-15 09:30:23
739.   Vishal
I've developed a great hatred for the rockies and I think that hatred has leaked into my feelings for colorado in general, I despise colorado. Useless state really.

that's not true. colorado utterly gorgeous.

2005-09-15 09:30:59
740.   Vishal
er, it IS utterly gorgeous. i drove through last month and have the pictures to prove it!
2005-09-15 09:33:04
741.   Yakface
740-Theres a whole world of natural beauty, and in that world colorado has no place.
2005-09-15 09:47:26
742.   oldbear
721. You said it better than I could.

Plus, its not the first time Tracy left a starter in well over a 100 pitches, and the started gave up a Grand Slam. It happened in May with Weaver, and I was more upset about that one, than this one. I think the Weaver GS game was another in which Tracy thought: "I'm gonna give my starter the chance to Win the game, instead of handing it over to the bullpen"

It sends a message that personal achievement is more important than team goals. I think thats the wrong message to send. Maybe its also one of the reasons Tracy is regarded as a 'player's manager'. But I think there needs to be a changing of the mindset into a more team results oriented approach.

2005-09-15 09:51:09
743.   Jon Weisman
717 GoBears, thank you for that post. You really capture what's been bothering me here, and I really appreciate it.

My goals for Dodger Thoughts are high. And as you know, I take the welfare of the site rather personally.

I feel that when people make comments here, it's not enough to merely be right. You also have to be civil. And that's more than just not using profanity.

The Dodger Thoughts comment area is not a schoolyard. It's not a bar at 1 a.m. It's not a padded cell where the idea is for you to scream your head off. If you've gotten that impression, I'm sorry, but it's the wrong one.

I set this place up, very clearly I thought, as a place for thoughtful discussion. Not a place where the word "hate" appears in every other sentence. Not as a place where you call the Dodger manager, whatever his flaws, a cancer, again and again. Not where you call Odalis Perez a peanut again and again. That's sophomoric. That's beneath this site. And if you think I'm being a snob that way, well, you've got me pegged.

It's becoming clear that there are two different levels of conversation going on here and they're not coexisting well. People who came here for thoughtful, articulate conversation are leaving disappointed. And if I have to choose, you can be damn sure I'm going to side with the thoughtful, articulate conversation - not with the third-grade insults. Because it's getting to the point where I don't even want to read the comments anymore.

The Rockies beat the Dodgers, and now someone hates the state of Colorado. I don't care if you're serious or joking. That's a worthless comment and it doesn't belong here. It has no redeeming value. And it taints everything else you have to say.

Maybe the best way to put this is to treat it as a classroom discussion. People should be free to say what's on their minds - but there's a certain level of discourse that you live up to. And I also think anyone who's been in a discussion knows what a turnoff it is to have the same point hammered at you over and over again. I want everyone to feel welcome, but I also want everyone to be aware of where obnoxiousness begins.

It's not enough to be right. Not here. I've tried to be tolerant and I've been ignored. The whiny talk, the childish talk has got to stop. There are plenty of other message boards for it. Dodger Thoughts is my refuge and I want it to stay that way.

I feel privileged to have you all here - in fact I'm overwhelmed, as I've said many times, that so many people have found it comfortable to be here. But this place is not designed to be a free-for-all. Please respect what this site aims to be.

2005-09-15 09:52:56
744.   Icaros
Greely, Colorado is the slaughterhouse capital of the nation. Without Colorado there'd be no ground beef!
2005-09-15 09:55:35
745.   oldbear
Hypothetical extreme: Your team is winning 1-0 going into the 9th inning. Your pitcher is throwing a no-hitter. The pitcher walks the bases loaded with 2 outs in the 9th. He's at the 130 pitch mark. You have Eric Gagne in the bullpen warmed up. Do you go to Gagne? Or do you leave the pitcher in?

Team goals or individual achievement?

What do you do if your the manager?

2005-09-15 09:57:40
746.   Bob Timmermann
In the case of 745, almost no manager in baseball today would leave the starting pitcher in.
2005-09-15 10:00:13
747.   Jon Weisman
745 - Oldbear, this is another example of kind of the noise pollution I'm talking about. You have been making this point for 12 hours now. And I think most everyone agrees with you. I don't even know if anyone's still arguing with you. I like you, but please, let it go.

Tracy should have taken Houlton out before pitching to Atkins. Okay? Resolved.

2005-09-15 10:08:59
748.   Bob Timmermann
In other stuff ...
In Update 2, Baseball Prospectus states that the Dodgers were the 16th team since 1972 to have all three outfielders make an error in the same inning. That is in conflict with what Dave Smith of Retrosheet found which was that NO TEAM had all three outfielders make at least one error in the same inning since 1960. In fact, it's pretty rare when a team has three errors from all outfielders in one game ever. Or three errors from any combination of outfielders.

So I'm wondering where Baseball Prospectus got their figure from.

2005-09-15 10:10:28
749.   dzzrtRatt
This season is starting to wear everybody out.

Look, it's over. Wins and losses don't matter that much now. It would take an incredible streak of bad playing for San Diego to fall into a position where anyone could catch them. This weekend's LA/SF series will only feature a few of the star players either team thought it would display in 2005.

Let's just enjoy the games for what they are--free baseball on TV (if you leave out here and pay for cable), a Kent v. Bonds showdown, a lot of intriguing young players on both teams who we will be following for years to come, pitching for pride by our three top guys, the Bay, the moon, the sun...we're incredibly lucky people.

Getting angry is part of being a baseball fan, but with so little at stake right now, why? This is a leisure activity. If you're watching the game, at least you're not working.

2005-09-15 10:12:25
750.   Steve
The fact that Washington is going to the West Coast in September is probably many things, but it is not "ironic."
Show/Hide Comments 751-800
2005-09-15 10:13:03
751.   Bob Timmermann
I fully expected the 2005 season to come down to the wire and hoping to talk smack with Giants fans about who is better: Dan Ortmeier or Jason Grabowski? Franquelis Osoria or Jeremy Accardo? Mike Rose or Yamid Haad?
2005-09-15 10:14:26
752.   Jon Weisman
748 - I might have thought Elias, but that doesn't seem likely, does it? Write Woolner and ask him?
2005-09-15 10:16:35
753.   Steve
Retrosheet found which was that NO TEAM had all three outfielders make at least one error in the same inning since 1960.

I should have kept my ticket stubs and sold them on Ebay.

For some bizarre reason that would only be apparent to the Praetorian Guard that is today's Major League Managerial Corps(TM), Miguel Cairo is playing rightfield today.

2005-09-15 10:19:44
754.   Paul B
748 Thanks, Bob. That's been bugging me, and I meant to ask about it. It seemed like an awfully improbable sequence of events to happen with such, relative, frequency.
2005-09-15 10:21:53
755.   Sam DC
Bob, I owe you an apology.

Last night I shamefully missed that you, of course, had flagged Brandon Webb's balk-run for the group. 517, 558

Sorry I doubted you.

Lot of work getting through this thread, but I gather people seem to think that DJ Houlton was left in too long. (In fact, reading through, I do not think that a single comment actually disagrees with that point.) Hmmm.

2005-09-15 10:28:42
756.   Steve
The only excitement in this game is whether I will get to see Gigantor or not.
2005-09-15 10:36:25
757.   Sam DC
756 talk to me after the lesser of 145 pitches or 8 Mets runs occurs.
2005-09-15 10:36:34
758.   Steve
It turns out that Carlos Beltran is not a New York leader, and only a complementary piece of a roster. Who knew?
2005-09-15 10:40:33
759.   Kayaker7
743 Jon, points well taken. I appreciate that you have provided this sanctuary from the usual tripe that goes for intelligent baseball discussion. I apologize if I have contributed to non-productive discussions. I hope to be a positive contributor to future discussions. It is amazing how addicted I am to this spare, bare-bones site. As they say, "Content is King."
2005-09-15 10:41:05
760.   Steve
I don't want to alarm anybody. I want everybody to take this information calmly. Please do not run out of your buildings and drive home insanely.

Cristian Guzman just hit a home run.

2005-09-15 10:43:07
761.   Steve
I just posted this at FJT, but will do so here. When I do so, please take note of the point. This is Bob Nightengale in USA Today.

"Tracy has done a fine job in Los Angeles, but it doesn't seem to be enough. GM Paul DePodesta is comfortable with Tracy, but ownership wants him gone."

Now, the point:

That is the exact opposite of what Bill Plaschke just reported.

Which is interesting.

2005-09-15 10:47:54
762.   Bob Timmermann

But I need to go home to see if my cat is sleeping with a dog.

2005-09-15 10:51:36
763.   Jon Weisman
761 - Is it the opposite of what Plaschke reported or what Plaschke ordered?
2005-09-15 10:52:50
764.   Marty
Nightengale used to be the Dodgers beat writer for Times and I always thought he was pretty good.
2005-09-15 10:56:37
765.   Bob Timmermann
Nightengale and the Times parted in a less-than-amicable fashion. And Nightengale and the Dodgers have had a troublesome relationship too.

But overall, he writes about as well as you can in the strictures that USA Today gives you. He's better than Hal Bodley, aka Bud Selig's press agent.

2005-09-15 10:57:04
766.   Sam DC
With the home run out of the way, you'd have to say that Guzman has a reasonble shot at they cycle, wouldn't you?

You know, in the wrap notes from the Dodgers-Nationals game that Jon cited as a season low point, it reports that Guzman was on a 10 game hitting streak at that time. It is safe to say that the Washington DC baseball hive mind does not remember that.

2005-09-15 11:00:11
767.   regfairfield
763 - From Plaschke's article:

Frank and Jamie McCourt like him.

Maybe they're not thrilled with everything he does on a baseball field — what manager is not second-guessed? — but they like everything he has done for the organization.

The owners like how he calmly handled the stink bomb that DePodesta rolled into the first-place Dodger clubhouse in August of last season, Tracy calmly leading the shattered Dodgers to a title without ever once being seen holding his nose.

They like how he has remained a portrait of class and consistency this season when injuries and awful personnel moves have depleted his team again.

2005-09-15 11:05:06
768.   Adam M
Class and consistency? How does starting Jason Phillips at 1B evince either one?

Note that the "stink bomb" in question was the same one Plachke was berating DePo for not keeping together after last season?

Put it this way: if Florida offered to reverse The Trade, giving back Mota, Lo Duca and Encarnacion for Choi and Penny, would it have improved the Dodgers? Don't kid yourself.

2005-09-15 11:06:19
769.   Steve
Now, with that said, and I know this will just shock people out of their shoes, there is a very, very slight possibility that Frank McCourt or his minions would tell two different reporters...two different things. I know, I know, call me crazy.
2005-09-15 11:07:41
770.   Vishal
hey, interesting that someone from the MSM is tossing about orel hershiser as a candidate. i wonder how much we have to do with the spreading of that idea/rumor?
2005-09-15 11:08:17
771.   Icaros
769 You're an instigator, Steve, like Woody Woodpecker.
2005-09-15 11:11:35
772.   Sam DC
Guzman up again, going for the triple . . .
2005-09-15 11:13:41
773.   Jon Weisman
765 - Except for Nightengale's membership in the Jim Bowden fanclub.
2005-09-15 11:13:48
774.   Steve
Please ensure that you have a lot of batteries, possibly some MREs, and water supply for several days.
2005-09-15 11:14:01
775.   Bob Timmermann
So some people think the front office hates DePodesta and wants to fire him.

Others think the front office wants to fire Tracy and DePodesta likes Tracy.

Some think that DePodesta is getting fed up with Tracy and wants to cashier the manager.

These conflicting reports lead me to believe that no one is getting fired.

And now Cristian Guzman is halfway to the cycle.

2005-09-15 11:19:17
776.   Steve
I realized just before I went to sleep last night that no Wally George discussion was ever quite complete without a discussion of the phrase "pablum puker"
2005-09-15 11:19:25
777.   Icaros
I'm probably going to San Francisco today. Will the Guzman Butterfly Effect reach me out there?
2005-09-15 11:21:26
778.   Icaros
I think we could have a 200-post discussion about Wally George's hair alone. What, did he use actual cornsilk as a toupee?
2005-09-15 11:24:59
779.   Steve
I am planning on just staying home today. Just in case.

By the way, in case Bokonon is interested:

2005-09-15 11:25:22
780.   Marty
I'm so glad Wally George is back in the discussion. I missed out last night.

Don't forget that George was the audience warmer-upper for Mayor Sam on the Sam Yorty show before he hit the "big-time"

2005-09-15 11:26:55
781.   Jon Weisman
The Mets have won five more games than the Dodgers, with Pedro, with Beltran - not to mention with David Wright. What's their excuse?
2005-09-15 11:27:03
782.   Icaros
Wally George looked like that evil guy in those lousy Poltergiest sequels.
2005-09-15 11:28:14
783.   Icaros
781 They don't have enough Jasons.
2005-09-15 11:29:15
784.   Marty
781 Fire Willie Randolph 8^)
2005-09-15 11:31:13
785.   Steve
Omar Minaya became much more popular after Billy Beane wrote that book about him.
2005-09-15 11:32:28
786.   Bob Timmermann

You could ask Mets fans, but they tend to frame all of their responses in the form of one long profanity.

But Carlos Beltran has been Carlos Beltran and not CARLOS BELTRAN KING OF THE UNIVERSE.

And the Mets gave Ishii a bunch of starts. And they don't have a first baseman who can hit at all. And they aren't all that great at second base. And the shortstop rarely walks. The third baseman is great.

Mike Piazza got old. Tom Glavine got old.

2005-09-15 11:34:07
787.   Steve
They showed the Mets' first base stats during the game. They are hitting .240, with 15 HR and 49 RBI.
2005-09-15 11:39:28
788.   Jon Weisman
781 - Yeah, what took them so long to get Seo up there? Was he hurt?

Hmmm ... I see he had a 4.90 ERA last year. I suppose it wasn't obvious he'd chop that down to 1.98.

2005-09-15 11:39:57
789.   Paul B
Player PAs VORP
GRIFFEY 555 62.6

BELTRAN 577 26.3
BRADLEY 316 23.5
WINN 175 19.2

Beltran is killing the Mets and, far worse, my fantasy team. (A more accurate description would be Beltran is not doing squat to make two bad teams into even decent ones.)

2005-09-15 11:40:36
790.   Adam M
4 words:

"Leading off...Jose Reyes."

2005-09-15 11:44:42
791.   Bob Timmermann
Last night, amidst all the excitement of the NL West pennant chase, we probably missed out that the White Sox blew a 2-run lead in the 9th against the Royals and lost 10-9 behind "old friend" Dustin Hermanson.

It was the first time the Royals had won a game trailing after 8 in 102 games. And the White Sox lead over Cleveland is now just 5 games.

The Padres have the second biggest divisional lead in baseball now.

And the Cardinals magic number is still 2.

2005-09-15 11:48:22
792.   Bob Timmermann
OK, so Livan Hernandez just gave up a grand slam with 2 outs in the 5th.....

I'm out of here ....

2005-09-15 11:50:12
793.   Marty
You can't leave Bob. Guzman's on deck!
2005-09-15 11:51:36
794.   Neil
Jon- As an everyday lurker and never commenter, I'd like to say thanks for the comment you made above. Sometimes the comments at this site are truly a pleasure to read, and one of the better parts of my day. Less so recently, and hopefully moreso in the future. I will of course continue to make my daily contributions to thoughtfulness and civility by saying absolutely nothing.

And I never understood the Beltran signing or the expectations attached to it.

2005-09-15 11:53:51
795.   Paul B
790(!) Interestingly enough, Reyes is currently edging Beltran in the all-important VORP race: 26.4 vs. 26.3.

Steve, I don't know what today's breakthrough perfomance is going to do to his numbers, but Christian Guzman "leads" the league with a jaw dropping -17.6 VORP. A big Joey Lawrence, "whoaaa" to that.

2005-09-15 11:55:49
796.   dzzrtRatt
775 Jes' doin' my job,


Sitrick & Co.

ENC: Invoice attached

2005-09-15 11:57:16
797.   Icaros
I started as a lurker around here for about two or three months before I actually "spoke." I wonder sometimes how many readers-only there are.

I don't think anyone can argue that Steve made the grandest entrance onto the DT landscape. He was like a new bad guy in pro-wrestling who the fans eventually started cheering for because of his infectious charisma.

2005-09-15 11:58:18
798.   Jim Hitchcock
I will of course continue to make my daily contributions to thoughtfulness and civility by saying absolutely nothing.

Yes, but how will we know you're contributing your fair share :)

2005-09-15 12:00:30
799.   Bob Timmermann

Well, Steve is infectious I'll grant you that.

I won't stretch the metaphor any further. :-)

2005-09-15 12:03:43
800.   Icaros
When I get really frustrated with the Dodgers, I tell my friends and family that I've got a case of The Steves.
Show/Hide Comments 801-850
2005-09-15 12:05:15
801.   das411
787 And Delgado, the one free agent Omar Minaya managed to talk AWAY from the Mets, has put up an oddly quiet .301-30-105

Watching the Brew Crew last night, might the Mets be smart enough to go after Overbay this winter? Or would they use the payroll space that Piazza clears to pick up a larger contract, i. e. Helton or Thome?

2005-09-15 12:08:40
802.   Jim Hitchcock
I don't think anyone can argue that Steve made the grandest entrance onto the DT landscape.

That's the second time I've heard that recently. Maybe I'll go dig in the `early Steve period' archives...

2005-09-15 12:10:18
803.   Neil
798 - During those lonely times in the middle of the night when you shoot bolt upright thinking about the Dodgers and think to yourself, "I wonder if there are any new and interesting comments over at DT?" Then you go and look and realize that there aren't, because it's 3am. Know that I'm looking at the same time. That there is brotherhood in the struggle. That despite the silence; I am out there somewhere, with you in spirit. Or something...
2005-09-15 12:10:51
804.   Icaros
802 I think some of those albums are out of print.
2005-09-15 12:22:53
805.   Bob Timmermann
I think Steve's entrance into DT is best described if you can have a voice like John Facenda's narrating it with booming music in the backroom.

"Sweeping like a powerful storm from the mountains of Utah, Steve set out to claim a spot in Dodger Thoughts that was his own. It was a time of challenge. It was a time for boldness. It was a time to Fire Jim Tracy."

2005-09-15 12:23:04
806.   Jim Hitchcock
803 - I think we're starting to draw Neil out of his shell :)
2005-09-15 12:23:56
807.   Terry A
I've never been a fan of Bob Nightengale, but it may have a lot to do with his USA Today photo, in which he looks like Jason Alexander might after surviving three days in the wilderness.

He also has a real talent for being wrong nearly all the time. Quite remarkable, really.

2005-09-15 12:26:07
808.   Steve
Steve: The Early Years makes the last two weeks around here look like It's A Small World.
2005-09-15 12:39:13
809.   Sam DC
Piazza is up with the bases loaded, 2 outs, bottom 7, in NY. Mets lead the game by 1. Nationals have brought in the Mighty Travis Hughes (?) to face him. Nothing like a second year guy coming in cold to face a Hall of Famer with bases loaded at the end of a critical game.
2005-09-15 12:40:12
810.   Sam DC
Hughes got em. Now Miguel Cairo is playing first base.
2005-09-15 12:45:32
811.   nick
All right, I lurk here too (I post on the Yankees site--I know you won't call me dirty names or make remarks about A-Rod's style of masculinity, right?) Just wanted to say: you guys are a great community, it seems....oh, and the Mets! They've scored 645, allowed only 580--to be under .500 with those totals makes them the unluckiest, or "unclutchest" team of the year--that's my call.....and sure enough! they're being outhit .283 to .253 in "close and late" situations (statistic researched to irritate a Met fan I know)
PS--given that every team has a large group of fans who think the manager is a moron, and that in-game strategy is incredibly susceptible to second-guessing, this kinda thing will always happen. That said, I'd be remiss if I failed to observe that Joe Torre's in-game strategy is terrible. (There's an inherent conflict btw ingame strategy and being a "player's manager".)
PPS--Tracy shoulda yanked Houlton....
2005-09-15 12:59:35
812.   Sam DC
So I see Gillette has a new razor with 5 blades. The article in the LA Times is about the funniest thing I've read not on Dodger Thoughts in weeks. "Gillette Co. fired the latest shot in the blade wars Wednesday, introducing a new razor for men that features five blades, one more than competitor Schick's model. . . . ."It's not just about the number of blades," [Gillete Exec] Hoffman said. . . . [Industry Analyst added]: "They didn't want to just be another four-bladed razor."

Hmmm . . . I wonder how many blades the new Schick razor will have. I wonder how long before your razor is bigger than your head.,0,7442329.story?coll=la-home-business

2005-09-15 13:01:04
813.   Steve
I wonder how long before your razor is bigger than your head.

Insert Barry Bonds joke



2005-09-15 13:02:04
814.   Kayaker7
Question about mound height. In what tangible way does it affect the pitch? Does the higher angle of arrival at the plate make it more difficult to hit? Or, does it allow the pitcher to throw harder, by gaining more forward momentum by "falling" downhill?
2005-09-15 13:04:02
815.   Adam M
Which raises a good question: does Bonds prefer shaving cream, or shaving clear?
2005-09-15 13:04:47
816.   dzzrtRatt
If Joe Torre's in-game strategy is 'terrible,' then maybe we're in some Einsteinian baseball universe where all quality is purely relative, and no baseball manager, perhaps no baseball manager ever, has achieved objective quality. Perhaps objective quality doesn't even exist. Because if Torre--with four world championships--is 'terrible,' then what adjective would be appropriate to use for Jim Tracy?
2005-09-15 13:08:39
817.   Marty
The Onion predicted the 5-blader last year. One of their funniest articles:

2005-09-15 13:08:48
818.   Sam DC
So in NY, Nats rookie Ryan Zimmerman pinch hits for backup catcher Gary Bennet (who himself has been hitting OK) and ends up on second (single plus error) to open up the ninth. Then Cristian Guzman is allowed to bat?? Olney that moves the runner over.

1. Why would you hit for Bennett but not Guzman? (Guzman was 2-3 today, I guess, but still.)

2. After a year of bunting with your number 2 hitter and buting the runner from second to third, no bunt here with Guzman?

Then Guillen comes in to pinch hit -- didn't play today after his tantrum last night -- and is plunked on pitch 1.

2005-09-15 13:09:19
819.   Sam DC
plunking Guillen -- setting up the double play?
2005-09-15 13:12:41
820.   Adam M
But they didn't just add another blade. These blades are spaced closer together.

And in that context, the word for Tracy is "execrable." Unless you allow FUBAR as a word. I think he was referring to Torre's in-game managing this year. In their WS years, Torre's Yankees seemed very opportunistic and well-coached. Their advance scouting also may have been responsible, because they always seemed to neutralize their opponent's main strengths.

2005-09-15 13:13:13
821.   Sam DC
818 In fairness, Bennett's actually been hitting pretty poorly.
2005-09-15 13:15:10
822.   Bob Timmermann

Oddly enough, Eric Karros's name never comes up.....

2005-09-15 13:17:24
823.   Sam DC
817 Marty, my boss is here and he'd like to talk to you.

That is too funny.

2005-09-15 13:18:48
824.   Steve
"I like a lot of home runs, a lot of walks. Patient hitters with high on-base percentages.


2005-09-15 13:20:12
825.   Jim Hitchcock
The Onion has it right. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't having the blades closer together mean it clogs faster, rendering it useless after one or two shaves?

Give me a single blade to mow my face anyday. Styptic pencils (or TP) last a lot longer that way.

2005-09-15 13:20:22
826.   Jon Weisman
For the tinyurl-impaired, what does 822 link to?
2005-09-15 13:21:58
827.   Bob Timmermann
822 is a link to a Q & A with Hee-Seop Choi on
2005-09-15 13:22:13
828.   the OZ
Steve Phillips, commenting on Carlos Beltran being on first base with one out, tie game in the 9th:

"Carlos Beltran needs to steal a base right here. That's been the one part of his game that he's struggling with this season."

2005-09-15 13:22:41
829.   Marty
826 Please excuse the wider screen

2005-09-15 13:24:17
830.   Sam DC
And the White Sox contemplate losing to the Royals yet again. Down 5-2 in the 7th.
2005-09-15 13:25:36
831.   Bob Timmermann
Now if the White Sox were to choke away the AL Central, that would be quite rich. But I don't know if I could stand to see Joe Morgan cry.
2005-09-15 13:32:02
832.   Steve
Crying? There's no crying in Smallball!
2005-09-15 13:36:17
833.   Icaros
That interview seals it. Choi is the most likeable baseball player ever.

My favorite is when he is asked about his favorite ice cream:

"I like ice cream. American better than Korean [smiles]. (Flavor?) I don't know the names. All of them I like. Everything."

2005-09-15 13:39:11
834.   the OZ
I was disappointed to read that Choi's favorite food is NOT eel, as was previously reported.

Or perhaps he is fickle and has changed his tastes since SB's efforts to provide a " Fact of Choi"

2005-09-15 13:39:58
835.   Kayaker7
833 Believe it or not, that is a knock, in some people's books. Too nice, apparently. To me, as long as his bat is not nice to the baseball, I like nice ball players.
2005-09-15 13:40:50
836.   Bob Timmermann
When you likely don't know the name of the ice cream flavors, it's a lot easier to pick them out.

Choi always seems like he's in a good mood and that's good because a lot of players would get pretty frustrated the way they've been used during their career like Choi has.

2005-09-15 13:40:54
837.   Telemachos
I take it after last night's game, "curb the road rage" applies to today as well? :)
2005-09-15 13:41:09
838.   Kayaker7
834 Eel, is supposedly good for, ahem, male stamina. So, maybe it depends what he is planning for the evening? Whether it be karaoke, or...
2005-09-15 13:41:16
839.   Dark Horse
Has anyone else here read the more detailed Milton Bradley stuff linked above? It evokes greater sympathy than the term 'domestic abuse' usually (well, ever) does.

As a frequent lurker, and infrequent poster, I so appreciate Jon's efforts to keep this place civil. Almost nothing in contemporary life is, so it's a both a welcome alternative and something that requires some self-regulation. Since fandom almost by definition presses the buttons.

That said, I dunno. This season is perhaps the most disappointing I've ever witnessed, and I've been a fan for 30 years. It's the first time, ever, I've felt this pessimistic for the future. Yes, we've got blue-chippers up the wazoo, but when 2007 rolls around I find it hard to believe Guzman and LaRoche are gonna drive in 120 runs each (I so remember when Offerman was the future, too) and C-bills and Miller are gonna be the number one and two starters we so sorely lack. One or two of those things could happen, but I dunno if I'd bank on much more. And after watching Choi flail all season long at unhittable pitches under his hands, I don't see much more there than a Billy Ashley who walks. Add to that a good dozen-plus players I'd like to see gone--but won't--in '06 (Phillips, Carrara, Robles, Edwards, Ledee, Ross, Rose, Nakamura, Dessens, Werth, Choi, Erickson, O Perez, Braz if he's not salvagable. That's more than half a roster, yet we're gonna end up trying to replace Bradley and Weaver, who's no great shakes but who I'd rather keep than all of the above,) and...I wonder whether there's a manager in the whole history of baseball who could win with those players? With one or two of them, at the dog-end of the roster, maybe, but all of em? (And I'm forgetting people, who are eminently forgetable, like Myrow, or Houlton, who I might keep despite everything...Derek Thompson, or--Repko. I knew I was missing somebody who's had a few hundred at bats too many this year.) I don't like JT's decision making process entirely either, but firing him alone won't make us a better team. Not nearly.

Even to enumerate these griefs is to risk sounding like I'm ranting, but...I've been sitting on this despair for months. Why am I convinced McCourt's gonna throw all his energy, such as it is, at fixing the wrong "problem" (like Milton) while fully more than half of the afforementioned will be back next year. Why do I believe our prospects will struggle like E-Jax has or Broxton did (albeit still impressively, in ways, with a very small sampling) until and unless we let them which point they'll light it up for somebody else? I'm despairing here, and praying for some reasoned individual to restore me to hope. Again.

2005-09-15 13:42:03
840.   Icaros
835 So a player has to be nicer than Milton Bradley but not as nice as Hee-Seop Choi, huh?
2005-09-15 13:43:08
841.   Bob Timmermann
People said Kim Clijsters was "too nice" to win a Grand Slam tennis tournament. She couldn't understand that. She said Roger Federer is a very nice guy.

The only nice guy in baseball who seemingly is allowed to be nice without facing retribution from his manager is David Eckstein.

2005-09-15 13:46:07
842.   Adam M
839 - There's about 23 million rays of hope gonna come pouring into the Dodger coffers next year.

836 - The only time I ever saw Choi in a bad mood was last year after Florida game that broke Gagne's save streak. Choi came down the tunnel about 25 minutes before any other Dodger, no autographs, looking grumpy as hell. In hindsight, his bad mood might have had something to do with Tracy allowing Ross to hit in a critical late situation.

2005-09-15 13:46:49
843.   Icaros
Hasn't Sean Casey made a career for himself as Nicest First Baseman in Baseball?
2005-09-15 13:47:59
844.   Telemachos
It's very weird... I've never taken to a ballplayer as fast as Hee Seop. How can you not root for the guy? The more I read, the more bizarre I find Tracy's decision not to play him regularly.
2005-09-15 13:48:24
845.   Marty
Wasn't Ernie Banks perpetually nice?
2005-09-15 13:48:28
846.   Sam DC
Jon -- you'll appreciate that my wife just called to point that she is at five guys having a burger with the kids and watching the extra innings of the baseball game, while I was at work.

"But I've got Dodger Thoughts!" I said. "Sure," she said.

2005-09-15 13:51:20
847.   Kayaker7
846 Not meant to be crass or anything. Is "Five Guys" a burger joint?
2005-09-15 13:51:51
848.   Telemachos
839 Just curious, Dark Horse, why do you want Ledee (and Robles) gone? They're both great bench players and spot starters... it's not their fault that they've been injured or pressed into starting positions. (Not to mention they're fairly cheap).

Speaking of players that may be back next year, lemme put my vote with Cruz Jr. Yeah, he's been on a tear, but even if he puts up career averages, he'd be another solid player for occasional starts, pinch-hitting, etc.

2005-09-15 13:52:31
849.   Sam DC
846 -- at work, and clueless. "point out," "am at work," and five guys is really Five Guys.
2005-09-15 13:53:02
850.   Sam DC
847 Yeah, a really good one.
Show/Hide Comments 851-900
2005-09-15 14:01:21
851.   Kayaker7
850 Is this in DC?
2005-09-15 14:01:30
852.   Linkmeister
Five Guys does sound good.

Oh, we're having the biggest south swell in years out here: 12-15 feet off Waikiki.

2005-09-15 14:02:20
853.   Kilgore Trout
I have noticed that almost everyone here takes it as a given that Bradley is gone next year. And that very few people are unhappy about this.

I find this surprising. My impression is that the overwhelming majority of the people here would prefer a winning team to a team of nice guys who'll never win their division.

Using this criterion, I can't understand why anyone would be willing to let Bradley go or trade him for very little in return.

Projecting his 2005 stats for a full season, he would have scored 106 runs and driven in 82 runs.

How many outfielders in the Dodgers organization can do this?

2005-09-15 14:06:45
854.   Jon Weisman
1,000 comments? Not today. New game thread is open...
2005-09-15 14:13:48
855.   Sam DC
847 Just got it. I'd ask you to step outside, but Jon's got his rules . . .
2005-09-15 14:27:13
856.   Kayaker7
855 Sorry, I was blushing when I read your post, wondering what "five guys" was. Like I said, no offense meant. :)
2005-09-15 14:28:33
857.   Kayaker7
855 We have In-n-Out burgers here in Socal, so you can make your own jokes about that. ;)
2005-09-15 14:45:34
858.   jasonungar05
"Jason Schmidt. I know he's a good pitcher. I try
to hit him, [but] every time I swing and miss. And I feel good swinging
-- foul ball. I swing good -- foul ball [strike two]. Feel good --
strike out. I know how he pitches me, but it's been three years and I
still can't hit him. No hits in three years. But I will. I will try

thats just hilarious.

2005-09-15 14:47:33
859.   Midwest Blue
301 But I predicted it would be a long thread nonetheless.
2005-09-15 14:48:21
860.   Midwest Blue
Meant 302.
2005-09-15 14:52:21
861.   Adam M
853 - Bear in mind this board was pretty much the Milton Bradley admiration society for most of the year. I'd still like to see him contributing to the Dodgers, mostly because the best they'll get for him these days is a bag of jock straps. If Kobe can survive having his Boulder, CO police transcripts leaked to The Smoking Gun, MB's PR issues will blow over in no time.

As for Cruz, as heartening as his play has been, I've seen him wear out his welcome everywhere he's ever played except Seattle (who traded him his rookie season). If he's not asking too much, they might want to take a flier on him, but nobody's going to be surprised if he tanks after the All-Star break.

2005-09-15 19:17:44
862.   Vishal
there's a Five Guys about 2 hours from here... is it worth the drive?

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