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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Knock Knock Knocking on Heaven's Door
2006-05-19 09:35
by Jon Weisman

The Angels come to Dodger Stadium tonight a troubled team. Their record has fallen to 17-24, tied for third-worst in the American League.

Thursday's 8-4, 10-inning loss to Toronto ended in the 11 p.m. neighborhood, which meant that many morning papers didn't have postgame quotes. But plenty went on in the clubhouse after the final out, as this write-thru from Mike DiGiovanna of the Times illustrates:

As reporters questioned Manager Mike Scioscia after an 8-4, 10-inning loss to the Toronto Blue Jays, a game in which the Angels had the potential winning run at third base with one out in the eighth inning and no outs in the ninth and failed to score, a heated argument between two or more players could be heard from the shower area.

As the dispute spilled into the clubhouse, Tim Mead, Angels vice president of communications, shut the door to Scioscia's office, but moments later, the screaming voice of Darin Erstad, on the disabled list but still very much the team's leader, could be heard loud and clear.

"This is going to stop right … now!" Erstad yelled. "There's going to be no finger-pointing, I don't care who you are! It's over! If we go down, we're all going down together! We're going to pull for everybody! No talking behind anyone's back! Let's pull for each other! Let's go!"

I'm a fan of the Angels when it comes to the American League, so you'll see no gloating from me over their struggles. But at a minimum, the conceit that the Scioscia style of baseball will always prevail is being tested. Maybe Erstad's appeal will become a rallying point for the team. Maybe it is just alarm bells going off on a sinking ship. Probably, it's just a moment in time into which more will be read than is appropriate.

Before I read the postgame accounts, I was astonished by this sequence of events from the eighth inning of the game. In a 4-4 tie, with Angel pinch-runner Erick Aybar on third base and one out, catcher Mike Napoli attempted to squeeze him home. Napoli only had three career sacrifices in six-plus professional seasons, according to DiGiovanna, making it less than automatic that he could get the bunt down. Additionally, Napoli had homered one inning earlier and has been hitting well throughout his callup from the minors, making it less than automatic that he would get an easy pitch to bunt - or that it made sense for him to try, period.

I consider it only a parenthetical point that Napoli popped up his bunt into a double play. I know we like to think everyone in a moral universe should be able to help old ladies across the street, love thy neighbor and lay down a bunt, but life just isn't like that.

The Angels have had some bad luck this year. But like any other team, some of their problems are of their own creation. They're solvable - and of course, it would be just like the Dodgers to help the Angels out this weekend. However, without questioning anyone's effort or work ethic at all, maybe it's good that this losing, however temporary, will remove some of the gloss over what the Angels do wrong.

Comments (110)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2006-05-19 09:53:56
1.   Bob Timmermann
Momma take this bunt away from me.
I can't use it anymore.
We're losing now, everyone can see
We feel like we're knockin' on heaven's door
2006-05-19 09:56:09
2.   blue22
you'll see no gloating from me over their struggles.

You're a bigger man than me, Jon Weisman. This delights me.

Erstad's quote of "I don't care who you are!" is interesting. Kind of implies that one of the Angels veterans is getting a little snippy. Maybe Lackey, though his start was nothing to write home about.

2006-05-19 09:59:21
3.   Vishal
[2] i for one am glad to see some of the gloss (glaus?) removed. but i don't need to gloat too much; my A's are in 1st and that's all that matters.
2006-05-19 10:10:15
4.   Jon Weisman
Meanwhile, in Pittsburgh, more interesting discussion about Jim Tracy.

2006-05-19 10:20:30
5.   D4P
Tough to score from 3rd with Mr. Productive Out on the DL.
2006-05-19 10:21:58
6.   Marty
It sounded like maybe Figgins was gettin Figgy with Kennedy for his weak fly to the outfield win the ninth.

I say again, Mickey Hatcher needs to go. I think his hitting philosophy is close your eyes and swing as hard as you can.

2006-05-19 10:27:27
7.   bhsportsguy
4 - Its pretty hard to say anything definitive on that situation given the record but I will say that time as shown that you can't win anywhere without talent. I think the surprise is how little if any honeymoon Tracy got in Pittsburgh.
2006-05-19 10:31:49
8.   Vishal
[5]] i know there's at least one website which refers to a productive out as an "ersty", but i forget which.
2006-05-19 10:32:46
9.   Jon Weisman
7 - I agree with you.

I can't imagine losing alone would end the honeymoon - people know the Pirates are low on talent. I'm assuming it must be the way the Pirates are losing that has raised the eyebrows of the press and the tempers of the fans.

2006-05-19 10:33:19
10.   sanchez101
6. I think Hatcher's philosophy is a little more complicated than that, they did win a World Series and consecutive division titles.

Ive heard from many color commentators that when a team that lives by the homerun doesnt get homeruns they cant score because they cant play small ball. Last night was an example of a team that relies on contact hitting and when the hits dont fall in, they cant score either. The Angels as a team are hitting .245, second worst in the league, infront of TB and ahead of KC. Batting average can be pretty fluky and the Angels are not a .246 hitting team, last year they hit .270 and the year before they hit .282. Eventually the Angels' hits will fall in and they'll hit .300 for a month or so, forcing us to hear about the wonders of small ball.

2006-05-19 10:35:20
11.   blue22
I got the feeling that Pittsburgh thought of "Tracyball" as "how to win without talent".
2006-05-19 10:36:28
12.   bhsportsguy
On the Angels, if they don't hit .275 or above as a team, they can't win because the team does not walk or hit home runs. And you can't always count on getting a single, stolen base, ground ball to 2B and a fly ball to score runs every game.

Last year's team was similar to the Padres in the sense that they had one really good run and then played around .500 for about 80% of the season until the last 2 weeks when they beat up the A's and the Rangers to take the division.

But they got great pitching that kept them in games. But their lack of offense should not be a surprise, when I last looked at their 2 corner infield spots, catcher and DH, they were hitting about .200 as a group with an on base and slugging pct. of .300.

That quote in yesterday's UTK about the Angels waiting until after the draft to decide on if they are going to call up their kids and let them play was interesting.

Its funny how no one talks about Finley for Alfonzo deal, not that Steve is killing the ball but he is playing everyday and contributing, not much power but certainly doing more than Alfonzo.

2006-05-19 10:39:09
13.   sanchez101
9. I think the whole Tracyball myth led Pittsburghians(???) to believe that Tracy had some unique game plan and strategy that would allow the Pirates to play better than their talent. After watching the games theyve realised that Tracy doesnt really bring anything special to the table, and theyre stuck with the same bad team.

or, perhaps Tracy just doesnt take to loosing very well. He reminds me of Larry Brown in how he tends to deflect blame when the team is loosing and that becomes tiresome really, really quick.

2006-05-19 10:39:59
14.   Nammy
Speaking of the Angels, anyone know where someone can get their hands on any "Los Angeles Dodgers of Los Angeles" gear?
2006-05-19 10:40:27
15.   Jon Weisman
11 - That's certainly how it was marketed - funny since Tracy had the gall to say last September that the Dodgers didn't have the talent to win even if everyone had stayed healthy.
2006-05-19 10:49:14
16.   bhsportsguy
At the end of 2004, both local teams had a decision to make regarding their 3B, one had a player who had been hurt a lot for the last 2 years but had a track record of performance if healthy that would put him near the top of 3B in the league. The other team had a player who had the word "potential" stamped on him for 5 years until he had an MVP type year leading his team to their first post-season in 8 years.

The first team decided right away that they were not going to resign their 3B and did not even offer arbitration to him, while the second did offer arbitration and continued to negotiate a possible contract.

Both teams started 2005 with different 3B and they are still trying to fill that hole. As for the players, Troy Glaus has not suffered any major setbacks and has hit over 50 HRs and driven him 120+ runs in 1 1/4 seasons while Adrian has not yet adjusted to either his contract or new league.

You can certainly argue that based on what contracts those two players eventually received, they were overpriced but just another interesting comparison of something similar that went on with both the Angels and Dodgers in recent years.

2006-05-19 10:58:01
17.   Vishal
[13] pittsburghers?
2006-05-19 11:00:48
18.   Marty
5 I like to think that I coined that term.
2006-05-19 11:01:54
19.   Bob Timmermann
"Pittsburgher" seems to be the prevailing form.
2006-05-19 11:03:24
20.   blue22
2006-05-19 11:06:30
21.   bluegold
Would you like fries with the burghers?
2006-05-19 11:06:40
22.   Johnson
Jon, you mentioned that you intend to write about the Dodgers' walks at some point. With the season 1/4 over and the Dodgers 1 BB away from the major league lead, what do we make of Little's "We don't do that Oakland thing here" statement? I'm just having a little moment of cognitive dissonance, I guess.
2006-05-19 11:10:14
23.   Bob Timmermann
The Pirates own marketing slogan this year is "We Will."

Personally, I feel very bad for Pirates fans. For starters, I've met some people who are Pirates fans and they're very nice. (Warning: small sample size!)

The Pirates were also the first team outside of L.A. that I rooted for. I think that was because, in the first year I followed baseball closely (1971), the Pirates beat the Giants in the LCS (YEA!) and they beat the Orioles in the World Series. I didn't know much about the Orioles except my older brothers told me not to root for them. I liked the Pirates fuzzy helmets and very odd shade of yellow on their caps then.

I even liked the 1979 "We Are Family" Team, although it was probably hopped up on so many different types of drugs that I'm surprised that Chuck Tanner didn't try to pick the roster by checking the size of his players' pupils.

And then I really wanted one of the three NL East champion teams managed by Leyland to win. But they lost to the 1990 Reds (Marge Schott! Lou Piniella! Rob Dibble! Each a bigger jerk than the other). And then they lost those two LCS series to the Braves. Very sad.

Now they are a hopeless team playing in the nicest park in the majors.

It's beyond putting lipstick on a pig. It's like putting lipstick on a side of a bacon.

2006-05-19 11:12:47
24.   blue22
22 - Give it up for Eddie Murray!

Is swinging 3-0 a manager thing (strategy) or a hitting coach thing (approach)?

2006-05-19 11:13:15
25.   Marty
Pittsburgh has always been my second team to root for because my father was from there. It's hard to root for a Tracy team though.
2006-05-19 11:15:39
26.   Jacob L
13 Funny, the Larry Brown comparison. I was thinking it was about time for Tracy's Pitino moment. Bill Madlock is not walking through that door. Edd Ott is not walking through that door.
2006-05-19 11:16:46
27.   bhsportsguy
Is this a glimmer of hope for those in the Hochevar camp, for more on the draft check out

On the Dodgers and Luke Hochevar, this is from today's

"We're cautiously optimistic that there's an outside chance (to sign him)," Dodgers scouting director Logan White said. "I've seen his first two starts and I'll go back and see him again. Then (GM) Ned (Colletti) and I will get our heads together and see what we can do."

2006-05-19 11:17:06
28.   Jon Weisman
I always sort of liked the Pirates before 2006 as well.
2006-05-19 11:19:16
29.   Jon Weisman
22 - What do I make of that statement? I could make a hat, or a brooch, or a pterodactyl ...
2006-05-19 11:20:19
30.   Jon Weisman
27 - Thanks for that, BH.

Here's a link:

2006-05-19 11:26:24
31.   bhsportsguy
Jon - since you are in the "entertainment" industry, what did you think of Ms. Barton's disclosure about her demise prior to the show being aired. I know there are confidentiality clauses in reality shows, what happens in the scripted world.
2006-05-19 11:28:31
32.   bhsportsguy
29 - I think there a lot of players saying that they picked the wrong year to quit amphetamines
2006-05-19 11:31:13
33.   Jon Weisman
31 - I don't know about the legalities, but I refuse to watch commercials or "scenes from next week" for shows I care about, so it would make me furious if I watched "The O.C."

Even the Griddle posted something in its comments about next week's "Lost" that I could have done without ...

2006-05-19 11:35:46
34.   Bob Timmermann
The Griddle's "Lost" thread comes with full disclosure warnings.

No guarantee of people not spoiling the plot is implied.

Guarantee not valid in New Mexico and the Maritime Provinces of Canada.

2006-05-19 11:39:07
35.   Jon Weisman
31 - You inspired me to read about last night's OC finale. I find this development interesting:

"Seth and Summer will attend separate schools in Providence."

As in Providence College and Brown? Are the kids' needs and desires so specific that they would go all that way, but to separate schools? One school wouldn't have provided enough storylines - they have to create two separate school environments?

2006-05-19 11:40:35
36.   Jon Weisman
34 - The headline says "'Lost' thread - IF YOU'VE ALREADY WATCHED"

I had watched. I didn't know I had to watch an episode that hadn't aired yet ...

2006-05-19 11:42:34
37.   Bob Timmermann
Perhaps you were watching in the Maritimes?
2006-05-19 11:43:15
38.   Jon Weisman
2006-05-19 11:45:56
39.   Bob Timmermann
I promise that next week's "Lost" thread will have no speculation about the following episode!
2006-05-19 11:46:56
40.   Penarol1916
35. Actually it's RISD and Brown. It came about because these idiot kids only applied to one school, Brown, and after Seth was rejected, in order to stay close to Summer he got into RISD based on the comic book he created last year. God that show got bad after it's first season, the death of Mischa Barton's character is the only thing that give me hope.
2006-05-19 11:47:00
41.   Bob Timmermann
I just realized that I'm going to the Dodgers game next Wednesday. I'm going to be up late after that game.
2006-05-19 11:49:29
42.   Jon Weisman
40 - Wacky.
2006-05-19 11:51:49
43.   Penarol1916
42. Oh, incredibly wacky, basically this season has been an perfect example of lazy writing by Josh Schwartze. I'm alright though, since most of my office is gone to watch the Cubs/Sox game.
2006-05-19 12:02:28
44.   underdog
14 Anaheim?

27 Thanks - a glimmer is better than no hope, though I'm still a little pessimistic about it.

2006-05-19 12:45:24
45.   blue22
44 - He's looking for Los Angeles Dodgers of Los Angeles.

14 - Try Google. I'm sure you could find something if you were willing to order it off the internet.

2006-05-19 12:53:16
46.   scareduck
23 - I'm still laughing. A side of bacon.
2006-05-19 12:59:49
47.   Vishal
[23] i'm with you in spirit bob. i liked the pirates ever since i was a kid, with andy van slyke et al. i'd like to root for them now, and i would except for the jim tracy schadenfreude factor. i have a good friend who's a pirates fan, and i feel bad for him, but if you can't mercilessly mock your friends, then what's the point of friends anyway?
2006-05-19 13:00:42
48.   blue22
45 - Actually Google stinks for this particular request. It doesn't account for the two sets of LA's, so you just get a bunch of standard Dodgers gear.
2006-05-19 13:01:06
49.   underdog
45 I know, I was making a lame attempt at a parallel universe sort of joke. Well, in a parallel universe it was funny, anyway. Sigh, I need lunch.
2006-05-19 13:02:36
50.   blue22
49 - Sorry, I just got done with lunch. Maybe it muted my sense of humor.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2006-05-19 13:02:47
51.   underdog
Ah crap. I was excited because I thought I'd get to see the Dodgers-Angels Fox telecast tomorrow afternoon, forgetting that I live in the Bay Area where instead I get... the scintillating Giants-A's game. SIGH.
2006-05-19 13:23:45
52.   3 tacos de asada por favor

I find when I finish working out, My brain works alittle better.

2006-05-19 13:25:09
53.   3 tacos de asada por favor

well atleast you'll be watching history. IF he hits it today.

2006-05-19 13:40:16
54.   JoeyP
Not sure if this has been posted yet, but Lance Carter is back on the 25-active, and Osoria has been demoted.
2006-05-19 13:44:43
55.   King of the Hobos
54 Hopefully our starters can get through more than 5 innings against the Angels' offense so he won't be needed
2006-05-19 13:50:28
56.   Jacob L
I guess the justification will be that Lance worked out whatever his problem were in the minors, so now he gets to reclaim his spot. If, on the other hand, the problem turns out to be that he's not good at pitching, then I hope we'll have the sense to cut bait.

So is he now out of options?

2006-05-19 13:52:03
57.   Marty
Carter's back? Bad start to my weekend.
2006-05-19 13:52:12
58.   Inside Baseball
Apparently the Dodgers are. :(
2006-05-19 13:52:55
59.   scareduck
55 - the way the Angels are hitting these days, and considering how depleted their lineup will be in an NL environment, even Brett Tomko and Aaron Sele ought to be able to get complete game shutouts.
2006-05-19 13:53:37
60.   Jacob L
Also, the stunning realization yesterday that Scott Erickson is pitching for the NYY left me a bit more circumspect about bullpen filler.
2006-05-19 13:53:46
61.   scareduck
56 - he has been undeniably been pitching well for Vegas under trying circumstances in the hitter-friendly PCL.

But he still stinks.

2006-05-19 13:56:09
62.   3 tacos de asada por favor

alot of people have posted that he's our new version of Carrara, He was pretty good at Vegas, so let's see how he dose in blue.

2006-05-19 13:57:58
63.   blue22
62 - so let's see how he dose in blue.

Where were you in April?

2006-05-19 13:58:28
64.   Marty
Please, I've seen enough versions of Carrara to last a lifetime.
2006-05-19 13:58:41
65.   LAT
They won't have to go far. RISD and Brown are right next door to each other, as in across the street. PC Friars are further away in a not-so-nice part of Providence that was neglected by Mayor Buddy Cianci before he went to jail. . .for the second time.
2006-05-19 14:00:33
66.   Steve
Who killed Dusty Baker and put Neifi! ninth in the lineup? Not that it matters.
2006-05-19 14:00:57
67.   3 tacos de asada por favor
actually I've only seen him pitch once or twice before, he wasn't good he, wasn't bad, just average. what? was he that bad?
2006-05-19 14:02:04
68.   King of the Hobos
64 Then just be grateful that they didn't bring up the real Carrara
2006-05-19 14:02:22
69.   Jacob L
67 Yes.
2006-05-19 14:04:50
70.   LAT
I suspect Pirate fans opted to focus on the Dodgers 2004 season and ignore 2005 in evaluating Tracy. In additon, they probably believed he was victimized by a newbie GM and befuddled owner. In other words, like most of us they saw only what they wanted to see, the rose and not the thorns.
2006-05-19 14:05:43
71.   JoeyP
Hopefully Broxton doesnt have a bad game or the bullpen could end up being Beimel, Carrara, Saito, Hamulack, Carter, and Baez.
2006-05-19 14:06:50
72.   Steve
I suspect Pirate fans opted to focus on the Dodgers 2004 season and ignore 2005 in evaluating Tracy.

How would that have helped?

2006-05-19 14:07:10
73.   King of the Hobos
71 Can't forget Sele/Perez
2006-05-19 14:07:24
74.   3 tacos de asada por favor
Cedeno, the cubbies SS has a cannon for an arm.(really like his arm)
2006-05-19 14:07:43
75.   Jacob L
Yeah, since coming to Pittsburgh is, obviously, an ideal situation.
2006-05-19 14:08:44
76.   Blu2
What's odds on Aybar starting? When is Repko off the DL?
2006-05-19 14:11:19
77.   thinkblue0

It still blows my mind that we have Hamulack and Carter on the squad...there's nothing to justify it. Just go get someone off the waiver wire, they might stink too but at least you're trying other options rather than running those two guys out there when you KNOW they're going to stink it up.

2006-05-19 14:12:41
78.   JoeyP
I'm not sure why Hamulack/Carter are higher than Osoria on the bullpen totem pole. They all might not be any good, but at least Osoria has age on his side.
2006-05-19 14:14:11
79.   King of the Hobos
78 Maybe Ned doesn't like 11 fingered men?
2006-05-19 14:17:13
80.   3 tacos de asada por favor

there Colletti's boys.

2006-05-19 14:18:12
81.   Jacob L
77 I kind of suspect that the days when you could find some journeyman on any street corner to pitch middle innings are behind us. Those days (the Carrara era) ended last week when Jeff Fassero retired. Not to beat it into the ground, but when the Yankees pulled a card from the deck, they got Erickson.

We, do, however have the option of going with younger guys with higher ceilings. Brox, Kuo, Osoria etal. Yeah,they will definitely blow some games, but at least there's the chance, if not the likelihood, that they will improve.

2006-05-19 14:19:22
82.   JoeyP
That might be a good thing.
Could you stomach trading prospects for Alfonseca at the deadline? Me neither.
2006-05-19 14:19:24
83.   Johnson
79 My name is Ned Colletti! You killed my bullpen. Prepare to die.
2006-05-19 14:19:26
84.   Jon Weisman
56 - No, options are done on an annual basis. An option can be used any number of times in a given year.
2006-05-19 14:19:33
85.   3 tacos de asada por favor
5-1 white sox, Maddux is having "one of those days" I guess.
2006-05-19 14:21:02
86.   Vishal
[80] this is starting to feel like whack-a-mole, but... "they're Colletti's boys"

[81] why do you think that is? are hitters just better now, so a mediocre pitcher is going to be made to pay more often than not?

2006-05-19 14:21:09
87.   3 tacos de asada por favor

"We, do, however have the option of going with younger guys with higher ceilings. Brox, Kuo, Osoria etal. Yeah,they will definitely blow some games, but at least there's the chance, if not the likelihood, that they will improve."

great point.

2006-05-19 14:22:04
88.   Marty
83 Nice work.
2006-05-19 14:23:00
89.   3 tacos de asada por favor

note to self it's spelled they're ; )

2006-05-19 14:25:45
90.   Jacob L
81 My theory is that with the increasing popularity of 11 and 12 man staffs, every competent and semi-competent reliever is gainfully employed. The waiver-ees and non-roster invites are pretty much just guys that were stinking it up in their most recent gig.
2006-05-19 14:26:14
91.   Johnson
88 Thanks! If it's work, do I get paid?
2006-05-19 14:26:19
92.   Jacob L
90 was re 86
2006-05-19 14:31:21
93.   3 tacos de asada por favor
Greg Miller is moving up to triple-A I think he'll be a sept. call up, who I'd like to see go down Hamulak, although he did pitch a good game on Wed.
2006-05-19 14:32:47
94.   blue22
93 - If Hamulack makes it to Sept, we're in trouble.

Of course, he's no longer last man on the staff, now that Carter's back.

2006-05-19 14:34:16
95.   Jon Weisman
I still think Hamulack goes down when Gagne returns. But if Carter doesn't do well, it could be him.
2006-05-19 14:35:13
96.   3 tacos de asada por favor
Carter can redeem him self, but he has to have pin point control.
2006-05-19 14:37:41
97.   Jon Weisman
Game thread is open.
2006-05-19 14:37:42
98.   Fallout
81 Jacob L

I didn't know that Fassero retired. He has something left in the tank. Alou didn't use him right.

2006-05-19 14:38:02
99.   blue22
96 - True, his walks were at a career high level this year, but somehow asking Lance Carter to throw more strikes seems like a recipe for disaster.
2006-05-19 14:40:34
100.   Jacob L
98 I guess he was actally just DFA'ed.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2006-05-19 14:40:44
101.   Daniel Zappala
If it's any consolation, neither Jackson nor Tiffany have done well for the Rays so far. WHIPs of 1.53 and 2.17, respectively.
2006-05-19 14:41:17
102.   LAT
72. Steve, Kool-Aid is a very powerful drink for those who chose to imbibe.
2006-05-19 14:44:12
103.   3 tacos de asada por favor

not in My computer it's not, I guess it hasn't down loaded or something.

2006-05-19 14:45:37
104.   Jon Weisman
Hit refresh, I guess.
2006-05-19 14:49:09
105.   3 tacos de asada por favor

throwing 83-85 miles an hour will do that to you.

2006-05-19 14:49:47
106.   3 tacos de asada por favor

I did bro. I'll try it again.

2006-05-19 14:59:46
107.   underdog
Sigh, I go to lunch, do some work, come back here, and we're talking about the bullpen again. Have you no sense of decency, sirs, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency? ;-)

Btw, on that topic: Perspective check: Jeff Fassero, Scott Erickson, etc.

2006-05-19 15:06:50
108.   Steve
I don't like Kool-aid. It interferes with my thetans.
2006-05-19 15:30:32
109.   Vishal
[108] but do you know the truth about psychology?
2006-05-19 15:33:46
110.   Linkmeister
107 By damn, you got that odd sequence of verb/subject correct. It looked funny to me, but I was about four years old at the time. ;)

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