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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
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7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
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Tampa 'eBay'
2006-07-02 08:42
by Jon Weisman

It's so rare for a print journalist to challenge the wisdom of Dodger general manager Ned Colletti, but Keven Chavez of the Whittier Daily News does:

(Mark Hendrickson's) pitches seemed to vary between slow and straight, and medium-fast and straight, fooling few Angels batters ... if this was truly what the Dodgers expected, as (Grady) Little said, then general manager Ned Colletti might want to borrow Adam Sandler's remote control and rewind back to the moment he made this latest deal.

In fact, the Devil Rays appear to be becoming Colletti's personal version of eBay, where he can overpay for someone else's junk. But instead of using a PayPal account, Colletti is making his purchases with the team's most valuable currency - their young prospects.

Colletti gave up 22-year-old former catcher of the future Dioner Navarro and 28-year-old pitcher Jae Seo for two players who play the same positions, are older, more expensive and certainly have less room to improve.

I'm not trying to reignite the days-old debate on this week's trade, but again, just commenting on how rare this point of view was in the papers.

* * *

Today's Game

Comments (383)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2006-07-02 09:22:38
1.   Jeff Iannucci
Well, there goes the Whittier Daily News press credential.

Seriously though, it's nice to see someone question a trade, but as you mentioned it's also premature to judge the results. I'd like to point out that while the Baez/Jackson trade looked egregious at the time, it may have just been one man's junk for another's. Nobody from that trade is performing at an acceptable rate.

Which is not to say you discount the amount of Baez's salary when reviewing that trade, but if Navarro goes south then this trade is more of the same - underperformers for underperformers.

Then again, that's pretty sad if that is the BEST case scenario for the Dodgers.

2006-07-02 09:24:36
2.   Marty
Even better, the all-star teams are announced today. That means one more Devil Rays all-star. It's just what the Dodgers like best.

Something to look forward to.

2006-07-02 09:30:34
3.   LAT
The reference to Ebay and Paypal is perfect. Someone else's junk. Its not about judging Hendrickson after one game its the giving up two players who are on the first couple of holes of thier career for two players who are on the 17th green.
And its getting to be an all to framiliar story. I wouldn't mind giving these guys up if we were getting something in return. But after Ned has spent the second tier prospects, will he stop. Depo ain't never coming back but I would be happy if Dan Evens were the GM right now.
2006-07-02 09:33:15
4.   LAT
1. For me, the thing about the Baez trade wasn't losing Jackson or Tiff but getting Carter and Baez who have cost us a dozen games. Jackson and Tiff would not have made the ML roster and we might have lost only 5 or 6 of those games giving us the NL West lead.
2006-07-02 09:49:14
5.   Andrew Shimmin
Why do they even bother trying to launch the space shuttles from Florida? The state is not only unfit for human life, but apparently machines made to withstand reentry in to the Earth's atmosphere can't tolerate it either? Aren't there volcanoes, somewhere, that could be used isntead? Why not put the launch deck on top of a ship that follows around tropical storms?
2006-07-02 10:06:42
6.   Izzy
For the record, Hedrickson's ERA actually dropped yesterday. That may start another type of debate, but it is quirky and funny. I myself have no opinion on him yet, and will wait a few more starts before offereing one. Losing Seo doesn't bother me much, but Navarro could come back to bite us. His utter inability to throw out runners didn't bode well, in spite of his OBP and promising hitting. Martin is clearly the man. I just hope it lasts.
2006-07-02 10:16:48
7.   Scanman33
Apparently, the NL All-Stars have been leaked:

Go to "Please Choose" to find the team. Credit goes to the ESPN Dodger Board.

2006-07-02 10:22:19
8.   Andrew Shimmin
7- In that vein; hey look, a Tampa Bay all-star I wouldn't mind seeing Flanders trade for.

2006-07-02 10:23:04
9.   heato
not a great first inning for Seo
2006-07-02 10:25:06
10.   Scanman33
The only problem I see with the NL team is that there is only one catcher.
2006-07-02 10:27:02
11.   Scanman33
Here were my thoughts on who should make it from the NL:

2006-07-02 10:30:22
12.   DaveP
Paul Lo Duca made the All Star team? Check out his offensive and defensive numbers. Martin is having a much better season any way you look at it. Lo Duca is throwing out 23% of baserunners and Martin is throwing out 33%, as well.
2006-07-02 10:32:16
13.   Johnson
10 Yeah, it can't be a full list - there are only 23 listed in the AL. 25 in the NL, but isn't the roster bigger than that?

Besides, I've got a White Sox fan at my work telling me that Ozzie is threatening to pick 7 Sox and Thome's the only one listed (leaving Dye, Konerko, Crede, Pierzynski, Contreras and Jenks in the cold - not that all those guys should make it).

2006-07-02 10:37:17
14.   Johnson
The NL list has six OF (Bay, Beltran, Cabrera, Holliday, Jones, Soriano), four 1B (Berkman, Garciaparra, Howard, Pujols) and only four other position players (Utley, Reyes, Wright, Lo Duca) to cover 2B, SS, 3B, C. Not kosher.
2006-07-02 10:39:19
15.   das411
Oh man, how sweet would it be if Ozzie picks like 18 ChiSox for his team and just gives the Commish a giant one-finger salute?

14 - Miggy C has played 3B all year, and Soriano could easily be another 2B...I seem to remember that Pujols guy breaking in at 3rd also...

2006-07-02 10:40:19
16.   Eric L
13 Ozzie can threaten all he wants, but the manager doesn't have the same control that they used to when it comes to picking rosters.
2006-07-02 10:42:33
17.   Scanman33
As much as I'd like to say our old pal Sir Lance-a-not was the worst All-Star of the last 10 years, I'd have to go with Mike Williams in 2003 with his 6+ ERA (but he had the magical 20+ saves!). That turned out to be his last season due to his overall ineffectiveness. Has this happened to any other All-Star in recent memory?
2006-07-02 10:43:37
18.   Johnson
15 Didn't realize Cabrera was playing third! Anyway, I can imagine that given the stink about Soriano moving positions in the offseason that MLB would allow him to play 2B in the All-Star Game. They might make...strongly worded the contrary.

Unless Soriano were allowed to play a position in the All-Star Game that he hasn't played in the regular season, we're still looking at only two middle infielders.

2006-07-02 10:50:44
19.   Blu2
This certainly bears repeating:
Flanders is an idiot!
2006-07-02 10:58:01
20.   JoeyP
You guys have to remember that
Colletti himself used to be a sportswriter. He's part of the media fraternity himself.
The media sees him as one of their own, so its highly unlikey they are going to rip a friend.
Its kinda strange but I see a parallel in the print media/blogs, to that of the mid 90's with CNN/Fox News. Fox News has far surpassed CNN in terms of viewership now, bc people obviously got tired of the spin at CNN. I think that war is being raged right now in the print media/blog medium. Print media columnists are being tuned out in favor of more analytical and well thought out works of the bloggers.

So whatever Bill Plaschke writes, it doesnt bother me. I can get news, opinion, and entertainment from better sources anyway.

2006-07-02 11:09:31
21.   GoBears
1 underperformers for underperformers.

Well, in terms of the immediate impact, sure. But don't forget the effect on payroll, which affects future, even near-future, decisions, and the fact that the set of underperformers with room and time to improve is the set going away from Los Angeles, while the set more likely to get even worse (due to age) is the set coming here.

When you trade new for old, the effect on the 25-man roster had better not be a wash. Higher costs and higher discount rates mean they'd better be worth a lot more immediately to be worth trading for.

2006-07-02 11:12:15
22.   DaveP
David Ross hit his 11th HR for Cincinatti today. He's done it in only 108 at bats.
2006-07-02 11:12:56
23.   Andrew Shimmin
20- Your ideas intrigue me. I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.
2006-07-02 11:15:07
24.   JoeyP
Its $12/mo but I do accept donations ;)
2006-07-02 11:17:11
25.   Andrew Shimmin
Oops, looks like the line should be, "Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter."
2006-07-02 11:25:36
26.   JoeyP

Ultra scrappy lineup today.
Lofton the DH again.
Kent the day off.

2006-07-02 11:28:20
27.   King of the Hobos
26 At least Martin finally is batting ahead of Izturis though
2006-07-02 11:28:51
28.   JoeyP
What a great band!

4 Banjos
3 Drums
1 Sax
1 Piano

2006-07-02 11:45:13
29.   Gagne55
Lowe + 4 shortstop infield = good

Nomar-Drew-Ethier is enough to get a run. Thats all the Dodgers need.

2006-07-02 11:48:13
30.   King of the Hobos
29 Problem is that Billingsley, not Lowe, is starting, and there's no defense against his walks.
2006-07-02 11:48:23
31.   thinkingblue

You're kidding me, Grady puts Lofton as the DH instead of Kent? Ugh, can we please put our best hitters (i.e. Kent, Saenz) in the DH instead of Lofton?

2006-07-02 12:06:21
32.   Bob Timmermann
Since when is the DH supposed to be a team's best hitter? It's usually the player who is the combo of good bat/bad glove/doesn't mind sitting around.
2006-07-02 12:13:10
33.   thinkingblue

Well, the point is that I would rather have Saenz or Kent instead of Lofton.

2006-07-02 12:13:29
34.   LAT
Who knew I had 2/3 of the qualities of a successful DH
2006-07-02 12:18:52
35.   Blu2
Where's all the character guys we were signing? I'm very disappointed in the lack of integrety in ball players who alledgedly have 'character'. If someone paid me a God-awful amount of money to play ball, I'd feel I owed them something in return. Injuries are a part of the game and both sides should take them in stride to some degree. Someone like Gagne, who told everybody it was all about respect, should have some respect himself. In the last two years he has received almost $20 million in salary and performed almost not at all for his overly loyal fans and the club. Not deliberate on his part and everyone knows that. Yet I would feel that I had let a lot of people down and I would do something to make up for it. There is nothing that can be done about his contract, he couldn't give the money back if he wanted to, law and union rules. But I would feel obligated to sign for the next year or two at very low wages, maybe #2 million a year. If he is a moral man, he will do that. I think Mueller and Drew owe us something, too. Drew is, and always does, under-performs. He has super star potential but always gets injured and puts in 60% to 80% of a year. He knows it's going to happen and he should take that into consideration when he signs a contract. Mueller too had to know his knee was not right and that he would not be able to do what he was paid for. These two also get no respect from me. They deserve a rousing 'boo' if they ever play again.
2006-07-02 12:20:33
36.   Bob Timmermann

I'm guessing you don't have disability insurance do you?

2006-07-02 12:20:56
37.   the OZ
20 I have no desire to turn this into a political discussion, but Fox News surpassed CNN in veiwership because it targets the largest plurality segment of the population: people who self-identify as conservative at least one issue. Besides, all news is an entertainment product anyway, you might as well design a product that;s going to make you the most money. That's what Fox is good at, and CNN is not so good at.

A professor of mine was in News Corp.'s boardroom when Ruperty Murdoch announced his plans for a conservative cable news channel in the US, claiming that there was a tremendous market opportunity since none of the news channels reported news from a conservative stance.

News providers are out to make money. The politics is secondary.

2006-07-02 12:24:59
38.   Blu2
36 No, I'm retired but that's not relevant. The club no doubt has insurance on them. But what about loyalty, is it only one way, to the player and not from the player? It's not a legal question, it's a moral question. If someone doesn't feel it, no one can explain it to them. I feel it, you don't.
2006-07-02 12:37:26
39.   Fallout
37 the OZ
News providers are out to make money. The politics is secondary.

That is the conventional wisdom but I do not buy it. Since Fox is so successful why hasn't another network followed so many have in radio with all the conservative commentators?
Besides, (argument time) Fox is more center than conservative.
Want conservative, try Michael Savage.

2006-07-02 12:38:39
40.   Eric L
38 If Gagne was hurt and couldn't pitch beyond his contract this season, would the club show "loyality" to him?
2006-07-02 12:47:42
41.   Marty
Impressive inning for Bills.
2006-07-02 12:48:19
42.   bhsportsguy
As Dick Enberg would say, Oh my...nice breaking ball for a swing and miss on Figgins and then a called 3rd strike and pop up after getting ahead.

Its early but certainly one of his best innings and his best first inning in Chad's 5 starts.

2006-07-02 12:49:18
43.   Andrew Shimmin
Just got back from lunch. I caught a very little bit of the Nats D'Backs game. Did they really give Seo number 98? That's sort of sad.
2006-07-02 12:50:04
44.   confucius
Billingsly threw smoke in that inning.
2006-07-02 12:55:50
45.   bhsportsguy
One thing I can say about this team, is that very rarely do I think that this team won't score even if the opposition's pitcher looks dominating early.

On the other hand, I will be happy to end this stretch of facing good starting pitching and go back to the National League West.

2006-07-02 13:09:13
46.   thinkblue0

hell just froze over.

2006-07-02 13:10:38
47.   thinkblue0
that might have been Furcal's worst AB this entire season
2006-07-02 13:10:42
48.   King of the Hobos
Sal Fasano left today's game with left knee inflammation. Hopefully for the sake of Nate and Sal's Pals, he's ok.
2006-07-02 13:14:02
49.   the OZ
39 Since Fox is so successful why hasn't another network followed so many have in radio with all the conservative commentators?

That's a logical question. The answer is simply that they can't compete with Fox for conservative viewership. That's what Fox News's whole brand identity is tied up in; it's what they're good at. That's not true for CNN or other cable outlets. Do you think a Fox viewer is going to switch back to watching CNN just because CNN adopts a more conservative flavor to its product? To conservative viewers, CNN's brand is "typical liberal BS" and Fox is "finally, a fair look at the news" (I admit this is a sweeping generalization). If CNN goes conservative, Fox viewers don't care since they already got a product they like, and CNN's current viewership goes somewhere else for news because they don't like to new product. Then CNN has nothing.

Instead of competing where they can't win CNN keeps on fighting for their core audience. Since they ignored their market and allowed Fox a place to enter and thrive, that audience is a lot smaller than it once was.

2006-07-02 13:19:21
50.   confucius
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2006-07-02 13:19:23
51.   Andrew Shimmin
Goodnight nurse.
2006-07-02 13:21:08
52.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Following via Gameday - what happened?
2006-07-02 13:21:12
53.   JoeyP
Help for gameday.
How did Orlando Cabrera steal home?
2006-07-02 13:21:21
54.   Bob Timmermann
I saw a steal of a home AND and an inside-the-park home run last night in Tacoma. I got the double bill.

As with Cabrera's steal, the key in both plays was somebody screwing up.

2006-07-02 13:21:31
55.   dagwich
50,51 -- help us poor souls who are following on Gameday. What happened?
2006-07-02 13:22:01
56.   DaveP
53 - Billingsley took a quick nap on the mound and Cabrera ran home without a throw.
2006-07-02 13:22:06
57.   JoeyP
I dont think I've ever seen a straight steal of home plate. I gotta see that.
2006-07-02 13:22:18
58.   Andrew Shimmin
Billingsly fell asleep on the mound. Just didn't look up. As Cabrera swiped it.
2006-07-02 13:22:21
59.   Bob Timmermann
Billingsley was in the windup position and not looking over to third when Cabrera broke. He likely feared balking so he didn't even throw home.
2006-07-02 13:22:29
60.   Marty
I think he could have kept going and stole first.
2006-07-02 13:22:45
61.   DXMachina
As Vin said, Billingsly took a nap on the mound. He wasn't looking at Cabrera at all, and Cabrera just took off.
2006-07-02 13:23:18
62.   JoeyP
56. I dont want it to happen, but those are the types of rookie mistakes that get a guy sent to the minors, especially with the Dodgers in a division race.

Thats inexcusable for a little leaguer.

2006-07-02 13:23:20
63.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
56 - Rookie mistake.
Remember in '92 when Piazza went to the mound without calling time? That also ended in an unchallenged steal of home.
2006-07-02 13:23:48
64.   DaveP
59 - I don't think Billingsley even noticed he was stealing home until he was a couple steps away. He was completely asleep.
2006-07-02 13:23:54
65.   Andrew Shimmin
I think that means Billingsly has to bean him the next time he comes up. I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure that's a rule.
2006-07-02 13:25:07
66.   das411
Meanwhile the Phillies are about to win a game in which they used zero starters (not counting Ryan Franklin of course)...hmm...
2006-07-02 13:25:18
67.   JoeyP
Isnt it partly the catcher's job to be looking at the guy at 3rd too? Was Martin not paying attention either?
2006-07-02 13:25:39
68.   Bob Timmermann
I was surprised when Vin mentioned that the Angels hadn't had a steal of home since Tony Phillips.

You would think a team like the Angels would have tried a delayed double steal in that time. Especially since they have had some fast guys in the last few years.

2006-07-02 13:26:35
69.   Bob Timmermann
Martin was yelling for the ball and standing up in front of the plate. He can't catch the ball if it's not thrown to him.
2006-07-02 13:27:01
70.   Uncle Miltie
These are the types of plays that get you sent down. That and the walks. If you get hammered fine, but when you aren't throwing strikes you don't deserve to win. One or two more poor starts and Billingsley is getting sent down.

Hilarious that the All Stars were leaked. How did 5 Red Sox make the team?

Nice to see Nomar and Penny on the team.

2006-07-02 13:28:15
71.   Andrew Shimmin
69- He could have slugged the guy. Just not a team player, I guess.
2006-07-02 13:30:19
72.   JoeyP
Its too bad bc this is the best Billingsley has looked all year. Granted its the Angels, and a team that lacks patience will ultimately help Billz out, but Billz has looked good for the most part.
2006-07-02 13:31:33
73.   DXMachina
How did 5 Red Sox make the team?

Because they are America's team. Don't you read the Boston papers?

2006-07-02 13:31:40
74.   dagwich
Welcome to the bigs, Billz. I hope he can recover his poise and move on through the next few innings. Should be interesting to see. Last year, Jeff Weaver would have imploded and given up 5 runs in the same situation.
2006-07-02 13:32:33
75.   thinkblue0
Everyone blasts me when I say this, but we need a bat in this lineup. If we're going to continue to play Lofton and Izturis then we need a Carlos Lee type player. Of course, I don't want to trade prospects for a rental but if we could get someone like that for the next few years we've gotta do it.

I just can't get over how and/or why Izturis continues to get penciled in on the lineup card every day. The goal on a nightly basis should be to put the best lineup possible out there...and having Izturis in there doesn't give us our best lineup. When we're back playing in the NL only it'll literally be like having two pitchers hitting...and that's a recipe for disaster especially with how our pitching has been performing....

2006-07-02 13:33:37
76.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Judging by Gameday, the book on Kemp is low and away.
2006-07-02 13:33:41
77.   Bob Timmermann
Why is giving up a steal of home so much worse than doing something like walking a lot of guys?

We have liked seen the first and last person to steal home against Chad Billingsley.

I think Whitey Ford should have never pitched again after Jackie Robinson stole home against him in the 1955 World Series.

2006-07-02 13:36:50
78.   JoeyP
Why is giving up a steal of home so much worse than doing something like walking a lot of guys?

Bc paying attention is easier than throwing strikes.

2006-07-02 13:36:57
79.   Uncle Miltie
He just walked freaking Garret Anderson!
2006-07-02 13:37:59
80.   confucius
and he was 0-2 to him
2006-07-02 13:38:20
81.   JoeyP
75. I completel agree, but it might not have helped today. Lackey is a really good pitcher. Sometimes the other team is just better on a given day.
2006-07-02 13:39:19
82.   confucius
Bills needed that DP. He has to be rattled after that last inning.
2006-07-02 13:40:15
83.   Bob Timmermann
So let's see a pitcher could:
1) walk a lot of guys
2) give up a lot of home runs
3) throw away every ball that he fields

But if he doesn't pay attention and allows a steal of home once, he gets strung up like a horse thief?

Sometimes I feel like I'm reading "The Ox-Bow Incident" here.

2006-07-02 13:40:50
84.   Andrew Shimmin
Allowing a steal of home is not as bad as giving a walk with the bases loaded. That's my most hated mistake. But it's pretty rough. I don't think he should be demoted, or traded to Tampa Bay. But I do think he should hit Cabrera. Hard.
2006-07-02 13:40:50
85.   bhsportsguy
Nice recovery, I think if he keeps it up, he should go 6 at least.
2006-07-02 13:41:08
86.   confucius
People need to stop saying Guerrero is a 5 tool player. He cannot field his position.
2006-07-02 13:41:56
87.   dsfan
The march of the chuckers brigade continues. What's so hard about developing a few pitchers who can throws strikes and actually show pitching aptitude? Everyone gets lathered up over miles per hour, but how many of these guys know how to pitch?
2006-07-02 13:42:33
88.   Uncle Miltie
86- or run anymore
2006-07-02 13:42:49
89.   bhsportsguy
83 I think perhaps a Rashomon moment with the viewpoints of Billingsley, Martin, Cabrera and maybe the ball to tell us how it all happened.
2006-07-02 13:43:16
90.   JoeyP
83. People are always rougher on mental mistakes than physical mistakes.
2006-07-02 13:43:34
91.   bhsportsguy
We have some generous umpires today, I think they want to get out of the sun.
2006-07-02 13:45:38
92.   Gen3Blue
Darn, if we are not making another pitcher look like Roger Clemens!
2006-07-02 13:45:40
93.   fawnkyj
I really ahve to blame ESPN for there being 5 redsox all stars. All they ever show on Espn are Red sox/yankees games and highlights. just about everyday. No wonder they got so mnay players in the all star.
2006-07-02 13:49:15
94.   CanuckDodger
87 -- The art of pitching is learned through experience; you can't learn arm strength. The Dodgers don't draft junk ballers with finesse that they hope can make a nice 5th starter some day.

And by the way, what is the velocity on Billingsley's fastball today? He's getting more swings and misses than he was in past games.

2006-07-02 13:50:07
95.   Gen3Blue
This Angel pitching staff looks damn good. I didn't realize that.
2006-07-02 13:51:12
96.   thinkblue0

or our lineup looks damn bad. Either way, it's not good.

2006-07-02 13:51:28
97.   DXMachina
93 - There's that, too. It's gotten so that it seems half the games on ESPN are blacked out for me because I live in the Red Sox blackout zone.
2006-07-02 13:51:41
98.   thinkblue0
anyone heard any news on Weaver? The fact that I actually want him back at this point is really, really sad.
2006-07-02 13:52:03
99.   fawnkyj
Loney with a 2 run bomb today. Power is blossoming.
2006-07-02 13:52:38
100.   Johnson
The thing that bothers me most about Billingsley is that he seems to lose every single batter he goes 2-0 on. Has he ever in fact retired a major league batter after going 2-0?
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2006-07-02 13:53:12
101.   thinkblue0

I have a feeling if any big prospects get traded he's going to be the one.

2006-07-02 13:54:40
102.   Uncle Miltie
93- David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez I can understand. Papelbon deserves to be there too. Varitek's heart and leadership is why he made the team. Schilling has been good, but not all star worthy.

How did Carl Crawford not make the team?
Are these numbers not all star worthy:
.315/.359/.510 12 HR 27 SB

2006-07-02 13:55:09
103.   bhsportsguy
95 While not as dominant due to Colon's ineffectiveness and injuries and Weaver unable to do a Paul Byrd imination, the Angels on paper have a pretty good rotation.

There are some flaws, Santana's inability to win on the road, Escobar had a long losing streak and Colon is still not quite back.

It was their pitching that kept them in games last year, so when they get ineffective starting pitching, they don't have the offense to make up for that.

2006-07-02 13:55:45
104.   DXMachina
102 - Crawford didn't make it because they took Varitek and Schilling.
2006-07-02 13:55:55
105.   Bob Timmermann
Has he ever in fact retired a major league batter after going 2-0?

According to the splits on Yahoo sports, the answer is yes.

Coming into the game, hitters had a BA of .222 after Billingsley had a 2-0 count. Three hits, two walks, and one K.

2006-07-02 13:56:31
106.   bhsportsguy
Well for some reason, this has been the magic inning for the Dodgers, so let's see what happens.
2006-07-02 13:57:10
107.   JoeyP
Billingsley only at 68 through 5. He might pitch 7 today. He hasnt been that impressive, but he has been encouraging with the swing and misses. 7-5 GB/FB is ok.
2006-07-02 13:57:17
108.   confucius
Billinglsy has recovered nicely.
2006-07-02 13:58:08
109.   Uncle Miltie
94- the hardest he's thrown has been 94. He wasn't even dominating AAA. We can keep him up here and waste his service time and send him back to the minors and let him develop. I'd give him 2 more starts.
2006-07-02 14:00:09
110.   JoeyP
Hasnt his service time already started even if he gets sent back down?
2006-07-02 14:00:13
111.   Daniel Zappala
109 Billingsley at this point is better than Hendrickson and Tomko, so I think he stays.
2006-07-02 14:03:19
112.   Fallout
75 thinkblue0
...but we need a bat in this lineup.

Losing Mueller really hurts.

84 Andrew Shimmin
>>>Allowing a steal of home is not as bad as giving a walk with the bases loaded.<<<

I think that is a big factor in Seo being traded...that Oakland extra inning game.

2006-07-02 14:03:30
113.   JoeyP
I'd definitely let him learn on the job, given the other options.
2006-07-02 14:03:47
114.   Gen3Blue
Damn-Lofton hits whenever Furcal doesn't. Part of this stretch is bad Ka.
103 That sounds like us, except for the part about pitching keeping us in games.
105 Those stats sound contradictory, although I guess they could work out.
2006-07-02 14:06:02
115.   Gen3Blue
Nice at bat-Drew. Pitiful
2006-07-02 14:06:45
116.   Gen3Blue
This is no running Lackey!
2006-07-02 14:07:20
117.   Uncle Miltie
111- if we send him down now and wait to call him up until September than this won't can't as a full year of service time

I have a feeling that JD Drew isn't going to opt out of his contract

2006-07-02 14:07:28
118.   Johnson
105 Wow. Much better than I expected, with only two walks in...comes up to 13.5 ABs...something's off. I'll try to look at the splits. I can say that today he's gone to 2-0 four times in the 2nd-5th (no data for bottom of first on MLB Gameday for some reason) and he walked 3 and allowed a double in those four instances.
2006-07-02 14:08:45
119.   JoeyP
Did John Lackey make the AL pitching All-stars?
2006-07-02 14:10:06
120.   thinkblue0
I sense a trade for David Bell coming in the next few days....

Vlad HR, I'm outta here, see you guys tomorrow night.

2006-07-02 14:10:33
121.   JoeyP
No harm there.
Vlad is just good.
2006-07-02 14:14:03
122.   Johnson
118 On the Yahoo data, it's only two hits, not three, so it's 2-9, and 5 walks. Makes much more sense. (After today it's 3-10 and 8 walks, so far.)
2006-07-02 14:14:20
123.   fawnkyj
Beimel has Fasano-like facial hair thing going today.
2006-07-02 14:15:52
124.   Gen3Blue
I understand everyones concern about Izzy's offense, but right now we can't afford to give up any more runs per game. Its not as if we are one offensive player away right now. Kent and Drew aren't doing much right now, possibly because of the way they are being used.
2006-07-02 14:16:38
125.   Bob Timmermann
That does add up. I was up mighty early today and all the numbers run together right now.
2006-07-02 14:18:13
126.   Uncle Miltie
How much more of this can we take from Fookie? Just move Izzy back to SS.
2006-07-02 14:18:55
127.   Gen3Blue
Well, I think we might be better off with banjo shortstop and a power 3rd baseman.
2006-07-02 14:20:51
128.   Johnson
Assuming that he's done, I'd say that was all-in-all a nice outing by Bills. 2 ER in 6, with one being a steal of home that will never happen again, and the other being a short-porch solo shot by Vlad.

When's Rafael Furcal Voodoo Doll night at the ravine?

2006-07-02 14:22:23
129.   Bob Timmermann

That reminds me that I did not win the silent auction for the Odalis Perez autographed baseball. I put in the minimum bid of $20, but someone else had bid $22 before I left.

The money did go to ALS research, so it's not like it would have been an entirely frivolous purchase.

2006-07-02 14:23:10
130.   Uncle Miltie
These umpires really hate us. Kemp's bat did not cross the plate.
2006-07-02 14:23:57
131.   JoeyP
Billingsley did ok.
Its kinda of tempered enthusiasm bc he was facing the Halos.
But the swing and misses were encouraging.
2006-07-02 14:25:14
132.   Gen3Blue
I take it Kent is not injured but just resting. I know he pitched in at least five games last week.
2006-07-02 14:25:32
133.   dsfan

There's a great deal of pitching value to be gleaned off the amateur market that falls between "junkballers" and guys with "high upside."

The Dodgers have failed miserably and inexcusably in this area and are again paying a big price for it.

A franchise with their resources should be able to draft for "high upside" yet also produce a respectable number of Nos. 3-5 starters.

Their inability to meet this not-so-high bar reduced the leverage of past and present GMs who forever are panting desperately for "proven" pitchers. So you end up flushing $24 million on Odalis, $9 million on Tomko. So you end up trading young, if dubious talent for the likes of Hendrickson. And there will be more of this to come.

When's the last time the Dodgers produced a couple of No. 4 starters? It shouldn't be that hard. Lots of clubs do it.

2006-07-02 14:27:11
134.   Louis in SF
Continued clutch errors by Frucal and Drew, to further help are spotty pitching
2006-07-02 14:27:37
135.   Johnson
Some days you're the DR Trimmer-Mower, and some days you're the weed. Nice job by Lackey.
2006-07-02 14:28:50
136.   Linkmeister
Furcal errors
2000 23
2001 11
2002 27
2003 31
2004 24
2005 15

2001 he only played in 79 games.

Looks like last year was an aberration.

2006-07-02 14:29:48
137.   JoeyP
Well to be fair, Odalis had a 3.25 ERA when he was resigned. He had prior to that had a season of a 3.00 ERA. The guy WAS good, and 24mils was market value. They were probably thinking he was a solid #3.

But I agree with you that the organization shoudl be good enough to produce #4/#5 instead of wasting cash on Tomkos/Seos/Hendricksons. Houlton didnt even come from the Dodgers, and EJ didnt start that much. Yeah, its been awhile since the team produced a 4/5. I think Ketchner could have been, if he had stayed healthy at least.

2006-07-02 14:31:10
138.   JoeyP
Of course, Ketchner wasnt drafted by the Dodgers either.
2006-07-02 14:31:50
139.   Uncle Miltie
Not to be a jerk, but that's bad karma
2006-07-02 14:33:05
140.   Gen3Blue
I didn't catch that, why couldn't Martin run to first.
2006-07-02 14:33:13
141.   Gen3Blue
I didn't catch that, why couldn't Martin run to first.
2006-07-02 14:35:07
142.   Bob Timmermann
Martin did run to first. He just stopped when he got thrown out.
2006-07-02 14:36:39
143.   herman
With Lofton, Furcal, and Izturis in the lineup I am surpised that we don't have 10 runs by now. LOL
2006-07-02 14:39:02
144.   Bob Timmermann
Good to see that the Robert Benchley of our virtugal Algonquin Roundtable has showed up.
2006-07-02 14:43:06
145.   natepurcell
just got home from work. how did chad do?

Loney is on fire. 2-3 2b, hr his OPS is up to 979. pretty good for a 22 yr old non prospect.

2006-07-02 14:43:25
146.   dsfan

We never spoke before the Dodgers guaranteed $24 million on Odalis. You don't have to believe me. But I thought it was huge overpay at the time and tended to believe they were mostly bidding against themselves.

Odalis had some alarming work loads earlier in his career. His conditioning was suspect. His offfield behavior was said to be detrimental to his health and focus. His injury chart, which already included reconstructive elbow surgery, was getting more ink by the year. His pitch quality was in decline.
Market value? It was an inflated market, as the free-agent market tends to be for starting pitchers.
My central point, and I guess we agree, is the Dodgers enter into these decisions with far less leverage than they should becuase they fail to produce a respectable portion of their own starting pitching.

2006-07-02 14:43:59
147.   thinkingblue
Between JD Drew, Rafael Furcal, and Odalis Perez, and Eric Gagne (although it's not his fault), we have about 45 million dollars of about NOTHING.
2006-07-02 14:44:54
148.   dsfan

Why do you refer to Loney as a non-prospect?

He's gotten more ink than a young Wes Parker.

2006-07-02 14:45:05
149.   DXMachina
144 virtugal

Perfect description of Dorothy Parker.

2006-07-02 14:45:09
150.   Bob Timmermann

The Magic 8-ball says

"Ask Again Later"

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2006-07-02 14:45:28
151.   herman
I had to google Robert Benchley to understand what you meant by that comment Bob. Thanks, I guess?
2006-07-02 14:46:29
152.   thinkingblue
how did chad do?

Pretty decently, probably only 2 earned run in 6 innings, quality start, bad defense, and he let someone steal home.

2006-07-02 14:46:37
153.   Bob Timmermann
Actually, I think "Virtugal" should be near Spain.
2006-07-02 14:47:13
154.   JoeyP
147. How is Drew nothing? He's the 2nd most productive hitter on the team behind Nomar.
2006-07-02 14:48:17
155.   Uncle Miltie
Vlad must hate walking. That made me laugh.
2006-07-02 14:48:42
156.   natepurcell

I think Loney is a propsect. It was just a innocent jab at some of the people here who referred to Loney as a non prospect earlier in the season.

2006-07-02 14:51:24
157.   herman
Loney is a prospect. Let's trade him for someone on the Ray's. LOL
2006-07-02 14:52:44
158.   herman
Too bad the ray's traded V. Zambrano two years ago. Now that is a great pitcher. LOL
2006-07-02 14:55:29
159.   Linkmeister
For a team that's leading its league in hitting, the Dodgers seem to wish they were at the beach today (I'm seeing the Angels broadcast, and a few inning ago they were showing beach shots). Maybe I ought to go myself.
2006-07-02 14:57:19
160.   Uncle Miltie
Anyone notice that James Loney Sr. is hitting for more power than usual. 11 home runs already, but his line is pretty ugly

He might actually hit 20 home runs playing half of his games at Petco

2006-07-02 14:57:46
161.   thinkingblue
He's the 2nd most productive hitter on the team behind Nomar.

That's a joke right?

C'mon, coming into the game, Ethier, Nomar, Kent, Kemp, AND Saenz had a higher OPS.

And we're paying Drew 11 million dollars to have 10 RBIs in 23 games. And he's hitting .256 with runners in scoring position.

2006-07-02 14:58:16
162.   JoeyP
Lackey's really good and there were 4 banjos in the lineup. When that happens, what else can you expect?
2006-07-02 14:58:38
163.   CanuckDodger
133 -- We all know that the Dodgers drafts were terrible for a lot of years before 2002, so of course we didn't even get back-of-the-rotation pitchers from those draft classes. The Dodgers' current execs can't be blamed for that, unless you count trading away Jackson as a bad move, which I do, but I can't argue that he looks ready for the majors this year, and he's a high-ceiling, high risk pitcher anyway. Not the polished, low-ceiling innings eater you say we should be producing without much effort. But you make your criticism on the day that Billingsley is pitching and looking like he has a few things to learn still, so that has to be interpreted as a comment on drafting a high-upside kid instead of a more polished guy. But when I look at a list of the first 10 four-year college pitchers drafted AFTER we drafted Billingsley in 2003, I notice that none of them are starting pitchers in the majors right now, and 9 of them aren't in the majors at all. If you are not saying drafting a Billingsley over a more polished guy is a mistake, then perhaps you can clarify.
2006-07-02 14:59:12
164.   Linkmeister
162 Er, the theme from "Deliverance?"
2006-07-02 15:05:09
165.   JoeyP
161. Since RBIs are really important to you, you do know that Drew is tied with Nomar for the team lead in RBIs?
2006-07-02 15:07:02
166.   thinkingblue
Lackey's really good and there were 4 banjos in the lineup. When that happens, what else can you expect?

The point is that JD Drew is the most overrated player in baseball.
2006-07-02 15:07:25
167.   natepurcell

thats because he bats 4th. What are our hitters VORPs?

2006-07-02 15:08:42
168.   bhsportsguy
133 Sample of starters produced by their own system:

Padres 2
Giants 2
Arizona 2
Rockies 3
Dodgers 1

But before you start yelling.
Cardinals 0
Mets 1
White Sox 1
Red Sox 2 (Jon Lester)
Yankees 1
Angels 2 (Jered)

Its true that the Dodgers have not done a great job in producing pitchers but that is a industry wide problem, I will say that injuries and changing starters to relivers (Miller, Kuo, Orenduff, and Broxton) have set back the impact that these guys could have on the rotation.

2006-07-02 15:10:08
169.   JoeyP
How can Drew be overrated if everyone hates him?
2006-07-02 15:11:25
170.   Bob Timmermann
By what measure do you gauge "overratedness"?

It seems like you're using your own perception of Drew, imposing it on everyone else, and then determining that it's far higher than it merits.

If I can do this, I dub Jerry Hairston, Jr. the most overrated player in baseball. Why? Because I have so declared it!

2006-07-02 15:12:07
171.   thinkingblue
Since RBIs are really important to you, you do know that Drew is tied with Nomar for the team lead in RBIs?

Another AB with a RISP, another K for JD OVERRATED Drew.

2006-07-02 15:12:19
172.   natepurcell
Why am I listening to the Angels telecast?
2006-07-02 15:12:49
173.   Bob Timmermann

Ahh, but let's wait to see how Jerry Hairston does tonight against the Astros!

2006-07-02 15:13:08
174.   JoeyP
Maybe Midas will trade him to the D-Rays?
2006-07-02 15:13:28
175.   Bob Timmermann

Hey, this is baseball chat, not existentialist chat.

2006-07-02 15:14:07
176.   herman
Drew's striking out.
2006-07-02 15:14:27
177.   D4P
Raise your hand if you predicted this:

DJ: .835
Lucille II: .838

2006-07-02 15:14:42
178.   bhsportsguy
If A-Rod cam get booed, than no one is safe.
2006-07-02 15:15:57
179.   JoeyP
K-Rod must be filthy today.
He's getting some awful swings on gameday.
2006-07-02 15:16:23
180.   JoeyP
Ethier got a golden sombrero.
2006-07-02 15:16:33
181.   Bob Timmermann
Giants roll a 5 in the eighth in San Diego and lead 6-2.
2006-07-02 15:18:26
182.   Marty
I saw a guy named Aaron whiff 4 times once.
2006-07-02 15:18:35
183.   StolenMonkey86
Wow, did the Dodgers play with their eyes closed today? I mean, 15 K's! This is John Lackey, not Roger Clemens.

I'm glad I took a nap instead of hurt myself by watching gameday.

2006-07-02 15:19:30
184.   bhsportsguy
Certainly the Angels needed these 2 games, combined with the A's being swept by the D-Backs (why is it we seem to face teams as they are getting hot), this will be a big week for them.

Facing Soriano, Santana and Lackey when they are on the top of their game makes for a tough week but as we now hit the midway part at 41-40 and since Izzy coming back the team is 5-5 so you have to ask yourself what lineup changes do you see.

2006-07-02 15:21:42
185.   JoeyP
Well, we do get to play the Pirates again.
2006-07-02 15:22:48
186.   herman
I am so frustrated.
2006-07-02 15:23:16
187.   underdog
Today I suddenly remembered that Ethier and Kemp are, in fact, rookies. It's a sign of how well they've done overall that it's easy to "forget" - but today they looked overmatched. Granted, against some really solid pitching, and K-Rod is often unhittable by many veterans.

Still, with the mostly somnambulent offense, porous defense (Rafael Saxcal made a horrible throw today that can only be added to the stack of them from yesterday) - overall the pitching this weekend was okay, actually - but a very forgettable two days not just for them but most of the Dodgers and mostly I'm glad this week in baseball is over.

Btw, speaking of horrible things, I watched an episode of Mystery Science Theater this weekend that featured one of the most laughably awful films I've ever seen - Hobgoblins. Must be seen to be believed.

2006-07-02 15:24:34
188.   underdog
Can we do tag-team at one position, like people sometimes do in casual softball games - have Izturis field 3B and have Aybar hit for him each inning? That would be perfect.
2006-07-02 15:26:22
189.   herman
Aybar should hit for both Izturis and Furcal.
2006-07-02 15:27:11
190.   Gen3Blue
Wow, announcers at two diff. places are making this a story about how th ang's pitching took our rookies to school ie. all the strike-outs by Martin, Ethier, and Kemp. But if that was the true story, Garc., Drew and Kent would have countered.
Nes Pa?
2006-07-02 15:29:30
191.   thinkingblue
By what measure do you gauge "overratedness"?

Everyone likes to call him one of the best outfielders in the game, but he is thouroughly average.

He is overrated, because we're paying him like he is a top outfielder, but I can think of many better outfielders.

Matt Holiday
Brian Giles
Manny Ramirez
Nick Swisher
Brad Hawpe
Jason Bay
Andruw Jones
Jermaine Dye
Vernon Wells
Alex Rios
Carl Crawford

And so on. Most of those are being paid less than Drew. That's one reason I think Drew is overrated.

2006-07-02 15:31:43
192.   Bob Timmermann

Kent would likely be quick to tell you that he didn't strike out today.

2006-07-02 15:32:03
193.   King of the Hobos
191 Most of those also haven't reached free agency, where they will likely make similar money as Drew.
2006-07-02 15:32:56
194.   Gen3Blue
The schedule coming up doesn't look terrible, and we will probably have a reversal of luck soon, and look great.
2006-07-02 15:33:02
195.   herman
Bring up Loney and move Nomar to third. What do you guys think?
2006-07-02 15:33:25
196.   thinkingblue
Heck, even Magglio Ordonez, and Gary Matthews Jr (higher OPS), and Curtis Granderson (higher OPS), are better than Drew so far.
2006-07-02 15:34:01
197.   Bob Timmermann

Your original phrase was "most overrated." You have the burden of proof of showing that there are no other players who are not as overrated.

And your original statement was not limited to outfielders.

It would just be easier to say "I don't think JD Drew is as good as people say he is" instead of tossing out more easily refutable statements.

2006-07-02 15:34:16
198.   Gen3Blue
192 Yeah, thats true but I have a hard time getting this strategy.
2006-07-02 15:40:03
199.   StolenMonkey86
Could we offer JD Drew for Adrian Beltre? The Mariners have two really good outfielders, and probably wouldn't mind a third. The salary commitments are similar too.

Then we can do one of three things:
1) trade Izturis for a SP
2) trade Furcal for an overpaid SP
3) trade Kent to the Yankees for the last young guy in the organization

2006-07-02 15:40:42
200.   StolenMonkey86
199 - Well, at least a third decent outfielder.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2006-07-02 15:41:58
201.   blue22
So long as Neifi Perez is still holding down a big league job, the position of "most overrated" is filled.

Please have Mr. Drew leave his resume, and we will contact him when the position becomes available.

2006-07-02 15:43:10
202.   D4P
If Drew is "thoroughly average," what kind of other "thoroughly average" players would you trade him for?
2006-07-02 15:44:29
203.   Steve
What is Cuban Missile Crisis's position on this overrated list? Actually, the top 15 positions on this list would probably belong to various "closers."


"James" "Lo" "Ney"
"James" "Lo" "Ney"

2006-07-02 15:45:31
204.   blue22
203 - Actually, the top 15 positions on this list would probably belong to various "closers."

Or members of the Chicago Cubs.

2006-07-02 15:48:15
205.   thinkblue0

it's time to be logical here. JD hasn't been playing all that great lately, but to say he's a bad baseball player is just plain wrong and there's nothing to back that up.

We'd all like his numbers to be a little higher, but there's still half a season left.

I just find it ironic that you hate Drew and Furcal so much yet support The Human Out Machine Cesar Izturis. It just doesn't make much sense. Also, the majority of the players you listed there make less than Drew because they haven't hit free agency yet.

Is Drew overpaid? Probably. Is he a BAD player? Certainly not. Okay, I just felt like being Jim Tracy there.

Oh, one last thing...the whole thing about having 45 mill tied up in nothing...that argument can be used the other way too with guys like Mueller, Tomko, Lofton, Baez, Carter, Hall, Hendrickson and the list goes on.

It's one thing to think Drew isn't as good as you think he should be, but to insinuate that he and Furcal are bad players is just ridiculous.

2006-07-02 15:49:24
206.   JoeyP
What could a team carrying Furcal/Lofton/Izturis in the lineup gain from trading JD Drew?
2006-07-02 15:50:06
207.   Bob Timmermann
There could be comedic value.
2006-07-02 15:51:14
208.   JoeyP
I was thinking a higher draft pick, but yours works also.
2006-07-02 15:51:49
209.   D4P
a team carrying Furcal/Lofton/Izturis in the lineup

Lucille II: "Don't forget me!"

2006-07-02 15:52:55
210.   Steve
Absolutely critical reading. Unsurprisingly, not on the sports page. Unsurprisingly, far more intersting than anything that would be or will be found on the sports page. Unsurprisingly, several lessons that are applicable for silly people that trade for Devil Rays.

2006-07-02 15:54:21
211.   natepurcell

draft next year is pretty deep.

2006-07-02 15:56:44
212.   Steve
204 -- But that gets us back to the problem I think Bob was getting at earlier, which is that just because Jim Hendry and Dusty Baker (or in our fable, Paul DePodesta) overrates someone obscenely doesn't mean they are the "most overrated." I mean, Grabowski was the best man at DePodesta's wedding, but that doesn't make him overrated in baseball. Everybody in baseball, if I understand correctly, hates JD Drew.
2006-07-02 16:03:57
213.   DXMachina
212 - But do they hate him more than they hate A.J. Pierzynski?
2006-07-02 16:06:17
214.   Steve
Let's hope not. One of the reasons we so celebrate our independence is the freedom to hate AJ Pierzynski.
2006-07-02 16:07:28
215.   D4P
Official Hating Rating:

1. Kent
2. Bonds
3. Clemens
3. Pierzynski
4. Drew
5. Giambi

2006-07-02 16:11:50
216.   natepurcell
I cant believe Brad Penny made the all star team.
2006-07-02 16:16:15
217.   King of the Hobos
216 He is the only Dodger to make it. Contrary to the store leak, Nomar did not make the all star team (each teams site has their selected players announced already). Dan Uggla made it, have any other Rule 5 players made it in their rookie year?
2006-07-02 16:19:09
218.   JoeyP
Maybe Nomar will get voted in as most deserving guy that was passed over?

Are they still doing that this year?

2006-07-02 16:20:34
219.   King of the Hobos
The White Sox and Mets both had 6 players selected to the all star game, while the Yankees and Red Sox had 4 each. The Blue Jays had 5, which surprises me. The White Sox, Red Sox, Yankees, and Blue Jays have a combined 19 players going to the midsummer classic. The other 10 AL teams have 12 players (unincluding the 32nd man, yet to be determined)
2006-07-02 16:22:44
220.   King of the Hobos
218 Yes, they still do that, but he will likely be competing against Derrick Lee and Carlos Delgado for that last spot.
2006-07-02 16:23:35
221.   natepurcell
Nomar should have mnade it. How does the NL leading batter not make the all star team? so should saito. seriously.
2006-07-02 16:23:50
222.   King of the Hobos
Flanders next target: All Star Mark Redman.
2006-07-02 16:25:00
223.   D4P
The All-Star game is not worthy of attention.
2006-07-02 16:30:09
224.   natepurcell
how does Beckett make the all star team?
2006-07-02 16:35:01
225.   JoeyP
Dodgers are in 4th place.
1.5 back.
2006-07-02 16:35:31
226.   CanuckDodger
Johnson the Younger is on the mound today for Ogden and may not be out of the game yet, but so far he has pitched five scoreless innings. So far his season stats are as follows:

15.1 IP, 9 H's, 2BB's, 24 K's, 2.35 ERA

Johnson wasn't drafted this year so he isn't coming directly out of high school, but since he was drafted as a 17-year-old, he is the same age now as most high schoolers drafted this year. His performance is absolutely amazing for an 18-year-old pitcher in a big time hitter's league filled with college hitters. Johnson the Younger is probably the most polished high school pitcher Logan White has drafted in five years, but his ceiling may not be too high.

2006-07-02 16:35:34
227.   Uncle Miltie
216- why? I can't believe that Mark Redman made it in the AL. Brett Tomko has been better than him!
2006-07-02 16:37:31
228.   King of the Hobos
224 According to Boston's website, he didn't. Only Manny, Ortiz, Papelbon, and Loretta.
2006-07-02 16:39:13
229.   natepurcell

Steve Johnson might be that solid middle of the rotation starter Dsfan has been begging the dodgers produce. :)

2006-07-02 16:39:45
230.   natepurcell
ridiculous today

6IP 3H 0er 1bb 9k

18 yrs old.

2006-07-02 16:42:40
231.   JoeyP
How can you leave Francisco Liriano off the team?

Does the AL really need 8 Of'ers?

Liriano should have made it over Gary Mathews Jr.

NL looks about right except for Uggla making it over Nomar. Its an All-Star game. I'm sure Nomar could play 2nd. That, and the Mets fans stuffing the All-Star ballots really is disheartening. The Dodgers have had great attendance. Do LA fans just not vote?

2006-07-02 16:44:09
232.   JoeyP
Here's are the rosters for both teams:

2006-07-02 16:49:02
233.   King of the Hobos
Our rookie league pitching looks like it will really help improve the pitching depth in a few years. Kershaw, Johnson, Morris, Wall, Castillo, Smit, and hopefully Alex White should produce some nice ML pitchers in a few years, as long as they can avoid TINSTAAPP.
2006-07-02 16:50:02
234.   natepurcell
I just traded Izturis to the Red Sox.

Izturis and Brian Akin for Clay Buchholz, Jermaine Van Buren and Craig Breslow.

2006-07-02 16:50:39
235.   Linkmeister
210 "It is these unknowns that obliterate the ability to foretell..."

When did Rumsfeld begin moonlighting doing movie industry analysis?

2006-07-02 16:50:40
236.   CanuckDodger
When the Jacksonville Suns needed an emergency fill-in on the pitching staff earlier in the season, the Dodgers sent Johnson the Younger. On the team bus, minor league vet Craig Brazell (age 28) asked Johnson where he played last year. "The GCL", Johnson answers. Brazell was astonished, saying he played there ten years ago, and when he found out Johnson's age, he noted that when he himself was in the GCL Johnson was only 8-years-old. That just has to make a career minor leaguer want to cry.
2006-07-02 16:51:46
237.   CanuckDodger
When the Jacksonville Suns needed an emergency fill-in on the pitching staff earlier in the season, the Dodgers sent Johnson the Younger. On the team bus, minor league vet Craig Brazell (age 28) asked Johnson where he played last year. "The GCL", Johnson answers. Brazell was astonished, saying he played there ten years ago, and when he found out Johnson's age, he noted that when he himself was in the GCL Johnson was only 8-years-old. That just has to make a career minor leaguer want to cry.
2006-07-02 16:54:27
238.   natepurcell
thoughts on my deal!?!?!
2006-07-02 16:56:40
239.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Johnson the Younger is probably the most polished high school pitcher Logan White has drafted in five years, but his ceiling may not be too high.

What's the word on him? Does he not have plus pitches, but right now only succeeds with great control, which won't do him as much good against better competition?


2006-07-02 16:57:49
240.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 237

How much does a AA player make, anyhow? Is it enough of a salary to actually live on for a year?


2006-07-02 17:04:34
241.   King of the Hobos
240 According to a preseason article on Eric Langill, a 26 year old career minor league backup catcher, he has never made more than $12,000 during a season (he received a $8,000 signing bonus when drafted).
2006-07-02 17:05:29
242.   CanuckDodger
234 -- Great trade, Nate. I like Buchholz, mostly because he's named "Buchholz." Van Buren has potential in the bullpen. Have you made any other trades?
2006-07-02 17:09:29
243.   CanuckDodger
239 -- Johnson the Younger's fastball is only 90-91, mostly 90, and at 6'1, 185 he not not likely to gain much more strength. He has a plus curve and two other pitches, and moves the ball around in the strike zone like a vet. His dad was a big league pitcher, so he has learned all the tricks.
2006-07-02 17:09:34
244.   gpellamjr
Berkman made the All-Star team over Nomar?? Wow. I have lost faith in the undemocratic process. I don't believe in democracy anymore, now I can't believe in authoritarian arbitrarity. What's left for a wannabe idealogue? This is a sad day for me.
2006-07-02 17:11:59
245.   underdog
Just a reminder before we get too upset about Nomar not making the all-star game, as just noted, he can still make it:

Garciaparra is the first Dodger to be among the five candidates in the All-Star Final Vote, competing with Bobby Abreu (Philadelphia), Chris Capuano (Milwaukee), Billy Wagner (New York) and Chris Young (San Diego) for the final roster spot on the National League team.

Please vote, and tell your friends to vote, for Nomar as the final member of the NL squad. When you look at the other guys in that company, all solid, but only Abreu should give Nomar any competition. SHOULD. Assuming the mets fans don't stuff the ballot boxes again. Please vote as soon as voting is open.

2006-07-02 17:14:59
246.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 241


If I'm 28 and still in AA ball, that's a sign to pack my bags and try my hand at something else. Reminds me of stories of Jim Tracy's day as a newspaper delivery man and some kind of advertising-related salesman after his playing days ended, and before he got into managing.


2006-07-02 17:15:35
247.   3upn3down
Vote for Nomar! One last shot to get him on the All Star Squad at
2006-07-02 17:16:34
248.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 243

Thanks, Canuck....


2006-07-02 17:23:40
249.   King of the Hobos
246 The article also mentions that Langill shovels snow for a living back in Quebec and he has a weekly radio segment in its second season.

2006-07-02 17:25:34
250.   underdog
Oops, yeah, I didn't realize that last man all star vote thing was already up - you can vote multiple times, too.

(I voted for Verlander in the AL, at least the first time.)

Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2006-07-02 17:30:53
251.   Steve
Actually, the top 15 positions on this list would probably belong to various "closers."

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you Derrick Turnbow.

2006-07-02 18:02:57
252.   D4P
I give you Derrick Turnbow

No no, I really can't accept...

2006-07-02 18:06:30
253.   natepurcell

So far, Ive made 3 trades, and probably now, just looking for minor trades, bullpen help etc, unless a player is on the market that previously wasn't.

first trade:

Dodgers trade Odalis Perez+2million to the Mets for 1b Brett Harper. Harper will be sent to AA.

reason I did this trade: Odalis sucks and his contract will hamper my flexibilty in the offseason. Not to mention his attitude is pisspoor. This trade wasn't about getting talent back but rather unloading his contract. 1b Brett Harper isn't anything special although I suppose he could possibly become a Travis Hafner type late bloomer. His power is intriging and we are short on 1b depth in the org so why not right?

Trade #2

Dodgers trade OF Joel Guzman and OF Justin Ruggiano to the Pirates for LHP SP Tom Gorzelanny.

Guzman was hard to trade away because I know full well his massive offensive potential but I really, reallllly like Gorzelanny. I think he is one of the most underrated pitching prospects in baseball right now and he has produced at every level to go along with fantastic stuff. his fb ranges from 89-96, sitting int he 91-93 range with good sink. he has a plus slider he uses as his out pitch and a solid overall change up. His command is very good and is mlb ready right now. After dumping Odalis, Gorzey will take his spot and I have given Little the decision on what to do with him. But overall, his ceiling as a #2 type pitcher, left handed also, is something this team needs.

Trade #3

Dodgers trade Cesar Izturis and reliever RHP Brian Akin to the Red Sox for RHP Clay Buchholz, relievers RHP Jermaine Van Buren and LHP Craig Breslow

I am actually astounded I got a high ceiling arm back from Izturis. I actually asked for Bowden and he countered with Buchholz and we mixed and match the remainding players in the deal. Buccholz is a high ceiling arm with good growth potential still. He hasn't really been challeneged this year pitching in Low A so we are going to bump him up to High A Vero Beach and see how he responds. If he does well, We will probably fasttrack him to AA jacksonville next year where he can join a rotation that consists of Blake Johnson and Scott Elbert. Buccholz just gives us another high ceiling arm to fight the battle war against TINSTAPP.
The two relievers are having good years at AAA pawtucket, both are 25/26 and both have solid K:bb ratios. thats basically what i was looking at. I dont have much a scouting report on either except I know Van Buren has pretty good stuff actually, 90-93mph fb with a plus slider. We need bullpen help so why not, maybe one of them will work out. Both will be sent to AAA las vegas as insurance.

Not to brag or anything but this is what the White Sox GM said after this last trade:
npurcell is a god amongst men. As a Dodger fan, please take over the front office now.


2006-07-02 18:13:30
254.   D4P
All of which just adds credence to my ongoing claim that anyone (yes, anyone) can be a GM. Anyone can make trades and sign free agents. I don't see what the big deal is. And (as teams like Pittsburgh and others demonstrate) it doesn't even matter if your team wins. If some of those morons can do it, I see no reason why someone like Nate can't.
2006-07-02 18:15:40
255.   DXMachina
253 - Poor Breslow. He finally gets to play near where he grew up, and he gets traded back to California. :)
2006-07-02 18:28:51
256.   Steve
What does the Tampa bay GM want for Tyler Walker?
2006-07-02 18:29:16
257.   regfairfield
How the heck does Travis Hafner not make the All Star team?
2006-07-02 18:35:07
258.   regfairfield
254 Do you really think Bill Plaschke could be a GM?

Heck, I wouldn't be a very good GM, just ask my fantasy league. I can say if something is a good or bad move, but when it comes to actually making the moves, I'm pretty terrible.

2006-07-02 18:35:14
259.   Steve
How abut Loney for Ryan Dempster? That would at least carry the advantage of being highly amusing.
2006-07-02 18:35:21
260.   natepurcell

Im not Colletti, I don't ask around about the Tyler Walkers of the world.

2006-07-02 18:36:15
261.   Sam DC
254 I don't know about anyone, but Nate, sure. (Although I'm taken to understand that he uses a computer from time to time.)
2006-07-02 18:47:09
262.   Steve
It seems selfevident that anyone can call Tampa bay and trade for their crap. But can "anyone" GM well? That would seem to be harder to establish. Not impossible. Just harder.
2006-07-02 18:49:22
263.   Sam DC
Well, I made it to the Rays/Nats game today. A bit of a loser's dividend has already settled over RFK. Lines getting more manageable (95 degree heat may have contributed to that); crowd in decent spirits, except when they booed Brian Schneider for allegedly not running out a dropped third strike, which booing irked me a good deal. Old guy behind me was keeping score in a beatiful leather notebook. Said he had 15 years of Senators games and all the Nationals games so far in it.

Not gonna offer much of a game report because it wasn't much of a game what with the four tampa bay errors (actually should have been five, but for a friendly ruling on a long hit by Nick Johnson).

Navarro had a rough day, 0-4, 4 men LOB. And he had a rough error -- wild pitch with runners on 2nd and 3rd. He ran it down and tried to scoop the ball back behind me to the plate to get the runner coming in from third , but it sailed into no-man's land allowing the runner from second (the pitcher who had reached on, wait for it, an error) to score as well. Seo was eh.

Always an adventure taking two small kids to the park by yourself (5 yr old, and 16 months). The bigger is getting so he can help out/be flexible, etc., but ain't there yet. Esp. in 95 degree heat. But good fun was had by all. For whatever reason, my bigger had decided on the way there he wanted to see a double play. Got one in the eighth (thank the stars). Walked home, which is really a joy.

2006-07-02 18:51:57
264.   Uncle Miltie
Joe Torre is the anti Jim Tracy. That was a quick hook.

Jose Reyes is not a banjo hitter...

2006-07-02 19:00:34
265.   Vishal
[234] to be hereafter referred to as the clay/akin trade?
2006-07-02 19:00:53
266.   Sam DC
Funny -- Navarro was trying to scoop the ball back behind him. If he was trying to get it behind me (into row 40 or so), that would've been more than rough.
2006-07-02 19:06:18
267.   natepurcell

haha, i never even thought of that. haha.

2006-07-02 19:15:24
268.   natepurcell
what was the gun reading on billingsley's fastballs today? how many swings and misses?
2006-07-02 19:16:11
269.   thinkingblue
I just find it ironic that you hate Drew and Furcal so much yet support The Human Out Machine Cesar Izturis. It just doesn't make much sense. Also, the majority of the players you listed there make less than Drew because they haven't hit free agency yet.

Perhaps many haven't hit free agency, but I never said that I am supportive of Izzy. I said that he can't be worse than Aybar, but he is proving me wrong right now.

And I never said Drew was a bad ball player, but he is overrated. Drew is also batting .200 in late inning situations.

2006-07-02 19:29:43
270.   Bob Timmermann

I don't remember the speed on Billingsley's pitches, but I think it was pretty high. There were lots of swings and misses today.

By both teams. Lackey's curve was making everyone look silly. Billingsley's slightly less silly.

2006-07-02 19:31:07
271.   natepurcell
Thanks Bob.

By the way, did people ever call you "Bobby" when you were younger?

2006-07-02 19:34:24
272.   Bob Timmermann

From earlier today:

"166. thinkingblue
Lackey's really good and there were 4 banjos in the lineup. When that happens, what else can you expect?

The point is that JD Drew is the most overrated player in baseball."

You started off with a very sweeping statement.

2006-07-02 19:35:25
273.   Vishal
this sentence by stephen metcalf in slate is pure gold. it's regarding isiah thomas, but there's a side commentary going on that hits the nail on the head. steve will like this sentence:

"Were it only a question of incompetence, of being yet another recyclable in the hermetic ecosystem of bad managerial talent that is pro sports, Isiah would not inspire anything like the enmity he does."

2006-07-02 19:36:10
274.   Bob Timmermann

No. And if you call me that, I will put you on one of my lists.

2006-07-02 19:36:59
275.   D4P
Do you really think Bill Plaschke could be a GM? Heck, I wouldn't be a very good GM

I didn't say anyone can be a good GM, just that anyone can actually make trades and sign players. But there doesn't seem to be any requirement that those transactions work out in your team's favor. I mean, is Bowden a good GM? Is Littlefield?

2006-07-02 19:41:09
276.   thinkblue0
Perhaps many haven't hit free agency, but I never said that I am supportive of Izzy.

The fact that many haven't hit free agency makes the argument over what he's paid null and void.

Also, I recall numerous occasions where you've said Izzy is a very good player and should be in the lineup...I guess I could be wrong.

And I never said Drew was a bad ball player, but he is overrated.

No, but you insinuated he was a bad ball player when you included him in your list of salaries we're getting nothing out of. Basically, you were saying he's worthless.

I said that he can't be worse than Aybar, but he is proving me wrong right now.

Aybar is a really nice prospect...if you can't see that then so be it. The fact of the matter is that Izturis is god awful at the reason not to put the bat in the hands of Aybar to see what he can do on a daily basis...

On a side note to everyone else, I know none of us want to trade for middle relief...but I would honestly dump Izzy on ANY team that would give us a half decent middle reliever back. Just getting that guy out of our lineup would be addition by subtraction.

Also, what's the latest on Weaver?

2006-07-02 19:45:45
277.   natepurcell
i just watched billingsleys 6 innings and I thought he did a solid job actually. His stuff was working and even though he had 4bbs, it looked like he had better command and control of his pitches. Good confidence building start even though he got the loss and bad defense behind him.
2006-07-02 19:52:19
278.   Bob Timmermann
Also, what's the latest on Weaver?

The Angels think Jered has a promising future.

2006-07-02 19:53:35
279.   Bob Timmermann

You left out the part about how he should be sent to the minors because Cabrera stole home.

That was a major theme earlier.

2006-07-02 19:54:48
280.   D4P
By the way, did people ever call you "Bobby" when you were younger?

What about "Timmy"?

And did you learn anything at the convention?

2006-07-02 19:57:07
281.   Bob Timmermann

Nobody called me that either.

I have posts about the convention on the Griddle.

As for the steal of home, this was in the AP story:

Dodgers catcher Russell Martin said that wouldn't happen again because Billingsley will pitch from the stretch position in the future with a runner at third.

"When he goes into his windup, he has this routine where he steps back and looks down," Martin said. "I guess Cabrera picked it up because as soon as he put his head down, Cabrera took off. And by the time he picked his head up, Cabrera was already starting to slide. So we didn't really have a chance."

2006-07-02 20:03:27
282.   D4P
I have posts about the convention on the Griddle.

Yes, but I didn't glean whether you learned anything particularly eye-opening or whether it was mostly old-hat.

2006-07-02 20:05:36
283.   thinkingblue
Aybar is a really nice prospect...if you can't see that then so be it. The fact of the matter is that Izturis is god awful at the reason not to put the bat in the hands of Aybar to see what he can do on a daily basis...

Aybar is an average prospect, while he is better than Izzy, he sometimes hits for average, and has little power.

If anything, I'd rather have LaRoche if he was healthy. I'm just not an Aybar fan-though he is better than Izzy offensively.

2006-07-02 20:05:46
284.   Jon Weisman
When I got home from the day's jaunts to read the comments after the game, I was surprised by the harsh reaction toward Billingsley regarding the steal of home. It was one play, and no single play, short of a felony, calls for sending a guy down. Chad will learn from it, obviously.

And also, no one commented that Guerrero was at the plate. Though obviously this went to extremes, there was every reason to think that Chad was just focused on the batter, which in general is the right idea. Like the Spanish Inquisition, no one expects the steal of home.

The way I see it, Cabrera made a good play. Chad will learn. Life goes on.

2006-07-02 20:08:06
285.   Bob Timmermann
I learned that Seattle is very steep in places.

I learned that people from the East Coast find the West Coast to be a strange and foreboding place and we're baffled why people in Seattle waited for the light to change before crossing the street.

I learned that Mike Piazza apparently is very good at blocking pitches, but the skill of blocking pitches isn't a very big part of a catcher's effect on a game.

2006-07-02 20:11:54
286.   Sam DC
"we're baffled." Hmmmm.

Anyone know anything about this guy I can pass along to the Nationals fans and look smart (or at least, look like I hang around with smart people):

"The Nationals agreed to terms with shortstop Esmailyn Gonzalez of the Dominican Republic on Sunday. The switch-hitting Gonzalez, 16, will earn a $1.4 million signing bonus and report to the Dominican Summer League Nationals this week."

2006-07-02 20:12:57
287.   D4P
but the skill of blocking pitches isn't a very big part of a catcher's effect on a game.

On the contrary: without the catcher, every pitch not put in play would either nail the umpire or go to the backstop...

Did you like Seattle? It's near the top of our "Places we'd consider moving when I finish school" list. I haven't spent much time there, but I generally hear good things about it.

2006-07-02 20:24:54
288.   Bob Timmermann


I didn't see a whole lot of Seattle, but it's not a cheap place to live despite their being no state income tax.

I've been told that traffic is really bad.

Mike and I encountered quite a few guys who hadn't made it past 1971 it seemed.

"Man, let me tell you how to get to Safeco Field. Man, you walk down this street until you see something that looks like a sunken ship. You can't miss it, man."

We missed it. We found Safeco Field anyway since it's very large.

2006-07-02 20:27:36
289.   das411
Nate: Catcher Sal Fasano left Sunday's game after singling in the fourth inning, with inflammation in his left knee and is listed as day-to-day. He said he hurt himself on a play at the plate, when he lunged awkwardly trying to tag Toronto's John McDonald. He joked that he'll spend Monday's off-day either relaxing or "in the doctor's office."

All: What's the general consensus on the All-Star Final Vote? I'm leaning towards voting Verlander and Young, although there is a lot of Nomar love here...

2006-07-02 20:30:35
290.   D4P
Yeah, the "not cheap" thing is a turnoff, but what big city worth living in is cheap these days?
2006-07-02 20:33:36
291.   dsfan

My comments about Dodgers failures on producing pitchers is directed at the franchise over the past eight years or so, irrespective of regimes. I'm open to what will come, but question how some unfavorable things appear to be recurring.

Chad B's struggles didn't inspire the remark. Variations on this theme have led me to post on the subject a few times. However, Bills probably would be better off if they had done a respectable job of producing decent Nos. 3-5 starters, say, a Lowry, a Jennings, a Lawrence (pre 2004), a Chacon, a Cook, a Russ Ortiz (pre 2005) -- all produced by teams in the NL West.

I'm not asking for the world here. Produce a decent guy or two who can give you some leverage and development time for the high upside guys and curtail the need for goose chases (Perez, Tomko, Hendrickson..) It's almost like No. 4 and 5 gets to be a pejorative with some folks. Sheez, it was Sele, of all people, wo bought Chad B an extra 4-6 weeks, which was a pretty big deal.

Just decent homegrown production in this area and it's reasonable to assume Bills would still be in Triple-A, which I believe would be more favorable to the kid. Right now, he's more thrower than pitcher. When that's the case and you're 21 and in the majors, it's a tough test for the arm and the psyche. Just ask Edwin Jackson, of whom way too much was asked in 2003, possibly to his long-term detriment.

2006-07-02 20:36:55
292.   CanuckDodger
284 -- Speak for yourself, Jon. I for one ALWAYS make a point of expecting the Spanish Inquisition.
2006-07-02 20:41:24
293.   regfairfield
289 I will hunt anyone down who doesn't vote for Travis Hafner, the best hitter in the AL and the MLB leader in VORP.

As for the NL, I went with Abreu due to his gigantic on base percentage.

2006-07-02 20:47:37
294.   Uncle Miltie
293- You voted for the Venezuelan God of Walks over Nomar?

Abreu .314
Nomar .340

Nomar > Abreu

2006-07-02 20:51:00
295.   caseybarker
I have three extra tickets for Wednesday's Dodger game. They were free to me, and they will be free to you who want them. I'll wait around for replies and post again tomorrow if neccessary.
2006-07-02 20:53:29
296.   blue22
Ironically enough, my family and I are in Portland right now checking it out as a possible relocation destination. It's nice.
2006-07-02 20:59:35
297.   D4P
Portland's a great city.
2006-07-02 21:01:11
298.   regfairfield
Nomar - 21.945
Abreu - 21.929

It's close, but I probably should have voted for Nomar. I got entranced by the gigantic amount of walks.

2006-07-02 21:02:33
299.   StolenMonkey86
I've got to go with Nomar, and for the AL it has to be Verlander or Liriano. I lean towards Liriano because he's a young lefty power pitcher, although both of them have been great on my fantasy team.
2006-07-02 21:05:42
300.   regfairfield
VABR after factoring in today:

Abreu - 23.446
Nomar - 21.944

Abreu wins!

Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2006-07-02 21:08:32
301.   regfairfield
299 While it shouldn't have to come down to not voting for the guy with a 1.99 ERA (good job there, Ozzie) Hafner leads the AL in OPS, and leads baseball in VORP. You can't leave the best hitter in the AL out of the All Star game.
2006-07-02 21:11:39
302.   Vishal
[295] man, i always miss out on the free tickets.
2006-07-02 21:13:43
303.   Vishal
seattle is awesome, kind of like a mini-san francisco (disclosure: san francisco is my favorite city in the world). if you're young it's a great place to be. portland is really nice but more of a place to settle down and raise kids. lots of buses in portland though; i've never seen so many buses per capita.
2006-07-02 21:16:24
304.   dsfan
When Aybar was sent down, my belief was that the Dodgers did the sensible thing, the best thing for Willy. The quality of the ABs disturbed me, an Aybar backer. It seemed Willy was in the midst of cratering as a hitter. At third, he was becoming a liability.
We'll never know, of course, what Aybar would have done had he stayed with the Dodgers. Here's what he has done offensively for Vegas:
Four hits in 32 at-bats for a .125 batting average. Eight reaches in 36 PAs for a .222 on-base percentage. Two home runs, one at home.

My conclusion is that both Willy and the Dodgers are better off that he's spent the last two weeks in Vegas.

2006-07-02 21:16:38
305.   D4P
We like to watch "House Hunters" on HGTV and saw an episode in West Seattle. The homes looked great. Historic "craftsmen" style in fantastic condition. And I if I remember correctly, they were in the $300k range, which, while not great, is still much less than in many other nice cities.
2006-07-02 21:17:27
306.   caseybarker
Vishal -- you, and anyone here, are welcome to one, or all, of these tickets. They are in section 48FD, box O, seats 6, 7, and 8.
2006-07-02 21:17:36
307.   CanuckDodger
291 -- I'm not sure the Dodgers are the type of organization to bring up guys from within the organization they think have ceilings as #4 or #5 starters, and I would say that is a problem. A Clay Hensley in the Dodgers' organization probably wouldn't even be given a shot. We have some guys kicking around the minors like T.J. Nall or Heath Totten that if given the ball in a major league game could very well do no worse than the Seo's and Hendrickson's of the world, and just might surprise us and do better. But we don't have the courage to do that, especially now. It would remind too many people in L.A. of relying on AAAA position players like Jason Grabowski and Mike Edwards last year. Unless he can sell the fans on a minor leaguer at least having the potential to be a future star, Colletti would rather stick to proven major leaguers, even if they are mediocre proven major leaguers.
2006-07-02 21:22:42
308.   Vishal
[306] i'm leaving town tomorrow, that's why i'm complaining :) thanks for the offer though!
2006-07-02 21:26:35
309.   Fallout
285 Bob Timmermann
..., but the skill of blocking pitches isn't a very big part of a catcher's effect on a game.

I'm surprised to read that from you. A catcher who is good at blocking pitches can really help a pitcher with a runner on 3rd.
He is freer to throw pitches in the dirt if he doesn't have to worry about a poor defensive catcher.

2006-07-02 21:31:02
310.   Fallout
I should say "for example".
2006-07-02 21:32:51
311.   blue22
they were in the $300k range, which, while not great, is still much less than in many other nice cities.

Best thing in Portland is that homes are in the $250-350K range, less than half than what I'm used to in Ventura County.

Did owning a home in a decent place used to be easier than this?

2006-07-02 21:33:05
312.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 307

I remember an article where DePo argued that a team should be constructed by stockpiling cheap league-average guys and saving the huge contracts for legitimate superstars. Unfortunately, his fliers on the likes of Grabowski and Edwards last season didn't work out, and there were just too many holes to fill.


2006-07-02 21:37:46
313.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 311

The housing market as a whole is probably going to level out. Low rates really drove values up in major metropolitan areas, and things have finally cooled off.

Strangely enough, though, I've seen reports indicating that as a percentage of income, Americans actually pay a smaller mortgage payment than they did in the 1980s, due to the fact that rates have been so low as of late, and that financing is so much more flexible now. Also, cheap housing can still be found in all sorts of places, but in an LA or DC or the Northeast, it's tough for a first-time homebuyer.

In Alhambra, where I grew up, it's almost absurd how expensive a starter home is now. If I had stayed there, I'd probably be still living with my folks to raise the necessary down payment--either, that, or be like my cousin and live in Victorville.


2006-07-02 21:37:53
314.   underdog
Well I voted multiple times and for Nomar each one (except one vote for Abreu, just for the hell of it) and Travis Hafner each time except Verlander once.

This from someone who cares little about the All Star game, except I like seeing the most deserving players make the game (and this year the vote winners were actually more solid than they often are, the Mets fans ballot stuffing notwithstanding).

I just hope to God that AJ Piz doesn't get the nod. Enough with the White Sox already.

2006-07-02 21:38:02
315.   natepurcell
Ive had discussions with the Houston Astros about Danys Baez and Kenny Lofton. They might be gone soon...
2006-07-02 21:39:17
316.   dsfan

We agree on the problem. We possibly disagree on the reasons for it. My guess, and it's only a guess, is that the Dodgers would have called up an unproven No. 4 starter if they believed he could do a decent job.
My sense is that this unfavorable cycle will continue, that they will continue to shop for the Hendricksons and Tomkos of the world, perhaps because they simply doubt the inventory in house. My belief is there are concrete ways to get better at growing the cheaper, younger, better No. 3-5 pitcher such as a Lowry or a Chacon, even a Hennessy -- there apprear to be aspects of process and system at work here, not just randomness and luck, although those are significant when it comes to producing pitchers.

2006-07-02 21:39:48
317.   Bob Timmermann
I didn't say it was my opinion.

You can read Sean Forman's work.

2006-07-02 21:42:46
318.   dsfan

That's one of the things that excited me about Depo. My expectation was that he would be more effective at finding good value on cheap pitchers, especially the Nos. 4-5 starters who could have given him more leverage.

2006-07-02 21:51:17
319.   Fallout
317 Bob Timmermann

So, you don't agree?

>>>You can read Sean Forman's work.<<<

Is there a test afterward?

2006-07-02 21:57:14
320.   underdog
The Dodgers should have a much more solid 1-5 rotation in a year (or two) when a few of there other pitching prospects are ready to contribute and with the options for signing (as opposed to trading for) someone like Barry Zito become more possible. Until then, and with the number of decent pitchers available to acquire this year extremely limited, I'd advise some patience and prepare for continued experimentation.

By the way, for the record, overall, except for a few mistakes, I was pretty impressed with Billingsley today. Seems like he's getting better and the adjustment they made in working with him this past week seemed to have helped. Just mho, but I predict his first W will come next game against the Giants.

Night all!

2006-07-02 21:57:42
321.   Bob Timmermann

So the series of events here is:
1. I give a brief conclusion from a very long work done by someone else
2. That idea is attributed to me.
3. Then you just come up with your own conclusion without reading the whole work.

2006-07-02 22:10:07
322.   CanuckDodger
316 -- I don't disagree that the Dodgers DON'T believe that guys like Nall and Totten could do a decent job, but I say that it may be their lack of faith in the ability of lower-ceiling players to patch holes in the organization that is ill-founded. The bottom line is, those players are there. Other teams turn those guys in Hensley's. We let them rot in the minors and make trades for "proven" players that might not be better than our own stock.
2006-07-02 22:10:25
323.   Fallout
1) I do not plan to read the whole work.
2) I just have simple question.
Do you agree with the following statement?

"the skill of blocking pitches isn't a very big part of a catcher's effect on a game."

2006-07-02 22:12:24
324.   Sushirabbit

That was cool. Thanks for givingn the link. I was supposed to get to bed early tonight! Now if we just had a retrosheet for comedy.....

2006-07-02 22:13:31
325.   herman
Casey I will take those tickets. How much do you want for them?
2006-07-02 22:14:38
326.   Sushirabbit
323 You can go to the link and spend at least a few minutes, right?

Perhaps what your missing is the implied: as compared with the rest of what a catcher does ...the skill of blocking pitches isn't a very big part of a catcher's effect on a game."

2006-07-02 22:18:39
327.   D4P
Just what is it, then, that a catcher does that is so much more important than blocking the ball?

1. One might say "Throwing out runners," but isn't it mostly up to the pitcher to prevent stolen bases?
2. One might say "Calling pitches," but isn't it ultimately up to the pitcher to decide which pitch to throw?
3. One might say "Providing a target." I suppose that's important.

2006-07-02 22:23:19
328.   caseybarker
325 -- Nothing. They were free to me. How do you want to arrange to pick them up?
2006-07-02 22:23:20
329.   Eric L
327 Not to sound snarky, but I honestly think that the catcher's most important job is to catch the balls he's supposed to catch.

Being able to block the ball is a desirable skill, but -

1). How often is it necessary for the catcher to block the ball during the course of the game?

2). When the catcher does need to block the ball, how often does it result in a runner getting an extra base?

2006-07-02 22:25:22
330.   Bob Timmermann

If ... you had read the whole thing. Or even skipped to the conclusion, you would have seen that Sean Forman's conclusion was that compared to other aspects of a catcher's defensive skills, such as preventing stolen bases, preventing wild pitches is about 1/4 as important.

According to Forman's paper, Ivan Rodriguez isn't nearly as good as Mike Piazza at blocking pitches, but Rodriguez is so superior in all other aspects of the game (he's allowed about half as many stolen bases as Piazza and thrown out more than Piazza) defensively, that Rodriguez is the superior defensive catcher overall.

2006-07-02 22:27:01
331.   D4P
I agree. I'm starting to think catchers aren't really all that important on defense. I mean, we're supposed to think that catchers don't really have much influence on pitchers' performance, right? Whenever we see pitchers' stats that are much better for one catcher than for another, we're supposed to chalk that up to chance, right?
2006-07-02 22:27:27
332.   caseybarker
330 -- too sciency for me (haha).
2006-07-02 22:32:38
333.   Eric L
331 This is going to sound so unsaberific of me that I should probably hand in my Paul Depodesta fan club membership card..

Is it possible that some guys just feel more comfortable with a certain catcher working with them? It's a basic idea that isn't easy to quantify with stats.

I'm not even sure if it is a real effect, but it could be.

2006-07-02 22:34:10
334.   Fallout
I think that it very important to have a catcher who can block pitches. There are things going on between the pitcher and catcher that are not seen and cannot be put into numbers. A pitcher will have more confidence and better results if he can trust his catcher to block pitches in the dirt. On the other hand if does not trust his catcher, the pitcher is more liable to throw a pitch that should be down out of the strike zone into something more hittable.
2006-07-02 22:40:07
335.   regfairfield
334 This is a problem.

1. Person one works incredibly hard, finds tons of evidence, and eventually reaches a conclusion that contradicts some theory x.

2. Person two says "psssh, everyone knows that theory x is true."

3. The baseball community listens to person two.

2006-07-02 22:43:06
336.   thinkingblue
Not to sound snarky, but I honestly think that the catcher's most important job is to catch the balls he's supposed to catch.

Being able to block the ball is a desirable skill, but -

1). How often is it necessary for the catcher to block the ball during the course of the game?

2). When the catcher does need to block the ball, how often does it result in a runner getting an extra base?

Not to sound unstatistical, but I think anyone with a mitt and a mask could catch the balls that you're supposed to catch, and if you can't catch the balls thrown right at you, you just shouldn't be a catcher.

Martin is great at blocking the baseball, and while, like stealing bases, it isn't a huge deal, it is a very nice ability.

Also, pitchers say that having a good blocker gives them the confidence to throw a breaking ball in the dirt with runners on, knowing the catcher will not let the ball get past him.

Whether this is ture or not, or if it really has a noticable effect on the game, is debatable I suppose. But, it is always better to have a reciever than a retriver.

2006-07-02 22:44:20
337.   caseybarker
Baseball players say very stupid things.
2006-07-02 22:45:26
338.   Fallout
330 Bob Timmermann

I appreciate the explanation and synopsis of Sean Forman's work. Thank you.

But, forget that for the time being.

Hey Bob, I have a question for you....:)

2006-07-02 22:48:22
339.   Eric L
334 Just another crazy theory...

Let's just assume (not always a great idea, I know)..

1) Most catchers in college and the minor leagues aren't as good as their major league counterparts.

2) Given 1, most pitchers have worked with a catcher that isn't exactly a great defender.

At some point, pitcher's probably learn to pitch their game regardless of the catcher's ability. A sinker ball pitcher in college or in the minors still has to throw his sinker to be effective.

2006-07-02 22:49:25
340.   Eric L
Not to sound unstatistical, but I think anyone with a mitt and a mask could catch the balls that you're supposed to catch, and if you can't catch the balls thrown right at you, you just shouldn't be a catcher.

That's sort of my point.

2006-07-02 22:50:07
341.   thinkingblue
Baseball players say very stupid things.

True, but wouldn't it make sense that a pitcher has more confidence to throw a breaking ball in the dirt with a better blocking catcher?

2006-07-02 22:51:46
342.   Eric L
340 I should add to my last post that just catching the balls is a lot harder than it looks.
2006-07-02 22:56:27
343.   thinkingblue
I should add to my last post that just catching the balls is a lot harder than it looks.

Yes, but any catcher can do it. If you mean that the most important thing is for the catcher to catch the ball the right way (frame the ball for the ump), then I understand what you mean.

2006-07-02 22:56:31
344.   caseybarker
Sure, but pitchers who complain about things like that strike me as being ill-suited to pitch. It's like when Kevin Brown complained that the reason he sucked is that too many balls got by the infield defense.
2006-07-02 23:00:17
345.   thinkingblue
It's like when Kevin Brown complained that the reason he sucked is that too many balls got by the infield defense.

Kevin Brown and Odalis Perez. Twins seperated at birth.

Sure, but pitchers who complain about things like that strike me as being ill-suited to pitch.

Well, I don't hear too many pitchers complain publically of a catchers inability to block the ball.

2006-07-02 23:09:28
346.   xaphor
341 Couldn't one argue that a pitcher might instead take liberties with a great blocking catcher and loose focus on his control leading to higher walk rates.
2006-07-02 23:11:29
347.   Steve
This sounds like the same stuff in a different format. At the end of the day, blocking pitches isn't very important because the threshold event is whether the player at the plate gets on base in the first place. Once he's there, the extra bases he gets don't matter as much, or at all.
2006-07-02 23:12:29
348.   Eric L
346 Aside from my contributions, I kind of think without evidence (and I'm just as guilty of posting anectdotal things) that this is kind of a circular discussion.
2006-07-02 23:17:17
349.   xaphor
Steve should check out Cricket. Two "bases" remove most of the complexities that baseball heeds so much unnecessary attention.
2006-07-02 23:22:27
350.   Steve
I forgot to ask yesterday -- why did Sele come in in relief? He's not out of the rotation, is he? Did we skip his spot or are we really going to see FTOGS again or what's the deal with that?
Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2006-07-02 23:28:26
351.   ddger
350 I was puzzled by that move too especially since Sele pitched great his last time out. Maybe, the management wanted to justify the trade so Sele was pushed back or skipped over.

Also, I didn't quite understand why Kuo with his wildness was brought in with bases loaded. What did Grittle expect other than a bases loaded walk. Grittle sure didn't help Kuo's confidence any by putting him in a position to fail.

2006-07-02 23:30:24
352.   natepurcell
Twins GM has been putting out these little feelers on Laroche. Should I just tell him Liriano or bust?
2006-07-02 23:32:20
353.   Steve
352 -- Tell him no. Nothing wrong with no. Or tell him that you're waiting for Tampa Bay to offer you Shawn Camp and Travis Harper.
2006-07-02 23:34:55
354.   natepurcell

Actually I am going to lead him on. Why? Because its 1130 and Im bored. I have no real intention of trading Laroche but he doesn't know that.

2006-07-02 23:35:32
355.   ddger
Nate, these runnig trade scenarios are really fun to read but where do you get these possibilities. Are you just making them up, if you are they sure seem TOO logical for real GMs to pull off.
2006-07-02 23:39:07
356.   xaphor
If we throw in JtD do you think we could get Hunter :)
2006-07-02 23:42:07
357.   natepurcell

JtD is no longer a Dodger. Went to the Pirates in a package for Tom Gorzelanny.


Where do i get these possibilites? What do you mean? Basically the other GM puts feelers out, or I put feelers out. Scan the market, sees whos available, see which GM is a moron, see which are stubborn. Talk a bit, offer a proposal and work from there. If I cant or they cant agree on equal value I move on.

2006-07-02 23:42:48
358.   natepurcell
also to 356

Hes trying to offer me Hunter but I have no interest in Hunter.

2006-07-02 23:46:16
359.   regfairfield
Okay, here's my theory on the whole thing, keeping in mind I couldn't read the article because I couldn't actually find it. (Sad, isn't it).

Catching a ball is the most important thing a catcher can do. If a catcher missed every pitch, there's no way you could ever win a game.

With that in mind, anyone who is catching in the majors has at least a decent range of motion can can grab any ball that is thrown somewhere near him. We'll call this area a CA.

Since every catcher is at least reasonably adept at catching balls, and a human can only move so far in .3 seconds, the difference between the best and worst CAs really isn't that much.

Therefore, the only relevant situation is when a ball is inside a catcher's CA, and outside of another catchers. Since this is a relatively small area, this scenario occurs very few times a game.

When this does occur, there has to be runners on base for it to matter. Even then, they still might not actually score. Consequently, a catchers range comes into play very few times a game. Compare this to stealing a base, which is relevant any time there is a man on. The skill just is useful in far more scenarios.

It's not that being able to catch the ball isn't important, it's just that it's very hard to be so much better than someone else that it effects the game to the same extent of being able to throw out runners.

2006-07-02 23:47:33
360.   regfairfield
355 Nate is doing this for
2006-07-02 23:50:42
361.   natepurcell

Ohh! thats what you meant! Yea, this is for the Trade deadline Simulation.

There is a GM for each team and we basically try to make our rosters better. There is a commish and stuff. We do all of this on an off message board so we dont clutter up

Its been really fun. Gives me something to do besides work and DT.

This chump wont even offer Garza for Laroche. He's cut.

2006-07-02 23:55:42
362.   ddger
Maybe, Ned should hire Nate as a trade consultant. Then he'll make better trades? :)
2006-07-02 23:56:01
363.   xaphor
Are you just going to evaluate the players and prospects amassed at the end of the year or is this for the long term.
2006-07-03 00:01:39
364.   natepurcell

I think the original goal was to see how you did compared to how your team does in reality. Our trade deadline is 5 days or a week before the real trade deadline. Who knows though, they might make this an ongoing thing which IMO, would be pretty awesome.

Anyways right now, I am trying to act in the best interest of the Dodgers. I havent decided if Im going to buy significantly yet, or sell significantly. the moves Ive made have been just tinkering with the hopeful thought of them helping us now but definately helping us in the future.

Just like the real Dodgers, Ive been searching for pitching left and right. I do have some players in mind that I do like and would like on this team, but we'll see if I can do that without not giving up too much :)

2006-07-03 00:11:41
365.   natepurcell
haha oh chad

"I didn't hear anything being said," Billingsley said afterward. " … The only thing I noticed when he got about five steps from home plate, I heard the crowd cheering. I was like, oh, well."

2006-07-03 00:15:23
366.   Suffering Bruin
Insomnia. Happens every summer in the house of SB.

Anybody seen this? Pretty cool... (Dodger Tribute Video)

2006-07-03 00:17:25
367.   xaphor
Chad would not benefit psychologically from a better defensive catcher.
2006-07-03 02:31:02
368.   Curtis Lowe
295- I've been pretty silent on this board for a while, if you have to get rid of ticket's please Email me at

As for C Bills, hit hard in 1 out of 4 starts(by a team whose offense was on fire), I'd say he's money( of course that's in lame mans terms).

2006-07-03 04:24:41
369.   Sam DC
The Post beat writer covering the Nationals is quite good. He had a lot of fun with yesterday's game. Here's his description of the sixth inning (the reference to Navarro's crazy throw is truncated because he had already described it in the lead as "an absurd, no-look, backhanded flip from the catcher that allowed, of all things, the opposing pitcher to score all the way from second"):

"So, with that level of comfort, the Nationals came to bat in the sixth. Marlon Anderson -- who played center field for the first time in his major league career this weekend, and looked good doing it -- led off with a single up the middle against Tampa Bay reliever Jon Switzer. After an out, Ortiz laid down a bunt.

Switzer scooped it up and threw to shortstop Tomas Perez, who was covering second. The throw was late, and Anderson was safe. But Perez, in an effort to get Ortiz, threw to first anyway. Problem: First baseman Greg Norton wasn't near the bag, and when the ball approached, "He had to get out of the way at that point," Maddon said. It's as if the announced crowd of 23,823 yelled, 'Duck!' And Norton did.

The error put runners on second and third, and after Jose Vidro popped out to shallow right, the Devil Rays were set to get out of the inning. Except, with Royce Clayton up, Switzer uncorked a wild pitch that catcher Dioner Navarro couldn't block. Anderson scored easily, and here came Ortiz from second.

'You know what?' Ortiz said. 'I play the game hard.'

Navarro -- perhaps aware of that, or perhaps preparing for a career as a long snapper in the NFL -- flipped the ball both blindly and aimlessly, and Ortiz scored easily.

"I'm sure that's the first time that's ever occurred in the history of baseball, with the pitcher standing on second base," Maddon said. "It was a bad moment for us.'"

2006-07-03 04:48:34
370.   DXMachina
350 - I was surprised when I saw that Sele got the call, too. From what I read after, it sounds like Hendrickson was a little sore, they needed an emergency fill-in. It probably would've been the perfect spot to bring in Seo, except...

As far as Billingsley goes, the steal of home didn't bother me much. I have every confidence that Martin will make sure it never happens again. I am concerned about the walks (17 in 22IP). I mean, I think Jeff Francoeur would probably try to work him for a walk at this point. If they decide to send him down to work on that, I won't have a beef. I doubt they will, though, given how badly we need starting pitching.

2006-07-03 06:56:49
371.   Blu2
Enough Izzy already. He's been playing long enough to show there's nothing wrong with his arm. It would have been smart to stop using him while he was hitting good so potential buyers would think he was a hitter all of a sudden. Don't laugh, how many smart GMs are there out there? Colletti isn't the only idiot. For now we play Martinez at third or bring up Aybar or anyone else we have who can hit (Saenz?) and bring in Izzy as a defensive late inning move. Until we can trade him, of course.
2006-07-03 07:22:23
372.   dianagramr
Tampa 'eBay' or Tampa-x ...

You think you are just cleaning up a mess, but you're just setting yourself up for more problems.

2006-07-03 07:41:05
373.   Jon Weisman
350/351 I think Sele pitched in relief Saturday because he needed to do some throwing during the long break between starts. With Perez perhaps not available as a long man, they saved Sele for the game, and with Hendrickson injured by the line drive, it made some sense to put him in.
2006-07-03 08:11:34
374.   D4P
Comedy killer...
2006-07-03 08:46:35
375.   dianagramr

Yes ... you are right ... my bad! :-(

E6 on me ...

2006-07-03 08:50:26
376.   D4P
E6 on me ...

Geez, another shortshop? It's a plague...

2006-07-03 09:03:27
377.   underdog
Yeah, Sele is still listed as the probable starter for tomorrow's (July 4) game vs. Arizona.

I'm still firmly in the "Better Sele than Odalis" camp, for what that's worth.

2006-07-03 09:43:45
378.   Marty
Rich Lederer over at Baseball Analysts has a couple neat listings of halfway-mark stats for pitchers and hitters. Did you know our own Derek Lowe is leading the NL in (lowest) SLG allowed? I found that amazing after what he did last year.
2006-07-03 10:08:21
379.   fanerman
Yay Whittier. Stand up to the man.
2006-07-03 10:45:44
380.   StolenMonkey86
This is why it's important to get ahead in the count:

Number of PA Ahead in the count
Billingsley 28 of 101 PA (27.7%)
Lowe 147 of 467 PA (31.5%)
Penny 138 of 422 PA (32.7%)
Sele 48 of 224 PA (21.4%)
Francisco Liriano 135 of 315 (42.9%)

Number of PA Behind in Count
Billingsley 47 of 101 (46.5%)
Lowe 161 of 467 (34.5%)
Penny 138 of 422 (32.7%)
Sele 91 of 224(40.6%)
Lirano 80 of 315 (25.4%)

Opponent OPS when Behind in the count

Liriano, Sele, and Billingsley are just as vulnerable when they're behind in the count. The difference is that Liriano gets ahead in the count more, which is what Billingsley needs to be able to do. Billingsley clearly has been following Sele too much as a role model.

2006-07-03 11:46:45
381.   willhite
My apologies if this topic has been discussed in the past couple of days but I haven't had a chance to keep up with all of the postings.

Apparently a Cubs blog has a rumor that the Cubbies and Yanks are talking about a deal which would include, among others, A-Rod and Aramis Ramirez. The blog admits it's just a rumor, but I was wondering what we might have of interest to the Yanks that they might consider for A-Rod.

Would we even want him? Apparently the remainder of his contract works out to about 16 mil per year thru 2010. With all of our young guys, paying that much for A-Rod might be quite affordable. Question is, what would we need to give up to get him? How about starting with Kent, Guzman, Izzy and building from there.


2006-07-03 12:32:25
382.   Penarol1916
380. Yeah, someone needs to tell Chad to quit taking Sele's advice and start listening to Liriano more. I heard Sele was telling Chad that pitching just isn't fun unless you're behind in the count.
2006-07-04 19:04:35
383.   ornette
I am a lost Dodger fan following the team (for years now) from abroad. Long live the net.! I tried to do a quick overview of the 382(!) comments and i didn't see any mention of the fact that Colletti is among the responsable parties (as asst GM in SF) for the trade that may become one of the most notorious in BBall hist (right up there with Pedro for Deshields) - Nathan AND Liriano(and a third player who i believe is also currently on the Twins roster) for Pierzynski.
With such a history and the SF penchant for trading young talent for veterans shouldn't Colletti be put on a short leash as far as trading young talent is concerned? Fortunately there is a little bit of press criticism - keep the pressure on him.
And with the current shape of the Dodger farm system - isn't that a reflection on the talent of the previously maligned Dan Evans ??? To what extent can DePodesta be credited?
Also I hope that those that like to advertise their love of Fox news will go do their advertising elsewhere: leave those ugly divisive issues for political sites and let's celebrate the uniting qualities of baseball here…

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