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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
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7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
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12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Hearts on Fire
2005-11-21 08:57
by Jon Weisman

Must be nice not to have any heart and soul on your team, so you can't get blasted by the media for trading your heart and soul - no matter how many players you threaten to get rid of.

Yes, baseball's favorite loading and unloading zone, the Florida Marlins, are at it again, and they are leaving a great deal of baggage unattended. As Bryan Smith at Baseball Analysts notes, this includes former Dodgers Paul Lo Duca and Guillermo Mota, who are on the very crowded trading block. (The other ex-Dodger from The Trade, Juan Encarnacion, is a free agent not expected to re-sign with the team.)

Lo Duca is a candidate to be headed to, of all places, Queens, where he would replace Mike Piazza as the Mets' starting catcher. Ten months ago, Lo Duca signed a three-year contract with Florida, yielding this quote in The Associated Press:

"When Jeffrey Loria said publicly not too long after we acquired Paul that he was not a summer rental, he meant it," said Marlins general manager Larry Beinfest, referring to the team's owner.

But times are tough again in Florida, which ranked 28th in attendance last year and where payroll might be cut to as low as $40 million, according to an unsourced report in the Palm Beach Post. And when times get tough, heart and soul becomes a luxury - even when it's heart and soul that hits .283.

Oh, but Dontrelle's true heart and soul of the Marlins, you say? Let's check back in a couple of years and see if Florida is still feeling Willis through and through.

Comments (257)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2005-11-21 09:25:22
1.   molokai
And we complain if McCourt drops the payroll to 75 million. How would you like to be a Marlin fan?
2005-11-21 09:40:05
2.   LAT
At least the Marlins have won a couple of WS in the last few years. I wouldn't be happy about this move but hey, at least there were some recent good times. Can we Dodger fans say the same?
2005-11-21 09:41:52
3.   Humma Kavula
1 With 2 WS wins and 2 fire sales in the last decade, I believe I would feel manic-depressive.
2005-11-21 09:41:53
4.   jasonungar05
No, we can't. It's so crazy to think the Fish have won more championships since 1988 than the Dodgers or the Braves and of course the Giants.
2005-11-21 09:50:42
5.   Bob Timmermann
Since 1988, the Marlins have won more World Series than any team except the Yankees and Blue Jays.
2005-11-21 09:52:12
6.   Bob Timmermann
Ned Colletti got the worst endorsement possible. Bruce Jenkins of the SF Chronicle likes him:

"Ned Colletti is a Chicago guy who once had his dream job, working for the Chicago Cubs, and he's a man of great ambition. This isn't as shocking as Juan Marichal pitching for the Dodgers or Duke Snider winding up with the Giants, nor does Colletti's move harbor any elements of betrayal ... Some people in L.A. have expressed concern that Colletti was never a scout, but take our word for it: He sees the game as well as anybody. And that's the key: He sees it. He'll take statistics into account, but Colletti is the kind of guy whose first impression of a prospect might be, "There goes a ballplayer" -- and he'll be right. "To me," he says, "how a player approaches the game, how he approaches life, far outweighs what the stat line looks like." For Dodger fans weary of Paul DePodesta's computer-generated philosophies, there is palpable relief ... Along those lines, such mercurial talents as Juan Pierre and Carl Crawford are reportedly available in trade. The "Moneyball" guys can forget them. Way too fast and disruptive. Too much imagination. Too much of a threat to manufacture runs ..."


2005-11-21 09:56:09
7.   fanerman
Is bruce jenkins the Bay-area more-than-1-sentence-paragraph of bill plaschke?
2005-11-21 09:56:30
8.   jasonungar05
wow, the Jays huh.
2005-11-21 09:57:00
9.   Humma Kavula
Do moneyball guys really hate Carl Crawford?
2005-11-21 10:05:48
10.   Bob Timmermann
I approach life the right way. However, I think I would be a bad major league baseball player. Or a bad minor league baseball player. I doubt I could hit a pitch from the LLWS champions.

As for Carl Crawford, I know the Yankees were interested in him. His home run totals have been increasing each year. He hit 15 last year and he's just 23 years old.

Juan Pierre is the iron pyrite of center fielders.

2005-11-21 10:10:37
11.   Vishal
that's quite a pipeline we're sending to the mets via florida.

will we see russ martin catching at shea circa 2011?

2005-11-21 10:13:42
12.   Humma Kavula
Crawford also had 194 hits and stole 46 bases at an 85% clip. Do I wish he would walk more? Uh huh. Would he help the Dodgers? Uh huh.

Here's Sickels:

Sickels puts his finger on it: Crawford is an organization's dream about how a "tools" player pans out. When these players do develop, they become good, even great players. If I understand correctly, this type of player does not pan out as often as one who practices plate discipline.

2005-11-21 10:15:48
13.   Bob Timmermann
Since the Dodgers last won the World Series, the only NL teams to win it have been Cincinnati, Atlanta, Arizona, and Florida twice.

The NL is trending downward recently.

2005-11-21 10:16:42
14.   Bob Timmermann
Carl Crawford is what Jason Repko would be if he was good.
2005-11-21 10:16:50
15.   Vishal
i'm ok with carl crawford. he doesn't have that much plate discipline but i could live with him playing average defense, batting 2nd and hitting .300, and stealing 50 bases with an 85% success rate, along with 15-20 homers.
2005-11-21 10:24:36
16.   dzzrtRatt
I never found an answer to what happened to the Dodgers' alleged approach to Larry Beinfest. Did he forget to tell McCourt his entire life story? Because it sure seemed like he was interested--especially since he must've seen the Marlins' dismantling coming.
2005-11-21 10:27:01
17.   Bob Timmermann
I believe Loria didn't give the Dodgers permission to interview Beinfest. They need him to sell off players.
2005-11-21 10:40:55
18.   Humma Kavula
15 I could live with it, too, because a player who performs at that level for enough years is a Hall of Famer.

Look, I'm not the world's biggest Carl Crawford fan, so I can't believe I'm harping on this... but I hate it when good players are lumped in with bad ones so that bad writers can attack strawmen. Burns me up.

2005-11-21 10:42:50
19.   dzzrtRatt
Is Loria playing games to get a different vote out of the state legislature on the stadium he wants to build? Is he hoping the elected officials think LoDuca is the heart and soul of all of Florida?
2005-11-21 10:44:55
20.   Jon Weisman
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this writer has obliquely cited Dodger Thoughts as an example of what's wrong with the world.

2005-11-21 10:45:42
21.   dzzrtRatt
I'd love to have Carl Crawford too, but Bruce Jenkins should've done what I did and googled Crawford's name before suggesting he's available.

It took me 5 seconds. But maybe Jenkins is another guy who refuses on principle to use a computer.

2005-11-21 10:50:19
22.   Purple Hippopotamus

What's the best book on the Dodgers? I need to pad my amazon wishlist.

2005-11-21 10:50:33
23.   dzzrtRatt
20 How does this weeney know for sure that none of those 842 posts were written by someone who drives a hybrid or has a solar panel on their roof? For a guy who equates watching a George Clooney movie with saving the planet, he's got a lot of nerve using DT as his example of societal rot.
2005-11-21 10:54:26
24.   Jon Weisman
23 - I didn't mean for it to be taken too seriously - it made me laugh.
2005-11-21 11:01:35
25.   dzzrtRatt
I thought it was extremely funny. His point seemed to be to contrast this site with people who are really doing something important--like, uh, making a movie.

But I take back "weeney." His site is thoughtfully put together. Maybe he's jealous-not too many of his posts get any comments.

2005-11-21 11:07:16
26.   FirstMohican
23 - Because I posted every single of the 842 posts while pouring Chevron with Techron down the storm drain.
2005-11-21 11:11:06
27.   Mark
I own a hybrid, and I am not a moneyball fanatic. Alas, I am an aberration of nature.
2005-11-21 11:15:08
28.   LAT
23. We do know that some of those posts were made by a guy with a hybrid. right Bob?

Not sure why any of this would come as a suprise to that guy. Do more people read People magazine or Scientic American? Do more people eat at MCDonalds or cook fresh food. Do more people watch Arrested Development or Nightline? (Just kidding on that last one :)

People want to be entertained whether its Movies or baseball. This isn't exactly news.

2005-11-21 11:16:00
29.   Uncle Miltie
"i'm ok with carl crawford. he doesn't have that much plate discipline but i could live with him playing average defense, batting 2nd and hitting .300, and stealing 50 bases with an 85% success rate, along with 15-20 homers."
Have you watched Crawford play? He's an excellent defender.
From Baseball Prospectus
They talk about how little he walks and then go on to say:
"Still he is a terrific player to have, as his bat continues to improve, his defense remains top-notch, and his legs will continue to bedevil opposing pitchers, catchers, and outfielders.
Here are his defensive ratings:
2002: +4
2003: +11
2004: +7

As you can probably tell, I'm a huge Carl Crawford fan. The Devil Rays aren't going to trade him unless they get a young superstar in return.

2005-11-21 11:19:09
30.   Sam DC
22 I'm not Bob,and I'm not exactly answering your question, but a long while back we had a lengthy discussion of baseball books. While it probably speaks quite poorly of me, at the time I made a list of all the books mentioned in the thread. Here it is. The thread itself desrcibes which were liked or disliked, etc.

Baseball books recommended or mentioned by Dodger Thoughts readers (April 21, 2005)
note -- some of these were liked, some were loathed, search the April 21 game thread for more info

Voices of the Game
Boys of Summer
I Never Had it Made
Sandy Koufax: A Lefty's Legacy
Baseball Before We Knew It
National Pastime: How Americans Play Baseball and the Rest of the World Plays Soccer
Game Time
The Last Great Season
Rampersand's Jackie Robinson: A Biography
A Whole Different Ball Game
Stolen Season
Willie's Time (warning Giants-related)
Nice Guys Finish Last
Nine Innings
The Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract
The Great American Novel
The Natural
True Blue
The Glory of Their Times
My 30 Years in Dodger Blue
Prophet of the Sandlots (spoiler alert -- if you read the thread on this there's a surprise ending giveaway)

2005-11-21 11:21:19
31.   D4P
Correct me if I'm wrong, but replacing Milton Bradley with Carl Everett would seemingly not make sense from either a stats or a "character" perspective.
2005-11-21 11:24:41
32.   Bob Timmermann
If you want an overall history of the Dodgers, Glenn Stout's book "The Dodgers: 120 years of of Dodger baseball" is about the only comprehensive history of the team.

Of individual biographies, I liked Jane Leavy's bio of Koufax.

"The Dodgers Move West" by Neil Sullivan is pretty good as well as "The Last Good Season" by Michael Shapiro.

I would stay away from the works of Roger Kahn. I think they are overly sentimentalized looks back at the Brooklyn teams that have created the myth that all the people in Brooklyn were wonderful creatures who loved the Dodgers and that Walter O'Malley really had a tail and owned a pitchfork.

Anything by Mark Langill is usually pretty interesting too.

2005-11-21 11:25:28
33.   Jon Weisman
22, 30 - Don't spend all your book money yet. I hope to announce an addition to the list next week.
[/end tease]
2005-11-21 11:29:40
34.   dzzrtRatt
31 Carl...Crawford.
2005-11-21 11:31:59
35.   D4P
Ummm...whoops...It's my first day with the new eyes.
2005-11-21 11:32:23
36.   Purple Hippopotamus
Thanks, Sam and Bob. From a quick Amazon search, Roger Kahn looks like the John Updike of baseball non-fiction: prolific and totally worthless.
2005-11-21 11:36:13
37.   Jon Weisman
36 - I thought Boys of Summer was fine, but putting down Updike like that, man. I can't take that.

My favorite novel: "Rabbit, Run."

My two favorite short stories: "Babylon Revisited" (Fitzgerald) and "The Happiest I've Been" (Updike)

2005-11-21 11:38:44
38.   Bob Timmermann
Rejected titles for Roger Kahn's books:

How Gil Hodges Saved the World

Walter O'Malley and his Anti-Semitic Dismantling of the Dodgers

The Borough That Loved The Greatest Team

Life Ends at the Eastern Terminus of Roebling's Bridge

2005-11-21 11:40:52
39.   Sam DC
On books, and leaving 33 right where it sits without further comment, I really enjoyed reading A Whole Different Ballgame -- the autobiography of the great baseball labor leader Marvin Miller. Although the book is hugely self-congratulating on Miller's part, it makes a fun and info packed rad about a pretty amazing slice of modern baseball history.
2005-11-21 11:46:46
40.   Penarol1916
Personally, I'm a big fan of the works of Andrew Zimbalist, but then again, I'm an economist.
2005-11-21 11:53:10
41.   Eric L
39 More on books..

A baseball book list isn't complete (at least in my opinion) if it doesn't have "Lords of the Realm" on it. It gives you wonderful insight on the labor struggle and the power structure in baseball (ie, Walter O'Malley and his cronies being the real power in baseball).

I also have "The Pitch that Killed" but I haven't motivated myself to read it yet. The last baseball book I read was "Weaver on Strategy" which gives a bit of insight to the "bunts are bad" type of strategy.

2005-11-21 11:53:29
42.   scareduck
20 - 842 comments about the Dodgers in one day? Frank would be disappointed...
2005-11-21 11:55:49
43.   scareduck
33 - Jon W., published baseball author? In book form? Bestill my beating heart!
2005-11-21 11:56:02
44.   Bob Timmermann
I did not buy my hybrid until the Dodgers season was over. I bought the day of the 18-inning Braves-Astros game. I left in the 9th inning to go buy it. When I got home after buying it, the game was still going on. And it wasn't like they just handed me the keys, took a check and kicked me out the door.
2005-11-21 12:12:56
45.   Linkmeister
30 Sam, keeping book lists is a sign of a higher intelligence. If it weren't, Library Thing wouldn't be gaining users by leaps and bounds.

Alas, I'm falling down the list of largest libraries as fast as Joe Thibodeaux's career did.

2005-11-21 12:15:11
46.   gcrl
"the glory of their times" is awesome. i got that book about 25 years ago, and i still love to leaf through it.

the last bb book i read was "ball four", about 3 years ago. i read it for the first time, and liked it more than i expected to. smoke 'em inside!

i also enjoyed george will's "bunts" - a series of short essays, which featured brett butler on the cover, probably because it was a mindless read. my fave piece from that book was one on pete rose that retold the story of turbulence on the reds plane causing pete to say to the teammate next to him: "we're going down, but at least i have a lifetime .300 average. what do you have?" classic.

2005-11-21 12:15:54
47.   Bob Timmermann
Don't you mean Joe Charbonneau?
2005-11-21 12:18:57
48.   Peanuts in My Shoes
Any nominations?

"You are invited to help select a former Dodger player to the 2005 edition of the Dodger Fans Hall of Fame."

2005-11-21 12:24:27
49.   molokai
Does "Ball Four" still resonant? Haven't read it in 30 some odd years but I don't remember a funnier baseball book.

The Leahy bio for Sandy is one of my current favorites. Willie's Time is a great book if you want learn about the era and baseball. The Giants never beat the Dodgers other then the beginning and 62 so the pain is bearable for Dodger fans.

The Bill James abstracts are a must read for any serious fan. JMO

2005-11-21 12:29:23
50.   LAT
45. That's pretty cool. Although we have probably lost Bob for a few hours while he wanders around the site. On the other hand, he has probably already seen it.

My favorite line from the site: "And if the buzz page doesn't convince you, you cannot be convinced. Go away."

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2005-11-21 12:31:56
51.   molokai
Speaking of Willie Mays here is my favorite baseball bar bet. Shockingly I've been able to win this bet for 27 years even though you'd think back in the early 80's it would have been harder. In 1965 Willie Mays hit 52 home runs to lead the NL in home runs. The AL champion only hit 32 and was the same age as the difference between the NL champion number of home runs and his own. Who am I?

For fun, just guess, don't use the internet for research.

Bob, you probably know this but can you take your time before answering. Thanks

2005-11-21 12:32:56
52.   dzzrtRatt
My guess: Tony Oliva.
2005-11-21 12:34:22
53.   Steve
Juan Pierre is garbage. Carl Crawford, whatever your opinion of him, is Willie Mays compared to Juan Pierre. Juan Pierre, I'm pretty sure, translates to Jason Repko in English.
2005-11-21 12:35:31
54.   LAT
just guessing, not even sure the timing is right: Yaz?
2005-11-21 12:36:15
55.   Bob Timmermann reminds me way too much of work.

I just buy books and shove them into an open spot on the shelf. If I'm out of room, I throw something away.

I try to make my home not be like work.

If you came to my home now, you would find LPs all over the floor as I spent much of my Sunday figuring out how to transfer them to my computer.
That was a lot more involved than I thought it would be.

2005-11-21 12:44:26
56.   D4P
What's next on your list? Transferring the 8-tracks to cassette?
2005-11-21 12:44:34
57.   Purple Hippopotamus
Hahaha. Sorry to rag on Updike, John, but his voice is so consistent and drab (his voice IS drab!) that his stories are practically indistinguishable from one another. Rabbit's experiences in "Rabbit, Run" are what make that novel work--not the language. There's a fine line between story and voice--you know that!
2005-11-21 12:48:21
58.   mob
How does anyone feel about Jim Fregosi? If you grew up in L.A. then you should be a fan from his Angel days but he has never been very successful as a manager. Still perhaps age & his hiatus have made him better.
2005-11-21 12:49:12
59.   D4P
I seem to remember that he chewed a lot.
2005-11-21 12:49:15
60.   Bob Timmermann
I actually spent about four hours and I succeeded in getting one LP copied.

Some of us are old enough that we actually bought LPs. And listened to music that had cracks and pops in it. And we liked it that way!

I have some cassettes too that I need to transfer. That may be easier to do since my tape player can move around more easily than the turntable.

Basically, I want to jettison the turntable and the LPs and free up some space.

2005-11-21 12:52:14
61.   D4P

And we liked it that way! Thank you grumpy old man.

I am old enough to have purchased LPs. I also bought quite a few 45s in the mid-late 80s. I must admit, however, that I never attempted to transfer them to my computer.

2005-11-21 12:52:40
62.   mob

My kids are 17 & 14 and my wife is getting me a DVD recorder for Xmas so I can take the 300+
video tapes of our family and transfer them to DVD!!!! I soon will feel your pain!

2005-11-21 12:57:35
63.   MikeB
51. Tony Conigliaro???
2005-11-21 13:00:18
64.   Linkmeister
I probably do mean Charbonneau. I was struggling to find a one-hit-wonder (to borrow from pop music criticism), and Thibodeaux sounded right.

I have roughly ~300 of those vinyl things, and one of those new combo cd/turntable-in-a-box thingies. I hooked up my old 80-watt speakers to it, and it works fine; all the crackles and pops are amplified!

2005-11-21 13:00:49
65.   Woody
I'm currently reading "Praying for Gil Hodges: a Memoir of the 1955 World Series and One Family's Love of the Brooklyn Dodgers" by Thomas Oliphant. Probably a little too sentimenal for non-Brooklyn fans, but interesting from the standpoint that the writer was a 9 year old kid at the time, and a fanatical Dodger fan who was surrounded by Yankee fans since he lived in Manhattan. There is a lot of discussion about Jackie Robinson and baseball's desegregation and how that made those Dodgers "America's Team".

Oliphant is a Pulitzer Prize winning political correspondent who writes for "The Boston Globe". You have to like the guy because there's a picture on the book jacket of him as an adult in his Brooklyn jersey and cap. He's got his baseball glove, and looks like he's ready to go to a game to catch a foul ball with his dad.

2005-11-21 13:01:02
66.   Baseballistic Ben
The Red Sox are supposedly shopping Hanley Ramirez, the jewel of their system, and a "grade A" pitching prospect for Beckett. Is this what's going to happen to the Dodgers? SABR-GM exit = prospect fire sale?
2005-11-21 13:02:49
67.   Johnson

Nice try, MikeB, but the answer is Molokai. At least, it is if I read it correctly as one of those "Who is the bus driver?" trick questions.

2005-11-21 13:04:08
68.   Linkmeister
I have a copy of Doris Kearns Goodwin's "Wait Till Next Year," her memoir of growing up with the Brooklyn Dodgers. It's evocative of the time, as you might expect from a professional historian.
2005-11-21 13:04:46
69.   student of the game
I haven't seen this posted yet, Jason Stark is reporting that the Dodgers are the "mystery (third) team" involved in the Beckett sweepstakes.

2005-11-21 13:07:45
70.   Colorado Blue
66 - Ben: Yes... ESPN is reporting a "mystery team" in the Beckett-Lowell sweepstakes. The mystery team is purportedly the Dodgers:

No officials involved in the talks would confirm the identity of the mystery team. But an executive of another club said Monday he believes that other team to be the Dodgers.

The Marlins, the executive said, extensively scouted the Dodgers' double-A team in Jacksonville -- and Florida is said to like a number of that team's best pitchers. That group of pitchers includes former No. 1 picks Chad Billingsley and Justin Orenduff, as well as 240-pound smokeballer Jonathon Broxton. Because of their vacancy at shortstop, the Marlins also would be likely to have interest in the Dodgers' much-hyped double-A shortstop, Joel Guzman.

Is Colletti drooling, all starry-eyed? Let's hope the Dodger GM collective evaluates any deal very carefully.

2005-11-21 13:10:47
71.   regfairfield
Does anyone want to add an injury prone number two starter to our injury prone number one and three starters?
2005-11-21 13:12:18
72.   mob

Well the answer to the question "Who am I?" is indeed Molokai but the answer to the implied question "who won the AL home run title at age 20 with a total of 32 in 1965?" is Tony C of the Red Sox good job Mike B

2005-11-21 13:14:35
73.   Michael Green
While getting some great players FROM the Marlins would be nice, let's just remember a couple of things:

1. The Dodgers have not exactly made successful trades with the Marlins.

2. The last time Lasorda was general manager--oops, there's my cynical side--he gave up Konerko for Jeff Shaw without knowing he had an escape clause in his contract. So I hope Colletti doesn't trade away for the future for the sake of being the anti-DePodesta and making Lasorda happy.

Now to a couple of earlier posts.

Tom Oliphant also is married to Susan Spencer of CBS News. Better still, at least we can be fairly sure that HIS book about being a young Dodgers fan is in his own words. Let's just say that while I admire Doris Kearns Goodwin enormously, I'm a little nervous about whatever she writes!

And I still have lots of LPs! Now if only I could listen to them somewhere ....

2005-11-21 13:14:36
74.   D4P
I hereby forbid the Dodgers from acquiring anymore ex-Marlin pitchers. Kevin Brown and Brad Penny are enough.

BTW: Did anyone know that Kevin Brown's first name is actually James, and that his name is actually James Brown?

2005-11-21 13:16:10
75.   mob

no or at least I don't. Re sign Weaver. while I'm not a big fan of his he eats up innings and with some decent run support could win 15 games next year. NO MORE INJURY PRONE STARTERS!!!

2005-11-21 13:19:44
76.   mob

yes I knew that about Brown. But can you name the fourth Alou brother????? Hint.... he played first base for the Orioles????

2005-11-21 13:19:59
77.   molokai
Yes, very good. Tony C was my 1st hero in baseball.
2005-11-21 13:20:05
78.   JROBB
gotta go for Beckett and Lowell. We gotta remember that they can still sign Hochevar so if they have to they can deal Billingsley and Guzman and E.Jackson. Sounds good to me.
2005-11-21 13:27:12
79.   molokai
Josh Beckett has pitched over 600 innings at the age of 25. To call him injury prone is a misowner. Luckily his blister problems kept the number at 600 instead of 800 because then I wouldn't be very interested.
If Josh Beckett is available the and the Rangers are really offering Blalock and Danks then we can and should do better. Beckett has the upside of a Cy Young pitcher and at 25 will be entering his prime. If we have to take on the Lowell contract so be it. Depo would have been all over the deal and so should Colletti. Other then Billingsly we don't have one pitcher or prospect with the upside of Beckett.
2005-11-21 13:27:32
80.   Penarol1916
78. I think that you just made me throw up in my mouth a little bit, well you and post 73.
2005-11-21 13:33:08
81.   Bob Timmermann
While Ms. Goodwin's book was heart-tugging, I think it was even caught up in some controversy. I think her memories didn't jibe with reality very well.
2005-11-21 13:35:23
82.   dzzrtRatt
If we take Lowell's contract, they don't deserve to ask for Billingsley and Guzman. I think we need to keep Guzman but for Beckett I'd sacrifice Billingsley. But after that, they have to take longer-shot prospects, or maybe someone on the order of Jayson Werth.
2005-11-21 13:36:00
83.   Uncle Miltie
Billingsley better not go anywhere! Guzman is finally breaking out, I thought he was untouchable. As much as I love Broxton, I might be willing to deal him for Beckett, but if we had to take Lowell....
2005-11-21 13:38:37
84.   D4P
Did anyone follow Lowell's 2005 season at all? Why was he so horrible? Was he hurt?
2005-11-21 13:45:16
85.   King of the Hobos
If the 4-headed GM theory is correct, then Billingsley or Guzman aren't going anywhere. And Colletti has made numerous remarks that he'd trade good prospects, but not ones with superstar upside. We'd be taking Lowell from them, he alone removes Billingsley and Guzman from consideration. Remember that Danks, as good as he is, struggled in AA posting a 5.49 ERA in 98.1 innings. I'm not saying he's not good, he's just not Billingsley
2005-11-21 13:45:48
86.   Monterey Chris
This may have been posted yesterday, but just in case it hasn't...Hershiser signed yesterday with the Rangers to be their new Executive Director.

And good news...maybe the Dodgers will be able to afford some free agents after all. They have announced that ticket prices will go up next year. Letters are being sent soon to season ticket holders.

2005-11-21 13:51:55
87.   Humma Kavula
To a certain point, it doesn't matter what Texas would give up to get Beckett. The Dodgers should put together the best offer they can to improve the club...

IMHO, any deal that gives up Billingsley, even for Beckett, has issues. Assuming Weaver doesn't re-sign, there are two holes in the rotation. I'm already pencilling Billingsley in (tho he'll have to earn in the spring)... replace him with Beckett and there are STILL two holes to fill.

Others -- nate? -- who know Billingsley's status/progress better than me are will have a better opinion on the likelihood that he makes the starting rotation.

2005-11-21 13:54:19
88.   LAT
86 Where did you see that about ticket prices? Are they out of thier mind. I am considering giving mine up and they are talking about increases. With the controversy about lowering payroll will people pay more so the McCourt profit margin can go up?
2005-11-21 13:55:00
89.   Sam DC
Pirates acquire Jose Hernandez (I think it's the right Jose Hernandez).

2005-11-21 13:56:33
90.   Monterey Chris

Top of the story is Hershiser...very bottom is about ticket price increase.

2005-11-21 13:57:18
91.   Monterey Chris
How do you do "tinyurl"?
2005-11-21 13:58:58
92.   Sam DC
91 go to and the way forward is plain.
2005-11-21 14:01:44
93.   dzzrtRatt
86 Congratulations to Orel Hershiser for becoming executive director!

My only question: What's an executive director do, on a baseball team?

2005-11-21 14:02:48
94.   Monterey Chris
I have improved the link in 90. This is the story about Hershiser and ticket prices. And now I have joined the 21st Century with my new knowledge of technology.

2005-11-21 14:02:51
95.   Uncle Miltie
89- they acquired Jose Hernandez from the Cubs a couple years ago in the Aramis Ramirez deal. He now plays for the Cleveland Indians.
2005-11-21 14:06:23
96.   King of the Hobos
89 It's just referring to a past trade (Ramirez for Hernandez, Hill, and Bruback). Hill is the one traded. The Padres are doing a great job of creating a mediocre, yet versatile bench
2005-11-21 14:07:10
97.   Sam DC
89 Aaahhh . . . yes . . . . a little knowledge, or a little reading of the thing that I cited myself, goes a long way.

Sorry all for the false alarm.

2005-11-21 14:09:51
98.   Steve
Anything that Beckett adds, Lowell subtracts. Why would you trade anything for that twosome, much less the cream of your farm? Nonsense. Take the money you're going to save not paying for Mike Lowell's great-great-great grandkids and spend it on Hochevar.
2005-11-21 14:10:39
99.   LAT
I am fuming at the prospect of increased ticket prices. After the poor product on the field, the lousy renovations at DS, the joke of an off-season, they have the temerity to raise prices. This is where Frank doesn't get it and why Arte will always be the better owner. Arte would come out and apologize for the recent confusion, promise better and promise not to raise ticket prices. Like Hugh Grant, he would be applauded for his candor.

Everyday brings a new reason to hate the McCourts.

2005-11-21 14:14:52
100.   oldbear
It's be something if this Beckett deal went down, and then the Dodgers traded Bradley to the Yanks for Pavano.

We'd have the Marlins whole 2003 post season rotation.


If those 5 are healthy, and Kent/Drew are still on the team, wow.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2005-11-21 14:17:54
101.   dzzrtRatt
98 Lowell's a wild card, to me. He's only 32. Who knows why he had such a bad season last year? In the right circumstances, it might be worth a try to see what he's got. The right circumstances meaning, giving up value to Florida that assumes what Steve says is true, i.e. the Lowell contract subtracts from Beckett's value, so you're not really even trading for Beckett, you're trading for Beckett-minus.
2005-11-21 14:21:47
102.   Bob Timmermann
The Dodgers would still need to acquire Mark Redman and Dontrelle Willis.
2005-11-21 14:22:42
103.   Steve
This is just another move in the Dodgers' new PR strategy, which is to promote the worst possible option, so that the feeling is relief when they only go after the second worst option. The mere mention of Mike Lowell's name means a Joe Randa signing is probably inevitable.
2005-11-21 14:24:18
104.   regfairfield
101 Even if Lowell were to return to his usual self, how much of a gain is he really?

While is numbers look decent, to me he was always known as the only guy who had worse splits between the first and second half than Lo Duca.

2005-11-21 14:25:11
105.   D4P
Phew. I guess that means they won't be signing Fregosi. Who's second worst on the list?
2005-11-21 14:25:41
106.   King of the Hobos
I can't figure out if I like Lowell enough. He's 32, so not very old. He did hit 36 doubles last year (I know, Dodger Stadium), so he didn't lose all his power. Plus he only struck out 58 times, out of 500 ABs, which means he put the ball in play a lot, just for outs. And he plays good defense, even playing a little 2B for some reason
2005-11-21 14:27:18
107.   Steve
105 -- Wrong. That's what Tony Muser was for.
2005-11-21 14:28:09
108.   oldbear
Maybe we can trade Russ Martin/Orenduff for Josh Beckett straight up?

I'd do that deal. Would any of you?

2005-11-21 14:28:47
109.   natepurcell
damn, looks like the marliins found the jacksonville squad.

well next week im going to kidnap all of them. take them to safe house in the montana wilderness and then release them once ST starts...

whos with me? its the only way to preserve the future.

2005-11-21 14:29:49
110.   King of the Hobos
104 Maybe he thought there were 2 second halves last years, as that's what his stats reflect. We get him, he remembers there's a 1st half of the season, and we get rid of his contract to get something useful, sounds good to me
2005-11-21 14:30:43
111.   Uncle Miltie
McCourt and Colletti care about character, yet they are interested in a cry baby like Josh Beckett? The guy is 25 years old and he's already a prima donna.
2005-11-21 14:31:47
112.   King of the Hobos
109 Can you just let Sergio Garcia and Richard Bartlett stay? Maybe the Marlins will forget their age, and playing ability, and think they're top prospects
2005-11-21 14:32:26
113.   LAT
103. Not sure I agree Steve, the Dodger MO is promote a bad decision and then go with a worse one. Examples:

GM: Promote Ng.
Get Ned.

Manager: Promote Oral.
Likely get Fergosi.

DS: Promote better seating.
Get worse seating for more money.

PR: Promote "Dodger Values."
Get a souless owner.

2005-11-21 14:32:28
114.   Uncle Miltie
109- why don't you just kidnap Colletti? It would be a lot easy than having to track Loney, Guzman, Martin, Billingsley, LaRoche, and Broxton
2005-11-21 14:32:43
115.   oldbear
104. That gain isnt in Lowell. Its in getting Josh Beckett. I dont see how Lowell hitting 7th every nite, over other potentials 3b like Aybar, Nomar, etc.. negatest the impact a Josh Beckett has.

Everyone says, including Steve the most, how much the Dodgers rotation sucks.

Short of landing Johan Santana, is there a better pitcher out there than Josh Beckett?
A WS experienced, 25yr old, flame thrower.

I'd trade 2 of the Jax 5, and take Lowell (his deal is only 2 years), if it meant Beckett was long termed.

Lowell could still bounce back. But really he's just an expensive throw in. The centerpiece is Beckett.

2005-11-21 14:32:50
116.   natepurcell
how is beckett a prima donna?

personally, i think becketts going to be the next great texan pitcher. he has the stuff and build for it. his arm is healthy and does not have all strain on it if he didnt have those blister problems.

either way, im still kidnapping the jacksonville squad.

2005-11-21 14:33:20
117.   Steve
Why does it matter whether the minor leaguers are going to develop into major leaguers when all you're going to trade them for is other people's crap? Why not just let them fail? We're supposed to be the crap-givers, not the crap-getters.
2005-11-21 14:34:00
118.   natepurcell
broxton, loney, orenduff, and aybar.

thats my final offer florida!

2005-11-21 14:34:50
119.   Uncle Miltie
Manager: Promote Oral.
Is that considered a performance enhancer?
2005-11-21 14:36:24
120.   D4P
Not for Drew. He's already weak in the knees.
2005-11-21 14:36:53
121.   LAT
119. I think the Vikings tried that approach.
2005-11-21 14:38:50
122.   oldbear
117. I dont consider Beckett 'other peoples crap'. And taking a 32yr old GG 3b back for 2 years isnt really that bad.

I think your undervaluing Beckett's potential, and overvaluing the short term effects of Lowell's contract.

If the plan is to win big in 2007 anyways, why would Lowell's deal, and the parting of 2 prospects, really impact that?

Especially if in return, you got the next Roger Clemons in his prime.

2005-11-21 14:40:33
123.   King of the Hobos
The Marlins will need a catcher if LoDuca is traded (to the Mets). We can trade them Phillips to keep the LA-Florida-NY pipeline open. Only it would be backwards as Phillips was with the Mets originally

If they're throwing in Lowell, Colletti has to throw in Phillips to make it even, right?

Where is Logan White in all of this? This is why I like the 4-headed GM theory, it gives me hope that the prospects won't disappear. Unless White is now locked up in a closet with Collins assuming his role

2005-11-21 14:41:42
124.   regfairfield
115 If the rumors of a cut payroll are true, then that trade effectively ends the improvements that could be made to the 2006 team.

Beckett has now thrown four seasons, and never pitched more that 178 innings or started more than 29 games.

As for is there anyone better, I would rather have the following pitchers over Beckett:

Carpenter (I'm a believer now)
Prior (if you want to go young and injury prone)

And that's just off the top of my head.

2005-11-21 14:45:56
125.   oldbear
Of the Jax 5 prospects:

#1. Joel Guzman- i still like him the most bc finding power hitting SS's is hard to do.

#2. Chad Billingsley-- #1 starters are hard to find.

#3. Jonothan Broxton-- ditto above

#4. Russ Martin-- love the OBP. Hate the lack of power. Plus we've got Navarro.

#5. James Loney--lacks power, OBP, etc...

I've got no problems parting ways with any of these guys, minus Billz/Guz.

But Beckett is worth at least as much as 3 of them collectively IMO.

2005-11-21 14:48:11
126.   King of the Hobos
The Dodgers have missed out on a former allstar 3B FA. I'm not sure the inability to sign Cirillo is a real loss though
2005-11-21 14:48:33
127.   jasonungar05
Similar Batters View in Pop-up
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1. Adrian Beltre (942)


2005-11-21 14:49:24
128.   Steve
Beckett is not crap. Crap is a polite term for Lowell. That is why Florida has to offer the next Roger Clemens to get rid of him.

Grow. Your. Own. It's not like we don't have candidates. And treat yourself to a disaster well-avoided by spending another quarter-mil or so to get Hochevar signed.

2005-11-21 14:49:52
129.   oldbear
Beckett is better than Sheets, Prior, Peavy, Carpenter, and Patterson?...

Harden, Santana, Oswalt is the class Josh Beckett is in.

But thats just my opinion.

His lack of innings actually in my opinion are a good sign at this point. His arm should be healthy for his prime years.

2005-11-21 14:51:12
130.   molokai
You trade for Beckett because top of line young pitching who have already put in 3/4 years in the Major Leagues and are available are extremely rare. Why is everyone thinking that the 2005 Lowell is what is going to happen going foward instead of something in between 2004 and 2005? Lowell was a top 5 NL 3b for 5 years posting a > 500 slug% in a very tough hitters park. As Ratt said he's only 32 and we just don't know what happened in 2005. If he is completely done it will be one of the fastest declines in my memory. He doesn't have the profile of a steroid user.

To acquire Beckett we have to do better then Blalock and Danks or Diamond. Blalock is already a solid 3b and Danks or Diamond are solid pitching prospects but below Billingsly and maybe not even above Orenduff.
What does Florida need:
1. SS - Alex Gonzalez is a free agent
2. C - if they trade LaDuca
3. 1st - if they trade Delgado, they might go with Jeff Willingham as an in house answer.
4. 3b - if they trade Lowell they will either need to replace him with a 3b or move Cabrerra back to 3b and find an outfielder
5. rf - if they trade lowell and move Cabrerra to 3b.
6. cf - if they trade Pierre
7. Relief Pitching - Todd Jones is a free agent and Mota was a disaster.
8. Starting Pitching - losing Burnett/ Beckett / Moehler from 2005 rotation but adding Vargas and Olsen to Willis means they need at least one starting pitcher in return.

What do we have:
1st - Choi - They traded D Lee for him, they might be interested in acquiring a cheap option for 1st base. When they traded him to us it was not so much to dump Choi but to get LaDuca and Mota.
- Looney - maybe

SS - Izturis - cheap and will be ready sooner then people predict but who would be our SS (Robles, Abreu, Nomar, Clayton)

3b - LaRoche - might be as good as Blalock in a few years but certainly not next year.

C - Navarro or Martin

OF - Guzman
D Young

Pitching -
Billinglsy - no no no
Broxton - perfect fit
Yhancy - perfect fit
Orenduff - maybe
Tiffany - to far away
OP - to expensive

I would expect any deal to include either Guzman or Laroche as the centerpiece. I like Beckett enough you could trade anyone not named Billingsly and I'd probably be for it.JMO

2005-11-21 14:51:20
131.   Steve
By the way, remember the blisters are a good thing, because McKeon never got a chance to ruin his arm.
2005-11-21 14:53:06
132.   Uncle Miltie
Nate- SI had an article where they compared Josh Beckett and Josh Hamilton, the first two picks of the '99 draft. The Devil Rays loved Beckett as a pitcher, but he was very cocky. Sometimes it's good to have a little self confidence, but here's what Beckett said after he was drafted:
" Beckett, 6-foot-5, 200 pounds, has been compared to fellow Texan hurlers and his baseball idols, Roger Clemens and Nolan Ryan, who he met at a banquet earlier this season.

"I ain't done nothing yet," Beckett said. "But I think one day, I'll live up to all of that. If someone told me different, I'd call them a liar. I think I'm going to be better than all those guys."

Beckett is already thinking about Cooperstown.

"Hopefully, I'll join them in the Hall one day," he said.

"I think I can get there in two years or as fast as Kerry Wood did," Beckett said. "I've got a couple of things to fine tune. After I get that taken care of, I'm ready. I think I can compete right now."

He has repeatedly predicted he'll pitch in the major league All-Star Game by 2001.

"You have to have some arrogance to be a pro pitcher," Beckett said. "My time has come and it's time for me to go as quick as possible if I can.""
Well, Josh still hasn't been an all star. When healthy, he's very good pitcher, and still has ace potential. I don't know if he'll ever be any better than Kerry Wood. I definitely wouldn't give up Guzman and Billingsley. In 2 years, he'd probably leave as a free agent to go to one of the Texas teams.

2005-11-21 14:54:15
133.   bigcpa
No one has raised the issue of Beckett's service time. He's eligible for FA after the 2007 season. To buy out a few FA years we'd have to pay him around Oswalt/Sheets money or $9-10M per. If he's not willing to extend you could be trading 6 years of a stud prospect or two for the right to spend $30M on two years of Beckett/Lowell. I'm unenthused unless the prospects are B+ guys.
2005-11-21 14:56:41
134.   oldbear
130. I agree and I'd even deal Billz because Beckett IS what Billingsley only hopes to someday become. No guarantee he even does.

And even if Lowell is completely done, who cares? His deal is for 2 years.

So his deal prevents us from signing Jacque Jones or Royce Clayton, or a dozen other mid level non difference making pay check collecters for 2006.

Doesnt sound bad to me.

2005-11-21 14:57:59
135.   King of the Hobos
Are Ramirez and Sanchez suppose to be considerably better than their stats indicate? I don't know a lot about them, but compared to Guzman and Billingsley statistically, it's not even close. The Dodgers would be crazy to make a starting offer of anything more than Orenduff and Aybar, and maybe a reliever (Scmoll?), as well as to take on Lowell's entire contract

Am I wrong to think the same about Sanchez and Ramirez as I do about Wang and Cano?

2005-11-21 15:00:26
136.   Rob M
Beckett has a lot of upside, but you can't discount the fact that he's never had a good complete season. Remember when Dreifort had a lot of upside?

As to other pitchers more attractive than Beckett, I'd say that Dontrelle is another that hasn't been mentioned. Beckett isn't in the same class as Santana or Peavy or Oswalt or Sheets or Beurle (or Willis) just yet. He hasn't done it yet. Harden is probably the best comparison. They both have similar profiles in terms of their potential greatly outweighing their accomplishment thus far. I prefer Harden at this point, by the way.

2005-11-21 15:00:31
137.   molokai
Yes, you are wrong.
2005-11-21 15:12:43
138.   FirstMohican
Ismael Valdez had blisters and a better regular season career up to 25.
2005-11-21 15:13:29
139.   Sushirabbit
60 It took me a long time to get used to me first CD of Disraeli Gears. I still have about 300+ Lps waiting for again for a good turntable (and that's after having sold well over 300) College Party DJ-ing was a good thing!

I like Beckett. Alot... but Billingsly and Broxton I'd rather keep. Hochevar is not a sure thing, and really, I'd trade him over the others. But I think the Marlins won't be interested in the many of chronologically challenged Dodgers. So it's scary to think of what could happen.

2005-11-21 15:14:37
140.   jasonungar05
Is he any more or less of an injury risk than the hated one. (Drew)
2005-11-21 15:16:45
141.   Sushirabbit
139 ... that has to be my worst butchery of the language on DT! Sorry guys. I swear I'm not drinkin'-- yet.
2005-11-21 15:18:21
142.   molokai
108 22
142 23
158 24
179 25

Anyone notice a trend. Very young pitcher increasing his innings every year.

2005-11-21 15:18:43
143.   trainwreck
The Marlins have a good catching prospect (I forgot his name I believe it starts with W), which is why they can deal away Lo Duca so offering them a catcher will not do much. I would have no problem giving them Edwin or Orenduff and others but I would not trade Guzman or Billingsley. We should convince them Werth will bounce back and progress and that Izturis is injured but he is scrappy like Lo Duca, he is the heart and soul of the Dodger team yadda yadda yadda.
2005-11-21 15:19:36
144.   oldbear
140. AJ Burnett is the pitching equilvalent of JD Drew.
2005-11-21 15:21:35
145.   trainwreck
We forgot to add signing Burnett to go with acquiring Beckett and Pavano.
2005-11-21 15:27:25
146.   the OZ
143- You're thinking of Josh Willingham. He's already 26 years old, and (if I remember correctly) only has 50 big league at-bats and missed the end of last season with a stress fracture.
2005-11-21 15:27:27
147.   King of the Hobos
143 Willingham is 26 and has a hard time playing catcher. But he can hit real well
2005-11-21 15:29:38
148.   King of the Hobos
145 Then we'd be signing him to sit on the bench. Burnett was out most of 2003
2005-11-21 15:33:21
149.   trainwreck
Haha just a joke since people were talking about adding Pavano as well. Might as well get as many ex-Marlin pitchers as possible. I actually like Burnett but he is going to get overpaid and we do not have the budget to over pay him.
2005-11-21 15:33:37
150.   Rob M
142 I agree that Beckett's early workload profile is ideal. I'd trade Laroche or Guzman plus a pitcher (aside from Billingsly). The other thing to remember is the extreme scarcity of good pitching, and the time it takes young pitchers to develop. I doubt that we'll have more than one good starter out of our system by 2007.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2005-11-21 15:36:58
151.   fawnkyj
Don't trade Guzman! This is why:

Joel Guzman hit a grand slam off Eude Brito yesterday to lead his Dominican Winter League team to a victory.
Brito gave up the slam before he recorded even one out, but he bounced back to shut Estrellas down over the next five innings and strike out nine in the process. Guzman is hitting .338/.416/.597 in 77 AB

2005-11-21 15:38:50
152.   Steve
Having Beckett is not worth having Lowell, and you could trade Willy Aybar and that would not change. That is why Lowell goes with Beckett.
2005-11-21 15:40:08
153.   Bob Timmermann
Perhaps the Dodgers could get Burnett as a free agent and use Aybar in a trade so we could just segue over to "Just another walk for Burnett."
2005-11-21 15:42:28
154.   jasonungar05

plus 5 years and 50 million should at least buy you someone with a winning record.

funny quote in todays paper, non baseball related. Some russian goalie:

"stats are like bikinis, they show alot, but not everything".

2005-11-21 15:44:28
155.   sanchez101
145. Dont forget we already have Penny, we could have the pitching rotation that Marlins fans shouldve had.

Im all in favor of getting Beckett, provided it doesnt cost guzman AND billingsley. I think the dodgers could get a deal done without billingsley, but i would be ok if thats what had to happen. Beckett is among the top young starters in the game, something the dodgers havent had their hands on since the mid-90's.

124. Santana and oswalt are the only guys id want before beckett. Peavy has yet to throw an entire season without missing time to injury. Carpenter is older and unlikely to ever match 2005, although he will probably be better than beckett for the next year or two. Harden is basically in the same situation as Beckett, excellent but has yet to throw an entire season. Sheets is like Carpenter, solid career with one outstanding season. You wonder if Prior will ever recover from Dusty Baker. Patterson is largely a product of a great hitters park, he is also one of most fly-ball oriented pitchers in the game.

Beckett has almost everything you want from a pitcher; K-rate, groundball stuff, control, youth. The only concern is durability, and its not due to any serious malady, just blisters, that have actually kept his arm fresh.

Acquiring Beckett would be a good move, which is why the Dodgers wont do it. Are we sure that the Dodgers even have the payroll to accomidate both Beckett and Lowell in exchange for minor leaguers. That would be adding upwards of $15 million that McCourt probably doenst have.

2005-11-21 15:44:45
156.   Bob Timmermann
Ahh, the continual debate in hockey about goalkeeping stats. Which is more important: goals against average or save percentage?
2005-11-21 15:47:54
157.   sanchez101
152. It is if you can afford to pay Lowell, and your not a tight-wade, jackass owner like the Marlins ownership group. Does McCourt own the Marlins too?
2005-11-21 15:50:09
158.   Mark
Oy. If there is one thing I'm getting out of all of these comments, it's that Dodger management will likely not get Beckett, just because there are people on here who like him, and as of late the team is acting more like Bizarro Superman or Evil Spock.

In other words, Bizarro Dodgers will probably sign Kenny Rogers or Esteban Loiza.

2005-11-21 15:50:12
159.   Steve
No, that's not true. Lowell also eats up a roster spot and blocks future players from developing, both opportunity costs that the Dodgers (1) obviously don't recognize or (2) respect. In that sense, Mike Lowell is no different than Mike Edwards. In fact, in almost every sense, Mike Lowell is no different than Mike Edwards.

In other words, even if McCourt had a $200 million payroll, Mike Lowell's presence on the team would still be a profound negative.

2005-11-21 15:51:37
160.   D4P
In fact, in almost every sense, Mike Lowell is no different than Mike Edwards.

Except, of course, for the fact that Lowell costs significantly more than Edwards.

2005-11-21 15:51:52
161.   Uncle Miltie
158- I want Jacque Jones, Joe Randa, Royce Clayton and J.T. Snow.

I hope the Dodgers don't go after Brian Giles or Adam Dunn.

2005-11-21 15:52:22
162.   natepurcell
can anyone dig up guzmans stats from 2004 DWL? maybe we can compare and see if this progression is real.

anyways, back on topic with beckett.

even though beckett has had injury problems, he isnt going to be the next driefort. heres why.

beckett's injuries are not internal and not dealing with the shoulder or elbows. Its just blisters, some adominal strains, petty stuff like that. His arm is healthy, his shoulder is probably pristine, and most importantly, hes built to be a workhorse.

the blisters have limited his IP through the injury nexus years therefore he should more than good to go through his prime years of 27-32.

That said, i still wouldnt give up billingsley for him. and i would have a very hard hard time with some of our elite positional players.

i would let them pick between one of our catchers(hoping they choose phillips), +jackson + one of our relief pitchers (brazoban or broxton).

2005-11-21 15:52:45
163.   RELX
I am ok with trading two of the Jacksonvill prospects for Lowell/Beckett. While I would love for all the prospects to come up to the Dodgers together and be stars, the fact is that at least half of the Dodger top prospects will never pan out on the Major League level, and of the half that do "make it," chances are none of them will be as good as Beckett is even now. Plus, i think Lowell is a good gamble, as we still have no third baseman. (Willie Aybar and Antonio Perez are not the answer.)

I think people get too attached to the prospects we have. As I said, while I would love for them to all come up with the Dodgers and be starts, baseball has become a win now game, and the Dodgers are not going to wait until 2007, 2008, 2009, for these players to POSSIBLY develop. I think we have the balance keeping some prospects and trading some prospects, and I think Lowell/Beckett is a good gamble.

2005-11-21 15:54:31
164.   RELX
Lowell wouldn't block Guzman, as he would be gone in two years.
2005-11-21 15:56:12
165.   King of the Hobos
162 .298/.341/.412 in 114 ABs. 2 homers, 8 BBs, 25 Ks

Also, digging up the stats involved changing the 2005 to 2004 in the Licey stats URL

2005-11-21 15:57:14
166.   Steve
Beckett wouldn't block anyone either, since he would be gone in two years.
2005-11-21 15:58:00
167.   King of the Hobos
I know Lowell played some 2B at the end of last season, could he switch to 2B after Kent is gone, waiting for Dewitt/Denker to take over there?
2005-11-21 15:59:03
168.   natepurcell
so guzman has improved his average, K rate, BB rate, slg and OBP.

wow, i guess this improvement is for real. i cant wait for next year. especially when the 51s play in tucson!

2005-11-21 15:59:08
169.   Jon Weisman
Would Mike Lowell do as well in a Dodger uniform as Mike Blowers?
2005-11-21 16:01:24
170.   scareduck
116 - personally, i think becketts going to be the next great texan pitcher.

My money's on John Lackey, though Kerry Wood still has an outside chance if he can stay healthy and find another pitch besides his fastball. Nah.

2005-11-21 16:01:46
171.   King of the Hobos
Rotoworld has an update with information from numerous sources, including Stark. The only thing I didn't know, there's a 48-hour window ending tomorrow to get the deal with Texas done.
2005-11-21 16:02:27
172.   natepurcell
wow, this offseason just got really exciting all of a sudden.
2005-11-21 16:03:48
173.   King of the Hobos
Another update, looks at the "sports alert" here:

Texas is out of the running according to Daniels

2005-11-21 16:04:46
174.   natepurcell
maybe the marlins finally looked at blalock's away splits and realized he isnt that great afterall.
2005-11-21 16:04:51
175.   sanchez101
159. as bad as lowell was last year, he is no mike edwards, lowell was a little less terrible with the bat a significantly better with the glove. I think the real debate here is what lowell will do in the future, was this year a fluke; since 2000 his lowest eqa is .274, this year it was .243. I think he could be a league average hitter next year, but who knows. Of course mike edwards doesnt come with Josh Beckett either.
2005-11-21 16:05:28
176.   das411
155 - Sheets is like Carpenter, solid career with one outstanding season.

You guys are letting this one slide?

169 - Is that Mike Blowers now or 1995?

2005-11-21 16:05:48
177.   alex 7
the fact that, due to the financial constraints of the Dodgers ownership, Burnett would likely be gone in two years makes me only consider that trade if it doesn't involve Billz/Guz/Broxton.

Honestly, how much worse would the Dodgers be for the next two years if they let Aybar and Perez play 3B and sign a Jeff Weaver inning-eater type at $5 million a year instead of paying almost four times that amount for Beckett and Lowell?

If Beckett could be signed to a 4 year deal instead, then I'd be for it.

2005-11-21 16:07:34
178.   Steve
It's like if someone handed you a $50 bill, and a parking ticket for $50, and told you you had to take both or neither one.
2005-11-21 16:08:09
179.   Steve
Take that back -- it's like a $500 parking ticket.
2005-11-21 16:08:19
180.   scanderbeg
The Dodgers should trade Ned Coletti for Mike Lowell and a bag of baseballs.
2005-11-21 16:10:07
181.   sanchez101
178. if i never had $50 before then id do it, just for the experience. Likewise, the dodgers havent had a starter pitcher as young and good as Beckett since Pedro. It be nice to have something to 2006 to look forward to.
2005-11-21 16:10:23
182.   Xeifrank
FYI, the Xeifrank College Football Playoff Series (XCFPS) has been updated to reflect current standings and rankings. Numbers refer to seeding. This is the 8 team playoff format that I created. Things could obviously change in the next two weeks. vr, Xei

#8 Auburn vs #1 USC
#5 VA Tech vs #4 LSU
#7 Oregon vs #2 Texas
#6 Ohio State vs #3 Penn State

2005-11-21 16:10:23
183.   Uncle Miltie
180- I'd fly to LA (from SF) and then drive Ned to the airport!
2005-11-21 16:11:38
184.   King of the Hobos
"According to Major League sources, the Florida Marlins have decided to trade the 25-year-old Beckett to the Boston Red Sox, reportedly for minor league prospects."

2005-11-21 16:12:23
185.   sanchez101
maybe the dodgers should just save their resources for Santana next year when MIN decides they cant afford him anymore.
2005-11-21 16:13:33
186.   natepurcell
if the red sox get beckett for just hanley ramirez and anibal sanchez then thats not fair.

hanley is overrated, and sanchez has only pitched 57 innings above A ball.

2005-11-21 16:13:51
187.   King of the Hobos

Florida can't decide if they're willing to do it for Sanchez rather than Lester, but it's essentially done

2005-11-21 16:14:14
188.   Uncle Miltie
The Red Sox bail us out. Now Ned will attempt to use those same trade pieces to acquire a big bat....Moises Alou!
2005-11-21 16:14:37
189.   scanderbeg
184 - If this is true, does that change the liklihood that the Red Sox will trade Manny this offseason?
2005-11-21 16:15:31
190.   scanderbeg
188 - or maybe the resurgent Daryle Ward!
2005-11-21 16:16:04
191.   Mark
177 The Dodgers are almost guaranteed to be a better team next year regardless of any free agent pickups. We won't have an accurate measurement unless injuries become the norm again. The problem with picking up a "Jeff Weaver inning-eater type" is that you also get a "Jeff Weaver gopherball-giver type".

I don't think Lowell is truly tied to Beckett. The Fish are just floating out options for teams, trying to pick up as many cheap prospects as they can.

2005-11-21 16:17:20
192.   natepurcell
damn, good move by the red sox if its just for those two.
2005-11-21 16:17:29
193.   scareduck
185 - and they will pay his salary with what money?
2005-11-21 16:17:46
194.   jasonungar05
my point about Drew is simply that when Depo grabbed him it was the wrong thing to do yet Beckett has been on the DL seven times in the last four years.

yeah, i think Hockey Goalies are all about rink-adjusted save percentage.

2005-11-21 16:19:51
195.   Steve
Colletti will just trade Guzman for Lowell now.
2005-11-21 16:19:56
196.   Uncle Miltie
This is a steal for Boston if it's Sanchez. Ramirez is a nice prospect, but he doesn't have Guzman's upside. It would be like us giving up Orenduff and Navarro (I think that's a better offer).
2005-11-21 16:21:17
197.   King of the Hobos
Gammons now says that the Marlins will receive Ramirez, Sanchez, and another prospect. I've learned to not trust Gammons about the Red Sox, as he likes to report things that aren't true with them
2005-11-21 16:22:59
198.   alex 7
take Beckett's money and give it to Giles already. Let Billingsly, Jackson, Houlton and Broxton battle it out for the back end of the rotation.

By the way, anyone hear anything about Broxton's role next season? Is he an MLB reliever now or have the Dodgers thought about letting him work out as a starter?

Not even sure who would know about that now that Depo's gone. Collins and White I would think.

2005-11-21 16:23:24
199.   natepurcell
man, im kind of bummed. the red sox didnt give up as much as i thought they should.
2005-11-21 16:23:54
200.   D4P
Steve - You're a cynic after my own heart.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2005-11-21 16:24:27
201.   LAT
Wait, did our new GM just get out manuvered by a team with NO GM?
2005-11-21 16:25:14
202.   D4P
Well, Purcey, take heart in the fact that the Red Sox (not the Dodgers) are stuck with Lowell's contract, and that as of this point, Colletti hasn't ruined the "We're finally free of Dreifort et al.'s horrible contracts" buzz.
2005-11-21 16:25:59
203.   King of the Hobos
201 No GMs were involved. It's Hicks, Loria, and the Red Sox guys. I guess Daniels and Beinfest weren't good enough for their bosses
2005-11-21 16:26:06
204.   natepurcell
we could have given them broxton, chin lung hu and james loney and it would have beaten the red sox package into a bloody pulp.
2005-11-21 16:26:09
205.   Uncle Miltie
Who's the 3rd prospect? Brandon Moss? Kelly Shoppach would make sense, since the Marlins need a catcher.
2005-11-21 16:26:23
206.   sanchez101
201. oh, yes
ned was probably at friday vespers while all this went down.
2005-11-21 16:27:21
207.   scareduck
199 - if the Dodgers were a major market team, they could afford to take on Lowell's contract...
2005-11-21 16:27:43
208.   LAT
206 Does he even know today is Monday?
2005-11-21 16:27:54
209.   natepurcell
why does it seem that is always either the red sox or yankees that end up with the players after the dust settles?


2005-11-21 16:29:37
210.   scareduck
208 - when did his Rickness enter the room?
2005-11-21 16:32:25
211.   fawnkyj
Maybe Logan has a lot more clout than we thought!
2005-11-21 16:34:23
212.   Uncle Miltie
Ned must feel terrible right now.
Predict his first trade...
Broxton and Kuo for Lowell and $10 million cash.
2005-11-21 16:34:38
213.   Bob Timmermann
Tell me why?
I don't like Mondays.
Tell me why?
I don't like Mondays.
Tell me why?
I don't like Mondays.
I want to shoot
The whole day down.
2005-11-21 16:37:25
214.   Bob Timmermann
The Padres have re-signed Eric Young. The NL West in 2006 is assured for them.
2005-11-21 16:38:28
215.   D4P
I can't believe the Dodgers ever let him go.
2005-11-21 16:39:13
216.   Bob Timmermann
Young has played for seven different teams, so I think a lot of teams have felt they could part with him.
2005-11-21 16:40:51
217.   D4P
Well, hopefully for his sake, 8 will be enough.
2005-11-21 16:42:46
218.   Bob Timmermann
Young has played for just one AL team (Texas in 2004). Perhaps the Padres will trade him to a contender later in the year like they did with Geoff Blum.

And the Padres acquired Bobby Hill from Pittsburgh too.

They are stacking up the infield depth there.

2005-11-21 16:44:00
219.   Uncle Miltie
EY is more of an outfielder now. He can't play acceptable defense at 2B anymore.
2005-11-21 16:48:11
220.   Bob Timmermann
Did EY ever play acceptable defense at 2B?
2005-11-21 16:49:23
221.   scareduck
While Frank is busy wrecking the team one front office firing at a time, I recall the following DT column --

"the Dodgers will remain in Chavez Ravine and stay in the hands of the McCourt family for at least the next 25 years."

2005-11-21 16:51:00
222.   Uncle Miltie
Baseball Prospectus says yes:
1996-97, 1999
We should have kept him. He was a very solid leadoff hitter.
2005-11-21 16:51:09
223.   LAT
221. Talk about making me throw up in my mouth.
2005-11-21 16:52:31
224.   Uncle Miltie
Maybe we'll trade for Luis Castillo, who used be one of my favorite players, but now has lost his speed because of hip problems.
2005-11-21 17:02:46
225.   scanderbeg
Maybe they can bring in True Dodgers Guillermo Mota and Paul Lo Duca for Jeff Kent (bad for team chemistry) and Chad Billingsley (who hasn't won over the hearts of the fans at Chavez Ravine => expendable).

By the way, Darren Dreifort is a free agent. I bet he could be had for cheap. He's got loads of potential!

2005-11-21 17:05:05
226.   LAT
221 The only silver lining there is that Frank has lied about everything else maybe he is lying about how long he wants to own the team for. (Nah, I'm just deluding myself.)

What is an LA sports fan to do. Although Clippers are much improved, in the end they will break hearts. After all, they are still the Clipers and still owned by Sterling.

While the Lakers have a good owner, they have made some huge recent mistakes and they are an awful team (can one guy and four stiffs be considered a team?).

The Dodgers now have the worst owner in the history of professional sports. Sterling should send Frank a nice cheese basket.

They can call themselves whatever they want and while I appreciate thier efforts to gain market share, for me the Angels are and will always be an Orange County team.

NFL. This new agreement to maybe agree to maybe bring a football team to LA if maybe they can find a place to play, may not be worth a damn.

The Knigs are hockey and on this point I agree with Simers: Who cares? Moreover, after a strike I can not pick up the NHL mantle, offensive zones or not.

I guess its the Galaxy or nothing.

2005-11-21 17:06:37
227.   natepurcell
hanley ramirez= chin lung hu minus the great defense. ramirez is a red sox prospect and therefore overhyped.

hanley ramirez in the FSL last year:
310/.364/.389 1hr
BB/PA= .066
K/PA= .152

chin lung hu in the FSL this year:
BB/PA= .039
K/PA= .081

take into account Hu's defense is reportly tons better than ramirez... i dont see that big of a difference. Hu also showed way better pop.

2005-11-21 17:08:31
228.   D4P
The Dodgers now have the worst owner in the history of professional sports.

Georgia Frontierre?
Marge Schott?

2005-11-21 17:09:14
229.   D4P
Nate - Rotoworld seems to think that Boston probably overpaid.

ESPN's Peter Gammons is reporting that the Red Sox will acquire Josh Beckett and Mike Lowell from the Marlins for Hanley Ramirez, Anibal Sanchez and a player to be named.
If only Beckett could be counted on to throw 200 innings, it might be worth it for the Red Sox. As is, with Lowell's salary included and two of the 50-best prospects in baseball being surrendered, it's probably too much to pay. The Red Sox should try to spin Lowell on to another team, though they'll have to eat maybe half of the $18 million he's owed over the next two years. The Twins are believed to be interested. Nov. 21 - 7:23 pm et

2005-11-21 17:09:51
230.   Bob Timmermann
As much as we might not like Frank McCourt, in the rogues' gallery of pro sports owners in the U.S. the McCourts can't hold bunch of NHL owners.

The Bidwill family has owned the NFL Cardinals for decades and they've been a disaster for nearly the entire time.

Even among baseball owners, the McCourts have a long way to go to match people like Bob Short, C. Arnholt Smith, Horace Stoneham, Claude Brochu, etc.

2005-11-21 17:10:22
231.   LAT
BTW Steve, I hope today was a good day for you.
2005-11-21 17:11:18
232.   Bob Timmermann
In his Rumblings & Grumblings (insider column) on, Jayson Stark speaks glowingly of Ned Colletti and says his hiring is the only good thing to come out of the Dodgers in a long time.

Presumably this means Colletti returns Stark's phone calls.

2005-11-21 17:12:28
233.   natepurcell
i personally think the red sox underpaid if that PTBNL is not lester, papelbon, hansen or pedroia.

hanley is overratted and is blocked by renteria anyways. Sanchez has good numbers, but he has a throwing motion that is prone to injuries down the road. At least they could do is include shoppach to even it out a bit.

2005-11-21 17:13:31
234.   Michael Green
Remember, everybody, after our recent trades with the Marlins, we're lucky Colletti didn't make the deal and find out he'd acquired Lowell Thomas instead of Mike Lowell!

As to the McCourts being awful, they have a ways to go to catch up to Fox, much less the other incompetents Bob mentioned.

In fact, some wonderful baseball history. Feel for Phillies fans. They had an owner who took payoffs under the table in trades, then sold to a guy whom Judge Landis banned for betting.

2005-11-21 17:14:11
235.   molokai
You guys who didn't want to trade anyone worthwhile must be thrilled with Colletti today. It will be hard for anyone to make a better trade then the RedSox just made this offseason if the report is true.
When Beckett goes on to his HOF career and LaRoche becomes Joe Crede your all going to be shaking your heads. Or if Beckett goes on to become Ismail Valdez and LaRoche goes on to become Ron Santo I'll be shaking my head.
2005-11-21 17:14:47
236.   LAT
231. Woops, I guess that was Thursday. Hope it was a good weekend.
2005-11-21 17:16:43
237.   Jon Weisman
According to this link (referred by L.A. Observed), the only person getting the Bob Woodward story right is ... Keith Olbermann.

I guess Olbermann has a blog at, but I haven't read it.

(I post this as a former ESPN announcer note, not a political note.)

2005-11-21 17:17:39
238.   alex 7
I think most here agreed the only untouchables were Billingsly and Guzman. Everyone else was tradeable though we're still talking about only 2 years of a #2 pitcher.
2005-11-21 17:19:19
239.   Mark
226 "The Dodgers now have the worst owner in the history of professional sports. "

Carl Pohlad, Marge Schott, and David Glass would have issue with that.

2005-11-21 17:21:31
240.   Jon Weisman
239 et al: Ted Stepien, anyone?
2005-11-21 17:21:52
241.   LAT
Fair enough. "Worst owner in histroy" should be "current worst owner." But you gotta admit, given the short time he has owned the team, at this rate he is making a pretty good run at the "history" crown.
2005-11-21 17:22:13
242.   Bob Timmermann
At least Jon spells Olbermann's last name correctly, unlike Marty Kaplan at the Huffington Blog.

I would also point out the Pac-10 All-Academic football team was headlined by Kevin Schimmlemann of Stanford and Troy Bienemann of Washington State.

Behold the awesome power of the double N.

Anybody know in which movie all the bad guys have a double n at the end of their names?

2005-11-21 17:24:31
243.   scareduck
225 - plus he is scrappy and full of heart. So for that matter is Mike Edwards.
2005-11-21 17:26:04
244.   Bob Timmermann
"Current Worst Owner" for McCourt is pretty harsh since everyone is rating him for what they think he will do instead of what he has done.

The farm system hasn't been decimated. Dodger Stadium hasn't been turned into The Grove Chavez Ravine. The team is not planning to move to Portland or Las Vegas.

You are guilty of bad deeds committed, not guilty of bad deeds we project will happen.

2005-11-21 17:27:10
245.   D4P
I think most folks around here consider "firing Depo" to be a very significant "bad deed committed."
2005-11-21 17:27:42
246.   Mark
241 I still think Carl Pohlad is worse in the batch of current owners. We haven't seen McCourt threaten the Dodgers with contraction unless Los Angeles ponies up money for a new stadium. (Yet?)
2005-11-21 17:28:14
247.   molokai
Jerry Buss charges 95.00 for a ticket behind the basket to watch a last place team and you have issues with McCourt.
2005-11-21 17:28:59
248.   Bob Timmermann
Yes that may be a bad deed, but you need a lot of them to catch up to Jeffrey Loria or Peter Angelos or Vince Naimoli (who's not a current owner anymore).

The worst owner is the owner of the Washington Nationals.

2005-11-21 17:29:12
249.   molokai
Especially given the fact that Pohlad is one of the wealthiest owners in sports but keeps insisting the city build him a stadium.
2005-11-21 17:31:01
250.   Jon Weisman
Brief new post up top.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2005-11-21 17:34:10
251.   natepurcell
i guess gammons is now reporting that a west coast team is in serious trade talks for delgado- either seattle, LAD, or LAA.
2005-11-21 17:35:39
252.   fanerman
251 - That doesn't exactly conflict with Jon's new post. Maybe Boston can pick up Hee Seop off the scrap heap like they did David Ortiz.
2005-11-21 17:35:52
253.   LAT
Bob, I agree people should be condemed for their actions, not what they are thinking or have not yet done. But even if Frank did pave DS or dismantle the farm those things would at least be a plan. Right now he is flailing around in the dark making the Dodgers a laughing stock. And his idioc "we are committed to winning now" and "we are aggressive" drivol is maddening. Either tell the truth or say nothing.
2005-11-21 17:43:27
254.   molokai
He is only a laughing stock here. Most of baseball liked the Colletti hire. When the minority considers you a laughing stock that is not something to be concerned about.
2005-11-21 17:45:33
255.   Steve
254 -- True as far as employment goes; not true when major league baseball is full of hacks and poltroons.
2005-11-21 17:51:27
256.   Uncle Miltie
nate- I think it's Seattle. They wanted Delgado last offseason and were prepared to move Richie Sexson to LF. I'd have no problem if the Colletti wanted Delgado as long as the Marlins weren't asking for much is return. Delgado is owed $48 million over the next 3 years, an amount that McCourt is unlikely to be willing to pay.
2005-11-21 18:53:21
257.   MikeLumHarris
242. Martin Bormann?

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