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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
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Arrested Development
2005-11-22 09:10
by Jon Weisman

I'm bitter.

In the comments sections, though not on the main blog, I've provided updates on the fate of Arrested Development, a brilliant comedy that has won critical acclaim but stands on television's death row, with Fox's thumb on the lethal injection's needle.

It's a bitter time for fans of the show, just as it continues to be a bitter time for fans of Paul DePodesta, who doesn't have the comic chops of the Bluth family but was also more clever than his ratings showed.

In the world we live in, you don't always get enough time to prove yourself. That's not to say you couldn't run Arrested Development for seven seasons without the ratings improving. But when you have something that is both clever and different, and maybe even a little radical, you need to give your audience a long chance. You need to allow the people to give your program a second chance, maybe even a third.

I am tempted to curse the day that DePodesta traded Paul Lo Duca. While there was the potential for high rewards, and while it appears the trade will play out over the long term in the Dodgers' favor, it put DePodesta on the clock and in the gunsights of too many people. After thumbing his nose at the popular mentality, DePodesta had to be perfect; his genius had to be borne out every night.

At the same time, DePodesta wouldn't have been DePodesta without making a bold move to try to improve the Dodgers. As with Arrested Development, you live with the vision, you die with the vision.

And so, Monday night, instead of Arrested Development and DePodesta, we get Stacked and Ned Colletti. Instead of razor-sharp characters and thinking light-years ahead, we have set-up, set-up, joke. And many people will watch, and many people will be happy, and for all I know, the jokes may occasionally hit their mark. Enough advertisers will enjoy the resting in the bosom of Pamela Anderson for as long as they can suspend caring about getting lost in there, and enough Dodger fans will enjoy the familiar names - Jim Fregosi, Juan Pierre - passed along by Colletti to feel their own temporary peace. For that matter, perhaps David Hasselhoff and Paul Lo Duca will make guest appearances.

Ultimately, Stacked and Colletti will either be underrated surprises - with Colletti, to be honest, the more likely candidate - or they'll wake up one day to realize that their charms don't work under the spotlight anymore.

Maybe long-term success was never meant to be for Arrested Development and Paul DePodesta, but I fear I'll still be left wondering what might have been. All I can hope from Colletti is that he makes me forget.

Comments (208)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2005-11-22 10:01:01
1.   Bob Timmermann
"My wife left me for another man!"
"You bitter?"
"Yeah, bit him too."
2005-11-22 10:01:38
2.   Vishal
it's sad irony that the phrase "arrested development" itself all too accurately describes what you're talking about.
2005-11-22 10:06:34
3.   Jon Weisman
2 - No, I didn't struggle over the headline of this post.
2005-11-22 10:15:33
4.   bigcpa
Apparently our first baseman is not sufficiently reaching the 18-49 demo either.
2005-11-22 10:19:10
5.   scareduck
FWIW, John, Helen and I have been following doomed shows for years now: Buffy, Xena, Farscape, Serenity. What blows me away is how many people define success as "is it Simpsons big?", forgetting that with 200 channels, it doesn't necessarily take a hit on that magnitude to make money.

I have a friend working for a midsize distribution company (Regent Entertainment) whose goal is to populate that niche. So far, they have Here!, which is a pay-per-view netlet aimed at gay/lesbian audiences, and a feature film production arm that aims principally at B-movies (think "Swamp Thing" only lower budget) for foreign distribution. Their aim is to get large audiences through many low-budget films, rather than a few high-dollar blockbusters. It's an interesting company, and I suspect a very sound business model.

2005-11-22 10:19:24
6.   scareduck
4 - clever!
2005-11-22 10:19:26
7.   Bob Timmermann
A friend of mine (Yankees fan) is very excited that the Yankees could get Pierre or Castillo. I told him that he could have 'em.

Jim Fregosi's ascendancy to front-runner just makes me stop and ponder what is going on.

I do think that Juan Pierre would be popular with a certain portion of Dodger-land. And probably a majority part that expects the Dodgers to return to the era of the 1960s by fiat. (And I mean fiat, not Fiat (TM)).

2005-11-22 10:23:14
8.   Jon Weisman
5- "Their aim is to get large audiences through many low-budget films, rather than a few high-dollar blockbusters. It's an interesting company, and I suspect a very sound business model."

Someone in the Dodger front office just went "Shazam!"

2005-11-22 10:23:59
9.   Screwgie
Who knew Pam Anderson and Ned Colletti had so much in common?

That's why I read Dodger Thoughts everyday. :)

2005-11-22 10:25:18
10.   Jon Weisman
5 - Buffy is an example of what patience and second chances can yield - and for that matter, so is Serenity. Although as my brother says, Joss Whedon is so much more valuable in a television universe than in films, that we should hope he isn't lost to films.
2005-11-22 10:27:32
11.   dzzrtRatt
One thing I can't understand is why networks play a program like AD at 8 p.m.

I don't think I'm that different from other busy people. I tend to work later, and then want time to help my kid with his homework or handle home issues with my wife, which means if I'm going to veg out with the TV, I don't even turn it on until after 9, maybe even 10. It's no accident that the most sophisticated shows that have succeeded over the years play at 9 or 10. By the time I'd even think of watching Arrested Development, it was over.

Also, I kind of wonder if the DVD availability of shows like this tends to hurt their first-run ratings. I always figure I can see it later. Arrested Development also probably had a high Tivo usage. I bet the ratings folks throw out Tivo'd shows because they know the commercials get skipped.

I'm much more into the rhythm of HBO's shows. If I missed "Rome" Sunday, I could see it Tuesday. I'm sure if AD had been on HBO, I wouldn't have missed an episode.

Like the LA Times and network news, entertainment TV that is supported by the insertion of commercial might be a model that is suddenly but inevitably dying. Especially as applies to smart shows like AD.

2005-11-22 10:32:57
12.   Jon Weisman
11 - When I worked for Nielsen, VCRs were metered. I'd expect TiVos are as well.

But you certainly may have a point that the way to build AD's audience, about getting people to try it for the first time, is to put it on more watchable times for adults.

2005-11-22 10:33:46
13.   Alex Belth
Man, that's a drag about "Arrested Development." I've recently been watching the first two seasons on dvd. While I was far more taken with season one, I really admired the performances and, often, the writing.

Bob, I don't know what your Yankee friend is smoking with regards to Pierre and Castillo, but tell him to put the crack pipe down. I don't look at Wang and Cano as any kind of saviors but if you had to deal the two of them, I should hope you could get more than Pierre and Castillo.

2005-11-22 10:35:33
14.   gvette
7. "fiat" or Fiat? The return to the 60's style would "work" as well as a friend's old Fiat Spider did. Not at all
2005-11-22 10:36:20
15.   Rob M
Speaking of Fregosi, I really like Simers' column this morning. He questions why Colletti would bring in such and uninspired choice, instead of making a bold move, like Bud Black. Too bad he didn't put more energy into praising DePodesta's bold moves.

He also gets a dig in at Choi, but I'll take what I can get.

2005-11-22 10:38:44
16.   D4P
I too had thought about the similarities between the respective plights of Depo and AD. It seems as if "being unconventional, going against the grain, trying new things, etc." is a necessary but not sufficient condition for genius. Unfortunately, being different is also often a sufficient condition for being rejected. In many cases, it is not until much later that genius is recognized, often posthumously.

It's truly a shame. At the very least, if AD is to be cancelled, it is nice that they are being told so ahead of time and given 8 or so episodes to wrap up the series and have a legitimate series finale.

But one thing is clear: Fox and McCourt are each making a huge mistake...

2005-11-22 10:42:09
17.   Mark
Am I the only one here who doesn't find AD funny or interesting at all? The writing pales in comparison to shows like Extras, or Battlestar Galactica, or (R.I.P.) Carnivale, or Aquateen Hunger Force, or Entourage. I think Family Guy is just about the only network show we watch anymore.
2005-11-22 10:45:25
18.   gvette
15- What qualifications does Bud Black have that Hershiser didn't? If Hershiser was not in the final running, why would Black be considered?

The Times Sports page has pushed Black for a managerial opening since mid 2004.

2005-11-22 10:46:27
19.   Vishal
[7] i like juan pierre. i generally enjoy watching him play. i think he's a smart player, and a careful one, who tries to get the most out of his skill set. for example i remember watching some tv show where they had a bit on him, and it showed his pregame routine, and one of the things he did was roll a ball down the foul line from home plate, to check the slope of the infield in case he was going to bunt down the line.

anyway, i like the guy, but a fellow with no home run power, coming off a .276/.326/.354 season doesn't inspire me with confidence. i think he's valuable as a speedy leadoff guy if he can get on base at about a .370 clip, as he had been doing, but he's not a lock to do that; he's too batting-average dependent. so i don't want him on my team.

2005-11-22 10:46:50
20.   LAT
7. Jim Fregosi's ascendancy to front-runner just makes me stop and ponder what is going on.

Same thing that went on with the GM serch. No one wants the job.

2005-11-22 10:47:41
21.   Jon Weisman
Does anyone subscribe to PR Week?

17 - I'm sure you're not, though I watch every episode of two of the four shows you named and think AD is definitely superior. But it's all taste. As with many things, what might be the majority viewpoint here could be the minority viewpoint in the rest of the world.

2005-11-22 10:47:45
22.   regfairfield
17 I don't think it's fair to compare a non-comedy to a comedy.

Then again, saying that Family Guy and Aqua Teen Hunger Force are superior to AD makes have to question your judgement.

2005-11-22 10:49:55
23.   Jon Weisman
15, 18 - When I hear bold choice, I think about someone like Torey Lovullo.

When some sportswriters hear "bold choice," they think someone who has already been part of a winner and whom they already have a relationship with. Which isn't really that bold.

2005-11-22 10:54:10
24.   Penarol1916
22. Definately agree. I find Carnivale and Entourage to be the worst of those choices brought up in terms of the quality of their writing, both were overrated because they are on HBO.
2005-11-22 10:54:29
25.   Rob M
18 Bud Black has had a lot more success as a coach than Hershiser, and a lot more experience. The only thing Hershiser has over Black is PR value.
2005-11-22 10:59:57
26.   Rob M
23 I agree with you there. While I think I'd like Black as a manager, I really want to have a GM whose judgement I trust. Someone who I know is making an inspired move for compelling reasons.

The fact is, I have no faith in Colletti right now to make an interesting choice for manager or to manage the roster well or to make bold trades or bold NON-trades. I hope he proves me wrong.

2005-11-22 11:03:49
27.   gvette
25--Maybe, maybe not; you can make an argument that Hershiser did a superior job with less to work with in Texas as opposed to the talent Black has had.

Either way, Dodger management (such as it is)appears not to be looking at pitching coaches for the managerial slot.

2005-11-22 11:04:21
28.   Jim Tracy

I've never seen an episode of AD, but I know how you feel. I was absolutely gutted when they cancelled SportsNight. I don't know if anyone remembers that show (creators of The West Wing), but it left me gutted (I'd say bitter, but wouldn't get Bob started on another Rodney-Dangerfield-type joke).

2005-11-22 11:09:07
29.   Jon Weisman
28 - When AD comes back, you should watch!

Canceled too soon: SportsNight, Freaks and Geeks, My So-Called Life ...

And can I put in a vote for Andy Richter Controls the Universe?

2005-11-22 11:13:36
30.   Rob M
While it was no Freaks and Geeks, I got a kick out of Action while it lasted.
2005-11-22 11:14:31
31.   Jim Tracy
Oh I did like Freaks and Geeks a lot. I'm reminded of that show when I watch How I Met Your Mother. Never got the chance to watch My So-Called Life.... one of those schedule things.

I've always wanted to get into Arrested Development. The cast is full of actors that I like, and although the timing is inconvenient, I've always thought I'll rent the DVDs and watch the shows. I have to say that if they are planning on cancelling the show, it makes me not want to watch it.

Unfortunately, I have a bad feeling that this is The West Wing's last season too.... the last remaining link on TV to my 20s. Now all shows that I watch started after I turned 30.

One of my favortie comedies right now is Two and a half Men. I feel like it shouldn't, but that show just makes me laugh out loud, mostly because they push the inappropriate boundries quite a bit and quite callously.

2005-11-22 11:16:58
32.   Slipstream
Maybe McCourt will freak out that Fregosi is the front-runner for manager and fire Colletti in the middle of the managerial search.

I know, I know. Things like that don't happen in the big leagues.

2005-11-22 11:17:53
33.   D4P
Also cancelled too soon: Greg the Bunny.
2005-11-22 11:23:41
34.   LAT
32. I know, I know. Things like that don't happen in the big leagues.

They did just happen. That's how we find ourselves where we are.
2005-11-22 11:27:00
35.   Joe
Action! was a great show.

I'm going to take a Forget-Me-Now. Hopefully when I awake, I'll be unaware of the DePo firing and Arrested Development canceling.

2005-11-22 11:30:51
36.   Bob Timmermann
The joke in 1 was not from Rodney Dangerfield. It was actually stolen from "The Simpsons". It was from the "Colonel Homer" episode. It was some witty repartee on the mock show "Ya Hoo!, starring in alphabetical order: Yodeling Zeke ..."

Much as I hate that man right now, you gotta love that suit.
-- Bart to Homer

2005-11-22 11:33:10
37.   Jacob L
The better parallel to the Dodgers would be if, instead of cancelling AD, they kept the show on the air in name only, but replaced the creative team and actors with banal retreads from recent hit shows. Think Matthew Perry in place of Tobias. In that sense, the cancellation is almost a good thing. We still have to live with the Dodgers.

On a thread a couple of weeks ago, I tried to draw a comparison between the McCourts and the Bluths, and I'm not even sure what I meant by that anymore. Probably something to do with their impossible to fathom success in real estate, vanity, and propensity for making poor decisions. And it was Fox that gave us both families.

2005-11-22 11:33:35
38.   Fletch
Jon- Are you and I the same person? Love AD, SportsNight, Freaks & Geeks, and Richter. So Called Life was so-so.

As far as Extras goes, I think it pares in comparison to the original Gervais/BBC version of the Office.

Fregosi and Collins. Huh, too bad Bowa signed so fast with the Yanks, they could have brought him in too.

2005-11-22 11:38:13
39.   jasonungar05
Didn't Seinfeld have awful ratings the first few years?
2005-11-22 11:41:01
40.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
15 "He also gets a dig in at Choi, but I'll take what I can get."

I read only as far as Simers comparing Choi to a Thanksgiving turkey (in the first few paragraphs), then I moved on. I guess I should have given him more of a chance.

Or maybe I gave him the same chance he gives Choi...

2005-11-22 11:42:27
41.   Rob M

Bill Simmons gloating about the Beckett deal. Check out his mining of quotes from the early 90's about Boston's top prospects from that era. A helpful warning about falling in love with our youngsters before they make the show.

2005-11-22 11:42:47
42.   Penarol1916
39. I think that it had average ratings it's first year and then got killed when it went up against Home Improvement at the start of its second season until it was moved from its Tuesday timeslot.
2005-11-22 11:44:18
43.   Bob Timmermann
I believe "Seinfeld" had awful ratings the first two years. If you consider the initial group of episodes a full season. The show really didn't hit its stride until the third season.

My mom, to her credit, watched from the outset and turned me on to the show.

She told me before she passed away that "The Contest" was the funniest thing she had ever seen on TV, even though she knew that the subject matter was something that she shouldn't laugh about (Catholic school upbringing and all that.)

The day after my mom passed away, my brother and I went to a Dodger game and Jason Alexander sang the National Anthem and we thought that it was quite apropos.

2005-11-22 11:45:52
44.   Jon Weisman
43 - I watched from the outset. And I cherish those initial episodes, even though the show evolved from them.
2005-11-22 11:49:16
45.   Bob Timmermann
Jon is still upset that Lee Garlington isn't on the show anymore.
2005-11-22 12:01:52
46.   jasonungar05
the contest was a great episode. The best one probabably.

I like the one where George lies about being a marine biologist and unexpectedly saves a whale whose blowhole has been obstructed because Kramer is shooting golf balls into the ocean.

Is that a Titlest?

Other favorites include Sernity Now (it's my dodger theme, before i post abot Fregosi, i say it a few times. Then I wind up deleting what I wrote.)

The YadaYada is great too.

2005-11-22 12:03:37
47.   scanderbeg
46 - the library cop was also a great one.
2005-11-22 12:03:39
48.   Penarol1916
I always liked the episodes that aired around the same time as The Contest that focused on making "Jerry" for NBC.
2005-11-22 12:04:05
49.   Eric L
41 Certainly true, but Gammons does tend to get a little too giddy about prospects in general (I think it is the fanboy in him). It would be interesting to see what someone like Sickels or BA said about the same guys.
2005-11-22 12:05:24
50.   D4P
The Contest was great. Also the Mimbo and the Bubble Boy.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2005-11-22 12:06:39
51.   scanderbeg
None of the shows that have been mentioned have ever been an alibi for a man falsely-accused of murder. Curb Your Enthusiasm is the most consistently funny show on the air today, in my opinion.

By the way, am I the only person who thinks that Everybody Loves Raymond has never been funny?

2005-11-22 12:09:06
52.   Eric L
51 Raymond has it's moments. I wouldn't say that it was a great show, but it makes me chuckle from time to time.
2005-11-22 12:20:57
53.   jasonungar05
I love Curb, but missed Sundays episode. I'll catch it this week sometime. The week before was hilarious.

The sex offender being "In the throes of a moral quandary" because he isnt sure if he wants to tell Larry that the kids dad told the kid where to find the hidden Matzo.

2005-11-22 12:23:07
54.   Bob Timmermann
I thought last Sunday's "Curb" was the best of the season, which has been below par.

Being a family venue, I can't describe the part that made me laugh the most. But Mickey Mantle is involved.

2005-11-22 12:30:35
55.   Chris H
Curb Your Enthusiasm is definitely my favorite current show. It is all the good parts of Seinfeld (only more so) without Jerry's terrible acting and George's over-the-top buffoonry. Larry David is a genius.

I will shed tears for Arrested Development. If NBC had any brains they would pick it up and pair it with The Office (which is a poor match for Earl). Humorously, I heard that in one of the final episodes the Bluth family reaches out to the Home Builders Organization (HBO, haha) to save their company.

2005-11-22 12:32:32
56.   Purple Hippopotamus
The Second Spitter episode with Keith Hernandez is tops.
2005-11-22 12:33:33
57.   jasonungar05
54Cool I can't wait to watch. I thought last season was worst than this season. The first year was great.

Any of you catch Medium last night? My wife really likes that show, I find it sappy and obvious. It was in 3-d last night. She also loves LOST but I am not a huge fan.

I like ROME, that got alot better towards the end.

The only thing I make a point to watch anymore is CSI (orginal only) and Without a Trace.

2005-11-22 12:37:05
58.   Colorado Blue
57 - I like ROME, that got alot better towards the end.

From some cast members, not so much...

2005-11-22 12:40:28
59.   Bob Timmermann
I can't believe they killed Caesar. I wasn't expecting that at all.

The only more surprising thing was seeing Wild Bill Hickock getting shot in the back by Jack McCall in "Deadwood".

2005-11-22 12:41:17
60.   Fallout
I don't like sitcoms because of what Jon describes as, "we have set-up, set-up, joke." It's just too canned.

But, your lamenting over AD being cancelled reminds me of when LaFemme Nikita was cancelled. I was sad and bitter too. (By the creators of 24) It wasn't cancelled because of ratings but because of a financial dispute between Warner and USA Network.

2005-11-22 12:45:27
61.   dzzrtRatt
Simmons on Mike Lowell: Speaking of Lowell, I'm excited for this aspect of the trade -- has there ever been a Red Sox player making nine million a year who carried no expectations whatsover? If he stinks, well, he's supposed to stink -- he's the lemon we had to take to get Josh Beckett. If he shows any rejuvenation at all, it's a bonus.

Exactly. It would've taken guts for the Dodgers to execute a similar trade, and we could've done it. I think LA's Suns-love has, perhaps, jumped the shark.

(Note to self: Duck! Brickbats!)

2005-11-22 12:46:55
62.   Rob M
I find Curb to be not very funny. It used to be, but it jumped the shark last year. The whole kidney story is just too much.

South Park and the Daily Show are still excellent. South Park does over-the-top much better than Curb. Did anyone catch the Scientology episode last week? With Tom Cruise locking himself "in the closet" after the reincarnation of L. Ron Hubbard (Stan) dissed his acting? And refusing to come out of the closet, or even denying that he was in there, despite the police surrounding the house and demanding he "come out." It was unbelievable. I'm glad they had the balls do that episode.

2005-11-22 12:48:06
63.   dzzrtRatt
61, 62 Looks like we're in shark-infested waters.
2005-11-22 12:49:56
64.   dzzrtRatt
South Park is the undisputed champion of comedy. Last week's episode had me on my knees in gratitude. Who else would have the nerve to pull that off? I'm far outside the South Park demographic, but I think it is the only true satire on TV now, or perhaps ever. This show will be studied 200 years from now like Voltaire or Mencken are studied today.
2005-11-22 12:50:23
65.   jasonungar05
Yeah thats a bit annoying I agree, being a history major and watching shows that are pretty true (for the most part) to history. It leaves little room for suprise. Although my wife is clueless about History (she's a CPA!) so it's fun to watch her watch it knowing that as Cesar is walking into the Senate, he is about to die and she has no clue.
2005-11-22 12:51:47
66.   jasonungar05
Oh my gosh yes, yes, yes on South Park. It is alot smarter than people give it credit for.
2005-11-22 12:52:30
67.   Rob M
61 OMG - we used Jump The Shark at almost the same moment! It's the cosmic unconsciousness.

Have you read Diuretics - the science of matter over mind?

2005-11-22 12:58:45
68.   Colorado Blue
59, 65 - Vurenus's wife didn't fare much better... that surprised me even more than Ceasar.
2005-11-22 13:15:41
69.   Penarol1916
I thought that the term jumped the shark jumped the shark back in 2003, didn't realize people still used it.
2005-11-22 13:16:18
70.   Bob Timmermann
Maybe Vorenus's wife isn't dead. Maybe she's just badly hurt. She can get some top quality medical care that ancient Rome was famous for!

I assume there will be a second season of "Rome". I think this Octavian kid has a future in politics. And we can see the return of Drug Addict Cleopatra!

2005-11-22 13:23:27
71.   saber tooth colletti
70-I think you're right about Octavian but I suspect that he'll need to change his name to appeal to the masses.
2005-11-22 13:32:00
72.   Penarol1916
I read in the New York Times last week that HBO ordered a second season of Rome after just 6 episodes, but that it still probably won't be ready until 2007.
2005-11-22 13:32:55
73.   oldbear
South Park is amazing in that they can add to the show virtually one day before it even airs. I remember 2 years ago they had an episode on that showed Saddam Hussein being pulled out of a hole, and that happened only 3 days before.

The Scientology episode was great. I liked that they put a disclaimer during the one scene that said "THIS IS WHAT SCIENTOLOGISTS REALLY BELIEVE"...

They also did a pretty good spoof of Mormons and Joseph Smith a couple seasons ago.

2005-11-22 13:33:17
74.   gcrl
i stopped watching south park after the first mr. hanky appearance. i just didn't think it could be topped.

i watched harvey birdman for the first time a couple of weeks ago, and will likely give it another shot after a hilarious episode featuring apache chief from the superfriends.

2005-11-22 13:35:25
75.   oldbear
I think the most underrated Fox show ever isnt Arrested Development.

Its "In Living Color" The comedic talent on that show was unreal. To think it started out on a small time network is even more amazing.

2005-11-22 13:37:11
76.   Spageticus
Harvey Birdman is great. Phil Ken Sebben is my personal hero.

I miss Andy Richter:
"Sorry about your mother."
Conan: "At least she died doing what she loved."
"What was that?"
"Committing suicide."

Comedy Gold

2005-11-22 13:38:46
77.   Penarol1916
The problem with In Living Color is that the early '90's style and music is just all over the place, it is just an incredibly dated show. Also, from the same era on the same channel, I much preferred Ben Stiller's sketch show, that's the DVD set that I need.
2005-11-22 13:38:46
78.   scareduck
70 - I think this Octavian kid has a future in politics.

Isn't he still getting his arm rehabbed from Tommy John surgery?

2005-11-22 13:40:27
79.   scareduck
70 - I think this Octavian kid has a future in politics.

Isn't he still getting his arm rehabbed from Tommy John surgery?

2005-11-22 13:44:05
80.   Bob Timmermann
Octavian, Mark Antony, and Lepidus will show why the Dodgers plan of a 4-headed GM won't work. Those Triumvirates didn't work.

I'm really afraid that we're going to find Roy Smith committing suicide in Cairo, Illinois.

2005-11-22 13:45:09
81.   scareduck
61 - in bizarro Dodgers world, Ned Colletti is the re-run of the 2002-2003 Dodgers, except minus the useless payroll bums (well, maybe save for Derek Lowe and maybe J.D. Drew if he isn't healthy), and no pink shirts.
2005-11-22 13:45:58
82.   scareduck
80 - why, because it would be messier if he killed himself in the Dodger clubhouse?
2005-11-22 13:49:14
83.   Rob M
Does anyone know how to email individual writers at the Times? I want to ask Tim Brown if he really believes that trading for Delgado, who is owed $48M over the next 3 years and is likely in decline, actually "fills a need" for the Dodgers. The "conventional wisdom" is driving my out of my mind.
2005-11-22 13:49:18
84.   Rob M
Does anyone know how to email individual writers at the Times? I want to ask Tim Brown if he really believes that trading for Delgado, who is owed $48M over the next 3 years and is likely in decline, actually "fills a need" for the Dodgers. The "conventional wisdom" is driving my out of my mind.
2005-11-22 13:52:21
85.   Bob Timmermann
From the LA Times website:

Times Staff
To contact a staff member by e-mail, please compose an e-mail to them using this address format:

2005-11-22 14:00:52
86.   Rob M
thank you.
2005-11-22 14:03:58
87.   Bob Timmermann
You're welcome.

I advocate being polite and reasonable and not overly emotional if you want a reply.

2005-11-22 14:07:27
88.   jasonungar05
while your at it. (if you just ate, don't read below)

The Dodgers have an interest in Delgado, a power-hitting first baseman they lack, and they have plenty of highly regarded young players in their farm system to put together an attractive package.

Vincent Bonsignore
LA Daily News

2005-11-22 14:14:35
89.   trainwreck
The Marlins want to trade Delgado in a salary dump move, so I really do not think a team has to give up a lot to get him. I bet we would not even have to give up one of the Holy Three (Guzman, Billingsley, and LaRoche) in order to get Delgado. I know Delgado costs a lot nad is in his thirties, but he produces. He just switched leagues this year and moved to a pitchers' park and had a better season. I do not think there is a chance we pick him up unless McCourt is raising payroll, so it might be a good sign that we acquire him. I do not think the Four Horseman (Colletti, Ng, Smith,White) would take on such a big contract with a real limited budget.
2005-11-22 14:15:23
90.   Sam DC
This cracked me up, maybe it will cheer someone else up. Danica Patrick just got married, somewhat oddly to a physical therapist 17 years her senior. Whatever. Amusing to me was, first, not only is she a superbabe that drives race cars, apparently she's a TV junkie and loves barbecue (OK, and she loves to work out). Scratch that last one, and it's hard to imagine more of a guy's gal than Ms. Patrick (if that's still her name). Second, while her job is driving race cars 200 mph around a walled concrete track, the injury that sent her to said heartthrob physical therapist was not suffered while racing: "Patrick met Hospenthal while seeking treatment for a hip injury from a yoga session."

2005-11-22 14:17:11
91.   scanderbeg
88 - Phew! I thought the Dodgers had lost their chance at an overpaid Marlin whose career was clearly in decline when Lowell went to Boston. What a relief! At least the Dodgers have plenty of cheap, disposable talent in the minors they can dump in order to get Delgado. Maybe Coletti can work a deal w/ the D-Backs for the return of Shawn Green, so that the best friends can be reunited.
2005-11-22 14:25:09
92.   saber tooth colletti
Flash forward to 2008:

FLA: Billingsly, 8.0 ip, 11ks

LAD: Delgado, 0-4 3ks

2005-11-22 14:26:16
93.   Bob Timmermann
Why would Carlos Delgado hit any better in L.A. than in Florida? He would get a few more homers. I suppose he would enjoy perspiring less.
2005-11-22 14:26:56
94.   Penarol1916
92. Does Broxton get the save in that scenario as well?
2005-11-22 14:28:46
95.   Jon Weisman
90 - If you could only marry one Danica, which would you pick: Patrick or McKellar? Give me Winnie Cooper anytime.
2005-11-22 14:29:21
96.   GoBears
I am either optimistic, or in denial, about Choi. I'm hoping that Colletti makes his "big name" addition in LF, or SP, or, if it's a short-term deal, at 3b. That while he'd like to improve at 1b, he'll realize that the marginal value of a dollar there (over Choi) is very small. Would Delgado put up better numbers that Choi for the next year or two? Probably, but not by enough to warrant the price tag. So I'm cautiously optimistic that Choi will play a lot of 1b, by default, next year. And if not that, maybe he can be the key to a trade for a top-line SP. Oakland?

I assume that the manager will be a re-tread - just not one who is hostile to young players, I hope.

2005-11-22 14:32:02
97.   Rob M
87 Thanks for the tip, but I'm an old hand at this. I'm trying to persuade, not berate. I had a lengthy back and forth with Plaschke in the spring. I often write to news columnists as well.
2005-11-22 14:33:25
98.   Bob Timmermann
Danica McKellar would be too smart for me. Danica Patrick would be too shallow and would drive too fast.
2005-11-22 14:35:53
99.   Ken Arneson
Hospenthal (Danica Patrick's husband) has worked closely with several A's players in the past. He helped Mark Ellis work through his severe labrum tear. Judging by Ellis' remarkable recovery last year, he must be very good at his job.

Patrick threw out the first pitch at an A's game last year.

2005-11-22 14:37:15
100.   saber tooth colletti
94: FLA: Broxton, 1IP, 3ks
FLA: Kemp, 3-4, 2hrs

LAD: Pierre, 1-4, 1sb

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2005-11-22 14:37:42
101.   trainwreck
I am not saying he would. I just said he hit better this past season at Dolphins Stadium than SkyDome. Let's be honest does anyone really think Choi is going to get a chance haha?
2005-11-22 14:37:50
102.   Peanuts in My Shoes
92 More likely in 2008:

LV: Billingsly, 8.0 ip, 11ks

LAD: Delgado, 0-4 3ks

2005-11-22 14:38:56
103.   Bob Timmermann
As someone who is about to turn 40, the concept of being married to someone 23 seems really odd to me as I can't imagine what I would talk to the woman about. I also don't know if I would want to go out with a 23-year old who was interested in someone like me.

It's the Timmermann Paradox. Hence I go out with someone who is 41.

2005-11-22 14:40:58
104.   Eric L
95 I ran into Winnie Cooper at a bar a few years back in Upland. She was doing some community theater thing there and I must say that she still looked wonderful.

I always thought she was super cute on "The Wonder Years" and she grew into a very hot young woman. I think most guys in my age group (now the late 20s, early 30s) had some sort of crush on her when we were kids.

2005-11-22 14:41:14
105.   Sam DC
95 Well, I guess I'd need to know if she'd be happy sitting around watching TV and eating barbecue.

98 Maybe it's like you and the Library Thing. When not at the office, don't live like the office.

2005-11-22 14:44:17
106.   Penarol1916
104. As someone who's 28 I never had a crush on Winnie Cooper. Her character always seemed really stuck up and that just wasn't able to make up for her moderate level of hotness.
2005-11-22 14:45:26
107.   Eric L
103 As someone who is going to turn 29 in a few months, a 23 year old doesn't appeal to me very much either. Someone who is in their 40s is literally old enough to be her dad.

Heck, I can see the generational (is that word?) shift between my brother's friends and myself and I'm only 4 years older than him.

I guess that's probably why my girlfriend is only 18 months younger than me.

2005-11-22 14:46:34
108.   Eric L
106 Yeah, but the grown up Winnie Cooper was super hot and smart.
2005-11-22 14:51:00
109.   gvette
103--Bob, had dinner in Old Town Pasadena last week with a friend and his new fiance; He's 46, she's 22, cute and worships the ground that he walks on. Why ask why?

95--Most definitely Danica Patrick over Winnie; basically for those days when she can help get my problematic 70 Vette started.

2005-11-22 14:52:41
110.   Jon Weisman
106 - You can't have watched the show from the beginning, then. She had the most tragic story of any character on the show. Aside from her older brother, that is.
2005-11-22 14:55:26
111.   Bob Timmermann
I grew up the youngest of four brothers and had parents who gave birth to me at a relatively old age for the era (my mother was 36 when I was born).

My demographics have always skewed older because I've always had people older than me around.

Once in college, I went out with a woman 2 years younger than me. That's about my limit. She was (and still is) a lot smarter than me, so I was able to carry on a conversation with her. Until she lost me when the topic turned to Chaucer.

2005-11-22 14:56:22
112.   Penarol1916
108. But what does that have to do with having a crush on her as a kid?
Since you were also born in '77 you must know, we are really belong to no generation, too young to be Generation X, too old for the Generation Y's or Busters, thus we are in a unique point of people on either side of us being from a completely different generation. Hell, my wife is 31 and it's like a completely different world. I think I'm just her boytoy.
2005-11-22 14:57:04
113.   Rob M
As someone who is going to turn 38 in a few months, I can very easily see the appeal of a hot 23 year old. But I guess that's just me.
2005-11-22 14:57:26
114.   Colorado Blue
103 - eh, I'm 7 years older than my wife... I was 24 and she was 17 when we met. We got married 6 years later. Had our 11th Wedding Anniversary in July.

The best part is that as the age difference became less meaningful the closer in age we became. We know share the common battle of raising kids and really cherishing the 5 minutes a day we have alone!

2005-11-22 14:58:24
115.   Eric L
The Wonder Years was a neat show. My parents were able to indentify with it because they were growing up at about the same time as Kevin and Winnie (though they were a bit older).

At the same time, I was able to indentify with it because I was about the same age as Kevin and Winnie even though I was from a different generation.

2005-11-22 14:58:28
116.   Penarol1916
110. I did, that show and The Cosby Show were the only primetime shows that I watched religiously at that time. The tragedy does not change the impression that she was stuck up.
2005-11-22 14:59:02
117.   SMY
A curse on whoever is holding up "The Complete Wonder Years" on DVD (music rights, I think).
2005-11-22 14:59:21
118.   Bob Timmermann
It's all matter of ratios and not absolute values when it comes to ages in couples.
2005-11-22 14:59:56
119.   Colorado Blue
114 - Uh, boy did I screw that last paragraph up; but you get the jist.
2005-11-22 15:01:10
120.   King of the Hobos
Gurnick says Guzman hasn't looked comfortable at 3B or 1B in the DR in his latest mailbag. While I have no idea how he would know, it does help Guzman's chances to stay a SS (or become an OF I guess)
2005-11-22 15:01:26
121.   TheDictator
A little help needed. I asked this on the last thread, someone tried to help but was unaware of my question, but it has never gotten an answer.

What are all these comments/jokes regarding Tommy Lasorda and the waiver wire or is it player options all about?


2005-11-22 15:01:53
122.   Bob Timmermann

Perhaps one of you has managed to stop time. Or else I need to reread the "Picture of Colorado Blue".

2005-11-22 15:03:53
123.   Eric L
112 It just reinforced the idea that I thought she was cute when I was a kid and she turned into a super hottie as a grown-up.

You're in the same boat as my best friend. As we were growing up listening to music like Alice in Chains, the black album version of Metallica, Pearl Jam, Ice Cube, Dre, et al his wife (she turned 30 last May) was still listening to Motley Crue and Poison. "Grunge" (a totally useless description) had a hold on us, while he wife was still listening to the hair band stuff.

2005-11-22 15:04:54
124.   Steve
Ned Colletti is 50, Juan Pierre is 41, so it happens.
2005-11-22 15:06:35
125.   gvette
121--You're probably referring to the Jeff Shaw trade debacle where Lasorda got his closer in exchange for his best prospect.

What Lasorda didn't know was that as a veteran, Shaw had an opt out right to declare himself a free agent, forcing the Dodgers to ante up too much money to keep their rather ordinary relief ace.

2005-11-22 15:07:38
126.   gcrl
121 - not sure, but it could be tommy's ignorance of player's rights during his reign as gm. he didn't know that one of the players he traded for could demand a trade or exercise some sort of "out", iirc.
2005-11-22 15:09:41
127.   SMY
After a visit to Winnie's website, I will have to put myself in the pro-hot camp.

2005-11-22 15:09:59
128.   Jon Weisman
116 - But if you know the backstory (her brother's death, her parents' disintegrating marriage), and if you saw how it pushed through her consistently throughout the show's run, then you know that she's not really stuck up - she's really battling all these inner demons and trying to put a wall in front of her vulnerability.

So while one might have gotten a momentary impression that she was stuck up, with that knowledge, it shouldn't be a lasting impression.

Stuck up, to me, implies feeling superior - which is very far from what Winnie actually felt.

2005-11-22 15:13:16
129.   Bob Timmermann
Ms. McKellar has interesting questions she answers from fans:

Q: I have a calculus question for you: Gravel is being dumped from a conveyor belt at a rate of 30 ft-cubed/min and its coarseness is such that it forms a pile in the shape of a cone whose base diameter and height are always equal. How fast is the height of the pile increasing when the pile is 10 ft high?

Danica Answers: Okay, this is a typical "related rates" problem, and it's a good problem to understand for ALL related rates problems in first year calculus. We need the RATE of the changing height at a certain point in time. We're told the RATE of the changing volume (30 ft-cubed/min). So we will need to "relate" the "rates" of the height and the volume. So we need to FIRST write down an equation that determines:

1) The relationship between the VALUES of the heights and volumes, h and V.

And then we'll take the DERIVATIVE of this equation, which will then give us:

2) The relationship between the RATES of these values, dh/dt and dV/dt.

When determining this first, important, equation between the VALUES of height and volume, always start with what you know.

Well, we know that for every cone,
V = (1/3)h(pi)r2.
Additionally, we are told that for THIS cone, the diameter, which equals 2r, is always equal to the height. So we know that r = h/2. Plug this in for r, and we get:
V = (1/12)(pi)h3.

This is our important equation #1 relating VALUES. Now, to get the #2 "related rates" equation, we must take the derivative of the entire thing with respect to time, t. Don't forget to use the chain rule!

dV/dt = (1/12)(pi)3h2dh/dt

Now remember that this equation, as it's written, is true for ALL moments in time. And now let's consider the moment in time that we were asked about: the moment when the height = 10ft. So, at that moment, we can plug in h = 10. We also know dV/dt; we were told in the problem that the "rate the volume is increasing" is constant. It's 30 ft-cubed/min. So we can certainly plug that value in for this moment in time. Now the only variable left is dh/dt—the rate that the height is growing. And when we solve for it with simple algebra, we've solved the problem! (You should get dh/dt = 6/(5pi) ft/min.)

2005-11-22 15:15:15
130.   TheDictator
125 & 126

Thank you very much for the info. I figured it had something to do with Konerko but was not sure what.


2005-11-22 15:17:35
131.   SMY
So she's hot, was on a cool TV show, and is a stat geek?
2005-11-22 15:17:41
132.   Rob M
Winnie's jaw is way to strong for me. She falls into the almost hot category, but kinda weird looking too, like Britany Spears (now she's full on gutter trash, but she was a sex symbol a few years ago, remember?) I could never get over the fact that Brittany's eyes are so far apart. They are on opposite sides of her head. Like a fish, or a bird.
2005-11-22 15:18:03
133.   Bob Timmermann
And if I still subscribed to the Times, I would have known that last weekend, Danica McKellar was featured in the incredibly inane "My Favorite Weekend". Doesn't anyone have a weekend where they do stuff like clean their home, do laundry and watch TV?
2005-11-22 15:19:06
134.   Bob Timmermann
From "My Favorite Weekend" 11/17/05
Danica McKellar
After that I'd go shopping at Whole Foods, where they have things like cage-free chicken breasts that can make you feel a little bit better about what you're eating. I'd go home and cook something simple, but I also always check my website to see if anyone's sent me a math problem to solve. I'll look at it and everything else gets eclipsed. I can't resist a math problem.
2005-11-22 15:20:40
135.   Jon Weisman
129 - You missed the baseball question:

Q: I think you are great on "The West Wing" and I just saw you on NYPD Blue! This may be more of a physics question, but I was curious- a friend of mine was talking about an outfielder who could throw a ball from the outfield, have it go no higher than head height, and reach the catcher at home. It seemed IMPOSSIBLE but then I started thinking about the viability of this being possible. Can you help?

Here are the assumptions:

The outfielder (pt. A) and home plate (pt. B) are 180 feet apart (roughly twice the distance from home plate to 1st base).
The ball is released from a height of 6 feet.
The ball travels along a curved path (pulled down by the force of gravity (32 ft/sec2)).
It reaches home plate at ground level after not traveling at any time above 8 ft above the ground (roughly head height for the tallest human).
An official baseball weighs 5 ozs. (although I'm not sure if that's relevant.) Thanks!
Danica Answers: A Hi there! Alright, let's solve this. Some physics and algebra knowledge is definitely needed to make it through this proof. I'm going to skip most of the algebra steps, assuming you can do those on your own if you like. So don't be discouraged if you don't follow it all- I answer all sorts of levels of problems on this site. :)

First we will assume that there is no wind drag-- just to simplify things. You are right that (with no wind velocity) the weight of the ball does not matter.

What we will do is find out what the velocity of the ball would have to be in order for this hypothetical situation to be possible, and then see if a human is capable of it. So, the way we do this is to first find out how long the ball would be in the air. (it will be clear "why" later) I recommend drawing a diagram just to make it clear to yourself. One thing to remember is that we can treat the up/down component of velocity separately from the side to side component of velocity.

First, looking only at the up/down motion: The ball gets thrown in the air from 6 ft, goes to 8ft, and then down to 0ft. (the ground). The equation for the height change of the ball (when it starts with zero velocity) is:

H = (1/2)gt2

You can find this equation in any elementary physics book. g= the acceleration of gravity, which is 32ft/sec2. (or 9.8 meters/sec2) First let's see the time it takes for a ball to reach the ground, when dropped from a height of 8ft. Since it starts with zero velocity, we can use this formula. Solving for "t" when "H" = 8ft, using basic algebra, we get approx. .707 of a second. Since when the ball is arcing across the baseball field, its up/down velocity is zero at the point when it hits 8ft, this .707 of a second also represents the time it takes the ball to go from the highest point of its arc, to the ground. If that sounds completely foreign, there's a great lesson on this concept at:

So now we need the first part: the time it takes the ball to go from the pitcher's hand to the highest point of its arc (8ft). Since the ball reaches an up/down velocity of zero at its highest point (meaning that the vertical component of its velocity is zero at that moment), and because the only external force acting on the ball's up/down velocity is gravity, this would be the same amount of time it would take for the ball to be dropped from 8ft, and have it caught by someone at the height of 6ft.

So now, using the same above formula, we'd say that the change in height, H, equals 2ft. And solving for "t" we get approx. .354 of a second.

So now we know, that in this hypothetical situation, the ball is in the air for approx. 1.061 seconds and travels for 180 feet. So how fast would the ball have to be going? It's a simple rt = d problem. Solving for r, the rate, we get approx. 169.65ft/sec. Using the conversions 3600sec = 1 hour, and 5280ft = 1 mile, we get the rate of approx. 115.7 mph.

115.7 mph? Hm. And that's WITHOUT drag. If there were drag, the ball would be slowing down throughout its journey, so the initial throw would have to be FASTER than this. I've checked the Guiness Book of World Records and it seems that the fastest anyone's ever thrown a baseball was 100.9 mph by Lynn Nolan Ryan (California Angels) at Anaheim Stadium in California on August 20, 1974.

As was pointed out by one reader, (Thanks, Alan!) if we assume that the thrower dropped his arm down as he let go of the ball at a height of 4ft, then the thrower would only have to throw the ball with a speed of approx. 101.9 mph. I would have assumed it to be harder to throw a ball with incredible speed from far below shoulder height, but perhaps it's easier. I certainly know more about math than I do about baseball! Of course, you could also run these numbers using a very short (but fast) pitcher. Assume the guy (or gal) is only 5 ft. tall; then a 4 ft release point becomes even more feasible. Experiment, and have fun discovering what math can tell you!

2005-11-22 15:22:44
136.   natepurcell
so did the beckett trade actually go through yet?
2005-11-22 15:23:05
137.   Bob Timmermann
I have a feeling that Danica McKellar would love to have a guest spot on "Numb3rs", but I wonder if she could act the part of a math whiz.

I saw David Krumholtz being interviewed about the show. I think his math skills are at a Plaschkean level.

2005-11-22 15:23:12
138.   SMY
I looked around to see if she was a Dodger fan and couldn't find anything, but I still think I'd rather have her as GM than Colletti.
2005-11-22 15:24:25
139.   Jon Weisman
135 - That Lynn Nolan Ryan was a heck of a pitcher, by the way.
2005-11-22 15:25:27
140.   J Rebel
127 Thanks for the heads up! Forgot what she looked like.

For the fans, I'll share something you may not want to open at work...

Google image search is the best.

Back to Dodgers talk. All this anxiety about dealing our prospects has me thinking about the probability of our prospects never panning out. The ones that do make something of themselves and get dealt do sting, but Bill Simmons' comments re: the Beckett, Lowell deal (reason 10) have me thinking.

Considering our example of Edwin Jackson's current "lowered" value, why not sell a few prospects "high" for a couple of vets?

2005-11-22 15:29:22
141.   Clive Clements
29 Absolutely agree w/ Freaks and Geeks. It's one of my favorite shows ever - I'm so crazy about it that I bought the limited edition yearbook DVD set, the script books, and both of Paul Feig's books.

Re: Andy Richter Controls the Universe - It was a potentially great idea that was dumbed down for a general audience. The flashbacks were usually great, but they relied on this formula too much: 1) Andy is thinking this, 2) What if it went this way?, 3) This is how it really went. They should've just stuck to the first 2 and not included the actual explanation. Then it could've been like a live action version of Family Guy, but actually funny.*

*I liked the Family Guy on its first run, but after watching a few of the new episodes, I realize how much they rely on "Hey, remember this from the 70s or 80s?" and awkward silences for 95% of their jokes.

2005-11-22 15:32:40
142.   Vishal
[127] she answers math and physics questions on her website! that's so awesome.
2005-11-22 15:33:20
143.   Vishal
haha, looks like i'm late to the party, and you guys found it already. i was busy reading the questions :)
2005-11-22 15:42:18
144.   sanchez101
140. As much as i like our prospects, I agree with you. Not everyone is going to turn out. The greatness of the Braves has been their ability to trade the prospects that dont turn into much, and keep the guys that do. I think the fear around here is that we end up seeing another pedro-delino or konero-shaw deal. With the mccourts and the unknown Colletti in charge, I wouldnt be terribly suprised to see laroche traded for blalock or something like that.
2005-11-22 15:44:54
145.   Dagwood
140. I have to agree with this. Remember when we had the best pitching in the majors but no bats and yet Evans said Jackson and Miller were untouchable? If we had traded them for productive bats and made an admirable post-season run (admittedly big if), would we still be talking about the lack of stability in the organization? Prospects are only that and perhaps we should stop trying to hold on to all the marbles.
2005-11-22 15:48:08
146.   Scanman33
Wouldn't the fact that Black worked w/ Depodesta in Cleveland's front office be held against him if McCourt is trying to purge himself of the PDP Era?
2005-11-22 15:49:45
147.   trainwreck
If that were the case he would have fired Roy Smith who was hired by DePo.
2005-11-22 15:50:41
148.   Brent is a Dodger Fan
Holy smokes. I thought you all were joking about Danica's math skills. Well, you learn something new every day.

I was about to praise Bob T for his absurd and brilliant humor, but I guess he only made me drop my pen with laughter once (not twice) this thread.

2005-11-22 15:56:45
149.   Scanman33
147-True enough, but Colletti's only been on the job for a week. But I would think in terms of hiring people, he would get away from the "PDP types" to bring in more "baseball" guys (although Smith pitched in the bigs for years).
2005-11-22 15:59:58
150.   regfairfield
When was the last time a "can't miss prospect" turned out well for the Dodgers? We traded the ones that actually worked out (Konerko, Pedro) and we kept the ones that were horrid (Billy Ashley, Karim Garcia). I'm considering Beltre a draw here.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2005-11-22 16:00:13
151.   D4P
I'm not totally convinced that McCourt is diametrically opposed to Depo's philosophy. I don't think Sabremetrics is what got Depo fired. I think it was his personality (or lack thereof).
2005-11-22 16:00:37
152.   Scanman33
Do the Dodgers realize that once they go Black, they can't go back?

And do you suppose Black would tell Milton, "As long as I'm me, I'm fine"?

2005-11-22 16:05:10
153.   D4P
How long have you been waiting to use those?
2005-11-22 16:07:04
154.   Scanman33
It actually just hit me.
2005-11-22 16:07:27
155.   King of the Hobos
McCourt wanted Epstein, so I have to agree with 51. I really don't think Colletti was hired because he was a baseball man, he's just very good with the media. Until we hire Fregosi, sign Jacque Jones, and trade Billingsley, Guzman, and Laroche for Pierre and Delgado, I have no reason to believe Colletti is anything more than a figurehead for the media.
2005-11-22 16:08:53
156.   Rob M
150 Gagne. He was a pretty big prospect.
2005-11-22 16:09:21
157.   underdog
141. Count me as another Freaks N Geeks freak, with the box set and yearbook. I love that show so much I started watching How I Met Your Mother just because one of the freaks was in it. (It's actually a surprisingly good show...)

I must say, the Arrested Development is to Stacked as DePodesta is to Colletti argument seems a little bit of a stretch ;-) but I understand what you're feeling. And I, too, would be very remiss to see AD cancelled, but as with Freaks and Geeks and other shows, it just seems par for the course that the most brilliant shows will never last - either because the execs, or the majority of this country's Nielsen families, are less brilliant. I do also wonder how long the show can sustain its manic pace and level of comic brilliance. Just as some other shows - like the West Wing (which is now pretty good again) and a few others burned out their brilliant creators. Who is to say if AD didn't last 7 seasons it wouldn't be as genius as it is now, but I have my doubts that anything could sustain such a level. But then again... would be nice to have the chance to prove it!

As for baseball, I am still in the "hope the Dodgers err on the side of caution" side of things regarding trades, but it does seem that not every prospect will pan out or have a place with the Dodgers so... we'll see. There are a few guys I consider untouchable that I hope they agree with me on.


2005-11-22 16:09:28
158.   FirstMohican
I'm a little late to the conversation but I'll add my assumption as to why shows like AD get cancelled.

The one episode I saw of AD I liked. Thought it was funny, and wouldn't mind seeing it again. Problem is, 99% of the time that I turn on my TV, it's for Dodgers, Lakers, or to watch a DVD. That type of humor, that level of television (whatever you want to call it) is appreciated by a certain group that I suppose I belong to. But being that I don't watch TV, maybe a large section of that group doesn't either.

Shows like The Simpsons seem to have clever humor, mixed with the Sideshow-Bob-steps-on-a-series-of-rakes humor that probably makes the majority of its viewers laugh. So while stimulating viewers with high humor standards, they're also throwing bones to the baseball-in-the-ballsack crowd. I didn't watch AD enough to know if they did the same thing, but maybe they didn't, and maybe that's why it's not on anymore.

2005-11-22 16:12:35
159.   regfairfield
156 That works. We got off the Prokopec bandwagon just in time too.
2005-11-22 16:13:58
160.   Steve
The issue's not what you give; it's what you get back.
2005-11-22 16:18:08
161.   Vishal
[160] exactly. c-bills and andy laroche for johan santana? done.
2005-11-22 16:18:44
162.   Dagwood
160. Absolutely. And the idea that the only good trade is one where you manage to pull a fast one on somebody is erroneous. You always pay - either in dollars or talent.
2005-11-22 16:18:56
163.   regfairfield
158 Arrested Development does just enough slapstick to the point where I am guaranteed to laugh whenever it occurs. (Tobias attempting to float off the balcony wins here. Probably the second most I've ever laughed at Arrested Development, right after the first time I heard "that's why you don't teach your son lessons.")

Considering Arrested Development requires you to give it your undivided attention to really get everything out of it, combined with a large amount of self refferential humor, it's not all the surprising it can't find an audience. (A complete lack of advertising certainly doesn't help.)

2005-11-22 16:25:36
164.   D4P
Plus, McCourt and Flanders had instant chemistry.
2005-11-22 16:40:09
165.   Sam DC
Well, barbecue aside, it's clear which Danica rules Dodger Thoughts.
2005-11-22 16:44:33
166.   Steve
If you get back Mike Lowell, it's a bad trade. QED.
2005-11-22 16:46:21
167.   Vishal
[166] what if you can ship mike lowell to the twins in return for say, scott baker and half lowell's salary?
2005-11-22 16:48:29
168.   regfairfield
167 What's in it for the Twins?
2005-11-22 16:51:57
169.   Vishal
i dunno. not every trade is win-win, though. there's always another sucker, is all i'm saying. not that the twins are necessarily suckers, but it was just an example. i picked them because they'd been rumored to be interested in lowell already.
2005-11-22 16:58:20
170.   natepurcell
i think Zito will be the other big name pitcher to be traded this offseason.

Beckett garnered two top prospects while being attached to an albatross. Zito, without deadweight attached to him, is probably going to get beane 3 top prospects.

it'll be interesting to see which team pushes hard for zito.

2005-11-22 17:01:20
171.   Vishal
[170] i hope it's not to a team i despise. zito is my favorite active starting pitcher.
2005-11-22 17:02:30
172.   Granfallooner
First post--couldn't resist:

My wife is seven years younger, and smarter AND hotter than both Danicas. Wait, now I sound stuck up....

How's this: my wife is smarter than me and Guzman is worth like a zillion times more as shortstop than as an outfielder.

Still can't believe DePo and Sports Night are both gone. McCourt is an a-hole, which looks like this: *

2005-11-22 17:03:03
173.   Rob M
I'm surprised that Steve hasn't come around on Lowell as a part of a reasonable cost for a #1 starter of Beckett's caliber. Even if Billingley and Jackson pan out, neither one may ever get to Beckett's level. Or it could take them another 5 years. Bonderman just had his first good year, he was a similar level prospect, and he's still not THAT good. He may be a few years away still. A guy like Beckett is just too good and too rare to pass up.
2005-11-22 17:04:57
174.   Granfallooner
Doesn't Zito to the Dodgers make sense: established, name player for a bunch of guys we suddenly don't like (Choi, A. Perez, anyone with discipline)? Beane would rake us.
2005-11-22 17:05:17
175.   Jon Weisman
172 - But is her name Danica?
2005-11-22 17:06:09
176.   scanderbeg
172 - Vonnegut fan?
2005-11-22 17:06:22
177.   natepurcell
if it was just beckett by himself, i would be tempted to give up a reasonable amount more.
2005-11-22 17:08:09
178.   Granfallooner
175 - Touche and great site. I came here for refuge from the LAT. By the way, I noticed some posters have politely linked their posts to the one that they are referencing. How to do this?
2005-11-22 17:09:06
179.   natepurcell
zito to the dodgers make tons of sense:

-zito is 26, prime years ahead of him
-zito is from socal, went to USC
-zito is a workhorse, and proven pitcher, a solid #2, #1 in some years
-zito suppresses hits, combined with DS's ability to suppress hits, its a perfect match

2005-11-22 17:09:46
180.   Granfallooner
176 - good eye, scanderbag, though the name was too straightforward. But apropos. Especially in light of bokonon dropping his nom de plume. Too Frech-y?
2005-11-22 17:10:36
181.   scanderbeg
177 - But if you could get anything for Lowell to the Twins, (along w/ giving up less to the Marlins) including Lowell would make perfect sense for the recipient in that deal.

I would tend to believe that the Twins are susceptible (correct spelling?) to former-steroid users gone bad.

See: Bret Boone

2005-11-22 17:10:45
182.   Granfallooner
180 - Um, French-y, I mean.
2005-11-22 17:12:15
183.   scanderbeg
180 - I was tempted to have my DT name be "The Gutless Wonder"
2005-11-22 17:12:25
184.   Vishal
[174] people keep mentioning choi-to-the-A's, but i don't see it happening. why would the A's need another left-handed bat, and at first base no less? they already have dan johnson at first base, and swisher has spent some time there... plus they have daric barton waiting in the wings. they have absolutely no need for choi. what they need is a right-handed power bat.
2005-11-22 17:13:23
185.   natepurcell
im surprised marlins didnt ask for arroyo, i thought they were high on him.
2005-11-22 17:13:55
186.   Bob Timmermann
To link to an earlier comment
bracket - number - bracket (not parentheses)

I should mention that when it comes to telling your significant other about his/her level of intelligence there is no way to phrase that without being rude.

I'm described as being "f------ brilliant" and I always make sure that it's not being sad ironically.

2005-11-22 17:14:00
187.   Vishal
[178] place [brackets] around the number. i tend to place two sets of brackets because i think it looks cleaner that way.
2005-11-22 17:14:47
188.   Granfallooner
Is Scanderbeg available to manage?
2005-11-22 17:15:35
189.   Bob Timmermann
And in 186 I meant "said" instead of "sad".
2005-11-22 17:16:58
190.   scanderbeg
188 - McCourt couldn't afford me.
2005-11-22 17:17:12
191.   Bob Timmermann
On my RSS feed for CNN, there is a story that is headlined "Indy queen to wed" and I thought it was going to be about Parker Posey instead of the aforementioned Ms. Patrick.
2005-11-22 17:17:23
192.   Jon Weisman
Brief new thread up top.
2005-11-22 17:17:29
193.   Sam DC
Granfallooner -- let me say welcome, from a fellow fan of Billy Pilgrim. To link prior comments you put the comment number inside square brackets. [ 178 ] (without the spaces). I think bokonon42 dropped his screen name because Vonnegut made some controversial statements that have been interpreted as supporting or praising suicide bombers and terrorists. (And also, I gather, because he just wanted to come out, as it were.)
2005-11-22 17:19:21
194.   underdog
[186] But has anyone described you as those two words in quotes, reversed? I haven't either, but that'd be cool.

Ryne Sandberg?
What about Ed Vandeberg?

2005-11-22 17:21:40
195.   Granfallooner
190 (too close to link, no?) But you're like 600 years old or something right? How did you do with Albania? They sound small market.
2005-11-22 17:25:52
196.   Vishal
how did everyone know that it was bokonon42 when he posted under his real name? unless he had already announced the switch somewhere and i missed it.
2005-11-22 17:35:16
197.   Andrew Shimmin
186- I was once described as, "a f------ genius," which made me very happy, until I determined that it wasn't meant literally. I still like to think I have a certain flair for it. . .
2005-11-22 17:35:58
198.   Sam DC
Vishal -- he did describe the change in the Hee-Seop Thanksgiving comment thread.
2005-11-22 17:46:23
199.   trainwreck
Zito first went to UCSB. Go Gauchos...uggh we suck at baseball.
2005-11-22 17:48:54
200.   GoBears
179 Actually, Zito was born May 1978. So he's 27, and will be 28 early next season. At least according to ESPN.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2005-11-22 17:51:40
201.   natepurcell
Zito first went to UCSB. Go Gauchos...uggh we suck at baseball.

thats probably why he transffered to SC :)

2005-11-22 17:55:03
202.   trainwreck
Probably. Or he missed hanging out with other Republicans (got to be more at SC). Michael Young is all ours though.
2005-11-22 19:02:40
203.   CanuckDodger
173 -- "Even if Billingsley and Jackson pan out, neither one may ever get to Beckett's level."

And what level is that? Chronic underachiever who can't throw 180 innings in the bigs and goes on the DL 9 separate times in a three-and-a-half-year MLB career? I would be very surprised if Billingsley does not easily exceed Beckett's "level." For all his raw talent, Beckett was always a sore-armed pitcher (even in the minors) and he has never changed that. (Beckett's annual blisters a la Ismael Valdes in his Dodger days just makes Beckett's terrible health record even more colorful. J.D Drew is Cal Ripken compared to Beckett.) By contrast, Billingsley has never had a sore arm at all but still has wicked stuff. Jackson remains very likely to become a qualtity starting pitcher, even if he does not become an ace. Jackson is still younger than the ages at which Randy Johnson and Tim Hudson even made it to Double A. What is being posted about our prospects in this thread is pretty ridiculous. Likening our prospects to garbage from the Red Sox 1990's farm system? To minor league bums like Billy Ashley and Karim Garcia? One does not even know where to begin.

2005-11-22 19:46:33
204.   alnyden
I think baseball is more like politics than we care to admit. In 1992 Bill Clinton won the election and immediately pushed for gays in the military. Now, I'm all for gays in the military, getting married, and everything else. But politically, it was a disaster. He mobilized his opponents, turned moderates against him and prevented him from accomplishing anything else for years.

Luckily for Bill, he had a guarantee of 4 years, so he had time to fix his mistakes. Paul didn't have that chance, and I think trading LaDuca was his gays in the military.

Paul traded the most popular player on a team that was in first place and had "magic" written all over them, and in doing so, turned the fans against him. Fans like me, who were emotional and angry. With rational hindsight, I can see why the trade makes sense. But I couldn't back then.

I think Bill Clinton, if he could do it again, would wait until he was more popular before pushing something like gays in the military, and I'd be willing to bet that Paul Depodesta would give just about anything to take back that fateful trade. He lost all his political capitol, and in the end, prevented him from achieving his larger vision.

2005-11-22 20:03:09
205.   coachjpark
204 Trading LoDuca seems a bit more like Clinton's universal healthcare plan that failed miserably, whereas trading Dave Roberts was more like Clinton's "gays in the military" thingie
2005-11-22 20:10:02
206.   Sushirabbit
Ah, to be Charlie Langelia...

I disagree with all those hosing beckett as like JD Drew, guys go down all the time unexpectedly, what about wood, or penny last year? Are those guys worthless? Like most I'd like to hold on to some people, but Beckett is tempting if for his SO/BB alone.

I never really liked AD. When Seinfeld was on I never had the time to watch it, now I can tivo it or buy the DVDs. I think shows like that will be more directly distributed very soon. We just might pay more for them, but I'm not opposed to paying for entertainment that I really like-- just think of the cost of Dodger tickets.

Also, I agree about the politics being more significant. I think there is a LOT more unpredictability than some people here realize. That alone maybe why so many "old school" guys discount pure stat heads... they may have seen thousands of guys, some of whom were statistically consistent for a time, but somehow the scout "knew" they were flawed; since so few guys are going to succeed, the "knowledge" gets re-inforced. It's all an expensive crap-shoot, I mean really who the hell knew Kent would have the kind of season he did?

2005-11-23 07:03:24
207.   rageon
There's too many posts to try to reference by number, so I'll just rant:

- AD is a show that people who like similiar shows to me tend to like, although I just never got into it.

- South Park is genius. I was worried that the movie would be peak for the show, but it's gotten even better each year. And the speed at which they turn out shows is incredible. My pick for best episode is probably "Christian Rock Hard."

- episode for me is "The Switch." The line by George, "Do you ever get down on your knees and thank God you have access to me and my dementia?" is a classic.

- With Simpsons starting to become a cliche of itself, Family Guy has passed it and is the only show right now in the same ballpark as Southpark.

- People had a conversation about childhood crushes on young acctresses and didn't mention Tiffany Amber Thiessen? Every guy my age will always have a thing for her.

2005-11-23 11:51:03
208.   norog
I, as a longtime Dodger fan, follow the team to urge and root on certain players that I enjoy watching. When a newcomer such as DePodesta (out of McCourt) comes on and creates chaos by the wholesale dumping of all the fan favorites, irrespective of their ability or salary demands, just to prove he's boss..... that man deserves to go!!!
I had sunk to following Tracy and then he was gone!!!! At the end of last year I was reading the newspaper to find out about last nights game...even though I get them all on cable FREE, I couldn't watch...there was no one there I cared about!!! I've followed the Dodgers since 1958...but it's taken McCourt, that money hungry a.....e only two years to break my habit!!! The man's a t..d!!!

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