Baseball Toaster Dodger Thoughts
Jon Weisman's outlet
for dealing psychologically
with the Los Angeles Dodgers
and baseball.
Frozen Toast
Google Search
Dodger Thoughts

02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

09  08  07 
About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Choi Waived, Claimed by Boston
2006-03-24 13:26
by Jon Weisman

The Dodgers have waived first baseman Hee-Seop Choi and Boston has claimed him, according to Dodger public relations director Josh Rawitch. Updates to follow.

Update: Ken Gurnick's story on

Update 2: Boston general manager Theo Epstein is quoted in the Associated Press story:

"We have liked Choi for a long time and view this as an opportunity to acquire him when his value is down a bit," Boston general manager Theo Epstein said. "We like his power, his patience and his hands at first base. Choi provides depth for us at first base and in a way third base as well, considering Kevin Youkilis' ability to play both positions."

Mike Lowell, who won a Gold Glove at third base last year with Florida, is Boston's starter but is coming off a poor season at the plate.

"We'll see how our roster shakes out, but Choi does have minor league options if we want him to get every day at-bats in Triple-A for a period of time," Epstein said.

Epstein recognizes that despite some criticism of Choi's range, he has defensive value.

Much will be made of how many teams passed on the chance to claim Choi on waivers. That doesn't do much for me but extend the mystery of how a 27-year-old with above-average hitting ability (107 career adjusted OPS, when the league average is 100) could be so devalued.

To so many people, it never mattered to Choi how often he did things right. With Choi, somehow, the numbers didn't mean anything. His home runs didn't count - even though most of his home runs with the Dodgers came in close games. His walks were a sign of weakness. Healthier and less expensive, he flat-out outhit Nomar Garciaparra the past two seasons when park and league factors are accounted for, both in cumulative stats and rate stats, but only a minority was willing to even consider what that might mean.

Perhaps most difficult to comprehend were the chants of "Hee Seop Choi" at the ballpark. They were heard throughout the season. Could they have possibly sustained themselves if they weren't greeted frequently enough with the reward of Choi reaching base? Believe me, the current generation of Dodger fans is not a patient bunch.

Acquired cheaply for the first time in his career, perhaps Choi will no longer struggle with the wind of favorites he replaced harsh against his face.

Comments (337)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2006-03-24 13:34:53
1.   D4P
Wow. We couldn't even at least have gotten Alex Cora back...?
2006-03-24 13:35:10
2.   capdodger
Praise be to Choi! Now the endless arguments can end.
2006-03-24 13:36:31
3.   jasonungar05
First Ortiz, now Choi. This makes me sick but at the same time at least now dodger fans on this site and others wont be as divided.
2006-03-24 13:37:02
4.   natepurcell
theo is thinking the same thing- ortiz 2.0

can he catch lightening in a bottle twice?

2006-03-24 13:37:50
5.   blue22
Can LA retract waivers and work a trade?

It does seem weird that even with options, he would be outright released. Of course, his "options" would be to go play back up 1B at Vegas, or start at AA Jax.

2006-03-24 13:38:22
6.   natepurcell
IMO, boston is one of the best places for choi to go. I think he can beat out JT snow for the 1b job.
2006-03-24 13:39:44
7.   blue22
6 - Who's the RH in the platoon - Youkilis?
2006-03-24 13:41:09
8.   natepurcell
youkillis assuming lowell isnt absurdly terrible at 3b.
2006-03-24 13:42:28
9.   blue22
Should be fun to track Nomar vs. Choi/Youkilis this year.

The Choi debate rages on!

2006-03-24 13:43:18
10.   Steve
Well, one door closes, maybe Aybar's door opens.
2006-03-24 13:44:14
11.   Nick Iyengar
I think Choi will do really well in Boston if he can play every day instead of J.T. Snow. To me, his biggest problem in L.A. was that he wasn't secure in his starting job (even when he was actually starting), and that probably led him to press and thus to suffer the inconsistency we've seen. The power is there, as he has made obvious during various stretches. He just needs to know that he's the man at first base, and he'll flourish.

It's a paradox, though; to earn a solid starting job he's got to play well, but I don't think he'll play up to his potential unless he's handed a starting spot. My guess is that he gets about as many at-bats as he did in 2005, and puts up similar numbers.

2006-03-24 13:45:45
12.   King of the Hobos
Great news. The Choi debates can come to an end, and Choi has an excellent chance to get some playing time. This works out great for everyone, save the Dodgers, who just gave up a cheap power hitter for nothing
2006-03-24 13:46:16
13.   Suffering Bruin
I'm gonna need something to do this season...
2006-03-24 13:48:16
14.   King of the Hobos
10 Martinez figures to get Choi's roster spot, and thus he would get that 25th spot. He figures to be fighting Wunsch, Sele, and Meadows for 40-man spot...
2006-03-24 13:49:14
15.   Bob Timmermann

Sorry, I was just mimicking the sound of the often-derided "Doomsday Thrush" that is indigenous to the San Gabriel Valley.

The whole Choi situation transcends insightful opinions. It's the third rail of Dodger Thoughts.

2006-03-24 13:49:47
16.   blue22
14 - What of Oscar Robles then? Has he made the team?
2006-03-24 13:52:11
17.   dagwich
Go Hee Seop! It warms the heart to think that he might thrive with the team McCourt really wants to own.

My cousin in Newton, Mass wants to treat me to a game in Fenway this summer, so it would be great to see HSC crush the ball that day.

2006-03-24 13:52:52
18.   alexx
Poor Choi. I hope he hits 30 homers this season.
2006-03-24 13:53:12
19.   slackfarmer
I'm happy for Choi that he escapes the Dodger blues and will hopefully get a chance to play more. Unfortunately Fenway is hard on lefty power hitters. According to Bill James, the lefty homerun rate for Fenway over the past three years has been 82 (compared to a normalized 100 and Dodger Stadium at 107).
2006-03-24 13:53:37
20.   alexx
Poor in that he has to move to a new city I mean.
2006-03-24 13:54:45
21.   capdodger
20 - Housing is expensive in Boston, too.
2006-03-24 13:56:42
22.   Steve
14 -- That would be a bad sign of things to come.
2006-03-24 13:56:57
23.   bluetahoe

Yahoo! This is your celebration
Yahoo! This is your celebration

Celebrate good times, come on! (Let's celebrate)
Celebrate good times, come on! (Let's celebrate)

There's a party goin' on right here
A celebration to last throughout the years
So bring your good times, and your laughter too
We gonna celebrate your party with you

Come on now

Let's all celebrate and have a good time
We gonna celebrate and have a good time

It's time to come together
It's up to you, what's your pleasure

Everyone around the world
Come on!

Yahoo! It's a celebration

Celebrate good times, come on!
It's a celebration
Celebrate good times, come on!
Let's celebrate

We're gonna have a good time tonight
Let's celebrate, it's all right
We're gonna have a good time tonight
Let's celebrate, it's all right


We're gonna have a good time tonight (Ce-le-bra-tion)
Let's celebrate, it's all right
We're gonna have a good time tonight (Ce-le-bra-tion)
Let's celebrate, it's all right


Celebrate good times, come on! (Let's celebrate)
Celebrate good times, come on!
It's a celebration!
Celebrate good times, come on! (Let's celebrate)

2006-03-24 13:58:00
24.   Steve
Cut and paste obviously makes the task of spelling easier.
2006-03-24 13:59:33
25.   Uncle Miltie
This is great news for Choi, bad news for the Dodgers. I'd expect an announcement to come soon that Ramon Martinez has made the team.
2006-03-24 13:59:37
26.   Eric L
23 Interestingly enough, Bob was both insightful and a bit of a soothsayer in his comments 15.
2006-03-24 14:01:15
27.   MartinBillingsley31
Our bench got weaker.

The debate ends tho.

2006-03-24 14:01:27
28.   Penarol1916
All I know, is I am glad that I'm going to be on vacation for the next week so I don't have to witness the idiocy of some posters. And now I'm off to Minneapolis to watch Yannick Noah's son get crushed by a real team.
2006-03-24 14:01:37
29.   Steve
I wouldn't have chosen the word "transcend"
2006-03-24 14:02:37
30.   screwballin
Glad to see he's gonna get a chance finally. Just give him a year and if he sucks, I'll be the first to say I was wrong about him.

With Lowell looking pretty awful by some reports, he should actually get some PT.

2006-03-24 14:03:11
31.   blue22
27 - Martinez and Robles looks redundant. Isn't there anyone else?
2006-03-24 14:03:36
32.   Steve
We don't have it so bad. Wayne Krivsky claims that this is going to be Eric Milton's comeback year. It would be hard for him to be wrong, in some sense.
2006-03-24 14:05:50
33.   Uncle Miltie
Choi proved last year that he couldn't get down clutch sacrifice bunts, therefore Ned and Grits had no use for him.
2006-03-24 14:05:59
34.   capdodger
From the other side:
Sons of Sam Horn is confused. They don't understand why the Dodgers just handed them someone with Ortiz-like comps, a teeny salary, and an option left. They think the Sox just fleeced the Dodgers.
2006-03-24 14:08:34
35.   trainwreck
We could not even trade him for a prospect? Flanders, you just continue to regress.
2006-03-24 14:09:47
36.   screwballin
34 They think the Sox just fleeced the Dodgers.

Actually, I think the DODGERS just fleeced the Dodgers. And they're dancing to old disco songs in celebration.

2006-03-24 14:09:57
37.   slackfarmer
34 "They think the Sox just fleeced the Dodgers."

They did.

2006-03-24 14:10:50
38.   Steve
It shouldn't be forgotten who fleeced the Dodgers here.

Jim Tracy fleeced the Dodgers here.

2006-03-24 14:11:15
39.   Mr Customer
That's pretty high on the "most predictable" list. In a way, this sort of congeals some of the identity issues that both the Dodgers and the Sox have been experiencing this year.
2006-03-24 14:12:06
40.   King of the Hobos
35 Choi made it all the way to Boston on waivers, I'm guessing he wasn't desired by many teams. And everyone knew this was going to happen, so why bother giving up something for Choi?
2006-03-24 14:16:15
41.   slackfarmer
40 Hey Hobo, are you still planning to play fantasy baseball in the Sabertooth Dodger II league this season? We upgraded to fantasy PLUS. The new league ID is 3944 and the password is scully. You can log on here:
2006-03-24 14:16:45
42.   Joe
Red Sox fanatic AND loyal DT reader....I couldn't be more estatic!
2006-03-24 14:19:10
43.   DodgerHobbit
If Nomar gets hurt this year, Saenz is going to collapse into a puddle of goo under the workload. How much are we paying him again vs. the 750k to Choi?
2006-03-24 14:19:22
44.   slackfarmer
Rotoworld now reporting the same thing. Guess it's official. They think he will be sent down to AAA.
2006-03-24 14:20:15
45.   Marty
How does the waiver order go? How many teams passed before Boston?
2006-03-24 14:20:41
46.   jasonungar05
Well now the only hope for some power is a trade or Guzman to make it over Ramon or Robles. Beyond Drew and Kent I don't see much power.
2006-03-24 14:20:49
47.   sanchez101
Im kinda' pissed, but this was a long time comming, so its not so bad. (Although, if a dominant offensive team like the Red Sox has room for Choi, why couldnt the Dodgers find a place for him) Im actually happy for Hee Seop, it really looked like he was way to tentative at the plate wasnt taking healthy hacks because people like Jim Tracy had been trying to get him to shorten his swing and go the other way. His story is earily similar to David Ortiz'. At least now he's going to play for a team that wont make him swing like a little bitch. Hee Seop has a better chance in Boston than LA, and nothing was going to change that.

Good luck Hee Seop!

2006-03-24 14:22:06
48.   jasonungar05
Hobbit- they can move to Kent to first and play Izzy at 2nd

and check the payroll worksheet on the sidebar

2006-03-24 14:23:41
49.   Screwgie
I guess one game was all Grittletti need to complete an evaluation and make a decision.

So be it.

Let's hope Nomar stays healthy, Saenz doesn't regress, and Cruz puts up some good numbers in left.

All possible, but none likely.

2006-03-24 14:24:07
50.   blue22
43 - James Loney (aka the guy that will help us all forget Choi)!
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2006-03-24 14:25:03
51.   D4P
At least now he's going to play for a team that wont make him swing like a little bitch.


2006-03-24 14:27:56
52.   Steve
50 -- I think that's right. That decision was basically made with the Nomar band-aid, it seems to me. It's absurd for Martinez to make the team over Choi, but that's actually not saying much, since it is absurd for Martinez to make the team.
2006-03-24 14:28:34
53.   natepurcell
At least now he's going to play for a team that wont make him swing like a little bitch.

DT post of the day! hahaha.

2006-03-24 14:28:48
54.   tjshere
Despite the bad news, 24 had me laughing my head off.
2006-03-24 14:29:32
55.   thinkingblue
Somewhere, I see oldbear weeping...
2006-03-24 14:31:13
56.   bigcpa
47 I agree. It's extremely telling that the best offense in the majors, and envy of McCourt's eye, would see value in Choi. The downside is no chance for Choi to beat up the Pirates anytime soon.

It's great to hear stuff like this on the SOSH board:
"I was hoping the Sox would trade for him, picking him up for nothing is fantastic."

2006-03-24 14:32:25
57.   Steve
Now, we're all weeping, but not for the reason one might expect.
2006-03-24 14:32:57
58.   natepurcell
Somewhere, I see oldbear weeping...

honestly, you are obessesed with him. everytime you post here, you make a reference to him.

2006-03-24 14:34:00
59.   thinkingblue
But for this news... WOOHOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For both the dodgers and Choi, this is awsome news!! Choi had no role on this team, and for Choi, he has a chance to play.

Also, the reason the dodgers got no value, no team was actually gonna make a trade for him, they new he wasn't making the roster. I mean, it was sad, he preformed so badly in the WBC, he didn't even make the dodgers think about putting him on the roster.

2006-03-24 14:34:32
60.   regfairfield
Unless Loney quickly proves he's not just an Erstad clone, we're going to really be hurt by this move by 2007, or even this year in the likely scenario that Nomar goes down.
2006-03-24 14:35:40
61.   thinkingblue

The BoSox also saw value in Alex Cora.

2006-03-24 14:35:55
62.   bhsportsguy
Official Press Release From the Boston Red Sox

Red Sox claim first baseman Hee-Seop Choi off waivers from Los Angeles
03/24/2006 4:44 PM ET
Boston Red Sox Press Release

FORT MYERS, Fla. -- The Boston Red Sox today claimed first baseman Hee-Seop Choi off waivers from the Los Angeles Dodgers. Executive Vice President/General Manager Theo Epstein made the announcement from the club's Spring Training home in Fort Myers, FL.

You wonder if Theo had seriously taken the GM job that was offered to him, who would be on this roster today.

2006-03-24 14:36:38
63.   Eric L
59 You know, I would say that if his handful of ABs made the Dodgers cut him AND no other teams wanted him, well....

I would rather hear stuff about holes in his swing and magical fairies.

2006-03-24 14:36:58
64.   Steve
I really think we should dial back on the Erstad comparisons. Erstad is quite the class unto himself.
2006-03-24 14:37:23
65.   thinkingblue

Why? We have Nomar, Saenz, Martinez can play 1st, and even Kent can as well.

2006-03-24 14:37:44
66.   Marty
Most of the people over at Sam Horn are positive over his defense too. Whereas some of our more orthographically-challenged people here seem to think he played barehanded.
2006-03-24 14:37:51
67.   bhsportsguy
sorry for the "seriously taken" phrase and no I am not a valley girl....
2006-03-24 14:38:25
68.   Steve
We're gushing tears now.
2006-03-24 14:38:25
69.   regfairfield
Well, I would have said Mientkiewitz, but as the last part of my sentence shows you, I can't spell it.
2006-03-24 14:38:45
70.   Eric L
66 No Marty..

Silly you, he played with iron gloves on his hands. And he told children there was no Santa Claus.

2006-03-24 14:38:56
71.   DXMachina
44. "They think he will be sent down to AAA."

If he does wind up in AAA, I get to see him opening weekend in Pawtucket.

2006-03-24 14:39:14
72.   regfairfield
65 And how many of those players will be on the team in 2007?
2006-03-24 14:40:15
73.   MartinBillingsley31

Why? We have Nomar, Saenz, Martinez can play 1st, and even Kent can as well.

You just don't get it.
Saenz cannot play everyday or anywhere near everyday.
Choi > martinez
Choi > izturis or whoever you put at 2b when moving kent to 1b.

2006-03-24 14:41:04
74.   Steve
2006-03-24 14:41:18
75.   bhsportsguy
Okay Jon - I am want to be first in line for "The Best of Dodger Thoughts, The Chronicles of Hee Sop Choi" edition with the foreword by Tony Jackson and closing comments by Plashke.
2006-03-24 14:42:30
76.   natepurcell
nothing's better then one last massive choi debate to get it out of our system.

its like when you break up with a girlfriend and you have that one last goodbye "sleepover".

2006-03-24 14:43:34
77.   Eric L
75 Wouldn't the book have holes in it, making it hard to read?
2006-03-24 14:43:52
78.   jasonungar05
75 set to the words and music of the BlueTahoe Group
2006-03-24 14:45:14
79.   bigcpa
65 The comment was about 2007 in which case Saenz is the only 1b signed.

59 Honestly no one is evaluating players based on their performance in the WBC. Do you think the Rangers are rethinking extending Mark Teixeira right now?

2006-03-24 14:47:06
80.   Steve
foreword by Tony Jackson

Cut and paste will cut down on his spelling errors too.

2006-03-24 14:47:37
81.   PennyJavy
From Ken Gurnick's report "Hee-Seop Choi, the poster boy for "Moneyball" aficionados but a disappointmentin his days as a Dodger" lol wow.
2006-03-24 14:51:37
82.   King of the Hobos
Choi doesn't sound particularly disappointed

"Last year and this year, big difference," said Choi, "Last year, I play every day at first base. This year, backup and pinch-hitter. I want to play a lot. The Dodgers have a lot of good players. I got no chance here -- more chance in Boston.

"I feel shock, a little bit sad. I like this team, but I have to play. I [had] fun here. I have good memories of [the] Dodgers, one week, four games, seven home runs, grand slam. But they have a lot of infielders, a lot of good players. At my age, 27, I want to play more, not backup and pinch-hit."

2006-03-24 14:52:41
83.   Steve
Last year, I play every day at first base.

Who did he play for?

2006-03-24 14:59:17
84.   bigcpa
It's been noted before, but why 11 days before we sign Nomar to play 1b, do we extend 35-yr-old Saenz for 2 years at $2M+? At that time it didn't appear to be a choice between Saenz and Choi. Now I can't fathom how Saenz is a more valuable commodity than Choi, especially in 2007. Just a shame.
2006-03-24 15:01:02
85.   the OZ
If I am remembering waiver rules correctly for this case (there are different types of waivers), National League teams would have first crack at the Chopper before any AL teams that would have made a claim. As such, given the Sox W-L record last season it's difficult to imagine that any other teams put in a wavier claim for him. Certainly, no NL teams did.

Now I'm really sad that I didn't buy the HS Choi Korean WBC jersey before they sold out.

2006-03-24 15:01:44
86.   jasonungar05
"I have good memories of [the] Dodgers, one week, four games, seven home runs, grand slam. But they have a lot of infielders, a lot of good players. At my age, 27, I want to play more, not backup and pinch-hit."

So, thats my new over/under heading into the season:

can Robles and Ramon hit 7 HRs in one year (2006), combined?

2006-03-24 15:02:27
87.   OaklandAs
59 I mean, it was sad, he performed so badly in the WBC.

Except for that crucial 3-Run Homer which gave Korea the win against the U.S.

2006-03-24 15:03:43
88.   Jon Weisman
84 - I think Saenz is viewed as more top right-handed pinch-hitter than first baseman. I don't know that his signing relates directly to Garciaparra. If Garciaparra gets hurt, Saenz won't become the starter. They must think, as some above as said, that Loney will do it.

Rather than debating the credentials of Choi yet again, maybe you all want to debate the credentials of Oscar Robles and Ramon Martinez, since one or both of them are the main beneficiaries of this move.

2006-03-24 15:07:15
89.   Marty
I don't think the credentials of Robles and Martinez are debatable. I'd rather not have either, but it won't make that much difference whether one or both make the team.
2006-03-24 15:08:13
90.   bhsportsguy
Gurnick's lead shows the baggage the accompanied Choi from the moment he arrived in Los Angeles. Last time I checked, players don't have control of who they get traded for but because he was part of the LoDuca deal, he was viewed as a poster child for DePo Ball and not as a promising young ballplayer as he should have been.

And since the Dodgers waived him, I'm not sure it was a correct headline to say that the Dodgers lost Choi.

2006-03-24 15:10:17
91.   D4P
And since the Dodgers waived him, I'm not sure it was a correct headline to say that the Dodgers lost Choi.

I thought the exact same thing. Seems more like "Dodgers intentionally release Choi, getting nothing in return."

2006-03-24 15:10:29
92.   Mr Customer
88. I'd feel better about it if he were making way for JtD.
2006-03-24 15:11:39
93.   King of the Hobos
86 They combined for 6 last year, and it took them 476 ABs to do it. Thats 156 more ABs than it took Choi to hit 15
2006-03-24 15:11:48
94.   slackfarmer
I'd rather carry 12 pitchers than Robles and Martinez. Don't see how keeping both helps much. Both utility infielders who can't hit much.
2006-03-24 15:13:12
95.   bluetahoe
Good for Hee Seop. I hope he makes an impact with Pawtucket. Pawtucket could really use an OPS machine with plenty of upside to bolster their offense. LOL....

Here's my Choi predictions this season for Pawtucket of the Internal Leauge. It is the Internatioanl League, right?

HR - 26
Avg - .273
OBP - .377
SLG - .458
OPS - .825

He might even make the Triple A all star team.

2006-03-24 15:13:42
96.   jasonungar05
That's why its an over under, it can go either way! LOL
2006-03-24 15:13:47
97.   natepurcell
i like robles. i woldnt mind having robles on the team.

i dont like lucille II, he has no purpose but to decrease the quality of my life from having to watch him play for the dodgers.

2006-03-24 15:15:39
98.   Steve
It's the International League.
2006-03-24 15:16:31
99.   Steve
377 + 458 = 835
2006-03-24 15:16:44
100.   natepurcell
re 95

how can his OPS be 10pts less then his (OBP + SLG)?

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2006-03-24 15:17:27
101.   bluetahoe
Even better.
2006-03-24 15:17:56
102.   D4P
Spelling and addition are not his strengths.
2006-03-24 15:18:04
103.   Steve
Well, for him.
2006-03-24 15:19:52
104.   bluetahoe
My gut instinct tells me a there's a trade on the horizon.
2006-03-24 15:20:12
105.   Eric L
95 His minor league numbers are much better than your predictions (for the most part). The last time he played a full season in AAA, he went .287/.406/.513 for an OPS of 919.
2006-03-24 15:20:47
106.   jasonungar05
Are we getting a big bat for Left field?

Come on Tahoe, make it so.

2006-03-24 15:21:09
107.   natepurcell
your gut instinct also tells you tomko is going to have a breakout year.
2006-03-24 15:21:35
108.   Steve
105 -- Better than 825 or 835?
2006-03-24 15:22:04
109.   MartinBillingsley31
Our bench is extremely weak.
Guzman could help but he needs at bats everyday.
The fascination of ned and grady with lofton amazes me.
Guzman > lofton right now.
But then again this team has some serious flaws, more than just lofton, so why rush guzman.
2006-03-24 15:22:28
110.   bluetahoe
No, jasonunger. But Ned will bring aboard the bat or arm we need in July to carry us over the top.
2006-03-24 15:23:11
111.   D4P
My gut instinct tells me a there's a trade on the horizon.

Why trade when you can waive? The latter is much simpler. You don't have to deal with all those pesky "players you get in return."

2006-03-24 15:23:31
112.   Jon Weisman
I think the point about spelling has been made.

I do value correct spelling - I don't think it's a meaningless skill. It adds credibility to what you write. It's also polite.

So I would ask everyone here to proof their posts. If you expect others to take the time to read what you write, you should take the time to read it yourself.

I don't think anything more needs to be said. I don't think spelling corrections need to be offered anymore.

Math errors, because those are content errors, I guess it makes sense to offer corrections.

I also want the taunting of any commenter to cease immediately.

Thanks. I really would appreciate everyone's cooperation. It's no secret that we're not all on the same page here, but we have to try to keep the discussion from getting poisoned.

2006-03-24 15:23:36
113.   natepurcell
But Ned will bring aboard the bat or arm we need in July to carry us over the top.

at the expense of billingsley and kemp probably.

2006-03-24 15:23:47
114.   bluetahoe
Cheer up MB. This season is going to be fantastic. I'm telling ya. You better hop on this bus now. You don't want to be left behind in the dust.
2006-03-24 15:24:26
115.   bluetahoe
No Nate. But Navarro or Martin will be involved.
2006-03-24 15:26:16
116.   MartinBillingsley31
No, jasonunger. But Ned will bring aboard the bat or arm we need in July to carry us over the top.

This team has major flaws, a bat or an arm isn't going to put us over the top.
Plus your above statement would mean waiving goodbye to some of guzman billingsley laroche broxton martin.

2006-03-24 15:28:59
117.   Steve
im sory i will stick to homasexul slurs fromnow on
2006-03-24 15:29:18
118.   bluetahoe
Now Now MB. You're being a negative nellie. Kent is Kent. Drew will have a season like he did in '04. He looks great this spring. Our entire staff looks great this spring. We've got 2 grasshoppers at the top in Furcal and Lofton. Mueller and Nomar are above average. I'm looking at 93-97 wins.
2006-03-24 15:30:26
119.   King of the Hobos
I just realized that the Yankees got more for Tony Womack than the Dodgers did for Choi. Idiocy of the Reds aside, that hurts
2006-03-24 15:31:29
120.   D4P
Even Dave Ross fetched $75,000.
2006-03-24 15:31:48
121.   coachjpark
Wow. I knew this was going to happen, but it still sucks and symbolizes what's wrong with Ned Coletti's Dodgers.........

I'm saddened today both as a Dodger fan, and as a Korean baseball fan; yet, I am happy for Hee Seop....

2006-03-24 15:32:05
122.   willhite
With deepest apologies to Ernest Thayer:

Oh, somewhere in this favored land the sun is shining bright.
The band is playing somewhere, and somewhere hearts are light.
And, somewhere men are laughing, and little children shout,

but there is no joy in DT Land --
mighty Hee Seop has waivered out.

2006-03-24 15:33:29
123.   King of the Hobos
118 Grasshoppers? What does that mean? Furcal and Lofton can leap over 20 times their body length? Grasshoppers aren't really known for exceptional speed, or the ability to steal anything...
2006-03-24 15:33:51
124.   Jon Weisman
Okay, Steve, you're excused. Seriously. And thanks for forcing me to do it. Thanks for forcing me to look like a jerk when all I want is for people to get along in here.

I don't know if you want to come back or not - it's certainly up to you - but you're welcome to return if you're willing to behave by the very few rules I impose.

2006-03-24 15:34:18
125.   slackfarmer
Based on talent alone, I think Mr. Ned has a mediocre offseason. Considering how much he spent to make very little, if any, improvement, I rate his offseason moves poor at best.

But the fact remains that the NL West is the weakest division around, and the 2005 club performed poorly mostly due to racking up massive time on the DL. So if the 2006 club remains relatively healthy, it should win the west.

2006-03-24 15:34:44
126.   bluetahoe
Hobo King. If Choi was so great, why didn't 26 (guessing here) other teams snag Choi? I guess they assumed he'd slip through. But why assume that. If he is so good, 750 G's is peanuts, you'd think he'd a been picked up by a team that isn't good. Not a good team like the Red Sox. A former Dodger coach told me Hee Seop Choi wasn't that good. I think the majority of coaches agree with this former Dodger coach.
2006-03-24 15:35:30
127.   regfairfield
120 Just when I thought this couldn't get worse...
2006-03-24 15:36:12
128.   natepurcell
Grasshoppers aren't really known for exceptional speed, or the ability to steal anything...

they can be raccoons! arent raccons known to steal stuff?

2006-03-24 15:37:13
129.   Bob Timmermann
I was once carjacked by a group of raccoons. But they were dressed as badgers.
2006-03-24 15:38:05
130.   regfairfield
126 The current Dodger coach believes Ramon Martinez deserves a spot on the Dodgers and that Jason Repko should be allowed on the team despite actually having options this year.
2006-03-24 15:38:10
131.   natepurcell
Hobo King. If [ortiz] was so great, why didn't 26 (guessing here) other teams snag [Ortiz]?

the answer is, because not everyone's perfect. :)

2006-03-24 15:38:20
132.   GoBears
111. Ugh. I guess we knew this was coming, and for collective DT sanity, this is certainly preferable to watching Choi rot on the bench while lesser players amass outs. And I'm happy for Choi that he's in a place where management philosophy values his well, his value.

But sorta like this new book on Bonds has yanked me out of denial (or hope against hope) by proving something that had long been suspected, this Choi waiver (WAIVER?!) confirms my worst suspicions about the new Dodger management. Colletti is not the antichrist, or even the worst GM in baseball (or the NL West), but he is worse than I'd hoped he might be, and he's exactly what I'd feared he would be when his name was first announced. This will bliss out the old school "I know what I see" types in the media and fan base, but I'm sure it will prove to have been a bad move. Even if Loney and Guzman and the rest of the kids come up and star and would have made Choi (who's a few years older) redundant, to have given him away for nothing while he was still cheap is inexcusable. Since he's gone now, I would LOVE for him to become even halfway Colletti's Pedro - the guy he gave away who turned out to be a star.

Sure, Ramon II and Robles are breathing a little easier, but if they really intend to move Kent to first when (not if) Nomar gets injured, then the real beneficiary would seem to me to be Izturis, unless it happens late enough that Loney gets the call.

This is bad because I think Choi was the best 1b option for the Dodgers, even ignoring his cheap price tag, and especially so in light of that, but it's worse because of the ill it bodes for the Colletti era. He didn't just make a bad decision - he revealed that he's the kind of guy who would think that this was a good decision.


2006-03-24 15:38:55
133.   natepurcell
people always blame the badger Bob.
2006-03-24 15:39:59
134.   D4P
Steve's insolence toward Jon is both surprising and disappointing.
2006-03-24 15:40:57
135.   slackfarmer
126 The fact that Choi was passed over by many teams speaks more about the collective lack of wisdom in the baseball old guard than it does of Choi's value. Time will tell if Theo or the majority of baseball is right on this one.
2006-03-24 15:41:42
136.   ToyCannon
While everyone is giddy about Choi getting a chance in Fenway, isn't it obvious that very few baseball people feel Choi is anything more then a pinch hitter. At least 26 teams passed on him including Oakland. Either 98% of the people in baseball are right and were clueless or were right and 98% of baseball is wrong. I'm betting on the team that Bill James works for. Wouldn't take much to see Lowell fail, allowing Youklis to be moved to 3b and Choi to 1st. Of course the same team signed JT Snow so go figure. They also had Petagine last year and failed to use him correctly so even if the GM brings the players in, again it is upto the manager to use him. Francona will probably never use Choi while Snow gets 400 at bats. Check back with the Sam Horn people in August and see how that is working out.
2006-03-24 15:41:54
137.   regfairfield
More fun Ortiz-Choi parallels:

David Ortiz's spot on the roster was taken by another known to be useless utility player: Chris Gomez.

2006-03-24 15:42:24
138.   Screwgie
I had a strange dream last night where the Dodgers traded Hee Seop Choi to Boston for Grady Little.


2006-03-24 15:42:45
139.   willhite
If Choi had stayed with the Dodgers this year, chances are he would have had even fewer at bats than last year and nothing would have been proven..............again.

At least he may have a chance with the Sox and we can all look at things in October and find out which group was correct in their analysis of Choi's potential.

2006-03-24 15:43:11
140.   regfairfield
136 I think Oakland passed on him because they have no room for him. Who do you knock off that roster?
2006-03-24 15:44:09
141.   D4P
Waiving Choi is pretty inexcusable. I felt the same way about failing to offer arbitration to Elmer Dessens (and thereby likely forfeiting draft picks).
2006-03-24 15:44:12
142.   Daniel Zappala
The Los Angeles Raccoons. Racoon Thoughts. I like it. What will the new team colors be? Brown and black? Do we get ringtailed sox?
2006-03-24 15:46:51
143.   das411
Somewhat surprised that neither Tampa Bay nor Florida put in a claim for the Chopper, those teams are a little shorter at 1B than Boston is unless the plan is to trade back some of the Beckett bounty for HSC...

121 - I'm saddened today both as a Dodger fan, and as a Korean baseball fan; yet, I am happy for Hee Seop....

Well said. Hopefully Boston will be his last stop for a while, one way or another. Four teams in four seasons cannot be easy for anybody to deal with.

2006-03-24 15:48:26
144.   slackfarmer
140 Also, the Sox can afford to send Choi to AAA and keep him there as insurance. The A's are too cheap to pay $750k to stash an insurance guy in the minors.
2006-03-24 15:48:29
145.   Inside Baseball
I'm really upset by this news albeit not at all surprised. But when I read it my stomache sank similar to when our signing of Vladimir fell through. This is really unfortunate. I will now never be able to get over my hatred for Jim Tracy. Never. Good luck Hee-Seop. You deserved so much better.
2006-03-24 15:49:27
146.   Xeifrank
30 hours until the "Friends of Dodger Thoughts" yahoo fantasy baseball league drafts. If you are signed up, please get ready. vr, Xei
2006-03-24 15:49:53
147.   Jon Weisman
For a diversion ... there's a post up top about the Dodgers hiring Jerry Reuss to fill the former Al Downing radio slot.
2006-03-24 15:50:30
148.   Marty
I have a friend who is being terrorized by a racoon. It comes into her kitchen through the dog door in the middle of the night. It then makes a racket breaking into the dog food bin.

The clueless dogs stay upstairs.

2006-03-24 15:54:20
149.   sanchez101
136. just as many teams passed on Ortiz before he was picked up by the Red Sox. My guess is that many teams think Choi is useless, but a handfull think he has a future, but didnt have room on the roster. Take Arizona for example, even if they saw potential in Choi how do you fit him on a roster with Tony Clark and Conor Jackson?

Im just happy Choi didnt end up with the Giants, Yankees, or any other team I dont like. Boston is probably my second favorite AL team, so I can still comforably root for Choi. Although if this kind of thing becomes common for the Colletti front office, rooting for the Dodgers is going to be difficult.

2006-03-24 15:58:04
150.   GoBears
Apropos of something and (really) directed at no one or comment in particular: gut feelings are not instincts, or intuitions or ESP: they are analytical conclusions that are just poorly specified and generally unexamined. Or, they are hopes masquerading as hypotheses.

If one just has a gut feeling that Nomar will have a big year, or that the Dodgers are about to make a trade, this is because one has a theory about what determines health and performance (in the Nomar case) or what the decision makers believe, how they make their choices, and what their goals are (in the trade case).

I've thought a lot about this, because this same battle between statistics and impressionistic analysis is raging in the social sciences now, and is just as counter-productive. Sabermetrics is, to my mind, a true science of baseball, at least in process, if not always in product. It hopes to learn not only what patterns exist, but to develop theories of causation that explain why they exist. The battle isn't really between statistics and something else. Heck, the singular of "data" is "anecdote." Everyone uses stats, but the pursuit of the SABR types is to use them more wisely than to spout small-sample bivariate correlations. To acknowledge that correlation does not imply causation, and to realize that without causal theories, we might be able to describe, but we can never explain.

All of that is a long-winded way of inviting the skeptics of sabermetric approaches to stick around, and to attempt to EXPLAIN those "gut instincts." Nobody "just has a feeling that X." X is a prediction, and predictions are hypotheses generated from theories about how the (in this case, baseball) world works. So rather than just describe your conclusion, try to explain it. You'll get many fewer snide rejoinders about sophistry, and many more thoughtful responses and sincere challenges.

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2006-03-24 16:01:47
151.   Marty
Wow, that was impressive GoBears. Very well said.
2006-03-24 16:02:56
152.   Jon Weisman
I think 150 is a great, great post - really worth the time to read. It really frames a large part of what Dodger Thoughts is about.

It is profoundly worth examining where feelings come from. The feelings may very well be proven true - but we learn so much by understanding the reasons for them, and engaging with each other's feelings and instincts thoughtfully.

Those of you who consider yourselves anti-statistics or anti-some-statistics - this is the post that carves out the common ground between you and those who embrace stats. It's really worth thinking about.

Thanks, GoBears.

2006-03-24 16:03:54
153.   jasonungar05
"We have liked Choi for a long time and view this as an opportunity to acquire him when his value is down a bit," Boston general manager Theo Epstein said. "We like his power, his patience and his hands at first base. Choi provides depth for us at first base and in a way third base as well, considering Kevin Youkilis' ability to play both positions."
2006-03-24 16:03:56
154.   Eric L
Which teams that passed on Choi actually needed a 1B at this point in the spring? If they didn't have a need for Choi, would it mess with their 40 man roster?

I think that is a better discussion than "Choi sucks, 26 teams passed on him" or the "conventional wisdom people don't like him".

2006-03-24 16:04:05
155.   Marty
Nice post on Choi from one of our best commenters:

2006-03-24 16:04:27
156.   TrueBlueLA
147 - I believe that's spelled "John" Weisman. Pls check.

The funny thing about this waiver is that everyone was upset that the team was pinching pennies by getting Choi to play 1B, but they aren't criticizing Ned for pinching pennies by not sending him to Vegas. Does Loney really have to play at AAA at this stage in his career? Is he further along than LaRoche was last year?

2006-03-24 16:05:17
157.   jasonungar05
yeah that was an awesome post bears.
2006-03-24 16:07:29
158.   regfairfield
154 Contending teams include:

The Indians (replaces Broussard)
The Yankees (replaces Bernie Williams, since it lets Giambi move to DH)

2006-03-24 16:08:55
159.   ToyCannon
Milton Bradley:)

The Red Sox wasted Petagine at AAA all year and they will do the same to Choi. I don't see how his lot has changed at all. He is just insurance and they had a spot at AAA for him. Baseball no longer views Choi as a viable major league position player and nobody has any opening at DH. Ortiz is an exception but not many 27 year old waiver wires turn into anything worth talking about. He'd do better to sign a contract in Japan like Petagine did who also never got a fair shake in the states and destroyed the Japanese league.

2006-03-24 16:12:22
160.   underdog
I'm happy about Choi only in that it will hopefully (eventually) end the endless Choi/no-Choi-in-Mudville debates here that get kinda tiresome. I like the guy and want to see him do well somewhere, but I'm not really clear on how going to Boston is that much of an improvement. They have about as many 1Bmen there as we do! But he is the youngest of the options so perhaps long term this is best for him.

If it means Loney will eventually be given the shot in LA, then I'm happy with it. The fact is, since Choi can only play first base, unlike some of the other infielders they have as options, his role on the depth chart/bench was more limited. Still, seems like they could have gotten something for him...

Speaking of which, since Jeremy Reed is hurt, think we can fleece Seattle into a Cody Ross trade? (And I know some of you will say "Jason Repko" but I'm not one of those. ;-) )


2006-03-24 16:13:16
161.   Eric L
152 To me, it really comes down to the basic principles that someone learns in a freshman comp class (or hopefully, in high school).

When you make a statement, you better back it up with some sort of analysis.

2006-03-24 16:15:12
162.   TrueBlueLA
Ross is hurt, too, right? Wrist, I believe.
2006-03-24 16:15:44
163.   regfairfield
159 There is another case like Choi's that worked out pretty well, but isn't talked about nearly as much as Ortiz. Like Choi this guy put up huge numbers in the minors but couldn't hit lefties and wasn't great with the glove. After giving him 62 at bats in the big leagues at the age of 25, the Rangers came gave up on him and conducted this trade:

Rangers get Einar Diaz and Ryan Drese
Indians get Travis Hafner

History has shown us that the Indians got a little more than a slight edge in this deal.

2006-03-24 16:15:54
164.   Eric L
158 I'm going to assume that the Red Sox had a chance to claim Choi before the Yankees did.
2006-03-24 16:17:10
165.   TheRedMenace
140 - How about Antonio Perez. If Beanne wanted Choi, Choi would have been part of the Bradley deal.

The fact that Beanne didnt want him doesn't prove anything, to my mind Beanne hasn't done anything to distinguish himself as a person who can build a championship offense.

However, if Beanne wanted him, Choi would be in Oakland.

2006-03-24 16:19:50
166.   MLKaplan43
I imagine that Choi is out of options, so any talk of him playing in AAA for either LA or Boston is probably moot point.
2006-03-24 16:20:59
167.   underdog
162 You're right. His wrist contusion. Though it doesn't sound serious at all. Just that it may buy the Dodgers a little more time in deciding what to do with him. But yeah, Seattle may not want to do it...
2006-03-24 16:23:19
168.   ToyCannon
Sure the Indians fleeced the Rangers but it was a trade not a waiver wire pickup. Lots and lots of one sided trades involving minor league ballplayers. Hafner had only 62 Major League at bats at the time of the deal compared to the 915 at bats Choi has accumulated.
2006-03-24 16:23:56
169.   GoBears
155 Thanks for the link, Marty. Which of our regulars is that (oddly, it's the real name that makes him anonymous to me). An excellent piece.

159 Any other team, ToyCannon, and I might agree. But if anyone is going to use Choi properly, it would be a team run by Epstein (or Beane, but the A's clearly don't need him). Wasn't Snow signed during Theo's hiatus? I bet he and Lowell don't last long, and we see the Greek and Korean (respectively) Gods of Walks manning the corners in Fenway quite a bit by mid-season at the latest.

I think a Choi/Manny/Ortiz/Youkilis middle of the order would be quite impressive.

163 Great reminder about Hafner. OF course, Choi DID hit lefties in the minors, and is at least decent defensively (great hands, if not the greatest footwork). I bet that he could do it all if given the chance. He's still at what, 86 ABs against LHP for his MLB career?

2006-03-24 16:26:11
170.   Robert Daeley
Speaking as someone who likes Choi but who doesn't get the fever pitch (no pun intended) that the discussion gets up to around these parts, I have to point out that those in the pro-Choi camp are really doing their cause a disfavor by lumping him into comparisons (both intended and implied) with Pedro (132), Papi (3, etc.), or Vlad (145). For every Martinez, Ortiz, and Guerrero that have slipped through a team's fingers, there are dozens more data points suggesting that attaching so much emotion to a player is at best misplaced.

However, I'm not here to wade into any Choi debates. As I said, I like the guy and wish there were a way for him to stay in Dodger Blue. This is in no way a comment on his numerical nor potential value as a baseball player. The main reason for my speaking out is in reply to GoBears' 150 post. I found his casting of the numbers-vs-nurture debate quite well done. This is, after all, the same game we're all talking about here.

And thus my contention -- if you are defending Choi due to his statistical value, turning around and presenting that sober info (sobermetrics?) in emotional, hyperbolic rhetoric is really self-defeating and off-putting for "sophists" who might want to debate you.

Instead of blaming the anti-number folks for the "snide rejoinders," let's own up to the fact that snide attitudes are the responsibility of the snide, not the target. And instead of over-stating the pro-numbers case, let what is good, important, and very intriguing information stand on its own merits.

2006-03-24 16:27:51
171.   GoBears
165. I think you're right that Choi is a Beane-type player and that he'd be in Oakland if Beane had wanted him. But I think you draw the wrong conclusion from the outcome that he's not in Oakland. It's (likely) not that Beane doesn't value Choi - it's that he doesn't need him. With his own Choi-like prospect in Dan Johnson, not to mention Frank Thomas for platoon purposes, and Nick Swisher as well, Choi would have been redundant there (or one of the others would have been). The last thing Oakland needs is another first baseman, no matter how good or cheap.
2006-03-24 16:28:04
172.   TheRedMenace
The update states, Choi "has defensive value."

Now that post 150 suggests that we provide evidence for all our assertions, lest they be considered, non-scientific, can anyone provide any evidence or explanation for this one?

2006-03-24 16:28:22
173.   thinkblue0

I wouldn't mind further discussing your statement that W-L record is the most important stat for pitchers....

2006-03-24 16:31:08
174.   thinkblue0

he was tied with Snow for the best FPCT amongst first baseman, not to mention I believe he had the highest RF amongst NL first baseman last year...

2006-03-24 16:32:51
175.   GoBears
Instead of blaming the anti-number folks for the "snide rejoinders," let's own up to the fact that snide attitudes are the responsibility of the snide, not the target. And instead of over-stating the pro-numbers case, let what is good, important, and very intriguing information stand on its own merits.

That's exactly what I meant to say. Thanks for saying it better.

As for my other referenced post 132, I was careful to not say that I thought Choi would go down as another Pedro-sized folly. I said "hope" and "half of Pedro." Heck, Choi could end up being a perennial all-star and HOFer, and still not be anywhere near as important a player as Pedro. I just hope, for his own sake and for the sake of a future, positive change in Dodger philosophy, that Choi proves Colletti wrong.

But I was careful to state it as a hope, and not as a prediction. I can't see the future any better than anyone else.

2006-03-24 16:35:30
176.   Eric L
154 To answer my own question...

NL East - No teams. Maybe the Marlins, but they have Mike Jacobs who bats LH and is pencilled in at 1B. Choi would be redundant.

NL Central - The Astros might have been an interesting fit, but I'm think that Berkman will be at 1B again. Choi might have also been an interesting pick up for the Brewers, but Fielder bats L and I assuming that their 40 man roster is bursting.

NL West - Once again, maybe the Giants could have used Choi but they have Sweeney and Neikro at 1st. Sweeney plays the roll of LH bat. Seeing that Neddy wasn't big on Choi, I can't imagine that Sabean is either. The other teams are pretty well set (Padres have Adrian Gonzales, Rockies have Helton, D-backs have Tony Clark, Connor Jackson, and Chad Tracy listed at 1B).

AL West - As much as people would have liked to see him on the A's, I just don't think there was room. Nick Johnson and Nick Swisher are listed as 1B on ESPN. The Rangers, Angels, and Mariners are pretty well set at 1B. Maybe Choi could've worked out as a DH for one the teams.

AL Central - I'll go with reg's idea of replacing Broussard with Choi, but Broussard is cheaper and still hits LH. They aren't much different, except that Choi does get on base more.

NL East - Baltimore seems like it would have been an interesting place for him to land, but they also seem full of 1B/DH types. TB already have a more expensive version of Choi (Travis Lee, but with a better glove). Toroto has Overbay and Hinske.

Just based on a quick glance at things, there were a whole heck of a lot of teams in need of Choi's services. As much as we support Choi, let's face it. It's not like he is unique in baseball (or he has been pegged as not unique).

2006-03-24 16:35:39
177.   TheDictator
This is probably redundant but as a Choi fan. I am a little upset at the waiver deal.

But personal feelings aside. Why didn't Colletti at least trade him. Choi might mean nothing to Colletti but that does not mean that he has zero value to anyone else. Colletti could have at least traded Choi, got something for him. Instead, he cut a player who hit 15 home runs last year.

Nothing in return.

This seems idiotic to me. Why not at least get a single A pitcher.

2006-03-24 16:37:29
178.   thinkblue0

because that would be too smart...we don't want to get into anything smart.

2006-03-24 16:38:08
179.   regfairfield
170 Choi's best comparable according to PECOTA is David Ortiz (his other two are Craig Kusick and Erubiel Durazo). His minor league numbers matchup very similarly to Hafners.

In his first two years Hafner put up numbers that we expect from Choi (.242/.329/.387 .254 .327/.485) The difference is that Hafner was given the full time job after that while Choi was buried.

2006-03-24 16:38:35
180.   TheRedMenace
174 - Do we count as evidence a metric that most SABRmets steadfastly ignore; or do we use the small sample size that is anomalous to the rest of Choi's career.
2006-03-24 16:40:27
181.   underdog
Meanwhile, Jose Cruz Jr. just teed off against Dontrelle Willis... If anyone's scoring ST games at home.
2006-03-24 16:40:53
182.   TheRedMenace
177 - In order to trade Choi for a single A pitcher you would have to find a team that would trade a single A pitcher for him.
2006-03-24 16:43:48
183.   Eric L
180 The debate about Choi's defense is certainly interesting. The scouting report (as has been mentioned on here plenty of times) basically says that he has great tools at 1B and fields his position well.

I believe the saber stuff says that he is average to slightly below average at 1B.

Based on those two things, I wouldn't call him an excellent 1B. He is probably average at best.

2006-03-24 16:44:32
184.   regfairfield
180 Choi has a career rate2 of 99, meaning he's slightly below average. His career .992 fielding percentage (if you want to use a more traditional metric) is equivelant to what Pujols did in 2005, and no one calls him a butcher.
2006-03-24 16:44:49
185.   blue22
180 - Choi's rate2 last year was 95...not good...which dragged his career figure under 100.

Saenz rate2'd an 83 last year (94 career). Phillips was an 89 (92 career). Kent has an 87 career rate2 at 1B.

2006-03-24 16:45:45
186.   bluetahoe
I believe ERA should still exist, but it should be replaced with AERA. AERA meaning Adjusted Earned Run Average.

For example.

Pitcher A has given up 1 run in 5 innings. The 1st 3 batters in the 6th reach base and the bases are loaded. Pitcher is replaced by a reliever and said reliever gets out of the mess unharmed.

Pitcher A went 5 innings giving up 1 run for an ERA of 1.80 I think.

Pitcher B has the same scenario. But the reliever allows all runs to score.

Pitcher B went 5 innings giving up 4 runs for an ERA of 7.20 I think.

Yet A and B pitched exacyly the same.

AERA would base runs on the situation. The stats folks would be able to come up with the best numbers.

For example if a pitcher leaves with a runner on 1st and 2 out, he could be charged with .12 runs. .12 representing the percent chance a runner scores from 1st with 2 out.

For example if a pitcher leaves with a runner on 3rd and nobody out the pitcher is charged with .91 runs.

2006-03-24 16:47:03
187.   dzzrtRatt
155 Thanks Marty, and thanks for leaving a comment too. My blog in toto hasn't gotten as many comments as this one gets on a slow day. But that's only to be expected. This blog is a community. Mine is just a wee diary of occasional thoughts.

169 DzzrtRatt = John Stodder. I outed myself maybe a month ago. But I like my pseudonym so I'm keeping him around for DT.

2006-03-24 16:48:53
188.   jasonungar05
He is a better defensive 1b than anyone we have on our major leauge roster.
2006-03-24 16:48:57
189.   TrueBlueLA
(172) - This data seems to confirm that his 2004 season was not significantly different from average. He seems to have turned an unusually large amount of line drives into outs, but whether this is due to luck, skill, or his height, I don't know.

2006-03-24 16:49:25
190.   blue22
184 - Pujols has been a consistent 102 since moving to 1B fulltime.

JT Snow was a 107 last year, but is surprisingly only at 100 for his career. He's had a very odd career pattern, randomly going from the low 90s to the >107 range, with very few instances between.

2006-03-24 16:53:48
191.   ToyCannon
I agree with you wholeheartedly that Choi and Hafner are great comps, but at the same time I'm also convinced that Choi will never get another chance of full time duty unless he gets lucky. The Indians were rebuilding when they dealt for Hafner and they could afford to take a chance. If the rebuilding teams won't even take a waiver chance on Choi, I don't see the better teams giving him the job at DH because no one needs him. Theo can wax poetic all he wants about CHoi and it will be no different then what Depo said last spring. The bottom line is that Francona will not play Choi. Petagine was a better player and an excellent glove and he sat on the bench, things will be no different for Choi in Beantown.JMO
2006-03-24 16:54:38
192.   MartinBillingsley31

Just look at h/9 w/9 hr/9 k/9 (or whip instead of h/9 and w/9) when evaluating pitchers, instead of making up new stats.

2006-03-24 16:55:12
193.   TrueBlueLA
186 - That is good thinking. They DID pitch the same, and you recognize a weakness in ERA. This is why ERA is a poor predictor of future ERA. You can learn more about these things at, and, among other places.
2006-03-24 16:55:33
194.   thinkblue0

I wouldn't necessarily claim that last years sample size is anomalous to the rest of his career. The two previous years Choi had a .990 and .991 FPCT.

See, my problem is that people base their statements on their perceptions which tend to decieve them. For example, Choi can't be good defensively because most people say something like "he's big and slow". But the bottom line is, he's proven over his career that he IS a good defensive player. Obviously his earlier numbers are a little worse than last year, but I tend to attribute that to the fact that he's just getting better over time. After all, he is only 27 (right?). If he was 35 and randomly posted great defensive numbers for one year then I believe that would constitute an anomaly.

On the flip side, I look at a guy like Lofton. So many people (not necessarily around here) are so high on him because he played well last year. But I don't believe last year's performance was indicative of where his career is at now. I look at his good numbers last year, but sub par numbers the previous few years.

I guess my point is that the common perception is that Choi can't field and can't hit. Although, the numbers show he can field at a level that's at least on par with an average first baseman. Also, I think we'd all agree he has power that is far above average...I guess it just irritates me that we gave up on a guy who was never given his fair chance AND got nothing for him in the process.

Whoever it was that said the Dodgers fleeced the Dodgers....ineed.

2006-03-24 16:57:14
195.   GoBears
187 Ah yes, I remember the self-outing now. Great site and great post. Thanks.

186 That's a sound idea, bt. And it's why we look at stats such as WHIP. WHIP would punish pitchers A and B equally for that shaky start to the 6th.

ERA is a better stat over the long haul (and thus for starters) because the idea is that those sorts of flaws should even out with a big enough sample.

I guess you'd only be worried if some managers have a pattern of bringing in relievers with runners on. These days, most don't it would seem. Closers, of course, start innings. Setup guys too. And often, managers don't believe the starter is gassed until after HE gives up the bases-clearing HR (hullo, Mr. Tracy), which at least gives the reliever a clean slate.

2006-03-24 16:58:46
196.   natepurcell
Just look at h/9 w/9 hr/9 k/9 (or whip instead of h/9 and w/9) when evaluating pitchers, instead of making up new stats.

whats wrong with making up new stats if they are shown to be relevant and a better way to measure a player's ability then the current stats?

i mean, what do you think VORP, EqA, DIPs, and other metrics are?

2006-03-24 16:59:00
197.   Goiter
Seeing Choi play at 3rd base for Boston would be interesting. Not sure how well he would play there compared to 1st base though.
2006-03-24 17:01:01
198.   thinkblue0

lefties can't play third base

2006-03-24 17:02:52
199.   Johnson
186 AERA would base runs on the situation. The stats folks would be able to come up with the best numbers.

I'm in the middle of reading "The Book" by Tango et al. and it seems that such stats already exist - the book has tables of expected # of runs for a given base/out state - in your example, pitchers A and B have left the bases loaded with no outs, and by recollection I think the expected number of runs for this situation is about 3.

Of course, the authors of the book would likely argue that the best method of doing this would be to look at the pitcher's wOBA (weighted on-base average, calculable for either a hitter or pitcher, for details consult "The Book"), which would be the same for both pitchers A and B. There appears to be a reasonably good way to translate wOBA to an approximation of ERA, if raw wOBA is unfamiliar to use.

2006-03-24 17:03:17
200.   regfairfield
197 I think he meant that it lets Youkliss play 3rd instead of 1st.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2006-03-24 17:03:23
201.   MartinBillingsley31

I agree but leave that to the experts.
I'm just talking about anyone who still values ERA making up new stats.

You should know me by now nate.

I just didn't want to offend someone by saying that someone who still values ERA shouldn't be trying to make up new stats.

Well nate you just made me offend someone.

2006-03-24 17:03:25
202.   Jon Weisman
197/198 - I can't tell if you guys are joking, but that's not what Epstein meant.
2006-03-24 17:04:45
203.   natepurcell
how fitting, my dad just called me to rub it in.

"oh nate, i just heard the terrible news, im so sorry son."

2006-03-24 17:05:41
204.   scareduck
177 - because Colletti couldn't trade him? Either through incompetence, or Choi's bad reputation, no GM will put a guy like Choi on waivers if he doesn't have to. Barring some discovery otherwise, I have to assume he at least made some minimal effort.
2006-03-24 17:05:54
205.   GoBears
I should add that one of my favorite things about sabermetrics is how people are constantly trying to build a better mousetrap. They don't merely come up with a stat and just run with it. Just this week, BP has articles re-examining the measures of "replacement-level" talent (which undergird VORP and WARP and the like) and normalized league values (that are needed for such stats as RC/27, Equivalent Average, etc.). The competition between these propeller heads to come up with better and better tools is the hallmark of science, and why I love baseball not only as a fan listening to Vinnie wax poetic and the "on any given pitch" unpredictability of things, but also as a scientist trying to figure out how it all works.

I would also say that the propeller heads are remarkably good at explaining complicated measures and concepts in relatively simple terms. Ironically, this will actually become less and less true as teams catch on and hire these guys, making their data and methods proprietary. Just ask MGL (only he won't tell you).

2006-03-24 17:06:07
206.   thinkblue0

I still haven't seen Epstein's comment.

Just commenting on the fact that there's no way on this earth Choi would ever play third.

ugh, now I'm confused.

2006-03-24 17:10:23
207.   Johnson
206 Epstein's comment was that Choi effectively gives the Sox more flexibility at third because if Choi is at first, Youkilis can slide over to third. The quote is in an update to the original post, up top.
2006-03-24 17:10:32
208.   Jon Weisman
206 - Don't sweat it. It's in my post up top. Epstein thinks Choi might also be useful because he would free up more time for Kevin Youkilis to play third.
2006-03-24 17:12:52
209.   natepurcell
why cant a lefty play 3rd? im serious here...

i use to play 3rd base in single A ball and i am a lefty! and i took pride in my defensive abilities!

2006-03-24 17:13:31
210.   GoBears
206 He said that Choi could be thought of as a backup at 1st and 3rd, because in replacing Youkilis at 1st, Yooky could go replace Lowell at 3rd. So Youkilis's versatility increases Choi's value.

That's right, and should make either Snow or Lowell redundant. Probably Snow first, since he can't play 3rd, while Lowell could presumably play either position.

OF course, they also have the DH, and if Big Papi gets hurt, Choi could DH.

By adding Wily Mo Pena and Choi back to back, Boston has more than made up for losing Damon to the Yankees. Or so it seems to me. Now they just need to clean out the stopgaps (Lowell and Snow - um, Snowell?) and they're locked and loaded.

2006-03-24 17:16:35
211.   GoBears
209. Really? You're serious? It would require a reverse pivot or a spin for every throw. Same reason as it's difficult for a righty to play 1b, with the obvious additional complication that 3bmen make a lot more throws, and longer ones.

Because it's you Nate, I'm thinking that either you're joking or you were a hell of an athlete. Or baserunners in single A are REALLY slow.

2006-03-24 17:17:04
212.   regfairfield
209 How the heck did you make any throws?
2006-03-24 17:17:10
213.   thinkblue0

Did you seriously? I was drafted, I went to college (had to stop after tearing my labrum) and I NEVER saw a lefty third baseman.

If you pulled it off, I give you some serious credit....

2006-03-24 17:17:20
214.   Bunting is for losers
I played 3rd in little league, being left-handed and all. The biggest problem is that you have to turn your whole body to throw to 1st base. Also, if people are stealing 3rd, you have to reach across your body to tag the runner out. Other than that no big deal. The funny thing is, if the baseball gods had decided to run the other direction around the bases, lefties would be better to have in the infield.
2006-03-24 17:18:49
215.   natepurcell
a nice red sox lineup

2b- mark loretta
cf- coco crisp
lf- manny
dh- ortiz
c- varitek
rf- willy mo pena
1b- choi
3b- youkilis
ss- gonzalez/pedoria

thats a nice lineup IMO

2006-03-24 17:18:49
216.   Johnson
209 I believe the conventional wisdom is that the throw to first from third (and I would assume all other infield positions, no?) is awkward for a lefty. Whether this is because the throw is not across the body, or because the ball transfer from glove to hand requires a lefty to reach to the third base side while a righty reaches to the first base, I don't know.
2006-03-24 17:19:19
217.   Marty
I was a left-handed third baseman as a nine-year-old. The coaches came to their senses the next year and put me on the mound.
2006-03-24 17:19:56
218.   natepurcell

it was single A in little league.....

2006-03-24 17:20:14
219.   natepurcell
i cant live the lie anymore, i had to confess!
2006-03-24 17:20:22
220.   Marty
Put a left hander at third against Pittsburgh this year. Everyone will bunt down the line. Well, they would anyway, but it would work.
2006-03-24 17:21:28
221.   Bunting is for losers
btw, i loved playing 3rd. But it didn't last long and I went back to 1st the next season. The coach I had when I played 3rd was pretty unconventional.
2006-03-24 17:21:38
222.   FirstMohican
Anyone care to find out the most home runs hit by a player who was then waived? Choi must be up there.
2006-03-24 17:22:07
223.   regfairfield
215 Don't forget Trot.

216 Yeah, setting for the throw is just terrible for a lefty. When I played with my friends, I would play short since I had by far the best glove, but to make any throw meant I basically had to spin in a circle before I could release. It's not a good idea.

2006-03-24 17:22:50
224.   Mark

Now, if we could only get rid of Penny, the long national nightmare of The Trade will finally be over.

2006-03-24 17:23:51
225.   GoBears
219 That's 10 "Hail Brookses" and 20 "Our Schmidties" for you, nate.

Misleading us like that....for shame...

2006-03-24 17:27:57
226.   GoBears
224 Except that we'd have an even long skein of Plaschke articles about how the team's improved record in 2006 over 2005 was solely because Colletti undid what DePodesta did.

And how Drew's 150-game season was solely because Colletti-acquisition Lofton lit a fire under him (knowing how to win, and all).

Of course, I would only hear about it from yooz guyz, since I stopped reading the LA Times as soon as Al Gore invented the internet.

2006-03-24 17:28:30
227.   GoBears
er, um, "even longer..." Sorry 'bout that.
2006-03-24 17:31:18
228.   MartinBillingsley31
Gore = the internet LOL!
Hillary rotten clinton = the most brilliant woman LOL!

Sorry couldn't resist.

2006-03-24 17:36:15
229.   Jon Weisman
222 - Babe Ruth?
2006-03-24 17:37:58
230.   das411
210 - Don't forget about Crisp, Loretta and Beckett; the Sox have added five potential All-Stars this winter for a total cost of an overpaid Edgar Renteria, an overrated Bronson Arroyo, and a few overhyped prospects.
2006-03-24 17:43:46
231.   Woody
Since I like the Red Sox ALMOST as much as the Dodgers these days, it will be interesting to see HSC in a Red Sox uniform.

I though the JTSnow acquisition was pretty lame and hope that Choi gets to fulfill his potential in Boston. On the other hand, if he stinks, Boston fans have way less patience than you guys in LA and they'll run him out of town on a rail.

2006-03-24 17:44:10
232.   capdodger
224 And the Dodgers would have, you know... nothing, to show for it.
2006-03-24 17:46:15
233.   Inside Baseball
Re 170

I appreciate your comments and I want to clarify my post in 145 when I compared my disappointment to today's news with the disappointment I felt when Vlad slipped through our grasp. I didn't intend to compare Choi the player to Vlad the player and I'm sorry if it read that way. I was just reminded of my huge feelings of disappointment then and my huge feelings of disappointment today. With Vlad, the feeling of losing a top five talent and player that was firmly in our reach. With Choi, the feeling of if only Tracy had given him the everyday job the last two months of the season to allow the organization a chance to assess him as a player and his future with the team. If he had tanked, fine, at least we had given him a fair shot and I would accept him being waived. Instead, Phillips plays in his stead and I'm left feeling we waived a guy with solid upside without finding out enough about him.

2006-03-24 17:55:28
234.   FirstMohican
Re: 229, Babe Ruth was sold, not waived, right?
2006-03-24 17:57:50
235.   grandcosmo
Mike Squires played 14 career games at 3B as a lefty and never made an error:

Mattingly played in 3 games at third base in 1986.

2006-03-24 18:02:15
236.   GoBears
235 Wow. Good find. I'm surprised that this would have happened so recently. Once something is in the category "everybody knows that..." it'd take a bold manager to buck convention. Either that or a meaningless game or inning.
2006-03-24 18:18:13
237.   GoBears
OK, Jon. If we're going to hope for closure, you gotta update the sidebar ASAP (you know, since you don't have other things to do in life). The presence of some of those names is sad enough. The lingering presence of dear departed, however, could make a grown man cry.
2006-03-24 18:23:39
238.   xaphor
214 - At a point in the Cricket/Rounders transition into Baseball the players ran the bases clockwise.

Good ol' Town Ball:

"...bases were run in a clockwise direction and players could be put out by swinging and missing three pitched balls or by being hit with the ball while moving between bases."

2006-03-24 18:44:46
239.   Vishal
sigh. i gotta pick a new favorite dodger now.
2006-03-24 18:49:06
240.   Bob Timmermann
There were numerous left-handed infielders (aside from first base) in the 19th century before players wore gloves. It just didn't make that much of a difference. You were just lucky to have someone who could catch the ball.
2006-03-24 18:58:25
241.   D4P
i gotta pick a new favorite dodger now.

Me too. There's not really much to choose from.

2006-03-24 18:59:34
242.   GoBears
239 Well, until reinforcements arrive from Vegas, I'll go with whichever catcher not named Alomar is playing. Either that or, believe it or not, JD Drew.

I like Nomar when he was in Boston, but it'll be hard not to blame him for his expected misuse as a first baseman.

2006-03-24 19:03:16
243.   MartinBillingsley31
I'm cringing thinking about what ned is gonna do at the trade deadline when the dodgers have a very good chance at winning the division but everyone and their mother knows that the dodgers don't have enough to make noise in the playoffs.

Who will ned trade away to get a so called impact player?
Billingsley, guzman, laroche, elbert, broxton, martin.

2006-03-24 19:05:53
244.   mathesond
Being a Jays fan, I can tell you that Tony Batista had a few homers north of the border before being waived
2006-03-24 19:06:24
245.   Sam DC
Just checking in. And I hope it's not a mistake bringing this up, since the thread seems to have cooled. But good lord Steve, I hope you can muster an apology to Jon. I've really enjoyed getting to know your online self; you're a smart and very thoughtful guy who brings a lot to the table and adds a lot to this community. But you've been pushing it for a while and tonight was just over the line, as I expect you know.

Anyhow, I hope you've gotten it out of your system and can get back in the game with a cooler head.

Overall, comments here have been stressing for a while. I really hope that -- in the words of the irrepressible Tom Boswell -- folks can bliss out some and get ready to enjoy the fast-approaching Opening Day. Maybe I'm just a schmoe, but I really don't think it's that hard to just get along in this space.

(BTW, I'll be offline near a week starting now, so I apologize for firing off a rant and then disappearing.)

2006-03-24 19:07:58
246.   Bob Timmermann
Sam's post had SWAGGER!
2006-03-24 19:14:53
247.   Winthrop
HSC goes to Boston to make room for Nomar? The Nomar trade continues to pay dividends for the Red Sox.

We hardly knew ye, Hee Seop.

2006-03-24 19:22:08
248.   Sam DC
Let me add b/f really signing off, I don't think everyone should really just get along and I certainly don't believe that it's easy to deal cheerfully with people that are being aggravating or worse. But I do think it's easy in an online forum to ignore someone who is being a jerk or a dope or whatever. And in the end, that's really all that Jon seems to ask of his guests.
2006-03-24 19:28:32
249.   Andrew Shimmin
I'm not going to defend Steve, he can do it fine by himself, but I don't know if everybody understands the reference. One of the poster who came over to snipe at oldbear was gay baiting in a thread earlier in the week. It was (as were each of his comments) deleted, so, unless you followed the thread in real time, you wouldn't have seen it.

I don't envy Jon the garbage he's had to deal with over this site, recently. And it's a little unsettling, wondering whether there is a way to stave off the vandals. Maybe a new rule against taunting? It's easy to taunt without personally attacking, or using profanity, and it's just as likely to set people off. Also, are the people who get great swaths of their comments deleted, banned? I can't keep the screennames straight.

It's presumptuous of me to write this, but everybody's thinking about it, right?

2006-03-24 19:31:36
250.   TheDictator
I honestly don't have a favorite Dodger anymore. I have always been partial to catchers. I guess I will root for Dioner Navarro before he gets waived.

Oh how I long for a more elegant and civilized age!

Before the dark times, before the empire . . .

(Please note the sarcastic humor)

Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2006-03-24 19:39:44
251.   tjshere
Amongst all the other things I've learned in this thread I've also discovered that grandcosmo (235) makes a great pinch-hitter for Bob and that there appears to be an inordinate number of lefties on this site.
2006-03-24 19:44:40
252.   capdodger
I read Theo's comments re: Choi as this:

-Choi is cheap, in fact, free.
-Choi has an option left.
-Choi has the possibility to be productve, with comps like Ortiz. It's more likely that he'll just be an average major leauger.
-The Sox have a bit of a question mark at first and third.

Several things can happen that have positive outcomes for the sox:

- Choi makes the Red Sox, hits well as a starting 1B, or PH. They profit from having a cheap options for either of those positions.
- Choi plays AAA, mashes it to a .850+ clip, and they trade him for something, which would be a profit.

2006-03-24 19:54:20
253.   Bob Timmermann
I hope you're referring to grandcosmo's handedness and not his politics.
2006-03-24 20:04:44
254.   tjshere
253 Actually, I was only referring to grandcosmo's pinch-hittingness. The handedness was directed at all of our wrong-armed 3rd basemen.
2006-03-24 20:09:27
255.   GoBears
Oh no...I just had a horrible thought.

If I'm right that the most likely victim of Boston's Hee Swipe Choi is one JT Snow, and since our GM has a fetish for mediocre, over-the-hill ex-Giants, and since our new starting 1bman is injury prone....

I can't even finish the sentence...

2006-03-24 20:11:34
256.   D4P
Gah! We thought we had dodged that bullet, but maybe it was actually a boomerang instead...
2006-03-24 20:14:21
257.   Bob Timmermann
That throwing stick of yours has boomeranged on us!

However, since Snow was signed as a free agent, the Red Sox can't trade him unti July I believe. They would have to waive him first.

At least I think that's what happened.

2006-03-24 20:14:55
258.   capdodger
2006-03-24 20:19:01
259.   GoBears
Yeah, sorry. Halloween is on AMC right now - must have stimulated scary thoughts.

Gee, Bob. I sure hope you're right. By July 1, Loney might be able to stop an LA Snow storm.

2006-03-24 20:21:29
260.   RMAPasad
Sure, Choi wouldn't gotten much chance to play had he been kept on 25 man (assuming Nomar stays healthy). But what is the sense of cutting him in order to keep both Ramon Martinez and Robles when one of them will surely have to go anyway when Izturis returns (as seems likely now) in mid-May ? With Willie Aybar also available the org has a surplus of middle IF candidates.
Sure, Ramon had a nice early ST start v. the typical ragtag pitching you see in first few weeks. But the guy is 33 yrs old with a career 88 OPS+ that even Dusty Baker couldn't find much use for.
This further looks silly in that Choi could have been stashed in AAA, since he has a remaining option year left. Yes, that might have conflicted with Loney's playing time, but 1/2 the games he could still be used at DH in Vegas.
It's not that Choi is a huge loss. He will likely never materialize into the good player that it once looked like he had the potential to become. But the possibility of him being a useful power bat in a platoon/ bench player role is still there. To cast that aside in favor of a 33 yr old journeymen MIFer, who happened to have a couple nice weeks of Spring Training, is the epitome of short-sightedness.
2006-03-24 20:33:01
261.   GoBears
260 I obviously think more of Choi than you do, but you make a great point. Even the worst case scenario for Choi is better than Martinez. And cheaper.

So either this was even dumber than I thought, or else it was a decision made not for Martinez, but for someone else. My guess is Izturis.

2006-03-24 20:39:53
262.   Marty
Hey, we might have two Pac-10 teams in the elite eight if Washington keeps this up.

I love that the announcers keep referring to UConn as the Huskies and Washington as Washington.

2006-03-24 20:43:19
263.   Bob Timmermann
And Washington is playing at home? Aren't they?
2006-03-24 20:44:37
264.   GoBears
I'm watching a "House" rerun. It's about a pitcher and steroids, anyway. Billy Packer is on my List. Even if he's not doing the game that's on now, the CBS thing makes me think about him and ruins my day.
2006-03-24 20:46:28
265.   Bob Timmermann
It's a "House" rerun so I will tell you that the first treatment won't work and the patient is lying about something.
2006-03-24 20:48:04
266.   Uncle Miltie
I have money on the huskies
2006-03-24 20:50:08
267.   D4P
Huck the Fuskies. I have UConn going all the way.
2006-03-24 20:51:11
268.   Bob Timmermann
The officials seem to be leaning to UConn.
2006-03-24 20:51:33
269.   GoBears
265. Yup. Only 10 minutes left, so we're well past that point.
2006-03-24 20:51:51
270.   RMAPasad
Martinez (or Robles) will have to go once Izturis is activated. Had Choi been kept on the 25 man instead of RM, the decision would have then come down to he or Robles once Izzy was activated. If the club felt 2 MIF backups were needed, then Choi goes. But he could still go to Vegas as opposed to the waiver wire.
Am sure the thinking was that Choi wasn't needed even as Nomar insurance. If Nomar is injured pre-Izturis return, they slide Martinez to 2b and Kent to 1b. If after Izturis' return, Kent goes to 1b, Izzy to 2nd. If the front office thinks that keeping Martinez over Choi was a good idea, they're probably also misguided enough to believe that Izturis at 2b and Kent at 1b is a good idea too.
2006-03-24 20:54:12
271.   Bob Timmermann
So now House will figure it all out with some sudden flash of inspiration.

BTW, I like the show.

2006-03-24 20:55:29
272.   MartinBillingsley31
If choi can't get any return in a trade then how can izturis?

Again i hate to think about who ned trades at the deadline to get a so called impact player.

It seems like ned doesn't have trading skills.

2006-03-24 20:55:40
273.   Uncle Miltie
Robles has some value. He can play average defense at SS and showed a decent eye at the plate. As long as he's not hitting near the top of the order, he's a fine player to have.

I have UConn winning the whole thing, but I kind of want Washington to win.

Huck the Fuskies
So you don't want either team to win?

2006-03-24 20:57:30
274.   MartinBillingsley31
It seems like ned doesn't have trading skills.

OOps i forgot about the seo trade.

2006-03-24 20:58:50
275.   D4P
I don't like shows with predictable plot formulae. Years ago, when I watched the original Law and Order, I seem to remember that pretty much every episode involved the investigators going out to investigate the crime, then trying to convince their superior that there was a case to make. The superior was always reluctant at first, then begrudingly conceded. Then the prosecutors would have to convince the DA that they had enough evidence to prosecute, with the DA also being reluctant at first, then begrudingly conceding.
2006-03-24 20:59:35
276.   D4P
If choi can't get any return in a trade then how can izturis?

Gold Glove.

2006-03-24 21:02:32
277.   GoBears
270 Yeah, that's basically my point in 132. More than losing Choi (which seemed inevitable) what bothers me is what this sort of decision tells us about the decision makers.

Could be worse. Could be Bowden.

2006-03-24 21:07:27
278.   Bob Timmermann
Verne Lundquist just said that UW toured the "State Capitol" in Washington.


Maybe this game is really being played in Olympia.

2006-03-24 21:08:40
279.   MartinBillingsley31

Gold Glove.

Wow all these labels like gold glove, all star ect. carry alot of weight.

2006-03-24 21:08:48
280.   D4P
So, can we expect an onslaught of articles from the MSM villifying Flanders for waiving a Fan Favorite?
2006-03-24 21:09:59
281.   GoBears
280. Good one.
2006-03-24 21:12:58
282.   Marty
Washington is going to run out of players. This may be the worst officiated game yet this tournament.
2006-03-24 21:13:42
283.   Bob Timmermann
Plaschke's up in Oakland and may be occupied with non-baseball matters for a while.

It will all come out in to the open on Opening Day.

There have already been a bunch of stories about how Japan's win in the WBC has shown the glories of small ball.

2006-03-24 21:17:00
284.   D4P
Is it just me, or were teams in the tournament given an extra 10 or so timeouts every game?
2006-03-24 21:23:03
285.   Jon Weisman
249 - I knew what he was referring to. Nothing like dredging up something unpleasant and offensive.

There is already a rule against taunting. I have brought it up many times and it goes back to the beginning of comments at Dodger Thoughts.

I have to admit that I haven't had to deal much with people here taunting me. That took me aback today.

I don't like talking about Steve in the third person like he's not here, when he might be reading. But Steve is sharp as a tack and I have loved his contributions here. He doesn't have to apologize to me, frankly. He can come back anytime if he can cut out the mockery. I'd be thrilled to forget the whole thing. But rightly or wrongly, this site is too important to me to tolerate people actively trying to cause trouble.

I don't know if people remember this, but I even scolded Bob once for a comment he made that I thought was out of line. I've had to apologize myself for comments from time to time. I don't expect people to be perfect. But if someone is going out of their way to be difficult, then I ask that they just go somewhere else.

It has been a difficult week. I don't know if the people who have been taunting Oldbear or other commenters, who have been uncivil when it's been very clear how unwelcome that is, realize how much they are hurting me each time they do it, but they really are hurting me. This site is a major investment for me, and by coming here and tearing things up, they are tearing me up. It's like I have an open house going and they're turning over my furniture and yelling at my guests. I can't imagine what would make people think that is okay.

As I think I said before, I'm sure people are mystified why I haven't done more banning. I guess I believe in the kind of community that is here, and I'm trying to convince people of its merits. So unless people are truly out of control, I'm trying to give them a chance to change.

But from now on I am going to fight to keep it clean in here, even if that means chasing away new commenters, and even if I have to take on commenters I have grown to truly enjoy. All I can do is beg people not to put me in that situation, whether it means playing along or hitting the road.

2006-03-24 21:36:23
286.   Uncle Miltie
2006-03-24 21:36:40
287.   D4P
These games are amazing!
2006-03-24 21:38:49
288.   natepurcell
the huskies will advance tonight!
2006-03-24 21:39:22
289.   D4P
The Huskies will not advance tonight!
2006-03-24 21:41:13
290.   D4P
I'm starting to feel like it has been ordained that I win my pool. Between LSU, UCLA, Villanova, and UConn (i.e. my Final Four teams), the stars are really lining up.
2006-03-24 21:41:44
291.   natepurcell
this tourney has been amazing this year.

Memphis, the team i want to win it all, is still in and have looked relatively sharp this whole tourney.

and why do i want memphis to win? Because that team is soo badass and gangster (and the young adult in me comes out).

2006-03-24 21:42:59
292.   Uncle Miltie
Not having Bobby Jones is really hurting Washington. I smell a Rudy Gay take over coming up.
2006-03-24 21:43:52
293.   natepurcell
UCLA will have no answer for rodney carney.
2006-03-24 21:45:13
294.   D4P
I had UCLA beating Pittsburgh in the Elite 8.
2006-03-24 21:45:19
295.   natepurcell
rudy gay has been such a dissapointment this year. He was suppose to take off this year, being the superstar on uconn and solidfying himself as the #1 overall pick.

instead, he has been inconsistent and doesnt show up in big games.

2006-03-24 21:46:24
296.   Uncle Miltie
That is one of the worst calls I've ever seen! These refs stink.
2006-03-24 21:46:27
297.   natepurcell
wow terrible call. goaltending refs!

they clearly have been playing favorites all night.

2006-03-24 21:47:14
298.   Marty
This has to be the worst officiated game. No goal tending?
2006-03-24 21:47:58
299.   Uncle Miltie
295- yea, but defensively, he's a monster. Look at how Charlie V did at UConn and compare it to how he's doing in the NBA. Gay is going to be a superstar in the NBA.
2006-03-24 21:48:34
300.   Bob Timmermann
Illinois fans might bring up the game they played against Arizona a couple years back as being worse. Illinois had six guys foul out in that one.
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2006-03-24 21:50:19
301.   D4P
Like I said: It has been ordained that I win my pool. There's nothing the refs can do. It's beyond their power.
2006-03-24 21:52:11
302.   Uncle Miltie
So Appleby is going to hit 2 big threes to win the game for Washington?
2006-03-24 21:52:12
303.   Marty
Well, this proves that 5 on 7 can't win
2006-03-24 21:53:10
304.   natepurcell
Illinois fans might bring up the game they played against Arizona a couple years back as being worse. Illinois had six guys foul out in that one.!!!!

2006-03-24 21:53:34
305.   Linkmeister
300 Thanks, Bob. You had to remind me of that. Illinois still won in OT after UofA blew a 14-pt lead with four minutes to go.
2006-03-24 21:54:04
306.   natepurcell
what are you doing roy!!! ahhhh!
2006-03-24 21:54:28
307.   natepurcell
oops, roy didnt make the pass. who made the pass!?!?
2006-03-24 21:54:57
308.   Marty
Even though the refs are at fault, UConn is officially on my list.
2006-03-24 21:55:29
309.   natepurcell
Thanks, Bob. You had to remind me of that. Illinois still won in OT after UofA blew a 14-pt lead with four minutes to go.

no that didnt happen at all..... (blocks out memory of biggest choke job ever)

2006-03-24 21:55:36
310.   Bob Timmermann
No, not last year. This was in 2001. Arizona won that game.
2006-03-24 21:59:29
311.   Bob Timmermann
The PA announcer in Washington sounds very nasally. He sounds like what I sound like if I were the PA announcer.
2006-03-24 22:00:37
312.   D4P
My voice doesn't sound nasally to me in my head, but it sounds nasally when it's recorded. I don't like it.
2006-03-24 22:04:31
313.   Bob Timmermann
I thought I had a deep voice. Then I realized that I sound a lot more like David Paymer than Orson Welles.
2006-03-24 22:12:10
314.   GoBears
You guys both sound fine to me.

In my head, everyone sounds like either James Earl Jones or Jim Rome, depending on the content of their prose.

Except for Christina. She sounds like Kathleen Turner. Smokey.

2006-03-24 22:21:29
315.   natepurcell
Bob sounds like sean connery to me.
2006-03-24 22:31:42
316.   GoBears
Maybe if he'd named his new cat Galore, instead of Casey.
2006-03-24 22:35:07
317.   D4P
Or "Octo"
2006-03-24 22:52:22
318.   Vishal
i felt ripped off by that basketball game. that's now 2 seattle-area teams that have gotten seriously jobbed by the refs this year.
2006-03-24 22:56:24
319.   Fearing Blue
I'm very concerned about the power potential for this lineup and waiving Choi certainly doesn't help.

Projected Starting Lineup:

Rafael Furcal ~15 HR
Kenny Lofton ~5 HR
J.D. Drew ~30 HR (if healthy)
Jeff Kent ~25 HR (if health)
Nomar Garciaparra ~20 HR (if healthy)
Bill Mueller ~10 HR
Jose Cruz Jr. ~20 HR (if played)
Dioner Navarro ~10 HR


Olmedo Saenz ~10 HR
Oscar Robles ~5 HR
Ramon Martinez ~3 HR
Sandy Alomar Jr. ~2 HR
Jason Repko ~10 JR
Ricky Ledee ~10 HR

Total: ~175 HR

Last year, that would have ranked 12th in the MLB, but that seems like an extremely optimistic scenario based on the 3 (if healthy)s, 1 (if played), and similar playing time for bench players as last year (an inherent contradiction). I'm guessing without significant changes, we end up pretty close to the 149 HR we hit last year. Of course, this year it will be 149 clutchity, veteran-savvy homeruns.

If this team is significantly better than last year's team, it will primarily be due to pitching.

My new favorite player is Hong-Chih Kuo. Let's hope I'm not a bad luck charm.

2006-03-24 23:08:49
320.   Uncle Miltie
i felt ripped off by that basketball game. that's now 2 seattle-area teams that have gotten seriously jobbed by the refs this year.
I hope you aren't talking about Gonzaga for 2 reasons:
1. They are in Eastern Washington which isn't close to Seattle
2. UCLA was the getting screwed. Gonzaga flat out blew it.

I feel sorry for Romar (who might be the best coach in the Pac 10). His team should have won the game. Mike Jensen is an absolute moron. You never foul at the end of the game. Let the guy have the layup. I've never liked the guy. It's stinks that Washington had to lose this game, especially since Brandon Roy and Bobby Jones are seniors. Jamaal Williams looked great (he's only a freshman) and I'm sure Romar recruited some top talents.

2006-03-24 23:14:12
321.   Andrew Shimmin
285- I sat on 249 comment for a while, but not long enough. You obviously didn't need the reference pointed out, so I don't know what I was trying to help.

I'm the wrong guy to take up this (or any other) cause, since I've publically apologized three times, by my count, for being a jerk in your comments section. I think I've got an idea of how hard the ugly days are on you, and it's clear that you're on the case.

I spent the last three hours en route to, waiting at, and returning from the UPS hub in Ontario (couldn't get the UCon/WASH game on the radio) thinking mostly about how much I hate UPS and how much it would suck if Dodger Thoughts stopped being what it is. If not being a jerk is the only price you're asking us to pay, it's a bargain.

2006-03-24 23:51:23
322.   natepurcell
okay i just watched the laker highlights from tonight.

can someone tell me how kwame brown caught the ball in mid air, with one hand, and threw it down from the alley hoop by odom?

this is mr small hands butterfingers here.

2006-03-24 23:59:58
323.   Uncle Miltie
More than any other player, Choi symbolized DePodesta's statistics-driven evaluations. The left-hander hit with power and walked frequently. He also was below average defensively and lacked baseball instincts that are difficult to quantify.

I hope Henson is joking. Choi is going to start the season in the minors. Navarro likely won't go on the DL, which means that Alomar won't be starting on opening day.

2006-03-25 00:03:50
324.   natepurcell
gurnick still says alomars going to be opening day catcher even if navarro is with the big club.
2006-03-25 00:19:29
325.   Uncle Miltie
Whether it's Navarro or Martin, the Opening Day catcher could be Sandy Alomar Jr.

That's Gurnick speculating. He is a very poor beat writer. I'm surprised that the LA Times hasn't inquired about his availability.

2006-03-25 05:59:17
326.   Jon Weisman
321 - I wasn't faulting you.
2006-03-25 06:49:48
327.   Vishal
[320] i was talking about the seahawks in the superbowl, actually.
2006-03-25 06:54:51
328.   oldbear
Colletti and Kupchak...LA deserves them both.
2006-03-25 07:12:57
329.   oldbear
*Jose Cruz Jr. ~20 HR (if played)
Dioner Navarro ~10 HR
Jason Repko ~10 HR
Ricky Ledee ~10 HR
Nomar Garciaparra ~20 HR*

Navarro doesnt have much power.
Repko/Ledee I cant see them hitting 20HR's.
Cruz Jr might.
Nomar hasnt hit 20 playing in Fenway/Wrigley. Chances of him doing it here?

Colletti is just. Wow. Gave away Bradley, Choi, AP for nothing. Trades Tiff/Jax for a middle reliever (which I didnt mind but you'd think you could get more for those two guys), signed Tomko, Nomar, Lofton...Is going to have Ramon Martinez and Repko both make the team. Along with Alomar.

I'm surprised Jon hasnt called a spade a spade. Maybe its the 'benefit of the doubt'. But I see nothing remotely close between Colletti's player evaluation process, and DePo's/Beane's/Epstein/any sabre GM. Ned is just about as old school as they come. He reminds me of Omar Minaya (without the budget) or Bill Bavasi of the Mariners. I think the Dodgers are going to follow those two teams paths. Either be really bad, or be average but with a massive payroll.

2007 looks bleak unless they are counting on throwing all the rookies onto the team at once.

2006-03-25 07:52:44
330.   thinkingblue

That's why Saenz won't be playing everyday, or anywhere close.

2006-03-25 07:57:11
331.   thinkingblue

Ok, please explain this, if you are so sure that Nomar won't hit 20+ BOMBS just because he doesn't play in Fenway.

How did Jeff Kent do it last year? I mean, he came from Houston! That's like the ultimate right handed hitter's power park, to dodger stadium, and he still hit the same as the year before.

Good hitters find ways to keep their stats no matter the ballpark. Nomar can always pump up his stats at Chase Field, Coors Field, Citizens Bank, and all the hitters ball parks.

2006-03-25 08:01:36
332.   Marty
Tony Jackson really flushed everything he didn't like about Choi out of his system in today's story. It was something.
2006-03-25 08:18:23
333.   D4P
The Dodgers finally rid themselves of burdensome first baseman Hee-Seop Choi on Friday when he was claimed off waivers by Boston.

Burdensome? Burdensome?

2006-03-25 21:01:38
334.   SMY
332 I especially liked the part about the Red Sox trying to trade for him, but Ned electing to give him away for free. Number one, Graffanino is better than both Martinez and Robles, if that is in fact the player coming back. How does he not fit? And if he really doesn't, why not just ask for some low-level prospect? Brilliant plan, I love it.
2006-03-25 21:05:31
335.   fanerman
I missed out on this info (spring break, whoo!) until late last night and was away from a computer until now. There's nothing new I can possibly add. But I'm glad Choi is on a team that appreciates his talents. I said a long time ago that if he leaves, I hope he ends up in Boston (since Oakland would have a bit of a logjam at 1B). I'm sad he's gone, but I'm glad he's there.

P.S. And I wish Theo were GM.

2006-03-26 04:44:37
336.   TheDictator

I harped about this earlier. He could have at least got something for Choi's 15 home runs.

But he got nothing in return and simply gave Choi away. It just goes to show the brilliance of Mr. Ned. He outsmarted Epstein!

2006-03-26 04:51:31
337.   TheDictator
Game of Shadows

I am almost finished with "Game of Shadows". Not to give too much away ( already has), I found something of interest to Dodger fans.

Pages 35-36 cover how Peter Magowan financed AT&T park without public funds. However, in order to pay the mortgage he had to draw 3 million per year. Thus, there became an intense focus on winning now to pay the bills.

I am sure almost all of you see where this is going. Mr. Ned, the man who wins now in order to draw enough people to pay the mortgage. The question is, what player will he overpay for in order to get a gate attraction?

BTW, who is a free agent after this season?

Comment status: comments have been closed. Baseball Toaster is now out of business.