OMG: Dave Anderson was the leadoff hitter. Wow.

Pedro at 3b was as special as Bobby Bonilla years later trying to do the same. Pedro still ranks in my top 10 Dodgers all time that I've seen hit.

I need to amend my list
Piazza
Beltre 2004 - how could i forget so soon
Sheffield-how I hate to even put him on the list
Wynn (74) as special to me as 85 pedro is to you
Pedro
S Green
Reggie Smith
Cey
Baker
Garvey
Richie Allen

My top Dodger hitters I've seen:
Piazza
Pedro
Baker
Smith
Tommy D.
Green
Wynn
Garvey
Willie D.
Cey

I've erased Sheffield from my memory.

Nuts - I thought Shav Glick posted here.

Molokai, I guess you are picking single seasons; I'm thinking more of Dodger careers.

My favorite ex-dodger that I never saw as a Dodger was Frank Howard. If you think RFK is a pitchers park now you should have seen what he did to it when pitching dominated baseball.

By the way, during the 80s and early 90s I attended at least a dozen Dodger games at Olympic Stadium (the Starship Enterprise which sometimes had a roof and other times not) with my buddy Elden, who was probably the only other Dodger fan living in Vermont. I only remember LA winning two or three times, and usually getting whacked.

Piazza
Pedro
Sheffield
Garvey
Cey

what dodger cant miss prospects, (or guys who put up huge numbers in the minors) missed in the last 20 years or so?

In fact, I might have to rank Pedro Guerrero as the best hitter I have seen, I recall Bill James often placing him among the best players in his early abstracts, he was a World Series co-MVP and played on 2 other Division champions. In many ways, he was the best player on the Dodgers between the Garvey, Cey, Baker, R. Smith era and the Piazza, Mondesi, Karros, Sheff, Shawn Green and Beltre teams.

Guess hitting a lot of meaningless homers just doesn't cut it with this group of commentators. I'd be hard pressed to put him in my top 20.

Sure the 80's group of prospects didn't match their hype, but in retrospect Marshall, Brock, Candy Maldonaldo and Duncan did become serviceable major leaguers. And some like Dave Stewart and Wetteland became stars elsewhere.

That's more than you can say for the equally hyped Jose Gonzalez, Billy Ashley,Karim Garcia, Wilton Guerrero and lately, Joe Thurston.

I still strongly dislike Franklin Stubbs, though.

If memory serves, it was an afternoon game and extremely hot. For those of you not from the Midwest, St. Louis in July is not pleasant, especially in those days when the artificial turf only increased the heat. I could be wrong on the day/night thing of this game, I'm sure someone will correct me if I am.

When he bunted, at first we were elated because it was obvious Pendleton would have no play, then it turned to concern because it looked like the ball HAD to go foul. It didn't, and just kept trickling down the line. Duncan was taking a few steps toward second until he was about a third of the way toward second before taking off. Probably the most incredible play I've seen at a baseball game.

A lot of meaningful strikeouts doesn't help much either...

Throw didn't come to second. On balls hit all the way to the wall with no chance to get the hitter at second, often the defense will send out a double-cutoff (or back-up cutoff). Purpose is that if the outfielder overthrows the cutoff man (in this case the second basemen) the shortstop is positioned 10-15 feet behind the second baseman and can take the throw and complete the relay either to home to get the runner, or to third to get the batter going for a triple.

As it stands, Karros did only have two really good seasons. '95 (.298/.369/.535 145 OPS+), and '99 (.304/.362/.550 131 OPS+). After '99, he never OPSed over .800 again. Could a player who was only 32 take that sudden of a drop off naturally?

I'm not sure I agree with gvette that Marshall or Brock were serviceable major leaguers. They were marginal. Ashley was awful. Maldonado was a decent bench guy for a while. And I also don't think the hype for Thurston, or Wilton G, or the others in the later cohort was anywhere near what it was for Marshall and Brock, especially controlling for media era.

Dodger pitching prospects, of course, have more often than not out-performed the hype. I've always attributed this to park effects. Albuquerque and the PCL in general made pedestrian hitters look awesome and terrific pitchers look pedestrian. Dodger Stadium doesn the opposite. Idiotic to keep the AAA affiliate there for so long. And now Vegas doesn't seem much of an improvement.

It could have been that he hit a high chopper and it once it rolled into the outfield, the person keeping the scoresheet wrote something like "D9" since the rightfielder picked it up.

I've had the Danny Kaye D-O-D-G-E-R-S song stuck in my head for about a week now. Thankfully, I love the song. But I'm starting to wonder if the lyric of that song is responsible for the "Dodger Way" obsession with small ball. As you'll recall, the upshot is that the Dodgers beat the Jints 5-4, with Cepeda's grand slam overcome by bunts and singles. Big Frank Howard gets a bunt-HR! Or technically, I guess there are 2 errors on the play (the "Miller-Hiller-Haller Hallelujah Twist" on the bunt itself and the ball hitting him in the "seat of his pants" to ruin a sure out at the plate). Whereas Danny Kaye was engaged in the theater of the absurd, it seems that Dodgerland might have missed the irony.

My favorite thing about the song is the Vin Scully reference. After Wills is mistakenly called out on a steal attempt:

"Down in the dugout, Alston glowers
Up in the both, Vin Scully frowns
Out in the stands, O'Malley grins
Atten-dance fifty thousand.
And what does O'Malley do?
CHARGE!"

Brilliant.

And the argument that all of his HRs were meaningless is silly.

Here are a few big HRs just off the top of my head.

1. 1st round playoff game vs. Reds, Karros hit 2 HRs, in a loss, one was in the 9th off Brantley to pull the Dodgers within a run. Yeah, that was meaningless.

2. vs. Mets at Shea off Franco and Benitez in the same game, one in the 9th and the other in extras.

3. vs. Giants in the home 8th off Burba, Game winner, 2nd of the game

4. And with the Cubs vs. Yankees off Acevado. That HR was so devastating that it pretty much led to the Yankees cutting Acevado from the roster.

32: Karros legacy may have improved without the back injury. It killed his bat speed. He certainly wouldn't have been salary dumped by Dan Evans.

The three Dodgers I have seen who hit the ball the hardest are Frank Howard, Mike Piazza and Pedro Guerrero. Dick Allen played one year for LA. When I saw him at the beginning of his career in Philadelphia, he belonged in that group.

I did not see this, but heard about it. When Frank Howard playd in Spokane he hit a line drive off the left field wall. The wall itself was made of concrete. The ball hit the concrete wall and rolled all the way back to the shortstop.

Stan from Tacoma

During those years I was banished in Portland without cable so the local news ideas of sports highlights was the Trailblazers summer rookie camps. There was a local sports radio guy who was a Dodger fan, so my only news on the Dodgers was him and the boxscores. Karros and Piazza were the only guys putting up any numbers in the box scores, so that what my only connection.

For the most part my memories of Karros are fond because he and Piazza were the only faces for the Dodgers that I saw.

I like Steve Garvey, even though I don't have as high an opinion of him now as I did when I was 11.

I like Cesar Izturis, even though I don't think he's a leadoff hitter.

Ultimately, I think the reactions you're seeing are counterpoints to the mainstream opinions. Around Los Angeles, people tend to think of Karros as a great player, Garvey as a Hall of Famer and Izturis as an All-Star. I don't agree with those assessments. But when things go too far in the other direction, that bums me out as well. Karros was hardly worthless, and absolutely, he did have some big moments.

The worst playoff strikeout I remember is Billy Ashley in game 1 in '96. Also known as the worst game I have ever attended. After getting stuck in traffic and arriving two innings late, Maddux proceeds to absolutely decimatate the Dodgers for seven innings allowing two unearned runs. (Hollandsworth singled, advanced on an error, followed by Olneys by Wayne Kirby and Piazza. Piazza singled, advanced on an error, then Mondesi doubled him in.)

Hope arrived when Maddux came out in the 8th. With the bases empty and two out, Billy Ashley pinch hit for Astacio. Dodger Stadium, without any form of make some noise prompt, got louder than I ever heard it. Ashley then struck out, on three pitches if I recall correctly.

Soon there after, the game was over. Time of the game, 2:08.

Nothing wrong with that, but nothing by itself special about it either. Any player who bats cleanup full time and DOESN'T manage 100 RBI is either hitting behind a great hitter who keeps clearing the bases in front of him, or stinks. 100 RBI is evidence only of his ability to stay in the lineup. Not trivial, but not special either. 30 HRs is 30 HRs, and nothing to sneeze at, but also nothing spectacular considering his era.

who is a quote machine for the local media?

Well, since the quotes were invariably self-serving, especially later on his career, I'd hardly count that in his favor.

who is good in the community and stays clean of trouble?

I'll grant you this one.

who comes up from the farm system

Don't care.

wins ROY

Again, don't care. This is like RBIs - it is a function of others' performances. He really wasn't that good as a rookie. Sort of won by default. Moreover, his winning the award (and anyone winning such an award) is a function of others' perceptions of your ability, not an independent indicator of your actual ability.

and works hard every day, considering he wasn't one of those players with the most raw talent.

I have no idea how hard he worked, but I'll grant you that he did pretty well for himself given his below-average (for a major leaguer) athleticism. Can't fault him for being a slacker or anything like that.

But as with Cora, Izturis, Lo Duca, I think the "disdain" you perceive is really directed at those (including Karros himself) who claim that he was better than he actually was. I don't blame Izuturis for having no power or batting eye. But I do disdain those who would claim that he's a good hitter despite the fact that he has no power or strike-zone judgment and despite his actual performance as a pretty bad hitter.

The disdain is for the evaluation, not for the player. Just because we take issue with overrating players doesn't mean we think those players stink (EK, PLD, Derek Freakin' Jeter), and, similarly, just because we take issue with under-rating players doesn't mean we think those players are HOFers or all-stars, or even very good (HSC).

Hah! Good nickname. Or how about we just commission him with faux-military rank:

General Soreness

Or, since he was a big guy (and a big pain):

Major-General Soreness

Kevin Freakin Tapani

I think the biggest dissapointment in a prospect not making it was Jose Offerman but that was before I had become enlightened by BP. I'm sure that with my current knowledge I never would have put such expectations on him. Was equally bummed when players like Kiki Jones and Dan Opperman blew out their arms before they could show us the Gooden promise of their golden but evidently fragile arms.

I wonder if anyone has ever been listed on the injury report with "malaise" or "lethargy."

JD Drew...?

See, this is where enlightenment hurt you. Mine must have come later, and I'm certainly not as knowledgeable about minor leaguers as many people here. (In fact, DT is my major source of prospect info, so there ya go.) But I never even heard of either of these fellows. I guess when it comes to failed prospects, ignorance is bliss.

Too late. Big Joe McDonnell claims to have coined "General Soreness" back in the 80s. When it comes to lame, derogatory nicknames for Dodgers, the Big Nasty has the market cornered (Paul Stupidesta, anyone?).

Piazza and Sheffield are the only ones I got to see in person that seemed other-worldly with the bat.

Of players I've never seen in person, I always liked Kirby Puckett, I don't know why even, but I became a part-time twins fan. I also was always interested in Gabby Hartnett for some reason. Catcher thing I guess.

However, since when is 30 HR/100 RBI's nothing special? I would be curious to know what % of MLB players do that and do it consistantly . . . even what % of clean up hitters! The Dodgers couldn't get that kind of production out of anyone last year (Kent had 29 HR). OK I just looked: There were only 20 players in all of MLB that accomplished 30 HR/100 RBI, less than 1 per team.

I guess my perception of Karros comments were not that he was "invariably self-serving." He was a team leader, speaking for the team. I'd be interested to see a direct quote or two (especially between 94-00 when he was most productive) where Karros used the opportunity to self-promote or over-evaluate himself. I know that later he did feel Jim Tracy wasn't giving him enough playing time, but what player steps aside gracefully.

I don't understand why you wouldn't care that Karros came up through the farm. We spend TONS of time caring about the farm system around here and dreaming of the day the Billingsley's and Guzman's and LaRoche's are playing at Chavez Ravine.

Winning the ROY award, even if his numbers may not have warranted it that season, brough pride to the team and the community. Such recognition is valuable for the franchise.

I must burn my keyboard and undertake a cleansing ritual. 20 "Hail BillJameses" and 35 "Our Vinnies" as penance. And I'm not even Catholic.

As for the farm thing, I agree that it's fun to watch a guy come up through the system and succeed, to build expectations and then have them realized or even surpassed (Piazza). I was just disagreeing that it made Karros somehow better to have been a Dodger prospect. Not that you actually meant to say that. Just that my assessment of a player's quality is unaffected by his upbringing. When Shawn Green came to replace Raul Mondesi, I was sorry that Mondesi had peaked, but was much happier to have Green on the team for those next few years, because he was a much better player during that time.

Actually, my memory of the reaction to Karros's ROY matches my own assessment. Someone had to win it, and he was the least bad choice, but his rookie year did not, in my memory, foreshadow great things to come.
.257/.304/.426 ?? Yuck.

It was funny to see your post. I always think "bunt double" when I see Mariano's name.

I haven't looked up the details on Retrosheet but I'm sure Bob will shortly inform me that they're all wrong. ;)

But generally, even when he was good, he wasn't very good, and when he was bad he was very, very bad. I liked him for a while but that ended when he began to complain about playing time despite his obvious suckitude. Then came some of the comments he's made as an announcer, and I just wrote him off altogether.

In my professional life I was grateful for him, though; he's one of the more thoughtful players I've interviewed. I wish that side came across in his announcing.

Piazza
Shef (teeth gritted; I can't even spell the whole name out)
Green
Karros
Um, Jeff Weaver, maybe. . .

Or unless he hits first or second in the order, like Nomar 1997 or Bobby Bonds many years.

Maury Will at bat
Hit it for me once
Stu Miller throws
Maury BUNTS!

Cepeda runs to field the ball and Hiller covers first
Haller runs to back up Hiller
Hiller crashes into Miller
Miller falls
Drops the ball
Conlan calls "SAFE"
YAY, MAURY!

Conlan was the 2nd base umpire, or so it seems from the bottom of the sixth when he made the aforementioned (39) mistaken call on Maury's SB attempt. So that was either a bunt double or an E-1, depending on the scorer.

Good point. The Dodgers wouldn't dare put a guy with HR power that high, though, would they?

Hey, maybe THAT'S why Tracy soured on Choi. Had Choi hit 2nd all year, he had a fighting chance at a 30 HR/80 RBI season (as it was, he hit 15/42 in 320 ABs). That would have caused the universe to fold in on itself. Tracy was a HERO! How could we have been so wrong to doubt him?!

Did you like UVM? Burlington is a really nice little city, though those winds off of Lake Champlain in January were brutal. I always thought it would be a fun place to go to school.

I don't blame Sheffield for being traded here for Piazza. I don't blame him for being ticked off at the Fox management or the general suckitude of the team. And I still love to watch him hit. Yeah, he's an egomaniac, but as far as I can tell, it's never hurt his teams. And for goodness sake, the guy had "Uncle" Doc Gooden as a role model. It's amazing that he's been as good a citizen as he has!

Was hoping we'd pick up Jason Marquis so I could watch him hit.

the hardest hit balls i have ever seen were hit by:

willie mccovey
willie stargell
jose canseco
albert belle
carlos delgado

One of my favorite players of all time, this almost vindicates the Depo firing and has rekindled my interest in the team. Certainly he has to be on someone's top 10 list of best Dodger hitters they've seen. Admittedly he was at the end of his career but.....

My big thrill was being his shoe sponsor back in the 80's and delivering new shoes to him at Memorial Stadium. I was so nervous meeting him! Also had shoes made for a number of other pro players back in the day but Eddie was pretty special.

Yeah, these are things I'm thinking about....

Thinking outside the box - that's the difference for the HoF.

I forgot to wish everybody a happy Fast of Tevet, yesterday. The Hebrew Callender thunderbird extension is one of my favorites.

Letting "a few balls go by him" in Millwaukee so they would trade him. (Easily ehough to earn him the crown.)

Remember what he said about the fans in L.A., or just the team in general? I really wish I had the exact quotes.

Well, it was until he grounded into the invitable double play. Of course, that was only during his second stint with the Dodgers.

He's the answer to my favorite baseball trivia question: Who's the only player in history to lead the major leagues in batting but not win a batting title?

(for the record, my dislike comes from him always saying, its only June, we have time, no reason to panic yada yada..)

21 seasons for Murray and 4x 30 100
14 seasons for Karros and 5x 30 100

Given the current roster, I wouldn't mind seeing a 1B put up similar numbers to what Karros did in '95-'99.

now that i think about it...vindicate is clearly the wrong word, but i'm not the wordsmith others here are. but i think you get my point. Sad about DePo but if Depo had to go, then glad about Murray. rgds, will

1. Guerrero 1985
2. Gibson 1988
3. Piazza 1997
4. Green 2001
5. Sheffield 2000
6. Valenzuela 1982 [1990 was his best year (102 OPS+) but I remember the early years best].
7. Beltre 2004
8. Strawberry 1991
9. Kent 2005
10. Sax 1983