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On February 14, 2003, I began my multipart series on the 1967-73 Dodgers with the story, "Traumatized in '67" ...
For me, 1967-73 is the George Lazenby period of the Los Angeles Dodgers. They weren't as bad as they were innocuous.I'm sorry I can't even give you three full years to savor that piece, but I'm moving headlong into Part 2 of the series, covering 1968.The Dodgers missed the playoffs for seven consecutive years beginning in '67, their longest such streak in Los Angeles. I've never read much discussing why. The Dodgers are struggling in the current era, and the reasons are well chronicled. It's hard for me to believe that today's Dodgers, despite their lack of success, will ever become as forgotten as those 1967-73 Dodgers.
We pick up the storyline with the Dodgers coming off an eighth-place finish in 1967, traceable to the retirement of Sandy Koufax and the all-around funk that followed it: a sophomore slump by Don Sutton, mediocrity in the bullpen, and a decline in offensive production at six of eight spots in the lineup.
General manager Buzzie Bavasi responded in the 1967-68 offseason with something of a housecleaning, ridding himself of eight members of the '67 team, including some True Dodgers. He kicked things off in November by sending John Roseboro, Ron Perranoski and Bob Miller to Minnesota for some True Twins: Mudcat Grant and Zolio Versalles. Roseboro was 34 and winding down and Miller was an average reliever, but Perranoski was the leader of the bullpen, throwing 110 innings with an ERA+ of 127. Meanwhile, Grant, a 21-game winner in '65, was coming off the worst season of his career at age 30 (73 ERA+). The 27-year-old Versalles was acquired to solve the shortstop black hole created by the trade of Maury Wills a year earlier (imagine Dave Ross and Brent Mayne replacing Paul Lo Duca) – but considering that Versalles had batted .200 (52 OPS+) in 1967 with 30 errors, a "What was Bavasi thinking?" might certainly be in order. Versalles looked worse than Roseboro, Grant worse than Perranoski. Wrote Glenn Stout in his comprehensive history, The Dodgers: "It would have been an interesting trade two years eariler. Now it was just a swap of fading veterans."
At a minimum, Versalles did make Dodger shortstop Gene (.468 OPS, 41 OPS+) Michael expendable, so he was sold to the Yankees. Fellow shortstop Dick Schofield, soon to be 33, was released – no great loss in and of itself, though he was better looking offensively and defensively at this point in his career than Versalles.
But in the other big move of November, the Dodgers traded outfielder Lou Johnson, their second-best hitter in 1967, to the Cubs for infielder Paul Popovich, a 27-year-old infielder with 35 career hits, and 20-year-old outfield prospect Jim Williams. Hard to justify in the short term, this trade would have to be seen as a sign of a rebuilding attempt. The 33-year-old Johnson had been a late bloomer himself, with only 47 major league hits before his 30th birthday, and could reasonably have been expected to be headed for a decline despite posting perhaps the best year of his career.
Bavasi then stood pat until pitchers and catchers were reporting for Spring Training, before making two more moves. Looking for a catcher to play in front of 26-year-old Jeff Torborg, the Dodgers picked up Tom Haller (along with minor leaguer Frank Kasheta) from none other than the rival San Francisco Giants, in exchange for Ron Hunt and Nate Oliver. Haller, 30, was one of the top offensive catchers in baseball, with six consecutive seasons of above-average OPS. Oliver was no loss, but Hunt, the future hit-by-pitch king, had been a rare bright spot in the Dodger lineup with a 106 OPS+ in 1967. The trade made sense, but reads like another change in strategy for the Dodgers. Why acquire Versalles if you were going to get rid of Johnson? Why get rid of Johnson if you were going to get Haller?
Topping things off, Los Angeles purchased Rocky Colavito from the Chicago White Sox in 1968. Colavito hit 20 or more home runs from 1956-66, peaking with 45 in 1961. In 1967, however, Colavito hit eight homers in 123 games with Cleveland and Chicago. It was a gamble that an aging player had one more good season left – though admittedly, at no cost in personnel.
Summarizing the transition from 1967 to 1968 ...
The 1967 Los Angeles Dodgers
73-89, eighth place, 28.5 games out
Regular lineup (with OPS and OPS+):
C Johnny Roseboro (.722, 115)
1B Wes Parker (.704, 110)
2B Ron Hunt (.689, 106)
3B Jim Lefebvre (.688, 104)
SS Gene Michael (.470, 41)
OF Willie Davis (.662, 96)
OF Al Ferrara (.812, 139)
OF Ron Fairly (.616, 83)
Starting rotation (with W-L, ERA and ERA+)
P Claude Osteen (17-17, 3.22, 97)
P Don Drysdale (13-16, 2.74, 113)
P Don Sutton (11-15, 3.95, 79)
P Bill Singer (12-8, 2.64, 118)
The 1968 Los Angeles Dodgers
76-86, tied for seventh place, 21 games out
Regular lineup (with OPS and OPS+):
C Tom Haller (.733, 128)
1B Wes Parker (.626, 96)
2B Paul Popovich (.550, 72)
3B Bob Bailey (.656, 104)
SS Zolio Versalles (.510, 59)
OF Willie Davis (.635, 97)
OF Ron Fairly (.600, 88)
OF Len Gabrielson (.765, 137)
Starting rotation (with W-L, ERA and ERA+)
P Claude Osteen (12-18, 3.09, 90)
P Bill Singer (13-17, 2.88, 96)
P Don Drysdale (14-12, 2.15, 129)
P Don Sutton (11-15, 2.60, 107)
So how'd it go? In the book True Blue, Steve Delsohn provides the short version:
"The swift decline continued in 1968," Delsohn writes. "Young starting pitcher Bill Singer ... recalls a Dodger team that batted just .230, scored a measly 2.9 runs per game, and had a guy named Al Ferrara batting fourth on opening day."
In The Dodgers, Stout implies that as Opening Day approached, there was an additional omen of a season off its axis:
Just before the start of the 1968 season, the Dodgers made another monumental mistake. Civil rights leader Martin Luther King was assasinated on April 4, and America erupted. Whille the rest of baseball suspended operations, the Dodgers went ahead and played an exhibition game at Dodger Stadium against Cleveland. And when the rest of baseball pushed back Opening Day until after King's funeral on April 9, the Dodgers planned to play, even though their opponents, the Philadelphia Phillies, announced they would rather forfeit than participate. Hollywood even postponed the Academy Awards. But the Dodgers, the team that signed Jackie Robinson, insisted on playing their game.
Everything Bavasi said about the situation made him sound insensitive, and the organization appeared totally out of touch. "I talked to Willie Davis and (coach) Jim Gilliam," said Bavasi of the team's two high-profile African Americans. "I told them the game would be played but they would not have to participate. ..."
Ultimately, the Dodgers opened the season on April 10 - and were shutout in their first two games and held to one run in their first 43 innings. Remarkably, however, they split their first six games and were 13-13 after 26, sitting four games out of the National League lead. Double the games played, and the Dodgers were 26-26 after 52, 3 1/2 games out of first. A seven-game winning streak, which included Don Drysdale's mesmerizing sixth consecutive shutout (lowering his season ERA to 1.21) put the Dodgers alone in second place on June 9, two games behind St. Louis.
Unfortunately for Los Angeles, that would be the peak. Drysdale's scoreless streak became history, in the good and bad sense, and the Dodgers lost 32 of their next 45 games - capped by a 5-20 tailspin to start the month of July - to fall into a tie for last place, 22 1/2 games behind the front-running Cardinals.
During the slide, it should be said, there were two key off-field events. First, as Stout and Delsohn recall, the San Diego expansion franchise enticed Bavasi with a 30-percent ownership stake, and he left the Dodgers after three decades with the team to become Padre president.
Second, in a a turnaround that might resonate with Dodger fans today, the Dodgers unexpectedly pulled together perhaps the single best amateur draft baseball had ever seen - or would ever see. Stout provides the background:
The farm system, although under the control of player development director Al Campanis and Fresco Thompson, had not provided a first-rate position player in years. Most Dodger prospects semmed to follow an familiar pattern: early success, like that enjoyed by Tommy Davis and Jim Lefebvre, followed by a long slow decline. Dodger minor leaguers, many of whom had been considered absolute blue chippers when first signed, seemed to peak early, and time and time again the club rushed players to the majors a year before they were ready.
The system did a good job of identifying talent but was not adept at predicting future performance. Like the Yankees a few years earlier, the Dodgers signed prospects who looked like ballplayers instead of players who were the real thing. Although the Dodgers were the first team to put into place the now-standard numeric grading system that rates skills on a scale from 20 to 80, they also looked for what they called "the good face" - a ballplayer who looked the way they expected a ballplayer to look. The result was a good-looking team, but not a whole lot of talent.
Fresco Thompson took over for Bavasi, although many thought he was just a stopgap hire to prevent him from jumping to Montreal. In the 1968 free agent draft held a few weeks later, the Dodgers hit the jackpot. Either Bavasi had been the problem or it was just time for the Dodgers to get lucky. After all, if Drysdale could hit a batter with the bases loaded and still pitch a shutout, anything was possible. Among the players the Dodgers selected were unknown kids named Bobby Valentine, Steve Garvey, Bill Buckner, Ron Cey, Tom Paciorek, Joe Ferguson, and Doyle Alexander. Lee Lacy would be selected the following February. Few teams have ever had a more productive draft: none of these players would stay unknown for long, for these "good faces" also had some skills.
Of course, the benefits of the draft would not help the Dodgers in '68. An eight-game losing streak in August ended any hope of recovery and put the Dodgers in their deepest hole, 54-74 and 27 games behind St. Louis. Thus buried, Los Angeles rallied for an 18-9 September to finish tied for seventh place at 76-86, a mere 21 games behind the Cards, four games ahead of the last-place Houston Astros.
What went right, and what went wrong? Well, there was Drysdale and his legendary streak, of course. But Drysdale was something of a key figure in the midseason slump. His ERA in July was 3.83, worse than the overall NL average that year of 3.43. (It's interesting to note that Drysdale only made 29 career appearances after his scoreless inning streak ended.)
Unless they were allowing a lot of inherited runners to score, the relievers were rather exceptional, even by late-'60s standards, posting a 2.14 ERA. Grant surprised the naysayers with an ERA of 2.09, albeit in a career-low 94 2/3 innings. In addition, Sutton rebounded from a disappointing 1967 to pitch more than 200 innings with a 2.60 ERA, aided by a 5-1, 1.24 ERA September. However, the rest of the Dodger starting rotation was below average.
On offense, Haller (128 OPS+) earned All-Star recognition at catcher with his .285 batting average. But the Dodgers were led in home runs by part-time outfielder Len Gabrielson, who hit all of 10. While familiar names like Wes Parker and Willie Davis held their own, Ron Fairly had his second consecutive disappointing season, and Versalles (59 OPS+, 28 errors) was a disaster at shortstop. Colavito played in 40 games, hit three homers, and was released in July. On the whole, it wasn't an old team, a young team, a great team or a terrible team. It was a fairly undistinguished group.
Good news was just around the corner for the Dodgers, if for no other reason than with expansion and the introduction of divisional play, there would be only five teams to beat to reach the postseason. But with the exception of 58 1/3 scoreless innings of glory, the post-Koufax doldrums continued for the '68 Dodgers.
I'm not sure which one it was, but one year around then you couldn't open a pack of baseball cards without getting a Nate Oliver. I must have had a hundred of them.
Stan from Tacoma
LOL-That's scary.
I think the reason so many fans stuck with the Dodgers through those years can be summed up in two words .... Vin Scully.
Vin was the constant, the one true Dodger. He never had a slump. He never complained. He always took the high road, even if the team was scuffling down the low side of the highway.
I love the Dodgers because of Vin Scully. God bless Vin Scully.
MB
Was that the Gene Michael that built the Buster Olney Yankee Dynasty?
The Doyle Alexander that caused the Braves to win the NL East in 2005, was drafted in 1968??
and (somebody has to do this):
That's the Bill SiNGer whose firiNG was due to thiNGs people heard him sayiNG about....ohhh, I am blockiNG the name, does anybody know who I'm thinkiNG of...???
dodgersims.blogspot.com
vr, Xei
And the same Doyle Alexander.
And the same Bill Singer.
I think you have the spelling wrong though Bob, I'm pretty sure it has to be spelled "SiNGer" now.
http://www.dailynews.com/sports/ci_3441474
Also, Plaschke, for once in his life, is worth reading. Mostly because it's 60% new Gagne quotes, and he really doesn't try to add his own opinion
After all, if Drysdale could hit a batter with the bases loaded and still pitch a shutout, anything was possible.
What happened?
May 31, 1968: Don Drysdale's shutout streak apparently ends when Dick Dietz is hit by a pitch with the bases loaded and no outs in the 9th inning, but umpire Harry Wendelstedt rules Dietz did not try to avoid the pitch. Coach Herman Franks argues the call so long he is tossed by Wendelstedt. Dietz then pops out, and the next two batters make out. Los Angeles wins, 3–0, and Drysdale's 5th straight shutout ties the major-league record set in 1904 by Doc White.
Once upon a time that would get you ejected from the stadium.
OH NO HE DIDNTTTTT!
A couple of other things. One is that in Roger Kahn's The Boys of Summer (a great book, yes, and far better than Kahn's later stuff, where he can't seem to avoid making himself the story), he says that Walter O'Malley had told Buzzie Bavasi to get out to make room for Peter O'Malley, and was then offended when Buzzie left early for the San Diego job. Thompson then took over, but was dying of cancer. Then Al Campanis moved up, but he never got the GM title that Bavasi had.
Also, a question: is it fair to rank Bavasi's trades with those numbers? Were he and other GMs using those figures at the time?
And as to Drysdale hitting Deitz with the pitch, I read later that for the next six years or so, every year, when the teams rated umpires, the Giants ranked Harry Wendelstedt the worst in the league--and he was then probably only second to Doug Harvey in the NL among umpires. Better still, does anybody remember that when Orel Hershiser broke Drysdale's record, he kept his streak alive only because Paul Runge called a double play on interference, negating a run scoring? Eerie parallel.
He didn't want the Padres to look like a Dodger farm team and he also didn't want to make the Padres good.
In 1969 the Dodgers only televised games from San Francisco and a very occasional road game from somewhere else. But they added San Diego to their TV package, which ticked off the Padres since there was still a lot of crossover it the TV market and the fan base.
http://tinyurl.com/9c3nc
Plus, more evidence that Delaware exists.
Stan from Tacoma by way of Wilmington, Delaware
Also, as part of the expansion draft, he was ready to take Bill Russell, and reliever Jim Brewer from the Dodgers. But ailing Fresco Thompson told him that the two had mistakenly been unprotected and asked him not to. As a favor, he took Al Ferrara (bad ankle) and Zoilo Versailles (bad back).
Drysdale usually matched up with the opponents ace. In his shutout streak, he beat Ferguson Jenkins, and Bob Gibson.
Stan from Tacoma
Some very interesting numbers.
1. Beltre bounceback with a EQSlug = 500. For players 27 years old he ranks number 6 in vorp.
2. Projecting good years from Kent(41), Furcal(33), Drew(33), Mueller(20)
3. Projecting bad years from Nomar(14.4), Lofton(8), Cruz(13.5)
4. Projecting a good season from Choi if he gets the at bats(ha ha)
5. Dionar comes in at 10.4 which given his position and age is acceptable however Martin projects to be the better player right now with a 12.9. To put that in perspective Brian McCann the 1st year catcher for the Braves projects to a 21. Werth looks to have a decent bounce back at 17.
Surprises:
Our D Young comes in at 17.9 with solid power but lacking OBP.
Joel Guzman would post a better VORP then Nomar at 16.3
Travis Denker at 20 makes a surprise visit and actually projects a positive Vorp of 1.8.
Lname Fname Team Vorp
Webb Brandon ARI 38.4
ValverdeJose ARI 11.3
Halsey Brad ARI 10.9
Vargas Claudio ARI 10.3
Medders Brandon ARI 8.0
Owings Micah ARI 6.8
GonzalezEdgar ARI 6.4
HernandezOrlandoARI 5.7
VizcainoLuis ARI 5.0
Mock Garrett ARI 4.9
Batista Miguel ARI 3.5
Bruney Brian ARI 3.4
Lyon Brandon ARI 2.9
Aquino Greg ARI 2.6
GonzalezEnrique ARI 0.9
Nippert Dustin ARI 0.9
ARI Total 121.9
Francis Jeff COL 18.5
Kim Byung COL 13.7
Fuentes Brian COL 11.3
JenningsJason COL 10.3
Cook Aaron COL 6.5
Dejean Mike COL 5.3
Yabu Keichi COL 4.8
Acevedo Jose COL 4.7
Kim Sun-Woo COL 4.5
King Ray COL 3.9
Cortes David COL 3.5
Dohmann Scott COL 3.3
Day Zach COL 2.6
Tsao COL 2.1
COL Total 95.0
Penny Brad LAN 27.8
Gagne Eric LAN 25.1
Lowe Derek LAN 21.2
Perez Odalis LAN 18.8
BillingsleyChad LAN 14.4
Seo Jae LAN 14.3
Tomko Brett LAN 11.6
Baez Danny LAN 8.4
Osoria Franq LAN 5.7
Broxton Jon LAN 5.3
Houlton D.J. LAN 3.8
HamulackTim LAN 3.7
Wunsch Kelly LAN 3.7
Kuo LAN 2.2
BrazobanYhency LAN 1.8
LAN Total 167.8
Peavy Jake SDN 52.9
Young Chris SDN 14.5
LinebrinkScott SDN 11.5
CarrilloCesar SDN 9.0
Hoffman Trevor SDN 7.9
WilliamsWoody SDN 7.1
StaufferTim SDN 5.7
Estes Shawn SDN 5.3
Hammond Chris SDN 2.7
Hensley Clay SDN 2.4
Baker Brad SDN 2.1
Cassidy Scott SDN 1.3
Meaux Ryan SDN 1.3
Park Chan_Ho SDN -0.7
BrazeltonDewon SDN -2.6
SDN Total 120.4
Schmidt Jason SFN 37.4
Lowry Noah SFN 23.4
Morris Matt SFN 21.8
Cain Matt SFN 14.6
Hawkins Latroy SFN 7.5
Wright Jamey SFN 7.2
Eyre Scott SFN 5.6
Walker Tyler SFN 5.6
Worrell Tim SFN 3.8
Accardo Jeremy SFN 3.6
Kline Steve SFN 3.3
Benitez Armando SFN 3.2
Munter Scott SFN 2.6
HennesseyBrad SFN 1.6
SFN Total 141.2
Grand Total 646.3
Bonds pecota is not added to the giants, is there a reason why?
Pat Gillick traded CF-Jason Michaels to the Indians, for RP-Arthur Rhodes.
Hmmm....Lemme think. Can I trade a starting everyday player, for a middle reliever... whom?
I guess Gillick saw something no else did. What he saw, I'm not sure.
Looks like a steal for the Tribe, especially considering each player's salary/effectiveness
JMike is really not good enough to be a starter though, I guess most of MLB has figured that out finally.
Since when has Jason Michaels been an everyday starting player in the major leagues?
Still a lousy return for him but at least let's get the facts straight.
FYI-Shane Victorina has a higher projected Vorp then Lofton and Michaels. For a team with no depth in the OF last year, Depo really blew it by not buying him back after he didn't make the Phillie team last spring.
Pecota expects Bonds to post the highest VORP in the NL other then Pujols at 85.1 with 642 plate appearances. I'd bet the under on that with my life.
Jason Michaels 2005
ABs- 289
BA- .304
OBP- .399
SLG- .415
I suppose you could argue he should SLG more playing in Philly, but that still doesnt explain why Pecota thinks Lofton/Victorino will do more VORP wise....
oh, you meant take the under on Bonds.
52 - Neither Victorino or JMike are upgrades at all, but one of them could have added to the all-Jason bench.
http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/individual_stats_player.jsp?c_id=phi&playerID=346859
Maybe he's the "Choi" of the Phillies.
Didn't recall Ross,Repko,Feng,Edwards doing the damage that Victorino did last year in a real league not the hit crazy PCL. He's only 25 and I guess BP expects the power he showed last year to be real since they project a 450 Slug% which for a CF is a sweet deal. He also projects higher then the CF they traded for, Mr. Rowand.
Cody Ross was the better prospect at the time.
In the Int'll league at age 22, Cody Ross put up .287/.333/.515
Thats really not that far off from what Victorino did this past year in the Int'll league, at age 24.
Since Cody Ross didnt make it, and he had as good if not more impressive numbers as a prospect/age/league ratio, I'm surprised Pecota is so generous with Victorino.
I dont think the Dodgers miss Victorino at all. He'd be behind Guzman, Ruggiano, Matt Kemp, and maybe Andre Ethier on the OF minor league talent depth chart.
DodgerSims.Blogspot.com
vr, Xei
Or is your programming better? I know most video games will at least have some random injury situations arise that cant be forecast.
Shane Victorino has not been cut by anyone ever. He was a rule 5 pick by the Padres who actually made the ML team in 2003 even though he had never played above AA. During the year they needed the roster spot and had to offer him back to LA and Evans accepted. He was left unprotected by Depodesta in 2005 and was picked by the Phillies in the Rule 5 of 2005 and did not make the team out of SP and was offered back to the Dodgers and Depodesta declined. He went on to be the International League player of the year.
His Pecota comps are Jose Cardenal, Juan Beniquez, Jim Piersall. If you don't think we could use a 24 year old AAA center fielder who was player of the year then I guess you have a lot more confidence in Ledee/Werth/Lofton then I do.
Except Ross peaked at 22 and has been in decline ever since. Picking him up from Detroit was a good gamble in 2004 but evidently his injury has kept him from reaching the potential he showed in 2002. If I'd had a choice in April/2005 between Cody Ross and Victorino I'd have taken Victorino simply because he's a CF and the only CF in our system at the time was Milton. You could simply argue that letting Erickson fill a spot on the 40 man roster instead of accepting Victorino back was the biggest mistake of Depo's tenure. Would it have changed the outcome of last season, of course not but to say it wasn't a mistake is wrong. The team did not have a legitimate AAA CF at the time he was offered back to us.
Given that Drew and Bradley are fairly athletic left-handed players who can play centerfield, it's hard to say DePo totally undervalues them.
Dodger outfielders in the organization last April included:
1) Drew
2) Bradley
3) Werth
4) Ledee
5) Repko
6) Grabowski
7) Edwards
8) Chen
9) C. Ross
(I'm ignoring Valentin and A. Perez, because they were really emergency outfielders)
Victorino OPSed .613 in 200 AB in Las Vegas in 2004. Where should DePo have ranked Victorino on the above list? Maybe ahead of Edwards, Grabowski and Chen as far as the future was concerned. But as far as 2005 was concerned, I'm not sure Victorino wouldn't rightfully have been considered No. 10.
The Padres didn't jettison Victorino because of roster pressure. They determined that he wasn't worth keeping. Poor routes in the OF, inept as a leadoff man, in way over his head. They took a flyer on him and it didn't work out. He was a bad player on a team that was en route to 98 defeats, worst in the NL.
70 -- Depo admitted that the Roberts trade was a bad one. Didn't specify whether it was bad to trade him or that he could've obtained more value in return. A few months later, Theo Epstein got a lot more for DR than Depo did.
Namely, the infatuation with Grabowski. Tracy should've hired a hit man to take care of that no-hit man.
I'm not attacking Depo, simply saying not spending 25,000 to get back Victorino was not one of his better moves.
As far as Victorino and the Padres, yes he sucked as do most Rule 5 players who did not get enough development time before they are rudely thrust into the major leagues. That is why it is a rarity when a positional rule 5 actually ever makes a difference the year they are chosen.
actually, justin ruggianno, another 23 yr old CFer, OPSed 950 for the suns last year.
But you were making statements like "Depo really blew it " and "You could simply argue that letting Erickson fill a spot on the 40 man roster instead of accepting Victorino back was the biggest mistake of Depo's tenure" and "Depo totally undervalued speedy left hand hitting center fielders during his tenure here".
We're responding to those statements, which were more intense than the "not one of his better moves" of 75.
Ah, but 'twas a dull day here until the Shane Victorino debate began - so thanks :)
You would think the lack of offense would make things unbearable, but Vinny kept the emphasis on strong pitching. I remember listening to that game in 1968 when Drysdale hit Dick Dietz with the bases loaded and still got the shutout! But I couldn't understand how no one could hit more than 10 HR's that year.
Of course, 1968 was a BIG pitching year...besides Drysdale's scoreless steak, Denny McClain won 31 games, & Bob Gibson had a phenomenal 1.12 ERA!
Actually, I spent most of 1968 watching Cey, Russell, Lacy, & Paciorek play 'A' ball in Bakersfield. Man, that was a big piece of my childhood, watching Rau, Yeager, & others work their way through the system.
I also remember the 'revolving door' at 3rd base which included the likes of Bill Sudakis & Billy Grabarkewitz, who was a write-in all-star in 1969. I remember the 31 game hitting steak of Willie Davis, and Jim Brewer coming in from the pen a dozen or so times a year to face Willie McCovey with his screwball.
Forgive me for ramblin', but it brings back a lot of good memories of bad years leading up to the 1974 World Series team.
In other PTBNL news, the Yankees are due to give us one by Sunday. Or we could get cash. Or we already received cash and I missed it
Wow.
cf- grady sizemore
lf- jason michaels
ss- jhonny peralta
DH- travis hafner
C- Victor Martinez
RF- Austin Kearns
3b- andy marte
1b- ben broussard
2b- ronnie belliard
thats a pretty dynamite lineup. the only hole is 1b, but that could be fixable.
One great triva question about Paul Popovich was the fact that he played on Jerry West's West Virginia Team that went to the finals.
What is often forgotten on those late 60's team was the pitching of Claude Osteen. Although he was a 500 pitcher most of the time, his ability to eat innings was amazing.
Speaking of Tom Haller I remember a game, Bob should be able to call it up, where the Dodgers were down by quite a bit to the Montreal Expos. Believe the score was like 7-0, Expos in the 6th or 7th inning. We left early an unusal experience for us, and on the way home heard the Dodgers tie it on Haller's hommer. They eventually won and I alwasy felt cheated that we didn't stay! One of the few highlights in those years.
http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B07220LAN1970.htm
Dodgers 12, Expos 10
If you remember the Random Dodger Callback for 1899 (you mean you don't?), the Dodgers rallied from 10-3 down in the 7th and came back to win 11-10 with seven in the 8th and a run in the 10th.
Of course they were playing the Cleveland Spiders who were 20-134 that year.
Was nice to see the Bryan twins win the Australian Open Men's Double Title. They grew up and live in the city I live in and I see them once in a while hitting with the girlfriends over at Spanish Hills CC. I did play in an Open doubles tournament against one of them many years ago (Mike Bryan), he was suppose to play with his brother Bob, but Bob had to withdraw. I thought, ok maybe now we have a chance. Problem was his replacment was the Divsion III Natl Champion. We got smoked 6-2,6-1, but I did manage to hold my serve three out of four games. Of course Mike Bryan was only 13 or 14 years old at the time. You could tell he was something special.
vr, Xei
Top 5 Projected OPS by PECOTA:
J.D. Drew .930
Hee Seop Choi .854
Jeff Kent .822
Jayson Werth .805
Jose Cruz Jr. .802
All 5 of those players are DePodesta acquisitions. The highest projection for a Ned Colletti signing is Bill Mueller at .794. It will be interesting to see how this season plays out.
That game was on May 18, 1950 at Ebbets Field. The Dodgers trailed the Cardinals 8-0 after 7. They scored 4 in the eighth and 5 in the ninth. Glaviano made four errors in the game, THREE of them in the ninth inning, the final one allowing the winning runs to score.
A guy in the 19th century and Bob Brenly in 1986 made FOUR errors in one inning at third base to set the major league record.
Furcal has the 2nd highest VORP on the team, did you just use OPS to cherry pick your Ned comment or do you really think an OPS of 800 for Werth/Cruz as corner outfielders is better then the 33 VORP of the SS Furcal(highest in the NL) or better then the 20 Vorp for Mueller(7th best in the NL for 3b)?
Stan from Tacoma
Thank you for pointing out the unfair comparison on the Depo/Ned players made in post 97.
Popup,
I share your skepticism over Pecota. Rife with flagrant misses in years past. VORP isn't the greatest, either.
As with any projection system it will have some hits and some misses. I've used both system for years and I think the HQ staff does a better job on the hitters and Pecota does a better job on the pitching. HQ will manually massage the numbers that the program spits out but I believe BP leaves the Pecota projections alone. That could only explain how Bonds has such a silly projection.
The idea that this old man with his bad knee's will get 642 at bats seems like a fantasy. He hasn't had that many at bats since 2001 when he was 37 and healthy. Add in that they only project a 4% attrition rate to him is just more problematic. They are not accounting for the 30 pounds he supposedly lost this year. I know he has no comps and that is what the program spit out but please don't bet your roto team on that projection. Or do so if your in one of my leagues.
OT: Now on C-Span, Thomas LaSorda (the DaimlerChrysler one, not ours).
Tomorrow (at 1pm and 7pm) the Frenchman who wrote American Vertigo is going to chat with Bill Kristol, moderated by Francis Fukuyama. So. That's something to look forward to.
Jon Weisman: Yes, it is.
BL: Why is it called that.
JW: It has my thoughts about the Dodgers
BL: But what sort of thoughts?
JW: Anything. How the team does.
BL: What about "Dodgers"?
JW: That's the name of the team.
BL: It is?
JW: Yes
BL: Since when?
JW: I don't know, the 1890s?
BL: When you wrote this, did you use a pen or a computer?
JW: I used a computer.
BL: What kind of computer?
JW: A Mac.
BL: Jon Weisman, thank you for joining us here on C-SPAN
JW: Mostly at home.
BL: Where in your home?
JW: In my living room.
BL: Is it a nice living room?
JW: It has a Nerf basketball hoop.
BL: Tell me about Nerf
It sounds very much like.
"Who are these Stooges you speak of?"
"They're an old comedy team."
"I want to know everything about them. You will show me the Stooges?"
"I will show you the Stooges."
Furcal of course will be the highest bc he's the best SS in the NL.
Can someone run the pythagoreum theory W/L thing off the Pecota or ZIPS projections?
However, we won, and more than that, we got CSPAN3 too. And the local programmers won, because they got their sixth channel on which to put drivel nobody watches.
Werth and Cruz have not been bastions of health themselves. I'd be dissapointed if they only posted the Pecota OPS projection of 802/805. I'm expecting a lot more from Cruz then that this year. I think a line of 260/370/470 is a realistic goal for Cruz. Werth is such a ? mark with his continuing wrist problems I wouldn't even venture a guess as to what he could accomplish.
Werth actually batted 'smarter' at the plate last year. He was more patient and put the ball in play more often. The problem was that he had no power behind the balls he hit, bc of the wrist. If the wrist never heals, then yeah I dont think he'll amount to much.
I think Tydus Meadows is another guy Pecota or Zips loves, and if he's not on the 40man another team may pick him up and give him a shot.
I've been thinking: every major league (or maybe even each team?) needs to have one clip, some league- or franchise-defining highlight, that is permalinked from their homepage. This could change on maybe a yearly basis, as ideally teams write new chapters in their histories every year. It just seems to me that if someone says LA Dodgers, for example, the Gibson HR should not be too hard to find on their site, and so on. They could even make one of those MLB.com style contests out of this, "Vote on your team's Ultimate Highlight!"
Some possibilities from 2005-06 so far: AJP and the third strike that wasn't, the Ovechkin goal, Kobe's 81, perhaps the non-interception from Steelers/Colts. Are there any other possible "all-time" moments from the past year that I've missed?
Really if you compare Werth's 2004 and 2005, there's only one big difference. In 2004 he hit 16HR's. In 2005 he only hit 7.
He's increased his walk rate (which is good). I think if he keeps that same patience, and gets his power back, he'll be the .850+ OPS OF'er that he has the potential to be.
"Fans have flooded local sports talk radio stations all week with rallying cries against trading Crisp, who was considered by many to be a key part of the Indians' young core.
Shapiro certainly recognized the 26-year-old Crisp's upside, but in discussing the player with reporters earlier in the day, before the deals were consummated, Shapiro also outlined a couple of Crisp's question marks.
"The question and the unknown on him is going to be how much more power he's got," Shapiro said. "That's an unknown. ... Last year, he was very bad against left-handed pitching. Very bad."
This part really struck me as highlighting the differences in a smaller media market. Can anyone imagine what would happen if DePo came up and said "Paul LoDuca has been very bad after the break. Very bad." ? How about "Adrian Beltre had very bad plate discipline before 2004. Very bad," or "Jim Tracy has been very bad at filling out the lineup card. Very Bad."
How about making those comments before the deals to send them away or the decisions to let them leave were even finalized?
No one knows who Q Ross is but he's the best defensive player in town. The only slumps the Clippers have had this year is when their best defensive player has been out with back spasms. Just ask Carmelo Anthony who until Friday was the hottest offensive player in basketball not named Kobe.
http://tinyurl.com/bc8gc
Colletti was supposedly on TJ Simers' Sunday morning show today (I missed it unfortunately). He said he had "one major and one minor" move he is still working on, but refused to discuss. And he's working on extending Kent a year
Anyone catch the interview? I ask mostly because my source is rather...terrible. Simers does have a show on XTRA Sports (which I was unaware of), so that part is true
this chick is great..not drinking the Finley whine up in Napa
Only if I had to listen to T.J. Simers' radio show.
God love you for expecting a lot more from Jose Cruz Jr.
He'll save the Dodgers money on the clubhouse spread -- just open a can of Alpo for him.
Cruz has been teasting scouts and coaches for years with his "five tool" potential, but he's become a baseball vagabond for a very good reason. He's very streaky. The Diamondbacks thought he'd rather be sleeping than playing baseball.
Pitchers figured out several years ago that if you bounce a curveball, Jose will swing at it.
Maybe he'll learn how to adjust someday, he's not a fossil...but goodness, he can be a frustrating player....Maybe laid-back LA will suit him. I wish him a healthier back and career year in 2006 but would count on neither.
hmmm, so one major deal and one minor deal.... I wont even try and guess the minor deal.
but for the major deal, would anyone do an odalis for kearns deal?
And Piazza is not on his way back.
I wouldn't be surprised if ned has tomko in the bullpen as the long reliever, with depth (houlton 1st, sele 2nd, billingsley 3rd) in the minors in case of injuries.
I have a feeling that 2 things are important to ned, 1 is depth in case of injuries, 2 is plenty of time in the minors for our prospects to develop (not rushing them).
http://tinyurl.com/7cbzb
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5289794
Rafael Furcal and Kenny Lofton are going to love playing the Padres.
I heard the Simers show today and everything your source says is exactly what I remember.
I happen to like his show because he sticks it to everyone, without concern for who they are or what their position is. He then sits back and observes how they react to his schtick. Some, like DePo handle it without getting angry, but without really getting into it, and others like Ned really seem to enjoy it.
I only wish he would leave his daughter at home, or at least ask her to tone down her shrill voice.
Simers admitted to actually liking Kent, probably because he speaks his mind. Simers doesn't like tap dancers (are you listening Tommy L.?).
Teams might run on him but he's still a pretty big upgrade over what they had, and for 2 million, IMO, worth the risk.
Simers asked him if the major deal was going to be for power or getting rid of OP (in a tone meant to convey "it must be one of those two options". Ned chuckled and said "neither" (but somewhat unconvincingly).
Of course he could swing a deal for Abreu and then come back and say he doesn't consider Abreu a "power" hitter.
Actually said he was working on one minor and one fairly major deal. Seems to me if he could get Abreu it would be a very major deal, so that probably ain't gonna happen. Someone like Aubrey Huff might be considered fairly major, or he could just be blowing smoke to keep everyone off balance until he does or doesn't complete the deal.
Shame that Piazza didn't spend one year in a hitters park. He must really love to catch. He'll still get my applause when SD comes to town.
If we trade Yhancy for D Wells that would now make it:
Sanchez/Schmoll/Yhancy/E Jackson/Tiffany for
Seo/D Wells/Baez/Haumuluk/Carter
Seems like a decent turnover to me. Maybe we can flip Baez for D Wells instead and sign Gagne to that long term extension he was hinting about today. Big mistake in my opinion but everyone here seems to kneel at the Gagne alter even if it is clearly the wrong religion.
Bob, Ken Rosenthal thinks kearns will be traded.
http://tinyurl.com/dh9f5
By "here" are we to assume you mean Dodger Thoughts or L.A. in general? If it is the the former, I think you are mistaken. I think anyone who tries to characterize the dodgers thoughts community as one that has a single viewpoint on any one issue is off the mark. But it makes for a great ending to a comment.
Low risk/high reward for the Padres.
I'd rather have Piazza on the Dodgers, than Sandy, especially at that price.
160 - Yeah seriously, hard to believe Mr. Ned passed up that many PR points for that little $$
But here is what the Reds GM said:
http://tinyurl.com/8873y
I think I'll forward that to Ken. Lazy Sunday.
A good deed...in a weary world
everyone here seems to kneel at the Gagne alter even if it is clearly the wrong religion.
Which threads are you reading?
perfect.
I would inviite Brown, make him pay his own plane fare and then cut him the first day into ST. On top of that I would let some poor clubhouse attendent who Brown probably abused 5 years ago deliver the news.
I agree with 150. No more deals. Ned started out strong and is moving the other direction. Plus there is no prospect I'm ready to give up.
Agree I would rather have had Piazza, but when Ned took Alomar a month ago, I'm guessing Mike's price was higher.
That's all I was saying. But different points of view can be overrated anyway. Different points of view lead to Jason Grabowski and Danys Baez.
No, I participated but my handle was Molokai at the time.
besides, piazza is going to a worse hitting park then shea, one yra older, and actually wants to catch more then 30 games a season.
he wouldnt fit in LA.
Even at 37, he's got to be the best hitting catcher in the NL West, no?
He hit 19 home runs last year. How many HRs did the LAD catchers hit? I don't think any other catcher in the NL West hit 15. Even the Rockies are lucky to get five home runs from their regular catcher, whoever he is.
Can get you a groundball or a strikeout, probably won't walk anyone.
Of course, the medicals aren't too encouraging.
My old handle "Molokai" was named after my dog who unexpectedly died last Thursday. It was time for a change and Jimmy Wynn was one of my favorites and I always loved his nickname.
I was surprised how much I missed my cat when she passed away. Her name must have cursed Heather Graham's awful sitcom.
On the subject, has anyone seen the Tonight Show episode where the late James Stewart read the poem about his dog that had just passed away? It was among the more poignant TV moments I've witnessed. I usually get a bit verklempt just thinking about it.
Is this where we go to congratulate Jon on his cardinal?
Sorry I've been away from the phone - some good comments.
189 - I can't believe how badly Stanford choked the final two minutes of that game and still won. If ever anyone needed more evidence that the Pac-10 is awful this year, that was it.
now what new names are Jim and Icaros posting under? Those guys were a great comedy team.
I rest my case.
If ever anyone needed more evidence that the Pac-10 is awful this year, that was it.
UCLA is 17-4. That's really all the evidence needed, though more is appreciated.
I really don't like this move for Piazza. He could have legitametly helped the Yankees, Indians (depending on how bad Hafner is at first base) or possibly the Angels just DHing. Now, he will decline even further, especially at PETCO. He's probably good for 15 home runs as a Padre, along with some atrocious defense.
You never know what to expect when you see Washington State play Oregon State.
We found him one day broken in the street
A typical lab mix but with a white eye and corkscrew tail
His leg had been broken but Dr Bell made him well
After the surgery he said he'd doubt if he could run or jump and that he might have a limp
We found him a new home but he kept coming back
The new owners threw up their arms and sent him away
We named him Molokai because Madagascar was to long
He not only didn't have a limp he could flat out jump
Our 4-foot fence couldn't contain him
Our 5-foot fence couldn't contain him
Our 6-foot fence couldn't contain him
Our 7-foot fence was just the ticket
We found him a friend who was baking in the Valley
We nursed her back to health and tried to find a home
However she was blind in one eye and not a brain in sight
No owner was interested so we presented her to him
They became best buddies and he protected her day and night
They played hard, the Lab and the Chow
Every time they busted out he kept her off the street
Sometimes they roamed for miles before the phone call came
They were always found together; never did he stray from her
Whenever I picked them up he always gave me the look, I understood it was
always her fault. He'd never have left or at least not for long
As she got older they could no longer play, he never quite understood
why she could no longer move, while he could still jump to the moon
With all the old animals in our house, his heart was the least likely to just give out
I'd never thought he go while in his sleep
Didn't seem right that he didn't put up a fight
A couple of friends who had multiple dogs have told me that dogs understand death. For example, if you have two dogs and one has to be put down, you should bring him home afterwards so the surviving dog can smell him. Otherwise they don't understand what happened to their pal. But they get it he died. Obvioulsy who knows if this is true. But seems like it provide her with closure.
I think the key to GM'ing is to build a 25 man roster as strong as possible, and to have a competant, logical, analytical field manager that implements appropriate playing time.
The only way someone can convince me that signing Piazza would be a bad move, would be if he took playing time away from a better option (Dionner Navarro).
If were going to subscribe to that logic, then isnt signing Nomar Garciapparra also a bad move, since he takes time away from a better option (Choi/Saenz)?
I dont believe in that theory. I think its best to build the best collection of 25 players, and to have a good manager that plays the correct people in their best place.
I'd feel alot better having Mike Piazza on the roster, than Sandy Alomar Jr.
Luke Walton, Kareem Rush, Brian Cook... meh.
Indeed, a good move by Towers. Bochy will make good use of Piazza. Besides being more far more valuable than detritus that passes as reserve catchers in the NL West -- Sandy Alomar/Yamid Haad/Yorvit Torrealba/Chris Snyder -- he's the most dangerous hitter of all NL West catchers, even at age 37.
I loved Sandy pitching a one hit shutout and watching Maury walk and then work his way home...Dodgers win 1 to 0!!!
Then Sandy quit to save his arm from falling off...the Dodgers (in a McCourt like fit) didn't take it well...they wanted Sandy to stay on another few years no matter what the rest of his life would be like with a dead arm.
No goodbye parties...he was gone!!
That off season, Maury refused to go to Japan with the team for whatever reason ....so the Dodgers in another McCourt like fit dumped Maury from the team!!!
NOTHING LEFT TO WATCH...
I, who had listened to every game since they arrived here in 1958, stopped paying any attention to my "beloved" Dodgers for about 5 years. Then for some reason in the mid 1970's I found them again.
Late rI grew to love the Cey's, Buckners, Garvey's etc.
NOW...I've been on the verge of leaving again since McCourt took over. With his Back East Boston Know it All B.S.
What the "McCourt's" don't understand is that there are always some players you love to follow and they keep you with the team!!!
It's a Comfort Zone.....LoDuca, Green and a few others were fun to watch, win or lose, and they were also good bunch of guys who loved LA. They even participated in city events.
The McCourts have dumped every connection with the old Dodgers including Joe Amalfitano and the equipment manager ...recently!!! Why???
There's no one left to follow...no thread left..If it wasn't for my love of Vin Scully.....
and occasionally to see Tommy Lasorda roll on to the field ...???
This new bunch is an interesting array of carpetbaggers...I'm gonna give it one last chance...if they don't grab me during spring training...this grandpa is off for other hunting grounds.
Maybe the Angels have room for some long time Ex-Dodger fans. I believe Arte Moreno really cares about HIS fans
NG
Del Rey.
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