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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
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September 17 Open Chat
2005-09-17 07:19
by Jon Weisman

Today's Game

* * *

Brad Penny cannot allow four runs in six innings. Not to that team, not then.

All the Dodgers needed this week was 4.50 ERA starting pitching.

Comments (223)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2005-09-17 08:14:39
1.   Bob Timmermann
Random Dodger Game Callback

September 17, 1900

In an odd game with more than its share of statistical oddities, Brooklyn managed to edge past St. Louis before a crowd of 900 at Washington Park, 7-5, as St. Louis rally in the ninth fell short. The win gave Brooklyn a 72-45 record and the team was five games ahead of second place Pittsburgh.

Brooklyn manager Ned Hanlon would start Bill Donovan, who broke in to the majors in 1898 as an outfielder and pitcher with Washington. Donovan was primarily a pitcher, but he would play every position except third base and catcher in his career. And Donovan would go on to be the star pitcher on the Detroit Tigers' pennant winning teams from 1907-09 and Donovan would also manage the Yankees for three seasons and the Phillies for part of another.

St. Louis, managed by Louie Heilbroner, started a lineup that featured four future Hall of Famers, although two of them would make it as managers. John McGraw batted leadoff for St. Louis and played third base and had a typical John McGraw day at the plate. He went 0 for 0, but he walked four times and reached on a hit batter the other time. McGraw, limited by injuries to just 99 games, batted .344 in 1900 and had an OBP of .505. McGraw had a lifetime OBP of .466, third best in major league history behind Ted Williams and Babe Ruth. McGraw served as the de facto manager of St. Louis. Heilbroner was nominally the team's manager but few of the St. Louis players refused to take orders from a 4'9" business manager who never played baseball. Heilbroner did go in to the record books as the first Jewish manager in the majors.

St. Louis also had another Hall of Famer (as a player) in left field in Jesse Burkett. Burkett batted .363 in 1900. Wilbert Robinson, who came to St. Louis with his friend McGraw, started at catcher (and would make the Hall of Fame after his long tenure as manager in Brooklyn). Finally, shortstop Bobby Wallace batted cleanup. Wallace also made the Hall of Fame. He was batting cleanup despite being in the middle of a season where he hit .268 with 4 home runs.

Brooklyn's lineup also had some stars. Willie Keeler, another future Hall of Famer, batted second. He would bat .362 in 1900. First baseman Joe Kelley, also a Hall of Famer, batted cleanup. He batted .319 in 1900. Hughie Jennings, Brooklyn's regular first baseman didn't play, but Jennings would also make the Hall of Fame. Jennings made it to Cooperstown as a player, although he would manage the Tigers to three pennants. Brooklyn had another Hall of Famer on its pitching staff in Joe McGinnity, who would go 28-8 with a 2.94 ERA, leading the league with 343 innings pitched.

St. Louis started a different Donovan, Patsy, in right field. Patsy Donovan would end up replacing Hanlon, a future Hall of Fame manager, as Brooklyn manager for the 1906 season.

Kelley drove in three runs for Brooklyn on this day and his RBI triple in the eighth to score Jimmy Sheckard gave Brooklyn a 6-3 lead. Third baseman Lave Cross singled home Kelley to make it 7-3.

In the ninth, St. Louis started to get to Donovan. Dan McGann led off with a single, but was erased on a force out by Robinson. Pinch hitter Mike Donlin flew out. Robinson stole second with Brooklyn not paying much attention to him. McGraw walked to load the bases. Burkett followed with a single to load the bases. Center fielder Emmet Heidrick then singled home Robinson and McGraw to make it 7-5. This brought up an all-Donovan matchup. And Bill got Patsy to hit a grounder to short that looked like it was going to go through, but the ball bounced up and hit Burkett running to third and the game ended on a single.

It was an all-around weird day. The most putouts recorded by any Brooklyn player that day were nine by second baseman Tom Daly. And Daly had no assists. (The Dodgers record for most putouts by a second baseman is also the NL record, 11 by Charlie Neal, shared with others.) Since Bill Donovan gave up 10 hits and walked four, there were plenty of opportunities for Brooklyn to record force-outs at second base.

The series would get weirder on Sunday. Robinson would get into an argument with umpire John Gaffney over a play at the plate in the third inning and slugged Gaffney. Gaffney swung his mask back at Robinson and ejected him too. But Robinson, backed up by his friend McGraw, refused to leave the field. So Gaffney ordered the game forfeited to Brooklyn.

And this was a good thing for Brooklyn because they would need the win. Brooklyn won the NL pennant by 4 ½ games over Pittsburgh. Brooklyn finished with a record of 82-54. It would be the last pennant for Brooklyn until the angry St. Louis catcher of 1900 would be managing in Brooklyn.

Thanks to the New York Times, Brooklyn Eagle, Baseball-reference, and Retrosheet.

2005-09-17 08:34:21
2.   jtshoe
Does anyone know the exact ruling on what qualifies someone as a rookie? Thanks.
2005-09-17 08:52:09
3.   popup
As always, thanks Bob. And regarding Penny, you just can't walk Tomko in that situation.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-09-17 08:52:24
4.   Bob Timmermann
What qualifies as a rookie?

In order to qualify for the award a player must have accumulated, prior to the season under consideration:

* Fewer than 130 at bats and 50 innings pitched in the Major Leagues or
* Fewer than 45 days on the active rosters of Major League clubs (excluding DL time or any time after rosters are expanded on September first)

2005-09-17 09:21:17
5.   werthgagne31
it looks like robles is tanking.
276 ave 338 obp 359 slg 3.97 rc27
vs perez 316 ave 378 obp 427 slg 6.32 rc27

werth and choi seem to be the same kinda guys, i'd assume if choi wasn't platooned werth would put up better ave and obp probably the same slg.
choi 254 ave 338 obp 455 slg 5.06 rc27 and played to his strenght platooned
werth 248 ave 348 obp 395 slg 4.80 rc27 not played to his strength not platooned

aybar is tearin it up, yea small sample size 32 at bats but still
406 ave 500 obp 500 slg 11.88 rc27

tracy should start aybar and perez on the left side of the infield, but he won't.

2005-09-17 09:27:27
6.   Bob Timmermann
I'm going to miss today's game as I'll be at the Rose Bowl watching the UCLA game.

And a friend from out of town is visiting tomorrow.

It's a sign of how this year is going that I don't really mind.
Despite the presence of Schmidt and Lowry pitching the next two days, I think the Dodgers are going to split. In Schmidt's last start, he just didn't look very good even before his groin injury.

2005-09-17 09:28:10
7.   Kayaker7
5 Not so sure that Choi was played to his strength by platooning. He slugged lefties .050 higher than righties, in the minors. I don't see why that split should change suddenly, now that he is in the big leagues. The overall numbers would decline, but I wouldn't think the split would reverse itself, had the platooning never happened.

If the platooning stopped right now, I'm sure Choi would hit lefties more poorly, given how few at bats he has had against them over the last three years. But, I would think he'd learn to hit them.

2005-09-17 09:57:27
8.   Steve Saxs Sweaty Jockstrap
Has anyone else noticed Penny's mound rage of late. I mean the last 3 or 4 starts he's had its been one thing or another. He seems to get ticked off so easily whether it be an ump or an opposing player. He is wildly ineffective when he pitches angry.
2005-09-17 10:05:51
9.   werthgagne31
i didn't listen to the game last night, i went to bed early, but i looked at the box score and it looks like last night's game was a gagne factor.
might have won it if gagne was healthy.
2005-09-17 10:16:29
10.   werthgagne31

One of several legitimate infield prospects in the organization, Aybar, 22, came into Friday's game hitting .393 (11 for 28).

The question now is where Aybar will fit next year. And that's an issue no one seems willing to confront right now.

"We still have some games to play in 2005," manager Jim Tracy said. "The landscape could obviously change one day to the next over the course of the winter. I really don't feel like sitting here and expounding on what I think it's going to look like."

Privately, organizational insiders say Aybar is now a viable - if not preferable - option as an everyday infielder next season, partly because of his plate discipline and ability to execute a prolonged at-bat.

With shortstop Cesar Izturis out until next season's All-Star break after undergoing successful Tommy John surgery on his right elbow Friday, and with fill-in and usual No. 2 hitter Oscar Robles also known for methodically massaging the count, the Dodgers could have a defensively gifted left side of the infield in Aybar and Robles, as well as two batters at the top of the lineup who seem perfect fits for hitting coach Tim Wallach's philosophy of making opposing pitchers work.

Dodgers general manager Paul DePodesta is expected to pursue a proven,power-hitting corner infielder this winter, either through trade or free agency. Even if that turns out to be a first baseman, power-hitting prospect Andy LaRoche probably will be given a chance to win the third-base job in spring training, which means Aybar is essentially Plan C.


what do you all think of that?

i think we need to upgrade the outfield and forget about izturis.
and if laroche wins 3b out of spring training put aybar at ss otherwise aybar and perez on the left side of the infield.
and then theres the guzman factor.
and can we sign seanz back to platoon with choi.
and are we bringing back bradley.
not to mention what to do with the pitching.

2005-09-17 10:31:34
11.   sanchez101
ive always wondered why a Aybar, who has the range for second and the arm for third, cant play short. But the fact is, im no scout, and Aybar hasnt played SS since rookie ball. I dont see the problem with platooning robles with a SS who can mash lefthanders, a Jose Hernandez-type.

Laroche would have to be failry impressive in Spring Training to win the job, as high as i am on him, he only has 200 ab's above A ball. After the trouble the Dodgers have had with Jackson, and even Beltre, why are we so willing to skip a guy past AAA?

I would start Aybar at 3B next year, Robles at SS with a platoon partner (possibley Perez), and Kent at 2B (obviously). Then, if Aybar and Laroche develop as expected, move Aybar over to 2B with Kent gone, and Laroche to third.

2005-09-17 10:38:55
12.   King of the Hobos
Tracy should follow McKeon's example when he start Repko:

Castillo 2B
Pierre CF
Cabrera LF
Delgado 1B
Conine RF
Loduca C
Lowell 3B
Willis P
Andino SS

2005-09-17 10:54:06
13.   sanchez101
How many people here actually think that the dodgers have a realistic chance at winning the division? Why are you setting yourself up for dissapointment? If the dodgers win today, people will start getting excited about possibley catching the Padres. If they loose, many here will irrationaly peg all the blame on tracy. Why cant we start rooting for next season? Personally im happy if guys like Aybar, Robles, Choi, Werth and Navarro do well. Which is why last nights game was not all that dissapointing. The Giants won with old guys like Alfonso, Vizquel, Bonds, and Durham who are only going to get worse. The Dodgers almost won with guys like Aybar, Navarro, Choi, Werth and Brazoban who are young and likely to improve. If you remove your self from who gets the win and who gets the loss (because it doesnt really matter) last nights game represents a great success for the dodgers.
2005-09-17 10:55:20
14.   jtshoe
I know this is off topic, but I noticed the Toaster has a link to donate to Katrina victims. If anyone is planning on doing this and has not yet, a great opportunity is through a Kindergarten class in Arizona. The kids are raising money by auctioning off their artwork. Its a bummer that a couple of the kids don't even have bids yet. Again, this money is 100% tax dedectible and goes directly through Ebay to the Red Cross. Check it out if you want to donate. This link takes you to a search for the kids stuff on Ebay.

2005-09-17 11:08:09
15.   Steve
13 -- Just to underscore your point, McCovey Chronicles is trying to sell itself Randy Winn and Brett Tomko(!) as we speak.
2005-09-17 11:25:08
16.   rageon
Tracy, on a midseason return from Izturis:

''That's a target date, not a guarantee,'' manager Jim Tracy said. ''Because of the position he plays, and the arm angles he must use to play that position, it's difficult to know when he'll be ready.''

Now we know why he doesn't play Choi, he can't handle the arm angles on the throws from short.

2005-09-17 11:31:14
17.   sanchez101
15. See, this makes me happy as well. Steve Phillips has an article on ESPN where he ranks the non-contending teams by their outlook for next season, he ranks the Giants #3 because he has faith that adding Bonds to an already productive "core" or Vizquel, Alou, Matheny and Benitez are primed to be very good next season.

Hopefully the Giants front office believes this kind of outlook and puts another old, decaying team on the field. That combined with the anemic state of their farm system will mean that the eventual rebuilding effort will take many years.

2005-09-17 11:41:42
18.   Steve
You mean "already productive" with ironic quotes signifying that this is a term of art, and not actually true.
2005-09-17 11:46:54
19.   sanchez101
Well they are productive in the sense that they make a lot of money and get a lot of compliments by sportswriters/broadcasters
2005-09-17 11:49:10
20.   Identity Crisis
Hey, does anybody want Los Angeles Kings tickets for tonight's game? This game is between the Mighty Ducks and the Kings at the Staples Center....7:30pm. The tickets aren't very good (I think they are in section 332) but they were free. The person I was going with cancelled so I'm going to just pass on going. I can send them via email....they are just sitting in my email box as I speak. I have to leave my house right now but I will probably come back around 2 or so.
2005-09-17 11:54:47
21.   Steve
Well they are productive in the sense that they make a lot of money

True, they do help the GNP.

2005-09-17 12:00:44
22.   werthgagne31
aybar 3b
robles ss
kent 2b
ledee lf
seanz 1b
cruz rf
navarro c
repko cf
weaver p
2005-09-17 12:02:10
23.   werthgagne31
why repko whats wrong with werth?
are we ever gonna see antonio perez again?
2005-09-17 12:10:26
24.   b1ued0dger
Suns game started.

2005-09-17 12:12:07
25.   King of the Hobos
23 Not with Aybar doing so well. Tracy is absolutely convinced that because Perez can't play 3B, he can't play SS. He doesn't realize that the reason he can't play 3B is because he has never played there regularly, while he has been a SS throughout his career

Suns game started, Suns went 1-2-3 in the 1st. The normal DAWLLMGR line up, Orenduff pitching for the first time in the playoffs

2005-09-17 12:13:29
26.   King of the Hobos
Pringles Field or whatever it's called needs a new camera. The camera behind the net is very annoying, especially as there is only one camera
2005-09-17 12:17:39
27.   King of the Hobos
Took Orenduff 12 pitches to get the first out, whereas the Suns took 14 total
2005-09-17 12:18:42
28.   werthgagne31
man that's sad.
it makes me wish that we would get eliminated so perez and choi can play everyday, but then again would tracy do that even after we are eliminated, i doubt it.
i want tracy gone so bad.
2005-09-17 12:21:13
29.   King of the Hobos
Took Oreduff around 20 pitches, but he had a 1-2-3 inning. After one, nothing's happened
2005-09-17 12:21:53
30.   Dodgersrock24
20 I'm interest in going to tonights game. I check if your back on around 2
2005-09-17 12:24:45
31.   King of the Hobos
Loney crushed the ball to right, 1-0 Suns
2005-09-17 12:39:18
32.   b1ued0dger
Great play by Tony Abreu to take away a hit and 2 rbi's from the Diamond-Jaxx. Still 1-0 Suns.
2005-09-17 12:39:27
33.   King of the Hobos
Orenduff allowed a leadoff double, got an out, then Ruggiano lost a ball off his glove (probably because of the sun), putting men at 2nd and 3rd. Orenduff then struck out the 7 hitter, and Abreu made a nice play to get the 8 hitter, still 1-0 after 2 innings
2005-09-17 12:44:14
34.   King of the Hobos
Suns go 1-2-3 quickly, although Donavon drove it to the wall. Apparently, the ball drives very well here during the day
2005-09-17 12:44:48
35.   sanchez101
where is the webcast of the suns game?

Perez and robles are both fighting for spots on next years team. Im not that dissapointed with robles starting ahead of Perez, even if it would be nice to see if he could play short.

2005-09-17 12:48:11
36.   b1ued0dger
35 Try this
2005-09-17 12:59:34
37.   King of the Hobos
35 I believe it's the link in 24
2005-09-17 13:14:42
38.   King of the Hobos
Yet again Orenduff has 2 men on for Reyes and Rohas, with the same basic result. 1-0 Suns, but Orenduff has made around 70 pitches in 4 IP
2005-09-17 13:19:55
39.   LAT
No Werth. No Phillips. Even if lose it won't be all bad.
2005-09-17 13:22:46
40.   King of the Hobos
Orenduff failed a bunt, but Ruggiano was able to steal second. Then Donavon drove the ball again, again flying out, this time to center. Halfway through the game, Suns lead 1-0
2005-09-17 13:24:07
41.   King of the Hobos
I completely forgot about the Dodgers game...nice catch by Repko, and the stop on the double wasn't bad either
2005-09-17 13:24:10
42.   trainwreck
The link to the suns' game is not working for me. Is anyone else having that problem?
2005-09-17 13:29:52
43.   King of the Hobos
Orenduff allowed a single, but Martin caught him stealing. Done with 5

Cruz just missed...

2005-09-17 13:34:22
44.   b1ued0dger
42 Have you tried going to and clicking on the link.
2005-09-17 13:35:58
45.   trainwreck
thanks that worked.
2005-09-17 13:36:36
46.   b1ued0dger
No problem.
2005-09-17 13:40:26
47.   King of the Hobos
Martin just had an RBI single, Guzman up with 2 on, 2-0 Suns. New pitcher for West Tenn
2005-09-17 13:43:26
48.   King of the Hobos
AYBAR! 1st major league homer

Guzman grounded out at the exact same time, 2-0 Suns after 5.5

2005-09-17 13:43:53
49.   natepurcell
aybar is amazing.
2005-09-17 13:43:57
50.   LAT
Aybar HR (1st ML Hr) Dodger 1-0
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2005-09-17 13:44:20
51.   werthgagne31
i love it, aybar homers.
2005-09-17 13:44:50
52.   natepurcell
that homerun was basically a rope. a line drive that just took off.
2005-09-17 13:44:52
53.   LAT
Man, my post was as slow as Jason Phillips.
2005-09-17 13:45:11
54.   sanchez101
aybar-the next beltre? is that a good or bad?
2005-09-17 13:46:52
55.   King of the Hobos
West Tenn gets a leadoff double as they attempt a comeback. The announcer (who regularly announces for West Tenn) was convinced it was a homer, but it's a tall wall here
2005-09-17 13:51:04
56.   D4P
Izturis, Robles, and Aybar all got off to great starts this year.

Izturis and Robles both dropped off precipitously. Will the same thing happen to Aybar? Stay tuned.

2005-09-17 13:51:30
57.   King of the Hobos
1 out double for Brandon Sing, 2-1 Suns. Luis Gonzalez in the pen, which doesn't make much sense as he's played a lot lately
2005-09-17 13:52:23
58.   CanuckDodger
Can Aybar do anything to convince the Dodgers he should be there 2006 3B? The Times and Daily News made it sound like the Dodgers want anybody but Aybar there next year, including the rapidly declining Garciaparra. Just stupid. And no, LaRoche is not ready for the majors.
2005-09-17 13:52:56
59.   King of the Hobos
Guzman out of the game for Sergio Garcia, Shoemaker must hope the better defense will preserve the win over the offense. Gonzalez in to itch, man on second, 1 out. A base hit ties it...
2005-09-17 13:54:13
60.   King of the Hobos
I hate Winn, 1-1 tie. Weaver was disappointed that he didn't give that to Schmidt, so he gave it to Winn
2005-09-17 13:55:17
61.   D4P

Can Aybar play SS? It would be nice to have a 3B with more power (yes, I know he just hit a HR).

2005-09-17 13:55:32
62.   natepurcell
Izturis and Robles both dropped off precipitously. Will the same thing happen to Aybar? Stay tuned.

god, why are you even here.

izturis did drop off, but we know now he was playing incredibly hurt.

robles started out terribly, even if you dont remember that. then he got hot and he has reverted back to the mean. i dont think anyone would think robles would hit 330 for the whole year.

the same for aybar. hes not going to be this good. hes going to revert back to the mean sometime. but for now, enjoy the ride.

2005-09-17 13:55:50
63.   King of the Hobos
Both leadoff men have solo homers...

Line drive to Garcia, Sing was running, easy DP. 2-1 Suns after 6 innings

2005-09-17 13:58:38
64.   D4P

What is Aybar's "mean"?

2005-09-17 14:00:13
65.   natepurcell
what he showed in jacksonville in 2004 is what you can expect from him in the majors.
2005-09-17 14:00:17
66.   CanuckDodger
No, Aybar cannot play SS, and the Dodgers idiotic desire for "more power" at 3B when they just picked up a power hitting 2B in Kent is what led to signing Valentin and ignoring Randa. Power is not the only way to get runs, and not every hitter in the line-up has to produce like a middle of the order hitter, though I think in time Aybar could hit like a #5 hitter.
2005-09-17 14:02:44
67.   trainwreck
lol did anyone else here the jacks commentator at the end of the inning?
2005-09-17 14:02:54
68.   King of the Hobos
The video feed for the Suns game has gotten very choppy, all I know is Ruggiano got on 1st, Garcia bunted him over, Donavon popped up, and Abreu made out
2005-09-17 14:03:36
69.   D4P

Well, I certainly hope they don't sign another 3B based solely upon his previous season HR total (a la Valentin).

2005-09-17 14:03:37
70.   werthgagne31
""""""Can Aybar play SS? It would be nice to have a 3B with more power""""""""

i don't see why not.
nothing from the free agency list at 3b impresses me as far as power.
laroche at 3b, but he'd probably be rushed.
but i bet laroche would be called up half way thru next season, therefore moving aybar to ss.

forget izturis, he's done as a dodger, unless tracy sticks around and is calling the shots.
i'm sick of both of them.

2005-09-17 14:03:45
71.   b1ued0dger
67 I did, i guess he is angry because his team is lossing.
2005-09-17 14:06:18
72.   King of the Hobos
Walk Repko for Weaver? Ok...
2005-09-17 14:07:59
73.   King of the Hobos
Laroche makes a wide throw, but Loney gets it, 1-2-3 inning for Gonzalez. Broxton likely will get the last 2 innings (definitely the last one).
2005-09-17 14:09:25
74.   regfairfield
69 Valentin hit at least 25 home runs in the five previous seasons. That sort of power production for three million dollars is an amazing deal. If you can't sign someone based on that, what can you sign them on?
2005-09-17 14:16:26
75.   King of the Hobos
Martin just doubled in Loney, 3-1 Suns. An extra run for Broxton with Alvarez at teh plate

The West Tenn announcer announced his MVP for the series, Eric Hull

2005-09-17 14:16:33
76.   Steve
74 -- perception uncoupled from reality, of course
2005-09-17 14:17:52
77.   Uncle Miltie
Where did Aybar hit his HR? I was out to lunch
2005-09-17 14:18:39
78.   D4P

His HR totals have been pretty decent, but I'm not that impressed with his OBP the past 3 seasons (not including this year): .311, .313, .287.

2005-09-17 14:19:00
79.   King of the Hobos
Alvarez walked, Ruggiano up, men on 1st and 2nd, 2 outs
2005-09-17 14:19:37
80.   King of the Hobos
Ruggiano swung at the first pitch, grounder to the 3B. Broxton in to pitch the 8th, Suns lead 3-1
2005-09-17 14:20:22
81.   King of the Hobos
77 Line drive that just went forever over the tall wall in right
2005-09-17 14:22:46
82.   D4P
Anyone catch the story about Bonds* planning to lose a bunch of weight before next season? He wants to lose some 28 pounds, allegedly because of his knee. How convenient.
2005-09-17 14:25:10
83.   Uncle Miltie
81- thanks
82- he wants to go back to his pre-steroid weight? Does that mean his system will be completely cleaned out next year? Is he going to go back to being a speedster? Bonds=Dave Roberts minus the speed?
2005-09-17 14:26:36
84.   Jose Habib
I just realized that I haven't seen any Dodgers TV ads featuring Milton Bradley in a long time - however they still show the JD Drew ads, even though both are out for the season. Is that a sure sign that Bradley has played his last game as a Dodger?
2005-09-17 14:29:22
85.   King of the Hobos
Broxton got the 1, 2, and 3 hitters on 2 flyballs to Donavon and a K. One inning left, 4-5-6 hitters for West Tenn against Broxton. Garcia, Donavon, and Abreu looking for another run

That Linden hit was...strange

2005-09-17 14:34:40
86.   King of the Hobos
The Suns go very quickly in the 9th

Broxton needs 3 outs to end the season...

2005-09-17 14:37:46
87.   King of the Hobos
Laroche reaches into the dugout for the first out, 2 outs left

Is Jackson in the pen just for work? Weaver is at what? 47 pitches?

2005-09-17 14:39:08
88.   King of the Hobos
Sing doubles just over Donavon's glove in deep center. 1 out, Broxton will make this interesting
2005-09-17 14:41:17
89.   King of the Hobos
Garcia takes a grounder on the OF grass, and gets the out, Guzman wouldn't have made that more than likely. 1 out left, man on 1st. PH for Reyes
2005-09-17 14:42:26
90.   King of the Hobos
Pop up, Loney catches it, now he's buried under a mound of players

The Jacksonville Suns are your 2005 Southern League Champions!!!

2005-09-17 14:42:40
91.   trainwreck
Champs!! Congratulations guys. Will be a great group of guys to watch for years to come.
2005-09-17 14:44:04
92.   King of the Hobos
Back to the Dodgers, bad defense in the inning...
2005-09-17 14:48:34
93.   jpeace
Good job Suns!
2005-09-17 14:50:49
94.   King of the Hobos
He shouldn't have faced Durham, that wasn't good...
2005-09-17 14:53:10
95.   Steve
Another bunt pays dividends for the opposition
2005-09-17 14:53:18
96.   King of the Hobos
Nice call by the umps, that was foul. And that last pitch was much better. Weaver had a lot of problems, but got out of it well enough
2005-09-17 14:58:12
97.   oldbear
Olmedo Saenz is 6-36 in Sept, for a .167 Average. That equates to a .544 OPS.

Schmidt is out now. Tracy should put in Choi. And I'm surprised Repko is in there instead of Werth?

What was the reasoning behind that?

2005-09-17 15:01:39
98.   still bevens
97 Havent we begun to stop trying to see the reason in Tracy's decisions for the past couple months?
2005-09-17 15:02:39
99.   D4P

Why do people keep insisting that Tracy's decisions must have "reasoning" behind them?

2005-09-17 15:04:23
100.   still bevens
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2005-09-17 15:16:17
101.   Steve
Oh, Charlie, is he backing the wrong horse. Make him pay, Tomato.
2005-09-17 15:16:41
102.   werthgagne31
nice at bat for a walk for perez.

now is the ferfect time to bring in choi its vs a righthander.

2005-09-17 15:19:27
103.   King of the Hobos
Tracy needs to stop listening to Lyons. The Giants saw that coming a mile away
2005-09-17 15:19:47
104.   Identity Crisis
Dodgersrock24. Sorry, couldn't get home. If you still want those tix...they are yours. Post your email addy and I'll forward them to you. Please post it within the hour.
2005-09-17 15:19:47
105.   Steve
Why do I even try?
2005-09-17 15:20:30
106.   oldbear
Nothing like running yourself out of an inning. But with Saenz up, it probably wouldnt have mattered.
2005-09-17 15:22:36
107.   oldbear
Now Tracy brings in Jayson Werth in place of Ricky Ledee?

Why not have just let Werth hit for Ledee?

This means that Jason Repko is gonna play the whole game...

I've given up on Tracy. Only 15 or more games left of nonsense.

2005-09-17 15:23:48
108.   oldbear
Now Weaver hits a guy hitting .125.
2005-09-17 15:25:21
109.   trainwreck
I think you gave up on Tracy ages ago.
2005-09-17 15:27:40
110.   King of the Hobos
Weaver is reaching the end of the line. Schmoll may not do well against lefties (Bonds), but he's more reliable than tired Weaver
2005-09-17 15:29:48
111.   Steve
Is Bonds available? I heard something about his knee acting up and he was NA at all.
2005-09-17 15:31:08
112.   Steve
Not that it matters now.
2005-09-17 15:31:32
113.   oldbear
Vizquel, batting .177 in 62 at bats in Sept, beats Weaver.

THat was terrible Weaver. Banjo hitting Omar Vizquel.

2005-09-17 15:32:40
114.   King of the Hobos
Saenz-Cruz-Navarro, good a chance as any. Would be nice if Choi PH'd for Saenz
2005-09-17 15:33:15
115.   Monterey Chris
Yesterday we lose on BB, sac. bunt and base hit. Today we might lose on a HBP, sac. bunt and base hit.
2005-09-17 15:33:23
116.   oldbear
When you hit a guy hitting .125, and give up GW line drives to banjo hitting SS's that are near 40 year olds...

You deserve to lose.

2005-09-17 15:34:04
117.   King of the Hobos
113 But he hits .336 with RISP ;)

He also hurt Penny yesterday. He's really not that bad of a hitter, he's better than someone like Izturis

2005-09-17 15:34:35
118.   Dodgersrock24
Identity Crisis my email address is
2005-09-17 15:35:37
119.   Steve
There is The Benitez Factor(TM).
2005-09-17 15:39:52
120.   Steve
No, there isn't
2005-09-17 15:39:59
121.   King of the Hobos
They played that perfectly, too bad. There's always tomorrow, we're officially spoiler at this point. I personally am rooting for the Padres tonight I guess, don't want the Giants 4.5 behind
2005-09-17 15:41:36
122.   werthgagne31
3 hits all game, i can understand against schmidt, but we should have hit their middle relief.
2005-09-17 15:45:08
123.   King of the Hobos
122 The Giants bullpen has something like a 2.33 ERA lately, Something like that was in one of the graphics. Eyre and Benitez are understandable, and Accoardo can be good, so it's not like we were facing terrible relievers. The only man vs Walker reached, it's Tracy's fault we didn't do more against him.
2005-09-17 15:47:17
124.   oldbear
122. Choi needs to play 1st base against all comers the rest of the way. Phillips is 2-23 this month, and Saenz is now 7-36.

AP should be playing 3rd now.
We need to take a look at Aybar at SS.

Robles is a utililty player at best next season. Saenz is probably a DH in the AL next year as well.

Lets play the guys that have futures, whether that means any of the Jax 5 that come up, or Choi, Perez, Aybar together.

I'm definitey rooting for the Padres. I dont want the Giants to win the NL West.

2005-09-17 15:48:23
125.   Steve
Is Tony Clark God or Beelzebub?
2005-09-17 15:51:27
126.   werthgagne31
2005-09-17 15:52:02
127.   King of the Hobos
124 Perez has played a lot of SS in the minors. Aybar hasn't played there since Rookie Ball I believe. They really should be switched in your plan. I'm hoping Perez plays winterball at short this year to help his chances next year. As long as Tracy manages though, he has no chance playing at the position
2005-09-17 15:54:16
128.   D4P

As long as Tracy manages, Perez has no chance of playing at ANY position.

2005-09-17 15:54:23
129.   King of the Hobos
Another thing to bring up, since the Suns won today, we will now have Broxton in the pen so Tracy can never use him like Kuo. And possibly a few more call ups, we have 2 spots on the roster right now (2 guys on the 15 day DL who could be on teh 60 day)
2005-09-17 15:56:37
130.   oldbear
127. I agree AP should be playing SS. But he'll never get a shot there, so I thought maybe he could get time at 3rd at least.

I'm losing interest in the team. I might regain some if some of the Jax Suns are called up and PLAY. If not, i'll just wait till Tracy opts out (i think he has the 1st week after the season is over to do so).

Back to ND-MSU.

2005-09-17 15:56:59
131.   Identity Crisis
Tickets sent.
2005-09-17 16:03:09
132.   Uncle Miltie
124- Aybar is not playing SS. Antonio Perez is a butcher at SS. If you want Perez to play, then move Kent to 1B and play Perez at 2B. Robles since the All Star break:
.247/.314/.342 .656

If anything, he's showing the he does not deserve to be the starting SS next year. He hits like Izturis and is an average fielder.

2005-09-17 16:04:27
133.   werthgagne31
tracy,izturis,repko,valentin (contract ending),phillips,carrara,alvarez(due to retire),wunsch (don't like loogys), and all those AAAA guys (edwards,myrow,grabowski) all need to go.
2005-09-17 16:05:36
134.   Dodgersrock24
I got the tickets. I really appreciated. Thank you so much.
2005-09-17 16:07:32
135.   werthgagne31
you worry too much about defense.
2005-09-17 16:13:25
136.   trainwreck
How do you know Perez is a butcher at SS? That was his original position and the position he played in the minors.
2005-09-17 16:18:20
137.   King of the Hobos
132 I assume you've watched him play SS, correct? Or are you also making the assumption that because he can't play 3rd, which he's never regularly played before this year, he can't play SS?
2005-09-17 16:22:12
138.   Identity Crisis
You're welcome. Cheer extra loud for me when welcoming back everyone.
2005-09-17 16:22:21
139.   Vishal
UCLA wins! hopefully this is the end of the pac-10 being considered a weak conference.
2005-09-17 16:35:37
140.   Uncle Miltie
135- you don't value defense at all. If Choi was right handed, you'd probably want him to play 3B or catcher.
137- I saw him play SS in the minors. He doesn't have the arm strength to play to SS and he doesn't have very good hands either. You don't play players at positions where they can't even play acceptable defense. Perez will play SS in emergency situations only. It's like suggesting that Adrian Beltre should move back to SS.
2005-09-17 16:40:00
141.   Steve
I don't understand where the sentences:

"Antonio Perez is a butcher at (wherever)"


"Antonio Perez should be playing every day"

are mutually exclusive. In my own opinion, Antonio Perez is a butcher in the field. I coined the term "Darth Offerman." So what?

Another irony of this year is that the Padres caused far more damage to the Dodgers by helping them pretend they were in a "pennant race" than had they run away with it like they should have back in June.

2005-09-17 16:41:16
142.   fanerman
Another irony of this year is that the Padres caused far more damage to the Dodgers by helping them pretend they were in a "pennant race" than had they run away with it like they should have back in June.

I agree 100%.

2005-09-17 16:47:08
143.   werthgagne31
again you worry too much about defense.
perez played fine defense at shortstop in the minors and aybar use to play shortstop in the lower level minors.

and i don't know what your talking about with choi.

2005-09-17 16:51:50
144.   Uncle Miltie
again you worry too much about defense.
I must be crazy because I care about defense at positions where defense is important?
perez played fine defense at shortstop in the minors and aybar use to play shortstop in the lower level minors
Perez did not play "fine defense" in the minors. I saw him and he was a butcher. Do you have anything to back up your theory? I never saw Aybar when he was a SS, but don't you think there's a reason why he switched positions? Andy LaRoche and Adrian Beltre started off at SS, why didn't they just stay there? Why aren't Paul Konerko and Jason Giambi playing 3B in the majors?
2005-09-17 16:52:52
145.   natepurcell
perez played fine defense at shortstop in the minors and aybar use to play shortstop in the lower level minors.

those statements are not quit accurate.

Perez was average at best last yr at SS in vegas. aybar, played ss in rookie ball, then he was moved over to 3b and hasnt played SS in about 4 years or so.

2005-09-17 17:00:40
146.   werthgagne31
that's what i mean, average is fine.
and you just agreed with me about aybar playing ss in the lower level minors.

if robles can play 3b and ss than aybar can too.

and remember if you can score runs consistantly and pitch good, how much of a difference is good defense vs average defense.

2005-09-17 17:11:50
147.   natepurcell
i didnt agree with you. your statement was misleading. your statement that he has played SS in the lower level minors implies that he was an SS all the way up til he reached AA. which is not the case at all.
2005-09-17 17:20:44
148.   Steve
The issue isn't even what Antonio Perez "is." It is what he could (or could not) "be," given the same level of support and confidence given to, say, Jason Repko, who somewhere along the way parlayed no discernable offensive skill plus vastly overrated defensive ability into a LoDuca-esque cult hero.
2005-09-17 17:21:26
149.   Steve
Plus the funny-looking LoDuca facial hair. Musn't forget that either.
2005-09-17 17:21:35
150.   werthgagne31
144 and 145
how much of a difference is good defense vs average defense.
is it that significant to you to sacrifice offense, i mean do you want alex cora back or what.
do you want an aging injury prone garciapara.

seriously how many more runs would be given up throughout a season with average defense at either 3b or ss not both just 1 of the positions vs good defense?

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2005-09-17 17:38:59
151.   King of the Hobos
Let's say that hypothetically the Dodgers sign Ron Washington as manager (or really any coaching position). If he worked with Perez, anyone think Perez may be at least league average at short or third? Both Crosby and Chavez were considered below average defenders, but are considered much better now, supposedly thanks to Washington. He's made that entire team very good defensively

So if we got him, and after enough work in winterball/ST, he deemed Perez a worthy SS or 3B, would we accept Perez at one of those positions? Or is he beyond someone like Washington's help?

2005-09-17 18:10:29
152.   dzzrtRatt
The recent devaluation of defense by saber-fans has two causes: It's hard to measure precisely whether an individual player is "good," "average" or "poor." And, there is no consensus on the relative value of a good defense vs. an average defense, if the average (or even poor) defense is comprised of players who get on base and have power. There are lots of people on this board who seem impatient with anyone who mentions a player's defensive capabilities. The attitude seems to be: "If he can hit, who cares? Stop dwelling on it."

Where I come out is, defense is incredibly important. It needs to be seen as part of pitching. Good defense allows pitchers to throw fewer pitches. Inning don't get extended; pitchers don't feel as if a strikeout is the only way to ensure an out; double-plays cut off rallies, etc. Since the pitcher is the primary determinant of whether a team will win or lose a game, the question of whether he can rely on his defense becomes a crucial factor in a team's success in a game.

If Perez and Choi are sub-par defensively, then it is understandable why they don't play more. But that's "if." What I don't really know with any certainty is whether they are truly below average. From my observation, Choi is a fine first baseman, and Perez is somewhat challenged in the field. But I don't know if it's provable. The lack of an agreed-upon measuring system for defense means defense is getting short shrift in the overall analysis of a player's value. People were able to say that by signing Kent and letting go of Cora, the Dodgers would suffer on defense because until we saw him day after day, Dodger fans didn't realize Kent is an excellent defender.

One tactic to get a handle on defensive capability might be to use opinion research. Do an anonymous survey of pitchers in each league at the end of each season as to who they'd like to see behind them in a game. The pitchers know.

2005-09-17 18:21:12
153.   Fallout
152. dzzrtRatt

Good post...

2005-09-17 18:27:03
154.   Bob Timmermann
Well, I had a good time at the Rose Bowl....
2005-09-17 18:48:05
155.   trainwreck
I am from the bay area and also a Dodger/A's fan so I watch all the A's games and have for years and I can tell you that Washington has made every single infielder a better defensive player. No they were not all great defensive players, but he at least made them better than they were. Dan Johnson came in this year and he was not very good in AAA at defense. And within a couple of weeks of working with Wash he has become a very solid defender. As you mentioned Chavez was considered bad defensively in the minors and he has become one of the best defensive third baseman in the game. So I think he would help. How much, impossible to tell, but I think he would make them all better.
2005-09-17 18:58:52
156.   trainwreck
Defense is important but I do not think a team should sacrifice offense for defense at every part of the field. I think the best thing to do is load the outfield and first with offensive talent so then the team can concentrate more on defense for ss, c, 2nd, and 3rd. Our team is not loaded offensively enough to sacrifice a lot of offense for defense. The Red Sox do this well. That team is so stacked they can go for purely defensive players at second and ss (if they chose to). Obviously if you can get players who hit and play defense you have to do it. Kent is a great second baseman any way you cut it. He is solid defensively because he is very good at positioning himself and he hits a ton for second baseman. This is a big reason I did not want to lose Beltre, but he is gone and we have LaRoche waiting in the wings anyways and I think Aybar is a solid player as well.
2005-09-17 18:59:54
157.   trainwreck
That game was sweet. Finally beat Oklahoma and finally won a big game. Drew Olson is making all the difference this year.
2005-09-17 19:01:35
158.   Bob Warth

RE: The Bruins. Glad to see the offense putting numbers on the scoreboard. But I'm concerned about the defense (as usual). How did it look today? Gave up a lot of yards...

2005-09-17 19:06:10
159.   trainwreck
Defense played well. They barely ever tackled Peterson on the first tackle and Bromar ran a lot too, but we are not good at run defense anyway so all things considered we did well against the run. Defense created a lot of turnovers and really good games by Keyes, London, and Havner.
2005-09-17 19:30:31
160.   Christina
152 - an excellent post, and I enjoyed reading it. I agree that defense is undervalued in part because it's hard to accurately measure it statistically, and that some are going a little too far in their unequivocal favoring of offense over defense.

That said, I'm not quite where you are either. I'd take issue with your statement that the starting pitcher is the primary determinant of whether a team will win or lose a game. A primary determinant, yes, but I don't feel the primary determinant. After all, to win a game, it is not enough to shut down the other team. You have to score to win, and unlike football, the job is entirely up to your offense - you're not going to have your defense scoring a TD for you every now and then off an interception.

It's not that I think that defense should be completely sacrificed in favor of offense; far from it. I hate it when there's a player who tends to hit a run in and then give it right back with his glove the next inning. But, much like the school of thought that says you should focus on getting your starting rotation together first, and then on adding that dominant closer, I think teams need to focus on getting those several key bats first and then filling the other positions with strong defenders.

As you said in your post, pitchers doubtless know who they prefer to have behind them in games. But I'm also sure that pitchers know who they prefer to have in hitting in the line-up. Some pitchers are extremely gracious about it; other pitchers complain as Odalis Perez did; but I'm sure it hurts all of them when they allow just 1 or 2 runs and still lose the game because their offense could not score. (Why yes, I am fresh off watching the second of the A's losses in Boston, why do you ask?)

Pitching is crucial. Pitching wins championships. A good/great defense helps a pitcher greatly. But if you can't score, it's all for nothing.

I think the other thing that makes me lean strongly towards offense at the moment is that Moneyball is about exploiting inefficiencies in the market, buying what's undervalued. Defense is undervalued right now, so I'm not worried that DePo is going to ditch all the good defensive players. I'm more worried that we won't see the acquisition of the offense that we need, since power continues to be valued highly and is, I suspect, always going to be valued highly.

2005-09-17 19:31:48
161.   Bob Warth
Thanks 'wreck. Even though Oklahoma doesn't appear to have a great team this year, it's still nice to see the flex some nonconference muscle.
2005-09-17 19:55:41
162.   sanchez101
160. I agree with Christina. When it comes to Perez, his arm probably precludes him from spending much time on the left side of the infield, and as much as hes become guys hero, he does have his limitation. Its actually amazing that as a 2B on the same team as Jeff Kent, he's gotten 250 PA.

But it seems clear that there is probably not enough room for Perez, Kent, and Choi to get 500 ab's a piece. If Kent could be convinced to play 1B 1/3 of the time, then you could platoon choi and perez, but im not sure Kent is all that willing to spend that much time at 1B.

This is one of the reasons i think its likely that he will get traded this offseason. The other reason is that he's not 317 hitter. He doesnt have much power, this year he hasnt walked much, and strikes-out 23% of the time. Thats a limited offense upside when your finishing up you age 25 season, and its not as if he's Orlando Hudson with the leather. If some GM thinks that Perez is as good as some around here think he is, Depodesta should trade him for someone that would be more usefull to the 2006 roster.

2005-09-17 20:06:42
163.   Steve
Restating 152 in Steve-Speak:

I would be more interested in talking about defense if people would stop making stuff up.

2005-09-17 20:12:51
164.   das411
14 - I didn't see it until now but thanks for posting that, jt. Kind of puts things in perspective...I gave blood last week and donated $ but there is always more that people can do to help.
2005-09-17 20:13:06
165.   Xeifrank
Missed the game, any announced reason why Choi didn't start? vr, Xei
2005-09-17 20:39:55
166.   Xeifrank
If we are going to poll pitchers to determine who the best fielders are, why don't we also poll pitchers to determine who the best hitters are. Great idea! :(
vr, Xei
2005-09-17 20:47:06
167.   D4P

They announced that, since Tracy was the manager today, Choi didn't get the start.

2005-09-17 20:57:32
168.   King of the Hobos
This turned out a lot longer than expected, but it fits the theme of long posts in the last hour or two

162 I'd agree that if DePo has a chance, Perez will be traded. If not him, then Young or Aybar, but I say Perez, merely because hsi age and service time. I wonder who DePo sees as the future 2B, Perez? Aybar? Young? Abreu? Denker? If Depo dislikes people with 5-letter last names, Denker has the upperhand

DePo's reason for trading Perez is not because of his deficiencies, but rather his position. The free agency market has nothing for the 2B challenged. The Dodgers, however, have 6 legitimate 2Bs that played the entire year in full season ball. Free agency this year has 2 "highlights," Grudzielanek and Graffanino. The latter is a utility player who is have a career (contract) year, and will likely get a deal for more than he's worth. After them, it's Cairo and the Royals Duo of Hocking and McEwing. Durham, Belliard and Walker have options at $7 mil, $4 mil, and $2.5 mil respectively. The Giants have nothing, so I see them picking it up. The other 2 are harder to say because they have internal options. As for trade, there's Soriano and whatever the Dodgers want to give up, but the Rangers will likely ask for only top pitching prospects

So with little in free agency or trade, these teams will have to find some 2Bs:
Minnesota-Currently use an embarassing mix of Luis Rivas, Nick Punto, Luis Rodriguez, and Brent Abernathy
KC-Have Murphy and Gotay, and rumor has it they'll try to get Graffanino back (he's told Baird he wants to come back or something)
Red Sox-Likely will make a large offer to Grudz or Graffanino. Either way, a big mistake
Yankees-Seem to like Cano, if they sour on him, they may become trading partners. I doubt it
Mets-Cairo is a FA, Matsui sucks. I have to assume they'll want someone. They need a 1B, maybe they want Phillips back as well ;)
Cards-They've got very little to replace Grudzielanek with. May be interested, but not much to trade
Reds-They're not sure if they like Olmedo. Could play Freel. Who knows
A's-Supposedly wanted Perez already. Their current 2Bs are underperforming or just not very good
Mariners-Have Lopez, but who knows if they'll be smart and play him at short or not

Out of those targets, Minnesota seems the best. They're already have problems with the Rangers, who want Liriano. Plus they won't give much money to any FA. They also have a surplus of pitching, namely Boof Bonser (who I mentioned in another thread). The Mets, Red Sox, and Cards seem to be the other 3 most desperate teams, but I expect them to end up with Graffanino, Grudzielanek, and Soriano

2005-09-17 21:14:06
169.   dzzrtRatt
160 Christina,

All things in moderation, for sure. A pure pitching/defense minded team that goes onto the WS is rare. But baseball is set up as a pitchers' game. The pitcher is in every play. The fielders, acting collectively, make plays to help the pitcher meet his goal, which is 3 outs. Batters are the obstacles facing the pitchers, but they have to wait their turn. Manny Ramirez or Andruw Jones can't do a thing to help their team offensively if it isn't their turn to bat. In the field, the ball could get hit to them at any moment.

Powerwise, we should be okay next season if we have both Kent and Drew in the lineup, and assume that DePo will look for power to fill the LF slot. I suspect he's also in the market for a veteran first baseman who hits homers and will take a Kent-like contract. Choi and Perez both look like trade bait to me.

2005-09-17 21:14:18
170.   Steve
Joe Randa: Helping the Padres Stay In First Place
2005-09-17 21:16:48
171.   King of the Hobos
The Padres are losing 5-0 in the 7th. Adam Eaton gave up 4 runs, walking Guzman and allowing him a base hit. The Padres are being shut out by Hector Carrasco, although he came out after 6 IP. Carrasco is 35 and pitched for Japan last year (I believe). His lowest ERA came in his '94 rookie year (although he has that beat this year). This is his third career start. He went 4 IP a few days ago in his second. His first came in 2000, he started the last game of the season for the Red Sox, went 2 innings, allowing 5 baserunners. Yet he goes 6 innings today, allowing 3 hits, and probably could have gone longer all considered

What will it take for them to take the division? The Giants will be 4.5 back, and there's only so much the Dodgers can do in a Dessens vs Lowry matchup. And they continually give us false hope. I really hate the Padres this year

2005-09-17 21:17:07
172.   dzzrtRatt
Did anyone go to the Cal game today?
2005-09-17 21:27:52
173.   808Bears
I did. Score was not indicitive of how close the game was. Cal was down 17-7 at the half, and seemingly getting pushed around on both sides of the ball. But Tedford made some halftime adjustments, the defense stepped up, and the o-line and backs (Forsett -- wow) even without Lynch were able to wear down the Illini. All in all a rather ugly game, but that's only in comparison to what Bears fans are used to these days.
2005-09-17 21:32:19
174.   coachjpark
Still 5.5 games back.... if we can get it down to 3 games (and presumably SF is behind us) before the San Diego series, there's still hope. Slim, but it's within the realm of possibility. Have we put ourselves in a situation in which we can consider the possibility of perhaps somehow reaching postseason play? I don't know.

160 It really boils down to Jim Tracy or Hee Seop Choi staying put, doesn't it? Tracy has made it such that he and Choi cannot coexist together. I think DePodesta won't fire Tracy, but there's absolutely no chance he'll retain him for the 2007 season. It's been mentioned before, but DePo probably put the "out" clause in Tracy's contract specifically in the hopes that Tracy would exercise it.

2005-09-17 21:33:45
175.   coachjpark
I meant 169 regarding Choi being trade bait... although right now would probably be a good time to trade Perez when his value is at its highest....
2005-09-17 21:34:38
176.   Fallout
170. Steve


2005-09-17 21:53:30
177.   coachjpark
In regards to Tracy's handling of Choi, what's frustrating is that Tracy gives Choi random starts once every 4 or 5 days and whether he does good or bad, he's not in the lineup the following day.

If Tracy is that adamant about Choi not playing, he should just simply bench him and start whoever he wishes to start on a regular basis. If he wants to employ a crazy Phillips/Saenz platoon, he should stick to it. I think there's a value on having a fairly consistent lineup day in and day out so that players know their roles.

2005-09-17 22:00:34
178.   Uncle Miltie
1. Gotay has much more potential than Antonio Perez. He's going to be a solid player.
2. Red Sox probably don't want him, they can see that he's BA is somewhat of an aberration
3. Yankees want proven veteran commodities
4. The Mets are a possibility though I think they have a pretty good 2B prospect that they are very high on (can't remember his name)
5. The Cardinals will want a veteran
6. He came up through the Reds farm system. Would they want him back? They definitely have a hole at 2B.
Their current 2Bs are underperforming or just not very good
7. Have you heard of a guy named Mark Ellis.
(.318/.380/.463 .844)..and he's pretty good with the glove too.
8. The M's are high on Lopez and they already had Perez.

Someone will want him, but people on this board are overvaluing him. He's not going to net us a pitcher like Aaron Harang.

2005-09-17 22:01:57
179.   dzzrtRatt
173 Thanks. I hate it that Cal is so rarely on TV in LA. I didn't check for a radio broadcast; last year you could pick it up sometimes.

I guess there are one or two teams the fans down here are more interested in. Gosh UCLA looked tough today.

177 I think Tracy would play Saenz more if Saenz' body could handle it. Choi did get demoted when Navarro came up and displaced Phillips at catcher, and he turned up starting at first. Tracy's wishful thinking was that Phillips' surging offense would render Choi utterly without value, and we'd all forget about him as JP got hit after hit with RISP. Oh well.

2005-09-17 22:02:44
180.   King of the Hobos
To restore sanity to Dodgers fans, Khalil Greene hit a game tying grand slam off Chad Cordero in the bottom of the 9th with 2 outs. Now its a battle of the bullpens
2005-09-17 22:11:20
181.   Sam DC
180 except the Nationals already used theirs getting to that point in the game.
2005-09-17 22:11:57
182.   dzzrtRatt
C'mon Washington...don't you want to win the Wild Card????

I'm like that scrawny guy in Lord of the Rings. As the Dodgers seem to get nearer to the top...or even fail to lose ground...I start gnawing on raw fish and talking to myself.

2005-09-17 22:12:57
183.   King of the Hobos
178 The A's were a bad example. I forgot Ellis was doing that good and was healthy. I added the Mariners because Lopez is a SS, yet they seem to think he's a 2B. I also forgot the Red Sox have a very good prospect, and shouldn't be on the list more than likely

Even you didn't have an objection to the Twins, what are your thoughts there? They no place for someone like Bonser, and are desperate for a 2B (please don't tell me those other guys are very good, only Rodriguez has any ability to hit). They may prefer Soriano, and have no interest in Perez. I don't know.

To be honest, that whole post was not very well thought out

2005-09-17 22:16:00
184.   Sam DC
181 All of it except Gigantor, that is . . .
2005-09-17 22:17:33
185.   dzzrtRatt
plus, now I'll have to hear Ted Leitner say, "yep, them's my Padres" all next week.

If San Diego has to win the west, fine, but don't do it in "dramatic fashion." Yecch.

2005-09-17 22:19:20
186.   King of the Hobos
The Nats have Loaiza pitching tomorrow on 3 days rest. They also have a total of 3 more pitchers in the pen, Halama, Ayala, and Rasner
2005-09-17 22:20:55
187.   Sam DC
186 And Ayala is in the pen in name only.
2005-09-17 22:22:15
188.   King of the Hobos
187 Didn't know that. Gigantor better go 6-7 innings if the Nats can't score, because they'll need it
2005-09-17 22:24:12
189.   King of the Hobos
With Ben Johnson on the bench, how is Damian Jackson in LF?
2005-09-17 22:25:59
190.   Uncle Miltie
183- your right about the Twins- good point. If they were willing to trade for Soriano (and his awful defense) then I'm sure they would be interested in Perez. The Twins have a bunch of garbage 2B and surplus of pitching prospects. Bonser is an interesting prospect, but he's still a prospect.
How about Antonio Perez, Milton Bradley, and a prospect (from the low minors)
for Torii Hunter and Travis Bowyer
2005-09-17 22:35:36
191.   King of the Hobos
190 I'd certainly consider that deal. Bowyer needs to get the BBs down, but would be a nice addition to the pen. Hunter is essentially Bradley with better defense and fewer anger problems (assuming Bradley can't hit like he did with Cleveland in '03 consistently). The biggest obstacle is whether the Twins will take Bradley.
2005-09-17 22:35:53
192.   Sam DC
170 he is right now . . . (just doubled)

On Ayala: "Robinson said there's a chance reliever Luis Ayala will have to stop pitching this season because of a bone spur in his right elbow. But team physician Bruce Thomas hopes Ayala can avoid such a fate. "He doesn't want to do that," Thomas said. "There's a chance that he'll be able to get through this without surgery."

Ayala began throwing Tuesday. Once the league leader in appearances, Ayala has pitched once since Aug. 21. . . ."

[sorry, lost the link, but it was in the Washington Post on 9/14/05]

2005-09-17 22:37:17
193.   Sam DC
Gigantor bats!
2005-09-17 22:39:45
194.   Sam DC
In case anyone's wondering, as I sit here at 1:40 am watching the Nationals on gameday (no tv, I've groused before), I am the one responsible for Greene's GS that tied it up. See, I promised my son I would leave a note with the score for him when he woke up in the morning, and when the score was 5-1 with 2 outs, I went ahead and wrote down "Nationals -- 5, Padres -- " waiting to see where SD ended up. So much for that plan . . .
2005-09-17 22:40:29
195.   Bob Timmermann
Stanford lost tonight to ....

UC Davis.

2005-09-17 22:45:01
196.   King of the Hobos
Gigantor allows the leadoff single. Greene is killing the Nats, now Woody Williams to bunt
2005-09-17 22:46:34
197.   King of the Hobos
And the bunt fails yet again. For all we know, McAnulty could have homered. Guess we'll never know
2005-09-17 22:48:37
198.   King of the Hobos
If the Nats need another pitcher, they now have Junior Spivey to replace Armas...
2005-09-17 22:49:57
199.   King of the Hobos
Jackson hits the pop fly "single," now Hernandez up
2005-09-17 22:51:29
200.   Uncle Miltie
Padres win, 3 run HR by Ramon Hernandez
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2005-09-17 22:51:37
201.   King of the Hobos
Gigantor makes a very bad pitch, the Dodgers are 6.5 back
2005-09-17 22:52:29
202.   Bob Timmermann
San Diego magic number: 10
2005-09-17 22:54:02
203.   Sam DC
And I write a sad note to darken a little boy's morning.

night all.

2005-09-17 22:54:26
204.   Uncle Miltie
Nationals announcer:
"Padres celebrating as if they've won the 7th game of the World Series"
Haha...I've always thought that, but didn't ever hear announcers say it.
2005-09-17 23:05:30
205.   coachjpark
Wow. Unbelievable. 5 runs in the bottom of the 9th. Some blame has to go to Robinson for this, no? It's kind of amazing that Chad Cordero has 7 blown saves considering his sub-2.00 E.R.A.
2005-09-17 23:30:40
206.   Tommy Naccarato
165. Xeifrank
Missed the game, any announced reason why Choi didn't start? vr, Xei

Because he isn't very good.....

I'm sorry, I just don't get the Choi thing. I completely understand why Tracy doesn't want to play him.

Yes, Tracy isn't very good. Especially with a team that is an injury plaqued one. Still, I could think of a lot worse guys to be managing the Dodgers.

2005-09-18 01:04:30
207.   Louis in SF
According to the SUnday LAT, the only SUn coming up from Double A is Broxton. This is clearly a DePodesta decision, is this all based on service time issues or are the prospects not ready for prime time. Seeing Loney get a few at bats or La Roche would be great....Jacque Jones from Minisota is a free agent and went to USC, any thoughts that they might get him?
2005-09-18 02:46:57
208.   Xeifrank
207. Yeah, it's most likely a service time issue. I will pass on Jacques Jones, he's really only had one decent year and isn't much of an upgrade from a healthy Jason Werth. vr, Xei
2005-09-18 02:48:56
209.   bokonon42
206- Kent is the only member of the line-up who is very good. Everybody else is marginal, or young. Using your logic, why shouldn't Jason Phillips start at SS? Or Oscar Robles at C? I mean, I can totally understand why Tracy wouldn't want to play Werth, so no big deal if he puts Saenz in CF. Right? Really, Houlton isn't that good, either, so why not give Myrow or Valentin a shot at cracking the rotation?
2005-09-18 03:13:25
210.   Xeifrank
206. Choi is the best option the Dodgers have at 1B, unless of course you are a big Myrow or Phillips fan... but that would mean your name was Jim Tracy. Jim? What are you doing here? vr, Xei
2005-09-18 05:52:01
211.   Sam DC
203 was woken up this morning by said little boy holding said note: "Oh no. Not again." Is it good to encourage baseball fandom, Dad wonders.

206 Well I'm no fan of Frank Robinson, and I guess you could argue that he fiddled with his relievers too much in the ninth - using 4 in the half inning. But he got the ball to his best relief pitcher with a 4 run and 2 men on base in the ninth. Hard to pin this one on him for me. Sometimes a good player just doesn't get it done.

2005-09-18 05:59:37
212.   Sam DC
4 run lead
2005-09-18 06:00:19
213.   Sam DC
grrr, and 211 was responding to 205 not 206
2005-09-18 06:17:07
214.   Sam DC
Coach -- looks like Post beat writer agrees with you: "The story of the night should have been Hector Carrasco, for the career reliever had turned in a splendid start, six innings of shutout ball when no such outcome could be expected. He then handed the game to the Nationals' stalwart bullpen. Mike Stanton did his job in the seventh. Gary Majewski did his job in the eighth. And the Nationals took a five-run lead into the ninth inning Saturday night against the San Diego Padres.

But then Nationals Manager Frank Robinson decided to get fancy. He took out rookie Jason Bergmann with one out and a runner on first. He took out lefty Joey Eischen with two outs and runners on first and second. He took out rookie Travis Hughes after he allowed an RBI single. And he turned to Chad Cordero, the closer, who walked a man, then gave up the most dramatic and devastating of blows -- a two-out, game-tying grand slam to Khalil Greene.

The Padres' 8-5 victory wasn't sealed until Ramon Hernandez drilled the first pitch he saw from Jon Rauch in the bottom of the 12th for a three-run home run. Yet it was Greene's heroics -- along with Robinson's mysterious moves and Cordero's collapse -- for which this game will be remembered."

The article is titled "Fancy Pitching Changes Devastate Nats lead" (note -- I wrote my comment above before seeing).

2005-09-18 09:28:41
215.   Sam DC
hmmm . . . since I'm the only one here, I'll note that that's a rather longer excerpt than I realized. Feel free to pare back Jon if you think it worth the time to do so. s
2005-09-18 09:33:19
216.   Bob Timmermann
Jon is still at home, stunned and saying to himself:

"UC Davis? UC Davis? We lost to UC Davis?"

2005-09-18 09:50:18
217.   fanerman
206 - Just wait til next season when we trade Choi and then he plays regularly and hits 30 something home runs and has a 270 batting average and all that nonsense.
2005-09-18 10:01:24
218.   Bob Timmermann
But if we trade Choi for a guy like Derrek Lee, then it will be all right.
2005-09-18 10:02:05
219.   Vishal
2005-09-18 10:11:05
220.   oldbear
This Choi talk makes me wonder what Paul Loduca has been up to?

Strange Loduca stat:

August: 45 AB's 1 walk
Sept: 42 AB's 0 walks.

For a guy with little power, nor someone that hits .300+, this is strange. I know he was a free swinger with the Dodgers, but never this bad.

2005-09-18 10:11:15
221.   D4P

Lee could fill in for Saenz in Tracy's Saenz-Phillips platoon at first in case Olmedo's body breaks down. Nothing like a righty-righty platoon at first.

2005-09-18 10:12:11
222.   Jon Weisman
216 - I just have to smile ... when's basketball season?
2005-09-18 10:14:01
223.   Bob Timmermann
November 19 at home against UC Irvine.

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