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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
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Game 1
2005-10-22 14:49
by Jon Weisman

2005 World Series Game 1

Without looking them up, name the last five Dodger World Series Game 1 starting pitchers.

Comments (220)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2005-10-22 14:57:16
1.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
1988 - Belcher
2005-10-22 14:58:23
2.   scanderbeg
i was just going to say that it was belcher in '88. was it fernando in '81?
2005-10-22 15:17:34
3.   scanderbeg
it wasn't fernando...i looked it up. Jerry Reuss
2005-10-22 15:22:17
4.   Jon Weisman
3 - Without looking them up, name the last five Dodger World Series Game 1 starting pitchers.
2005-10-22 15:30:59
5.   D4P
Name the next Dodger World Series Game 1 starting pitcher.
2005-10-22 15:37:57
6.   Linkmeister
5 At this rate, some kid we just drafted out of high school.
2005-10-22 15:40:57
7.   scanderbeg
I know, sorry. I'm a jackass that can't follow the rules.
2005-10-22 15:41:13
8.   dzzrtRatt
Without looking it up = guessing.

88 -- Belcher
81 -- Reuss
78 -- Hooton
77 -- John
74 -- Messersmith

I know 88 is correct, but otherwise--zero confidence.

2005-10-22 15:55:04
9.   King of the Hobos
Orel says the Dodgers "aren't a turnaround project. They have a great minor league system and talent on the big league roster"

Well, that's a step ahead of Tracy. Orel also seems to respect DePo quite a bit, although it could be a show I suppose. Nonetheless, DePo has said Orel will not be the Dodgers pitching coach, or work in the front office, according to the following article. The 6 candidates are it, no more on the way. Other than Orel's interview, McCourt still wants to meet with various candidates, which was already known (this isn't "Abe Yeager")

2005-10-22 15:58:08
10.   Jon Weisman
8 - 4 names correct, 3 in the right spot
2005-10-22 16:08:45
11.   King of the Hobos
Taxi squad or not, Loney is hitting quite well. I hope he's starting to show why scouts have liked him...

Loney 4-4, SF
Laroche 1-4, CS, K

2005-10-22 16:13:18
12.   D4P
Is that a reference to the Mastermind board game?
2005-10-22 16:14:34
13.   MikeB
9. It's obvious to all who care about the Dodgers that the information we (fans) are getting regarding the Dodger search for a new manager is being heavily filtered through a mostly hostile press. (for proof, do a Google News search on "depodesta" or "moneyball" and see what shows up).
And, it is worth noting that a lot of comments about who is the favorite, and how the interview process has been handled is attributed to "inside sources" -- or some other euphemism for the MSM not knowing but taking wild-ass guesses.
But, my gut feeling is Orel will get the job. Why bother interviewing him if Collins, Wotus or Lovullo were so great? Whether by design or an instance of pure serendipity, I think the scheduling of Orel means he is the guy. If not, the local media will certainly roast McCourt & Depo over hot, fiery coals for the duration of their association with the team.
You don't interview a Dodger legend, and then tell him - "sorry, you're not the guy we're looking for."
I don't have any evidence to back this up but - Orel seems intelligent enough to understand that if he takes the job (if offered) that he has to work within the roster concepts of his boss. And, I think it is a plus that Orel has not managed before. There is a chance he will be less inclined to insist on old-style tactics or prejudices when making out a lineup or handling in-game decisions. I'd also be willing to bet money that Orel has actually read Moneyball - and understood it - and may even agree with some of the ideas presented there.
2005-10-22 16:28:24
14.   dzzrtRatt
Well we know one thing. If they hire Orel, it won't be for PR. The Dodgers' new PR person doesn't know who he is.
2005-10-22 16:29:33
15.   dzzrtRatt
10 When I finally did look it up, one of my errors was a surprise to me. A major mis-remembered fact.
2005-10-22 16:31:07
16.   trainwreck
I love that statement, means he has been following the team still. Just give the guy the job and make everyone happy.
2005-10-22 16:35:48
17.   Adam M
13 - I'm on board with Orel, too. At this point, it's hard to name an advantage any of the other candidates has over him, and whatever disadvantages he has seem minor compared to the other candidates. True, pitching coaches haven't had great success managing before, but if you read the recent ESPN profile of Mazzone, most pitching coaches are "guru" types who insist on making players conform to their way, and perhaps lack the humility and mental flexibility to be good managers. Hershiser doesn't seem like that type. Some also lack big-legue experience or tactical savvy, or perhaps know little about hitting. Plus, he could have a fine bench coach helping him strategize, and for a pitcher, he wasn't a bad hitter.

And the whole interview with Oakland seems very strange. Perhaps Beane was running interference for DePo, or perhaps DePo had an interest in Hershiser but some reservations which Beane put to rest after putting in a good word. Or perhaps DePo just reached this decision of his own accord. There seems to be an idea that Moneyball disciples don't brush their teeth without conferring with Dear Leader first. To put it mildly, this seems somewhat absurd.

Has anybody in the major media evinced any sympathy by Beane getting effectively RF'd by Charles Johnson? If something like that hapened to Tommy, there'd be baying for blood, no? DePo gets blamed for the ongoing hole at catcher, but how many GMs prepare for that type of contingency?

2005-10-22 16:42:35
18.   MikeB
17. There are any number of reasons that Orel was not part of the original 5 candidates. But, the most plausible to me is that the Rangers were transitioning GM's and Depo couldn't get a clear OK to interview Orel. The press are reporting the new Rangers GM, Daniels, is pissed off at Hersheiser for not committing to the Rangers already.
Also, there are many ways or routes Depo could have taken to find out if Orel was interested, what his management philosophy might be, etc. through intermediaries - Lasorda, Beane, agents, etc. I don't think Depo would have inserted Orel into the mix this late in the process unless he knew for certain that he and Orel could get on the same page (page 26 if my memory is correct).
2005-10-22 16:51:56
19.   Sam DC
oooh, mastermind. "Now that's a game I haven't heard in a long time."
2005-10-22 17:01:37
20.   King of the Hobos
Orel's biggest disadvantage is he has no managing experience. If he were hired, I'd assume the Dodgers recommend that Orel choose a bench coach with managing experience, similar to the Marlins, Girardi, and Zimmer.

Because I was either not living or very young when Orel played, were there any players that he was good buddies with that could end up on the coaching staff?

2005-10-22 17:03:46
21.   fanerman
11 - That's fantastic news. Were those hits all singles? I hope James Loney has a breakout season in 2006 in Vegas. Now, where are the walks?
2005-10-22 17:07:38
22.   dzzrtRatt
20 Many of them are working for the Angels: Scioscia, Alfredo Griffin, Mickey Hatcher. John Shelby was a member of that team, and I don't think Tracy asked him to go to Pittsburgh. And of course there's Kirk Gibson, who has been a bench coach already.

Maybe he could try to bring back some of the coaches from back then: Ron Perranoski, Joey Amalfitano. If Leyland isn't too old, they certainly aren't. Those two soured on the Dodgers, but I think it was Fox, not McCourt who screwed them over.

2005-10-22 17:10:34
23.   MikeB
20. An experienced bench coach who can assist Orel would be helpful. But, he would need to be someone who lands on the proverbial "same page." A possibility for bench coach might be one of the 5 candidates - I think Lovullo or Royster could be candidates.
2005-10-22 17:15:44
24.   King of the Hobos
21 Yes, they were all singles. Two were of the infield variety. He did have 2 homers and a double before this, and has 8 hits in 17 ABs. No walks, but only one K. He is only playing on Wednesdays and Saturdays, and doesn't started everytime, so any success without regular play is nice
2005-10-22 17:18:31
25.   dzzrtRatt
Scratch Amalfitano. He's still bitter. And he has a huge crush on Jim Tracy.
2005-10-22 17:31:35
26.   trainwreck
Hire Larry Dierker as his bench coach. He was a name a lot of people mentioned for manager.
2005-10-22 17:34:33
27.   fanerman
24 - Yeah I heard that he was only playing 2 games a week. Why is that exactly?
2005-10-22 17:36:04
28.   Shmueli4
I love the idea of Orel being the next manager, perhaps f0r a long run to bring this organization back to the stable days or yore. I see him as a cross between a LaRosa and Lasorda. He seems to me the intellectual type willing to experiment and not necessisarily tied down to old fashion norms. Although he certainly does not seem to have the fiery spirit of Lasorda, he is the "bull dog." In that way, I see him possessing a quiet confidence that young people, especially, are drawn toward, the kind of Ozzie Guillen put-up or shut-up spirit. I love the hire and hope that Depo does right by Dodger fans.

I want to add something: As much as I love what Gibson did for us in 1988, I think, without a doubt Orel is our Man. As much as Gibson will be remembered for the "improbable" and the "impossible," and was the heart and soul of that team - Orel was the steadying mainstay. He possessed what is most needed for a manager, a level-headed baseball mind that can turn on the passion when necessary and settle the spirits other at other times.

2005-10-22 17:40:03
29.   King of the Hobos
27 Injury purposes. You have a player in Arizona ready to take over for an injury. A lot of players go on vacation or are relaxing and aren't prepared to play immediately
2005-10-22 17:48:22
30.   dzzrtRatt
Wasn't LaRosa the singer Arthur Godfrey fired for lacking humility?
2005-10-22 17:50:17
31.   Mark
5 He's somewhere in his house in the Dominican Republic, watching Sesame Street.

(What do they call Sesame Street in the Dominican?)

2005-10-22 18:04:48
32.   Marty
Well, we seem to have us a game here.
2005-10-22 18:05:08
33.   King of the Hobos
How many people predicted this many runs this soon into the game?
2005-10-22 18:07:17
34.   LAT
So much for this being a pitching show-down
2005-10-22 18:18:05
35.   trainwreck
Anyone else annoyed by all the media calling the White Sox small ball? They hit a ton of homeruns they are not just some small ball team.
2005-10-22 18:19:56
36.   Marty
I'm not so sure Ozzie letting his starters go all the way four straight games was so wise. Tough position to be in, whether to pull your starter when he's sailing along, but he may wish he had fresher starters and a less-rusty bullpen.
2005-10-22 18:21:03
37.   gcrl
88 -- Belcher
81 -- Reuss
78 -- John
77 -- Sutton
74 -- Messersmith
2005-10-22 18:22:03
38.   bokonon42
The radio team said Clemens was favoring his left hamstring, on his way to the clubhouse. Did he look gimpy on the mound?
2005-10-22 18:25:38
39.   Rob M
2005-10-22 18:28:42
40.   popup
#34, LAT, the beauty of baseball is that you never really know what you will get when you sit down to watch.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-22 18:46:05
41.   Linkmeister
I know there's college football on, but why couldn't this game have been played during daylight hours when it was a little warmer?

I hate what television has done to postseason.

2005-10-22 18:59:28
42.   dzzrtRatt
Weeknight baseball makes sense, despite the weather. Weekend baseball should be during the day. Especially a series like this, which is going to lose to reruns of "Lost" and "Law and Order" regardless.
2005-10-22 19:01:56
43.   Clive Clements
35 Last night on Baseball Tonight, John Kruk said something like "The White Sox were at the top of the league lead in homeruns, but they don't mind scoring runs in other ways, like bunting a man over, sacrificing..." Hehehe. Let's not let pesky facts get in the way of our beliefs about the White Sox and their use of small ball.
2005-10-22 19:06:56
44.   regfairfield
Why do people who made carrers by walking and hitting home runs suddenly fall in love with small ball once they become commentators?
2005-10-22 19:15:09
45.   Linkmeister
42 Well, that's what I meant. Weekends at least should be daytime baseball.
2005-10-22 19:24:52
46.   Marty
Crede is starting to remind me of Nettles, which really annoys me.
2005-10-22 19:42:07
47.   Marty
The Web MD thing annoys me too.
2005-10-22 19:51:52
48.   bokonon42
You mean the Web MD INJURY report, in which no injuries were reported?
2005-10-22 19:53:07
49.   Bob Timmermann
If they had played during the day, then I could have seen the first seven innings!

The last day game in the World Series was Game 6 of the 1987 World Series.

And that was played indoors in Minneapolis.

2005-10-22 19:56:42
50.   bill cox
I'd like to see Loney get a shot in the spring to play first base.Choi could be traded as you don't need two left-handed hitting first basemen.You're going to love this kid when you see him play.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2005-10-22 19:58:16
51.   D4P
Wow, Jenks throws hard.
2005-10-22 19:58:48
52.   Uncle Miltie
I can't be the only one here who thinks of Broxton when they see Jenks pitch.
2005-10-22 20:00:11
53.   dzzrtRatt
Every time Jenks throws a strike, Bill Stoneman should be forced to drink a shot of Jagermiester.
2005-10-22 20:07:07
54.   regfairfield
So, what's the over-under on the number of analyists saying Morgan Ensberg should have squeezed?
2005-10-22 20:08:59
55.   Bob Timmermann
The number of sane analysts saying that should be zero. Who squeezes home the tying run in the 8th with your cleanup hitter?
2005-10-22 20:09:45
56.   regfairfield
Everytime A.J. Pierzynski steals, God kills a kitten.
2005-10-22 20:10:40
57.   regfairfield
55 How many sane anaylists are there? That is the question. Someone, somewhere will bring it up.
2005-10-22 20:16:07
58.   alex 7
larussa and tracy would do it.
2005-10-22 20:16:18
59.   Steve
Tim Brown has some interesting things to say. If McCourt fires DePodesta and hires Jim Bowden, they may as well turn Dodger Stadium into a parking lot.

Count me as wary, but possibly accepting, of this Orel Hershiser thing. They might as well have announced they were hiring him when they announced they were going to interview him, but if he is like Tracy was since, oh, Opening Day of 2001, it will be much, much harder to jettison him.

On the other hand, things that are worth doing entail risks, and celebrity matters. In fact, a lot of this reminds me of what the GOP went through (and is now going through) with Schwarzenegger, a parallel I will not pursue further for risk of getting off topic.

Russ Springer is horrible. What is he doing anywhere near this game?

2005-10-22 20:22:06
60.   Bob Timmermann
Jim Bowden? And I was so happy after coming back from the UCLA football game?

Now, I'm going to have whip up some homemade Prozac.

2005-10-22 20:25:26
61.   bokonon42
60- Needs more ice cream.
2005-10-22 20:25:29
62.   dzzrtRatt
Tim Brown's Sunday column hasn't uploaded on the Times site yet, so to end the suspense--whose idea is Jim Bowden for Dodger GM? Frank McCourt? Tommy Lasorda? Or some jerk who has no decision-making power?
2005-10-22 20:26:04
63.   Steve
Brown is a little more coy then that, saying that Zippy McCourt may fire DePodesta to get a veteran that comes available. Cashman is mentioned as well.

So is Kevin Towers. Mike Lowell was unavailable for comment.

2005-10-22 20:26:56
64.   Steve
Look under More News on the front site. "Could Dodgers Be Considering a Change At GM"
2005-10-22 20:29:26
65.   bokonon42
Quick, turn on FSN! Paul LoDuca got a commercial gig for Courtesy Chevrolet.
2005-10-22 20:29:42
66.   Steve
Apparently, we know Bobby Jenks is for real because he struck out Jeff Bagwell.

Circa 1998?

2005-10-22 20:31:26
67.   Bob Timmermann
I was thinking of looking for a car at Go && Yourself Chevrolet, but I really didn't like the service.
2005-10-22 20:35:15
68.   dzzrtRatt
Found it. Well, I guess anything's possible. The surfacing of this rumor, surrounded as it is by Brown editorializing on the misguided notions of the McCourts, might be designed to shoot it down.

I knew when they fired Olguin that a rash of insanely bad stories would follow. Olguin has relationships with all the beat reporters, all the columnists, and writers in every NL city, at least. This new person knows absolutely no one, and is trained to react to problems with "message of the day" discipline and robust spin, tactics that are untenable in the world of sports media.

2005-10-22 20:39:32
69.   rageon
Yet another trash article from the Times.

Am I the only one who didn't quite get the whole brand/product paragraph?

2005-10-22 20:41:57
70.   bokonon42
I understand why people are excited about Hershiser, but I'd be more comfortable with some cipher, mercenary. Somebody without an ego or any principles. And maybe a little bit lazy, as in, "Oh, that's alright, I really don't need to learn the hit-and-run signal." Or, "I was thinking of starting Phillips at first, but he's not on my list of approved first basemen, so I guess I can't; no need to think of ways to subvert that."
2005-10-22 20:50:09
71.   Steve
What if he actually worked out? What if he didn't go crazy? The power would be awesome to behold.
2005-10-22 20:51:09
72.   dzzrtRatt
69 It's PR buzzspeak. Learn it, and you can charge $300/hour.

Branding is defined as the identity a company develops. When you go into a McDonalds' you know what to expect. Even if it's a new menu item, you know pretty much what it'll be like. When you go into a Nordstrom's you'll have an experience that says, "I'm in Nordstroms." Advertising protects and promotes the brand, but it's the direct interface with the customer that establishes it. Think of a person that you know, and what characteristics you associate with them. What companies or lines of products do you "know" in this same way? That's the "brand."

In terms of the industry the McCourts come from, certain developers have strong brand identities--Donald Trump being the most obvious example. Whatever he builds, you know it'll be luxurious and glitzy, whether it's a casino, a condo or a golf club.

I have no clue what brand identity the McCourt had in Boston, but obviously it has no visibility here. The Dodgers are the brand: the Stadium, some of the personalities like Scully, the history, the so-called "Dodger Way." Fox diluted it, practically ruined it, but it's very persistent, and could be revived easily. The McCourts sometimes seem like they understand that, and sometimes seem like they don't.

Arte Moreno has established, seemingly out of thin air, an Angels brand. For decades, the Angels stood for nothing in particular, but now I feel like what they're all about is very distinct. But the Dodgers brand is far more well-known, and it will be hard to ruin. Hard but not impossible.

2005-10-22 20:52:51
73.   Xeifrank
1 for 1 on my W.S. predictions so far.

Chicago, Chicago, Houston, Chicago, Houston, Chicago... Chicago wins 4-2.
vr, Xei

2005-10-22 20:53:59
74.   Steve
Somebody needs to tell Tim Brown, as well, that when Houston didn't resign Kent and Beltran, they were 1) crucified by the idiots who worship at the altar of Omar Minaya; 2) those were the same idiots who insist they know what DePodesta should do now and; 3) (just to show you can't satisfy anyone) the same people who couldn't believe the Dodgers didn't resign You-Know-Who at Second Base.
2005-10-22 20:59:39
75.   dzzrtRatt
To continue the thought: Imagine if Donald Trump buys the Yankees. Would he make the Yankees over into his image? Maybe at the margins, but really, he couldn't--the brand is too strong. His best move would be to update it, strengthen it, carry its best attributes into his other products, but not change it substantially.

McCourt has 1/1000th the recognition of Trump, but the Dodgers have a brand identity that is almost as strong as the Yankees'. His best move is to be a very good steward of that brand, enhance it, revive it, and gain some reflected glory from it. The Dodgers can help McCourt brand himself for future real estate developments.

If, as Brown's article suggests, he sees things the other way around, he is f&&&ing nuts. We, the fans, carry the Dodger brand in our hearts. He has two choices: Honor that brand, or be hated and driven out of town! It's so outlandishly stupid, I figure the comment is sour grapes from the people he's fired. But I suppose we'll see.

The bottom line is, unlike the subjective worlds of politics and business, there is a constant bottom line to baseball, the W-L record. No matter what else McCourt dreams of the Dodgers doing for him, he's screwed if he can't get them to start winning.

Sorry to go on and on.

2005-10-22 21:00:30
76.   Bob Timmermann

Speaking of branding ....

The store you were referring to is not "Nordstrom's". It is "Nordstrom". There is never an apostrophe.

They pay people $300/hr to tell people not to use an apostrophe.

2005-10-22 21:00:45
77.   Louis in SF
Just read the Tim Brown story and to echo the above comment, anything is possible, there are two things that don' make sense to me. 1) If McCourt was going to fire DePodesta this year, once Tracy was let go, wouldn't he have then let DePodesta go. Clean house and start fresh? 2.) The "American League source makes no sense. Why would McCourt be dropping hints to AL sources. If Tracy knew something it should have come from a national league source.

Much as been said about pitching coaches make bad managers. However, Roger Craig, Bob Lemmon were pretty good managers. Bringing Orel back could be exciting, but real on the field talent will mean more.

2005-10-22 21:02:23
78.   Steve
77 -- Agreed. If Brown has closer sources that confirm the possibility, he should say he has them. If not, then he should not present idle speculation as fact.

But then that is what the LA Times does.

2005-10-22 21:06:06
79.   Bob Timmermann
With the NY Post running an item about Brian Cashman executive and an "AL East Executive" being named in Brown's column, I wonder if Cashman is the guy dropping the hints.
2005-10-22 21:07:27
80.   dzzrtRatt
76 True enough. Another failed PR campaign is the one that insists you must call it "Staples Center," no "The..."

Sometimes these things get silly, but for some reason corporate America likes to spend money on it.

2005-10-22 21:08:45
81.   jtshoe
11 - Loney 4-4, SF
That could have easily been 2 for 4 with a reach on 2 errors if the scorekeeper hadn't been feeling generous. Still, he looked great at the plate, while LaRoche's ABs were a little weak.
2005-10-22 21:08:49
82.   Steve
I wondered if it was Ricciardi.
2005-10-22 21:13:31
83.   Xeifrank
Maybe Cashman is dropping hints as payback for the Randy Johnson trade fiasco. I remember the Yanks being pissed at Depo after renegging on the three way. vr, Xei
2005-10-22 21:14:05
84.   Bob Timmermann
I remember when I worked for the County Public Library and we hired a marketing consultant to change the name to "County of Los Angeles Public Library" instead of "Los Angeles County Public Library" because they wanted to emphasize "county". And the library cards went from being black with colored letters to green with gold letters. Those were heady days.

UCLA trotted out a new logo last year.

The UCLA "identity" page describes it this way:
The UCLA logo consists of the four letters "UCLA" rendered in letterforms inspired by the Bauhaus design movement. (The Bauhaus Manifesto was issued in 1919 – the year UCLA was founded.) There is a slight but definite forward slant to the mark. No font can duplicate the logo, because each letter has been individually altered to make a harmonious whole.

2005-10-22 21:14:36
85.   Steve
83 -- I like that explanation. I'll go with that.
2005-10-22 21:14:57
86.   MikeB
The worm has turned. Steroid power has been supplanted by the honest sweat of the gritty smallballers. I don't think so.
As noted by others previously, the WS did hit 200 HRs this season -- but continue to be fawned over by the media for their bunt and run tendencies. This past season is possibly an outlier - the occasional spike or dip (depending on your point of view) in the trend line. Baseball management may say they love bunts & stolen bases, and chemistry - but when the time comes to lay the money on the table, they don't give the big piles of it to the scrappers, they give it to the boppers.
2005-10-22 21:21:07
87.   Bob Timmermann
Alex Rodriguezes fly in private jets to exclusive retreats.
Scott Podsedniks buy super saver fares on Southwest.
2005-10-22 21:24:09
88.   dzzrtRatt
If you have digital cable (or satellite), one of the multiple Encore! channels, the one known as Encore Drama, is playing "Eight Men Out" right now.
2005-10-22 21:25:59
89.   dzzrtRatt
83 Cashman would love DePodesta's job. He wants out of New York. The media has called the Phillies' opening "tempting" for Cashman, but that seems like a suicide mission to me. The Dodgers are all upside if they're handle right.

That would gives Cashman another motive to dish the dirt.

2005-10-22 21:28:04
90.   rageon
75 Sorry to force you to explain branding, that really wasn't the point of my comment. It was more that the statement in the article just didn't make any sense at all. I highly doubt there's any truth to his assertion about the McCourts, because well, the McCourts aren't THAT dumb. I think that they (he?) certainly recognizes the value in teh Dodger name, while at the same time understanding how much it has fallen since the days of O'Malley.
2005-10-22 21:30:49
91.   Bob Timmermann
People come to the library a lot to ask for books about branding. It's one of the hot business topics. It's not just marketing now. It's branding. I think it's a standing assignment for business major undergrads and even for MBAs.

Come visit me at work and I can show you the land of discarded management theories.

2005-10-22 21:33:12
92.   rageon
86 I think baseball dropped the ball bigtime when they seemingly as a whole decided that homeruns, and only homeruns, sell tickets. The result has been a ton of small parks where smallball would be foolish to play. I think most of us here realize that the walks & power player is a better bet than speedy & no power. But those speedy players sure are a lot more interesting to watch, aren't they? I've been an A's fan since about 1998, but I've got to admit I didn't have much interest in watching them play any games back when they resembled a slow-pitch softball team.
2005-10-22 21:37:14
93.   bokonon42
It's almost always a bad idea to hire somebody you can't fire. Even if Orel turns out to be a super terrific manager (the evidence that he would be seems to be mostly faith-based, at this point) that means he'll be a salary problem at some point. Up thread, or maybe it was in the last one, a couple of people were theorizing on the premise that Gagne wouldn't be resigned because of his price tag.

If McCourt is as cheap and clever as he might be, he'll let DePo take the hit for letting Gagne and Hershiser go, then fire him for doing it. McCourt hasn't done anything to prove himself cheap (or all that clever) so I might just be paranoid. But it still seems overly risky for not much gain. Are people really going to be more likely to buy tickets because Orel's managing? How many wins above replacement is a super terrific manager worth, each year?

It's also possible that this is just an identity politics thing, for me. The Dodgers need themselves an amoral, fat-guy manager.

2005-10-22 21:38:06
94.   Bob Timmermann

When do you think this shift took place? Babe Ruth started playing in New York in 1920, so it's not like trying to build your team around power is a new thing.

2005-10-22 21:41:51
95.   Bob Timmermann
The Dodgers need themselves an amoral, fat-guy manager.

He's retired.

2005-10-22 21:53:39
96.   bokonon42
95- Tommy wasn't lazy enough. Sure he was fat, but it was an overeating thing, not a lay about, sloth thing. Sloth is the most underrated of the seven deadly sins.
2005-10-22 21:55:02
97.   trainwreck
There is only one guy I believe that McCourt would be willing to fire DePo if he could get him and that is Theo Epstein. We all know McCourt was a big Red Sox fan and likes everything to do with them and I think one of the reasons he went with DePo was because he was like a Theo Epstein.
2005-10-22 21:55:49
98.   rageon
94 Late 90s, with the construction of the mini-ballparks. Yes, power has always been a smart thing to build your team around. My point is that baseball should have made an attempt to make the game so that power is not so much more valuable than other skills, rather than the other way around.
2005-10-22 22:03:01
99.   dzzrtRatt
90 No worries. The very sight of the word "branding" sends me into spasms. That one managed to hit my computer keys. Branding is one of the words that PR and marketing people insert liberally to sound like someone you should pay a lot of money to; but the advice comes down to "be yourself." I can imagine an aspirational person like Jamie McCourt gets bewitched when words like branding are slung around in her presence.
2005-10-22 22:11:24
100.   bokonon42
97- What worries me about McCourt is that I don't know why he picked DePo. It's possible he's a Bill James addict, hardcore SABR ideologue, or that he used the Red Sox model, or that he's cheap and picked DePo because DePo promised big things on a little budget.

If it's the first, good on him. If it's the second, I really wouldn't cry too hard about Epstein setting up shop in L.A. If it's the third thing, then DePo goes whenever McCourt thinks he can get a better deal. And there's no reason to believe that McCourt defines "better deal" to mean: more capable GM. It could just as easily mean bettr PR. McCourt stuck out this crummy season without doing anything to make the third possibility seem more likely. But I don't trust him yet. I think FOX may have given me Abused Fan Syndrome; I didn't use to have trust issues.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2005-10-22 22:16:22
101.   Bob Timmermann

We'll send you on a corporate retreat with the McCourts and you can try the exercise where you fall backwards and you hope that Frank McCourt will be there to catch you.

2005-10-22 22:18:57
102.   rageon
101 There used to be a designated guy whose job it was to catch those people, but McCourt fired him.
2005-10-22 22:24:12
103.   trainwreck
I would not be upset with Epstein as GM at all, but I would feel bad for DePo as I have always been a fan of his from the start. ( I am also an A's fan so I have loyalty to him) I would be worried though that McCourt can make rash decisions and has a short leash. I am already a Raider fan so I do not need a second Al Davis.
2005-10-22 22:26:20
104.   Bob Timmermann
But what nickname would Simers give Epstein? He's used up all the young computer-themed ones.
2005-10-22 22:26:41
105.   bokonon42
Why is it that every team UCLA beats turns in to a pumpkin after the game? Oklahoma went to pot; Cal is threatening to lose three straight. . . Is is possible that UCLA really isn't good, they've just been playing overrated opponents?
2005-10-22 22:27:43
106.   LAT
Not that I wish you any injury, Bob but Frank trying to catch you would be a funny sight. He comes up to your hip. If you fell on him he would be like a flattened cartoon character.
2005-10-22 22:29:40
107.   Bob Timmermann
UCLA will go on and lose at Stanford next week just to spite me.

Oklahoma hasn't gone completely to pot. They beat Baylor in double overtime tonight!

Joe Ayoob is the Jason Grabowski of college quarterbacks.

2005-10-22 22:31:14
108.   bokonon42
McCourt is like Ahmad Chalabi, all the right people hate him, so I'm inclined to like him. But also to worry about it.
2005-10-22 22:32:01
109.   LAT
Is is possible that UCLA really isn't good, they've just been playing overrated opponents?

As a Bruin fan, i am afraid that question will be definitvly answered on Dec. 3. In the meantime, Jon has this weekend to look forward to.

2005-10-22 22:34:27
110.   Bob Timmermann
The Cardinal have won three straight games and it's 45-35 win over ASU wasn't nearly as close as the score would indicate. Stanford was up 31-7 at halftime.

The Cardinal are fourth in the Pac-10 now at 3-1. USC and UCLA are 4-0 and Oregon is 4-1.

2005-10-22 22:45:26
111.   LAT
WSU is about to fail to pull off another upset it should have had.
2005-10-22 22:48:58
112.   Bob Timmermann
Wazzu should just not play schools from California. They are heading for 0-3 with a game AT USC next week.
2005-10-22 23:00:25
113.   trainwreck
I am just worried UCLA will be over confident and then they finally wil not be able to make a big comeback in the second half.
2005-10-22 23:02:12
114.   Bob Timmermann
Actually that's a nice worry to have because it means you're team is winning games.
2005-10-22 23:06:16
115.   Bob Timmermann
Too long of a day to use proper spelling too.
2005-10-22 23:07:57
116.   bokonon42
If UCLA manages to win out, is there any reason to believe they'd get one of the two top spots? I guess what I'm asking is: Does anybody understand how the BCS system actually works? The Rose Bowl is the big game, this year, right? Does that mean it won't be played on New Year's Day?

What's the record for most consecutive questions in a post? More than six?

2005-10-22 23:08:24
117.   Jon Weisman
#37 is correct.

Stanford plays four ranked teams in its final five games. The Cardinal needs to win two games to become the first team ever to lose to UC Davis and become the scourge of the nation and still reach a bowl.

2005-10-22 23:17:16
118.   Bob Timmermann
The Rose Bowl game will be played on January 4, 2006.

If UCLA were to go 10-1 with its only loss being to USC, I would almost guarantee a UCLA trip to San Diego for the Holiday Bowl. UCLA's chances of getting an at large spot in the BCS are remote.
For starters, if Notre Dame finishes in the top 12 of the BCS ratings, it would be eligible for an at large bid. And Notre Dame will get one. The bowl games that are not the national championship want to get people to show up and people to watch on TV. Notre Dame guarantees that.

So, that would leave one other spot. It's likely that another SEC team, the team that doesn't win the conference (one from the group of Alabama, Georgia, and Tennessee) would get the other at large spot.

If you told a UCLA football fan that the Bruins were going to go play in the Orange Bowl, the response would be, "Really, that's nice, what time is it on TV?"

Not counting trips to the Coliseum, I've seen UCLA on the road three times. Twice at Berkeley and once at Stanford. And the year I went to Stanford to see them play, I was living in Berkeley.

2005-10-22 23:25:44
119.   trainwreck
The troubles of being UCLA football. You have to be perfect or you are not anything. Pretty much same situation Cal was in last year.
2005-10-22 23:33:43
120.   Bob Timmermann
UCLA was undefeated and playing at home. They had three straight exciting wins. There was no other major sporting event in Southern California going on.

They drew 49,000.

2005-10-22 23:39:48
121.   bokonon42
Catherine Zeta-Jones doesn't know how to pronounce ta-ta's. She does have redeeming qualities, though.
2005-10-22 23:40:15
122.   trainwreck
Since you were at the game Bob you missed TBS showing Charles Barkley on the Tonight Show trying to get the crowd to chant for Auburn, but then Leno got them to chant UCLA. I just thought you fairweather bums. Yeah tonight's crowd was pathetic . There should be no excuse for UCLA students to not go to the games.
2005-10-22 23:47:49
123.   bokonon42
Well, the World Series was on. Also, the team has been pretty bad the last couple of years. Maybe attendence will pick up next year, when they're the defending NCAA Champions.
2005-10-22 23:50:04
124.   trainwreck
I think we got a chance against USC, but then having to face Texas after that is a whole other story. Got to get through Stanford, Arizona, and Arizona St before we can even think about it.
2005-10-23 00:00:10
125.   Bob Timmermann
UCLA hasn't been horrible the last two years, just average. They were 12-13 the last two seasons. Losing bowl games to the likes of Fresno State and Wyoming is not the way to get the Bill Plaschke Seal of Approval. (Plaschke has adopted Bob Toledo as his latest poor mistreated soul.)

UCLA's attendance is always much lower than USC's for football and pretty much always will be. But what do you expect when the football stadium is a long way from campus and the fan base (West L.A.).

It's great for me, but I think a lot of UCLA fans would love to play in whatever new stadium the NFL can extort out of L.A.

2005-10-23 00:03:09
126.   trainwreck
I'm a bay area person so I have no idea where in Pasedena the Rose Bowl is. How long does it take to get there from UCLA?
2005-10-23 00:08:57
127.   rageon
Good news on Greg Miller:

Ah yes, the dreaded shoulder impingement, or as it's called around my place, "the reason I can't throw a softball hard from much further than secondbase without hurting myself."

But in all seriousness, it's good to see that Miller doesn't have anything too serious wrong with him. I'd really like to see him pan out, as his natural ability is off the charts.

2005-10-23 00:09:14
128.   bokonon42
They haven't been an, er, trainwreck, the last two years, but they lost the big game both times (and, what, four additional times in a row?). They went to loser bowls and lost. The last good team was Bob Toledo's ill-fated one.

I read Plaschke's piece but it wasn't till this moment that I was struck by a flash of illiterate inspiration. DePo should hire Bob Toledo! He's a fat guy. Maybe he isn't lazy, but he would, presumably, know too little about baseball to get himself in trouble. DePo wins back Plaschke. Toledo finally comes off the UCLA payroll. Dodger players have assigned parking spots, right? So, no trouble there.

I can't think of anything wrong with this idea.

2005-10-23 00:12:08
129.   Bob Timmermann
The Rose Bowl is on the western edge of Pasadena. It is near the intersection of the 134 and 210 freeways.

From West L.A., it would take about an hour most times. And it doesn't have the greatest access routes as it's in a residential area (an extremely wealthy one too) that has narrow streets.

Interestingly, Walter O'Malley looked into the Rose Bowl as a temporary venue for the Dodgers when he moved West. But the stadium would have had to have been renovated to shoehorn a baseball field into it.

In my opinion, it's a great place to watch a game. Great setting. Lots of history.

Would have been very nice today except for the guys next to me who smuggled in some sort of booze and were then mixing Red Bull with it and they were an annoying pair of individuals.

2005-10-23 00:19:48
130.   Bob Timmermann
Actually UCLA did get the Plaschke Seal of Approval in Sunday's paper.

They're doomed.

2005-10-23 00:27:11
131.   bokonon42
Sample question missing from the L.A. Times's copy editor exam:

What's wrong with this sentence, ". . .their eyes wide and their clenched fists searching for wood"?

2005-10-23 00:28:25
132.   bokonon42
Sorry. Porky's was on the cable, earlier. Might be time for me to log off. Um. No pun intended.
2005-10-23 07:23:08
133.   Marty
I drive through the arroyo and by the Rose Bowl every day for work because the freeway is usually backed up. However, I've only been in the Rose Bowl twice and those were July 4th fireworks shows. There seemed to be a soccer game being played too, but I hate soccer.
2005-10-23 08:31:44
134.   Bob Timmermann
Since the Galaxy have decamped to Carson, there isn't much soccer played at the Rose Bowl now.
2005-10-23 09:36:30
135.   Marty
We are into the Greek alphabet. Tropical storm Alpha is over Hispaniola.
2005-10-23 10:06:47
136.   Bob Timmermann
I've started repenting.
2005-10-23 10:19:21
137.   Vishal
an extremely vague but kind of intriguing article:

2005-10-23 11:30:27
138.   willhite
137 -

Very intriguing. I wonder what da Vinci's contemporaries thought of him when he first started showing them his drawings.

2005-10-23 11:37:01
139.   Kayaker7
From the LA Times regarding Depo's job security: "The theory coursing through baseball circles is McCourt will have final say on the manager, then make a decision on his general manager, perhaps making a change if what he perceives as a more attractive candidate — Brian Cashman, Theo Epstein, Mark Newman, Jim Bowden, Kevin Towers — is still available."


2005-10-23 11:51:49
140.   willhite
Possible GM-Manager Scenarios

1) Both DePo and McCourt love Orel – he's hired
2) McCourt loves Orel and DePo doesn't, but agrees to work with him anyway
3) McCourt loves Orel and DePo doesn't, and says he won't hire him. McCourt gives DePo an ultimatum and DePo decides to work with Orel anyway
4) McCourt loves Orel and Depo doesn't. McCourt gives DePo an ultimatum and DePo quits (or has his contract bought out).
5) DePo loves Orel and McCourt doesn't – In my mind this is not a possibility.

I think McCourt has already decided that Orel is the next Dodger mgr. It's now up to DePo to decide if he wants to come along for the ride. Hopefully scenario #1 is the way it works out. I would hate to think that he would be forced to work with another manager he didn't want.

The expense of buying out DePo and hiring a more expensive GM probably means that DePo is safe for at least another year (if he's OK with Orel as mgr).

2005-10-23 12:04:47
141.   dzzrtRatt
All I know is, whenever anyone, McCourt, Jimmy Hahn, George Bush, is despised by the press, the last thing they should do is make moves that you hope will make the press like you. I sense a small but not imaginary cause for concern that McCourt thinks firing DePo would earn him points with the press.

McCourt needs to resign himself to bad press in LA until one of two things happens:

1) The Dodgers win a world championship; or
2) He sells the team to someone the press approves of, like Eli Broad or Philip Anschutz.

2005-10-23 12:12:35
142.   willhite
141 -

I think the positive PR swing in hiring Orel would far outweigh the negative of keeping DePo.

If he fires DePo it just makes it seem like one more instance of his flailing away at trying to do things correctly and then realizing he needs to quickly make a change again.

Orel's hiring would give him a "honeymoon" with both fans and press that he hasn't enjoyed since he got here. If he compounds that by getting rid of DePo at the same time, it just draws attention to the fact that he doesn't seem to have a clue.

2005-10-23 12:13:00
143.   trainwreck
If I was McCourt i would not even follow the LA press since it is just garbage. Maybe only check what they are saying when I feel like I need a laugh.
2005-10-23 12:20:48
144.   willhite
143 -

Unfortunately, the press and talk shows seem to have a great effect on a large majority of sports fans (who haven't yet stumbled upon DT).

I can guarantee you that whatever McCourt says publicly, he spends a lot of time following both the press and other media, especially since Arte M. seems to have done such a good job in using them since his purchase of the Angels. By the way, have you noticed that the Anaheim-LA thing seems to have died down quite a bit.

It all gets down to the fact that the public and the media will forgive you for anything if you win, but if you don't, you had better do what you can to make them like you.

2005-10-23 12:26:05
145.   The Saul
Hey everyone,
Been a while since I've been able to post.
Has anyone discussed the possibility of getting Jarrod Washburn to come across town? He's not the missing piece of course, but he is a left-handed starter who I think is better than people give credit, plus he's the kind of pitcher who could do well in LA.
Also, here's a list of free agents to be,
Not a ton out there, but we'll see...
2005-10-23 12:26:49
146.   bigcpa
How is it that Ed Wade got 8 years of rope in a major market with these win totals?


His biggest moves were trading Schilling for Travis Lee etc, trading Scott Rolen for Polanco etc. and committing $85M to 32 yr old Jim Thome.

2005-10-23 12:34:47
147.   trainwreck
McCourt should just concentrate on winning and that is it. That is all that matters in sports and in LA baseball fans will come out and support a winning team. McCourt seems to be a person that cares too much about his image and all this garbage when he should just care about winning a championship.
2005-10-23 13:09:03
148.   bigcpa
145 Washburn scares me with his 94k in 177ip. His ERA was 3.20 but his FIP ERA was 4.39. He's like a Lowe without the groundballs. I'm surprised to see Washburn did not allow a SB in 2005 compared to 17-20 each for our front 3. Save us Navarro.
2005-10-23 13:14:49
149.   dzzrtRatt
Most people who have the drive to become leaders in business, politics, the arts, or whatever have immense, but fragile, egos. I'm sure McCourt is no different. It's compounded by the insular way he runs his business, with lots of family around. Anybody who sees you naked on a regular basis is unlikely to be objective about what someone else says about you in the press. They are undoubtedly obsessed with it, infuriated, and determined to change it. This is the Achilles heel for so many men and women greater than McCourt, so it would be no wonder if he allowed the press to twist his thinking.

DePo seems to have a healthier attitude about his public image. He figures there is no scorecard that counts until some future date when his work can truly be judged, so the press chatter now is just background noise. He'll care what the press thinks about him in about two years or so.

2005-10-23 13:21:17
150.   dzzrtRatt
Whoah. Chargers have a 4 point lead, try to extend it with a field goal. It's blocked, and run back into the endzone by Philly.

Maybe, on second thought, trying to kick a 40-yard FG under these circumstances is a dumb play.

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2005-10-23 13:23:14
151.   Bob Timmermann
Schottenheimer should have either squeezed or used Chris Burke as a pinch hitter.
2005-10-23 13:26:28
152.   trainwreck
This charger game needs to end so I can watch my Raiders make fools of themselves.
2005-10-23 13:46:54
153.   Vishal
[150] how often do FGs get blocked and returned for a touchdown? i think it's generally a pretty safe call unless your offensive line really sucks. in which case no matter what you do it'll probably not work.

just because a play doesn't work out in hindsight doesn't mean it wasn't the right decision at the time. this applies very broadly. i'm sure steve will back me up on this. and i'm sure joe morgan would not.

2005-10-23 13:49:15
154.   dzzrtRatt
From the Arizona Fall League's player journal for Lastings Milledge, the Met prospect. Milledge answers his e-mail.
Big fan of yours. My only question is about your first name, Lastings. I am curious as to where it came from. Is it a family name or does it mean anything? -- Adam

It was because I was the last child, Adam. When I was born, that was it, so that's how it went down. Mom wasn't going to have any more kids, so she came up with it -- Lastings for the last one. It was all Mom. I like my name.

2005-10-23 13:56:03
155.   King of the Hobos
Are his siblings named Firstings, Secondings, Thirdings, etc?
2005-10-23 13:57:57
156.   dzzrtRatt
153 The Chargers were given so many chances to win the game, and they blew all of them.

You're probably right, but at the same time, the possible 10-point swing was at least forseeable. Given how little time was left, they might've been better off sitting on their lead, and trying to bury the Eagles deep into their own territory with a punt. Sometimes football coaches make mistakes out of mindless aggressive zeal. Schottenheimer saw only upside and minimized the potential downside.

2005-10-23 14:03:25
157.   Bob Timmermann
The Chargers were at the Philadelphia 23! Who punts from there?

The options for the Chargers were:
1) try a field goal
2) go for the first down

San Diego's kicker had not missed a kick all season. A successful field goal would have given the Chargers a 7-point lead. A miss would have given the Eagles the ball at San Diego's 30.

The blocked field goal and return for a TD, an event that happens perhaps once or twice a year in the NFL was the worst-case scenario.
But it's chances were remote (less than 1% in my completely wild guess). Most blocked kicks usually go out of bounds or just bounce around in the backfield.

2005-10-23 14:20:14
158.   Bob Timmermann
Philadelphia's blocked field goal return for a TD was the second one of the season.

Last year, there were two in the NFL regular season.

2005-10-23 14:33:24
159.   Tommy Naccarato
I talked yesterday to a person in the know that's around the Dodger organization a lot. (Sorry, I can't go into any detail of who and how)

He informed me that the air in the Dodger front office is so tense, that if one slightly disagrees or suggest something that goes against the McCourt's ideas on how to run the team--that you will be instantly replaced. That this was the same reaction when John Olguin and his assistants were replaced. Imagine my surprise last night (early this morning) when I got home and read the Tim Brown article, almost verbatim of what I heard yesterday.

I suspect that John Olguin was Tim Brown's source for today's article, because he had to get that observation from somewhere.

2005-10-23 14:35:11
160.   Bob Timmermann
But Brown couldn't write "High ranking AL East Executive" if his source was Olguin, because that would be, you know, lying.
2005-10-23 14:35:33
161.   King of the Hobos
What exactly is "McCourt's ideas on how to run the team?" Does DePo disagree or something?

This "person in the know" wouldn't be Tim Brown disguised would it?

2005-10-23 14:36:05
162.   King of the Hobos
160 This is, you know, the LA Times
2005-10-23 14:37:02
163.   Bob Timmermann
A more likely scenario would be somebody from an AL East team, who is at the World Series where Brown is, told Brown what he knew and Olguin likely confirmed it sub rosa.
2005-10-23 14:38:13
164.   Tommy Naccarato
That sounds logical.
2005-10-23 14:38:27
165.   Bob Timmermann

The LA Times writers don't have a reputation for making stuff up. The ethical dilemmas the paper has encountered have been on the management end of the paper, such as "The" Staples Center controversy.

2005-10-23 14:41:16
166.   Bob Timmermann
What time was the first pitch of Game 1? I'm trying to figure out when to go out and run some errands, get some air/exercise, and all that.

The first pitch was scheduled to be at 5:03 last night. Did that seem about right?

2005-10-23 14:42:55
167.   King of the Hobos
So is McCourt going to name himself GM? Or is Drew McCourt getting a promotion? Or is this all overblown because Olguin is genuinely pissed off?
2005-10-23 14:43:55
168.   Tommy Naccarato
This person also confirmed to me that there was problems with DePodesta and the claim it was his decision on who to hire as manager. Suddenly, McCourt got very involved.
2005-10-23 14:44:45
169.   King of the Hobos
166 I don't remember the exact time, but 5:03 sounds about right.
2005-10-23 14:45:16
170.   trainwreck
What's the Staples Center controversy?
2005-10-23 14:46:24
171.   Bob Timmermann

That seems quite believable.

I think a lot of the Dodgers problem could have been solved if Frank McCourt's parents had hugged him more as a child. He just seems to big self-confidence issues.

As opposed to DePodesta who has none and should have spent his youth reading more Mark Twain and less Ayn Rand.

2005-10-23 14:48:01
172.   King of the Hobos
170 The use of the word "the."

So who exactly does McCourt want as manager?

2005-10-23 14:49:55
173.   Bob Timmermann
When Staples Center was about to open, the LA Times had a special of its Sunday magazine devoted to the new building.

As it turned out, it really wasn't the paper's idea. The Staples Center people (AEG) pretty much bought and paid for the whole thing.

The tipoff to all this was that one of the Times senior editors, on the advice from the ad department, noticed that the references to the building were "The Staples Center", but AEG preffered just "Staples Center". There were debates about getting all the galleys changed to remove the offending words.

Eventually it all became public. The paper went into an uproar and the publisher lost her job as well as the editor-in-chief. And the Chicago Tribune then stepped in and bought the paper.

Think of Fox buying the Dodgers and what happened, except much worse.

2005-10-23 14:52:10
174.   Tommy Naccarato
King of Hobos,
In my opinion, I think that the McCourt's are clearly trying to run this baseball team to do one thing--make money. They don't care about the winning as much as they like talking about it.
2005-10-23 14:53:04
175.   dzzrtRatt
{158] I understand blocked kick/runback for TD is not a common outcome of a FG try. But this was a unique situation. The Chargers didn't need the points--it was insurance. If the objective of the play is to eliminate the risk of losing, then I think a coach would evaluate differently the risk of catastrophic failure. If SD was losing, then of course, go for it. If SD was winning by more than 7 points, go for it. If SD was winning by four points, with 10 minutes to play, go for it. In all those instances, risk of catastrophic failure is not only insignificant, it is relatively trivial.

Maybe I've been spending too much time reading about scientists advocating public policy around risks like meteors striking major cities, or an earthquake in the Midwest, i.e. minuscule risks, but with catastropic consequences. Such scientists might not make good football coaches.

2005-10-23 14:54:03
176.   trainwreck
Uh why was there such a big deal about that. Oh my god someone bought PR in a newspaper that has never happened before.
2005-10-23 14:55:35
177.   Tommy Naccarato
The late David Shaw was involved in a lot of that too wasn't he?

Also there was the question of the gratis use of a skybox wasn't there?

2005-10-23 14:56:46
178.   Tommy Naccarato
There is a lot more to it then just the wording. A lot of impropriety was exposed that went beyond the advertisements and special sections.
2005-10-23 14:57:25
179.   D4P
It would be interesting to know how owners really felt about this issue.

Given the choice, would they rather:

1. Win the WS, but lose money,


2. Not win the WS, but make money?

2005-10-23 14:58:07
180.   Bob Timmermann

Despite the blocked field goal return, the Chargers still were able to drive down the field and were in position to go ahead or tie if not for a fumble.

There was still enough time for the Chargers to come back. The event took place with 2:25 left in the game. Points were still needed.

Schottenheimer likely would have gone for it, if he felt his running game was doing anything.

Which it wasn't.

There are a lot of worst case scenarios that could have happened. A fumble could have been returned for a TD or an interception could have been run back.

A seven-point lead would have ensured the Chargers of no worse than going to overtime. It just went all wrong.

2005-10-23 14:59:20
181.   trainwreck
Last few days have made me so much more frightened of what McCourt will do. He is becoming a monster right before our eyes waiting to devour our hope of winning a championship.
2005-10-23 14:59:57
182.   Marty
155 Every other kid inbetween was named Nextings
2005-10-23 15:00:37
183.   willhite
159 - Part of the McCourt problem is that, with the Dodgers, everything is looked at through a microscope. If they were paranoid in the real estate business, not too many people ever heard about it.

They had better figure out that you don't run a baseball franchise the way you do a parking lot.

2005-10-23 15:03:38
184.   Tommy Naccarato
My fear is this--that evetually he will dilute the franchise with such bad attendance and play on the field that he will do a Frontiere and move the team and develop the stadium.
2005-10-23 15:06:56
185.   D4P
I think there's been a concern among some circles all along that he would eventually "develop the stadium."
2005-10-23 15:07:04
186.   Curtis Lowe
181- How so? What has McCourt done that is so bad? Or makes you question his character? And 179 Im pretty sure that winning the WS would be the number 1 priority, is everyone just really bored today? Because there seems to be alot of half ass paranoid comments.
2005-10-23 15:09:48
187.   Bob Timmermann
If McCourt is going to move the team, he wouldn't move far. He'd try to go Downtown.

Or is he just going to pick up and take the Dodgers to Las Vegas or Portland?

2005-10-23 15:11:51
188.   D4P
While I assume that "winning the WS at all costs" is the nubmer 1 priority for some owners, I don't believe that to be the universal sentiment. I would guess that there are some for whom "making a profit" is foremost.
2005-10-23 15:12:19
189.   Tommy Naccarato
I think yiou need to research some of the sutff that has been going on in the last few days to see that all is not well in Dodgerland.

-Did you read Tim BRown's column today?
-Read further some of the posts on this site regarding the current state of affairs internally in the organization. I think its having a huge effect on things.

2005-10-23 15:12:59
190.   Bob Timmermann
If McCourt did want to dilute the attendance, wouldn't he just not bother doing any renovations to Dodger Stadium? That was part of the Tigers plan to get a new stadium.
2005-10-23 15:13:33
191.   trainwreck
All the McCourt talk that he has decided to make himself a big part of the managerial search and the DePo being on a short lease stuff and I just worry he will fire him and hire someone like Bowden.
2005-10-23 15:15:04
192.   Tommy Naccarato
Bob, I think he would move it wherever he feels he could eventually get the best deal for it for bringing the team there and when he eventually sells it.

Portland was the first city that comes to my mind. I think David Allen would be more then happy to own a MLB team in that city.

2005-10-23 15:15:04
193.   Bob Timmermann
If Bowden becomes the GM, he would have to pass a test to prove he can tell the difference between Joel and Cristian Guzman.
2005-10-23 15:15:43
194.   D4P
I'm not sure Tommy was saying that McCourt was "trying" to dilute attendance, but rather that the dilution would be the natural result of putting together teams of players that neither drew fan support nor performed well.

But I may have misunderstood.

2005-10-23 15:15:43
195.   D4P
I'm not sure Tommy was saying that McCourt was "trying" to dilute attendance, but rather that the dilution would be the natural result of putting together teams of players that neither drew fan support not performed well.

But I may have misunderstood.

2005-10-23 15:15:46
196.   Curtis Lowe
189- Paranoid sepculation and here say. Pretty much idle hands are the devils playground, the air round the Dodgers satle right now as we wait to see who the new manager will be and what moves will be made this off season so what better way to cope than to slander the man who is in charge of all the important final decisions.
2005-10-23 15:16:35
197.   willhite
191 -
McCourt may eventually get rid of DePo but I doubt he would ever hire Bowden -----too much of a loose canon.
2005-10-23 15:16:46
198.   trainwreck
I have no fear of him moving the Dodgers out of LA because MLB would never allow that and LA is a much better market to make money.
2005-10-23 15:17:20
199.   Curtis Lowe
196-Air has gone stale.
2005-10-23 15:18:22
200.   Bob Timmermann
Moving a baseball team isn't the easiest thing to do now. I would be very surprised if the other owners voted to allow it. And McCourt can go to court to sue for his right to move like Al Davis did.

A Dodgers franchise out of Los Angeles would have a greatly reduced value. Cities like Portland and Las Vegas would have a fraction of the local TV revenue that L.A. brings.

Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2005-10-23 15:19:58
201.   Tommy Naccarato
Bob, I'm more or less speaking about the long term. They are going to make money with these stadium renovations--that was one of the things told to me yesterday. People will want to come to the park to see them. They need these changes to sell season tickets. My point is that the quality of team will further sink to Titanic depths and THEN he will do the Frontiere. That's the ultimate direction all of this is going.
2005-10-23 15:20:49
202.   willhite
192 -

If and when he ever sells the team, he would get the best deal, by far, leaving it here in L.A.

Moving it to Portland will not increase its value and I would bet that Mr. Allen (I thought his name was Paul) would far rather own the L.A. Dodgers than the Portland Dodgers.

2005-10-23 15:20:55
203.   trainwreck
I just worry it will be someone dumb. I am a big DePo and sabremetrics fan so now that the Dodgers are run with a sabremetric tilt I am extremely happy but I am worried they will not give it a chance to succeed and we will not have a sabremetric inclined GM again.
2005-10-23 15:23:17
204.   Bob Timmermann
McCourt CAN'T do a Frontiere because of the way baseball is set up and its antitrust exemption. McCourt could say "I'm moving the team to Portland," and Selig says, "No you're not and I'm yanking your franchise and giving it to someone else, I've got Eli Broad on Line 2 right now."

Such would be the end of that scheme. McCourt would be better served to increase the value of the franchise and sell it then. He would then get a ton of money and no legal headaches.

2005-10-23 15:23:22
205.   Tommy Naccarato
Are you sure your name isn't Curtis Lowe McCourt? :)

I'll reserve my right to free speech. Frank McCourt is ruining this team; he is ruining the franchise. He is an idiot.

2005-10-23 15:23:33
206.   willhite
203 -
I think it's about time that we start raising funds to buy the team from McCourt. Now, who do we want as our managing partner?
2005-10-23 15:25:00
207.   Tommy Naccarato
Why of course, Jon Wiseman! :)
2005-10-23 15:26:19
208.   willhite
207 -

I guess that was pretty easy, although I thought the Timmermann might get a mention.

2005-10-23 15:27:04
209.   Tommy Naccarato
No, he can be Director of Comunications--this way he can cut me off when he wants to!
2005-10-23 15:28:40
210.   Bob Timmermann
If I were a managing partner, I would keep the Dodgers in Chavez Ravine or Downtown because it would be an easy commute for me. Sort of like why Donald Sterling decided to keep the Clippers in L.A. instead of moving them to Anaheim.

Like Sterling, I'm going to start taking out big ads in the paper where lots of Friars Club like comedians can fete me as "Humanitarian of the Year".

2005-10-23 15:30:14
211.   trainwreck
I wish I lived in Green Bay (not really because I am sure it stinks to live there) just so I could say I am an owner of a NFL team.
2005-10-23 15:32:05
212.   Vishal
what?? people are suddenly worried that the dodgers are going to leave LA? that's ludicrous. get a grip, people.

it's vaguely possible that mccourt might be looking for a stadium deal and to develop chavez ravine, but even horrid scenario is far from being a certainty.

2005-10-23 15:32:38
213.   Bob Timmermann
Sadly, the Green Bay model of ownership is expressly forbidden by MLB's constitution. I also think that no teams are allowed to have any public stock offerings. Cleveland did for a while, but I believe all the shares were bought back.

MLB doesn't like the concept of public trading in its teams because that requires all sorts of public disclosures. Such as showing that the team made a profit when they want to claim that they are running a big debt.

2005-10-23 15:39:54
214.   dzzrtRatt
In talking about McCourt, don't forget this: In January 2004, as his bid was in the process of being approved by the Commissioner, local billionaire philanthropist Eli Broad announced he would match the offer. The LA City Council was about to vote on a motion to urge Selig to turn down McCourt's deal and let Broad have his opportunity.

But, thanks to aggressive unpaid lobbying on McCourt's behalf by the local firm Cerrell and Associates, the motion was withdrawn and the city stood aside. Cerrell's top lobbyist Howard Sunkin was then hired by McCourt to work for the Dodgers full time, cementing the connection between the politicos and the new owners.

If the McCourts' actions as Dodger owner start to run contrary to the commitments they made through their mouthpieces at Cerrell, including Sunkin who's lobbied there for 20+ years, the politicians in the city would not take that insult lightly. Nor would Cerrell, who raises money for all of them.

McCourt knows he doesn't operate in a political vacuum. McCourt is in no position to thumb his nose at the city's political leadership. He need their approval to operate, and the politicians in City Hall are only too happy to take up a populist cause like ousting an owner who broke his promises. I mean, it's not like they have anything else to do.

It's in McCourt's best interests to look steady-handed at the helm, and to avoid the perception that he was not financially or temperamentally qualified for the trust the city and the league placed in him. I think the scenario of McCourt letting DePo fire Tracy, then hire whoever, then firing DePo would convey panic and instability. If McCourt is looking out for his own best interests, that's not the perception he will risk.

2005-10-23 15:39:57
215.   Bob Timmermann
A bigger question is: Why did the season ticket I used for the UCLA game yesterday have a picture of Matt Leinart on it?

The tickets came in a strip and were a panoramic shot of players coming into the Rose Bowl. But as you separated them, the one for the Oregon State game showed a few USC players walking in, one of them Leinart.

He's really tiny in the photo, but still....

2005-10-23 15:41:16
216.   Louis in SF
Bob's point is correct regarding the Portland move-that is a level of paranoia that is a bit too far off the map. What would be interesting would be to have an interview with Olguin and really hear what he has to say on the record. WHat is so crazy about this whole situation, is that I think everyone would agree if you were pro or anti Tracy, clearly it was time for a change if DePodesta was remaining as GM. We are now in that process, the payroll continues to decrease-McCourt should be happy. Is his ego so fragil that he can't take any criticism? Is Depodesta so thin skinned that he can't take the jabs from the LA Times, which most people realize are a bit over the top. The tension that Tommy describes in the Dodger front office, while I have no reason to disbelieve seems to make no logical sense.
2005-10-23 15:42:07
217.   Bob Timmermann

Very well said, Mr. Ratt. (which I say with due respect)

2005-10-23 15:42:55
218.   trainwreck
I could be totally wrong her but it seems like baseball has the most owners who seem to care more about profit than winning. Of course every sports owner cares about making as much money as possible, but in other sports it seems like they are inclined to do something to make a winning team. I mean we got teams like the Royals who will seemingly never put much of an effort into winning. Carl Pohlad who is one of the richest men in America yet claims he can not spend money to raise the Twins payroll.
2005-10-23 15:43:10
219.   willhite
205 -
Tommy - although I would be the last one to be a McCourt apologist, please keep in mind that he brought us DePo, he did not stand in the way of getting rid of Tracy, he has not drastically cut spending on players and he has now, for the second time in two years, plowed quite a bit of money into the stadium (therefore making it a probability that he won't be tearing down the Stadium anytime in the very near future).

I am not a huge McCourt fan, but it ain't all negative either. Having said that, I probably wouldn't want him as my best friend.

2005-10-23 15:51:34
220.   Jon Weisman
New chat thread open.

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