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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Astacio's Moment?
2005-09-29 08:51
by Jon Weisman

Tonight's Game

* * *

Dodger Thoughts hero Pedro Astacio has quietly become the National League West champion San Diego Padres' No. 2 starter, as David Pinto notes at Baseball Musings. Astacio has a 2.20 ERA over his last seven starts, lasting at least six innings in each of them, and might give the team a combo with No. 1 starter Jake Peavy that could pull off an upset in the first round of the NL playoffs.

It should be noted that five of those seven starts were against some of the worst offenses in baseball (Colorado, Arizona, San Francisco and twice against Washington), but Astacio did hold Philadelphia and Atlanta to three runs in 13 innings. A further warning sign is that Astacio averaged only 4.8 strikeouts per nine innings - but he also allowed only 2.4 walks and 0.4 home runs. Some of that comes from pitching in Petco Park. In any case, I'll be rooting for Astacio to be the hero, against the odds.

* * *

The Cincinnati Scenario for Jim Tracy appears to be out, as Reds interim manager Jerry Narron told the Dayton Daily News that he would accept an offer to stay on as the team's manager.

* * *

The races with four days to go:

NL Wild Card
87-71 Houston (Cubs at Astros, 5 p.m.)
85-74 Philadelphia (idle)
Houston's magic number is two; Philadelphia's magic number is seven to win the wild card outright (the Phillies must win all their remaining games and Houston must lose all of theirs), six to force a tiebreaker game.

AL East
93-65 New York (Yankees at Orioles, 4 p.m.)
92-66 Boston (Blue Jays at Red Sox, 4 p.m.)
New York's magic number is four; Boston's magic number is six to win the AL East outright, five to force a tiebreaker game (unless both teams finish ahead of the AL Central runner-up, in which case no tiebreaker game would be played. Right now, the Yankees are 9-7 against the Red Sox with three games to go against each other in Boston, and no tiebreaker scenario would involve a Red Sox sweep of the final three games, so the Yankees would win the division if the teams do tie.)

AL Central
95-63 Chicago (White Sox at Tigers, 10 a.m.)
92-66 Cleveland (Devil Rays at Indians, 4 p.m.)
Chicago's magic number is two; Cleveland's magic number is eight to win the AL Central outright (the Indians must win all their remaining games and the White Sox must lose all of theirs), seven to force a tiebreaker game (unless both teams finish ahead of the AL East runner-up, in which case no tiebreaker game would be played and Chicago would win the division based on head-to-head record with Cleveland). The White Sox and Indians play each other at Cleveland in the regular season's final three games.

AL Wild Card
(95-63 Chicago)
(93-65 New York)
92-66 Boston
92-66 Cleveland
Three of the four teams above will make the playoffs.

* * *

Grammar time! I've noticed people talking about the "Losers' Dividend" and the "Loser's Dividend," but not the "Losers Dividend," as I wrote it. It's ultimately personal preference because you can make a case for all of them, but I just wanted to make sure people knew that my way wasn't a typo, and they can feel free to be faithful to the original if they like.

Nouns can function as adjectives in cases like these - even plural nouns. (For that matter, even Cade McNowns). You can say "Cardinal football," "Jazz basketball," "Kings hockey," "blues music." You can say "Dodger baseball" or "Dodgers baseball." True, if there's only one entity involved, you would want to use the apostrophe before the "s," as in "winner's circle." And if you want to emphasize the possessive for a group, you can say "trainers' room." But the kind of dividend that is characteristic of losers can be called the "Losers Dividend."

Comments (461)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2005-09-29 09:19:44
1.   Sam DC
Vote for Pedro!

Pretty funny -- now that Bob has given them a weather report, the Yankee fans over at Bronx Banter (not enjoying a Losers' Dividend by any stretch) are hoping for a Boston rainout tonight, leading to the Red Sox playing Toronto tomorrow afternoon and then the Yankees tomorrow night. Um, I guess.

2005-09-29 09:32:06
2.   scanderbeg
I've always been confused about whether it is correct baseball etiquette to root for or against your favorite teams' divisional rival in the playoffs. Of course, I will never root for the Giants, but I want the Padres to represent the NL West well (even though we all know that the division is a complete farce(by farce, I mean a mixture of ground raw chicken and mushrooms with pistachios and truffles and onions and parsley and lots of butter and bound with eggs, typically used in stuffing, as for roasting). What should I do?

Confused in California

2005-09-29 09:34:46
3.   Bob Timmermann
All I said was that there was a 30% of showers tonight in Boston.

They aren't going to rain out that game unless an ark floats down Landsdowne. They'll wait all night and into the wee hours of the morning.

No late night game will mean anything, although it seems that the DBacks have their eyes trained on second and have set up their rotation to go after the Giants. The Giants won't have Lowry (pitching tonight) or Schmidt (who should be done) for that series.

The Padres starters this weekend should be interesting. Obviously, no Peavy or Astacio. Not even Dodger-Killer Brian Lawrence. That leaves the likes of Chan Ho Park, Tim Stauffer, and maybe a few innings from Adam Eaton to keep him sharp.

2005-09-29 09:41:25
4.   Jon Weisman
4 - Bob, I know spelling is your specialty, but does my grammar update above meet your approval?
2005-09-29 09:44:24
5.   Jon Weisman
I don't know why I put a 4 with my commebt above.

2 - Root for whoever feels right to you. There are no rules. When in doubt, just root for great baseball, regardless of the outcome.

2005-09-29 09:45:10
6.   Jon Weisman
5 - Fighting mistakes with typos.
2005-09-29 09:52:59
7.   D4P
Jon - Any chance this board will ever enable posters to edit their posts after posting them?
2005-09-29 09:56:03
8.   Cliff Corcoran
Further to the grammar lesson, the publishing publication Publishers Weekly ( - no apostrophe, and if any group of people would know if there needed to be one . . .
2005-09-29 09:58:10
9.   Jon Weisman
7 - Someday
2005-09-29 10:17:16
10.   blue22
Jon - what's your take on the Narron announcement? Obviously the Reds weren't even willing to wait another 2 weeks to find out about Tracy's status.
2005-09-29 10:17:27
11.   Bob Timmermann
In RDGCs I either said "Dodger pitcher" or "Dodgers pitcher". I was told by my copy-desk working brothers that both are correct.

As for rooting for a team in the playoffs that isn't your own, I think it all depends upon the opponent.

For me, you have to establish a baseline. That is, a team that you dislike so much that you will not root for them even if they offered you $10 million to change allegiance and the team financed cures for AIDS, Alzheimers and cancer all at once. For me that is the team in the Bronx. Such teams exist in other sports. For example in college football, it is Notre Dame. In the NBA, it is the New York Knicks. In the NHL, I have chosen the New York Rangers. The NFL position is open for auditions. It used to be the Dallas Cowboys, but there's no point in that now. In college basketball, the position used to be held by Kentucky, but I think Duke occupies it.

Then there are regional dislikes. For me that would be the SF Giants, USC in football, Stanford in basketball (no one in particular in the other pro sports.)

These teams usually occupy spot #2 in my pantheon of dishonor. But when a team like Stanford played Kentucky in the Final Four, I was a big Stanford fan that day.

I rooted hard for both the Padres and DBacks to beat the Yankees in the World Series. I was ecstatic when the Yankees lost in 2001. I was beside myself with joy.

As for other teams, my allegiances shift in a series of alliances that are borne partly out of convenience and partly out of caprice.

2005-09-29 10:17:34
12.   Jon Weisman
Despite a caught stealing, the White Sox strike for two runs in the top of first on a Carl Everett triple.
2005-09-29 10:20:34
13.   Jon Weisman
10 - They must like Narron, and they might not want to bid for Tracy. According to the article, the Reds were 27-43 before Narron was hired, 45-42 after.
2005-09-29 10:27:52
14.   Bob Timmermann
I assume that all the big games Saturday will be day games? Then I can actually watch some of them as the UCLA football game doesn't start until 7:15. And being a Pac-10 football game, it will last until 10:45 or 11.

I have to work Sunday, so it would be best if all the races are decided Saturday.

2005-09-29 10:28:34
15.   Marty
For me, the teams that come under TOTAL DISLIKE:
Notre Dame
Boston Celtics
SF Giants (I can never root for them)
NY Yankees
St. Louis Rams

Anaheim Angels of Fullerton
Oakland Raiders
L.A. Clippers

2005-09-29 10:29:17
16.   blue22
Always root against:

The rest is dependent upon intangibles like player composition, management strategies, etc. and can vary year to year (the White Sox for example).

In this years playoffs, I'll be rooting for:

Cards vs. Padres
Astros vs. Braves

Cards vs. Astros.

AL (matchups are far from being set, so in order or preference):
Red Sox
White Sox

The AL looks real ugly, especially if the Indians miss the playoffs.

BTW, 2001 was the year I was actually rooting for the Yankees due to the 9/11 factor.

2005-09-29 10:30:36
17.   Bob Timmermann

As I tell people about how I feel about the Yankees, I cheer at the end of "Pride of the Yankees".

2005-09-29 10:31:42
18.   Sam DC
Jason Grilli is no friend of Cleveland. Now 3-0 in the second.
2005-09-29 10:32:05
19.   scanderbeg
11 - Good philosophy. The only thing I would add is that you celebrate their defeats. I generally assign my malice towards teams that constantly defeat my favorite team. Here's my baseline.

Baseball: 1) Yankees 1a) Giants.

If these teams met in the Series, I would default to the Giants.

Basketball: Portland Trailblazers. I dislike them so vehemently that I have to use their full team name.

Football: Used to be the 49ers. I really hate the Ravens now.

College Basketball: North Carolina

Hockey: Detroit Red Wings

This raises another question. Which is more fun, rooting for a favorite team, or rooting against a rival?

2005-09-29 10:32:07
20.   blue22
Cards over Padres
Astros over Braves

Cards over Astros.

2005-09-29 10:32:17
21.   Bob Timmermann
The Tigers have a better record than the Dodgers.
2005-09-29 10:34:26
22.   Marty
17 That's very good. I admire the style.
2005-09-29 10:35:25
23.   Bob Timmermann
It's more fun to root for your team than against your rival. It's not fun to wait around to watch someone lose. I still enjoy Steve Finley's grand slam from last year or Gibson's homer in 1988 far more than Luis Gonzalez's bloop single off of Mariano Rivera.
2005-09-29 10:36:40
24.   Bob Timmermann
I consider myself, (self, self, self)
the pettiest man (man, man, man, man)
on the face (face, face, ace, ace) of the earth (earth, earth, rth).
2005-09-29 10:37:38
25.   blue22
I find it hard to get fired up over non-baseball rivals nowadays.

I used to despise Notre Dame, Duke, the Trailblazers, the Cowboys, the Spurs but its hard to sustain that level of negativity.

I'm a big UCLA fan, but I find it hard to root against USC (I've got soft spot for lefty QB's - really enjoyed the Cade McNown reference up there). I'm sure I'll get tired of it next year, after 3 straight Nat'l Champs, and Leinart is lining up under center for the AZ Cardinals.

2005-09-29 10:42:31
26.   Marty
I was brought up to despise UCLA and Notre Dame. I merely dislike UCLA nowadays. I'm going to enjoy the thrashing USC gives the Irish.
2005-09-29 10:44:08
27.   Bob Timmermann
My dislike of Notre Dame stems from going to Catholic elementary school and being told that I had to root for Notre Dame out of some religious allegiance.

I disliked Kentucky because my mother taught me that Adolph Rupp was a bad man.

Although I won't root for the Yankees, I think the title of "Least Likeable World Series Champion" in my lifetime would have to go to the 1986 Mets. Then it would be the 1980 Phillies.

2005-09-29 10:44:18
28.   Sam DC
Last home game of the year tonight; this is the first season I've not made it even once to Dodger stadium in a long time. I guess some would say I picked a good one to miss, but a bummer nonetheless.
2005-09-29 10:47:37
29.   Sam DC
I always root against USC, the Giants, and the Marlins. I went to college in Philadelphia, and definitely developed a distaste for the Phillies, but it mostly had to do with their absurd fans. My family went to the second game played at the new park in Philly last year and the fans loudly booed Billy Wagner because was only throwing 98 and couldn't get one over 100 on the stadium gun. So there he is blowing people away, winning a day game on a beautiful afternoon in a brand spanking new stadium, and he's getting booed. I bet he'll be happy to get to Boston next year.
2005-09-29 10:48:30
30.   Vishal
jon, i think you shoulda written it: "STOP: grammar time." :)
2005-09-29 10:48:45
31.   Marty
The 1989 version of the Athletics were pretty dislikeable. For that matter, the 72-74 version was too.
2005-09-29 10:48:56
32.   Sam DC
Going for a triple . . . Detroit got 2 on the bottom of the second but could not score. They're up again now in the third, still 3-0.
2005-09-29 10:49:40
33.   Marty
31 continued. Re, 1989 and that was against the Giants! I barely watched that series except for the earthquake coverage.
2005-09-29 10:49:50
34.   Sam DC
thrown out at third.
2005-09-29 10:53:00
35.   Sam DC
Magglio up in Det with 2 on in the third.
2005-09-29 10:55:08
36.   Bob Timmermann
I keep forgetting that Magglio Ordonez isn't on Chicago.

He's on Ozzie Guillen's "Hate List", which is about as long as Homer Simpson's "Get Even With List".

2005-09-29 10:55:29
37.   Sam DC
Ground ball to second. Getting very quiet sitting around the locker room in Cleveland.
2005-09-29 10:57:26
38.   Bob Timmermann
Cleveland still has a pretty good chance of making the playoffs. They still should be favored tonight against Tampa Bay (Sabathia vs. Fossum) and if they are playing Chicago over the weekend, the White Sox will likely be resting a few of their players.

That assumes that Ozzie Guillen is being rational.

2005-09-29 10:59:28
39.   jasonungar05
Sam, me too. First season in years. 10 years at least. For me, it has to do with changing jobs. I used to work in Irvine (which making the drive sucks from there) but now I am in Carlsbad.

Also, I went to the LIMA game last year vs the Cards. So thats my last memory and thats a good thing.

2005-09-29 11:01:12
40.   Vishal
ooh, i love these discussions:

teams i hate:

baseball: yankees, giants, angels
basketball: kings, jazz (and it's not just a divisional thing; i like the suns)
college: stanford, texas. i really don't mind USC or UCLA, and generally i root for the pac-10 schools unless they are playing cal.
pro football: new england, san francisco

i think that about covers it. anyway, i'll be rooting for the padres and indians in the playoffs. or the braves i guess, if san diego loses quickly.

2005-09-29 11:02:46
41.   mrybill
I believe the White Sox have already clinched at least a post-season, tie-breaker game, and their magic number is actually one. The worst record they can finish with is 95-67, and the Yankees and Red Sox can't BOTH finish with better records since they play each other three times (one of them will end up with at least 67 losses). If the White Sox win today, the most losses they can end up with is 66, and either the Yankees or Red Sox have to lose more.
2005-09-29 11:05:34
42.   blue22
I've still got my allegiances in every sport, if not so much hate for the rivals.

Go Niners, Lakers, UCLA, LAKings in the major sports.

And in ultimate frisbee, of course, go Gauchos of UCSB!

2005-09-29 11:07:53
43.   Jacob L
Somebody mentioned defaulting to the Giants should they ever play the Yankees in the WS. I think the better approach would be to hope that that match-up never, ever, ever happens. McCovey lining out to Kubek should, by rights, be the end of it.
2005-09-29 11:08:30
44.   D4P
You're a good man, Vishal

Teams I hate:

Baseball: Yankees, Giants, Braves
Pro Football: New England, San Francisco

2005-09-29 11:09:20
45.   D4P
It is unnatural to like the Dodgers, Lakers, AND 49ers. That's just not right.
2005-09-29 11:10:45
46.   blue22
43 - For me, my cursed matchup is Giants/Angels.

I have so little respect for the Angels and their fans (for the most part - anyone in here is ok :-) ), and some very good friends that are Giant fans, that I might not be horribly crushed if the Giants were to win.

er...probably not. I would choose not to root. Or acknowledge it's happening.

2005-09-29 11:12:54
47.   blue22
45 - I am who I am, and always have been.

Started rooting for the Niners very early on, and have never looked back.

2005-09-29 11:13:27
48.   Jacob L
45 I've struggled with the ethical question of pro football allegiances for LA fans. To me, continuing to root for the Rams or Raiders is the worst choice. Its like stalking your ex-wife. I suspect the local 9ers contingent exists because they were still a top team when the locals left. Here are two choices that I would propose as acceptable:

1. pick some random team of middling success (Saints seems like a good one)
2. stop following pro football.

2005-09-29 11:15:35
49.   blue22
48 - Have always disliked the Raiders.

The Rams were fun for about 3 1/2 weeks in 1989 with Jim Everett, Flipper Anderson, Henry Ellard, and Cleveland Gary but always went with Montana and the Niners.

2005-09-29 11:16:54
50.   Bob Timmermann
I have a friend who is a big fan of both USC and Notre Dame football. He lives in Canada.

I have tried to point out to him that he is living a logical fallacy, but he says he isn't.

Speaking of logical fallacies, and I'm sure it was dissected here, but I missed most of yesterday, but in Plaschke's column about the Angels clinching, he said wasn't about to compare the Angels to the Dodgers because there was no comparison.

Then he went and listed a bunch of comparisons.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2005-09-29 11:18:47
51.   Jacob L
46 Blue, if you don't mind, I wonder how old you are? I worry that the Dodgers have been off the national stage for so long, that we don't even have a real hatred for the Yankees anymore. If you can remember 77 and 78, and I guess, at 34, I'm about minimum age for that, the Yankee thing runs way deeper than any Angel antipathy ever will.
2005-09-29 11:20:44
52.   Marty
I can't remember much about 77 and 78, but it's not because I'm too young.
2005-09-29 11:21:12
53.   Jacob L
50 Bob, I've had friends who like both the NYY and the Red Sox. They all have one thing in common - they're women.
2005-09-29 11:22:08
54.   gcrl
pedro astacio is the "author" of the only no-hitter i ever threw in "tony larussa baseball 96" or the "mvp" line that succeeded it. that's 9 years of playing off and on. i'm really not a loser.

anyway, i do not like the giants, braves, yankees (love gehrig, though) or the white sox. i cheer for the dodgers, blue jays and red sox. my son has become quite an angels fan, so i feign delight in their victories for his innocent soul (he's only 5).

vikings, redskins, winnipeg blue bombers, la kings round out the other majors. no basketball for me - the nba has moved away from my demographic. far far away.

2005-09-29 11:22:13
55.   Adam M
50 - In case you haven't noticed, Bill Plaschke runs on pure saccharin.
2005-09-29 11:22:48
56.   Bob Timmermann
The 2002 World Series was a no brainer for me. It was the Angels all the way. There was no way I was going to enjoy a World Series with Russ Ortiz winning the clincher on a home run by Shawon Dunston. Such events would have shaken my faith in humanity. I might have gone and joined a monastery if it hadn't been for Messrs. Spezio, Erstad, and Glaus.

I really don't dislike the Angels and I think the older people here don't have any particular antipathy toward them.

2005-09-29 11:24:01
57.   gcrl
51 - no doubt. i almost cried when the 78 team lost 4 in a row after welch struck out reggie. i was only 7. 81 didn't quite make up for the pain i felt. i think the 88 season (and being at game 1) finally put me into the happy zone.
2005-09-29 11:24:10
58.   Jon Weisman
Nothing really matters to me except Stanford and the Dodgers win every game they play. After that, I just root mainly for good games.

I used to root hard for UCLA as my No. 2 because my mom went there, but now I'm a bandwagon fan. I do always root for every Pac-10 team, including USC and Cal, in non-conference games.

Everyone's coming down on Stanford - but how must Navy feel? They couldn't beat the team that couldn't beat Davis.

2005-09-29 11:24:34
59.   Bob Timmermann
I saw the Blue Bombers play when I was in Toronto.

They lost. Even more disappointing, I went to a CFL game and there were no rouges! I wanted my $10 back!

(Or as the guy who walked around Rogers Centre asking trivia questions called them, "rogues".)

2005-09-29 11:24:42
60.   Marty
I don't like the Angels, but will root for them in the playoffs. I mostly ignored them in the 60's - 90's. I kind of secretly enjoyed Autry never winning because I hated his old cowboy movies.
2005-09-29 11:25:11
61.   Jacob L
50, 55 As much ink as Plaschke spills to promote the Angels, I wonder if that column might have pissed off some Angel fans. They win the division, and the story is about the Dodgers.
2005-09-29 11:25:33
62.   Bob Timmermann
It's not patriotic to root against Navy.

Unless you went to West Point or Colorado Springs.

2005-09-29 11:25:35
63.   D4P
I agree. It never occurred to me until I started visiting message boards a year or so ago that Dodger fans thought of the Angels as anything other than "just another team."

For me, it has always been like the Dodgers, hate the Giants and Yankees, and ignore everyone else.

2005-09-29 11:26:40
64.   Sam DC
California Angels -- good
Anaheim Angels -- OK
Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim -- give me a break
2005-09-29 11:27:10
65.   Vishal
[44]- hah, thanks man.

[48]- i root for the raiders, but i feel justified because (1) they left LA when i was a kid and (2) i've lived in the east bay.

i think i like the two most antithetical teams in the NFL, the bad boy raiders, and the aw-shucks packers.

[58]- there's a difference between couldn't and didn't, if that makes you feel any better :)

2005-09-29 11:27:27
66.   Steve
If it's the White Sox, Yankees, Red Sox, and Angels in the AL Playoffs, it's gotta be the Angels.
2005-09-29 11:28:19
67.   Bob Timmermann

Yeah, I think you've hit it the nail on the head there. The Angels won the AL West. They've won 2 years in a row. They've made the playoffs 3 of the last 4 seasons. They don't need to be compared to other teams in the area. Even the laziest of baseball fans in the area could tell you which franchise has fared better in recent years.

Maybe I should send Bill Plaschke my list of 10 things the L.A. Times Sports Section needs to do to improve so I can enjoy my reading experience. Sort of like how he presented his list of non-negotiable demands to the Dodgers before the season on changes he wanted at Dodger Stadium.

2005-09-29 11:30:47
68.   Bob Timmermann
Selfishly, I would like to see a Cardinals-Angels World Series because I could likely visit with my brother who would be out with his paper covering it.

He told me he's likely writing sidebar #4 for the post-season. Last year, he was writing sidebar #7.

2005-09-29 11:33:13
69.   Steve
After that $1 billion tax bill the Times just got hit with, I don't think any changes on the sports page are going to be for the better.
2005-09-29 11:34:17
70.   Vishal
i used to be angels-agnostic for most of my life. i went to some angels games because i grew up in orange county and it was closer, but they games were never much fun. anaheim stadium was a bland, corporate-feeling place with no life, there weren't many fans who were actually interested, and the team sucked. i thought dodger stadium always had a great atmosphere with a lot of diverse, colorful fans (in every sense of the word, not just one) from different walks of life who were all rooting together for the same thing. it was a great sense of togetherness that dodger stadium evoked, rare in such a far-flung, disparate place as southern california.

i did root for the angels in '02 against the giants, but i've since grown to hate them too. the team and the fans (many, not all of course) bother me. i'd still root for them against the giants, but that's not saying much.

2005-09-29 11:36:05
71.   Vishal

1. get rid of bill plaschke. :)

he probably won't take kindly to your other suggestions if you start it off with that one, though.

2005-09-29 11:38:12
72.   Marty
That 1 billion dollar hit was courtesy of Tom Unterman. The same guy who brokered the Trbiune deal and wound up with a seat on the board. A prince of a guy.
2005-09-29 11:47:01
73.   Sam DC
CWS 4 DET 1 Top 8
2005-09-29 11:47:30
74.   Adam M
67 - as somebody who managed to go through life mostly unaware of Bill Plaschke, when did he appoint himself Keeper of the Dodger Flame? I remember a piece a few years back when he was gnashing and wailing about the teams changing the ushers' uniforms slightly. Did Kevin Malone steal his girlfriend or something?
2005-09-29 11:47:36
75.   blue22
51 - I'm just short of 30 (next month. I was born about 6 hours after Fisk waved it fair).

So yes, I'm too young to really appreciate the Yanks-Dodgers rivalry. I mostly think of the Yankees now as the Evil Empire.

As far as the Angels go, I did root for them in the '02 Series, but I've found them (and their fans, and their owner, and their announcers) to be insufferable since then.

2005-09-29 11:48:29
76.   Steve
Matthew Bender is the Jason Phillips of this story. Immediate illusory dividends; Huge long term costs compounded over time
2005-09-29 11:49:04
77.   Sam DC
i thought dodger stadium always had a great atmosphere with a lot of diverse, colorful fans (in every sense of the word, not just one) from different walks of life who were all rooting together for the same thing. it was a great sense of togetherness that dodger stadium evoked, rare in such a far-flung, disparate place as southern california.


2005-09-29 11:50:53
78.   blue22
64 - That's a good breakdown.

It can also go by team colors -

blue, red, and gold (complete with halo) - classic

periwinkle - neutral, charming enough

red - where it all went horribly wrong

2005-09-29 11:58:21
79.   Sam DC
No outs bottom of the 8th in Chicago, and Polanco gets a leadoff single. That might be all for Freddy Garcia.
2005-09-29 12:00:34
80.   Bob Timmermann
The Yankees have reacquired Mike Stanton from Washington for their weekend series against Boston.


2005-09-29 12:01:23
81.   dzzrtRatt
I suspect the local 9ers contingent exists because they were still a top team when the locals left.


My NFL allegiences have shifted around much more than baseball. I used to like the Giants, but then the Jets got Namath and I switched to them. Then I moved to California, and liked the Rams and the Jets. But then the Rams moved to OC, Georgia took over under suspicious circumstances, but the Raiders came to LA, so I liked them, especially when they won a Super Bowl. But then they moved back to Oakland, which encapsulated a string of disturbing actions by the litigious, vendetta-loving Al Davis (how can anyone forgive him for benching Marcus Allen?), so I decided I really hate them. Somewhere in the middle of all that Joe Montana, Dwight Clark, Roger Craig and Ronnie Lott captured my attention, and even though the Niners are bad and their ownership is dumb, I'm still a fan.

Baseball for me is simple. I hate the Yankees. Therefore, I rooted for the Mets, then moved to LA and rooted for the Dodgers. I didn't become an Angels fan until the arrival of the Salmon/Percival/Edmonds/Erstad team, a run they're still on although the original cast has mostly been replaced. Joy it was when the Angels came back in the division series in '02 to beat the Yanks, and then went on to beat the other Hated Ones, the Giants. So, I'll be rooting for the Angels throughout the playoffs, hoping they get a chance to knock off the Yankees and then (God won't be this nice) sweep the Most Hated Ones, the Padres in the World Series, in a fashion so humiliating the entire team is induced to jump off a cliff in Torrey Pines.

2005-09-29 12:04:20
82.   Sam DC
80 Think he went to the Sox: "The Washington Nationals today acquired right-handed pitchers Rhys Taylor and Yader Peralta from the Boston Red Sox in exchange for left-handed pitcher Mike Stanton. Nationals Vice President and General Manager Jim Bowden made the announcement."

article says he would not be available should Boston go to the playoffs. (or go to's nationals page)

2005-09-29 12:06:04
83.   Sam DC
Magglio doubles in a run; now 4-2 with one out bottom 8th.
2005-09-29 12:07:22
84.   TerryAustin
I rooted for that '02 Angels team for lack of a better alternative. I do not think I can root for them again.

The Yankees in general are appalling, but I found it easy to appreciate their teams of the mid to late 90s.

Other teams I despise: Cubs, Giants, Diamondbacks, Mets, and -- just because of Joe Morgan -- the Reds. Come to think of it, I'm not crazy about the Red Sox, either.

2005-09-29 12:14:31
85.   Mick
I have been fortunate enough (OK, I'm old enough) to have seen the Dodgers play at the Coliseum and the LA Angels play at Chavez Ravine - they just couldn't call it Dodger Stadium, which, of course, it is. I still feel about the Yankees they way I did when Sandy Koufax lept off the mound after completing a four game sweep. I still feel the same about the Giants as I did when the only Dodger games televised during the season were those from Candlestick Park, in B&W, on channel 11, and when they won the 1962 playoffs against the Dodgers. May both teams burn in hell. Were they to ever play again in a World Series, I'd just turn everything off, declare the season a mistrial and go golfing. Which is what I do if the Braves play the Yankees. I hate the Braves only slightly less than I hate the Giants - but I'm not sure it's a measurable difference. As for the Angels, well, no matter what they do, they'll always be just the Angels.

I hope the Dodgers can get back some of their former shine. Everytime I see Mike Edwards wearing number 25, I wish Frank Howard would show up, rip the number of Edwards' back, and see how far he (Frank) coud shotput him (Edwards).

2005-09-29 12:18:14
86.   Sam DC
Well, I hope someone warned the Red Sox to be very careful during Stanton's first appearance. In his first game for the Nationals this season, he came in with the bases loaded and gave up a walk off balk before throwing a single pitch.
2005-09-29 12:18:43
87.   Marty
For some reason Frank Howard picked Monrovia to live in (at least for awhile) when he was on the Dodgers. He was around the corner from my house. He was a very big man. Especially through an 8-year-old's eyes.
2005-09-29 12:21:02
88.   Adam M
85 - I'm old enough to remember seeing cheerleaders at the Big A. ;) Man, that was weird.
2005-09-29 12:22:37
89.   Adam M
87 - Frank Howard used to be the first-case coach for the M's when they played in the Kingdome, and at 60-odd years of age looked bigger and stronger than anyone else in uniform. My stepdad remembers seeing him hit a ball out of the Coliseum.
2005-09-29 12:25:06
90.   Sam DC
tying run at the plate in the bottom of the ninth in detroit -- no outs.
2005-09-29 12:30:01
91.   Sam DC
2 outs now in Detroit, 2 on, Polanco up.
2005-09-29 12:30:14
92.   Sam DC
Polanco out.
2005-09-29 12:30:34
93.   Vishal
...and it's over. white sox magic # is 1.
2005-09-29 12:31:31
94.   Marty
Remember the "Embraceable Ewes" Ram cheerleaders at the stadium? They were paraded into the newsroom at the Glendale paper I was working at the first year of their existance. That was a red-letter day.
2005-09-29 12:45:17
95.   LAT
You guys are way too mature and well reasoned. The teams I hate are determined by the people I know. For example, there was a guy in law school I coundn't stand who was a big Michigan fan. So naturally I vocally took up rooting against Michigan. Loved to piss him off. To this day I hate Michigan for that reason.

Otherwise its Notre Dame and any team from Texas (except, perhaps Rice). Second tier dislikes include Yankees and Raiders.

2005-09-29 12:49:53
96.   Sam DC
I don't really get this Stanton deal. The Nationals get 2 young pitchers and all they give up is 3 days of Mike Stanton? Do they lose a draft pick they would have gotten if he'd signed somewhere else next year?

And why don't deals like this happen more -- or do they? Sure, it's a drag getting a piece and then not being able to bring it into the postseason, but there are always teams heading into a close series who could use an extra piece and other teams who are eliminated and are going to lose players anyway. Could the Red Sox have gone after AJ Burnett or Jeff Weaver to start one game, if they'd been willing to give up enough minor league talent to compensate the other team for losing the draft pick, right to resign through arbitration? Am I just revealing the limts of my understanding of the issues?

2005-09-29 12:51:10
97.   Bob Timmermann
Ahh, so the Red Sox have Stanton? Go figure? Is this part of some bizarre prisoner exchange they have with their discarded players? Will there be an Embree-Stanton duel for the AL East?
2005-09-29 12:58:03
98.   Steve
The teams I hate are determined by the people I know.

This is why I hate the Sacramento Kings.

2005-09-29 12:59:53
99.   Bob Timmermann
In Steve Henson's story in today's time, he mentioned that the 1892 Dodgers hold the franchise record for most steals in a season with 409.

However, in those days you got credit for a stolen base on any play where a runner took an extra base. So if you went from 1st to third on a single, you got credit for a stolen base.

2005-09-29 13:06:38
100.   Adam M
Dislikes for me generally have little to do with the teams and everything to do with the fans:

* Post-Nike Oregon: most obnoxious fans in Pac-10, retina-charringly ugly uniforms, and those stupid billboards a few years ago. Inferiority complex, anyone? I grew up in Washington, and never disliked UofO in the slightest until Nike's weird Type-A snobbery took over.
* Whichever punk Cal/Stanford/UO/etc. team thinks this is their year to finally win the Rose Bowl.
* Honorable mention: USC - Mostly because of "my maid went to UCLA," and "Daaaah! Dah-duh dah-dah duh dah-duh!" And one of their alumni put Orange County into bankruptcy.
* Like all good Americans, I despise the weepy sanctimony of Coach K and the Duke basketball program.

* Yankees: overrated stadium, overrated fans, overrated uniforms, overrated team
* Red Sox: presumably you're as obsessed with the Sox as they are, right?
* Giants: see "Sox, Red." SF really is the Boston of the East.

* No comment, but let's just say removable car flags have a lot to do with it.

* Rams: The Ego that Inhabits Mike Martz has singlehandedly turned my favorite team into my least favorite in roughly 3 years.
* Broncos: Romanowski + Barking "Genius" Mike Shanahan

* Los Angeles Mighty Ducks of Anaheim: crap team that should never have existed created via crap idea playing under crap name in crap uniforms at a crap stadium that, while admittedly nice, looks more like a convention center than a hockey forum. These guys are the Flying Dutchman of professional sports. Move them to Winnipeg /Hamilton/Portland/Quebec/Seattle/Anywhere and put them out of their misery already.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2005-09-29 13:08:00
101.   dzzrtRatt
Sure, it's a drag getting a piece and then not being able to bring it into the postseason...

But won't the Sox be able to use Stanton if they can say he's replacing a disabled player? I am pretty sure that's happened in the past, where a post-season roster has gotten a player who was a September call-up or post Aug. 30th trade because of an injury.

2005-09-29 13:08:13
102.   Penarol1916
Wow, you guys really limit your hatred. I, for instance, hate the entire ACC, starting with Duke, Florida State, and Boston College, primarily because of people I know and living in ACC territory and being subjected to their broadcasts. In fact, most of my hatred is for teams in the area I live in, I doubt I would hate the Cubs so much if I didn't live in Chicago and hear about how great it is to go to Wrigley and get tanked. In 1985 I lived in Kansas City and rooted for the Cardinals in the series even after what they did to the Dodgers that year.
2005-09-29 13:08:23
103.   Peanuts in My Shoes
72 Anybody have more info on the Times fine? First I've heard of it, and I'm interested as I used to do media relations for RCG.
2005-09-29 13:09:45
104.   dzzrtRatt
SF really is the Boston of the East.

Very true (though I think you meant 'of the West.' And San Diego is the west's Baltimore.

2005-09-29 13:11:31
105.   Bob Timmermann
The 1941 Dodgers won the pennant despite stealing just 36 bases all season, which I believe is the franchise low for a full season. They won 100 games. Those Dodgers led the NL in walks and home runs.

They were second in the NL in runs allowed also and third lowest in walks given out.

Of the Dodgers eight regular starters that year, all but one walked more than he struck out. The exception was Dolph Camilli who had 104 walks and 115 strikeouts (and 34 home runs).

Pee Wee Reese led the team in steals with 10.

That team seemed very Moneyball-ish.

2005-09-29 13:12:07
106.   dzzrtRatt
103 Here's a short & sweet summary, with a link to the original item:

To pay it, they're going to sell bonds. Call your broker.

2005-09-29 13:13:07
107.   Bob Timmermann
Stanton wouldn't be eligible even if there were an injury because you have to be in the organization as of August 31.
2005-09-29 13:14:44
108.   D4P
Adam M -

Having grown up in Eugene and gotten undergrad and grad degrees from UofO, I have to agree with you on the Nike-dom of the football program. It has changed for the worst.

I also agree with you on the Rams (my favorite team) and Martz (the worst coach in the history of organized sports). He has single-handedly destroyed what should have been a dynasty.

2005-09-29 13:17:24
109.   dzzrtRatt
Does no one in St. Louis blame Georgia for anything bad with the Rams? What's wrong with them?
2005-09-29 13:18:00
110.   Peanuts in My Shoes
Thanks, Ratt
2005-09-29 13:19:14
111.   D4P
Yes, Georgia is horrible, but the Rams nevertheless won a Super Bowl under her ownership and then subsequently self-imploded. I attribute the implosion to Martz.
2005-09-29 13:20:29
112.   Marty
Nice piece over at Baseball Analysts by Jeff Shaw of USS Mariner.
2005-09-29 13:21:57
113.   Bob Timmermann
I'd read it, but I'm afraid I would have to give up Paul Konerko to read it.
2005-09-29 13:25:16
114.   Sam DC
113 LOL.
2005-09-29 13:26:32
115.   Adam M
108 - How egomaniacal a coach do you have to be to not give the ball to Marshall freaking Faulk? "Thank you, Obi Wan, but instead of the lightsaber, I'l be using this device I've improvised from a flashlight, a cell phone and two bottles of Febreze."

Plus, if Martz had just ran Faulk more in the 2001 Super Bowl, we would probably have been spared the canonization of Bill Belichick and Tom "Trent Dilfer 2.0" Brady. The Pats probably would have dumped Brady & Belichick, thrown a mint at Parcells, and gone back to Bledsoe.

2005-09-29 13:28:03
116.   Bob Timmermann
As the owner of an old and often incontinent cat, I can tell you that Febreeze has magical powers.
2005-09-29 13:28:36
117.   Jacob L
Who are these "Rams" everyone is referring to?
2005-09-29 13:29:51
118.   King of the Hobos
The Royals finally signed Gordon. $4 mil minor league deal
2005-09-29 13:31:42
119.   D4P
Amen. A high school coach (and a bad one at that) could have guided the Rams to a victory over the Pats. Martz wasn't content to win; he wanted to win big. The only way they lose that game is to do exactly what Martz did (and continues to do).
2005-09-29 13:32:20
120.   Bob Timmermann

Tom Gordon? He decided to leave the Yankees at this crucial time to return to the organization that gave him his start!
God bless that man!


2005-09-29 13:32:29
121.   das411
115 - Seriously, how have the Patriots not made anybody's list yet??

As the only Philly fan here, it seems, I'll spare everybody a mile-long list and just point out one thing: nobody else here hates their hometown team(s) as much as we do.


2005-09-29 13:37:01
122.   Bob Timmermann
The Angels JVs lead the Atheltics JVs, 5-0.
2005-09-29 13:39:39
123.   Sam DC
Anyone want a left fielder (for a year): "One possibility will be for Melvin to dangle slugger Carlos Lee, who has one year at $8.5 million left on his contract, as trade bait over the winter rather than give him a huge extension."
2005-09-29 13:40:28
124.   Adam M
121 - Is it true a lot of Philly fans dislike Bobby Abreu? Why on Earth would this be? I cannot fathom this. The guy has done nothing but rake for years.
2005-09-29 13:43:58
125.   Adam M
123 - Sign me up, as long as he slugs with character.

On that note, some people on ussmariner are expressing a desire to pickup Milton Bradley. Their current CF is a slick-fielding youngster who from his stats appears to swing an extension cord instead of a bat. Also, their GM is a respected "baseball guy" and the local media is immune to "character," so Milton's baggage seems to weigh a lot less.

2005-09-29 13:44:39
126.   popup
Remembering Sandy:

Sandy Koufax made his second major league apperance on June 29, 1955 against the New York Giants in a game at Ebbets Field. Pitchong in relief, Sandy entered the game in the 9th inning with the Dodgers trailing 6-0.

Sandy loaded the bases with no outs and then proceeded to pitch out of trouble. Sandy retired Don Mueller on a short fly ball to left, Hank Thompson on a pop up to Jackie Robinson and Gail Harris on a grounder to Pee Wee Reese.

The Dodgers scored a run in the 9th to avert the shutout. Sandy gave up 2 hits and 1 walk in his one inning of work, stranding all three runners he allowed to reach base.

Thanks to Koufax, written by Sandy and Ed Linn and retrosheet.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-09-29 13:44:44
127.   dzzrtRatt
I just noticed that in last night's Red Sox/Toronto game, with the Sox down by five runs and a man on first in the 7th, MVP candidate David Ortiz, he of the 46 home runs and 144 RBIs--bunted. And he bunted into a force play.

And Francona works for a sabre-guy.

2005-09-29 13:46:24
128.   blue22
124 - I think Philly (and das411 can chime in) has to make some serious decisions this offseason. They have a lot of money tied up between Rollins, Abreu, Burrell, Lieberthal, Lieber, and of course Thome.

I think the best player to trade would be Abreu. He makes a ton of money, isn't the most popular guy in Philly, and has the highest relative trade value.

Not to mention they're going to have to pay someone a pretty penny to take Thome off their hands to clear a path for Ryan Howard.

2005-09-29 13:46:52
129.   Icaros
Martz's refusal to adjust his offensive gameplan in the Superbowl is the reason the Rams lost to the Partiots.

I think he has a great mind for offense, but he seems to need a head coach to reel him in. I am so tired of watching his stupid replay challenges and wasted timeouts. He has also put together the most horribly retarded special teams unit in the history of modern football.

The Rams have been like the Braves lately, consistent playoff appearances and division crowns (at least by today's NFL standards), a couple of Superbowls, but only one title to show for it.

Still, just because I may not like or agree with Martz, I could never root against the team.

2005-09-29 13:48:02
130.   oldbear
111. How did the Rams 'self-implode"??? I'm a Rams fan we've been to the playoffs like 5 of 6 seasons I believe since Martz took over.

In the salary cap era, its tough to maintain that level of competitiveness, and the Rams have. Look whats happend to the NY GIants, Ravens, Titans, Panthers, Bucs....

Yeah we shoudl have won 2 Super Bowls instead of just 1, but I dont think we were ever a real 'dynasty'...

In 2000, Warner got hurt and missed 4-5 games. We lost at the Saints when Kurt turned the ball over 4-5 times, and Az Hakim dropped a punt. How can you blame Martz for that?

In 2002, Warner was just awful. Faulk started showing his age. Team finished 7-9.

In 2003, Martz got a pretty average Rams team a 12-4 record. It was also Bulger's 1st year as the bonafide starter. That Carolina Panther game was just a fluky win for the Panthers. Double OT.. Jeff Wilkins, who had been money all season, missed a potential GW field goal in OT. Now Martz coudl have gone for the win in regulation but played it safe. Still the Panther scored 1 of their TD's on a fumble recovery for a TD, and had some other fluke plays. I dont think coaching cost the Rams this game..

In 2004, againt Bulger went down. The offensive line sucked. It was Steven Jax rookie year. Still managed to win a road playoff game.

I like Martz. I think he's a big positive for the Rams. I dont think we were ever a 'dynasty". The league started to catch up to the Rams scheme. Play deep cover 2, dont let the Rams get vertical on you. It was the TB Bucs game plan and the whole league started adopting it. That, in addition to the aging of once great starters like Warner, Faulk, Timmerman, Nutten on the line, and it was just an overall erosion of talent.

Thats what happens when you draft in the bottom of the rounds each year.

Its why the NFL is the best sport there is. Every season is different. Every team has a chance.

2005-09-29 13:48:22
131.   blue22
stupid replay challenges

Like when he challenged (and lost) the opening kickoff 2 weeks ago?

2005-09-29 13:50:11
132.   D4P
Couldn't agree more. I can't believe Martz hasn't been canned yet. Very frustrating.
2005-09-29 13:50:24
133.   blue22
130 - He's like Tracy. The team wins in spite of him, yet he gets the credit.

I do give them credit for a nice 5 year run which, in the NFL, is impressive.

2005-09-29 13:53:57
134.   Steve
117 -- What is this "football?"
2005-09-29 13:56:20
135.   blue22
134 - Spoken like a true LA resident. You sure you're not from around here?
2005-09-29 13:58:05
136.   Icaros
130 I don't blame Martz for everything, and I agree with you about the erosion of talent.
2005-09-29 13:59:26
137.   Steve
135 -- But I am from around here. I was, nominally, raised a Rams fan. I remember Flipper Anderson.
2005-09-29 14:00:36
138.   oldbear
133. How can the team win inspite of him when he calls the plays?

In football, you actually need to run plays and exploit matchups. Martz has done that.

Like I said, to go from the Warner, Faulk, Bruce team to the Bulger, Jackson, Holt, Curtis, McDonald team without a drop off is a good feat.

We've also lost some good players like London Fletcher, Dre Bly, Wistrom due to the salary cap.

Martz isnt a perfect coach, but he's one of the best at developing QB's. And to me, thats probably the most important position on the football field. I dont think the Rams win 'inspite of him', bc that would make one assume that the Rams have just an abundance of talent that other teams dont. I disagree. Our offense is still good, but the special teams and defense has been terrible. No matter whom was coaching.

To go from Warner to Bulger to probably Harvard in the next few years should keep the Rams train rolling.

People forget that the Rams BARELY beat the Bucs, AND TITANS during the super bowl run. If we lose just one of those close ones, like we did during the 2nd super bowl loss, no one is even complaing about losing out on a potential 'dynasty'.

Playoff football always comes down to a few plays here and there. During the 1999, those plays went the Rams way. In 00, 01, and 03 they went against us. Thats football. When everyone has the same level of money to spend on talent, there isnt much of a difference talent wise in the league.

2005-09-29 14:02:37
139.   Marty
The Rams are dead to me.
2005-09-29 14:02:38
140.   Jacob L
Not to beat a dead horse, or give anybody a hard time, but I can't believe people here are Ram fans. I've put with up with a lot of crap from the Dodgers over the years, but if they ever left town, that's it. We'd be done. I might even go all Roger Kahn on you and carry a grudge for fifty year, barely countenance the the mentioning of their name.

On the other hand, it is only football.

2005-09-29 14:03:04
141.   Sam DC
There's really only one football question of any consequence in my mind: Where does He Hate Me play now?
2005-09-29 14:06:10
142.   Adam M
141 - Carolina Panthers. And they love he, apparently.
2005-09-29 14:07:15
143.   oldbear
Icaros and DP4 you guys should check out I think its the best Rams messageboard out there, especially since the one on the Post-Dispatch isnt moderated well, and the official one at the Rams website shut down.

If Barron plays well this week, I think the Rams might go on a little win streak. I also liked how Archuleta has played this year. Maybe its due to his playmate GF Jennifer Walcott????

2005-09-29 14:08:34
144.   Sam DC
141 Thx -- I'm very happy for them.
2005-09-29 14:09:55
145.   King of the Hobos
Laroche is one of the many AFL prospects writing player journals. His first includes this quote, sure to make chemist Dodger fans pee thier pants

"Not only were there a lot of prospects, but we got along really well and we had great team chemistry. We hung out together on the field and off the field. We're all great friends. In the clubhouse, we were always joking around together. It's by far the best team I've ever had the chance to play for. It was incredible going out every day with that group of guys." It's at for the tinyurl impaired

2005-09-29 14:11:27
146.   Icaros
I was never that mad about the Rams leaving because I lived in the Bay Area so long, so I was used to not hearing anything about them anyway. When I moved back to LA, they left the next year.

I was always disappointed that nobody seemed to care or try to do anything to keep the Rams. I remember when the Giants were threatening to move to Florida under similar circumstances, and SF went out of it's way to keep that from happening.

As long as they're called the Rams, they'll be my team, even if they move to Istanbul.

2005-09-29 14:13:02
147.   King of the Hobos
145 Another interesting part:

"A lot of people talk about him moving to third someday. Me and Guzy are always kidding around about that stuff. I'm always telling him he's going to take my position. It's really out of our control. We just go out and play where they tell us to play. Whenever they want to move us up, they'll do it. There's nothing we can do about it."

2005-09-29 14:16:57
148.   Jacob L
146 Istanbul - great football town. What are they offering in a stadium deal?
2005-09-29 14:19:12
149.   Steve
If he hits the ball, he can say the moon is made of green cheese.
2005-09-29 14:19:20
150.   Bob Timmermann
I think the NFL wants the team to be called the Constantinople Rams, but apparently that's nobody's business but the Turks.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2005-09-29 14:20:51
151.   Steve
And with due respect, I like Joel the Destroyer better than "Guzy." That's just me.
2005-09-29 14:22:13
152.   Bob Timmermann
Another problem with placing an NFL team in Istanbul is that in NFL parlance, a player getting cut during training camp is visited by the mythical "Turk".

So what would a Turkish team use? Would it be "The American"?

2005-09-29 14:24:05
153.   Marty
The Armenian?
2005-09-29 14:24:33
154.   Jacob L
150 Another rimshot for Bob. Thanks for putting that song in my head.
2005-09-29 14:24:39
155.   das411
124 , 128 - Oh yes. Yes yes yes.

The first three paragraphs here are the best explanation I've seen of the general Philly attitude towards Abreu:

My theory is as follows: The reason the rest of the league is so big on him, and Web-inclined fans like you guys, is because you don't watch him play, in the field, every day. There is a big difference between reading about his 2-for-4s and 1-for-3s with a walk and a steal every day, and seeing the two hits are garbage time singles (or come with nobody on base, more on this later) and the steal was when Thome or Howard were at bat and led to an intentional walk.

In many ways, he is the ideal SABR player. Always puts up .300-30-100, gives you 140+ games every year, 25-35 steals, and his defensive stats are good. What's the problem?

The problem is, and my link explains this better than I can, the way his game is totally at odds with the ideal Philly player. Our 1993 team was a group of the nastiest, craziest slimeballs ever, and we loved them. Have you ever even seen Abreu get his uniform dirty?

Adam says "The guy has done nothing but rake for years." This is true in more ways than one. Abreu joined the team in the infamous trade for Kevin Stocker, and as a result never really grew on the fans as a homegrown player the way Burrell, Utley, Howard and Rollins have. He also wasn't a big acquisition when we brought him in, a la Thome, Wagner, or even Millwood/Milton/Lieber. Abreu has always just sort of been there, solidly good but never great the way Thome was in 2003 or, you could argue, Utley this year.

I'll answer Blue22's post in a second, just wanna break this up a little.

2005-09-29 14:27:58
156.   gcrl
i stopped caring about the rams when ferragamo left and dieter brock came down from the hinterlands.

124 - i think the phillie phans are down on abreu because all he does is rake. they feel he doesn't sacrifice the body in the field, or so i've been told. aren't philadelphia fans the ones that booed santa claus?

i am an la kings fan, but i lived in oc when the ducks came around, and bought a share of season tix. went to the opener and sat through the "ice man" production. worse thant the rob lowe/snow white oscar production. even the cheerleaders on skates were better. this just cemented my hatred of the ducks.

2005-09-29 14:30:56
157.   Jacob L
155 That all sounds a lot like how I used to feel about Sheffield. I said stuff like "all his homers come in the first inning," "when you need a hit, he pops up," and, my favorite, "he's a bad fielder."

In truth, he may have been a world class jerk, but in order to argue that he shouldn't be on the team, I basically pulled stuff out of a barrell. The guy put a lot of runs on the scoreboard. Period.

2005-09-29 14:32:22
158.   Bob Timmermann
I think the Ducks new owner is getting away from that stuff. They won't be the Ducks next year. I don't even think Ducks is on the sweaters this year. They are just "Anaheim".

They want to market themselves as being an Orange County team. Which isn't a bad idea considering the troubled state of the NHL.

2005-09-29 14:36:17
159.   Bob Timmermann
There are few batters whom I find more fearsome than Gary Sheffield. Even at this stage of his career.

I still remember him in a game against Houston and he was sent up to pinch hit against Billy Wagner. He had his bat waggling. My friend asked me, "How can he hit a fastball if he's doing that?"
I told her to just wait.

And Sheffield got a fastball he wanted and ripped a single that gave the Dodgers a lead.

I wonder why the Lo Duca/Mota for Penny/Choi trade is considered to be so horrible while the Piazza/Zeile for Sheffield/Bonilla/Eisenreich trade seems to have passed in to the hazy parts of everyone's memory?

2005-09-29 14:42:34
160.   Steve
Please God let us get Abreu.
2005-09-29 14:45:42
161.   Bob Timmermann
I think Abreu needs to have his character approved by Plaschke first. I'm certain something is lacking. If he had good character, wouldn't the Phillies had gone to the playoffs?

And besides, Kevin Stocker had more character.

2005-09-29 14:46:19
162.   Icaros
Abreu would be well-liked in LA, as are most Latin ballplayers.

Drew/Kent/Abreu middle of order would be nice.

2005-09-29 14:46:23
163.   blue22
159 - Mostly time, I think.

Amazing to think that Piazza has now spent more time in a Mets uni than a Dodgers.

2005-09-29 14:47:58
164.   das411
128 Rant, part 2:

There is more to it than this, but I'll address Blue22's point now. IF Ed Wade is kept on for another year, which will probably happen since ownership sees this as a successful season, then Abreu stays. If Wade is fired, I think Abreu is likely to be dealt. The two are tied so closely together since Abreu is the one deal nobody can disagree Wade got the better end of, similar to Kazmir for Zambrano in Tampa.

With that said, I think Abreu's personality and lack of connection with the fans, embodies the entire Ed Wade era. Philly fans are sick of a team that doesn't look like they care about results. That's why we ran Travis Lee out of town. In addition, management has been unwilling to make that one bold deal to pick a year and go all-out to win.

Look at what the Phils have given up since Wade came along: Scott Rolen, Curt Schilling, Johnny Estrada, Adam Eaton, Carlos Silva, and Marlon Byrd. What do we have to show for these? Well, Urbina for Polanco but he will walk, Padilla is the only leftover from the Schilling deal, and...Endy Chavez?

What I (and I think most Philly fans) want to see is a quick, 1-2 year rebuild around a core of Burrell, Utley, Howard, Madson, and Myers. Everybody else can go. The Indians have done it this year, the Dodgers are very close, a quick turnaround CAN be done.

But Ed Wade is not the man to do it. The biggest holes on this team are entirely of his doing:

3B: Waited too long to trade Rolen, then signed a rapidly aging David Bell to bring in some "playoff experience". The Cards have made the playoffs 3 of the 4 years since, while we are stuck on 86-76

C: Not only did he trade Estrada to Atlanta, where he has become an All-star and helped further that infernal streak, Wade has also become addicted to washed-up veterans. He can't dump Lieberthal (who I think is a FA after this season...?), he has picked up Pratt and Kelly Stinnett and Gary Bennett and Tom Prince etc etc to fill in during the inevitable injury to #24.

P: How many young arms has Wade just thrown away? The trades for just Wagner, Lidle, and Milton cost us FIVE younger, cheaper arms, one of which has already turned out to have the lowest walk/K rate..ever?

We have had a top-5 payroll the last 3 seasons and yet still cannot win when it counts. The best thing for this team would be a trade like what I proposed earlier this season: Abreu for young 3B, C, and/or P prospects. I would go after Barton first, but I think the Dodgers match up well too. Nate disagrees :)

But shipping out Abreu and Thome for younger, cheaper players and building around the core that is mostly already here (add Cole Hamels and Shane Victorino to that list) would produce a team the fans can relate to, would be fun to watch, and most importantly can make that big late season deal to put us over the top.

I envy you guys, at least your GM knows where he is taking the team and has moved to act on it. I hope we bring somebody in as soon as possible to do the same, before it is too late.

Thanks to

And sorry but that rant was about 8 years in the making, I kept it as short (and as clean) as I could :-D

2005-09-29 14:48:25
165.   Steve
And Abreu would save McCourt laundry charges.
2005-09-29 14:50:23
166.   LAT
Oh yeah, in my list of teams that I hate; include any team Gary Sheffield is on. Anyone who threatens not to play hard in order to renegotiate a contract is a total POS.
2005-09-29 14:50:47
167.   Steve
I'm assuming Bobby Abreu's dry cleaning is point #500 on, because there's plenty there. Just the two trades he made with for Chavez and Urbina alone were legendarily bad.
2005-09-29 14:51:04
168.   Jacob L
159 Seems to have passed into the hazy part of your memory. We also got Charles Johnson. And a PTBNL as I recall. Hmm, maybe's its in the hazy part of my memory, too.

Actually, I think people still complain about that trade a lot. One of the biggest factors in the LoDuca trade backlash was that people felt like they were re-living Piazza. A huge, and somewhat misapplied complement to LoDuca.

A big mitigating factor for me is that Bonilla, as a Dodger, started the only triple play I've seen in person.

2005-09-29 14:52:48
169.   Bob Timmermann
The NY Times ran a graphic of Piazza's "best" season which was supposed to be 1999.

Although he was better in 1997 with the Dodgers. He had an OPS+ that year of 186! His OPS was 1070.

Piazza has the highest single season OPS+ of any Dodger. EVER. Back to 1884. Interestingly, the higest OPS+ for a career by any Dodger is 161 by Sheffield. Piazza's career was 160.

I hate Larry Walker for robbing Piazza of the MVP in 1997.

2005-09-29 14:57:18
170.   gcrl
that's larry walk-AIR for the french canadian readers.
2005-09-29 15:01:50
171.   jasonungar05
Well, back to back 40 bomb 100 RBI years is making me hate what I feel was the worst trade in recent dodger times. I know I am a minority in this.

Konerko for Jeff Shaw.

2005-09-29 15:03:43
172.   das411
162 - I would pay good money to see an outfield of Drew, Bradley, and Abreu.

It would look an awful lot like the Giants did for about six innings last night.

159 - Did Sheffield ever hit more homers in a meaningless Home Run Derby than he had in an entire SEASON beforehand, then hit what, 2 in the next month after?

The attitude you find in a Sheffield, a Bonds, even a Milton Bradley is what a lot of fans out there respond to, and what can separate the truly elite (and feared) players from those who just put up good numbers.

When (Phillies again, sorry) Pat Burrell had his two years from hell, he was throwing helmets all over the place and took extra BP until he worked his way through it. Abreu has never done anything remotely like this, as far as we know.

And don't even think about batting him leadoff. OK. Seriously gonna go do hw now.

2005-09-29 15:03:48
173.   Steve
171 -- There is no way you are a minority in that.
2005-09-29 15:04:05
174.   Adam M
171 - Worst Dodger trade ever? Is this even a debate? I...


2005-09-29 15:04:44
175.   Jacob L
Mr.Ungar, Delino DeShields for you on line 2.
2005-09-29 15:06:13
176.   Marty
I was ok with the Konerko trade at the time. I thought he was the reincarnation of Franklin Stubbs.
2005-09-29 15:06:38
177.   Steve
174 -- Is that recent times?
2005-09-29 15:06:47
178.   das411
167 - The Urbina trade opened a spot for Utley since Charlie Manuel refused to sit Bell for Polanco. I think that turned out well.

Until Manuel ran our three decent relievers into the ground, Felipe Alou-style.

2005-09-29 15:07:35
179.   Icaros
177 To me it never happened. It just didn't.
2005-09-29 15:12:01
180.   D4P

Delino for Pedro

(or "D4P" if you prefer)

2005-09-29 15:12:16
181.   jasonungar05
well, my reason for hating the konerko for shaw deal more was the thought I had about it at the time, not so much now in retrospect.

I was excited to get Delino, even though he tanked so bad that my excitment went to hatred like the rest of us, but at the time, a middle relife arm (a damn good one) for a starting all star 2b with alot of speed didn't seem so wrong.

A light tossing closer at the break for one of our top young prospect when we were at least 5 games out of the race seemed desperate and dumb.

2005-09-29 15:12:20
182.   Steve
Ed Wade hired Charlie Manuel! Sit Bell, play Polanco, and don't trade your best chit for a washed-up middle reliever! GMs "fixing" the problems of their idiot managers don't get a lot of sympathy around these parts.
2005-09-29 15:13:13
183.   Jacob L
My dad is a huge Cubs fan, and he's got one of those Crown Books bargain basement coffe table things on the Cubs that he keeps in the bathroom. Book came out in the late 80s. Every time I'm over to visit, I turn to a photo of Jamie Moyer, the caption of which says (paraphrasing), "Promising left hander Jamie Moyer had a good year for the Cubs in 8x. He was traded, along with Raphael Palmeiro, to Texas. The Cubs, though, got Mitch Williams and Paul Kilgus in the deal, so the trade looks pretty good so far."
2005-09-29 15:13:40
184.   Steve
D4P was the worst trade of all time if that was the time frame considered. I hated DeShields at the time, for all the reasons you can probably guess.
2005-09-29 15:17:10
185.   Jon Weisman
184 - I was dating a girl from Delaware during Delino's first season with the Dodgers. Delightful Delino DeShields from Delaware. There was a bond ... the bond faded.
2005-09-29 15:20:20
186.   Bob Timmermann
I believe Jon's post is false on its face because I am convinced that the state of Delaware does not exist and was created just for tax purposes.

There is no Delaware.

2005-09-29 15:20:23
187.   Steve
Since we discussed football briefly, I will note that Skip Bayless's latest advocates getting rid of kickers because (get this) they have no "heart" or "soul." No. Really.
2005-09-29 15:21:45
188.   Adam M
186 - George Thorogood's band destroyed an imaginary state? Bitchin'!
2005-09-29 15:22:08
189.   D4P
My biggest problem with them is the single-bar face mask.
2005-09-29 15:23:53
190.   Marty
Courtesy of

Morgan has this to say about the upcoming Red Sox/Yankees series

Besides the pitching, the other X-factor is the hitting.


2005-09-29 15:24:11
191.   Steelyeri
Didn't QBs wear those as well? Now they just wear a skirt.
2005-09-29 15:25:30
192.   Vishal
[100] - hah, that reminds me, i used to absolutely despise the broncos and cowboys. the broncos because i hate john elway and the cowboys because they were one of the biggest and most annoying and arrogant-seeming bandwagon teams ever. now they suck and i don't care one way or the other.
2005-09-29 15:26:52
193.   Jacob L
187 A seeming contradiction with the oft-practiced strategy of calling a time-out to "freeze" the kicker. If America's football fields are, in fact, plagued with the kicking automoton/zombies, then it may be too late to just "get rid of them." Head for the shelters.
2005-09-29 15:27:37
194.   Jon Weisman
Shawn Chacon

2004 w/COL 63 IP, 71 H, 52 BB, 52 K, 7.11 ERA
2005 w/COL 73 IP, 69 H, 36 BB, 39 K, 4.09 ERA
2005 w/NYY 78 IP, 63 H, 30 BB, 40 K, 2.76 ERA

2005-09-29 15:28:37
195.   Steve
Apparently, Kibbles & Bits makes one lose his hair.

2005-09-29 15:29:09
196.   Marty
194 The humidity of New York seems to agree with him.
2005-09-29 15:30:41
197.   Bob Timmermann
The seasons of Shawn Chacon and Aaron Small with the Yankees this year offend my sensibilities as a baseball fan. Especially Aaron Small. He's like Derek Lowe light. And he's 9-0.

And he will probably be 10-0 after tonight's massacre of what is left of the Orioles.

2005-09-29 15:33:53
198.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
155 This reminds me of Jim Edmonds' relationship with the Angels and fans. He didn't act as though he cared enough, I guess. All he's done since is put himself in the Hall of Fame (not to mention a brief World Series).

Let's hope Abreu comes here and does the same.

2005-09-29 15:35:51
199.   Bob Timmermann
The Orioles are batting their outfielders 7-8-9 tonight.

Surhoff, Matos, and Newhan

You know who's got to be enjoying a Red Sox/Indians playoff hunt the most? Alex Cora. The guy is pretty much guaranteed a playoff bonus. And he might get two.

2005-09-29 15:36:18
200.   King of the Hobos
What is the Yankees playoff rotation? They get to choose between the rapidly aging Johnson and Mussina, Chacon (one year off a 7+ ERA), 33 yr old AAAA journeyman Small, and the 25 yr old rookie Wang (who, depite Yankee fans thinking otherwise, is not the best rookie pitcher)
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2005-09-29 15:37:02
201.   Jon Weisman
Group Random Dodger Game Callback

September 29, 1607

Run with it...

2005-09-29 15:37:03
202.   Bob Timmermann
Which Hall of Fame is Jim Edmonds going in? Not the one in Cooperstown methinks. He will be going to the Hall of the Very Good.

It's in Syracuse.

2005-09-29 15:53:19
203.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
194 BP pretty much predicted this, or at least that Chacon would do well, when the Yanks got him. His K/W and h/9 numbers were solid for Colorado, I believe.
2005-09-29 15:54:13
204.   D4P
I don't remember much about that game, other than Jesse Orosco striking out Julio Franco to seal the Dodger victory.
2005-09-29 16:02:49
205.   Jacob L
Well, if you meant 1907, then, as every Dodger fan surely knows, we played a doubleheader with the Cubs. Won the first, 5-2, and tied in the second 2-2. Either darkness, Alex Cora fouling off hundreds of pitches, or both.
2005-09-29 16:05:23
206.   D4P
Oh, and that was back when Orosco still pitched right-handed. You weren't allowed to be (or pitch) left-handed back then, as left-handedness was associated with heresy and witchcraft.
2005-09-29 16:09:21
207.   jasonungar05

starting lineups posted here.


2005-09-29 16:13:31
208.   Jon Weisman
205 - I meant 1607.
2005-09-29 16:14:22
209.   Bob Timmermann
Sheesh, Pocahontas in the leadoff spot again? She's getting more mileage out of that "I saved John Smith from being executed" than Rick Monday did with the flag!

She's got no power and she gets a poor jump on the bases.

And she throws like a girl!

2005-09-29 16:16:18
210.   Bob Timmermann
And while it's been said that Jim Tracy can carve lineups out of driftwood, I hear that the manager of the Jamestown squad can paint with all the colors of the wind.
2005-09-29 16:18:18
211.   Bob Timmermann
Well the Orioles kept it close for three batters tonight...
2005-09-29 16:44:07
212.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
202 Edmonds is at 331 homers at 35 years old, and should get past 400. Career numbers are .291/.384/.542 in 13 seasons. PECOTA's list of comparable players includes Reggie Jackson, Stargell, Bonds, Mantle, Mays, McCovey, McGwire, Frank Robinson and Killebrew in the top 20.

Throw in his stack of Golden Glove awards, many of which he won out from under Andruw Jones, and you've gotta figure he's got a chance.

Whether or not he ends up in the Hall, he's a far better player than the Angels had him figured for.

2005-09-29 16:53:07
213.   Marty
You'd have to be an idiot to bat Pocahontas leadoff. No plate discipline
2005-09-29 16:54:34
214.   Marty
Hmm...might be smart if I read previous comments before doing a Pocahontas joke.
2005-09-29 16:56:08
215.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
213 I don't know, she had some pretty heavy hitters following her for much of her career.
2005-09-29 17:01:12
216.   Steve
If Winthrop keeps benching John Alden and playing that no-talent hack Smith instead, I'm going to start
2005-09-29 17:10:16
217.   Borchard504
Surprised at Jerry Narron's re-signing. Lou Pinella is so fondly thought of in Cinci. I was in town last Friday, and several of Narron's regulars had already started the offseason, watching their efforts playing defense. Hmmmm.
2005-09-29 17:11:42
218.   Adam M
212 - Didn't the Angels trade Edmonds for character/chemistry reasons? I remember him seeming like something of a prima donna/me-first type. Definitely no David Eckstein.
2005-09-29 17:17:03
219.   Bob Timmermann
The Angels thought Edmonds didn't do enough to rehab injuries. And he wasn't as gutty as Gary DiSarcina. The New England version of Cesar Izturis. Except he didn't field as well.
2005-09-29 17:18:59
220.   Bob Timmermann
I hear there are rumors that Smith is doping with some leafy substance that he smokes in between games.
2005-09-29 17:34:23
221.   Uncle Miltie
Anyone watching the Yankees game? They are criticizing Miguel Tejada for not "hustling" and showing replays of Jeter running. I guess they have to provide evidence for why Jeter is the best shortstop in the majors.
2005-09-29 17:34:31
222.   D4P
The farmer who sold it to him (by the name of Reynolds) avers that it's perfectly safe.
2005-09-29 17:41:44
223.   fanerman
187, 189

I have a problem with kickers but it's not because of a lack of heart and soul. I don't like the idea of the same 22 guys (+ subs) playing a game for 59:57 to a tie, and then having the game come down to a little white guy who hasn't done anything the entire game. I understand the historical reasons for the kicker, but letting him decide a tie game with 3 seconds left seems so much like flipping a coin or paying a game of scrabble as a tiebreaker.

2005-09-29 17:45:37
224.   Adam M
221 - Say, is this your first time watching a Yankees game on TV? ;)

I just mean fawning over Jeter seems to happen pretty much every time he's on TV. It's a psych experiment in action: you notice it because you've been told a million times to look for it. When Jeter forgets to back up a throw, or doesn't take the relay man out on a DP, it doesn't get brought up.

2005-09-29 17:52:08
225.   Adam M
223 - I hear you, but with no kickers, there's no field goals, and without field goals or some other way of non-endzone scoring, football would be a very different game. You could maybe give teams an automatic 3 points if they get the ball to the opponent's 35, then give them the option to go for 6 or lose the 3 if they fail to score. But that makes my head hurt.

I'd feel the same way about little white guys, but football has become so specialized with long-snappers, kickoff-only placekickers, coverage men, 3rd-down backs, Doug Flutie, etc. that it's not like you'd go back to the days of two-way football and Bronco Nagurski by eliminating kickers.

2005-09-29 17:54:30
226.   dzzrtRatt
Wasn't 1607 the year that all the players from Saint Augustine were supposed to join the big club and take them to the top? Everyone was really high on this kid Don Pedro the Destroyer.
2005-09-29 17:54:36
227.   King of the Hobos
Beltre has gone 2-3 with some singles and a walk tonight, for an OPS of .721. He trails Jayson Werth by only .002 now
2005-09-29 17:56:57
228.   dzzrtRatt
Based on current trends, it will be Chicago vs. the Angels and the Yankees vs. the Indians in the playoffs next week. Current as of this moment. Subject to change.
2005-09-29 18:00:35
229.   fanerman
225 - Yeah I agree, you can't really do without them. It's just... a strange part of the game that I don't full accept. And probably the main reason why I don't like football as much as basketball or baseball.
2005-09-29 18:01:04
230.   Sam DC
A rare off night for Sunny Kim in Colorado, 5 IP, 7ER, v the Mets.
2005-09-29 18:09:02
231.   molokai
You guys are doing great with 1607 but for a quick trip back to the present I think I'm going to have to root for the Yankees against the Sox this weekend for the 1st time in my life. I'd rather see the Tribe this year then the Sox and I don't think the Sox will sweep NY given the collapse of their pitching.

Hope Lake Manor survives the night as it is one of the great places that no one knows about in the San Fernando valley. I take that route using Valley Circle to go to the Dodger games. I'll be home tonight as my wife said she'd kill me if I went to the game even though we are in no danger.

2005-09-29 18:10:23
232.   King of the Hobos
Nothing special back in '05

3B Aybar
1B Choi
SS Robles
2B Kent
RF Cruz
C Navarro
LF Werth
CF Repko
P Perez

2005-09-29 18:10:29
233.   Sam DC
Derek Lee HR #46. Cubs 2-1 over Houston.
2005-09-29 18:11:29
234.   Sam DC
Have we reached the point where Choi starting at first base is "nothing special?" So soon they forget . . .
2005-09-29 18:12:10
235.   fanerman
Yay Choi is playing.
2005-09-29 18:16:26
236.   D4P
Does tonight set a record for "earliest lineup released by Tracy"?
2005-09-29 18:16:53
237.   fanerman
Choi watch: Choi is currenly OPSing .799. Hopefully he can get that up to the land of .800.
2005-09-29 18:17:00
238.   Sam DC
Back in 1607, the Jamestown manager is finding it very hard to predict his squad's likely performance from season to season. If only that Newton guy would get born already so we could get some mathematics invented.
2005-09-29 18:20:14
239.   capdodger
And though the team hasn't a thing to eat, the team alchemy hath never been higher.
2005-09-29 18:23:19
240.   D4P
More on Choi's OPSing:

As 1b: .830
As PH: .594
Batting #2: 1.046

Not saying His position in the lineup makes a difference, but I do think it's fair to say His overall numbers would be higher had Hee started more and pinch-hit less.

2005-09-29 18:25:23
241.   fanerman
240 - That's for certain. And it's not an unreasonable idea to think that had Choi been allowed to get used to "clutch" situations, he would get more comfortable in them (or if he knew his playing time wasn't on the line he'd be better).

By the way, since he's Korean, his first name is Hee Seop, right? Seop isn't his middle name, part of his first. I'm not sure so somebody check me on that.

2005-09-29 18:28:50
242.   Sam DC
In Houston: "With Glendon Rusch batting, Michael Barrett caught stealing home."

Stealing home? (possible botched squeeze?)

And then Rusch singled . . .

2005-09-29 18:34:23
243.   Bob Timmermann
I'm sure that's a blown squeeze play.
2005-09-29 18:36:31
244.   Bob Timmermann
Dodgers are 3 outs away from avoiding last!
2005-09-29 18:46:17
245.   D4P
It's a sad day when that is a source of joy.
2005-09-29 18:51:06
246.   Bob Timmermann
You take your victories where you can find them.
2005-09-29 18:55:04
247.   Bob Timmermann
Mets 11, Rockies 0

Dodgers guaranteed no worse than 4th!

2005-09-29 18:58:05
248.   Sam DC
Go Blue!
2005-09-29 19:02:28
249.   Sam DC
Ortiz homers to tie the Sox and Jays in the bottom of the eighth.
2005-09-29 19:04:58
250.   regfairfield
I would say let's go Boston,but so far my desire to see the Angels and the White Sox out of the playoffs have gone unfuffilled, so I won't jinx it.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2005-09-29 19:12:59
251.   Fallout
162 - I would pay good money to see an outfield of Drew, Bradley, and Abreu.

Would you bet good money that a season that starts with them would finish with them?

2005-09-29 19:14:00
252.   Bob Timmermann
Royce Clayton is leading off?
2005-09-29 19:14:48
253.   Bob Timmermann
I should keep my mouth shut about Royce Clayton.
2005-09-29 19:15:54
254.   Sam DC
250 Well, just thinking it seems to have done the trick. Sox got Manny to third with no outs, but couldn't score him. Tied going into the ninth.
2005-09-29 19:17:35
255.   King of the Hobos
Choi did not play his position well just now. Or Clayton is really fast. I doubt it's the latter
2005-09-29 19:19:39
256.   Bob Timmermann
Unless Navarro gets hurt or (God forbid) has other family health issues, have we seen the last game behind the plate for Phillips. I would think Mike Rose would get a start in San Diego just to be nice to him.
2005-09-29 19:20:51
257.   Bob Timmermann
PR Charles Gipson is thrown out at the plate trying to score the tying run for Houston to end the game.

Phillies inch to within 2 games.

Cubs win 3-2 over Houston.

2005-09-29 19:22:34
258.   Uncle Miltie
I would say let's go Boston,but so far my desire to see the Angels and the White Sox out of the playoffs have gone unfuffilled, so I won't jinx it.
250- so you want the Yankees and Red Sox to make the playoffs
2005-09-29 19:23:59
259.   Bob Timmermann

Dodgers fans used to love a first baseman who could never make that play either.

2005-09-29 19:26:52
260.   Fallout
218. Adam M

I remember it being something about injuries and not playing hurt or not working out while hurt...causing problems.

2005-09-29 19:28:40
261.   King of the Hobos
If the Dodgers get shut out by Nippert, then it's all the proof we need. Jacksonville scored scored 4 runs off him in 13 IP, so they'd be slightly better (although they K'd 18 times). Not a good sign for the future, Nippert could be a Dodger killer for years
2005-09-29 19:29:21
262.   Sam DC
In Boston, tie game, bottom nine, one out, Damon at 2nd, Renterria at first, Ortiz coming to bat . . .
2005-09-29 19:32:03
263.   Bob Timmermann

I think tonight's game wouldn't be particularly indicative of anything.

2005-09-29 19:32:43
264.   King of the Hobos
Nice shot of Choi spitting out a gob of something
2005-09-29 19:33:46
265.   Sam DC
. . . And he runs the count full and then singles to win it.

Media, start your glowing praisometers. Someone wake Gammons. Hurry!

2005-09-29 19:34:34
266.   Bob Timmermann
A mid-game interview by Vin?

He must be bored.

2005-09-29 19:35:42
267.   King of the Hobos
DePo emphasizing OBP and SLG, so he hasn't gone crazy. I'm really starting to believe he has no interest in Tracy or his love for Phillips

And he called Bradley "terrific"

2005-09-29 19:36:58
268.   Bob Timmermann
The impossible has happened!

Manny Alexander has gotten a hit for San Diego.

2005-09-29 19:38:35
269.   Uncle Miltie
Likes Drew, Choi (patient hitter, gets his pitch in the 2nd spot), Drew (leads team in OBP+Slug), etc.

Called Izturis "our Gold Glove shortstop"

2005-09-29 19:42:45
270.   das411
251 - That's the joke. They would be one of the most productive outfields in the game for about two weeks. Then they would turn into a bad sitcom. Or a hilariously funny sitcom if Abreu's ex-wife shows up anywhere near JD. And don't get Milton's woman near any of them or watch out!

265 - So Ortiz has that MVP locked up now right? Until tomorrow night when the East Coast Hype Machine goes into full-on playoff mode?

2005-09-29 19:43:04
271.   King of the Hobos
DePo claims he doesn't want to run out a prospect team next year. And he "thinks so" that he'll sign some FAs
2005-09-29 19:44:14
272.   Steve
Well, they didn't run a prospect team out there this year, so at least he's consistent.
2005-09-29 19:44:21
273.   King of the Hobos
DePo wants a bat first and foremost, as well as a starting pitcher. He seemed to indicate that our bullpen is fine
2005-09-29 19:44:54
274.   Bob Timmermann
Ortiz winning the MVP over Rodriguez would be a travesty along the lines of Walker beating out Piazza in 1997.
2005-09-29 19:45:28
275.   Bob Timmermann
And in the bottom of the 8th,

It's Kansas City 10, Minnesota 6

2005-09-29 19:48:03
276.   Steve
It is to some credit to this website that I had no idea (nor do I care now) that the Dodgers had the third lowest error total in their history this year until I just read it on LA Observed.
2005-09-29 19:50:07
277.   King of the Hobos
276 Lowest? I thought we blew up our defense, correct?

DePo wants to make up for Aybar's power elsewhere on the field, although I have no idea whether he wants to start him next year. Vin brought it up

2005-09-29 19:50:42
278.   Telemachos
Speaking of Ortiz, my fave Baseball Tonight moment came when Harold Reynolds announced he "really liked" Ortiz trying to bunt yesterday -- "because he was trying to get on base for Manny".

The mind boggles.

2005-09-29 19:51:30
279.   werthgagne31
Depodesta is saying exactly what i have been saying.
He said that with navarro and martin the catching will be great for some time (doesn't sound like he's going to trade either one).
He also said he isn't going to overdue it with sending out too many young guys next season and that he will be persueing starting pitching and offense help from free agency and he says the bullpen is fine.
And he said maybe a trade (i'm thinking for a starting pitcher).
I'm thinking 1 starting pitcher and 1 outfielder from free agency.
And 1 trade for a starting pitcher.
I think he will shore up our starting pitching to give the bullpen some breathing room with also an outfielder to shore up the offense.
2005-09-29 19:51:36
280.   King of the Hobos
Something about DePo's demeanor when Vin asked him about Edwin makes me feel that he will not be on the team next year. But what do I know?
2005-09-29 19:52:16
281.   Steve
277 -- I don't know. We may have, we may not have. LA Observed got it from the pre-game notes, so it's from the same people who put on the board that Elmer Dessens has played in Japan and Jason Repko holds the record for most triples in a game by a Lo Duca look alike.
2005-09-29 19:53:04
282.   Uncle Miltie
279- I think Depodesta is going to make one big trade for a power (Dunn?) and one semi-big trade for a SP (Lilly?). I don't expect Robles to be the starting SS next year.
2005-09-29 19:54:12
283.   Bob Timmermann
Last night, the message board put up a note for Kuo that actually pertained to Derek Thompson.
2005-09-29 19:54:30
284.   King of the Hobos
280 I get the same exact feeling from his response on Repko
2005-09-29 19:56:24
285.   King of the Hobos
282 The good news is Lilly is a FA. I'm guessing DePo has his eyes on him as a big bargain, especially with how well he pitched this year
2005-09-29 19:56:58
286.   Bob Timmermann
I get a big switch in cultures tomorrow for the football game I'm covering. I was supposed to cover a game in La Canada. But I've been switched to a game at Fremont High instead.

What color clothing should I wear?

2005-09-29 19:57:48
287.   werthgagne31
millwood, lilly, giles.
2005-09-29 19:57:53
288.   Steve
284 -- They said that about Grabowski.

He'll be back.

2005-09-29 19:58:09
289.   King of the Hobos
I just noticed that Jon finally updated the side bar. Seems to have some spacing issues though (is that just me?)
2005-09-29 20:00:27
290.   Bob Timmermann




2005-09-29 20:02:23
291.   King of the Hobos
Why is Tracy running Aybar? His 3 SBs are not his typical style. He managed 15 in '01, but had 8 CS. He's never had more SBs than CSs since
2005-09-29 20:02:47
292.   Uncle Miltie
285- for some reason I thought Lilly was arbitration eligible. Lilly is a former Dodger farm hand and is from the LA area. He'd probably be willing to take a 1 year deal, to re-establish himself as a good pitcher.

Just another walk for Aybar. He got a huge jump on that stolen base.

2005-09-29 20:05:18
293.   Jon Weisman
289 - So impatient.

The Dodgers do have the third-lowest error total in their history right now, but it's about 50 percent higher than last year's. No, I guess I don't pay a lot of attention to team error totals. I think the reality is what we've thought all along - the defense is not as good as last year's and not as bad as the media wanted us to believe.

2005-09-29 20:09:04
294.   Bob Timmermann

They might have well left their gloves at home!

2005-09-29 20:09:28
295.   Bob Timmermann
I meant 293 not 291
2005-09-29 20:11:07
296.   Terry A
Millwood, Lilly, Giles,
Overpriced or just too old;
Isn't this haiku?

Tracy is to be credited for saving this team's place in the defensive annals by cleverly benching Perez and Choi for chunks of the season.

2005-09-29 20:13:55
297.   gvette
281- Then again, LA Observed also claims that the Dodgers need to win 3 out of 4 to avoid the team's "worst season since coming to Los Angeles."

Does that mean that the 99 loss '92 train wreck featuring Strawberry/Davis/Todd Benzinger was just a bad dream?

2005-09-29 20:15:30
298.   King of the Hobos
296 Is playing Saenz/Phillips over Choi doing anything for the defense? I really doubt it. Perez isn't the greatest 3B, but he's better than Edwards (whose range helped keep bad plays down)
2005-09-29 20:16:00
299.   Steve
Is Robles hitting third for his defense?
2005-09-29 20:17:59
300.   D4P
Are you suggesting there's something wrong with a .686 OPS in the third spot?
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2005-09-29 20:20:02
301.   Steve
There's something wrong with a .686 OPS.
2005-09-29 20:20:23
302.   King of the Hobos
If San Diego uses the same line up as they are tonight, we could sweep that series. Not that it would mean anything, but you know your line up isn't too productive when Olivo is batting 5th behind clean up hitter Nady. And .221 avg Johnson batting 3rd (although he has a decent .798 OPS)
2005-09-29 20:20:42
303.   Uncle Miltie
I know this is going to sound crazy, but how about acquiring Kazuo Matsui? He only has 1 year left on his contract. He needs a change of scenery and the Dodgers are one of the few teams that he would accept a trade to. Jason Phillips and Brazoban for Matsui, Heath Bell and cash.
2. Trade Edwin Jackson, Justin Orenduff, and another pitching prospect for Adam Dunn.
3. Sign Ted Lilly for 1 year $3 million (+ incentives)
4. Keep Milton Bradley
5. Sign Eduardo Perez
6. Fire Tracy, Hire Ron Washington

Billingsley/Houlton/Veteran FA

1. Aybar 3B
2. Bradley CF
3. Drew RF
4. Kent 2B
5. Dunn LF
6. Choi/E. Perez 1B
7. Navarro C
8. Matsui SS (Robles, if Matsui bombs)

2005-09-29 20:23:10
304.   Bob Timmermann
Teams that have beaten the Dodgers 7 times in L.A. in a season
1958 - Chicago, San Francisco
1960 - Pittsburgh
1961 - Cincinnati
1962 - St. Louis
1963 - Philadelphia
1964 - Cincinnati
1967 - Philadelphia
1970 - Cincinnati
1973 - San Diego
1983 - San Diego
2001 - San Diego
2002 - San Francisco
2004 - Arizona (with one left!)
2005-09-29 20:24:15
305.   Steve
Isn't Matsui's contract, like, a billion dollars?
2005-09-29 20:26:09
306.   Uncle Miltie
$6.7 million (so the Mets would have to pay $4+ million)
2005-09-29 20:28:14
307.   Steve
That's still nine times what Robles would get paid to essentially do the same job.
2005-09-29 20:34:14
308.   Icaros
Is Eduardo Perez supposed to be an upgrade over Olmedo Saenz? Couldn't Choi just play full time instead?
2005-09-29 20:34:27
309.   King of the Hobos
303 That's not a terrible offseason. Matsui is interesting, not sure I like him though. Batting 8th wouldn't be bad, but he was notorious during the '04 season of being an awful fielder
2005-09-29 20:36:55
310.   King of the Hobos
308 I believe Perez has some ability to field. That said, he's actually a year older, and he's only an upgrade over Saenz if Saenz leaves for DHing. I'd like Saenz to classified as class B, offer him arby, have him turn it down, then get Perez and the sandwich pick. From his quote yesterday though, it doesn't sound like he has plans to leave
2005-09-29 20:39:27
311.   Steve
Perez looks like he would be a pretty good replacement for Saenz.
2005-09-29 20:39:50
312.   D4P
Just another walk for Aybar.
2005-09-29 20:39:57
313.   King of the Hobos
Matsui has an OPS of .847 in Japan. If he could do that, he'd be worth it. However, I have little faith that he will do that

2005-09-29 20:40:02
314.   Uncle Miltie
I don't think Matsui is as bad of a defender as showed in 2004. He's had some injury problems the past couple years. I really think he could us a change of scenery. I think he could put up Julio Lugo-like numbers (with less speed and a little more power). .270/.340/.420

Just another walk for Aybar...

2005-09-29 20:40:35
315.   Bob Timmermann
Kazuo Matsui? The guy who lost his job to the older version of Oscar Robles (Miguel Cairo)? That guy? For that contract?


2005-09-29 20:40:36
316.   Steve
Though while we were all napping, he went and turned 36 this year.
2005-09-29 20:40:38
317.   Uncle Miltie
312- you stole my line!
2005-09-29 20:41:04
318.   werthgagne31
what's matsui gonna do for us, is he any better than who we have?
why spend money on bullpen help, we have plenty of capable bullpen guys.
why trade too much for dunn when he will turn around and leave after next year?
why rush billingsley?
why have a weak 5th starter?
i will agree with you about firing tracy.
shore up the starting rotation with 2 guys(millwood,lilly)with penny,lowe,perez.
add giles to the offense.
and hope laroche is ready for 3b so you have laroche,aybar,kent,choi/seanz(or a seanz clone).
giles,drew, and either bradley or cruz in the outfield.

your roster has too many holes plus maybe rushing billingsley, do we want to have another jackson situation, and you give up too much for dunn who will be a 1 year rental, i have no idea why you want matsui, and i have no idea why you want to spend money on bullpen help when we have plenty of guys available.

2005-09-29 20:41:34
319.   Steve
I know that I keep bringing this up, but I know of no better way to make this point repeatedly. Grabowski OPSes 1.000 in Vegas.
2005-09-29 20:41:49
320.   D4P
Just another strikeout for Choi.
2005-09-29 20:44:20
321.   D4P
What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.
2005-09-29 20:44:54
322.   Icaros
319 Bob Timmermann played there two years ago and OPSed .875.
2005-09-29 20:47:29
323.   Kilgore Trout
I'm following the game on Gameday.

Question for those actually watching the game:

Did Choi just take three strikes right down the middle of the plate?

2005-09-29 20:47:29
324.   Steve
Though I do like the idea of having less speed and more power. In fact, since Tracy will probably be around for the next ten years, we had better start trading anybody who runs faster than a 4.8 40
2005-09-29 20:49:43
325.   Icaros
In fact, since Tracy will probably be around for the next ten years...

You say that just so you can stay in business, capitalist scum.

2005-09-29 20:50:32
326.   Bob Timmermann
The 1913 Dodgers lost the most games to one team at home in a season. They went 1-10 against the Phillies.

In 1939, the Dodgers were 12-0 against Philadelphia in Brooklyn.

The only team that played more than one series in L.A. that didn't lose a game here was the 1988 Mets who went 6-0 against the Dodgers at Dodger Stadium.

2005-09-29 20:50:32
327.   King of the Hobos

"It's games like that that make the difference between being mediocre and being very good," Tracy said. "We have 14 rookies out of 32 active players in there ... I can't remember a team that was playing in October that had that many rookies."

Braves have 13 of 34 on my count. Dodgers have more, but the difference is fairly negligible

'After an extended discussion, Tracy singled out missing "components" in the clubhouse -- assumedly the departures of Adrian Beltre, Steve Finley, Alex Cora, Shawn Green et al. -- and injuries as the prime reasons for the Dodgers' falloff from last year's 93-win campaign.

"Injuries play a part. They're not an excuse," Tracy said. "Would [good health] have made us a 90- to 95-win club? No. But given that the divisional leader is a .500 club, could it have kept us in that radar? Yes, it could have." '

Tracy thinks it has to do with all the mediocre guys leaving...there's more to hating their replacements than I thought

Penny is done for the season

2005-09-29 20:50:50
328.   Uncle Miltie
320- you can have that one

Eduardo Perez is a left killer
In his career vs LHP
.263/.369/.503 .872 (692 AB)
.235/.293/.374 .668 (916 AB)

This year vs LHP
.262/.377/.538 .915 10 HR (130 AB)

why spend money on bullpen help, we have plenty of capable bullpen guys.
Where in my post did I say I wanted to spend a bunch of money on relievers?

why have a weak 5th starter?
shore up the starting rotation with 2 guys(millwood,lilly)with penny,lowe,perez.
So you want the Dodgers to commit close to $40 million to starters alone? We aren't talking about the Yankees, unless you want a bunch of minor leaguers filling out the lineup next year.

2005-09-29 20:51:57
329.   Steve
I have no business to stay in. But Cincinnati was so excited about Tracy they wrapped up Jerry Narron.
2005-09-29 20:52:59
330.   Steve
The most glaring component missing in the clubhouse has been missing for five years.
2005-09-29 20:53:05
331.   Bob Timmermann
So who hits the 2-run homer this inning?
2005-09-29 20:54:08
332.   Icaros
More overrated Repko defense.
2005-09-29 20:54:55
333.   Uncle Miltie
I think Bradley makes that catch without diving
2005-09-29 20:55:06
334.   Steve
Speed kills.
2005-09-29 20:56:03
335.   Icaros
But boy, Repko sure gave it his all, the little tiger.
2005-09-29 20:56:06
336.   DaveP
I'd be a little happier if Kuo could maintain velocity on back to back nights. He's 88mph - 90 mph tonight. what happened to his 96 mph fastball?
2005-09-29 20:57:52
337.   DaveP
Kuo needs to go turn the clubhouse upside down looking for his fastball.
2005-09-29 20:58:03
338.   Bob Timmermann
The last team to beat the Dodgers at home 8 times in a season was the 1957 Phillies, but one of those games was played in Jersey City.

The 1952 Dodgers lost 9 games in Ebbets Field to Philadelphia. And the Dodgers won the pennant that year.

2005-09-29 20:59:05
339.   Uncle Miltie
Geo might give up a HR here
2005-09-29 20:59:31
340.   D4P
All right, we get another chance to see what Myrow can do.
2005-09-29 21:01:22
341.   Steve
Whatever you do, don't double switch with Robles. This is Oscar's team.
2005-09-29 21:03:06
342.   Steve
Memo to Kevin Kennedy: Jason Repko is part of the problem, not part of the solution.
2005-09-29 21:03:25
343.   Bob Timmermann
The Giants and Padres are sleepwalking through their game. Unlike this intense matchup!
2005-09-29 21:03:49
344.   D4P
Besides: he might get grouchy.
2005-09-29 21:05:06
345.   Steve
The good news is that as soon as he gets down to OBP .300, Tracy will be comfortable moving him back up to the leadoff spot.
2005-09-29 21:05:14
346.   Sam DC
We get Ted Lilly for one year/$3 million plus incentives? OK with me.


ESPN2 is running this Heroic Baseball sobber "Baseball is . . ." I watch, but I swear it must take them 5 minutes to slap these things together. "Get that shot of Hank Aaron with the fans circling the bases, show Gibby's home run, Mays makes The Catch, work in some 9-11 stuff, grab George Will and Ben Affleck, we're good."

Interesting, when they ran the Gibson home run, they spliced Vin's call ("She is gone") together with Buck's ("I don't believe what I just saw."). Wierd.

It's fun to see the old clips, but they sure didn't do too much digging.

2005-09-29 21:06:37
347.   Sam DC
344 That's good.
2005-09-29 21:07:35
348.   Uncle Miltie
342- did you not see Repko's historic game last night?
2005-09-29 21:08:04
349.   D4P
Tracy's gonna have a tough decision next year when Izturis returns: which .300 OBP guy to put in the leadoff spot. The good news is that, while there's only room for one of them at leadoff, the other can slide nicely into the #3 spot.
2005-09-29 21:08:30
350.   Bob Timmermann
Repko's historic game was Monday.
Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2005-09-29 21:08:43
351.   Uncle Miltie
Depodesta said (in a nicer way) that if Repko learns how to hit, he could become a "cornerstone player"
2005-09-29 21:09:21
352.   oldbear
327. Tracy definitely on his way out. For him to say, "Even if all the guys DePo brought in were healthy, we'd still not have won at least 90 games"...... And then to single out missing guys that the team didnt even miss.

Goodbye Tracy.

I'm not even upset that Tracy double switched Choi out of the game, even though Robles made the last out of the 5th inning, and you have a .310 hitter sitting on the bench...

The Dodgers remind me of the Florida Gators. Pretty good talent, but ran into the ground by Ron Zook. Zook is seen as a 'good guy' in the media, and people think he's a sympathetic figure. Urban Meyer comes into Florida and immediatelyl makes them a ton better.

Whomever walks into the Dodger situation next year is gonna be in a great spot. Similar to Terry Francona walking into the Red Sox job.

Goodbye Jim Tracy.

2005-09-29 21:10:03
353.   Steve
And since that has uncomfortable echoes of Joe Morgan's assertion that Hitting is the other X Factor of the playoffs, it summarizes nicely why I have lost much respect for DePodesta over the course of the year.
2005-09-29 21:10:21
354.   Uncle Miltie
350- we must define historic in a different way. I'm referring to his 2 walk game.
2005-09-29 21:11:01
355.   Bob Timmermann
I didn't realize I was a witness to history yesterday!
2005-09-29 21:12:34
356.   oldbear
And also. Ron Zook now coaches my alma mater Illinois. They lost saturday 61-14 to MSU.
2005-09-29 21:13:03
357.   Steve
Icaros needs to start Repko Central.
2005-09-29 21:13:49
358.   Uncle Miltie
Looks like I lied. Repko had 2 walk game on Jun 16 against the Kansas City Royals.
2005-09-29 21:14:04
359.   Uncle Miltie
2005-09-29 21:19:26
360.   oldbear
This young whipper snapper Giovanni Carrara sure looks good...

Its good the Dodgers are getting a look at him.

2005-09-29 21:21:14
361.   King of the Hobos

Would we have won 90 games without Carrara? No. He's done a great job, and I think he deserves to pitch

2005-09-29 21:22:39
362.   Bob Timmermann
You would have thought that since the Dodgers had 2 hits Monday and 4 hits Tuesday, they would be due for 8 today.
2005-09-29 21:23:01
363.   King of the Hobos
361 That should probably read 70 wins, I'm not too sure where I was going with that
2005-09-29 21:23:21
364.   Uncle Miltie
Very good play by Werth. Hopefully he didn't separate his shoulder.
2005-09-29 21:23:37
365.   Steve
We could be looking at this backward. Maybe Repko has figured out that if he gets his OBP above .300, Tracy will start benching him.
2005-09-29 21:25:01
366.   Bob Timmermann
Somebody has to pitch. Broxton is warming up. Osoria and Kuo have already pitched.

You want to see Brazoban again?

2005-09-29 21:27:23
367.   Uncle Miltie
I love Royce Clayton. Maybe I should buy him a shotgun, just for that at bat.

This kid Carrara is brilliant. He's built like Gagne, so there's a good chance that he's going to be a great pitcher. He has a stunning curve and a blazing fastball.

2005-09-29 21:28:17
368.   oldbear
365. I'm still trying to figure out the difference between Jason Repko and Jason Romano?
2005-09-29 21:28:47
369.   regfairfield
367 And he's only eight years older than that kid Edwards.
2005-09-29 21:30:54
370.   King of the Hobos
368 We have yet to steal someone from the DRays in exchange for Repko. That's the biggest difference. I'm personally rooting for a Gomes-Repko swap
2005-09-29 21:30:56
371.   Uncle Miltie
Romano can play 2B...oh wait
2005-09-29 21:31:13
372.   oldbear
I smell a hit and run coming up.....
2005-09-29 21:31:14
373.   Steve
Who in turn is only a couple of months younger than our hot new first base prospect. He defines clutch.
2005-09-29 21:31:32
374.   Bob Timmermann
Look somebody had to pitch that inning. Do the Dodgers have an inexhaustible supply of pitchers who meet the Dodger Thoughts Seal of Approval? I doubt it.

Now you can go back to picking on Jason Repko.

2005-09-29 21:31:39
375.   King of the Hobos
Repko's a little too scrappy
2005-09-29 21:32:31
376.   Steve
370 -- And suddenly, a distant ray of brilliant hope emerges from the storm clouds.

Good God, he is so useless

2005-09-29 21:33:09
377.   King of the Hobos
374 Sure, why not. Repko could pitch, at least he has a chance to be on the team (a team?) next year
2005-09-29 21:33:10
378.   oldbear
Its a good thing that happened to Jason Repko.

Any other player, and they'd be in Buntermaker's doghouse.

But with Scrappy, it just matters that he hustled back to the dugout.

2005-09-29 21:33:30
379.   Uncle Miltie
That won't count as CS because he didn't try to advance to 2nd base. Weird rule.

I'd prefer Repko for Crawford.

2005-09-29 21:34:41
380.   Steve
Repko for Chuck LaMar
2005-09-29 21:36:18
381.   Sam DC
I think I'm glad I was watching "Summer School" for the last fifteen minutes. Turns out, the too-young surfer girl in that movie is actually big star Courteny Thorne-Smith. Who knew?

Can we please score some more runs? Please.

2005-09-29 21:36:50
382.   capdodger

I just noticed the payroll worksheet has been updated in the sidebar. That's a fair bit of money to play with, I hope.

2005-09-29 21:37:20
383.   Steve
381 -- Nope. The Arizona bullpen is in. Lights out for us.
2005-09-29 21:38:25
384.   Bob Timmermann
Is being on "According to Jim" qualify you to be a "big star"?
2005-09-29 21:38:35
385.   DaveP
that's how you get your money's worth on a wild pitch.
2005-09-29 21:41:59
386.   oldbear
Brox K's another All Star.
2005-09-29 21:43:03
387.   oldbear
Connor Jackson gets no respect...
2005-09-29 21:43:07
388.   Uncle Miltie
So Broxton adds another great hitter to the K list (Pujols x2, Bay, Andruw Jones?)
2005-09-29 21:43:26
389.   Bob Timmermann
Winning run on 3rd with 2 outs for the Padres on a bloop double by Manny Alexander.
2005-09-29 21:44:43
390.   Bob Timmermann
Free baseball at PETCO!
2005-09-29 21:46:01
391.   oldbear
387. And we see why.
2005-09-29 21:47:29
392.   Sam DC
384 Well, Melrose Place I think. And in general, if you're on tv and I recognize you, then you're a big star because I am not very toolsy in the recognizing famous people department.

I once served a bottle of wine to Yo Yo Ma. I recognized him. But he had a cello. I also once made a capuccino for Dr. Alan Bricker and recognized him. But generally I don't do well in this area.

2005-09-29 21:51:46
393.   Steve
Strangely, I have confidence that someday, the Dodger pitching staff will solve the puzzle that is Luis Terrero.
2005-09-29 21:51:50
394.   capdodger
382 If by "this area" you mean the National Capital Region, I'd agree. Most "celebs" here are rather boring looking.

But then I can't recognize people anyway.

2005-09-29 21:52:22
395.   oldbear
Brox K's the side but noted Dodger killer Luis Terrero does the damage.
2005-09-29 21:52:27
396.   Uncle Miltie
Typical inning for the Bull. Poor command, lots of baserunners, lots of Ks.
2005-09-29 21:53:37
397.   Sam DC
394 By "this area" I meant this area of expertise. Your right though, Famous for DC types are pretty tough to recognize.
2005-09-29 21:55:42
398.   capdodger
On gameday that seemed like a funny inning. Four free bases and a hit yet only one run.

Ox should take heed:

2005-09-29 21:55:48
399.   Uncle Miltie
Valentin over Perez? This guy must be a super prospect.
2005-09-29 21:55:48
400.   Bob Timmermann
I've posted my list of famous people I've helped at the library before.

It runs from Justine Bateman to Weird Al Yankovic!

Show/Hide Comments 401-450
2005-09-29 21:58:23
401.   Uncle Miltie
Not a good major league debut for Valentin
2005-09-29 21:58:46
402.   capdodger
Jose will save us!!!

Or not....

2005-09-29 21:59:59
403.   oldbear
That double switch just netted the team a Jose Valentin PH appearance.


2005-09-29 22:00:05
404.   Bob Timmermann
You folks are definitely NOT using the losers dividend to your advantage.

More cheap shots here than a football game with Bill Romanowski.

2005-09-29 22:01:42
405.   Uncle Miltie
Nice job by Robles. For once he doesn't leave Kent on deck.

How many pitches will Kent see in his at bat? Prediction: 4

2005-09-29 22:02:28
406.   Uncle Miltie
This veteran Medders is getting some calls that Broxton didn't.
2005-09-29 22:03:45
407.   oldbear
Methinks Kent isnt going to get #30 this year, no matter how hard the tries.
2005-09-29 22:04:15
408.   Bob Timmermann
Padres win 1-0. Damian Jackson RBI single gives the Padres victory #80.
2005-09-29 22:05:22
409.   capdodger
You need to read the fine print of the Losers Dividend, Bob. The team reposesses it at 12:00 AM October 3rd. It's sort of like cell phone plans without rollover.

As for verbal cheap shots. I'm saving all mine for the off-chance I meet the Hammer in the street. I've got some real good ones for him.

2005-09-29 22:07:06
410.   oldbear
Its Schmoll time. A week ago I thought Schmoll had the edge over Brazo for next year's bullpen.

But Jon said he couldnt see how Schmoll has the upper hand.

Has anyone's opinions been changed?

Schmoll vs Brazo...

2005-09-29 22:20:20
411.   capdodger
City, State, and Listing name please....
2005-09-29 22:21:14
412.   SiGeg

He was very good for an extended period before he was bad.

Schmoll has never (not yet) been good for more than a game or two here and there.

2005-09-29 22:22:04
413.   King of the Hobos
Navarro pads his stats. Just what we need, a worthless veteran homering when it doesn't matter ;)
2005-09-29 22:22:55
414.   Bob Timmermann
And now we will all be haunted by Broxton's HBP of Terrero with the bases loaded?

Won't we?

All through the off-season!

2005-09-29 22:23:00
415.   oldbear
Viva Navarro! HR #3.
2005-09-29 22:23:17
416.   King of the Hobos
Considering Navarro had just hit a homer, Ledee swung too early in the count, and at a worthless pitch
2005-09-29 22:25:43
417.   Bob Timmermann
Have you ever considered that either Ledee thought he had a good pitch or Lyon made a good pitch?

For most people here, the proper time to swing seems to be never. And pitchers never make pitches that fool batters.

2005-09-29 22:26:45
418.   capdodger
So if Saenz gets on, who does Tracy bring out.... He should bring Perez, but will probably bring Edwards.
2005-09-29 22:27:06
419.   Uncle Miltie
Nice, we lose on a bad call by the umpire.
2005-09-29 22:27:07
420.   King of the Hobos
The ump should have given us the call. It's a meaningless game, it looked like he was safe, and the crowd would have loved it.
2005-09-29 22:27:13
421.   capdodger
Eh.... whatever.
2005-09-29 22:27:40
422.   Uncle Miltie
Edwin Jackson would probably have pinch run.
2005-09-29 22:28:15
423.   King of the Hobos
417 I never consider such trivial things
2005-09-29 22:28:16
424.   das411
417 - is Bob T turning into Jon??
2005-09-29 22:30:21
425.   regfairfield
417 No one ever took a walk by swinging, or something like that.
2005-09-29 22:30:27
426.   Bob Timmermann
I just would have thought in a meaningless game at the end of the year, people would engage in more stuff than just the regular old complaints.

I'm very glad I'm not going to be around for the last three games. Because I would be irritated beyond belief.

2005-09-29 22:32:28
427.   SiGeg
For most people here, the proper time to swing seems to be never.

Well, that would be my strategy if I got a shot at the majors.

Of course, that would be the only way I'd ever have the slightest chance of getting on base.

2005-09-29 22:33:29
428.   Steve
For most people here, the proper time to swing seems to be never.

That only applies to Repko and Grabowski. Everyone else may fire at will.

2005-09-29 22:36:11
429.   Eric L

Miltie, I watched the play a few times on the DVR. It was close enough where the call could go either way. I think Olmedo was safe, but TV doesn't always tell the whole story on a bang-bang play like that. I thought the umpire kicked the call until I watched it again.


Weren't we all just discussing how enjoyable just watching a game and not really caring what the outcome was the other day?

2005-09-29 22:37:01
430.   Louis in SF
#408 Bob, the key to the Jackson RBI and win for the Padres was a bunt single leading off the 11th by our old favorite David Ross!..If the Dodgers take at least 1 game from the Padres they can insure that the Pads will have the worst record of any playoff team. If we were to take 2-3, San Diego would end up having a losing record!
2005-09-29 22:38:06
431.   King of the Hobos
427 I'd have a similar problem. I could also use the Biggio tactic though, although that could hurt
2005-09-29 22:41:18
432.   Bob Timmermann
It seems that when the Dodgers lose, there is nothing else on people's mind except Tracy-bashing. But that needs to be handled deftly.

Tonight it was handled like a blunt instrument being used to bludgeon us into unconsciousness.

2005-09-29 22:44:33
433.   SiGeg
What if the Pads win the WS? Unlikely, but it could happen. No one would turn down that chance, I'm sure...but wouldn't it at least be a little embarrassing to be known as the worst champion ever?
2005-09-29 22:45:39
434.   Bob Timmermann
I don't think the 1987 Twins felt embarrassed.
2005-09-29 22:51:04
435.   Steve
Kuo not only got the loss but, strangely enough, he got a blown save.

Which will immediately lead everyone to conclude that he can't pitch in save situations.

2005-09-29 22:51:42
436.   King of the Hobos
432 We need to plan for next year if there's no Tracy. We can complain about...? Drew? DePo? Bonds? Tracy's decisions for other teams?
2005-09-29 22:54:44
437.   SiGeg
Perhaps "embarrassed" isn't quite the right word. But don't you think it taints the joy just a little bit (for the fans, if not the players) that every time that team comes up, the idea of "worst champion ever" seems to go right along with it?
2005-09-29 22:55:09
438.   Bob Timmermann
Blown saves in the middle innings seem pointless. Even if Kuo struck out the side on 9 pitches, he wasn't going to be around for a save.
2005-09-29 22:56:36
439.   Steve
I guess technically, if he pitches the last four innings, he gets a save. Ergo, save situation.

Not my favorite stat.

2005-09-29 23:00:49
440.   Linkmeister
"As for verbal cheap shots. I'm saving all mine for the off-chance I meet the Hammer in the street. I've got some real good ones for him."

That gets my vote for Best Non-baseball Comment, Baseball Blog.

2005-09-29 23:18:45
441.   Louis in SF
Just looked at a quick and dirty analysis of available free agent hitters. Brian Giles has been the love child for many on this site, but do we really want a 35 year old hitter whose pop is limited. It strikes me that he maybe on his way to the A's at a reasonable salary and be the missing part to an A's team that is ready to make a long term run. Jacque Jones maybe better suited to the Dodgers.
2005-09-29 23:22:41
442.   regfairfield
441 Jacque Jones has a worse VORP than So Taguchi. I would take him at a very low price, but, that's just not going to happen.
2005-09-29 23:24:46
443.   dzzrtRatt
426 Bob, your dry martini wit will be missed.

I usually don't go on this site during games. It's like a bunch of people complaining at work. They might be right about everything they say, but enough already. It's depressing.

The pre-game commentary and discussion is, on the other hand, usually excellent and I look forward to it.

2005-09-29 23:30:46
444.   Eric L
442In other words, a 35 year old Brian Giles is probably still more valuable than the younger Jacque Jones. I bet if Bowden is still around in DC, he'll find a way to pay Jones a hefty sum. Maybe the Pads will pick him as a replacement for Giles (wishful thinking with Alderson being the team president).

443I'm with you on that one Ratt. The pregame stuff is always fun. I look forward to seeing what Bob, Nate, Fearing, and Stan (amongst others) have to say and it usually seems like they around before the games.

2005-09-29 23:38:33
445.   sanchez101
441. If i were a padres fan id be pissed about all the people thinking giles will come to their team. Ive read about red sox, white sox, giants, cubs, dodgers, mariners, braves, and now the A's look to get Giles. Do you really think that San Diego is going to be out-bid by the A's? Everyone seems to think that brian giles will be cheap, so hed be perfect for their team, but if many teams want him, why would he come so cheap? I really only see him staying in SD, his hometown, or maybe Atlanta, with his brother, every other team will probably have to out-bid 5-10 other teams for his services.

I think Giles is a pretty good bet as far as 35 year old outfielers goes. He rarely strikes out, still has good speed indicators, and his power isnt in decline, its masked by Petco.

Jaque Jones would be terribly suited for the dodgers. His career obp is .328 and career slug% is .443. His only real positive is his defense, and outfield defense is probably last on the list of dodger offseason needs. Why jones rather than cruz jr., who is better in pretty much every facet of the game.

2005-09-29 23:40:52
446.   Bob Timmermann
Ehh, I'm not all that angry. It's just that I have to cover a high school game Friday night. I'm going to the UCLA game Saturday night and I'm working Sunday.

But I do want to know when it is acceptable to swing at a pitch? Ever?

2005-09-30 00:06:39
447.   LAT
I know its unlikely, but I really hope the Dodgers sweep the Pods. I hate them as much, maybe more, than SF. I want them to be the first team to ever win a division with a losing record. Let the rest of the Country see how really bad they are (how bad we all are for that matter). I hope St Louis cuts through them like warm butter. Not that I'm petty or vindictive.

Based on the comments above I'd say the Dodgers are getting ready to buy Tracy out. That's a nice way of saying "fire him." Here is how it will play out: McCourt will come out and say glowing things about Tracy and acknowledge his years of service. Plashke will write some incoherent drivel about how this is the final piece of the dismantling of the 2004 division winner and McCourt's soulless ownership continues . In response to this bad press, Sitrick will panic and Frank will make a second statement reiterating how much he loves Tracy but he did not fit in with the GM's long range plans and better to cut ties now-thereby lying the bloody axe on Depo's doorstep. Like a good soldier, Depo will have to take the hit in the press, but what's the big deal its only one more in a string of many. Then when Plashke realizes no one cared all that much one way or the other he will canonize Tracy right up there with John Paul. And if the Dodgers win next year the question will be Jim who? And if they lose, Plashke will have weeks of column space filled.

2005-09-30 00:31:00
448.   Bob Timmermann
With the Angels in the playoffs, the Dodgers should have plenty of cover if they want to get rid of Tracy.

But I thought teams weren't supposed to make big personnel decisions while the playoffs were going on.

2005-09-30 01:05:11
449.   Uncle Miltie
Daily News:
As long as Depodesta doesn't hire Glenn Hoffman or some other scrub I'll be happy.

Fire Tracy, Keep John Shelby, Keep Manny Mota. Wallach and Colborn are iffy. I think I'd lean towards keeping Wallach.

Hire Ron Washington!

2005-09-30 07:17:49
450.   Sam DC
449 Why for the love of Choi would Colborn be "iffy"? Colborn? (leaving aside that he might choose to leave if Tracy goes?)
Show/Hide Comments 451-500
2005-09-30 07:31:46
451.   Kayaker7
449 More fawning over Tracy, by the media.

450 Some feel that Colborn's work with the pitchers have been less than impressive. Derek Lowes HRs and Jeff Weaver's longballs. Some blame the pitchers, but some feel the pitching coach could have done better.

As for Wallach, while some credit him for Beltre's great year last year, some also blame him for Choi's inconsistency and struggles.

2005-09-30 08:18:37
452.   dzzrtRatt
449 A perfect example of why sports columnists will soon disappear. It is perfectly newsless. It basically consists of DePodesta being quoted playing mind games with the writer, and the writer not realizing it. It reminds me of myself when I was eight, trying to get my mom to tell me what she got me for Christmas.

If I want opinions, I'll come here. If I want information, I'll put my search terms in Google. The Daily News is not worth a quarter, or even the time it takes to jump to it for free on the Web, if this kind of drivel is all they have to offer.

2005-09-30 08:23:50
453.   dzzrtRatt
450 I wouldn't just focus on 2005 in evaluating Colborn. Pitching or hitting coaching is not a one size fits all proposition. Colborn's had many more hits than misses. Lowe and Weaver both had their share of tremendous games, and both improved as the season wore on. Is that Colborn? Dunno. I would tend to look more toward his work with rookies, and with reconstruction projects. Without going through the whole list, I think he's batting well over .600, probably closer to .750.
2005-09-30 08:30:32
454.   Eric L
The Plaschke column might be fun the following day if Tracy decides to leave.

I'm guessing (in no order of appearance), we'll see the following items:

- Something about picking managers with computers

- Lasorda and Alston will be mentioned along with tradition, etc.

- The division title, playoff win, etc will be mentioned (like the Daily News article)

- The Angels are better because they are like the Dodgers of old (the continuity thing again).

- He'll somehow mention "Heart and Soul" LoDuca (yet fail to mention that Florida "failed" their chemistry exams this year), chemistry, etc.

Anything else that I'm missing?

On a side-note (and I've brought this up before), have any of the local newspaper guys mentioned that the Angels success this year had a lot to do with their pitching?

2005-09-30 08:32:22
455.   Steve
In the "Moneyball" world, managers carry out the vision from above. They execute the plan as laid out by the general manager. Ultimately, they are replaceable.

Oh yes, the scary Moneyball world, where everything looks...just like it does in every other world, except that Michael Lewis is sunning himself in Hawaii while Steve Dilbeck is still writing dreck for the Daily News.

2005-09-30 08:35:57
456.   LAT
453. Agreed. Over the last few years Colborn has been extremly successful, espically with guys like Lima, Alverez, Gio. They were scrapheap material before Colborn and he made them serviceable MLB pitchers. I can't think of too many who came to LA and got worse. Maybe Brown, and Nomo's second term and those were not Colborn's fault He also deserves credit for one of the best closers ever.
2005-09-30 08:40:00
457.   Eric L
except that Michael Lewis is sunning himself in Hawaii

With Tabitha Soren I might add...

2005-09-30 08:43:59
458.   Steve
The idea that the manager might carry out the GM's plan is one of the more mundane parts of Moneyball.

Colborn's fate is tied with Tracy's. I tend to think that Colborn is better at what he does than Tracy is at what he does (how could he be worse?), but there is not a lot of data on what a pitching coach does.

2005-09-30 09:17:19
459.   jasonungar05
So after reading everything my Friday just got better. There is no way Tracy is coming back.

Lasorda and Alston will be mentioned along with tradition, etc.

So True and everyone including plaschke knows that those two only had 1 year contracts..yet that part won't be mentioned.

I don't see how this is any different than what Sheffield did to us. Excpet Tracy is more "tactful"

2005-09-30 09:36:31
460.   Steve
Page 2 is apparently paying attention.

It reminds me that as many things as there are to criticize DePodesta about, his usual detractors (including, now, Jim Tracy) aren't generally bright enough to develop arguments that make any sense (Matt Welch being a principal exception in this regard).

2005-09-30 10:16:30
461.   Bob Timmermann

Lasorda eventually got some multiyear contracts.

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