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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Vin's Here!
2006-03-19 08:18
by Jon Weisman

It's the first televised Dodger game of the year with Vin Scully: 10 a.m. on Channel 9 in Los Angeles. Enjoy.

* * *

Jae Seo pitched five shutout innings in Korea's World Baseball Classic loss to Japan on Saturday night. Earlier, Odalis Perez took the loss for the Dominican Republic against Cuba despite allowing three infield grounders and nothing else. Two of the grounders managed to become hits, and the third one drove in a run to break a 0-0 tie.

In any event, the two pitchers will soon be back in Dodgertown.

Comments (294)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2006-03-19 08:20:28
1.   Jon Weisman
Dodger Thoughts March Madness Leaders, Day 3:

1 joekings , J. Reyes 390 points (25-7, 7-1)
2 Timberlake 1 , S. Timberlake 380 points (22-10, 8-0)
yu 4 pto bracket , d. yu 380 points (22-10, 8-0)
kiely 1 , t. kiely 380 points (26-6, 6-2)

2006-03-19 09:16:59
3.   Jon Weisman
2 - I'm not sure I understand the rationale of your system. The inherent reward of successfully picking a lower seed is that fewer people in your pool will pick lower seeds. I don't know why there needs to be an extra point incentive beyond that.
2006-03-19 09:30:55
4.   Steve
Among the issues will be whether to begin the season with 11 or 12 pitchers. Little is leaning toward 11 because there are three off days in April, meaning a four-man starting rotation can be used for most of the month.

Wile E. Coyote, Super-Genius.

2006-03-19 09:40:21
5.   Jon Weisman
They shouldn't need 12 pitchers, period.
2006-03-19 09:42:35
6.   D4P
Nor should they need 4 shortstops.
2006-03-19 09:57:21
7.   Bob Timmermann
Tony La Russa would love a team with 13 or 14 pitchers. And all the other guys would be catchers.
2006-03-19 09:59:22
8.   Steve
The more first basemen, the better!
2006-03-19 10:06:55
9.   DeucesAreWild
Did Choi give up his number to Nomar?
2006-03-19 10:08:06
10.   scanderbeg
Regardless of whatever happens with the Dodgers this season, it is really good to hear Vin this morning.
2006-03-19 10:11:33
11.   Bob Timmermann
Choi, in theory, will wear #18.
2006-03-19 10:14:19
12.   Andrew Shimmin
Two on, nobody out; time to see how Cruz bunts.
2006-03-19 10:17:00
13.   kegtron
Hey I took a dynamics class with Billy Traber!
2006-03-19 10:20:29
After yesterday's day of chaos over here, its so nice to be able to turn on the computer and hear the calming voice of Vin Scully. Heaven.
2006-03-19 10:20:29
After yesterday's day of chaos over here, its so nice to be able to turn on the computer and hear the calming voice of Vin Scully. Heaven.
2006-03-19 10:20:56
16.   Bob Timmermann
Couldn't they find a better place for the home plate camera than a spot where
2006-03-19 10:21:39
17.   Bob Timmermann
... the screen doesn't get in the way?
2006-03-19 10:25:35
18.   Andrew Shimmin
Alomar clutchily willed Zimmerman into throwing that away. What a gamer!
2006-03-19 10:28:52
19.   Linkmeister
Woot! I'm number 2! I'm number 2!
2006-03-19 10:30:13
20.   Linkmeister
In the tournament standings, I mean.
2006-03-19 10:30:40
21.   bcmaiden
could someone relay what's happening in the game for those of us who can't see or hear it?
2006-03-19 10:33:52
22.   King of the Hobos
21 Lowe has 4 groundouts and 2 Ks so far

As for the Dodgers, Furcal singled, Lofton singled, Cruz singled, and an error advanced the runners, Kent hit a sac fly, Nomar popped up, Mueller singled in another, Ledee doubled, Zimmerman threw away Alomar's ball to score 2 runs, Lowe made out, 5 runs scored

2006-03-19 10:35:42
23.   Bob Timmermann
The CBS producer must have loved this because for the Bradley vs. Pittsburgh game, the abbreviations on the scoreboard read:


2006-03-19 10:37:47
24.   bcmaiden
holy begeezus!! thanks king. who's pitching for the nats?
2006-03-19 10:39:39
25.   Bob Timmermann
Billy Traber on the hill for Your Nats.
2006-03-19 10:43:46
26.   King of the Hobos
The Nationals are missing Marlon Byrd due to a finger injury, the dreaded sliced finger while cutting a grapefruit
2006-03-19 10:44:22
27.   King of the Hobos
26 Anderson. Marlon Anderson. I believe Byrd is in LF for them
2006-03-19 10:46:23
28.   King of the Hobos
Frank Robinson is arguing over an easy out? What?
2006-03-19 10:46:45
29.   Andrew Shimmin
Toss him! Do it! Throw him out of a ST game!
2006-03-19 10:47:22
30.   bcmaiden
...and our lineup?
2006-03-19 10:50:09
31.   Andrew Shimmin


2006-03-19 10:50:17
32.   Bob Timmermann
The Nationals would obviously not be in this mess if Luis Ayala hadn't gotten injured in the WBC.
2006-03-19 10:50:50
33.   capdodger
That was weird...
2006-03-19 10:53:54
Colletti = boring
2006-03-19 10:56:37
35.   Bob Timmermann
The Dodgers haven't had a GM who was an interesting interview subject since Kevin Malone.

Be thankful for boring GMs (Evans, DePodesta, Colletti).

2006-03-19 11:00:56
36.   capdodger
Boring GMs realize it isn't about them.

Old friend Daryl Ward with the RBI groudout.

2006-03-19 11:04:15
37.   King of the Hobos
Doesn't Bowden give interesting interviews? If tat's the case, boring GMs are far better
2006-03-19 11:05:46
38.   Steve
If Bill Madden talks to Jim Tracy, can the end really be far behind?
2006-03-19 11:07:19
39.   Bob Timmermann
If I were Jim Bowden, I would be an interesting interview subject. I would be able to tell you how a good a job I have done with Washington and how any failures by the team are the player's fault, not me, Jim Bowden. Because I know what's best for the Washington Nationals and I have a brain that sees things the way that others people don't.

For example, I see Cristian Guzman as a good hitter.

2006-03-19 11:08:43
40.   willhite
First TV game observations:

1) Daryle Ward should never be placed anywhere which would require using a fielder's glove. The DH rule should be re-named the DW rule.

2) Some would like to see LaRoche start the season as the Dodger third baseman. Some would like to see Nomah move to third so HSC could have a place to play on this team, but gosh darnit, Bill Mueller knows how to hit, and we're going to be very glad we have him this year.

2006-03-19 11:08:53
41.   Icaros
I thought DePodesta gave interesting interviews.

He would use words like "aggregate" when responding to questions from McDonnell and Krikorian, and they had no idea what he was talking about.

2006-03-19 11:11:28
42.   Steve
McDonnell is a one grunt for yes, two grunts for no kind of guy.
2006-03-19 11:14:01
43.   willhite
42 -

Joe McD has found love and has shed the McNasty part of his life. He may actually start expanding his vocabulary to three or four grunts.

2006-03-19 11:17:26
44.   Steve
I believe in redemption, though not for the idiot that came up with the Oakland Bracket.
2006-03-19 11:22:54
45.   Bob Timmermann
When CBS showed the Bradley announcer who played on the last Bradley team that was in the Final Four, he neglected to mention that the team he was on was taking bribes to throw games.

Bradley lost in the championship games of BOTH the NIT and NCAA to CCNY in 1950.

And both teams were on the take.

2006-03-19 11:24:35
46.   Steve
I'm looking forward to the Brad Buck regional semifinal.
2006-03-19 11:33:13
47.   Icaros
I'm looking forward to The Sopranos tonight.
2006-03-19 11:35:21
48.   Bob Timmermann
And I'll be one of those people watching it at 6 pm since I have an East Coast HBO feed.

I'll be sure to start blabbing around 7 pm PT.

Except I'm worried that Casey (aka "Little Pussy") is out to get me.

2006-03-19 11:36:53
49.   Andrew Shimmin
Of the few things that I might do with fifty cents, none of them would be vote on which Dodger FA signing will have the greatest "impact" on the 2006 team. And I don't understand why anybody else would.
2006-03-19 11:37:41
50.   Icaros

I'll be watching at 6:00 myself.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2006-03-19 11:41:46
51.   D4P
I will only charge you $0.49* for the privelege of calling me with your vote.

*Penalties apply for Lucile II votes.

2006-03-19 11:45:32
52.   Andrew Shimmin
51- Maybe the best part is that they're picking Nomar over Furcal three or four to one. So, I guess that explains that.
2006-03-19 11:48:40
53.   capdodger
Darn, no Tucker-Gange II. Oh, well.
2006-03-19 11:52:20
54.   Bob Timmermann
Just another ground out for Aybar.
2006-03-19 12:00:54
55.   thinkblue0
greeeeeeeeeeeat...martinez with a double. This doesn't bode it possible that Repko AND Martinez make the squad?
2006-03-19 12:01:33
56.   capdodger
Project SMOtheR fails again.
2006-03-19 12:02:06
57.   D4P
Don't forget Robles and Izturis.
2006-03-19 12:02:44
58.   D4P
Project SMOtheR has been an abject failure thus far.
2006-03-19 12:05:21
59.   Bob Timmermann
I hope the new seats at Dodger Stadium have actual seats in them. The ones they showed just had backs.

I'm not paying all that money to squat like a catcher for three hours.

2006-03-19 12:07:25
60.   MartinBillingsley31
Does anyone think the dodgers might keep both martinez and robles, therefore not keep both repko and ross.

Apparently martinez can play every position except catcher, so he could be the 5th outfielder.

Its gonna be interesting to see what the dodgers do with repko and ross, if martinez is the 5th outfielder and with guzman and ethier and young in the outfield at AAA.

Could we get anything good in a trade for repko and ross?
Will the dodgers add someone of significance to repko/ross to get something valuable back.

2006-03-19 12:09:19
61.   Giant Hater
Sadly, reality holds true...Dodger fans, including I, would relucantly squat like a catcher for three hours to watch our team.
2006-03-19 12:10:40
62.   thinkblue0

my biggest problem is that this whole Martinez thing is going to take a spot away from someone else..and we're short on spots as it is. SOMEONE is going to be odd man out so that Martinez makes the team which is a huuuuge mistake in my opinion.

2006-03-19 12:11:22
63.   Giant Hater
But being true Dodger fans, we no doubt would moan and whine the whole time, only afterwards complaining about the lack of actual seats at the stadium.
2006-03-19 12:12:36
64.   Icaros
I'm not paying all that money to squat like a catcher for three hours.

All you do is complain!

2006-03-19 12:16:29
65.   Fallout
41 Icaros
I thought DePodesta gave interesting interviews.
He would use words like "aggregate"

So why would he be taking about cement?

2006-03-19 12:16:30
66.   bcmaiden
60. i think martinez & robles both make the squad and only ross or repko makes it. since cody is out of options, barring a trade, he makes the squad & jason goes to vegas. i think choi is the only ? mark.
2006-03-19 12:19:50
67.   Icaros

It was code for the contents of Jim Tracy's skull.

2006-03-19 12:26:16
68.   MartinBillingsley31
Unfortunately i think management doesn't care about choi.
And the deal with repko and ross is that there is no where to put them considering the triple-A outfield of guzman ethier and young.

I see a trade coming involving choi and an outfielder or 2 that doesn't make the team.
And maybe the dodgers sweeten the pot with someone else to get something of value back.

Maybe i'm nuts.

2006-03-19 12:32:59
69.   Andrew Shimmin
Furcal closed the gap. He's only down two to one, now.

I predict that, at some point during the season, seeing the Blue Man Group one more time will make me seriously consider killing myself.

2006-03-19 12:51:14
70.   Icaros
Is it true that all of the ushers and concessions workers this season will be Blue Men/Women?

That would be a trip.

2006-03-19 12:52:04
71.   Linkmeister
This probably belongs at The Griddle, but I don't know if anyone will look at WBC stuff again till tomorrow.

Photos and slideshow of the two semifinal games yesterday, from Ducksnorts via David Pinto:

2006-03-19 12:53:44
72.   Icaros
I also recall reading that during this year's Think Blue Week, the players, coaching staff, and manager will be in Blue Face.
2006-03-19 12:59:00
73.   al bundy
I'm listening to espn and the discussion with Buster Olney was about the Red Sox. They're supposedly looking into a trade or 2 because Lowell looks terrible, showing no sign of improvement, and JT Snow is showing nothing (go figure). So they're looking for power at the corner positions. I wonder how Choi would look in Boston...they still have Wells to trade. Maybe we could send Nomar back? ha.
2006-03-19 13:02:44
74.   al bundy
Anyone with a game update? How'd Gagne look?
2006-03-19 13:14:39
75.   King of the Hobos
73 Our rotation seems fine, and deep enough that hopefully Colletti has stopped his pursuit of Wells. I do want Choi to go to Boston though, as they would play him, and he doesn't seem to have a spot on our roster. Maybe Choi to Boston, Graffanino to Mets/Cubs, and a prospect to us.

Also, the Pirates are looking to deal Craig Wilson for a veteran starter. I'm not sure we can trade him, but Sele is as veteran as you can get. He's also a professional, Tracy would love that

2006-03-19 13:17:29
76.   natepurcell
epstein would be smart to look towards the dodgers and trade for choi.
2006-03-19 13:17:35
77.   Bob Timmermann
Since Sele's a non-roster invitee, I assume all the Dodgers can do with him is cut him or put him on the 40-man roster.

Who would want to give up a player for Aaron Sele?

2006-03-19 13:19:51
78.   D4P
epstein would be smart to look towards the dodgers and trade for choi.

Especially since Flanders will be practically giving him away.

2006-03-19 13:23:47
79.   Bob Timmermann
I'm so impressed that a college named after an heroic CTU agent has come so far in the NCAA tournament.
2006-03-19 13:28:31
80.   Andrew Shimmin
Isn't Youkilis the Red Sox's starting 1B? Can he still play 3B? If only the Sox kept Dave Roberts, Flanders could send Choi and Aybar in exchange for him.
2006-03-19 13:29:07
81.   D4P
The college named after a famous fried chicken restaurant is threatening a number one seed.
2006-03-19 13:33:09
82.   Bob Timmermann
My mother taught me not to root for the chicken-themed school. She hated Adolph Rupp. The only exception to this was the famous game against Duke at The Spectrum. And that day, my mother called me long distance to make sure I was watching the game.
2006-03-19 13:36:33
83.   Andrew Shimmin
The perfect trade--

Red Sox get: Choi and Aybar
Padres get: Wells
Dodgers get: Dave Roberts

2006-03-19 13:37:19
84.   natepurcell
for those that caught the backend of the game today, how did broxton and baez look?
2006-03-19 13:42:44
85.   D4P
Looks like the chicken-themed team has to foul.
2006-03-19 13:46:26
86.   Uncle Miltie
The perfect trade
for the Red Sox...

I see Ned trading Choi and/or Ross for a PTBNL or cash.

UConn better win this game!

2006-03-19 13:51:17
87.   D4P
Downright scraptacular.

Five runs scored in the first inning on a fielder's choice and error off the bat of Jose Cruz Jr., a Jeff Kent sacrifice fly, an RBI single by Bill Mueller and a two-run throwing error by Zimmerman.

2006-03-19 13:56:05
88.   CT Bum
Huskies win!

Amazingly this was the first time Kentucky and UConn have met.

Being a UConn grad, I'm quite pleased with the outcome, and seeing the rest of the bracket (Washington, George Mason, & Wichita St), I'll be mightily disappointed if we don't get to Indy now.

2006-03-19 14:02:16
89.   natepurcell
i like a couple of the arms the sox drafted last year. maybe we can get one of them as a PTBNL.
2006-03-19 14:05:26
90.   Andrew Shimmin
89- Maybe if we throw in Izturis. A one armed Izturis should still be better than Alex Gonzalez.
2006-03-19 14:05:42
91.   natepurcell
felix doubront and micheal bowden for choi and ross if they want him.
2006-03-19 14:10:42
92.   Bob Timmermann

The Cora and Izzie reunion! It's only a motion away!

And I wouldn't give you false hope.

2006-03-19 14:11:50
93.   Uncle Miltie
I want to keep Aybar. There's no reason to give him away. He can fill in at 2B until DeWitt is ready.
2006-03-19 14:13:07
94.   natepurcell
i agree. i dont think the dodgers will give aybar away.... yet.
2006-03-19 14:16:34
95.   kngoworld
I was at the stadium yesterday, all the seats had bottoms except the newly redesigned foul line seats.
2006-03-19 14:18:06
96.   Andrew Shimmin
I don't want Aybar gone, but I don't see him sticking around if Ramon Martinez is above him on the depth chart. Except, if they're only carrying 11 pitchers, then the IF bench is Saenz, Aybar, Robles, and Martinez. So, I guess you're right. Choi and Izzy to Boston. If they can find a sucker to take Lowell. Seatle has a thing for crapped out 3Bs. . .
2006-03-19 14:20:05
97.   Uncle Miltie
96- Aybar can be our starting 2B in the minors. He still has at least 1 option left. Ramon Martinez won't be here for more than a year. We have no need for Dave Roberts. We aren't going to pay $2-3 million to a 5th outfielder.
2006-03-19 14:20:15
98.   Andrew Shimmin
Now that my bracket is destroyed, I can revert to rooting for the teams I'd prefer won, rather than the ones that would make me look like I knew anything about college basketball. This by way of saying: Go Wildcats!
2006-03-19 14:21:46
99.   Andrew Shimmin
97- How do you get the roster to 25 if you have 11 pitchers, and keep Aybar in AAA?
2006-03-19 14:28:04
100.   Bob Timmermann

Hedging your bets. Are you going to root for the Huskies too in the UConn-UW game as well?

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2006-03-19 14:32:44
101.   Andrew Shimmin
100- Absolutely. And UCLA over Gonzaga. In fact, my new Final Four is: UCLA, Washington, Arizona, and Duke.
2006-03-19 14:33:52
102.   Andrew Shimmin
101 Update: Actually, forget Duke. I'm going to stick with Syracuse. They may be out, but they're still my pick. Syracuse 4ever.
2006-03-19 14:36:25
103.   Uncle Miltie
1. Baez
2. Brazoban
3. Saito
4. Carter
5. Gagne
6. Kuo
7. Lowe *
8. Osoria
9. Penny *
10. Perez *
11. Seo *
12. Tomko *

If we carry 11 pitchers, take out Saito/Osoria
1. Alomar
2. Martin/Navarro (if Navarro isn't healthy)
3. Furcal
4. Nomar
5. Kent
6. Mueller
7. Robles
8. Saenz
9. Cruz
10. Drew
11. Ledee
12. Lofton
13. Repko
14. Martinez

If we carry 12 pitchers, take out Robles

2006-03-19 14:37:32
104.   Jon Weisman
99 - The likely bench remains:

Robles/Choi/Ethier (LH bat)
Ross/Repko/Cruz (with Guzman starting) (RH bat)

2006-03-19 14:39:52
105.   Andrew Shimmin
103, 104- Apparently counting is above my pay grade. Sorry.
2006-03-19 14:41:25
106.   Uncle Miltie
Jon, you think Guzman is going to be the starting LF? I think he'll start the year in AAA and Cruz will be the starting LF. If Cruz flops and/or Guzman destroys AAA and shows that he can play average defense in LF, then I can see the switch being made.
2006-03-19 14:43:41
107.   Jon Weisman
106 - I would still bet against it, but they're taking a while to rule it out. Edwin Jackson and Joe Thurston had punted their chances to start by this time in their big Spring Trainings.

Interestingly, it's less about Cruz than Repko and Ross, who are giving the Dodgers an excuse to delay Guzman.

2006-03-19 14:44:28
108.   ToyCannon
My brother a Grad of George Mason 33 years ago is doing flips. I'm going to have a tough time in the sweet 16. Gonzaga, my favorite basketball team is going against my wife's alma mater and my best friends alma mater is going against my brothers alma mater. I love this game.
2006-03-19 14:48:08
109.   Uncle Miltie
Jon, one other thing. I went back and read your post where you said that you think Saito is a longshot to make the team. He wasn't very good in Japan last year and he's about 35 years old. I wouldn't look too much into his good ST, but you never know with Ned and Grits making the personnel decisions. Osoria should be a lock with the way he's pitched this spring and with his ability to pitch multiple innings. Ned might feel that Broxton needs some more seasoning in the minors. I'm really hoping that Sele doesn't make the team.
2006-03-19 14:48:12
110.   Jon Weisman
107 - I take that last part back. If Cruz looked really bad and Guzman really good for the next two weeks, that might tantalize the Dodgers enough to make the move.
2006-03-19 14:50:46
111.   ToyCannon
I'd much rather see them return Kuo to the rotation in AAA then just become a lefty out of the bullpen in the majors. He not only added a slider but is throwing his curve again giving him 4 pitches which means he would be wasted in the bullpen. Sure he might be B Wagner but we don't need B Wagner. We can live with Hamulack and Wunsch to start the season.
Gagne looks like he will need more guile this year. Once the hitters realize that his fastball is not what it was, will they be able to hit the changeup? I say no, and that he will still get saves at a brisk pace but we will see very few 1,2,3, innings. JMO
2006-03-19 14:54:01
112.   Linkmeister
108 Connections are weird. I attended GMU for two summer sessions between junior/senior years in HS; can I claim semi-alum status?

A close friend called me to say that Bradley had won, and did I remember that his daughter graduated from Bradley?

I did actually attend Arizona for a few years, so I guess that connection is more legit.

2006-03-19 15:24:20
113.   dsfan
Sorry if you guys already checked it out and discussed it, but Madden's column in the NY Daily News today has Tracy rhapsodizing over LoDuca and decribing the difficulties the club faced after LoDuca was traded. Was unable to get the link.
2006-03-19 15:30:03
114.   MartinBillingsley31
I think ned got hamulack carter and baez for a reason (for the bullpen) i expect all of them to make the team joining gagne and brazoban in the pen leaving 1 spot open (since grady said the dodgers will carry 11 pitchers).
2 pitchers deserve to make the team, kuo and osoria, therefore i wouldn't mind if the dodgers traded brazoban.

Would the red sox like brazoban choi and cody ross, and could we get a good top prospect (a billingsley or guzman type) for them?

2006-03-19 15:36:29
115.   Steve
Was unable to get the link.

The Deity of your Choice smiles upon you.

2006-03-19 15:38:17
116.   Steve
I agree with MB that there is no reason to trade for someone like Hamulack then send him to AAA for someone like Wunsch. Since they are the same pitcher and all.

But as to the question, no. Brazoban Choi and Ross might not even get us David Wells.

2006-03-19 15:41:21
117.   MartinBillingsley31

Hamulack is out of options anyways.

Not even wells, wow.

2006-03-19 15:46:50
118.   Steve
They wanted Broxton for Wells.
2006-03-19 15:49:34
119.   D4P
While the Red Sox no longer have Dave Roberts for Flanders to trade for, they do have Alex Cora...
2006-03-19 15:56:31
120.   Steve
Cora's probably having a better spring than certain other of Flanders' signings, not to mention any particularly long or well-known names.
2006-03-19 16:15:27
121.   Andrew Shimmin
Now I'm drooling. You mean we could have Martinez, Izturis, AND Cora as reserve IFs? Make it so, Flanders; by any means necessary.
2006-03-19 16:26:43
122.   Andrew Shimmin
Was starting Lo Duca Tracy's idea? The Madden article ( ; sorry Steve) seems to indicate that it was, and I don't remember. I'm surprised at how well Krauter had done the year before. I remember dreading his ABs, but he had great years for a back up catcher, in LA. In fact, when the next round of unfounded juicer allegations comes around, I'm going to throw him out for consideration.
2006-03-19 16:28:33
123.   coachjpark
Is it even a possibility for Nomar to play left field?
2006-03-19 16:31:37
124.   Andrew Shimmin
Oops. It's Kreuter.
2006-03-19 16:33:02
125.   sanchez101
I think we're jumping ahead of ourselves when it comes to Colletti. He hasnt proven to be Tracy-stupid, yet. Sure he brought Ramon Martinez to camp, but every team brings someone like him. He hasnt done anything yet that really scares me. Sure, I dont see the point of Garciaparra and Tomko will be overpaid by about a million dollars, but those are relatively minor quibbles. He hasnt made a Konerko-Shaw type deal yet, nor has he commited significant playing time to Repko-like "talent". Im willing to give him a chance here to make some decent decisions.
2006-03-19 16:37:38
126.   Andrew Shimmin
Villanova wins. Rats. My new picks aren't looking much better than my old ones.
2006-03-19 16:45:03
127.   Steve
122 -- Yes. This is back when it didn't matter as much if a player looked short, or Korean. Then Moneyball came out, and it became a badge of honor to ignore talent, and rely on petty grudges and idiotic stereotypes to make personnel decisions.

123 -- Apparently not.

125 -- Who could be?

126 -- Arizona. Please.

2006-03-19 16:45:36
128.   Andrew Shimmin
125- He made two of the ten worst trades of the Winter, he made one of the ten best; he signed Furcal, he signed Tomko; it was the best of times, it was the blurst of times. (Stupid monkey)
2006-03-19 16:45:37
129.   Jon Weisman
I have an alma mater alive in the tournament. Who knew that would happen?
2006-03-19 16:47:02
130.   Bob Timmermann
The Cardinal are also alive and well in the distaff version of the NCAA tournament.
2006-03-19 16:50:15
131.   Bob Timmermann
But it is good to know that Jon has a quality Jesuit education.
2006-03-19 16:51:25
132.   natepurcell
danys baez looks like a tyrannosaurus when he pitches.
2006-03-19 16:51:57
133.   CanuckDodger
125 -- We have about ten MLB-ready bullpen arms in camp. That is making the trade with Tampa Bay for completely unnecessary middle relievers look dumber every day.
2006-03-19 17:06:33
134.   sanchez101
128. How much is Tomko worth, $2-2.5 million? I cant see how overpaying your 5th starter by 1% of your total payroll is such a terrible move. What exactly were the other options? Without Tomko, we would seriously be looking at Sele in the starting rotation, think about that. Not a good move, but not anything we're really going to regret.

133. Ten MLB-ready arms? Im I missing something? I dont love this deal either, but trading pitching prospects for major league talent isnt a bad thing. The last time the Dodgers traded a pitching prospect for a veteran reliever it worked out ok. Carter seems pointless to me, but Baez is basically Duaner Sanchez. I see those deals like this:

Baez, Carter, and Seo for Jackson, Tiffany, and Sanchez. Thats not a bad trade, and should Jackson and Tiffany falter (and lets face it, the odds are against both of them) this looks like a very nice deal.

I wish Ned couldve gotten more for Jackson and Tiffany, but there is plenty of upside in this deal for the dodgers.

2006-03-19 17:17:18
135.   Steve
There is no upside in that deal. That is the entire point. It is players that might have the chance of being useful for players that are not useful now nor ever will be.
2006-03-19 17:17:31
136.   Andrew Shimmin
134- Tomko is the fourth starter. Seo is going to sit most of April, so that Tomko can get all his starts. I reject the lumping together of the two pitchers trades because Flanders had already won. He got Seo and Hamulack, first. Then he gave some of his winnings back to the house, for no reason I can tell. So, if you average them out, it isn't horrible, but that's always what happens when you average a bi-polar distribution.
2006-03-19 17:19:47
137.   D4P
Speaking of Flanders, tonight's Simpsons features Rod and Tod in starring roles.
2006-03-19 17:21:56
138.   Uncle Miltie
134- I'll take Duaner Sanchez over Baez. Baez is also a rental. Trading 2 promising arms for a rental and a below average reliever isn't a good deal. The problem I have with the Tomko signing is not the money, rather the years. He's going to be blocking a prospect next year who will probably be able to out produce him.
2006-03-19 17:28:10
139.   sanchez101
135. The upside of that deal is that Tiffany becomes a middle reliever and Jackson fades into obscurity while Baez and Carter have solid seasons, leave via free agency and the Dodgers get a couple compensation picks that are used to replace Tiffany and Jackson. There are other worse possibilities, but whats more likely Carter and/or Baez having solid seasons or Jackson and/or Tiffany becoming solid starters. Carter, and inparticular, Baez are more than "not useful now nor ever will be".

136. That's exactly my point, Ned's moves have their faults, but even his worst moves arent disasters.

2006-03-19 17:31:49
140.   regfairfield
139 The math that I did shows that even if you only give Jackson and Tiffany a 10% chance of having three below average to average years, its still a bad deal.
2006-03-19 17:33:48
141.   sanchez101
138. PECOTA sees Sanchez putting up a 3.97 ERA, and Baez putting up 3.87 ERA. It sees Sanchez pitching a couple more innings. Given the variability of relievers from year to year, that's a wash.

At his salary, Tomko is far from untradeable. I'd rather error on the side of too many starters, even then, its not like he cant be moved to the bullpen.

2006-03-19 17:35:32
142.   Steve
The math that I did shows that even if you only give Jackson and Tiffany a 10% chance of having three below average to average years, its still a bad deal.

Correct. This is intuitive -- Tomko last year had a VORP of 20. One inning pitchers are not inherently valuable. Saying they are does not make it so.

2006-03-19 17:39:40
143.   natepurcell
re 138

i would take baez over sanchez if you didnt factor in any other variabls (cost, opportunity cost, etc).

sanchez is basically a roogy, his splits for lefties are horrid. baez gets lefies out at a far better clip.

baez vs lefties- 268BA 744ops against
sanchez vs lefties- 310BA 867ops against

2006-03-19 17:42:41
144.   sanchez101
140. Id would like to see that math. But their chances should be about 10% or worse. On Tiffany's comparable pitcher's list there is only two pitchers that hade anything approaching usefull careers; John Patterson and Juan Pizarro. Jackson's list isnt any better, his top two comparisons are Dewon Brazelton and Bubba Nelson and the list includes such luminaries as Joel Hanrahan, Tim Drew, Aaron Myette, and Salomon Torres.

If I had to identify the two most highly suspect young pitchers in the system, it would be Tiffany and Jackson.

2006-03-19 17:43:46
145.   natepurcell
gurnick reports that penny had a 20 min session with koufax on how to throw a curveball.
2006-03-19 17:44:33
146.   natepurcell
what are billingsleys comps?
2006-03-19 17:45:21
147.   thinkblue0

that sentence just put a hope in my step

2006-03-19 17:45:27
148.   Andrew Shimmin
If your point is, narrowly, that Colletti isn't awful, I'll concede it. There are much worse GMs. He hasn't even made enough moves that we can be even relatively sure whether he'll be a good or bad GM, much less to which degree of either. If you pile all his aquisitions on one side, and all his losses on the other, he comes out ahead, by about half the length of McCourt's new wallet.
2006-03-19 17:46:18
149.   Steve
Even if Jackson and Tiffany joined Greinke on the PGA Tour, that wouldn't make trading for middle relievers a good thing.
2006-03-19 17:46:55
150.   sanchez101
142. what does Tomko have to do with Jackson or Tiffany. Who said one inning pitchers are inherently valuable? Id say that a pitcher in his prime with 431.7 career inngins with a career 3.69 ERA can have value.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2006-03-19 17:49:20
151.   Steve
Not if he acquired those innings over the space of 800 games.
2006-03-19 17:53:58
152.   Andrew Shimmin
If Jackson and Tiffany were to join the PGA, I might be willing to watch golf on tv for the first time in my life.
2006-03-19 17:54:57
153.   Uncle Miltie
143- I am taking into account age, experience, and salary. I think Sanchez is going to improve. This year, Baez will probably be better, but longterm, I'd take Sanchez.

148- Colletti definitely isn't the worst, but I'd probably put him in the bottom of the middle of the pack. The Furcal contract was very creative and an excellent move. The Seo acquisition would have been fine had he not then signed Tomko and traded 2 top prospects for 2 rental relievers. The funny thing though is that Colletti might be the 2nd best GM in the division. That's pretty sad.

2006-03-19 17:56:02
154.   sanchez101
151. how about over the course of 284 games? Threw age 27 Baez has pitched 431.7 innings at a 3.69 ERA in 5 major league seasons. Gagne threw age 27 pitched 447.6 innings at a 3.50 ERA over 5 major league seasons. Both players came up as starters but found success as relievers. Also Baez had to deal with the DH in the AL while Gagne pitched his whole career in Dodger Stadium.

Make no mistake, Im not saying Baez was, or ever will be half the pitcher Gagne is, but I cant see how Baez's credentials make him "useless". You can say many things about Baez, he's overpaid, overrated, and probably unnecessary, but can be very usefull to a team that had major bullpen problems in 2005.

2006-03-19 18:01:03
155.   Steve
You can say many things about Baez, he's overpaid, overrated, and probably unnecessary

Since he is all of these things, I see no reason to further belabor the point.

2006-03-19 18:04:26
156.   sanchez101
153. We cant be comparing Colletti to some sort of "ideal GM". He's not going to be Billy Beane or Branch Ricky, but that shouldnt be the standard. Id say that so far, Colletti is comfortably above a "replacement level GM" (think Jim Bowden and Omar Minaya).

Thats all im trying to say. He didnt fire Paul Depodesta and he hasnt sacrificed the future. In fact, Colletti's biggest mistake to date has been the decision to work for Frank McCourt, who's actions deserve our derision much more than Colletti.

On a side note, I really hate Ned's voice. He sounds like he has a NY accent or something, but supposedly he grew up in Chicago? He doesnt sound like any Chicagoan Ive met.

2006-03-19 18:09:58
157.   sanchez101
155. Except that you claimed that he was "not useful now nor ever will be", which isnt really supported by any facts. If acquiring a somewhat overpaid, overrated, but solid reliever is the worste of Colletti's deals (which it is), then Colletti probably had one of the better offseasons.
2006-03-19 18:10:29
158.   King of the Hobos
147 You must realize first that Penny conceded that he can't properly grip it, as his hands aren't big enough
2006-03-19 18:12:26
159.   CanuckDodger
133 -- Gagne, Brazoban, Baez, Carter, Broxton, Osoria, Saito, Kuo, Wunsch, Hamulack, Beimel. Did I say ten MLB-ready bullpen arms? Sorry, I should have said ELEVEN MLB-ready bullpen arms.

The statement "trading pitching prospects for major league talent isn't a bad thing" is so vague it is meaningless. The term "pitching prospects" can apply to pitching talents ranging from great to garbage. "Major league talent" can be Albert Pujols, or it can be Christan Guzman. Unlike Steve, I am NOT against trading pitching prospects for a middle reliever or two depending on the players involved and the Dodgers' circumstances. During Evans' tenure, I was all for the Paul Shuey for prospects Ricardo Rodriguez and Francisco Cruceta trade, because I thought Rodriguez and Cruceta were very over-rated, and because we needed, at that time, help for the bullpen and had no young MLB-ready arms the like of Broxton, Kuo, and Osoria on our own farm who could have stepped up. I am against the Tampa Bay trade for two reasons: ONE, I believe Jackson and Tiffany are the real deal, rather than just pretenders like Rodriguez and Cruceta, and TWO, instead of being short on reliever talent like we were when we traded for Shuey, we are DROWNING in bullpen arms right now. Adding Baez and Carter to our potential reliever talent pool was like emptying a bottle of water into a swimming pool. In short, we paid too high a COST for negligible BENEFIT.

2006-03-19 18:12:26
160.   Steve
It's supported by the fact that he's a middle reliever. What more facts would one need? That's what I keep trying to say.
2006-03-19 18:20:31
161.   Steve
which isnt really supported by any facts

This is not true. It is supported by the fact that he is a middle reliever. There are several facts bound up with that categorical fact, and it is sufficient.

2006-03-19 18:20:48
162.   King of the Hobos
159 Beimel? Why not include Meadows on that list? Or Sele? Or Houlton?
2006-03-19 18:27:18
163.   Uncle Miltie
Adding Baez and Carter to our potential reliever talent pool was like emptying a bottle of water into a swimming pool. In short, we paid too high a COST for negligible BENEFIT.
Nice analogy, though I don't necessarily agree with it. I hated the deal, but Baez will likely be one of our best 3 relievers. He's not much of an upgrade over Sanchez, but is over guys like Brazoban and Broxton (in the short term).
2006-03-19 18:27:37
164.   sanchez101
159. Saito, Hamulack, and Beimel are MLB ready arms? Actually its 13; You forgot Aaron Sele and Brian Meadows. Its easy to see that there are many options if you assume there wont be any injuries. Gagne, Brazoban, Kuo, and Wunsch all have serious injury concerns comming into this year. Carter and Baez are relatively healthy. In case you missed all of 2005, that matters.

If you assume Jackson and Tiffany are the real deal, then ya, the deal is terrible. But that's a pretty dangerous assumtion. I think you have to work with the assumption that at least half of you pitching prospects are going to fall significantly short on expectations, and thats probably still being too optomisitc. What pitchers in the Dodgers' system, in your opinion, were the going to fall short of expectations? They cant all turn into good major league pitchers.

2006-03-19 18:28:24
165.   sanchez101
161. oh, ok
2006-03-19 18:29:58
166.   oldbear
At his salary, Tomko is far from untradeable

Do you remember Kaz Ishii? The Dodgers had to actually pay his salary so another team would take him. Its not the money its the years. But its more that Tomko (4.5), Lofton (3.85), and Mueller(4.5) could have bought 1 great player and filled the other two spots with cheap prospects.

he hasnt sacrificed the future
Trading Bradley was a very bad move for the future. In fact, I think its the worst trade the Dodgers have made in the last 20 years. .800+ OPS CF'er...making 3mils a year.. 28yrs old... and we trade him?

Also moving Joel Guzman off of SS was a terrible move for the future.

Colletti has built a team with limited upside and limited downside. But he did it with a 100+ mils payroll. So it has to be considered a net loss IMO.

2006-03-19 18:34:19
167.   Steve
I thought 160 was eaten by the God of Eminently Replaceable Middle Relief.
2006-03-19 18:35:46
168.   oldbear
while Baez and Carter have solid seasons, leave via free agency and the Dodgers get a couple compensation picks that are used to replace Tiffany and Jackson.

Offering Baez/Carter arbitration is about as risky as offering Steve Finley arbitration.
The Dodgers got stuck paying Shuey/Quantrill more than they were worth. I doubt they want to go down that road again. But maybe Colletti does? Benitez, LaTroy Hawkins, Jason Christianson, etc....

2006-03-19 18:38:22
169.   sanchez101
168. Carter, yes. But Baez is more than 10 years younger than Finley, and has a 40 save season under his belt. If he has a solid year in 2005, he'll definitly be looking for a multi-year deal. The Cubs and Giants are always looking for veteran relievers.
2006-03-19 18:39:13
170.   Uncle Miltie
Also moving Joel Guzman off of SS was a terrible move for the future.
No it wasn't. Furcal was signed to a 3 year deal. Guzman's path to the majors was not at SS.
2006-03-19 18:40:51
171.   sanchez101
166. I missed that, trading Bradley is the worst trade from the past 20 years? Is that a joke? Have you ever heard of Pedro Martinez, or Paul Konerko, or Carlos Perez? Ah, now those were stupid trades.
2006-03-19 18:43:59
172.   Steve
The trouble is not offering Baez arbitration. The trouble is offering Baez a 4 year, 30 million dollar contract to be our "closer."
2006-03-19 18:47:07
173.   D4P
You'll have to forgive Steve. He's still reeling from today's Bucknell upset.
2006-03-19 18:47:19
174.   sanchez101
Now that would be a stupid move, lets hope Kevin Malone didnt talk to Colletti when he visited vero beach.
2006-03-19 18:50:14
175.   MartinBillingsley31
The problem with the bradley trade is that we ended up with lofton.

Sorry, lofton is my hated offensive player this season, like izturis was in 2005 and roberts in 2004.

Can you tell i don't like slap hitters.

2006-03-19 18:52:27
176.   sanchez101
175. But they're so scuffy and lovable!
2006-03-19 18:57:26
177.   oldbear
No it wasn't. Furcal was signed to a 3 year deal. Guzman's path to the majors was not at SS

Furcal would be playing 2nd base in 2007. That is if I was the GM. I'd move Furcal over to 2nd the minute Guzman was ready at SS. I'd also have Guzman at Vegas playing SS all year this year.

2006-03-19 18:59:19
178.   MartinBillingsley31
Weakest link in the starting lineup = lofton
Weakest link in the starting rotation = tomko
Weakest link in the bullpen = take your pick carter hamulack brazoban (but don't know who all will be in the pen)
Weakest link on the bench = take your pick martinez robles repko ross alomar (but don't know who all will be there)
2006-03-19 19:03:28
179.   oldbear
Have you ever heard of Pedro Martinez, or Paul Konerko, or Carlos Perez?

Trading Bradley was worse bc Bradley was an established every day player. Konerko was just a prospect. Pedro was a middle reliever.

Actually, Sheffield for Brian Jordan/OP in a salary swap move was almost as bad as trading Milton Bradley.

But I'd still put the Bradley trade as the worst of the last 20 yrs.

When is the last time the Dodgers traded an everyday position player in their 20's, for only a AA minor leaguer? I'm not even mentioning AP either. He might turn out to be good too. But trading Bradley was a killer.

.800+ OPS CF' salary, in his prime... You dont trade those guys.

2006-03-19 19:03:59
180.   Andrew Shimmin
I thought Furcal was headed to CF? Or maybe that's dsfan's pet theory.
2006-03-19 19:05:21
181.   D4P
Since Furcal isn't that great of a hitter and since his value appears mostly to stem from his defense, why move him from SS?
2006-03-19 19:08:02
182.   Uncle Miltie
175- so you'd rather see Repko in CF? There really weren't any good center fielders available at an affordable price. Jose Cruz is such a bad defensive center fielder that we'd be getting almost negative value from him. Lofton is still an above average defender who can get on base at a decent clip. It's only a 1 year dea and if Lofton stinks it up, Ned can always call up Ethier. I didn't like the trade because Bradley is a solid all around player at a prime position.
2006-03-19 19:08:32
183.   MartinBillingsley31
Maximize the ops, high ops outfielders and corner infielders are a dime a dozen.

Therefore guzman a middle infielder (ss or 2b).

2006-03-19 19:09:44
184.   sanchez101
181. If you can believe Pedro was "just" a middle reliever (and according to Steve, completely and unrevokably worthless) and Konerko was "just" a prospect, then ya, moving Furcal to 2nd is a great idea.
2006-03-19 19:11:06
185.   MartinBillingsley31
so you'd rather see Repko in CF?


I was just saying i'd rather have bradley than lofton.

2006-03-19 19:12:01
186.   oldbear
Guzman has more value at SS than Furcal does. Thats why you'd move Furcal.

There's gonna be a huge drop off at 2nd base no matter what when Kent leaves. There's no one that could replace him. So why not move Furcal to 2nd (at least he's an average hitting 2nd basemen), and keep Guzman at SS (whom could give us a big value here).

I'd rather have Guzman/Furcal in the middle infield, than Furcal/Izturis in 2007.

2006-03-19 19:14:37
187.   Andrew Shimmin
Not irrevocably. Steve believes in redemption, by way of returning to the starting rotation.
2006-03-19 19:16:24
188.   sanchez101
186. If you can just move furcal to 2nd cant you move guzman to 2nd? Also, I dont think Furcal would be thrilled about moving to 2nd.

If Guzman can play SS, you dont sign Furcal.

2006-03-19 19:17:38
189.   sanchez101
187. Ok, Ill give him that.
2006-03-19 19:18:30
190.   Andrew Shimmin
186- If Guzman's glove was rough (which, by all accounts, it was at SS), why not, using your logic, move Guzman to 2B? That way you have the same players playing, but don't cancel out Furcal's biggest plus with Guzman's biggest minus? Then, while you're at that, why not move Guzman to a spot where his glove isn't garbage, and leave Furcal alone? It's not like we're over loaded with usefull OFs.
2006-03-19 19:20:19
191.   Steve
The Pedro Martinez trade is a cautionary tale regarding the pigeon-holing of pitchers into roles (particularly useless ones) and the danger of introducing irrational biases into the decision making process. Rather than contradict the point, it makes it.
2006-03-19 19:21:21
192.   oldbear
If you can just move furcal to 2nd cant you move guzman to 2nd

Thats true. I'd go for that, keeping Furcal at SS and Guzman at 2nd. Its really the same difference.

I was just thinking it'd be easier for Furcal to switch positions, than Guzman.

2006-03-19 19:21:22
193.   Andrew Shimmin
It's disappointing, seeing Guzman move, but there you go. Seeing him turned in to Alfonso Soriano would be more disappointing.
2006-03-19 19:23:48
194.   oldbear
It's not like we're over loaded with usefull OFs.

I dont think Guzman would be more usefull of OF'er, than what the team could find in the free agent market.

2006-03-19 19:26:00
195.   oldbear
Seeing him turned in to Alfonso Soriano would be more disappointing

Soriano is acceptable at 2nd base or SS though. He's not acceptable in the OF.

2006-03-19 19:26:48
196.   Uncle Miltie
188- how many 6'6 second baseman have you seen? Kent would play gold glove defense compared to Guzman at 2B. Guzman most likely would have been an average defender at SS at best. 3B wasn't really an option with LaRoche there. I expect Guzman to eventually end up in RF.
2006-03-19 19:28:13
197.   sanchez101
191. Luckily, Baez cant be pigeon-holed into middlerelieverhood, he's also a bonified closer, or something like that. Would the statement "It's supported by the fact that he's a middle reliever. What more facts would one need?" count as irrational bias?

The Pedro Martinez affair is a cautionary tale of listening to Tommy Lasorda. The Paul Konerko trade could be filed under this category as well.

2006-03-19 19:29:24
198.   MartinBillingsley31
If kent is gone in 2007, i'm with oldbear, furcal and guzman middle infield.
And go after 2 free agent high ops outfielders to go along with drew.
Hopefully laroche is ready for 3b.
And go after a high ops 1b free agent.

Trade loney, perez and ethier for a top starting pitcher that takes perez spot, billingsley takes tomko's spot, moving tomko to the pen.

Mueller is on the bench, cruz is on the bench.

And we start a dynasty.

2006-03-19 19:32:49
199.   sanchez101
198. Who are these free agent high ops outfielders in 2007? If the Cubs sign Lee to an extension, then what good 1B is available?
2006-03-19 19:33:01
200.   oldbear
Why is being tall and having long arms a detriment to playing middle infield? Wouldnt longer arms give you more range?

Kent isnt the quickest guy out there but he has good reflexis and good hands. I think Guzman could handle it.

How quick do you need to be to play 2nd?

And if Guzman's height doesnt stop him at SS, why would it at 2nd?

Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2006-03-19 19:35:34
201.   MartinBillingsley31

Then we sign a free agent top starting pitcher and trade for a high ops 1b.

2006-03-19 19:37:44
202.   oldbear
Who are these free agent high ops outfielders in 2007?

Andruw Jones, Adam Dunn, Jim Edmonds are coming up on free agency the next few years. Edmonds this year. AJ/AD i'm not sure but its either this year, or the year after.

2006-03-19 19:37:58
203.   Steve
No, because that is a rational bias, supported by reason. Calling middle relievers "closers" is the irrational bias.
2006-03-19 19:38:30
204.   Uncle Miltie
200- playing 2nd involves having quick feet, good hands, and good mobility. Guzman has decent hands, but his feet aren't great. He'd probably be worse than Alfonso Soriano at 2B. I remember a game last year where Guzman went over to 2B when a runner was attempting to steal 2B and he completely botched the play. That was playing SS.
2006-03-19 19:38:42
206.   slackfarmer
Anyone interested in the Sabertooth Dodgers league, we upgraded to Yahoo Sports Fantasy Baseball PLUS. The new League ID is "3944" and the password remans "scully". See for more info.
2006-03-19 19:39:52
207.   Andrew Shimmin
200- Their long arms are farther from the ground.

203 made me laugh.

2006-03-19 19:41:58
209.   MartinBillingsley31
The problem with my hopes is that ned "i love speed and defense" colletti is in charge.
Which means it ain't gonna happen, but i say get er done. LOL!
2006-03-19 19:44:50
213.   Andrew Shimmin
205, 208, 210- No need to go after him personally. In fact, doing that is not allowed, here.
2006-03-19 19:46:00
215.   oldbear
i love speed and defense" colletti is in charge.

I think its more of.. I love safe average veterans and chemistry

2006-03-19 19:46:40
217.   Andrew Shimmin
Oh. Now I get it. Why do all the posters come here to fight with oldbear?
2006-03-19 19:48:19
219.   oldbear
217. I think its the same one that was here last week. Jon needs IP banning technology. I'll ignore it if you guys can.
2006-03-19 19:49:01
221.   Steve
Why do all the posters come here to fight with oldbear?

Some questions are better left unasked.

2006-03-19 19:51:24
225.   MartinBillingsley31
Ned "i love safe average veterans chemistry speed and defense over high ops low whip high k/9 low hr/9" colletti.
2006-03-19 19:53:32
228.   MartinBillingsley31
We've been invaded by
2006-03-19 19:54:02
230.   Steve
Now if the argument is Ned Colletti, his moves range from good to ok to average to bleh to Baez Trade. I thought the Bradley trade was fine, given the inevitable discount -- a day or two before we were talking about getting Kirk Saarloos. And one can argue that everyone gets one Baez Trade. Overall, it's within a reasonable range of activity, and frankly, with Jim Tracy torturing baseball logic somewhere else, I would just like to enjoy us winning somewhere between 60 and 110 games.
2006-03-19 19:54:59
232.   Uncle Miltie
This is getting annoying with this random posters coming here and attacking oldbear for something that he did on a different board. Some of his suggestions/proposals are ridiculous, but he has never attacked anyone on this blog.
2006-03-19 19:57:20
235.   Andrew Shimmin
If we average 60 and 110, the result is 85. Not bad!
2006-03-19 19:57:22
236.   Steve
Never negotiate with terrorists.
2006-03-19 19:58:59
239.   oldbear
233. I'm just stating my opinion. Why dont you either stay here and talk baseball, or leave? Trades have to be evaluated at the time, not 15yrs later in hindsite.
2006-03-19 19:59:43
241.   jeepseats
bluetide - calm down1

I don't often agree with oldbear either, but he's entitled to his opinions, just like the rest of us.

2006-03-19 20:01:50
244.   Uncle Miltie
bluetide, you starting to sound like Bill Plaschke. While most here are pro sabermetrics, we are not all hard core numbers only people like oldbear. I think scouting is very important, so is defense. Clubhouse comes with winning. You don't pay guys for being good in the clubhouse like Colletti has done. I was in favor of Kent being traded, not because I think he's a cancer, but because I see a big drop in production from him and his defense is bottom of the barrel.
2006-03-19 20:02:06
245.   oldbear
Never negotiate with terrorists

IF we respond, the terrorists win.

2006-03-19 20:02:35
246.   MartinBillingsley31
I've been attacked several times on and I WAS THE ONE KICKED OFF THAT SITE not the people who attacked me.

Its like a mainstream media old baseball philosophy frat party there, everyone is cozy with everyone including the moderators untill a sabermetrics person pops up.

2006-03-19 20:04:32
249.   Steve
Well, to be fair, he's more literate than Bill Plaschke.
2006-03-19 20:06:24
252.   jeepseats
He sounds more like TJ Simers to me.
Show/Hide Comments 253-300
2006-03-19 20:07:55
255.   jeepseats
Let his anticipation kill him...suicide by internet?
2006-03-19 20:10:31
258.   mountainmover
Where do you all get your drugs, because I know you are all on the same thing...
2006-03-19 20:10:47
259.   oldbear
MB31.. I've been attacked several times on

I'm wondering why Thinkingblue chased you over here to continue to argue?

Its like a mainstream media old baseball philosophy frat party there, everyone is cozy with everyone

Which maybe explains why a few have shown up on this site... Perhaps not anyone over there is allowed to argue since they all think the same?

2006-03-19 20:12:00
261.   D4P
I can't tell for sure, but it looks as if the support for moving Furcal to 2B to accommodate Guzman at SS was effectively squelched. Just to make sure, imagine paying a 2B $13 million a year to OPS around .760 or so. That's pretty much all he would have to offer at 2B, where his arm strength would be virtually wasted.
2006-03-19 20:16:21
264.   Steve
Though Bill Plaschke more consistently uses apostrophes. We'll call it close.
2006-03-19 20:17:35
265.   D4P
Is Plaschke a period

(1) inside


(2) outside

the parentheses kinda guy?

2006-03-19 20:20:48
266.   Steve
One could put parentheses around the whole of Plaschke's pieces and call them truth in advertising.
2006-03-19 20:22:00
267.   Uncle Miltie
bluetide still hasn't used the word "indeed" so I'm starting to doubt that he's Plaschke. He also hasn't brought up heart and soul, Kenny Lofton's veteran leadership, or JD Ghost.
2006-03-19 20:22:31
268.   PennyJavy
Great, I come here to read some insightful opinions of fellow Dodger fans and it's being ruined by a poster's crush on oldbear
2006-03-19 20:23:25
269.   Steve
I doubt that anybody at is Plaschke, because while Plaschke does write in one sentence paragraphs, they are at least sentences.
2006-03-19 20:26:43
270.   Goozmani
I really hope your not the real "bluetide" from

Let OldBear be.. nobody said hes right all the time.

2006-03-19 20:39:06
271.   Jon Weisman
In case there's any doubt on this site, right or wrong is less important than behaving like a functioning member of society. Thanks to those of you who have shared this approach, and thanks for hanging in there while others try to undermine things.
2006-03-19 20:42:19
272.   dsfan
A minor league shortstop's capabilities are pretty easy to evaluate if you get to see the lad some 300-400 games, which the Doders have with Guzman.

They're not going to bash the kid publicy, of course, but it's pretty evident they believe Guzman wasn't the answer at shortstop.

That squares with accounts of outside scouts. This wasn't all that complicated. Blast the Dodgers for many things. Lord knows, they give one cause. But moving Joel Guzman off shortstop was a pretty easy choice. His footwork and actions don't translate there at the major league level. (There's even talk that the game is too fast for him at any infield position, save perhaps 1B)
His transition to MLB will be hard enough. As exciting as his power is, he's going to strike out a lot, probably every third at-bat. Adding shorstop travails to the load would've been ill-advised. Sticking in him in the big lot was the way to go.

Oh yes, Furcal, someone above mentioned my forecast there -- indeed I see him in CF in 2008.

2006-03-19 20:46:30
273.   D4P
indeed I see him in CF in 2008

2005 OPS

Rafael Furcal: .777
Dave Roberts: .784

2006-03-19 20:48:56
274.   dsfan
Games started by Roberts?
2006-03-19 20:50:31
275.   D4P
Don't know, but roughly 470 PAs.
2006-03-19 20:50:43
276.   Andrew Shimmin
272- I still don't get why. Are you predicting that something will go horribly wrong with him? Or just that CF will catch his fancy?
2006-03-19 21:00:31
277.   Uncle Miltie
Furcal was the best defensive SS in baseball last year. A lot of his value comes in his defense. I really doubt they'd move him to another position unless he has a serious elbow/arm injury.
2006-03-19 21:01:51
278.   D4P
I agree. He wasn't paid $39 million for his offense. (At least I hope he wasn't...)
2006-03-19 21:07:57
279.   dsfan

Dave Roberts started 101 games in CF last year.

In other words, he was in Club Med while the likes of Furcal were grinding out game after game. It was a career-best OPS for him -- a jolly good job, but he missed 48 percent of the potential starts.

2006-03-19 21:14:23
280.   dsfan

Hope I didn't imply that Furcal was paid $39 million for his offense.

And again, I said 2008 for CF.

In 2006-07, I expect Furcal to far exceed the average OPS for a NL shortstop (last year, it was .692) while also playing above-average defense and also exceeding the norm for leadoff OPS.

2006-03-19 21:16:27
281.   MartinBillingsley31
If i was in charge and i knew how to scout and draft, i'd FOCUS on drafting guys that are predicted to be high ops guys that play the middle infield and catcher.
High ops corner infielders and outfielders grow on trees, therefore you can get them from free agency and trades.
Obviously i wouldn't JUST draft middle infielders and catchers.

And for pitching i'd FOCUS on drafting guys who are predicted to keep the ball outta play (low whip, high k rate, low hr rate) and are predicted to be starters, if they don't turn out great then use them for the pen.

2006-03-19 21:19:22
282.   das411
Hey Jon, did Ken teach you how to do that fill-in-a-blank-comment-250 thing so we can minimize further? Not that this one is worth doing, it's actually a LOT of comments that were deleted this time, but I'm just wondering if that's something you know how to do.

...and maybe you guys can figure out what I did to 118 over on the Griddle last night :(

2006-03-19 21:19:29
283.   jeepseats
Isn't Guzman's transition from SS to LF (eventually RF?) basically similar to the path taken by Gary Sheffield?
2006-03-19 21:21:21
284.   Jon Weisman
282 - No, right now Ken handles all that.
2006-03-19 21:23:32
285.   Bob Timmermann
That comment 118 on the Griddle I believe had some connection to the third secret of Fatima.
2006-03-19 21:28:20
286.   Andrew Shimmin
I love Janice. There should be a Janice spin-off after the Sopranos wraps up.
2006-03-19 21:31:32
287.   Bob Timmermann
Better be careful there. I don't think we've gotten the all clear sign from Jon yet.
2006-03-19 21:31:34
288.   dsfan

Several factors, and again, I'm talking three years from now.

Not necessarily in order of importance: He could be a terrific CF, although, of course, he'd have to show he can judge a flyball (I apply the same disclaimer to Nomar going to LF, where I beleive he should be. One cannot assume a SS can judge a flyball, but it's not a crazy bet).

The need at CF could be greater for the LAD.

I also believe Furcal's "max-effort" throwing dynamics will start to take a toll in his late 20s. His arm strength is incredible, no question. But he's a gunner -- he struggles to make the low-strain flip a la Vizquel and some of the other SSs. I think all of the years of a 5-foot-10 SS(listed) gunning 120-foot throws will nudge him toward CF.
And yes, I realize it's unlikely and that 2008 will be a walk year. I also realize that his OPS differential, and in turn, value is greatest at SS, which I expect to hold up at least another year or two.

I do believe playing CF would be a bit less taxing, which could enhance his leadoff/offsensive energy as he gets near age 30. Grant him an .800 OPS in CF -- that would have been .023 above last year's NL/CF average. Not bad at all for a leadoff guy. And I wouldn't be surprise to see the NL/CF average OPS go down circa 2008. Andruw Jones, Edmonds and Griffey will be pretty far along.

2006-03-19 21:31:52
289.   Jon Weisman
No comments on Sopranos until I say so.
2006-03-19 21:38:33
290.   dsfan

Guzman's career path could track somewhat like Sheffield's. Sheffield was thought a more athletic infielder and in fact played a pretty good 3B for San Diego while challenging for the Triple Crown.

2006-03-19 21:39:33
291.   Andrew Shimmin
Sorry; thought I was general enough to get by. Lips are now zipped.
2006-03-19 21:46:04
292.   das411
285 - Um, or I think I hit back while it was uploading my post and that freaked out the Toaster. Whatever you say though Bob.

290 - So Guzman is the next Miggy Cabrera? Nate may have something to say about this!

2006-03-19 21:47:55
293.   Bob Timmermann

Talk like that can get you killed.

2006-03-19 21:59:40
294.   Jon Weisman
Game on.

Tonight's episode of "The Sopranos" was derivative, however unintentionally, from the "Frank Furillo gets shot" episode of "Hill Street Blues." And I felt a certain amount of David Chase's "Northern Exposure" background in it as well. But it was still good.

2006-03-19 22:03:41
295.   Bob Timmermann
Although I thought the story was strangely predictable, I did think that Edie Falco was very good in this episode.
2006-03-19 22:13:25
296.   dsfan

I'd couch that one to "Furcal was one of the best defensive shorstops in baseball."

Major league personnel were very keen on Adam Everett. The NL Gold Glover was Vizquel.

As ranked by Dewan's The Fielding Bible, which I recommend, it was Everett, Wilson, Furcal in 2005; over the last three years, Everett, Wilson, Rollins and Furcal.

Dewan says of Everett, "Quite simply the best shortstop in baseball (defensively)." In the same book, Bill James makes a pretty compelling case for Everett (that one, vis a vis Jeter).

2006-03-19 22:34:29
297.   Bob Timmermann
Why do the comment numbers read (262) at top and we're at 297 now?
2006-03-19 22:43:07
298.   Jon Weisman
That reflects how many comments we had to delete from one poster.
2006-03-19 23:00:44
299.   Bob Timmermann
So those were the posts made by Kevin Finnerty?
2006-03-19 23:01:52
300.   Andrew Shimmin
Whew. I thought Janice was going to do something important that I would have, unknowingly blown. But her only appearence was half way through. And it rocked. I'd watch Big Love if they found a way to write her in to it.
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2006-03-19 23:06:35
301.   GoBears
295 Yeah, the group of folks I was watching agreed that Edie just won herself another Emmy with tonight's episode.

So now we see the rapid descent of AJ? As every character in Star Wars said at one time or another, "I've got a bad feeling about this."

I also think this Vito fellah is gonna be a problem. Most likely for Meadow's husband, once he quits dental school.

2006-03-19 23:10:24
302.   Andrew Shimmin
299- Probably not. He bore a striking resemblence to the bore who dropped by last week to be a pain in the neck. Oldbear is, evidently, like the equivalent of a war criminal.
2006-03-19 23:50:55
303.   GoBears
Yeah, the group of folks with whom I was watching..

Feh. Too much lasagna and wine.

2006-03-20 00:40:47
304.   alexx
I'm really worried about Yhency Brazoban. I think it might be better for him to go to the minors to work on those new pitches he has been experimenting with. I'm not basing my worry on his spring training stats, just the fact that he wasn't very good last year.
2006-03-20 00:45:30
305.   natepurcell
damnit, i missed the the people again!

last time they came, i came on here too late and all the nasty comments i wanted to read were deleted.

well this isnt my fault, i blame LAX and southwest for delaying my flight for 3 hours.

2006-03-20 01:17:41
306.   GoBears
305. I missed them too. Again. And I'm quite thankful. I have enough annoying crap in my life -- I don't need my Dodger refuge to join the list. Assuming that the only deleted comments were those by the invaders, I'd like to complement my fellow regulars for responding with such good humor and calm.
2006-03-20 07:45:52
307.   Bob Timmermann
No, we formed a mob and carried torches and pitchforks instead. Icaros could not find a pitchfork and used a garden hoe.
2006-03-20 08:17:20
308.   Marty
Where have all the comments gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the comments gone?
Long time ago
2006-03-20 10:09:59
309.   Sushirabbit
I missed 'em, but I didn't miss 'em.
2006-03-20 10:14:04
310.   underdog
Today the Dodgers will play the Washington Nationals in an exhibition game.

...This is a recording. >beep!<

(Feels like deja vu all over again to me, anyway...)

Btw, I'm a little worried about Brazoban, too, though the Dodgers don't seem to be - and I'm certainly not very worried about their bullpen this year.

2006-03-20 10:23:02
311.   GoBears
So, the BoSox just picked up Wily Mo Pena for Bronson Arroyo. Seems like a good deal for Boston - Pena should mash in Fenway. This also probably means that they'll keep Wells (or at least makes it more likely) and might not be interested in Choi. Or not. If I were Epstein, I'd still go after Choi.

In fact, Colletti has said he's looking for a veteran OFer. Maybe Pena for Choi is in the works?

2006-03-20 10:31:09
312.   blue22
311 - Wise decision or not, didn't the Sox pick Snow over Choi for their lefty 1B option?

I think that's a good deal for Boston (well, how about a good risk for Boston) since Arroyo is extremely over-hyped. Arroyo could challenge Milton for the league-lead in HR's given up based on his G:F ratio.

Pena is no good, but will give a decent RH-compliment to Nixon.

2006-03-20 10:31:47
313.   MartinBillingsley31
I'm worried about the whole bullpen except gagne baez and if kuo makes the team.

A good starting offense combined with good starting pitching, in my opinion make middle relief for the most part irrelevant.

But in my opinion we don't have a good enough starting offense nor good enough starting pitching.

If you consistantly score 6 runs and your starting pitching consistantly gives up 3 runs, or 5 and 2, or 7 and 4, you can consistantly go from your starting pitcher to your setup man then your closer.

Alot of dodger leads are going to be blown in middle relief this season in my opinion, assuming any of brazoban carter hamulack wunsch houlton sele saito beimel make up middle relief.

2006-03-20 10:44:12
314.   Jon Weisman
I don't see our middle relief as being below average. It'll blow some leads, but that happens. I would certainly hate for the Dodgers to have invested more toward the middle relievers.

When you look at the team, there are weaknesses, and so on a given day you may see the middle relievers look bad. But singling out the middle relief as a problem is almost beside the point. It's about where it should be.

2006-03-20 10:49:02
315.   blue22
assuming any of brazoban carter hamulack wunsch houlton sele saito beimel make up middle relief

Jon Broxton? He could be very key for this pen.

Gagne, Baez, Broxton, and Kuo make up 4 very nice power arms. The rest is filler, and probably won't pitch with a lead most times.

2006-03-20 10:52:51
316.   MartinBillingsley31

Jon Broxton? He could be very key for this pen.

Bingo, and i'm all for broxton in the pen.

2006-03-20 10:59:17
317.   Steve
Lost in all this Pena talk is that the Reds just made Scott Hatteberg their starting first baseman. Yikes.
2006-03-20 11:00:31
318.   MartinBillingsley31

I would certainly hate for the Dodgers to have invested more toward the middle relievers.

I agree.

Invest in starting offense and starting pitching and you make middle relief for the most part irrelevant.
That's why i can't stand lofton mueller and tomko.
And i know the free agent market was thin, so i'm not necessarily saying we could have gotten better players than those 3 guys.
Just pointing out what i think are the weakest links that will contribute to the middle relief playing a role.

2006-03-20 11:09:36
319.   blue22
317 - Too bad Cincy waited so long. They missed their chance to reacquire Juan Encarnacion for the OF.

It does open up another possible destination for Choi...

2006-03-20 11:11:37
320.   thinkblue0

I disagree on Mueller. He'll put up solid numbers throughout the year..won't win a batting title again but should still be solid.

I'm holding out judgment on the whole Tomko thing until I see him pitch on a regular basis.

Completely agree on Lofton. That signing doesn't make much sense to me....I mean, look at his previous years before last year. It's not a pretty thing to look at it. It seems like a lot of people are expecting a Lofton that plays 115 games and hits .310. I don't know why I'm so low on him, but it honestly wouldn't shock me if he hits .270. Taking his bat out of the lineup, putting Nomar in LF, and putting Choi at first just seems like a much better option. But, that has been discussed ad naseum and I don't want to open up that Pandora's Box again....

2006-03-20 11:19:20
321.   MartinBillingsley31

I disagree on Mueller. He'll put up solid numbers throughout the year..won't win a batting title again but should still be solid.

Out of the 3 guys i mentioned above (lofton mueller tomko), mueller is the one i have the LEAST problem with.

Weakest link starting offense = lofton
Weakest link starting pitching = tomko

2006-03-20 11:19:56
322.   underdog
I've said it before and I'll say it again, those of you against Mueller will turn around fairly early into the season (assuming he doesn't get hurt). I was anti-Tomko but he's looked very good this spring and I'm ready to change my tune there. Not sure what to say about Lofton except that I'm glad we now have some more OF depth in the minors.

Back to the bullpen, I see it as above average - Gagne, Baez (no relation to Joan), Kuo, Broxton (maybe), don't forget Lance Carter who I think was the quiet steal in that deal, and Houlton (maybe) in long relief, I'll put that bullpen up against just about any other team's. Some good pitchers are going to be on the outside looking in to start the season...

As for the Reds and Choi, I hope not, for his sake as much as ours (and especially not if they're offering pitching!)

2006-03-20 11:32:53
323.   blue22
Barring an injury to Nomar (or Ledee, I guess), Choi looks to be released by Opening Day. Loney is the 1B at Vegas, so where does Choi go? Anything we get for him now would be gravy. I just don't see a fit for him on the roster.

As for the bullpen, I'd like to see Sele and Houlton pitching every 5th day in Vegas as injury replacements. The bullpen should be (IMO):

Gagne, Baez, Carter, Kuo, Broxton, Braz, and Hamulack/Wunsch.

If its a 6-man pen, Broxton looks to be the one to start the season in the minors.

2006-03-20 11:43:17
324.   MartinBillingsley31
The thing that i have noticed about bomko's stats is that his hr/9 rate has gone down in 2004 and 2005 from his hr/9 rate from previous seasons, i don't know if park factors contributed.

Is san francisco harder to hit hr's than st louis, san diego, seattle, cincinnati?

2006-03-20 12:00:39
325.   Jon Weisman
In case anyone cares to be reminded, Choi is guaranteed $118,852 if cut before the final two weeks of Spring Traning (that deadline seems to have passed), guaranteed of $178,278 if cut during final two weeks of Spring Training, and guaranteed $725,000 if on the Opening Day roster.
2006-03-20 12:09:18
326.   Andrew Shimmin
306- Practice, practice, practice.

317- You don't think they leave Dunn at 1B and bump Freel up to starting LF? That's what I'd do, as if that meant anything. What are the Sox going to do with Pena? Move Nixon to DH and Ortiz to 1B? Nixon and Pena at the corners, and many Manny to DH? It's a nice problem to have, I guess, but still. . .

2006-03-20 12:23:19
327.   blue22
325 - Does he have minor-league options (I thought so, based on earlier conversations)? If so, would starting in the minors amount to being "cut"?
2006-03-20 12:26:50
328.   Steve
326 -- I think that decision has already been made. Apparently, it was the "key to the deal."

2006-03-20 13:04:30
329.   Andrew Shimmin
Wow. So they got rid of Casey, but got worse at 1B, anyway. The bit about their defense improving by moving Dunn back to LF is pretty funny.

The article answered my other question. Pena and Nixon look to be platoon partners.

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