Well that didn't work did it?

No.

I think the Dodgers should have batted the guy in the class action suit ad.

These are the hot summer nights I love. It's quiet, except for Vin's smooth tones, and high drama on the field.

Extra innings, late at night, and a hint of cool night's breeze filling the room.

The family has gone to bed, and I'm in a trance with the sounds of baseball quietly filling the living room downstairs.

If it wasn't unmanly to do so, I think I'd cry right about here.

I really thought they were gonna win this one, finally getting a few breaks, and then all the breaks switched sides. Sigh.

Well, gotta go to bed. Gotta wake up early to "I Got You Babe" on the radio.

Well, that's 3:39 that you'll never get back.

If Cruz and Martinez could learn how to say "I got it" a little louder...

we'd be going to the 12th.

Lose 2 more, and maybe we can all breathe easier about all the prospects staying.

I cant imagine buying when your 7 games out.

7 -- What happened with Cruz and Martinez?

And so it goes...

How did the Dodgers manage to win that one game in Arizona?

The pop fly double that was hit in the 11th fell between them. Cruz (CF) shied away at the last minute because Martinez was like a runaway train after it.

If we hadn't won that game in Arizona, we would now have lost 12 in row, breaking the L.A. consecutive game loss mark of 10...

did they collide?

10 - Billingsley pitched 7 scoreless frames.

11 -- That makes this loss even more painful. I'm here in no-radio, no-TV land...

13 Nope, but it was close. We'll never know if Cruz could have caught it, but I was always taught the CF had the right-of-way.

9 Just a bloop hit that landed between them - Martinez tried to over the shoulder it, Cruz tried to dive for it but pulled up at the last moment to avoid hitting Martinez and it fell between them. Looked like Cruz was annoyed with Martinez. They should have communicated better though it wasn't an easy play.

oh well they caught a break on that Sledge sludge in the outfield that was somehow ruled a double. Honestly that's what they need a few more of is breaks - that's what turns losing streaks into winning streaks.

8 Even if they start winning again I'm not worried - I think most if not all those guys are pretty safe at this point anyway. At least the guys I'd worry about losing...

nice to see those two make up for it at the plate. oh wait ...

In conclusion:

Sell sell sell! Let someone else win the division!

17 - and then get swept in the first round by the Cardinals.

A lot of people are assuming that even if the Dodgers were sellers (which they're not, I don't think) that any of these vets like Cruz, Ledee, Saenz (who I wouldn't want to see go anyway), Lofton, etc would be of interest to anyone.

But at this point I do think we already are letting someone else win the division. ;-) (You'd still be surprised how fast things can turn around - in a hurry)

I'm going to go to bed on that pollyanna-ish note. Night!

I just read that the Dodgers (0-6) are the only team in the majors this season winless in extra innings.

A lot of people are assuming that even if the Dodgers were sellers (which they're not, I don't think) that any of these vets like Cruz, Ledee, Saenz (who I wouldn't want to see go anyway), Lofton, etc would be of interest to anyone.

We sold alomar.
Everyone has some value, just some have very little value.
Just sell to open roster spots for loney, laroche, aybar (kent coming back demotes aybar), and maybe kemp.
I agree that we should keep saenz.

In theory, the Dodgers could win the wildcard and instead get swept by the Mets in the first round.

Went to the game tonight. A couple of observations: First, the scoreboard said the HR given up by Broxton was on a 89mph change-up. Is there even such a thing? If so, I guess one man's change-up is another man's fastball cause Gio's fast ball never broke 86. In any event, if it was a 89mph change-up Martin takes the heat for calling such a pitch.

Worse though is Jose Cruz. Why is he still on this team? He can't hit. He can't field, yet Grady loves him. I have to say Cruz is Depo's biggest failing. Just release him.

Finally, Drew. I haven't read the game thread but his 0-5 performance, his inablity to even move runners over must have some posters screaming bloody murder. He must be injured, he looks completly lost. Injury is the only explination.

Other than that it was hot. It felt like it actually got hotter as the night went on. Its time for the weather and the Dodger's fortunes to change.

Sam, I saw your response to my question about RFK re-opening. Thanks for the info. I look forward to any additonal thoughts you might have.

DePo didnt resign Cruz.
That would be Kim Ng.

The problem with Cruz is that he's a platoon OF'er, being treated as a starter. He's basically an Olmedo Saenz, strict platoon type of player. But the Dodgers management really really messed up when they thought Lofton in CF, and Cruz in LF were going to be majority of the time players. That was a very poor calculation, considering the histories of each.

My recollection of accounts is that Depo signed Cruz. If Ng backed him, that's logical. She also guzzled the $24 million kool-aid on Odalis.
Bringing back Cruz is one thing, but they basically flushed about $3 million. You could have gotten him for $800,000 or so. Low-pressure September achievement from a chronic underachiever who has health and makeup issues shouldn't yield the money he got from the Dodgers, but there you go.
I'm sure someone will say it's no big deal to blow $3 million but the overspending adds up and ultimately has destroyed the payroll advantage the Dodgers have over their rivals.
Fascinating to read tonight's game posts and Drew gets another free ride after giving away at-bat after at-bat. For the second year in a row, he's returning far less value than his guaranteed salary.
Disagree with the many posts here over the past few months that Drew might opt out because some other club might give him more than the $33 million owed him. No GM alive would match that amount, unless some club hires Kevin Malone.

26 Cruz was resigned on 11/4. DePo was fired on 10/29. DePo may have had some influence on the resigning (as in he may have had some discussions with Ng and White) but I think that hanging the extension on him is incorrect.

since I"m too depressed to talk about the game, I have another rant:

is anyone else sick and tired of espn reporting stuff as being "done" when it's not? This has only been going on the last couple years and it's driving me up the wall. Tonight it was the Soriano deal....last year Burnett to the O's was reported just about every day as being "done" and it never was. Last week they said Bonds would be indicted the next day...didn't happen.

They just need to get it together...saying things are being talked about is fine. Rumors are fun. But to continually say stuff is done when it's not is really, really irritating.

I know, my emphasis on defense is tiresome to many here, and I truly apologize if it grates the nerves, but Aybar's defensive ineptitude was crucial to the loss and a review is instructive.

Willy gave the Padres three extra outs, which led to at least one run and caused Lowe to expend quite a bit of fuel, which added stress to the bullpen, which was unable to match the bullpen depth of the Padres, who, even with the blunder by Sledge, played a better defensive game that preserved fuel for their pitchers.

First came Aybar booting a routine grounder by Roberts to open the game, setting up the first run.
In the second, Aybar was slow and soft on the pivot, below-average work that denied Lowe a doubleplay and allowed San Diego's 6-10 sore-footed pitcher to bat with two out, which meant Roberts got to lead off the third, and he singled and scored.
In the sixth, Aybar boxed a sumptuous doubleplay grounder struck by Gonzalez, a dangerous hitter who happens to be sun-dial slow. So the Dodgers get only one out from that gift, when mere pedestrian work gets them two.
So Lowe has to face the next hitter, Greene, who hits a lot of home runs. Lowe got him, but the next inning, he ran out of gas with two out.
So Broxton comes in and gives up the three-run home run.
If one of you lads can come up with a stat that captures the damage caused by Aybar's defensive failures, bully for you. Not likely.
Not picking on Aybar here, per se. No one's followed him more closely or spoke for him more than I did last winter when he got lost in the prospects discussions.
Am picking on whoever put him at 2B. The kid's best position is 3B and thinking you can turn him into a 2B is a reach, an egregious one if these games actually matters.
As I've said many times, Willy lacks the footwork to play a good 2B. Royster, who knows a few things about the positon and Aybar, said as much several time.
Izturis is a Gold Glove-caliber 2B. With Kent out, Aybar should be at 3B and Izzy at third. That's if the games matter and if helping the pitchers matters. If you want to go all Devil Ray and forcefeed auditions that are unlikely to succeed and will exasperate and further wear down the pitchers, go for it. Put Willy there and fantasize about how his bat is better there.

28--

Yeah, I'm tired of it. Amid the euphoria in Florida after the 2003 World Series, Gammons said public funding for a new park in South Florida was "done" when in fact it was a power play to get a gullible citizenry to hand million to the Marlins.
Of course, it wasn't "done."

The kid's best position is 3B and thinking you can turn him into a 2B is a reach, an egregious one if these games actually matters.

Thats just the point. These games do not matter. Accept that the Dodgers arent good enough this year, and develop these younger players. Aybar has a 2nd base bat. If he's going to be a productive player, its going to be at 2nd base. You play him there the whole season, and watch to see if he can improve. You dont jack him around between AA and AAA, and have him trying out at different positions.

Izturis is a Gold Glove-caliber 2B.

How many innings has Izturis played at 2nd base in his career? I think its a little early to proclaim Izzy GG caliber at a position he's never played.

Izzy has no bat. Not at SS, not at 2nd, not at 3rd. He's the utility if'er, not Aybar.

Baseball Prospectus would disagree with Dsfan's opinion of Willy Aybar's best defensive positions.

49 games at 3b- Rate2 of 88
19 games at 2b- Rate2 of 110

The key in all of this is that Aybar needs more time to definitively judge him defensively. With the Dodgers in last place, the time is now.

I don't share your premise that the games do not matter. The Astros and Marlins overcame far greater July obstacles to reach the playoffs (and World Series) in recent years. But if that's your belief, I am less opposed to your point of view -- though it still rates as longshot experiment that adds strain to the pitchers, which has harmful long-term effects.

Incorrect that 2B is a position that Izzy has "never played."

He played there some in the minors, and he played 42 games (309 innings) of 2B in the majors. Not a big fan of range factor or zone rating -- his were pretty good, not great, better than Gold Glovers such as Roberto Alomar and Bret Boone, not as good as Hairston Jr. and Easley.

Given his experience there and excellence at SS, reasonable to asusme he would be very good at 2B. Would it be harder on his reconstructive elbow than 3B? Doubtful, but would like to know from the Dodgers.

Joey, maybe BP can come up with a stat on the damage Aybar caused tonight at 2B? Call it the zone-2B-out, sabotage-the-pitching staff, boost your first-place rival stat.

25

Little isn't treating Cruz as a starter. Hasn't been for quite some time.

Cruz, by the way, got a terrible jump on the Barfield popup that went for a double.

dsfan,

the problem is you're using tonight's game as an example..you can't do that with one game.

here's the thing: how many errors made by someone like Aybar lead to runs, and in turn, how many of those runs are costing us the entire game?

It's probably not that many. Not to mention, his bat MORE than makes up for it. Sure Izzy can make some great defensive plays, but he's a black hole at the plate. I'd much rather have an average defensive player who can put up numbers at the plate than a great defensive player who is a black hole. Those guys are utility guys like JT Snow. Izzy really is just a defensive replacement guy...he's basically Royce Clayton. Would you want Royce Clayton on this team? I sure wouldn't.

37 - This is ridiculous!! Izzy is an offensive black hole?!?!

He had a great year in 2004, and before getting injured in 2005 was even better!

You don't think IZZY has the offensive numbers to play 2nd base?

Izturis tied the club record help by BILL RUSSELL for most doubles in a season by a shortstop in 2004 and was on his way to destroying that in 2005.

I realize he is no power hitter, but he can generate some offense, especially considering the runs he takes away in the infield.

We can call it the "Honorary Don Quixote Windmill Tilting" stat.

And LAT, with all due respect, you are up in the night if you think Cruz is anybody's biggest mistake. Cruz is a mistake, no doubt, just like about 90% of this team, but as D4P recently demonstrated, there is no meaningful difference between him and Kenny Lofton's offensive output. Meanwhile, geez, how many major league atbats did grabowski get?

Izturis is going to make a lot of money replaying Juan Castro's career, either for us or someone else. I'm virtually beyond caring about this issue. We'll get what we deserve on it, just as we do when Tampa Bay comes knocking at our door with the Brooklyn Bridge.

Izzy had 193 hits in 2004 at the age of 24. With his fielding skills he deserves more chances to start. Not to many players in the history of baseball have had 190 plus hits in a season at the age of 24 and then become a utility player before reach 27 years old.

Exploiting my time zone advantage, I can beat The Griddle in reporting that ESPN has fired Harold Reynolds, presumably for advocating that the Yankees trade A-Rod.

OK, there may be a different reason.

And LAT -- check out comment 72 in last night's game thread (7/24).

The Post's wonderful national baseball writer Dave Sheinin has a thoughtful look at the business of Bonds today (SF in town this week). It's a long piece, so I feel comfortable quoting the first couple of paragraphs:

So, how much money have you made off Barry Bonds? If you are the San Francisco Giants' owners, perhaps the number is in the hundreds of millions of dollars. If you are the Giants' radio or television rights-holders, perhaps in the tens of millions. If you are a longtime teammate, your twice-monthly paycheck proof of the franchise's Bonds-built prosperity, maybe it's in the millions. The lawyers, the agents, the personal trainers, the BALCO boys, the memorabilia dealers, the authors, the freelancers, the kayakers, the local bar and hotel owners, the commissioner of baseball -- the Barry Bonds era has been good to all your bottom lines.

And someday, perhaps soon, it will be over.

In the winter of Barry Bonds's career, there is unease throughout. The delicate dance that often occurs between a fading star and his franchise over the future of their relationship is even more complicated in this case, because he is Barry Bonds, and everyone here must grapple with a Faustian equation -- how much money he has made for them vs. how much of their souls it has cost them. . . .

http://tinyurl.com/plhz4

Or, if it's more to your tase, there's a live online chat with Jewel at 10 am Pacific.

er, taste.

And the Bonds piece is the second in the Post this week to use OPS in describing a player's value.

With his fielding skills he deserves more chances to start.

Like I said last night, if we're all going to insist that Izturis start, then why don't we trade Fur-kel, who is as useless as [insert colorful simile here], using the Renteria-for-Marte trade as a template. Then Izturis can ride his Neifian prodigiousness all the way to the Hall of Fame

And I realize that will require eating some cash. That is what those of us who don't eat at the Hotel Bel-Air call "the joys of home ownership."

Recent Olmedo at-bats vs. RHP:

grounded out to shortstop
reached on error
grounded out to shortstop
struck out swinging
doubled to deep center
grounded out to shortstop
grounded out to third
grounded out to third
grounded into double play (2B)

On. Fire.

46 He's gone one for nine. Who cares?

Only one poster seems to recognize that the wild card is still very much in play. The Dodgers will not be sellers and the prospects should still be jumpy if they want to remain Dodgers. About a month ago the Angels were in last place and declared dead in the water and a terrible team after their bad stretch. One month later they look like the class of the division. Cold players get hot, things change. This is a terrible spell and the team looks lost but things could change in a hurry if JD got as hot as he's been cold. Anyway I know most of you want us to lose so that we can dump the vet's but since most of you only watch the game via gametracker and don't spend any money on the team I have a feeling Ned doesn't care much for your opinions since he's trying to putt butts in the ballpark for the rest of the year.

I'm just glad that someone else has noticed the insanely angry businessman who's been added to someone's "Alltel My Circle" without his consent.

The only way that guy could be more unsettling would be if the ad were for a proctologist.

Give me a break.

48. Putting butts sounds like some kind of bizarre form of sexual harassment that could get Ned fired, are you sure he's interested in that?

8

I think we're 5.5 back, we can still win the west.JMO.

"We're only ___5.5___ games back"

I think in the NL West, we're fine unless we lose the next two games. We split, 5.5 is certainly doable. The Dodgers win, only 3.5 back. It's way too soon for predictions of doom being 5.5 back with over two months to play.

39

Great observation.

baseball is a funny game, anything can happen.

56 Indeed. Who's to say?

Happy Birthday Torey Lovullo (thx 6-4-2).

Sigh.

I really don't see how Furcal can still be called useless, though I can see the argument that continuing to keep he and Izturis together, especially for the long haul would be useless. Furcal's a far superior hitter though, and obviously a superior basestealer (except for the occasional mental lapse, like last night), and he's been starting to show that over the past month. At least he's getting on base, which is more than you can say about Izturis at this point. Defensively obviously Izzy is better, but Furcal is better than he's shown the Dodgers the first half of the season, too.

I know we're all looking for scapegoats which is understandable given this horrible slump but it's pretty much a collective effort, or lack thereof, that has doomed them from game to game - with a few bright spots here and there. Ethier was one last night.

The following people have not stunk since the All Star Break:

Ethier (.904 OPS)
Saenz (.929)
Martin (.763)
Ledee (.800)

Since the All Star Break:

Penny (6.17 ERA)
Lowe (6.35)
Perez (8.44)
Sele (10.00)

Mmm, yeah, Furcal hasn't been as hot as I thought he was - he was hotter just before the break. Though he's still making stuff happen. The ERAs are particularly scary (except Perez - isn't that an improvement? ;-) )

Btw, re the question about Broxton's pitch that Cameron hit out, it looked like a hanging fastball to me, but maybe it was a change up. At any rate it was the wrong location to throw Cameron, would have been the perfect spot to throw one low and away. That call sort of looked like what may occasionally happen when you have a rookie battery.

D4P, on the 25 man roster, are there as many as 5 players that you don't despise? And any front office members? Don't mean to call you out but jeez, you are just so full of venom for seemingly every player on the team, I just wonder if you actually like the team in any meaningful way.

Chan Ho Park tonight, another former Dodger that will either get clobbered or shut us down completely - which, during this streak, is the more likely scenario. Doesn't he throw mostly fastballs still, with occasional offspeed? Seems like the kind of pitcher the Dodgers line up should hit hard but I dunno right now. Be nice if Hendrickson pitched a good game... sigh... I think I'm gonna go to the movies tonight instead.

I think there are posters here who despise even more players than that right now. Hopefully a lot of the vinegar will evaporate if the team just wins a few games...

25 Probably not fair to pin Him on Ng. The offer was probably made by DePo and was still on the table after he was fired. The club might have thought they had a legal obligation to honor the contract. More to the point, it was a good contract at the time. The Jose Cruz who played for us last August and September was worth what he was offered; the Jose Crud who came out this year most definitely isn't. It looks like he isn't putting as much effort into it as he did last year. I have a hard time believing any athlete conciously does that but we commonly see similar drop-offs in the midst of multi-year contracts so it just happens to some people at a sub-concious level, not deliberately at all. I was a big advocate for signing Cruz last year but I'm number one boy for getting rid of him now.
Overall, We still have a chance to win the division this year. From what I've seen us do and the other clubs also, any one of us could be on top come October. The odds are 4 to 1 against us and every other club in the division. And the reward for winning the division is an A-- Kicking from the Cardinals. If we had made a move to get stronger a month ago, I might feel we'd have a better chance of winning and maybe going a little farther in the playoffs. But now, if we don't take this opportunity to dump some garbage and get some long term improvement, we can hunker down for a long stretch of mediocrity. Flanders, with his Giant and Cub background, sees that as acceptable. Dodger fans don't. Dump the garbage, let's see what we really have down on the farm...

If drew is injured, just put him on the DL and don't activate him until he is 100% ready, same goes for kent, we need both healthy for next season, this season is over, get ready for 2007 by getting guys healthy and giving prospects some valuable at bats/innings right now this season.

On a positive note: I think tomko to the bullpen is going to be a positive, just like it was a positive for gagne, i'm not saying tomko will become gagne, but i bet tomko becomes a decent reliever.

26 DSFAN, you say Cruz has some makeup issues. I have been thinking the same thing, although I'm not quite sure in what context you are thinking that.

48 J D Drew will not be getting hot. Stick a fork in him...

I truly don't understand those who say the season is over. It's not only that we're only ___ games out. It's that it's JULY and although we may not be a powerhouse we are as good as any team in the division. We are looking terrible right now. Does anybody remember how bad the Angels looked the series we swept at DS? Checked where they are in the standings this morning? That series, as long ago as it was, is closer to todays date than is the last day of this season.
It's far, far from over.

70 No. It's over.

While such a long stretch of losses is certainly unlikely even for a team playing poorly, a good stretch like the Angels or Twins have experienced is equally, if not more unlikely. Just because a team goes on a losing streak doesn't mean they're due for a winning streak.

I expect the Dodgers to play to their ability the rest of the way out, and that means .500 ball from here to the end of September; clearly not good enough to win the Division.

It's not so much the number of games they trail by as the number of teams they need to pass to get to first place.

Plus, there's no real mystery to what happened to the Angels. Jeff, gone. Jered, here. At least, that's what Gameday told me happened.

71. Oh, my mistake.

For Nate

Dopey video tribute to Sal.
http://www.misschatter.com/janf/

Big Jewel chat starting up.
http://tinyurl.com/rm5vx

47 - "He's gone one for nine. Who cares?"

Touche?

Hmmmm . . . Jewel is delayed. Lots of souls need saving, apparently. I'll let you know when she starts up.

New post up top.

70 It's not that anyone believes, empirically, that the season is over. It's because they want it to be over. If we can't be as good as the best team, this thinking goes, we might as well go into full rebuild mode. The veterans are...old. So they've gotta go.

My response is: We've got a rookie right fielder, a rookie catcher, a rookie in our starting rotation, and a rookie high on the bullpen depth chart. The glass is more than half-full! Ethier, Martin, Billingsley and Broxton are ready for prime time. The others, with one possible exception, are not.

If Matt Kemp hadn't gone into a damaging slump, he'd be playing centerfield most games, right now, and Lofton would be trade bait. I guarantee that neither Colletti nor Little are dumb enough to start Lofton over Kemp if they didn't think Kemp needed more work in the minors. To have him "work out his problems" swinging and missing major league curveballs for the next two months would be malpractice.

Likewise, the comment someone made about Aybar's poor footwork at second base. Just "leave him out there?" That's ignorant. Derek Lowe and Brad Penny are trying to win major league ballgames. What could be worse for Aybar's development and confidence than to subject him to the scorn of competitive major league pitchers for blowing their win opportunities with klutzy fielding?

If you think Aybar has a future with the Dodgers, you want him back in AAA as soon as Kent returns. You can "leave him out there" in Vegas every day, and he will probably learn something. In LA, all he'll "learn" is that he has no business wearing a major league uniform. You might think that's investing in the future, but it's actually killing the future.

I think a case could be made for Loney, but an equally strong case can be made that he's better off building his confidence in Vegas, coming into Spring Training next year with a sense that he belongs. By Spring Training, we'll also have Nomar's role worked out -- third baseman, ex-Dodger or whatever. You can't really argue that our best offensive player, who has a one-year contract, is "blocking" Loney in 2006. A GM who thought that way would be sharkbait.

I like the sabermetric thinking around here, but it seems to be abandoned in favor of "who's to say?" thinking when it comes to the prospects. Everyone who is excited about the Dodgers' future prospects ought to calm the *$&%^ down. Going into this season, no one was predicting much more than Billingsley and Broxton for 2006. We're already ahead of schedule. Relax!

It all comes down to this. Are the Dodgers good enough to win the division? I think so, its possible. Are they good enough to beat the Cardinals in the postseason? As mentioned earlier by others, probably not.

Now, some people feel the Dodgers should trade away some of the older or less talented players (Lofton, Cruz, etc.). However, this raises the question of what value of return the Dodgers would receive. If they trade away those players, how talented would the prospects be? I think the biggest reward for trading them away would be that it would create space on the roster for some more players from the farm. Personally, I see the offseason as a time for bigger trades than this week. Too many teams are in contention to trade away their top players.