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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
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Gall Stones
2005-10-11 21:58
by Jon Weisman

"They get the messages I've been sending, they are very good teachers, and they're very good at implementing my ideas."

Well, isn't that a refreshing approach? So, who are "they?"

"They" are Jim Tracy's coaches with the Dodgers. Apparently, listening skills and doing what is asked of you are very important to the former Dodger manager - except, of course, when he's the one being asked to listen and heed.

In any case, Tracy will bring pitching coach Jim Colborn and bench coach Jim Lett with him to Pittsburgh, with first-base coach John Shelby perhaps on the way, according to Joe Rutter in the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review.

Rutter adds in a separate article that Tracy "can rapidly recite the numbers he produced in five years with the Los Angeles Dodgers: Four winning seasons, 427 wins, one NL West championship and the franchise's first playoff game victory in 16 years." Something tells me that Tracy hasn't memorized how many losses he has had.

Do I sound bitter? I only mean to sound really, really annoyed, and only because just about each time he opens his mouth these days, Tracy reveals an astonishingly deeper lack of perspective.

"The challenge is something I like very much," Tracy said, according to Rutter. "I take a lot of pride in people saying this is a situation where you don't have a chance to succeed. I'm really challenged by that."

Well shoot, then Tracy should have loved 2005 in Los Angeles, since we had Tracy telling Tracy he was in a situation where he had no chance to succeed. The only problem was that Tracy doesn't like being told he is in a situation where he does have a chance to succeed. Given that optimistic assessment from the Dodger front office, Tracy chose to find reasons to prove his bosses wrong.

But yeah, 2006 plays right into Tracy's make-me-an-overachiever hands. Columnist Bob Smizik of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette is realistic about the Pirates' new manager:

With Tracy on the job, the Pirates will get the immediate lift that occurs almost any time a new manager steps into a losing situation. The players will naturally feel better about themselves because they'll see this as a new beginning and as an end to the darkness of losing that prevailed within the team. Tracy will have new ideas and new ways of presenting those ideas. Spring training will have an edge of excitement to it. But when the first real pitch comes in April, a manager isn't going to make a major difference.

His greatest chance of impact is not with fresh ideas, innovative strategy or improved lines of communication, but rather with better players. Hopefully, there will be the expected improvement in the young players that comes with experience and maturation, but it doesn't always work that way. There's rarely a smooth curve to success for baseball players.

Bucs Dugout has started to read Dodger Thoughts and other articles to get some other points of view on Tracy - and the folks there are getting a little nervous. I'd like to tell them I was rooting for them. There is almost no ex-Dodger I don't wish the best, but I find it impossible to root for people who have no humility. Eric Karros became one of those people, and Jim Tracy, I'm really sorry to say, has become another. I used to root for them both, but even Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan are more humble than these two.

Not that Tracy needs to worry about me - his new contract will guarantee him at least $3.2 million before it expires, about $2.5 million more than the Dodgers guaranteed him, according to Steve Henson in the Times. Pretty impressive, considering the contract also comes with such low expectations.

Henson also reports that Tracy had gotten strong signals from the Pirates that he would be their next manager after Lloyd McClendon was fired September 6. Two days later, Tracy gave his ultimatum to the Dodgers for a contract extension through 2008.

It was clumsy, but the act ultimately accelerated a sensible parting of the ways. As a result, the Dodgers will soon have a new manager and new coaches (although hopefully Manny Mota will stay). The Dodgers will soon have a staff that we can hope will allow Paul DePodesta to say:

"They get the messages I've been sending, they are very good teachers, and they're very good at implementing my ideas."

Update: Tony Jackson of the Daily News has this:

Colborn also implied the front office didn't consult Tracy and his staff enough before making major organizational decisions.

"You just never got the feeling you were part of the process," Colborn said. "You were part of it, but a dispensable part of it. But that's all right. Maybe they had their own point of view, and they probably figured (we) weren't going to carry out what they wanted done. They have the right to bring in their own people. But I don't really look at it is I did a bad job or that I failed any kind of test. But whatever I had to offer, they didn't think it was valuable."

It seems Jackson should have used (or Colborn should have implied) the words "listen to" instead of "consult." Either way, there are two things going on here - what happened before an organizational decision was made and what happened after. And however many meetings were held, DePodesta went his own way in making a decision, and Tracy and the coaches went their own way in carrying it out. Again, what's mostly significant is that the arrangement was not working.

Meanwhile, here's an Oakland Tribune feature from Josh Suchon on Ron Washington, who many thought would be a top Dodger managerial candidate because of his status as an Oakland A's coach. Washington interviews for the A's managerial position today.

As a manager, Washington said he would incorporate speed, finesse, power, aggressiveness and patience into his style.

"Whenever one of those styles is needed, I know how to use it," Washington said. "If I have to take it to the opposing team, I will. If the team is going well, I'll kick back and watch them play. If my offense is struggling, then I have to do something to help get them over it. You adjust to whatever the situation is."

Update 2: The London News Review opines in inimitable fashion:

The Walnut Street gang are wearing a worried look, and there's been a deal more horse spit than usual flying out from behind the Burlington Coat Factory. Because let's face it, not everyone in Pittsburgh is as chuffed as Dave Littlefield to see Jim Tracy pull on a Pirate hat and boots.

Last night I met George Romero, his mouth stuffed with a Primanti Brothers cheese steak, and he told me exactly what he thought of the Tracy shoe-in with a furious combination of gestures and coughs. And that's not all. Some jasper threw raddish tops onto junction 29 of the Turnpike, which in the language of the Rust Belt means "get the hell out of my town."

So, Tracy has been handed a beaver bone, but has he got the jaws?

Comments (185)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2005-10-11 22:48:07
1.   Eric L
Yet again, another excellent piece..

If it hasn't been said enough, thanks once again for this site. It might more than a few things tolerable this summer.

2005-10-11 22:58:56
2.   Uncle Miltie
I liked Colborn, but if getting rid of Tracy also means losing Colborn then it's worth it. I would like to see Wallach, Mota, and Shelby retained. I really do feel sorry for Pirates fans.
2005-10-11 23:06:22
3.   Bob Timmermann
No more John Shelby! But who will be the team's link to 1988? Can Danny Heep come back as a coach?
2005-10-11 23:17:41
4.   jasonungar05
I vote for Mike Davis. After all he did draw a big walk.
2005-10-11 23:22:43
5.   Steamer
Why the need to bang on Tracy? He's gone. DePo wanted his manager on the same page as him. Scary thought to me, but OK. Why is it a crime that Tracy says something similar when talking about his coaching staff?

I think the team will miss Colburn more than they know.

2005-10-11 23:28:00
6.   Romyrick
Tracy has lost his one in only good trait that he is a good stand up guy.
2005-10-11 23:28:22
7.   Bob Timmermann
I think Jon is upset about Tracy's seeming lack of accountability for anything that went wrong during the 2005 season.
2005-10-11 23:33:58
8.   Eric L
5 The key line was Jon's first quote "They get the messages I've been sending, they are very good teachers, and they're very good at implementing my ideas."

Not to re-hash what Jon wrote but..

1. Tracy likes his subordinates to listen and implement his ideas.

2. DePo tried to implement ideas to his subordinate(s). One of them, Jim Tracy, who values the guys that work for him to listen and implement his ideas, didn't listen and implement the ideas of his boss.

2005-10-11 23:40:17
9.   bigcpa
Quick- someone think of a game in 2004 that Tracy won for us? Was it the Rockies game the final week when Chacon walked 4 guys in a row with a 4-0 lead? Or the David Ross walkoff HR? Or the one where Hermanson walked the whole bench to blow the 3-0 lead? IIRC the Dodgers clinched by going 10-10 with these 3 divine miracles included. Don't get me wrong- I enjoyed every minute of it. But I don't ever recall thinking what a great manager we have- even at the peak of his 5 year run.
2005-10-11 23:50:59
10.   rageon
Alright, no more Jim Colborn. Now find out how much money would it get Dave Wallace back and give it to him.
2005-10-12 00:04:11
11.   bigcpa
I just stumbled on this gem from the Times database- 11/5/96

"He Figures to Be a Real Kick in the Pants"
Bill Plaschke

The new Angel manager is the old Houston Astro manager. He is the old Houston manager because, despite three winning seasons, he didn't pander to his players.

What a novel approach.

Under Collins, the Angels' complaints will be overruled, their pouting ignored, their lack of productivity challenged.

Under Collins, the Angels' manager will be the boss....

During his final years as manager of triple-A Albuquerque, Collins criticized Lasorda for the way he quickly benched top prospects who struggled. Lasorda was stung by the criticism, and one of baseball's quiet feuds ensued.

Would Collins be a good fit for the Dodgers? No. For the world champion New York Yankees? No. But for a team that recently left skid marks over good guys like Marcel Lachemann and Buck Rodgers? Ticking Terry Collins is walking into the party at the perfect time.

2005-10-12 00:31:58
12.   bigcpa
Reading over the stuff when Collins resigned is pretty interesting. The press really blamed the players for the team's collapse. Collins cried when facing the media on the way out. Diane Pucin wrote this in the Times:

"Collins, a good, fair man, a man who loves baseball, wants it to be played hard and wants his players to be loyal and to keep their mouths shut, has been managing a team of disloyal malcontents who have stabbed each other as well as their manager in the back. Collins punctuated many of his comments with sobs, he is so devastated by this turn of events." 9-4-99

Quite a contrast with the stuff we're getting from Tracy. And would you believe the '99 Angels were 70-92? Collins seems like a direct, honest guy who wouldn't feed us post-game silver linings after losses. But I'm not sure which current Dodgers need a fire lit under them for motivation.

2005-10-12 00:46:14
13.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
From my memories of Collins, he seems like yesterday's Larry Bowa. The main thing he led his teams to was outright revolt, in Anaheim AND Houston.
2005-10-12 00:50:00
14.   natepurcell
collins can stay as minor league director.

we need, fresh, young, hungry blood.

bring in torey lovullo. orel as pitching coach, gibson as bench coach and someone good as hitting coach.

just do it already depo. so we can get on to acquiring barry, adam, brian..... and alex.

2005-10-12 00:51:29
15.   Joon
8 Well, I don't think by saying what he said, Tracy was stating the importance that the subordinate listen to and implement the boss's ideas. It's more likely that Tracy believes it's important that his ideas should be listened to and implemented, regardless of who the subordinate is, because apparently his way is the right way.

"What took place in my first four years is a testament to the fact that a lot of it worked."
(Right after he said, "To say my feelings are correct or Paul's are correct is unfair.")

"You're going to have to convince me it doesn't work," Tracy said.
(This is from a separate article, but look how perfectly these quotes connect. It's really a common theme of recent Tracy interviews.)

2005-10-12 00:59:42
16.   natepurcell
colborn takes some shots at depo in the dailynews/tony jackson article.
2005-10-12 01:03:25
17.   scanderbeg
I did like Colborn and will be sad to see him go. It seems uncharacteristic for him to be taking shots at someone. I'm sure how DePo made the entire staff wait through most of the last off-season left a bad taste in Colborn's mouth.

Other than Beltre's great '04, has Tim Wallach gotten credit for anything else significant as a coach?

2005-10-12 01:15:29
18.   alex 7
keeping the 'roids away from 2005's 3rd basemen?
2005-10-12 01:40:16
19.   Robert Fiore
17: Izturis and Cora among others made progress as hitters in 2004, and one tended to give Wallach some credit.
2005-10-12 05:02:41
20.   Vishal
quote from colborn in the tony jackson article:

"Maybe they had their own point of view, and they probably figured (we) weren't going to carry out what they wanted done."

well geez, colby, what could possibly have given them that impression??

2005-10-12 06:57:01
21.   Sushirabbit
I hear there's a new movie out called "Tracy Dynamite"...
2005-10-12 07:14:39
22.   Terry A
21 Tracy to Wilson Alvarez: "Are you retiring 'cause you think you're fat?

"'Cause you're not. You could even start if you wanted to."

2005-10-12 07:26:24
23.   DadofMondy
My eight-year-old's comment after seeing the picture of Tracy on Dodger Blues: "Well, at least they'll be better this year." What, you don't think he looks like a buffoon?! Strangle strangle choke choke.
2005-10-12 07:31:19
24.   Sushirabbit
I still think Bud Black, might be a good idea. Is there any reason to think he's excluded from consideration?

Pedro for president...

2005-10-12 07:43:45
25.   LAT
What was once a movement to rid LA of Jim Tracy has apparently turned into a movement to rid baseball of him because he won't say "sorry, I too was wrong." He doesn't think he was wrong. He believes that the players he could win with were taken away from him. For him, its not about whether he had to play Phillips but that Phillips, not LoDuca, was on the team at all. Tracy believes that the gutting of the team was responsible for the collapse and not his on-field decisions. He has four winning seasons telling him he is correct. I don't agree with him and I am not a Tracy apologist but he is being condemned here because he will not admit he was wrong when we are so sure he is. How does that make us any different?

As for "It was clumsy, but the act ultimately accelerated a sensible parting of the ways." What was clumsy about it? He knew he had the Pitt job lined up so he made an aggressive play with the Dodgers. I would have made the same move in negotiating my livelihood. Not to mention, he got himself nearly twice the salary and a three year contract.

As for Colburn, I think the Dodgers will miss him (a lot). He has done a nice job of re-treading some of our favorites (read Nomo, Lima and Alverez, not Erickson) and developing our young pitchers, including the best closer in baseball.

Tracy & Co. are gone. Let them go in peace. Tracy is only part of the failure of 2005 and his scapgoating, IMO, has become disproportionate.

2005-10-12 07:44:01
26.   scareduck
12 Quite a contrast with the stuff we're getting from Tracy. And would you believe the '99 Angels were 70-92? Collins seems like a direct, honest guy who wouldn't feed us post-game silver linings after losses. But I'm not sure which current Dodgers need a fire lit under them for motivation.

Yes. The problem with it also is that it assumes Lasordian rah-rah-rah-ing can somehow affect the base value of particular players. It's another example of the 1988 thinking that has stymied the Dodgers ever since.

I herewith make a prediction: Tracy will be given three years and will be out of baseball thereafter. Going from one of the game's alleged marquee franchises to one of its worst is no accident.

2005-10-12 07:44:46
27.   Midwest Blue
Any chance that Orel would leave Texas to be pitching coach in LA with a chance to eventually be the manager?
2005-10-12 08:00:18
28.   Jon Weisman
25 - I hear what you're saying, and appreciate your call to maintain perspective. I do want to point out that I have not been scapegoating Tracy for 2005. I really haven't. I've been very careful to spread the blame around. What bothers me so much is Tracy not being willing to do the same.

As for the clumsy part, I guess I think that derives from giving your boss an ultimatum when there was still a pennant race at hand and when the timing re: McClendon was so transparent.

I have a major project at work due Friday. Should I go to my boss on Thursday and ask for a guaranteed raise? Or should I focus on getting my work done and deal with the raise afterward? Tracy complains about the lack of chemistry on the team - but instead of focusing on the team on the day before beginning a three-game series with the division-leading Padres, he was focused on himself.

I don't care to rid baseball for Tracy. In the right place, in a place where he's less insecure, he might prove of some value. And I'm not blaming 2005 all on him. There were the injuries, the fact that DePodesta isn't perfect and McCourt certainly isn't, and bad luck.

I don't need Tracy to admit he was wrong altogether. But his insistence that nothing that went wrong in 2005 falls on his shoulders is distasteful to me and unfair to the team I root for.

2005-10-12 08:05:45
29.   Improbable88
The idea of Orel and Gibby both on the Dodger bench sends chills up my spine...

Especially when you realize that they both embody an important "moneyball" necessity. The Bulldog obviously represents great pitching. He was an ace in that he was a guy you could count on every 4 or 5 days, or even out of the bullpen if needed. Every baseball strategy/philosophy rests firmly on good pitching, and Orel certainly was that...with Depo glasses and mind to boot.

Gibby certainly embodies what Moneyball offense is all about...he was clutch! The idea behind the moneyball offense is to get guys on base at a high clip so that others can knock them in. Well, Gibby certainly did not dissapoint in his many years with the Tigers and one healthy one with the Dodgers. When men were on base, Gibby delivered. He wasn't the highest paid or most talented, but he got results. He could add a tremendous of grit and hustle to this team. No matter the GM's views, you'd be hard-pressed to find a better bench coach than Kirk Gibson...

If hiring Alan Trammel means Gibby coming along, you know who I'm in favor of. I'm sure it would keep Shelby on too, and be an enticing situation for Orel...

but, can they take Deporders?

2005-10-12 08:06:37
30.   Izzy
Okay, I didn't like Tracy either. The reasons were mostly different than yours though Jon. So, let's just call this the final parting shot and move on-he's gone now. We don't need to keep kicking him all the way to Pittsburg. Anyways, the journey is almost complete. We will soon have a sabr manager and Depo will be able to have his ideas "implemented." There will be no more excuses to be made.
2005-10-12 08:19:37
31.   Sushirabbit
I will say that having seen the "machinations" of the Pirate organization (in Nashville), that I don't envy anyone that goes to work in that organization. There are some deep problems.

While the prospect of a whole new set of coaches is scary, I think that it can do some good, too. The Colburn thing also explains Gagne's recent tirade. Maybe if Gagne goes to Pittsburgh, the Pirates might win a few more when they get a lead... although Mesa did a far better job for a couple of years than I thought he could.

2005-10-12 08:21:41
32.   Penarol1916
If we're starting to speculate on pitching coaches, how about Ken Howell, down in Jacksonville, he seemed to do a pretty decent job, or even our minor league pitching coordinator, Rick Honeycutt?
2005-10-12 08:23:31
33.   Improbable88
Ken Howell = link to '88
2005-10-12 08:26:40
34.   SMY
I don't know enough about coaches to analyze them, and Orel was my favorite player growing up, but I don't think bringing back a bunch of ex-Dodgers simply because they are ex-Dodgers is going to solve anything, except for maybe shutting up the columnists for awhile. I'm sure DePo has much more useful criteria.
2005-10-12 08:28:08
35.   dzzrtRatt
Jim Colborn, who I'll definitely miss, was put in a no-win situation by Tracy. Why does Colborn think his ideas weren't being listened to or appreciated? I doubt he was given very many one on one opportunities to discuss pitching with DePodesta. It's because Tracy told him DePo wasn't listening to him. He set up all the coaches in opposition to the front office, so it is no surprise that the relationship is professionally torn.

As much as I think 'new blood' is the spirit that DePodesta is trying to instill, making a choice like Lovullo tempting, I'm hoping he does exactly what one of the above posters suggested: Hire Trammell, Gibson and Hershiser. Trammell is a good "chemistry" guy at manager. He's had experience taking young players from prospect to contributor. Gibby and Hershiser, like Trammell, are legendary players who have wisdom to impart both to our new players and the GM. The three of them, plus Mota and a decent batting coach, would create a baseball campus that combines the best analytical thinking combined with street smarts. I'm getting chills thinking about it. (Maybe I should go inside.)

2005-10-12 08:36:41
36.   Screwgie
Via Buc's Dugout, taken aparently from Tracy's press conference:

"The Cardinals are a tremendous model," Tracy said. "They're interesting for this reason -- they can kill you with the long ball. But what takes place with that club in between that long one being hit is what's most damaging about them."...

"It's the intangibles they have," Tracy said. "They do the little things. Sure, they can thunder you in a heartbeat. But where they really beat you down is when Albert Pujols hits the ball through the hole on a hit-and-run and it's first and third and nobody out."

May God help the Pirates.

2005-10-12 08:38:14
37.   Improbable88
34 - Has Orel not done a good job in Texas?? Does Gibby not embody the inspiration and determination tha every bench coach should aspire to??

It's not like there is some moneyball criteria for pitching and bench coaches. There is no moneyball pitching strategy, and likewise, no moneyball inspirational agenda. Why not bring back two favorites to stress the greatness of this frnachise, to remind the players of what's at stake??

Hell, why not dump Lasorda as a special advisor??

Are we to denounce all links to our great past?

Of course, a manager should be on the same page philosophically with the GM in order for the team to function properly. But I've yet to hear Depo's radical views on pitching and bench coaches. Good pitching coaches are good pitching coaches regardless of Moneyball or smartball or whatever. And a bench coach?? C'Mon! Who could be better than Gibby??

2005-10-12 08:40:22
38.   blue22
36 - I'm sure Tracy stood up and applauded when Jermaine Dye tried to bunt his way on leading off the sixth last night, down by 1.

Heck, even Tim McCarver thought it was a dumb idea.

2005-10-12 08:41:46
39.   Improbable88
38 - Speaking of which -- Geez! How many outs did the White Sox give up last night? It had to be in the 7 or 8 neighborhood!
2005-10-12 08:41:57
40.   LAT
Jon, you have always maintained that the failure of 2005 was a perfect storm of injuries, personnel decisions and plain bad luck. And I agree.

As for the ultimatum, I guess it doesn't bother me because its just business. If your contract were up shortly after your Friday project, asking for a raise on Thursday is fine, assuming you are not extorting the raise. i.e. "I am not turning in the project until I get the raise." It also depends on the relationship between the employee and the employer. If there are years of good faith and trust there, then the negotiation can wait. If not, I expect my employees will do what they need to for themselves and their family. Just as I expect the employer to do what's best for his company. I assume Tracy did not think the trust or long term relationship was there.

As for the scapgoating, that wasn't directed at you. Just a general observation that we sometimes get carried away when it comes to Tracy.

Agreed. It would be nice if Tracy exhibited the humility to acknowledge that he made mistakes. I would have liked to see a little more grace under fire (not the TV show before someone says it). I wonder whether he thought it would effect his marketablity to admit fault.

Anyway, here's to the future, excited that the wheels will finally all be moving in the same direction.

2005-10-12 08:43:17
41.   Javier Gutierrez
Well the Dodgers future manager will still pick his guys no?
2005-10-12 08:44:34
42.   SMY
37 -- Well, I don't know. Texas' team ERA was 4.96, 25th in the league. And Detroit was 71-91, so I'm not sure how much Gibson really inspired anyone, if that's what bench coaches even do.

Look, I'm not saying they wouldn't be good choices -- I don't know anything about their philosophies, teaching styles, whatever. I'm just saying that the fact that they were former Dodgers shouldn't be the biggest factor, and I'm fairly certain that DePo won't be giving that a lot of weight.

2005-10-12 08:45:51
43.   blue22
39 - I'm having a very difficult time watching this series already (and Buck/McCarver/Piniella are only responsible for maybe 40% of my aversion).

Hopefully Stl/Hou will be easier on the eyes.

2005-10-12 08:48:07
44.   LAT
38. If Tim Mccarver thinks it was a dumb idea, it is by definition, the right idea, no matter what the idea is.
2005-10-12 08:49:13
45.   jasonungar05
I am still much more frustrated at 2003 then 2005. My whole life I heard that pitching and defense wins and then we had the best defense and the best pitching staff in baseball HISTORY and couldnt even make the playoffs.
2005-10-12 08:55:58
46.   Sam DC
45 Very good point.
2005-10-12 08:59:13
47.   blue22
Do you think that Joe Buck was feeling left out last night? Every time Piniella made a point, he addressed McCarver.

"Centerfielder is shifted towards right, Timmy"

"Managers won't call hit and run again after it fails the first time, Timmy"

2005-10-12 09:05:34
48.   Jon Weisman
30, 40 - I think I've pretty much exhausted my venting on Tracy. Here's to the future, absolutely.
2005-10-12 09:05:50
49.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
Will Carroll, who has written a book about pitching, has praised Hershiser as one of the brightest young pitching coaches around. For what that's worth. And he has gotten good results in Coors South.

That said, it makes me a little uneasy when we urge DePo to give hometown heroes a leg up. I'm all for a meritocracy over nepotism. Let's hire the best guys, no matter who they played for.

Orel seems to have other qualifications to recommend him, but I'm not so sure about Gibby. I remember the column Mike Downey wrote when Gibby left talking about what an absolute jerk he was. I'm not sure whether to believe that or not, but it's something to consider.

For those advocating the hiring of Gibby, any reasons to offer beyond his intense playing style? I know very little of his coaching career.

2005-10-12 09:09:14
50.   Improbable88
42 - Bah! Look at where the Rangers pitch! Was it even worse than the Dodgers ERA this year, and in a famous pitcher's park!? That's like holding the Rockies' pithcing coach accountable for the altitude. A team ERA under 5 in Texas, with a lackluster staff, doesn't sound do bad.

They interviewed a bunch of Tiger's players when they were in town last year and they all said what a great thing it was to have a guy like Gibby on the bench...maybe the better question is, how terribly uninspired would they have been WITHOUT gibby!

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2005-10-12 09:10:07
51.   Bob Timmermann
While we can agree not to vent about Tracy, the whole issue is going to be brought up again in April.

If the Pirates start out 4-0 and the Dodgers 1-3, the newspapers will be full of people boiling tar and collecting feathers and heading for Dodger Stadium to look for Messrs. McCourt and DePodesta.

Is Jim Tracy going to turn out to be Mike Shanahan or John Robinson?

2005-10-12 09:11:53
52.   Improbable88
49 - Isn't Mickey Hatcher a great bench coach??

Mickey Hatcher = B Kirk Gibson

2005-10-12 09:13:14
53.   Colorado Blue
40 - If your contract were up shortly after your Friday project, asking for a raise on Thursday is fine

Tracy had another year on his contract...

2005-10-12 09:15:24
54.   Mark
First of all: Napoleon Dynamite was a terrible movie, insipid, and almost utterly devoid of humor. The entire first hour and fifteen minutes was just a leadup to a five-minute dance routine that you can see at almost every wedding in the country. And the next time I see a "Vote for Pedro" t-shirt I'm going to give the wearer a punch in the throat. The movie was that bad.

Second: Jon, this article smacks of taking cheap potshots at someone who is no longer associated with the team. I have to say, I am extremely disappointed with your presumed tone in this article. Don't stoop to Tracy's level of burning bridges-- your karma will absolutely come back to you.

If Simers or Plaschke were advocating the firing of Tracy, this is the type of article I envision them writing.

2005-10-12 09:15:59
55.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
45 That's because the "pitching/defense wins championships" mantra is untrue. Historically, the World Series champion is as likely to lead the league in scoring as in run prevention. Usually they're pretty good at both.

43 Funny, but I was greatly relieved that it wasn't Joe Morgan calling this series. I'll take McCarver over him any day. For the most part, I've given up hoping that the announcers will even acknowledge the Saber point of view, so my expectations are low.

2005-10-12 09:19:30
56.   Improbable88
42 - Dodgers team ERA 4.39 with a starting staff complete with two world series heroes, a former cy young winner, and other previously successful pitchers...

Rangers team ERA 4.97 with a starting staff complete with two starters that lasted the whole season, assorted bums, and every decent pitcher traded by season's end...

Are we really having a discussion proving Orel's worth on a Dodgers blog??

2005-10-12 09:27:19
57.   LAT
If we are going to hire Gibby cause of his playing style, let's just make Kent the player-manager. I always thought it was funny when teams used to do that, espicially in basketball. How does the player-manager decide when to put himself in or take himself out. I guess if your Pete Rose it depends on the spread.
2005-10-12 09:30:59
58.   SMY
50, 56 -- Sure, 4.97 is pretty good, given the circumstances. For what it's worth, the team ERA was 4.53 in 2004, although it was over 5.00 the two years before that. But we don't even know who any other candidates might be, or what their qualifications are.

I've already stated my argument isn't with either Orel or Gibson's qualifications -- I said I don't know enough about them to evaluate. My issue is with the idea that we need a bunch of former Dodgers to recapture past glory, because I don't think it works that way.

Post #49 sums it up perfectly -- just hire the best people, regardless of where they played before. That's all I'm saying.

And I'm pretty sure Mickey Hatcher is a hitting coach isn't he? He was, at least.

2005-10-12 09:34:45
59.   Jon Weisman
54 - You may have a point about stooping to Tracy's level, Mark. And I am not proud of the tone of this article.

I think Tracy is a hypocrite, and it's hard for me to let that slide, for the reasons I pointed out in comment #28. I don't think I took cheap shots - I think they were very well earned based on what Tracy said yesterday. But I'm with the people who are ready to move on.

As for karma, with the week I've been having, it's safe to say it's already done its job. My name is Jon.

2005-10-12 09:39:18
60.   Improbable88
58 - The point is, any Mick can do Kirk can better. Kirk can do anything better than Mick!
2005-10-12 09:41:16
61.   Improbable88
Hasn't an all 88 Dodger coaching staff worked just fine for the Halos?!
2005-10-12 09:43:03
62.   jasonungar05
The biggest problem I have with Jim Tracy is that he basically gave up on 2005 before it began.
2005-10-12 09:47:52
63.   Penarol1916
61. Bud Black was on the 88 Dodgers?
2005-10-12 09:50:27
64.   SMY
Put another way, if the 2005 Texas Rangers put up that 4.97 ERA with, I don't know, Ron Darling as their pitching coach, or the Tigers went 71-91 with, say, Lenny Dykstra as their bench coach, would people be clamoring for them?

I suspect not.

2005-10-12 09:50:53
65.   Improbable88
Bud Black played for the BLue in 1988, correct.
2005-10-12 09:51:05
66.   Jon Weisman
See update 2 above. The London News Review would appear to have found a more engaging tone.
2005-10-12 09:51:48
67.   Improbable88
64 - Gah!

p.s. royal blue

2005-10-12 09:54:00
68.   Jon Weisman
65 - incorrect.
2005-10-12 09:55:53
69.   Improbable88
64- mattingly coaches on the yankees
iquendo on the cardinals
shelby on the dodgers
...the list goes on endlessly act like there is only ONE man capable of doing the job.

2005-10-12 09:56:44
70.   Improbable88
68 - see clever footnote post
2005-10-12 09:57:58
71.   SMY
69 -- No, I think you're acting like there is only ONE man capable for the job. My point is that there could be others that aren't necessarily Orel or Gibson, and we shouldn't immediately jump to them simply because they used to wear the uniform.

I guess we misunderstand each other.

2005-10-12 09:59:24
72.   Improbable88
I guess you hate former Dodger greats
2005-10-12 09:59:42
73.   SMY
Yeah, I guess I do. Sorry.
2005-10-12 10:00:37
74.   Improbable88
I'm just saying, all things being equal..let's infuse the clubhouse with smart, tenacious, important reminders of our past
2005-10-12 10:00:42
75.   Jon Weisman
70 - okay. Strange, but okay.

I take it 72 is sarcastic as well, since 71's point is very clear.

2005-10-12 10:00:51
76.   dzzrtRatt
After update #2, I'm not sure I ever need to be updated again.

Perhaps Jim Tracy is the Dominique de Villepin of baseball.

2005-10-12 10:01:49
77.   Improbable88
I'm there with you for a manager though...Depo should pick THE BEST canidate...

..and then surround him with 88 Dodgers

2005-10-12 10:02:16
78.   Jon Weisman
74 - All coaches are not necessarily equal.
2005-10-12 10:03:23
79.   Improbable88
I take it 71's point is clear as well, since 72's point is very sarcastic.
2005-10-12 10:04:09
80.   SMY
74 -- That's fine, if all things are equal, but we don't know if they are yet. If it turns out that Orel and Gibson, or John Tudor, or Mike Davis, or Rene Gonzalez, or Danny Heep, or Tim Leary are the best people for the job, I'll be right there with you.
2005-10-12 10:04:42
81.   Improbable88
80 - Excellent. Let's cross our fingers!!
2005-10-12 10:16:19
82.   dzzrtRatt
71 What gave me chills was more the idea of Trammell. I think he brings the best package of skills to the Dodger job. What he did in taking a horrible, inexperienced Tiger team from 2003 to 2004 is pretty outstanding. He took much the same team and improved it by 29 wins. That can't all be due to the addition of Ivan Rodriguez's bat. So, it would seem his skills are as a teacher of younger players, and keeping a team on track that is just starting to gel. At the same time, he is Alan Trammell, the kind of player a Jeff Kent, Eric Gagne or J.D. Drew is bound to respect based on the entirity of his career. Gibson as part of the Trammell package is just a bonus. Adding Orel into the mix seems less likely--for all we know, he loves Texas. I agree with whoever said Throw Money at Dave Wallace.

Collins gives me the willies. Luvollo and Wotus might be fine, but not for this team right now. They come from outside the organization, and will come in having to prove themselves. The players are already feeling mutinous toward DePodesta (again probably thanks to Jim Tracy's mind games); throwing them an inexperienced manager would just reinforce Gagne's nightmare that he's playing in Milwaukee. Royster seems like a good second choice, but Trammell is the guy I'd want.

2005-10-12 10:16:53
83.   Bob Timmermann
Rene Gonzalez was not on the 1988 Dodgers. Jose Gonzalez was.

How about Tim Belcher? He was a "people person".

2005-10-12 10:19:46
84.   SMY
82 -- I can see that, if I remember correctly, when I lived in San Diego, Trammell was very highly thought of as a coach.
2005-10-12 10:22:12
85.   SMY
83 -- Not only that, he didn't even play for the Dodgers at all! I wonder where I got Rene from. Probably had his baseball card in my mind's eye or something.

How about Tracy Woodson?

2005-10-12 10:22:34
86.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
As for Mickey Hatcher, he has been blamed for the Angels' "swing at everything" approach. That style is one part of the illustrious Dodger past that I'd rather leave behind.
2005-10-12 10:22:43
87.   Bob Timmermann
Rene Gonzalez did play for the Angels in the early 1990s.
2005-10-12 10:23:08
88.   Curtis Lowe
82-I remember when the Dodgers and the Tigers plated this year thinking to myself that Trammell should be the Dodgers coach and not Tracy, lets hope he will be the next Apprentice errr uhhh manager.
2005-10-12 10:25:07
89.   SMY
Rene, Jose, what difference does it really make?
2005-10-12 10:25:52
90.   Improbable88
Can we find somewhere to put Franklin Stubbs?
2005-10-12 10:30:09
91.   Mark
66 "1. Tracy might have a girl's name, but he's got a man's balls, and he's not afraid to willow them round the locker-room like a pair of youth center pool balls in a sports sock."

That is an image that I'm not certain I'm altogether fond of.

2005-10-12 10:35:17
92.   Bob Timmermann
Rene Gonzalez played in parts of 13 seasons with an OPS+ of 75!

Jose Gonzalez played in parts of 8 season with an OPS+ of 69!

Rene Gonzalez was on the ill-fated 1992 Angels squad that went 70-92. The only player from that squad who is still (officially) active is Tim Salmon. Gary Gaetti led that team with 12 home runs. Luis Polonia had the highest batting average at .286.

It had some decent pitchers. The leader in saves was the famed Joe Grahe.

2005-10-12 10:36:53
93.   SMY
38 -- The worst part is this quote:

"Jermaine Dye hit 31 home runs this season, but with the Sox trailing by a run he tried bunting to lead off the sixth inning. He popped out to pitcher Paul Byrd. "The third baseman was playing way back,'' he said. "If they're going to give us that, we've got to take it. He was making his pitches and we needed to get something going against him. It was a good idea, I just didn't get it down."

No, no, no...If you are Scott Podsednik or Chone Figgins or someone like that, OK, maybe you can take it if they are giving it to you. But if you are Jermaine Dye, or Paul Konerko, or David Ortiz, or JD Drew, you should emphatically NOT take it.

2005-10-12 10:37:50
94.   rageon
82 Dave Wallace was my suggestion. I've always thought that he's one of the brightest pitching minds in the game and gets no where near the credit he deserves. I can't think of an instance where he went to a new team and that teams pitching didn't immediately get better. (Sort of like Davey Johnson and hitting.) I don't think I've ever understood why he left LA. Did he really leave because he wasn't the pitching coach here and wanted to be? I thought his front office position was a promotion, not a demotion. I'd love it if someone had an explanation about what happened.

Likewise, Terry Collins is pretty much my last choice among the 5 being interviewed, as well as the others who had been rumored/suggested. I think that LA needs to go with a younger manager, similiar to what Cleveland did hiring Wedge. That said, I think that given the atmosphere of the clubhouse, the manager is going to have to command respect of the players immediately and convince them to get on board with the overall plan. Trammell could probably be this guy. I certainly wouldn't be upset by his hiring.

2005-10-12 10:41:42
95.   rageon

First ARod, now Nomar. What is it with shortstops and saving lives? Jeter keep his eye open, he's probably next in line to have to save some people.

2005-10-12 10:47:07
96.   Bob Timmermann
And both of them get moved to third base as a reward.
2005-10-12 10:50:50
97.   carmiguel
I noticed Tim Wallach was not in the list of those who initially followed Tracy to Pittsburgh. In addition to Mota, I hope the Dodgers keep Wallach.
Also, it looks like Joe Girardi is going to get the Florida managing job and Perlozzo is being made a permanent skipper in Baltimore. This doesn't leave many openings for Ken Macha. I didn't see his name on the Dodger list. I wonder if he would consider a position as bench coach with the Dodgers.
2005-10-12 10:56:10
98.   Improbable88
Macha < Gibson
2005-10-12 10:56:39
99.   Sam DC
Odd story in the Post today about the exec fallings out in Baltimore. Apparently, under Mike Flanagan, the team has been using a psychological profiling tool (called the "ISAM") techniques to evaluate players. The article quotes an internal memo: "Consistent with the Orioles' policy in regard to signing drafted amateur players, effective immediately no player is to be signed to an Orioles minor league contract without an acceptable ISAM profile on hand. . . . No position player will be signed who scores less than a 3 on a valid, accurate ISAM; nor will any pitcher be signed who scores less than a 4 on a valid, accurate ISAM." Also a June 2003 memo quoted in the article notes that BJ Ryan only scored a 2 and suggests that he be moved in favor of John Parrish: "Parrish is not bright -- which is why he can't cut it as a starter -- but he has a heck of a profile."

What amazes me even more is that this stuff is buried in a bland article about the possibility of Perlozzo returning. Can you imagine the play it would get in LA? (or go to and look for the article "Orioles, Perlozzo talk")

2005-10-12 11:00:16
100.   popup
53, Colorado, yes Jim Tracy did have another year on his contract. But that contract had an escape clause. Whoever is drafting these contracts with Tracy and Drew needs to get rid of the unilateral escape clauses. If you want to sign Tracy to a two year contract, sign him to a two year contract. If you only want one year of Tracy, sign him to a one year contract instead of hoping that he will exercise his escape clause after year one. The escape clause creates uncertainty that undermines the reason for negotiating a long term contract in the first place.

Stan from Tacoma

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2005-10-12 11:01:38
101.   Sushirabbit
I went out and bought my Pedro for Prez shirt. Now if only I could get Mark to see me.

Update #2 was fantastic.

Just as a fan of baseball, I always hope the Royals, the Mariners, (the 2005 Dodgers,) and the Pirates of the world can find a way to scrap back into contention. So I'd be fine with the team suceeding with or without Tracy.

As to the contention that it is unbecoming to skewer Tracy with wit and facts and his own words, well, I do not agree. Call a spade a spade. (or a rose a rose, if you prefer). In fact, I feel just the opposite, any decent Dodger fan ought to feel piqued at the very least.

Wonder how Penny, Kent and Valentin and all the others feel about Tracy saying basically, "well, we could have won with those other (better) guys"?

All of what Tracy has been spouting is unnecessary. He knew he had the job in Pittsburgh. He is just deflecting instead of taking responsibility. In fact, I might could stomach all his spew if he had at least once acknowledged his own part in the tragedy of the season.

2005-10-12 11:12:23
102.   Improbable88
Why are both playoff games on at the same time??
2005-10-12 11:19:44
103.   Bob Timmermann
Both games are on the same time because Fox feels that not as many people would watch a day game for Game 1 or 2.
2005-10-12 11:30:43
104.   rageon
102 When was the last time MLB did anything that made you say, "Wow, they really know how to market themselves really well."
2005-10-12 11:31:29
105.   popup
Remembering Sandy:

The Dodgers returned to the World Series in 1963 to face the New York Yankees. As the undisputed ace of a talented pitching staff, Sandy drew the opening game assignment against New York's Whitey Ford at Yankee Stadium.

Sandy pitched a gem. He struck out the first 5 hitters he faced in the game-- Tony Kubek, Bobby Richardson, Tom Tresh, Mickey Mantle and Roger Maris. Through the first 4 innings Sandy was perfect, with 9 of the 12 outs being strikeouts.

Unlike his start in the 1959 World Series, the Dodgers scored some runs for Sandy. In the 2nd inning ex-Yankee Bill Skowron singled home Frank Howard who had doubled and John Roseboro reached Ford for a 3 run homerun to right to stake Sandy to a 4-0 lead. In the 3rd, Bill Skowron's single plated the 5th run for the Dodgers.

The Yankees reached Koufax for their first hit in the 5th. Two more singles loaded the bases, but Sandy pitched out of trouble by fanning Hector Lopez to end the threat. Through 5 innings Sandy had 11 strikeouts.

Sandy failed to record a strikeout in the 6th. In the 7th he struck out Elston Howard for his 12th strikeout of the game.

Phil Linz was Sandy's 13th strikout to begin the 8th. Tony Kubek reached Sandy for an infield hit. After striking out Bobby Richardson for his 14th K, Tom Tresh hit a homerun to left to spoil the shutout.

When the Yankees came to bat in the 9th, all eyes were on Sandy. His strikeout of Bobby Richardson in the 8th tied Sandy with Brooklyn Dodger Carl Erskine for the most strikeouts by a pitcher in a World Series game. With two outs, Sandy faced pinch hitter Harry Bright and he struck him out to establish a World Series record for strikeouts and seal a 5-2 Dodger win.

Sandy's pitching line in his complete game victory was 6 hits, 3 walks 15 strikeouts and 2 earned runs.

Thanks to retrosheet

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-12 11:35:20
106.   Bob Timmermann
The Wednesday of the LCS round is the only time that two games are supposed to be played simultaneously.

Somehow, I think we'll survive. I also think that the NLCS will be of pretty limited interest outside the St. Louis and Houston areas for the casual baseball fans.

The ALCS is going to be the big ratings winner.

2005-10-12 11:47:39
107.   Borchard504
I liked the Ron Washington quotes. I'll come back and read the whole article. Jon's lack of humility points are right on, Tracy and Karros. That is one thing I've always liked about MB, after things went bad for him. I can only venture to inquire about Karros (chuckling here) - as an out of towner, can someone explain - is it from his broadcast work?
2005-10-12 12:00:52
108.   Goozmani
I liked the Washington quote as well. When the offense is struggling (and you know when it is), the manager has to make things happen. Dont intervene too much, though.

I hated Tracy's X's and O's (if there were any). Player manager? Ok. When we were winning, I still did not like his managing. So heres to hope the next guy goesn't make Tracy look like a great one. Cant really imagine that happening.

2005-10-12 12:06:05
109.   Adam M
107 - Oh no. Karros' problem was a healthy sense of entitlement plus an overestimation of his own abilities that was remarkably resistant to experience. Either is fine by themselves, but they are deadly in combination, as was discovered by every team Karros ever played for.

Karros is also indirectly annoying because every Dodger Cassandra seems to share the same qualities: Paul Lo Duca was their favorite Dodger of the last 8 years, and the Dodgers should never have dealt Eric Karros.

2005-10-12 12:16:35
110.   Jon Weisman
I'm mixed on the Washington quotes, because I'm not sure his idea of making things happen when the offense is struggling wouldn't exclude having Drew bunt or Robles steal.
2005-10-12 12:31:17
111.   Im So Blue
94 Dave Wallace left the Dodgers on June 10, 2003 to become the interim pitching coach for the Red Sox, filling in for Tony Cloninger who had cancer.

Making Wallace's move to the Red Sox possible was Dodgers GM Dan Evans. Wallace was serving as a vice president in the Dodgers front office...Largely because of Wallace's New England roots -- Waterbury, Conn. -- Evans decided that letting him take the opportunity in Boston was the right thing to do. In the process, he said good-bye to a man who has spent 20 of his last 23 seasons in the Dodgers organization.

2005-10-12 12:33:26
112.   Adam M
Reading Plaschke So You Don't Have To: today's Angel mash note is directed to Scioscia. You might assume there was no way he could manage to write a piece praising Scioscia without mentioning Scioscia's former employer, but Plaschke does just that.

Until the final paragraph, that is (note that when speaking about Plasch, the word "paragraph" is always used loosely):

"If nothing else, he continues to make the Dodgers think hard.

Yeah, remember the Dodgers?

They currently are looking for a new manager, their third since Scioscia took over the Angels in 2000, their third since Scioscia was unceremoniously nudged through their doors.

He'll never talk about the mistake they made.

He already believes he manages the most important team in Los Angeles. Thanks in part to him, he's right."

Although this type of dig is par for the course for Plaschke, it seems really incongruous to wait until the end to insert it into what would otherwise be just a standard postgame weepy. You have to conclude that, needing a few more column inches to fill, Plaschke reached into his bag of tricks (inventory: two items), pulled out "Bash Dodgers," and and what emerged is the winning and synergistic Plaschke formula of hackery + disingenuousness. "Dodger: Bad" has become the Hamburger Helper of LA sportswriting (don't ever call it journalism).

What's almost even more unfair about this is the message it sends to Los Angeles of Anaheim fans: without the Dodgers' mistakes, your team is nothing. I personally don't buy this argument, you probably don't either, but Plaschke is happy to remind you every chance he gets.

2005-10-12 12:44:32
113.   Telemachos
Have there been any reports about yesterday's interview and/or today's? I'm not expecting much, but I'd think some media person would have a sentence or two.
2005-10-12 12:46:55
114.   Jon Weisman
113 - Well, they happened. But I wouldn't expect info in the middle of a job interview process beyond "it went well."
2005-10-12 13:03:06
115.   SMY
Only marginally related to Plaschke: I wrote Paul Oberjuerge an e-mail about his column on the Tracy firing that Jon linked to, and he wrote me a nice response back. He also asked if I was a regular reader of the SB Sun, since he seemed to be getting a lot of people who wouldn't normally visit the paper's site. I informed him about DT, so beware, he might be watching you :)
2005-10-12 13:04:08
116.   Curtis Lowe
So if Depo goes with Trammell then Gibson is in blue again which is a great thing but what worries me is why was Trammell fired from Detroit? And is Trammell the kind of coach that could help the prospects be stars when they arrive in droves over the next 3 seasons?
2005-10-12 13:09:41
117.   Telemachos
116 Trammell, from what I understand, helped a young Tiger team improve 29 games from '03 to '04. However, this year there was no improvement, and I guess he was on a short leash.

114 Jon, something like that would be what I'd expect... but I haven't even seen that.

2005-10-12 13:16:45
118.   Goozmani
Jon, I cant imagine anybody in their right mind would have Drew bunt, ever. There are times for it, and there are players for it. For some reason, Im thinking Ron is a step ahead of JimmyT.

On a side note, I dont like the fact that Izturis is disabled because I think he could be packaged for a premeire player. Allowing Aybar to start at third, with Choi at first.

2005-10-12 13:16:59
119.   Curtis Lowe
Does anyone have any information regarding Trammells judgement on pitcher quality/endurance, would he be the type of manager the leave a pitcher who gives up tons of home runs in with 2 on 1 out in the 7th inning with only a 1 run lead?
2005-10-12 13:22:39
120.   natepurcell
in our situation where the prospects are going to be arriving by the handful for the next 3 years or so, we are going to need a manager who has experiencing in working with young and talented.

personally, what lovullo has done the last 3 years in the indians org really catches my eye. Hes the type of guy who has worked directly with prospects and has gotten the most out of them and has a history of winning.

2005-10-12 13:37:41
121.   Uncle Miltie
After the press conference, Jim Tracy was interviewed by a FSN anchor. Here's what he said
Q: How do it come to fruition so quickly?
Tracy: Shortly after I made the decision to not return to Los Angeles....

This is not what happened Jimbo! You were fired before you were allowed to opt out of your contract!

2005-10-12 13:38:07
122.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
115 I worked with Oberjuerge at the Sun for about a year some time back. Great guy, excellent columnist, head and shoulders above any columnist in the LAT sports section. He's expert at debunking the conventional "wisdom" so prevalent in much sports writing. I've wished for years that the Times would hire him. His thoughtful writing deserves a wider readership.
2005-10-12 13:49:26
123.   Colorado Blue
100 - There is no uncertainty on Tracy's side. For example, if I ask for a raise on Thursday so I can walk or sit tight for another year I'm in a great position. If my employer says no, then I have a week to test the market. If yes, then goody!

Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought you compared Tracy to the guy who's last day was Friday. Tracy's last day was at his whim. Of course, DePo probably would have fired him anyway. If my boss fires me there is no year's salary to get by on.

2005-10-12 13:54:54
124.   regfairfield
123 Tracy would have had next years salary to get by on. Good ol' guaranteed contracts.
2005-10-12 13:55:07
125.   natepurcell
this doesnt have to do with dodgers or baseball, but one of my favorite bands- curl up and die, has just announced that they are breaking up.

i am sadden. i will probably fall into a 2 month depression and the only thing that will get me out of it if depo gets barry, adam, brian and... alex.

2005-10-12 13:56:21
126.   Colorado Blue
124 - That was exactly my point! You or I would not...
2005-10-12 13:59:19
127.   King of the Hobos
125 Will the depression cause you to curl up and die?
2005-10-12 14:05:56
128.   regfairfield
126 Ah, sorry.
2005-10-12 14:06:20
129.   Uncle Miltie
125- it can't be worse than the Mighty Mighty Bosstones breaking up.
2005-10-12 14:09:16
130.   natepurcell
some of the younger posters here like Identity crisis or vishal and some others, will probably recognize the band name.
2005-10-12 14:10:43
131.   das411 depression jokes please.


2005-10-12 14:14:16
132.   blue22
125 - I felt the same way when Soundgarden broke up.

Of course, if that hadn't happened, there would be no Audioslave, so keep your chin up and hope for better things to come.

2005-10-12 14:22:57
133.   Penarol1916
125- I felt the same way when rock and roll died, but then I learned to embrace cheesey old music and laugh at any music that takes itself in a remotely serious fashion.
2005-10-12 14:24:24
134.   popup
Colorado, I am not comparing Tracy to anyone. I thought my comment was clear, but I will try again. A two year contract with a unilateral opt out for either side defeats the purpose of a long term contract. The whole point in signing a long term deal is to provide certainty going forward. The opt out creates uncertainty going forward. If the two sides want uncertainty going forward stick to a short term contract.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-12 14:29:24
135.   King of the Hobos
Another FA today, this time the great AJ Hinch. I'm sure DePo will quickly sign Inge's backup from the '03 Tigers
2005-10-12 14:35:49
136.   Borchard504
125 - Felt the same way when the Plimsouls split up, but I'd feel worse if Adam Dunn was a Dodger, don't get me started.
2005-10-12 14:37:30
137.   Jon Weisman
135 - A Stanford Cardinal and multi-Olympian to boot!
2005-10-12 14:53:34
138.   fawnkyj
I still feel that way about rage against the machine and the smashing pumpkins. And now there is talk of Outkast breaking up. Oh well i guess that stuff just happens.
2005-10-12 14:56:58
139.   blue22
138 - Better to break up than it is to sellout. And yes, I'm looking at you Metallica! Lars, James, you should be ashamed of yourselves!
2005-10-12 14:58:25
140.   Uncle Miltie
139- agree, don't forget Green Day and even Blink 182
2005-10-12 15:06:23
141.   Curtis Lowe
140-Sorry but green day was never good and since blink 182 modeled their sound off of green day they also sucked. I will now revert back to my job.
2005-10-12 15:09:02
142.   Borchard504
139 - 'It's better to burn out, than it is to rust'
2005-10-12 15:16:25
143.   blue22
I'm a fan of both Blink and Green Day to a certain extent, but neither came close to what Metallica was in the 80s. I just pretend that they all decided to go their seperate ways after filming the video to "One".

Denial can be a wonderful thing.

2005-10-12 15:17:50
144.   fanerman
Denial... Dodger Thoughts' favorite word of the summer.
2005-10-12 15:18:47
145.   dzzrtRatt
109 I try not to think about Eric Karros and Jim Tracy on the same day. They are my two least favorite people to wear a Dodger uniform in the past 15 years, for all the reasons everyone has stated. But I have to reconcile that with the fact that they hated each other. We probably have Tracy to thank for Karros' departure to Chicago, where he recieved the humbling treatment he so richly deserved. This is one case where "the enemy of my enemy" can still be my enemy.

116 In addition to seeing no improvement in '05 over '04, it's pretty clear that Tiger GM Dombrowski wanted to reunite with his 1997 Florida Marlins manager Jim Leyland. Which, so far, looks like the biggest mistake anyone's made this off-season.

From scanning Tiger-related blogs, the take on Trammell seems to be:

1) It's not his fault the team had bad players, pitchers especially, or that Dombrowski's free agent signings were stupid, or that I-Rod and Carlos Guillen had seasons far below what was predicted for them. It's unfair to blame him.

2) On the other hand, it is impossible to discern based on the past three seasons whether he is, at this time, a good manager. The players were of such low quality, and the 2003 team especially was "the worst roster in the history of the major leagues," Trammell's own contributions are hard to measure.

3) Trammell is a stand-up guy for taking the job in '03 (against Sparky Anderson's advice), and because of his long service to the team, including playing short for them at a salary far below the market for a player of his quality (he never had an agent), the Tigers should have treated him better, and let him finish out his contract at least.

Here's a fairly typical post:

With all of that, he's still my first choice. He's experienced, but not set in his ways; DePo can get him to buy into his vision for the team. Unlike Tracy, whose whole career has been with teams that had built-in alibis, Trammell has been a winner. The team will respect him, the media will respect him, and he'll in turn show respect for the team, the fans and the Dodger tradition.

I'm not hung up on this, but he just looks like the best of a pretty good bunch.

2005-10-12 15:26:13
146.   Borchard504
145 - Stay tuned next year for a Pirates game, with Karros on the TV crew - I personally can't wait. Just think of the glibness... Of course I might have to wait a long time, to see Pittburgh on national TV.
2005-10-12 15:30:32
147.   dzzrtRatt
When the Beatles broke up, it was sad, but it led to "All Things Must Pass," and "Imagine." When the Faces broke up, it was sad, but sadder still, it led to "Do Ya Think I'm Sexy?"

My favorite bands, like the Kinks, the Rolling Stones and Steely Dan, never break up. They just go on long vacations.

Other bands can break up, and all their most talented members can retire or die, but they keep performing. Such as Queen, featuring Paul Rodgers impersonating Freddie Mercury. Or the Beach Boys, now performing without any member of the Wilson family involved. Or Creedence Clearwater "Revisited" which somehow gets people to show up to concerts even though John Fogerty isn't part of it. Or Little Feat, still touring 200 nights a year, 25 years after Lowell George died. Sometimes, as the apocryphal quote goes, "Dis band should disband."

2005-10-12 15:39:52
148.   Uncle Miltie
141- Green Day had talent. A punk band that mixes in folk music? That's almost unheard of. Blink 182 was a good band. Cheshire Cat was a very good CD. Unfortunately, MTV got to them. Then you have great punk bands like NOFX and the Dead Kennedys who would never sellout. The DK's with "MTV Get Off The Air" and NOFX with the brilliant "Please Play This Song on the Radio" were songs that were anti-mainstream media
2005-10-12 15:40:01
149.   Steelyeri

I felt the same way when Rage broke up. I don't like Audioslave. They sound too much like Sound Garden.

2005-10-12 15:43:08
150.   trainwreck
Faith No More breaking up was the worst for me. Atleast Mike Patton (former FNM lead singer) has a handful of new bands he performs with. Alice in Chains was also one of the worst. Soundgarden and Rage Against the Machine are others that come to mind that really made me sad.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2005-10-12 15:43:43
151.   blue22
149 - That's funny. Audioslave to me sounds like Rage with Chris Cornell as the vocalist.

They're less political, and do more slow down stuff, but Tom Morrello is Tom Morrello.

148 - I admire what Green Day tried to do with this recent album, but only some of the songs work. I like just about all of their stuff from before it though.

2005-10-12 15:45:14
152.   trainwreck
Awww Steel you just made me barf with that Audioslave sounds like Soundgarden stuff. Maybe if Soundgarden were neutered.
2005-10-12 15:45:50
153.   natepurcell
hey trainwreck, what do you think of the dillenger escape plan EP with mike patton?
2005-10-12 15:50:25
154.   Uncle Miltie
151- I'm not talking about Green Day now- the horrible emo band. I haven't listened to a Green Day CD since they sold out, starting with Warning.
2005-10-12 15:50:34
155.   jasonungar05
Van Halen or Van Hagar. That was my dilemma.

Van Halen wins.

2005-10-12 15:56:22
156.   Steelyeri
151- I like Tom Morello(Thanks to him, I have an excuse not to eat taco bell :), I liked the politics, Don't like the slow down stuff. Zack is the best.

I guess It's somewhat of a medium, but it's too close to sound garden for my liking. Even though I kinda liked sound garden.
2005-10-12 15:56:58
157.   fanerman
Off topic, but talking baseball, I just read Plaschke's post-Tracy firing/leaving/whatever it was piece, and wow that's bad, even for him.
2005-10-12 15:59:45
158.   trainwreck
Love Dillinger Escape Plan EP with Patton. The "Come To Daddy" cover is awesome.
2005-10-12 16:02:46
159.   King of the Hobos
When does Xeifrank get back? This isn't movies or anything, but still...

I don't like not understanding a conversation :(

2005-10-12 16:03:56
160.   fanerman
Where did Xeifrank go?
2005-10-12 16:04:46
161.   Adam M
157 - : 112 -
2005-10-12 16:04:57
162.   Langhorne
Kids, don't get me started. Punk died a glorious death in the mid-eighties. It can only be played by disenfranchised youth who've never had a music lesson. It certainly can not be based in Irvine. Punk was angry, today's bands are miffed or sulky. I want to beat them to death with Roz William's corpse. Green hair and mohawks were interesting 25 years ago. They no longer are and the term "Punk Rock" has become a marketing tool to sell product to kids who won't buy something if it's called "Pop".
2005-10-12 16:05:07
163.   natepurcell
yea the dep ep with patton was interesting. patton is just a crazy guy.

do you listen to any other extreme music like dep trainwreck?

2005-10-12 16:07:35
164.   alex 7
fanerman, do you just cut and paste that sentence every few days? =)

I see Mel Stottlemyre is a free agent pitching coach. Though it doesn't make it clear if he even wants to coach anymore.

2005-10-12 16:09:32
165.   fanerman
alex 7,
I don't make that comment all the time do I? Maybe after every major controversial move that happens and that's why I end up saying it. It seems like any random DT poster could randomly copy and paste it. I'm just itching for some baseball...
2005-10-12 16:17:13
166.   underdog
My girlfriend, who knows a little about sports but is self-declared "not a sports fan," after I mentioned to her the Dodgers had fired/parted ways/said goodbye to their manager, said:

"Why does it matter that much? What do baseball baseball managers do anyway?"

Me: [stammering] "Uh, well, they... gosh.. and then there's..."

Finally: "They try not to up!"

2005-10-12 16:18:15
167.   underdog
er, that should be:

"They try not to [expletive for "mess"] up!"

2005-10-12 16:20:19
168.   alex 7
We might as well have an "even for Plashke, the current article is horrible" copy and paste icon somewhere on this website.

But I hear you fanerman, it's going to be a long wait until March. I don't even have the NFL to look foward to with how poorly my Raiders are playing.

I'd recommend zeroing in on one baseball aspect (pitching coach teaching methods has been mine) and gobbling up the many informative baseball articles from websites like diamond-mind, baseball prospectus, etc. until pitchers and catchers report.

Or someone should form a DT year-round fantasy baseball keepers league.

Now back to your regularly scheduled music discussion.

2005-10-12 16:21:03
169.   trainwreck
Fantomas is the most extreme band I listed to. That is another Mike Patton band. Mr. Bungle is really weird and I like them a lot. Patton has other weird things I like. Lamb of God is good too, although I am not terribly fond of their singing. Locust is sweet and Hella is really interesting to.
2005-10-12 16:21:25
170.   King of the Hobos
Professional bunter Steve Finley has the night off tonight. Quinlin will take his place (Figgins to CF)
2005-10-12 16:23:52
171.   alex 7
underdog, would you say it's more difficult to manage a MLB team or a little league team?

And remember, there are thousands of crazy parents but only one Steinbrenner.

2005-10-12 16:24:29
172.   fawnkyj
You are right punk has been dead for a long while. Just everything out there that is so called is a copy of a bad copy of punk, in nice packaging.

I loved Zach and Morello's chemistry(uh oh there goes that word again). The contrast between Zach's voice and Morellos heavy guitar was awesome.

Audioslave has some good songs but it sounds off to me.

2005-10-12 16:24:31
173.   Jon Weisman
New playoff chat thread up top.
2005-10-12 16:25:34
174.   fanerman
170 - Time to get Figgy with it in center field.
2005-10-12 16:36:27
175.   Curtis Lowe
With the slim pickings of modern music Audioslave is a gem, I've been into pschobilly for the last 8 yrs and that whole scene is pretty much still virgin to mainstream decay.
2005-10-12 16:45:41
176.   Steelyeri
162- I agree that Zach and Morello were great together. It's really a shame they broke up.

I don't thing it was about chemistry though. I think it was more about Patience and power ;)

2005-10-12 16:46:25
177.   Steelyeri
176 is in reference to 172 not 162.
2005-10-12 16:50:29
178.   trainwreck
What is going on De La Rocha's solo album? I have been waiting for that album for years.
2005-10-12 16:51:26
179.   Steelyeri
So have I. Haven't heard a thing about it lately though.
2005-10-12 17:18:49
180.   fawnkyj
I had heard he made some songs but then nothing came out. He was just in L.A. last weeknd with some band called SOn de Madera at los angeles Natural history museum. I think it was last friday nite.

Honestly i just want them to get together so i can see them live. I never had the moeny when they were together.

2005-10-12 18:18:00
181.   underdog
171. I've never managed either, and would probably find them both difficult ;-) but some members of the Yankees coaching staff might equate One Steinbrenner to thousands of crazy parents.

Anyway, my current vote is Lovullo, or choice #6) Manager Candidate Not Yet Named.

2005-10-12 18:33:39
182.   Uncle Miltie
Punk is not (completely) dead. Listen to "The Separation of Church and Skate" by NOFX. It talks about the current state of punk.
2005-10-12 21:06:08
183.   Vishal
man, i leave for a day and you guys are talking about dillinger escape plan!!

i think they're pretty awesome, but i prefer converge, myself.

however, i HATE HATE HATE the locust. mostly because i think the ratio of their hipster cachet to their musical value is wayyyy out of control.

2005-10-12 21:43:46
184.   FirstMohican
dep w/ patton sounds like patton...
2005-10-14 11:06:12
185.   ElysianPark62
#112: Brilliant! Thanks for taking one for the team in reading Plaschke's tripe. The Angels are the most important team in Los Angeles...uh huh. Based on what evidence, the number of bandwagoners wearing red and waving monkeys, increasing in number with the approach of autumn? That's certainly solid.

Plaschke conveniently ignores his idol Scioscia's own comments shortly after the 2002 miracle season for the Angels. Scioscia cautioned then that the Angels had a very long way to go before coming close to establishing the type of tradition and success the Dodgers have enjoyed. He uses reason and realism; perhaps Plaschke should try that some time.

I am certain that's not what bandwagoners and bitter longtime Angel fans wanted to hear from Scioscia, but it was true then and it remains so.

Even with this disaster of a season, the Dodgers still outdrew the Angels. Yes, that included no-shows but the crowds really didn't thin out much until September.

Until the Angels put up more WS titles and manage to outdraw the Dodgers for the first time ever (and a few more times after that), they will never claim similar importance or meaning to this area that the Dodgers do.

The supreme irony is that Orange County fans are indignant about being associated with bad old Los Angeles when Moreno is the one desperately trying to leech off the image, history, tradition, and significance associated with Los Angeles and the Dodgers in order to make money. He can't market "Anaheim" or "Orange County" easily. Oh, wait, only McCourt is a money grubber, not Moreno. Moreno lowered BEER PRICES! He isn't into making money. Silly me.

Sorry for the long post but this issue particuarly fires me up (obviously).

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