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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

An Unpatriotic July 3 Burrito
2006-07-04 16:27
by Jon Weisman

... is roughing up my July 4. But I hope yours is full of the right kind of fireworks.

One thing, though: easy on the hatred. Reading comments over and over again about how much you hate this player or that gets a little tired. That so-and-so's presence is not the end of the world.

And with that ...

Happy Independence Day, you princes, you slaves of Dodger fandom.

* * *

Tonight's game

Comments (248)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2006-07-04 16:42:21
1.   Linkmeister
See, if you'd eat American food like the spam sandwich I had...
2006-07-04 16:43:46
2.   BlueCrew
looks like furcal's back in the leadoff spot
2006-07-04 16:50:11
3.   Bluebleeder87
Let's hope that move to the 7th spot woke him up.
2006-07-04 16:52:35
4.   Bluebleeder87
watching that guy eating all those hot dogs, almost made me want to vomit.
2006-07-04 16:55:16
5.   JoeyP
Tigers arent so tough.
2006-07-04 16:58:49
6.   BlueCrew
out of curiosity .. do you guys use a software to post messages ... its pretty annoying to hit reload all the time
2006-07-04 17:04:46
7.   Underbruin
Happy 4th indeed, to all.

goes to find some food...

2006-07-04 17:13:06
8.   CanuckDodger
Some bad news from the farm: Justin Orenduff is going to undergo exploratory shoulder surgery in an attempt to find the source of pain Orenduff is experiencing. An MRI failed to reveal anything wrong, but organization pitching coordinator Marty Reed says it is suspected there is a "knot" in the shoulder somewhere. This is exactly how things started with Greg Miller years ago: shoulder pain, MRI shows nothing wrong, exploratory surgery performed.
2006-07-04 17:16:10
9.   Bluebleeder87

I heard about him being hurt alot, hope everthing works out.

2006-07-04 17:27:06
10.   Andrew Shimmin
Kent's out tonight. The four SSs strike again!
2006-07-04 17:32:17
11.   Brian Y
11. I wish we had Aybar up. I'd rather see him in there than Cesar or Lucille II tonite.
2006-07-04 17:33:33
12.   D4P
Call me crazy, but I never pictured Lucille II as a #5 hitter.
2006-07-04 17:40:22
13.   Gagne55
It's the one year anniversary of the D'backs injuring Drew with a HBP. And look who the Dodgers are playing.
2006-07-04 17:45:08
14.   gpellamjr
12 Kent was batting in the 5th spot. Clearly that's that 2B's spot in the lineup.
2006-07-04 17:55:07
15.   Sam DC
Well Jon, I'd recommend you stay clear of the Bronx Banter comments tonight.

Happy Independence Day everyone.

2006-07-04 17:56:21
16.   Bluebleeder87
Lucille II as a #5 hitter.

what?? must have been a late late move.

2006-07-04 17:58:19
17.   the OZ
8 Thanks for the report, sad though it may be. I read that LaRoche is back in the lineup for Las Vegas; was there a diagnosis for his shoulder other than soreness/stiffness due to the dive for a batted ball?

Jon, where do you get your burritos? I'd like to know because (1) I never want to eat a burrito from the place that evidently made you sick, and (2) I can't find a decent burrito in the West LA/Santa Monica area.

I'll open it up to the board to list your favorite taco shops west of Beverly Glen, if such fine taquerias exist in this guero-est of neighborhoods.

2006-07-04 18:00:24
18.   Sam DC
If you want to soil your holiday with some awful awful homer announcing, the video of Ryan Zimmerman's game winning shot is up at You can hear one of the TV guys -- think it's Paciorek -- hollering in the background, "get up," "get up" and then both announcers start hooting and hollering. It's beyond appropriate enthusiasm by leaps, bounds, and hoots.

One of these times, I'm going to call him Zimmermann.

2006-07-04 18:07:49
19.   Steve
Tito's? No?
2006-07-04 18:12:39
20.   Bluebleeder87
Good start for Sele, I wouldn't be suprised if we won today, considering the D-backs pitcher isn't that impressive.
2006-07-04 18:13:23
21.   Bluebleeder87

Pechanga is really really good (fresh)

2006-07-04 18:13:51
22.   Bluebleeder87
I'm not worried about that HR
2006-07-04 18:14:24
23.   gpellamjr
22 Especially not since he had already struck out.
2006-07-04 18:15:36
24.   Bluebleeder87
You can't go wrong with King Taco (ummm, umm good)
2006-07-04 18:18:58
25.   gpellamjr
The most overrated place is one in Buffalo called Mighty Taco. I just didn't get it. But you can't fault poor Buffalo, they've got Jim's Steakout, as well as some serious municipal and county government problems.
2006-07-04 18:20:18
26.   Sam DC
Just found out you can see the big fireworks from my bedroom window. Watched for a while, bottom half cut off by trees. Then I wanted to come back and talk to you all. take from that what you will.

My LA burrito is El Nopal pregnant burrito in palms.

2006-07-04 18:21:09
27.   Linkmeister
17 I don't know if it's still there, nor is it exactly Santa Monica/West LA, but El Nopal on National Blvd where it intersects with Motor Ave (Drive?) used to serve humongous and very good burritos. It's about an eight-table restaurant roughly 1/2 mile down from Beverly Hills Country Club at 3084 Motor.
2006-07-04 18:26:35
28.   Bluebleeder87

Me & me girlfriend agree, that the sauce makes or brakes a taco/or burrito

2006-07-04 18:28:06
29.   Linkmeister
I don't believe it. What are the odds some guy in DC and another guy in Hawai'i would both remember the same hole-in-the -wall restaurant?

Review of El Nopal:

2006-07-04 18:29:01
30.   Gen3Blue
This Gonzoles has all the bona fides. I am afraid we are going to have to use care to avoid making him look like a Tom Seaver, as we have done with all kinds of young pitchers recently. But with a bit of thought this can often be avoided. Its mostly in the coaching I think.
Jon, I join you in fearing I may have to really accept R. Martinez
2006-07-04 18:30:25
31.   Gen3Blue
But he doesn't know the Territory!
2006-07-04 18:31:10
32.   regfairfield
How on Earth does slo-mo become "X-Mo"?
2006-07-04 18:32:11
33.   Bluebleeder87

Have any of you herd of El Tepeyac?

2006-07-04 18:34:17
34.   Gen3Blue
I'm afraid the D's are totally cowed by this pitcher. I hope I am wrong.
2006-07-04 18:38:38
35.   Andrew Shimmin
X-mo is slow motion, to the eXtreme!!!1!eleven!
2006-07-04 18:39:22
36.   Bluebleeder87
pull the ball Ethier ( man at 3rd)
2006-07-04 18:40:24
37.   Sam DC
29 It's not so much remembering the same place, but doing so at the same instant. I feel like we need to meet somewhere in the middle (El Nopal?) and high five.

These fireworks are incredible loud -- my dog is hiding under the coffee table.

2006-07-04 18:40:31
38.   the OZ
Wow. Thanks. You guys are awesome.

I'm a burrito guru in San Diego, but now that I'm back in LA I'm totally worthless when it comes to finding burrito-ey goodness.

2006-07-04 18:43:08
39.   JoeyP
Enrique Gonzales has pitched some good games for the D-bax. It wouldnt be that surprising to see him pitch tonite considering there are 6 banjos in the lineup.
2006-07-04 18:43:29
40.   Bluebleeder87
the d-backs don't impress me when it comes to D
2006-07-04 18:45:30
41.   Linkmeister
37 Sam, I'm game, but I have no idea when that might be possible.

I used to work at the Club I mentioned, so El Nopal was an easy walk for lunch.

Hopefully none of my neighbors go bonkers with the fireworks; my dog hides under beds. The 4th isn't usually too bad, but New Year's Eve here is insane--it's a two-tranquilizer night for the dog then.

2006-07-04 18:45:51
42.   Bluebleeder87
I have to admit Izzy can't steel a base
2006-07-04 18:46:00
43.   Andrew Shimmin
Remember when Robles got thrown out stealing nine times in a row? Don't know why that popped in to my head just now.
2006-07-04 18:47:29
44.   JoeyP
Izzy thinking he'd rather have Martin lead off the next inning than Sele.
2006-07-04 18:48:35
45.   Gen3Blue
Beautiful throw. On the plus size we made this guy throw some pitches. Anyone know--is Sele at all good with the bat for a pitcher? He should make this guy throw at least three pitches.
2006-07-04 18:49:20
46.   Bluebleeder87
El Tepeyac is really really famous I'm kind of suprise non of you guys ever heard of it.
2006-07-04 18:49:45
47.   Andrew Shimmin
Sele was in the AL every year but this one.
2006-07-04 18:52:04
48.   CanuckDodger
In Jacksonville tonight, T.J. Nall pitched a complete game 2-hitter, 12 K's and 0 BB's. Too bad he'll never pitch an inning for the Dodgers.
2006-07-04 18:53:24
49.   Bluebleeder87

I'll put it to you this way, I'ts interesting & amusing watching Sele hit.

2006-07-04 18:54:55
50.   mintxcore
Nicos is my favorite burrito in San Diego, El Pelon is the best in Boston. Santa Barbara has Super Cucas. LA, though, is a mystery to me.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2006-07-04 18:56:18
51.   Gen3Blue
47 49 I guess that say's it all. Lets see if he has the gray stuff to get three pitches.
2006-07-04 18:59:47
52.   skybluestoday
Would it make more sense to bat Nomar leadoff? I'm no expert, but maybe he could be a Wade Boggs-type of leadoff hitter/run-scorer. (I realize he doesn't walk like Boggs.) (But he does seem to get HBP's, at least based on last night's bruisefest.)
2006-07-04 19:03:09
53.   Bluebleeder87
Don't you just love baseball!! Sele get's a hit. I love this game!
2006-07-04 19:05:06
54.   Bluebleeder87
Like I said I'm wasn't worried about that Hr
2006-07-04 19:05:35
55.   Bluebleeder87
Burns busted a Shelby with that throw
2006-07-04 19:06:47
56.   Bluebleeder87
I remember John "T bone" Shelby making throws like Byrnes.
2006-07-04 19:07:04
57.   Gen3Blue
I'm impressed, Martin got 8 pitches and didn't make an out, and Sele got at least three. And some luck. Even if we get nothing out of this we may get rid of this pitcher eventually.
I can't see how are "middle can keep failing". I know Kent is hurt, so I guess he is excused.
Any throws drawn are good. almost as good as a pitch.
Good Stuff happening.
2006-07-04 19:07:10
58.   Gen3Blue
I'm impressed, Martin got 8 pitches and didn't make an out, and Sele got at least three. And some luck. Even if we get nothing out of this we may get rid of this pitcher eventually.
I can't see how are "middle can keep failing". I know Kent is hurt, so I guess he is excused.
Any throws drawn are good. almost as good as a pitch.
Good Stuff happening.
2006-07-04 19:16:37
59.   Linkmeister
If you ever see the film of Mays catching Wertz's ball in the 1954 WS, keep an eye on him after he throws. He falls down just like Byrnes did.
2006-07-04 19:18:53
60.   Linkmeister
AFLAC answer: Mathewson
2006-07-04 19:20:07
61.   Gen3Blue
60 Not Cristy? Poor bastard.
2006-07-04 19:23:19
62.   Gen3Blue
Vins not going to let Sele forget that gopher ball to the pitcher, is he.
2006-07-04 19:23:51
63.   Vishal
kent is hurt?
2006-07-04 19:25:07
64.   Bluebleeder87

why should he : )

2006-07-04 19:25:17
65.   D4P
kent is hurt?

That truck ain't gonna wash itself...

2006-07-04 19:25:41
66.   Bluebleeder87
Sele's settled down
2006-07-04 19:28:35
67.   Bluebleeder87
do any of you guys get a kick out of watching Sele hit?
2006-07-04 19:31:57
68.   Gen3Blue
63 I hope I didn't start a false rumor, but someone(probably Vin) said Kent has a sore something and is resting tonight. It really didn't sound much worse than whenever
Garc or Drew or Kent is out. I may have even been sarcastic, but I'm not sure.
2006-07-04 19:42:45
69.   Andrew Shimmin
65- That was great.

63- Inside the Dodgers says he has, "soreness in his left side."

2006-07-04 19:46:50
70.   Terry A
That's the Dodger medical staff term for pancreatitis.
2006-07-04 19:54:47
71.   overkill94
As for the burrito debate, I'm not much of an expert, but for my money it doesn't get better than Baja Bud's. It's their meat that makes everything they serve good (enchiladas, burritos, quesadillas, etc) although their burritos are a bit small. There's one in the promenade and another right across from my place (Wilshire and Granville).
2006-07-04 20:23:04
72.   Andrew Shimmin
Gio is sweating up a storm, but he just hit 91 on the gun. Seems to be sitting on 87.
2006-07-04 20:24:50
73.   Gen3Blue
52 That is an interesting thought and could be important. Though not your stereotypical leadoff types, Garc and Martin are interesting. And Furc and Iz have not shown much stealing.
2006-07-04 20:25:24
74.   D4P
I'm still trying to figure out how Tracy ever let Gio go.
2006-07-04 20:29:19
75.   Andrew Shimmin
So, if the scorer had given Martin a passed ball, instead of giving a wild pitch to Gio, that run wouldn't have been earned, right? Darn the luck.
2006-07-04 20:33:13
76.   Andrew Shimmin
74- Had to make room for Salomon Torres.
2006-07-04 20:44:16
77.   StolenMonkey86
Happy 4th. I saw the fireworks on the mall in DC, so I just got onto gameday.

Where was Drew hit by that pitch?

2006-07-04 20:53:39
78.   Gen3Blue
77 Possibley the knee. I hope he isn't out for the year.
I used to get a kick out of Shelby-one of my favorites.
why did Gio go; I don't know; we had Sanchez, Gio Carrara, Mota, and some Vet who I think went to the Yanks, as well as Brazoban, at the same time and seemed to get rid of them as fast as we could. Gio got it stuck to him tonight.
2006-07-04 20:56:15
79.   D4P
When it comes to Baez, let's hope Eight is Enough...
2006-07-04 20:57:37
80.   Izzy
I noticed Mia showed up in the stands today. The day after Nomar was hit twice and almost a third time. Something tells me she still had a vicious instep and plenty of spunk. I also noticed he wasn't hit again. On Sele, he is now my man, until he is not again, that is. But, until he isn't, he is. And Little's little shuffle did seem to get things moving again. Ethier is oh so sweet.
2006-07-04 20:58:00
81.   Gen3Blue
He got him, alright!
2006-07-04 20:58:17
82.   Gen3Blue
He got him, alright!
2006-07-04 20:58:47
83.   Gen3Blue
He got him, alright!
2006-07-04 20:58:48
84.   Gen3Blue
He got him, alright!
2006-07-04 21:00:58
85.   Andrew Shimmin
He got him, alright!

[What? It looked like fun. . .]

2006-07-04 21:01:15
86.   D4P
To clarify, he only got him once, right?
2006-07-04 21:02:55
87.   underdog
You can say that again, Gen! (But, uh, no need.) ;-)

And bless you Jon, for your sentiments in this posting. Couldn't agree more. And bless your Maalox supply, hope it's helping. (Ditto for me, after my unpatriotic spicy Indian dinner.)

And bless the Dodgers, for giving us a win on the 4th of July. And at least one day in first place (with two other teams).
And bless them for sending Kuo down as I'd hoped (not because I hate him - I like the guy and hope he comes back to show us what he can do!)
And bless the weather Gods for giving us San Franciscans a clear 4th for once.
And bless us one and all.

2006-07-04 21:03:55
88.   Andrew Shimmin
Oh, now I get it. Baez hit Green. Hmm. I like the concept, but I'm ambivalent about the practical application.
2006-07-04 21:05:33
89.   StolenMonkey86
I had fish & chips when I was in Wales on the 4th, two years ago. I recommend it.
2006-07-04 21:07:26
90.   Gen3Blue
He got him, alright!
2006-07-04 21:09:07
91.   StolenMonkey86
Navarro went 3 for 4, and the D-Rays beat Boston now two games in a row. Because of my annoyance with the Red Sox, that makes me happy.
2006-07-04 21:10:59
92.   Gen3Blue
Sorry, wasn't my fault. Obviously some of our main contributors were on vacation tonight, but I think it was a good discussion. Perhaps superior! None of the hostility creeping in that Jon had remarked.
2006-07-04 21:11:19
93.   StolenMonkey86
88 - Why does that remind me of when Hamulack hit Barry Bonds?
2006-07-04 21:14:20
94.   D4P
Obviously some of our main contributors were on vacation tonight

I'm guessing Bob was being avuncular.

2006-07-04 21:15:26
95.   Andrew Shimmin
92- I'm afraid you're going to have to be more specific. How do you quintuple post a comment without its being your fault? Is your computer possessed? Did you give Ken bad rotisserie baseball advice?
2006-07-04 21:24:17
96.   Andrew Shimmin
95 sounds a snippier than I meant it to. I was curious; didn't mean to interrogate.
2006-07-04 21:30:43
97.   D4P
I doubt this will mean much to the few that are posting here tonight, but I know that Nate and Penarol (if lurking) will grieve with me in acknowledging the untimely death of "DFaninWis," the long-time patriarch (and Bob Timmermann-like figure) of the ESPN Dodger board. Under bizarre circumstances, he was forced to leave the board roughly 6 months or so ago, and the board has deteriorated significantly since that time.

We found out today that he passed away from a heart attack at the age of 52 on June 23rd. Though he lived in Wisconsin, I had the pleasure of meeting him in person at Dodger Stadium last summer. He was a beloved figure who will be greatly missed.

2006-07-04 21:35:42
98.   bhsportsguy
It is very probable that sometime after the All-Star break, Las Vegas will have Aybar, Loney, Guzman, Kemp and D. Young in their lineup.

Loney hit his 3rd home run of the month and maybe starting to put that part of his game together.

2006-07-04 21:43:31
99.   Bob Timmermann
I've come back from the game.

The Dodgers are 5-1 when I attend. 3-0 in games in which Aaron Sele pitches.

They have scored: 8, 6, 16, 7, 10, and 11 runs when I've gone.

The only loss was in the first game a 9-8 loss to the Braves in game 3 of the season. That was Coachjpark's game.

The Rockies win and it's 3-way tie time!

2006-07-04 21:45:27
100.   Blu2
Unless they move Nomar to third (where he should have been all year), Loney can hit .700 with two home runs a day and they won't bring him up because they have no place to play him. So sad.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2006-07-04 21:49:58
101.   Steve
Is the question how many crappy "E. Gonzalezs" can one team have, or how many can we get back from the Devil Rays for Andre Ethier?
2006-07-04 21:51:44
102.   Steve
Or, I guess that should say Diamondbacks. I shouldn't have misplaced my "Guide To Expansion Teams That Have No Pitching At Any Level Of Their System Outside Of Scott Kazmir And Brandon Webb, But Whose Pitchers Ned Colletti Drools Over"
2006-07-04 21:56:56
103.   D4P
how many can we get back from the Devil Rays for Andre Ethier?

For Drew. Ethier's not going anywhere.

2006-07-04 22:09:35
104.   Steve
By the way, it is way time to red-light Izturis. There is no reason to pretend anymore.
2006-07-04 22:16:57
105.   D4P
Et tu, Brute?
2006-07-04 22:18:13
106.   Scanman33
2006-07-04 22:19:10
107.   Jeromy
Jumping in very late in the conversation here . . . by the way Happy 4th everyone . . . but I just got back from watching the M's and Angels yesterday.

I know this may be more appropriate for 6-4-2, but considering all of the discussion on this site of rookie starting pitchers, I thought I would offer some thoughts on King Felix vs. Jered Dream Weaver. It was definitely worth my 3 hour drive to see the match up. Jered was outstanding and proved to me worth DFAing his brother. He really kept the M's off balance with his breaking ball and change up. He mixed in the 92 fastball in spots when he needed to, but it was never a give in pitch 2-0 or 3-1. He would show it to them enough to get them to look for it and then made a living on getting them to flail at the off speed stuff. Simply impressive pitching for the rookie. I think struck out 8. I know he got Ichiro the first two times he faced him and that in itself is impressive.

Felix was good as well until he gave up a 2 run line drive bomb to Kendry Morales. That really unnerved him and he was never the same after. His body language changed from a confident, cocky presence on the mound to a guy who was clearly frustrated and battling himself. Felix is much more of a thrower, with his 95-98 mph gas and a wicked breaker. He simply seemed to me to be much more predictable: get in trouble, go to the fastball. The Angels hitter were ready for it and made him pay, 7-1 final score. Anyway, good to see that the Dodgers are back tied for 1st with the win today. I smell a sweep!

2006-07-04 22:29:01
108.   Uncle Miltie
Future Dodger Carl Crawford now has 12 home runs and 29 steals to go along with his .500+ SLG and almost .900 OPS.

I'm proud of 3.5, he's going to get us something big, possibly Livan Hernandez (you can't get much bigger than that).

2006-07-04 22:40:30
109.   StolenMonkey86
Ethier won't go anywhere. Colletti wants us to know he made a good trade.
2006-07-04 23:06:14
110.   Marty
Let me contribute to burrito thoughts. I don't know much about the west side, but I hate Titos. I hear good things about Tacos por Favor on Olympic in Santa Monica. There is a taco truck usually around Venice and Rose that has great tacos, but I'm not sure about burritos. Avoid El Tepeyac unless you just want volume.

My recs:

El Parian on Pico in Downtown
El Gran Burrito on Santa Monica and Vermont
La Estrella on York in Highland Park
Ana Maria's in Grand Central Market downtown
Pueblas Tacos on Villa in Pasadena
Nazos on Figueroa in Mt. Washington
Tacos Baja Ensenada on Whittier in East L.A.
Any King Taco will do in a pinch

2006-07-04 23:36:41
111.   fawnkyj

El taurino off of olympic and Hoover is a great taco stand too.
I dont what people love about titos tacos they taste like elementary cafeteria food.

2006-07-04 23:45:10
112.   natepurcell
I just got home. Read the news about Dfaninwis. Terrible news, I honestly can't believe it. Best wishes to his family.
2006-07-04 23:49:46
113.   spacebrother
Nice game. Was in right field in the season seats. Sunlight in our eyes prevented seeing well for the first 4 innings. Sele and team did well against the last place team. Outfielders were busy swatting away the bugs all game. It looked like they were practicing some sort of new signs at each other.

Best taco/ burrito stand outside of East L.A.: Yuca's on Hillhurst in Echo Park.

2006-07-04 23:56:19
114.   LAT
19. Steve is a Tito's fan. New found respect for him. I usually knock back four. I'm guessing Kobashi could break 50.

24 & 110. Bluebleeder and Marty, I first discovered King Taco when they were on the reserved level of Dodger Stadium. Of course they were like $7.50 at DS and $3 on Pico. Actually King taco is much better than Titos but Tito has the bigger cult following. Best taco and hot sauce in town.

26 & 27 Sam and Link, of course I have never heard of El Nopal and I live right off of Motor. I will remedy that problem within the week and will follow up.

41. Link when did you work at BHCC and what did you do. I am a member and work out there 3 times a week.

110. Very impressive list Marty!

2006-07-04 23:59:21
115.   thinkingblue
Navarro went 3 for 4

We were ROBBED!!!!!

2006-07-05 00:00:01
116.   thinkingblue
I'm proud of 3.5, he's going to get us something big, possibly Livan Hernandez (you can't get much bigger than that).

Um, NO

2006-07-05 00:01:59
117.   thinkingblue
Sele's settled down

Still waiting for him to go down the "Tomko path."

2006-07-05 00:02:25
118.   LAT
111. Its the cheese and the shell but mostly the cheese. Otherwise you are right, its third-grade-taco-tuesday. I love them anyway, but I will say Tito's salsa is awful.
2006-07-05 00:09:49
119.   natepurcell

I think Unclemiltie was just having fun.

2006-07-05 00:13:52
120.   bhsportsguy
With Mets going back to Lima time, I have to think that Perez (with a lot of salary picked up by the Dodgers) may still be tradeable.
2006-07-05 00:15:40
121.   bhsportsguy
Too bad about Orenduff, it will be interesting in the Dodgers add him to the 40 man roster or chance a team picking him up on a Rule 5 draft. A lot will depend on how long it takes him to recover from the surgery.
2006-07-05 00:25:45
122.   natepurcell
this is fun. not including tonight.

Ethier's VORP 13.3

Bradley's VORP *-*3.2

2006-07-05 00:26:45
123.   natepurcell

I think you add him. Hes a former supp 1st round pick who has held his own at every level. Some team is going to pick him. That said, I don't think you have to put him on the 40 man until after 2007.

2006-07-05 00:29:46
124.   bhsportsguy
123 he was signed out of college in 2004 and he will have played 3 years so he needs to be added after this season.
2006-07-05 00:33:53
125.   Uncle Miltie
112- I was out all day. Did something happen to someone on this board?
2006-07-05 00:35:37
126.   natepurcell

someone on the espn dodger board. Now that board is completely retarded but before there were some very knowledgable posters there and one of them just passed away.

2006-07-05 00:36:41
127.   natepurcell
James Loney's ISOpower is creeping up to .200. It's at .184 now and slowing moving up.

But who cares about a non prospect though right?

2006-07-05 00:37:12
128.   JoeyP
Ethier is 46/108 on balls in play.
Thats a .426 average.
2006-07-05 00:38:23
129.   Uncle Miltie
No! I missed it!

From the LA Times
Baez plunks Green on the hip with 96-mph fastball in the ninth.

Green, who had limped to first base, was not pleased.

"One hundred percent no coincidence," he said. "All I know is, the only guys that got hit [intentionally the last two days] were on our team."

Diamondbacks outfielder Luis Gonzalez raised his voice in the clubhouse.

"It's … gutless," he said. "Go ask [the pitcher] so he can tell you the ball slipped out of his hand."

"Everybody knows I pitch inside to everybody," Baez said. "That's not anything new. If they're mad, that's not my problem. They can do whatever they want."

Baez is finally starting to earn his let's hope he gets suspended :)

I wish I could have seen it. What was Vin's reaction?

2006-07-05 00:39:51
130.   Uncle Miltie
126- I'm sorry to hear that. My condolences to his family.
2006-07-05 00:40:41
131.   natepurcell

Of course its all luck. Even if you regress his numbers, he is still significantly outperforming bradley.

2006-07-05 00:42:22
132.   Greg Brock
Dear Diamondbacks,

You don't get to dose five guys, and then feign anger when retaliation comes. Everything is even, and if you plunk somebody tomorrow, there will be a fight.

Everybody with a brain.

2006-07-05 00:42:22
133.   JoeyP
If i was a Dbax fan, I'd be more concerned with Luis Gonzalez quitting his HGH, rather than him bitching about getting hit by a pitch.

If any team is in dire need of some helpful injuries (like the Dodgers had earlier in the season), its the Dbax. They need to phase out Gonzalez/Counsell/Green, and start playing Jackson/Quentin/Drew every day. Playing their useless vets right now wont get them anywhere.

Byrnes is taking his lumps right now with the rotation, but its necessary. Duque, Ortiz were useless riff raff.

He needs to do the same thing with his hitters. I mean, he's in last place of a pathetic division. Why not get something out of this season, rather than aspire to be the 2005 Jim Tracy-led Dodgers?

2006-07-05 00:43:06
134.   JoeyP
131. Cant argue that. Bradley isnt playing.
2006-07-05 00:45:23
135.   Uncle Miltie
133- I was just going to say that it's gutless to take Winstrol and HGH
2006-07-05 00:45:43
136.   natepurcell
Dbacks should call up Micah Ownings. Why not? Their rotation isn't very good anyways.


thats the thing with Bradley. The off/on the field antics never was a huge thing for me. He just never played. He is so brittle and fragile that he makes Drew look like Superman.

Maybe that might be the new "frontier" in sabermetrics, trying to acquire ballplayers that actually play full seasons.

2006-07-05 00:47:05
137.   bhsportsguy
Of course, all the guys on the Fox post game show said Baez was definitely hit Green on purpose and that the D-Backs should just take it and move on.
2006-07-05 00:53:13
138.   Uncle Miltie
When a fight breaks out tomorrow Penny and Broxton better stay in the dugout. That's why we traded for BJ. That's why Alomar is still on the team.
2006-07-05 00:55:32
139.   bhsportsguy
138 It better happen when the Dodgers are batting since Penny is pitching tomorrow.
2006-07-05 00:57:16
140.   natepurcell

lol, no ones going to even try and go after Broxton. You kidding me? 6'4 290lbs... you mess with the bull, you're going to get the horns.

2006-07-05 01:04:08
141.   bhsportsguy
BTW Drew and Lofton are both expected to miss tomorrow's game, Lofton strained his hammy and Drew's foot is sore after he fouled a ball off it in the 6th.
2006-07-05 01:04:19
142.   Uncle Miltie
140- a bull in a china shop, literally...that's Broxton fighting. He seems like the clumsy type so even if he's just running on the field to protect one of his teammates, he could seriously wound an opposing player. He wouldn't have to use much force to knock a guy out. You know it's in a bull's nature to be aggressive.
2006-07-05 01:09:52
143.   Greg Brock
Nothing ever told me more about Mike Piazza than the day Clemens threw the bat back at him, and Piazza didn't do jack about it. Now, I'm no advocate of senseless violence, but if a D-Backs pitcher plunks a Dodger, and there isn't some serious dugout clearing, I will know a lot about this Dodger squad.
2006-07-05 01:15:20
144.   coachjpark
-Disclaimer: Random Hee Seop Alert!-

Hee-Seop Choi hit the ball so hard off the fence in left-center in the second inning that the Red Barons had a close play on him sliding into second for his double. Choi hurt his right knee on the slide and had to leave the game.

-Despite his .207 batting average, at least it's good to see that Hee Seop is hitting the ball hard....

2006-07-05 01:25:39
145.   Greg Brock
I wish HSC the best, but hitting .207 in Pawtucket is bad news. Bad, bad news.
2006-07-05 01:35:44
146.   JoeyP
He seems like the clumsy type so even if he's just running on the field to protect one of his teammates, he could seriously wound an opposing player.

I dont know.
If the Dbax have some MMA guys on their team, I think Broxton would be in trouble fighting that style.
It'd be the coolest thing ever if in a baseball brawl, players start breaking out the MMA moves.

Broxton vs Matt Hughes
I'd pay money to see that.

2006-07-05 01:42:47
147.   Greg Brock
The real question is, when the fight breaks out, who's the Dodger that pretends to fight, but is very sneakily backpeddling away from the action. You know, the Jesse Orosco Award. I bet on Furcal or Cruz. Maybe Saito.
2006-07-05 01:48:24
148.   Uncle Miltie
Broxton vs. Juan Cruz

Broxton really is twice his size

2006-07-05 02:04:31
149.   bhsportsguy
Dreaming.......From Wednesday's LA Times

"Before the Angels designated Weaver for assignment last week, Stoneman asked the Mets for prized outfield prospect Lastings Milledge, baseball sources said. The Mets would consider trading Milledge for a top starter but not an innings-eater like Weaver, sources said"

2006-07-05 02:09:56
150.   natepurcell

Is Stoneman that dense?

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2006-07-05 02:29:45
151.   bhsportsguy
150 A little more....
"The Dodgers, St. Louis Cardinals, San Diego Padres, New York Mets, Milwaukee Brewers, Boston Red Sox and Texas Rangers all are thought to have some interest. The Cincinnati Reds and Arizona Diamondbacks could consider Weaver too."

Weaver watch is 5 more days.

2006-07-05 06:37:12
152.   Andrew Shimmin
I was at the game, referenced in Henson's History of the Beanball piece, where Norm Charleton beaned Scioscia. It would have been 1992, I think, since I was in the sixth grade. I was the guest of a boy named Brandon of whom I've not thought in more than ten years. There was an old guy behind me who shouted at me for obstructing his view with my foam finger. In retrospect, I agree with him.

Charleton didn't get thrown out, which was the absolute highth of outrage to me then. This was before I learned about the two errors on one play rule. . .

2006-07-05 07:28:09
153.   Steve
Baez couldn't have been aiming at Green; if he was, we all know he would have missed.
2006-07-05 08:02:10
154.   Penarol1916
That is absolutely horrible news about DfaninWis, D4P. I always thought that he would be a great poster on this board, very patient, not wanting to make snap judgements about anything, but I get the feeling that he liked being one of the few voices of reason in that pool of insanity known as the Dodger ESPN board.
2006-07-05 08:51:47
155.   D4P
I get the feeling that he liked being one of the few voices of reason in that pool of insanity

I think you're right. He liked his role a lot, perhaps even too much. No offense, but he could come across as a bit smarmy and condescending at times, which I think is partly what contributed to him having to leave the board.

2006-07-05 08:55:23
156.   Penarol1916
155. I know, I had my battles with him, but it boggles my mind that he had to leave the board. Was he banned or was it a self-imposed exile.
2006-07-05 09:02:47
157.   Bluebleeder87
110. Avoid El Tepeyac unless you just want volume.

true I live near by & I've only eatin there like 3 times, I don't understand why so many people like that place, I pass by all the time & see people waiting in line to get in there (I don't get it)

2006-07-05 09:06:31
158.   Bob Timmermann
I've let go of that one.

My new quixotic battle is getting Jae Seo a save for his game on June 23.

2006-07-05 09:07:44
159.   D4P
It was essentially a self-imposed exile. Someone back in January (quite possibly Feeb) figured out where DFan worked and sent an email to his company, claiming to be conducting a study on internet use and wanting to inform the company that DFan was posting from work a lot. The company wasn't so much upset with DFan for posting from work, but were a bit worried that some weirdo would send them such an email and didn't want that to happen again. So, they asked DFan to stop posting from work, which he did. And, since he didn't have internet access at home, that meant that he left the board for good.
2006-07-05 11:07:43
160.   godvls
110, 157
Re: El Tepeyac......I love "Manuel's", but would never order a burrito there. The enchiladas rancheras are outstanding; I've been ordering them for nearly 25 years and have never been disappointed. The taquitos w/guacamole are pretty good too. The burritos are the Mexican food equivalent of an "innings eater"; tremendous quantity, marginal quality.
2006-07-05 11:17:56
161.   Bluebleeder87
I'm gonna have to try the enchiladas next time I go, it's always packed so I'll be expecting a long waite. The guy that stands outside the parking lot is Manuel's best friend since child hood.
2006-07-05 11:28:17
162.   Linkmeister
114 LAT, I was at BHCC during its pre-opening and first year or so. I was DP Mgr for its parent organization out here in Hawai'i and got sent over there to get the systems up and running (every other week for about a year, starting in 1985, I think).

I'd love to hear more about it now. Drop me a line at if you feel like it.

2006-07-05 11:44:08
163.   Suffering Bruin
1986, Game 6. It's the World Series. Vin Scully with the call. You'll either thank me or hate me later.

2006-07-05 12:08:02
164.   Bluebleeder87

classic moment with those graphics were pretty interesting. Hearing Vinnie is always a treat.

2006-07-05 13:08:59
165.   DXMachina
163 - Bob posted that a few months ago over at the Griddle. There was also a link to a making of the video story.

2006-07-05 13:12:37
166.   bluetahoe
Steve, your constant bashing of Baez is growing old. How about looking at the unexpected positives from hurlers such as Sele, Beimel, and Saito.
2006-07-05 13:15:18
167.   thinkblue0

relax. It was a joke. That doesn't change the fact that Baez is terrible. I don't see what Sele, Beimel, and Saito have anything to do with Baez.

2006-07-05 13:29:37
168.   Penarol1916
167. It's because bluetahoe will not tolerate anyone making fun of Ned's mistakes, you are only allowed to look at all of the great things Midas has done.
2006-07-05 13:52:04
169.   Bluebleeder87

Ned has a new nick?

2006-07-05 13:52:56
170.   bluetahoe
It's OK to criticize. I choose not to do it too often. But the negative nelly comments need to be balanced out with some postive petey comments, IMO. Its not like the Dodgers are HORRIBLE and this season has been a DISASTER. We're in 1st actually. Sure it may not last, but then again it may and I wouldn't want to miss the bus.
2006-07-05 13:56:09
171.   thinkblue0
I'm kinda surprised...usually the Hot Stove is really heating up by now....
2006-07-05 13:58:23
172.   Penarol1916
169. You weren't around when bluetahoe christened Ned "Midas" because every move he makes turns out to be gold?
2006-07-05 13:59:22
173.   thinkblue0
It's OK to criticize. I choose not to do it too often. But the negative nelly comments need to be balanced out with some postive petey comments, IMO.

I'm not trying to start anything here, but how come this wasn't your philosophy when Depo was GM? You railed against EVERY move the guy made, but now everyone is supposed to give Ned the benefit of the doubt on everything? I don't dislike him as a GM necessarily, but it doesn't change the fact that he has made a couple of pretty bad trades. He's also made a few good moves to balance it out...but that doesn't mean anyone is exempt from discussing his bad moves.

2006-07-05 14:00:31
174.   bluetahoe
Thinkblue0, but why harp on Baez all the time? Why not discuss how GREAT Beimel, Saito, and Sele have been more often. I hardly ever read a comment on how great they've been. I all read are negative nelly comments about how they are eventually going to flop.
2006-07-05 14:01:43
175.   bluetahoe
thinkblue0, you must have me mistaken for someone else.
2006-07-05 14:04:01
176.   thinkblue0

no, I'm about 100% sure that I haven't. But whatever.

2006-07-05 14:08:26
177.   natepurcell
As General Managerof the Los Angeles Dodgers, I have successfully traded Danys Baez and Kenny Lofton for a package IMO that was a pretty good haul.

Details later, Im going to lunch.

2006-07-05 14:09:31
178.   natepurcell
To add, the team was the Houston Astros so you can try and imagine what I got back. I'll tell you later, now its lunch time!
2006-07-05 14:09:56
179.   Bluebleeder87

I get it now, Ned has the MIDAS TOUCH

2006-07-05 14:09:56
180.   Andrew Shimmin
People post about the things that interest them. What would be more boring than each of us trying to balance out the things we actually cared about with things we didn't, just so that everything was even?
2006-07-05 14:12:51
181.   LAT
Why harp on Ned? Because on balance he has done a piss poor job. In an all or nothing proposition, I would hit the undo button. That means if given the opportunity to undo the multi million dollar Furcal deal, the Baez, Carter, Seo and Mueller experiment, the Kent extension, the Hall and Hindrickson sale at the expense of having to undo the Nomar, Ethier and Lofton deals, I would. How about you Bluetahoe?
2006-07-05 14:14:56
182.   thinkblue0
Thinkblue0, but why harp on Baez all the time?

because he stinks. AND we gave up prospects for him....simply put, no one is happy about it. When a guy is stinking up the joint, people are going to talk about it.

Why not discuss how GREAT Beimel, Saito, and Sele have been more often.

Because Beimel hasn't been "GREAT". He's got a 3.34 ERA...only 10 K's in about 30 IP. He's an okay reliever...certianly not great. Saito has been really good, that's a nice pick up. As far as Sele goes, so far so good...the problem is that the only good team he's faced is the A's and we all know what happened there.

I all read are negative nelly comments about how they are eventually going to flop.

Those comments are warranted with guys like Beimel and Sele. Face it, Sele has NEVER been a really good most of us refuse to believe he's going to miraculously become great at this point in his career. Most of us are waiting for the real Sele to show himself, much like Tomko did.

2006-07-05 14:17:38
183.   Linkmeister
LAT, did you see 162?
2006-07-05 14:20:20
184.   bluetahoe

The only player Ned lost that mettered was Sanchez. Jackson, Tiffany, and Navarro are, or will prove to be GARBAGE. No big loss. Just think what the DRays could have had for Baez last July. They have to be beating their heads against a wall now.

Ned has shown the foresight to go out and get some effective, low salaried guys who have shined for us. And don't forget about that Ethier kid. That kid can play. You have to give Midas kudos for sticking it to Billy Beane like that. And don't forget how Ned had the courage to throw Choi down the trash chute. It took a lot of guts and he did it, making our ball club stronger and better.

2006-07-05 14:20:25
185.   Andrew Shimmin
183- Maybe he saw it, but also saw 159 and thought it was a trap!
2006-07-05 14:24:10
186.   Daniel Zappala
Why not discuss how GREAT Beimel, Saito, and Sele have been more often.

Quite frankly, because they are not that exciting. Saito and Sele are 36 and no one knows how much more the Dodgers will get out of them. Beimel has thrown 29 innings and is a decent lefty.

You have seen a lot of discussion of how great Kemp and Ethier have been because it is likely they will be around for a long time.

2006-07-05 14:29:16
187.   LAT
183. Link, did you not get my email? I sent you one around noon PST
2006-07-05 14:35:33
188.   Bluebleeder87
You said >>because he stinks. AND we gave up prospects for him<<

procpects that haven't pand out (from what I've heard) Jackson who? Tiffany? I haven't heard anything positive about him since the trade.

2006-07-05 14:40:35
189.   bobbygrich
Posted by bobbygrich
182 I still believe that one of the problems Baez and to some degree, the rest of the bullpen is the lack of a consistent workload, some of that stems from inconsistent starting pitching from the 3-5 spots but even Lowe and Penny don't last even 6 innings, its hard to stretch a bullpen 3-4 innings a game. But if you look at the splits, you will find that on zero and one day's rest, Baez has been effective.

The other part of the bullpen's woes has been the number of blowouts (4 runs or more either way) this team have been involved in, the Dodgers have been involved in 36 games (Dodgers are 23-13) and I think it takes a certain maturity to pitch in those games.

After reviewing the first half, this team is going to go as far as its offense will take them because the only split that I have found that is a positive for this team thus far is games where they have scored 6 or more runs, they are 31-7, in all other games they are 12-23. They have not played a lot of one run games and after their 1-7 start in those games in April, they are 6-4.

This team is doing things so unlike any Dodger team in not only recent years but in its history, on a pace to score well over 800 runs, hitting .307 at home, over .280 w/runners on base, over .290 with runners in scoring position, which I think explains the problems it will have when facing dominant teams (luckily in the NL, not a real problem). But because they rely on a lot of hits to score, they don't hit home runs and on the pitching mound, unless Penny can go deeper in games, they don't have a dominant starter who can take 2-3 runs and make that stand up.

Summing up, I would feel better if they got a reliable corner outfielder with some pop or a number one starter because that is what they would need to compete in the post season but if that costs too much, they can go to the FA route after the season.

2006-07-05 14:48:47
190.   Linkmeister
183 Hmm. Nope. Try again, willya? Meanwhile I'll go check my gmail account; it's supposed to forward to my Eudora account.
2006-07-05 14:50:31
191.   LAT
184 Tahoe, its not about who Ned gave up. Its about who he brought to the Dodgers and how many games they have cost.

Edwin Jackson and Chuck Tiffany may stink. They may even be worse than Baez and Carter (I doubt it) but they would be toiling in the minors somewhere and would not have cost the Dodgers. Baez has 4 loses and 7 blown saves. He has given up 24 runs in 45 innings. Carter has only one loss but 11 earned runs in 11 innings with an ERA over 8. These clowns have cost the Dodgers at least 12 games. If the Dodgers had won half of those games, they would lead the west by 6 games, not be tied.

2006-07-05 14:52:12
192.   Linkmeister
183 Hmm. It's in my gmail account but not forwarded for unknown reasons. Got it, though; I'll respond in a few minutes.
2006-07-05 14:54:12
193.   Sam DC
184 I have a hard time with the notion that Colletti has shown courage. To me, his moves have been exceedingly safe. Certainly all were designed to please the bomb throwers at the LA Times, and I can't think of a single popular player let go or any short term hits taken for the long term greater good.

I guess Choi had his fans, but saying that it took courage to dump the man, given the way he was characterized in the press and the way he had been treated by the team for the last two years, seems very mistaken.

2006-07-05 14:56:06
194.   Jon Weisman
No one thinks it's a little early to give up on Jackson, Tiffany and Navarro? They have to succeed before they turn 23, or they're done?
2006-07-05 14:57:01
195.   bobbygrich
188 My belief has been that those who don't like that trade and others involving younger players is the philosophy of the deal (although the Bradley deal was criticized because Milton and Antonio were fairly young and they were dealt for not a very toolsy AA prospect). What I mean is that even if Edwin Jackson (currently in Tampa Bay's bullpen) and Chuck Tiffany (been out with an injury since May, I believe) do not pan out, you should be able to get more than a potential free agent "suspect closer" and an "all-star" set up man making about $6.5 MM.

This where the "we don't know what the buzz about these prospects are in baseball" comes in. My guess is that Edwin's ceiling was really low considering his AAA experience and his limited appearances subsequent in LA, he did pitch better in AA last year but he had not progressed as well as hoped, Tiffany had some conditioning issues going back to his signing and his status as an elite prospect was not as high. Elbert, for one, had passed him up.

There were also roster issues to consider with Edwin and Tiffany.

In the end, there are some clubs that don't deal a lot of prospects due to budget concerns (Minnesota, Atlanta and to some degree Oakland), others who deal them for right now (Yankees, Boston, San Francisco) and then those who are in limbo (Angels).

The Dodgers are in a position they I have not seen in my lifetime where they have a multitude of prospects that have upcoming roster issues where they are going to have probably deal some away (and again aside from Jackson, Tiffany, and to some degree, Navarro) Ned has not traded anyone on the Dodgers past couple of years top ten prospect list. Will someone go, probably, will people be upset sure. But he hasn't yet, so until he does, let's wait and see.

2006-07-05 14:57:40
196.   Sam DC
More importantly: Can anyone tell from this radar map if I'm a madman for heading over to RFK in half an hour?

2006-07-05 14:59:47
197.   Bluebleeder87

great point

2006-07-05 15:01:31
198.   Sam DC
193 I shouldn't have said those moves were "designed" to please the hard guys at the Times. My point was that, whatever the baseball merits of the moves, they were going to be well recived by the LA press. They may have been made for all the right reasons, but Colletti wasn't taking any public risks by making them.

Think Navarro had a good game last night v. the Red Sox, if no one else has mentioned.

2006-07-05 15:03:18
199.   Claire Malone-Evans
Last year we had a over- supply of low quaility Ja(y)sons. This year were collecting low cost ex-Giants and Devil Rays. I think Ned The Magic Man will now start making ex-Royals appear. Perhaps a blockbuster deal for Jimmy Gobble. I've heard he is good at eating up innings.
2006-07-05 15:04:52
200.   D4P
Last year we had a over- supply of low quaility Ja(y)sons

Don't think it has been pointed out yet, but Toby Hall's middle name is "Ja(y)son"...

Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2006-07-05 15:06:38
201.   Bluebleeder87

watching that chick dance no way

2006-07-05 15:08:24
202.   bobbygrich
194 The issue with Edwin is that he had to make the big club by next year because he will be out of options, I think that's why Tampa Bay brought him up because they have to see if he can adjust to the bullpen because apparently he can't start.

Tiffany has to be added to the 40-man at the end of this year, his conditioning is still an issue, he probably was no worse than other guys (Diaz, Rodriquez) on the Dodgers 40 man roster but due to the injury he still may need a few more years.

Navarro was dealt because I do think Tampa Bay wanted him, I always believed that they did not want to have two young catchers on the MLB club at that same time. Why is that, I'm not sure except Martin was going to play 80-85% time if healthy and Navarro's value was not going to get better by sitting on the bench.

I think Jackson and Tiffany are two examples about the hazards of drafting high school players, to some degree, they do have to "make it" at an earlier age because when they hit 22-23, they have been in pro ball for 4-5 years and if they don't think they can make it, they need to deal them while they still have value.

2006-07-05 15:08:45
203.   LAT
196. Good luck Sam, your gonna need it with that radar pattern.
2006-07-05 15:08:49
204.   Bluebleeder87

Navarro had a dead end hear, Ned did him a favor with that move.

2006-07-05 15:13:02
205.   LAT
194. Jon, glad to see you finally won the grudge match with that unpatriotic burrito. (At least I am assuming you did if you are posting again. Of course, if you can post from Dodger Stadium, you can surely post from your bathroom, so I may be wrong)
2006-07-05 15:13:22
206.   Greg Brock
194 I got tired of using the Jackson/Tiffany age argument, mostly because people don't want to hear it. Forget that most pitchers don't figure it out until 26/27 years old, they're not great before 25, so, apparently, they're garbage. Most people are pretty taken aback when somebody calls high ceiling kids GARBAGE, but people believe what they believe.
2006-07-05 15:14:19
207.   Johnson
194 Maybe those of us who think it's too early to give up on the Tampa Bay Trio are a little quieter than the rest. I do think that calling them "GARBAGE", any one of them, is premature. I expect Navarro to be a starting catcher somewhere for at least 5 seasons. I think few here believe that Navarro will turn out as good as Martin, but Navarro is clearly an asset. Jackson is a bitter pill because he's never really shown us anything remotely like the game he pitched on his 20th birthday. I probably have the least hope for him of the three, but he is by no means out of chances to succeed. I don't know of anything that has passed since the trade to change Tiffany's status from prospect to washout, even if Elbert had passed him on our depth chart. Plus, it's hard not to root for a guy named "Tiffany". So I would think that Navarro has the most tangible talent of the three, but not a one of them is garbage. (Nor would I consider, by the way, Baez, Carter, Hendrickson, or Hall as garbage. Maybe I'm too charitable.)
2006-07-05 15:16:21
208.   bobbygrich
191 If you are going to count the losses, what about the saves Baez made in April, with Gagne being out, Brazoban being hurt, who was going to be the closer, Broxton, Saito? Sure we could say if they don't make the Seo deal, than Sanchez is here, but then lets play out Spring training where Gagne was saying he was okay all the way to the last weekend, you have a bullpen of Sanchez, Brazoban, and Gagne, Gagne goes down, Brazoban goes down, now you have Sanchez, and maybe Broxton.

I just think you can't look at one set of results and ignore the other. Has it worked out the way Ned thought, probably not, is it possilbe that Baez could turn it around in the second half, sure he could. But to say that the Dodgers would be six games better without the deal, I could say that they would have 3-4 more games in April without him and then who knows what happens to this club.

2006-07-05 15:22:36
209.   Andrew Shimmin
Colletti doesn't owe anybody any favors. And anyway, it's not like Dioner was wasting away in Vegas, he had plenty of things to work on. Next year, and for a year or two after, he could have been the backup. Then when he was 25, or 26, starting to hit what ought to be his peak years, he could have been flipped for something big.

Instead we've got Hendrickson and Hall.

2006-07-05 15:24:17
210.   Jon Weisman
205 - Still under the weather, but I may have falsely accused the burrito, as I found out today that my sister and grandmother also were sick Tuesday. We had a family brunch Sunday, so that appears to have been the culprit.

But it was worth it to get everyone's Burrito Thoughts.


Paul LoDuca, ages 22-24

22 A .821 OPS
23 AA .640 OPS
24 A .780 OPS

Pretty stagnant. Players have setbacks like this often. When you're younger, there's a better chance you can do something about it.

2006-07-05 15:27:56
211.   jasonungar05
Well maybe Ned can do Furcal a favor and trade him away?
2006-07-05 15:28:56
212.   bobbygrich
209 He didn't hit all that well last year considering he was playing in Vegas, I'll admit this year he had a small sample size but he was barely hitting over .200. What if he stays another year and a half and he is still hitting .270 with no power and some defensive issues, you think you are going "flip him" for something then when he has no more options left.

On another note, got this email reply from Will Carroll regarding Andy LaRoche:

I wanted to ask what you thought about Andy LaRoche, top position prospect in AAA. As you may or may not know, he suffered the dreaded slight tear in his labrum and after taking a couple weeks off, he is back playing.

Based on your article in 2004, it appears that surgery is really a last resort, and I am guessing that they are doing some rehab and exercise regimen to deal with it, it also appears that some like Glaus, will regain his power stroke while others like Shawn Green, never got it back.

Is there anything I and other Dodger fans should look for regarding LaRoche's injury from this point on. Thanks for all the great work.

Will's reply:
Exactly -- this is one I know Goldstein is watching. It's sadly a wait and see for me.

2006-07-05 15:31:57
213.   Marty
After reading about Linkmeister's one degree of seperation from Sam and LAT, I'm halfway convinced two long-lost brothers are going to be reunited on this site before all is said and done. I just hope Midas isn't one of them :)
2006-07-05 15:47:00
214.   Andrew Shimmin
212- As a 21 year old, last year, in Vegas he put up this line:
241 AB .266/.366/.390

Vegas or no, that's good for a 21 year old catcher in AAA.

His LA stats this year were:
75 AB .280/.372/.387

Or we could look at 40 rehab ABs. There's always reason to worry whether a prospect might not pan out. But if you cave in to it, you end up dealing a 22 year old catcher for Hendrickson and Hall.

Look, what's the worst that could have happened? We'd have had a subpar backup catcher. Assuming we don't right now, how could that possibly be worth trading in the lottery ticket?

2006-07-05 15:51:52
215.   Greg Brock
One thing, though: easy on the hatred. Reading comments over and over again about how much you hate this player or that gets a little tired. That so-and-so's presence is not the end of the world.

I think I remember reading that somewhere.

2006-07-05 15:53:02
216.   natepurcell
The trade talks for Sal Fasano are going to be put on hold until his knee gets better :(
2006-07-05 16:00:15
217.   Greg Brock
Nate, the Sal Fasano thing is getting very near "It puts the lotion in the basket" territory.

I can respect that.

2006-07-05 16:00:22
218.   Bluebleeder87

I don't know if you mean it sarcasticly, But Furcal can't sniff Izzy's glove when it comes to D.

2006-07-05 16:04:00
219.   LAT
208. I am giving Baez credit for his 4 winns, otherwise we would be four games out of first place. The point is he should have been better than 4-4 with 7 blown saves. He was not supposed to stink and he does. I think Duener could have done better. Broxton definitly would have been better. The good news is I'm not sure Baez really is this bad and hopefully we will get a better second half from him.
2006-07-05 16:05:58
220.   bobbygrich
214 I don't hate Navarro, but I do think that sometimes we get some hung up on "ceilings" we forget that there is a reason why these guys are called prospects.

Toby Hall had better numbers in his AAA stop for Tampa Bay before he came up, now after starting for the Devil Rays, we have a pretty good idea what kind of player he is going to be, decent average, makes contact, some power and very good throwing arm.

Dionner maybe a younger version of all that which is why Tampa Bay probably wanted him, not that save that much money but every little bit helps.

The one thing on using Loduca as an example of patience, obviously he was someone that not only the Dodgers waited on but the rest of baseball did too considering he had to be available as minor league free agent at some point but no one looked at him until he made the team.

The strange thing is the three catcher system, now for all I know Sandy maybe a pretty good option as a RH PH but I think as Repko, Ledee, Tomko and maybe Gagne come back, he will be one of the first on the list to go.

2006-07-05 16:06:29
221.   Bluebleeder87
when is Jon gonna say "new thread up above?" just curious.
2006-07-05 16:07:23
222.   natepurcell

hahaha. I laugh everytime I watch that part and basically all the parodies of it.

another pretty funny part is in the other Hannibal Lector movie, Red Dragon, where the Red Dragon shows the guy all his tats and is like "DO YOU SEE!?!? NOW DO YOU SEE!?!?!"

soutpark made a great parody on that.

2006-07-05 16:10:11
223.   Jon Weisman
221 - When I can't think of anything insightful to say, I go silent. Just having a hard time getting my act together. And feeling pretty bad about it too.
2006-07-05 16:11:10
224.   Greg Brock
Nate: It puts the hair cream on it's 'stache, or else it gets the hose again.

Sal: Mister, I'm glad you like me, but I really want to get home to my family.

Nate: It puts the hair cream in the basket

Sal: Mister, I'm just a backup catcher with manly facial hair, please let me go. I'll sign an autograph if you want

Nate: Put the #$#@%$ hair cream in the basket!

2006-07-05 16:11:58
225.   jasonungar05
No, I wasnt joking at all. The best thing for the dodgers is for someone (other than Ned)to trade Furcal for a starting pitcher, center fielder or a third baseman with pop. Move Izzy to SS and never bat him anything other than 8th.

And hey, I am a charter member of the Sal's Pals fan club.

2006-07-05 16:13:31
226.   bobbygrich
219 I agree that Baez should be better, I just think to blame on all the ills of the Dodgers on him with all of the other problems is going a bit too far.

As an LA fan, there are three tough acts to follow:
1. John Wooden's UCLA Basketball teams (Coach Howland maybe the first hope to bring some consistency to the program in a long time).
2. Showtime Lakers, never ever will there be a team so fun and yet deliver championship performance year after year.
3. Eric "Game Over" Gagne 2002-2004. Eric led a bullpen to unbelievable heights that will never be seen again. Sure blowing 6-7 games (a few of those were 7th and 8th inning set ups) is not good but realistically you are going to lose a few but for those 3 years, you could not only bank on the win, you knew it wouldn't be close.

2006-07-05 16:15:37
227.   Johnson
218 Furcal can't sniff Izzy's glove when it comes to D

When it comes to Spinal Tap, on the other hand...

2006-07-05 16:15:59
228.   Bluebleeder87

like writers block? I dought it your too smart bro.

2006-07-05 16:17:10
229.   Jon Weisman
It's not writer's block. Just fatigue.
2006-07-05 16:17:45
230.   natepurcell

hahaha. You just gave me a great idea Greg.

2006-07-05 16:17:49
231.   Greg Brock
227 Nicely done. I was praying with every fiber of my being that Jeff Samardzija would be a compensatory pick, just so I could say "Shark Sandwich" pick.
2006-07-05 16:24:48
232.   Linkmeister
213 Marty, maybe I should look at the staff directory for your employer, too.
2006-07-05 16:32:20
233.   LAT
226. Ok. Then lets give him credit for the 4 wins and 9 saves, also credit for the 4 loses and the 7 blown saves. That is 24 impact opportunites. He has converted half and blown half. I'm not suggesting he should be Gagne, Rivera, Hoffman or Smoltz. But If he had only blown three instead of seven and lost 2 instead of four, we would be comfortably ahead in the division. I pick on him for two reasons. (1) In my estimation, he has single handedly cost the Dodgers more games than anyone else. (2) He was supposed to be upper tier, not Gagne, but upper tier. Sure we all knew Tomko would suck, the only issue was how badly. No one dreamed Baez would cost the Dodgers so much not in terms of prospects or value but in terms of wins. Of course I expect a closer to blow games--just not half of them.
2006-07-05 16:34:29
234.   JoeyP
I just think to blame on all the ills of the Dodgers on him

No one is.
There's still plenty of blame for Brett Tomko and Jae Seo too.

2006-07-05 16:35:10
235.   Linkmeister
For those wondering "what is this BHCC of which LAT and Link speak?" here's the website:

2006-07-05 16:38:30
236.   JoeyP
Sure we all knew Tomko would suck, the only issue was how badly.

Thats why I had more of a problem with the Tomko signing. Everyone knew he'd suck, but Colletti still signed him. It was just ridiculously stupid. No upside at all with his signing. Thats how I feel about Hendrickson as well.

With Baez, at least there was a chance he could be a worthwhile reliever. Certainly not at the cost for which he was bought, but I still hate the Tomko move the most.

2006-07-05 16:43:07
237.   Bluebleeder87

not in a million years will I set foot on it (too poor)

2006-07-05 16:50:08
238.   JoeyP
I don't hate Navarro, but I do think that sometimes we get some hung up on "ceilings" we forget that there is a reason why these guys are called prospects.

I think you are undervaluing Navarro when you still refer to him as a prospect.
Navarro has 272ABs at the MLB level.
He has a line of .283/.367/.393

Martin has 172Abs at the MLB level, and he's also a year older than Navarro. Do you still think of Martin as a prospect?
He has a line of .297/.366/.448

Would you have been upset if Russell Martin was traded for Mark Hendrickson? Of course you'd be.
But how much difference is there between Russell Martin and Dioner Navarro?

The problem is that there isnt alot of difference so far. However, 1 guy was thought of as being an untouchable and would only be traded for a Miguel Cabrera type, and the other is referred to as garbage, and was traded for Mark Hendrickson.

That doesnt add up.

2006-07-05 16:52:18
239.   LAT
236. Fuuny, I feel a little diffrently. I held out hope that Tomko would be an upside suprise like Sele. When he didn't deliver I figured we got what we expected. Downside suprises like Baez or Seo (even Furcal) are far more frustrating and tougher (at least for me) to deal with.
2006-07-05 16:54:25
240.   Bluebleeder87

there D

2006-07-05 16:55:06
241.   Jon Weisman
New thread up above.
2006-07-05 16:55:14
242.   Bluebleeder87
Any of you think the Dodgers will have a wrestling match today? or atleast a verbal exchange?
2006-07-05 16:55:23
243.   Andrew Shimmin
220- I didn't think you hated Navarro. You seem far too reasonable for that.

You know that show with Howie Mandel, with the suitcases full of money? I don't watch it, but there are these suitcases full of money. The player picks one at a time, and as that suitcase's ammount is taken off the board, the House makes a bid on what buying out the player's chance at the big prize is worth. Selling Dioner for Hendrickson and Hall is like taking the fifty dollar first bid, on the theory that, hey, it's fifty bucks more than you hade before the game, and there's no way to tell whether the bid would ever be higher. Maybe the bid never would be higher, but taking the fifty bucks is an abomination.

2006-07-05 16:55:25
244.   jasonungar05
Did u guys read that Navarro was in a car accident. He is fine, but do the google search and you will see.
2006-07-05 16:57:51
245.   JoeyP
Yeah thats why he isnt playing tonite. He flipped his SUV.
2006-07-05 17:03:39
246.   bobbygrich
238 I never said Navarro was garbage, partly because I don't think Hendrickson and Hall are garbage. And wasn't comparing Martin and Navarro in saying who would I include in a deal and who I wouldn't.

But, there are a number of people who make it their job, Baseball America, John Sickels, Baseball Prospectus and the like who have liked Martin more than Navarro and said as much for the last few years. These folks are not Plaschke wannabees, they shouldn't have any bias so I do value their opinions but then I have to look at the players myself too.

I agree to disagree on this deal, but I don't want anyone to think I think Navarro is garbage, I just think he was never going to displace Martin in the near future and he wasn't going to force the issue by becoming the next Johnny Bench in the minors. And I do think that having a defensive minded former starting catcher on the bench is a better situation than having two young catchers with less than a full year in the big leagues vying for playing time.

2006-07-05 17:09:33
247.   Andrew Shimmin
His wife and baby were in the car, too. Nobody seriously hurt. The driver who clipped him fled the scene. Which is pretty much exactly what the public hanging was invented for, I think.
2006-07-05 21:05:59
248.   scareduck
Man, that was a nice catch.

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