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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
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4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
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'The Office,' the Dodgers and the Relevance of Competency
2005-12-08 09:43
by Jon Weisman

The team in Scranton was in revolt, and the fans watching on television were once again agape. Already the standard bearer for bad leadership, Michael Scott, anti-hero, had taken it to an unprecedented low, destroying the Dunder Mifflin Christmas party and any sense of holiday cheer with his Molotov personality disorder of arrogance, pettiness, selfishness, jealousy, insensitivity and incompetence.

Daunted but not defeated, bereft of introspection but not of gumption, Scott set out during a commercial break to raise everyone's spirits from the dead. His plan was instinctive and therefore as ill-conceived as they come, providing fuel for the fire, arms for the mutinous.

He bought 15 giant jugs of vodka. About one for every person at the party. And started pouring. He started pouring alcohol for the angry.

And it worked.

Everyone had a ball. Alcohol is not the answer, and yet alcohol was the answer. And Michael Scott was none the wiser, to be sure.

For me, this half-hour of television worked like an Afterschool Special in its cautionary tale. We watch every move the Dodgers make. We look at some moves and know they are right and yet see them go wrong, and we look at some moves and know they are wrong and yet see them go right. Decision-making in baseball is always about odds, but the odds are always fallible.

When you're living or dying with baseball, it is tragedy. When you step back, baseball is comedy. It is Seinfeld, it is Chaplin, it is Molière. And competency is no longer as relevant as blind luck, or as Michael Scott would spin it from behind his office desk, "street smarts."

It's not that decision-making by your ne'er-do-well gut is the smart way to go. No, no, no. It's that smarts are not always rewarded. Sometimes, stupidity conquers all.

Comments (490)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2005-12-08 10:08:00
1.   Bob Timmermann
Just to be on record, I refuse to play "Yankee Swap" and I'm keeping my video iPOD.
2005-12-08 10:13:05
2.   dan reines
Homer: Ah, alcohol. The cause of -- and solution to -- all of life's problems.
2005-12-08 10:19:20
3.   molokai
If "studity conquers all" then Bowden is on his way to taking the Nat's to the WS.

On a good note it is being reported that Dan Evans will be getting a look by the Red Sox. Did you guys know that Dan Evans was the original stats guy? At the age of 22 he was the person responsible for entering the stats into the new computer system that STATS(the company) had just created. The White Sox at the time were only the 2nd team in baseball to employ a computer to help determine statistical tendancies.

2005-12-08 10:24:46
4.   Jon Weisman
Paging Larry Wilcox, former attendant at our favorite Union 76 station of yore ( They are casting for the ChiPs movie.

2005-12-08 10:27:27
5.   Bob Timmermann
The late Richard X. Slattery played Murph in those commercials, but anyone know who played Nick or Jill?

I seek information, not to quiz people.

2005-12-08 10:29:41
6.   Eric Enders
This season of baseball was more like Buster Keaton. Specifically, it was like the part of "Sherlock Jr." where he finds himself trapped in a bizarro alternate universe with no way to get out.
2005-12-08 10:32:28
7.   underdog
Love the Buster Keaton analogy. I could see the season being like any Buster film...

Btw, Elmer Dessens just signed with the Royals.

Also, Mike Megrew was taken in round 2 of the Rule 5 draft. Didn't see who if anyone the Dodgers took.

2005-12-08 10:33:55
8.   JJoeScott
Jon can have the taco sauce, too.
2005-12-08 10:34:24
9.   Eric Enders
I suppose this was discussed yesterday, but it's pretty clear now which farm system is the deepest in baseball, at least if you ask the GMs. In the Rule 5 draft we had the second player taken in the first round, and the first player taken in the second and third rounds. (Each team can only lose one player per round.)

So, we're hemorrhaging prospects. I'm a little disappointed to lose Megrew, as I think he still has a future, but I also think we'll likely get him back.

2005-12-08 10:35:26
10.   Nagman
That was the best 30 minutes of discomforting yet hilarious television I've seen in a while. Unfortunately, I can't find anybody else who has seen it to talk about it with. I hope people are watching this show.
2005-12-08 10:42:28
11.   Jon Weisman
Jose Valentin to the Mets on a minor-league contract.

10 - you can talk to me.

2005-12-08 10:43:28
12.   stevo
Anyone else lose it when Dwight quoted Billy Zane? Classic.
2005-12-08 10:44:20
13.   Vishal
why not just get the BBC episodes on dvd? i've only seen a couple episodes of the american version, but they were inferior for sure.
2005-12-08 10:45:06
14.   Jon Weisman
12 - Yeah, that was great. I also liked Michael's careful explanation of what "reverse psychology" is.
2005-12-08 10:46:32
15.   underdog
Arrrgh, my stupid TiVO (or rather, stupid me and my TiVo) forgot to tape The Office. I forgot to put it on season pass, and missed it...... argggggggggh.... oh well, rerun season will soon be upon us.
2005-12-08 10:48:18
16.   Jon Weisman
13 - I've seen plenty of both (maybe all, though it's possible I missed a few British ones) - and I have to say, though I didn't expect it at all and was certainly prepared to hate it, I think the U.S. version is better.
2005-12-08 10:49:42
17.   Marty
I have to admit I've not seen a single episode. I'm going to add it to my DVR list today.
2005-12-08 10:52:55
18.   Vishal
hmm. the ones i saw mimicked the storylines of the BBC show, and so the comparison was very stark, and of course since i'd seen the british ones first, the remakes seemed "wrong" to me. they're not simply limiting theselves to remaking the british episodes though, are they? i take it that the american show is going off in its own direction with completely different episodes?
2005-12-08 10:54:43
19.   stevo
13 - It is definately not the British version, but it has a much different feel to it. It has really hit a stride recently, the writing has been extremely funny. If you can get past the British version being better for a second(I know its hard, I hate remakes), there is some really great, smart stuff. I would start with the recent episodes though(like the last 4 or 5) because has found its own voice, and it doesnt seem like a remake at all.
2005-12-08 10:55:08
20.   Bob Timmermann
"The Office" along with "My Name is Earl" is moving to Thursdays in January.

I love both the British and American versions of "The Office". I didn't like the initial episodes, but the show has really taken off this year.

There are just 14 BBC episodes. 12 of the regular series and a 2-part Christmas special.

2005-12-08 10:55:27
21.   bhsportsguy
9 - From today's Baseball Prospectus - Dominican League Report:

The Dodgers' Joel Guzman is continuing his steady development, a trend that started in 2004. Guzman is hitting .294/.370/.513 with 5 homers, 9 doubles, 26 RBI, 14 walks and 26 strikeouts in 119 at bats playing for the Estrellas. His notorious raw power has been on display more often in game action this year, and he's shown a much better understanding of the strike zone. Guzman has drawn a walk every 8.5 at bats and has struck out every 4.6, compared to 10.5 and 3.4 at Double-A during the summer. Joel told us at the season's start that former Dodger GM Paul DePodesta wanted him to concentrate more on his hitting and at bats, no matter where the Estrellas put him on the field. Guzman has played primarily at both infield corners, and recently was moved back to shortstop. He has committed eleven errors on the season.

Dodgers RHP Yhency Brazoban is leading the league in saves with 12 for the first-place Licey Tigers. Brazoban has a 1.96 ERA and 18 strikeouts in 18.1 IP

I agree, I can't see Florida keeping Megew on the MLB roster although without Beckett and Burnett, who knows what pitchers they will trot out to the mound next year.

2005-12-08 10:55:28
22.   bhsportsguy
9 - From today's Baseball Prospectus - Dominican League Report:

The Dodgers' Joel Guzman is continuing his steady development, a trend that started in 2004. Guzman is hitting .294/.370/.513 with 5 homers, 9 doubles, 26 RBI, 14 walks and 26 strikeouts in 119 at bats playing for the Estrellas. His notorious raw power has been on display more often in game action this year, and he's shown a much better understanding of the strike zone. Guzman has drawn a walk every 8.5 at bats and has struck out every 4.6, compared to 10.5 and 3.4 at Double-A during the summer. Joel told us at the season's start that former Dodger GM Paul DePodesta wanted him to concentrate more on his hitting and at bats, no matter where the Estrellas put him on the field. Guzman has played primarily at both infield corners, and recently was moved back to shortstop. He has committed eleven errors on the season.

Dodgers RHP Yhency Brazoban is leading the league in saves with 12 for the first-place Licey Tigers. Brazoban has a 1.96 ERA and 18 strikeouts in 18.1 IP

I agree, I can't see Florida keeping Megew on the MLB roster although without Beckett and Burnett, who knows what pitchers they will trot out to the mound next year.

2005-12-08 10:58:42
23.   SMY
I prefer the BBC version too, but this Christmas party episode was hilarious. Although it still doesn't compare to David Brent performing at the Training Day or doing his motivational speaking engagement.
2005-12-08 11:00:54
24.   Bob Timmermann
The American characters in "The Office" have finally been given their own personalities distinct from the British ones. They have somewhat similar archetypes, but they are quite different now.

Dwight and Gareth are quite different and are both great in their own way.

The Jim-Pam dynamic is a bit different than the one between Dawn-Tim because they need to draw it out over more episodes. They may have to resolve it sooner than later.

2005-12-08 11:02:31
25.   Penarol1916
We always play Yankee swap at my office Christmas party, I never cared for it. That was the best episode of the American version that I've seen. Definately a nice little surprise of a show after expecting the worst.
2005-12-08 11:05:14
26.   stevo
Don't know if you guys know but you can buy all the episodes of the office on itunes for 1.99 a pop. The episode from this saeson titled "the fire" was as funny as anything Ive seen on TV in the last year(yes that includes Arrested Dev.)
2005-12-08 11:07:33
27.   Penarol1916
7, 21 Do you people just decide to ignor every other thread on the site where both subject were already mentioned? 21 is especially egregious since that exact same excerpt was in a previous thread.
2005-12-08 11:08:33
28.   subclub
The first few episodes were pretty weird Twilight Zone remakes of the British series, but they've really been on a roll this season. I think "The Dundies" and "Office Olympics" episodes were just amazing. You might want to track down some season 2 episodes.
2005-12-08 11:11:25
29.   Vishal
also re: the post, winning by dumb luck really bothers me. whatever happened to the residue of design?

if a decision is right at the time and it doesn't work, it's STILL the right decision, just with unfortunate results. but you should make that same decision every time.

but to the joe morgans of the world (and i have heard joe espouse this belief many times), if something works, it must have been right. he uses hindsight to evaluate decisions.

i'm actually writing a paper, and my research led me to some work on decisionmaking. i read that eventually someone who uses something like joe's system of hindsight-valuation, which is similar to the linear adaptive model, would in the long run, end up settling on the right answer most of the time.

that is, if choosing between A and B, if A worked last time, next time choose A. if it didn't work last time, choose B. but it's suboptimal compared to a utility maximizer, who goes by the odds every time.

on the other hand if you just go by "gut" or "instinct" or some random thing like the direction of the wind, then well you have no methodology and you have no business making decisions at all.

2005-12-08 11:13:21
30.   Eric Enders
I've never seen The Office -- or even heard of it other than on this site. But with all the raves I've seen for it here, I suppose I'd better consider making a rare exception to my "No Network TV, Ever" policy.

Previous exceptions have been Cheers, Seinfeld, The Simpsons, Homicide, and My So-Called Life.

2005-12-08 11:16:46
31.   blue22
30 - The three network sitcoms I Tivo are Arrested Development, Office, and Earl. I'd recommend any of those 3, though I wonder why you haven't watched AD yet?
2005-12-08 11:18:04
32.   subclub
Definitely check out the DVDs of the British series (there were 2 6-episode seasons and a couple of specials that wrapped things up). I'm going on record as saying it's the best show ever. The American version is also very, very good.
2005-12-08 11:22:48
33.   SMY
Gervais' new show, "Extras" that actually on now? Or still in production?
2005-12-08 11:24:08
34.   dsfan
Shed no tears for Depo.

Of course I've never spoken with the man about it, but I bet if he had liberty to speak his mind, he would say that getting fired by the McCourts was the best thing that ever happened to him.

The day that he got that pink slip, Paul DePodesta got both his life and his sanity back.

Reading some very obvious tea leaves, the McCourts were making Depo's life miserable. They'd castrated the poor bugger. Not only were they meddling, they were inept, caprcious and malicious. And need I mention Lasorda's influence?

I agree that it's frustrating not to have the chance to carry out a vision and a plan, to get blown up 20 months into a 60-month journey.

But I think the Depo pathos is hugely misplaced on this site.

I truly believe that the McCourts were such despotic, meddling fools that Paul DePodesta is much, much happier since they fired him.

One more day, more more week, one more month would've just added that much more agony and frustration to Depo's life.

2005-12-08 11:28:51
35.   Bob Timmermann
I don't know if there is going to be another six episodes of "Extras". It ended on a relatively happy note, so that might be the end.
2005-12-08 11:29:27
36.   SMY I already missed it. Guess I'll have to watch it on DVD.
2005-12-08 11:29:50
37.   Bob Timmermann
They'd castrated the poor bugger.

Since DePodesta is about to become a father for the second time, I'm assuming that this is figurative, not literal.

2005-12-08 11:31:08
38.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
"I truly believe that the McCourts were such despotic, meddling fools that Paul DePodesta is much, much happier since they fired him."

Happier, maybe, but it's hard to imagine him getting another GM job anytime soon. Any owner giving him another chance will do so knowing the Joe Morgan legions will descend upon him with great haste. Most will opt for the safer choice.

2005-12-08 11:31:19
39.   MartinBillingsley31
Anyone know the new rumors today?
I just got home from college and looked around a little, and found izturis for mench rumor but that's all.

I'm starting to believe that the team with the most holes that has a shot a winning their division (dodgers) is the team that gets the most rumors said about them.

2005-12-08 11:34:36
40.   Dark Horse
I don't feel an excess of sadness for DePo either, if only since the guy will wind up somewhere better. I feel sad somewhat for us, losing him.

Still, on the glass-half-full side. Mr. Ned hasn't made a real mistake yet (though God forbid we give up anyone like Broxton for Kevin Mensch...why not just keep Milton, in that case?) And best of all, Lasorda's alleged "influence" seems to be damn near non-existent. I won't feel safe until he joins the Big Dodger in The Sky, but...rumors of his effectiveness seem to me greatly exaggerated.

2005-12-08 11:35:05
41.   Ken Arneson
29 Gut instinct is an adaptive model. It's not purely random.

Gut decisions are based on adaptive pattern matching algorithms. Your brain makes decisions, but both the algorithm and the data used are completely subconscious, so they are impossible to analyze.

The decisions may look random, but that's only because you can't access either the algorithm or the data used to arrive at that decision.

That's why experienced people generally make better decisions than inexperienced ones. They've had a longer time to adapt to their successes and mistakes. Of course, some people adapt more quickly and efficiently than others.

2005-12-08 11:40:59
42.   KLV

The David Brent motivational speaking episode is one of the funniest things I've ever seen.

I'd also like to recommend My Name Is Earl. I initially thought it looked really stupid, but it's actually a very smart show. It manages to be really funny while still having a heart without being schlocky. I think one of the few bright spots in non-cable TV over the last few years is the presence of some fresher, smarter comedies.

2005-12-08 11:46:56
43.   slackfarmer
Anybody know how to get in touch with Depo? We should take him out to lunch. He should know that there are at least some fans that thought he was doing a good job. I'd also love to hear some of the inside dirt straight from the horse's mouth.
2005-12-08 11:48:18
44.   Rob M
30 What? No Freak and Geeks? Best show ever.
2005-12-08 11:50:10
45.   Bob Timmermann
I would have to think that going out to lunch with Paul DePodesta would be an utterly unremarkable experience. He doesn't strike me as a witty conversationalist.

And he'd just end up figuring out the tip for the meal with some evil device like a calculator!

2005-12-08 11:51:15
46.   natepurcell
matre for renteria!?!? the braves finally made a bad move. that sucks.

someone mentioned this earlier but if renteria, who had a terrible year last yr in a hitter park and has a bloated contract can get a prospect of andy marte's caliber.... what the hell can a healthy izzy get?

2005-12-08 11:55:15
47.   Rob M
46 That deal is shocking. Isn't Marte more highly regarded than Laroche or Guzman?

Plus they got Beckett. If the Red Sox had also scored Drew and Abreu for Manny, then I think every team in baseball would have to go with the no GM strategy.

2005-12-08 11:56:02
48.   norcalblue
39-fact (not rumor) The Braves just gave Andy Marte to the Red Sox for Edgar Renteria.

From the Braves perspective, I have a hard time seeing how Renteria at a cost Marte and $30m over the next 3 years is preferable to Furcal at a cost of $39m over 3 years. Considering that Furcal would have probably taken less than $39m to remain in Atlanta this seems like a poor plan B.

2005-12-08 11:56:19
49.   Vishal
well, what if it's mostly random? i guess i'm thinking of "gut" more along the lines of whim or fancy.

take the grady little decision everyone has been talking about since he got hired:

"should i take pedro out or leave him in here? hrmmm. i think it's he's got it today. he can take care of business for this one last inning. better than the 'pen, anyway".

what's telling grady little that he should trust pedro, and that pedro still had something left in the tank? is it his prior experience of ace pitchers, or the playoffs, that he's subconsciously drawing upon? is it just that he was still "adapting" and learning about the consequences of leaving pedro in late in games, past 100 pitches and 6-7 innings, even though he'd had that situation many times during the season? or was it just a whim or a hunch not really based on much at all? you're right, it's hard to analyze, but i have a feeling that a lot of times it's more random than you'd like to think.

2005-12-08 11:57:42
50.   natepurcell
sox gave braves 11 mil too.

so they are basically paying marte 4 mil for the next 3 seasons if you factor in his rookie salary+ the money going to the braves

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2005-12-08 11:59:56
51.   blue22
48 - It's actually about $6M/year for Renteria (with the $11M the Sox kicked in), + Marte.
2005-12-08 12:01:11
52.   GoBears
41 Exactly. And it's not just memory - it's physiological. Learning involves the growth of neural nets that make future decision making much more efficient. We ARE deciding rationally, just so quickly (through shortcuts, we misleadingly call gut instincts) that it's not conscious. Studies of children and stroke patients along these lines are fascinating - watching the learning (or re-learning) in real time. Even in political science, functional MRI exams can show that naive and sophisticated (experienced) people use different parts of their brains when thinking about political stimuli. For naive participants, it's emotion first (frontal lobe), then reasoning second, to justify decisions already reached. For sophisticates, it's memory and reasoning. Still too rough to say much more than that, but we know that "instincts" are learned, not hard-wired. Think about the different split-second reactions you'd get taking a swing at a child, versus an adult who has been in a few scrapes, versus a black-belt.
2005-12-08 12:01:16
53.   CT Bum
I'd like to add my vote for 'The Office' as funniest show currently on TV. As for all shows, my pick is HBO's 'The Wire'. Much better than 'The Sopranos' with 1/10th the pub. Great stuff.

Also, be sure to spin a John Lennon tune today (my personal pick is "Happy Christmas"). It's truly unbvelievable that it was 25 years ago tonight I heard Howard Cosell on Monday Night Football make the terrible announcement.

2005-12-08 12:01:26
54.   blue22
We'll see if the Red Sox and their headless GM have more success in "convincing" the Rays to give Lugo for Marte. The Rays already rebuffed that offer from the Braves, from what I've read.
2005-12-08 12:03:05
55.   natepurcell
from what ive read, sox told the braves they plan on keeping marte. hell, i would too. with loretta now in the fold, switch pedroia over to SS and go from there.
2005-12-08 12:04:29
56.   blue22
55 - A Marte/Pedroia/Loretta/Youkilis infield for the Sox? That's quite the youth movement for them, as close to rebuilding as they've been in 85 years.
2005-12-08 12:04:57
57.   dsfan

Fret not for Depo's future.

The industry knows that the McCourts are malicious fools.

Depo will live off the McCourts fat checks while working for another club as a "consultant" or semi-assistant.

Then he'll get another chance. He's not been sent to the Gulag Archipelago. He'll be back and better for the experience. We should all have as many options as Paul DePodesta.

48 --

Not as bad as it looks for the Braves. The Red Sox are paying $11 millon. So the Braves owe Renteria $6 million per year.

2005-12-08 12:05:26
58.   blue22
56 - Oops, they have Lowell. (And Cora too!).
2005-12-08 12:07:31
59.   SMY
56 I don't think Youkilis will ever get a real shot in Boston. He should have been playing at least semi-regularly for two seasons now. But they seem content to bounce him between the majors and AAA and let him sit on the bench. Why they don't just trade him is beyond me.
2005-12-08 12:08:24
60.   subclub
Yeah, I kind of simplified things a little. It's probably a tie between The Office and Freaks and Geeks.

The Wire is awesome. It's definitely my favorite non-comedy (although there's often hilarious interplay between the characters). Unfortunately, it's nearly impossible to get into the show without starting from Season 1, Episode 1, so I don't think it's going to attract a lot of viewers. Luckily HBO doesn't have to worry about advertisers.

2005-12-08 12:11:40
61.   Marty
Deadwood is still #1 for me.
2005-12-08 12:11:45
62.   blue22
59 - I'd never heard any dissatisfaction about Youkilis - only that Theo wouldn't ever give him up.

I had heard that Youkilis was going to get a shot this year over Mueller/Millar/Olerud 3B/1B combo the Red Sox had featured last year. That was pre-Lowell though.

2005-12-08 12:11:57
63.   GoBears
I like "The Office" too, but I'll admit, I turned off the last episode when Michael started the "Yankee Swap" thing. It was just too much. I know that my disquiet was a tribute to the writing and acting - it was so good that I was uncomfortable. But, oddly, while I find Michael and Dwayne actually somewhat plausible characters, I what to throttle everyone else in the office for being such a weakling. Why do they continue to humor this a-hole?! I know, I know. I shouldn't get emotionally involved in a sitcom. Put it this way. At that moment, I just wasn't enjoying myself, so I switched channels. Normally, I watch "House" anyway, because "Commander-in-Chief" is close to the worst show I've ever seen. In this case 20 minutes of silence was my top choice.
2005-12-08 12:22:40
64.   SMY
62 There's no overt dissatisfaction -- they just rarely use him. He was destroying AAA and holding his own when he got a chance at the ML level, yet still couldn't displace Kevin Millar. Maybe he gets a chance to be the right-handed platoon at 1B, but I don't get the sense that the Sox are really all that high on him.
2005-12-08 12:36:42
65.   Blue Thrue and Thrue
"Isn't Marte more highly regarded than Laroche or Guzman?"

Marte was BP's #1 prospect in their top 100 for 2005. His top two PECOTA comparable players are Miguel Cabrera and Ron Santo.

2005-12-08 12:37:43
66.   underdog
Yeah, The Wire may be the best show of the last 10 years, and I'm not sure how many people have watched it. Season 1 was brilliant. 2 was also brilliant, if a little bit less consistent (for me), 3 I'm just starting to watch now. Amazing show.

The other TV boxes I own: Freaks and Geeks, yes. Will watch over and over. Simpsons seasons 3-5 (so far). Deadwood. The Wire. Futurama season 2. Bob Newhart Show (okay, I got that for free from work, was a childhood favorite, not nec. something i would buy though.)

Back to baseball: So did the Dodgers take anyone other than the wonderfully named Bastardo?

2005-12-08 12:43:34
67.   Jon Weisman
29 - "winning by dumb luck really bothers me"

I think you may have missed the point.

2005-12-08 12:44:32
68.   Bob Timmermann

Another "Deadwood" fan? Good.

All I can say here on this site about that show is that it's about that those &@&%$#@#!s in the front office get some ##(&=^*(! players to show those ^&(#@$##)rs in San Diego and San Francisco who's boss!

2005-12-08 13:01:08
69.   bigcpa
46 The Braves did Jose Capellan for Dan Kolb last year. Ewww. Then giving 400 pa's to Jordan and Mondesi for a combined .630 OPS. Tim Hudson $14M/year. I don't see the genius- at least not recently.
2005-12-08 13:03:44
70.   dsfan
Would you swap Izzy for Mench?

How about Broxton for Mench?

Seems like the Rangers are likely to move at least one OF. Seems like they and the LAD have been talking to one another.

2005-12-08 13:09:24
71.   bigcpa
If we think of Broxton as a starter with a 14 k/9 rate he seems a lot more untouchable to me. 6 years of Broxton for Mench? No thanks.

And how did this obscenity slip by?

The Padres, Dodgers, Red Sox and Royals have expressed interest in J.T. Snow, sources told the San Francisco Chronicle....

The Dodgers could non-tender Hee Seop Choi and use Snow and Olmedo Saenz at first base until Jeff Kent moves over from second.

2005-12-08 13:13:08
72.   Marty
I have a friend who watches Deadwood at one of his friend's house and they play the Deadwood drinking game. Guess which word is the one they have to take a drink on each time it's said.
2005-12-08 13:13:25
73.   Shmueli4
What do we all think of Hank Blalock (he is only 25)? Is he more valuable then the potential of LaRoche? If it were not for our potential waiting a 3rd, I would rather trade value to sure up a corner infiled position and keep Bradley and teh current outfield.
2005-12-08 13:14:57
74.   Bob Timmermann

If you took a drink every time they said ---------- you be completely --------- by the end of the show, if not dead from alcohol poisoning.

2005-12-08 13:16:23
75.   blue22
has this been discussed yet?

"Dec 8 - The Dodgers and Blue Jays have a deal on the table that would send outfielder Milton Bradley from L.A. to Toronto for pitcher Miguel Batista,'s Jayson Stark reports."

2005-12-08 13:17:51
76.   slackfarmer
70 Arlington is a perfect example of a park with handedness. If you look at the overall park factor you'd think it was a big hitters park. Really, it's a huge park for for lefties, and just above average for righties.

According to the James handbook, for righties it plays 106 for average and 106 for HRs -- in other words about 6% above the norm. Dodger Stadium for righties plays 91 average and 106 for HRs. So Mench's average would likely take a bit of a hit, but his power would be inline.

Of course, Mench is still only about an .800 OPS guy with mediocre D (98 Rate2). So what's all the interest for? I'd rather keep Bradley.

2005-12-08 13:19:43
77.   SMY
71, 75 Ugh to both.
2005-12-08 13:20:55
78.   molokai
Of course Broxton as a starter won't produce a 14/9 K rate so you can't look at him like that. I wouldn't deal Broxton for Mench or Izzy for Mench in light of the Renteria/Marte deal. All in all I'd just stay away from Texas hitters not named Tex. Still want a healthy outfielder for my Xmas list.
I'm very geeked up after the Renteria/Marte trade knowing Izzy is going to have some serious value come next summer or winter.
2005-12-08 13:21:16
79.   Shmueli4
Where do you read these Jayson Stark rumors?
Do you have to be an Espn insider?
2005-12-08 13:22:26
80.   blue22
Yes. RumorCentral and Stark's "Rumblings" columns are both behind the cash wall.
2005-12-08 13:22:43
81.   dsfan
Blalock is less appealing when you look at his work outside the Texas helium home and his salary leverage.

I feel like the lone wolf on Willy Aybar, but I'd love to see Aybar get a legit shot at 3B in the next 1-2 years (while not just handing him the job).

And behind Aybar you have LaRoche so Hank B's probably a better fit for another club.

2005-12-08 13:23:23
82.   molokai
Miggy would be a serviceble 4th starter. His 3 years in Arizona were very good for that ballpark. Like many pitchers who move from the NL to AL he suffered.
2005-12-08 13:25:42
83.   was it tims mitt i saw
66 - haha, alberto bastardo..

you think he grew up with a chip on his shoulder?

anyways.. the guy we lost second pick overall... luis gonzalez, his stats look pretty decentl. and he's a lefty. can you guys write about anything you know about the guys we lost or drafted?

(i ask although i feel like jon will do this at day's end)

2005-12-08 13:26:32
84.   slackfarmer
75 & 82 Batista would be a fine back of the rotation guy, but I couldn't stand hearing Vinny go on and on and on about the poetry. I'd also rather have Bradley in the OF.
2005-12-08 13:27:56
85.   blue22
82 - He's a little wild, but isn't all that hittable. His K rate rebounded last year, but probably b/c he moved to the bullpen. Doesn't give up a lot HR, and his G/F was close to 2 as a starter.

He'll make $4.75M next year.

2005-12-08 13:30:05
86.   slackfarmer
83 Coors eats arms, so they could always use another guy in the pen. Gonzalez put up pretty good numbers in AA, but not so great in his short trip to Vegas.

The Rocks had success with last year's rule 5 guy (Carvajal), but then they stupidly traded him for a catcher they don't need. By the way, they non-tendered Greene, so he is available for backing up Navarro.

2005-12-08 13:30:48
87.   Shmueli4
I say we let Grady test his people skills out and see if he can't "connect" with Milton instead of trading this valuable commodity for (*&(^(&))(%#%!!
2005-12-08 13:31:02
88.   dsfan
It appears Izzy has decent value in the marketplace, even coming off a ligament tear. That speaks well of Izzy, but it's not surprising. At age 24, Cesar Izturis played an incredible number of pressure innings as a SS/leadoff man while contributing to the LAD's first NL West title since 1995. You'd think he'd get more respect than he does on a Dodgers forum. Izzy had an .818 OPS as of June 2 last year, a few days before the hammy bit him. I put stock in the near-unaminous consensus among major league personnel that he's a very good defender. Love how the kid worked to get better with the bat, and he did get better at age 24 and 25. Hope the elbow rehab goes well.
2005-12-08 13:35:10
89.   slackfarmer
87 I wonder how much of Neddy's desire to move Bradly for lesser talents like Mench is more about putting his own stamp on the club rather than the chemistry thing.
2005-12-08 13:35:34
90.   molokai
Colorado didn't need a catcher? Closser blows on offense and defense. He's Koyie Hill.
2005-12-08 13:39:44
91.   blue22
89 - Decreasing the overall talent level of the ballclub is an interesting "stamp".
2005-12-08 13:40:55
92.   molokai
Probably because most of us on this forum remember 2003 and how he was one of the worse offensive players in baseball in 2003 and after his hot start in 2005 until he was sidelined with the surgery. Even 2004 was only adequate. He has some supporters here, I'm not one of them. No power, no on base skills, lousy base stealer, solid defender. Aren't the minors littered with middle infielders that fit that description. I know the Dominican Republic is.
2005-12-08 13:41:29
93.   GoBears
88 Offensively, Izzy is a huge risk. He has had 2 good months in his career - April and May of 2005. Otherwise, he's been among the worst hitters in baseball. Were those 2 months the real thing, or a short hot streak?

Defensively, yes, he's above average, or was. But I wouldn't pay money for his defense until I saw that he could still throw after TJ surgery.

With no bat and a weakened arm, he's probably not even MLB quality. Even at his peak offensively, he's probably at best a league-average SS (that great 2-month batting average was still nothing but singles). So if anyone wants him for an actual starter, God Bless.

2005-12-08 13:43:00
94.   dzzrtRatt
5 During the 1981 Series, I brought my girlfriend to Avalon. I stopped at various bars on the main drag to keep track of the series, and in one of them, there sat Richard X. "Murph" Slattery, sitting by himself, working on a pack of cigs and a gang of beer. He lived in Avalon, apparently. I saw him again the next morning at a breakfast place, pretty much having the same.

47 The CW is when the Braves give up on a highly touted prospect, they know something. So as big an upside as Marte has, maybe in the end he'll be another ... Odalis.

2005-12-08 13:44:13
95.   Steve
You'd think he'd get more respect than he does on a Dodgers forum.

He'd get more respect if credible arguments were made on his behalf.

2005-12-08 13:44:31
96.   slackfarmer
90 I can't see Torrealba being anything better than a back up. His OPSed sub-.650 last year. Sure he might get a bumb from Coors, but I can't image he hits anything decent. Basically, he's no improvement over the junk they already had. They could have signed someone who was a true step up, or stay with what they had and keep Carvajal. Either way they would have been better.
2005-12-08 13:45:14
97.   molokai
Ned hasn't shown much of an ego. I think your reaching. The man disobeyed his manager in a public forum that was detrimental to the team. Everything else I care about but not enough to trade him. That was a trading offense because it was not the 1st time he put himself above the team and it won't be the last time. If you guys can live with it great but not me.
2005-12-08 13:47:09
98.   Midwest Blue
Any fans of 'The Shield' here? I can't live without that show.

No HBO in the house so can't comment on those.

2005-12-08 13:48:50
99.   Shmueli4
89, 91

With the amount of movement that has happened and will continue, I think Mr. Ned will have ample opportunity to fasten his stamp on the 2006 Dodgers. Also, I get a good vibe from the non-moves thus far and teh creative thinking in the Furcal signing that I do not think Mr. Ned is a push over.

[BTW thinking back that may have been Depo's true short-coming - he seemed to get out dueled by other "old-school" GM in deals and potential signings - just think back to the whole Vasquez fiasco]

That being said, I just hope that Mr. Ned values Milton's qualities as much as we do and is willing to down play his short-comings. I think it would be nice for Mr. Ned and Grady to get their crack at cracking the Milton puzzle rather than shipping him out just to get rid of him.

2005-12-08 13:49:33
100.   jasonungar05
Deadwood fan here u suckers.....The wire is fabulous as well.

The Padres, Dodgers, Red Sox and Royals have expressed interest in J.T. Snow, sources told the San Francisco Chronicle. The Padres have said they intend to put Ryan Klesko at first base, so Snow might be a reserve and pinch-hitter in San Diego. The Dodgers could non-tender Hee Seop Choi and use Snow and Olmedo Saenz at first base until Jeff Kent moves over from second. Dec. 8 - 3:36 pm et
Source: rotoworld/ San Francisco Chronicle

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2005-12-08 13:51:43
101.   sanchez101
93. Subjectively speaking, izturis is one of my favorite players, he doesnt make a lot of mistakes, he's always smiling, he's a small latin guy, how could i not like him. The image of izturis that is forever burned in my mind is from 1st inning of game one of the 2004 NLCS. He led of the inning and got on base, i think it was a single. The camera shot to him standing on first next to Albert Pujols, and izturis seemed so small, like he was Pujols' kid or something. Thats how i think of izturis, a little guy who can play a big mans game. Kinda like spud web, or bj armstrong were in the NBA.

That said, his defense is real nice, although his defensive reputation is a bit inflated. But his offensive contributions just dont cut it, his UPSIDE is a .290/.340/.390 hitter with 25-30 sb. Thats fine if the rest of your lineup is like the Red Sox or the Yankees, but the dodgers cant afford to carry a hitter like that when they cant even piece together an outfield or find certain option at 3B.

2005-12-08 13:52:32
102.   dsfan

I'd proably keep Bradley but you raise an excellent point that often gets overlooked. And your points abou Bradley's medical history also get overlooked.

2005-12-08 13:52:38
103.   Brendan
"He'd get more respect if credible arguments were made on his behalf. "

Steve is Mr. Wolf, the Cleaner.

2005-12-08 13:54:29
104.   blue22
99 - Considering both the manager and GM have turned over since last year, yet Milton is still being offered to other teams for table scraps, makes me think this is a McCourt-ordered transaction. Tough going against the boss, especially since Milton was most likely discussed during the hiring process of both guys.

I think Milton is gone, unless Ned ('scuse me - "Mr. Ned") is just dangling him.

2005-12-08 13:54:48
105.   Formerly R
The British Office is way better. I buy the characters as real people, even Gareth. On the American Office, I feel like I'm watching people act like characters. They're more cartoony. Something, I guess, American audiences are used to. It's a subtle difference, but a huge one.

Have we already talked about the 3-way deal that fell through that would have sent Manny Ramirez to the Dodgers, Lowe and Trot Nixon to the Phils, and Abreu to the Red Sox? Dan Patrick talked about it a bit this morning.

2005-12-08 13:55:10
106.   Steve
You guys bash on JT Snow, but what was his OPS on June 2?
2005-12-08 13:55:38
107.   JROBB
I agree with you 100 percent. I have been impressed with the way NED has handled himself. I like Grady Little as our manager because he will be able to get the players to play well consistantly. 188 wins in two seasons in the AL EAST is quite an accomplishment. Having a popular manager with the players makes it easier to convince free agents to come to your team without having to always offer Furcal kind of money to lure them to LA.

Picking up Furcal was a no brainer. We have missed a leadoff man since maybe Brett Butler. Having a SS as a leadoff man who can steal a lot of bases opens up having three bangers in the OF. Maybe there will be a market for Izturis at the trading deadline.

I would not trade Broxton for Mench. From what I have read, he hasnt hit well away from home.

Milton has got to go. I had hoped that he would be with us for a long time, but his actions have been way out of line. ME guys have no place being Dodgers. It is bad enough that our McCourt is a ME guy, but I dont think Coletti and Little are.

2005-12-08 13:56:00
108.   slackfarmer
I'm not a huge Izzy backer, but I think that he does get a bumb wrap by some stat types who undervalue his defense. If you look at some of the better D metrics like Rate2 or WARP you can see his value better.

He struggled with his bat early in his career, but then had a fine year in 2004 -- WARP of 6.4, compared to Furcal at 6.0. He started off 2005 even batter, then he got injured.

So how will he do when he comes back -- who knows? That is a legitimate concern. But if he comes back to his 2004 level, he is a better value at $3.1 mils than Furcal at $13.

2005-12-08 13:58:14
109.   sanchez101
95. i'll make a credible argument for izturis. he's shown in the past to be worth 20-30 defensive runs better than a replacement level shortstop. Thats at least two wins right there. Offensively, he's bounced around between worth up 10-15 runs. Thats a 3-4 win player, worth $6-8 million. Right now he's cheap and young. As long as he's okay coming back from surgury, and if pitchers can come back 100% so can infielders, he should be a good player to have around as long as you understand his shortcomings: he's not much of a hitter, so make sure the rest of your lineup is capable, and he wears down as the season progresses, so you should carry someone else on the roster you can play 20-30 games at short to keep him fresh.
2005-12-08 13:59:27
110.   Steve
109 -- You're not scared of my question. What was his post-June 14th OBP and SLG?
2005-12-08 14:01:37
111.   sanchez101
107. I dont think of Milton Bradley as a "ME" guy. His complaints against Kent where that Kent wasnt being enough of a leadership character and buring himself in BMX magazines in the clubhouse. Doesnt sound like a "ME" character. If anything Bradley might be to much of a team player, bunting when he doesnt have to and playing so hard he gets injured. Bradley has his issues, but dont confuse him with TO.
2005-12-08 14:02:49
112.   slackfarmer
We all should be able to agree that Izzy's biggest problem was that Tracy bat him leadoff, thereby pissing everyone off that we had a crappy leadoff guy.

Guess what? He's a number 8 guy. If we had a decent manager last year I doubt there would be so much dislike (mis)placed on Izzy.

2005-12-08 14:04:12
113.   dsfan

Good post on Izzy.

Sure, he could be a better fit for another club that has more offense. I don't see his OPS going much beyond .730, either, but he did show a lot of improvement in 2004 and 2005 before the hamstring injury.

In 2004 he gave excellent returns on the dollar for a team that finally won a division title. Tracy probably asked more of him than he should've. He's not a leadoff man and JT seldom gave him a breather. Texas might be a better fit for him.

2005-12-08 14:07:25
114.   sanchez101
109. his OPS in july was 597, and in august was 493. while he was playing injured, my argument for his was based on his defense and his salary. for the record, i dont think he has a place on the dodger roster, he's too expensive for a bench role and not good enough offensively to push choi to the bench or kent to 1B. When he's healthy in july, play him at 2B/ss for two weeks to show everyone that his elbow is fine and trade him.
2005-12-08 14:08:00
115.   popup
Talk about you never know what you will get in the (e)mail. Just received an offer to apply for a job at I kid you not. Four years ago or so I bought a ticket to what was then PacBell Park over the internet and ever since then I have been on the orange and black mailing list. Maybe since they lost Mr Ned, the Giants want to hire someone from the Dodger fold.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-12-08 14:08:03
116.   molokai
I thought JT Snow had one of the strangest seasons in recent memory when he came back from his injury and ended up posting a 958 in PacBell which is quite hard on LHB. Considering his slug% high in the last 4 years is 419 other then 2004 it was very out of whack. I think he even posted an OPS over 1000 in the 2nd half of 2004.
2005-12-08 14:09:30
117.   dsfan
108, 109

Agree with your points on Izzy. More important, the marketplace appears to be assigning decent value to him (although that remains to play out(. That's pretty impressive. After all, he won't be ready for six months and is coming off a severe injury.

2005-12-08 14:11:18
118.   JROBB
111. TO is an exteme ME guy. The moment that Milton played the race card with Kent he proved that he was only thinking about himself. That is a big issue and gives a real look into who he is and how he sees things.
2005-12-08 14:12:03
119.   Rob M
116 Did he rehab at Balco?
2005-12-08 14:13:35
120.   D4P
One of Depo's earliest moves (that garnered a lot of criticism from a lot of fans) involved trading what was arguably the most popular Dodger at the time (i.e. Paul Lo Duca).

Will Mr. Ned endure the same level of vitriol if he too trades/releases what is arguably the most popular Dodger at this time (i.e. Hee Seop Choi! Hee Seop Choi! Hee Seop Choi!)?

2005-12-08 14:13:42
121.   molokai
I always think of a ME guy when you disobey the manager and promote your own agenda to the media. I always think of a ME guy who explodes in a frenzy over a very small issue causing a suspension during the middle of a pennant race. I always think of a ME guy who can't get along with his manager(Cleveland)when he refuses to hustle when everyone else can. JMO
2005-12-08 14:15:15
122.   Bob Timmermann
Cesar Izturis OPS by month in 2005

April: 782
May: 837
June: 270
July: 597

2005-12-08 14:16:09
123.   Steve
114 -- close enough, and probably the amount of work that such a dishonest question deserved. But unlike my friends the Sabers, I don't require fealty to a higher objectivity. The stakes are too high. We did interview Jim Bowden after all.
2005-12-08 14:17:43
124.   sanchez101
118. no, playing the race card proved that he's not terribly bright or well spoken. i wouldnt take to much from one incident and say, well that says a lot. From spring training onwards, Bradley went out of his way to take on a leadership role. If he was up to the task or not is debatable, but to say that he's self-obsorved or is thinking only to himself doesnt seem to fit with most of the facts. He was mad about the way Kent was acting, and went over the top. His problem is that he cant control his temper or his mouth, not a me-first attitude.
2005-12-08 14:18:01
125.   Javier Gutierrez
The only popular thing about Hee Seop Choi among most fans is just the name, which is sad. If the Dodgers go out and sign J.T Snow and just forget about Choi completely it will be hailed as the best move Ned Colletti can do by most people in the media and a majority of the fans. All because of Defense and the clutchness of Snow, lol. All for defense in the first half only.
2005-12-08 14:19:25
126.   slackfarmer
120 I wondered above 89 whether moving Bradley was motivated by Mr. Ned trying to put his stamp on the club. As others have pointed out, it is more likely that McCourt made the call. I worry that Choi will face a similar fate. For better or worse, he was the poster boy of Depo's (in)famous Lo Duca trade.
2005-12-08 14:20:29
127.   Rob M
Re: Milton. He has an unstable personality and has proven to be injury prone. I really love his style of play and have rooted for him to get it together, but it seems it would be foolish to depend on him when we have a lot of other holes in our lineup. If we had Abreu or Cabrera or Manny we could take a flyer on MB. Otherwise it's a very risky move. The rub is that we already have him under contract it doesn't look like we're being offered anything worthwhile in return. If he could be part of a package for Abreu or Zito or something more than a spare part, great. Otherwise, keeping him may be the best move by default.

Re: Cesar. I love him too - the attitude, the spectular plays in the field, the "scrappiness" (hey, it has it's charms). But Furcal is better. Perez may even be better, assuming he could improve in the field. And we don't know if his arm will recover anyways. Izzy's best skills are highly replaceable. Wasn't Juan Castro a brilliant defender with no power or on-base skills?

2005-12-08 14:21:32
128.   Steve
You could have at least mentioned June, though. Geez, we could have wheeled out Arky Vaughn's rotting corpse and it could have at least OPSed a Grabowski.
2005-12-08 14:22:45
129.   dzzrtRatt
I tend to agree with those who back Izzy. The upswing in his offensive production began with the start of the 2004 season and continued through 2005 until he got hurt. The increased production from him was one reason why the Dodgers were in first place in July. There's ample reason to think Izzy'd figured something out offensively, rather than determining this was a purely statistical variance. Agree he shouldn't have been a leadoff hitter, but otherwise, the Izzy of April '04 thru May of '05 was a valuable player and probably a mainstay of the Dodgers at least til Guzman arrived.

What's "risky" about Izzy is one thing--his major injuries in '05. He can't be counted on--hence the Furcal signing. It could be he'll continue his offensive contributions pre-injury and maintain his defense. But maybe not. Figuring him for second base is just PR puff designed to make him and his fans feel better. Hopefully, by the time he's recovered, the incumbent first base platoon will be productive enough that Little won't want to mess with it. Also assuming Kent of '05 continues into '06.

If Izzy comes back undiminished, the Dodgers should showcase him for a few weeks, because he'd be a great asset to trade. But I don't know why a GM would take a chance on him now, except at firesale prices.

2005-12-08 14:23:02
130.   KLV
Bradley for Batista sounds good, as Batista actually fills a need for us. Batista slides in as our #4 or #5 starter and is signed only through 2006 (for 4-5 million, I think). As a result, we don't need to overpay Matt Morris, Jarrod Washburn, Jeff Weaver, whoever, and sign them to a longer deal that might block our young arms. I'm bearish on Milton Bradley -- physical and mental time bomb, in my opinion, I know others will disagree --but I'd like to see us deal him for something of real value to us. I think Batista would be, as much for what he would allow us NOT to do (once again overpay for SP on the free agent market) as what he would contribute to the team.
2005-12-08 14:25:39
131.   molokai
Maybe they are listening. Last year a group of us complained to McCourt about how season ticket holders who got a discount on their ticket price from the retail price had the discount price printed on the tickets. This was quite a bugaboo for us since we give these tickets to clients and friends and it is really none of their business how much we paid for the ticket.

Got a call from the Dodger ticket office yesterday telling me that they are going back to the old policy and will print the retail price on the tickets. A small victory to be sure but it was alot better response then the one I got last April when the ticket manager blew off my complaint.

2005-12-08 14:26:26
132.   Bob Timmermann
Of course, regarding Snow, from

"It's possible Snow will retire. He has long indicated his wish to stay in the Bay Area with his family and finally have summers off to enjoy camping."

2005-12-08 14:32:12
133.   Bob Timmermann
But what's become of The Greatest, Guttiest Dodger of Them All, aka Alex Cora? Is he a free agent? Do the Red Sox want him back?
2005-12-08 14:32:27
134.   sanchez101
im not putting too much weight in this Snow story, if every story that came out was true, pierre would be playing center, gathright would be laping left, soriano would be at 2B, we wouldve traded for Manny, and half the farm would be gone. 24 hours from now we wont even remember this.
2005-12-08 14:33:45
135.   D4P
24 hours from now we wont even remember this.

Or 20 comments from now.

2005-12-08 14:36:08
136.   dsfan

Excellent post on Izzy. Too bad about the injuries of late. It's interesting that any GM would talk about getting him now, given the medicals, but maybe it's just talk.

2005-12-08 14:40:34
137.   trainwreck
Ricky Gervais has said Extras will be like the Office in that it will last two seasons (and of course be 6 episodes a season).

I am a huge Nip/Tuck fan and of course the Sopranos can not wait till the new season.

2005-12-08 14:45:21
138.   Marty
137 Of course we're forced to wait and wait and wait and wait for the new Soprano season. Anthony Jr. may have gray hair the next time we see him.
2005-12-08 14:54:32
139.   willhite
133 -

Shame on you for poking fun at our old friend Alex. Until the Sox make another trade, he's probably their opening day shortstop.

2005-12-08 14:57:38
140.   Bob Timmermann
Lo Duca says that Alex Cora is the smartest man in baseball.

I heard him give a lecture on the parallels between "The Canterbury Tales" and turning a double play once. Another time, I saw him perform quadruple bypass surgery while fouling off 235 pitches from Matt Clement.

2005-12-08 14:58:07
141.   dzzrtRatt
No love for "Rome"? At first, I wasn't sure, but it hooked me. It felt like what you'd end up with if James Ellroy mated with Robert Graves.

The Wire and Deadwood are two shows that I couldn't hang with, mostly because my wife and I tend to watch these things together and the violence and language upset her. Even with "Rome," I eventually had to watch it in the other room. I would love to catch up on both via DVDs.

I don't know what's wrong with me, I just don't do Tivo. I'm almost 50, I'm not tech-averse, but for some reason I just don't want it. Maybe it's a hangover from the message from childhood that watching TV is "a waste of time." Somehow, it's okay to watch it if you just happen to see something you like during the hours you've alloted to it...I guess my parents did a number on me. Of course, their TV is on much more than mine nowadays.

2005-12-08 14:59:49
142.   Marty
141 Ratt, I like Rome a lot. And once you get a DVR you will be saying "how did I live without it", like after your first ATM use.
2005-12-08 15:01:16
143.   dzzrtRatt
Has anyone in the media written about this interesting development: Except for Bernie Williams, I believe all of Scott Boras' FA clients remain unsigned and are kind of wandering around out there, as every GM's last priority. Has Boras jumped the shark?
2005-12-08 15:01:30
144.   Steve
GMs appear to be interested in players in an inverse relationship to their talent.
2005-12-08 15:06:53
145.   Jon Weisman
TiVo, like walking, is one of those things you can completely do without until you start doing it.

I'm going to try to catch up with The Wire and Deadwood sometime, perhaps on DVD, but I didn't feel an enormous imperative to stick with them after the first couple of episodes. They didn't grab me the way, say, Homicide: Life on the Street, Oz or The Sopranos did.

There is no way that The Wire is better than Homicide was.

2005-12-08 15:07:43
146.   King of the Hobos
When Millwood wants more than Burnett, Damon wants 7 years, and Weaver wants, well, a lot, they're not going to be signed real fast. Then there are the lesser Boras clients, like Travis Lee, who aren't being signed because they just aren't very good
2005-12-08 15:07:54
147.   Kevin Maxwell
Thanks Bob. I can always count on you.
2005-12-08 15:09:28
148.   King of the Hobos
And for an added task, negotiations with backup catcher Paul Bako fell apart Wednesday night because of a difference of $50,000 and he left for free agency, presenting Colletti another hole to fill. Bako signed Thursday with Kansas City -Gurnick
2005-12-08 15:11:15
149.   dzzrtRatt
I loved Homicide: Life on the Street. I was crushed when they cancelled it. The only TV show box sets on my Amazon Wish List are various seasons of that show.

I cringe when I see actors from that show in lesser roles. Someone should send Andre Braugher and Kyle Secor giant bags of money to avoid having to work on the kinds of shows they do now. Commander in Chief--yech!

2005-12-08 15:11:17
150.   Colorado Blue
DVR = Cell Phone
I have a DVR. Although I do not own a cell phone I can tell by observation that people who have them can not only live without them they even find more creative places to hold useless conversations.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2005-12-08 15:13:36
151.   King of the Hobos
Oops, that's not all

Colletti could want Sandy Alomar Jr. Seems like he doesn't want Phillips. Gurnick mentions that Colletti is more concerned about 3B than 1B. Cottetti: "I want to try to improve for '06 without hindering '07 and '08. That is really the trick of these meetings. I could improve us right now, but I'm not sure it would make '07 and '08 as good as they can be"

2005-12-08 15:14:28
152.   Kevin Maxwell
TIVO allows me to be a fan of a show, without having the restrictiveness of the network schedule.
2005-12-08 15:14:29
153.   Bob Timmermann
I have both a DVR and a cell phone. The DVR is about 10,000 times more important to me. My cell phone hardly ever gets used. My extent of using it is often to call the person whom I carpool with that I'm near her house (she lives up on a hill and can't see my car from the driveway).

And I use it to phone in my prep football stories to the Daily News, I'm sure the erratic connections are responsible for the increase in typos.

2005-12-08 15:15:55
154.   overkill94
Plaschke just stated that winning breeds chemistry regarding the Red Sox on Around the Horn. Is this consistent with his writings?
2005-12-08 15:16:30
155.   molokai
Andre Braugher - the voice
2005-12-08 15:19:23
156.   Bob Timmermann

Plaschke, consistent. The two words appear together yet they seem so strange. Let me try to figure this out. Hmm...

I can't.

Brain... exploding ... exploding ...

We're sorry folks, but Bob's head blew up. This is a friend of his completing this post in accordance with his last will and testament.

2005-12-08 15:20:03
157.   zappala
TIVO lets my wife watch 4 shows in an hour instead of 2. She loves Office too. I actually don't watch TV any more, especially at the end of a semester. Rough life being a professor.
2005-12-08 15:21:25
158.   molokai
Never understood the contempt for cell phones. If two friends were riding a bus together no one would care that they were having a useless conversation but in the same scenario if your talking to your friend/family/business on a cell phone your considered a distraction. Why?
2005-12-08 15:24:40
159.   Eric L
156 The only thing consistent with Plaschke is that he generally writes what he thinks his audience wants to read (at least in my opinion). In other words, he panders to his audience.

At the very least, it would explain his flip-flopping*.

* flip-flopping isn't bad, as long as you explain why you flipped or flopped. Plaschke doesn't explain why.

2005-12-08 15:27:22
160.   jasonungar05
141: I am with you. I was bought a TIVO machine 3 years ago (it was a guilt present from my old best friend who owns a law firm. He hired my sister as a lawyer and then had to let her go 3 months later due to budget issues) so he was all drunk one night and called me and said something about Tivo. I said I didn't have it and he said you got to go get it.

In my best Larry David, I said, no, no I don't....two days later a TIVO was on my doorstep. I sent it to my sister cause she had a roomie who loved it. Anyways, now my sis is like you gotta get Tivo.

People seem to not understand why I won't get one and I do watch my fair share of TV..

And yeah the only reason I have a cell phone is for work and for my wife to bug me.

I am not a gadget guy. Never was. I do have an I-pod however. I may break down and get the DVR package or whatever it is with my cable (cox)

slow day around here when my longest post in 2 months concerns TIVO.

2005-12-08 15:31:13
161.   jasonungar05
This one is for you Bob:

LOS ANGELES - Barbra Streisand has canceled her subscription to the Los Angeles Times over the firing of the paper's liberal columnist.

2005-12-08 15:33:42
162.   scareduck
161 - birds of a feather, I suppose: both of them are stuffed to the beaks with idiotic and childish opinions.
2005-12-08 15:36:38
163.   Bob Timmermann

I've been resurrected! I didn't care one way or the other about Robert Scheer. I just cared about the awful Dodgers and Angels coverage.

You do know that perhaps 20 years from now, Plaschke will be a nominee for the Spink Award.

2005-12-08 15:36:48
164.   Rob M
TiVo. I've had the same barrier to buying one. It's the "I can't let TV be so important that I need to save every show" mentality. The compelling counterargument that everyone gives me is "you don't watch more TV, you just watch better shows when you do watch it," instead of random crap. I buy that. I just haven't bought a DVR. I probably will soon.
2005-12-08 15:37:39
165.   Rob M
162 Save the polemics for your site.
2005-12-08 15:44:25
166.   underdog
Sorry if this was posted before, but finally got the scoop on how the rest of the Rule 5 draft turned out:

Colorado raided us again, taking LHP Luis Gonzalez. You already know Megrew was taken by Florida (and given his Tommy John status, we've all expressed doubts he'll stay on roster for the year).

And then they lost Brandon Weeden, too. (Not a big deal.) Who was a throw in in the Jeff Weaver trade.
Guess Bastardo was it for LA's picks.

PS: I loved Homicide, too. Amazing show, brilliant writing. Jon you should give The Wire another try, at least season 1 (season 2 takes longer to get into) - maybe a few more episodes? Or not.


2005-12-08 15:46:02
167.   Bob Timmermann
Can't all the Rob M's of the world get along?
2005-12-08 15:47:18
168.   DaveP
Kenny Rogers to the Tigers for 2 yrs and $16 million.
2005-12-08 15:49:55
169.   overkill94
168 I think the Tigers interpreted the Dodgers' Furcal signing in the wrong way. You're supposed to overpay for a short contract in a guy's PEAK years, not when he's grumpy and over 40.
2005-12-08 15:52:40
170.   alex 7
just means the Tigers are in full win now mode! Or something.
2005-12-08 15:55:22
171.   Marty
158 I think the big difference between two people having a conversation and someone talking on the cellphone is usually the cellphone conversation is a lot louder, thus more distracting.
2005-12-08 15:57:51
172.   underdog
A Tiger fan I work with said he was happy with the Rogers signing (I informed him of it in an e-mail entitled "Hide the women and cameramen! K-Rog is coming") because he said the team is full of young pitchers and could use a veteran presence - and a LHP, too - to steady the rotation. Could be right, as long as Rogers doesn't blow a gasket. Overpaid, certainly, but nobody looks overpaid when compared to Burnett right now.
2005-12-08 15:58:23
173.   Rob M
167 Do we really need to know everyone's opinion of Scheer and Streisand and and Bill O'Reilly and Ayn Rand? I'd rather just read your cranky baseball opinions.
2005-12-08 16:01:43
174.   Steve
Ayn Rand hasn't hit a sacrifice fly in 300 at-bats.
2005-12-08 16:03:24
175.   Marty
I hear Bill O'Reilly is very toolsy with the loofa.
2005-12-08 16:04:09
176.   Eric L
173 Sometimes, I think it is better to ignore the political comments you don't agree with on non-political sites.
2005-12-08 16:09:26
177.   underdog
I was wondering if Dodgers fans are just more obsessive than some others... or at least why Ken's fine A's blog (Catfish Stew) gets so few comments? 1 or 2 at most, vs. this one's hundreds a day.

Or do we all just procastinate more than fans of other teams? Why, I'm doing it right now!

2005-12-08 16:13:21
178.   Andrew Shimmin
153- Having spent a total of a couple of hours in Bob's company, once, I can attest that I saw him futz with his cell phone 70-120 times and didn't see him touch a DVR once. Based on this skewed sample, I can now firmly attest that Bob is a liar.
2005-12-08 16:15:39
179.   Andrew Shimmin
By the way, what makes anybody think there's a market for Izzy? The Braves sent Marte to Boston for a so-so SS; did they offer Marte to Mr. Ned for Izzy? Just because you think Izzy is valuable, doesn't mean everybody else does, which is kind of the whole point.
2005-12-08 16:18:14
180.   molokai
I'm afraid I'll have to kick the DT addiction if I'm ever to have a productive life again.
2005-12-08 16:21:20
181.   molokai
He might not have a market today, but come July a healthy Izzy should have a decent market. Even if the market is only an 820 OPS LF, it is something for a player who has no position on the team.
2005-12-08 16:27:47
182.   Andrew Shimmin
181- Right. But how does he prove he's healthy? Furcal, assuming he remains healthy, isn't going to give up his position, even for a couple weeks to prove Izzy's for real. So does he get second, or does Mr. Ned try to sell his rehab stint in AAA? Ironically, I think he's going to get sold at below (which I'd already peg lower than many) his blue book value because there won't be a way to prove he's road worthy.
2005-12-08 16:29:49
183.   scareduck
174 - Does that mean DePodesta will make an offseason trade for Murray Rothbard's corpse?
2005-12-08 16:32:12
184.   Bob Timmermann

Will Colletti be going for the dealer Blue Book or the wholesale Blue Book? What is Izturis's condition "Excellent", "V. Good" or "Fair"? What about the mileage? What about the accessories?

I've been looking up prices for a 2006 Izturis in the Kelley Blue Book, but I can only find Isuzus.

2005-12-08 16:33:04
185.   fanerman
Dodger Thoughts, like Tivo, is one of those things you can completely do without until you start using it.
2005-12-08 16:35:25
186.   Andrew Shimmin
184- I don't respond to liars, liar.

Actually, I just can't think of a funny come-back. Something about Encarnacion. . . yeah, just isn't coming.

2005-12-08 16:41:18
187.   Jon Weisman
185 - Wow, that should be the blurb for the back cover of the book. Thanks.
2005-12-08 16:47:40
188.   scareduck
185 - thus neatly encapsulating two of Jon's obsessions.
2005-12-08 16:48:11
189.   Telemachos
187 Reason enough for a second printing. :)
2005-12-08 16:50:23
190.   Jon Weisman
So the idea was floated about having a DT booksigning and get-together. Maybe in January, after the holidays? Open to location suggestions. I'm open to a good bar; I just don't want anyone to Furcal on their way home. So perhaps a tabernacle instead?
2005-12-08 16:51:52
191.   Cones88
furcal for tejada
2005-12-08 16:51:54
192.   Steve
I know a good tabernacle choir.
2005-12-08 16:54:03
193.   jasonungar05
I am in the thrones of a moral dilema.

Do I buy a book for myself for x-mas, or will all my hints, nudges, the trick? Do I trust the wife to bring home the goods.

2005-12-08 16:54:40
194.   King of the Hobos
Miguel Tejada apparently wants out of Baltimore. In other news, Todd Pratt looks like he's going to the Braves. He was probably the best FA backup catcher available. Guess Alomar could have a slightly better chance of coming here
2005-12-08 16:54:43
195.   Bob Timmermann
Talk to your local library branch and volunteer to do a book talk.
2005-12-08 16:54:49
196.   natepurcell
and.... there goes our 2nd round pick.

2005-12-08 16:56:55
197.   natepurcell
oops, i mean 3rd round pick.
2005-12-08 16:57:38
198.   King of the Hobos
CBS out of Boston seems to think Mueller has signed with the Dodgers

2005-12-08 16:58:42
199.   scareduck
190 - I would suggest Sonny McLean's in Santa Monica, but the teamology might not align correctly.

Alternative suggestions:

* Ye Olde King's Head, also in SaMo
* The bar of McCormick & Schmick's downtown

2005-12-08 17:00:39
200.   Jon Weisman
193 - Never hurts to have a spare. I have two copies of "Fast Times at Ridgemont High" - hardcover and paperback.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2005-12-08 17:04:36
201.   Uncle Miltie
Peter Gammons just said the Jacque Jones is choosing between the Dodgers and Cardinals.

Message to Jacque: LA is dump, you'd be playing in a pitchers park, we have a terrible team, and you'll get booed mercifully. The Cardinals fans will cheer for you, even when you strikeout. If you want to win go to St. Louis!

2005-12-08 17:05:04
202.   Rob M
The Short Stop in Echo Park is very close to Dodger Stadium.

Or the Golden Gopher downtown.

2005-12-08 17:05:50
203.   Rob M
201 Dodger fans boo with lots o' mercy, I agree.
2005-12-08 17:06:48
204.   dzzrtRatt
Mason and Ireland were blabbing about the Dodgers. The one tidbit of a rumor they offered was that someone told them the Dodgers were 60 percent likely to sign Matt Morris--it's down to two teams, apparently.
2005-12-08 17:07:39
205.   natepurcell
we should all flood jacque jones' email with boos. just to give him a taste of whats to come if he does sign.

LA is as bad a philly jacque!

2005-12-08 17:09:12
206.   dzzrtRatt
So, add it all up and it looks like we won't trade anybody (except maybe Milton B.), but could end up signing four FA's: Furcal, Jones, Morris and Mueller.

So much for my theory that the Dodgers were more in trade mode than FA signing mode. The prospects are safe, all tucked in their beds.

2005-12-08 17:09:25
207.   Uncle Miltie
204- Yes on the bearded one.

No on the 2 African American dudes with French names (thankfully one of them was traded already)

2005-12-08 17:10:12
208.   molokai
Didn't even know it was a book. Rented the movie this summer to show my wife who had never seen it. Was afraid it would be dated and it wouldn't be as funny as the 1st time I saw it but it still works.
2005-12-08 17:11:21
209.   Steve
Can Colletti snatch defeat from the jaws of victory?
2005-12-08 17:11:56
210.   King of the Hobos
Jones is a local boy. We now have to convince him that the city really went to heck after he left. And this team sucks, it could never win. But those Cardinals, they have Pujols. But seriously, when we lost out on Giles, you knew Colletti would want the guy with modest power and speed, and only a little other ability. If he's cheap (which he won't be), he's just as good as Soriano (except he had good road splits)
2005-12-08 17:12:43
211.   Jon Weisman
208 - Whether you liked the movie or not, the book that it was based upon is much, much better. Cameron Crowe wrote it after spending a year disguised (rather easily, apparently) as a high school student. For years, I had been told it was Pali High, but then later someone said it was really down near San Diego.
2005-12-08 17:12:45
212.   dzzrtRatt
I've got my hated free agents and trade prospects all mixed up. Why again do we hate Jacque Jones? And, let's say we do get him. What hidden virtues of Jacque Jones will suddenly emerge? It looks like he strikes out a lot, but hits a lot of homers. Is that about it?
2005-12-08 17:13:25
213.   dzzrtRatt
I think Cameron Crowe still might be able to pull it off.
2005-12-08 17:13:44
214.   molokai
Are you allowed in SM? I know they accept the homeless but I thought they drew the line on Republicans:)
2005-12-08 17:13:51
215.   natepurcell
rather keep bradley. better yet, keep bradley and sign nomar.

go with an outfield of

and werth on the DL to start the season

including werth, we would have 5 outfielders that can play all 3 outfield positions and only nomar being the crappy left fielder. And with the depth, it will be easier when someone eventually goes down with injury.

2005-12-08 17:14:05
216.   King of the Hobos
I think we're missing out on the positives: we've signed Mueller (I guess it's not real positive to the Aybar fans), and Gammons reported the Jones rumor
2005-12-08 17:15:14
217.   Shmueli4
Come on now...JJ would not be so bad. Think in terms of opportunity cost, no matter howm much dough he gets, as long as the deal is not too long-term we get a player without giving up ANY bad can that be!
2005-12-08 17:15:38
218.   Jon Weisman
213 - With his current physique, I don't know ...
2005-12-08 17:16:09
219.   Uncle Miltie
Jacque is from San Diego and I think he still lives there. I would imagine that the Dodgers are offering more money. Maybe he won't want to play with Jeff Kent...
2005-12-08 17:20:14
220.   Uncle Miltie
hink in terms of opportunity cost, no matter howm much dough he gets, as long as the deal is not too long-term we get a player without giving up ANY prospects
Ok, thinking in terms of opportunity costs- we could save the $7 million a year he likely to get, play Werth instead, who is likely to be more productive and give the money to the bearded one.

Jacque Jones or Bearded One & Werth?

2005-12-08 17:21:21
221.   Steve
120 Ks a year forever, not that anyone will bring that up. Only tall Koreans are not allowed to strikeout. Not to mention that solid .315 OBP in the Minnesota bandbox. Repko can do that with his shoelaces tied together.
2005-12-08 17:22:58
222.   dzzrtRatt
218 Hadn't you heard about the obesity crisis among today's youth?
2005-12-08 17:25:08
223.   dzzrtRatt
220 I'm totally confused. We're signing Santa Claus? One of the Smith Brothers?
2005-12-08 17:25:14
224.   D4P
Not to mention that solid .315 OBP in the Minnesota bandbox.

Ahem...what was his OBP as of April 20?

2005-12-08 17:26:49
225.   molokai
He's been a great defensive left fielder and okay RF. He would have been a CF for the Twins if they didn't have someone named Hunter. If he was platooned he should post a >800 OPS. If he plays against LHP he might as well bat 9th. His splits are huge and really shouldn't be allowed to face LHP. He's a much better option then Pierre or Gathright because he does have legitimate power and the Dome played as nuetral for LHH Home runs in 2005. Jones actually has more power from the left side then Milton but his OB is lower.
2005-12-08 17:27:42
226.   Sushirabbit
Tejada to Boston?

It's a shortstop Merry-go-Round.

Tivo, yes, it's what's for TV.

Bob, sheer genius! (what used to be... and still rightly is... said about Guiness)

I'm sad there's no chance of me coming to a DT book signing or other get together. Although, I do have plans to go see the Cards with my Grandfather, father, uncle and my son. Alas, it won't be the Dodgers!

2005-12-08 17:28:06
227.   King of the Hobos
224 I'm not sure, but as of May 1st, he had a sexy .471 OBP. He forgot how to walk after April...
2005-12-08 17:28:31
228.   TheDictator
216 Did we sign Mueller? I must have missed that.

It looks like ESPN insider is claiming that Toronto is interested in Bradley. Since I don't get insider, I cannot get the details.

It would be neat to have an outfielder named after sports equipment. If you can't be an athlete be an athletic supporter.

Jacque Jones is both!

2005-12-08 17:29:23
229.   blue22
228 - Discussed a bit ago, but the Insider blurb is about Miguel Batista.
2005-12-08 17:29:24
230.   stubbs
what will jacque jones do for us?? will he be the big bat that gets us over the hump? of course not, either go big here or dont go at all and wait for '07.
2005-12-08 17:30:26
231.   Xeifrank
200. Never knew it was a book, and couldn't imagine it would have the same gusto the movie had. The Phoebe Cates pool scene just can't be duplicated in paper or hardback.

204. A.Martinez was on their show yesterday afternoon giving them percent chances of each Dodger FA/trade being true. He said that Morris signing with LAD was > 50%, he said Abreu and ManRam were 0%... there were a few others that I can't recall, as that Phoebe Cates pool scene has clouded my mind.
vr, Xei

2005-12-08 17:30:49
232.   Bob Timmermann
Since Jacque Jones attended USC, I think he's quite familiar with the Greater L.A. Metropolitan Area.

Parts of St. Louis are very reminscent of South L.A.

2005-12-08 17:31:00
233.   KLV

A teacher at my high school claimed to have attended the real Ridgemont High a few years behind Spicoli and the gang. He went to high school in the Valley (Sherman Oaks, I think). He said that the characters in the movie pretty accurately portrayed real people.


I'm not a big fan of Jacque Jones for the reason you point out: low OBP. But one point in his favor is he's apparently a very good corner OF, good enough that he could even play a decent CF if need be (i.e., if/when J.D. Drew misses time).

2005-12-08 17:34:26
234.   Steve
I keep hearing what a wonderful fielder Repko is. That doesn't mean I give him five million dollars.
2005-12-08 17:36:01
235.   stubbs
from espn:
2004 Season

Burdened by worries about his father's health and his status with the team, Jacque Jones never seemed comfortable and carefree in 2004. Still, he produced power, but lost points off his batting average and endured prolonged slumps at a point in his career when he was expected to improve his patience and consistency. He enjoyed a productive Division Series against New York in the days following his father's death.


Jones has tremendous bat speed that can drive a fastball a long way. In late 2003 and last spring, he looked like he was increasing his patience and selectivity at the plate, but often looked overeager during the summer. When he slumps, Jones tends to swing at virtually anything near the dish early in the count. He will get himself in a hole and his at-bats will last a matter of seconds. As his salary increases, he will need to improve in these areas to remain an everyday player for a good team. Greater patience would generate a better on-base percentage, as well as better power numbers, because he'd be swinging at better pitches to hit.

Baserunning & Defense

A smart, aggressive baserunner, Jones isn't blindingly fast, but can steal the occasional base. He's one of the best-fielding corner outfielders in the game in terms of range, but continues to have trouble finding his release point on throws. One might fly to the backstop, and the next might roll to the cutoff man. His throws aren't consistent enough to play right field in many stadiums besides the Metrodome, which has a shallow right-field fence.

2005 Outlook

There's a lot of talent in Jones' body, and he has demonstrated the work ethic and attentiveness required to still improve. An emotional man, Jones could benefit from a more peaceful 2005. If he can combine his raw power and bat speed with a little more patience and a higher on-base percentage, he could become a borderline All-Star talent. If he doesn't progress, he could wind up platooning somewhere.

2005-12-08 17:36:57
236.   D4P
I keep hearing what a wonderful fielder Furcal is. That doesn't mean I give him thirteen million dollars.
2005-12-08 17:37:05
237.   bigcpa
225 beat me to it. Jones is a platoon player all the way which is why we have Ledee.

This is appalling in 160 pa's vs LHP:

vs. RHP:
Jones .268/.348/.466
Ledee .286/.340/.447

and he made $5,000,000 last year at age 30. Yech.

2005-12-08 17:38:53
238.   scareduck
199 - ???
2005-12-08 17:40:07
239.   Brent is a Dodger Fan
Re: Izturis

The emotional side of me struggles with all the posts talking about how Izturis isn't very good, but I have to admit being pursuaded by them.

I think I am being easily fooled by how he plays defense: not the objective view, the statistical view, but the visual view.

I have had the pleasure of some good seats at PacBell (whatchamacallit) Park when I've seen the Dodgers in the past few years, 1st baseline, looking directly at the pitcher and shortstop. Cesar Izturis simply looked like the most graceful shortstop I ever saw. He seemed to get to every single ball hit his way, even if that involved sliding or falling down to get there, and then he'd rise up and deliver an effortless throw to get the runner by a step.

I call it lyrical. His defense just looked like high quality defense.

If you measure it, maybe the eyes deceive. After all, it doesn't matter how pretty it looks, it just matters that he gets people out.

So I want to give some voice to those who like Izturis, even if it is best for the team to trade him.

2005-12-08 17:45:28
240.   bigcpa
FWIW, Jones and Mench have something in common.

2004-26 HR
2005-25 HR

2004- 24 HR
2005- 23 HR

Mr. Ned likes consistency based on the Furcal move and his comments. 25 HR for $5M sounds like a deal compared to $12-15M for 35-40 HR. I'm trying to think non-sabermetrically here, work with me.

2005-12-08 17:51:36
241.   Uncle Miltie
240- well if the choice is between trading Broxton for Mench or signing Jones to a 2 year deal...I'd start Werth.
2005-12-08 17:53:57
242.   D4P
Is Werth supposed to be 100% and ready to go at the beginning of the season?
2005-12-08 18:00:17
243.   Steve
All the relevant statistical metrics state that Izturis is an excellent fielder.
2005-12-08 18:02:07
244.   D4P
Does that mean you'd give him 5 million dollars?
2005-12-08 18:02:50
245.   Fallout
239. Brent is a Dodger Fan

Omar Vizquel is pretty good too. Since you have seen them both in person, how would you compare them?

I agree with you that Izturis defense is very important to the team. (or was) I would like to know if his injury is what caused him to crash and burn at the plate last year. If so, there is no reason that he couldn't continue to improve like O Smith did. And, you have got to like his speed on the bases.

2005-12-08 18:05:55
246.   molokai
Except Jones plays exceptional defense and is rarely hurt. Ledee has the misfortune of having been traded for by the Giants and then putting up the following line 113/200/151 on Colletti's watch. Sure that was a small sample size but he was Choi 2004 Dodger bad. Plus he was a mess physically last year like all our other outfielders. JT was afraid to start him for fear of blowing the hammy which left us with Repko and Edwards stealing at bats.

You can't ignore the splits, just because the Twinkies are ignorant enough to play Jones against LHP doesn't mean Grady Little will be. He sat Trot Nixon against LHP and he wasn't nearly as bad as Jones. Most of you for some reason don't think we need an outfielder. Last year we went into the spring with the same outfield minus Cruz and it killed us. This year the same outfield has had two broken wrists(Drew,Werth), 2 shoulder surgeries(Drew), one knee surgery(Bradley) and one bad back for most of 2004(Cruz) and only Cruz is going to be ready by ST. Only Drew has a chance at being ready by opening day and we all know what a fast healer he is.
I'm not saying Jaque Jones is the answer because his salary might be terrible for his production but we need an outfielder and I'd buy one then trade for one if possible.

2005-12-08 18:06:18
247.   regfairfield
Has the Mueller signing been reported anywher reputable?
2005-12-08 18:07:33
248.   Uncle Miltie
246- Jones is an excellent fielder, but he's still a LF. That's a position where you can afford to put a mediocre defender at.
2005-12-08 18:08:25
249.   dzzrtRatt
245 I would like to know if his injury is what caused him to crash and burn at the plate last year.

If it wasn't, it's a mighty big coincidence. And in true Dodger fashion, the existence of his injury and its extent were kept secret for a month or more.

At the time of his slump, he was the NL's top hitter for average, then he cratered.

I wouldn't argue Izturis' speed, because he doesn't seem like he's got much of a gift for baserunning. His defense was amazing, and his hitting coming along nicely. What he'll be like when he comes back, I'd just be cautious. TJ surgery is pretty conventional now, but I haven't heard much about the prognosis for a fielder or a hitter.

2005-12-08 18:08:28
250.   molokai
No, but he'll be ready shortly after that to suffer his next debilitating injury.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2005-12-08 18:09:35
251.   dzzrtRatt
If Colletti is grumpy about Ledee, he must loathe Jose Cruz, Jr. That guy about wrecked the Giants' postseason in '03, didn't he?
2005-12-08 18:09:43
252.   D4P
I was talking about Werth, not Drew...;)
2005-12-08 18:10:26
253.   sanchez101
what was money being rumored to jones? thats the most important number. the dodgers #1 need is an outfielder capable of playing 150 games, werth doesnt fit the bill, neither does bradley. if jones signs for something like $10-$12m/2yrs im okay, but if its for more like $8 million per or for 3-4 years i dont like it much. in jacque's defense he did set a career high in walks last year with 51, im not sure if thats a good sign or a bad one.
2005-12-08 18:10:33
254.   Rob M
245 MYTH WATCH. If Izzy is fast, he doesn't show it very well on the bases.
2005-12-08 18:13:00
255.   caseybarker
Batista for Bradley...Barf.
2005-12-08 18:14:05
256.   molokai
I think Drew is Ripken compared to Werth. He's pulled a stomach muscle swinging a bat and missed 1/2 a year. He ran in to wall and busted ribs and played hurt for the rest of the year. He broke his wrist(pitched ball) but then took forever to heal and evidently never did because he just underwent wrist surgery all in the space of 18 months. Why does anyone think he'll have any power next year when he had none this year and his rehab won't be over until the start of the year?
2005-12-08 18:14:51
257.   KLV
What Molokai and Sanchez101 said.
2005-12-08 18:15:17
258.   molokai
Yeah, he can't be happy about that signing. Gold Glove RF all year and then ...........
2005-12-08 18:17:01
259.   dzzrtRatt
Werth's availability sounds like nothing to count on. If he's healthy, it'll be "a good problem to have," but I think the Dodgers need to figure they've got three outfielders now, Drew, Cruz and Ledee. Even if they keep Bradley, what you said about Werth is true about him too. Fragile. Maybe there's toxic waste under the outfield in Chavez Ravine that saps calcium from the bones.
2005-12-08 18:24:04
260.   sanchez101
werth was injury-plagued in Toronto too. i think its easy to go to far when talking about the availability of some of our players, some around here seem to have some issues left over from watching last season's medical-disaster of a team. we can count on more than nothing from werth, just dont expect 160 games, more like 100 games and he should be at least be a decent bat off the bench.
2005-12-08 18:25:30
261.   Adam
Drew/Cruz/Ledee is a pretty pathetic outfield. And, Reggie Sanders is not the solution. It seems like, if we trade Bradley, that will be by far our biggest problem. I'm perfectly happy letting Saenz/Aybar/Robles hold down third base for one more year (although I wouldn't mind Mueller for a reasonable price). Even if we sign a "stopgap" outfielder, I'm not sure what the point is, since we'll then need to find someone next year (nobody's coming from the minors). All of that being the case, I think it's almost essential that we keep Bradley now. I hope Colleti can put his foot down and tell McCourt that.
2005-12-08 18:33:59
262.   molokai
Actually Guzman should be coming in 2007 so we do have help in the minors. Hopefully Guzman will be playing RF for Vegas. D Young is also a possibility once they give him some time in the OF. Both of those could contribute meaningful production in the later parts of 2006.
I think a one year solution is okay and Reggie fits the bill.
2005-12-08 18:35:40
263.   D4P
Isn't "that which makes Guzman special" his offensive numbers as a shortstop, not his offensive numbers per se? I had gotten the impression that he wouldn't be anything special if moved to the outfield.
2005-12-08 18:36:05
264.   Adam
I really liked this quote from Jason Stark's summary of the winter meetings:

"'I wouldn't trade Soriano in the first place. Wilkerson [and the second player] Terrmel Sledge could play for a lonnngggg time and never put up the numbers Soriano does. He's an underrated guy for me,' said one assistant GM."

I'm just glad he doesn't work for the dodgers.

2005-12-08 18:36:20
265.   underdog
Gee whiz... Jeff Kent, Bill Mueller (so it seems), Jose Cruz, Ricky Ledee, maybe even JT Snow, and Colletti... [in PA voice] "Ladies and Gentlemen, yooooour Los Angeles Giants!"

Whose next? Marquis Grissom? Oh wait, we already had him. Robby Thompson?

(Kidding aside, tho, I do kinda like Mueller, again, as a stop gap 3b, a good team player and solid. But let's stop there with the former Giants please, Ned.)

2005-12-08 18:38:53
266.   D4P
I believe that's "San Francisco Giants of Los Angeles."
2005-12-08 18:40:26
267.   dzzrtRatt
Bring back Jack Clark as hitting coach!
2005-12-08 18:46:43
268.   alex 7
Colleti should feel bold as there is not much he could do that would get McCourt to fire him. Honestly, short of a real crime, the embarrassment McCourt would face if he fired anyone in the next six months.
2005-12-08 18:46:45
269.   dsfan
Colletti is screwed. His outfielders are all made of balsa wood, save Repko. He's got to get somebody. Unwise to count on Werth, Bradley, Drew, Cruz. Keep them, but don't count on them. Those guys break a body part every month. And Cruz's back was killing him much of the season.

So Ned is out shopping for outfielders in a sellers market with no talent leverage to exploit in a trade (although I advocate testing the value of Gagne/Kent).

This ain't going to turn out well for the LAD.

Maybe the least worst thing is to buy somebody. Who? Nothing but bad deals out there.

It's highly doubtful that J. Jones will return fair value on the cost to sign him. But J. Jones might not be as bad as other options if he's dumb enough to chose LAD over STLC.

2005-12-08 18:47:33
270.   sanchez101
263. incorrect, BA has repeatedly compared him to Juan Gonzalez and scouts claim he has 40 hr potential. John Sickles compared him to Miguel Cabrera last year, as well as Miguel Tejada. now, he could fall short, but his ceiling is as a middle of the order masher regardless of his position. if he plays SS, he goes from being a potentially very good player to being a potentially special player.
2005-12-08 18:47:36
271.   Adam
262 That's a lot of if's. If Guzman moves to the outfield, and if he's successful, and if Young has a good year in AAA then we'll have two prospects who might be ready to play outfield in 2007. Meanwhile, we have JD Drew (and assuming Bradley is dealt) and two stiffs in the outfield. I'm not saying we can't get by with that, but I just find it odd that everyone is focusing on third base, where we have much more depth, and not on the real hole in our team.
2005-12-08 18:47:36
272.   Adam
262 That's a lot of if's. If Guzman moves to the outfield, and if he's successful, and if Young has a good year in AAA then we'll have two prospects who might be ready to play outfield in 2007. Meanwhile, we have JD Drew (and assuming Bradley is dealt) and two stiffs in the outfield. I'm not saying we can't get by with that, but I just find it odd that everyone is focusing on third base, where we have much more depth, and not on the real hole in our team.
2005-12-08 18:48:10
273.   Marty
Bars for a book signing:

HMS Bounty across from the Ambassador in Koreatown

Barney's Beanery on Santa Monica, West Hollywood

Lucky Baldwin's in Pasadena (200 beers on tap!)

Pete's downtown, 4th and Main

2005-12-08 18:50:34
274.   Adam
I should add, though, that's not to say we shouldn't sign Mueller for a reasonable price. I just think that if dealing Bradley is as inevitable as it's being made out, we better have a real plan, because that's a giant hole and not just for this year.
2005-12-08 18:51:18
275.   D4P
HMS Bounty across from the Ambassador in Koreatown

Maybe HSC could stop by. I bet Jon could set that up...

2005-12-08 18:53:42
276.   sanchez101
269. im not sure if LA or Colletti is screwed, in 2002 the Dodgers won 92 games with an outfield of Brian Jordan, Shawn Green and Dave Roberts, the backups were Grissom and Bocachica. it is possible to win without a particularly strong outfield.
2005-12-08 18:53:49
277.   Marty
Oh, I forgot one of my favorite places:

The Red Lion in Silverlake. German beer and food, great place.

2005-12-08 18:58:13
278.   the OZ
Late to the party, but if I'm not mistaken the high school that Cameron Crowe based Fast Times on is University High in San Diego, which happens to be Mark Prior's Alma Mater.

The movie was filmed at Van Nuys High.

2005-12-08 18:58:19
279.   underdog
269. I agree, thus OF depth is still a concern, and yup, so Jones, overpriced though he, too, may come, may be the best we can do.

I still think we should keep Bradley unless we can get solid OF depth in return, if there's some way to rectify the Kent-Bradley situation. If not, then I guess Colletti's hands are indeed tied.

Hmm, can Tejada play OF? ;-)

It's too bad Matt Kemp won't be "ready" enough to help out this year. Or.... will he?

[cue fade out music]

2005-12-08 18:59:45
280.   MartinBillingsley31
As many here can tell you, i was advocating that the dodgers should keep guzman at ss, he'd be a great ss, but an average to a little above average of,1b,3b depending on how he produces.

That's why i'm not high on the furcal signing, its not the money cause i believe in paying if there are players to pay for, its that guzman would have been a better offensive producer at ss than jeter or nomar, we would have had another alex rodriguez.

2005-12-08 19:00:13
281.   underdog
276. That's not that bad an OF though - well, Jordan, when healthy (a big IF of course)... Roberts gave us some love briefly. Grissom was always solid, Green I always liked, and... um, I'll stop at Bocachica.

Welp, I'm off to play soccer.


2005-12-08 19:02:06
282.   alex 7
Isn't Tejada quietly thought of as a probably juicer by enough people that his services might not be wanted with the 50-game penalty risk?
2005-12-08 19:05:58
283.   slackfarmer
I'm not a fan of signing Mueller, especially if it's a 2 year deal. He's a mediocre 3B defensively (99 Rate2) and his bat is much aided by Fenway. Bill James projects him in 2006 at 283/365/421/786. Not bad, but not so great either. The problem is these are park specific estimates, and Fenway is very favorable to righties. At Dodger Stadium that would translate to about 266/348/388/736. Compare to James 2006 projections for A. Perez of 284/345/412/757. His Rate2 at 3B is 97. Aybar potentially has a higher ceiling than Perez, but his track record is less consistent. I'd rather give Aybar & Perez a shot and use the $3.5 mils or so per year to bolster the OF.
2005-12-08 19:06:06
284.   natepurcell
we would have had another alex rodriguez.

so you wouldnt take arods production if it was from right field instead of ss?

2005-12-08 19:07:07
285.   alex 7
I haven't seen Guzman play SS enough to have an opinion on that, but it's not like there's a plethora of 35-40 HR-hitting outfielders in the national league. If Guzman can reach that potential while continuing to develop his walk ratio, he would be far above "average to below average" offensively even as an OFer or 3B.
2005-12-08 19:11:49
286.   MartinBillingsley31
Of course i would, but to me its all about getting as much power out of the lineup as possible.

Guzman in rf takes up a power position, having guzman at ss allows for another power bat in rf.

Its all about maximizing the power in the lineup, guzman (as you have said) 40 bombs at ss, furcal 10-15 bombs at ss.

I'll take guzman at ss over furcal.

2005-12-08 19:12:12
287.   alex 7
re: 283 what's $3.5 million going to get you in OF help? Sanders? Some would then say Werth or Cruz can do what Sanders will do.

I think we're at the point where the free agents being talked about are solid players with track record while our young guys (Werth, Aybar, Perez) are solid players with no track record. Colleti would be paying very little to feel more assured of what he's getting out of 3B instead of just assuming production from others.

I dont think Colleti can go wrong either way. We're going to get about the same production whether we bring in Mueller or Jones or whether we let the holdovers play. It'll just cost a few extra million for the former to get a known quantity.

2005-12-08 19:13:03
288.   Adam
283 Considering our injury history, I imagine that even if we sign Mueller, Perez and Aybar will get plenty of playing time.
2005-12-08 19:13:54
289.   MartinBillingsley31
I said average TO A LITTLE ABOVE AVERAGE, not average to a little below average.
2005-12-08 19:14:22
290.   natepurcell
re 286

you are having tunnel vision. if we get 30 homeruns from guzman at right field and 30 homeruns from kemp at lf, along with 30 homeruns form laroche at 3b, we have enough power in the lineup.

there are more factors in having a good offense besides power. balance is key.

2005-12-08 19:19:05
291.   MartinBillingsley31
I'm all about obp and slg or ops, the higher the team ops is the better.

I'm not into speed and defense, unless it comes along with guys with high ops (the full package).

2005-12-08 19:19:55
292.   natepurcell
I'm not into speed and defense, unless it comes along with guys with high ops (the full package).

defense is the new OBP, in terms of being undervalued.

2005-12-08 19:21:05
293.   Bob Timmermann
We can have the book signing at my apartment. By my count, I have five chairs and two people can sit on the couch if they don't mind being cozy. And you can take the ottoman and turn that into a chair.

I will provide a six pack of Diet Coke.

And make coffee or tea.

2005-12-08 19:21:31
294.   D4P
I would think that Furcal's $13 million/year contract is an indication that defense is not undervalued.
2005-12-08 19:22:06
295.   slackfarmer
287 $3.5 mil here, $13 mil there, after a while it starts to add up. If McCourt had Yank-sized pockets I wouldn't care. Even if the $75 mil rumors aren't true, it's safe to say payroll isn't going to top $100 mils. I guess we can't really judge Mr. Ned until he's done, but it seems like he's spending a lot of bucks on places that need it less than others.

I didn't like Depo's Valentin signing, but I waited to see his plan unfold. Even if the major injury bug didn't befall the club, Valentin would have been a waste of $3 mils. The only redeeming thing about it is that it was only for 1 year. I sure hope the 2 year rumors about Mueller are wrong.

2005-12-08 19:23:21
296.   regfairfield
292 Mark Kotsay's 8 million dollars a year might tell you differently.
2005-12-08 19:24:03
297.   Uncle Miltie
Rogers, Jones agree to deals with Tigers

My heart skipped a beat when I saw that. Unfortunately, it's Todd, not Jacque.

2005-12-08 19:24:09
298.   MartinBillingsley31
I don't get that, is that a moneyball thing, a cutting corners thing to try to fit into a budget?

I'm not a moneyball guy, as i've said before spend the money if there are guys to spend the money on.

I'm a sabermetrics stat guy willing to spend money if the players are there.

2005-12-08 19:25:18
299.   Uncle Miltie
defense is the new OBP, in terms of being undervalued.
Orlando Hudson was more valuable than Soriano 2 years ago. Last year, I think it was pretty close.
2005-12-08 19:30:55
300.   dsfan
The great Joel Guzman debate is fun but probably much ado over nothing.

The LAD have employed Guzman since July 2001 and by now have a good idea about what he can and cannot do.

By all accounts, the LAD believe Guzman is ill suited to stick at major league shorstop.

The LAD are known to be wrong about a few things, but it's logical to trust them on this one.

It's a pretty simple evaluation to make whether a fourth-year minor leaguer rojects as a major league shortstop. When the kid is one of your own and your coaches and scouts get to see nearly every game he plays, it's even more simple.

Guzman's size works against him in the shorstop projectiions. In February he was listed at 6-foot-6, 225 pounds. He turned 21 just last month so he could be 6-7, 240 any day now.

The Dodgers' projection for him to end up at 1B or RF seem entirely reasonable, regardless of his offensive talents, and probably factors into the decision to invest $39 million in Furcal.

Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2005-12-08 19:31:21
301.   natepurcell
BA's top 10 dodgers prospects come out tonight. the chat will be tomorrow! evereyone should be present!
2005-12-08 19:33:34
302.   Bob Timmermann
The thing about Jones reminds that I kept thinking Mike Sweeney was joining the Giants when it's Mark Sweeney.

Which is sort of like confusing Ted Williams with No Neck Williams.

2005-12-08 19:34:34
303.   natepurcell
i still dont understand some of the thinking here of if guzman cant play shortstop, hes worthless.

i mean, an outfielder putting up a richie sexson type line is still pretty darn good for power numbers.

2005-12-08 19:35:12
304.   Javier Gutierrez
283. Most of us would like to see Antonio Perez at 3B, but the reputation of Perez being a horrible fielder will stick with him forever. So I doubt they woudl have played him at 3B.
2005-12-08 19:41:39
305.   Steelyeri

Defense is not the new OBP. Defense is still over-rated by most baseball people. Rafael furcal might have been under-rated as a defender, but defense as a whole is still over-rated. Also, defense is not even close to OBP in its contribution to winning ball games.

2005-12-08 19:46:23
306.   MartinBillingsley31
2005-12-08 19:48:29
307.   Uncle Miltie
305- yea, underrated defender are undervalued (obviously). Orlando Hudson is one of them
2005-12-08 19:49:59
308.   King of the Hobos
301 What? No it doesn't, tonight is the Rockies. Dodgers are on the 12th. I guess I could be wrong, but I swear it was the 12th
2005-12-08 19:50:08
309.   jason h
So...I never comment until I heard we can hang out at Bob's place... when is that..? Can someone there explain WARP to then? I'll bring the nacho chips.
2005-12-08 19:51:47
310.   natepurcell
dodgers suppose to be monday but the rockies person couldnt do it tomorrow so they bumped the dodgers up.
2005-12-08 19:53:43
311.   King of the Hobos
310 Oh, I knew I read it was Monday. Thanks for clearing that up
2005-12-08 19:55:12
312.   King of the Hobos
It's out

1. Chad Billingsley, rhp
2. Andy LaRoche, 3b
3. Joel Guzman, ss/2b
4. Russell Martin, c
5. Jonathan Broxton, rhp
6. Scott Elbert, lhp
7. Blake DeWitt, 3b
8. Matt Kemp, of
9. Etanislao Abreu, 2b
10. Chin-Lung Hu, ss

2005-12-08 19:57:11
313.   molokai
If your a sabermetric guy then why are you obsessing over OPS? Plenty of better metrics then OPS for determining a players worth these days. Furcal had an OPS of < 800 and was still one of the best offensive players in the NL last year. In offense alone he was a top 25 using VORP. Throw in his defense and using Warp1 he was a top 10. Rafy was a more valuable player then Adam Dunn last year. OPS is nice and simple but it is not the end all.

Nate I'm of the opinion that once JdT moves to RF he'll concentrate on offense and quickly start showing major progress in his game. People throw 30-35 home runs around like anyone can do it. This isn't 2001.

Your plan has to depend on your whole ballclub. You can't have a crappy infield if your employing a GB staff and the last I looked the Dodgers don't exactly miss to many bats in the starting rotation.

2005-12-08 19:57:13
314.   natepurcell
abreu and hu in the top 10? wow....

my guess was

2005-12-08 19:59:09
315.   King of the Hobos
Our best defensive OF prospect was Cody Ross. Umm, I guess we really don't have any OF prospects then, or he's a lot better than I thought
2005-12-08 19:59:50
316.   Bob Timmermann
If you bring chips, bring napkins too.

Someone else should bring dip.

2005-12-08 19:59:54
317.   molokai
Abreu 9 and Hu 10 are surprising.
Still that is a sweet top 10.
2005-12-08 20:02:16
318.   King of the Hobos
Matthews ends the free overview with "The negotiations don't appear salvageable" referring to Hochevar. BA must not like our chances of signing him, but I fail to see how he'd get any money going into the draft again, unless he's amazing for an independent team. He'd still be drafted early, but with all this, how early?
2005-12-08 20:02:19
319.   natepurcell
laroche before guzman is surprising as well, especially when you consider that guzman out hit laroche on the same team.
2005-12-08 20:03:46
320.   D4P
What's your stance on double-dipping?
2005-12-08 20:05:06
321.   molokai
Yes, they dropped Loney off the top 10.
My scout had
Chad Billingsley, rhp
Joel Guzman, 3b/rf
Andy LaRoche, 3b
Russell Martin, c
Jonathan Broxton, rhp
Scott Elbert, lhp
Loney, 1st
Matt Kemp, of
Tiffany, lhp
Kuo, lhp
Denker, 2b
Blake DeWitt, 3b
Chin-Lung Hu, ss
Etanislao Abreu, 2b
Aybar, 2b/3b

as his top 15
2005-12-08 20:05:11
322.   King of the Hobos
Anybody notice how BA classifies Guzman as a SS/2B?! I'm also a little surprised he got beat by Laroche for #2
2005-12-08 20:05:37
323.   Bob Timmermann

We're all friends. Share the communicable diseases.

2005-12-08 20:07:25
324.   natepurcell
Anybody notice how BA classifies Guzman as a SS/2B?!

does BA know something we dont...

2005-12-08 20:09:27
325.   molokai
Hochevar alienated the Dodger brass and Logan White in particular. They no longer feel he has the mental "makeup" of someone they want to give a large bonus to. He screwed up when he pulled the agent switch, then switched again and accussed Logan of lying to him. Untold millions will have slipped through his fingers.
2005-12-08 20:09:53
326.   King of the Hobos
Does BA rank 1-30 or 1-10? I was under the impression you have to pay to get 11-30, but I could be wrong. Anybody know? Don't post any pay stuff, but can anyone give a quick analysis of the pay content?
2005-12-08 20:12:04
327.   natepurcell
1-30 will be in the prospect book i think.

i dont have a BA subscription, but i buy the books. but i would like to know what they say about the 1-10 prospects...

2005-12-08 20:12:25
328.   molokai
Not online, but if you buy the book they go 30 deep.
2005-12-08 20:13:03
329.   Andrew Shimmin
Is there a place to get minor league fielding stats? and baseball cube don't seem to keep them.
2005-12-08 20:13:51
330.   trainwreck
I question the thinking that because he is being jerked around by agents means he can not handle being a major league pitcher. If you know how to pitch, you know how to pitch. One does not have to be the brightest or most mature person in the world to be a good athlete. I think White should put his animosity aside and try to get a deal done with this kid, he has a ton of talent. Maybe do not pay him what you offered originally, but do not give up.
2005-12-08 20:15:28
331.   natepurcell
im quite sadden of how BA has completely soured on chuck tiffany.

last year, he was rated as having the best curveball in the system, and this year in a BA chat a couple of months ago someone said he only has average stuff across the board.

but on a good note, last yr, BA said billingsley has the best slider in the org, now this year they say he has the best curveball in the org. So if he still has last years slider, along with this years curve.... cbills the unstoppable force!?!

2005-12-08 20:15:37
332.   regfairfield
329 BP's PECOTA cards have them.
2005-12-08 20:18:21
333.   fawnkyj
Wow that is a suprising list. I guess the dodgers must be banking on Hu taking SS after Furcal.

Is anybody gonna be participating in the chat tomorrow? I will be at work but can somebody ask a question for me? Id really appreciate it. Here goes:

When the BA staff is comparing stats between the Jacksonville players and other teams' players how much do they take into account the size of the ballpark the suns play in?

2005-12-08 20:19:22
334.   Andrew Shimmin
332- Ah. That's sort of a reality check, isn't it? Do I want to know JtD's minor league stats at SS? Yes; yes I do. Am I willing to pay for this information? Nope. I must not care as much as I thought.
2005-12-08 20:19:42
335.   natepurcell
from the list, i expect the top 8 to be in BAs top 100 list this spring.
2005-12-08 20:23:04
336.   regfairfield
334 It's -4 FRAR.
2005-12-08 20:23:50
337.   molokai
Everyone will love this.
"Martin is similar to former Dodgers catcher Paul LoDuca, with better defensive skills and slightly less offensive ability. He'll probably begin 2006 in Triple-A but could reach Los Angeles in the second half."
2005-12-08 20:24:44
338.   Andrew Shimmin
In case anybody else wants to get in on the fun.

Baseball America's top 10 prospect list:

2005-12-08 20:25:42
339.   D4P
No mention of Heart? What about Soul?
2005-12-08 20:25:48
340.   Andrew Shimmin
336- Thanks.
2005-12-08 20:27:32
341.   molokai
One other tidbit
"One scout described Vero Beach's double-play combo of Hu and Abreu as "the traveling circus show" because of their penchant for defensive highlights. Hu finished second to Abreu in the Florida State League batting race, then hit .343 for Taiwan at the World Cup tournament following the season."
2005-12-08 20:27:51
342.   natepurcell
slighty less offensively ability!?!?


2005-12-08 20:29:39
343.   Brendan
The LAD have employed Guzman since July 2001 and by now have a good idea about what he can and cannot do.

By all accounts, the LAD believe Guzman is ill suited to stick at major league shorstop.

And yet the manager keeps writing SS next to his name in the lineup just for everyone's amusement. Until he is not a shortstop he is a shortstop(Say that 3 times out loud). You don't keep getting taller at 21 when you are already 6'5(in most cases)

2005-12-08 20:30:52
344.   molokai
I'm sure he was referring to the pre-all star LaDuca who is a fine hitter and only slightly related to the post-all star LaDuca who is a cipher.
2005-12-08 20:33:22
345.   natepurcell
i probably dont agree with laroche in front of guzman. and i definately dont agree with abreu in the top 10 (im not a big abreu fan)
2005-12-08 20:34:38
346.   molokai
No but you get thicker and heavier and that is what will move him off of SS. Since they now have a SS they need to get him playing a new position ASAP so his bat can be of some use by late 2006 or 2007.
2005-12-08 20:38:43
347.   Andrew Shimmin
343- Maybe there are peripheral benefits to playing SS in the minors. Some of the best trombone players I ever played with started out as trumpet players. At some point you have to pick a place and stick, but if SS is the hardest position, it seems like it would tend to make the guy who plays it better at whatever position he ends up playing. Like swinging three bats in the on-deck circle makes swinging just one seem easier. I'm sort of making this up, but it sounds good, doesn't it?

Also, the only other SS prospect whose name I know is in A ball. So, somebody had to play SS in Jax.; JtD needed ABs.

2005-12-08 20:39:14
348.   molokai
I agree, I'd take Tiffany and Loney over Abreu but Abreu has skills. They raved about Hu's defensive ability saying his range is "extraordinary"
2005-12-08 20:40:15
349.   Uncle Miltie
I'm glad that Abreu is so high on BA's list. I think they are overrating him. He has very good tools and is an excellent defender, but he has poor plate discipline and not a ton of power (though enough gap power for a middle infielder). He's fast, but he's a poor basestealer. Definitely a raw player. I'd hope that he would be used as trade bait (maybe after he plays in AA)
2005-12-08 20:40:52
350.   natepurcell
abreu does have skills. but his skills would be more beneficial to the dodgers in a trade for something else.

i have dewitt penciled in as the 2b of the future :)

Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2005-12-08 20:41:11
351.   caseybarker

I don't think anyone has taken into account the effect of bad defense, particularly in the infield, on groundball pitchers such as Lowe, Weaver. I mean, it can ruin a pitcher's psyche if routine groundballs scoot through the infield.

Not to mention the job of the catcher to keep the pitcher's confidence, handle the pitchers, etc...

2005-12-08 20:43:53
352.   natepurcell
also, dewitt and hu are like best friends.. and in instrux, they played SS-2b together...they should stay together :)
2005-12-08 20:49:12
353.   Uncle Miltie
352- fine, package them together for Vernon Wells :)
2005-12-08 20:49:55
354.   Uncle Miltie
oops thought you were talking about Abreu and Hu. DeWitt can stay.
2005-12-08 20:52:16
355.   Brendan

You lost me at trombone Andrew, sorry.

2005-12-08 20:54:07
356.   caseybarker

Do you mean trumpet > trombone?!

2005-12-08 20:56:53
357.   Brendan
The dodgers do not have much depth at OF in the majors and high minors. If they really believed there was no chance The Destroyer couldn't play SS wouldn't they move him to the OF in order to get him fast tracked to LA.?

You all have your points but it is not an open and shut case. No matter what BA tells you. That's my point.

2005-12-08 21:02:42
358.   Andrew Shimmin
355,356- Sorry about that. Trumpet music tends to be more technically demanding than the parts written for trombonists.
2005-12-08 21:07:18
359.   Bob Timmermann
The trombone? Who the heck ever came up with that idea?

"Hey, lookee, here, if I slide his big thing in and out of this brass tube while I blow into it, I can make different notes?"

2005-12-08 21:08:19
360.   Sospiro0
It's been quite a while since I heard anyone mention Hong-Chi Kuo's name....not in trade rumors, not as a prospect, not even as a projected reliever. I see him as much more than a loogy next season. With Kuo, Broxton, healthy Gagne, Brazoban, and Sanchez the Dodgers are definitely loaded, if not overloaded with relief. Perhaps a good reason for Broxton going back to starting.
2005-12-08 21:12:11
361.   Sospiro0
not just referring to the D-thoughts, but baseball in general.
2005-12-08 21:17:55
362.   natepurcell
from bills scouting report:

His changeup, which he grips like his fastball except for sliding his index finger to the side of the ball, improved but remains rudimentary

i dont have a baseball by me, but isnt that almost the same as a split/forkball?

2005-12-08 21:23:31
363.   Steve
331 -- Curse of Plaschke.
2005-12-08 21:24:48
364.   dsfan
BA is underestimating Willy Aybar. Assuming he's eligible for the list, he warrants a Top 10 listing.
2005-12-08 21:26:24
365.   Brendan

maybe that is why it's rudimentary. he thinks his splitter is a change up.

2005-12-08 21:26:59
366.   dsfan
Where did Willy Aybar rank on BA's list last year?

He went on to have a pretty good year in Triple-A at age 22 and did some good things in September for the LAD.

2005-12-08 21:27:03
367.   natepurcell
if bills can command his splitter, hes going to be so nasty.
2005-12-08 21:27:27
368.   Steve
How many homeruns do Lowe and Weaver have to give up before I stop hearing about the effects of crappy defense on their pitching? These guys are mediocre pitchers and nobody you put behind them changes that.
2005-12-08 21:27:58
369.   dsfan
Aren't Kuo's medicals pretty scary?
2005-12-08 21:30:00
370.   Brent is a Dodger Fan
245 Re: "Omar Vizquel is pretty good too. Since you have seen them both in person, how would you compare them?"

Well, I've seen much more of Izturis from that vantage point than Vizquel, simply because Vizquel was a Jint only in 2005 and I only go to Whatchamacallit Park when the Dodgers play.

That disclaimer aside: Izturis is said to have grown up idolizing Vizquel, but in terms of style of play, there is no comparison. Vizquel is flashier. He makes hard plays look hard (though executes on them well, so that you think what he is doing is incredible). Izturis, on the other hand, makes hard plays look easy. I get the feeling from being that close that Izturis is really doing something special. He is concentrating so well that he makes the plays the way they are supposed to be made: proper positioning of the body, proper stance when throwing... and the gracefulness of how he gets to those fundamental positions is astounding.

Vizquel: well, he gets to the same balls, but it looks like it is harder to do what he does than it might actually be. I get the feeling that it is even harder to do what Izturis does (set up properly for a ball that's so far out of range).

243 I don't know defensive stats well enough, but it is encouraging to know that his stats tend to show what I've observed isn't a trick of the eye.

That said, I was sad to see him injured this year, since if he could put up an .800 OPS for a season (as opposed to a couple of months), it would seem to make him an all-star caliber shortstop. We may never get to know, with the Furcal signing. But many here seem to posit that Furcal is comparable on defense and clearly better on offense, so there you go.

2005-12-08 21:30:34
371.   natepurcell
aybar had a pretty subpar year in AAA last year, below average in the power departmen due to the league and park he played in.
2005-12-08 21:30:37
372.   Brendan

Homeruns combined or individually?

2005-12-08 21:32:02
373.   Steve
372 -- Let's add them all up and then we can beat the number of comments on this post.
2005-12-08 21:32:16
374.   natepurcell
Aren't Kuo's medicals pretty scary?

nah, just two tommy john surgeries. nothing out of the ordinary.

2005-12-08 21:33:09
375.   Brendan


2005-12-08 21:33:40
376.   Steve
just two tommy john surgeries. nothing out of the ordinary.

So Gagne at 5/60, or should we just go for the 7/100 Bluu Plate Special?

2005-12-08 21:37:38
377.   natepurcell
i still cant believe he named his kid bluu.

what are the names of the other two? burgandy and magenta?

2005-12-08 21:39:25
378.   dsfan

It appears the LAD in fact will move Guzman off shorstop but there was no urgency to do it this year. Not like it hurt him to stay there, and they have given spot duty at other spots.

Sorry if I led you to believe a concern is that he could grow much taller. That's unlikely. It's more his overall size. As he fills out, he easily could reach 240, 250.

But again, this really comes down to the LAD knowing him better than anyone. They say he'll eventually have to move off SS.

Indeed it's alluring to think that he could be a SS, but it probably qualifies as wishful thinking.

Some scouts also doubt his aptitude as an infielder at any spot. They saying his actions aren't the most assertive, that the speed of some plays troubles him.

I bet he's a starting RF in the majors at age 25.

2005-12-08 21:44:11
379.   caseybarker
357, 358-

You're telling me. I started on the trumpet, but switched because "my lips were too large".


I agree, Lowe was not as advertised last year. Seems like everytime he pitched, he gave up a couple of first inning jacks. But how much of those were due to frustration over infield defense. K. Brown would constantly melt down over too many groundballs going through.

2005-12-08 21:44:15
380.   caseybarker
357, 358-

You're telling me. I started on the trumpet, but switched because "my lips were too large".


I agree, Lowe was not as advertised last year. Seems like everytime he pitched, he gave up a couple of first inning jacks. But how much of those were due to frustration over infield defense. K. Brown would constantly melt down over too many groundballs going through.

2005-12-08 21:45:58
381.   caseybarker
Gagne did not have TJ surgery, did he? I thought it was only "fraying" of the ligament.
2005-12-08 21:46:35
382.   Andrew Shimmin
359- I'm glad you asked. The inventor of the trombone was just a re-brander. For some reason, while it was good enough for middle ages frenchmen, 'sackbutt' didn't appeal to 18th century Italians.
2005-12-08 21:47:01
383.   natepurcell
I bet he's a starting RF in the majors at age 25.

so guzman is going to spend 4 years in vegas?

2005-12-08 21:47:39
384.   Brendan

do you still candy from babies as well? Tell young children that there is no Santa Claus? pick the wings off butterfly's? . Give me my Guzman at SS "wishful thinking". Why the rush to grow up so soon?

2005-12-08 21:50:02
385.   Brendan
damn, steal
2005-12-08 21:50:14
386.   Steve
Steve Phillips told me that he had two TJ surgeries. What the?
2005-12-08 21:50:37
387.   caseybarker

And those Abreu rumors are true, too... right?

2005-12-08 21:51:18
388.   Steve
384 -- Some people believe Izturis is going to stop being a wooden shortstop and grow into a real live one. We all have our conceits.
2005-12-08 21:51:44
389.   dsfan

No question, Aybar's total of five HR is poor for a 3B in the PCL. If he goes back to Triple-A this year, he'll need to show more power.

But overall, I wouldn't call it a subpar year for a 22-year-old in his first Triple-A season.

Reputedly he was slightly above average at 3B.

His OBP was .356, his slugging .419. Not great, but respectable, maybe "pretty good" for a PCL rookie who turned 22 in March.

True, Las Vegas is a great hitters park. For what it's worth, Aybar hit .330 on the road.

His walk/strikeout ratio of 4/5.6 was pretty good, too, although he probably needs to walk a bit more. He had 40 walks, 401 at-bats.

2005-12-08 21:53:14
390.   Berkeley Doug
Has anyone else read the stories about LA signing Bill Mueller? Any thoughts?
2005-12-08 21:54:38
391.   dzzrtRatt
359 Gabriel had a little-known brother, Duane. He played trombone for the heav'nly choir. So it goes back aways.

Frank Sinatra says he learned to sing from listening to Tommy Dorsey play the trombone.

My two cents on the "does defense matter very much" debate is that I can't believe it's even a debate. I'm all about not going overboard on any one aspect of baseball--that's why there are 9 players out there. One would quickly tire of a team entirely consisting of slow-footed, stone-handed mashers who also walk a lot. If you had two teams like that playing against each other, it would make the MLB not too different from Little League.

2005-12-08 21:54:57
392.   Brendan

Venezuelan accent: "I'm a real boy now"

2005-12-08 21:55:29
393.   natepurcell
i think aybar is a solid player, a bill mueller type player actually. But he just doesnt have one or two skills that stand out. just an overall solid skill set.
2005-12-08 21:55:53
394.   caseybarker

Don't trust the ex-Met...

2005-12-08 21:56:02
395.   Andrew Shimmin
I think 379 gives me cover to post even more Trombone Thoughts. Trumpets (good ones, anyway) actually do have slides. Because the horn is tuned in standard range, adjustments have to be made when playing high or low. The genius who manufactored the first sackbutt just took that to it's logical conclusion. The trombone reached its peak of excellence in 1961 when J.J. (his middle name was Lewis) Johnson joined the Miles Davis band. It reched its nadir when I took it up.
2005-12-08 21:57:35
396.   Steve
He thinks the Renteria trade was good for the Braves.
2005-12-08 21:57:58
397.   dsfan

I see Guzman spending next year in Triple A, with a late callup.

In 2007, maybe he cracks the lineup, but a lot of rookies got back down at least once, so maybe he yo-yo's a bit.

In 2008, I see him holding a full-time job.

So make it 24 years old, not 25 until after that season.

2005-12-08 21:59:51
398.   Brendan
if they move up the team from Jacksonville to Vegas that is going to be a great road-trip.
2005-12-08 22:00:29
399.   natepurcell
24 sounds reasonable. If he can make the shift to RF without any serious problems, more likely, i see 2007.
2005-12-08 22:00:57
400.   caseybarker
Jason Philips was probably a trombone player...
Show/Hide Comments 401-450
2005-12-08 22:01:25
401.   Steve
392 -- Izturis and his conscience, Jiminy Repko.
2005-12-08 22:02:40
402.   bigcpa
This is 23 hours old but I don't see any mention of it here. Painful read but well argued.

Grady's brain cramps: Not just Pedro

2005-12-08 22:05:39
403.   dsfan

You're certainly with the majority on Aybar. BA and the LAD regard him as a utility man. So do many scouts.

I like that he has a broad set of skills. I love his durability. He's only 22 yet has played a ton of professional baseball.

No question, the power has to improve. If it doesn't, Aybar might not find the playing time to even become a good utility guy.

One bad year in LV, and he could quickly get lost in the shuffle, but I think maybe it's good for him that he's flying under the radar a little.

2005-12-08 22:07:07
404.   Steve
Oh my. Oh my my my my my my.
2005-12-08 22:12:49
405.   natepurcell
i still cant believe the braves got marte. watching his highlights on sportscenter, his swing looks a lot like tejeda but with more power behind it, if you can imagine that.
2005-12-08 22:12:57
406.   Steve
Apparently, the only difference between Grady Little and Jim Tracy is that three-quarters of the time, Tracy skipped all the middle-men and just went straight to the bad matchups. That way he could get four bad matchup at-bats instead of just the one, giving him several more chances a game to be lauded in the LA Times as a contrarian visionary.
2005-12-08 22:13:33
407.   underdog
Too bad the Dodgers lost Bako (haggling over 50K). Now they have to find another backup catcher to mentor the young 'uns. So will it be Alomar? What is he, like 50 now? Either way, I bet Martin's in the bigs by July.


2005-12-08 22:15:11
408.   underdog
405. You mean "got rid of..." Marte, ja? I can't believe it either. Dumb. I guess it's our fault, since we stole Furcal.
2005-12-08 22:15:36
409.   caseybarker
2005-12-08 22:16:48
410.   caseybarker
Steve Phillips says "Great move for Atlanta"
2005-12-08 22:17:39
411.   King of the Hobos
Aybar was injured last year, which didn't help his numbers. The reason so many aren't so high on him is that he was suppose to be so much better. He never developed power as expected, and has ended up a good all around, but unspectacular player. He just doesn't project to be much better than .270/.350/.400. Certainly not a bad player, but could end up being traded
2005-12-08 22:19:01
412.   natepurcell
yea i meant got rid of.

why didnt they come ask for izturis :(

2005-12-08 22:19:18
413.   Steve
Aybar was injured last year

So much for his durability.

2005-12-08 22:22:12
414.   das411
Actual headline in's More MLB News section:

"Bowden not done improving Nationals."

--throws grenade and runs away--

2005-12-08 22:25:54
415.   King of the Hobos
Bowden can still improve CF, we have a really good one in Repko. We won't ask for much, maybe John Patterson. We just need to convince Bowden that Repko is an improvement over Patterson. All it should take is showing Bowden clips of Repko's scrappiness, remember, tools = good
2005-12-08 22:26:06
416.   Brendan
401 404

Damn I can't think of anything funny with Gepetto as a Dodger. Damn you and your repko as a cricket reference.
I pass.

2005-12-08 22:26:56
417.   natepurcell
bradley and odalis for patterson.

it works bowden!

2005-12-08 22:27:11
418.   Andrew Shimmin
But if you compare Aybar's 2004 ST to his 2005 MLB numbers (and ignore everything else), his OPS improved from .888 to .901. He could break a thousand this year! Over some unguessable period.
2005-12-08 22:31:49
419.   Andrew Shimmin
Hey, did Aybar really have 154 ABs (BA .286, 32 SBs!)for the GCL Tigers when he was thirteen years old?
2005-12-08 22:32:08
420.   das411
Mike over up top there has figured out the conspiracy to make the Red Sox into the new Yankees. Worth headin' over there for.
2005-12-08 22:39:52
421.   natepurcell
hey is urbina a free agent?
2005-12-08 22:40:19
422.   King of the Hobos
Yes, but last I knew he was in jail
2005-12-08 22:41:02
423.   Bob Timmermann
Urbina is a free agent in the baseball contractual sense.
2005-12-08 22:43:08
424.   underdog
410 I rest my case.
2005-12-08 22:47:08
425.   caseybarker
I wonder if Rob Neyer ever talks to the on-air "talent" at ESPN, and if so, why hasn't he gone crazy by now?
2005-12-08 22:48:46
426.   FirstMohican
421 - Dusty Baker apparently flew to Venezuela this past weekend to discuss with Urbina his past incidents and the possibility for pitching for the Cubs in 2006. "My days of pouring gas all over my farm workers and threatening to light them on fire are long gone."
2005-12-08 22:48:58
427.   al bundy
Rob at 6-4-2 relays at Pittsburgh news report that Mueller has signed with the Dodgers. From what I've googled, Mueller had a 32.3 VORP, 112 OPS+, and an 18 win share. Impressive numbers. He's also 34 and his knees are creaky, though he has a reliable starter (519 ABs in 150 GP). Cool. An all new left side of the infield.
2005-12-08 22:51:00
428.   dzzrtRatt
420 Maybe more teams should fire their GMs and not replace them.
2005-12-08 22:51:23
429.   FirstMohican
"for" in some instances in post 426 should be replaced with "of."

423 - Haha

425 - I think he has. Didn't he write a book review on that got blown a bit out of proportion?

2005-12-08 22:51:49
430.   natepurcell
with no 2nd or 3rd round pick, we better sign hochevar and then draft stubbs and give him his 3mil major league deal as well.
2005-12-08 22:53:01
431.   Vishal
we need a pitcher, not a belly itcher.
2005-12-08 22:55:21
432.   caseybarker

I think his book about Fenway was controversial. He is the only Bill James, objective type I know of at ESPN. I enjoy his insights.

2005-12-08 22:55:46
433.   Bob Timmermann

Neyer lives in Portland and only appears on TV rarely. He does more work on radio.

2005-12-08 22:57:03
434.   underdog
430 Franklin? What's he up to these days?
2005-12-08 22:59:23
435.   Bob Timmermann
Neyer's book about Fenway wasn't controversial, it just didn't sell well. He posted a review on Amazon of someone else's book on a day at Fenway under a false name and panned it, but he later fessed up to it.

It's the first review listed on for Steve Kettmann's "One Day at Fenway".

2005-12-08 23:49:42
436.   dzzrtRatt
nada about Mueller in tomorrow's Times story.
2005-12-08 23:58:20
437.   LAT
Like they would know. I'm not even sure they've discovered we signed Furcal.
2005-12-09 00:02:14
438.   LAT
Maybe this was mentioned above, but Bob how does it feel to be ahead of Babs Streisand on the cancelling the LA Times curve?

Who knew you were starting a trend for the stars?

2005-12-09 00:13:11
439.   alex 7
I like this headline on's baseball page:

"With new leadership now completely in place, the Dodgers look to return to their old winning ways. Jayson Stark explains."

Old as in 2004?

2005-12-09 00:16:07
440.   Eric L
433 Neyer is on EPSNews every Tuesday with Brian Kenny on The Hot List or whatever it is called.
2005-12-09 00:16:16
441.   natepurcell
we are close to signing a 6 time all star!

go to link to read more!

2005-12-09 00:20:13
442.   alex 7
402 is a good read. Thanks bigcpa
2005-12-09 00:26:21
443.   alex 7
This, from 441, was pleasantly surprising:
Free agent Bill Mueller still is at the top of the Dodgers' third-base wish list, but no deal appears imminent. Without naming names, Colletti seemed to hint that celebrated prospect Andy LaRoche might be ready to come to the big leagues and play every day despite never having played above Double-A.

"You have to be willing to give some younger players a chance," said Colletti, who added he wouldn't be opposed to having as many as three or four rookies on the opening-day roster.

Kuo, Broxton, Billingsley, and LaRoche? Though if LaRoche might be given a chance, wouldn't Colleti first give it to Aybar and Perez? You'd think LaRoche needs more than half of a season at AA.

2005-12-09 00:32:52
444.   LAT
Forget the six-time all-star. The best part of that article was:

"Phillips, who is eligible for arbitration for the first time after making $339,000 last year, will be traded if the Dodgers can make a deal. If not, he will be non-tendered and become a free agent."

A close second was calling Navaro "rifle armed." He is a good catcher but come on, he wasn't exactly gunnin' em down.

2005-12-09 00:35:03
445.   slackfarmer
443 Some local CBS station ran the Mueller signing story, but even CBS sports hasn't yet found it credible enough to report. Hopefully it's not a done deal, and Aybar/Perez/LaRoche will get a shot.
2005-12-09 00:35:42
446.   Uncle Miltie
441- we're getting Derek Jeter?

Ugueth Urbina is only a 2 time all star

2005-12-09 00:44:29
447.   overkill94
Is it just me, or does Ken Gurnick really hate Hee Seop? I don't think he has mentioned his name in one of his winter meetings articles, simply referring to the hole at first base every time. If I could get ahold of this freakin guy...
2005-12-09 00:53:51
448.   Rob M
402 Oh my God. That is exactly what I've been saying about Grady since his name was first mentioned as a candidate. I can't believe that people have been so quick to forgive him of that playoff gaffe. It can only point to some fundamental defect in his thinking. I think I even used that "dance with them that brung ya" line in another post.

I know people make mistakes, but it's hard to fathom a mistake that gargantuan made by someone who is paid to know better. That article only drives that point home, rehashing the repeated errors of planning and strategic anticipation. I'd much rather have a Scoscia with small ball tendencies but sharp game roster management skills than a guy that bungles his bullpen and bench on a nightly basis. I know his supporters point to his record, but what were the pythagorean w-l for his teams? I'm not sure where to look that up. Did they underperform?

I'm pretty optimistic about the Dodgers in general right now, but I think we have something pretty special in Grady Gump.

2005-12-09 01:31:54
449.   Louis in SF
There have been comments on this site reporting the rumor/story out of Boston-CBS-4 that Bill Mueller has signed with the Dodgers for two years. WHile I have nothing against him and obviously he is a friend of Colletie's and Little's, I don't see the great advantage he has over Aybar. Everyone agrees it is a small sample, but at the end of last year Aybar showed great patience at the plate an OBP of over 400 and decent fielding. He did not show power. Mueller on the other hand does seem to be a ballplayer, who also has little power has averaged just over 11 homers per season and has had two seasons with OBP of over 400. With both Guzman and LaRoche close it doesn't seem to make sense to spend the money on that position and rather move it towards the outfield or a starting pitcher.

I understand that Aybar's numbers at the end of the year maybe inflated and pitchers will adjust, but if you are going to take a risk it strikes me this would be the position to do it at.

2005-12-09 06:06:01
450.   RELX
From The LA Times:

There is some discussion within the organization about starting the season with 21-year-old right-hander Chad Billingsley in the rotation, which would lessen the urgency to add another starter.

Show/Hide Comments 451-500
2005-12-09 06:23:34
451.   D4P
Can't believe we missed out on this. Would have been fun to see Alf and Kent fighting (literally) over 2nd base.

*Alfonso Soriano said he has no intention of playing outfield for the Nationals. "I'm going to play second base," Soriano said.
"I don't think they want me to play the outfield," he said. "I think that if they traded for me, it's to play second base. Obviously I have the control. Of course I'm not going to play the outfield."*

2005-12-09 07:13:25
452.   dzzrtRatt
"Obviously, I have the control." Maybe that's the tactic Jason Phillips used last year to get playing time at first base. He would just run out to the field faster than Choi and dibs it.
2005-12-09 07:16:44
453.   D4P
You had me up until "He would just run out to the field faster than Choi and dibs it." I'm guessing J-Phil had to rely more on misdirection than on fleetness of foot.
2005-12-09 07:32:56
454.   Blu2
I found the non-signing of Bako over a $50,000 difference a little odd; for a club that throws around millions and even tens of millions, how can they get excited over a mere $50,000? I never made over $33,000 a year when I worked so it would be meaningful to me. In defense of the Dodgers, that $50,000 would end up somewhere between $60,000 and $70,000 with the payroll taxes etc the must pay. On the other hand, that turns into about $20,000 take home pay to Bako, after Federal Tax, State Tax, Social Security and Medicare, and 10% agent's commission. The number was probably somewhere between $400,000 and $600,000. Taking $20,000 out of that really doesn't seem too significant to me, especially for a washed-up player working his way down the ladder. The job might have lasted two years and turned into an instructor's job in the organization for years to come. Not a good decision on Bako's part. Personally, I don't care whether they sign Bako or Alomar for the job.
2005-12-09 07:43:03
455.   dzzrtRatt
Is Jason Michaels desirable? Over at Bronx Banter, they cite a NY Post story saying the Yankees have been offered Michaels for Tanyon Sturtze and Sean Henn.

His numbers look pretty good. The Yankees' concern, allegedly, is he's never been a regular. That might not be the Dodgers' problem.

2005-12-09 08:02:37
456.   heato
Does Plaschke have twin brother in Dallas?

2005-12-09 08:06:28
457.   Steelyeri
In his article, Tony Jackson called Dioner "The rifle-armed Navarro." I never thought that he had that reputation.

He also writes " The light-hitting Navarro also was surprisingly productive at the plate."

Is it just me or are most writers off when describing Navarro? I thought his reputation was that of a Solid defensive catcher who calls a good game and has a solid (but not spectacular) arm.

Offensively I had always heard of him having excellent plate discipline and good power to the gaps (for a catcher). Adding to his value was that he is a switch hitter.

He has performed well at every level of the minors despite being very young. He's only 21 and already has half a season of Major League experience under his belt.

I would be more than satisfied with Navarro as our catcher of the future. He has already showed last season that he is something special. He should only gets better as he matures and His body fully develops.

2005-12-09 08:12:59
458.   dzzrtRatt
456 From that Dallas column:

So, could Wilkerson be flipped for a starting pitcher?

I seriously doubt it.

Think again, terse-boy! Odalis Perez, left-hander extraordinaire, can be yours!

Later in the column, this writer refers to the other outfield trade-bait, Keven Mensch, as "Big Head."

2005-12-09 08:16:37
459.   rageon
Did I miss the reason why we must have an old catcher with no offensive skills? Perhaps the players union got that with the last CBA, so now all teams have to carry at least 1 catcher over 30. Why can't we just go with Navarro and Martin right away? If they need a "mentor", wouldn't it make more sense to hire someone to just help them, and only help them, rather than someone we actually have to you? Fine, hire them a catching coach. Even hire Alomar if you want. Just don't play him.
2005-12-09 08:17:19
460.   Steelyeri

Wow the resemblance is uncanny. Judging from his "paragraph" structure, I would be surprised if this guy didn't have the same English 101 professor as Plaschke.

Here are my favorite parts...

"With Sori's game, the pros outweigh the cons. That means bat compared with glove."

"And don't give me all your seam-headed statistical mumbo-jumbo. Check the overall plate numbers. Better yet, watch the damn games."

"Sori can play on my team anytime."

"And an intangible was his clubhouse demeanor."

Sounds like Plaschke moping about the departure of the great Alex Cora.

2005-12-09 08:25:29
461.   Bob Timmermann
Alex Cora has bought one Christmas present for every child who was displaced from the Gulf Coast by Hurricane Katrina.
2005-12-09 08:29:30
462.   Jon Weisman
459 - That has been my position all along: Dividing 162 games among Russell and Dioner gives each plenty of work for their ages, and hiring a catching coach gives them plenty of instruction.
2005-12-09 08:29:45
463.   FirstMohican
"And don't give me all your seam-headed statistical mumbo-jumbo. Check the overall plate numbers."

...sounds like "I'm only concerned with data that doesn't challenge my assumptions."

2005-12-09 08:34:37
464.   Brent is a Dodger Fan
443 Dontcha think that a talented negotiator would mention that he has a backup plan (that he believes in) to whatever he's trying to close on?

In other words: "Hey, Mueller... I can take or leave you, since I can always try my real prospects at third... So how about you take a few million less if you'd like to sign with us?"

2005-12-09 08:36:31
465.   das411
462 - Can the catching coach be a certain (formerly bearded, even!) #31?
2005-12-09 08:45:50
466.   Colorado Blue
462, 459 - I would make the argument, however unfounded, that actually having a playing mentor would give Dioner better in-game insights into how Alomar actually handles the pitchers and game calling instead of just being "taught" these things in a more academic environment.
2005-12-09 08:47:17
467.   brandesh
Is anyone else getting nervous that Bowden may decide to trade Soriano now?
2005-12-09 08:47:42
468.   natepurcell
the BA article on the dodgers top 10 is up on primer and i really dont like that smart alec dbacks fan. any chance he gets, he trashes the dodgers constantly.
2005-12-09 08:49:48
469.   natepurcell
Is anyone else getting nervous that Bowden may decide to trade Soriano now?

no way, soriano is the typical bowden player. flashy, toolsy, and sucky.

i should have known before when all ths soriano rumors were flying. Never count bowden out if there is a toolsy player available!

2005-12-09 08:54:24
470.   dzzrtRatt
Could it be that Bowden is getting ready to trade Vidro? He'd fetch a lot of whatever else it is the Nats need.
2005-12-09 08:55:58
471.   blue22
Soriano seems pretty dead-set against the OF though. Does Vidro have any trade value at all? He's aging (31), recently hurt, and has a nice little contract tagging along (3yrs/$23M)?
2005-12-09 08:56:06
472.   Rob M
456 I go to Dallas often for Business. Galloway also has a big drive-time radio show. Imagine if Plaschke had that forum as well? Galloway is a different kind of charcter - a hard drinkin', a cussin' and a spittin', gol durn sumbitch. Texas is full of them.
2005-12-09 09:03:22
473.   MartinBillingsley31
Why bother signing alomar, just go with navarro and martin.
2005-12-09 09:08:22
474.   blue22
470 - If they want something of value in return, and not just a roster dump, they might need to package him with Patterson. Not sure LA should be interested even then.

I'd look at Texas though, who seems to be looking to move Wilkerson. The ol' Odalis for Wilkerson deal could still be viable.

2005-12-09 09:17:02
475.   djt
The gentlemen over at "Fire Joe Morgan" have done us the courtesy of shredding Plaschke's column about the Grady Little hire:
2005-12-09 09:19:46
476.   Jon Weisman
466 - But ultimately, that's all done by watching. Martin and Navarro could certainly watch the opposing catcher in each game, and then talk to the catching coach about it.
2005-12-09 09:20:27
477.   Curtis Lowe
After reading over at 6-4-2 that our prospects are essentialy over rated except for Billingsly, I was left with a weak feeling in my stomach but then I rememberd that those kids are the Southern League Champions of the world so they must be doing something right. Do we really expect a bunch of 21 yr kids to make a major impact for the Big club? I dont, Do I expect these same kids to come out swinging when they are around 23-24? You bet your ass I do.
2005-12-09 09:25:07
478.   natepurcell
if im not a BA subscriber is there still a way i can get in on the chat?
2005-12-09 09:30:25
479.   dzzrtRatt
472 Dallas: Future home of Reggie Bush.
2005-12-09 09:41:42
480.   Colorado Blue
473 - I'm personally not comfortable with 2 rookie catchers on the 25... I think some GOOD veteran leadership behind the plate is prudent.

Having said that I have no idea who that should be, but it sounds as if Alomar would fit the bill.

2005-12-09 09:42:27
481.   blue22
479 - Do you mean Houston? Regardless, Bush is going to the Niners. Houston can beat AZ at home next week, setting up the showdown of two 2-13 teams last week of the season, "battling" over the #1 pick.

I have the utmost confidence in the 49ers ability to lose the big one.

2005-12-09 09:42:36
482.   Jon Weisman
It's old news for you commenters, but I recapped the minor league stuff in a new post above.
2005-12-09 09:44:29
483.   Colorado Blue
476 - Perhaps, but there maybe too many questions that Dioner would have for the opposing cather he could not get answered by the coach.
2005-12-09 09:46:40
484.   Jon Weisman
480 -I don't know. I'd like to think outside the box on this one. The veteran leader is being signed to play a minority of games, so by definition he can't be that important as far as in-game impact. If he is truly over the hill, he might hurt the team as much as he helps.

And again, does the veteran role model for Martin and Navarro specifically have to be an on-field catcher, or can it be a combo of an off-field catcher and an on-field pitcher or position player? I'm open-minded on this, but I'm not convinced that the need for a veteran catcher on the roster isn't a myth.

Of course, if people feel Martin could use more seasoning in the minors, that's another story.

2005-12-09 09:57:21
485.   Jon Weisman
483 - I think you're stretching, here.
2005-12-09 09:59:02
486.   dzzrtRatt
479 What is wrong with me? I meant Houston of course.
2005-12-09 10:10:22
487.   natepurcell
apparently mueller was on espn radio this morning and said he was thrilled to come to LA.
2005-12-09 10:21:02
488.   natepurcell
this is stupid, last year you could participate in the chats without being a BA member.
2005-12-09 10:24:22
489.   Colorado Blue
485 - A solid difference of opinion is healthy... that's why I love this site :)
2005-12-09 10:26:24
490.   Jon Weisman
488 - Yeah, I'm surprised by that.

489 - Right on. It's definitely a question worth debating - I don't see a definitive right or wrong answer yet.

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