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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
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4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
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Brad Penny, Close Up
2006-05-24 08:15
by Jon Weisman

From Sky Kalkman of the Hardball Times:

Penny's home-run rate has been amazing so far in 2006 - he's only given up two home runs in 53.1 innings. Keeping the ball in the park has been a strength throughout his career, but he's actually allowing more fly balls this season than in the past, in addition to fewer ground balls and more line drives. A shift like that in batted ball profile would tend to imply an increase in home runs, but Penny's only allowing 3 percent of fly balls to leave the yard, compared to a career norm of about 9 percent. ...

Unless Penny continues to be historically stingy with the homeruns, expect his ERA the rest of the season to be at least 3.75. If he can stay healthy enough to pitch 200 innings, however, his 2006 season will still garner a lot of attention, especially if the Dodgers continue to rebound from 2005 and challenge for the division lead.

* * *

Jeff Weaver battles to stay in the Angels starting rotation ...

Angels at Rangers, 11:05 a.m.

Comments (243)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2006-05-24 08:28:44
1.   D4P
In comparison, Joe Beimel has given up 2 HRs in 14.1 innings.
2006-05-24 08:31:55
2.   Sam DC
Hey Nate (realize you probably don't wake up for like 6 hours, but I figure you'll read this eventually) -- I responded to your Soriano/Wilkerson question at the bottom of the last thread.
2006-05-24 08:54:23
3.   Eric Enders
According to Baseball Prospectus this morning, the Dodgers now have a 46 percent chance of making the playoffs -- 10 percent better than the next-most-likely NL west team (Arizona).

The Dodgers also have the best Pythagorean record in the NL (29-17) and second-best in baseball to Detroit.

2006-05-24 09:03:10
4.   bluetahoe
You've got to LOVE this team. All the wheels are churning. We are not only winning, we are winning with BLOWOUTS!!

Not only is our offense the best in the league our pitching is proving to be the best in the league. I'm thinking WORLD SERIES now.


2006-05-24 09:09:29
5.   Sushirabbit
It looks to me like Penny is not challenging people as much as he used to with his fast ball. In fact, the last two outings he seemed to "nibble" more, maybe he's just been better about keeping it down or really high.

I can't believe just a short time ago, I was so worried about the pitching, well, actually I can because I'm still worried, but Gagne's return looks to be a really good thing.

As to Izturis, I hate to see him go, but I'd rather have Furcal. If we could keep last nights line-up and Mueller and Izturis, ditch ALomar and keep Navarro, I'd say we're all set but for one decent reliever (and rumor has it there are no decent relievers).

2006-05-24 09:33:49
6.   Andrew Shimmin
This team is DOOMED. All the wheels are fixing to fall off. We're winning, big, which will make it all the more heartbreaking when it stops.

Even Penny, the only good starter we've got has been demonstrably lucky. I'm thinking top 10 draft pick again next year.


2006-05-24 09:44:23
7.   dagwich
Mostly OT: Since the Dodgers are soon leaving for a road trip, maybe you are looking for something slightly different to do this weekend. How about opera? I'm going to brag that my brother is the conductor for LA Opera's production of "Grendel". Here is the link:

Here's the part that's more on topic: He went to the 8-4 Dodger win over the Angels, got a ticket right behind home plate and said it was fantastic. Apparently the stadium is beautiful, the seats have cupholders and he even got a padded seat. Oh yeah, the game was really great as well, and he had lots of great conversations with fellow fans. Beats the last game I went to in 2003, sitting in the right field bleachers and witnessing about 4 fights. But he paid megabucks for his tickets while I paid $6 for mine....

2006-05-24 09:49:43
8.   Humma Kavula
7 I'm seeing Grendel next weekend (june 3). I'd love to hear your biased review -- what can I expect?
2006-05-24 09:50:16
9.   scareduck
6 - I suppose this qualifies as reverse psychology.

7 - you know, I've been meaning to go see that. That was one of my sister's favorite books in high school. Is the show getting good notices? I haven't noticed.

And -- happy birthday, Brad Penny.

2006-05-24 09:50:28
10.   Vishal
[6] brilliant.
2006-05-24 09:51:46
11.   Vishal
(rob, i think it qualifies as pure satire)
2006-05-24 09:52:24
12.   ddog
My apologies if this was discussed late last night, but any Dodger Thoughts reader who subscribes to the L.A. Times would have gotten an unpleasant surprise this morning upon turning to the business section. The headline is "Entrepreneurs Getting Keys to Southland Cities," and under that headline is a huge, close-up photo of none other than Kevin Malone. Turns out that in his new incarnation (after a disastrous term as Dodger GM, then a spell as a college fundraiser) he is now the front guy for a group of investors (including, improbably, Eddie Murray) who are opening a Mercedes dealership in Valencia. I hope he does not do to Valencia and his investors what he did to our beloved team. Personally, this makes me want to lease a BMW.

If for some reason you want to see Malone's mug, it's at

2006-05-24 09:53:15
13.   FirstMohican
7 - Since the pavillion rose to $8 from 6, I haven't noticed an increase in the quality of the fights.
2006-05-24 09:55:57
14.   heato
9 - Also, Happy Birthday to Jae Seo.
2006-05-24 09:58:21
15.   Gen3Blue
This discussion is wonderfully bi-polar.But Jimi said manic depression's a frustrating mess. I think this is a real nice run that isn't as meaningless as last years 10 for 12
(or whatever start). But there is a lot of good fortune involved. I'm tempted to say this could be a bit above .500 team, and time will tell.
2006-05-24 10:02:35
16.   bluetahoe
No need to be a Negative Nellie, Andrew.

Colletti has put together an exciting team that WINS, and most importantly is a JOY to watch.

This roller coaster is headed towards full speed. Better jump aboard before it's too late. It's going to be quite a ride.

2006-05-24 10:06:02
17.   Andrew Shimmin
Last year's start was only meaningless in retrospect.

16- I'm not serious about 6, but it's not like this team is invicible. There are a lot of problems with this team (as there are of nearly all teams), many of which could derail it--since it's May, nobody knows whether any of them will. It's not negative-nellyism to tether one's hopes to reality.

2006-05-24 10:06:33
18.   Steve
A category mistake, or category error is a semantic or ontological error by which a property is ascribed to a thing that could not possibly have that property.
2006-05-24 10:07:05
19.   dagwich
8,9 -- I talked to him last night and he is very nervous about this production. This is a world premiere, so there is a lot of pressure. Basically he said his part (the music & vocals) are great, but the sets are a disaster at this point. It sounds like there are going to be some all-nighters to get this ready for Saturday night.

All in all, he really likes this opera, but I don't know how to intpret that. Through him I have seen far more opera than I would have otherwise, espcially the post-WWI German existential variety. If you think the Dodgers are depressing sometimes, take in "Wozzeck".

2006-05-24 10:08:31
20.   Andrew Shimmin
invicible: (adj.) Above temptation; incorruptible.

Or, you know, JAT(ypo)FS(himmin).

2006-05-24 10:12:22
21.   Gen3Blue
Sounds like without category errors, language couldn't evolve.
2006-05-24 10:14:02
22.   Christina
19 I'm a season subscriber to the SF Opera. I don't think I can get down to LA for Grendel, sadly, but I hope it does well so that the SF Opera can do a production of it in the future.
2006-05-24 10:17:25
23.   bluetahoe
I don't see any problem swith this team.

Martin and Ethier are looking to battle it out for ROY.

Nomar's looking to be runner up in the MVP balloting behind Pujols.

Kent and Furcal are starting to fire on all cylinders. And when they get there....WATCH OUT NL.

Aybar is establishing himself as one of the most potent offensive bats for 3rd baseman in the league.

Seanz is arguablly the best bat off the bench in the league.

One could even make an arguement that Ramon Martinez is the best #25 man in the league.

Lofton/Repko are showing they are a top tier center field combo.

JD Drew is having an allstar season. He's an OBP machine with some pop.

We have 2 aces in Brad Penny and Derek Lowe.

Brett Tomko has established himself as arguably the best number 3 man in the league.

Jae Seo is improving everday. His numbers last season were not a fluke. Arguably the besr #4 man in the league.

Aaron Sele is on a role. If he keeps it up or if we go with Billz, once again we're looking at the best in the league. This time the #5 man.

Our bullpen is unhittable now. We've got roles established. Beaz is much better suited in the set up role, and he's been a FORCE in that role. Our big 5 in the bullpen is better than anyone's in baseball. BAR NONE. Gagne, Baez, Saito, Broxton, Beimel.

This is a 100-105 win team folks. This is the 1st year of a DYNASTY. It's GREAT to be a Dodger fan again.

2006-05-24 10:25:32
24.   Jon Weisman
I put up a link to the 11 a.m. Angel game, so we can watch Jeff Weaver's next start together.
2006-05-24 10:26:28
25.   Bob Timmermann
I'm going to the game tonight and I think some pitcher named Aaron with a four letter last name is going to end up on the losing end tonight.
2006-05-24 10:28:30
26.   Christina
24 I'm rooting for Weaver to put together a good start this time out. Why? So the Angels will keep him in the rotation, paving the way for him to proceed to blow a bunch more games. A win now will pay off in many more losses later.
2006-05-24 10:29:53
27.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
25 - Burr?
2006-05-24 10:31:49
28.   Jon Weisman
25 - I like the 5-4 vowel-consonant ratio.
2006-05-24 10:32:14
29.   Bob Timmermann
Burr is always tough in one-on-one situation.
2006-05-24 10:33:12
30.   Uncle Miltie
I don't know where we would be without Danys Baez and Lance Carter.

It's a shame that moneyballers Derek Lowe, Brad Penny, and J.D. Drew are performing. Ned deserves all the credit for bringing in proven veterans who have the intangibles. Depodesta was too much of a cyborg to understand how chemistry works. Once K Loft gets back to "Kenny speed", this team should really take off.

2006-05-24 10:35:44
31.   Eric Enders
Today's AFLAC trivia question: Who is the only person to:
(a) Once kill a person in a duel, and
(b) Currently have his portrait on U.S. currency.
2006-05-24 10:36:47
32.   Uncle Miltie
Andrew Jackson?
2006-05-24 10:37:57
33.   Bob Timmermann
My grandfather was killed in a duel with Franklin D. Roosevelt.

It was quite a sight.

The wheelchair thing was all fake.

2006-05-24 10:38:12
34.   Sushirabbit
23 Right, TOMMY!

30, all this talk about somebody's return had me wondering, Gagne, Ituris, Werth (!), and really it was all about Kenny, or is that KENNY!

2006-05-24 10:40:45
35.   Eric Enders
Uncle Miltie gets it. Next time the question will be tougher.
2006-05-24 10:42:10
36.   Sushirabbit
31 and not with a given name Jeff.

Old Hickory didn't need to duel, he just killed lots of people all at once.

2006-05-24 10:46:31
37.   Sushirabbit
Does anybody know if Tito Fuentes still holds the modern era record for fewest errors at 2B?
2006-05-24 10:47:20
38.   bluetahoe
I thought Penny, Lowe, and Drew were baseball players. LOL.

I don't think DePodesta was as bad a GM as many made him out to be. I actually liked most of his moves. I don't think Depo has the foresight of Colletti. Colletti has taken this team to a whole new level I don't think Depo would have been capable of taking us too. If Depo were still around we probably wouldn't have Nomar, Lofton, or Ethier on the team. With injuries to Repko and Bardley our outfield would be Drew, Cruz, and dare I say.......Jose Valentin in left, LOL.

2006-05-24 10:49:00
39.   Eric Enders
Penny might borrow a line from John Kruk: "I ain't an athlete; I'm a baseball player."
2006-05-24 10:52:36
40.   Bob Timmermann
I assume you mean: fewest errors in a season by a second baseman.

If so, the record for second basemen playing in 150 games or more at the position in a season is 3, by Jose Oquendo (1990), Jerry Adaird (1964), Bobby Grich (1973), and Roberto Alomar (1992 and 2001).

The Sporting News guide doesn't list Tito Fuentes in any category for second basemen.

2006-05-24 10:55:01
41.   Penarol1916
40. I always thought that Frank White also held that record, I guess he didn't hit the 150 game mark though.
2006-05-24 10:55:19
42.   Telemachos
Kenny Lofton running looks like a bad special effect.
2006-05-24 10:55:32
43.   Gen3Blue

This isn't subtle, right?

2006-05-24 10:55:57
44.   Sushirabbit
37 to answer my own question, apparently Tito was the NL leader after a 6 error season in '73 (I thought it was 3 errors), and then Jose Oquendo had a 3 error season in 1990. That's according to Baseball-Reference.
2006-05-24 10:57:47
45.   Sushirabbit
As usual Bob knows it faster than I can look it up.
2006-05-24 10:59:49
46.   Bob Timmermann
Surprisingly, in an 18-season career, Frank White only played 150 games or more at second base four times.

In 1988, he made four errors in 148 games. He was 37 that season. He had a relatively low range factor (by his standards that season), so he probably wasn't getting errors because he wasn't getting to as many balls.

2006-05-24 11:00:43
47.   Bob Timmermann
Well, I have a book.
2006-05-24 11:03:29
48.   ToyCannon
I still think Aaron Burr was the most exciting United States political figure that I'm aware of.

You guys can make fun of Bluetahoe for his youthfull enthusiasm but I enjoy it. I believe in the Pythagorean and it says we are a kick butt team. I don't see a weakness on this team other then CF/LF and for the time being I can live with a rotation of Cruz/Ethier/Lofton between the two spots. I've never seen a team get settled down by a rookie catcher like Martin has done. I thought he was so overhyped that I was prepared for the 2nd coming of Kendall. He has been a joy to watch. Some of this is Depo (Drew, Kent, Navarro, Cruz, Lowe, Penny) and some of this has been Ned (Nomar, Mueller, Lofton, Seo, Sele, Saito, Ethier) and of course we can thank Evans for Martin, Aybar, and Billingsly. A nice combination has turned this into a good and fun team to watch.

No one is 13-2 good but we will contend for the Division and more.

2006-05-24 11:05:42
49.   ToyCannon
Jose Valentin is posting an OPS > 1000 in May with the Mets. He has been an excellent super utility player much like Grady envisioned Izzy before Izzy said no. Unlike Izzy, Jose still has power.
2006-05-24 11:10:57
50.   bluegold
37. I thought Tito Fuentes had the fewest errors on timbales.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2006-05-24 11:12:51
51.   Bob Timmermann
Aaron Burr was a five tool politician.

1) He could win elections
2) He could steal elections
3) He could beat his enemies anyway he could
4) He could conspire with traitorous American generals
5) He could steal bases

2006-05-24 11:14:00
52.   Jon Weisman
Guerrero extends what I think is a remarkable hitting streak against Texas: 42 games, I think.
2006-05-24 11:15:21
53.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
According to BPro, LA has the best offense in the national League: EQA of .276.
2006-05-24 11:15:27
54.   bigcpa
BP Pitcher Win Expectation above Replacement:
(of 476 ML pitchers)
Carter 363rd
Baez 457th
Hamulack 470th

Looks like Carter could have challenged Francisco Cordero for 476th, but he's thrown half the number of innings.

2006-05-24 11:16:56
55.   Bob Timmermann
Tito Fuenetes is one of those players on the Giants teams of the late 1960s and early 1970s that always finished second (except for the 1971 NL West, which they almost choked away to the Dodgers.)

He was never a very good hitter. Only in 1969 did he have an OPS+ over 100 (103).

He was sort of a hotheaded Alex Cora.

Fuentes supposedly said (I doubt the statement's veracity), "They shouldn't throw at me. I have 5 or 6 kids to take care of."

2006-05-24 11:17:23
56.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 38

Actually, a lot of media reports had DePo high on Nomah. My guess we would have had Choi/Saenz at 1B, Nomah at 3B, and Kent at 2B. The interesting question is whether or not DePo would have signed Furcal. I think that may be a case of Ned being creative in a way DePo wouldn't have been.

As for the OF, who knows? I actually think DePo might have still traded Bradley, which meant we still would have had Ethier. That struck me as being ordered by McCourt, and if DePo had survived, I think he would have done that also. Or we could have had Guzman up instead, which may or may not have been a good thing. I don't think DePo would have signed Lofton.

I'm also sure DePo would not have traded Jackson and Tiffany for Baez and Carter.

I think the team would have been fine if DePo had survived, but I'm more or less satisfied with Ned. I really disliked the Baez/Carter deal, but the Furcal deal was creative, and Grady's shown some pleasant flexibility. And Ned's yet to display really reckless abandon with regards to trading prospects.

Anyhow, I think this team could be pretty good, but it really is just too early to tell. A lot will depend on whether or not Gagne is truly healthy.


2006-05-24 11:21:42
57.   Bob Timmermann
Does anyone think that if the worst pitcher in the Angels rotation was anyone but Jeff Weaver that Jered Weaver would be called up?
2006-05-24 11:24:09
58.   Jon Weisman
57 - I definitely think that's at least a holdup.
2006-05-24 11:24:13
59.   Humma Kavula
When was the last time a ballplayer was replaced in favor of his brother?
2006-05-24 11:24:56
60.   Humma Kavula
Texas's chance of winning this game is now 70%.
2006-05-24 11:25:33
61.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 57

The thing with Weaver, though, is that he has had a tendency of having awful stretches, followed by strong ones. That's part of the reason why he's so frustrating--sorta the surfer-dude equivalent of Kaz Ishii. I think a case could be made why the Angels should have stuck with him this long.

I do certainly agree, though, that they also realize how touchy it would be replace Jeff with his younger brother.


2006-05-24 11:26:34
62.   Fallout
Why is Penny limited to 100 pitches? He should be able to throw 120 pitches. As it is now it's five and bye.
2006-05-24 11:28:26
63.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 62

He's a maximum effort pitcher, so that may also have something to do with it.

At this point in the season, I don't mind him only pitching 5 IP. We had a big lead yesterday, so there was no reason in my view to not conserve his strength for the stretch run. Penny has a good postseason record, and we don't want him gassed, if we do make the playoffs.


2006-05-24 11:29:55
64.   bhsportsguy
57-59 That and 8MM (although that did not protect Alfonzo)
2006-05-24 11:30:05
65.   Andrew Shimmin
Even if you think the team is, as is, structurally flawless (I find this next to impossible to even stipulate), their injury-risk is still a major (if only potential) weakness, isn't it?
2006-05-24 11:30:18
66.   Jacob L
59 I don't know, but I seem to remember the Roenickes having some similar jobs. The thing about brothers is that usually one is so much better than the other. If I had Mike Maddux in the back end of my rotation, and had the chance to add Greg, I don't think I'd worry too much about Mike's feelings.

Can anyone think of brothers that were really good, and eqally so, without going as far back as the Alous or the DiMaggios?

2006-05-24 11:32:41
67.   Bob Timmermann
Jesus Alou sort of took Felipe Alou's position as fourth outfielder for the Giants in 1964.

Both Matty and Felipe were extra outfielders in 1963 and Jesus was called up at the end of the year. But with Mays and either Cepeda or McCover taking up the other outfield spot, the third spot in the Giants outfield was not set.

2006-05-24 11:34:12
68.   Bob Timmermann
For a time, Ramon and Pedro Martinez were roughly equal. Maybe one year. But they were both pretty good at their prime.
2006-05-24 11:34:32
69.   oswald
hey, tahoe,


but it's not perfect, and perfection is always the goal, no? the bullpen still makes me as nervous, and i would like another starting pitcher. depending on how gagne does when he comes back, they may only need another starter down the stretch. (chad? ooo ... chad!). but if no chad ...

let's chat! izzy and dioner, for who?

2006-05-24 11:37:32
70.   Bob Timmermann
Steve Physioc was complimenting the Angels for having more plate discipline.

That was weird.

2006-05-24 11:40:16
71.   Jacob L
More plate discipline that what?
2006-05-24 11:42:17
72.   Bob Timmermann
Physioc was impressed that Mike Napoli drew two walks last night.

And Hudler is trying to encourage fans by noting that the Angels OBP is going up, but not the batting average.

2006-05-24 11:44:42
73.   Jon Weisman
This is beyond ridiculous, even for Weaver.
2006-05-24 11:45:24
74.   Linkmeister
66 How could you forget the Molinas? There are the Izturis boys as well, and those two combos are just current players.

Ok, I'm probably missing the point. ;)

2006-05-24 11:46:20
75.   D4P
More plate discipline than what?

Jonathan Broxton...?

2006-05-24 11:52:23
76.   Vishal
billy goat jeff continues his torrid bad pitching in texas.
2006-05-24 11:52:41
77.   Fallout
63 Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh

True. We want him ready for the post season but he is stressing the bullpen and they may be over worked by season's end if this continues. I would venture to say that most "maximum effort pitcher"(s) throw about 120 pitches a game. Besides, this guy is built like Shrek.

2006-05-24 11:52:46
78.   bhsportsguy
I thought Vinny made a good point last week when he observed all the breaking stuff that Weaver was throwing.

The Angels are kind of stuck, I saw a note where Colon is still a few weeks away, Scioscia wants to move Gregg back to the bullpen, so what can you do with Weaver, I don't see DFA and a trade is pretty unlikely right now.

Colon is signed for a few more years, Lackey and Santana are under their control for a couple, Escobar and Jeff Weaver a free agents at the end of the year. They have Jered Weaver in the wings but I can't see haivng Carrasco, Jeff Weaver and Gregg in the bullpen.

That said, Jeff needs to pull it together or he won't get any love after the season.

2006-05-24 11:53:26
79.   Vishal
[68] i can only look at pedro and think of what might have been if ramon hadn't had those arm injuries.
2006-05-24 12:02:51
80.   blue22
66 - If I had Mike Maddux in the back end of my rotation, and had the chance to add Greg, I don't think I'd worry too much about Mike's feelings.

You must not be watching this afternoon's Cubs game. ;-)

2006-05-24 12:06:42
81.   Fallout
Perez and $Millions for Weaver.
2006-05-24 12:08:19
82.   sanchez101
79. I think that if the Dodgers had kept Pedro, he wouldve blown out his arm like the rest of Lasorda's young pitchers. Between Fernando and Chan-Ho, a lot of young pitchers fell apart in what shouldve been their prime seasons. I dont think its a coincidence that the two guys that got traded, Dave Stewart and Pedro, became Cy Young contenders. Of course some of those pitchers wouldve fallen apart anyway, but Lasorda deserves a lot more blame than most Dodger fans are willing to admit.
2006-05-24 12:20:41
83.   Bob Timmermann
I thought that Park's problem was not as much arm problems as that he just left the friendly confines of Dodger Stadium for Arlington and then he was plagued with leg injuries and finding out that the fly balls he gave up in Dodger Stadium ended up in the seats.

Park has become a remarkably better pitcher once he got to PETCO. Which I don't think is coincidental.

2006-05-24 12:23:14
84.   bluetahoe
69. Here's a start to a 3 way that would depend upon the health of Jon Patterson

Dodgers get Carlos Zambrano

Cubs get Jae Seo and Jon Patterson

Nationals get Cesar Izturis and Dionner Navarro

2006-05-24 12:26:30
85.   Disabled List
82 79 is running a poll right now on the biggest blunders in each team's history. For the Dodgers, the Pedro-Delino trade is running away with the voting, but my vote went to Lasorda's ruination of Valenzuela, Hershiser, and Ramon Martinez. The first two might have had HoF careers cut short by the early workload Tommy put on them.

The other blunders recieving votes are the Darren Dreifort signing, the Darryl Strawberry signing, and the Wetteland/Belcher for E. Davis/Kip Gross trade.

(Dunno why that last one is on there, the Konerko for Jeff Shaw deal was arguably the Dodgers 3rd worst trade of the '90s... and speaking of, whither the Piazza trade?)

2006-05-24 12:27:31
86.   ToyCannon
Good thing Gagne isn't our GM or we'd have Weaver giving us all those dynamite innings. Another reason why players should stick to playing and let the bloggers handle the team details.
2006-05-24 12:30:21
87.   Bob Timmermann
Bonds sitting it out this afternoon in San Francisco, missing the chance to face Brad Thompson.
2006-05-24 12:31:35
88.   blutomania
Looked at Jax's win last night. Casey Hoorelbeke is damn near untouchable in AA. Any thoughts as to when he'll be moved?
2006-05-24 12:32:18
89.   sanchez101
83. I dont think Park's problems were injury related, I was just using him to frame the "failed-pitcher era". Maybe I shouldve used Dreifort.
2006-05-24 12:39:37
90.   sanchez101
85. I cant believe the whole Clemente fiasco wasnt on that list, maybe it only refers to the LA Dodgers. The Piazza trade isnt the disaster that people think, first of all he was a 29 year old catcher and while the first 4 years of his contract with the Mets he earned his paycheck, his last 3 years he wasnt worth his salary. More importantly, Sheffield wasnt exactly Delino DeShields and pretty much matched Piazza at the plate while with the Dodgers. Im not saying Piazza shouldve been traded, or that it was a great trade, but it wasnt a huge blunder.
2006-05-24 12:42:15
91.   Sam DC
84 With Schneider signed long term, Nationals are not so much looking for frontline catching.
2006-05-24 12:44:01
92.   GoBears
83. I think this is just right about Park. He has a huge home-road split while a Dodger, and Arlington was just about the worst place he could have gone.
2006-05-24 12:50:22
93.   Bob Timmermann
The Marlins win today has temporarily moved them out of the cellar of the NL. They are a half game ahead of the Pirates.

Zach Duke flings for the Bucs this afternoon in Phoenix against Miguel Batista.

2006-05-24 12:50:48
94.   Disabled List
90 I hate to sound like Plaschke here, but Piazza was worth more to the Dodgers. He was the most popular athlete in LA since Magic, a home-grown future Hall of Famer, and while the last few years of his contract might've failed to provide value, it would've been worth it to avoid the Dodgers' spiral from first-class organization to MLB rank-and-file, which is what ended up happening. (Not necessarily because of that trade, but it was emblematic of the dark era of the Fox reign.)

Who will be the next Dodger inducted into the Hall of Fame? Anyone?

(And don't say Chad Billingsley.)

2006-05-24 12:51:07
95.   Jon Weisman
Weaver has survived five.
2006-05-24 12:52:39
96.   blue22
91 - They signed Schneider long term? Just looked him up, I guess he's not quite as bad as he's been this year, but he's nothing to right home about. Pretty good defensive numbers, but not much of a hitter.

$5M per year through 2009 though?

2006-05-24 12:53:22
97.   D4P
More importantly, don't say Jeff Kent.
2006-05-24 12:54:09
98.   Marty
94 Jeff Kent
2006-05-24 12:54:27
99.   blue22
94 - He did reject a $90M offer, I believe even going so far as being insulted by it.

Getting Sheffield for him is enough to avoid the all-time blunder list.

2006-05-24 12:54:43
100.   Marty
I swear I didn't see D4P's post before I hit submit :)
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2006-05-24 12:55:57
101.   blue22
100 - Instigator. :-)
2006-05-24 12:56:28
102.   Bob Timmermann
How do you find "Dodger" in the Hall of Fame?

If it's someone who just played for the Dodgers, I would agree with Marty that Jeff Kent will be one. So will Pedro Martinez and Mike Piazza. Gary Sheffield should, but I think he may have to wait a bit since he isn't exactly media-friendly and he'll suffer from guilt by association with Bonds.

2006-05-24 12:57:20
103.   thinkblue0

you've got to be kidding with this one.

#1 the Cubs aren't giving up Zambrano. Just not going to happen
#2 Why would the Nats give a great pitcher in Patterson for a utility player in Izturis and an okay catching prospect?

To get something good you have to give up something way we'd be able to land a front line starting pitcher by dealing our spare parts (Izzy, Navarro) and an okay starter (seo).

2006-05-24 12:57:43
104.   blue22
How about going in wearing a Dodger hat.

I'd say there's a strong chance Piazza goes in wearing Dodger blue.

2006-05-24 12:58:32
105.   regfairfield
90 If the trade was straight up Piazza for Sheffield, then it would have been fairly even, but the other part of the trade: Zeile for Charles Johnson, Bobby Bonilla and Jim Eisenrich killed the Dodgers. It forced the team to bring up Beltre way too soon and it added a ton of payroll.
2006-05-24 12:59:19
106.   D4P
Which hat will Kent wear?

1. Mets
2. Giants
3. Dodgers
4. Motocross helmet

2006-05-24 13:00:02
107.   thinkblue0

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't chuckling over the whole "Pirates the worst with Tracy involved" thing.

Hate to say I told you so....

2006-05-24 13:00:07
108.   Marty
As far as someone who played most of his career with the Dodgers, it may not even be Piazza. Has he now played away from L.A. longer than his time as a Dodger? The next one who MAY get in and was primarily a Dodger could be Gagne I suppose. If he comes back solid for 8 more years.
2006-05-24 13:00:34
109.   sanchez101
94. I agree, my point was that the Piazza trade was not a huge blunder, rather that it was defensable trade that you could argue for and against. I would agrue against it for the reasons you mentioned, but it doesnt belong on the list of worst Dodger blunders.
2006-05-24 13:01:51
110.   Jon Weisman
105 - I've got nothing personal against Todd Zeile, but trading Todd Zeile never killed anybody.
2006-05-24 13:02:18
111.   blue22
108 - He has played more games in a Mets uniform now, but his best seasons were in LA. Plus, there's the "Tommy Factor" in LA.
2006-05-24 13:02:46
112.   Bob Timmermann
Didn't every team in the majors trade Todd Zeile at some time in its history?
2006-05-24 13:03:44
113.   Disabled List
Jeff Kent will not be going into the HoF wearing a Dodger cap, fellas. (Although in the free-agent era, who knows what team they'll assign him to. I think the Mets, but maybe the Giants.)

Piazza will definitely go in with a Mets cap. He played the bulk of his career and won his only pennant there.

2006-05-24 13:04:32
114.   thinkblue0

didn't you say wins were the most important pitching staff? So, shouldn't we be going after say, Kenny Rogers instead of Carlos Zambrano?

2006-05-24 13:04:55
115.   regfairfield
110 Okay, maybe killed was too harsh of a word, but trading an .800+ OPS third baseman for salary cruft can't be a good thing. Plus, there's a chance we'd still have Beltre, or at least would have had him last year. Whether or not this is a good thing is an exercise left to the reader.
2006-05-24 13:05:55
116.   Bob Timmermann
Todd Zeile's transaction history from Retrosheet:

Transaction Information

Selected by Kansas City Royals in the 30th round of the free-agent draft - did not
sign (June 6, 1983).

Selected by St. Louis Cardinals in the 2nd round of the free-agent draft (June 2,

Traded by St. Louis Cardinals with cash to Chicago Cubs in exchange for Mike Morgan,
Paul Torres and Francisco Morales (June 16, 1995).

Granted free agency (December 20, 1995).

Signed by Philadelphia Phillies (December 22, 1995).

Traded by Philadelphia Phillies with Pete Incaviglia to Baltimore Orioles in
exchange for 2 players to be named later (August 29, 1996); Philadelphia Phillies
received Calvin Maduro and Garrett Stephenson (September 4, 1996).

Granted free agency (October 27, 1996).

Signed by Los Angeles Dodgers (December 8, 1996).

Traded by Los Angeles Dodgers with Mike Piazza to Florida Marlins in exchange for
Manuel Barrios, Bobby Bonilla, Jim Eisenreich, Charles Johnson and Gary Sheffield
(May 14, 1998).

Traded by Florida Marlins to Texas Rangers in exchange for Daniel DeYoung and Jose
Santo (July 31, 1998).

Granted free agency (October 28, 1999).

Signed by New York Mets (December 11, 1999).

Traded by New York Mets with Benny Agbayani and cash to Colorado Rockies as part of
3-team trade in which Milwaukee Brewers sent Jeff D'Amico, Jeromy Burnitz, Lou
Collier, Mark Sweeney and cash to New York Mets; Colorado Rockies sent Alex Ochoa to
Milwaukee Brewers; Colorado Rockies sent Craig House and Ross Gload to New York
Mets; and New York Mets sent Lenny Harris and Glendon Rusch to Milwaukee
Brewers(January 21, 2002).

Granted free agency (October 28, 2002).

Signed by New York Yankees (December 19, 2002).

Released by New York Yankees (August 18, 2003).

Signed by Montreal Expos (August 20, 2003).

Granted free agency (October 26, 2003).

Signed by New York Mets (February 8, 2004).

Granted free agency (November 1, 2004).

2006-05-24 13:06:48
117.   blue22
Games played are 972 to 726, but his 4 best seasons came in LA (97, 93, 96, and 95).

And do you really think Tommy lets him go to the Hall in a Mets cap?

2006-05-24 13:06:50
118.   sanchez101
106. ill go with 4
It either between the Mets or Dodgers when it comes to Piazza. According to WARP3, his 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best seasons came with the Dodgers he accumulated a WARP3 of 50.2 and a WARP3 of 43.7 with NY. Now if we could only convince the Hall of Fame to notice WARP3. Hopefully Lasorda has enough clout with the Hall of Fame.
I wouldnt mind Piazza as a back up to Martin next year, his skills are complementary and it makes sense from a PR standpoint.
2006-05-24 13:07:21
119.   thinkblue0

and none of that has stopped him from tearing by my house on a daily basis in his porsche....

2006-05-24 13:08:32
120.   blue22
118 - Good content, but 2 seconds too slow Sanchez!!!
2006-05-24 13:08:37
121.   sanchez101
113. Kent is not going as a Met, its as a Giant. He spent more years, and his best years in SF.
2006-05-24 13:09:20
122.   blue22
118 - And aren't those VORPs, not WARP3s?
2006-05-24 13:10:35
123.   ToyCannon
Season ending injuries to Drew, Kent, Martin, Nomar or any two starting pitchers would be killers but as long as they are little 15 DL injuries I think this team is deep enough to handle them. Until last year Drew has never had a season ending injury and I expect last year will be his only one so he should hold up this year. Kent probably has fewer days on the DL then any 2nd baseman who has played as many games as he has since 1995. Martin looks like a horse and his minor league pedigree looks clean injury wise. Nomar is the one I worry about getting taken out for the season but he's due for some good fortune.

I'm not as worried about injuries this year as last year.
1st - Nomar
a. Bring up Loney who's hitting 380 and should be able to perform a little better his 2nd time around.
b. Saenz
c. Move Kent to 1st and Aybar to 2nd
d. Move Kent to 1st and Izzy to 2nd
2nd - Kent
a. Move Aybar to 2nd
b. Move Izzy to 2nd
SS - Furcal
a. move Izzy to SS
3b - Mueller
a. Move Aybar to 3b though I'm not sure how that will work out given how Aybar can't seem to hit major league pitching:)
b. Move Guzman to 3b
c. Promote LaRoche
C - Martin
a. Navarro
after that were screwed

OF - Possible replacements are Guzman, D Young, and Kemp.

SP - Billingsly, Odalis Perez

Even without Gagne the bullpen has recovered and has been very effective.

2006-05-24 13:10:37
124.   regfairfield
122 No, they're WARPs. Piazza contributed more than 50 runs in his time in LA.
2006-05-24 13:11:19
125.   blue22
Sorry, those are accumulated WARP3s. My bad.
2006-05-24 13:12:38
126.   regfairfield
116 And each one of those teams was killed when they traded Zeile. Only the Cardinals and the Yankees made the playoffs after trading him.
2006-05-24 13:12:41
127.   Bob Timmermann
For the first time in my life, I got a wrong number phone call at my home where somebody read the first name wrong. They were looking for a Timmermann, but not me. It was a different "B. Timmermann".

Sounds like a "Rockford Files" plot.

2006-05-24 13:12:45
128.   Linkmeister
116 Hey, that list doesn't include his marriage to Julie McCarthy or whatever the gymnast's maiden name was. I call foul!
2006-05-24 13:15:30
129.   ToyCannon
The Cole Hamels reign was brief.
2006-05-24 13:15:44
130.   Bob Timmermann
Julianne McNamara.
2006-05-24 13:18:10
131.   ToyCannon
Zeile is an independant movie producer/actor these days.
2006-05-24 13:19:07
132.   Disabled List
121 You are absolutely right. My faulty memory had Kent with the Mets for more seasons than he actually was. Kent will definitely go into the Hall as a Giant.

And some of you other folks are kidding yourselves if you think Piazza will wear a Dodger cap on his HoF plaque. His best seasons were in LA, sure, but he left acrimoniously, he played more seasons with NY, and made his only World Series appearance as a Met. For most folks (i.e., non-Dodger fans), Piazza's time in LA is a distant memory.

Lasorda has nothing to do with the selection process. The Hall weighs all the evidence, consults the player, then makes the decision on what team appears on the cap. Piazza would have to have a very warm and fuzzy finish to his career as a Dodger for it to be even considered.

2006-05-24 13:19:14
133.   Linkmeister
130 Thank you. At least I had the initials right. (And don't nobody suggest I was thinking of that bimbo Jenny McCarthy, either.)
2006-05-24 13:19:35
134.   sanchez101
123. Guzman's also an option at 1st
126. You could say the same thing about Neifi Perez. Those teams didnt miss the playoffs because they traded Zeile. The cubs, philly, baltimore, LA, Texas, FLa and Col struggled for many more, much important reasons. Also the Marlins won a championship after traded him, Chicago made the playoffs since trading him, and I think Baltimore may have as well.
2006-05-24 13:20:12
135.   Uncle Miltie
99- and he didn't get much more from the Mets. He's a greedy a SOB and that's why he should be booed.

96- Schneider is worth the money. He's a slightly above average hitter for a catcher, but is a great defender. Probably the best in baseball.

Jason Marquis can really hit. Too bad he's only a mediocre pitcher.

I'm done with finals yay!

2006-05-24 13:21:36
136.   regfairfield
134 Tounge firmly in cheek there.
2006-05-24 13:23:26
137.   Bob Timmermann
I see that the Cardinals are going with a constant stream of relievers today since Carpenter is being held out.
2006-05-24 13:24:10
138.   sanchez101
132. The Piazza hall of fame debate between the LA and NY is as close as it gets. By the time Piazza is eligible, his whole career will be a distant memory for many. Lasorda should have nothing to do with the selection process, but if you think he wont try to influence it you dont know much about Tommy Lasorda. Id bring him back to LA for a season or two, in part to make sure he goes in as a Dodger. Colletti seems like the type of guy to do the same thing.
2006-05-24 13:24:53
139.   trainwreck
Did not take long for the Philadelphia curse to hit Hamels. Charlie Manuel is a bad manager btw.
2006-05-24 13:26:17
140.   ToyCannon
Marquis might be a better option at DH if he was in the AL then many of the current AL DH's.

KC should target him, he would quickly become their best pitcher and hitter.

2006-05-24 13:26:21
141.   sanchez101
135. do you boo JD Drew or Nomar, or Lowe or Furcal, or Willy Aybar or Joel Guzman. Arent they all greedy SOB's, at least by your definition?
2006-05-24 13:26:27
142.   Uncle Miltie
The Cardinals don't know how to run the bases. Pujols "singles" off the wall in right field.
2006-05-24 13:28:13
143.   ToyCannon
Weaver finishes his day with a decent effort at Arlington.
2006-05-24 13:30:12
144.   blue22
138 - I agree. I think there are arguments on both sides, but Piazza was a much better player for LA. He had 4 good seasons in NY, but none came close to any season he had in LA.
2006-05-24 13:30:54
145.   Jacob L
If the Dodgers were going to bring back Piazza for old times' sake, wouldn't this have been the year? Or do we really like what Alomar brings to the table?
2006-05-24 13:32:43
146.   ToyCannon
I've never understood the booing of Piazza. He still gets cheers from me. That might be hypocritical given my thoughts on Hochevar but Piazza earned the right to ask for money, Hochevar hasn't done diddly.
2006-05-24 13:33:47
147.   Disabled List
138 Lasorda will be well past the age of 85 by the time this debate will be held in earnest. He will be irrelevant to the decision, no matter how hard he tries to influence the outcome.

The only way it gets considered is if Piazza returns to the Dodgers for a career send-off, and goes out with a World Series win, or something similarly monumental.

2006-05-24 13:35:17
148.   Bob Timmermann
Piazza didn't come back to L.A. because he still wants to play a lot. With the Dodgers have two pretty good young catchers, Piazza would have to have been desperate to accept an offer from the Dodgers.
2006-05-24 13:35:44
149.   trainwreck
I think more people remember Piazza as a Dodger, but I live in CA so obviously there is a huge bias. I would rather he go in as a Dodger, but I understand him going in as a Met.
2006-05-24 13:37:11
150.   Uncle Miltie
141- Piazza said he wanted to be a Dodger for life. He was offended by the Dodgers offer because it wasn't for $100 million. Yea, I would call that greed. Drew is probably in the same boat, but then there's the Boras factor (I'm talking about not signing with the Phillies). Signing with the Dodgers was a no brainer because they were offering the most years and most money by far. Lowe's choices were 4 years $36 million with the Dodgers, the same offer with Tigers, or 3 years $24 million from the Red Sox, but that offer was in Spring Training and was not extended to him in the offseason. Also remember that Piazza was not a free agent. He basically said that he refused to negotiate with the team as a free agent, so they were forced to trade him.

Not sure why you're even bringing up Aybar or Guzman, 2 extremely poor kids from the Dominican who really need the money because their families are living in poverty.

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2006-05-24 13:40:35
151.   sanchez101
147. oh ya, Lasorda is and should be irrelevant, but its not because of his age. But the Piazza situation isnt nearly as cut and dry and your claiming it to be.
2006-05-24 13:41:17
152.   blue22
147 - The only way it gets considered is if Piazza returns to the Dodgers for a career send-off

Quite certain of this are you, even in the face of the evidence presented here in LA's favor? Minor things, like how much better of a player he was in LA, or the bulk of Piazza's career in NY was on the decline. None of this counts?

Only if he comes back to LA and wins a WS as a bench player?

2006-05-24 13:44:36
153.   sanchez101
150. Guzman didnt live in poverty. Both guys signed for record amounts with the Dodgers. Im not sure how you can write of Drew because of Boras, as if he's the only agent that tries to get as much money as possible. My point is that you cant blame guys for going for the money, its a business, and booing one of the best Dodgers in history is a pretty petty and classless thing to do.
2006-05-24 13:50:36
154.   Uncle Miltie
153- I'm not going to stand up for Drew for what he did to Philadelphia, but taking a home town discount with the Braves would have meant taking half as much money and only signing a 3 year contract. Atlanta made very little effort to bring him back. The Braves also didn't seem very interested in bringing Furcal back. The Dodgers would have made Piazza the highest paid player in baseball history. Piazza's huge ego got in the way because he made up his mind that he was going to be paid $100 million.
2006-05-24 13:51:35
155.   overkill94
153 Don't you think there's the matter of loyalty as well? Piazza probably wouldn't have had a career at all if it weren't for the Dodgers, and then he's whining about only being offered $95 million? It seems to me he should have been the prime example of a guy giving a hometown discount.
2006-05-24 13:51:40
156.   Uncle Miltie
153- I'm not going to stand up for Drew for what he did to Philadelphia, but taking a home town discount with the Braves would have meant taking half as much money and only signing a 3 year contract. Atlanta made very little effort to bring him back. The Braves also didn't seem very interested in bringing Furcal back. The Dodgers would have made Piazza the highest paid player in baseball history. Piazza's huge ego got in the way because he made up his mind that he was going to be paid $100 million.
2006-05-24 13:51:58
157.   Marty
There's a good chance Lasorda will not be around to try to influence the hall committee by the time Piazza is eligible.
2006-05-24 13:52:17
158.   Uncle Miltie
It needed to be said twice
2006-05-24 13:53:44
159.   Disabled List
152 Yes actually, I am quite certain of this. I live in New York. Everybody here associates Piazza with the New York Mets. Piazza played most of his career in New York. His only World Series was an all-New York affair. Much of the national media that influences decisions like this are based in New York. The Hall of Fame is located in New York state. New Yorkers consider New York the center of the universe.

Piazza's plaque will almost assuredly feature a New York Mets cap on his head.

2006-05-24 13:55:29
160.   blue22
157 - He really just needs to convince Mike. It's true that the Hall picks the hat, but I think the player's wishes are accomodated more often than not.

The new policy was implemented to prevent Piazza from going in as a Padre in exchange for a cush front office job post-retirement, not for Mets/Dodgers kinds of choices.

2006-05-24 13:59:07
161.   blue22
159 - What hat is Wade Boggs wearing in the HOF? How about Gary Carter? Just asking.
2006-05-24 14:02:09
162.   overkill94
Carter wanted to wear a Mets cap but was forced to wear an Expos cap because they didn't have any other HOF players.
2006-05-24 14:03:00
163.   Jacob L
If Tony LaRussa had coached my teams in Little League, I might have gotten to pitch once or twice. On the one hand, I guess you have to give him credit for trying something different. On the other, I think LaRussa likes to try things without weighing whether they're likely to work.

I'd venture that the only people who think of Piazza as a Dodger are Dodger fans. I don't even really think of him as a Dodger anymore.

2006-05-24 14:03:13
164.   Bob Timmermann
I thought Carter was depicted in an Expos cap because they were out of Mets caps at the Hall of Fame gift store.
2006-05-24 14:07:04
165.   Steve
If Scioscia is trying to prove that K-Rod is not hurt, he's doing a bad job.
2006-05-24 14:08:45
166.   Vishal
[159] New Yorkers consider New York the center of the universe

and it is far and away the single most annoying thing about new york. somewhat paradoxically, i think the city of new york would be a much cooler place if it wasn't for that attitude.

2006-05-24 14:08:50
167.   Bob Timmermann
Will Eric Karros be wearing a Dodgers cap on his Hall of Fame plaque? Or will it be an Oakland or Cubs cap?
2006-05-24 14:10:57
168.   blue22
But the bulk of the reason he's going to the Hall of Fame is because of his seasons in LA. Add to that the family connection to the Dodgers, the 62 round draft pick, rookie of the year, etc.

LA was where Mike Piazza was MIKE PIAZZA.

Not that he won't go in as a Met, but there is a compelling case for LA.

2006-05-24 14:11:45
169.   Vishal
[167] the only way karros makes it into the hall of fame is as an announcer, and from what i've heard, that's about as likely as him going into the hall as a player.
2006-05-24 14:12:09
170.   Bob Timmermann

Even stranger is that San Francisco considers itself the center of the universe. And the most important city in the state. Even though it's far smaller than L.A., San Diego or San Jose.

2006-05-24 14:13:38
171.   Jon Weisman
Has everyone followed Bob's link on The Griddle to the "Cole Hamels Facts" site? I can't stop laughing at it.
2006-05-24 14:15:14
172.   Bob Timmermann
The Cardinals have a pinch hit triple from pitcher Jason Marquis and a home run by relief pitchers Adam Wainwright.
2006-05-24 14:15:32
173.   Vishal
i honestly don't think san franciscans sit around pondering their city's place. they may resent LA for completely outpacing SF in the 20th century, but i think that's the extent of it. people in SF are a pretty easygoing lot.
2006-05-24 14:16:18
174.   Bob Timmermann
They weren't in 1987-88.

I'm still nursing a grudge.

2006-05-24 14:17:15
175.   das411
164 - Who are the Expos?

...and what is wrong with the Mighty Ducks???

160 - FWIW, the most noise I have ever heard at a ballgame was at the first Braves/Mets game @ Shea back in 2000 when John Rocker made his return. The "MVP! MVP!"s for Piazza were truly incredible to hear, and I still to this day cannot figure out how he finished #2 in the voting between a pair of teammates that year.

2006-05-24 14:18:47
176.   Bob Timmermann
Noah Lowry made a throwing error for the ages. He had Encarnacion picked off second and was standing about 15 feet from Ray Durham at second to make the tag. Lowry must have thrown the ball 8 feet over Durham's head in to center.

It's all tied in San Francisco now.

2006-05-24 14:19:09
177.   ToyCannon
Don't care which hat he goes in wearing, all I know is that since the day he showed up, he hit the ball harder then any right hand hitter I'd ever seen until Pujols showed up. He was a pleasure to watch and I'm very gratefull that he spent his best years with my team.
2006-05-24 14:20:05
178.   Bob Timmermann
I still don't know how Piazza lost the MVP award to Walker in 1997.
2006-05-24 14:20:54
179.   Disabled List
167 I don't even think they'd let Karros buy a ticket to visit the Hall of Fame.
2006-05-24 14:21:28
180.   Bob Timmermann
Please folks, the Karros HOF remark was a joke.
2006-05-24 14:23:12
181.   Disabled List
Piazza got robbed by a juiced-up Caminiti in 1996 too.
2006-05-24 14:23:58
182.   blue22
180 - Obviously it was a joke. How could he not go in as a Dodger? He, like, barely played with those other teams.

Sheesh. ;-)

2006-05-24 14:24:00
183.   Ken Arneson
170 When I arrived at UC Berkeley, Joe Kapp was telling anyone who would listen that Berkeley was the center of the universe.
2006-05-24 14:24:11
184.   Steve
The list of players to boo is pretty short. Bonds, of course. Jeff Weaver. Piazza is nowhere near it. In fact, quite the opposite.
2006-05-24 14:25:28
185.   Jon Weisman
177 - Well said.
2006-05-24 14:26:50
186.   Sam DC
Not that I've been poking around in your garage, Jon, but thought you should know that the Pirate Cat link on your sidebar now takes one to Just saying . . .
2006-05-24 14:27:09
187.   Ken Arneson
174 1987-88 was the peak of Herb Caen's propaganda campaign. He brainwashed the whole city.
2006-05-24 14:27:55
188.   blue22
184 - Is Offerman still on an active roster?

BTW, does Willy Aybar remind anyone of what Jose Offerman was supposed to have been? Maybe it's just me.

2006-05-24 14:30:39
189.   Ladderkite
Past transgressions notwithstanding, do we even want Piazza as a backup to Russ? IF we keep Navarro through the season, wouldn't the nice young, cheap pair of catchers be the better alternative for the baseball team. Not the PR team.

*Piazza was a great Dodger, but will probably be a Met in the hall.

2006-05-24 14:32:55
190.   Steve
I would boo Delino DeShields at an Old-Timers Game. Jimmy Rollins falls under the "Over-Paid Banjo Hitter" rule. Chipper Jones under the "His Real Name Is Larry" rule. Danys Baez under the "One-Eyed Man Leading The Tampa Bay Blind" rule.
2006-05-24 14:33:00
191.   Sushirabbit
177. Yeah.

I bet if it looked like the Dodgers at a legitimate chance at a WS, he might come back. I doubt it though. Speaking of that, if Clemens really wants a World Series ring, why would LA not be interesting, or for that matter the Mets. Talk about creating a media storm. That'd be fun either way, I'd almost prefer it over the Yankees or Boston or Texas.

2006-05-24 14:37:19
192.   Bob Timmermann
Under what scenario would San Diego part with Piazza? Would it involve an attempted murder charge involving John Moores or Kevin Towers?

The Dodgers and Padres don't make deals with each other. (Well, they've made two, but with scrubs).

2006-05-24 14:38:15
193.   ToyCannon
Do we have 20 million to throw at Clemens for 2/3 season of work? I don't think so. Let the carpetbagger find out he can age just like Randy Johnson on someone else's money.
2006-05-24 14:39:51
194.   Bob Timmermann
I just thought all Joe Kapp said was, "The Bear will not die!"
2006-05-24 14:46:56
195.   Jon Weisman
Is Joe Kapp the one who led the Vikings to a depressing victory in a rainy, muddy Coliseum over the Rams?
2006-05-24 14:48:36
196.   Jacob L
Keeping an eye on the SF game and wondering who's got the best bullpen in the West? Colorado?
2006-05-24 14:48:53
197.   Sam DC
Cards score 9 runs with an RBI or run scored by The Pujols.
2006-05-24 14:50:15
198.   underdog
Anytime anyone here feels like complaining about [insert member of Dodger bullpen here], I just have two words for you:

Scott. Munter.


Btw, as a SF resident (and SoCal native) I don't consider this the center of the universe or the state, nor do most people I know - but there are certainly plenty here with that provincial attitude. It's hard when you live in a place that's beautiful and unique to not have some sort of attitude about it but I certainly keep it in check, having lived elsewhere and seeing what's good and bad about each place.

Speaking of the Giants and SF's provincial attitude, my favorite recent example of that was when I was at PhoneCo. Park with my dad for the Dodgers game and he'd forgotten to bring a hat to protect his easily-burned head. He went in search of a hat, but, in loyal fashion, refused to buy a Giants hat. He assumed the stadium's gift shops would have other options. Wrong. When he inquired, they said, "Nope, we just sell Giants caps. That's all."

2006-05-24 14:51:36
199.   Sam DC
Grrr -- my point was that the 9 runs were scored without Pujols help.
2006-05-24 14:52:13
200.   ToyCannon
No he's the one who kicked our butts when we were winning 17-7 and he jumped over Richie Petibone and kickstarted the team to a rousing victory that I snarl at the memory even to this day.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2006-05-24 14:53:22
201.   Bob Timmermann

No, that was Bob Lee, subbing for an injured Frank Tarkenton.

Kapp led the Vikings to their first Super Bowl appearance and that was when Tarkenton was playing for the NY Giants.

He was not a particularly gifted QB. But he was gritty. And scrappy. And inspirational.

The year Kapp led the Vikings to the Super Bowl (1969) he coined the slogan "40 for 60" meaning that the whole team would play the whole game. He had 19 TD passes and 13 INTS. The next season he was on the Patriots and he threw 3 TDs with 17 INTs and served as a role model for Cal's QB last year, Joe Ayoob.

2006-05-24 14:53:34
202.   Jacob L
Munter has allowed 36 baserunners in 16 1/3 innings. They must have thought he was better than Tyler Walker, though.
2006-05-24 14:54:17
203.   ToyCannon
If you go to Staples center when the Lakers are playing they will only sell Laker gear except for the team store which sells all LA team gear. Maybe this is a trend everywhere now?
2006-05-24 14:55:14
204.   ToyCannon
He was also famous for the wobbly pass that somehow found it's mark.
2006-05-24 14:56:12
205.   Bob Timmermann
Not at Dodger Stadium. You can find stuff from every team I believe in the Top of the Park store.
2006-05-24 14:56:49
206.   underdog
202 Which shows you: a) how desperate they are and/or b) how bad Tyler Walker was...

203 Maybe so - but I just remember from being at other baseball stadiums that their gear stores usually offered a few other teams in addition to the home team. Don't they want to make money over pushing one franchise? But maybe it's changing...

2006-05-24 14:56:55
207.   blue22
So much for Odalis to NY? El Duque traded to the Mets for Jorge Julio, apparently.
2006-05-24 14:57:23
208.   Jacob L
Supposedly Ayoob leapfrogged the entire depth chart in spring practice and stands a good shot at being the starter this year, too. The Joe will not quit.

I usually frown on discussion of other sports here, except to toss in the occasional "I can't believe you guys are still into the Lakers" comment. I'm cool with Cal, though. And Jon knows darn well who Joe Kapp is.

2006-05-24 14:58:12
209.   bhsportsguy
198 - I forgot my hat when I went to Colorado last year, did find a Dodger cap in their gift shop, never really looked for another team's hat at the Dodger Stadium shop but will check it out next time I am there.

In regards to the Guzman comments, I think its fine if spends all year in AAA learning a different position and working on his pitch identification. Lets remember that he usually is among the youngest players in whatever league he is in and he has time to refine his skills.

Now if Repko and Ledee are going to be out past the All-Star break and Werth ends up sitting out the whole year, then you have to look at him, Young or Kemp, not sure if Kemp will play much in Vegas, but he and Chad would eventually need someone to come off the 40 man to make the club.

2006-05-24 14:59:28
210.   Marty
I'm mad at Joe Kapp to this day. He was also the worst thing about the original Longest Yard.
2006-05-24 14:59:58
211.   Bob Timmermann
Do you have any link for that trade?
2006-05-24 15:01:49
212.   overkill94
The most annoying thing about SF is how they call themselves "the city". A friend of mine said she heard I was moving to "the city" and I had no clue what she was talking about. If that's not arrogance I don't know what is.
2006-05-24 15:02:09
213.   Bob Timmermann

I hate the entire Minnesota Vikings franchise. I shuddered at the thought that they would move here. The only fitting thing for the Vikings is to have the franchise disbanded and then have their practice facility razed and to salt the earth afterwards.

Then I would go to Canton and systematically remove the busts of Tarkenton, Grant, Krause, Page, Eller, Yary and anyone else connected with the franchise.

Then I would get really mad!

2006-05-24 15:02:21
214.   blue22
Just a couple of reports on message boards, but no links.

If I see something legit, I'll post it.

2006-05-24 15:03:15
215.   Jacob L
You've always been able to buy other teams' hats at Dodger Stadium. What you can't buy, that always kind of bugged me, is Dodger minor league hats. When Vegas became the 51s, I really wanted one of those alien hats. I finally got one through mail order, but was disappointed when I'd made a special trip to Top of the Park for that purpose.
2006-05-24 15:04:13
216.   blue22
211 - ESPNews is reporting it on TV, according to Rotoworld.
2006-05-24 15:04:27
217.   overkill94
211 Apparently WFAN out of New York is reporting it.

And now I just saw it on the ticker on ESPN.

2006-05-24 15:04:34
218.   King of the Hobos
Rotoworld says ESPNews has announced the trade
2006-05-24 15:04:50
219.   Samuel
If Ayoob is Cal's starting qb, i don't know how I could go to any of next yr's home games without losing my sanity. Though, he does a good job as a holder for extra points and field goals.
2006-05-24 15:06:16
220.   underdog
212 Yeah, that's always annoyed me here, too, though I think at this point it's kind of a habit that people don't think much about - and is more of a locally arrogant thing than a state or nationally arrogant thing, i.e., "we're the big city of the bay area." (Of course, San Jose now has more people. But much of it feels less like a city and more like sprawl, but still...)
2006-05-24 15:07:28
221.   GoBears
183 194 OK, now you've done it. Bringing back Joe "Snatching Defeat from the Jaws of Victory" Kapp. Ugh.

My favorite Kapp memories are from "bonfire rallies" in the Greek Theater next to Memorial Stadium. One time, he yelled out his pet "The Bear Will Not Quit! The Bear Will Not Die!" chant, to which the assembled students replied, nearly in unison, "THE BEAR WILL NOT WIN!" Yeah, we really sucked back then.

Then, another time, he tried out the C-A-L spell-off (something even a u$c grad ought to be able to handle):

Kapp: Give me a "C"
Students: C !!!

Kapp: Give me a "L"
Students: L ????

Kapp: Give me an "A"
Students: ....mumbling.....

Kapp: Uh, give me a "W"!


2006-05-24 15:08:15
222.   Jon Weisman
208 - Yeah. I just couldn't remember who was the QB in that Viking game. Bob Lee - I guess I repressed his name.

My first in-person dose of NFL disappointment was the 37-7 pasting the Rams took from the Cowboys, in the NFC Championship game I think.

2006-05-24 15:12:40
223.   Jon Weisman
220 - In college, we always talked about going to San Francisco as "going to the city" and I didn't think twice about it. I didn't ascribe any signficance to it. But it was clear that we didn't mean San Jose when we said it. Sort of like growing up in Woodland Hills, if someone said they were going "downtown," I knew they didn't mean downtown Burbank.

Of course, before I actually got to Stanford, I envisoned going to San Francisco all the time, but it turned out to be relatively rare.

2006-05-24 15:13:53
224.   Bob Timmermann
Bob Lee later played for the Rams and bailed them out in a few regular season games toward the end of the season. That was the year of the Rams only Super Bowl appearance as the "Los Angeles Rams."

Some people wanted Lee to start in the playoffs instead of Ferragamo.

2006-05-24 15:17:02
225.   Vishal
[208] nooooooo! what happened to longshore?
2006-05-24 15:17:04
226.   underdog
223 When we say we're going to The City here we actually usually mean Daly City. It's the center of a parallel universe. (A very boring, horrible parallel universe.)
2006-05-24 15:17:45
227.   ToyCannon
Checking out Hardtimes stats and the RC/G number that I love.
For a metric Pujols in 2006 is 14.7 and nobody with over 100 ab's is even close in the NL. Thome has a 12.6 in AL.

For players who are currently starters:
Aybar - 15.0 - that's right, higher then the man but only 39 ab's.
Nomar - 11.6 only other full time player higher then Nomar is Alou, whose currently on the dl with 12.0. Nomar now has racked up 121 ab's.
Repko - had a 10.0 in 80 ab's before getting hurt.
JD Drew - only a 7.1, not what I expected.
Kenny Lofton - 6.3 - right in the middle for NL CF at this point. Even ahead of A Jones, Edmunds, Cameron. Ryan Church who many have suggested we acquire is at 6.9.
Russ Martin - 5.8 - is 6th amoung starting catchers. Thought he'd be higher. Ausmus at 7.0 is a shocker.
Kent - 6.6 - moving up, already in top 5

2006-05-24 15:18:38
228.   Jon Weisman
Almost a cycle for the Cardinal pitchers: double, triple, homer.
2006-05-24 15:18:53
229.   Jon Weisman
(Not that Marquis pitched, but I think he counts.)
2006-05-24 15:28:37
230.   Steve
This should basically speak for itself:

"Tracy has been blamed for not stressing good fundamentals, regarded as the gravest sin by many fans. But who's to say Tracy hasn't been stressing fundamentals?"

Tragedy tomorrow...and come to think of it, tragedy tonight.

2006-05-24 15:30:03
231.   Nagman
Didn't the professional basketball franchise in the bay area at one time have uniforms that said "The City" on them?
2006-05-24 15:33:30
232.   Vishal
perhaps "the city" is a shortened form of "the city and county of san francisco"
2006-05-24 15:35:11
233.   Jon Weisman
Why is there an x for the bottom of the ninth on Gameday in San Francisco's home defeat.
2006-05-24 15:38:34
234.   underdog
Maybe that's the GameDay equivalent of dead cartoon characters who have X's where their eyes used to be?
2006-05-24 15:51:57
235.   bhsportsguy
Oh no, they are playing Cruz instead of Ethier.

Actually, I think Andre will play a lot in the humid D.C. and Atlanta road trip. Just don't know how long they can keep only 4 outfielders, would be interested to find out more about the Aybar in the outfield project.

2006-05-24 15:56:23
236.   bhsportsguy
Bob - link - trade
El Duque now joins the list of Yankee/Met players.

2006-05-24 15:57:49
237.   Jacob L
225, 219 - Longshore is fine, but supposedly Ayoob was just spectacular in spring ball. A new man. I just repeat what I read (Chronicle, I think). At least this year, they should have options.
2006-05-24 16:00:35
238.   bhsportsguy
Just for fun see how many of these Met/Yankees also played for the Dodgers, I counted 10, though that was a quick glance which now I think should be 11 because I don't think I counted Straw.

2006-05-24 16:01:03
239.   Bob Timmermann
If I hadn't been looking for Livan, I probably would have found that...


2006-05-24 16:03:38
240.   Jon Weisman
Game thread is open up top.
2006-05-24 16:05:24
241.   blue22
The club did not name replacement for the right-handed Hernandez in the rotation, but righty Russ Ortiz, lefty Terry Mulholland and righty Kevin Jarvis are considered candidates.

Arizona has traded 3 starters since the end of last year (Vasquez, Halsey, and now Duque) and their rotation is Webb, Batista, C Vargas, Cruz, and Ortiz/Mulholland/Jarvis.

Who thinks AZ's stay in first place is temporary?

2006-05-24 16:09:56
242.   Steve
Who thinks AZ's stay in first place is temporary?

Raises hand, but it's not going to end tonight.

2006-05-24 17:14:24
243.   ToyCannon
Don't underestimate the GM. I think he's setting himself up to make a big deal and I still think they will be with us most of the year. They have more trading pieces then we do.

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