Remembering Sandy:

Sandy Koufax made his fifth major league appearance on July 24, 1955 in the second game of a doubleheader against the Braves. With the Dodgers well behind, Sandy pitched in relief and held the Braves scoreless. Unfortunately for Walt Alston, the other Dodger pitchers who went to the mound allowed 9 runs en route to a 9-2 Dodger defeat. In his one inning of work Sandy was flawless: no hits, no runs,and no walks.

Thanks to Koufax, written by Sandy and Ed Linn and retrosheet

wow, i just looked at the standings and realized that cincinnati is going to finish with a better record than the dodgers. cincinnati!!! hahah

Thanks Stan -- these are a lot of fun. I know he got a real big bonus, but did folks at the time know they were on to something big this early?

L.A. Observed reports that Eric Neel's Scully article is out. Anyone seen it?

ah, apparently it's in the oct. 10 issue of ESPN: The Magazine. i'll be sure to look for it.

I have a hard time reading the print version of EPSN the magazine. It gives me a headache. Too much white space.

Nice piece by Rich Lederer; I think it fits well with what Jon and many of us have been saying here. But I spit up my coffee when I read the comment about how Bobby Valentine or Dave Johnson should replace Tracy. Dave Johnson?? Noooooo! Aaaaaaagh!

Doesn't anyone remember that the Dodgers fired Davey Johnson? Why would he want to come back? Why has no other major league team floated his name as a new manager?

Jayson Stark: Easily confused by math

http://tinyurl.com/bpc5p

Thanks, DougS. For the sake of clarity, "the comment about how Bobby Valentine or Dave Johnson should replace Tracy" was made by a reader in the comments section rather than by me in the body of the article. I just wanted to be clear here.

You can read what I have to say about Johnson and Valentine further down in the same comments section.

The Dodgers need 3 doubles today to tie the L.A. season record.

To tie the Brooklyn record, they would need 20 doubles.

I wonder if GMs have a collective list of potential managers. I would hope each one has a short list for his team, but I wonder if there's a master list (unspoken or written) in the back of each one's mind. Seems like when there are openings, the usual suspects' names always get floated immediately.

They just post their resumes on monster.com

RE: 9. I don't understand why this is confusing. And furthermore, I am sick of the Bo Sox.

RE: Tracy, managers, etc. Shouldn't we expect DePo to pick a manager with the sme qualities that Beane looks for? That is to say, a warm body in the uniform who will play the GM's lineup...

Cleveland is on its way to making any math irrelevant.

In game 162, Dusty Baker is batting Corey Patterson (597 OPS) in the leadoff spot in Houston.

With Jose Macias batting second.

And we complain about Jim Tracy.

16 Yes, but is Neifi! batting 3rd?

Better than the Jayson Stark article was the Viagra pop up ad on ESPN (sports themed site) that says "Play hard." Is nothing sacred to the ED people? Where else will these ads pop-up? Home Depo comes to mind. Next to the listing for quick setting cement it could say "Viagra: get hard fast." Orin the lumber section "Viagra: Got wood?"

Sorry to be so juvenile this early but it struck me as funny.

Neifi is in the 8 hole. He's batting behind Murton (OPS 900).

Nomar is batting cleanup.

Elarton is gone from the game. Cleveland was running a huge risk just by starting him

14
I think most of us qualify...

36-game hitting streak for Jimmy Rollins now.

In connection with the Tracy "should he stay or should he go" saga, what I don't understand is why the Dodgers are apparently giving away $700,000. By making Tuesday the drop dead date, they are virtually ensuring that they will have to pay Tracy the money even if he manages elsewhere. Maybe Tracy wouldn't opt out and they would have to fire him anyway, but this way its a certainty that they will have to pay him. That is unless they give him an extension which I don't think will happen.

The other thing I didn't understand was in yesterday's LAT, one of the articles suggested they would let Tracy know on Tues, in part to avoid the embarrassment of his going to manage a team with a lower payroll. What did that mean? Why do the Dodgers care where he goes or what the payroll of that team is.

Despite Carrasco's rise to really good starter out of nowhere, he has given up the lead. Sac fly from Abreu, although a WP K extended the inning

From other stories I've read, the Tuesday deadline was put in because DePodesta is leaving to go to Italy on Wednesday for his sister's wedding.

And the Daily News story by Tony Jackson states that the decision on whether or not to keep Tracy is solely DePodesta's.

25, Bob, the LAT says McCourt will play an "advisory role" in the Tracy decision. I read what Tony Jackson and the LAT are saying as Depo will have to take the heat in thie Court of Public Opinion by himself.

DePodesta knows that with great power comes great responsibility.

A must read:

http://www2.dailynews.com/dodgers/ci_3079372

28

Wow, never heard thoughts like that expressed before....

28 - in the future, please give me a warning like "A must read, but complete drivel".

This was my favorite line:

In the offseason, he then let Adrian Beltre, Steve Finley, Shawn Green and Jose Lima depart, the players who had more to do with the division title than anyone else.

I have to admit, I stopped reading after that gem.

Bob Kiesser is just a notch above the Mike Waldners of the world. He hasn't written anything worth reading since the HerEx folded.

Henson today was one of the few writers who actually detailed how poorly the Dodgers who left have performed this year. It was in today's story.

Of all the midseason acquisitions by all the teams in the majors, the only ones that really made a difference were the Yankees acquiring Shawn Chacon and the Giants getting Randy Winn.

Most teams had to stand pat this year and just patch things together with minor leaguers as need be.

No one forced Tracy to keep sending Mike Edwards and Jason Phillips and Jason Repko out game after game, when there were likely better replacements on the bench for them.

So what implosion is Keisser looking at? Does he think that the Dodgers are going to turn into the Royals?

Columns like Keisser have moved me decidedly into the FJT camp. Keisser wrote that column likely after polishing back a few too many drinks at his desk at the P-T.

Sorry, got a little carried away there.

Might as well go down swinging!

[32] Columns like Keisser have moved me decidedly into the FJT camp

glad to have you aboard, bob :)

4. Ive seen the ESPN magazine article on Vin Scully, its a good read but doesnt really say anything anyone here doesnt already know. Neel does bring up a Vishal, didnt know if it was the same that posts here.

14. Depodesta seems to be more of a consensus builder than Beane, who seemes to like to run the A's like his own personal feifdom. My guess is that Depodesta would rather hire someone with his own ideas and philosophies that complement Depodesta's rather than a warm body; an Earl Weaver-type.

Keisser wrote that column likely after polishing back a few too many drinks at his desk at the P-T.
Mrow!
Got stories, Bob? Do tell.

Joe Heyman in his Newday column today made a couple of interesting statements:

1) One faction in the Dodger front office is already lobbying to hire Orel (would love to know who is in that group)

2) The Mariners recently offered Beltre to the Angels in a trade (didn't say who they wanted to get back for him).

Of course, since L.A. writers usually can't get their facts straight, I'm not sure how much we ought to listen to a NY columnist

If Seattle would be willing to pay 1/3 to 1/2 of Beltre's contract, I'd be happy to have him back. My guess is that wherever he plays next year, he'll have a better season than he did this year (although I doubt he'll ever equal his '04 numbers again).

[35] hey, that's me! sweet.

37 Beltre would get in the way of the bulk of our prospects. We already have Perez and Aybar who don't have jobs, do we really want to force Guzman and LaRoche out of their potential slots as well?

Davey Johnson has been mentioned for the Nats, I think by Tom Boswell.

Back to back no outs doubles for the Indians. Vizcaino in to pitch with the Not-So-Killer Bs up, although still no outs. 3-1 ChiSox

Elsewhere on the playoff front...
Houston has a 2-0 lead after rallying for some runs in the 1st. Now in the 4th

Yankees and Red Sox are scoreless in the 3rd

Phillies have a 5-0 lead in the 6th

Has Choi seen his last AB of 2005? No. He's batting 5th, behind clean up hitter Mike Edwards

3B Aybar
CF Repko
SS Perez
LF Edwards
1B Choi
RF Werth
LF Grabowski
C Rose
P Dessens

43 Um, positions a little mixed up. Aybar at 2B, and Edwards at 3B

39 -
In Beltre you more or less know what you're getting. The road to Cooperstown is littered with can't miss prospects who never made it.

Guzman and/or LaRoche could probably be packaged to get a very good left-fielder or starter.

Having said all of that, I'm not sure that I would really want to go that route, but sometimes I think we tend to assume that once our Jacksonville team gets here in 07-08 that we'll have 5-10 years of World Series flags flying. It ain't necessarily so.

43 -- See? Feel better now?

Edwards hitting cleanup...Tuesday can not come soon enough.

32--Bob, isn't Keisser a SABR member? If so will you be asking for his ouster from that elite and august body?

40--Why do baseball writers continue to unearth guys like Davey Johnson or Jim Leyland? Johnson was actually retired WHILE he had the Dodger job, he just didn't tell anyone. Dick Williams is probably available too, doesn't mean you'd hire him.

In Beltre you more or less know what you're getting.

You do? Please enlighten the rest of us, because what he appears to have done for five years, nobody wants, and what he did for one year, nobody, apparently, can expect.

I gave the Indians bottom 4 hitters that nickname for a reason. Still 3-1 after 6 innings.

Hoston scored another run on an Oswalt single, but Barrett led off the 5th with a homer. 3-1 Astros in the 5th, Neifi up with no outs and a runner on 1st

Boston has a 1-0 lead on a sac fly after the bases were walked loaded

28 - This was my personal fave:

The Pirates, Reds and several other teams are manager-shopping

The Reds found their man already, three days ago. Guess research just gets in the way for busy journalists like Bob.

45 Why would I want to block up to four of the best young players in the organization for a guy who, on average, will hit .265 with 20-25 home runs and a very low on base?

We have four guys and three slots by 2007, why would we want to reduce that to two? Beltre was 21st in OPS amongst third baseman this season (as classified by Yahoo, Casey Blake shouldn't really count) behind such luminaries as Vinny Castilla, Rob Mackowiak, and Chone Figgins. How much better do you really think he can be? I had some of the lowest expectations out of Beltre out there, and he didn't even live up to those.

Cubs 1 and 2 hitters OPS combined: 1.197
Derrek Lee: 1.083

35. I see your point concerning management personalities.

What is truly bizarre is the apparent feelings of betrayal that the sportswriters read into this entire season. We're talking about building a baseball team, right? Not coalition building like zee Germans are working on:

Step One: Sign best available players with money available. (GM & owner's job)

Step Two: Put them on the field in a somewhat cogent manner, and hopefully with some concept of a work ethic. (Manager's job)

If injuries get in the way, then I guess we're all screwed, huh. What's the problem?

The most pressing concern for me is how my analyst & I will weather the PTSD of this season during the winter. Jon? This is a psychological outlet, yes?...

Do I sound frustrated?

Neifi singled for men at the corners, but Maddux grounded into a DP. Patterson doubled for a 3-2 score

Ryan Church had a 3 run homer, 5-3 Phillies

Yankees threatening, 1st and 2nd, 1 out, for Bernie Williams

49 -
Let me re-phrase my original statement to read "In Beltre you rarely know what you're getting". I just took another look at his lifetime stats and I could live with 2000 and 2004, but the other years are pretty dim.

On the other hand, can you guarantee me that Guzman or LaRoche will do better? What if they brought a really good starter or left fielder from a team that couldn't afford him and you could couple that with Beltre
having a decent but not spectacular year?

56 We can acquire Beltre during the next presidential race ;)

Would you be willing to pay six to nine million dollars for out third base situation this year? Of course not.

Dodger third basemen have been more productive offensively than Beltre.

57 -
Considering who the potential candidates for both major parties may be in 2008, I think we might be better making Beltre President and keeping LaRoche at third.

51. Maybe Jon can enlighten us here, but it just seems like there are a lot of sportswriters that just dont work that hard. Most the articles i read from mainstream sportswriters i could have easily written and say nothing all that new or insightful, just kind of repeating what everyone else says.

56. It would be nice if we could get a 900 OPS outfielder, but i cant think of anyone like that that would be available.

The seasons of Toronto and KC have come to a finish, as Toronto beat the Royals 7-2

45 - You mean we won't? =(

Bill Mueller has homered, 2-0 Red Sox

Cubs tie the Astros 3-3.

3 straight singles score another for the Cubs, 3-3 tie. Phillies fans are likely goig wild

And Neifi puts the Cubs ahead.

El Duque walks Jhonny to lead off the bottom of the 8th. Hafner coming up, for what could be his last AB of the season...

Sorry, Pronk.

Full count and Hafner...flies out to deep left. Martinez up

Ortiz singled in another run, 3-0 Boston. Scott Proctor now pitching

Jason Lane ties it up again in Houston with a homer.

Anyone else think Maddux is getting squeezed BIG TIME?

Why wouldn't Dusty pinch-hit for him there also? is the Cub bullpen really THAT bad?

Baker says he will give Maddux every chance he can get to finish with a .500 record.

Scrap Iron thinks he is about to get a Kirk Gibson moment out of Bagwell. In the 6th inning.

73 - then why wouldn't Dusty let Maddux pull a Herges to get to 15 wins?

Tribe down to thier last 3 outs...

Manny hit a 3 run homer, 6-0 Red Sox. Even if the Indians can come back in the 9th, things don't look good

What's Bagwell's contract status for '06? Is he coming back?

So it's 3 outs away from turning the Yankees-Red Sox game into a Columbus vs. Pawtucket game.

Nice throw, Neifi.

The Astros have retaken the lead, 5-4 on a 3 base error

I scored that single + 2-base error.

On the other hand, can you guarantee me that Guzman or LaRoche will do better?

Can you guarantee me Beltre would do better, and do so justifying a salary ratio of 40 to 1? Remember, Beltre went about .255/.300/.420 this year. To contrast, Choi's .257/.338/.455 got him sent back to Siberia.

If Players were not known by their names, but instead known as Player A or Player B, baseball as a game, would, unfortunately, be much better off.

78 He's guarunteed a lot of money to essentially be a PH ($17 mil). Chances are they might try to trade him to the AL, as his fielding is supposedly really slipping

DAMMIT Neifi!!!!

Hey Steve, Gigantor actually had an impact on the wild card race, sort of...he held the Phils scoreless for 1.1 innings

82 I was listening to the Astros announcer, Gameday says force attempt + error

Now 6-4 Astros on a WP. I'm thinking Neifi will not sign with Philly this offseason

Indians have 2 outs left, Boone and Blake due up

83 From here on, I will be referred to as Poster A.

Boone walks, now up to Blake

Tribe gets the tying run to the plate.

87 - um....Hobos, who is our shortstop right now? Maybe Bob would like to take this one...

Blake strikes out swinging on 3 pitches. The Indians' season is in the hands of Grady Sizemore

One more out...

Weak grounder to second, the Indians have missed the playoffs =(

Corey Patterson is just bad.

What a pratfall by the Indians, losing six of their last seven.

AL bracket is:
BoSox-ChiSox
Yanks-LAAofA
Right?

Is there a reason why all of the Cubs starters but Todd Walker are playing?

It seems like he's the Choi of the Cubs.

So they figured out a way to make me root for the Angels? So be it.

Colorado and the Mets have both ended their season, as the Rockies managed an 11-3 win

Walker has had a bad leg recently. I'm surprised he was even able to pinch hit recently.

Though I understand that my loyalties come more as a threat at this point.

I still want the Angels to lose. They are now the Giants of the American League to me.

102 Ah, makes sense. Though my expirence with him on my fantasy team the last two years has lead to the Choi comparison.

100 I have the same problem. Go NL!

Abreu doubles in another run, Phillies up 6-3. Phillies fans are rooting for the Cubs, will they let them down?

When it comes to the AL first round, I will be rooting for the red teams.

There's no winning for me in the AL, as it's simply four evil teams.

Boston is probably the lesser of all those evils.

The Cubs were saved by Neifi back in 1998:

http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B09270COL1998.htm

For those watching the Dodgers game, Perez did not help himself for next year with that first play. Wasn't particularly easy, but it would have been nice to make the play

That should be enough offense for the Padres today.

Looks like once the "F" was posted at Fenway Park, out went Edgar Renteria and it was time to say hello to Alex Cora.

Mike Rose threw out a runner? He actually had a worse percentage than Phillips...

Detroit is down 5-4 with an inning left. If they win and the Dodgers lose, then the Dodgers have the #6 draft spot.

Detroit now down 6-4. Looking at their lineup, they have little to no chance of winning, which means if the Dodgers win, they get the 7th pick. If they lose, it's a tie. Anyone know what the tiebreaker is for draft position?

It's not like this is the NBA or NFL and one draft pick is going to make the difference.

116 Well, it could make a difference if Matsui is put on waivers

Will MLB ever get the draft right, and televise the first round, at the very least?

The commentator for the Astros actually disparaged the bunt. Is this a first for any commentator?

No time to settle in or read the comments, but does Dusty Baker have to watch out for Philly fans coming by his house after leaving Maddux in to hit with a runner on third? Wouldn't Maddux have had his 15th if he'd come out there and the Cubs had held on, or was it too early?

Maybe the Dodgers could trade up and draft LeBron James.

120 Maddux could still get his 15th...loss. He's 13-14, so his streak was already over

How soon before Phillips/Myrow pinch hits for Choi? I can't see Tracy managing his final game as a Dodger with Choi on the field and Phillips on the bench for the entire game.

Will Tracy lead the team onto the field for a group handshake with SD when this game ends?

Cubs have life. Top 9, 1 on, no outs

Ben Grieve...still in baseball?

Why would we want to watch the baseball draft? I don't even think it's interesting to watch the NFL or NBA drafts. If I wanted to watch something like that, I'd just go and ask at a local elementary school if I could drop by at recess sometime and see which kickball teams they form.

1 out now. Todd Walker PHing

Possible DP, but Bruntlett drops it, men on 1st and 2nd, 1 out for Corey Patterson

Patterson, to be followed by Jose Macias!

Controversy in Astro land. DP ball and Bruntlett (2B) drops ball. Cubs have 1B and 2B, 1out

Another grounder to Everett, but he decided to avoid Bruntlett this time. 1 out left

now second and third, 2 outs

Phillies season in the hands of Jose Macias? Too bad for them...

Phillies season rests on Jose Macias.

Goodnight Philly. Breakout the golf clubs

Bruntlett catches the liner, No games tomorrow. I'm going to be really bored...

NL bracket:
Padres-Cardinals
Astros-Braves

At least Macias hit the ball.

And with Derek Lee standing on deck....

The Cubs should have tried batting out of order and hoped nobody noticed.

122 Thx -- and so what in Choi's name was Maddux doing in there batting?

Now I can say everything I wanted to happen this season fell apart.

This will be fourth NLDS matchup between Atlanta and Houston. The Braves have won two of those.
This will be the second Cardinals-Padres matchup. The Cardinals won that one.

The Angels won and unless the Yankees rally, they will have home field. Second ALDS matchup between those teams.

First ever postseason matchup of the differently colored Sox!

Astros win. . .yuk!
Even though I like a good series, I wouldn't mind seeing Pods and Astros get swept.

This October will just plain suck. I have no idea who to root for. Whatever happens, I guess I'm forced to root for the NL team.

Nice play by Perez

Nice play in the hole.

145 - Great minds think alike.

i don't care who goes to the world series now, but i hope the NL team wins. unfortunately i don't think they will, unless MAYBE it's st. louis.

134, 135, 136 - and this is when I say "screw you guys, i'm goin home!"

...or Hobos and i jump on the Astros bandwagon cause I want to see Clemens and Pettitte pitch in a WS against the Yankees.

Bob, hasn't every NL team that has played in a Series, played in one against NYY?

OT: I know there's a few Rams fans out there. I didn't watch the Rams game today, but check out these stats:

15 rushing attempts
62 pass attempting

Nice balance, Martz.

149
Indeed that is the case.

So if the Astros were to go to the World Series and face someone other than the Yankees (which almost happened last year), then the spell will be broken.

The Dodgers have played in the World Series against all but one of the original 8 AL franchises. They've never faced the Tigers.

Our clean up hitter doubles to break up the no hitter

4 more doubles to tie the record! You can do it Dodgers!

151 and the 2003 Marlins helped us out with this one juuuust a little.

Anyone notice that Clemens got his 341st win and 4500th strikeout last night? and then Maddux went today with 300-3000.

Has there ever been a matchup of 300-3000 before? Or two teammates with 300 and 3000? (yes, I guess the 1986 Bosox can count here)

Yeah he Doubled! But hes still on second and he's got Jason G. Great! 3 Jason Outfield today. Who could make Eaton look like a strike-out pitcher--very few teams.

Myrow in, Choi is done

Wow. Can't say I'm going to miss Tracy. We can't double switch out Grabowski, can we?

On Gameday, the Padres lineup has Young in center, but when they go on defense Roberts is listed on the diamond.

Choi ends up .253/.336 (or so)/.453 in 320 at-bats.

159
Including a total of 2 HRs in July, August, September, and October.

So where the final out of the 2004 regular season be recorded:

Seattle, San Francisco, or San Diego?

Perfect end to this season. Fox2 just lost the feed to the game. Blank screen

160 - Yet in a three-way tie for second on the club.

Have there been any rumors of Tracy reuniting with #16 in Florida next season?

Does Jeff kent really want to not play. I doubt it.

Two of the players tied for second in home runs, J.D. Drew and Hee Seop Choi, have combined for two home runs since July 3rd.

Just another walk for Aybar...

What are we supposed to say after that Aybar at bat? All together now...

Just another double switch for Choi.

168- ©Uncle Miltie

165. I'm guessing if Kent wanted to play he would be playing. He is no doubt tired and the only reason to play is to pick up that 30th HR which is unlikly in Petco. I can't blame Tracy for Kent's not playing and even if it was Tracy's call its the right call-get Aybar more playing time.

repko's allowed to strike out as much as he likes, but not choi.

How has Aybar looked playing 2B the last two games? Acceptable? Unacceptable?

Why even start Choi if you're going to double switch him? That's just really disgusting what Tracy's doing.

173- good, though he hasn't had a lot of balls hit to him. He did turn a DP nicely.

Randy Winn comes out of the SF game to a standing O. Fans call him out for a second tip of the cap. Nothing against Rany Will but he is not that good. Next year those fans will meet the real Randy Winn.

Shame on both us and them for encouraging this torment. If I were a vengeful man I would hope they suffer in a few years!

Choi hit seven homes in a four-game stretch, ending June 14.
Since then:
77 games, 37 starts
159 ABs
16 runs
39 hits
9 doubles
2 triples
2 home runs
13 RBI
21 walks
3 HBP
41 strikeouts
.245 batting average
.344 (or so) on-base percentage
.365 slugging percentage

178 homes = homers

D.J. Houlton is trying to go down in a blaze of glory.

Common recent theme from both Depotesta and Vin: The pitching doesn't matter a bit if we can't score any runs.

McKeon has retired, another opening for Tracy

Outstanding play, on both ends.
Every season, no matter how poor, needs a highlight.

All right-- We needed something for our honor. Rose had time to brace.

182
Yeah, that's what I asked about in 164.

That's why Repko is in there

I know you guys talked about this before the game, but I just looked at the Bob Keisser column. Wow, what a piece of alibi-laden crap.

I will cherish this line above all others:

"You (Jim Tracy) will be missed if you do go, but rest assured in knowing you'll be in good company as one of many former Dodgers who got out before the implosion."

BEFORE the implosion???? What do you call 91 losses, Bob? You can be a Tracy-lover (a fraternity exclusively consisting of daily newspaper reporters and ESPN broadcasters) and still give him at least a portion of the blame for this season. Keisser makes him look like an innocent bystander.

Will Jim Tracy be missed any more than Bill Russell or Davey Johnson?

Bob & Marty,
The Keisser slam(s) was a low one.

Don't get me wrong, I never cared much for Keisser when he was with the HerEx, but the both of you are taking turns kicking a dead body in the huevos? The two of you are better then that. At least I thought you were.

Fallout,
Thanks for posting the link to Keisser's article.

To the rest of you,
Agree with it or not, hate the author of it or love him to death--it does point out a lot of things. Especially that there are others who follow the team can and do think differently then the number crunchers of this blogsite. Neither side is right nor wrong, its just a lot to palate in this losing season. My worst Dodger year ever. I never once really felt good about this team, even during the 12-2 run.

One more K and Eaton matches his career high of 12.

187. Ratt, I think you undersetimate the average fans opinion of Tracy. While most people here can't wait to see him go, I think the general population likes him. If he is indeed let go on Tues, I suspect most (with Plaschke's help) will view it as killing off the final peice of the 2004 team.

Tommy,
Did you notice that I apologized for my comment about Keisser? It was out of line.

I didn't like the column though.

190
Bob - How many double switches, er, doubles, do the Dodgers need to set the record?

Bob,
No I didn't, so my apologies to you.

I didn't think before I hit submit, which I normally do. I was pretty much heading for the libel department there and I apologize to Jon for posting the comment.

49 & 83

You take the total number of years played and throw out the best and worse seasons, then divide by the number of years left.

Beltre is an excellent defensive 3rd baseman. One cannot compare a 3rd baseman to a 1st baseman on just numbers. Everyone who can hit and not field are tried at first base...mostly the older players in the NL after they lose their defensive skills like Piazza.

188- As much as I dislike Tracy, I don't think I'd put him in the same company as Davey Johnson

The Dodgers need four more doubles to tie the L.A. record.

I think that such a thing is unlikely.

188. Bob, I suspect people will miss him more than the others because Depo/McCourt's moves have been viewed as controversial.

The last inning will not come from SF. That game is final 3-1 SF.

200 Seattle is having problems getting an out in the 8th there, meaning the Dodgers should finish before them

I have never thought that everything that DePodesta is right. But I think that the last few months, Tracy has demonstrated that he just doesn't want to work with the overarching philosophy of the organization. And his recent harping about how the team would be better with last year's players shows that he is really out of step.

Keisser's article just suffered from having factual errors in it that didn't support his opinions. It was just lazily written and not thought out well.

So if you're not going to evaluate players by their statistics, how else are you going to evaluate them? Do you give everybody a MMPI and place them accordingly?

The guy with the ball is a jack@ss. It's not like having Mike Rose's first homer will have value, and are home run balls really that special?

Has the Mike Rose homer stunned everyone into silence?

203 No different from any other ball at least.

191 Short of a survey, I guess the question of fan opinion on Tracy is conjecture either way, but my impression is he's done nothing to capture the fans' fancy. The 2004 triumph was such a short-lived pleasure, I doubt too many fans linger over Tracy's role in it.

It's more typical for fans of a team that has collapsed like this one to blame the manager--it's not just a geek preoccupation. I can't recall a time when fans rallied around the manager after a season of such total failure. It would be unusual if it happened this time. Writers like Keisser are letting their dislike of DePodesta cloud their judgement, to Tracy's undeserved benefit.

The fact is, Tracy has little to no track record as a winner. Davey Johnson--I don't miss him, but he came here after having turned around three losing franchises and turning them into repeat playoff participants. Lasorda won seven division titles while he was here, including three in his first six years, and was on the way to the wild card when he retired.

Tracy's done nothing in his five years to give him any kind of permanent claim on the job. Is it all his fault? No, of course not. But has he done anything to transform his circumstances, spin gold out of dross? Maybe last year, a little. Will we have to continue hearing alibis if Tracy's fired? Yes, but at least not from him.

the season ends with jason phillips at first! how fitting.

Is the guy with the ball the guy with the Dodgers jersey? What a jerk!

202. Bob Timmermann
"So if you're not going to evaluate players by their statistics, how else are you going to evaluate them?"

That's the job of scouts. ie: When a scout sees a 16 yr old playing high school baseball does he care about BA,OBA, fielding pct?

When a scout looks at a big league player he take a closer look at a player to form an opinion beyond just numbers that can be had from a computer.

208 Hopefully, some fan has Tivo'd this game. If anyone has, grab a screen shot of Rose's ball stealer. Blow it up, post it on the web. Someone is bound to rat him out.

Mike Edwards with another gold glove play. He has been outstanding at 3B today. Hopefully, Tracy takes young Mike with him.

210 I could pull it up on MLB.TV after the game.

Interesting-- the guy at second was out, not that it matters-unless it says something about psychology.

Just remember, Edwards was the only guy who didn't roll over for Eaton.

And AP finishes under .300. Please let this season end on something of a high note, as we pinch hit for our cleanup hitter.

Perez ends the season batting under .300. His average has really dropped in the past month.

Olmedo with a professional at bat.

209

So you subscribe to the theory that DePodesta pays no heed to scouts?

Ledee could be the last batter to come to the plate this year (regular season at least)

Last out of the 2005 season coming up!

1 strike away from Jimbo taking off the Dodger uniform.

1 strike away from Jimbo taking off the Dodger uniform.

Good bye, Jimbo. Don't let the door hit you in the (syn for donkey) on the way out.

Nice at bat by Ledee.

One more batter, guess Werth will be the last batter of the season

Anyone want to make a bold prediction of what Werth is going to do? Take a wild guess.

It would be more fun if Grabowski were the last batter!

Wow... Ledee is in such bad shape they're having Jackson run for him. That Ledee kept playing should score him some H&S points with the writers.

More from Vin on scoring runs.

I enjoyed the intelligent discussion of the regulars here. Hope to see you next year.

Game Over.

Werth makes contact!

Werth hit it well, a fitting end to the season I suppose

228- they don't like him because he was a Depodesta pickup

well, that's that. it was nice to spend the season here at DT with you fellows, even if following the dodgers wasn't always so fun.

The last time the Dodgers won just 71 games in a season, they won the World Series the next year.

Choi finishes with an OPS under 800...

Well. We'll get 'em next year, guys.

[235] awesome, how's that for precedent! :)

Na na na na, na na na na, hey hey hey, goodbye tracy.
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!

"Patience is something I possess, and it's paid dividends" -Tracy, noting one of his better qualities

His patience with Choi was astounding...

The other three times the Dodgers won 71 games in a season, the team sported a worse record the next year. Twice it was significantly worse.

Duaner apparently presented yesterday's game ball to Broxton in celebration of Broxton's first win. See, this team has plenty of heart...

What should I do on the first Monday in October?

I'll do what I usually do. That is, go hear arguments at the Supreme Court.

Why? Because I'm really Ruth Bader Ginsburg.

Jaime Jarrin, Pepe Yniguez, and Manny Mota will all do post season coverage in Spanish. I wish Vin could also represent the Dodgers...

Can't wait for Joe Morgan and Joe Buck and whoever else gets to do it

243 You can celebrate never having to see Dreifort's name on the payroll ever again. That's what I plan to do.

I also plan to take an exam on infinite integrals, arc length, and various other fun things at the same time as Monday Night Football (thus I'll be without sports tomorrow). I can't wait...

218. Bob Timmermann
"So you subscribe to the theory that DePodesta pays no heed to scouts?

No. But, too much heed to his computer. He's out of balance.

Bob, I couldn't have answered it better then Fallout has, but I will say this, because I'm critical by denouncing the sabermatics here on this site, doesn't mean I don't think it has relevence. I just think that there are too many here that wiegh in on the numbers WAY TOO much.

The 1988 team: has anyone here figured what the sabermatics was of that team? On paper, I'm sure they looked like a .500 team or less, but they did more with less and with CHEMISTRY then this team ever could. The chemistry wasn't so much in the talent, but the WILL to want to win. And win they did!

SHE IS GONE!!!!!!

The problem lies in the vast majority who believe in this saber stuff, only know numbers and nothing about curveballs. You have a lot of people that want to wax the poetic about VORP and all of those intangibles but couldn't even tell you one thing about swinging a bat or what a player might be doing wrong--not that I could, but at least I try. For as many games as we all watch on T.V.--all of us--because we know we aren't at the ballgame in person because we are all TOO BUSY typing out saberstats on the internet, you would think we could tell certain aspects with replay and close-ups and all of the tricks. You would think once in a while we might have someone here talk about mechanics--we don't.

No, Instead we criticize by the numbers.

(End of season rant coming up)

Look, I'm no fan of Tracy other then he seems like a decent human being that has endured over the last years with an ownership group that is clearly not worthy to be owning a major league baseball team. His game calls have been truly puzzling, but the previous two seasons, he did things that got people thinking big again. EVeryone wants to fire him, but everytime everyone calls for his head, they offer no idea for a suitable replacement! What is going to mak a good manager for the 2006 LA DODGERS? That he follows every move of a GM that seemingly only goes by computer stats and throws everything else out the window? Do you actually think this is a good and attractable work environment to be in?

I think the words in the last days about Jeff Kent are proof of this.

The Team; the ownership, the entire front office staff--they all suck because it starts at the top and goes from down the chain of command from there.

The only person worth salavging in Vin Scully.

Fire them all I say.

Whoever put together the video tribute to the 2005 season that ran after the game on FSW2 apparently wasn't ordered to make Milton Bradley a non-person. He looks like the star of the season.

This game was kind of like the season for me. The result was dismal, but it had a nice moment for Mike Rose. The whole season was like that--some nice moments for players who are just starting out, some nice moments also for players who won't have long major league careers. The injuries and holes in the roster gave opportunities to players we normally wouldn't have seen.

The epitaph for 2005 could be: "They didn't win, but they were scrappy."

Close, it should be, "The didn't win because they were crappy."

249...so fire Jim Tracy, and make it snappy!"

247

Tommy,
But it's just a different way of looking at how good a player is. There is always a balance to be struck. I think you are overreacting a bit to a bad year.

If you are looking at building a baseball team on the model of the 1988 Dodgers, I wish you well. You can't do it because what you consider to be the team's strengths were only visible AFTER the fact.

The big play of the 1988 World Series was supposed to be based on advice from Dodgers advance scout Mel Didier who said that Eckersley would always try to throw a slider on a full count to a left handed batter.

Except it turned out that Eckersley hadn't gone to a full count on any left-handed hitters in 1988.

And while the 1988 Dodgers won the World Series, the 1989 team returned most of its starters. The two changes were at first where Eddie Murray replaced Stubbs and Woodson and Willie Randloph took over for Steve Sax at second.

The rotation was pretty much the same except that Tudor was hurt and Leary was ineffective, but Ramon Martinez stepped in.

And with all that, those gritty, overachieving, good chemistry Dodgers finished 77-83.

I just had a thought, and I hate to make this politcal, but here goes....

The McCourt Los Angeles Dodgers and the Bush Administration:

We (Dodger Thoughts readers and participants) should look at the way we, as fans handle this ownership, the same we as Americans handle the Bush administration.

--How they got into office/ownership was questionable in the first place.
--Some of us are too freely, ready to excuse the way the team is run on a day to day basis.
--Everything they have done since they got into office/took over ownership has been one disaster after another.
--Prices have alarmingly risen while wages/payroll has decreased.
--Have led us into a battle that we will never win.

Looking forward to 2008--FAST!

253
Another ignorant bush basher.

247 - exactly! How can anyone run a business actually analyzing statistics and making judgements based on quantifiable results. In fact, I say we throw out all the computers and the dreaded spreadsheets (scary, aren't they?). Let's get someone competent in here who can sign people based on the size of their heart and their pretty mechanics. I want someone who will slide into first base to beat the throw (even if it means he gets there slower). I want someone who will dive at a ball in the outfield (even if it routinely turns singles into doubles). Now that's heart and will to win. I want a GM with a high school education and an absolute fear of computers so he doesn't dare try to use one of these new fangled spreadsheet thingies. Let's get the Dodgers back on track.

Tommy, where do we find this guy?

253

Speaking as someone who isn't a big fan of the current president, I don't see many (or any) of those parallels at all.

Bob,
I'm not saying rebuild the 1988 Dodgers. I never said that once. I'm stating that those guys won because of what? (your answer here)

And yes, I've made no bones I'm reacting to a DISASTER year. And it isn't going to get better (IMHO)

The 1989 Dodgers were also a team that was filled with injuries. Lets face it, Gibson was never the same was he? Now I know you'll be able to show me a number that will refute this, but the want to win was gone. Many always want to credit one person with 1988--Orel Hersheiser. Yes, but what about Gibson? What about Hatcher and his timing? etc.

TEAM EFFORT.

1989 didn't have that.

Dssrt Rat, yes, lets make it really snappy! :)

The 1989 Dodgers were also a team that was filled with injuries.

Hmm.....

Hmm.....

Sounds familiar?

I'm stating that those guys won because of what? (your answer here)
(Pitching.)

We have managed to make it through an awful season without political rhetoric. Let's see if we can keep it up.

tommy, if we won in '88 because of some intangible "will to win", but not in '89 because that same "will to win" was gone, even though it was the SAME group of guys pretty much...

then how on earth do you locate this mysterious quality and build a ballclub??? and if you can't use it to build a ballclub, then what are you supposed to do instead?

Dave,
I'm not saying throw out all of the computers in the Dodger--hurrumph--organization. I'm talking about the people that have all of the answers on this site. A computer is only as good as how the information is being used and what is being inputed, as well as being retrieved. I can tell you this--if some of you think you have the same formulas as DePodesta, your kidding yourselves.

Bob, You need to stop reading the saber pages and go back and look at US News! :)

251. Bob Timmermann
"But it's just a different way of looking at how good a player is."

When you speaking about baseball players, statistics are an incomplete way to evaluate a player. Do you chose a wife by statistics? :)

A good example is the Nakamura. When I read his numbers and heard that he won Gold Gloves in Japan I thought, Wow. He also hit well in spring training. I'm thinking,"Wow." But, when I saw his swing I thought, "Ut ooh."

In 1989, Jeff Hamilton's 35 doubles led the team and was good for sixth in the league.
I did not know this until now.

[263] you know who's got a pretty swing? jd drew.

I'll leave the politics alone from here. I was just trying to be funny.

The point that is if they were the same in 89' as they were in 88' even with the injuries, something was missing from that ballclub. Even when they were at full strength, they didn't even compare to the season before. Something was greatly missing.

I'm sorry a great majority of you don't understand that. Because it would make the end of this season a lot more palatable. It ended for me in February. Before the season even started.

The point that is if they were the same in 89' as they were in 88' even with the injuries, something was missing from that ballclub.
Hitting was missing. LA's offense dropped off by 74 runs, from 628 to 554.
The pitching staff improved by eight runs.

263 - yeah. Sheffield has a bit of a hitch, too. Glad we were able to unload him. Same with Pedro. He was way too frail to hold up.

o/= These are a few of my favorite swings... o/=

Hitting was definitely missing. TIMELY HITTING. Can you find out how many men they left on base that year? From my memory, it seemed like it was horrible year.

Bob, Your standing at the plate 2-2 count and a man on first, your a righty push hitter, but the pitcher is a lefty: What kind of a pitch are you expecting at the plate?

(bob, it's a trap! ask for more information! who's the pitcher, how's his fastball, what's his out pitch!! also what's your batting average? how are the fielders positioned?)

270 - does said lefty pitcher have heart and solid mechanics or does he have to rely on an overpowering fastball? This might factor into the formula Bob plugs into his spreadsheet.

btw tommy, you didn't address my question from [261]

Dodgers among the league leaders:

AVG - Kent 27th at .289 (leader D. Lee at .335)
Runs - Kent tied for 9th with 100 (leader Pujols with 129)
Hits - Kent 21st with 160 (leader D. Lee with 199)
Doubles - Kent tied for 22nd with 36 (leader D. Lee with 50)
Triples - Repko tied for 36th with 3 (leader Reyes with 17)
Home Runs - Kent tied for 16th with 29 (leader A. Jones with 51)
RBI - Kent 8th with 105 (leader A. Jones with 128)
Total Bases - Kent tied for 13th with 283 (D. Lee led with 393)
Walks - Kent tied for 19th with 72 (Giles led with 119)
Strikeouts - Werth tied for 13th with 113 (Dunn led with 166)
Stolen Bases - Perez tied for 36th with 11 (Reyes led with 60)
Caught stealing - Izturis and Robles were tied for 13th with 8 (Pierre had 17)
OBP - Kent was 17th at .377 (Helton led at .445)
Slugging - Kent was 19th at .512 (Lee led at .662)
Sacrifice Flies - Ledee was tied for 16th with 6 (Carlos Lee led with 11)
Sacrifice Hits - Lowe and Penny were 21st with 9 (Vizquel led with 20)
HBP - Choi and Kent were 26th with 8 (Guillen and Jenkins had 19 each to lead)
IBB - Kent was tied for 23rd with 8 (Pujols had 27)
GIDP - Kent was tied for 6th with 19 (Casey had 27)
Extra base hits - Kent was tied for 17th with 65 (D. Lee had 99)
Ground outs - Izturis was 17th with 167 (Pierre had 269)
Fly outs (including popups and line drives) - Kent was 6th with 195 (Carlos Lee had 233)
OPS - Kent was 19th at .889 (D. Lee was 1.080)

Bob, Your standing at the plate 2-2 count and a man on first, your a righty push hitter, but the pitcher is a lefty: What kind of a pitch are you expecting at the plate?
Bill James said this is exactly the kind of B.S. he had to endure when he was peddling his knowledge to an industry that no interest in learning anything new, especially from outsiders.

266. Tommy Naccarato
"I'm sorry a great majority of you don't understand that. Because it would make the end of this season a lot more palatable."

Don't let others bother you. Some of the answers on this board are just off the wall like #268. Some aren't reading but only writing. Others...

(not necessarily speaking of today's posts)

276 - how can you use an example like Nakamura not being able to hit because you saw his swing and not accept criticism? The majors of full of guys with bizarre mechanics who are top performers. Maybe Florida would be willing to unload D Willis. He's got some pretty crazy mechanics.

There were all kinds of possible reasons why someone would have had reason to be skeptical about Nakamura right from the start. His stats in Japan weren't incredible, he had a major leg injury, he was at or past his prime already, etc, etc.

I think, for some reasons, both sides of this debate in baseball want to claim victory or defeat in absolute and total terms when, like most things in life, that if you blend together two schools of thought, you can come out with a better end-product (See "Red Sox, Boston, 2004").

[275]

but that's the thing, the two types of knowledge aren't mutually exclusive. one is acquired through coaching and experience, and comprises the nuts-and-bolts of how you execute the game, and the other is about finding and evaluating strategies for building a ballclub and playing baseball in the manner that will win you the most games.

Vishal,
Since you agree with me. I have to say this, "I like the way you think!"

Dodgers among pitching leaders in NL
Wins - Weaver 12th place with 14 (Willis 22)
Losses - Lowe 3rd place (K. Wells 18)
ERA - Lowe 17th place 3.61 (Clemens 1.87)
Games - Sanchez tied for 2nd with 79 (Eyre 86)
Starts - Lowe tied for 1st with 35
Complete Games - Weaver tied for 6th with 3 (Carpenter 7)
Shutouts - Lowe tied for 4th with 2 (Willis 5)
Saves - Brazoban 13th with 21 (Cordero 47)
IP - Weaver 8th with 224 (L. Hernandez 246.1)
Hits - Lowe tied for 9th with 223 (L. Hernandez 268)
Runs - Lowe 6th with 113 (Milton with 141)
ER - Weaver tied for 6th with 105 (Milton 134)
HRs - Weaver tied for 2nd with 35 (Milton 40)
HBP - Weaver led with 18
BBs - Lowe tied for 38th with 55 (K. Wells 99)
Ks - Weaver 23rd with 157 (Peavy 216)
Winning percentage - Weaver 24th at .560 (Jorge Sosa .813)
Total bases - Weaver with 373 (Milton 426)
Balks - Lowe led the team with 2 (Capuano and Myers had 4)
Wild pitches - Sanchez tied for 16th with 7 (Webb 14)
Steals allowed - Weaver tied for 8th with 20 (Maddux 32)
Caught stealing - Lowe tied for 17th with 6 (19-25, leaders had 11)
Ground outs - Lowe was 2nd with 371 (Webb 388)
Fly outs - Weaver 5th with 256 (L. Hernandez 288)
Ground ball/fly ball ratio - Lowe 2nd at 2.82 (Webb 3.60)
WHIP - Weaver 9th at 1.17 (Pedro Martinez at 0.95)

Vishal,
It's sounds as if your all set-up and ready to disagree with me on what ever question I submit! :)

I've said this before--I like the young guys we have and do think we are on some sort of track. I don't think DePodesta is doing THAT bad of a job either. But I also think he is probably under the gun to produce for an owner that is totally clueless. Thus you have the perfect explanation for the 2005 Los Angeles Dodgers. I find it ironic that when you take a person like Milton Bradley, whose intensity is not much different then Kirk Gibson's. He is a leader or, a lead figure in helping the team become intense on winning.

Then you take a Mickey Hatcher who brings on another kind of personaility--one of having a good time while playing baseball. Remember between some of the innings of certain games, Hatcher and a bunch of players getting out and washing the Nissan bull pen vehicle? Remember the shaving cream pie in the face routines? Who played that "Mickey Hatcher/Jay Jonstone roll this year?

I know that stuff doesn't amount to much to some of you stat wise, but when your basically living with each other everyday of the season, your going to have to cut the ice and let loose and have a goodtime. When I was in baseball in high school, I had a coach (manager) who actually went out of his way to make sure he had one inspirational guy, one crack-up guy, one serious guy; and a cast of others. It worked great too, because we won, we won a lot too and eventually got to the CIF finals where we did in fact lose, but it was still great. So I have to admit, I learned a lot from that. The next year, my coach retired, and the new coach, well he didn't believe in any of that other stuff, including me! So losing a good pitcher and a good catcher and a couple of other seniors, plus a lot of character players resulted in the team coming in second to last the following year in league play. Those guys that stayed around for all of it, well they hated the entire year, coach, season, team, team mates, etc. That's what being organized means in baseball. That's why they call it organized baseball. This Dodger team was far from organized.

I don't remember these Dodgers doing that once this year, and while its hard to have a goodtime when your losing and getting hurt and putting-up with a social retard for an owner, you have to play past all of that. Last year, it was a goodtime to see Adrian Beltre finally come into his own and make the season for many of us. All the more reason to see why numbers shouldn't always dictate but should be utilized for a certain direction. But computers cannot calculate personalities. If they did, They would have killed us humans off a long time ago.

All of that stuff amounts to loosening-up, (which some of us on Dodger Thoughts should do and I'll even point the finger at myself too.)

So, I think a lot of this stuff comes from the inability to loosen-up and have a goodtime playing baseball. It's the greatest game ever invented, and its our pastime. Why not enjoy it. (Golf is a Sport, Bob)

The Dodgers need to have a good time playing baseball. That's what this team is missing. It sure wasn't a very good time watching it this year was it?

That's what DepoDesta should be trying to do, create a team that can look past the personalities, enjoy the goodtimes and win. That takes character and it takes talent. But they all work together.

277. DaveP

I think that you missed my original intent. It was statistics vs scouting. I was brief in my statement because I was only making that point.

To elaborate. Since the Dodgers needed a 3rd baseman I was surprised that they sent him down to the minors after spring training. After all, his numbers were good.

Sometime later I saw him in a game and like most noticed his unusual swing. I thought that might be a tip off on why he didn't make the club...and why so few teams seemed to be interested in him to begin with.

After seeing a few at bats, I could tell that he had trouble hitting the outside pitch. True, it was not enough ABs to make a decision on but at least I got a feel for what the problem was. Others had already decided that he was not a big league hitter.
Now I know a (not the) reason why.

"statistics vs scouting" the point.

Thanks Fallout.

At least I know it isn't falling on deaf ears! :)

EXACTLY! They should all work together, not against each other. I can only hope that Bill James--the guru of all baseball would believe that.

How many world series did Bill James manage or play in anyway?

Where can one find his playing stats?

I had to google the guy to find out who he was! ( Bill James )

Fallout,
I just did this, and I found out a interesting tid-bit for the explanation of 88'-89' guys:

Bill James Rule #14# When a team improves sharply one season they will almost always decline in the next.

So there Bob, there is the reasoning.

I have the most sneaking suspicion Bill James popularity came from the Fantasy Leagues. Please tell me I'm right, oh please!

[282]aw, don't take it that way tommy. i'm not set up to disagree (though i might kinda not see eye to eye with you on this). really i just wanted some more clarification.

and the thing you bring up sounds to me like that classic chicken-and-egg problem; does good chemistry breed winning, or does winning breed good chemistry? or sometimes does it not even matter(see: the cold group of mercenaries known collectively as the 2005 New York Yankees)?

i tend to think that with winning comes chemistry, more than the other way around. that's why, when the dodgers were winning during differnet parts of last year and early this year, milton bradley was "intense" and "passionate" and he got his team "fired up". and then when we were losing, all of a sudden bradley is "angry" and "troubled" and "uncontrollable".

i mean, the mickey hatcher types abound, all across baseball. there are countless stories of clubhouse pranks and loosey-goosey attitudes, attributions of naked batting practice to getting out of slumps. baseball is a superstitious sport, and this stuff happens on almost every team. but only a select few win, and i suggest that ultimately the responsibility for that lies not in some mysterious sense of camaraderie but in the fact that a particular ballclub's parts work well together and they have the good fortune so that enough things fall their way. the good-feeling and personality stuff falls in line along the way.

Today's word is "synergy".

[285] i believe bill james works for the red sox, and they won the world series last year. does that count?

and playing stats? does a person have to have playing stats in order to credibly discuss the game? if so, what are yours, might i ask? :)

mine are pretty bad. something like .150/.220./.370, but it was the first time i'd played in 12 years and the league was way above my head. i don't have a lot of credibility anyway, though, hehe.

I agree with that. (BTW,my smiley face was meant to show you I knew of the seriousness, or lack thereoff)

But to let you know, the 8 weeks I was stuck in New York (stuck on my own accord, but that's another story for another time--all golf related) and as I had reported here back in May, June & July, the lack of any real baseball coverage outside of the Bronx & Flushing Meadows. It was all Yankees and a little Mets 99% of the time, and seemingly anytime the Red Sox would lose, they gladly reported it.

So I was inundated with Yankee garbage, morning, noon and night.

Those Yankees, who at the time they were losing most every game, well, they showed them hamming it up for the T.V. all of the time. There was the casual shaving cream piein the face incident by Jeter to Matsui; It made me sick--and shortly therafter they started winning and Giambi started hitting.

So, while they are my thoughts, just like Bill James thoughts, I realize that he is a very devoted individual to keeping his stats, but I have the funny feeling that any personality to those stats is by Mr. James conjecture. Just like us!

"Synergy" it starts with a good pitching staff.

290 " i don't have a lot of credibility anyway, though, hehe. "

You lost me. Why sarcastic?

Vishal,
Yes he does work for the Red Sox, and many of the moves the Red Sox made last year wre in fact against the Bill James brand of Baseball Guruism. Many of them were in fact his ideas too.

Could it be that he was working with them as a team, being part of the team? Maybe he was the Geek Guy, Theo Epstein needed for team SYNERGY! :)

[290]

oh, that wasn't sarcastic! i'm just saying that i have no real expertise at ALL. i'm just a guy that likes watching and talking and reading about baseball in his free time. nothing more, nothing less.

Same here!

[294]

and i also meant (somewhat lightheartedly) that i'm not very good at hitting, so if good playing stats impart credibility, i'm certainly lacking :)

Um, so I guess we're not doing too much of the "lets all give ourselves a big ovation" thing 'cause its the end of the season? Heck, the freakin' Nationals got and gave a standing O today, after getting swept at home to close the season in last place, and after a second half collapse that was just withering. I'd think we could at least match that.

Tommy, Fallout, I really think the folks you're arguing with agree with most of what you're saying. But knock off the baiting and namecalling. Please.

297 Well, maybe not "most," but a lot anyhow -- certainly I expect a lot of folks here would love to hear more about what pitch is likely to come when a righty push hitter is facing a lefty with 2 on in the late innings.

Wait a second. I don't think I gave Keisser a low blow. I said he was a bad writer and he is. A good example is that column.

He claims the team would be better with all of the departed players yet cites no evidence. In fact it's impossible to cite any since it's all speculation. All you can look at is this year's statistics. If you read Henson's article today, you'll see that every player (except for Encarnacion I think) has had a worse year this year than last. All you can argue is that you THINK they somehow would have been better at Dodger stadium. That's an absurd argument. Does that mean Kent would have been better if he'd stayed in Houston? And better still if he'd stayed with the Giants? Would Vlad had been better in Washington? Maybe. But it's ridiculous to argue that.

Keisser also makes the mistake, as other columnists have, of faulting Depo for dumping Finley and not crediting him for getting him last year. In fact, Depo looks very smart, to me, for getting Finley, milking him for everything he's got and then letting him go.

I just don't see how you can say that was a well thought out, well written column.

299 since I seem to be the only one left, and since I cannot get a single thought out in less than 3 comments, 298 was sincere. I and I imagine a lot of other readers here really would love to learn more about the players' game or the inside game that is pretty hard to know from the outside. I hope you and the others who bring that perspective will share it often.

Sorry, Sam. That wasn't pointed at you. It was actually a response to 189. I should have been more clear.

297,
Who was name calling?

Marty,
I think your absolutely right regarding Keisser as a writer. He hates Notre Dame, or at least used to. I hate him for that reasoning alone.

As far as the other, well, I just don't think it's right that we kick a person down for his compulsions.

Knowing a thing or two about compulsion, I can tell you that it affects every aspect of your life both personally and professionally. Yes, he doesn't have the same view as the majority; It's a discerning, negative view there is no doubt about that but for you--an employee of the LAT, I think it would be in the better interests--YOUR best interests to abstain from being critical of someone in the same business who is clearly affected by a compulsion and is an easy target.

That being--now that the season is over, lets go golfing soon.

300 was obviously not directed at 299. I'm off to clear my head.

Bill James played an instrumental role on the field in Boston winning the World Series:

http://tinyurl.com/93wv3

287 James' popularity came from his annual Baseball Abstract, which he started publishing in 1977 (although didn't get good sales for a few years). Not sure how popular fantasy leagues were back then

Heck,
I was critical of Keisser and the same organization pays me every week.

Bob,
Foiled, once again!

Realizing that, that was my point.

Sportswriters putting down sportswriters?

Oh, the humanity! (imagine the Hindenburg going down in flames)

Marty -- I wrote 303 before I saw your 301, if that's not clear. This is turning into who's on first.

Tommy -- maybe namecalling isn't the right word (although werthgagne certainly called you a name!). It's more the sweeping characterizations of what "the majority" thinks and the sharp comments re Bill James and fantasy league geeks. And you've just brought a pretty hard "you're with me or you're against me" stance to this discussion that seems to not be leaving much room for efforts like those made by Bob and Vishal to find common ground.

Anyhow, just my take, and not really a big deal at the end of a long season. I just personally came by expecting some warm fuzzies and was disappointed to be in the middle of that same old argument. G' night all.

Bob, Since we few, or us so many few are the last ones here, if you could:

How do I do:

Bold comment:
Link to previous comment:
Italics:

I'm not a sportswriter. If you see me complaining about IT types, then it's inside baseball.

Sam, It wasn't meant that way at all. It was just normal discussion, or at least that's the way I thought it was. Apologies if it offended in anyway.

The Bill James thing, well, that was a joke in regards to my post regarding my high school baseball team. The pictures I've seen of James would put him exactly as that, just like a picture of me would.....never mind!

Once again, I'm sorry if it offended.

If the L.A. Newspaper Group is unhappy with me for what I think about Bob Keisser then they will have to get somebody else to keep stats at Friday's San Fernando vs. Verdugo Hills game.

Sam, the warm fuzzies were very brief.

Marty, Do you know, or did you know Jeff Silverman?

No Tommy, don't know that name

Got it.

He is a friend that used to work at the HerEx, but now lives in Philadelphia.

I just thought you may have crossed paths with him at one time. He's a great friend and a really good guy. He used to write Page Two for the Examiner

Said I was leaving, but haven't made it yet.

Tommy -- thanks for 312 and no worries.

I'll answer this much for Bob.

To bold you put a "*" before and after the sentence or word you want to bold. Can't do more than one paragraph at a time, I think.

To link a comment, put the comment number inside square brackets -- "[ 301 ]" but wihtout the spaces between the bracket and the number.

Don't know italics, I'm ashamed to say.

I have a paper copy of the final Herald Examiner sitting in my nightstand table here in DC. Would be hard to explain why, but there it is.

317. Sam DC

Thanks

Sam,
We'd have been more warm and fuzzy at the end of the year, but normally after a loss, we like to point fingers.

And I lost my temper very early in the day. I used to be so level-headed. It took me to game 162 to lose it.

317 Thanks!

I actually have two or three of them that I have stored at my parents house. It was a said day in LA when it happened. There hasn't been a better sports page since.

Ah, the Her-Ex. Stunning to think it's been gone for over 16 years. That was a paper you could look forward to reading every morning. Even when it was being outrageous, it was fun and had the right spirit. The Daily News is trying to be an in-your-face kind of paper now, but they come off as a bunch of guys with 'roid rage (at least on the news side). You got the feeling the people at the Her-Ex were having fun. You get the feeling the people at the Daily News are reaching and they're mostly just pissed because they're underpaid. Bring back the Her-Ex and its fantastic building!

321I couldn't agree more.

According to my friend Jeff, they were a fun group. A real family atmosphere. If you go to LA Observed, they have a HErEx tribute page linked over there that's interesting.

I thought my little 2005 epitaph--about 150 posts back--was pretty warm and fuzzy: "They didn't win, but they were scrappy."

237
Fanerman had a good attitude as well.

323. dzzrtRatt

Maybe a little too warm and really fuzzy.

(leave off the "S")

325 With as much as Repko played, they were high in scraptitude ratings, as well as craptitude ratings. Of course they were nowhere nears scrappy as the Angels (and despite what you may think, the Angels were scrappy enough to win without Vlad and their pitching)

I am just back from Safeco. Sam asked what others saw in Sandy when he was starting out.

The Dodgers brought Sandy to Ebbets Field for a look see in September 1954. Rube Walker, who was back-up to Campy at the time, said after catching him, "Whatever he wants, give it to him. I wouldn't let him get out of the clubhouse." Al Campanis graded him out as an A plus fastball and and A plus curve.

One of my favorite Sandy stories involved Al's son, Jim Campanis, who briefly was a catcher for the Dodgers in the 60s. I gather Jim had not caught Sandy before. Sandy threw a curve, and Campanis rose from his crouch because he thought the ball was going over his head. Campanis never got a glove on the ball; the ball ended up hitting him in the knee.

By the way, the source for the above is from Jane Leavy's book.

Stan from Tacoma

It wasn't just Repko. They were all pretty scrappy. It doesn't make up for lack of talent, but it made them more entertaining to watch than your average 91 loss team. That's why it doesn't seem quite real that the Dodgers ended up with the third-worst record in the NL. It seemed like they were almost contending, kind of.

This is not a 'homer' attitude. I didn't enjoy other losing seasons much at all.

317

Thanks

what is the general opinion on trading kent? i would only do it if a knockout prospect was involved

Henson's piece is up, with some more weird quotes, mostly from Tracy. Here's one tidbit:

Tracy and DePodesta both said the Dodgers gave maximum effort throughout the season. However, a scout from an opposing team who watched nearly every Dodger home game said he was unable to get accurate times for players running to first base because they weren't going full speed.

http://tinyurl.com/9y6ak

331 I wondered about that one as well. So this guy was at every home game and no Dodger ever ran to first at full speed? All year?

Absurd.

331 I think he was always timing Phillips, and didn't realize Phillips was at full speed

"I don't like to sit here and grade myself. I'm not good at that,"

No kidding.

"I'm not going there. That would compare and contrast me with the GM, and I don't want to be part of that."

Didn't seem to have a problem with being part of that a couple days ago.

#330, I would trade Kent and quite frankly I hope DePo does. I don't like Kent, though I recognize he is a good player. Kent for an outfielder or third baseman would be fine with me. Kent for a reliable starting pitcher would be even better.

Stan from Tacoma

335 - compare that with Jack McKeon today:

"Since I'm the leader, I'll take full responsibility for the poor year we had."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=251002128

I'd be open to trading Kent, but I'd want something in return that the Dodgers could use next year, not in 2008 (we already have enough htalent for that point). If Aybar, Perez, Robles/Izzy, and Navarro are all in the same line up, there's a lot of power lacking. At that point, we couldn't afford to start Choi, Werth, Young, etc and hope they do well. I just really like the advantage of a power hitting 2B, which is why I'm rooting for Dewitt or Denker to be our future 2B, rather than Aybar, Perez, or Abreu

No, no. Tracy should only be compared to such great leaders as Napoleon and Eisenhower.

339 I don't like the Napolean comparison. He came back after losing, only to get ousted a second time. Unless Tracy's resigning last year counts, that could mean Tracy will be back...

So Jim Tracy is going to manage the Elba Exilers next year? Or maybe the Waterloo Warriors?

Bob, he would probably have a better record with those teams than the Pittsburgh Pirates.

Stan from Tacoma

As a leader, I'm thinking Tracy is sorta like Thomas Beckett.

More like Samuel Beckett.

Waiting for Repko.

A farce.

I'm pretty sure Pittsburgh is exile. Or even Florida, as I've heard it can be very lonely at home games in Dolphins Stadium

Thomas Becket succeeded a man named Theobald as Archbishop of Canterbury.

And a guy named Theobald (Ron), led the American League in sacrifice hits in 1971 with 19.

So there's the baseball connection.

I doubt any Dodger is invited to Dennis Eckersley's upcoming wedding at Pebble Beach. Maybe one of 'em will try to slide in through the back door.

http://tinyurl.com/bml8g

I hope people find it amusing.

DePodesta has said that he will fire Tracy rather than let him exercise the opt-out clause in his contract.
I know I keep saying this but why fire him if he is going to opt out. Its the difference of $700,000. Wish I got severence when I quit.

Can the problems be repaired in an off-season? Tracy declined to go into detail, but said, "Anything is fixable and there isn't anybody who believes it more than the guy sitting behind this desk."

Who speaks like this?

(Other than Ricky Henderson, of course)

349 LAT,

According to the reports, the Dodgers will only be on the hook for that $700,000 if Tracy doesn't find employment elsewhere.

It's kind of like insurance for JT. If he is hired elsewhere, which is very likely, then he gets paid by that team and not the Dodgers.

Why again are people talking about trading Kent? He was 22nd in baseball in VORP, and 3rd (but closer to 1st than 4th) among secondbasemen. The guy is a superstar. Not a good player, but a superstar. You don't trade those guys while trying to win and when they only make $8M a year. The other guys worthwhile to trade him for wouldn't be available, so let's just appreciate him for putting up some sick numbers while being the only decent hitter in the lineup.

348 I like the "Writers Blame DePodesta" line. Pretty much the anthem for the season.

349 I've read somewhere that if Tracy manages another team next season, LA isn't on the hook for the $700K. Not sure how true that is, or whether it would be the entire $700K or just something partial. Then again, it's the cost of two Repko's, so it's not like losing it would be the end of the world. But yes, it bothers me that Tracy could get financially rewarded for this.

350 If Rickey had said it, the quote would have been, "Anything is fixable and there isn't anybody who believes it more than Rickey does."

"If he is hired elsewhere, which is very likely"
---------

But is it, really? There are three openings that I can think of right now (PIT, FLA, TB), none of which has expressed interest in Tracy, and none of which Tracy should be interested in anyway, if he's smart.

"That would compare and contrast me with the GM, and I don't want to be part of that."

Bizarre on so many levels.

Nixon-like: "We could do it, but it would be wrong."

But also, implicitly competitive with DePodesta. Tracy doesn't seem to understand they have different job descriptions. In his mind, it's not possible to say that both of them share the blame for the season. It's 'I win, you lose.'

This is so far beyond a firing offense, I don't know what else anyone would need. I assume this is what's going to happen, and if it doesn't happen, it's not just disappointing--it's masochistic. I don't care if he was Casey Stengel; you can't manage someone whose mind works this way. I really doubt he's ever going to manage anywhere again. He's cracked.

Thanks Icaros. Sounds more like alimony than insurance. Your wife remarries your off the hook. Of course, I would take the 700K and head to Cabo for the year curtesy of the McCourt Family.

He should put the $700k in the bank, something conservative. It might have to last awhile. At least until he publishes his book, "Lou Gehrig, Jason Phillips and Other Great First Basemen I Have Known."

Isn't this basic employment contract law? If Tracy takes another, equal job, for equal or more pay, there is no damage for the breach of contract, and therefore, no damages.

#352, I would like Jeff Kent traded because I don't like Jeff Kent. I did not like Daryl Strawberry when he was with the Dodgers. Ditto Kevin Brown. Would Kenny Rogers be a good starter for the Dodgers in 06? Maybe so, but I don't want him anywhere near Dodger Stadium.

Stan from Tacoma

324 - Thanks Bob. After finally getting into true "acceptance", things just became easier to stand. While I wish a lot of things would have happened that didn't, there's at least a lot of stuff to look forward to. This should be an interesting offseason (at least in a few regards), but I can't wait til next year.

Daryl Strawberry was a selfish, money grubbing drug abuser who squandered HOF talent on nothingness. Kevin Brown, though often effective, was also a supremely selfish player, and was basically unmanageable. Jeff Kent was stalwart and reliably excellent all season despite the fact that everything was crumbing around him, and he's been that way his whole career. To mention Jeff Kent in the same context as Strawberry is obscene. To mention him in the same context as Brown is less of a stretch, but I still think inaccurate. But if you don't like him because you don't like him, you're perfectly entitled. Who do you think they should get to replace his bat in the lineup?

Jeff Kent for Barry Zito?

[344] "scrap's last bunt"?

353 - Detroit is now open as well, and it fits with the Midwest locale we've all been trying to run him off to.

And where does Detroit get off, firing Alan Trammell? After 3 seasons, especially since he only had 1 more year on his contract? What is this world coming to?

Yet somehow Dombrowski holds onto his job? I don't know how long he's been in charge, but I think he was responsible for the AL-record 119 losses in 2003, not to mention the brilliant signings of Ordonez and Percival. I wonder if he was the guy that signed Higginson too?

And Rich Donnelly was fired by Milwaukee leaving Jayson Stark without anyone to give him material for his column.

Next year, we could have Kirk Gibson managing Detroit and Orel Hershiser managing L.A.

OK, not really, but it's fun to think about.

The '88 Dodgers certainly seem to have produced a disproportionate share of ML coaches and managers: Hershiser, Gibson, Scioscia, Hatcher, Griffin, Shelby, Dempsey.

Also three MLB announcers in Gibson, Sutton, and Fernando.

366 - Why "not really"?

Couldn't you see both of them being top 3 candidates for the job, or do you think Detroit will go with a "professional manager"?

For that matter, will the Dodgers? Maybe they could just trade ex-managers, and send Trammell to LA and Tracy to Motown.

367
I said "not really" because other than wild speculation on this site, I have no reason to believe that the Dodgers are considering Hershiser for the manager's job.

Sorry too much coffee. I sound a little snippy.

369

After yesterday, you sounded down right collegial.

Spoken as the guy who tossed the stink bomb into the discussion yesterday. Still feeling bad about that.

"Bob Timmerman: Behind the Mask." A Lifetime Movie.

add another n.

The Tigers firing Alan Trammell is exactly why I hope they don't hire Orel. "Dodgers Fire Hershiser" is a headline I don't need to ever see.

"Dodgers Fire Jack Clark" was more like it.

Just when i was all for firing tracy, the player (Gagne) comments rattled me a little. I need to regain focus.

When he was putting up a 13.14 ERA in 2000, I doubt many Dodger fans had a problem with the headline "Dodgers Fire Hershiser."

Yeah things got a little heated in here. A lot of pent up frustration it appeared.

Wait... what happened? Do I need to go back and read this thread?

Bob Keisser wrote another one of those "if they hadn't dumped Lima" columns exonerating Tracy and slagging on DePodesta. It seemed to get a lot of posters' goats (including mine). And then there were others who thought it was accurate. Speculation about aspects of Mr. Keisser's private life entered into it, to which some took offense. The comments were regretted publicly, in a gracious way. However, the content of Mr. Keisser's column continued to spark debate, and at times it got a little testy. I've seen much worse, though.

I've seen much worse, though.

I dunno...especially in Jon's New World Order (his troll crackdown a month or two back). It got a little personal.

378 & 379

Here is the article:

http://www2.dailynews.com/dodgers/ci_3079372

For inquiring minds. :)

"Troll" meaning us? Not bad.

I would agree, it was the worst since Jon's crackdown, but I'd seen worse before that. One Sunday, there was this guy insulting everyone pompously, declaring that unlike everyone else, he was applying the virtues of intellect to his statements. I got mad and implied that he was sitting on a toilet while he was posting, and then said he was waiting for a Benny Hill rerun to come on TV. (The guy was in England.) I should never have done that. (He took more offense to the Benny Hill comment than the comment about the 'loo.') I was glad for the 5,000 miles and layers of anonymity on that day. He was mad.

353

Eric,

In saying Tracy is likely to get hired next season, I meant for any job, be it manager or bench coach or whatever. He might not get paid $700,000, but I'll be pretty surprised if he doesn't end up somewhere.

Rather than considering Hershiser for the soon to be open managerial position, how about "special assistant to the GM" or something along those lines. It's win/win. Hershiser gets valuable experience and the Dogers bring him back into the fold.

383 - Still need a manager though.

381 - "Troll" described the onslaught of newbies that instigated a lot of inappropriate discussion, which roped in a lot of otherwise sane regulars.