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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Whither the Jungle?
2006-06-26 12:16
by Jon Weisman

Sometimes I pitch column ideas to; sometimes my editor pitched ideas to me. The first time I did an Eric Gagne story for was my idea, but I found it interesting that only two months later, I was asked to revisit Gagne and look ahead at the Dodgers' future with or without him ...

The memory of Eric Gagne entering a ballgame is one of the most profound that fans of the Los Angeles Dodgers have.

Right now, that's what Gagne is -- a memory, threateningly fleeting.

The entrance from the Dodger Stadium bullpen that made men rise and women dance. The whip of his first pitch that made them all swoon. Bigger than the Oscars, big like a California earthquake, Gagne was a rapid heartbeat for the masses.

But fan favorites have no small history of meeting a banal end with the Dodgers. The franchise allowed Steve Garvey to leave as a free agent, let Kirk Gibson go two Octobers after his World Series glory and released Fernando Valenzuela in Spring Training. Mike Piazza? Don't ask.

Today, 20 months removed from winning the 2004 National League Cy Young Award, Gagne might prove no exception. He's going to try -- as soon as this week if, as he hopes, the nerve pain in his throwing arm is completely gone -- to begin a workout program that will have him back on the mound in July. Neither Gagne's talent nor determination guarantees he will be able to pitch for any significant duration this season. And nothing guarantees Gagne will wear a Dodger uniform in 2007. ...

* * *

In other news, surgery is not scheduled for Dodger prospect Andy La Roche, according to Baseball America. LaRoche had been diagnosed with a slight labrum tear earlier this month, but BA writes that he's back on a throwing program.

"He threw Saturday and he threw today and feels OK," Dodgers scouting director Logan White said on Sunday. "It's just now where he's throwing with no pain, though he hasn't really aired it out yet. So we'll see, but we're pleased with the way he's responded."

LaRoche has been hitting off a tee and took some live batting practice over the weekend while the team was in Tucson.

Thanks to Dodger Thoughts reader ToyCannon for passing along the report.

* * *

Today's Game

Comments (498)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2006-06-26 12:42:45
1.   bigcpa
I was about to read the Gagne column when I stumbled on this at

"A National League source said the Dodgers approached the Marlins within the past week with a package of highly-regarded prospects and big-league ready players. According to the source, Florida said Dontrelle Willis wasn't available. --"

2006-06-26 12:55:45
2.   LAT
The only way I see Gagne in a Dodger uniform next year is if he signs a one year deal on the cheap to showcase that he is healthy so he can sign a longer term deal. The type of contract Nomar signed but for less money.
Gagne may still have something left but he will never be as dominate as he was.
2006-06-26 12:56:02
3.   thinkblue0

it really wouldn't shock me at all to see Guzman be the centerpiece in a deal for Willis.

Although, it'd be MUCH nicer to nab Willis AND Cabrera :)

I don't understand why the Marlins refuse to trade the guy...he really isn't THAT good, and it's not as if they're going to spend the cash to keep him in the future. In fact, I hope the only way we get him is if we don't give up any guys like Bills, Guzman, Dewitt, Laroche etc.

2006-06-26 13:01:06
4.   gcrl
hijacking the thread - back to the weather. it's raining here in mpls, but it doesn't matter, thanks to the hubert h humphrey dome!

forgot to mention in my comments about the sat night twinks/cubs that a few beachballs made what i believe to be their first appearance at the dome. it was interesting to watch the uninitiated stumble over each other trying to keep the balls away from the ushers.

sure would have been nice to have had the possibility of a gagne sighting this series, but it will still be good to see billingsley tonight. as long as he isn't traded to the marlins prior to gametime...

2006-06-26 13:03:29
5.   Sushirabbit
3. I say that about Willis everytime I have the chance to draft him in a fantasy league. I always worry about his ability to endure the innings he pitches... people had the same worries about Pedro Martinez. Not saying they are alike, but, well I think he'd be better than the last 3 in the rotation.
2006-06-26 13:05:26
6.   Jon Weisman
Lastest Pirates Q&A with the easy-to-read Dejan Kovacevic:

2006-06-26 13:07:57
7.   bigcpa
3 Well that's my problem- he isn't that good. Granted his 4.08 ERA is a bit deceiving since nearly half of his ER came in a 3-game skid in May. If you look closer Willis is essentially Derek Lowe. 5 K/9, pitches deep in games, rubber arm. I suppose he'd make a nice #3 but at what price.
2006-06-26 13:08:09
8.   thinkblue0

yeah, he'd be better than the last three in the rotation, but is that saying much? I've never had a problem with his ability to endure innings pitched, I have a problem with the fact that he simply isn't all that good. He's REALLY not worth giving up top prospects for...I just have a feeling Flanders is going to overpay for Willis because he's really the only decent starter on the market.

2006-06-26 13:15:36
9.   D4P
There is plenty enough evidence that a good number of these players are giving their all, but, to be blunt, I see little of that happening at a team level. Obviously, one of the manager's chief responsibilities is to ensure that the latter is happening.

What does that mean? Is what happens at the "team level" different from the sum of what happens at the individual player level?

2006-06-26 13:24:14
10.   Jon Weisman
9 - I think he's saying that maybe not everyone is giving their best. Whether that's true, I don't know, but I think the implication is "a good number of players" is not everyone.
2006-06-26 13:26:58
11.   gcrl
meanwhile, papelbon blows a save in boston...
2006-06-26 13:30:26
12.   Humma Kavula
11 On a homer off the foul pole!
2006-06-26 13:37:05
13.   BlueMamma
8 - is it overpaying if he's the best on the market, though? i mean, if you have a giant need (a decent starter) and there's only one out there, how much is overpaying?
2006-06-26 13:37:05
14.   D4P
Is he implying that "Teams who are playing well have a higher percentage of players who are giving their best than teams that are playing poorly"? I'm not totally convinced that the Pirates' primary problem is that their players are not giving 100%. I think their primary problem is that they're not very good to start out with. Course, Tracy's managing makes a negative contribution, but would they really be a good team if they had a good manager (whatever a good manager is)?
2006-06-26 13:38:20
15.   Uncle Miltie
I love these Pittsburg writers. They are able to see through Tracy.

The best ones
WHYGAVS: Was the reaction by the players (especially Bay and Jack Wilson)after yesterday's game in any part due to their frustration with the way Tracy publicly blames them while never looking in the mirror, or did they actually mean they thought the roster needs a shakeup?

Dejan Kovacevic: Yes on both counts. The players have made clear -- more as each day goes by -- that they do not appreciate the lack of accountability in the manager's office, and you might have noticed in this morning's paper that it has not escaped the owner's attention, either.

MeganAnn_sDad: Injuries aside, wouldn't it make more sense to give Ryan Doumit a legitimate shot at being the 1st baseman? He's younger, cheaper, and has more potential than Casey.

Dejan Kovacevic: There are a lot of variables in trying to teach Doumit, just as there in trying to wait for Brad Eldred. That is the main reason the Pirates apparently feel the sense of urgency to retain Sean Casey.

Benny86: Do you think Tracy will forced to shake-up his coaching staff in the near future?

Dejan Kovacevic: I think he would sooner throw himself before a moving vehicle.

2006-06-26 13:38:43
16.   Ladderkite
11 Papelbon is the truth. I really like the cut of his jib. despite the foul pole.
2006-06-26 13:41:31
17.   thinkblue0
is it overpaying if he's the best on the market, though?

it's overpaying no matter what. That's like giving up three top prospects for Craig Wilson and going "well, he's the best hitter ont he market." That makes absolutely no sense. You give up what you think a player is worth...if the Dbacks wanna give up their prospects for Willis then go right ahead....but I'll be pretty annoyed if we give up a package of really good prospects for an okay pitcher which is what Willis is.

2006-06-26 13:41:58
18.   Ladderkite
Overpaying for Willis? In the current trade market, it's heck of a lot better than overpaying for Livan, Maddux, or anybody else out there. At least he's a (hold for the cringe) character guy and a proven star. And not to mention he is young and will be a great draw (not that the #1 drawing team needs help in that dept)
2006-06-26 13:44:31
19.   Ladderkite
I am defending Willis, but I still believe we won't be getting him. He won't be traded. That team is going to good to trade him...or Cabrera.
2006-06-26 13:47:01
20.   thinkblue0
someone please explain to me why everyone think s Willis is worth giving up top prospects for...please. The guy is 4-7 with a 4.05 ERA and a 1.39 whip with a K/bb ratio that is under 2.00.

He dominated last year, but the year before was VERY similar to his numbers this year. I'm more inclined to think Willis is the guy who's pitching right now and not the guy who pitched last year. I'm just not willing to give up a package of our farm system for a guy with a 4 ERA.

2006-06-26 13:48:41
21.   Telemachos
From another Dejan article about the Bucs' 10th consecutive loss on Saturday:

Asked if he might make moves within the starting lineup or batting order simply to shake things up, manager Jim Tracy replied, "For me to answer that question, ask yourself what you would shake up. If I had a number of options, that's something I would comment on."

Brilliant. Simply brilliant.

2006-06-26 13:51:24
22.   thinkblue0

I'm so glad all of this stuff is finally coming to light for others. I'm gonna sound really harsh here, but Tracy really seems like a scumbag. Take some responsibility for your team. When he started throwing our players under the bus last year was when I'd officially had enough of the guy...I hope the Bucs have the guts to ante up and just get rid of him....

2006-06-26 13:52:32
23.   D4P
I'm gonna sound really harsh here, but Tracy really seems like a scumbag.

It's OK: you're among friends.

2006-06-26 13:53:24
24.   Jon Weisman
14 - "I'm not totally convinced that the Pirates' primary problem is that their players are not giving 100%. I think their primary problem is that they're not very good to start out with. "

I don't think me, Dejan or anyone else is disagreeing with you about their primary problem. He was just answering the question he was asked, right?

2006-06-26 13:53:54
25.   Ladderkite
20 it was eluded to earlier that the bulk of Willis' ERA is aresult of his skid last month. Which many have attributed to WBC fatigue. His W/L can't even be a measure of his success, because he plays for the Marlins. They are hot now but weren't previously. Furthermore, Willis gave up ONE run to the Yankees in his last start in the bronx and lost. He's got it going now and he's young and he's a lefty and he's the best possible addition we can make to our staff in the next year and a half. The free agent market sucks this year and we're tapped out in the farm system for arms.
2006-06-26 13:55:36
26.   Jacob L
Several comments -

1. I'm really sorry I missed the DT outing on Friday. Looked like a blast, but my daughter wasn't feeling well, along with other complications in my weekend plans. I hope this won't be the last time.

2. Tracy is nuts. Was he always this nuts? Someone other than Steve?

3. The fact that LaRoche is not having surgery AND is throwing and hitting already is quite vexing. Can we just play it safe for one time?

2006-06-26 13:55:55
27.   Jon Weisman
There's an outfielder for everyone's taste today, thanks to Drew DH-ing.
2006-06-26 13:57:37
28.   D4P
I suppose so. But I'm still left to question the implication that Tracy is doing a relatively bad job (in comparison to other managers) of getting his players to give 100%.
2006-06-26 13:58:01
29.   Jacob L
and one other thing -

4. My opinion on a prospects for Willis trade depends entirely on which prospects. I don't see any reason to go into it more than that, except to say that I'm not completely against the idea.

2006-06-26 14:00:13
30.   El Dios Azul
Willis would be a nice addition, as long as we do not have to trade any of the youngsters on the major league roster. If Florida wants Joel Guzman, they would have them. I do not want to see Kemp, Billingsley, Either, or Martin dealt.
2006-06-26 14:00:26
31.   JoeyP
Since Chad Billingsley is pitching tonite, here's a stat of the day (Not being negative just reporting whats happened so far):

Billingsley's pitches: 195
Opponent swing and misses: 4

2006-06-26 14:01:37
32.   Jacob L
30 Aybar, Kuo, Broxton, Loney, Navarro?
2006-06-26 14:02:12
33.   El Dios Azul
31 Interesting statistic.... That would help explain why he throws so many pitches in so few innings.
2006-06-26 14:03:48
34.   El Dios Azul
32 I would give them Aybar, Kuo or Broxton, and Loney or Navarro.

If they want both Loney and Navarro, I would ask for one of their young arms in return. How about Petit or Alvarez, now I am dreaming.

Shoot, keep Willis, give us Petit or Alvarez and we can have a true youth movememnt in Los Angeles.

2006-06-26 14:04:18
35.   thinkblue0
it was eluded to earlier that the bulk of Willis' ERA is aresult of his skid last month

see, everyone likes to use selective stats like this and that's simply not valid. The bottom line is that we're about halfway through the season and the guy has an ERA of 4. I don't care where he pitched, those are his numbers.

Willis gave up ONE run to the Yankees in his last start in the bronx and lost.

he gave up two. But I still don't understand the point of using that. I could easily point out that he gave up six runs in his last start against the Cardinals.

He's got it going now and he's young and he's a lefty and he's the best possible addition we can make to our staff in the next year and a half. The free agent market sucks this year and we're tapped out in the farm system for arms.

really? Last I checked the free agent market was going to have guys like Zito and Schmidt. I just for the life of me can't understand why people say stuff like "he's the best possible addition." what!? That doesn't mean that he's worth giving up a lot of talent for. I mean, if Craig Wilson was the only bat on the market would you advocate getting him because he's the "best possible addition"? No...and while this team DOES need starting pitching help, getting a guy with a 4 ERA for our top talent would be a very, VERY bad baseball move.

We can use all the selective stats we want, and make up all the excuses we want...but the bottom line is that Willis has put up one good year in three, and besides that one the other two are basically average years. Willis is an average pitcher.

2006-06-26 14:04:30
36.   natepurcell
I love you Das, that Journey video in the last thread makes my day since i have to go to work and can't see Chad pitch.
2006-06-26 14:04:56
37.   BajaDodgers
I think the guy is in the wrong business, with those answers Tracy ought to be in politics, hopefully a long way from here. Always beating around the bush!!!
2006-06-26 14:05:26
38.   El Dios Azul
35 replace Alvarez with Anibal Sanchez. I am not sure where I got Alvarez from, I am getting old.
2006-06-26 14:11:28
39.   Ladderkite
35 - You said I am more inclined to think that Willis is the guy who is pitching right now. Well the guy who is pitching right now is the guy who just went into Yankee stadium. I do care where he pitched. Pitching well in Yankee stadium is definately better than pitching well in PNC Park or Petco. It's not selective to answer the question with the most current data. And furthermore, don't beg the question if you don't actually want an answer. You're welcome. Zito and Schmidt are old and expensive and possibly not in our best interest. Livan and maddux are obviously bad (very bad) baseball decisions.
2006-06-26 14:14:31
40.   JoeyP
Furcal, SS
Lofton, CF
Garciaparra, 1B
Drew, DH
Kent, 2B
Ethier, LF
Kemp, RF
Izturis, 3B
Martin, C
Billingsley, P
2006-06-26 14:19:09
41.   Ladderkite
35 - I am also completly willing to admit there were indeed two runs. That was my mistake. 3-1 in his last five starts. The pitcher he is right now.
2006-06-26 14:23:24
42.   Linkmeister
"Pitching well in Yankee stadium is definately better than pitching well in PNC Park or Petco."

Well, maybe, but the Dodgers don't play in Yankee Stadium more than once every three or four years. They play a lot of games at PNC and Petco. I'd rather have a pitcher who pitched well in stadia where the team goes regularly.

2006-06-26 14:31:44
43.   NPB
All right. Imagine that lineup with Martin in the two hole, Lofton batting 8th, and Izturis 9th. Better, right?

Also, it seems like Kemp and Ethier should be flip-flopped.

But what do I know? I haven't played an inning of organized baseball since 1981.

2006-06-26 14:35:42
44.   Steve
Someone other than Steve?

[kicks can, puts hands in pockets, drops head, exits stage left to tune of sad Peanuts music]

2006-06-26 14:39:51
45.   Jon Weisman
43 - The lineup as is has no back-to-back righties or lefties.


I do think that keeping Martin at the bottom is as close as Little comes to Tracy-like stubbornness, but I'm not losing sleep over it right now.

2006-06-26 14:42:03
46.   overkill94
As one-sided as everyone seems to make the Martin over Lofton in the 2-hole debate, here's the important stat:

Lofton - .372 OBP
Martin - .379 OBP

Frankly I'd rather have Martin's RBI ability lower in the line-up since there's still a viable on-base option like Lofton to plug into the 2-hole.

2006-06-26 14:43:17
47.   overkill94
Which isn't to say I don't think Martin shouldn't be batting at least ahead of Izturis.
2006-06-26 14:46:55
48.   Ladderkite
42 - I think you missed the point. I was pointing out that the players playing in Yankee stadium are better hitters than those hitting in PNC (ex: Arod vs Craig Wilson). And that Yankee stadium is a better hitting environment than Petco...etc. Plus there is an extra real hitter in AL parks obviously. That was my point.
2006-06-26 14:47:03
49.   Sushirabbit
45 - yeah, so long has he keeps having runners ahead of him to knock in.
2006-06-26 14:51:29
50.   D4P
[kicks can, puts hands in pockets, drops head, exits stage left to tune of sad Peanuts music]

"Christmas time is here, happiness and cheer..."

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2006-06-26 14:59:41
51.   dsfan
I've got no problem with Martin batting low in the order. The kid already has a loaded plate. He's a rookie catcher short on pro experience. He's catching a pretty difficult staff. His manager doesn't believe in resting him.
Asking a bit less of him as a hitter is a good thing.
2006-06-26 15:05:53
52.   Johnson

I imagine that being said by a photography geek with a stutter.

2006-06-26 15:06:37
53.   Telemachos
I also don't have a problem with Martin batting 8th -- the lower half of the order is very capable of putting together a rally, and more often than not it's Martin coming up (and delivering) with runners on base. Not to mention, of course, that even with no runners on, his ability to get on base means we don't have the pitcher's spot leading off the next inning.
2006-06-26 15:09:40
54.   jasonungar05
U know its bad when u talk about yourself in the third person and trade yourself. Salomon Torres of the Pirates...

"It might happen. And if that's what it's going to take for us to be a better team, for Salomon to go somewhere else ... I don't want to see this team suffer anymore. This is eating us alive. It's killing us. You know, I'm willing to leave my arm on that mound for my team. A lot of us have that feeling. But something's not clicking."

2006-06-26 15:17:18
55.   Vaudeville Villain
Nobody on our team should be hitting behind Izturis. Except maybe the pitcher.
2006-06-26 15:29:03
56.   Jon Weisman

"McClatchy said he still believes manager Jim Tracy, who has perpetually dwelled on the team's 7-21 record in one-run games as an indication of how close the Pirates are to contention, and general manager Dave Littlefield are the right men for the job."

The following is not about Tracy, but about one-run games.

If the Pirates split their one-run games, they'd be 33-44.

Even with 28 one-run games, second-most in the league, the team's run differential is second-worst in the league. (Better than the Cubs, at least!)

In 49 non-one-run games, the Pirates have a 19-30 record and have been outscored by 43 runs.

2006-06-26 15:34:11
57.   mob
what happened to Penny yesterday? did he just get tired? Is he hurt? have been unable to hear any real news but some newscaster last night alluded to the possibility he mighht be hurting?

Any info would be appreciated.

2006-06-26 15:42:45
58.   still bevens
57 I don't think it was anything out of the ordinary for Penny - too many full counts, too many fouls. He had thrown about 90-100 pitches by the 5th.
2006-06-26 15:49:32
59.   Bluebleeder87

let's hope that's all it was it.

2006-06-26 15:56:22
60.   DXMachina

Steve: "Every Christmas it's the same. I always end up playing a shepherd."

2006-06-26 15:58:32
61.   Jon Weisman
I used to say "I got a rock" all the time.
2006-06-26 16:00:56
62.   ToyCannon
Must win tonight:)

Twins have won 14 of 16 games and only gained 1 game on the Tigers and a 1 1/2 on the WS. How frustrating must that be? If a team in the West put together that kind of streak the Division race would be over.

Who knew that the AL Central would be the best in baseball in 2006 and that the Indians wouldn't be part of the strength.

2006-06-26 16:08:34
63.   Bluebleeder87

Toy, your an awesome dude thanks for the support. :o)

2006-06-26 16:08:59
64.   Jon Weisman
This is the game thread.
2006-06-26 16:09:52
65.   Bluebleeder87

Jon I'm kind of jealous of you because my chick said you had nice eyes.

2006-06-26 16:14:45
66.   s choir
Minnesota's strength is their dome-field advantage. Their streak started by salvaging the last game of a series in Seattle. They then had Baltimore at home and Boston at home, then visited Pittsburgh for some automatic wins. They did win 2 of 3 in Houston, which is an accomplishment for them, but probably had a lot to do with the fact that they were on a roll. They then went home and swept the Cubs.

I don't think the Twins are a very good team. But they are tough at home. This will be a difficult series for the Dodgers, and it would be a huge accomplishment if they were to take two games of it.

2006-06-26 16:16:17
67.   Bluebleeder87
Silva 3-8, 6.87

that's Silva's record (Let's rock 'um!)

2006-06-26 16:18:38
68.   Bluebleeder87

momentum goes along way. (let's see were the Dodgers momentum is)

2006-06-26 16:19:35
69.   thinkingblue
Furcal, SS
Lofton, CF
Garciaparra, 1B
Drew, DH
Kent, 2B
Ethier, LF
Kemp, RF
Izturis, 3B
Martin, C
Billingsley, P

You know we're in an AL ball park right?

Also, typo in that article, Gagne won the CY Young in 2003.

2006-06-26 16:21:54
70.   thinkingblue
EDIT: did't see the DH, and was thrown off when I saw Billinglsey's name.
2006-06-26 16:23:03
71.   Blu2
I have no problem with Ethier hitting in front of Kemp, somebody on base if he hits a homer. And he'd better, or people are going to start thinking he's a mortal...
2006-06-26 16:28:06
72.   Bluebleeder87
For some reason I like Kemp against Silva
2006-06-26 16:42:23
73.   regfairfield
66 It also helps that this is the non-incompetent version of the Twins. I said at the start of the season they would be good if they didn't pussyfoot around with veterans like they did in years past. In the beginning they did, starting Tony Batista over Michael Cuddyer, Lew Ford over Jason Kubel, Juan Castro over Jason Bartlett and Kyle Lohse instead of Fransico Liriano.

Now that the Twins stopped handicapping themselves, they should actually be a good team.

2006-06-26 17:00:23
74.   Gagne55
Fransisco Liriano saved my fantasy team. Anyway, this is the only game of the series the Dodgers should win. Liriano and Santana are deadly. Oh, and Billingsley is on my team now and I want the points for a win.
2006-06-26 17:01:05
75.   overkill94
72 I like everyone against Silva.

Then again, his stats are skewed by a dreadful month of April (10.90 ERA). He's been pretty mediocre since then, posting ERA's in the mid 4's in May and June. He does give up a lot of homers (18 in 76 IP), so hopefully Kemp can lay off some breaking balls and bust out his whooping stick.

2006-06-26 17:01:25
76.   Marty
The AL Central is amazing. I have paid zero attention to Detroit. How are they doing it, with mirrors? Or are they legitimate?
2006-06-26 17:02:49
77.   Bob Timmermann
1) Check Detroit's pitchers
2) Check Detroit's records against teams not called the White Sox, Red Sox, and Yankees.
2006-06-26 17:05:54
78.   Marty
I saw The Da Vinci Code today. Not worth the matinee price of 6.75.
2006-06-26 17:08:21
79.   Bob Timmermann
Hey, I reviewed that movie on the Griddle! I could have told you that!
2006-06-26 17:08:27
80.   Bluebleeder87

you recomend Superman?

2006-06-26 17:11:51
81.   Bob Timmermann
Can't say, I haven't seen it.
2006-06-26 17:17:48
82.   Linkmeister
78 When I reviewed the book I said it wasn't worth the $7.99 I paid for that, either.
2006-06-26 17:18:44
83.   thinkblue0
I caught Superman about a week ago...if you like super hero movies you'll like this...definitely worth seeing.
2006-06-26 17:20:42
84.   D4P
Has anyone watched the TV drama, "The Closer"? I see the show's star (Kyra Sedgwick) all over the place right now, in newspapers, magazines, etc. I haven't watched it before, but I'm thinking of checking it out tonight.
2006-06-26 17:20:59
85.   overkill94
Luis Castillo's not that fast anymore, I don't think a pitchout is necessary.
2006-06-26 17:22:35
86.   Bob Timmermann
I like "The Closer" although I was disappointed to see that Eric Gagne doesn't appear in it.

It has both quirky and conventional elements to it. Kyra Sedgwick's character is odd.

2006-06-26 17:23:46
87.   Bob Timmermann
At least:

1) Silva is starting
2) The Padres are off tonight

2006-06-26 17:24:00
88.   thinkblue0
Billingsley is gonna have to start getting people to swing and miss...bats are constantly on the ball.
2006-06-26 17:27:38
89.   Xeifrank
DodgerSims has the Dodgers blowing out the Twins tonight and Billingsley pitching deeper into the game. The BlueCrew needs to win tonight as the Twins weakest link is pitching against them.
vr, Xei
2006-06-26 17:27:49
90.   Bob Timmermann
So these swing and miss things count as strikes don't they?
2006-06-26 17:28:29
91.   D4P
Thanks for the review, Bob. "Quirky" is a word I've heard more than once with respect to the show. On one hand, I'm not all that excited about yet another hour-long crime drama. TV needs another of those like the Dodgers need another banjo-hitting shortstop. On the other hand, I am favorably disposed to Kyra Sedgwick (in what little exposure I've had to her). She doesn't bug me, which is rare for a "celebrity."
2006-06-26 17:29:22
92.   overkill94
Wow, I just saw the game flash before my eyes.
2006-06-26 17:30:06
93.   Bluebleeder87
close call
2006-06-26 17:31:43
94.   Bluebleeder87
Let's score some runs
2006-06-26 17:33:36
95.   thinkblue0
we're smoking the ball off Silva....
2006-06-26 17:34:02
96.   overkill94
Did that DP give the boys in blue some momentum? Let's see what the golden boys can do about it...
2006-06-26 17:34:27
97.   Sam DC
Anyone of you DC readers want to pitch in on my ark? Denizen, Capdodger, Purple Hippo, anyone?
2006-06-26 17:34:41
98.   capdodger
Good article. One thing I noticed was that the word "former" was missing from your normal sig at the end of the article. Is this a sign, or an error?
2006-06-26 17:35:04
99.   Gen3Blue
I didn't realize Bills control was so bad, but he almost screwed himself with walks.
Looking back at his stats though, he is young and he walks alot. Add ML hitters and rookie jitters and he has a lot of baserunners. But we have few options that might be better, so let him learn here.
2006-06-26 17:35:33
100.   thinkblue0
Eithier smokes it too....I'm smelling a Matt Kemp home run
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2006-06-26 17:37:54
101.   Linkmeister
Is DodgerSims related to former catcher Duke Sims?
2006-06-26 17:38:42
102.   DXMachina
Sam, I was considering building one yesterday, but I couldn't remember how many inches are in a cubit.
2006-06-26 17:40:10
103.   Marty
102 I'm reminded of an old Bill Cosby routine.
2006-06-26 17:40:40
104.   Linkmeister
102 Ah, Cosby.

"What's a cubit?"

"Never mind that."

From the "Noah" routine.

2006-06-26 17:41:11
105.   Linkmeister
103 Marty and I have the same album collection, I see.
2006-06-26 17:41:18
106.   thinkblue0
one pitch one out....bills can use an easy inning here.
2006-06-26 17:42:06
107.   capdodger
Sam, what do you want for a suite with a terrace? Or at least a porthole?
2006-06-26 17:42:29
108.   Jon Weisman
105 - I had every Cosby tape, I think. I knew that one cold.

98 - an error.

2006-06-26 17:42:47
109.   Gen3Blue
Seeing as Bills used 26 pitches in the first!
2006-06-26 17:42:56
110.   Marty
I wore the grooves off of that album.
2006-06-26 17:42:59
111.   Goozmani
thats the old-izturis we know.

1st pitch strike, take - fastball down the middle

2nd pitch curveball, down - pooey for contact.

2006-06-26 17:43:31
112.   capdodger
108 - Bummer.
2006-06-26 17:44:50
113.   Linkmeister
I've still got the album, along with a couple of the other early ones (1960s).
2006-06-26 17:45:12
114.   Gen3Blue
Oh dear, is Bills going to be another Penny?
Great pitcher, but about 7 pitches per batter.
Oh-- Bills is a bit wild.
2006-06-26 17:45:21
115.   Marty
Looking in my crystal ball, I see Odalis in the third...
2006-06-26 17:46:12
116.   overkill94
This umpire sure isn't helping him out either, a lot of these pitches are really close.
2006-06-26 17:46:21
117.   Sam DC
WHo are these people who play for the Twins?
2006-06-26 17:46:59
118.   Marty
113 I haven't seen that album in Decades. To show my memory is not what it was, is it the same one with the "ice cream" and "medic" routines?
2006-06-26 17:47:03
119.   capdodger
You sure Marty? I see him warming up in the second.
2006-06-26 17:47:30
120.   ssjames
I think that Martin needs to do just what he did with Lowe, go to the mound and not leave til Bills calms down.
2006-06-26 17:47:52
121.   Linkmeister
118 Hang on, I'll look.
2006-06-26 17:49:10
122.   adg
A curse on you LNP. Having Punto get an RBI has got to feel the same as letting Grabowski get one over on you.
2006-06-26 17:49:45
123.   Marty
That was ugly.
2006-06-26 17:50:11
124.   overkill94
The Metrodome is not an easy place for a young outfielder
2006-06-26 17:50:42
125.   adg
Just a sec. The catcher trippled? WTH?
2006-06-26 17:50:50
126.   Steve
This inning has the stench of Ja(y)sons about it.
2006-06-26 17:51:06
127.   ory
Billingsly's third outing and I've yet to see a good start.
First outing fair but nothing impressive so far.
2006-06-26 17:51:09
128.   capdodger
How can they call that a triple? It was a lazy flyball to left.
2006-06-26 17:51:35
129.   Humma Kavula

(a) Ethier got a glove on it, but missed
(b) The catcher is Joe Mauer, who leads the majors in hitting

2006-06-26 17:51:46
130.   overkill94
Bills really needs to start pounding the strike zone better, he's falling behind on everyone
2006-06-26 17:51:59
131.   Blu2
Billingsly may have a great arm but he is nowhere near to being a pitcher. Send him back down and start trading...
2006-06-26 17:52:15
132.   adg
To whom DOES Billz want to pitch?
2006-06-26 17:52:18
133.   Bluebleeder87
It's just my opinion but, I really think Grady dons't trust Honeycutt.
2006-06-26 17:52:30
134.   Gen3Blue
A case where if the D's could have given Bills a solid lead, he would have just thrown strikes.
2006-06-26 17:52:46
135.   DXMachina
103, 104, etc. - "Right..."
2006-06-26 17:53:14
136.   capdodger
131 - Trade for whom?
2006-06-26 17:53:32
137.   Linkmeister
Marty, hard to tell from the track titles. It's the "Bill Cosby is a Very Funny Fellow Right!" album, live at the Bitter End.

Back to baseball: 50 pitches in an inning and two-thirds?

2006-06-26 17:54:27
138.   Bluebleeder87
this is the first time I see Bills pitch, I'm kinda not impressed. But then again I'm not one to judge on first impressions
2006-06-26 17:55:48
139.   Gen3Blue
The Twins announcers try not to be homers, but they are so eager. I don't blame them, as this franchise consistently fields a good product for a small market team, but hasn't had that pile of luck yet, like the Marlins ie.
2006-06-26 17:56:02
140.   Uncle Miltie
Terrible play by Ethier. He completely misjudged that flyball.

Billingsley needs to throw strikes. If he wants to be Ishii II then he can go back to the minors. Throwing strikes and getting hammered is better than walking people and getting hammered. You have no chance of getting an out when you walk someone.

2006-06-26 17:56:53
141.   Linkmeister
137 Track list:
2006-06-26 17:56:55
142.   DXMachina
137 - That's the one. We had them all when I was a kid.
2006-06-26 17:57:06
143.   Gen3Blue
I wonder if the D's wll go to Bills aid.
2006-06-26 17:57:11
144.   Marty
Looking at the album listings, it's not that one. Probably an earlier one I used to listen to. I'll try to find it on the web.
2006-06-26 17:57:35
145.   Sam DC
I'm thinking he was trying to throw strikes.
2006-06-26 17:57:49
146.   Linkmeister
"Medic" is on the second album, "I Started out as a Child."
2006-06-26 17:58:51
147.   Linkmeister
Cosby discography from All Music Guide:

2006-06-26 18:00:12
148.   dsfan
How many starting pitchers have the Dodgers produced the last 5-8 years who posted good walk numbers in the minors and actually looked like they had touch and feel when they got up to the majors?

It seems like they collect a bunch of throwers.

2006-06-26 18:00:12
149.   herman
Bills looks alot like E. Jackson. He throws alot of pitches (mostly balls). Has a good fastball, but doesn't seem to be fooling anyone.
2006-06-26 18:00:43
150.   Marty
I see that the "medic" routine was on "I started out as a child". And "Tonsils", which I referred to as "ice cream" was on "Wonderfulness"
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2006-06-26 18:00:44
151.   herman
Bills looks alot like E. Jackson. He throws alot of pitches (mostly balls). Has a good fastball, but doesn't seem to be fooling anyone.
2006-06-26 18:01:13
152.   herman
Bills seems to always be in trouble.
2006-06-26 18:01:27
153.   blutomania

Superman is excellent. Although I am not impartial...

2006-06-26 18:01:46
154.   herman
Furcal looks slow.
2006-06-26 18:02:42
155.   Purple Hippopotamus
97 - People are sloshing along 16th Street--there's gotta be at least two inches on the sidewalk. Good thing I'm on the fifth floor.

I flew into Reagan last Thursday night/Friday morning from California and our pilot was dodging lighting strikes. We were the first plane to land in DC in 2.5 hours, so there were no taxis--just cranky, cranky people.

2006-06-26 18:03:36
156.   Gen3Blue
117 Basically guys from their system. If we had a small payroll we would prob. use Aybar, D. Young, And a few of our AAAA pitchers.
BTW Some of these ML outfits are so lame, don't you think a couple would trade for D. Young, Confusing him with Delman Young.
2006-06-26 18:05:14
157.   Bluebleeder87
Spyco & Stein beeing humble about our catcher (our catcher has skills too guys!)
2006-06-26 18:06:23
158.   DXMachina
156 - Nah, they'd know it wasn't Delmon the first time Delwyn threw his bat.
2006-06-26 18:06:54
159.   herman
What's up with Brett Myers. What a punk. I can't believe the phils allowed hin to pitch the next day. That is s@@@!! (and don't give me this innocent before prove guilty trash). There were plenty of witnesses.
2006-06-26 18:08:05
160.   overkill94
The problem with Bills seems to be that he's nibbling too much early in the count. I don't know if he's a little nervous about coming in to major league hitters or if he was getting those same pitches called for strikes in the minors, but if he could just bring those pitches in a couple inches it would allow him to throw his curveball more.
2006-06-26 18:10:03
161.   Bluebleeder87
wow did you guys see that call my Russell?
2006-06-26 18:11:13
162.   overkill94
Now that's how you play outfield!
2006-06-26 18:11:18
163.   herman
Bills seems to be afraid of contact. Let them hit the ball. He is trying to strike everyone out. NICE CATCH.
2006-06-26 18:11:37
164.   Gen3Blue
Hey! they just said something like our starters have the best ERA in the NL
Thank god for Kemp!
2006-06-26 18:11:42
165.   Andrew Shimmin
Send that ball to Cooperstown.
2006-06-26 18:12:05
166.   Bluebleeder87
wow! did you see that catch by Kemp!!?
2006-06-26 18:12:17
167.   Disabled List
Bisonic web gem.
2006-06-26 18:12:40
168.   Uncle Miltie
Great play by Kemp

Good job by Billingsley to throw strikes

2006-06-26 18:12:46
169.   herman
150. Kemp can jump 50 feet in the air with ease.
2006-06-26 18:12:47
170.   Marty
What a great play by Kemp. I thinkm he comes up this inning too. Be nice to get a HR as well.
2006-06-26 18:13:00
171.   Linkmeister
For us stuck with Gameday, what was Kemp's catch?
2006-06-26 18:13:43
172.   adg
When was the last time Lofton made a catch like that?
2006-06-26 18:14:12
173.   capdodger
155- The alley behind my apartment is a river now. Better break out the sandbags...
2006-06-26 18:15:40
174.   dsfan
Castillo's leadoff single in the first. On Gameday, it says it went to shortstop. Should Furcal have made the play? Would Izzy have made it? I didn't see it.
2006-06-26 18:17:01
175.   Marty
I haven't done this for awhile, but tonight's menu is grilled chicken with a mustard-based marinade, wild rice and grilled asparagus. Along with a nice Italian Barbera from a Paso Robles vinyard.
2006-06-26 18:17:06
176.   Andrew Shimmin
171- It was Kirby Puckettian. He jumped in to the baggie and pulled down what would have been at least a double.
2006-06-26 18:17:57
177.   Bluebleeder87
If Bills keeps us in the game will be o.k. IMO
2006-06-26 18:20:39
178.   Linkmeister
176 Thanks.
2006-06-26 18:21:39
179.   Andrew Shimmin
So, there are still living people who underestimate Kenny Lofton's arm. Wouldn't have guessed that. . .
2006-06-26 18:21:45
180.   Uncle Miltie
Punto is really scrappy. That play should pump up his teammates.

Lofton just showed off his cannon arm.

2006-06-26 18:21:56
181.   Bluebleeder87
Bills curve is either beeing read or... there reading it so well!!
2006-06-26 18:22:54
182.   Andrew Shimmin
Keeping the gameday followers in mind, Punto tried to take two on his single to center. Lofton nailed him (on a throw of about twenty feet, it looked like) at second.
2006-06-26 18:23:40
183.   thinkblue0
another izturis pop out.
2006-06-26 18:23:57
184.   Marty
Slappy McBanjo is quickly rounding into form.
2006-06-26 18:25:18
185.   thinkblue0
having a lineup with furcal lofton AND izturis is a recipe for disaster...keep furcal, maybe even lofton...but izturis is going to kill our lineup if he's here for the whole season.
2006-06-26 18:26:08
186.   Linkmeister
Small sample size and all that, but Izturis' BA has dropped fifty points in two at bats.
2006-06-26 18:28:17
187.   capdodger
These Fox Sports Net North commentators can't carry play-by-play in a basket. They've had a guest in the booth almost every inning. And when they're alone, they talk to each other about unrelated stuff.
2006-06-26 18:28:33
188.   Gen3Blue
Oh man, who was that last stikeout-that was truly embarassing. I by now have my sound off and happened to glance up. without names on uniforms I am helpless, but I think maybe it was 15.
2006-06-26 18:29:18
189.   herman
Trade Furcal. Keep Izturis. Same hitter. Way better fielder. Way Cheaper.
2006-06-26 18:30:28
190.   Gen3Blue
185 You must keep Furcal with his contract, I agree. But of the three you mention, Isturiz is a good defensive ballplayer, so wheres the logic.
2006-06-26 18:30:41
191.   thinkblue0
Trade Furcal. Keep Izturis. Same hitter. Way better fielder. Way Cheaper.

this is a joke, right? Same hitter? Let's see...Izturis has no power, no speed, and doesnt' draw walks...he basically lives off singles so when they aren't falling it's like having another pitcher in the lineup.

2006-06-26 18:32:15
192.   Linkmeister
I thought Billingsley was supposed to be a power pitcher, but he's only got one strikeout in this game. Was I wrong?
2006-06-26 18:32:21
193.   herman
191. Look at the numbers.
2006-06-26 18:32:32
194.   thinkblue0

right, but then it brings about the discourse of how important his defense is. I'd personally rather have a guy who could actually hit the ball yet make, say, 8 or 9 more errors on the season than a guy who makes no errors but can't hit water if he jumped out of a boat.

Izturis is basically Royce Clayton...yet somehow no one understands that.

2006-06-26 18:33:03
195.   Gen3Blue
NO. Furcal has no speed or power. They are relatively equal
2006-06-26 18:34:14
196.   Steve
Royce Fur-kel. It has a ring.
2006-06-26 18:34:23
197.   Gen3Blue
Ok so Royce Clayton is no hitter but are you saying he can at least field?
I can dig that.
2006-06-26 18:36:57
198.   herman
0-2 to a walk. WTF
2006-06-26 18:36:59
199.   regfairfield
193 Would these be the 300 at bats this year, or the several thousand he accumulated prior to this.

At this point last year, Furcal was worse (.226 /.281/347), and he still finished fine. It's way too soon to write him off.

2006-06-26 18:37:36
200.   Bluebleeder87
Bills can't be a minor league pitcher up here man! (he's only 21 though, be patient)
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2006-06-26 18:37:59
201.   herman
If I am paying a player 13 Mil he better put up 30 JACKS. Furcal just doesn't cut it.
2006-06-26 18:38:09
202.   Linkmeister
89 pitches, 46 strikes, 6 hits, 6 walks, one K.
2006-06-26 18:38:33
203.   overkill94
Wow, that was a HELL of a throw AND tag!
2006-06-26 18:38:54
204.   Bluebleeder87
that's right!! (Ethier's great throw)
2006-06-26 18:39:01
205.   Bob Timmermann
Andre gives up two runs, gets one back.
2006-06-26 18:39:09
206.   Marty
He kinda looked safe to me.
2006-06-26 18:39:14
207.   Uncle Miltie
Very good throw by Ethier, but a great tag by Martin.
2006-06-26 18:39:35
208.   capdodger
Hell of a throw by Ethier.
2006-06-26 18:39:36
209.   Disabled List
The 4th outfielder strikes again!
2006-06-26 18:39:39
210.   Bob Timmermann

What if it were Pedro Martinez?

2006-06-26 18:39:40
211.   regfairfield
201 Wait, the capital letters are throwing me. Are you just being sarcastic now? I really can't tell.
2006-06-26 18:40:08
212.   Linkmeister
Thrown out at the plate by Ethier? Wow, 2 outfield assists in one game for the Dodgers.
2006-06-26 18:41:03
213.   Marty
I hate Lofton.
2006-06-26 18:41:04
214.   Bluebleeder87

like Martin says close plays to the plate are instiked plays!

2006-06-26 18:41:11
215.   Gen3Blue
I think it is important that Billingsley is young and only has a few months at triple A. He is an excellant prospect.
2006-06-26 18:41:12
216.   Gen3Blue
I think it is important that Billingsley is young and only has a few months at triple A. He is an excellant prospect.
2006-06-26 18:41:32
217.   Uncle Miltie
206- he was barely out

K Loft is junk

2006-06-26 18:41:34
218.   capdodger
206 - Yeah... I'd like to see that replay of that.
2006-06-26 18:41:38
219.   Andrew Shimmin
206- I hope your chicken comes out dry.
2006-06-26 18:41:42
220.   herman
210. True
2006-06-26 18:42:06
221.   overkill94
Not that stupid "30 jacks" thing again. I thought all the trolls were weeded out?
2006-06-26 18:42:14
222.   ryu
Why is it that RFs are suposed to have stronger arms than LFs?
2006-06-26 18:42:29
223.   herman
213. Me too. Flyball outs. WTH
2006-06-26 18:43:33
224.   herman
221. Would you pay Ramon Martinez 10 MIL a year?
2006-06-26 18:45:12
225.   Gen3Blue
I could dig any guy who made 9 or 10 errors a season. At almost any infield position. Period.
2006-06-26 18:46:18
226.   808Bears
222 The RF has to make a throw across the field to get a runner going to third (see, Vlad, Ichiro). The LF is never going to have a play where he has to throw to get a runner going to first. Unless it's to double up a runner.
2006-06-26 18:47:20
227.   Bob Timmermann
In Omaha, in a 2-2 tie in the bottom of the eighth with 2 outs, North Carolina's runner on third tried to steal home. He would have been safe, but the batter struck out on the same pitch to end the inning.
2006-06-26 18:48:36
228.   thinkblue0
Look at the numbers.

alright, let's do that. Izturis' batting averages from 2001-2005: .269, .232., .251, .288, .257

his obp: .279, .253, .282, .330, .302

his steals: 8, 7, 10, 25, 8

And a total of 10 HR.

Let's look at the same with Furcal, his avgs: .275, .275, .292, .279, .284

OBP: .321, .323, .352, .344, .348

steals: 22. 27, 25, 29, 46

Total HR of 53.

Same hitter? Really? I understand izturis is better defensively, but is that really worth having such a bad hitter in the lineup? I mean, let's say Nomar wasn't playing first all that well...would you rather have JT Snow there? No. Izturis is really no different than a guy like Snow...can't hit, great defensive replacement/spot starter but that's it.

Yet somehow everyone thinks Izturis is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

2006-06-26 18:49:03
229.   Gen3Blue
Whoa, It's hard to believe that got thru untouched.
2006-06-26 18:49:10
230.   Uncle Miltie
Billingsley has been worse than Hootie and the Blowfish
2006-06-26 18:49:13
231.   overkill94
What happened to Bills' killer curve? I swear he's thrown 90% fastballs tonight.
2006-06-26 18:51:29
232.   scareduck
232 - maybe he couldn't spot it before the game?

Kind of bad if he didn't.

2006-06-26 18:52:12
233.   Marty
219 Impossible with that marinade :)
2006-06-26 18:52:19
234.   herman
228. Furcal is still not worth 13 MIL a year. You can't ever justify that number.
2006-06-26 18:53:42
235.   herman
No more walks.
2006-06-26 18:54:32
236.   herman
S@@@ s@@@
2006-06-26 18:54:53
237.   overkill94
234 That's why he's harder to trade, your argument is counter-intuitive.
2006-06-26 18:54:55
238.   thinkblue0

if that's the only response, then I'll assume I proved my point.

2006-06-26 18:55:11
239.   Uncle Miltie
Good move by Grits to take out Billingsley. He has no command.
2006-06-26 18:55:28
240.   Bluebleeder87
Kou against there left hander.... like it
2006-06-26 18:56:11
241.   Sam DC
Royce Clayton certainly not fielding up a storm this year. And we know from storms out here.


2006-06-26 18:56:21
242.   Gen3Blue
I'm willing to listen, but the post injury 13 mil. Furcal has 10 doubles and 2 HR in 300 at bats. I will even root for him to come back.
2006-06-26 18:56:57
243.   Bluebleeder87
if Kou is any were near the strike zone, look out
2006-06-26 18:57:13
244.   Linkmeister
For the season, Billingsley's walks to strikeouts ratio is 13:6. That's not gonna cut it for very long.
2006-06-26 18:57:31
245.   overkill94
Yikes, Bills' WHIP is ugly tonight, 14 baserunners (not to mention the guy he hit) in 5 2/3 IP. Doesn't look like he's ready yet, but when the alternatives are Seo and Odalis you give him some more leeway.
2006-06-26 18:58:12
246.   herman
Kuo Fax
2006-06-26 18:58:54
247.   herman
Kuo is gonna walk him.
2006-06-26 18:59:23
248.   herman
Even worse.
2006-06-26 18:59:25
249.   Sam DC
Strong outing for Randy Johnson tonight -- 7 innings, 4H, 0R, 0BB, 9K. Yankees bullpen trying to give it back however.

Atlanta is actually beating NY 2-0 over the final seven innings. Too bad for them NY scored five in the first two.

2006-06-26 18:59:37
250.   overkill94
Damn that Mauer is tough. Can anyone get him out? I'm not just talking about the Dodgers, I'm asking the whole league.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2006-06-26 19:00:12
251.   Steve
221 -- It's not the same thing. Thirty bombs was bad before. Now it's good.
2006-06-26 19:00:53
252.   thinkblue0
it would be nice if we could get one bullpen pitcher to go along with saito that can actually pitch.

just one. Is that too much to ask?

2006-06-26 19:01:11
253.   overkill94
Kuo provides relief in only the loosest of interpretations
2006-06-26 19:01:36
254.   herman
Way to go Kuo
2006-06-26 19:01:48
255.   overkill94
251 Ohhh, so we should have kept Choi then?
2006-06-26 19:01:50
256.   Uncle Miltie
Kuo just Baezed Billingsley
2006-06-26 19:02:03
257.   Bluebleeder87

I guess I was wrong

2006-06-26 19:02:11
258.   herman
When do we play PITT again?
2006-06-26 19:03:29
259.   Gen3Blue
Kuo-dependent. What will we do against their good pitchers? Maybe against all logic, our hitters will go wild. I can hope.
Help I think I'm going manic again.
2006-06-26 19:04:04
260.   Bluebleeder87

I wish we played them, often!

I'm not gonna give up on this game that easily though.


2006-06-26 19:05:29
261.   Sam DC
Awkward to lose to Silva when you've got to face Liriano and Santana the next two.

I druther win here.

2006-06-26 19:06:12
262.   Bob Timmermann
Throwing error on a routine grounder to second gives Oregon State a run in the bottom of the 8th and the Beavers lead 3-2 with 3 outs to get for the championship.
2006-06-26 19:11:23
263.   overkill94
Kuo has absolutely no idea where his pitches are going. Is Jesse Orosco still alive?
2006-06-26 19:13:29
264.   Steve
In some sense, it's kind of nice that we know our pitchers are killing themselves -- they can always start throwing strikes. Right? Right? [hollow] [echo] [crickets]
2006-06-26 19:14:20
265.   thinkingblue
Nice freaking move Grady, bring in the guy who couldn't hit the side of a red barn against the Major league leading hitter.
2006-06-26 19:18:50
266.   Bluebleeder87

Yes, but his arm probably isn't.

2006-06-26 19:19:04
267.   Jeromy
Oregon State! Oregon State!
2006-06-26 19:19:08
268.   overkill94
I don't mean to be crass, but can we at least score one more run so that Nathan gets the save for my fantasy team?
2006-06-26 19:19:28
269.   Linkmeister
Billingsley this season: 16 IP, 13 BB, 6 K, ERA 5.62.

I think he needs more time at Vegas.

2006-06-26 19:19:36
270.   Uncle Miltie
265- yea because he really has a lot of choices in the bullpen.

Baez- junk
Broxton- has been overworked
Beimel- mediocre, has pitched a lot
Seo- junk
Kuo- great stuff, no control
Perez- will probably pitch Wednesday

2006-06-26 19:22:30
271.   overkill94
How many liners have we had right at the outfielders tonight? It's still been a weak offensive output, but the luck hasn't been there.
2006-06-26 19:27:22
272.   StolenMonkey86
"Let's put Kuo in to face Mauer."
"Um, Grady, are you sure that's a good idea?"
"Of course it is. You see, Kuo's left-handed and so is their batter."
"Grady, he's leading all of baseball in batting average."
"You just don't understand playing the percentages. That's what smart manager's like me do."

New rule: From now on, Rick Honeycutt decides which pitchers go in, and Grady gets fined $100,000 every time he does it. The man is certifiably incompetent with a pitching staff.

2006-06-26 19:31:59
273.   Uncle Miltie
Your brain
Your brain on drugs
2006-06-26 19:32:11
274.   jujibee
Little observation on Billingsley:

He needs to develop a 3rd pitch. I don't think his slider is getting it least not like his fastball and curve, which look like plus pitches. He needs to go to Gagne school or Clemens school to develop a change or a splitter. I don't think he'll be a projectable ace unless he has a nice third pitch to go with the rest of his arsenol. On the bright side, he is still 21 and most likely would be a juniour in College if he went that route. He's got a lot of time before he hits his prime and has a bright outlook to become a future ace.

2006-06-26 19:33:54
275.   herman
I love our "Proven Closer." Ned better pray that Tiffany doesn't turn into a solid major league pitcher or I am going to )(&()&%.
2006-06-26 19:33:59
276.   D4P
Has "Baez getting rocked" become so blase that it doesn't even warrant discussion around here anymore?
2006-06-26 19:35:39
277.   Steve
The only difference between Baez and the real Cuban Missile Crisis is that the real Cuban Missile Crisis didn't end with nuclear winter.
2006-06-26 19:35:53
278.   herman
When do we play the PIRATES AGAIN?
2006-06-26 19:39:16
279.   Bob Timmermann
Herman is bucking for a yellow card soon.
2006-06-26 19:39:20
280.   Gen3Blue
This is embarrasing, but remember, our prospects were two years away last year, and are helpful but one year away this year.
If we stay the course, next year we should be an outfit like the Twins, with more money to use. My only reluctance is I'm not sure we have pitching enough, or know how to find it and develop it.
2006-06-26 19:41:36
281.   Gen3Blue
How cn Baez ERA only be 4.42?
2006-06-26 19:42:19
282.   Bluebleeder87

it's getting there

2006-06-26 19:42:38
283.   Bob Timmermann
What is particularly so embarrassing about losing this game more so than any other game?
2006-06-26 19:45:43
284.   Gen3Blue
Nothing. Only losing it 8 to 2.
Twins have built from within for years and there is nothing wrong with losing to them. But our pitching is beyond any defense.
2006-06-26 19:46:17
285.   scooplew
278 -- Actually, we play the Pirates again, Sept. 19-21, at Dodger Stadium. We benefit this season from an anomaly of the unbalanced schedule.
2006-06-26 19:46:47
286.   regfairfield
280 Does this mean we'll resign Sandy Alomar and start him ahead of Martin?
2006-06-26 19:51:02
287.   coachjpark
281 Baez has given up a measure of unearned runs and inherited runs. For awhile, he had that 0.00 ERA but blew a save on his throwing error which saved his E.R.A. Also, he was part of that San Diego fiasco in which he helped Lance Carter clear the bases.

But, yeah, Baez seems to have a knack for sucking really bad at times. I finally dropped him in my fantasy league after his Seattle blowup.

Oooh, Simpson's episode where Homer designs his ultimate car guest starring Danny Devito.

2006-06-26 19:51:56
288.   Gen3Blue
We could try pitching Sandy Alomar. I have been a Dodger fan for almost 50 years, and our pitching has almost always been distinguished. You could put all the ML pitchers in a hat and draw 11, and rarely would you come up with worse than we have.
Perhaps starters aside. But I really wonder.
2006-06-26 20:00:17
289.   Jon Weisman
Herman - Can I ask you to stop the fake cursing also, please? When I know what it is, I know what it is, if you get my drift.

You're not the only person who gets upset, but you'll notice that everyone else is able to hold back.


2006-06-26 20:01:22
290.   scooplew
Pittsburgh plays us 10 times this season, plays the Giants 7 times, and plays the Diamondbacks, Rockies and Padres 6 times each.
2006-06-26 20:01:25
291.   regfairfield
Does the fact we have the second best starter ERA in baseball blow anyone elses mind? (Bear in mind this comes from, where they sometimes just randomly generate numbers).
2006-06-26 20:06:33
292.   Steve
Real curses, like "Baez," are allowed in context.
2006-06-26 20:08:07
293.   CanuckDodger
On another Dodger board, a Twins' fan is reporting that there is word going around local (i.e., Minn-St.Paul) media circles that the Twins and Dodgers are talking about a trade that would send Aybar to the Twins and RHP Scott Baker to the Dodgers. That actually sounds like a very realistic trade, especially given that we know the Dodgers aren't that high on Aybar.
2006-06-26 20:08:56
294.   Gen3Blue
It doesn't surprise me as much as it should, because our starters only go about 5 innings and then surrender to worse than random luck.
2006-06-26 20:10:57
295.   overkill94
Oh man I would crap my pants if we were to pull off that trade.

The Twins are one of the few ML teams with young pitching to spare and while Baker's stats didn't look too hot while he was up with the Twins earlier he has very good stuff and could settle in as a quality #3 pitcher.

2006-06-26 20:14:06
296.   D4P
Semi-interesting tidbit from

Monday's game in the Metrodome is the first on artificial turf for the Dodgers since Aug. 24-26, 2004, in Montreal.

2006-06-26 20:14:40
297.   ToyCannon
Tomorrow we will see what a real pitching prospect looks like who isn't afraid or unable to throw strikes.
By the time we get home against the Diamondbacks we will have lost 5 of 6 games and will probably still be in 1st place. What a pathetic division.
2006-06-26 20:16:07
298.   Gen3Blue
AS I said earlier, Aybar and even Young are players who would definitely play on a small market team. Does this Baker have anything. Realistically.
2006-06-26 20:16:11
299.   ToyCannon
I would welcome that trade. As Canuck said that would be a nice deal for both teams. We should be lucky that Baker started off slow if we could nab him for Aybar.
2006-06-26 20:18:13
300.   Uncle Miltie
I suck at Photoshop, but I made something very useful. I am saving myself and others a lot of time from having to type the same thing every time he comes in.

Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2006-06-26 20:18:26
301.   JoeyP
Through the first 3 starts, Billingsley looks no where close to being the #1 pitching prospect in baseball.

4 swing and misses tonite on 103 pitches.

All together 8 swing and misses on 298 big league pitches thrown. The bottomline is the guy isnt missing enough bats. If his stuff was as good as BA says it is, he'd be getting guys to actually swing and miss the ball.

He'll improve hopefully, but he's massively overhyped at this stage of his career. If you're the #1 pitching prospect in baseball, you should be able to handle the Padres, Mariners, and Twins. His control will get better I think, but the key is his overall stuff. He's very hittable.

2006-06-26 20:22:07
302.   regfairfield
293 He looks like a younger Jae Seo. I know I shouldn't judge things based on one person, but I really don't want another pitcher whose only skill is that he doesn't walk people with a terrible ground ball to flyball ratio.

At least Baker isn't coming from a very home run forgiving park.

2006-06-26 20:25:08
303.   Gen3Blue
TC-- wanted to tell you while I could. Sometimes I don't read your Minor L summaries because on the E coast one of my pleasures is going through them the next morning.-but they are good. Although they are falling apart, the last few years I have seen our prospects often in pairs. The acrobats, Hu and Abrue. the Italian surname outfielders, Ruffiano and Raqgleati(sp?),the athletic outfielders, Hoffman and X Paul, the interchangeale infielders, Denker and Dewitt. Get this?
2006-06-26 20:27:34
304.   Steve
That trade would be very acceptable.
2006-06-26 20:29:30
305.   das411
230 - OucH! Even those Burger King commercials that Hootie did?

263 - I think Mulholland is available these days...

anybody ready for more Journey yet?

2006-06-26 20:30:01
306.   Andrew Shimmin
302- Isn't Rochester .75 HR? So, about the same as PetCo, right?

Hmm, so you were kidding were you? Well, two can play at that game, regFOULfield. Hah! Because your name is regfairfield, you know. . . get it?

2006-06-26 20:31:56
307.   JoeyP
By the time we get home against the Diamondbacks we will have lost 5 of 6 games

Why are you assuming the Dodgers wont be able to beat the Angels? The Angels are a bad team.

2006-06-26 20:34:20
308.   JoeyP
Plus Penny/Lowe are pitching 2/3 against the Halos. I think the worst they'll do on this trip is 3-3.
2006-06-26 20:40:35
309.   thinkingblue
As long as we don't trade for Mark Hendrickson.
2006-06-26 20:40:53
310.   CanuckDodger
301 -- Prospect status is determined by potential, and that potential is judged by the professionals whose jobs depend on accurately estimating the futures of minor league players. If polish and major league readiness determined prospect status, every minor leaguer 24 or 25 years old would be rated higher than guys Billingsley's age.

And you can't judge a kid pitcher's stuff by swings and misses in his first few games. I recently watched a video recording of Rich Harden's second MLB game, in July 2003 against the Angels. The Angels didn't swing and miss on a single fastball the entire game. They swung and missed about four times on a 100 pitches, all breaking pitches. Getting swings and misses on fastballs is about both velocity and location, and Billingsley has still got to iron out some control isues in the majors before he starts working on finer points of command within the strike zone. It's an adjustment process at this level.

2006-06-26 20:42:32
311.   Gagne55
The Dodgers haven't won in an AL ballpark since 2004. They've been swept by KC, CWS, LAA, OAK, and soon MIN.
2006-06-26 20:53:45
312.   regfairfield
306 For some reason I didn't think to look up his minor league park factors, thanks.
2006-06-26 20:57:28
313.   Sam DC
For anyone interested (OK, Bob), Chris at Cap Punishment has a nice post up responding to some of Frank Robinson's recent comments about Montreal baseball fans: "Defending Montreal"
2006-06-26 21:02:37
314.   regfairfield
I really need to stop looking at the equivelant section of PECOTA. His strikeout rate looks fine, but his extreme flyball tendencies are very, very scary.
2006-06-26 21:02:42
315.   StolenMonkey86
Numbers on Baker:

IP: 53.2 HR: 5 H/9: 8.05 K/9: 5.37 BB/9: 2.35 GO/AO: 0.65 ERA: 3.35

IP:49 HR:10 H/9:12.12 K/9: 7.53 BB/9: 1.47 GO/AO: 0.38 H: 66 ERA: 6.06

Bases empty: 34 H, 6 BB, 24 K, 4 HR, 118 PA
Runner on 1st: 17 H, 1 BB, 7 K, 4 HR, 39 PA

His best splits:
Bases loaded: 1 AO
Runner 1st,2nd: 1 H, 12 PA, 2 GO, 7 AO

DOB: 9.19.1981

Notes: Numbers suggest he has good control. More effective in April when throwing fewer strikes. Should be 3-4, except the Twins only scored 1 run against the Royals in a game in which he went 7 and only allowed 7 hits and 3 runs. Has pitched in the 5th inning in each start.

His May was a nightmare, which would make me think he's a gamble. If he doesn't pitch like that, though, he'd be a great addition to the rotation (Billingsley doesn't look like he's comfortable in the majors quite yet).

2006-06-26 21:04:12
316.   JoeyP
310. Marlins rookie Josh Johnson got 12 swinging strikes tonite. He walked 1. Liriano in his last start against the Astros got 12 swinging strikes. He walked 2.

I think swinging strikes and walks are two important indicators as to the talent of the pitcher. So far, Billingsley doesnt look all that talented. Just 3 starts/300 pitches so far though.

However, I understand how scouts will rank players based on potential. But for them to rank someone based on potential, they have to have seen something in the performance that makes them think they'll develop. Mainly great "stuff". If a pitcher has great "stuff', they'll get mlb hitters to swing and miss. So far, I havent seen those glimmers of promise from Billingsley. I'm assuming the scouts have at some point, but right now its not apparent.

2006-06-26 21:09:10
317.   Steve
316 -- The problem for some of us, I think, is that we don't understand what else one would rank players on. I mean, isn't it really not that there's no such thing as stuff, but that there are major league teams who think Russ Ortiz (or Brett Tomko, for that matter) have stuff? In other words, it's not the existence of it that's in question, but the qualifications of those judging it (including the biases that obviously exist). No?
2006-06-26 21:10:11
318.   Steve
Can everybody agree that Jose Mesa does not have stuff?
2006-06-26 21:10:47
319.   JoeyP
Scott Baker:

IP:49 HR:10 He's given up 10HRs in only 49ip?

GO/AO: 0.65
GO/AO: 0.38

This helps explain it.

K/9: 7.53
BB/9: 1.47

This is good.

Hmmmm....An extreme fly ball pitcher, that gives up lots of HRs, but does have a pretty good K/BB rate? Thats a tough one. I might trade a B-level prospect for him. There's no way I'd trade Aybar though. And I wouldnt count on Baker to be part of any type of rotation.

He looks like a Jae Seo but younger and better K rate. Thats not worth Aybar IMO.

2006-06-26 21:11:51
320.   JoeyP
317. I hate scouts. So I'm biased too.
2006-06-26 21:16:48
321.   Steve
Well, I hate scouts too. If hating scouts is wrong, I don't want to be right. But some guys have great fastballs and some guys have great sliders, and some guys don't. Just because a certain segment of the population pretends that they know how to tell the difference doesn't mean the difference doesn't exist. Or so it seems to me.
2006-06-26 21:21:24
322.   Andrew Shimmin
He gave up 10 HR this year, in 49IP, but has a career minor league HR/9 of .63. His HR/9 in the bigs, last year, was .84. Even with a HR suppressing AAA park, that's still pretty good.
2006-06-26 21:27:26
323.   regfairfield
Like I said, I really need to not read the equivalent part of PECOTA. Since Aybar doesn't seem to have a spot on the team anymore, I'll gladly ship him for Baker, knowing that he could get shredded when he comes to L.A.
2006-06-26 21:28:21
324.   Jon Weisman
While you guys are solving this, I'm watching a Benson rerun. Probably for the first time in 20-25 years.

Benson has a lot of flaws, but it's also got a little more meat than I remembered, all things considered. The biggest problem, I've decided, is the music.

That Caroline McWilliams was all right.

2006-06-26 21:30:18
325.   CanuckDodger
316 -- And when Billingsley and Josh Johnson were pitching in the same Double A league last year, what were their respective numbers like? Billingsley was more dominant by every measure except home runs surrendered. Better walk rate, better hits surrendered rate, MUCH better K rate, better ERA. And yet Johnson's major league career got off to a much smoother start. Why is that? My position on the issue is that the start of the MLB career is pretty much meaningless. Some guys are lucky that way, some aren't. How do you reconcile the divergent Double A and major league records? If you want to maintain that the start to the major league career is meaningful, I see no other choice for you but to say outright that minor league stats (where Billingsley trumps Johnson big time) are meaningless, and I know you are not going to want to take that position.

And about Liriano, 1) nobody had Billingsley rated above him in the off-season, and 2) Liriano made his MLB debut last year, and finished the year with an ERA in the mid-5.00 range, where Billingsley's ERA is now. Which reinforces my position that how one's MLB career starts is irrelevent to the question of what will happen in future.

2006-06-26 21:31:58
326.   Andrew Shimmin
Baker's minor league park factors plus age vs. HR allowed:

AAA Rochester .75 (22/23/24)
19HR 124IP

AA New Britain 1.11 (22)
2HR 70.3IP

A+ Fort Meyers .90 (22)
1HR 45IP

A Quad City .88 (21)
4HR 50.7IP

He gave up 13HRs over 260.7IP at Oklahoma State. So, despite a heavy flyball tendancy, he doesn't give up many HRs.

2006-06-26 21:32:17
327.   D4P
I'm watching a Benson rerun. Probably for the first time in 20-25 years.

You were watching Benson reruns 20-25 years ago...?

2006-06-26 21:34:02
328.   Andrew Shimmin
224 IP at Rochester. Sorry; I went back to update for this years numbers, and forgot to carry the one.
2006-06-26 21:34:34
329.   Steve
Jon and his priorities.
2006-06-26 21:38:00
330.   Steve
I thought tom Glavine was ridiculous his first year up.
2006-06-26 21:38:52
331.   Bob Timmermann
I'm watching "Deadwood". I won't repeat any lines.
2006-06-26 21:39:27
332.   Jon Weisman
I'm sure I saw one. When you remove 25 years of television history and any access to channels beyond UHF, your options are much more limited. And I watched Benson as a kid, because I liked Soap so much.
2006-06-26 21:40:20
333.   Jon Weisman
"Benson" - Better than "Becker!"
2006-06-26 21:41:34
334.   LAT
Actually Soap was tons funnier than Benson but there was alot more cast support in Soap. Robert Guillaume and a little Rene Auberjonois was all Benson had. The show jumped the shark when Benson became the Governers aide.

Nick has also been showing a lot of Night Court. Outside of watching Markie Post (who seems to have completly disappeared) the show was not as good as I had remembered although I still liked Bull.

2006-06-26 21:44:49
335.   Bob Timmermann
Markie Post appeared on "Scrubs" this year as Sarah Chalke's mother.

She is 55 you know. That tends to limit your job openings in Hollywood.

2006-06-26 21:45:31
336.   Jon Weisman
334 - It should be clear that

Soap: Benson :: Gagne:Baez

I'm amazed by how much mediocre television the Nick channels show.

2006-06-26 21:47:18
337.   D4P
And her father was played by that one guy.

Catch any "Webster" reruns lately?

2006-06-26 21:47:25
338.   Steve
Tvland! Ghhhhhhhaarr!
2006-06-26 21:48:23
339.   Jon Weisman
Bob, Caroline McWilliams is 61. She's got some Hamelesque credits, though not as many lead roles.
2006-06-26 21:51:41
340.   Steve
If someone here hadn't pointed out that Kevin Malone was raising money for some college nobodys heard of, I would have sworn he became tvland's programmer.
2006-06-26 21:52:57
341.   LAT
Soap: Benson :: Gagne:Baez

Soap ranks as one of the top ten sitcoms of all time.

Markie Post cannot be 55!!! That would mean I am getting older and that can't be happening.

2006-06-26 21:54:12
342.   Jon Weisman
340 - LOL
2006-06-26 21:54:25
343.   Andrew Shimmin
I've reconsidered my defense of Becker, if anybody cares. It was based on seeing three or four episodes. Now that I've seen eight, I'm fully convinced that the show isn't any good. I only hope I didn't lead others in to fruitless temptation. The concept, though, I'm prepared to defend; if they'd just made Becker completely Beckery, instead of cheating, and letting him have his sitcommy changes of heart. . .No, never mind. I'm not defending it on any level. I have rejoined the anti-Becker fold.
2006-06-26 21:55:03
344.   Bob Timmermann
I've heard of The Master's College. It was LA Baptist in my day. But with its new name, every graduate gets a green jacket instead of a diploma.
2006-06-26 21:59:02
345.   LAT
If Kevein Malone were a TV progrmaer his line-up would be:

Big Valley
Lone Ranger
Have Gun Will Travel and of course
Wild Wild West.

Speaking of fetching actresses. Linda Evens on Big valley was really something.

2006-06-26 22:00:31
346.   LAT
And of course he would badly over pay for all of them
2006-06-26 22:00:41
347.   Jon Weisman
345 - Yes. Ingenueriffic.

A G.W. Bailey sighting on Benson!

2006-06-26 22:00:45
348.   D4P
And they get to come back every year to take classes if they want to.
2006-06-26 22:03:15
349.   gcrl
not much to report from the expedition to the metrodome, other than derek lowe has a 940 tee time tomorrow morning.

before the game, torii hunter was running his sprints and matt kemp was chasing an errant throw, and the two outfielders started to converge. obviously, hunter was explaining to kemp how to make catches against the baggy.

sweet lou johnson, willie davis, tony oliva, and harmon killebrew threw out the first pitch(es) tonight. harmon also had a birthday cake.

there were a fair amount of dodger fans in attendance - i don't know if there are a lot of transplants here or if they made the road trip, although i wouldn't put visiting the metrodome high on my list of things to do.

i saw a comment earlier that the twins broadcasters (blyleven and dick bremer) try not to be homers. i would disagree - they are very much homers, just not quite as bad as chip carey or the white sox announcers.

2006-06-26 22:05:14
350.   thinkingblue
Imagine if every starter was given only 3 starts.
Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2006-06-26 22:08:25
351.   thinkingblue
What would we have done with Greg Maddux?
2006-06-26 22:15:12
352.   Andrew Shimmin
I don't think anybody's ready to dump Billingsly. All the anti-Bills arguments seem to amount to: he's not ready. At least, that's how I've been reading JoeyP. In that, he may be right. If the Dodgers had four decent starters, instead of two, Billingsly probably wouldn't have been promoted this year. At least not this early.
2006-06-26 22:15:31
353.   Steve
And every year the campus grows 200 yards.

Nice work on 345, LAT.

2006-06-26 22:17:52
354.   D4P
And the college is ed (as opposed to co-ed).
2006-06-26 22:23:27
355.   thinkingblue
You know, I think Billingsley just needs to trust his stuff more, and challenge hitters instead of trying to hit every corner.
2006-06-26 22:57:20
356.   ToyCannon
Minor League Update:
Tacoma beats us 6-1. Lundberg has made 3 starts since being promoted from AA and has lost all 3 starts. He pitched okay tonight giving up only 1 earned run. In his 2 previous starts he had been hammered. Osoria continues to pitch like his major league counterparts giving up 3 runs in one inning with 2 walks and no K's. Somebody better teach these kids to throw strikes. JtD hits his 8th HR and that was the offensive highlight.

Lose 3-2 with Totten taking the loss. Abreu picks up 3 hits and Hu and Greenberg collect 2 each. Brian Akin was promoted from VB to Jacksonville on 6/16 after being named to the Florida State League all-star team while with Vero Beach. He struck out 3 in 2 innings with 1 walk giving up zero runs.

They win 6-1 and all my favorite prospects had solid games. Xavier Paul banged out 3 hits including a double and triple. DeWitt hit another home run giving him 9 for the year and 5 in his last 32 at bats. He is on KempFire. Last but not least Carlos Santana had 2 doubles. Former Bruin Kyle Wilson picked up the win by spinning a 2 hitter over 6 innings. Jumbo Diaz gathered the save.
Cole Bruce was name to the all-star team but I have no idea why given his pedestrian numbers.

Got pounded 10-3 with Wade taking the brunt of the damage, giving up 9 runs in 3 innings. Up until this game he had been having a nice season with a 3.73 ERA and 74 K's in 70 innings with only EIGHT walks. He made the all-star team along with Marlon Arias, lhp; Russ Mitchell, 3b; Drew Locke, of. Curious that Locke made the all-star team and Pedroza didn't.

Josh Wall the 2nd round pick from 2005, pitched 6 scoreless innings. VanSlyke is hitting less then a 1.50.

2006-06-26 22:58:32
357.   natepurcell
I didn't bother reading the comments because I think I know what they all say.

about 200 posts saying billingsley sucks/trade billingsley/billingsley is a bust/billingsley should be in the minors/blahblah.

was that the gist of it?

2006-06-26 23:00:22
358.   natepurcell
All the anti-Bills arguments seem to amount to: he's not ready. At least, that's how I've been reading JoeyP.

Billingsley's a prep draftee. He's never going to be ready.

2006-06-26 23:01:23
359.   JoeyP
I'm not giving up on Billingsley. I think he should stay in the Dodgers' rotation simply bc he's a better option both now and developing for the future than the other guys on the team. My disagreement is with those that seem to imply he's a #1 type of starter and expect him to be that. I dont see it yet.

Maybe I'm wrong, but a high percentage of Aces, when they debut, are already good pitchers. Most arent great from the debut point, but are good. Billingsley hasnt been good, but its only been 300 pitches.

2006-06-26 23:02:45
360.   natepurcell
Maybe I'm wrong, but a high percentage of Aces, when they debut, are already good pitchers

that is such a fallacy right there.

2006-06-26 23:03:40
361.   JoeyP
You know, I think Billingsley just needs to trust his stuff more, and challenge hitters instead of trying to hit every corner

I think he would challenge hitters more, if he was confident he could get some swing and misses. But when you only get 4 swing and misses out of 198 pitches coming into a start, you're gonna be a little cautious and nibble more the next time out. Thats human nature.

2006-06-26 23:04:07
362.   dzzrtRatt
The thing I would focus on after an ugly game like tonight's is that the Dodgers are over .500 and in first place with a team full of rookies. If I were the Mets or Blue Jays and had spent all that money to "win now" and this was all I got for it, I'd be ripping my eyes out. In LA we've got half veterans, almost all them having good to great seasons, and half rookies, including some bright prospects finally getting some experience and doing pretty well. A .500 record for a team like that seems like a hopeful sign.

The growing pains of this team's prospects are nowhere near as painful as watching "Growing Pains" reruns.

2006-06-26 23:04:32
363.   sanchez101
Judging Billingsley after 3 starts, especially when you're obviously ignoring his dozens of minor league starts, is laughably ridiculas. He couldnt throw strikes tonite, it was difficult for me to watch, but you cant ignore his hundreds of minor league innings and now question his stuff.
2006-06-26 23:08:30
364.   natepurcell
here are a couple of pitchers off the top of my head that have sucked and turned around to have Ace like careers.

greg maddux
tom glavine
john smoltz
randy johnson
ben sheets

those are just off the top of my head. There are tons more.

2006-06-26 23:09:50
365.   Xeifrank
(Rhetorical question)
How did we manage to lose so badly to one of the worst pitchers in all of baseball!!!?
(/Rhetorical question)
vr, Xei
2006-06-26 23:11:38
366.   dzzrtRatt
The Detroit Tigers are pretty much a case study of pitchers who have suffered through long, long dreadful stretches early in their careers, and then turned it around.
2006-06-26 23:12:30
367.   natepurcell
dewitt in his last 37ABs

351/500/865 6hr 9bb 6k

Seriously, screw that vero beach coach.

2006-06-26 23:12:52
368.   Steve
IP -86.0
H - 102
R - 64
ER - 62
HR - 11
BB - 54
K - 64
ERA - 6.49
WHIP - 1.81
BAA - .302

I'd kill for those numbers.

Oh, I mean, I'd kill the guy with those numbers.

And that little boy grew up to be...?

2006-06-26 23:13:19
369.   natepurcell

Jeremy Bonderman is another one. Thanks for bringing up the tigers.

Actually, I would compare Billingsley to Bonderman the most.

2006-06-26 23:14:25
370.   natepurcell
from a site on Jon's sidebar...

Rumor in St. Paul media circles is that the Twins might be interested in flipping Scott Baker to the Dodgers for talented third baseman prospect Willie Abyar. The Dogers believe Baker, 24, can be a productive third or fourth starter for the next few years, and the Twins see the switch-hitting Abyar as a third baseman that can give them what they need at the hot corner for years to come, while their nucleus grows into its prime. It almost makes too much sense for a Twins midseason move, though.

Great trade for both teams IMO.

2006-06-26 23:15:06
371.   sanchez101
364. there's a certain Dodger lefthander that struggled for half a decade before figuring things out. Orel Hershiser didnt figure things out until he was 25-26 years old. Lets just wait until Billingsley has a significant number or innings until we judge his performance, unless I suppose, someone here is a scout.
2006-06-26 23:15:27
372.   natepurcell
Actually it's not on Jon's sidebar my bad. But still, its on a mlb trade rumors site so I doubt it has any substance. But I wish it did because that is a smart deal for both teams.
2006-06-26 23:16:32
373.   dzzrtRatt
The point of the comparison to the Tigers' young pitchers is, they weren't just bad, they were horrible at times. Billingsley isn't bad. He might become bad, for awhile. We'll have to wait through it with him.
2006-06-26 23:18:49
374.   sanchez101
370. I would endorse that trade; Baker has a 7.5 K/9 and a 1.5 bb/9, his high ERA probably has more to do with his .364 BABIP than anything.
2006-06-26 23:19:40
375.   Steve
370 -- somebody from the Minnesota area posted this earlier (It's not all Bills-bashing Nate!) and said it was in Minn. "local media." They may have gotten it from the website though, so we may have gone full circle.

Nobody wants to play name that AAAA pitcher?

2006-06-26 23:19:50
376.   Andrew Shimmin
Sheets was 23, and Johnson was 24 when they broke. The rest on that list were 20 or 21.

I don't know what it means to say that a prep draftee won't ever be ready. Are you saying that no pitcher can be made ready (all the way ready, maybe?) in the minors?

2006-06-26 23:22:02
377.   natepurcell

I was being facetious because Oldbear has a thing against prep draftees.

2006-06-26 23:22:42
378.   Andrew Shimmin
376 was meant to be directed at 364. Oops.
2006-06-26 23:23:21
379.   Andrew Shimmin
Ah. My sarcasm detector is out of whack tonight.
2006-06-26 23:24:18
380.   natepurcell

Okay cool. I honestly think that is a trade that makes sooo much sense for both teams that it wont happen because GMs are not that smart.

Aybar IMO has no long term future with us. Laroche is going to play 3b, Kent is going to play 2b until he dies and when he dies, Dewitt is going to take over. I guess we could use Aybar as the super utility person but I dont think that is fair to Aybar and to us because Scott Baker, a pitcher who I think can become a solid #3 type pitcher is more valuable then a utility player, no matter how many walks he can work.

2006-06-26 23:25:18
381.   Steve
371 -- Kaz Ishii?
2006-06-26 23:26:43
382.   Uncle Miltie
Going to repost the Baez picture that I'm proud of making even though I suck at using photoshop 

370- I'm a big Wilber fan but I'd do that trade. I'm guessing that Ned doesn't like Aybar and Baker is a groundball pitcher who doesn't give up a lot of homeruns (excluding this year). Maybe he could be another Brad Radke.

2006-06-26 23:30:43
383.   Steve
382 -- You got me. 368 is Danys Baez. And look what he's become...
2006-06-26 23:32:35
384.   regfairfield
366 The Tigers pitchers except for Bonderman all have really bad perhiprials. It's the defense that's keeping them alive.
2006-06-26 23:37:22
385.   natepurcell
I want this Baker deal to happen like... tomorrow so he can pitch for Tomko on Wednesday.
2006-06-26 23:37:26
386.   Andrew Shimmin
If Aybar goes, Izzy stays at 3B, yes? Platooning with Saenz. Mueller's done and LaRoche is hurt. I'd still be happy with it, but not without reservation.
2006-06-26 23:39:43
387.   natepurcell

Laroche has started hitting off a tee and throwing already so we could see him in a month or two if everything checks out okay.

2006-06-26 23:40:12
388.   Steve
I thought Tomko hurt himself hurling 85 mph Tomkoballs at the Pirates
2006-06-26 23:41:57
389.   natepurcell

I think he did. So Oh Dallas is pitching.

Oh Dallas or Baker.... pretty easy choice.

2006-06-26 23:50:34
390.   Andrew Shimmin
What does the Dodger injury conversion chart say about a high profile AAA prospect with a slightly torn labrum? Anybody have it handy?
2006-06-26 23:54:46
391.   JoeyP
364. Ben Sheets hasnt had an Ace like career IMO.

Hudson (3.23), Willis (3.30), Zito (2.72), Mulder (5.44), Beckett (3.85), Sabathia (4.39), Halladay (3.92), Peavy (4.42), Harden (4.46), Prior (3.32), Oswalt (2.73), Burnett (4.15), Zambrano (3.66), Kazmir (5.67), Penny (4.81), Santana (6.00), Liriano (3.10)...

I just picked out 17 Ace Caliber pitchers from the last 6-7 years and the corresponding ERA for them after their initial exposure to starting as a Big Leaguer (around 15 starts, if a guy only came up for less than 5 starts, then pitched the following season, i tried to combine them and estimate an ERA over the course of their first 20 starts in the bigs)

There's 17 ace caliber pitchers. 14 of them were league average or better their rookie seasons (I included Penny but he may be on the cusp). Santana struggled, didnt really have any impressive peripherals. Mulder same thing. Kazmir struggled, but had excellent K/9 in 2004. All the rest of them threw at least league average ball. None of them had ERA's over 5.00 their rookie seasons.

If Billingsley is going to develop into an ace level pitcher, he should be able to throw league average innings right now IMO, if his career follows the average pitching ace. If he's doesnt, he should at least have an outstanding peripheral to hold onto. So far, nothing yet. But its still early.

2006-06-26 23:59:31
392.   StolenMonkey86
381 - Ishii went back to Japan. Sanchez101 is referring to Sandy Koufax.

386 - Saenz is necessary as a DH in interleague play and as a pinch hitter in the late innings. I think that our thirdstop will do just fine, and he'll help take pressure off Furcal, until he wins a gold glove at third.

Here's why I think we need to give Izturis' running game a chance. It's from CBS Sportsline's fantasy analysis of why Jason Bay isn't stealing many bases this year.

"We've stolen some bases, not a lot. But I don't believe in the running game, where you're trying to prove something to somebody and then run the risk of running yourself out of innings," Bucs manager Jim Tracy said.

Izturis stole 7 of 8 the same year teammate Jose Cruz Jr had a 30-30 year (go figure with Cruz). Granted Izturis does need to get on base to steal, but I think he can manage.

2006-06-27 00:00:40
393.   JoeyP
I'm guessing that Ned doesn't like Aybar and Baker is a groundball pitcher who doesn't give up a lot of homeruns (excluding this year).

Baker is a fly ball pitcher that somehow didnt give up many HRs in the minor leagues. Sort of the opposite of Derek Lowe. This year, he's giving up lots of bombs bc his GB/FB ratio has caught up to him probably. His ERA is high not because of his .364 BABIP, but rather his 10HRS in 49IP. And his Fly ball tendencies.

2006-06-27 00:01:08
394.   natepurcell
What does the Dodger injury conversion chart say about a high profile AAA prospect with a slightly torn labrum? Anybody have it handy?

I don't know about the Dodgers but the A's Eric Chavez has been playing with a slightly torn labrum his whole career and he has turned out fine.

2006-06-27 00:01:18
395.   Steve
390 -- It just cries.

Jim Tracy tells a lot of lies. That is, even for him, a very large whopper.

2006-06-27 00:11:10
396.   Eric L
395 Tracy should teach CYA classes to corporate types.

Past midnight theory (and thus my brain isn't working correctly)...

Tracy and Lasorda are nearly equals on the blowhard front. Lasorda was(is) better at self-promotion, but they are both very full of it.

2006-06-27 00:12:02
397.   Andrew Shimmin
393- It hasn't caught up with him in AAA, this year. After 35IP, he's only given up 1.
2006-06-27 00:14:22
398.   natepurcell
Following Monday night's game, an 8-2 loss to the Minnesota Twins in front of 22,528 at the Metrodome, the Dodgers appeared close to acquiring Tampa Bay left-hander Mark Hendrickson. The deal also is believed to involve a swap of catchers, with Dioner Navarro going to the Devil Rays for Toby Hall.

from tony jackson...

2006-06-27 00:15:53
399.   StolenMonkey86
According to the LA Times, Billingsley's problem was thinking that he was Jae Seo.

"I'm more of a power pitcher who just pounds the zone," Billingsley said. "I found myself just trying to pick on the corners. It just gets me into trouble."

Apparently he got his velocity back up to 98 mph. That will dominate. I think he'll get his bearings back for the Angels, because they're bad.

2006-06-27 00:16:38
400.   natepurcell

the article isn't clear on who along with Navarro would be going to TB.

Show/Hide Comments 401-450
2006-06-27 00:17:35
401.   natepurcell

Henson got it wrong, I am rewatching the game right now on mlbtv and Hunter grounded into a DP on an 86 mph slider NOT a 98 mph fastball. But he has gotten it up to 96 so far.

2006-06-27 00:20:42
402.   Andrew Shimmin
That's still good news. I didn't see a radar gun on the KCAL broadcast. He was slow in his last outing, IIRC.
2006-06-27 00:21:35
403.   natepurcell
Navarro for Hendrickson is overpaying.
2006-06-27 00:23:47
404.   regfairfield
400 I've never prayed harder that something was just a stupid rumor.
2006-06-27 00:24:32
405.   JoeyP
Colletti is going to get Seo'ed in this deal. Once again caught looking at the ERA, and not the peripherals.

Hendrickson has a good ERA (3.81), but his K/9, bb/9, Hr/9 and K/bb are all mediocre. He's probably in reality a 4.5-5.00 ERA. Basically, not a difference making pitcher. To give up Navarro for him is a risk with only downside should Martin get hurt the way I see it.

But he should help the Dodgers rec league basketball team. Thats the best thing I can say for this proposed deal.

2006-06-27 00:29:29
406.   Andrew Shimmin
Hendrickson and Hall. What's the point of that? If he wants a backup catcher and a crappy pitcher, Navarro and Houlton are in Vegas. For free.
2006-06-27 00:31:00
407.   Steve
So here we are on the cusp. Aybar for Scott Baker is a decent trade. Navarro and God knows what else for Brian Meadows II and a superfluous catcher is absurd. I guess we find out what Colletti is really made of. Remember, the night before the Bradley trade, it was Bradley for Kirk Saarloos.

Of course, this is the man who pulled down his own pants on the Baez trade.

2006-06-27 00:33:22
408.   JoeyP
I can now see why Tampa Bay is such a willing trade partner.
2006-06-27 00:35:46
409.   Steve
Wait a minute.

Hall is eligible for free agency after the season.

But isn't Baez our draft pick guy? I'm so confused. Why do we insist on trading with Tampa Bay? Ned does realize that Tampa Bay is crappy for a reason, right? I mean, we're crappy for a reason too, but now it's mostly because we just traded all of our prospects for the 2005 Tampa Bay Devil Rays.

Wow, I just looked at this Hendrickson guy's numbers. He is a mountain of suck-i-tude. On the good side, his name is easier to say than Ishii.

2006-06-27 00:36:41
410.   natepurcell
Maybe COlletti's plan is to corner the market on compensation draft picks.
2006-06-27 00:38:04
411.   Steve
I thought we could only get one type A. Come on, Nate. Save this, because it sounds like it is happening, and we are scared. Our GM hates us. He's a Giants fan. I don't know why we expected different.
2006-06-27 00:38:21
412.   Eric L
410 It would certainly go against one of the ideals of his former boss...
2006-06-27 00:39:51
413.   natepurcell

There isnt a limit of type A free agents per team. There are a limit of type A free agents though. Toby Hall might be a type A only because hes a catcher. He is certainly a type B and that is a first round pick too.

2006-06-27 00:42:34
414.   Steve
So if Baez and Hall (Good Lord above, why do they always come to me? Why?) are both Type As (hypothetically), we would get four draft picks? But Hall would almost certainly take arbitration. He's crap on a stick. And all that confidence about Baez's ability to sign a multi-year may be misplaced too. Right now, it looks to me like we're trading for a whole bunch of non-tender-y goodness.
2006-06-27 00:43:45
415.   JoeyP
Hendrickson is basically a lesser experienced Tomko, but one that draws an NBA pension.
2006-06-27 00:44:16
416.   Steve
The Yankees will save us according to rotowire. They have such good luck with wash-ups with "rickson" in their names.
2006-06-27 00:45:51
417.   natepurcell
But Hall would almost certainly take arbitration. He's crap on a stick.

Maybe. But Maybe he wants to start somewhere full time. He will know Martin is the starting catcher.

Same with Baez, he wants to close somewhere, he's not going to close with us.

2006-06-27 00:46:34
418.   natepurcell
Look, I think this trade sucks too and I hope Tony Jackson meant "Aybar for Baker" and not this crap.
2006-06-27 00:51:32
419.   Uncle Miltie
398- so we get a veteran lefty who doesn't strike anyone out and throws about 83 mph. He relies almost exclusively on his defense. Toby Hall is a good defensive catcher who has poor plate discipline and no use to the Dodgers. He also makes a decent amount of money. Meanwhile, the Dodgers trade a promising catcher who could have been used to acquire a youngish starting pitcher. Before this year, Hendrickson wasn't a major league quality pitcher. He's the left handed Jae Seo, just add about 8-10 inches in height. Another heist for the D-rays if this is true.
2006-06-27 00:52:42
420.   regfairfield
417 What team, other than the Devil Rays, has a catching situation so dire they woul start Toby Hall?
2006-06-27 00:56:30
421.   Steve
420 -- I was just thinking that.

419 -- That's exactly right. Navarro needed to be part of the Showcase Showdown. Izturis, Navarro, and tradable prospect for ________. Now the D-Rays get addition by merciful subtraction and we get stuck with more garbage to lug around on the 40 man.

2006-06-27 00:58:10
422.   Steve
Pirates? Padres (post-Piazza)? He's an out machine, so the Angels would love him.
2006-06-27 00:58:35
423.   Uncle Miltie
It's pretty sad that I now have more faith in Elgin Baylor (the Clippers GM) than I do in Ned Colletti.
2006-06-27 01:00:32
424.   regfairfield
422 Paulino seems decent, and Doumit would be the catcher for any competent manager. Padres have Bowen and Bard, who at the very least, are better than Hall. The Angels have Napoli, but he can actually hit, so he might get traded for some Jason Phillips RISP goodness.
2006-06-27 01:01:07
425.   Andrew Shimmin
What if it's not Hall, what if it's Huff, to play third when Aybar gets sent to MN. What if they're both (mostly) right? Navarro wouldn't seem like enough to get Huff, though.
2006-06-27 01:03:21
426.   Steve
This would clearly be a fire-able offense. I'll get the blogspot site registered just in case.
2006-06-27 01:03:34
427.   natepurcell
Navarro for Huff and Aybar for Baker wouldn't be bad at all.

Thanks Andrew, I still have hope.

2006-06-27 01:04:32
428.   JoeyP
If Hall is acquired, would the Dodgers carry around 3 catchers? Can you imagine having Sandy and Toby both take up space on the bench? Maybe Ned will throw in Aybar too. Aybar, Navarro for Hall/Hendrickson.

Anything at this point would not surprise.

2006-06-27 01:05:59
429.   Steve
I smell a Drew here.
2006-06-27 01:10:14
430.   Uncle Miltie
I wouldn't be surprised to see these moves either

Aybar for Salomon Torres (former Giant!)

Izturis for Aaron Boone, Joe Randa, or David Bell (former Giant!)

Kuo and Greg Miller for Tood Jones (former all star, proven closer)

2006-06-27 01:18:29
431.   MartinBillingsley31
This tampa bay trade is troublesome.
This mark hendrickson's peripherals are terribe.

This trade deadline is going to be interesting to find out who our GM really is.

The stupid trades/free agent signings (not all of them) that ned did in the offseason can be because of not much available or that he didn't have much time, but whatever he does at the trade deadline will determine what we have in a GM.

2006-06-27 01:19:03
432.   Uncle Miltie
I think the deal is going down


2006-06-27 01:28:01
433.   natepurcell

So its hall and hendrickson for just navarro?

2006-06-27 01:31:56
434.   Andrew Shimmin
It just doesn't make sense. Why acquire a worse backup catcher (on a one year deal) and a crummy pitcher? What would he do with Alomar? Not even Cannuck is so down on Navarro as to think Hall is better. At least I don't think so. And the D'Rays have been trying to get out from under Aubrey Beltre for a while. Also, isn't the 40 man full? So, who else (in addition to Odalis) gets cut loose?
2006-06-27 01:35:49
435.   Uncle Miltie

Look at that beard!

2006-06-27 01:48:04
436.   Andrew Shimmin
D'raysbay thinks the deal could be Henderickson/Hall for Navarro/Seo. I don't care what anybody says, that makes it worse.

2006-06-27 01:52:19
437.   natepurcell
Okay he has an awesome beard. Where do I sign?
2006-06-27 05:18:25
438.   CanuckDodger
434 -- The question isn't, "Is Hall better than Navarro?" It's "Is there a good reason why the Dodgers would rather have Hall than Navarro?" The answer to that question is yes. Hall is a good defensive catcher, and Navarro isn't. It's as simple as that. In talking about Navarro, as well as a few other position players, in the past on this board I have cautioned against thinking offensive stats are all that people should be looking at. And I particularly emphasized that you will never understand the Dodgers' personnel moves if you ignore that defense is something they take very seriously, and likely more seriously than many other teams. The Dodgers already have their starting catcher, Martin, and they are petrified of giving him a day off because Alomar, who has performed well offfensively, is horrible behind the plate and the pitchers hate throwing to him. Navarro is not much better behind the plate, and like Alomar he can't throw anybody out who tries to steal on him, though he works better with pitchers than Alomar. Last year, Hall's percentage of base stealers caught was the third best among catchers in the majors. He's a solid receiver who blocks balls well. Hall is practically everything teams want in a back-up catcher, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Dodgers hope that they can keep him beyond this season as Martin's back-up. Martin's back-up next year was never going to be Alomar or Navarro, that is for sure.
2006-06-27 05:53:25
439.   Andrew Shimmin
Hall is an average defensive catcher (career rate2 of 100, career FRAA of -2) who turned thirty this year. This one really surprises me, Canuck (I'm sorry I misspelled that above).

Colletti signed Alomar a few months ago--are you saying he had a defense epiphany? How does Alomar make sense under this theory you've constructed of the Dodger front office only caring about a catcher's (and, a reserve one, at that) defense?

Hall is practically everything a team might want in a reserve catcher, but Dioner is going to start in Tampa. Is Tampa the only team in the league willing to start Dioner? That's a trick question, because the Dodgers were willing to, this year, before he got hurt. The article linked above says Tampa had a hankering for Dioner during this winter's great Baez fiasco--do you think they wouldn't have pulled the trigger on Navarro for Hall back then?

2006-06-27 06:00:31
440.   Andrew Shimmin
None of this really matters. The point is, you don't trade a prospect catcher for a reserve catcher. Even if you don't want that prospect, trading him for a back up catcher is a worthless move, that makes the team insignificantly better (even positing that it makes it better at all). Navarro has value; perhaps not to Colletti, perhaps not to you, but there are other players in this market. A back up catcher has hardly any (c.f. every backup catcher in the league). Really, how many games is the best backup catcher in the league worth over Navarro, based on whatever metric you care to apply?
2006-06-27 06:14:17
441.   Midwest Blue
440 Andrew, you're missing the best part about Hall: the intangibles. Per the DRay blog, he's a great humanitarian.

"As for Toby, he is honestly the most kind-hearted man on the team. He is an asset not only to the Rays organization for his leadership, but to the community for his caring soul. He sets up charities in support of people in need and especially children in nee, visits children's hospitals in the offseason, and makes sure every fan leaves happy. He is truly the nicest player on the team, and I'm pretty sure in all of baseball."

How can you put a price on niceness?

2006-06-27 06:39:31
442.   Andrew Shimmin
Well, better that he's nice, than a jerk. I still refuse to believe this is happening. How could Colletti have thought Alomar would be better defensively than he's been? If he didn't, why would he be dissatisfied with him now?

If he isn't dissatisfied, why would he trade for a backup catcher on a one year deal (this is relevant because, even if he sees Hall as the future backup catcher, which is a little mindblowing that he'd worry enough about that right now to actually do something about it) why wouldn't he wait till the off season to pick him up? How could three (plus the potential for a fourth) months of having the best backup catcher in the league be worth what Navarro could fetch?

2006-06-27 06:46:47
443.   Andrew Shimmin
Draysbay fans are getting cocky. They want Miller instead of Seo.
2006-06-27 07:44:17
444.   bluegold
The fact that Coletti has not been able to make a deal involving Navarro to any team, except perhaps now to the DRays, shows that -- contrary to what some of you might think -- Navarro has little value to other teams. Is Hendrickson better than Seo/Tomko/Perez? Maybe, maybe not. One thing is for sure: the Dodgers cannot stay with S/T/P if they are going to make a run for the pennant.
2006-06-27 07:47:35
445.   das411
442 - Maybe because that prospect is one of Depo's guys...

440 - A back up catcher has hardly any (c.f. every backup catcher in the league). Really, how many games is the best backup catcher in the league worth over Navarro, based on whatever metric you care to apply?

Nate, care to break out your new metric measuring Pal-itude?

2006-06-27 07:55:35
446.   Sam DC
My power went out around 11 last night, so I missed most of the thread. There's some funny stuf in there, the funniest of course being the notion that we are trading Dioner Navarro for two journeymen.
2006-06-27 08:00:12
447.   Andrew Shimmin
444- Even if nobody wants him (which I don't buy, but will stipulate for the sake of the argument) dumping him for a different backup catcher is senseless. Let him sit in AAA. I'm not expecting Navarro for David Wright straight up. But if you can't get something that would improve the team, why bother making the deal? He's making no money. He's not a clubhouse cancer. Why bother getting rid of a 22 year old, even if he isn't worth anything?
2006-06-27 08:01:03
448.   bluegold
What makes you think Navarro himself is not also a journeyman?
2006-06-27 08:09:14
449.   Andrew Shimmin
448- I think he's 22, playing well in AAA, and played well at the major league level. I expect his defense will improve, and that it's not really that bad to begin with. Even leaving that aside, I think he's a 22 year old catcher with potential to be better than average, and who will be free for a while, who shouldn't be traded for a 30 year old catcher who is a known, worse than average, quantity, in his walk year.
2006-06-27 08:09:47
450.   coachjpark
Say it ain't Seo!
Show/Hide Comments 451-500
2006-06-27 08:11:22
451.   Bob Timmermann
Perhaps Seo was damned by his "ineffective" four innings against the Pirates.


2006-06-27 08:15:11
452.   Andrew Shimmin
Did I miss it, or did you never get back to us on what the SABR listserv decided about whether that had ever happened before?
2006-06-27 08:16:18
453.   SiGeg
444 The fact that Coletti has not been able to make a deal involving Navarro to any team, except perhaps now to the DRays, shows that -- contrary to what some of you might think -- Navarro has little value to other teams.

Is there any evidence that Coletti has been trying and failing to trade Navarro to lots of other teams?

2006-06-27 08:16:46
454.   Jon Weisman
444 - Navarro has been off the disabled list for less than a month. Why would you suggest that Colletti hasn't been able to trade him? Did the clock expire?

If I want to trade Albert Pujols but haven't felt that people are offering me fair value for him, does that mean Pujols has little value to other teams?

2006-06-27 08:22:11
455.   Bob Timmermann
No one has gotten back to me, although I'm not sure how someone would determine it. You would need to find all games in which the team winning the game had its last pitch between 3 and 4 innings, which doesn't happen all that often.

With the expressed intent of belaboring the point, I think the fact that Seo lasted four innings and was not taken is proof that we was not "ineffective". If he had been, he would have been taken out.

2006-06-27 08:35:06
456.   Steve
I do not understand this insistence that we don't "understand" Ned Colletti. We understand Ned Colletti. He appears to be an idiot.
2006-06-27 08:35:49
457.   ToyCannon
Let us wait and see what the final deal is before we jump off the deep end. It is possible this is going to be a multiple team trade. Navarro is no big deal and we get something to help the team this year then I'm for it. Ned may have signed Alomar but it is Little who decides who plays and with the way he's killing Martin he has obviously decided that Alomar should rarely be behind the plate except in a blow out so all this wonking about acquiring Alomar seem out of place. Whoever gave Ned the scouting report that Alomar could still catch was evidently wrong. We need a backup catcher and Ned is going to fix that and probably will put less weight into what that scout says the next time his opinion is asked.

The answer to why you trade a 22 year old now is because they might believe that the more he plays the less value he will garner as teams scout him more and realize that he himself will never even have the career that the average Toby Hall has accumulated.

2006-06-27 08:45:21
458.   Bob Timmermann
Toy Cannon,
It is the Dodger Thoughts way to jump in to the deep end and drown first and ask questions later!

We can judge everything within seconds. We all devotees of Malcolm Gladwell's "Blink."

2006-06-27 08:47:20
459.   alex 7
how can Navarro NOT have at least as good a career as Hall? Hall has a career OPS of .681 while Navarro's, in limited time as a 21 and 22 year old, is .741. Is Hall THAT much better on defense once every five days?
2006-06-27 08:56:50
460.   Steve
What is the present value of garbage? Does garbage go through inflationary cycles? Is there a Fed of garbage? Must we really have Tampa Bay's current garbage over Tampa Bay's future garbage? Really?
2006-06-27 09:01:16
461.   overkill94
Why is everyone acting like this is Navarro for Toby Hall? I think getting a pitcher (albeit a mediocre one) is the focus here with Hall being salary relief for the D-Rays and a quality backup catcher for the Dodgers.

The resident Devil Rays junkie had this to say about Hendrickson recently (and he knows his stuff):
"That is all he has in his arm [his 86 MPH fastball]....and this year he has really become a pitcher. He is setting up hitters and is pitching with a purpose. In the past, it seems his purpose was to nibble and avoid the strikezone unless he really had to go there. Now he works inside and then low and away. He's been hitting that low/outside corner with Glavine-like precision this year."

I'm not totally sold on the trade either, but I have some faith that Hendrickson can maintain a low-4's ERA and that Hall can give Martin some much needed relief, maybe as Hendrickson's semi-personal catcher.

2006-06-27 09:03:29
462.   Andrew Shimmin
I understand the point of trading a 22 year old for a player who will help the team immediately. I'm kind of hoping for a trade like that. I don't see how this trade helps at all, over any time line. Little didn't mind using Navarro most of the time, at the begining of the season. Has he really soured on him so much that he wouldn't use him at all, now? Not even once a week? He's not boycotting [pick your least favorite reliever] so far.

I think it's weird that anybody could have soured on Navarro so much, so soon. I'm not willing to call Colletti an idiot over trade rumors, either. But this one I just don't get. The Baez deal I didn't like, but I understood the point. Is the backup catcher some bizarre closer-esque shibboleth that I haven't noticed before?

2006-06-27 09:05:43
463.   overkill94
Oh, and one more thing about Hendrickson is that he pitches deep into games - almost 7 IP per start this year. With how bad our bullpen is, that should be somewhat of a selling point.
2006-06-27 09:09:40
464.   Steve
The delusions that led to the Baez trade are the same that lead us down this primrose path. I hazard to guess that I could find a million New York writers last year claiming that the Korean Jeff Weaver was "pitching with a purpose."
2006-06-27 09:10:45
465.   dzzrtRatt
462 Trading Navarro almost completes the DePodesta housecleaning. Colletti can't get rid of Penny or Lowe, and Drew is the author of his own fate. Kent was extended by Colletti so Colletti can pretend Kent was his idea. Otherwise, with Navarro off the depth chart, the Dodgers would be almost DePo-free.* I think that means more to Colletti and Jamie McCourt than we can guess.

*(You might naively think Werth and Brazoban are "recovering from injuries" but in fact they've gone into Witness Protection.)

2006-06-27 09:10:48
466.   D4P
he pitches deep into games - almost 7 IP per start this year.

Based on my calculations, he has pitched at least 7 innings 7 times this year. In 5 of those 7 games, he gave up at least 4 runs.

2006-06-27 09:11:50
467.   Jon Weisman
458 - You just made me very sad.
2006-06-27 09:12:51
468.   Andrew Shimmin
Of his three full seasons in the major leagues, Hendrickson has been bad in three of them. He's 32 now; what are the odds that he's having a breakthrough year?
2006-06-27 09:13:25
469.   alex 7
also odd that Colletti would trade with a team that already sent him two players who have underperformed.

In Hendrickson, you have a pitcher with a below-average history having an above average season. Who makes the distiction between "turning the corner" and "lucky season"? The same scouts and GM who made the call on Seo, Carter, and Baez?

But hey, if Henderickson can keep it up and become a #3, then the trade works out. I just think many of us are leery of our brass' ability to consistently assess talent beyond recent ERA / saves.

2006-06-27 09:15:22
470.   Icaros
I remember when Brett Tomko was having a breakout year about six weeks ago.
2006-06-27 09:17:16
471.   D4P
Quick: someone point out to Ned that Hendrickson is 4-8 this season. We need a pitcher who knows how to win!!!
2006-06-27 09:18:14
472.   natepurcell
Who's to say Hendrickson isn't the second coming of Jamie Moyer... Who's to say huh!?!?
2006-06-27 09:19:47
473.   Icaros
Why can't we just sign the second coming of Aaron Sele?
2006-06-27 09:21:07
474.   overkill94
466 4 runs against Hendrickson in 7 IP, Broxton for the 8th, Saito for the 9th, Dodgers win!

Seriously, doesn't that sound better than having a starter give up 2 runs in 5 or 6 IP?

2006-06-27 09:22:48
475.   Steve
If the argument is that more Hendrickson means less Baez, then, at least we're getting somewhere. Though that really doesn't help Colletti.
2006-06-27 09:22:53
476.   D4P
Rotoworld's take:

"The Tampa Tribune reports that the Dodgers could be close to trading Dioner Navarro to the Devil Rays for Mark Hendrickson and Toby Hall. Navarro is expendable now that Russ Martin has emerged as Los Angeles' catcher of the future, but it seems likely that the Dodgers could get more than two mediocre pending free agents for him. Navarro would likely step right in as the Devil Rays' starting catcher, giving him a serious fantasy boost.

2006-06-27 09:25:08
477.   natepurcell
Rotoworld is wrong.

Hendrickson has two more arby years left. But Hall is a free agent.

2006-06-27 09:26:10
478.   overkill94
Just to clarify, Hendrickson is arbitration eligible for the first time, but not a free agent. Not sure if that helps much since he'll probably get $3 million in arb, but still...
2006-06-27 09:26:28
479.   D4P
One wonders if Ned ever sits back and thinks, "Gee, what went wrong in the Baez trade? I mean, the guy saved 41 games last year. How was I to know that he wasn't very good? I mean, what other information can possibly be more important for a closer than the number of games he saved last year...?"
2006-06-27 09:27:33
480.   Steve
Hendrickson is 45 and he has TWO MORE ARBITRATION YEARS LEFT??!?!?!

Twas brillig and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimbel in the wabe
All mimsy were the borogroves
And the momeraths outgrabe...

2006-06-27 09:28:43
481.   Icaros

David Puddy says today feels like an Arbys day.

2006-06-27 09:28:54
482.   Scanman33
479-And his "provenness" makes it all the more perplexing for him.
2006-06-27 09:29:54
483.   natepurcell

He played NBA basketball so he started his pro career late.

2006-06-27 09:31:39
484.   Icaros

If he's a big man, I'd rather Kupchak get him to play the four.

2006-06-27 09:33:48
485.   dzzrtRatt
Interesting reading around the web this morning about a pitcher I honestly had never heard of til today. Apparently Hendrickson is also coveted (maybe the wrong word) by the Yankees, Mets and possibly the Padres. Both Hendrickson and Hall are revered by their teammates as model citizens. Hendrickson gets no run support, but doesn't complain about it.

Teams looking for a #3 starter are also trying to figure out what it would take to get Gil Meche.

This seems like a good time to have a credible-seeming #3 starter on your roster if you're a non-contender like Tampa Bay.

Rotoworld's take seems flawed in that it overrates Navarro. If Colletti is ever going to get value out of Navarro, he has to do it soon. His stock goes down by the week.

2006-06-27 09:37:08
486.   Icaros
Hendrickson gets no run support, but doesn't complain about it.

We've been looking for a guy like this since 2003. Pull the trigger, Ned!

2006-06-27 09:40:32
487.   D4P
It's a conundrum.

Hendrickson gets no run support, but doesn't complain about it.

Oh Dallas is on his way out.

2006-06-27 09:40:42
488.   ToyCannon
No I just don't have any faith that Navarro will ever post an OPS over 700 in a full season with that subpar slug%. Toby Hall had some serious minor league credentials of his own that never translated to the major leagues. I think Little was very unhappy with Navarro and was thrilled to death that he got hurt and Martin came to the teams rescue. Yes, I do think they soured on him very fast.

A soft tossing lefty is not my favorite kind of pitcher to watch but his ERA/WHIP in the toughest league in a tough division is excellent after 13 starts. I'd expect him to have a tough 2nd half in the AL but maybe with the move to the NL he can keep them guessing for 1/2 a season. Maybe he's the next Jamie Moyer. Or the freak with the big ears who we hated on the Giants(Rueter) who always found some bizarre way to win. It is probably just luck this year but maybe he'll be lucky all year. He could be the ying to Sele's yang.

2006-06-27 09:41:36
489.   dzzrtRatt
One more thought: Acquiring Hendrickson might be a good long-term move in this sense. There is just too much pressure on Billingsley right now. A prospect like that should be getting his chances in a lower-pressure situation. But he is the Dodgers' de facto #3 starter, and that, to me, constitutes "rushing" him. Look at all the other comments on this thread slagging him after three starts! But there's a sense of desperation when you've got a $100 million payroll and your 3-4-5 starters are all crapshoots. Acquiring Hendrickson gives you the opportunity to test out Billingsley in less of a do or die environment. The one thing I don't want Chad to turn into is Edwin II.
2006-06-27 09:45:33
490.   D4P
It is probably just luck this year but maybe he'll be lucky all year.

Hu's to Cey he won't?

2006-06-27 09:47:11
491.   King of the Hobos
If we really needed a rec league basketball player, couldn't Coletti convince Bowden to just give us Gigantor? At least we will no longer lose to the Padres rec team, as we finally have a center to compete with Chris Young.
2006-06-27 09:49:32
492.   Steve
We could have gotten Gigantor for the name of a good DUI lawyer.
2006-06-27 09:49:51
493.   Scanman33
"It is probably just luck this year but maybe he'll be lucky all year."

So trade a catcher who is already at the league average and at 22, has a great chance at being above league average, for someone for whom the hope is they remain lucky for the rest of this season?

On a side note, how do you make bold print in this forum?

2006-06-27 09:51:10
494.   D4P
To bold, place asterisks at the beginning and end of a sentence.
2006-06-27 09:54:48
495.   natepurcell
if we trade for the bearded giant and we sign zito this offseason, we will have offically cornered the market on crafty lefties that top out at 88mph.
2006-06-27 09:54:59
496.   Scanman33
Thanks D4P

There has to be a Bonds joke in there somewhere.

2006-06-27 10:02:57
497.   Jon Weisman
New post up top.
2006-06-27 11:42:22
498.   ToyCannon
From a Rob Neyer Chat with a Sandy Koufax quote:
"In the end, it all comes down to talent. You can talk all you want about intangibles, I just don't know what that means. Talent makes winners, not intangibles. Can nice guys win? Sure, nice guys can win -- if they're nice guys with a lot of talent. Nice guys with a little talent finish fourth, and nice guys with no talent finish last."

Sandy meet Toby Hall

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