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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Hero Worship Time
2005-10-07 11:27
by Jon Weisman

Chicago at Boston, 1 p.m.
Los Angeles at New York, 5 p.m.

* * *

ESPN Insiders can read Eric Neel's article on Vin Scully here in a neat magazine-come-to-virtual-life format. Dodger Thoughts readers Ross Porter and Vishal are among those interviewed, though I dream that a third interviewee is also a reader. According to Neel, Scully spends "three or four hours every game day surfing the Net."

* * *

The strongest defense that I've seen in the print media for the Dodgers letting Jim Tracy go has come from Paul Oberjuerge in the San Bernadino Sun.

The Dodgers fired manager Jim Tracy this week, and from the media hue and cry you'd have thought the club shot Lassie. ...

Jim Tracy's ouster is no crime. In fact, it was required to get the organization pulling on the same end of the rope.

If the Dodgers are 71-91 two years from now, that's when fans should march on Chavez Ravine. We're guessing DePodesta's Dodgers are far more likely to be 91-71, once he has his team in place. Including the guy who makes out the lineup card.

Comments (260)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2005-10-07 11:48:59
1.   Bob Timmermann
Paul Oberjuerge has been the only guy in Southern California who has had the least bit of respect for DePodesta. Of course, he's read by about 50,000 people in the Inland Empire if that many.
2005-10-07 12:07:27
2.   Eric Enders
Make it 50,001. I thought it was a really good column, although I disagree with the part about the Dodger manager needing to be a Lasorda-style celebrity.

I like how he breaks the unwritten rule about baseball writers not criticizing other baseball writers. If more people did that, we might be getting somewhere.

2005-10-07 12:09:50
3.   Eric Enders
I love him like my grandfather, but the last time Vin Scully bought a new sport jacket was:

A) 1955
B) 1963
C) 1965
D) 1981

2005-10-07 12:16:39
4.   Vishal
oh, i bet he bought something in '81. in fact, i bet he allows himself to buy a suit at least after every dodger world championship. so fashion-wise, he's only 17 years out of style now :)

since we're talking about vinny... if people want, i can post what i wrote to mr. neel back in august. i know some people posted theirs a few months ago but i didn't get to it. shrug jon?

2005-10-07 12:17:35
5.   Vishal
darn fairpole. i meant that shrug more as a stage direction than as bolded text :)
2005-10-07 12:25:12
6.   Bob Timmermann
I'm sure that Oberjuege has been on the sidelines with me covering a prep football game.

That puts him in an elite group with writers like Steve Henson and Jon Weisman.

2005-10-07 12:26:50
7.   Peanuts in My Shoes
6 Bob, I can only hope it was an Alta Loma Braves game.
2005-10-07 12:33:32
8.   Bob Timmermann
I've only covered a handful games out in the Inland Empire. It has to be playoff games.

I've been at one game with Jon.

I did a lot of games with Steve Henson.

2005-10-07 12:36:10
9.   Eric Enders
But never looked at his face...
2005-10-07 12:37:15
10.   Bob Timmermann
Well, it was about 7-8 years ago.

And we tended to view each other in profile. And if you ever talk to me long enough you will realize that I rarely make eye contact with anyone.

2005-10-07 12:37:46
11.   Eric Enders
I did notice that, actually, now that you mention it.
2005-10-07 12:40:21
12.   Bob Timmermann
Well, that was only because I found you physically repulsive.

It was nothing personal. :-)

2005-10-07 12:41:30
13.   Bob Timmermann
Also, Eric, it was a SABR convention so I was scanning the room for the numerous hot-looking women that you encounter at those affairs.
2005-10-07 12:41:42
14.   Eric Enders
I couldn't make eye contact with Bob because I'm nearsighted and couldn't see way up there. ;)
2005-10-07 12:42:44
15.   Eric Enders
I'm sure C. Perry and C. Tan appreciate the sentiments.
2005-10-07 12:43:45
16.   scanderbeg
I left the Oberjuerge article with the impression that it does not really matter who the new manager will be, because they (the manager) are going to be little more than a figurehead and a (figurative) pawn to perform the bidding of DePo.
2005-10-07 12:44:37
17.   Eric Enders
Well, without the negative connotation, that's pretty much what we want, isn't it?
2005-10-07 12:46:01
18.   Bob Timmermann
At the Toronto convention, there was a panel on women in baseball. One of the panelists was a young woman who had been a minor league umpire. Once the panel was over, she had developed quite a following in the lobby.

But, everyone knows a SABR convention is the ultimate "meet market".

2005-10-07 12:50:40
19.   gregsmokler
I don't know if anyone posted this but Baseball America has an ASK BA section with some Dodger-related questions, among them the Dodgers' draft position (7th!!!) and how LaRoche stacks up against the other cream of the 3b prospect crop...

2005-10-07 12:51:24
20.   Telemachos
16 I'm guessing that what Depo wants isn't so much a blind figurehead as someone who won't directly contradict his personnel moves; somebody who will agree to be on the same page and then manage accordingly.
2005-10-07 12:55:34
21.   Bob Timmermann
You mean Page 26 don't you?
2005-10-07 12:55:35
22.   Icaros
18 Shouldn't that be "meat market"?
2005-10-07 12:56:03
23.   dzzrtRatt
20 I'm also recalling scenes from "Moneyball" where Beane is mocking Art Howe for non-saber-iffic decisions (players too) that were not a function of disloyalty so much as cluelessness. So it's loyalty, followed by educability. A smart, open-minded, qualified manager who understands the job and will be loyal--I figure any and all of the known candidates fill that bill. I'm a little afraid of Collins only because he seems a bit tightly wound, but I wouldn't complain if he got it.
2005-10-07 12:58:07
24.   Adam M
19 - Speaking of women in baseball, it looks like the Dodgers could draft Eva Longoria (SS, Long Beach State). Cool!
2005-10-07 12:59:04
25.   Eric Enders
I wonder if DePo will make the next manager stand on the top step of the dugout.
2005-10-07 13:01:26
26.   Bob Timmermann

"Meet market" makes it doubly punny!

Seriously though are many female SABR members, but they are just outnumbered by a serious margin. At my very first SABR convention, I found out, after about 15 minutes, that I was seated next to Dorothy Mills, the widow of Harold Seymour, and purportedly did the bulk of the research for him.

Cecilia Tan is a great writer and at the Denver convention when she mentioned what her day job was to the rest of the people at my table at the banquet, it was a mass Danny Thomas-like spit take.
In 2003 she got me, through her brother, some incredibly good seats for a Dodgers-Rockies game at Coors.

2005-10-07 13:01:29
27.   King of the Hobos
The AFL finally has Gameday available. The team you want is Phoenix (assuming you're following the Dodgers...)

Laroche batting 3rd, Kemp 5th, and Abreu 9th (and playing SS)

2005-10-07 13:02:48
28.   SMY
I saw Evan Longoria play in the Cape league this summer. He was pretty awesome. It'd be cool if the Dodgers ended up with him (or Eva).
2005-10-07 13:03:27
29.   popup
Vishal, I would be interested about your thoughts about Vin. As a matter of fact I would be interested in any thoughts about Vin by anyone on this site.

I am looking forward to the day when I see Jon post a long entry from his interview with Vin. For that matter I would like to see Jon write a Vin biography. Include a CD of excerpts from Vin's broadcasts with the book and I think Jon would have a best seller.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-07 13:05:54
30.   King of the Hobos
Matt Lecroy made it through waivers somehow. He's younger than Saenz, can be a 3rd catcher, and crushes lefties (.306/.404/.621 in 124 ABs). This makes me believe the club is dedicated to keeping Saenz (who hit .251/.338/.548 against lefties), or just doesn't want to pay Lecroy (2nd year of arby)
2005-10-07 13:10:08
31.   Icaros
26 See, I thought "meat market" made it doubly (or triply) punny. Of course, I have a sick brain.
2005-10-07 13:12:57
32.   Icaros
Can't the Dodgers just take Stephen Drew back with them after the AFL is over?
2005-10-07 13:14:36
33.   Adam M
"younger than Saenz" - woo hoo!

I think the Dodgers are committed to keeping Saenz until some AL team offers him decent money to DH.

2005-10-07 13:15:17
34.   Eric Enders
Since today is Hero Worship day, I thought I'd post this... A few years ago I was given the "task" of writing an encyclopedia entry on Vinny. Most of it will be familiar stuff, but perhaps some of it isn't, so here goes....


Scully, Vincent Edward (b. 29 November 1927 in New York, New York), literate baseball announcer who, in more than 50 years with the Brooklyn and Los Angeles Dodgers, used evocative descriptions and an eye for detail to establish himself as the most outstanding and influential broadcaster in the game's history.

The son of Irish immigrants, Scully grew up in the Washington Heights area of northern Manhattan, just across the Harlem River from the Bronx. His family was poor, but not destitute. Scully's father, a traveling silk salesman, died when Scully was five, and he was raised by his mother Bridget and her second husband. He frequently attended baseball games at the nearby Polo Grounds, and by the time he was eight, the red-headed youth had formally declared his intention to become a sports broadcaster. He attended Fordham Prep School, graduating in 1945, and entered Fordham University on a partial scholarship that fall. He earned spending money during his summers by delivering mail and milk, and by polishing silverware in the kitchen of an upscale hotel.

After his freshman year at Fordham, Scully joined the Navy, in which he served a year before returning to the Bronx campus. Scully was active on campus, where his activities included singing in a barbershop quartet, writing a sports column in the school newspaper, and covering Fordham football games for The New York Times. He also played center field on Fordham's baseball team. After graduating in 1949, Scully found work as a broadcaster with WTOP, a CBS affiliate in Washington, D.C. He was soon introduced to Red Barber, the famed Brooklyn Dodgers broadcaster and sports director at CBS, who agreed to give Scully a tryout broadcasting a college football game. Barber was impressed by Scully's performance, and in 1950 he offered the 22-year-old a $5,000 salary to join the Dodgers as an assistant broadcaster. Barber, known as the "Ol' Redhead," quickly took the young redhead under his wing. "Red was my teacher… and my father," Scully recalled. "I don't know— I might have been the son he never had. It wasn't so much that he taught me how to broadcast. It was an attitude. Get to the park early. Do your homework. Be prepared. Be accurate. He was a stickler for that."

The new position afforded Scully the opportunity to witness baseball's integration drama firsthand, as Brooklyn won four pennants during the 1950s behind the baserunning exploits of Jackie Robinson. In 1955, Scully broadcast the clinching game in Brooklyn's only World Series triumph, a moment he would always cite as his most cherished. In 1957 Barber, Scully's mentor, left for the New York Yankees, leaving the 29-year-old Scully as the Dodgers' head broadcaster. By then, Scully had blended Barber's folksy style with his own talent for detailed description, creating the unique broadcasting style for which he would become famous. The most intellectual of baseball announcers, Scully's broadcasts were marked by frequent literary references, as he aptly applied the words of William Shakespeare, Cole Porter, or Eugene O'Neill to explain some aspect of baseball. ("A humble thing, but thine own," he might say of a weak infield hit.)

Scully accompanied the Dodgers in 1958 when they left Brooklyn for Los Angeles. The team spent its first four seasons there playing in the Los Angeles Coliseum, a colossal football stadium ill-suited for baseball, which left many of its 90,000 occupants straining to see the distant action. To remedy this, fans soon began bringing transistor radios to games, and Scully's vivid description of the action made him a cult figure of sorts among Angelenos. Even after the team moved into the more intimate Dodger Stadium in 1962, the practice of bringing radios to the ballpark continued, and it later spread to other major league stadiums. The Dodgers, meanwhile, won three pennants in the mid-1960s, with Scully artfully describing the exploits of Sandy Koufax, Don Drysdale, and Maury Wills. The most famous broadcast of his career came on 9 September 1965, when Koufax pitched a perfect game against the Chicago Cubs. "There are 29,000 people in the ballpark, and a million butterflies," Scully announced as the ninth inning began. "I would think that the mound at Dodger Stadium right now is the loneliest place in the world." Scully's work during that game is considered by many to be the best radio broadcast in baseball history.

By 1969, Scully was so popular that some mentioned him as a possible candidate to succeed the embattled William Eckert as baseball commissioner. That never happened, but Scully's increasing fame enabled him to dabble in other areas of broadcasting while simultaneously working for the Dodgers. He hosted an NBC game show, "It Takes Two," and a short-lived variety show, "The Vin Scully Show," which lasted 13 weeks on CBS in 1973. He also broadcast occasional football, golf, and tennis events on CBS from 1975 to 1982. In 1983 he left CBS to become the top baseball announcer for NBC, where for seven years he broadcast showcase events like the World Series and All-Star Game to a national audience.

In the 1980s and 1990s, as the baseball broadcasting industry changed to cater to the shortening attention spans of its viewers, Scully refused to budge. While most broadcasts featured teams of two or three announcers, Scully usually insisted on working alone, arguing that it made for better communication with the audience. "My approach to broadcasting has always been like I'm talking to a friend," he said. And though he was a loyal company man off the field, while on the air Scully steadfastly refrained from the home-team rooting engaged in by most broadcasters. "The fan is seeing things with his heart," he said, "but my responsibility is to see things with my eyes." In 2001, Scully broadcast his 52nd season of Dodger baseball and earned a reported $2 million annual salary.

Scully married Joan Crawford, a model, in 1958. They had three children before she died on 26 January 1972, at age 35, from an apparently accidental overdose of prescription medication. The next year, Scully married Sandra Schaefer, a secretary with the Los Angeles Rams, with whom he has one daughter and two stepchildren. Although he frequently complained of the loneliness of baseball road trips, Scully enjoyed filling his off-seasons with exotic vacations, including trips to Europe, China, Australia, and Egypt.

Scully has received virtually every award a sportscaster can win. The most prestigious came in 1982, when he was given the Ford C. Frick Award, a lifetime achievement award for broadcasters presented annually by the Baseball Hall of Fame. Scully's other honors include four citations as the national sportscaster of the year, a Peabody award, an Emmy award for lifetime achievement, and an honorary doctoral degree from Fordham, where he delivered the commencement address in 2000. In 1982, Scully earned the ultimate sign of acceptance in Los Angeles: A star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame.

Scully's 52 years with the Dodgers is by far the longest term of service any announcer has ever had with a team. Through 2000, Scully had broadcast 25 World Series, including 12 on network television, and 12 All-Star games. He also had called 19 no-hitters, believed to be a record. On 3 and 4 June 1989, he set a record of another sort: Due to his dual duties with the Dodgers and NBC, Scully broadcast three extra-inning games, a total of 45 innings, in a span of just 27 hours. In addition, he was behind the microphone for many of the most significant moments in baseball history, including Hank Aaron's record-breaking 715th home run in 1974, Bill Buckner's infamous error in the 1986 World Series, Kirk Gibson's dramatic World Series homer in 1988, and the first major league game played on the West Coast on 15 April 1958.

Scully's name is held in reverence among sportscasters nationwide, many of whom have imitated his style of broadcasting. Millions of baseball fans, though they have never met him, think of him as a treasured friend. In his half-century in baseball he has reported on many significant changes in the game, including the designated hitter, free agency, and corporate ownership, all while maintaining an impeccable sense of balance and perspective. His dual talents for observation and oratory, and his respect for his audience's intelligence, have won him nearly universal acclaim as the greatest broadcaster in baseball history.


BIBLIOGRAPHICAL NOTES: No books have been published about Scully; however, an impressive collection of news clippings is contained in the archives of the National Baseball Hall of Fame Library in Cooperstown, New York. Significant articles appeared in TV Guide (28 February 1970), LA Weekly (7 August 1992), the Newark Star-Ledger (27 July 1995), and Inside Sports (April 1998). In addition, the media guide published annually by the Los Angeles Dodgers contains a wealth of factual information.


2005-10-07 13:22:45
35.   Bob Timmermann
British publication, Eric?
2005-10-07 13:24:50
36.   Eric Enders
Actually, no, but they wanted the dates that way for some reason.

It was Scribner's "Encyclopedia of American Lives."

2005-10-07 13:29:11
37.   Bob Timmermann
I think I've likely held that book in my hands at one point. Not that I've ever read any part of it, but I'm sure my workplace has it.

Then again, we have a lot of biographical sources. Public libraries like them. The tend to be pretty looking books that take up a lot of space.

But I liked your article Eric.

2005-10-07 13:34:04
38.   Eric Enders
"The tend to be pretty looking books that take up a lot of space."

The key is the pretty leather binding that induces librarians to pay $400 a volume for them. ;)

2005-10-07 13:35:35
39.   Jon Weisman
31 - I wrote a spec script for "Ellen" called "The Meet Market" with that spelling. It was about how everyone was picking up dates at the supermarket except for Ellen. Years after the script was done, history would later reveal that she was targeting the wrong gender.

I didn't sell the script but it did get me hired on another show - which then failed to get on the air and left me mostly unemployed for a year. I went to 70 Dodger games that year.

And now you know about 1/19th of the rest of the story ...

2005-10-07 13:39:27
40.   Bob Timmermann
The film "Mr. Wrong" seems a bit quaint now also.
2005-10-07 13:41:31
41.   popup
Thanks Eric. Excellent summary of Vin's career. Just wondering, does the Hall of Fame have recordings of Vin's broadcasts? If so and it is an extensive collection, I may have to take a trip to Cooperstown.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-07 13:42:48
42.   Jon Weisman
40 - That was in production while I held my first entertainment job, working as a secretary at Disney. "Ellen" was a Touchstone production and Disney was looking for a movie to promote DeGeneres, and settled on "Mr. Wrong." I read the script and it all seemed very unlikely to succeed - even before the quaint aspect took hold.
2005-10-07 13:47:21
43.   Marty
working as a secretary at Disney

"Honey, get me some coffee will ya"

2005-10-07 13:47:36
44.   Eric Enders
"Just wondering, does the Hall of Fame have recordings of Vin's broadcasts?"

They do, not all of them, of course, but a pretty good number. You can request whichever game you want from the reference librarian (which used to be me). They have a listening/viewing room where you can plop down in a chair and listen to Vinny all day.

I've listened to all nine innings of the perfect game broadcast, the rest of which is as lovely as the ninth inning.

2005-10-07 13:51:25
45.   Jon Weisman
43 - I worked in Casting Administration for a woman who herself had been a Disney casting secretary during the Mouseketeer days. Annette's mother would call just to say hello.

One noteworthy aspect of the job was when Jimmy Carter made a guest appearance on "Home Improvement." I was told to send back his I-9 because he failed to check the box saying he was a U.S. citizen.

Disney used to let you build up vacation days without limit, but after they realized they owed my boss two years of vacation, they changed the rule.

2005-10-07 13:53:25
46.   Bob Timmermann
And if you go to the Hall of Fame, go to the library first. It used to be a money-saving thing I heard although I don't know if the remodeling changed that arrangement.
2005-10-07 13:54:04
47.   Eric Enders
2005-10-07 13:55:29
48.   Adam M
40, 42 - Brilliant concept, poor execution, Pullman is his usual magnificent self. The "quaint" factor probably had more to do with it than we think.

Mr. Enders: For some reason, I have it in my head that Scully worked for the New York Giants at some point before joining the Dodgers. Is it a common misconception, with any basis in reality? Perhaps he grew up rooting for the Giants?

2005-10-07 13:57:05
49.   Eric Enders
Rooted for them, went to a lot of games as a kid, but never worked for them.
2005-10-07 13:59:27
50.   Bob Timmermann
I was told that if you went to the library in Cooperstown first, you can just walk into the museum through a back door and skip the admission fee.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2005-10-07 14:05:08
51.   Icaros
Check out Bob promoting the fleecing of baseball's shrine.
2005-10-07 14:06:35
52.   Marty
My company used to let you build up to 45 days vacation. But the hated not-so-new-anymore owners are changing that. They're making us take extra vacation each year to whittle it down.
2005-10-07 14:09:22
53.   popup
Seems like a good place to put this since the conversation is Hero Worship Time. Back in the 60s I was hanging around the Dodger dugout at Connie Mack Stadium with autograph book in hand. There were a bunch of other kids around me looking for autographs too.

I spotted Vin in the Dodger dugout and called out to him to ask for his autograph. He walked over to me, took the autograph book and signed his name. The reaction from the other kids was what I remember most. They looked at me like I was crazy for getting an autograph from some guy who looked like their father.

Sometime around the same time (it may have been the same day for all I know) #32 came out of the dugout. If no one other than myself knew Vin, the same was not true for Sandy. Everyone was yelling to Sandy for his autograph. There was a young girl who had a big cast that Sandy spotted and he went over to her and signed her cast. Sandy did not sign for anyone else and as he was leaving for the field, an adult yelled, "Hey Koufax, if I want your autograph I guess I have to wear a skirt."
Sandy looked up and said, "She's got a cast." Sandy then let out a laugh when he realized the guy was just razzing him. (Imagine a Philadelphia fan razzing a player).

It is odd what you remember in life. The Scully autograph and the Sandy encounter are both etched in my mind even though they happened more than forty years ago.

Eric, the answer to your question is either b or c. Vin had a sportcoat on when I got his autograph. Vin's sportcoat did not look out of style to me, and the year was sometime around 63 or 65.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-07 14:09:28
54.   Eric Enders
Oh, that. Yeah, you can, except that door is locked on the outside. You have to wait for someone to leave, then hurry and slip in.

It used to be a good plan until a couple years ago when they stationed somebody there to watch the door (though only during the summer, and you still might be able to sneak past them anyway).

Actually, all you have to do if you want to go to the Hall of Fame for free is simply walk through the front door without buying a ticket and act like you know where you're going. The 16-year-old kids at the turnstile will automatically assume you're someone important and let you go without questioning.

2005-10-07 14:10:32
55.   sanchez101
1. I can see the logic in wanting a "lasorda-type celebrity" for the next manager. As long as he's cooperative with depodesta, a high profile individual would take the media's attention away from the front office and ownership. He could provide some PR "cover" for the organization when depodesta makes moves that plascke and simer dont like.
Just a thought.
2005-10-07 14:13:24
56.   Marty
Isn't "Lasorda type celebrity" code for Bobby Valentine?
2005-10-07 14:14:49
57.   Telemachos
56 God, I hope not.

Boston has 6 innings standing between them and a very long off-season.

2005-10-07 14:16:05
58.   Eric Enders
Valentine is a blowhard, but an intelligent one. I really dislike him, but I also think he's a good manager.
2005-10-07 14:17:30
59.   gvette
Could be wrong, but among the NFL games that Scully called with CBS was the 49er/Cowboys "The Catch" game. Vin was actually very good working with an old coach,usually George Allen, or Hank Stram, doing color.

About ten years ago a company called "The Miley Collection" sold a lot of complete game broadcasts on cassettes, including games by Vin, Mel Allen, etc. They got bought out years ago, I think by MLB.

2005-10-07 14:21:01
60.   Sam DC
Ortiz and Manny back to back tie it up.
2005-10-07 14:23:01
61.   Bob Timmermann
That was Scully's last game for CBS I believe. He was working with John Madden I believed. He expected to be assigned to do the Super Bowl and when he didn't get it, he left CBS.
2005-10-07 14:23:02
62.   Adam M
Way to make a lead hold up, Chief!
2005-10-07 14:24:31
63.   Jon Weisman
57 - They heard you.
2005-10-07 14:24:52
64.   Peanuts in My Shoes
57 Which means we're about six innings away from a summer of, "See--'Moneyball' doesn't work." Blah.
2005-10-07 14:26:05
65.   King of the Hobos
Gameday has allowed me to keep tract of how our guys work the pitch counts.

Laroche has swung at the first pitch twice, outs both time. Had an Olney in his other AB

Kemp has seen the same number of pitches in 2 ABs (7 pitches). Hasn't done anything of note

Abreu has seen 5 pitches in 2 ABs, but has a hit

Still no Dodger pitchers in the series, despite having 4 ofthem there

2005-10-07 14:26:44
66.   popup
Eric, thanks for the info about the Hall. I was aghast at the way the way Petrosky (I think that is his name) politicized the Hall, but if all nine innings of the perfect game are available, I will have to make it to Cooperstown. I went there as a kid and ran into Lee Allen (The guy who wrote The Dodgers and Giants). Looking back on it, he must have been amused to talk with such an earnest little kid who liked baseball.

By the way, I agree with Jon's guidelines about no politics and hope that my comments don't unleash a bunch of folks who want to bash Republicans in general and George Bush in particular. I would have been as equally aghast had someone from the Hall injected a liberal political agenda into the Hall.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-07 14:30:29
67.   Adam M
Nice inning by Wakefield. Those last two ABs were ridiculous.

65 - Does anybody ever point out that the alternate strategy of "snowblowing money into smallball" is exemplified by the Mets, a team nobody in their right mind would emulate?

2005-10-07 14:32:15
68.   Bob Timmermann
My only political comment will be that as a member of a public employees union, I am very grateful for Called ID on my phone now because the number of phone calls I've received about the special election in November have made the hours between 6 and 9 pm quite loud as my phone seems to be constantly ringing.
2005-10-07 14:33:42
69.   regfairfield
67 I think the Angels are a better example of that.
2005-10-07 14:34:25
70.   underdog
Speaking of (much earlier) Baseball America, I happened by ESPN the other day when they had a live chat with BA's Jim Callis. Bored at work, I decided to ask him a question. Lo! He actually answered it. Unfortunately, I don't have an ESPN Insider sub so I can't access the archives of the conversation, but it's here if anyone does/can.

But my q was about Russell Martin vs. Navarro and where he sees that shaping up for the Dodgers next year. His answer was basically, Martin's unquestionably the better prospect, one of the best in baseball, but he could see Navarro starting until Martin is called up. But he said it better than that. It's really not an extremely interesting question, frankly, but it's all I could come up with and was sorta curious.


2005-10-07 14:35:31
71.   bigcpa
Is this Henson column "Frank Talk From Gagne" in today's print edition or tomorrow's?

Pretty good stuff. Finally McCourt calls attention to the $144M spending on FA's that no one seems to notice outside of this site.

2005-10-07 14:37:27
72.   Bob Timmermann
Craig P. (San Francisco): Hi Jim - Where do you see the Dodgers going at catcher next year between Navarro and Russell Martin? Is there room for both top prospects?

SportsNation Jim Callis: Martin might need a little time in Triple-A, but he's the clear starter of the future. I see Navarro as more of a backup. The Dodgers may need a stopgap, or they could let Navarro start and see what he does.

2005-10-07 14:37:39
73.   gvette
Martin vs. Navarro. Which one do you have to trade to get Gagne the big hitters that he wants?
2005-10-07 14:40:33
74.   Jon Weisman
I think this is new news: Andy LaRoche was the third baseman on BA's all-minors all-star team. Russell Martin made second team at catcher.

Arizona had two second-teamers: Conor Jackson and Andy Green.

Jacksonville was team of the year.

2005-10-07 14:40:37
75.   bigcpa
Jim Callis: Martin might need a little time in Triple-A, but he's the clear starter of the future. I see Navarro as more of a backup. The Dodgers may need a stopgap, or they could let Navarro start and see what he does.
2005-10-07 14:41:42
76.   underdog
Thanks Bob!

My 15kb of fame.

73. I guess Navarro, though my preference would be 3) Jason Phillips. [g]

I'd really prefer to have both guys, they will both have value for the club and if someone gets hurt they are covered. I'd trade someone else and also spend $ome money on free agents. But I'm not GM, thank God.

2005-10-07 14:41:53
77.   Sam DC
Boy, pitchers must just hate it when they walk Renterria.
2005-10-07 14:44:01
78.   Bob Timmermann
I hear that this is the Postseason Without Drama.

Since I was somewhat dozing off when Ortiz and Martinez hit their home runs, I would tend to agree.

2005-10-07 14:44:04
79.   Adam M
69 - Yeah, but at least part of that was because of Finley's lousy year. They signed Jose Guillen two years ago and Finley this year, and it wasn't to bunt guys over. And I thought Kotchman and McPershon were supposed to be big power guys.

Garcia's sweating so much he's starting to resemble a plaster saint.

73 - Having watched the Mariners trade Jason Varitek because he couldn't throw out baserunners like Dan Wilson, I am exempting myself from this discussion for health reasons.

2005-10-07 14:46:47
80.   Sam DC
And Ortiz hits the old fly ball that gameday shows being caught 3 feet past the wall . . .
2005-10-07 14:47:57
81.   Bob Timmermann
Konerko's fly ball was 3 feet past the wall too.
2005-10-07 14:48:11
82.   King of the Hobos
Miller in to pitch for Phoenix. Walked the first batter, then gave up an Olney and struck the next batter out, but a single (on a 0-2 count) scored the run. Abreu then made an error for the next man to reach. He struck out Billy Butler to finish it
2005-10-07 14:49:43
83.   Sam DC
81 Pretty good.
2005-10-07 14:50:01
84.   underdog
79.b.: 'zactly.

Meanwhile, I remain a Konerko champion... still prefer him to Hee Saenz Choilips.

2005-10-07 14:52:14
85.   Steve
Terry Francona needs a vacation. Obviously.
2005-10-07 14:53:18
86.   King of the Hobos
The BA AA manager of the year was none other than Lovullo

Whatever happened to manager's named Smith? It would be so much easier...

2005-10-07 14:56:12
87.   King of the Hobos
The overall manager of the year is another guy I kinda wish the Dodgers would interview, although his name's not much better. Ken Oberkfell
2005-10-07 15:00:58
88.   Romyrick
Everyone seems to perfer Martin over Navarro even though Navarro is two levels ahead and at the same age.
2005-10-07 15:05:57
89.   Sam DC
How's Martin's defense/arm supposed to be? One thing I've learned watching the Nationals this year is that it's very fun having a catcher who can really gun it. Not saying this is key to success in the game or anything, just sort of like having a pitcher that can it, it makes for fun gamewatching.

Navarro I expected to be more awesome than it seems he was in this regard, although I really didn't get to see many Dodger games.

2005-10-07 15:06:41
90.   King of the Hobos
Another Dodger farmhand in to pitch--Beau Dannemiller. Morales leads off with a single, but Beau got Wood on a pop up. 4 pitch walk, then a 3 run homer. Beau's chances of making the Dodgers aren't too good...
2005-10-07 15:07:18
91.   Icaros
Andy LaRoche says that Martin has an amazing hose.
2005-10-07 15:07:52
92.   Bob Timmermann
Cleanup hitter tonight for the Angels in New York:

Bengie Molina

2005-10-07 15:08:11
93.   Romyrick

Andy Laroche said that Martin has a "Hose" which can be taken a number of different ways.

2005-10-07 15:08:28
94.   King of the Hobos
89 His defense/arm is Navarro-ish, some say a little better, namely blocking pitches. His biggest advantage on Navarro is speed, otherwise they're very similar. Either one could develop power still
2005-10-07 15:09:19
95.   regfairfield
84 If everything were equal, I don't think anyone would disagree with you.

Is Konerko really worth 9-12 million more than Choi though?

2005-10-07 15:09:39
96.   King of the Hobos
92 Molina has been pretty good lately, and is far better than Erstad behind Vlad...
2005-10-07 15:10:50
97.   Peanuts in My Shoes
90 "Beau got Wood" heh-heh. (C'mon, not much worse than "hose")
2005-10-07 15:11:48
98.   Bob Timmermann
Erstad is going to be batting 7th. But I'm sure he will make his share of clutch fielding plays.
2005-10-07 15:13:14
99.   Adam M
88 - I don't see why they can't both stay on the team. Since catching prospects seem to have a high failure rate, the only thing that hurts the Dodgers if both fail to pan out, and there's more than enough time to give both a good tryout. Navarro seems less likely to be a "d'oh" trade that comes back to haunt you.

OT, are Pierzynski, Everett, Garcia and Guillen character guys? I can't remember any more.

Doesn't throwing with Pierzynski stealing have a pretty high success rate?

2005-10-07 15:13:42
100.   King of the Hobos
Dannemiller got out of the inning, walked another batter but nothing else

Uribe swung at ball 4 methinks, but I need to see it again

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2005-10-07 15:16:07
101.   Bob Timmermann
The Gameday weather thingee says "Rain".
2005-10-07 15:16:23
102.   Bob Timmermann
I should say "Rain in New York".
2005-10-07 15:17:16
103.   Bob Timmermann
Ramirez's fly ball was a bit more than 3 feet over the wall.
2005-10-07 15:19:22
104.   Eric Enders
But how's his arm?

Seriously, though, Martin was rated the best defensive catcher in the Southern League. Says BA: "An intense player with strong leadership skills, Martin calls a good game behind the plate, handles pitchers very well and always backs up bases, even late in the game. His catch-and-throw skills are outstanding. He still can get better at blocking balls, but he has made a lot of progress with the help of Suns hitting coach Steve Yeager, who caught in the majors for 15 years."

2005-10-07 15:21:33
105.   Romyrick
It certainly would be nice to have 2 catchers that can hit, those back up catcher AB's add up quickly.
2005-10-07 15:23:34
106.   Linkmeister
I am appalled, appalled I say, that the usual sports radio station out here doesn't deem the Sox-Sox game worthy of broadcasting. That ties me to the tube when I have errands to run.


2005-10-07 15:25:37
107.   Adam M
Jim Thome has more postseason HRs than Babe Ruth. There are lies, there are damn lies...

Hell of an at-bat by Mueller.

2005-10-07 15:26:53
108.   Eric Enders
"Is Konerko really worth 9-12 million more than Choi though?"

He is not worth one cent more. In fact, they're basically the same hitter, except Choi is a little bit better.

Performance in neutral ballparks (i.e. road parks), past three years:

Konerko: .248/.324/.432/.756
Choi: .242/.346/.424/.770

Add that to the fact that Choi will be 27 in 2006 and likely to improve, while Konerko will be 30 and is likely to decline, and it's no contest. Choi is the better player, even if salary is no object.

2005-10-07 15:28:30
109.   Adam M
If I were a pitcher in a pressure situation, there are few things I'd find more reassuring than having Ozzie Guillen on the top step of the dugout screaming obscenities at the umpire.
2005-10-07 15:28:38
110.   King of the Hobos
It's over in the desert

Laroche: 0-4, saw only 9 pitches, 5 of which came when he Olney'd
Kemp: 1-4, thrown out trying to extend a single, saw a more reasonable 15 pitches
Abreu: 1-3, error, saw 7 pitches

Miller: 1 IP, 1 hit, ER, BB, 2 Ks, 25 pitches
Dannemiller: 1 IP, 2 hits, 3 ERs, 2 BBs, HR

2005-10-07 15:28:46
111.   Linkmeister
Bases loaded, no outs. If the BoSox play like the Dodgers did this year, they'll get one run and a GIDP.
2005-10-07 15:28:50
112.   Eric L
88 People seem to forget that the Yankees signed Navarro almost two years before Martin was eligible to be drafted. Navarro has been playing pro ball longer than Martin, even though Martin is a little older than him.
2005-10-07 15:29:25
113.   Bob Timmermann
Did anyone see Guillen asking the umpire if Varitek was already in the game? Would it have made a difference? Would Francona sent up Mirabelli in that situation no matter who was on the mound?
2005-10-07 15:31:34
114.   Icaros
108 I don't understand why people want to upgrade at positions which don't need it. First base was not a problem this year, except when Phillips started there.

This is what the Dodgers need to spend money on:


2005-10-07 15:32:34
115.   Eric Enders
I don't have a problem with upgrading first base as long as it's truly an upgrade. Konerko would be a downgrade.

If we could get a Delgado, that would be a different story.

2005-10-07 15:32:42
116.   Bob Timmermann
So if Varitek walks, does Guillen get run out of the game?
2005-10-07 15:34:11
117.   Adam M
114 - Amen.
2005-10-07 15:34:31
118.   Bob Timmermann
Graffanino with a chance to pull off the same feat that Mike Edwards did in the season-ending series against the Giants!
2005-10-07 15:35:18
119.   Adam M
Well, with the season on the line, the Boston fans are chanting Graffanino's name. That's a nice touch.
2005-10-07 15:35:35
120.   natepurcell
so who would opposed to "manny being manny" in a dodger uniform next year if it means 35 homeruns and 100+ rbis?

plus, cutting off throws from CF while playing in LF...

oh and leaving the field of play during a coaching visit to the pitching mound..

2005-10-07 15:36:00
121.   Icaros
And by spend money I'm thinking more along the lines of acquiring higher-salaried upgrades through trade.

2005-2006 free agent market=garbage dump.

2005-10-07 15:36:08
122.   Eric Enders
Paul Konerko = Hee Seop Choi, only more famous

Jacque Jones = Mike Edwards, only more famous

These are not the kinds of players we need to be adding, folks...

2005-10-07 15:36:14
123.   Telemachos
So, talking about spending money:

How much would DT GMs pay for the cream of the FA crop this year? How much would you offer Matsui? Giles? Burnett? (Player of your choice)

Would you be willing to go 4 yrs/$40 million for Matsui? Would that be enough, do you think? What about $3 yrs/$30 million for Burnett? $3 yrs/$30 million for Weaver?

I tend to think all of those guys might cost more -- I'm just throwing numbers out there.

Personally, when a club has a significant amount of money available to spend (as the Dodgers apparently do this off-season), I don't mind over-spending on a player, provided that player is a guaranteed star and that the over-payment is not too ridiculous.

2005-10-07 15:36:47
124.   King of the Hobos
Some new FAs for the offseason:

Dustin Mohr (option declined)
Joe Mays (option declined)
Terrernce Long (even KC realized he's worthless)

2005-10-07 15:38:11
125.   Bob Timmermann

PASS (x3)

2005-10-07 15:38:39
126.   underdog
115. Yeah, I'd prefer Delgado, too, and agree Konerko probably isn't worth much more, but still (and this is gut, I guess, not all numbers, which is what DePo prefers anyway) prefer him to Choi. But yes, perhaps not the area to really focus on.

Maybe we should get rid of the manager who never gave Choi much of a chance and... Oh wait... okay, check that off the list.

Anyway, definitely would like to see what Choi can do as a full-time player. 1 OF and
1 3rd base, and one more frontline starter, are likely will DePo will focus his money so this is prolly a moot discussion. (Unless Delgado...)

Why are the Dodgers still giving Dannemiller a chance, a look?

2005-10-07 15:39:56
127.   Icaros
120 I've already said I'm for it, as long as it doesn't require parting with the top prospects.
2005-10-07 15:40:19
128.   Bob Timmermann
Time for Johnny .316
2005-10-07 15:40:24
129.   natepurcell
for me,

matsui: i would go 4 yrs 40 mil

burnett: 3 yrs 30 mil. i wouldnt committ to more than 3 yrs.

giles: 3 yrs 27 mil

like most have said, i would look to improve through trades.

are some of the players off the top of my head. i am sure others will be on the block as well.

2005-10-07 15:40:56
130.   trainwreck
I think we are going to go after Millwood and Dunn this off-season, just a feeling I have.
2005-10-07 15:41:24
131.   Eric Enders
Giles is the sort of difference-making player worth overpaying for; I would offer him whatever he wanted as long as he agreed to a short contract (2 yrs with team option for 3rd).

Burnett I would not make a serious offer to. I'd give him about 2 yrs/$18 mil, which wouldn't come close to getting it done.

Matsui's real good, but old, like Giles. I'd offer him about 3 yrs/$28 mil. Which probably wouldn't get it done.

2005-10-07 15:42:08
132.   Romyrick
How bad is Garciaparra's defense?
2005-10-07 15:42:17
133.   King of the Hobos
126 Roster filler. If he pitched like Schmoll did last year, he might have had a look in spring. I think he's already given up more runs than Schmoll did

Hull on the other hand could be in Arizona to get an extra look, as his Jacksonville numbers were pretty impressive. I believe he's a few weeks older than Dannemiller (they're both 26 in December). Both are likely roster fillers, but you never know

2005-10-07 15:42:51
134.   CanuckDodger
94 -- I think you underestimate how much better Martin is than Navarro. I recall that the assessment of one scout who has watched them both is that Navarro doesn't do a single thing that Martin doesn't do better.

Also, on another board, I have read comments from a Dodger fan who saw the final game of the Southern League finals, the game that the Suns won to clinch the championship. This poster had for some time been an advocate of trading Martin, on the grounds that Navarro is already with the Dodgers and is doing a good job. After watching that final playoff game, the poster basically said he had been a fool. He was extremely impressed by Martin, at the plate and behind it. He said every throw Martin made to second was a laser beam precisely one foot off the ground and one foot to the left of the base. During the game, a guy tried to steal second on a pitch that was a curveball in the dirt, and Martin still nailed him. The poster now believes that Martin has the potential to be a superstar. I don't think anybody who has seen Navarro sees superstar potential there.

2005-10-07 15:43:20
135.   natepurcell
matsui= 32
giles= 34
2005-10-07 15:43:26
136.   Adam M
Graffanino had to swing at that pitch, and almost nobody could have gotten a hit out of it.

120 - I just got a sinking feeling Manny in Dodger Blue would give a lot of people Daryl flashbacks.

2005-10-07 15:44:25
137.   Romyrick
1. Bradley 2. Choi 3. Drew 4. Dunn 5. Kent 6. Garciaparra 7. Aybar 8. Navarro

AHHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA I love the offseason.

2005-10-07 15:44:55
138.   Bob Timmermann
Damon needed that umpire from the game that wouldn't call Phillips out on the check swing.
2005-10-07 15:45:09
139.   Eric Enders
"matsui= 32
giles= 34"

Which is why I'd offer Matsui a longer contract. But I'd offer Giles more money, because he's better.

2005-10-07 15:45:27
140.   blue22
123 - Matsui has had the good fortune of batting behind some combination of Jeter, ARod, Giambi, and Sheffield for his 3 years in the big. I don't think I go over 3/$30M for him.

Giles, though older, has put up better stats than Matsui. His numbers away from SD are terrific. 3/$36M?

2005-10-07 15:45:42
141.   Icaros
Is Damon going to wear his crown of thorns out to CF this inning after that K?
2005-10-07 15:47:28
142.   Linkmeister
Well, I didn't even have the outcome right.

This game will break your heart.

2005-10-07 15:50:41
143.   Bob Timmermann
I wear this crown of thorns,
Upon my liar's chair
Full of broken thoughts
I cannot repair

(Johnny Cash version lyrics to keep it PG)

2005-10-07 15:51:04
144.   Romyrick

Canuck i always enjoy your posts at La Dugout, one question i have about your post. You say Martin has the potential to be a superstar, now do you mean a defensive superstar or an all around Mike Piazza type superstar?

We all know he can hit but not to the level of stardom and even the most prolific defensive players arent really considered superstars.

2005-10-07 15:52:05
145.   popup
Just wondering if anyone has done any work on this (if not, it might be a good topic for research): are players who have unexplained poor seasons or lengthy cold periods during a season too risky for a long term contract? A few years ago Konerko simply could not hit. Last year Finley was exteremly streaky: cold for long periods and red hot at times. Instinctively I am wary of such players. Roy Campanella had some very bad years but those were associated with injuries. I just find it hard to trust a player who is inconsistent when there is no particular reason that can be advanced for the inconsistency.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-07 15:53:03
146.   natepurcell
martin is never going to hit for the power of piazza, but his OBP and BA will be piazza like.
2005-10-07 15:53:57
147.   King of the Hobos
144 Would we really call Piazza an all around type superstar? The guys could hit, but defensively...

And I'd suppose it's hard to predict how superstar-like Martin will be, as we're not sure if he'll develop any power

2005-10-07 15:54:22
148.   blue22
146 - What about his hose?
2005-10-07 15:54:36
149.   Romyrick
well i dont think it will take piazza type power numbers to make him a superstar.
2005-10-07 15:54:41
150.   natepurcell
i think another reason for having russ martin on the team next year is that martin and gagne can for a special canadian bond and that will allow gagne to get over lo duca because he will have a new favorite catcher. this time, a very own canadian one.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2005-10-07 15:54:46
151.   King of the Hobos
147 I have no idea why "guy" is plural, just a slip I guess. Or maybe Piazza was really 2 players...?
2005-10-07 15:54:48
152.   Bob Timmermann
There's a website devoted to the study of "the hot hand".

It might be about short-term streaks, but you might find it interesting.

2005-10-07 15:56:01
153.   King of the Hobos
150 Theoretically, we could have done the same thing with Langill in September of 2004 ;)
2005-10-07 15:56:01
154.   Icaros
I'd love to sign Giles, but like Eric I wouldn't go long term. My absolute limit would be three years with a team or mutual option on the fourth. I'm afraid some other team will give him more as he's the only premium outfielder on the FA market.

I don't think the Yankees will let Matsui opt out, and I don't see anyone outbidding NY if they want him back, which they certainly will.

The Dodgers should focus on a trade for the likes of Dunn, Ramirez, Abreu, etc.

2005-10-07 15:56:45
155.   Telemachos
Matsui (versus Giles) doesn't walk as much, but has a bit more pop to his bat. Giles is probably the more sabermetric player, but again, he's also 2 years older. Matsui doesn't turn 32 until next June. Giles will be 35 by the time spring training rolls around.
2005-10-07 15:57:19
156.   natepurcell
from being able to watch the suns online, ive come to the conclusion through my scouting expertise that martin does infact own a hose. Its quite a prolific hose as well- one of characteristics that will make him a superstar.

russ martin: canadian mountee of walks... and heart... and hoses.

2005-10-07 16:00:01
157.   regfairfield
For the length of time we'd be willing to sign Giles, someone will likely be able to outbid us.
2005-10-07 16:00:19
158.   Icaros
156 As long as he's not a hoser...
2005-10-07 16:02:16
159.   King of the Hobos
156 Stop with the ambiguity... ;)
2005-10-07 16:03:17
160.   natepurcell
pretty soon, instead of digging the long ball, chicks will soon dig the hose.
2005-10-07 16:04:23
161.   Eric Enders
On Martin:

Respectfully disagreeing with nate, Martin will not hit for anywhere near the average that Piazza did. His OBP might be comparable however because of a higher walk rate.

But Piazza is a pretty darned high, and unfair, standard to hold him to. We're talking about the greatest hitting catcher of all time here, without a close second. It's no shame for Martin if he doesn't reach that level. (And with his power, he won't.)

2005-10-07 16:05:08
162.   King of the Hobos
160 Pretty soon? I'm pretty sure they've long dug the hose...

I'll stop when nate stops. I must reveal all jokes on the off chance they were not intentional

2005-10-07 16:05:09
163.   Spageticus
I interned in the sports department in 2002. When I was there the ciculation was 70,000-plus on Sundays (but it was getting heavy competition from the encroaching Press Enterprise). The Inland Empire has a market about equal to Kansas City. Oberjuerge has his readers.

When I was at The Sun, Paul O. had paid his own way to the World Cup. He had a major man-crush on Landon Donovan. He was a sort of mentor for me that summer. Glad to see him supporting Depo.

2005-10-07 16:05:16
164.   CanuckDodger
144 -- Romyrick, I said that the poster on the other board who saw Martin claimed that Martin will be a superstar. Personally, I would not go that far, because I think it is almost imposssible for a catcher who does not hit for power to be a superstar. It is still encouraging that somebody could look at Martin and THINK he will be a superstar. All that I believe is that, long-term, Martin will be quite a bit better than Navarro, and that is the relevent issue, not whether Martin will be the second coming of Johnny Bench.
2005-10-07 16:05:53
165.   popup
#120, I don't want Manny. He is a great hitter period. There is nothing else about him that appeals to me. I don't dislike him as much as Kent, but he is not someone I would want to see with the Dodgers.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-07 16:06:48
166.   Romyrick
For your information Martin not only has a hose he has a spicket, facuet and numerous additional attachments that will make him ideal for a superstar career.
2005-10-07 16:08:05
167.   Eric Enders
I'm getting the feeling that I'm going to see an infomercial tonight offering me Russell Martin for only $39.95, plus a bonus set of knives if I call in the next 10 minutes.
2005-10-07 16:09:43
168.   natepurcell
hmm. actually relooking at piazzas numbers, i am going to retract my previous statement and agree with eric.

i have totally forgotten how much of a force in BA piazza was.

this is what i think of martin:
-will have a BA like lo duca, with one or two years with a big spike in homeruns.
- will always walk a lot and play excellent defense.

but one thing is for sure:
martin's hose> piazza's hose

im sure the ladies will agree as well.

2005-10-07 16:11:13
169.   popup
#152, thanks Bob.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-07 16:12:22
170.   Romyrick

For two easy payments and one complicated one, The mailman will get shot to death, The envelope will not seal and the stamp will be in the wrong denomination. Oh, and the last payment must be made in WOMPOM! - Mitch Hedberg

2005-10-07 16:12:41
171.   blue22
168 - Seems like he's a Joe Mauer-type. Moderate power, good discipline. Mix in a bit more athleticism behind the plate, and you've got a pretty good player.
2005-10-07 16:17:15
172.   Romyrick
Do the announcers of this game want the Bosox to lose?

They are down 1 run with an inning and change left and they are talking about the fat lady.

Red Sox ball girls are hot!

2005-10-07 16:17:21
173.   Eric Enders
Don't forget he's got speed, too -- his 15 steals would have led the major league Dodgers this year.
2005-10-07 16:19:25
174.   Icaros
I think that C on Varitek's jersey looks a bit pretentious. Where are his ice skates?
2005-10-07 16:21:22
175.   jasonungar05
U guys don't think that Martin can go:

104 runs scored
200 hits
40 hr
32 doubles
124 steaks
.362 AVG
.431 OBP

sheesh, u guys are so pessemistic. LOL

2005-10-07 16:21:51
176.   imperabo
I used to be interested in Dunn until I saw his home/road splits. Worrysome to say the least. I'd rather have Giles.
2005-10-07 16:23:09
177.   natepurcell
dunn is 10 yrs younger than giles though.
2005-10-07 16:23:38
178.   popup
I remember seeing Mike play in the minors when the Dukes visited Tacoma. I could not believe he was the last player drafted.

I remember telling my friend who was with me to see the Dukes not entirely in jest that the Dodgers should sign Piazza, Roger Cedeno and Mondesi to 15 year contracts and play them in the outfield. I missed on Cedeno; I expected him to be a star. I do wonder if Piazza would still be a premier hitter if he had not gotten so many years of getting beat up behind the plate. If he had been a good catcher I would have kept him behind the plate, but he was not a good catcher. If I had been running the Dodgers, Piazza would have been in left field.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-07 16:24:05
179.   natepurcell

yea but, how was his hose!?!? yea, thats what i thought.

2005-10-07 16:24:15
180.   Icaros
Martin is so good he'll be able to pitch, then run back behind the plate and catch himself.

When a guy has speed and a great hose, he can do these things.

2005-10-07 16:24:54
181.   imperabo

And only 3 first place MVP votes that year. Ah, the ignorance.

2005-10-07 16:26:53
182.   King of the Hobos
And Dunn kills the Padres

I'm not sure how badly I want him, he'd be nice, but I tend to doubt I'd like what we'll give up. And there's always the chance that those road stats are more meaningful than I tend to think

2005-10-07 16:27:35
183.   natepurcell
martin is going to break the all time stealing record for catchers while at the same time end his career with the highest caught stealing % out of all the catchers.

a question for the ages, if martin was stealing on himself, would the hose or the speed win the battle?

2005-10-07 16:27:48
184.   Adam M
I smell a big breakthrough "stomp on the neck" inning here for the White Sox. The Red Sox title defense never seems to have gotten propped up.
2005-10-07 16:28:47
185.   imperabo

So Dunn should come up a little from his 805 road OPS, and Giles should come down a little from his 1008 road OPS.

2005-10-07 16:28:52
186.   Bob Timmermann
I really don't like that dirty water now.
2005-10-07 16:29:16
187.   Adam M
Granted, I said the same thing after Game 3 of the ALCS.

Brace yourself for more smallball quotes...

2005-10-07 16:29:22
188.   King of the Hobos
Boston is in trouble...
2005-10-07 16:30:24
189.   Bob Timmermann
The 1919 World Series was "allegedly" thrown.

So says Chris Berman.


2005-10-07 16:31:05
190.   Adam M
Has anyone pointed out that not only is it Red Sox vs. White Sox, its Cora vs. Cora? I think Joey may have a better chance of taking the field, though.
2005-10-07 16:31:09
191.   Icaros
Say it ain't so, Bob!
2005-10-07 16:32:11
192.   regfairfield
187 But I thought the Red Sox weren't a Moneyball team.

Or is that only when they lose?

2005-10-07 16:33:07
193.   natepurcell
if the sweep does indeed take place, will we see a drastic overhaul this offseason for red sox nation?
2005-10-07 16:33:46
194.   popup
#172, did you see the play the Red Sox left field ball girl made on a line drive a week or so ago? Line drive smoked foul to left, headed for the seats and she snared it back handed to save some customer a broken skull. Great play. If I had been Francona I would have waived her into play left field and had Manny take her seat.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-07 16:34:05
195.   Adam M
They became a Moneyball team the day they traded Dave Roberts.
2005-10-07 16:34:47
196.   Bob Timmermann
If I were Kevin Millar, I wouldn't count on being employed in Boston in 2006.
2005-10-07 16:35:28
197.   trainwreck
Red Sox will definitely go hard after some pitching. Millar's days are numbered so are Mueller's and who knows maybe even Damon's. Then there is the whole Manny saga, Boston could be a very different team next year.
2005-10-07 16:37:38
198.   popup
#193, maybe they will take over the payments on Lowe.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-07 16:38:14
199.   King of the Hobos
193 I sensed a drastic overhaul either way. They just didn't have the pitching this year
2005-10-07 16:38:36
200.   natepurcell
the red sox do have some very talented prospects coming up soon.

all of them could figure into the red sox plans sometime next year.

Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2005-10-07 16:38:44
201.   das411


2005-10-07 16:39:38
202.   Bob Timmermann
As much as I dislike the White Sox, you have to give them credit for winning 3 games in a row in Cleveland that they didn't need to win and they pretty much shut down one of the best offenses in the majors in this series.
2005-10-07 16:39:57
203.   das411
plus finally all of the ma$$holes will finally realize what a fluke last year was
2005-10-07 16:40:30
204.   natepurcell
we'll trade them odalis and bradley for manram and 12 million.
2005-10-07 16:41:00
205.   Eric Enders
"#172, did you see the play the Red Sox left field ball girl made on a line drive a week or so ago? Line drive smoked foul to left, headed for the seats and she snared it back handed"

Those ball girls are all college softball players. They have to go through a baseball tryout before they're hired.


"I remember seeing Mike play in the minors when the Dukes visited Tacoma. I could not believe he was the last player drafted."

That's because he wasn't...

2005-10-07 16:41:10
206.   Bob Timmermann
The playoffs are a crapshoot.

One day someone will give the Phillies some dice to play with. :-)

2005-10-07 16:41:57
207.   blue22
193 - I'd expect AJ Burnett to end up there. Manny for Beltran too?

At least they've got Edgar ".718 OPS and 30 errors" Renteria locked up for $30M over the next 3 years.

2005-10-07 16:42:57
208.   popup
Could be some pretty chilly evenings if White Sox and Cardinals play in the World Series.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-07 16:44:06
209.   das411
202 - The ChiSox have now won 8 in a row and have four days rest before the ALCS starts on the 11th, in their home park.

They are in pretty good shape.

2005-10-07 16:44:22
210.   LetsGoDodgers
Boo hoo. Poor Red Sox. All that money spent on all that talent and nothing to show for it. Kudos to the White Sox.

The 5th White Sox run was scored with a double, then 2 sacrifice bunts? Say it ain't so!

2005-10-07 16:44:56
211.   Eric Enders
I'm surprised ESPN is risking interviewing Ozzie Guillen on live TV.

Then again, they don't have to deal with the FCC.

2005-10-07 16:44:58
212.   Borchard504
Looking at Wells and Schilling, sitting on the bench together, after the game was over, one could see those guys picturing the end of their careers happening right before their eyes.
2005-10-07 16:46:02
213.   natepurcell
i still cant believe the red sox locked up all that money to renteria with hanley ramirez waiting in the wings. to me, that was not a example of smart spending. I would have rather gone for a stop gap in eckstein if i were the sox.
2005-10-07 16:46:47
214.   das411
203 - Fair enough, fair enough.

Do we give Ozzie credit for widening that strike zone the last few innings though?

207 - And Renteria has made the last out of Boston's season each of the last two years.

208 - No!! Bob and I want the Astros to play the Chisox!!!! It will be like a real-time trivia contest :)

2005-10-07 16:46:48
215.   popup
Eric, I thought Piazza was taken in the last round of the draft becuase of his connection to LaSorda.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-07 16:46:57
216.   natepurcell
what is the red sox projected rotation for next year?

with papelbon and lester waiting in the wings?

2005-10-07 16:47:20
217.   Bob Timmermann
That's 3 days rest isn't it?
Today is Friday.
The White Sox rest Saturday, Sunday, Monday.
They play on Tuesday.
2005-10-07 16:47:23
218.   blue22
212 - I can see Wells retiring today.

Schilling still has another 2 years on his contract, for $25M. I think he'll gut it out.

2005-10-07 16:48:28
219.   Bob Timmermann
And Renteria was the last batter for the Marlins in 1997 too.
2005-10-07 16:48:52
220.   Steve
So, Alex Cora didn't work out then?
2005-10-07 16:49:25
221.   Jacob L
213 FWIW (probably not much), I saw Hanley Ramirez play in Portland this year. He may be a heck of a ball player, but I don't think he'll be a shortstop in the major leagues.
2005-10-07 16:49:44
222.   still bevens
Seems like the Sox cashed in all their playoff 'clutch' moments last year. Not one 'clutch' set of RBIs all series, just alot of dudes stranded on base. It also seemed like the fringes (1&2, 7-9) of the lineup just couldnt get it done. Can't have Manny and Ortiz carrying the offense on their backs with home runs all the time.
2005-10-07 16:50:00
223.   trainwreck
I do not think Hanley Ramirez is that great. I definitely think he is good but his numbers never really stood out to me (I have only seen his numbers for last year and a half of course). So I saw no problem with them signing Renteria. I mean Ramirez could have always been traded. Unfortunately for them Renteria just failed and that happens sometimes.
2005-10-07 16:50:05
224.   Bob Timmermann
Alex Cora's (blank) doesn't work in the playoffs.
2005-10-07 16:50:05
225.   natepurcell
well renteria is batting .333 in do or die playoff moments.

pretty good average if you ask me :)

2005-10-07 16:51:08
226.   Eric Enders
"Eric, I thought Piazza was taken in the last round of the draft becuase of his connection to LaSorda."

Not the last round, however. 62nd of 70 rounds.

2005-10-07 16:53:13
227.   Bob Timmermann
So the Cardinals and Padres had nearly 48 hours between games 1 and 2 and they will have about 52 hours between games 2 and 3.
2005-10-07 16:57:55
228.   popup
#226, thanks Eric. Thought I remembered hearing he was taken at the end of the draft because of Lasorda. From that I assumed he was the last player the Dodgers drafted that year.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-07 17:16:06
229.   Bob Timmermann
Angels are using their smallball attack as well.
2005-10-07 17:16:12
230.   Linkmeister
Berman actually used the word "allegedly" regarding the Black Sox?

Stick to nicknames, Chris. For $200, what nickname would Berman have given Arnold Rothstein in 1919?

2005-10-07 17:18:25
231.   Romyrick
The angels are suppossed to hit 3 run homeruns.
2005-10-07 17:18:44
232.   Romyrick
2005-10-07 17:19:27
233.   das411
224 - Alex Cora's HOSE doesn't work in the playoffs.

217 , 219 - Bob is just picking on me because the Abreu deal fell through! But the Tues game is scheduled for 8pm so by my thinking, any day you can sleep until after noon is definitely a day of rest :)

227 - NYTimes sports today: "Any doubt about where this division series (SD/StL) stood in the pecking order compared to the others was painfully clarified by the Game 3 starting time on Saturday: 11:09 p. m. Eastern time." Daily Quickie: "How badly does MLB want this series to be over? So badly that they've scheduled Game 3 for Saturday night at 11 p.m. ET.

And so badly that they've scheduled Game 4 (right: "if necessary") for 1 p.m. PT the next day."


2005-10-07 17:21:50
234.   Bob Timmermann
Berman definitely used "allegedly" in reference to the White Sox and the 1919 World Series.

He didn't allegedly say "allegedly".

I have no idea whom Berman was trying to protect. It's not like anyone is going to sue him or ESPN. Who would be wronged?

2005-10-07 17:24:39
235.   Linkmeister
234 Eddie Cicotte's memory?
2005-10-07 17:24:48
236.   Icaros
234 Isn't that why Joe Jackson has allegedly been kept out of the Hall of Fame?
2005-10-07 17:26:47
237.   das411
206 - And don't you dare think I missed this one Bob. Just cause I responded to my own post accidentally in 214...hmph!

Off to go watch the Icers play while the rest of my campus is working on their 4th day of tailgating for tomorrow...

223 - Wasn't Hanley part of the big 3 way Mets/Bosox/DRays trade this summer?

Of those three teams I think I'd actually take Tampa's future of any of 'em.

2005-10-07 17:27:02
238.   Bob Timmermann
One thing we forget about Chris Berman is that he is a very, very, very, very, very, very stupid man.
2005-10-07 17:28:14
239.   Bob Timmermann
Off to beautiful Tujunga for some mediocre high school football!
2005-10-07 17:29:11
240.   Telemachos
238 But he tries to compensate by being very, very, very, very, very, very loud.
2005-10-07 17:29:19
241.   Icaros
238 He's also a Giants fan. I think that's worth at least another two stupids.
2005-10-07 17:32:59
242.   Linkmeister
Meanwhile, back at the Yankees-Angels game, is Sciosia channeling Earl Weaver? What's with a 3-run home run?
2005-10-07 17:36:14
243.   Telemachos
242 Scioscia atones by having Adam Kennedy thrown out trying to steal second.
2005-10-07 17:38:13
244.   Icaros
241 verys, I should say.
2005-10-07 17:52:57
245.   dzzrtRatt
So far, Bengie Molina is the Carlos Beltran of the 2005 playoffs. The Mets and Yankees will get into a huge bidding war over him if the Yankees end up losing.
2005-10-07 18:01:03
246.   Eric L
245 Konerko is doing a pretty good Beltran impression too.
2005-10-07 18:05:10
247.   Vishal
only the angels could do something like bat bengie molina in the cleanup spot and get 3 home runs from him in 3 games. that's why people hate the angels.
2005-10-07 18:13:55
248.   dzzrtRatt
Feel the burn! Darin Erstad just doubled.
2005-10-07 18:14:49
249.   alexx
Ryne Sandberg on the Cardinals:

"They have turned seven double plays in the first two games, proving that defense up the middle is key to any winning team."

I might have to question your logic, Ryne...

2005-10-07 18:16:44
250.   dzzrtRatt
Willie Aybar at third base fans--note that tonight's Angel third baseman, Quinlan has a .676 OPS. Figgins sometimes plays there; he's at .744. Between them: 13 home runs.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2005-10-07 18:17:47
251.   dzzrtRatt
247 Konerko will become a Met. Perfect.
2005-10-07 18:21:38
252.   Icaros
250 Willy Aybar at third is more tolerable when Jeff Kent is at second, as opposed to Adam Kennedy.
2005-10-07 18:22:08
253.   bigcpa
Guess that's why you send Erstad home on the single to right.
2005-10-07 18:50:51
254.   dzzrtRatt
At least he got Randy Johnson out of the game. They need to score more runs, apparently, and that's easier to do when you're facing Joe Torre's middle relievers.
2005-10-07 19:02:49
255.   Adam M
Man, Cabrera...uncorked that throw. Right now, in his living room, Rex Hudler is saying it was a good throw...direction-wise.

If Anheuser Busch didn't just curse the Cardinals' chances this year, I'll be surprised.

2005-10-07 19:21:22
256.   Steve
When did we trade Grabowski to the Angels?
2005-10-07 19:26:19
257.   D4P
We can't trade Grabowski. He has those risque photos of Depo, remember?
2005-10-07 19:39:18
258.   Marty
All this talk of hoses and manram has got me wondering about you boys...
2005-10-07 19:39:52
259.   King of the Hobos
Another new FA on the market:

Victor Santos

There are plenty of others that have been designated/released/whatever, I'm just posting the ones that have a chance at making a team. Mays, Mohr, and Long were the earlier ones today (and maybe Lecroy, I don't really understand the process very well)

2005-10-11 22:17:23
260.   thomcat
to: ERIC ENDER 122.....

It is really amazing to see the huge contrast of opinions that posters here have, regarding certain players, as compared to those Dodger fans over Fan

Right now there is a big push by some, for GM to pick up Konerko as a FA. Convinced that he would solve much of our power-bat issues and end what some call: The Choi Experiment.
True, Konerko has established himself as a steady, productive slugger, getting better each year, and you could say this year he has truly come into his own, having his best year ever, both offensively and defensively, along with contribruting greatly to the Sox rise to the top of their Div.

But, there is also a big difference between 10 to 12 million or more.....and the measley $350 thou that the Dodgers pay for Choi services. I personally believe that Choi has made improvements this year in both hitting and fielding, though he certainly has been inconsistent....while acclimating to a new team, adjusting to a new stance and approach at the plate he was given in spring by Tim Wallach, making him more aggressive, while putting more power in his stkroke.....dealing with getting benched for long periods of time by Tracy and relegated to a PH status, while prevented from facing lefty arms. Aong with the other RBI bats, He had to cope with hitting in a erratic line-up, that gave the few (very few) big power-hitters they did have, poor protection behind them and when hitting opportunities did present themselves, more than not, there wasn't anybody on base to drive in, since the team was near anemic, in the OBP% Dept.

Though many critisize Choi's glove and lack of mobility at 1B, he showed that he is a lot better than his critics by turning in fielding numbers like, coming in 3rd among NL 1B in fldg range 10.23 and 4th or 5th in Fldg % with a .998 among players with 500 or more TC's.
Though he was 25th in TC...27th in PO in NL, due to lack of playing time, he jumped up to 14th in Assists with 62, indicating he is able to turn a fair number of DPs and can throw runners out, when the ball is initially hit to him.

He may or may not become a starter with steady power and production, learn to hit lefties adequately to warrant not being platooned, although I think his 1B glovework at this point, warrants him being rated as an asset to his team, rather than a debit.

And though I can't say if he will ever reach the great potential that many coaches and fans, myself included, see in him, but 3 season with a little over 900 abs, is not nearly enough playing time and exposure to come to any solid conclusions on the Big Lefty First Baseman.

I hope the Dodgers are smart enought to keep him and find another big bat in a solid glove at 3rd, Left, or possiby in cf, if they dump Bradley just because of the Kent-Bradley Affair, which I personally think would be a bad move on their part, both economically and loss of a good player on the team.


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