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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
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Deja Vu: NFL Won't Park with Dodgers
2005-12-27 22:32
by Jon Weisman

Dodger owner Frank McCourt is interested in building a football stadium for an NFL team on the Dodger Stadium parking lot, according to NFL spokesman Greg Aiello in a Boston Herald story by Scott Van Voorhis. However, the report goes on to say that the NFL is focused on bids by the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum and by Anaheim.

In a statement last night, McCourt indicated that for now, Dodger Stadium is off the table as a football venue.

"While we understand that Dodger Stadium is an attractive site, so long as the (Los Angeles) Coliseum is a viable site (for the NFL), Dodger Stadium should not be considered as a competing venue."

It was widely reported in the 1990s that Peter O'Malley explored the same idea at the behest of Mayor Richard Riordan, only to have Riordan change his mind and ask O'Malley to give up his bid and support the Coliseum. The turn of events, many believe, was key to O'Malley deciding to sell the Dodgers.

As far as the NFL's spurning of Chavez Ravine, no pigskin off my nose.

Comments (145)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2005-12-27 23:31:09
1.   Xeifrank
Personally, I could really care less if there is professional football in Los Angeles. As a kid, I probably wouldn't like it, but now that I am older, wiser and much grumpier I prefer not having a team. And for the record, I could live without a hockey team in SoCal too. I mean, we already have a pro football team playing in the Rose Bowl next week and aren't the Bruins a hockey team?
Go Dodgers! vr, Xei
2005-12-27 23:51:07
2.   Andrew Shimmin
If the current Cleveland Browns owner could be convinced to move the franchise out to L.A., I'd be in favor of it just because it would be funny. Other than that, I'm content not having a local pro team.
2005-12-27 23:59:39
3.   popup
People complain now about getting out of the Dodger Stadium parking lot, wait until they have to detour around a football stadium. Seriously, if these moves result in McCourt being an NFL instead of an MLB owner, I am all for a football team in LA.

Curiously, I don't care that much about football, basketball or hockey now (never did care about hockey really) but when I did follow football and basketball, I was not a fan of the Lakers or Rams. If McCourt ends up with a football team, there is no doubt who my least favorite NFL team would be.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-12-28 06:21:13
4.   Penarol1916
Being in a no-football city is very preferable to being in a city with an NFL team if your goal is to watch the good games without having to get DirecTV.
2005-12-28 06:41:05
5.   TheDictator
I grew up in Ohio. I played High School and College Football. In this great state, football is king with baseball playing fourth fiddle. Literally! A recent Dayton Daily News survey found that the most popular sports in Ohio (in order) are 1. College Football 2. Pro Football 3. High School Football then came 4. Pro Baseball

With this as my background, I simply cannot understand how anyone can claim that they do not want a Pro Football team in their city. It just blows my mind.

Can someone who lives in SoCal explain this to me?

2 If the Browns left Cleveland again I think there would be mass suicide by the lake. Browns fans have an existential connection to their team.

For what its worth. On the shelf above my computer desk I have a miniture helmet of The Ohio State Buckeyes, the Cincinnati Bengals, and yes my beloved Piqua High School Indians.

People preferring no Pro Football . . . confusing!

2005-12-28 06:42:29
6.   TheDictator
2 You guys wouldn't want the Indy Colts? That team is more likely to move than the Browns. Indiana hates football.

Correction: They hate all football not Notre Dame.

2005-12-28 07:08:13
7.   Jacob L
5, OK, I'll take a crack at it. Pro football is basically fun for gambling and watching on t.v. You don't need a local team for that. Going to the games adds little to nothing (at least in my 80s Rams' outings), and is certainly less exciting than going to college games.

On top of that, the sticking point for the NFL has been their need for huge public subsidies. Not to make a team in LA workable, mind you, but more so that they don't set a bad precedent in their attempts to screw other cities. Study after study shows that the public gets little to no return on these expenditures.

That said, I guess it comes down to how much you like football. For me, not that much.

2005-12-28 07:21:06
8.   Penarol1916
5. To me college and high school football are completely different animals than the NFL. I love college football, but really haven't cared too much about the NFL since the mid-'90's when I moved to DC and was forced to watch mediocre Redskins teams with no alternative on the other channel, while the Ravens would be the afternoon game on the AFC (NBC then CBS) channel while Fox would just show the Redskins post game show. Very little excitement, not much fun to attend and a lot more player movement than the other professional sports along with enforced mediocrity, not my idea of much fun.
2005-12-28 07:23:15
9.   Sushirabbit
Heh, I sort of became concious of football in 72, just north of Miami.

Up until that time all I knew was baseball-- I still have the scar on my head from laying out to catch a fly ball in 12" high grass (unfortunately for me there was a concrete marker square at the end of my fall, I caught the ball though!). I probably practiced kicking a football about twice as much as I ever took batting practice or took grounders.

Then I moved to Knoxville and went to UT. So I love football, college more so, but Baseball is still my favorite. I prefer the Nashville Sounds over the Tennessee Titans (even when the Sounds suck and the Titans make the playoffs).

2005-12-28 08:17:36
10.   Slikk
I'll never understand why there are so many that say they're not interested in having a home team to root for. Don't you guys like to root for the home team (aka Dodgers)?

The NFL means nothing to me with no team to root for (granted, I'm still a holdover Raider fan, but I hate NoCal for obvious reasons).

2005-12-28 08:19:44
11.   Sushirabbit
I keep hearing Joni Mitchell...
"paved the Elysian Lot to put up a football field..."
2005-12-28 08:20:13
12.   Marty
I was a huge Rams fan in the 60's and 70's. But after they moved to Anaheim, they became less and less interesting. I did see Vince Fferraggammo throw for 500 yards in a losing cause once though. I never cared about the Raiders and can't really remember anything about their two stays here outside of the Marcus Allen superbowl. USC football has been the only football passion that has stayed with me through the years.
2005-12-28 08:40:47
13.   Sushirabbit
And another thing... It has been my experience that football fans are dumber in general than the fans of any other sport. Maybe that's not what I mean, maybe I always end up sitting next to some yokel who has to voice his stupidity at every opportunity. Football and Basketball seem to have even more of the "fairweather" type fan than say Hockey or baseball.

I happen to believe there is a special place in Heaven for the true Braves fans that have to put up with the Johnny come latelys. Especially those who lived through the 77 season or those wonderful Tanner Years.

I almost enjoy the games where no one but the diehards show up more than the playoff games.

If I were an owner I'd sell season tickets at the same price for everyone and then you'd start getting the good seats based on attendance and seniority (total amount of games attended) ties to be decided by scorecard collection.

2005-12-28 08:53:33
14.   Slikk
I agree with the fairweather fan description. Which I why my fav sports are hockey and baseball. ;)

I dunno about football fans not being smart though. You have to have a brain to play football.

2005-12-28 08:58:34
15.   Jon Weisman
I was raised on the Rams. My Dad arrived in Los Angeles with his parents in 1950, and got Ram tickets the next year. Three generations of our family went to games through the first year in Anaheim.

The Dodgers supplanted the Rams for me by that point, but frankly, I'm not sure why more people don't want the NFL here. I get that it's much better for TV not to have a team here, but not everyone cares about that. It might be that football ended on such a down note here that people can't concieve of having a team worth rooting for.

If USC football had moved out of town during the Ted Tollner era, would there be a clamoring to bring another college football team here?

2005-12-28 09:09:07
16.   Marty
Ted Tollner and Larry Smith came very close to making me give up college football.
2005-12-28 09:19:36
17.   Robert Fiore
Part of the attraction of Chavez Ravine to the NFL the first time around was Peter O'Malley as an owner. But nowadays, I mean, McCourt . . .

It's not that Los Angeles doesn't want football, it's that it isn't willing to pay 300 to 500 million dollars of public money as a bribe to people who are already rich in order to get it. While principle has something to do with it, the reality is that the city just doesn't have that kind of money to spend on fripperies. Because the city stuck to its guns it's going to have an NFL team with a new stadium paid for at NFL expense. A more pertinent question would be, why are you people out there such suckers?

It's not as if L.A. is football starved. If you haven't noticed, USC is vying for its third straight national championship. There's actually more NFL on TV now than when the Raiders and Rams were here. Because the Coliseum is a huge venue with a lot of bad seats and the Rams sucked, games seldom sold out and home games were thus blacked out. Because of NFL rules, when a home game was being played there couldn't be a TV double header, and there was almost always a home game being played in those days. The slogan was that the NFL needed Los Angeles more than Los Angeles needed the NFL, but the fact is the NFL's need wasn't that great either. Nevertheless, L.A.'s resistance was stronger. As to what not being in L.A. means to the NFL, I remember a Super Bowl Sunday a couple of years ago. During the game, which I wasn't watching, I had gone to get some takeout at a Thai restaurant in Koreatown, where the primarily Hispanic clientele had their eyes glued on the TV screen. They were watching a soccer game.

2005-12-28 09:20:23
18.   King of the Hobos
The San Diego Union-Tribune seems to think the Dodgers have offered a package of pitching prospects to the Red Sox for David Wells. If this is true, I'd be very scared
2005-12-28 09:26:37
19.   Andrew Shimmin
I never rooted for either the Raiders or Rams. I was a 49er bandwagoner in the late 80s (I was young and my dad hadn't explained that such is a moral failing). Maybe I'm not enough of a fan of pro football to sustain a rooting interest in an NFL team.

99 reasons baseball is better than football:

#19 is sadly nostalgic.

2005-12-28 09:30:25
20.   LAT
3. If McCourt ends up with a football team, there is no doubt who my least favorite NFL team would be.

Ditto. Frank professes to love baseball and look how badly he screwed that up. Imagine what happens if he enters a sport he really knows nothing about.

This is all a pipe dream anyway. The odds of the NFL giving Frank a franchise after seeing what he has done with the Dodgers is about a couple of of billion to one. But it would be interesting to watch (in a goulish car accident sort of way).

2005-12-28 09:32:30
21.   blue22
I was just at the Clippers game last night, and there's been talk of putting a football stadium downtown. I think you'd have to improve public transit to make it happen, but it would be an intriguing area with Staples and a football stadium.

Now in 10 years, when they want to build a new baseball stadium there...

By the way, what does the USC crowd in here think about the Saints moving to LA, hiring Pete Carroll as the coach, and drafting Matt Leinart. Too good to be true?

2005-12-28 09:52:08
22.   LAT
21. I know this is heresy but I am one of the 12 people who think the Dodgers would be better off with a new stadium near Staples.
The problem is there is nothing wrong with DS. DS is like a 10 year old Mercedes. Nice in its day, still runs fine, you have some great memories and it will go a deal longer but lets face it the new cars are better.

1. If there is public transporatation to and from Staples its a no brainer. In and out is so much easier and it means resturants and bars etc. Which means people come early and stay late.

2. It transforms the area. Look at SBC, Petco and PNC to name a few.

3. DS is too big. Smaller parks are nicer.

4. Downtown is in the process of a transformation. Every old building is converting to lofts. The rest of the infrastructure, supermarkets, movie theathers etc is soon to follow.

5. Memories. I thought I would never get used to Staples, actually still don't like it but its better than the Sports Arena or the Forum. I still have my memeories of these places.

6. I am so tired of the traffic in and out of DS. I will listen to any solution.

2005-12-28 10:01:27
23.   Vishal
[21] hey, i only saw part of the 3rd/4th quarter at a bar last night. why did the clippers lose so badly to the KINGS?? what was wrong?
2005-12-28 10:07:24
24.   Jon Weisman
22 - Ease of transportation, both public and private, is the only incentive I can see for moving the Dodgers. I know every route to Dodger Stadium and I'm tired of how long it takes to get there, too.

But as for the other reasons ...

I see no imperative to have people arrive early and stay late - and given the traffic realities that exist even if you moved the team, it's not like people can even get there any sooner. I'm also skeptical that a downtown ballpark would cause people to linger.

There's no need for the Dodgers to transform downtown. If that's a fringe benefit of a reasoned move, that's fine. But there's plenty of other development downtown. I'm all for community - we're trying to make LACMA a cultural center for Los Angeles ourselves. But downtown hardly needs a ballpark.

Smaller parks aren't nicer than bigger parks. Nicer parks are nicer than not-nice parks.

Memories - yes, you can certainly generate good memories at a new ballpark, but that's not a reason to build one.

2005-12-28 10:07:35
25.   bhsportsguy
22 - One of my complaints during last season was the removal of the option to take a shuttle bus from Union Station to the Dodger Stadium on Friday evenings. I thought it worked out it well. I also complained that the MTA bus stop is on Sunset, which still leaves a little hike into the stadium.

I realize parking is a big part of the game revenue but it would be great if there was some effort put in providing alternatives to driving your car into Dodger Stadium.

Having been to Denver to see the Dodgers play the Rockies this year and then going back to see a Bronco game at Invesco, the public transportation options are great to get in and out of the area. I was staying in the downtown area so I was able to walk to Coors Field but there are some shuttle options that cut down the walking plus there are lots of bars/restaurants in the area. And even going to Invesco, which ultimately did have a little walk was still pretty quick.

2005-12-28 10:07:56
26.   blue22
23 - The Clips are the Clips. They've lost 10 in a row to the Kings now.

Actually it was Bibby doing the damage, with a healthy dose of help from Mike Dunleavy. He was playing some very odd combinations of players, including a 3 guard backcourt for most of the game.

The fans actually booed though. I don't care how bad they lose, and to whom, you can't boo the Clips when they're in first place this late in the year. Tacky, if you ask me.

2005-12-28 10:13:48
27.   Bob Timmermann
If the Saints moved to L.A., USC fans better get ready to go see their team play football games in another stadium for a season.
2005-12-28 10:15:38
28.   Jon Weisman
As much as I defend local fans, they have never seemed as boorish or spoiled to me as they do now. I just think booing means something different now. In my mind, booing the home team used to be reserved for something particuarly egregious. Now, people boo at the slightest misfortune.
2005-12-28 10:20:21
29.   blue22
27 - I would assume the NFL would want the Saints moving to LA. They currently have 32 teams, so expansion appears out of the question for now. Most of the traditional teams that would jump at a move seem somewhat stable (Indy, Minnesota, AZ, SD). New Orleans, though "kick 'em when they're down" comes to mind (this team was in bad shape even before Katrina however), would be the most likely to move.
2005-12-28 10:35:49
30.   Bob Timmermann
Scene: San Antonio, Texas.

A restless Tom Benson can't fall asleep. He pours himself a drink of a mysterious beverage he finds on his night stand. The drink sends Benson into a daze.

He is visited by an old man who appears somewhat spectral.

"Tom? Tom? Do you know who I am?"
"Are you Pete Rozelle?"
"No, I'm not Pete Rozelle."
"Are you Norm Van Brocklin?"
"Why would Norm Van Brocklin be visiting you?
"I don't know, I'm tired."
"I'm Walter O'Malley!"
"You're that baseball owner guy!"
"So what's new?"
"I'm dead."
"That's what I thought."
"I want you to avenge me. AVENGE ME."
"I want you to avenge me!"
"Oh. How so? Do I need to kill someone?"
"No, just move your football team to Los Angeles and then I can go to my rest."
"But people will hate me."
"They already do. Trust me."

2005-12-28 10:38:59
31.   King of the Hobos
Garland signed a 3 year, $29 mil contract, so I'm guessing he's off the trading block. Contreras could be available though
2005-12-28 10:48:08
32.   willhite
31 -

Might make him more tradeable. At least whichever team would get him would know they had him for three years, instead of having to worry about free agency after next year.

I assume that this does mean he won't be coming here, although you never know. Maybe Garland at 3/29 would seem better to Ned than Weaver at 4/40. Hopefully he doesn't do either of those.

2005-12-28 10:50:43
33.   DodgerJoe
RE: 3, 20
I know that McCourt did not get off on the right foot in owning the Dodgers in many ways.

But look at what he's done this offseason, letting Colletti spend a ton of money while hopefully putting a winner on the field.

McCourt is a first time owner and there have been growing pains, but I want to give him the benefit of doubt as this offseason has been excellent.

2005-12-28 11:00:39
34.   Jon Weisman
33 - McCourt also raised ticket prices. I'm not saying he doesn't have the right to, but that should factor into an evaulation of his offseason.

And, of course, the sequence of the Tracy and DePodesta firings is part of this offseason as well.

2005-12-28 11:03:36
35.   Gilgamesh
5 - The Rams and Raiders left about the same time I was getting interested in the NFL, so I never had a reason to be a fan of either team. However, in my experience, Socal fans have had no problem building strong ties with out-of-state teams. I am a Buffalo fan, and virtually every NFL friend I have has a different team that is 'theirs'. In my group, we have a Tampa fan, Seattle fan, Dallas fan, Minnesota fan, and Cleveland fan. And none of us mind seeing the Chargers win either. What makes having this senario so appealing is that every game has important consequences for at least someone in our group. One of the guys has five TVs set in an array, (two sunday tickets, two cable subscriptions, and a local channel) so we can hang out and watch pretty much every game that is on.
Occasionally I will attend an NFL game, but one per year is plenty. And at that rate, going to San Diego or Phoenix is actually enjoyable. In fact, one friend I have only goes to Charger pre-season games, because he doesn't want to 'waste' his sunday on a single game.
So NFL fandom is plenty strong in SoCal, but its manefested differently than cities with teams. In fact, since so many have formed allegiences to out-of-state teams, I think if we got a local team many would only attend when their remote team was playing the local team, and thus be rooting against the local team. What NFL owner would want that?
2005-12-28 11:03:46
36.   DodgerJoe
34 - I'm not as concerned with ticket prices as they are nominal raises for the seats I buy.

But you are right about the firings. It seems he was in Depo's corner the whole time. Somethng must have happened for him to fire Depo after Tracy

2005-12-28 11:08:48
37.   Felton

Jon, that's the way I feel about the Saints. My parents could get four kids season tickets for $15 each (all ten games) - cheaper than a babysitter, even in 1970 to 1975. We sat with the same people for many years. It's a great memory. The NFL is no longer like that, though.


Bob, that was hilarious. There were many scenarios of Benson as Scrooge being tossed around here. I can tell you the man is utterly despised in New Orleans, and it's all been his doing. George Shinn, who owns the Hornets, has done nothing but say he will be back in New Orleans - a comparison of attendance figures in Oklahoma City and pre-Katrina New Orleans tells you he will not return, but he will walk away clean. Benson has said nothing, and his actions speak volumes. I will say that I think he has almost purposely mismanaged the franchise to get out of New Orleans. He has been capable of good hires (Jim Finks and Randy Mueller) but he has fumbled soon after (Bill Kuharich and Mickey Loomis). He has done everything possible to alienate New Orleans fans. The Saints did no promotional work for the games in Baton Rouge and they turned away many people who wanted to buy group packages for those games. If the Saints move to LA or San Antonio, I just hope it is for a better deal. I can't be bitter about a sound business decision, but what Benson has done has not given the fans here a chance to support the Saints, as woeful as they are and have been. I honestly think if Benson moves to LA and hires a good GM and leaves him alone, LA will have an excellent team with a squirrely owner who sometimes forgets to take his meds.

2005-12-28 11:09:46
38.   LAT
24. Jon, not sure what the concern with fans lingering is. I think its a good thing. For those who linger there are places to go and other fans to have contact with while traffic dissipates. (Who knows I might meet a fellow DT poster in person) The bars around Wrigley and SBC are packed before and after games. For those who don't linger traffic is slightly alleviated by those not rushing home. It also leads to more comrade. Its like tailgating at a football game only it takes place in a bar.

As for smaller stadiums, I just like them. They are closer to the field, the sight lines are better, the seats and concessions are better and they are easier to police. Call me a snob but I hate paying for good seats at DS and by the 4th inning a gang of tatted, shaved head, drunk 20 yrs old is yelling Barry F-ing sucks in front of my daughter. The new stadiums keep people in their designated area. I recognized this can be cured by increasing security at DS but for whatever reason its not working. In general the DS experience has declined for me.

Finally, I agree that urban renewal is not a reason to build a new stadium but it is a nice benefit.

2005-12-28 11:11:50
39.   Linkmeister
Has there ever been a demographic study of Dodgers fans, I wonder? I'm thinking of questions like "distance driven to get to DS" and its corollary "how long does it take you to get to DS and then back home." Might be enlightening.

I worked in Culver City in the mid-1980s, and one of my co-workers commuted from Diamond Bar. I wouldn't drive that far every day for fun, much less for work.

2005-12-28 11:12:23
40.   Steve
Sorry, LAT. I'll try to keep it down next time.
2005-12-28 11:13:17
41.   Jon Weisman
38 - I'm not concerned about fans lingering, as long as they aren't driving home drunk. I'm just not sure that they will linger, even given the opportunity. Los Angeles is not Chicago.

But you tell me. There are at least 82 NBA games at Staples each year. Do fans linger?

2005-12-28 11:18:11
42.   TheDictator
8 If Washington tests your patience, try watching the Bengals for the past 15 years. My brother, a lifelong Bengals fan, is now a Browns fan due to the past 15 years.

7 I guess I disagree with your statement that football is for gambling and watching on T.V. I admit I am not a typical fan, I watch football for the strategy. I would watch the whole game from the wide angle shots if possible. Football on T.V. is almost not worth watching. You simply cannot see the whole field. Therefore you miss the real "game". I guess years of watching and breaking down film have ruined football for me as a T.V. watcher. The best way to watch football is live.

As for the money sucking NFL, I will mention the Cincinnati did build Paul Brown Stadium. But the lease had a clause they Mike Brown had to field a competitive team. When the city threatened to sue Mike Brown over the losing seasons a lot of changes were made. Among those changes were Marvin Lewis, updating weight training and video facilities, the hiring of scouts, and the drafting of Carson Palmer (drafts have been a sore spot for my Bengals). So, maybe LA should follow Ciny's lead on stadium funding. Making the funding provisional on fielding a competitive team. If the teams are not competitive then the owner must reimburse the city.

It amazes me that on a website where people get into in-depth statistical analysis in order to evaluate performance and predict future performance in baseball that the same approach would not be made with football. I know it is being done.

I just don't understand why SoCal's don't want Pro Football in LA. I will admit the football in the PAC-10 is some of the most underrated in the country. Bowl games ususally go a long way to evening that out.

2005-12-28 11:19:24
43.   Andrew Shimmin
33- This offseason has been an uninsured, elective appendectomy. Expensive, painful, and of dubious benefit.
2005-12-28 11:21:42
44.   LAT
33. I cannot think of one thing that Frank has executed properly on. Hiring Ned may be an improvement but there are people here who would tell you Ned has done nothing extraordinary. Moreover, Ned came only after a confused botched GM search--an all to common story where Frank is involved. I think we are on the right path but only because things got so bad they couldn't get much worse. Sorry, I am past cutting Frank slack for growing pains.
2005-12-28 11:25:08
45.   Robert Fiore
The window for building a stadium of any kind in downtown L.A. has closed. The land is too expensive now.

I think it might be fun to have an intimate, close-to-the-action ballpark.

2005-12-28 11:26:05
46.   Gilgamesh
39 - I have no interest in lingering exactly because of the long drive. I leave Temecula at 4:15 for a 7:10 start and get home after midnight, which work for me 15-20 games a year.
2005-12-28 11:27:47
47.   TheDictator
Is anyone is SoCal pumped about the Reggie Bush Bowl?
2005-12-28 11:28:45
48.   TheDictator
Sorry, the Reggie Bush Bowl is The SF 49ers vs. The Huston Texans. Whoever loses most likely gets the 1st pick in next years draft - aka Reggie Bush
2005-12-28 11:31:06
49.   Linkmeister
48 Why wouldn't Bush pull an Elway or an Eli Manning and refuse to sign with either of those teams? (N.B.: I was a 49ers fan all through the Montana/Young years.)
2005-12-28 11:32:46
50.   LAT
41. Before Laker/Clipper games local resturants and bars are packed. I agree, after the games most people leave but if there were more venues, more downtown and more public transporatation, I think people would stay.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2005-12-28 11:32:59
51.   Marty
46 Nice handle. Have you read "The Great American Novel" by any chance?
2005-12-28 11:34:00
52.   TheDictator
48 I give up on spelling today. My brain is still mush from grading finals a week ago.
2005-12-28 11:34:01
53.   blue22
48 - I believe it is statistically impossible for the 49ers to get the first pick now. They blew it by winning last weekend. If they lose against Houston, they still lose the tiebreaker. The Jets, Saints, and Packers also hold tiebreaking advantages over the 49ers and Texans in the event of a tie for last with 3 wins.

The 49ers are arguably the worst team in some time, and they could conceivably get the 5th pick in the draft. They can't even lose right.

2005-12-28 11:35:16
54.   LAT
40. Steve, I thought you were the guy yelling at Shawn Green. :-)
2005-12-28 11:35:38
55.   Steve
Joe Randa and Jim Tracy -- two great tastes that taste great together.
2005-12-28 11:36:53
56.   blue22
53 - If Houston wins, and Jets, Saints, and Packers all lose as well, the draft order most likely goes:

1. NO
2. GB
3. NYJ
4. HOU
5. SF

2005-12-28 11:37:50
57.   Marty
Staples is already a good place to go early and stay late and will be a great place once all of the construction is done. You can train there from anywhere but the west side. There are already plenty of places to eat/drink close by and there will be a lot more once the new development is done in a few years. They are going to build a light rail line out to Culver City/West L.A. starting next year I believe. If you can wait twenty years there may even be a subway to S.M. :)

In the next five years or so it should be easy to get to downtown without a car.

2005-12-28 11:38:57
58.   LAT
The 49ers are arguably the worst team in some time, and they could conceivably get the 5th pick in the draft. They can't even lose right.

Alas, brings me back to the good 'ol days of John Brody, Tommy Hart and Gene Washington. Now those were some dark 49er days.

Gene Washington=first professional sports figure I ever met. Always a die hard 49er fan becasue of it.

2005-12-28 11:39:57
59.   Penarol1916
38. Ask the homeowners in Wrigleyville how much they enjoy the Cubs fans lingering in bars after games. I'm also glad to see you don't mind labeling yourself a snob since making a smaller stadium would cause ticket prices to increase a lot and thus make them unaffordable to many people.

42. The thing is, I wasn't a fan of the Redskins, but still forced to watch them rather than an actual good game, it was the same thing over the last 5 years being forced to watch incredibly boring Bears games here in Chicago.
As for a clause forcing the owner to field a competitive team, that doesn't change the fact that the owner is still ripping off the populace, regardless of how competitive the team is.

2005-12-28 11:40:51
60.   Marty
I could never bring myself to root for any team in Frisco. I admired the 49ers but never liked them. Plus, Montana was from Notre Dame and I hated him.
2005-12-28 11:46:38
61.   LAT
Random off-topic comment.

Had two star sightings this weekend:
James Cann. Looking old but I think he is old. I was sitting at a table in a bar and he was at the next table--the guy could drop F bombs with the best of them but he was holding court and was pretty funny.

Angie Harmon. Let me just say I had a thing for her before and I still have it. Smokin' hot. She looks exactly as she does on TV. Sexy voice is the same too. Tried to be cool but I'm sure I looked too long and too often.

2005-12-28 11:48:07
62.   Penarol1916
61. I always disliked Angie Harmon on L&O, I was always more of a Jill Hennessey fan, althought now I don't care for her on that other show she has, maybe it was the short hair.
2005-12-28 11:49:09
63.   Linkmeister
More O/T:

Marty, did you see my book recommendation for you in the previous thread? Comment #101.

2005-12-28 11:49:52
64.   Marty
LAT, was Jason Sehorn there?
2005-12-28 11:52:45
65.   Marty
Linkmeister, yes I did, Thank you very much. I am going to pick it up. That is one I have not read. There are a couple histories of the Guadalcanal campaign that I've read. One that came out right after the war, whose name escapes me, has a picture that my family thinks shows my father. Hard to tell because soldiers on the Pacific Islands tend to start looking alike after a few weeks there.
2005-12-28 11:54:55
66.   Andrew Shimmin
I think I mostly liked the 49ers because of how good they were in Tecmo Bowl.
2005-12-28 11:57:37
67.   Eric L
59 I've only been to a handful of ML stadiums (Petco, Qualcomm, both versions of Anaheim, DS, and The BoB) so don't count me as an expert. I'm not sure that the small stadium thing always makes for better site lines.

Some of the sitelines at Petco are really horrible. You can't see the action down some of the lines if you are in the wrong seats. I have yet to encounter that at DS. I may be farther away, but at least I can still see the game.

The important question is whether or not a new stadium would be that much of an improvement over DS.

(an aside, while I have issues with Petco, it is an upgrade over Qualcomm).

2005-12-28 12:00:56
68.   dzzrtRatt
LA isn't starved for great football. Name another major urban area that has two NCAA teams that consistently deliver such entertaining and competitive football, inspiring passionate loyalties and passionate enmities. I'm a Cal fan, but I still get caught up in the UCLA/USC excitement.

The longer the NFL has been gone, the more it's clear that it's a mercenary league of physical freaks, chemical psychos and success that is almost purely random. Rozelle's "parity" means every season now has too many pretenders who luck out due to an easy schedule, but really aren't good teams. Yeah, every so often a team appears on the NFL scene that captures one's fancy--the Patriots now, the Cowboys of the 90s, the Niners before that. But the view is constantly being ruined by the nonsense surrounding it. Sure, the college game is equally corrupt, but LA's two "franchises" seem to stay above it.

We're lucky that the NFL was spirited out of town hogtied in the trunks of Frontiere and Davis' limousines. May it stay forever buried in the mudflats of San Francisco Bay and the Mississippi River.

2005-12-28 12:01:02
69.   LAT
Marty, there was a guy there but he was pretty short and didn't look like Sehorn but I only saw him the time he proposed to her on the Tonight Show. I thought it could be him but concluded it probably wasn't.
2005-12-28 12:02:19
70.   Telemachos
39 I currently work in Culver City and one of my co-workers commutes from Thousand Oaks (!).

48 I had the good fortune of getting into football while living in the Bay Area in the '80s.... so of course I'm ridiculously spoiled in terms of expectations for a team (and likewise incredibly disappointed in the Niners the last few years).

In terms of the Bush Bowl, I've heard that the tie-breakers are based on opponents' winning percentages, so if the Texans win Sunday it may all depend on what other teams win and lose that weekend. If the Texans win, I've heard the Saints have the inside track to the #1 pick.

2005-12-28 12:06:27
71.   blue22
70 - Unless there are some major swings in strength of schedule, I think 56 will be the order. Only the Jets have a realistic chance of winning this weekend, hosting the Bills. I guess Green Bay could sneak up and beat Seattle who will rest most of their starters. Favre will find a way to lose though.

As a Niner fan, it's depressing to think that after this awful year, capping it off by losing at home to the Texans, SF won't even get a pick inside the top-5.

2005-12-28 12:07:20
72.   dzzrtRatt
By the way, all of McCourt's PR people must've been sleeping off an egg nog overdose if they let him talk about using Chavez Ravine for an NFL franchise. It's no surprise he immediately backed down.

In the year 3005, LA's local politicos will still be insisting that the Memorial Coliseum is the only appropriate location for an NFL team, and will still be unable to explain why.

2005-12-28 12:10:37
73.   Kurt
The problem with discussing lingering at Staples is that building was supposed to be at the front end of downtown redevelopment, one of the anchors around which other stuff would spout. That growth is really just starting to happen.

The answer now and the answer five years from now may be very different.

2005-12-28 12:24:21
74.   DaveP
Anyone following the prospects in the Dominican Winter League?
Here are some final regular season stat:

Franquelis Osoria:
2-1 2.82 25K/4BB in 22ip

Yhency Brazoban (pitcher of year):
3-2 1.64ERA, .250 OBA, 22G, 14SV, 22.0 IP, 21H, 7R, 4ER, 6BB and 21K (8.59 K/9 and a 1.23WHIP)

Joel Guzman was tops with 33 RBI.

I recall reading previously that Aybar performed horribly and lost his starting job to an A ball prospect.

2005-12-28 12:56:14
75.   blue22
74 - Aybar didn't figure to make the club out of ST as is, but his performance in the Dominican League certainly isn't helping his cause.

He's probably better off playing everyday in the minors, but will he get that chance even in Vegas?

2005-12-28 12:59:59
76.   Berkeley Doug
61 and 62 - I always preferred Jamie (Carey Lowell aka Richard Gere's wife) on Law and Order. Although, the new assistant DA is also pretty hot.
2005-12-28 13:15:23
77.   Blu2
Carey Lowell is my favorite, too, but I think the new one is a skag.
2005-12-28 13:22:06
78.   Penarol1916
77. Carey Lowell was solid, she was my college roommates favorite, I always thought that the show started going downhill when they brought in Angie Harmon.
2005-12-28 13:27:18
79.   Midwest Blue
Sorry, guys. Mark me down as a fan of that hot Angie Harmon. But Elisabeth Rohm was the hottest!
2005-12-28 13:30:46
80.   Penarol1916
79. Rohm was hot, but not a very good actress, or maybe her character was supposed to be a wooden ice queen, or course I would have been more forgiving if I'd known all along that her character was a lesbian (one of the most bizarre lines ever by the way).
2005-12-28 13:31:25
81.   Marty
What, no love for Jill Hennessy? The woman with the 3-foot-long neck...
2005-12-28 13:31:57
82.   bhsportsguy
I also saw that Brazoban was the pitcher of the year in the Dominican League this year. I only hope that he gets some rest after the playoffs and that he will be fresh when Spring Training rolls around in about 7 weeks.
2005-12-28 13:35:04
83.   blue22
82 - But was he just blowing guys away, or is he working on an off speed pitch? I don't care how many guys he blows away with gas, big leaguers will continue to light him up until he gets something to keep them off balance.
2005-12-28 13:35:05
84.   Penarol1916
81. Did you not see my response in 62? She was my favorite.
2005-12-28 13:42:15
85.   King of the Hobos
83 Supposedly, according to guy on that lives there, he's using a lot of breaking stuff and it looks really good. The guy seems to be reliable (he knew about Antonio Perez's injury when it happened, not 2 weeks after when it was announced, and has good knowledge of the league)
2005-12-28 13:44:34
86.   Midwest Blue
85 Hope springs eternal.
2005-12-28 13:53:34
87.   blue22
Gagne, Braz, and Broxton is a pretty impressive trio of power arms out of the pen if so. Sanchez could make for nice tradebait if these 3 succeed. Osoria is a nice specialist to have (if his insane 3.3 G/F ratio comes close to holding). Schmoll and Kuo provide good depth.

Looks like LA has rebuilt their pen, with some parts to spare. Of course it's all predicated on a return to health of Gagne.

2005-12-28 14:10:41
88.   Jesse

Sanchez would make nice trade bait, but I wouldn't mind seeing either him or broxton get a shot at starting out of spring training.

2005-12-28 14:47:47
89.   Bob Timmermann
When it comes to the junior ADA character on "Law and Order" I would pick Richard Brooks over Elisabeth Rohm. I'd pick Stephen Hill over her too (obviously not a comparable character).

But wouldn't the Adam Schiff character have made a better manager for the Dodgers last year than Jim Tracy.

"So, you want to bunt with J.D. Drew? It will never work. Just have him swing away or just plead out the game."

2005-12-28 14:50:31
90.   Marty
I swear, sometimes I thought Adam Schiff's only line was "Cut a deal!"
2005-12-28 14:57:42
91.   bearlurker
Official Rankings (Junior DA):
1. Angie Harmon
2. Jill Hennessey

3. Carey Lowell
4. Richard Brooks

5. New one
6. Elisabeth Rohm

2005-12-28 15:11:17
92.   LAT
My ADA ranking:

1. Angie Harmon (too good looking to be convincing) (reminds me of Ali MaGraw who I think I had my very first crush on)

2. Cary Lowell (better looking as Bond girl)

3. Rohm (Not Jim)

4. Everyone else

2005-12-28 15:13:53
93.   LAT
90. Adam Schiff was great. If there was ever a job in Hollywood to have it was his. Just be grumpy, memorize a couple of lines and collect a fat check. I could do that if I was 20 years older.
2005-12-28 15:20:54
94.   jasonungar05
forgive me if this has been posted our discussed. It was posted on Dec 25 in the contra county times

"Colletti already has done enough to warrant consideration as one of baseball's smartest executives".

2005-12-28 15:21:30
95.   Marty
55 I've bookmarked a pirates blog ( just so I can see if/when the Pirates crowd turns on Tracy. It should be entertaining. Of course, I may be choking on Grady Little by then...
2005-12-28 15:24:59
96.   trainwreck
Even if the Texans beat the Niners the Saints and Packers have faced a weaker schedule so far, so there is still a chance Niners do not get the first pick if they lose. If Texans lose they for sure get the pick though. I need all of these teams to win so my Raiders can move up and get AJ Hawk.
2005-12-28 15:26:29
97.   trainwreck
My home newspaper. I should go to their main office and tell their sports writer he needs to stop using his jump to conclusions mat.
2005-12-28 15:47:03
98.   trainwreck
I am guessing the White Sox keep all their pitchers. Let McCarthy spot start in case of injury then have him takeover once Contreras leaves for free agency.
2005-12-28 15:58:18
99.   regfairfield
94 Wow. All it takes is spending a lot of money to become a smart executitive?
2005-12-28 15:58:59
100.   dagwich
Got my copy of "Best of Dodger Thoughts" today in the mail -- very impressive looking book! Well done, Jon.

Hey, just how long has Law & Order been around? I guess I've only seen it off and on over the past 3-4 years. I think I came in during the Elisabeth Rohm years. Isn't Jill Hennesay the "Coroner Babe" now (what coroner dresses in low cut tops like that?)? I forget the name of the show, that's just how we refer to it in the household. By the way, there are also the "Judge Babe", "President Babe" and "CSI Babe" shows. Just so that you don't think I'm a total pig, my wife is the one that started the "Babe" nomenclature.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2005-12-28 16:02:23
101.   Bob Timmermann
"Law and Order"'s first episode aired on September 13, 1990.

The Dodgers were off that day.

2005-12-28 16:04:59
102.   Jon Weisman
Law & Order is on track to surpass Gunsmoke as TV's longest running drama, and Dick Wolf really wants it to happen. Law & Order premiered in 1990 - this is its 16th season.
Gunsmoke ran from 1955-1975, or 20 seasons.
2005-12-28 16:05:58
103.   Jon Weisman
By the way, thanks, dagwich.
2005-12-28 16:06:46
104.   Jon Weisman
I believe it was Andy Warhol who said that everyone is guaranteed their guest appearance on Law & Order.
2005-12-28 16:09:33
105.   Marty
A friend of my parents was on a few early Law and Orders as a judge. He looks very judgey-like.
2005-12-28 16:13:32
106.   jasonungar05
[gretzky99] well that and not trading prospects I guess.

By these requirements, Depodesta was a great GM too.

2005-12-28 16:20:30
107.   Linkmeister
"very judgey-like."

Ooh! With the curled white wig and everything? ;)

2005-12-28 16:46:07
108.   Marty
Bald and very serious don't-mess-with-me-or-I'll-send-you-up-for-25-years-looking.
2005-12-28 16:48:18
109.   ElysianPark62
94--Surely Colletti CAN'T be a smarter GM than a Harvard grad.
2005-12-28 17:05:56
110.   TheDictator
59 I moved back to Ohio about a year ago, before that I spent the past three in Bourbonnais IL teaching at the school that hosts the Bears Camp. I still have the orange security shirt I wore on the sidelines! :-)

I agree watching the Bears is painful, especially when you are not even a Bears fan.

As for ripping off the populace, in Ohio, football is a way of life. Even people who hate football here recognize it as a way of life for this state.

I am personally willing to pay higher taxes to watch the Bengals in a new stadium. I know it is crazy. I know Mike Brown is ripping me off. But its Bengals' football!

I guess you could say the Bengals are to Cincy as the Bulls, not the Cubs, are to Chicago. The city takes pride in the team winning. And it bears the shame of their loses.

BTW, I was at the game a few years back, before I moved to Atlanta from Chicago, when Chad Krueter was punched in the head. It was absolutely surreal.

2005-12-28 17:07:27
111.   Eric Enders
The real question is, what was the last year Law & Order was actually watchable? Somewhere around 1995, maybe?

The pilot episode, though, is a rather astonishing piece of work (and completely unlike anything else in the series).

2005-12-28 17:09:21
112.   Bob Timmermann
"Law and Order" died when Jill Hennessey's character did.


And "Crossing Jordan" is a poor replacement.

2005-12-28 17:10:42
113.   TheDictator
59 I heard Dick Jaron is temporarily coaching the Lions. Memories . . .

At least he is in Detroit now.

2005-12-28 17:11:26
114.   dagwich
104 Good one there, Jon.
2005-12-28 17:18:18
115.   Jon Weisman
111 - For me, it was when "Ripped From the Headlines" became their reason for existence.
2005-12-28 17:25:52
116.   popup
I have not been to Dodger Stadium in 40 years but at least for me it remains one of my favorite ballparks. I am not sure what I would think of it today; some things are best left to memory. Dodger Stadium, Wrigley, Camden Yards and whatever they call the ballpark in San Francisco are the best places I have been to see a baseball game. I also like the ballpark here in Tacoma.

Stan from Tacoma

2005-12-28 17:36:16
117.   Bob Timmermann
In the ESPN baseball world, the fans are represented by just two separate and equally annoying groups: The Red Sox, who whine a lot and the Yankees, who talk too much. Does anyone want to hear their stories?
2005-12-28 17:55:10
118.   Linkmeister
Bob, you've now put me in the awkward position of modestly defending ESPN. Despite its nationwide reach, it's still geographically stuck in the midst of the NY/Boston axis. There's not another good team on the East Coast to talk about, and the rest of the country has those awful time zones to deal with.

In other words, their people are insular.

O/T, the preview of the Michigan/Nebraska game in my morning paper said Nebraska's running game was dismal. I nearly dropped my coffee. Tom Osborne's old team bad at running the football? What else do they DO?

2005-12-28 18:01:32
119.   Bob Timmermann
Nebraska throws the ball a LOT. A WHOLE LOT. June Jones-coached like a lot.
2005-12-28 18:05:43
120.   caseybarker
Bill Callahan's a moron.
2005-12-28 18:16:46
121.   Bob Timmermann
Mark my words:

Nebraska ends USC's winning streak next season in week 3.

Unless I'm wrong, in which case I'll deny everything!

2005-12-28 18:27:43
122.   trainwreck
Does anyone else love how UAB plays basketball. I love their style of play, it is like playing a bunch of annoying gnats with track star speed and endurance.
2005-12-28 18:45:10
123.   Vishal
[119] however much they throw, it can't be as much as texas tech, though
2005-12-28 18:49:41
124.   Vishal
[122] yes, i saw them in the tournament a year or two ago and was way impressed with their press.
2005-12-28 20:43:31
125.   Steve
123 -- Michael Lewis wrote about Texas Tech for the NYT magazine a few weeks ago.
2005-12-28 20:45:10
126.   Vishal
yeah, i read that. it read kinda like moneyball: college football edition.

it was good though. i think the texas tech-alabama game is going to be awesome. the crazy red raider offense against a really tough SEC defense. i think tech is gonna win, but it will be fun to watch.

2005-12-28 20:50:18
127.   dzzrtRatt
The ultimate L & O babe is Mariska Hargitay. But her show is too depressing.

The best L & O now is the one with Vincent D'Onofrio, who has created the most bizarre TV character since the cast of Green Acres.

2005-12-28 21:05:23
128.   Bob Timmermann
The Alamo Bowl is quite entertaining and has some very odd officiating too.
2005-12-28 21:20:41
129.   Bob Timmermann
I pity the official scorer who had to keep track of the last play of the Alamo Bowl.
2005-12-28 21:22:35
130.   Blu2
127 Mariska was gorgeous 15 years ago but she's starting to look 'dikey' now. Anybody watch 'Loat World'? Jennifer O'dell and Rachel Blakely will match anybody.
2005-12-28 21:26:40
131.   Blu2
127 Mariska was gorgeous 15 years ago but she's starting to look 'dikey' now. Anybody watch 'Lost World'? Jennifer O'dell and Rachel Blakely will match anybody.
2005-12-28 21:34:22
132.   natepurcell
holy crap lakers are apparently close to getting artest.
2005-12-28 22:11:18
133.   dodgerscool

Wow that's really good news, so Lakers can get Artest without giving up Odom. Lakers would love to have Artest, but i dont see the point of getting Rose. I'd rather have Croshere. I guess Lakers need to take Rose's bad contract in order for Raptors to get in the deal.

2005-12-28 22:35:49
134.   King of the Hobos
If the Post-Gazette is correct, Tracy will get to once again use Giovanni Carrara in the 8th inning. Considering Carrara's history away from Dodger Stadium, I feel bad for Pittsburgh. Although their interest in starting Eric Byrnes over Craig Wilson doesn't help soften the blow their fans will endure
2005-12-28 23:38:21
135.   King of the Hobos
The LA Times has a story for Thursday on the subject of this thread

2005-12-29 00:13:02
136.   Andrew Shimmin
From the piece referenced in 135-

" 'I am disappointed and disturbed by both the NFL and the Dodgers — but much more by the Dodgers,' said county Supervisor Zev Yaroslavsky, a member of the Coliseum Commission."

Now that's trouble. Zev Yaroslavsky is one bad dude. Just his name gives me chills. McCourt could well end up in a shallow grave up in the Angeles National Forest.

2005-12-29 00:26:43
137.   Uncle Miltie
nate- I wouldn't trust that site. It isn't being reported anywhere else (sounds kind of like the Hudson to the Dodgers for Jackson/Perez story). I also can't see the Lakers only having to give up George for Artest. The Pacers have said that they want players who will help them in the future. George is an expiring contract. If I were Indiana, I'd demand Bynum or a couple of draft picks. Still, Artest would be a great pickup for the Lakers.
2005-12-29 00:28:07
138.   Andrew Shimmin
Fun fact: Jim Croce's Bad, Bad, Leroy Brown was about Zev. Croce just couldn't come up with a rhyme for Yaroslavsky. Stagger Lee, too, which is really surprising considering it was written before his birth.
2005-12-29 02:07:33
139.   rageon
134 For some reason I've always been a fan of Gio. I'm not sure why. There's just something about a guy who always puts up a respectable ERA without ever actually appearing to pitch respectably.

So on one hand I'm glad I won't have to see him give up any leads late in the game. But I'll still miss him.

But then again, I'm still upset that Jeff Kubenka and Onan Masoaka didn't pan out.

2005-12-29 02:22:29
140.   dzzrtRatt
Howard Sunkin, who represented McCourt at the NFL meeting, has been around long enough to know what a third rail the Coliseum issue is for the LA political establishment, and how paranoid this community gets if they think someone has "broken ranks." McCourt's greed must've gotten the better of everyone's political acumen.

Which doesn't change the fact that this 'rally round the Coliseum' forced march is a suicide pact for LA. The NFL thinks the Coliseum is a ridiculous place to return to after two teams have bailed already, and is very unlikely to do so, even with all the fantastic promises being made about it.

2005-12-29 09:31:47
141.   blue22
137 - I don't see how that trade works without putting Odom in it, for salary cap purposes. They do mention "another Laker" going to Indiana, which could mean Odom.

If Odom and George go to Indy, Rose and Artest go to LA, and Croshere goes to Toronto (along with a minor player from LA like Slava), it passes the salary cap test.

Croshere and Artest for Odom and George works too. I'm not real high on Jalen Rose.

2005-12-29 10:11:17
142.   Daniel Zappala
It's entirely possible that McCourt owns the Dodgers because the Dodger Stadium site is attractive from a developer's standpoint. Whether the development is to complement the stadium or replace the stadium (with a new one built elsewhere), this could make McCourt very wealthy.
2005-12-29 10:13:31
143.   Gilgamesh
51 - I had not heard of it before your mention, but I am buying it now. What could be more interesting than a mix of baseball, communism, and sumerian symbology?
2005-12-29 11:43:16
144.   Linkmeister
Ah, Yaroslavsky. I remember him from 20 years ago when the company I worked for was fighting for a Conditional Use Permit renewal to keep running the business that had been there since 1954. The company won, but it wasn't fun.
2005-12-29 17:26:53
145.   spacebrother
I'm ususally a lurker, but this brought my dander up.

First off, I have never liked football. To me, it's like somone took everything negative in the American psyche and engineered it into a team sport. The biggest always have the edge. OK, the QB and recievers have to do a little thinking and need to be skilled athletes, and the coach is generally a quick-witted sort, but the rest of the bodies on the field are there seemingly just to run into each other.

Football attracts the worst sort of fan, in my experience. I used to videotape the USC marching band, so I had a ringside seat for every game during my college career. People would ask me why I wasn't cheering, throw beer and wrappers, and carry on like the worst sections of the pavilion seats. I don't think we need this sort of crowd milling about after a particualrly bad loss (or win for that matter.)

Maybe I just don't understand the subtleties of the sport, but I suppose it's always better than soccer.

Baseball allows time for contemplation and conversation in the spaces between the action--just like life. And just like in life, anyone can play, as long as they have the natural skills to compete.

Perhaps the best comparison between the two was made almost three decades ago by George Carlin, and he puts it far better than I can.

So I guess my vote is "no" on NFL in LA.

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