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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
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Jonny, Jonny, Jonny, Jonny, Whoops, Jhonny
2005-10-27 09:37
by Jon Weisman

As the first official day of the baseball offsseason greets us, I have two words for you.

Jhonny Peralta.

You do all this wheeling and dealing and planning and yearning for your team in your mind, and then out there in Cleveland, a 23-year-old shortstop who hit 15 home runs in the International League with an .871 OPS in 2004 comes up in 2005 and hits 24 homers with an .886 OPS (and 58.2 VORP, 26th in baseball according to Baseball Prospectus), emerging as a big reason why the Indians almost prevented the 2005 World Series Champion Chicago White Sox from even reaching the playoffs. And he fields his position at an above-average level to boot (112 Rate2 on Baseball Prospectus where 100 is average, 4.39 Range Factor per where 4.17 is average). It's enough to make me salivate and change the spelling of my name all at once.

There might or might not be a selves-destructive tug-o'war over who the next Dodger manager will be - right now it's all speculation and I'm not into that. Today, I choose to think about the coming Jhonny Peraltas in the Dodger organization, and how sweet it will be if even just a few of them pan out.

Comments (370)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2005-10-27 09:58:17
1.   Bob Timmermann
So can Clemens pitch tonight or what?
2005-10-27 09:59:59
2.   Blaine
I would llke to think that Willie Aybar could be next years Jhonny. He looked good at the bat this past year and I think that he could get a legit shot at third in the Spring. His focus at the end of the year was just getting bat on ball, but with the confidence gained in knowing that he can hit in the bigs he may be able to unleash a bit more and that is where we can see the 50-60 extra base hits.
2005-10-27 10:06:48
3.   FirstMohican
I'd argue that "Jhonny Peralta" hasn't got a thing on "Willy Del Jesus Aybar."
2005-10-27 10:08:30
4.   Curtis Lowe
3-You must be talking about Willie A-Bomb.
2005-10-27 10:10:54
5.   Romyrick
Don't be too quick to overvalue Aybar, in my opinion its going to be Delwyn Young who is the next Peralta.

The only problem is finding him a position but luckily it might not matter if this guys our manager.

Shortstop Joel Guzman, the Dodgers' 2004 minor league player of the year, will play third base this winter in the Dominican winter league for the Estrellas de Oriente.

Terry Collins, the Dodgers' director of player development, said the move was orchestrated by the Estrellas to make room for Texas' Joaquin Arias.

"They called us and asked if we minded if he play third," Collins said. "As long as he gets at-bats, I don't care where he plays."

2005-10-27 10:12:48
6.   fawnkyj
Are you guys talking about Wihlly Aybhar?
2005-10-27 10:34:24
7.   bigcpa
>>> As long as he gets at-bats, I don't care where he plays.

That's a strange comment for a guy who's position is a key concern before he makes the big club. This Collins guy is a reactionary fool. I think it's time to "part ways."

2005-10-27 10:39:50
8.   bigcpa
Apparently 710AM reports Orel is out of the running- Collins still front-runner.
2005-10-27 10:42:13
9.   Bob Timmermann
But did Orel enjoy his dinner?
2005-10-27 10:43:25
10.   Curtis Lowe
2005-10-27 10:45:37
11.   bigcpa
Jeff Biggs reported this based on "insider sources."
2005-10-27 10:47:22
12.   bigcpa
... and I should have said 570AM.
2005-10-27 10:58:13
13.   Curtis Lowe
Why all the Torture?
2005-10-27 10:59:30
14.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
I for one really don't have much of an opinion as to who is manager--I just want it announced ASAP, and I just want it to be a "safe" hire for DePo. Collins might very well be the best option on that front. And then we can start to see how all the off-season moves will look.


2005-10-27 11:02:49
15.   Curtis Lowe
14-If hiring Collins as manager is the first off season move then get ready for a bland off season. Collins is pretty much the Scott Erickson of manegerial canidates.
2005-10-27 11:04:13
16.   Telemachos
570 doesn't exactly have a great track record when it comes to insider scoops.

Steve Hensen's article in the LA Times this morning mentioned the possibility of Hershiser joining the Dodgers in another capacity as well. It certainly sounded like Orel, et al were putting out the best presentation of how his meeting/dinner with McCourt went.

2005-10-27 11:04:35
17.   Bob Timmermann
So is Terry Collins's wife doing a nude centerfold then?
2005-10-27 11:05:06
18.   dzzrtRatt
If Orel is actually out of the running and the report isn't BS, then my guess is Collins became the consensus choice, with Orel having a shot at knocking him off his pedestal, but failed to do so. I bet we hear Collins is picked within the next four hours.

Hopefully, along with it, we'll hear that Luvollo is joining the organization in some capacity.

And maybe, the triple play, Orel comes in to take Collins' current job running the minors. Remember he did say he would take a front office job.

2005-10-27 11:10:06
19.   Curtis Lowe
17- Is Mrs. Erickson actualy going through with that? Whats her name again?
2005-10-27 11:11:30
20.   Jon Weisman
15 - I don't favor Collins over anyone, but saying he is pretty much the Erickson of candidates is pretty much a preposterous comment.
2005-10-27 11:15:48
21.   Curtis Lowe
20-It was in that he was ok in his position in the 90's then he got hurt(fired twice) and will never be good again.
2005-10-27 11:15:55
22.   scanderbeg
Considering that we are all collectively drooling in anticipation at the arrival of some of these "Dodger Blue" chip prospects, I think that Collins would be as good a choice as any. He has to be more familiar with the players in the Dodger farm than anyone [with exception to a few commenters here ;) ].

Do I remember correctly that James Loney fields 1st base well?

2005-10-27 11:22:26
23.   Jon Weisman
21 "then he got hurt(fired twice) and will never be good again."

The analogy doesn't work and the supposition is groundless. Some managers will have the career arc of pitchers, by coincidence, and some won't. There's no basis for suggesting that Collins' peaked.

2005-10-27 11:25:28
24.   scanderbeg
23 Are there recorded career stats for managers? I think I remember talking about this before.
2005-10-27 11:26:24
25.   Curtis Lowe
23-Thats probably why he was fired twice in six years. The analogy was thin but it was only meant to vent frustration by degrading the competition to my canidate.
2005-10-27 11:35:17
26.   Colorado Blue
Who's this?

He managed the Mets through the 1981 season, but was unable to post a winning season; he then took over as manager of the Braves, leading them to the NL Western Division title in his first season (1982) before slipping to second in 1983 and third in '84. After leaving the Braves in 1984, he worked in broadcasting in the late 1980s before being asked to manage the Cardinals in mid-1990. He posted a repectable 351-354 with St. Louis, but they were unable to reach the playoffs and he was fired in mid-1995.

Joe Torre.

I would argue that Joe's abilities and keen insights into player lineups and clubhouse chemistry have less to do with the Yankee success than having the best players on his roster. Point is, a manager's past performance is a poor predictor of future success/failure. IMHO, the best teams in any given year have a cohesive organizational philosophy from top to bottom AND who's players generally play above the average AND stay healthy. The manager is a small but highly visible part of the equation and usually credited or blamed more than their fair share.

Of course, I also believe JT was an exception to this rule :)

2005-10-27 11:36:47
27.   dzzrtRatt
25 As has been mentioned by many, some of the most successful managers in baseball history enjoyed their success after having failed to win and getting fired at previous managerial posts. The best recent example is Joe Torre. Conversely, you can point to many examples of managers with a "track record" of winning who thus far have failed to reproduce it when they managed somewhere else: Mike Hargrove. Davey Johnson. Buck Showalter Dusty Baker (although I guess he did get the Cubs to within a whisker of the Series).

I personally go back & forth on Collins. His main selling point is exactly what scanderbag said--he knows the young up and comers probably better than anyone. His other main selling point is he did manage before, and did okay, though not winning it all.

The main concern to me is this rep Collins has for being too emotional. I don't like working for people whose emotions are out of control, so why would Dodger players? An authority figure ought to have an internal sense of discipline that would prevent outbursts of that nature. Phil Garner throwing a chair after his pitcher gave up a home run is understandable in a fan, but not from the boss. Bosses I've known like that create enormous and unnecessary problems.

Maybe Collins, who's closing in on Social Security status, has licked the problem by now. If so, then he might be the perfect combination.

2005-10-27 11:38:12
28.   Jon Weisman
25 - I'm not trying to pick on you, Curtis, but the goal on this site isn't to have people come here and vent. We should be trying to raise the level of debate here beyond what talkradio and others provide.

I feel like the comments here should be 1) fun and/or 2) worthy of being taken seriously. Making Collins out to be the equivalent of Erickson produces the opposite effect.

It's fine if you want Hershiser or whoever to be the next manager, but everyone should try to keep things in perspective.

2005-10-27 11:38:23
29.   Curtis Lowe
26-If what you say is true about the Manager playing a minor role than what harm would be done having a fresh new manager that would please a crying fan base than one that's been booted by two cities?
2005-10-27 11:42:11
30.   Colorado Blue
29 - Because maybe DePo and Orel don't see eye-to-eye on roster and player development/utilization... you can't convince that was not part of the Dodgers problem in '05. C'mon... Phillips at 1st??? I wonder if DePo had a JT voodoo doll... I know I did.
2005-10-27 11:47:08
31.   Colorado Blue
30 - my point is that from 26: the best teams in any given year have a cohesive organizational philosophy from top to bottom... I think when their is disconnect as vital as GM / field manager, then one or the other has to go. As long as they see eye to eye then the talent gotten is the talent utilized as expected. I doubt seriously DePo got Choi to warm the bench.
2005-10-27 11:47:56
32.   Curtis Lowe
30-I thought we were talking about past managerial experience dictating the future success of a manager, not player dev or utilization(of which Orel being fresh and new doesnt have a style yet). I'd be intersted to know what Collins style was and since hes managed 6 seasons would he change styles? Back to my question in 29, I wasnt saying anything about Depo's or Orel's chemistry, I was asking why a GM knowing that a manager plays such a small role would pick a unpopular retread over a fresh fan friendly one?
2005-10-27 11:51:27
33.   SMY
18 -- I agree with you, I think that if Orel doesn't get the manager position, he could possibly replace Collins.
2005-10-27 11:52:27
34.   Jon Weisman
Curtis, perhaps Orel is the right guy. But the key is not to make a hire that will bring smiles in the offseason - the key is to bring a hire that will bring smiles for the longterm.

You have to realize that it is really quite possible for Orel to have beliefs that do not mesh with DePodesta's, which would put us in the same ugly situation as we had in 2005. I don't know if that's the case - almost nobody does. But I just feel like you're making assumptions left and right instead of being open-minded.

2005-10-27 11:57:07
35.   Mark
Come on, making Collins out to be the equivalent of Scott Erickson is just mean. Collins is at least the equivalent of Kaz Ishii.
2005-10-27 11:57:37
36.   Vishal
[28] so wait jon, you're the only one who gets to use DT to deal psychologically with the los angeles dodgers? :)
2005-10-27 12:00:25
37.   Colorado Blue
32 - Again... Because maybe DePo and Orel don't see eye-to-eye on roster and player development/utilization.

I will add if that's the case and it doesn't matter, then DePo may as well have held onto Jimbo.

I don't care about Collin's style. He can cry like a baby for all I care.

I do care that when DePo makes an acquisition or trade that the manager values and understands why that move was made (whether or not it was good move! But that's a different subject).

2005-10-27 12:00:38
38.   Curtis Lowe
34-I'm assuming that they do mesh and in assuming that, I'm asking with the philosophy of managers playing small roles why when you have to equally meshing managers to you pick the old somewhat more experienced but also more set in his ways over the new fresh face of the future one. I'm not saying Collins is a bad man just asking why he would be the one for the job.
2005-10-27 12:02:52
39.   Eric L
29 I'd rather discuss what the apparent strengths and weaknesses of Terry Collins are. What does he bring to the table? If he is the manager, how will he be different than Tracy?

Admittedly, I don't know much about the guy other than his stints in Houston and Anaheim of Los Angeles and his current job.

From what I can gather, his teams pretty much played as expected. His managerial record and pythag record (according to

'94 Astros - 66-49 (Actual)/67-48 (pythag)
'95 Astros - 76-68/76-95
'96 Astros - 82-80/77-85
'97 Angels - 84-78/84-78
'98 Angels - 85-87/81-81
'99 Angels - 70-92/70-92

Take from those numbers what you will (Jim Tracy's are probably similar).

What kind of evidence do we have with him working with young players? Did Bags or Tim Salmon (or Jim Edmonds) but in big situations while he was managing? What are his thoughts on platoons? What was his bullpen management like in previous stops? Does he pull his starters too soon or too late? Etc, etc.

2005-10-27 12:06:15
40.   Bob Timmermann
So the 1995 Astros runs scored/runs allowed projected them to play an additional 27 games, all of which they lost?

Wow, that's harsh. ;-)

2005-10-27 12:07:02
41.   Eric L
39 Fixing a mistake in my previous post:

Did Bags or Tim Salmon (or Jim Edmonds) bunt in big situations while he was managing?

I should add as well.. did he have good relationships with his previous GMs?

2005-10-27 12:09:03
42.   Eric L
40 Thanks Bob.. sometimes my mind just doesn't carry over those numbers...

'95 Astros - 76-68/76-65

2005-10-27 12:09:27
43.   Curtis Lowe
39-I'd liek to add a question if you dont mind,

Given how Collins has had player relations problems in the past how would he handle Milton Bradley(if he returns),Jeff Kent or Brad Penny's clubhouse personalities?

2005-10-27 12:09:40
44.   Eric L
42 And dang it.. I should just stop while I'm ahead :)

'95 Astros - 76-68/79-65

2005-10-27 12:10:05
45.   Bob Timmermann
Tim Salmon has no sacrifices in his career. Edmonds had one sacrifice during Collins' tenure.

Jeff Bagwell hasn't had a sacrifice since 1994.

2005-10-27 12:12:33
46.   Eric L
43 Another good question..

45 If he is the manager, I'm guessing we won't see JD laying down any sacrifices next year.

2005-10-27 12:13:13
47.   Jon Weisman
38 - If you have equally meshing managers, sure, you could go with Orel. But why would you assume Orel meshes as well as or better than DePodesta than Collins does, when Collins has been working successfully with DePodesta for almost two years now?

What basis is there for assuming that Hershiser meshes with DePodesta at all?

The interview process is there to answer these questions and others like them, and unless DePodesta is being prevented from making his first choice, I really don't see why we wouldn't be happy with that choice, whoever he is. (Unless, of course, you are anti-DePodesta to begin with, which is a whole other issue.)

2005-10-27 12:13:47
48.   bigcpa
Tracy's Wins vs. Pythag:
2001 +4
2002 +3
2003 +2
2004 +4
2005 -3

The exceptional bullpen from '01-'04 could explain this. And the lousy bullpen this year supports the theory.

2005-10-27 12:14:31
49.   fanerman
Ahh Jon. I'm a little disappointed. I clicked on the comments half expecting to see posts by someone named "Jhonny Weisman."
2005-10-27 12:15:00
50.   Colorado Blue
38 - Curtis, on this we agree: all else being equal between Collins and Orel, I want Orel for the obvious reasons.

I'm wondering how well Trammel did.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2005-10-27 12:21:27
51.   Eric L
50 Can't we all agree on that one?

One of my most prized possesions is a signed picture of Orel that I got at a Safeway grand opening in Arcadia back when he was a rookie. I had no idea who he was (then again, I was 7) and don't remember much about it, other than cheap hotdogs and getting autographs from Dodgers.

The other Dodger at the event was RJ Reynolds. I have an autographed picture from him too, but it doesn't mean the same thing.

2005-10-27 12:21:28
52.   Curtis Lowe
47- I'm not anti Depo, How does a manager fit into moneyball? Is he a high priority or a low priority?
2005-10-27 12:23:21
53.   Eric L
52 If you believe Michael Lewis, the manager is a relatively low priority. Without going into it too much, he needs to be on the same page as the GM.

At the same time, isn't that true with all GM/manager relationships?

2005-10-27 12:23:24
54.   bigcpa
50 posts and no Jhonny/Yhency quips. I'll try:

Where have you gone Yhency Brazoban?

The 8th inning needs some zeroes again from you... oooh oooh oooooh.

2005-10-27 12:29:06
55.   SMY
51 -- I got an autographed picture of Orel from the LA Auto Show in 1989. He was signing at the Mitsubishi area. I was too nervous to say much to him. I still have the picture, but it's pretty faded by now. It was a great moment.
2005-10-27 12:30:03
56.   Curtis Lowe
53- So if the manager is a relativly low priority and assuming the two canidates are equally GM friendly, which choice would be better? A retread that would cause fan resentment or a Legend that would rally the support of waning fans?

Of course this whole question is based on the assumption of Depo being true the Michael Lewis's managerial philosophy.

2005-10-27 12:32:11
57.   fanerman
56 - No matter how "low" a priority the manager is for DePo, I'm sure what he wants from a manager is still too complicated to be summed up in the sentence, "he has to be on the same page." I'm sure there are reasons.
2005-10-27 12:32:22
58.   Bob Timmermann
I had some pizza last Friday in La Cañada Flintridge and they proudly displayed an autographed photo of Matt Young.
2005-10-27 12:33:56
59.   Jon Weisman
56 - "So if the manager is a relativly low priority and assuming the two canidates are equally GM friendly, which choice would be better? A retread that would cause fan resentment or a Legend that would rally the support of waning fans?"

Curtis, why do you keep asking this question when it has been answered over and over again?

2005-10-27 12:35:17
60.   Eric L
57 I completely agree on that. Being on the same page probably isn't all he is looking for.
2005-10-27 12:39:19
61.   Curtis Lowe
59-I guess I'm hoping for an explanation with an answer, Besides asking me why I would assume how well Orel and Depo get along.
2005-10-27 12:42:31
62.   Jon Weisman
61 - Multiple people, including me, have said that all things being equal, they would prefer the hometown hero.
2005-10-27 12:45:05
63.   dzzrtRatt
Moneyball is a great, instructive book, but (in my opinion) wrong on a few things. Defense matters greatly. The White Sox are world champs and owners of a sweep thanks heavily to a defense that outplayed both offenses. And he's wrong about the manager. In a large market especially, the manager is one of the three or four most famous people in town with heavy media coverage. Combined with personnel management and implementation of a GM's philosophy, you can't just put any stiff in that role. It's a hard job combining a set of skills, any one of whcih is difficult to do well.
2005-10-27 12:45:54
64.   LAT
Curtis I think you are really Oral under a diffent user name? Has anyone ever seen the two of you together? As a sign of your astute mind you have determined that if you can get the army of DT Posters behind you, swaying Depo & Co. will be easy. Good strategy!
2005-10-27 12:46:21
65.   Jeromy
Aside from keeping the players in good playing shape and monitoring their health to prevent injuries, it occurs to me that one of the primary roles of the manager is his ability to motivate his players. Yes, it is very important to be on the same page as the GM, but it is a skill to get players to come to play each and every day, putting aside their egos and focusing their talents to perform at the highest levels possible.

Ozzie Guillen was certainly successful at doing that this year in Chicago. Lasorda was flopping around the 3rd base coaches box for years in L.A.

So, can Collins or Hershiser or Trammel be a good motivator? I have no frame of reference for Trammel or Collins because I simply never paid attention to their managerial styles when they were managing. Orel has always been considered a good role model and a "bulldog" who led by example on the field. He is a competitor, but I have no clue as to how he would work to motivate a complex group of personalities.

2005-10-27 12:49:23
66.   Curtis Lowe
62- Sorry, I guess I was hoping someone that was pro Collins would have something to say, I didnt realize how many time I asked the same question and after rereading the posts it appears I was arguing with myself. Idle hands.
2005-10-27 12:52:33
67.   Kevin Maxwell
I am thinking that DePo will choose the manager that walks the most.

Seriously, DePo will most likely be criticized for whomever he chooses as Manager. Many fans and writers still have an axe to grind for all of the trades and personnel choices he has made. I think this will remain true until we win the west. Hopefully we won't have to wait too long.

I'll wait to see if I get to criticize or praise his choice. He needs to pick the Manager that he believes will suit the image that he is in the process of shaping, regardless of fan or media approval.

2005-10-27 12:55:51
68.   Telemachos
63 IMHO, "Moneyball" doesn't have an anti-defense stance... merely (a) that the traditional ways of examining/weighing defensive capabilities are very poor and that a more accurate, objective approach is needed, and (b) that in some cases teams wildly overpay for defense.

Seems to me that in the specific case of the '02 A's, Beane needed to address defensive loss while not being able to pay for equal defensive replacements... hence the concept of looking at the sum total of defensive positions that needed replacing and trying to add an equal sum with the new players (though some, like Jeremy Giambi) were far weaker defensively than the players they replaced.

2005-10-27 12:59:01
69.   fanerman
The A's are actually a very good defensive team these days.
2005-10-27 13:20:05
70.   OaklandAs
I don't know why the common perception is that Moneyball teams do not value defense. Maybe because it is often discussed with fantasy baseball, which also is heavily stat-oriented, but does not care about defense. In reality, Oakland, Boston, and St. Louis all are trying to use sophisticated tools to evaluate defense. Defense is a big reason why the A's have players like Mark Kotsay and Mark Ellis, and traded away Eric Byrnes.
2005-10-27 13:21:34
71.   King of the Hobos
Bowden will not become the new Dodger GM, at least not until next April. To celebrate his 6 month contract, he immediately signed Bernie Castro and Damian Jackson. The Padres have had a better offseason than the Dodgers so far
2005-10-27 13:22:52
72.   jasonungar05
Well I think Collins is an excellent choice.

-He has previous managing exp which has allowed him to learn from mistakes as well as successes

-He is a fiery/emotional guy and I'll take that over stoic in my manager anyday.

-He knows our minor league talent better than anyone.

-He obviously gets along and is on the same page as Depo.

2005-10-27 13:24:24
73.   Eric L
70 To take the saberist way out of it, I think at the time that Lewis wrote Moneyball, perhaps Beane felt that defense was overvalued.

Another way to look at it is if you have a Jason Giambi (MVP form Giambi) type, it might be okay (especially since he is a 1B) to punt defense because the offensive value that he brought at the time outweighed any shortcomings he had on defense.

2005-10-27 13:27:26
74.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
After the disaster with Jimbo, I also think we may want to recognize that DePo may be very cautious with regards to this hire. With Collins, he has a known quantity--he already knows that their philosophies mesh. With Orel, everything's a little mysterious, because Orel himself may not know if he'll be compatible with DePo's ideas until he sees them in action. Although I think both sides did the interview in good faith, it may be possible that there are disagreements that may come up in the future, and I must assume this will be in the back of DePo's mind.

I for one would prefer Collins as manager, and if it's possible, Orel as the pitching coach, or perhaps in the front office. I think that would address Curtis' point about fan sentiment, while ensuring that we don't have another painful experience with a manager and GM working at cross purposes.


2005-10-27 13:29:36
75.   bigcpa
I consider the Moneyball approach to defense as "zero tolerance for easy outs in the lineup"... then let's talk about run prevention.
2005-10-27 13:29:50
76.   FirstMohican
Do the Dodgers even need a manager? They could just have a ticker in the dugout that was controlled by DePo.

"...Bradley, You'll be batting left handed next inning... ...Bako, call the bullpen and tell them to warm up Wunsch and Schmoll..."

2005-10-27 13:36:13
77.   Bob Timmermann
The Dodgers need a manager because DePodesta has said that he usually doesn't watch the Dodgers when they are on defense. He says that only bad things can happen then.
2005-10-27 13:48:28
78.   King of the Hobos
After playing 2B in his last game, Delwyn Young played LF yesterday. No errors or anything, but he had a bad day at the plate, going 0-4 with 2 Ks and a SF. Not too many other Dodger events in the winter leagues, Weber went 2-5, and Eckert and Mahomes both started and won despite giving up 4 and 5 runs respectively
2005-10-27 13:51:21
79.   jasonungar05
I always thought that Moneyball was about Economics, not baseball. Maybe I read it wrong. I enjoyed the baseball examples they provided but felt reading the book that it is something that will change as the market changes.

I always felt that it was simply:

How can our 70 million compete with their 120 million.

2005-10-27 13:53:03
80.   King of the Hobos
Roger McDowell didn't get the Mariners pitching coach job, so I suppose he could still end up with the Dodgers as pitching coach. He didn't exactly mold the mediocre Vegas pitchers into anything other than more mediocre
2005-10-27 13:58:35
81.   trainwreck
Ding ding ding we have a winner. People forget that this is Michael Lewis's interpretation of the A's for the time he watched them operate. At the time OBP was an undervalued stat so that is why they concentrated on it. Now they concentrate on defense and guys who do not strike out as much.
2005-10-27 13:58:49
82.   blue22
What's the likelihood of Orel coming in as pitching coach for LA? It's been speculated here that Orel either comes in as manager or in the front office. Why?

Collins reputation to this point (as with most fire-breathers) is that the act grows tiresome and burns out after a few seasons. Orel coming in as pitching coach could be a good plan for if/when that happens with Collins.

2005-10-27 14:09:10
83.   Langhorne
76 That's what a manager is, really, but traditionalists like to have an old, white man in a funny uniform to play the part.

79 Moneyball is about economics but that does lead to how the game is played. If you are trying to win with lesser or undervalued players you want to maximize their chances to win. Based on statistical analysis it is not productive to give away outs in the form of sacrifices or failed stolen base attempts. I can eat just as well, and save money, buying generic products or using coupons. But it won't matter much if I then throw half my dinner in the trash. Which leads me to the conclusion that there are children starving in India because of Jim Tracy.

2005-10-27 14:12:04
84.   trainwreck
I believe you have to be successful stealer 80% of the time to justify it as worthwhile. Even then statistically it does not mean much.
2005-10-27 14:12:25
85.   Marty
Which leads me to the conclusion that there are children starving in India because of Jim Tracy.

You made me do a spit-take

2005-10-27 14:12:54
86.   jasonungar05
83 I totally agree. And not just India.
2005-10-27 14:15:40
87.   regfairfield
84 It's about 72%
2005-10-27 14:16:00
88.   King of the Hobos
Hull did not have his best start in the AFL. In 3 innings, he had 5 Ks, which is pretty good, but gave up 9 runs, 4 earned. Eldred really liked hitting him, and 3 errors behind him didn't help
2005-10-27 14:17:11
89.   regfairfield

And that's only on average. If you only steal in optimal times, runner on first, two out or runner on second one out, it drops to about 66%.

2005-10-27 14:24:29
90.   trainwreck
Which is why Dave Roberts was useful.
2005-10-27 14:53:43
91.   Bob Timmermann
Completely off topic question:

So if I'm driving from Pasadena to Ojai can I avoid a lot of the traffic on the 101 going there if I take the 118 all the way to its end (including the surface street part) all the way to Ventura and hooking up with the 101 there?

I've always found that traffic does not move through the Oxnard-Camarillo area at all.

2005-10-27 15:11:03
92.   Michael G
72 - I agree with your points on why Collins is an excellent choice. I am not necessarily saying he is the best choice, but he does have "pros". Depo must believe in him since Depo has allowed him to raise our future "Blue Chips". In a perfect world, those Blue Chips would also believe in Collins, then when they come to fruition (2007?), the organization as a whole could be on the same page. So then who would be the next logical choice to take control of player development? Could Depo also be concurrently interviewing for that position? If Collins becomes the next manager, does the runner-up get offered the player development job?
2005-10-27 15:12:09
93.   Tommy Naccarato
To repeat what I had posted on here about Fillmore earlier last week when you were going out there for that game: (I just did this a few weeks ago and it was a brutal but beautiful trip.)

Don't try going any other way other then the 101 to the 33 Ojai cutoff. Route 150 via 126 (the back way) goes down to one lane like five times, and there is a lot of waiting. It adds on about an hour to the trip. (no fooling)

2005-10-27 15:15:16
94.   Bob Timmermann
I figured the 150-126 was bad because it's really squiggly on the map. But I thought that taking Mr. Reagan's Freeway out to its end and then hopping on a surface street out to Ventura would at least be a change of pace. I would take the 33-101 back because it would be at night.
2005-10-27 15:27:11
95.   Tommy Naccarato
Well, its a beautiful trip, just like being out in Fillmore and the like. To get there of course you have to go through Moorpark and take the back roads through places that would be perfect to bury a dead body.

Then your out in the farm fields of Fillmore and then of course, the beauty of Santa Paula which is pretty cool all things considered.

What it amounts to is waiting at these portable automated traffic lights that have you waiting for the oncoming traffic to get by. Happens like five times, but the ride is beautiful.

2005-10-27 15:27:51
96.   Tommy Naccarato
The places golf can take you, eh?
2005-10-27 15:29:02
97.   Nagman
When I try to imagine Orel arguing with an umpire, I immediately get images of Tracy. That doesn't work for me, I need somebody more entertaining than "arms folded", but less intense than "base throwing". :)
2005-10-27 15:32:23
98.   Bob Timmermann
Thanks Tommy,
Actually my route is less scenic. It's just the 118, then briefly to the 23 (the Military Intelligence Memorial Freeway and I'm not making that up) and then a ride on New Los Angeles Ave and then Los Angeles Avenue through places like Somis until I hit Saticoy on the outskirts of Ventura.

Sorry for the digression folks, we return you to your regularly scheduled Dodger Thoughts programming....

2005-10-27 15:35:47
99.   Strike4
You're right, incredibly, there is now a rush hour crawl on the 101 from Thousand Oaks to Oxnard. You're okay taking the West 118 - South 23 - North 101 if you're not in that northbound stretch of 101 from 4:30 - 6:30 pm worknights and noon - 3:00 pm Saturday.

Your alternate works fine, although questionable whether quicker even in medium traffic. Take the West 118 including where it exits and turns into New L.A. Ave in Moorpark. Follow it up behind Camarillo to the West 126. Quite a beautiful drive in daytime.

2005-10-27 15:37:53
100.   Marty
Tommy, if you like golf, you gotta get up to Monterey. I got to play Pebble a few years ago and it was like going to Mecca.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2005-10-27 15:39:40
101.   Bob Timmermann
Asking Tommy if he likes golf, is like asking Steve if he thought Jim Tracy needed to be fired.
2005-10-27 15:42:33
102.   Xeifrank
91. You can take the 118 all the way to the 126 in Ventura, then the 126 west to the 101 North which by passes all the bad 101 traffic. Problem is the portion of the 118 that is a one lane highway that goes from Moorpark to east Ventura can also have some traffic with many slow trucks and a few stop lights. You should be going against most of the traffic though. Another option is to drive up to Magic Mtn and take the 126 to Santa Paula, then in Santa Paula you can take the 154 back mountain road to Ojai. There is also a mountain road that connects the 118 to the 126 between Moorpark and Camarillo, that takes you into Fillmore. It is an extension of the 23 fwy, though it is disconnected from the 23fwy portion that connects thousand oaks and moorpark. Take a look at an online map. ( As a local, I know all the shortcuts, which often turn into longcuts. The 101 in Ventura County is mostly a nightmare on friday, when all the L.A. people drive through for their getaway weekend. Any other weekday and rush hour is really only 45 minutes long 5pm-545pm. Some days are randomly better than others.
Hope that was confusing enough. :) vr, Xei
2005-10-27 15:42:37
103.   still bevens
91 I think Bob will do alright by his proposed route. I've seen traffic backed up from the Esplanade to the Conejo Grade on several occasions. Seems like any route is preferable to that one.

I was born and raised in Oxnard and that traffic devastation seems to be a creature that was spawned in the last 10 years or so. I guess the fwy expansion theyre doing over the Santa Clara river isnt helping things.

2005-10-27 15:43:50
104.   Bob Timmermann
Thanks, I really just want a different drive coming and going. I lived near the 118 my whole life and grew up a popped up bunt from it. In fact one of the overpasses near my father's house collapsed entirely in the 1994 quake. So I can take the road the whole way. In all its scenic glory. Of course SR 118 was built first as a road for farmers and now most of it is a freeway that has changed names twice in my lifetime.

Simi Valley Freeway
Simi Valley-San Fernando Valley Freeway
Ronald Reagan Freeway

Hey, some people have Route 66. I've got Highway 118.

2005-10-27 16:20:28
105.   King of the Hobos
The Rays are now interviewing Mike Schmidt for their manager...
2005-10-27 16:33:54
106.   Bob Timmermann
The superstar as manager role has never worked all that well unless it's a player-manager.

The most wins by any manager that I (using my own standard of superstardom) consider a superstar is Frank Robinson's 904 (and even he was a player-manager for one year). And Frank Robinson has finished in first once.

2005-10-27 16:36:16
107.   Linkmeister
I gotta say I'm amused by the route discussion. As a frequent traveler to LA in the mid-1980s one of the most annoying things I ran into was the use of freeway names v. numbers. My cousin in Alhambra gave me directions from Santa Monica as follows: "take the (insert name here) to the (insert name here) and then take a quick right onto the (insert name here)." That quick right turned out to be a diagonal across about five lanes of traffic to take the next exit, which came up within a half-mile.

We use numbers out here: H-1, H-2, and H-3.

2005-10-27 16:36:50
108.   Marty
How many wins does Pete Rose have as manager?
2005-10-27 16:39:21
109.   Bob Timmermann
Pete Rose won 412 games as a manager.
2005-10-27 16:41:40
110.   Marty
107 I used to like that we called all of our freeways by name, but that isn't done so much anymore. No one calls the 210 the Foothill Freeway, The San Diego is called the 405, the Long Beach the 710, even the Golden Statye is more often called by it's number (5) now I think. I'm guessing it started when the 605 went in without a commonly-used name associated with it.
2005-10-27 16:42:47
111.   Bob Timmermann
Milwaukee has freeways named North-South, East-West, Airport, and Miller Park.

It's very hard to get lost in Milwaukee I learned.

It's very hard to find a legitimate reason to ever go to Milwaukee also.

2005-10-27 16:43:20
112.   Marty
And by the way, from Santa Monica to Alhambra, you can take the 10 the whole way :)
2005-10-27 16:44:34
113.   natepurcell
todays natepurcell thoughts:

* i dont really mind collins being manager. i wouldnt really mind if Orel became manager. I guess its not really important in the grand scheme of things

* Season is over, i cant wait for GM meetings, the offseason is almost as exciting as the reg season

* i think i just owned my acct 200 test.

* i cant understand girls, mixed signals gives me major headaches

2005-10-27 16:47:55
114.   Marty
113 If you are still in college, than you have many years of not understanding girls ahead of you :)
2005-10-27 16:48:53
115.   gvette
107-- Does that count the road to Hana on Maui?

106-- Haven't stars been more successful as VPs and GMs--Al Rosen,Hank Greenberg,Stan Musial (with the 60's Cardinals)?

58-- Matt Young lives in La Canada-Flintridge, but his parents still live in Sierra Madre/Arcadia. He is still a very large man. His brother in law is equally large, and had a cup of coffee with the Padres in the late 80's.

51--Orel actually opened his Pasadena (near the Ritz Carlton) house up for a charity Holiday Home tour in the early 90's. Baseball was very,very,very good to Orel.

2005-10-27 16:49:36
116.   natepurcell

i know, i cant wait!/end sarcasm

2005-10-27 16:50:43
117.   Bob Timmermann

You could do that, but it's a little tricky since the Santa Monica Freeway part of the 10 (or the Christopher Columbus Transcontinental Highway or the Rosa Parks Freeway) doesn't easily connect up to the San Bernardino Freeway (nee the Ramona Freeway) part of the 10 when you get Downtown because of the dreaded East L.A. Interchange. You would have to briefly go north and then cut back to get on the 10.

I think the demise of names for freeways started more with the opening of "the 110" because the State of California insisted that it was the Glenn Anderson Freeway despite the project being called the Century Freeway. So people just gave up.

I believe I traveled on every mile of every freeway in L.A. County with the exception of the Terminal Island Freeway (SRs 103 and 47)

2005-10-27 17:01:05
118.   Brent is a Dodger Fan
Re: Moneyball on Managers

My interpretation of what Moneyball says: the manager doesn't add much value by making "strategic decisions" to bunt, steal and suchlike, since these are low (or negative) payoff moves. Since traditional managers like to feel useful during the game, they often wish to make such moves. Since the GM really runs the club, the GM should be able to influence (control) the manager to NOT make those moves.

My personal opinion is that this is more true in the American League because of the DH. You need to treat the 7/8/9 slots a little differently in the NL, and I wonder what DePo has figured out about the differences between AL and NL strategies to date.

(This is on top of the oft-cited GM-chooses-who-plays issue that was, this year, personified by HS Choi.)

That all said, I don't believe Moneyball comments on other areas that can be important with respect to a manager: psychological factors (like motivation), managing the pitching staff and substitutions (again, different in the NL), bringing along younger players, etc.).

So I guess I don't think that Moneyball says a manager is unimportant so much as it seems to make the case that the manager is subordinate to the GM. And what do you expect? Lewis' primary view was through the GM.

2005-10-27 17:04:44
119.   alex 7
Anyone have the time to explain what exactly Collins did as minor league coordinator? What are the job specifics for that?

We're talking about how he knows the young kids coming up, but I'm curious as to how. Did he travel and watch them often? Work with them one-on-one? Decide who played what positions?

2005-10-27 17:09:30
120.   Bob Timmermann
Nate, as for women, as Steve said, they're a little like Phil Garner....

Except most of them don't have mustaches that big.

2005-10-27 17:10:36
121.   Linkmeister
115 Nope. All our freeways are on O'ahu. That "road" to Hana is hardly worthy of the title. But it's a fun way to spend a day, as long as you're the passenger, not the driver.
2005-10-27 17:11:39
122.   Bob Timmermann

I don't know exactly what Collins' responsiblities were, but he should have been the guy who knew how each minor league team was doing, which players it had, how they were developing, who needed help in terms of instruction or even more personnel. All the minor league managers are supposed to write up a report after each game and send it in to tell the front office what's going on. It's not an insignificant job.

2005-10-27 17:12:09
123.   overkill94
117 Agreed about the 10 East LA interchange. Since I live in West LA but have jobs all over LA, Orange, and San Bernardino counties I have to go up to Rancho Cucamongo, Ontario, Chino, etc. once in a while and one day I thought "hey, this place is right off the 10, why not stay on it instead of taking the 60 and cutting up?" Big mistake since it took FOREVER to get through that little 2 mile connector at the interchange. I've found that the 60 is probably my favorite freeway in the southland (minor congestion, less accidents, connects to everything).
2005-10-27 17:16:56
124.   Bob Timmermann
I've found that the 60 is probably my favorite freeway in the southland (minor congestion, less accidents, connects to everything).

OK, I would have to say that now I've heard everything.

2005-10-27 17:18:34
125.   Mark
I dunno, I was a lot more terrified of the road to Hana when I was a passenger... at least when you're driving, you feel that you're in control of whether or not you go over the cliff.
2005-10-27 17:21:45
126.   Linkmeister
125 Well, yeah, but you have to concentrate so much harder when you're driving.

For those who don't know, that road is a 50-mile two-lane job around the edge of knife-edged cliffs a long way above the ocean and shoreline. If you're gonna do it, take water. It takes about 3 hours to get to Hana from central Maui and 3 hours back.

2005-10-27 17:23:21
127.   Bob Timmermann
I found the Road to Hana OK for a while as a passenger until car sickness caught up with me. I had to ride all the way back with my head down so I wouldn't throw up.
2005-10-27 17:29:31
128.   gvette
Given the choice of the Road to Hana, or the 60 Freeway; I find the possibility of being run off the road by a tour bus and hurtling off a cliff highly preferable to sitting in gridlock near the Puente Hills Mall.
2005-10-27 17:30:44
129.   overkill94
124 Well, compared to most of the other freeways I usually use (405, 5, 10, 101, 110, 91, 22) it's my most reliable. The 105 is a pretty reliable one as well, but it's only like 15 miles long and doesn't connect to the freeway (57) that gets me to my office (on the rare occasion I have to be in it).
2005-10-27 17:32:03
130.   overkill94
128 I have a feeling I'm going the more beneficial way whenever I'm on it as well given the usual traffic on the opposite side (east in the morning, west in the afternoon).
2005-10-27 17:37:42
131.   Mark
Granted, I would gladly take the road to Hana over the 405 at 8:30am. It's about the same speed, and the road to Hana is a bit more scenic. (Unless, of course, your idea of scenery is watching people try to apply their makeup via their rearview mirror)
2005-10-27 17:38:33
132.   natepurcell
why are we talking about driving?
2005-10-27 17:46:17
133.   Strike4
I used to denigrate the unsymmetrical and ox cart-originated road system in Boston. Until I tried to explain how to get from Newbury Park to Dodger Stadium on a weeknight. The freeway choices are complex enough (no, don't just take the 101 through the Valley), and forget explaining once you get off the SOUTHbound Pasadena Fwy. Let alone attempting to explain the alternate Broadway route. I guess the Pasadena Fwy is maybe the only one still almost solely called by its name.
2005-10-27 17:46:33
134.   Linkmeister
132Because the Series is over, the Dodger management hasn't made a decision yet about its new field boss, and what else is there to talk about? Unless someone knows a biotech looking for research help and will tell them to give me a call.;-)
2005-10-27 17:47:13
135.   bokonon42
I don't know whether it's worse jumping in to an argument that ended six hours ago, or repeating myself. . .

The best reason not to hire Hershiser, even stipulating that he and Collins are equally qualified (there's no empirical reason to do this, but so be it) is that it's usually a bad idea to hire anybody you can't fire. There has to be an absolute disincentive for insurrection. Tracy thought he could get away with starting Phillips at first. If he hadn't thought that he could, he wouldn't have done it.

Hershiser would be virtually unfirable, here. I don't have any reason to beleive he'd develop some crisis of conscience that demanded he bat Izturis first the whole bleeding year. But if he did, he couldn't be stopped. No matter what, that can't happen. Again.

Five years from now, when this team is good, you can plug in anybody and insist that he uphold the new tradition. That isn't true now. Whoever DePo, the McCourts, et al., pick, I hope they only sign him to a one year contract. Two max.

2005-10-27 17:47:37
136.   Marty
The 710 is slaughter alley. I hate that freeway.
2005-10-27 17:49:18
137.   HomeDePo
Don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but Bob Timmerman's FAVORITE general manager is not going to be the new GM of the Dodgers. That probably means we are not going to trade for Christian Guzman.
(How can you have a 6 month extension?);_ylt=Alov5OD8F.t6w5lg3LECk6wRvLYF?slug=ap-nationals-bowden&prov=ap&type=lgns

2005-10-27 17:53:39
138.   HomeDePo
113 - I agree with you on your last thought but I do not usually post it on public blogs when my screen name shows my first and last name... that's just me.
2005-10-27 17:56:13
139.   natepurcell
I agree with you on your last thought but I do not usually post it on public blogs when my screen name shows my first and last name... that's just me.

eh, i dont think the girl that thought was in reference too spends her day on dodger thoughts.. i dont even think she follows baseball.

yikes, i might have to rethink this....

2005-10-27 17:57:35
140.   natepurcell
anyways. whats everyones prediction of the first big dodger trade rumor? i assume it will probably start around the GM meetings.

probably some zito talk.

2005-10-27 17:59:59
141.   HomeDePo

I am smelling out a lot of Dunn rumours and I hope one of them is true...

2005-10-27 18:06:04
142.   fanerman
I'm guessing acquiring Zito or trading Bradley or both.

When do the GM meetings start?

By the way, how's your secret plan for success?

2005-10-27 18:07:55
143.   King of the Hobos
First big rumor? I'm going to go with an unsunstantiated rumor for a soul-less zombie with an affinity for the walk
2005-10-27 18:10:05
144.   natepurcell
By the way, how's your secret plan for success?

i revealed it a couple weeks ago i think.

it involved acquiring zito and signing giles as basically the two biggest moves.

iguess keeping bradley would be a big move too.

2005-10-27 18:10:30
145.   fanerman
Yeah I know.. just wondering if you've made any updates to it.
2005-10-27 18:13:51
146.   natepurcell
not yet. i am waiting for some rumors of substance or some actual moves to be made first. then ill make adjustments accordingly.

so far, giles and zito and the others are still out there for us to acquire!

2005-10-27 18:45:46
147.   Bob Timmermann
Jerry Reinsdorf campaigns for the Nobel Peace Prize:

"I hope we win it again next year, but I hope the first year we don't win it the Cubs win it," Reinsdorf said early Thursday morning near the Minute Maid Park pitcher's mound.

"Because I think it's time for the people in Chicago to understand that there's an American League team and a National League team, and we ought to root for both those teams. We're Chicago fans. This business of hating the other team is ridiculous."

2005-10-27 18:51:49
148.   King of the Hobos
62 players have filed free agency. I have no idea which (if any) are Dodgers. Billy Wagner, Michael Tucker, and Ramon Martinez are the 3 I know for sure
2005-10-27 18:57:00
149.   King of the Hobos
Durham, Alou, Winn, and Hawkins will all be back with the Giants next year. Winn had his option exercised, and the others all exercised theirs
2005-10-27 19:01:58
150.   trainwreck
I do not think the Dodgers get Zito without giving up Billingsley. I think the A's will want someone who can pitch for them this season or next in return for Zito. The A's want to win next year so taking away a good and reliable starter off that team really hurts that is unless you get someone who can replace them.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2005-10-27 19:09:04
151.   King of the Hobos
Anyone know when Elias releases the various Types of FAs? I'm hoping sometime soon...
2005-10-27 19:18:33
152.   fanerman

SecondHandSmog posted that on 6-4-2. I wonder who it is...

2005-10-27 19:26:40
153.   HomeDePo
I do not want to deal with Beane.
2005-10-27 19:28:21
154.   King of the Hobos
Hmmm...I'm thinking Timo Perez
2005-10-27 20:03:30
155.   Vishal
my money's on podsednik.

regular season: 0 HR, 1 triple
postseason: 2 HR, 3 triples

it's gotta be the juice!! :P

2005-10-27 20:04:10
156.   Art H Tracy
135 I've been thinking the same thing about hiring Orel. Except - my sense is that he is the most intelligent and open minded candidate. So I see it as a very high risk - high reward proposition.
A couple of other things:
Regarding McCourt's engagement in the hiring process - does anyone think that he might be making it clear to the candidates that Depo is the man and the manager is just a role-player in this organization?
Also - something I mentioned a couple of weeks ago, but it passed wothout comment: How about adding to our "requirements" for the new manager the attitude that the field manager job is a stepping stone to a GM position. Hopefully, this would yield candidates who are on the same page as Depo and weed out the "baseball" men who have contempt for their bosses.
2005-10-27 20:04:54
157.   Xeifrank
To chime in: I think the manager does make a big difference, especially if he doesn't play the best players... and especially when he has the 2nd best hitter bunt with the best hitter on deck who will surely get an IBB if sac bunt is successful. I think Steve's blog documented very well why the manager is important.
vr, Xei
2005-10-27 20:29:33
158.   bill cox
#22-Can James Loney play first base?Are babies born without clothes on?Do bears crap in the woods?The boy is a natural.I predict if he isn't foolishly traded,he'll be the Dodger first baseman for 10 years.
No,I'm not related to him and I'm not his agent.I just think he's a really good looking player.
2005-10-27 20:53:32
159.   Vishal
[158] but what happens when choi hits 40 homers and drives in 100 runs in his breakout season next year?? :)
2005-10-27 20:56:45
160.   King of the Hobos
The Dodgers have had two precious commodities file for free ageny: Darren Dreifort and Jose Valentin

The whole list:

2005-10-27 21:01:51
161.   Xeifrank
Which Dodgers are free agents next year?
Kent? Drew player option? Who else?
vr, Xei
2005-10-27 21:06:38
162.   Steve
161 -- The guy with the aborted Tommy John surgery who all the Drew-whiners are going to want to throw money at with reckless abandon.
2005-10-27 21:11:08
163.   GoBears
160: Wow, that's a pretty bleak list. Other than Giles and maybe (maybe maybe) Mueller, I don't think much of any of 'em. Paul Byrd, perhaps, but I have a hard time believing he'll repeat this year's suprise performance.
2005-10-27 21:11:17
164.   Steve
Angels fans are reduced to hoping that Finley got caught using steroids.
2005-10-27 21:14:03
165.   GoBears
Byrd is about to turn 35, and made $5M last year. Actually, his 2005 numbers weren't far from his career numbers, but he can't be more than a 1-yr option.
2005-10-27 21:17:49
166.   Steve
The race to overpay Bob Wickman is on.
2005-10-27 21:20:44
167.   GoBears
This was just the first day to file, right? Presumably, there will be additions to this list in the next few days/weeks?
2005-10-27 21:21:27
168.   King of the Hobos
163 That's only the initial guys who filed for free agency, there's still a lot more. That doesn't mean it isn't bleak though...
2005-10-27 21:23:56
169.   Steve
There's a list of the guys who haven't filed yet too.
2005-10-27 21:26:37
170.   King of the Hobos
Sorry if this quote is old, I don't remember seeing it in the papers...

"Mr. McCourt will make a great decision, whether or not I am the manager or in the front office"

Orel doesn't indicate the third possibility, why? Am I reading too much into this?

2005-10-27 21:28:34
171.   dzzrtRatt
117 Not to be nitpicky, but it's the 105 that we were all supposed to bow down and call the Glenn Anderson Freeway, not the 110, which is the puffed up new number of a freeway that used to be humbly numbered in two digits, "11," and which a good portion of Angelenos still refer to as the Harbor Freeway (south of downtown) or the Pasadena (north of downtown). I don't know why they upped it to 110. It certainly has not improved by a factor of 10. And, to my knowledge, it still doesn't qualify as an interstate, unless the government is confused about whether our Wilmington is the same place as Wilmington, Delaware.

I was out of state this morning when I read all the posts about Orel, but just read the LA Times story now. Why does anyone suppose McCourt and Tommy didn't want DePodesta at dinner with Orel?

2005-10-27 21:30:08
172.   Bob Timmermann
It's scary that Lenny Harris, an NL player, is listed as a DH.
2005-10-27 21:34:46
173.   Bob Timmermann
Sorry for the error Ratt.

Especially since I commute to work everyday on the 110, aka the Historic Arroyo Seco Parkway.

Wilmington, California was named after Phineas Banning's hometown of Wilmington, Delaware.

2005-10-27 21:36:11
174.   bokonon42
156- I see the big risk, but I don't see the big upside. A bad manager can produce obvious, if not necessarily measurable, harm. But I'm not sure the inverse is true. Isn't a good manager one who least impedes his team's inherant potential? No added value, just also no subtracted value. I look at Orel (right now) as betting a million dollars on black, a million on red, and hoping to G-d it doesn't come up double zero.

I'm ignoring the psychological aspect to managing, since it's even less measurable. But it would seem to apply only to the margins (the wankers and the berks, to borrow an analogy). Normal players would seem to play about as well as they're able to, about as often as they're able to. It deserves consideration, but I don't know why Orel would be better suited to the task. How many of the current Dodgers were Orel fans?

2005-10-27 21:52:04
175.   dzzrtRatt
173 I'll never forget when one of Tom Bradley's press secretaries argued with a reporter on live radio that Wilmington was not part of the City of LA. (It is.) That got a lot of tongues wagging on Anaheim Boulevard.

For those of you living in the LA area, the historic Banning Mansion in Wilmington is an obscure treasure, well worth a visit.

2005-10-27 21:58:23
176.   dzzrtRatt
One wonderful outcome of this World Series: The Giants fans having to eat crow over Sabean's disasterous dealings with AJ Pierzynski. Not only did they give up three genuinely good pitchers to get him, they gave him up for nothing, just to appease the pitching staff. The Giants are stuck with Matt Matheny, one of the most boring catchers in baseball. And now, Pierzynski is a curse-busting star.
2005-10-27 22:00:53
177.   Xeifrank
So, does anyone know which Dodgers will be free agents or have a player option to leave at the end of the 2006 season. I didn't quite understand the Tommy John surgery post. vr, Xei
2005-10-27 22:03:40
178.   MikeB
From "The Bill James Guide to Baseball Managers", 1997, pg. 307

"Terry Collins....
Uses his bench freely. Likes to use the running game. Looks for "matchups" in his lineup. Didn't have enough left-handed batters in Houston to platoon much, particularly after they traded Luis Gonzalez."

2005-10-27 22:03:45
179.   Marty
Anaheim Avenue! Great Cambodian community there now.
2005-10-27 22:10:54
180.   bokonon42
177- It has to be Gagne, right? Izzy's TJ was a real TJ, wasn't it? Gagne went in for a TJ, came out with a scar tissue scraping. I think Steve was using the Alan Greenspan method of preventing a flamewar.
2005-10-27 22:12:43
181.   Steve
I wasn't trying to prevent anything. Most of Drew's detractors are lousy hypocrites and they already know it.
2005-10-27 22:14:47
182.   FirstMohican
If Drew had the scrappiness to dodge balls coming straight at him he wouldn't have detractors.
2005-10-27 22:16:37
183.   bokonon42
I stand corrected. But does that mean that anybody who was happy with the Drew signing has to support Gagne getting a big new deal, too?
2005-10-27 22:17:26
184.   Steve
Who was happy with the Drew signing?
2005-10-27 22:20:59
185.   King of the Hobos
177 Kent, Drew (the option), Ledee, Bradley, Alvarez (technically...), and Gagne
2005-10-27 22:21:33
186.   Eric L
The Giants are stuck with Matt Matheny, one of the most boring catchers in baseball.

He's so boring that people don't even remember his first name is Mike.

Sorry, just had to do it. :)

2005-10-27 22:23:10
187.   Steve
When Izturis is a free agent, they'll want to give him Jimmy Rollins money. There will be no mention of surgeries whatsoever.
2005-10-27 22:23:30
188.   King of the Hobos
184 I was very happy
2005-10-27 22:24:59
189.   Steve
I am never happy with large contracts, definitionally.
2005-10-27 22:28:14
190.   FirstMohican
Drew ~ 5x$11M isn't exactly a steal and is probably closer to overpaying than it is to a good deal. I don't think anyone was celebrating after they heard the news last spring, but who hates the deal?
2005-10-27 22:31:47
191.   Steve
Well, I think that's basically right. I mean JD Drew is certainly worth half of Carlos Beltran, and he got half of Carlos Beltran's money. It was both a good deal and a bad deal, and that is what confuses people.
2005-10-27 22:32:54
192.   popup
A few thoughts that are against the grain of what most people are expressing here. Many are advocating that DePo be the absolute boss, that the new manager be in some sort of lock step with the GM. I remember when Fred Claire brought Eddie Murray back to LA for a stretch run drive a few years ago. Claire said something about Murray being a guy who would win games for the Dodgers in the heat of a pennant race. Poor Bill Russell put Murray into every big game situation he could find, and Eddie did nothing but strike out and ground into double plays. Just because the GM and manager are on the same page does not mean that the writing on that page makes any sense. If Bill Russell thought Eddie Murray was done as a major league player, he should not have used him no matter what the GM was saying in public.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-27 22:33:52
193.   King of the Hobos
I don't like the length, but I liked the deal. I liked Drew, and "injury risk" really doesn't phase me. I thought it was a little much for a steal, but with Boras and Detroit, I don't think we vastly overpaid.
2005-10-27 22:45:19
194.   fanerman
192 - That sounds like a case of either 1) both the manager and GM being wrong or 2) the manager being subservient to the GM. Both are bad. I hope the new manager can understand DePo's logic and idea but at the same time be able to say (and back up with solid evidence) "I think we should do this instead" when he disagrees with DePo. I don't want feet dragging and I don't want blind loyalty, just people who are willing to work together.
2005-10-27 22:46:17
195.   bokonon42
192- I think almost every GM with an ounce of self-respect would agree with you 100%. That's why I'm rooting for a manager without any.
2005-10-27 22:49:47
196.   bokonon42
195- Oops. Not GM, manager.
2005-10-27 22:53:19
197.   alex 7
As for those wondering why Orel didn't mention anything about becoming the pitching coach, didn't Depo make it clear that he was going to hire a manager and allow that manager to pick his coaches? That would mean no one will be hired as pitching coach before a manager is hired.

That's what I remember reading a few weeks back.

2005-10-27 22:57:13
198.   King of the Hobos
197 That's correct. I wouldn't be completely surprised if DePo and McCourt have some say in the matter, but the new manager will have the ultimate decision it would seem.
2005-10-27 23:01:15
199.   Steve
There has been a premium lately on ensuring that everybody is able to "work together."

DePodesta has one year. If he doesn't make it work, then McCourt (who we must assume the worst about, then hope for the best) fires him and hires an idiot like Bowden. Then who saves us? From DePodestites, this "work together" mantra appears to assume that DePodesta will always be GM. I am far too skeptical about human nature for that.

The next manager not only has to "work together with DePodesta" but has to survive the next possible idiot GM that comes along, who will probably seek to continue our latest fascination with Felipe Alou's idiot bench coaches. For this reason, I cannot agree that we want a manager who is a cipher.

2005-10-27 23:06:21
200.   dzzrtRatt
192 Claire was just a terrible GM. Nice guy, but he ran the team like the PR man he was. He had a thing for fading stars. Not just Murray, but Strawberry, Davis... His one good move was getting Nomo, which was also a great PR stunt that happened to get us a great player. But the farm system's collapse began on his watch. And he came off as a weeny when he said he wanted to resign when the Fox people traded Piazza behind his back.

Eddie Murray did have one good season, though.

Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2005-10-27 23:07:51
201.   Steve
Not to mention that ciphers, like our dearly departed, tend to be overly taken with their press clippings.
2005-10-27 23:17:05
202.   bokonon42
199- I don't think it's fair to assume the very worst of the McCourts, yet. Fair to worry about it, but not to assume it. There has to be some reason he hired DePo and not the run of the mill dreck.

Also, picture the perfect manager. Now picture him managing the 2005 Royals. It may be fulfilling in a things-could-have-been-worse way. But it's still a horrible year.

2005-10-28 00:00:09
203.   molokai
I disliked the JD Drew contract because of length, cost, and because it meant I had to root for a player I can't stand. It all goes back to his petulant draft behavior. Just like most Dodger fans will forever think of Hochevar as a dolt if he does not sign a reasonable contract with us. I have no problem with Major League free agents but I have a real problem with kids who have never played a professional game getting such ridiculous bonuses when so many of them fail to ever produce at the big league level.
2005-10-28 00:11:56
204.   Bob Timmermann
Bill Plaschke has come out in favor of Hershiser.

He's not happy with the process. He knows better.


2005-10-28 00:16:51
205.   Eric L
200 To be fair to Fred, during his regime the Dodgers signed or drafted:

Piazza (88), Karros (88), Pedro Martinez (88), Beltre (94), Nomo, Gagne (95), Mondesi (88), LoDuca (93), Konerko (94), Eric Young (89), Park (94), Astacio (87), Valdes (91), Osuna (91), Hollandsworth (91)

You are certainly correct in saying that the farm system's collapse started towards the end of his watch. As best as I can tell, (from glancing at baseball cube) the best player to come from the farm system towards the end of his watch was Alex freaking Cora.

It certainly seems like the Dodgers were doing pretty okay assembling minor league talent in the late 80s. They picked up some decent guys in the early 90s and totally fell off the table by '96.

I wonder if O'Malley selling the team had anything to do with the downfall? Did the scouting director change around '91 or so? Did Fred's fascination with fading stars cost them too many high draft picks?

Fred certainly made some boneheaded moves during his tenure (Pedro, Pedro, and more Pedro) but it would be interesting to examine why the Dodgers were doing a fairly decent job of assembling talent towards the beginning of Fred's tenure and then totally fell off the table by the end.

2005-10-28 00:37:18
206.   Uncle Miltie
I feel really sick right now..I agree with Bill Plaschke! Terry Collins is the guy that I DON'T want to see managing the Dodgers...EVER!
2005-10-28 00:42:46
207.   Bob Timmermann

Go to your dictionary and write down your new definition of "dilemma".

2005-10-28 01:27:13
208.   popup
#205, Konerko was and is better than Alex Cora. You are right though that the Dodger triple A team went downhill fast in the late 90's. I live in a triple A city and always try to catch the Dodger affiliate when they come to town. I have not seen a good Dodger triple A team in years. I'm not just talking about won/loss record; the talent has just not been there. Some isolated players have been ok. Konerko looked like a good hitter and I was impressed with Aybar.

The manager/GM dynamic is fascinating. The criticism of Claire for trading Pedro is in my mind justified, but from what I have heard Tommy was the one who wanted Pedro gone. At the end of the day I think the composition of the roster is the GMs responsibility and the utilization of the roster is the managers responsibility. I am not saying they should be on different pages, but I don't think they should be doing each others job.

Tracy got a lot of flack here for his performance as manager. If I had been the Dodger manager I am certain DePo would have fired me because I would have been in his office day and night to complain about the roster. My biggest criticism of DePo so far is his affinity for lousy catchers: David Ross, Brent Mayne, Paul Bako, and Jason Phillips. Luckily for Dodger fans Charles Johnson refused to be added to that list.

I am with Jon in looking for better days ahead. Navarro may not be a star but he at least looks like a major league player. Ditto Aybar. Though I am critical of DePo for some things, overall he seems reasonable when I have heard him talk. He has kept the farm system intact, and he has added a solid major league pitcher in Brad Penny. If the kids in the farm system are as good as advertised, I look forward to a Dodger/Indians World Series in the not too distant future.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-28 04:24:40
209.   John A
Bill Plaschke is biased, close-minded, always-predictable, one-trick jackass.

Sorry Jon, that's my way of dealing psychologically with the Dodgers this morning.

It's hard to believe that the L.A. Times once employed talents like Jim Murray. Back in the '80s, Bill James commented in a Baseball Abstract that L.A. had as good a group of newspaper baseball writers as any city in the country. That was a long time ago...

2005-10-28 04:29:57
210.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
How many people still even bother to read Plaschke around here? I certainly don't. I only look at the LAT's raw reporting now--I have no desire to read anything by Simers or Plaschke.


2005-10-28 07:34:13
211.   King of the Hobos
When did the Angels owner give the Dodgers permission to speak with Sciocia? I wouldn't want that, I just don't remember it
2005-10-28 07:48:00
212.   SMY
I think it was reported that Moreno said he wouldn't stand in Scioscia's way if he wanted to talk to the Dodgers, but that he would fight to keep him if they offered him the job.

It's just more out of control sentimentality from Plaschke.

2005-10-28 08:01:13
213.   Curtis Lowe
178- Eeeek. FTC?
2005-10-28 08:03:13
214.   Bob Timmermann
At first I was wondering why someone was invoking the Federal Trade Commission.
2005-10-28 08:12:08
215.   Curtis Lowe
I think Its clear that Terry Collins has methods of mass destruction and due to these mmd's we as Dodger fans should launch a preemptive strike and neutrilize the threat before these MMD's can be targeted towards us.
2005-10-28 08:13:29
216.   Steve
"The top qualification to become the Dodger manager doesn't seem to be ability, but whether you are DePodesta's friend"

How dare DePodesta hire his friends when everyone knows the only real qualification is to be Bill Plaschke's friend.

More rank hypocrisy. They ought to bottle it and sell it as after-shave.

2005-10-28 08:16:42
217.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Assuming Collins is the guy, does this increase the chances of Guzman staying at SS? I seem to remember a quote of his when he said that he disagreed with the BA view that Guzman will outgrow (if he hasn't already) SS. Although I wouldn't expect it, with Izzy out and Oscar Robles nothing more than a no. 8 hitter, if Guzman has a great ST, I wonder if we should maybe give him a taste of life in the bigs.


2005-10-28 08:21:48
218.   TheDictator
215 - Clearly you are misguided. It is not FOD's that have MMD's its the FOP's (Friend of Plaschke) that have them.

Recent images from space have capture trucks moving square objects of a paperlike substance that we believe are transmitting secret messages to the FOP's. We also believe that these messages contain information regarding the MMD's.

We must act now. If we do not, the FOP's with the MMD's will attack our national institutions that we as Americans hold true and dear.

Today the FOP's have attacked us, both they will soon have our response!

(this is too much fun!)

2005-10-28 08:25:41
219.   Curtis Lowe
Post 178 made me cry myself to sleep..
2005-10-28 09:04:48
220.   Nagman
San Diego paper is reporting Giles and the Padres are "far apart". Reportedly the Pads offered 3 years at $7M.
2005-10-28 09:05:17
221.   Nagman
220 Obviously that should be $7M per year.
2005-10-28 09:14:00
222.   Sospiro0
Slate had a nice article on the demise of sports writers a few weeks ago. Many of them--just turn on ESPN to see which ones--are focused more on their tv persona then actual solid sports reporting. My problem with Plashke lately, is that his rants offer nothing more than what we bloggers provide, though we obviously use more rational than he does. Print journalism has become equivalent to a bathroom break on his road to PTI stardom. Though he can sometimes irritate fans here--mostly because he disagrees with us--I have respect for Tim Brown and Steve Henson, who at least attempt to do research. How else would he get a "high level source"? I'd rather have that than completely unfounded, illogical articles.
(I don't think PLashke's ever been on PTI but i used it anyhow)

By the by, this is my first post--first time poster, long time reader.

2005-10-28 09:15:38
223.   Bob Timmermann
So nobody told you about the hazing ritual for first time posters, eh?
2005-10-28 09:17:22
224.   Sospiro0
If I could take my frat's hazing, I can take yours! Oh wait, I'm not in a frat.....oh uh
2005-10-28 09:20:08
225.   Curtis Lowe
Your required to recite Plaschke while watching Mork and Mindy reruns as you listen to ABBA.
2005-10-28 09:20:17
226.   Vishal
[222] plaschke appears on around the horn, not pti. but it's all the same crap.

ps. welcome aboard!

2005-10-28 09:22:38
227.   blue22
220 - That's good news, though I'm torn between wanting Giles for 3 years, or trading for someone like Dunn.

I think Dunn could be a cornerstone for this franchise for the next 10 years. I wouldn't doubt it would mean parting with Guzman to get him though.

2005-10-28 09:25:38
228.   Humma Kavula
There's also the fact that we have no idea what the Reds are asking for. All that Giles requires is the high bid.
2005-10-28 09:28:42
229.   blue22
228 - That's why I assume it'd take Guzman, a kid pitcher (Orenduff? Tiffany? no CBill or Brox.), and maybe APerez.

Depends on whether you want to "sell high" on Guzman.

2005-10-28 09:30:07
230.   Humma Kavula
...the thing is, as somebody pointed out a couple of weeks ago, every team's fans seems to think that Giles would be a perfect addition because he'll be cheap. I can't help but think that if everybody was after my services, I would raise my asking price.

If Giles can be had for a reasonable price, great. If Dunn can be had in a trade that doesn't cripple the future teams, great. Hell, why not both; pitching will be weak next year and the team will need all the offense it can get.

Pipe Dream 2006:


And as long as I'm dreaming, I'd like a pony.

2005-10-28 09:37:25
231.   Sospiro0
I'm a big fan of Dunn, but not his home/away splits. Dodgers stadium probably wouldn't hurt his homeruns, but would no doubt further decimate his batting average. Unless he's going to increase his walks to a Bondsian rate, he might not be worth the trade off. A .240-.250 ba with .380+ obp and lots of power would be plenty nice though, if he could pull it at Dodger stadium.
2005-10-28 09:39:18
232.   Mark
Your free-agent All-Star squad:

c: Brad Ausmus
1b: Paul Konerko
2b: Ray Durham
3b: Bill Mueller
ss: Nomar Garciaparra
of: Sammy Sosa
of: Brian Giles
of: Reggie Sanders
dh: Mike Piazza

sp: A.J. Burnett
sp: Kenny Rogers
sp: Jason Schmidt
sp: Ugueth Urbina
sp: Matt Morris
rp: Eddie Guardado
rp: Billy Wagner
rp: Trevor Hoffman

2005-10-28 09:41:25
233.   blue22
232 - That's a pretty sweet All-Star team...circa 1999.
2005-10-28 09:51:44
234.   Nagman
232 Ramon Hernandez instead of Ausmus.
2005-10-28 09:55:08
235.   dzzrtRatt
205 This may be a highly interpretive history, but: Fred Claire became GM in '87 after the immensely gifted and knowledgable Al Campanis made idiotic remarks on ABC's "Nightline" about blacks lacking "necessities" to become major league managers--coming off like a the racist jackass that I believe he, in fact, was not.

Nevertheless, Peter O'. had no choice but to fire Campanis, and that's when Claire took over. Why Claire? I guess the organization was feeling very wounded, and wanted someone from the inside with a soothing, healing sort of personality to run the machine that Campanis had built.

Just as we wait two or three years before judging the impact of a new GM, it takes several years before the absence of a prior GM -- especially one who left under such circumstances -- becomes apparent. While it's true that the players you mentioned joined the Dodger system under Claire's watch, it was Campanis' guys who found them by doing what they had been trained to do by the master during his successful 19-year reign. But, after awhile, Campanis' team moved on or retired, and Claire didn't have a clue of what kind of talent should replace them.

I just looked up Campanis' Wikipedia entry, and it's sad--all it mentions is the Nightline appearance, basically. But this is one of the guys who really developed the Dominican Republic as a source for baseball talent, among many other innovations. If "the Dodger way" means anything, it was Campanis that codified it and modernized it, and when he left, we basically lost it.

My request for this off-season would be for Jon to pull together a good, factual essay about Campanis for us to all beta-test, and then take that final product and move it into Wikipedia, so Campanis' legacy can be more appropriately portrayed. It might do both DePodesta and McCourt some good to really understand what, and who, made the Dodgers great in the 70s and 80s.

2005-10-28 10:00:00
236.   dzzrtRatt
232 Isn't Urbina a reliever? Also, I think the Giants just tendered Schmidt. He's off the market.

Proving that familiarity breeds contempt, you also omitted Jeff Weaver. Notwithstanding all the slagging Weaver gets around here, he will be one of the most coveted pitchers on the FA market, almost as much as Burnett, and certainly more than Rogers or Morris.

2005-10-28 10:05:19
237.   Curtis Lowe
235- I dont see why he cant be forgiven for a single ignorant comment, We live in a world where the popes a nazi so I guess anythings possible.
2005-10-28 10:08:25
238.   Eric L
236 I understand that Weaver will get more interest than Morris, but is there any good reason for it (aside from age)?
2005-10-28 10:12:42
239.   Curtis Lowe
238-He pitches alot of innings and with proper mgmt his amount of homeruns given up could possibly go down.
2005-10-28 10:13:30
240.   Vishal
[238] good question. they look like pretty much the same pitcher.
2005-10-28 10:14:02
241.   Curtis Lowe
240- Boras?
2005-10-28 10:15:48
242.   scanderbeg
232- That is a particularly weak class of free agents. I think DePo would be wise to stay away from free agency for the most part.

Also, isn't Johnny Damon a free agent? I think he is a bit more valuable than Sammy Sosa.

2005-10-28 10:16:28
243.   Eric L
239 He did give up a lot fewer homeruns in '04 and was just slightly above average.

I just have the fear that some team (and I hope it isn't the Dodgers) is going to pay a lot of money for a guy that pitches alot of innings at an average rate.

2005-10-28 10:24:14
244.   dzzrtRatt
They're pretty close, but Morris has more mileage on him. Plus, I'd argue that Weaver's 14-11 record with a terrible Dodger team and an inept manager like Tracy represents more of an achievement than Morris' 14-10 record with one the majors' elite teams, playing for a superior manager. Whenever Weaver pitched, it seemed like the season was on the line for the Dodgers, and he frequently responded well that that pressure--burying his earlier rep as a pitcher who could not deal with pressure. Whenever Morris pitched, it was: "Oh well, if he loses, we still have Mulder and Carpenter to fall back on."

If it wasn't for the likelihood that Weaver will demand too many years and too much money, I'd want him back in a heartbeat. But as I said, familiarity tends to breed contempt, and I figure most everyone else here would feel DePo had jumped the shark if he resigned Weaver.

2005-10-28 10:35:33
245.   Colorado Blue
I'm going way back in time here as for some reason I lost connection to DT for nearly 24 hrs.

157 - Xei, I think the point is well made... the manager is most important in a negative connotation. If the manager is ideally someone who implements the GM's philosophy then he is simply a conduit for strategic decisions to be realized. However, if the manager pulls a JT, well then, strategy is lost and analogoies of round pegs and square holes take affect. e.g. Jason Phillips (round peg) at 1st base (square hole). Bottomline, strategic resources are not utilized properly if the manager is in direct defiance of his GM.

2005-10-28 10:35:56
246.   Eric L
244 Interestingly enough, Weaver has more ML innings on his arm than Morris. Of course, Weaver only pitched 36.1 innings as a minor leaguer while Morris pitched 269 innings.
2005-10-28 10:37:42
247.   dzzrtRatt
237 By and large, I think Campanis (who's been dead for 7 years) was 'forgiven' for his remarks. No less than Don Newcombe stood up for Campanis almost immediately. There was a lot of talk then about how we was confused, tired, couldn't hear what the host Ted Koppel was saying through his earpiece...

But Campanis said what he said on a national television program about Jackie Robinson, for chrissakes. And when Ted Koppel challenged his first dumb remark, Campanis dug deeper, and started babbling about blacks not being champion swimmers because they lacked buoyancy, and comparing that supposed fact with their inability to serve as major league managers. "Lack buoyancy" became a major punchline in '87--not just racist, but laughably racist.

This was at the height of the political-correctness era. O'Malley foresaw, accurately, that keeping Campanis would lead to protests, boycotts, official denunciations from on high. This would have been mortifying for a man who ran in O'Malley's social circles, not to mention damaging to the team economically. I'm sure he felt his hand was forced, that Campanis had damaged himself too much. O'Malley did the right thing, the only thing he could have done.

What was unfortunate, from a baseball standpoint, was that O'Malley didn't replace Campanis with someone of equal stature as a baseball man. That's the decision that represented a fatal turn for the worse, and accounts for the long championship drought.

2005-10-28 10:42:20
248.   Colorado Blue
192 - And that's why this DePo's year to be under heavy srutiny from his employers. If the Dodgers re-live '05 DePo is in my opinion history.
2005-10-28 10:44:04
249.   Marty
Yes, fair or not, Campanis had to go after that. O'Malley had no choice. I remember thinking that Campanis had kind of lost it as a GM by then anyway, but now I can't remember why I thought that.
2005-10-28 10:47:24
250.   dzzrtRatt
249 It could be that Campanis, like most great execs with big egos, had failed to groom an heir apparent. He was 71 when this episode occured. He was probably due to retire soon. But I doubt that under any other circumstances that a guy like Fred Claire would've become Campanis' successor. But I could be wrong--maybe O'Malley thought Claire was a baseball wizard.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2005-10-28 10:54:41
251.   Eric L
250 Wasn't Lasorda assumed to be Campnanis's heir apparent when Campanis was ready to step down?
2005-10-28 10:57:23
252.   fanerman
230 - I'd be willing to sign Giles for up to $12ish million per if it were for 2 years with a team option for a 3rd (or something similar). It's not like we have outfield prospects that are ready to produce at above-average levels.
2005-10-28 11:05:45
253.   Bob Timmermann
The LA Times articles from 1987 speculated that Lasorda was indeed being groomed to be Campanis's replacement. However, Lasorda had just signed a 3-year contract as manager. Also, the Dodgers minor league director at the time, Bill Schweppe, announced his retirement, so there weren't a lot of available replacements.

There were rumors that Pat Gillick would be joining the Dodgers in 1988, but he was going to take over Claire's old job of VP in charge of player personnel.

Apparently, the Dodgers have been waiting for Pat Gillick for quite a while.

At the end of the 1987 season, O'Malley announced that Claire and Lasorda would return in their same roles. And 1988 made any further personnel changes remote.

2005-10-28 11:08:15
254.   bigcpa
252 $12m! I love Giles but the guy hit 15 hr last year- 9 outside of Petco. He should be priced around Drew with less power and 5 yrs older.
2005-10-28 11:15:16
255.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
208 I think it's way overboard to say DePo likes bad catchers. He traded LoDuca because he wanted to get value for an aging catcher who was about to become overpriced and was showing signs of serious decline. And he traded for a pretty good prospective catcher in Navarro, with another one waiting at AA. With those two nearly ready for prime time, why go out and overpay for someone else? There aren't many catchers who can hit at all, so they come at a premium.
2005-10-28 11:20:36
256.   fanerman
254 - I imagine I'm willing to spend more for Giles than most people. But we need an OF. Giles costs us no prospects (well, a draft pick). I'm not sure I'm ready to give up a Guzman or LaRoche to get Dunn. And Giles has one thing Drew doesn't: durability. We have the money and if it's not for too long we won't be crippled by it. I don't see Giles dropping off considerably in 2 years, and his power numbers should go up at Dodger Stadium.
2005-10-28 11:40:53
257.   jasonungar05
Plus if he liked bad (ok, he isn't bad, he is avg) catchers, he would have keep LoDuca.

Never in my life have I seen one guy get so over rated once he was gone. Well yeah, there is Cora. Well and Beltre. Ah, never mind.

2005-10-28 11:41:10
258.   underdog
I'm not quite as in love with Giles as some of you are, given he's getting up there and seems like he's on a slow decline, but agree he'd be much less of a risk than trading top prospects for Dunn. And he does always hit for a good average, and get a lot of walks, so he'd definitely help the Dodgers.

This was in the last San Diego Union Trib, piece about Giles and Pads being far apart:

"Among the clubs interested in Giles are the St. Louis Cardinals, who made it known in July they tried to trade for him. The Boston Red Sox also showed interest earlier this month, and although the Oakland A's aren't big spenders, they tried to trade for Giles in his Pirates days and employ one of his best friends, catcher Jason Kendall. Bick also could hear from the L.A. Dodgers, one of six clubs Giles excluded from his trade-veto list four years ago." [sorry if someone already posted this earlier]

2005-10-28 11:42:58
259.   Colorado Blue
I'm wondering how much Gile's numbers were affected by Petco. I don't really care as much about the 15 HRs, but only 83 RBIs in 158 games? I'm not sure how SD as team stacked up offensively though. My guess is that they were below average in runs scored and it is possible nobody was getting on ahead of him.
Anyway, some stats:
.423 .483 .301 .906 - 2005
.413 .542 .299 .955 - career

My guess is that slugging decline was PETCO related. However, I think DS depresses slugging as well. His patience at the plate has remained steady, if not improved.

At 35 though, he's most likely in decline. However, given Drew's numbers and what they come out to per game, I'd be willing to give Giles 2 years at $11M per. He made $8M last year so I don't see getting him for under this amount unless it's a longer-term deal.

2005-10-28 11:55:20
260.   sanchez101
I dont think giles has slowed down much at all. He'll never hit 40hr's again, especially if he stays in the NL west. But last year he set career highes in triples and doubles and walked twice as much as he struckout. Moving to dodger stadium would cut down on the 2b's and 3b's but would be offset by an increase in homeruns, anyways, just because his numbers dont may not look as good in DS doesnt mean he isnt just as good. A career .413OBP is valuable no matter the XBH.

Giles also stole 13 bases at his career % rate and his defense has remained steady since 2002, about average. BP's comps for giles include Gary Sheffield, Carl Yastremski, Edgar Martinez, and Stan Musial, all players who besides being excellent hitters, aged very well into their late 30's. If there is such thing as a player likely to maintain excellence into his late thirties, it would be Brian Giles

2005-10-28 12:01:05
261.   Colorado Blue
259 - I should have been clearer: I don't care about the 15 HRs because I think if he played 81 in DS he would hit at least 20 - 25.
There were 66 HRs hit in Petco last year (the fewest in the ML), 101 in DS.
2005-10-28 12:05:09
262.   fanerman
Brian Giles splits:
home: .267/.378/.417 12 2B, 5 3B, 6 HR
away: .333/.463/.545 26 2B, 3 3B, 9 HR

Adam Dunn splits:
home: .274/.418/.639 18 2B, 0 3B, 26 HR
awat: .221/.359/.446 17 2B, 2 3B, 14 HR

Yeah there's the age thing but Dunn's splits still scare me. Plus he costs prospects. We have the money for Giles.

2005-10-28 12:05:40
263.   Colorado Blue
259, 261 - Oops! I meant Petco was ranked 66/100 in terms of HR production (100 being average), DS 81/100. Sorry...
2005-10-28 12:08:11
264.   Curtis Lowe
What off season moves do you think the other teams in the NL west will do that could threaten the Dodgers 2006 success?
2005-10-28 12:10:11
265.   Colorado Blue
262 - Can't argue with your logic too much. However, given the thinness of our outfield prospects, I would prefer to have a long-term solution for the outfield, especially if we lose Bradley. I might like Giles for 3 years given his resiliency.
2005-10-28 12:11:17
266.   Telemachos
The D-Backs have jumped on the Moneyball bandwagon, hiring Josh Byrnes as their new GM. He was the assistant GM under Theo Epstein, is 35, and according to the ESPN article, is "known for his elaborate statistical analysis of the game and its players".
2005-10-28 12:11:32
267.   Colorado Blue
264 - Good question! I think SF has all ready made a statement given the options they've exercised... especially if Bonds is healthy.
2005-10-28 12:14:26
268.   Curtis Lowe
267-Its funny I'm more scared of Randy Winn continuing his end of 05 tear into 06 than I am of a healthy Bonds.

266- Could the next fex years be the Battle of the Apprentices?
Little Beane Vs. Baby Theo Round 1 coming 2006.

2005-10-28 12:27:28
269.   Curtis Lowe
In ESPN's article about the DB's new GM it mentions that the number one priority is the Bullpen, could we be seeing Ugeth Urbina in the desert?
2005-10-28 12:31:02
270.   scanderbeg
266- How long is the Shawn Green contract? Just wondering how long Byrnes is going to be handcuffed by an aging, declining player in a corner outfield spot.

Imagine if the Diamondbacks hadn't traded Overbay, Spivey and others for about 10 games of Richie Sexson.

267- San Francisco made a decent run at the end of the season. I could see the ESPN gurus and prognosticators picking them to win the '06 NL West right now.

2005-10-28 12:35:28
271.   regfairfield
270 I don't see why they wouldn't. Most of them thought the team would be fine without Barry, imagine what they'd do with a full year of him.
2005-10-28 12:37:31
272.   SMY
266 -- But he won't be pilloried in the media for every little thing, because Billy Beane didn't write a book about him. Also he helped break The Curse.
2005-10-28 12:59:00
273.   scanderbeg
Does anyone ever get excited for the baseball draft? I know that the Dodgers have a pretty high pick this coming year (around 6 or 7), though they haven't signed their #1 pick from this last year's draft. I saw the posted bit from a Mike James piece that says that players drafted from college are more likely to be successful than players from high school. Does DePo have an outright philosophy about drafting college vs. high school players?
2005-10-28 13:00:04
274.   MikeB
NL West Observations
SF - aging lineup, Bonds final year?, heavy debt load for ballpark restricts roster moves. Minors are very weak, especially position players who can hit.
AZ - bloated roster due to contracts (Glaus, Green) Might still be paying off Matt Williams? Some good prospects arriving or close. Heavy debt load thanks to the BOB and Colangelo. New GM, New manager. New owners. Might take a while to sort things out.
COL - Good young core arriving and more on the way up. What to do with Helton? Solid fan base. GM (Dowd) in place since '99 but still can't figure out how to setup roster to win at Coors AND on the road. FA pitchers avoid this team!
SD - Roster is a mixed bag. Minors are the same. GM on the way out. Playing at Petco is reverse of Coors Field. How do you setup a roster?
LA - Coming off poor '05. Injuries, management conflict, etc. Looking for leadership in dugout. Roster needs fixing and good health for rebound. Excellent minor league system (we hope). Plenty of resources (fan base, beautiful stadium, TV/Radio revenue, etc.) to rebuild, reload and rebound. Fans keeping their fingers crossed.
2005-10-28 13:03:04
275.   Curtis Lowe
274-Nice breakdown, anyway to see what each team has to spend this offseason and what holes they need to fill this off season?
2005-10-28 13:04:28
276.   popup
#235 & 247, dzzrt, there are just not too many execs with the quality of Campanis. Campanis was the moving force in the organization in favor of giving Sandy his bonus. The whole Nightline thing was very sad, but I think after it O'Malley was right to fire Al. Very sad.

267, I would think the Giants right now are the best team in the West. They were better at the end of the year than at the start. They got younger and better as the season progressed. If Schmidt is healthy, the Giants have a three starters in Schmidt, Lowry and Cain who have the potential to be very good. I don't like their bullpen that much. Watch out for Arizona if the new GM is given authority to rework the roster. The Dbacks have some major league ready prospects in Triple A.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-28 13:10:15
277.   Brent is a Dodger Fan
205 etc. Re: Fred Claire

My memory of Fred Claire boils down to just one trade: Pedro Martinez for Delino DeShields. Perhaps it is time for me to get past that... Maybe I will when the Dodgers win a Series again.


2005-10-28 13:19:57
278.   Bob Timmermann
Being the best team in the NL West at this juncture is nothing to brag about.

In addition to their Bonds problem and the bullpen problem (although Eyre was great and Benitez wasn't bad except when he faced the Dodgers), Durham shows that he's starting to get old fast. How JT Snow is still playing is always a surprise, but the Giants heir apparents last about as long as rivals to Richard III. The Giants have a very old core.

I would think Arizona would be a more likely candidate to sneak in at the top, but I can't believe that Tony Clark is going to repeat his 2005 season.

Colorado could be a lot better next year.

The Padres I believe are headed for a decline next year.

The Dodgers? I've got no clue.
To paraphrase Shakespeare:
More than they seem, and less than they were born to

2005-10-28 13:20:59
279.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
"Does DePo have an outright philosophy about drafting college vs. high school players?"

I've seen Beane quoted that college players aren't the bargain that they were a few years ago, in part because others have figured out that collegians have more success. So I would imagine we'll continue to see the mix that he's shown us so far.

2005-10-28 13:36:45
280.   molokai
How many RBI's would the great JD Drew have had if you extrapolate his numbers this year? I'm thinking around 75 at most. 93 was his high mark and before that it was 73. If no one is going to hold the low RBI totals against JD Drew why hold them against Giles?

I agree with several other posters that we should give Giles a large front loaded two year deal with an option on year 3. Don't waste the money on the wasteland of free agent pitching, get some bloody hitting. Use our trade bits for the pitching. An outfield of Cruz/Drew/Giles with Werth/Ledee/D Young backing up the group works for me much more then Dunn who not only will take a hit at Dodger stadium but his LF defense continues to go south. Joe Sheehan of BP did a nice little look at the Reds and found that they have a huge problem. The 3 best hitters are Griffy/Dunn/Lopez. The 3 worse defensive players are Griffy/Dunn/Lopez. What to do?

2005-10-28 13:59:15
281.   bokonon42
Quick show of hands, who thinks it's funny to call the pope a Nazi?
2005-10-28 14:03:11
282.   Curtis Lowe
281- I dont find it funny at all, I find it revealing.
2005-10-28 14:09:14
283.   bokonon42
Revealing is exactly what it is. No better word for it. Well, not any that are allowed, here.
2005-10-28 14:10:53
284.   popup
Bob, I agree that best in the West at this time of year is meaningless. Jason Schmidt is a bigger injury risk than JD Drew in my opinion. I am surprised they picked up the option. I guess they must think there is nothing structurally wrong with him and they are in the best position to know.

255, looking back DePo should have upgraded the backup catcher when he came aboard. I am not critical of the LoDuca trade. I would rather have Penny than anything DePo gave up to get him. I have already said
Navarro looks like a major league player. But I don't see how anyone, old school or saber, can claim that the Dodgers had a major league catcher on the roster from the time LoDuca left until Navarro took over. Ross, Mayne, Bako and Phillips are not my idea of a starting catcher. Maybe in a pinch they could be backup catchers behind a strong #1 catcher, but in my mind that is about it.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-28 14:11:03
285.   King of the Hobos
The Seibu Lions have rejected Daisuke Matsuzaka's request to be posted. There's still a chance he could be posted, as he's pretty determined to come over here

2005-10-28 14:11:25
286.   Tommy Naccarato
I don't find any humor in it at all. Now both of you go say 12 Hail Marys and four Act of Contricians!
2005-10-28 14:11:41
287.   dzzrtRatt
The only people who should be called Nazis are Nazis.
2005-10-28 14:12:38
288.   Bob Timmermann
It wasn't like the man had a lot of options in joining the Hitler Youth. It was required of males over 14. But that's really neither here nor there in this forum.

I never knew we would get the chance to invoke Godwin's Law in Dodger Thoughts.

2005-10-28 14:15:46
289.   Bob Timmermann
Godwin's law (also Godwin's rule of Nazi analogies) is an adage in Internet culture that was originated by Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states that:

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.

Although the law does not specifically mention it, there is a tradition in many Usenet newsgroups that once such a comparison is made, the thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups.

2005-10-28 14:22:08
290.   Curtis Lowe
289- Did I lose? If so then I guess so did forgiveness.
2005-10-28 14:23:07
291.   Curtis Lowe
289-Only a communist would make a law like that.
2005-10-28 14:24:21
292.   dzzrtRatt
289 Perhaps to illustrate your point, I googled "Bush Nazi", and got over 6 million hits. "Pope Nazi" got only 2 million hits, but he hasn't been in power as long. But that's still more than "'Bin Laden' Nazi," which got only 1,720,000 hits. "'Hillary Clinton' Nazi" got only 300,000 hits, which I suppose speaks well for the Clinton-haters vs. the Bush-haters or the Pope-haters. And, by the way, "'Ryan Seacrest' Nazi" only got 900 hits, and "'Jim Tracy' Nazi" only 166.
2005-10-28 14:27:26
293.   Xeifrank
So, it looks like from everybody's dream 2006 lineup that everyone thinks Bradley is going bye-bye. If so, can't the Dodgers trade his rights to another team? In otherwords if we do say bye-bye to Bradley can we get something back in return? And from yesterday, I asked which Dodger players were free agents at the end of the 2006 season or had an opt out clause. Anyone know? Thanks in advance... vr, Xei
2005-10-28 14:29:07
294.   Xeifrank
292. Was that W Bush or his dad or his grandpappy? Should break it down between the three. :) vr, Xei
2005-10-28 14:29:50
295.   Curtis Lowe
293- Besides Kent,Gagne and Drew(Option) I cant think of anyone else.
2005-10-28 14:29:52
296.   dzzrtRatt
If so, can't the Dodgers trade his rights to another team?

Yes. It's unlikely he'll just be released, and Bradley is not yet eligible to be a free agent.

2005-10-28 14:34:55
297.   King of the Hobos
293 Drew, Kent, Bradley, Ledee, Gagne, Dessens maybe, and Alvarez technically as of right now
2005-10-28 14:35:49
298.   Bob Timmermann
I think the Giants have clinched the 2006 NL West title because they have re-signed Jeff Fassero.
2005-10-28 14:41:26
299.   fanerman
293 - I'd like to give Bradley one more chance, but I don't know the details of his situation so I can't really comment.
2005-10-28 14:41:40
300.   Marty
I never knew we would get the chance to invoke Godwin's Law in Dodger Thoughts.

Bob Timmermann causes more Google searches by me than any other person.

Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2005-10-28 14:43:00
301.   Bob Timmermann
I invoked it once when I called George Steinbrenner a Nazi in my younger days.

Well, off to the wilds of Ojai. I'm finally going to have to put gas in the Prius on this trip.

2005-10-28 14:45:23
302.   Jon Weisman
292 - When I worked for Disney, I often heard people call the studio Mousewitz. It was not meant to be taken seriously - just a comment on how miserable many of the people were working there. But it always bothered me - seemed both insulting to those good people who were at Disney and of course to the memory of concentration camp victims.

Once at a party someone said it for the umpteenth time and I objected, saying people had gotten too cavalier about such things. People suddenly thought I was the P.C. Police. Peter Krause, who was on the show I was working for, was sitting next to me and really shocked that the mild-mannered writer's assistant was having this reaction - he wasn't putting me on the defensive, just surprised that I cared that much.

In any case, I found the Soup Nazi as hilarious as most everyone else, but in general I do wish people didn't use the word Nazi so freely as sort of a knee-jerk criticism of people.

2005-10-28 14:45:24
303.   Marty
Bob, did you get one of those ugly carpool lane stickers?
2005-10-28 14:49:01
304.   fanerman
302 - Peter Krause of Casey McCall fame?
2005-10-28 14:51:32
305.   natepurcell

matt kemp article. he talks about pitch recognition and plate discipline enabling him to breakout this year.

personally, hes a blue chip prospect for the blue. 40 homer potential CFer with his tools!??! forgetaboutit!

2005-10-28 14:55:13
306.   Curtis Lowe
Kemp? Sounds too much like Kent. He wont be good for the clubhouse trade him now before anyone figures that out.

Of course I kid I kid.

2005-10-28 14:55:42
307.   gvette
235--It must be slow around here if we're invoking the name Al Campanis.

Seem to recall that

1)the Dodgers had already had 2 out of 3 losing years when Al went on Nightline;

2)that he had recently traded young talent Dave Stewart, Sid Fernandez, John Franco and Rick Sutcliffe, who became very good, for basically nothing in return;

3)that his heralded minor leaguers like Brock, Marshall, Dave Anderson, Stubbs,Candy Maldonaldo and Kenny Howell turned out to be very ordinary;

4)except for renting Madlock in '85, he hadn't made a successful trade in years, and the Dodgers didn't sign free agents after Goltz/Stanhouse.

In other words, a more forward thinking leader (ie someone bolder than Peter O'Malley)should have planned an exit strategy for his 71 year old, declining "Chief".

2005-10-28 15:03:42
308.   dzzrtRatt
307 You've got a good point. Campanis probably was past his prime by 1987. Pat Gillick should've been running the team already. The late O'Malley years were too cozy, too cronyized. Still, Al Campanis deserves to be known by history for a good deal more than being 'the guy who said racist stuff on Nightline.'

But what got me into the issue was thinking about Fred Claire. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't imagine how he could've become Dodgers' GM any other way than how it happened.

So many bad decisions, by so many people, over the course of so many years, led Dodgerland to the decrepit state it now occupies. Who, O Lord, who will lead us to the promised land?

2005-10-28 15:11:15
309.   gvette
"Who, O Lord will lead us to the promised land?"

If I'm not mistaken, Bill Plaschke volunteered (again) this morning.

2005-10-28 15:14:39
310.   underdog
I know I'm one of the few on here who overtly dreams of Paul Konerko coming back to the Dodgers (even though, yes, they'd have to overspend, and... well, otherwise I, too, am hoping Loney can continue to rise up the ranks, or that Choi, in a second chance, can come through.) But I really really hope he doesn't go to the (NotLA)Angels.

Anyway...Nice little Yahoo piece on Konerko, the CWS and the Angels here:

Includes this:
"Three years ago, the then-Anaheim Angels won their first World Series and every decision since, from spending on players to marketing throughout Southern California to changing their name to the Los Angeles Angels, has been about muscling in on the historic turf of the Los Angeles Dodgers.
The Angels may be way out in Orange County, but they don't act like it anymore. They made the ALCS this year in part because they spent over $15 million more than the Dodgers, who failed to make the postseason.
It isn't a coincidence that Konerko's most ardent suitor probably will be the Angels."

2005-10-28 15:19:59
311.   Jon Weisman
304 - yes, I was overtly name-dropping.
2005-10-28 15:21:26
312.   trainwreck
Well with Byrnes now I doubt the DBacks waste tons of money on the likes of Russ Ortiz again. The DBacks having a competent person in the front office does not help us at all. He will probably be smart and allow those talented prospects to play.
2005-10-28 15:22:16
313.   alex 7
Looking it up, LoDuca didn't fare ALL that better than Phillips the last two years.

Phillips OPS of .650 with 10 HRs in 400 abs
Lo Duca OPS of .714 with 6 HRs in 445 abs after a .690 OPS two seasons ago.

I vote for a Drew, Bradley, Giles OF in 2006 and picking up Dunn as a FA for 2007, the year of JtD and company. Either Drew will leave by 07 or Bradley gets traded or allowed to sign elsewhere.

2005-10-28 15:30:50
314.   Jon Weisman
It's going to be very interesting if the Yankees get seriously interested in Bradley.
2005-10-28 15:47:31
315.   fanerman
313 - That's what I'd like. Still not much of a Dunn fan, though.

314 - What could the Yankees give us? A-Rod?

2005-10-28 15:49:05
316.   molokai
Sorry but I need to vent so some of this may not make much sense but I just don't feel like editing.

Why does everyone pine for the days of Peter O Malley? His final slap in the face of his legacy was to sell the team to Fox. Talk about an overrated owner. One incredible draft transformed the inept Dodgers of the late 60's into a powerhouse team from 74 on but it took our one in a million chubby Fernando to get those boys a well deserved World Championship in 81. One fluke World Championship in 88 since Sandy retired is the only thing that our Dodgers can point to if not for that amazing draft and crafty Mexican. Were talking 40 years now. Not winning a playoff since 1988 until last year! That has become the Dodger way because that legacy is a lot longer then our long ago success. For a team that draws 3 million every year that is what should be unforgivable. How come Simers and Plaschke weren't so worked up about that fact? But hey hire a kid with glasses and a computer and an out of town owner and they can sure get worked up about that. I'm so sick of the LA Times I just want to spit. How's that for a cliche'd line.

The Dodger way!!!!!!!! That died in 1966 and his name was Sandy Koufax. It only had a brief run from 63-66. I'm so tired of hearing about how pitching and defense are the Dodger way. It is easy to rely on pitching and defense when you have Koufax/Drysdale. Has any team since the early 60's relied on pitching and defense? The 2003 version did, but what did it get them. Not a damn thing.

I liked Al but he should have been replaced several years before he was cowardly fired by the gutless owner. He did a nice job of adding the right parts to the team during the 74-81 run. He didn't do much right after that.

2005-10-28 16:08:29
317.   Jon Weisman
315, part 2 - Huh?
2005-10-28 16:11:32
318.   fanerman
317 - Just reminiscing about the pipe dreams we had a couple weeks ago when the Yanks got eliminated from the playoffs.
2005-10-28 16:12:17
319.   Tommy Naccarato
Bob, I hope the travel plans are all set for tonight, in fact, you should have left by now!

100 Marty,
Been up to the Penninsula for golf on many occasions. We'll talk about that one later maybe someday while on the links! Then of course there is New York's Eastern Long Island, and that's probably pretty special too. I was there for a rather large portion of this last Dodger season. (8 weeks to be precise May 10th to July 10th)

Here was the course I was more or less living at:

For golf, it's a pretty special place, and many of those nights when I did in fact get lonely for home and I would be posting on Dodger Thoughts, it was from here. It sort of made the losing more tolerable! :)

Well sort of...

2005-10-28 16:13:40
320.   dzzrtRatt
308 I agree with your larger point: Peter O'Malley was a mediocre owner. But to argue the case the way you do, your thumb is too obviously on the scale. The Dodgers were NL champions five times after 1966. Only St. Louis, with six, tops that, with Atlanta and Cincinnati tied with the Dodgers at five apiece. In addition, the Dodgers won their divisions, but lost in the playoffs, four times, and were the Wild Card once. To paraphrase Billy Beane, "nobody's %%%% works in the playoffs," but by entering the postseason 10 times in the 38 years since Sandy Koufax, the Dodgers have put themselves in a position to win it all more than most teams in baseball.

If you're saying that the Dodgers should be the NL's version of the Yankees, given the size of this market and the great attendance--I might go along with you. But even the Yankees missed the playoffs for 13 consecutive seasons in the 80s and 90s.

2005-10-28 16:14:33
321.   dzzrtRatt
Actually post 320 was supposed to refer to post 316.
2005-10-28 16:16:01
322.   King of the Hobos
If Bradley goes to the Yankees, it will be for prospects, who likely won't be particularly great. There are other teams that have better players to give us, but it's hard to say what interest there is for Bradley.
2005-10-28 16:18:11
323.   Marty
But Bradley can't go to the Yankees. They promised to never make a deal with us again :)
2005-10-28 16:22:04
324.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 323

I know the Yanks need a CF, but wouldn't Cashman be crazy combining Bradley's emotional state with the Bronx Zoo? I know there's been a press report that's mentioned it, but I just don't believe it.

Maybe if they truly become desperate about moving the supposedly unclutch A-Rod and his salary, or some weird scenario like that.


2005-10-28 16:23:52
325.   King of the Hobos
323 They already broke that promise. Joe Thurston is a Columbus Clipper, and a PTBNL is still TBNL
2005-10-28 16:28:56
326.   dzzrtRatt has a story about the center fielders the Yankees might pursue. Bradley is one of about eight players (not including Crosby and Matsui) who could end up playing CF for them, leading with Torii Hunter and Juan Pierre.
2005-10-28 16:43:02
327.   Xeifrank
So is anyone else concerned that Drew (player option), Kent, Bradley and Gagne will all be free agents at the end of next year? I guess on the glass half full side of things, it does free up alot of salary. If you had to make a list of the four of who was probably overpaid the most, how would you rank them? Food for thought. vr, Xei
2005-10-28 16:45:48
328.   King of the Hobos
327 I'm more concerned about the loss of Ledee =)

Honestly, I don't think Bradley will stay (McCourt's say, not DePo's). Drew probably won't exercise the option, and I'm willing to bet the Dodgers pick up Gagne's option, unless he's injured again

2005-10-28 16:48:25
329.   jasonungar05
Rambo is back in business. Sylvester Stallone will reprise his role as gun-toting John Rambo in the upcoming "Rambo IV," said Ben Nedivi of Millennium Films, which is producing the project. (not kidding)

It will be called, Rambo vs Rocky. Wes Anderson will direct. (kidding)

2005-10-28 16:50:34
330.   jasonungar05
I think this whole off season depends on the Bradley situation....
2005-10-28 16:54:03
331.   Jon Weisman
330 - Why?
2005-10-28 16:55:28
332.   blue22
327 - I'd say that Drew is the most overpaid, though you could argue that he is the most productive player in the bunch.

Gagne would be the most overpaid, if he wasn't such a major factor in off-field promotions and marketing. He more than justifies his salary in attendance and T-Shirts alone.

Kent will still be a bargain, though it is to be seen how much his production and defense slips as he creeps ever closer to retirement.

Bradley is a wild card because of his health, temperment, and even production when healthy. It really seems that he should be putting up better numbers at this point in his career, but at a couple million bucks you really can't complain too much about his on-field work.

2005-10-28 16:56:47
333.   blue22
330 - I'd say only the decision to resign Jose Cruz Jr depends on Bradley.

They still need a big bat in that lineup, even if Bradley stays, IMO.

2005-10-28 16:57:41
334.   blue22
332/333 - I'd say that "I'd say" is a very boring way to start a post. I shall make a point of knocking that off.
2005-10-28 16:57:53
335.   Uncle Miltie
328- Gagne has a player option. He won't pick it up unless he 1) Gets injured again this year 2) Has a poor year in 2006
2005-10-28 16:58:20
336.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
"I'm so tired of hearing about how pitching and defense are the Dodger way."

Amen, brother. Unfortunately, this World Series will be used to prop up that fallacy. Most won't remember that, despite a great pitching staff, it was Houston's utter failure on offense that led to the sweep. How many times would ONE LOUSY HIT have won the game for them?

Sheehan on BP noted that they ended the series with a 0 for 30 streak with RISP. Could that be because they were too busy emphasizing pitching and defense?

I know, I know, it was CHICAGO'S pitching and defense that ruled the day. But I think a team with a better balance of scoring and run prevention would have beat them. That theory didn't get tested this post-season.

2005-10-28 16:59:33
337.   blue22
Gagne signed for 2 years, with an option for 3? I thought it was just the two year deal. What's the option worth, both exercised and bought out?
2005-10-28 17:06:51
338.   King of the Hobos
335 Looking at his contract...technically, no he doesn't. There's a team option for $12 mil, but he can void it if he wishes, after it's been picked up. Essentially it's mutual option, but Gagne has no say until the Dodgers pick up the option. He also has a smaller buyout if he voids it, thanks to missing time this year, although that's not really important

Technicalities aside, he's probably gone. I hereby alter my statement 328 regarding Gagne. If only Boras didn't exist...

2005-10-28 17:08:20
339.   King of the Hobos
337 It's a $12 mil option or a $1 mil buyout. If Gagne voids the option, it's a $625K option. If he finishes under 50 games, it's reduced to $250K
2005-10-28 17:08:48
340.   King of the Hobos
339 $625K buyout
2005-10-28 17:13:57
341.   Uncle Miltie
So basically, the Dodgers will pick up the option, but Gagne will likely void it unless he
1) Gets injured again this year
2) Has a poor year in 2006
2005-10-28 17:19:00
342.   King of the Hobos
341 Yes. DePo and Boras get quite creative together. Makes you wonder what Hochevar's contract will (would) look like
2005-10-28 17:22:09
343.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
I would think Gagne would have to be pretty much lights out again if he wants to get more than $12 mil. How many closers get that kind of money? Billy Wagner, who's no slouch, just got offered $8 mil per year. (Of course, he turned it down.)
2005-10-28 17:23:23
344.   King of the Hobos
Citizens Bank Park will have its fences pushed back. No specifics yet
2005-10-28 17:24:10
345.   dzzrtRatt
I know what the players want. Gagne and Kent want the Dodgers to stock up on enough hot players to be next season's curse-busters. Gagne wants to pump his fist and have Dioner Navarro leap into his waiting arms after striking out the last batter in the WS. They want Adam Dunn or Brian Giles. They want Bradley to stay. They want a legitimate #1 starting pitcher. They want a bench full of Ledee/Cruz type vets. They want to win it all next season. They want to shut up the LA Times, put Joe Morgan in a coma, make USA Today Sports Weekly their b+++h. They're sick of losing. They want McCourt to spend $100 million to win now, do it right in '06, and then they'll all move along and make way for the Suns.
2005-10-28 17:28:20
346.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
There's been a lot of talk about how McCourt didn't keep his promise of a $100-million payroll, but does anyone else think DePo was keeping that last 10 mil in reserve for an trade-deadline deal? That has been my assumption all along, and I think he just decided that he didn't want to mortgage the future for a team barely playing .500 ball.
2005-10-28 17:33:34
347.   dzzrtRatt
346 Yes. I'm no conspiracy theorist. I think DePo had $100 million to spend if there was something to spend it on.
2005-10-28 17:52:33
348.   Brent is a Dodger Fan
346,347 I echo this: it isn't like a high-end audio store where you can just go in and say, "please, sir, I have $X thousands of dollars to spend on a new home theater system, so do be a good chap and help me spend every last penny of it!"

Sounds like, at the trading deadline, having the extra money was only one ingredient: you also needed to have there be a team with expensive, expiring talent, and you needed to be willing to part with some of your youth movement to make a trade. Did Cincy dump? No: they wanted more in return.

2005-10-28 17:54:44
349.   molokai
I guess my point was that if the Dodgers don't have one of the greatest drafts in baseball history in 1968 they don't much to crow about for the last 40 years. The Dodger legacy is 25 years old and is really not that impressive so when writers like Plaschke throw out the "Dodger Way" it just makes me bonkers. That draft more then anything else since Sandy Koufax has stamped the Los Angeles Dodgers. It has been 24 years since that group was disbanded and we have one fluky championship? All of our Dodger worship comes from players that have not played a major part in our history in almost a quarter of a century. 1988 is now 17 years old. I don't need a World Series every year, but when you go 59/63/65/66/74/77/78/81/88 - once in 24 years feels like forever. I know this is pointless so no one needs to ask what is the point.

Just an FYI for the kids:

January 27, 1968

Drafted Davey Lopes in the 2nd round of the 1968 amateur draft (Secondary Phase).

Drafted Geoff Zahn in the 5th round of the 1968 amateur draft (Secondary Phase).

June 7, 1968
Drafted Bobby Valentine in the 1st round (5th pick) of the 1968 amateur draft.

Drafted Steve Garvey in the 1st round (13th pick) of the 1968 amateur draft (Secondary Phase).

Drafted Bill Buckner in the 2nd round of the 1968 amateur draft.

Drafted Sandy Vance in the 2nd round of the 1968 amateur draft (Secondary Phase).

Drafted Ron Cey in the 3rd round of the 1968 amateur draft (Secondary Phase).

Drafted Tom Paciorek in the 5th round of the 1968 amateur draft.

Drafted Joe Ferguson in the 8th round of the 1968 amateur draft.

Drafted Doyle Alexander in the 9th round of the 1968 amateur draft.

2005-10-28 18:33:49
350.   fanerman
349 - As a kid, I must say, wow, that is one magical draft.
Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2005-10-28 18:58:13
351.   King of the Hobos
The Red Sox have re-signed Mike Timlin pending a physical. He may have been able to get a nice contract from another team, but at his age it would be one year regardless, and the Red Sox may hand him the most money

In other news, Burnitz is now a FA thanks to his mutual option being declined. Not that I want him back with the Dodgers or anything though...

2005-10-28 19:27:49
352.   popup
The Dodgers have put together some pretty good homegrown talent since that 68 draft. Ramon and Pedro were top shelf prospects. Piazza was a fluke because he was drafted as a favor to LaSorda, but there is no denying he was a top tier. Mondesi was a very good prospect as well. Some of players I saw in the minors looked really good but for whatever reason did not turn into outstanding major league players: Candy Maldonado, Roger Cedeno, Greg Brock, Mike Marshall. The past ten years or so have been pretty bad, but I hope that the tide has turned and that the Dodgers will bring along young talent and get it to the major leagues.

I am a proponent of building a team through pitching and defense, but I don't say it is a guaranteed blueprint for success. I do think that game in and game out it gives you an opportunity to win. I don't have the stats to back this up, but after watching a lot of baseball over the years, it seems to me that teams that rely on pitching and defense have a narrower run differencial in games that are lost than do teams that rely on slugging.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-10-28 19:59:45
353.   Steve
Who's against pitching?
2005-10-28 20:45:02
354.   trainwreck
According to Dodgers homepage Collins, Hershisher, and Trammel are the finalists for being manager. We should hire Lovullo as bench coach.
2005-10-28 21:13:21
355.   Xeifrank
If that's the case, then let me be the first person to congratulate Mr Collins.
Has Steve reserved Fire[Manager's Name Here].Com yet? :) vr, Xei
2005-10-28 21:52:14
356.   Steve
I'm working on FJT: The Official Biography.
2005-10-28 22:16:19
357.   King of the Hobos
Charley Rosen from has determined that the heart in Heart and Soul is not needed in the NBA. Rather, it is Grit and Soul, as apparently Bob Sura showcases
2005-10-29 01:17:20
358.   Louis in SF
For those of you still up at 1:15am on the West Coast LAT is running a story that DePodesta will be fired this weekend. While many may dislike the paper Steve Henson seems to make it sound pretty convincing. The meeting with Collins was also postponed. If there is ever a time where some on this site have some good well placed Dodger sources this would be the time to come forward....
2005-10-29 01:33:35
359.   Louis in SF
Daily News is running almost the same story. So either that high placed Dodger source is pulling the wool over both major LA Papers, or sadly as some have feared from so many different points on the spectrum-Jim Tracy may have been the least of the Dodger problems and it is the owner we need to worry about. Sadly those comments of a few days ago comparing the Dodgers current ownership to the Georgia Fronterier ownership of the Rams before they left for St. Louis maybe closer to the truth than we all thought....Jon wake-up and help us figure this out.
2005-10-29 09:48:45
360.   DXMachina
Weird that it would only come up now. I wonder if DePo wants Collins as his manager, but McCourt wants Hershiser. I can't think of anything else that could set this situation off at this particular moment.
2005-10-29 09:49:48
361.   underdog
I woke up to see the LAT story, too. Unless McCourt has something up his sleeve that we're currently in the dark about, this would be so embarassing. You'd think they'd have a better understanding of PR, for one thing, and this would be bad PR, a sign the franchise is basically in disarray, instead of how it appeared, which was, franchise with a bad season behind it, looking for a manager to get the team back on the winning track. I don't understand this at all - we were supposed to believe in DePo's system for another year at least, to give him time after his first full year was a mess caused by mostly injuries and, arguably, a mediocre manager that he hadn't hired.

Now what are we supposed to believe?

Maybe he's going to hire Collins as GM and Hershiser as manager?

Well, if he does fire DePo he could solve some of the PR chaos by hiring Kim Ng to replace him. Or, uh, Theo Epstein (won't happen). Otherwise, this is a serious mistake. I'll keep my eyes and ears on it...

2005-10-29 09:55:08
362.   SMY
Despite the LA media's lack of objectivity, I don't think they'd report a story like this if it wasn't true. My best guess is McCourt wants to try and lure Theo away (he won't). Or worse yet, he makes Tommy GM.

But I think we can all agree that McCourt is a #### idiot. What an embarrassment.

2005-10-29 10:19:11
363.   Telemachos
Time for Steve to start up

I'm utterly disgusted and disappointed. If true, this is a truly moronic move, on practically every level. It shows that McCourt wildly over-reacts based on public opinion, it shows there's no job stability at all (why would anyone want to want into this hornet's nest now?), and it shows a complete misunderstanding of baseball -- why would you fire your GM after a year-and-a-half?

Why bother to have this manager search before the firing?

I have this hideous suspicion that McCourt is going to try to placate the masses by bringing back Lasorda as GM and Hershiser as manager, but I hope I'm wrong.

2005-10-29 10:19:33
364.   Kayaker7
I'm trying to find ways to not believe the story, but I can't imagine such big story not being true. I'm mostly accepting that it will happen, while wishing it wouldn't. If it does happen, I will not attend another Dodger game, nor watch it on TV, as long as McCourt is the owner. Words can't describe what an idiot he is. Also, I'm really beginning to get upset that Lasorda is still involved with the Dodgers at the highest level. He needs to be just a mascot and a PR man, not a top level decision maker. This truely sucks.
2005-10-29 10:26:30
365.   werthgagne31
This is rediculous, i knew i didn't like mccourt, i had a bad feeling about him since day 1.
I'm all for sabermetrics but not for a low payroll.
i've complained about tracy's old fashioned managing and about low payroll.
depodesta was the only good thing out of the 3 highest positions (owner,gm,manager) and he might get fired, what a joke.
2005-10-29 10:26:59
366.   Humma Kavula
I'm not ready to go as far as Kayaker -- I'm still going to renew my season tickets, because I want to watch live major league baseball and I don't want to drive to Anaheim -- but I agree that at best this is foolish and at worst it's a disaster for the franchise.

I am sad that DePodesta is gone. All depends on what his successor does. DePodesta protected the uberprospects at all costs, and I think it ultimately cost him his job. The next GM will probably have a mandate to trade some or -- gasp -- all of them. All we can do is wait and see how much of the future is mortgaged for 2006.

2005-10-29 10:27:53
367.   the OZ
Hooray! We're the Mets!
2005-10-29 10:28:53
368.   Humma Kavula
367 I wasn't going to say it, but I'm glad you did.
2005-10-29 10:37:19
369.   dzzrtRatt
What a time for DT to have a blackout!

For two years, Dodger fans have talked to each other over a series of fault lines: Pro JT/Anti JT...Pro DePo/Anti DePo... Cora vs. Kent...Beltre vs. Somebody cheaper...Heart and Soul vs. Provable Performance.

But if Frank McCourt in fact does fire DePo, as I would agree appears 99.99 percent likely, all these factions will unite. Because I don't care how much disdain you might've had for DePodesta, firing him in the middle of the managerial search, just days before free agents start to arrive on the market, makes the McCourts look simply incompetent.

Just compare the McCourt quotes from October 6, cited in Henson's story, with what apparently will happen now. What kind of chief executive says 'we're committed to a plan,' and then three weeks later, pulls the plug? An unsuccessful chief executive, that's who.

Camille Johnson, you can put as much perfume on this pig as you've got, but you will not save the McCourts from becoming the most hated owners in LA sports history (and that's saying something.) I can live without DePodesta. What I can't stand is squirmy, reactive, insecure, p=== your pants leadership, and that's what McCourt represents.

2005-10-29 12:00:19
370.   Tommy Naccarato
I was the one that made the comparison after talking to a well-placed source, and I don't think I met much favor here because of it--it did go overboard a bit with the fun and joking in suggesting moving the team to Portland, but the fact remains--the McCourts are out of control and I do think DePodesta was way in deep over his head.

Get ready for some dark years ahead. It isn't going to get better. Still, I'm a Dodger fan. Always have been and always will be. I just won't spend any money on the product.

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