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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
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No Shame in Trading for the Future
2006-07-27 11:25
by Jon Weisman

A case for having the option ... my latest at

Out here in Los Angeles, the Dodgers have infamously won only one playoff game since 1988. But they've been in contention for a playoff berth nearly every season, especially before the non-waiver trading deadline. Not surprisingly, the team has consistently been what you would call a "buyer" that entire time. And it has pretty much gotten them nowhere except a steady jog on the also-ran's treadmill.

This year's team was considered by many the favorite to win the National League West but has now lost 13 of its past 14 games, its worst two weeks since a franchise-record 16-game losing streak in 1944. That's right -- 62 years! And yet with their deficit a barely surmountable 7 1/2 games, the question remains, are fans willing to let the front office start waiting 'til next year, now?

News flash to the executives: On message boards Wednesday throughout Los Angeles, a popular answer was yes.

Buy or sell. That's the traditional trading deadline dilemma. It's an intellectual discussion that disguises a battle of machismo. If you're a seller, you're a loser. You're walking away from the fight.

But even if you're walking away from a fight that you can win, maybe you can still walk tall. ...

* * *

Also today, Nate Silver of Baseball Prospectus looks at how acquiring Alfonso Soriano or Carlos Lee would affect the Dodgers' playoff chances (among other teams).

"We can quantify the impact of picking up a player like Soriano by comparing his projected MLVr to that of the players whom he'd be replacing," Silver writes.

For example, here's the effect of Carlos Lee replacing Kenny Lofton, according to Silver:

Carlos Lee (+.159 runs/game) + Kenny Lofton (-.047 runs/game) = +.206 runs/game, x 58 games remaining = 11.9 runs added, = 1.19 wins added

(I don't do the math; I just report it.)

Silver then goes on to examine the impact of a player producing one additional win for the remainder of the season on a team's playoff probability. The Dodgers had a 9.6 percent chance of making the playoffs at the time Silver wrote the article, according to BP - a player like Lee would up that probability to approximately 15 percent.

"Even for a team like the White Sox that could desperately use another star player," Silver concludes, "the market price for one of these outfielders should be a second- or third-tier prospect, and not much more."

* * *

Finally, you might enjoy participating in this rate-your-ballpark survey.

Comments (463)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2006-07-27 11:31:45
1.   thinkingblue
That's what Bill Plaschke doesn't get.
2006-07-27 11:32:24
2.   Frip
It would be an act of gross negligence to sacrifice the future for the hopeless present.
2006-07-27 11:40:26
3.   Johnson
Great article, Jon.

Just curious, but it seems that a lot of your SI columns that I've read (if not all) take things from a Dodgers point-of-view. Is this a natural function of your bias, or does SI want it that way, as a de facto Dodgers column?

2006-07-27 11:43:42
4.   Jacob L
Note to GMs of teams in contention (e.g. not the Dodgers):

Pay no attention to this Nate Silver character. Kenny Lofton's veteran leadership, basestealing, and slick centerfield play will put you over the top.

2006-07-27 11:45:49
5.   D4P
And that argument with Brad Penny was all Penny's fault. Just ask Bill Plaschke.
2006-07-27 11:47:25
6.   Jon Weisman
3 - It's a good question - what I've found is that they have so many East Coast writers, they like to get more West Coast stuff. Not just Dodgers, necessarily, but this general area. So to answer your last question, it's both.
2006-07-27 11:52:44
7.   the OZ
Jon, I'm bitterly disappointed that you offered sound advice to the Giants' front office in this piece.
2006-07-27 11:54:42
8.   bobbygrich
I agree with Jon, especially with the wild card, to be labeled either buyers or sellers does a disservice to a team that is just trying to improve themselves.

I looked at the ballpark survey and I discoverd that I would be giving Dodger Stadium some pretty low scores due to the traffic, food choice questions and surrounding entertainment and food choices. That would not give an accurate reflection of what I think but I do see how those surveys often can make something look worse than it really is to the respondent of the survey.

2006-07-27 11:56:26
9.   bobbygrich
From the last thread, does anyone have any response to this query I made earlier today.

Is Andre Ethier the best minor league player the Dodgers have acquired in a deal since Pedro Guerrero?

2006-07-27 11:56:34
10.   Bill Crain
borne? Is that an SI edit? I would have thought that was UK spelling, but what do I know? These are the things that keep me awake nights.

2 I don't think the two goals are mutually exclusive, is maybe what Jon's saying. DePo we could've trusted to understand. Ned I got no confidence whatsoever. (Which implys that, for McCourt, subtlety is something you were supposed to learn in high-school but he missed that day while working as his daddy's foreman.)

2006-07-27 11:58:02
11.   the OZ
8 What the survey doesn't ask is "are the ticket prices reasonable? Is it a good place to see a ballgame?"

Instead it fixates on all non-baseball related stadium aspects. Some of these are important and relevant, but many are not things that I care about.

2006-07-27 11:59:13
12.   Marty
8 I thought the same thing. I marked them way down on parking, traffic, outside entertainment and food. Yet I love going there.
2006-07-27 12:10:19
13.   LA Native
I had to give Dodger Stadium some pretty low remarks even though I do have a special feel for the park I grew up in. I gave low marks for lack of public transportation and traffic, and atmosphere (fans don't sit in their seats and pay attention to the game and often don't bother to show up at all despite buying tickets as the place always seems half full even on sellouts). Unlike others, I like the food, but I have simple tastes as I just want my Dodger Dog and a beer. I try to get my food before the game when there are no lines, while everyone else goes during the game instead of watching and pays the price by standing in line forever. Also, I think the Ravine doesn't have the historical charm that it could, by not playing the organ anymore and placing ads everywhere, where they could show some of the history. Even Staples Center has some great paintings of Laker Championships and the Miracle on Manchester when you walk in the VIP entrances, even though those moments did not even happen there.
2006-07-27 12:11:24
14.   Steve
[Nomar for Brandon Wood]
2006-07-27 12:13:53
15.   Sam DC
Nationals 6 Giants 3 going into the eighth. Livan goes 7 innings giving up 3 runs. He's an innings-eater again GMs - get 'im while he's hot!
2006-07-27 12:18:44
16.   underdog
Go Nats!
Until tomorrow that is.
2006-07-27 12:21:30
17.   LA Native
Nomar for Wood would be interesting for both teams. Only problem I see is that with LaRoche, you have two third basemen. That is if you believe Wood has to be moved from short to third, which a lot of people think has to be done.
2006-07-27 12:22:52
18.   bobbygrich
The trade deadline is 1:00 p.m. PDT, Monday July 31, 2006. The site has a running countdown.

I am guessing that a lot of people will be anxiously checking back forth Monday morning.

With no game that day, should make for an angst filled Monday.

2006-07-27 12:25:07
19.   ryu
The parking situation is the most putrid of any event I've attended.

* It takes over an hour just to get out of the parking lot after a game
* It takes over 30 minutes to park before the game
* It takes 30 minutes to get from the lot to my seat
* The lots seem to be numbered in no helpful order

2006-07-27 12:25:21
20.   underdog
I still wish we could just move Nomar to 3rd (or short, and Furcal to 3rd) and call up Loney. Not that this would solve all the Dodger World's problems, but I see Loney as an improvement over Izzy, and like Nomar enough to want to fit him in some way that has him staying.

My relevant Futurama quote of the day (I'll try to keep this from a daily habit): Fry: "Is there any way we can do this with you going and me staying?"

2006-07-27 12:28:52
21.   underdog
18 I'm more anxious about whether or not the Dodgers will have won a game by then...
2006-07-27 12:30:49
22.   underdog
Brad Lidge might be available.
(Or, he might not.)
Anyone want him as a reclamation project?
2006-07-27 12:31:17
23.   bobbygrich
19 Parking my car (except for sold out games when I am not on schedule) is not usually a problem, I usually park in the outer lot 32 and walk across to my seats in the reserve section.

Leaving is always an issue since 95% of the time I stay for the whole game.

The other parks, Anaheim is just one huge lot and I have only gone to one game in the past 10-12 years, PetCo, again not many games, and I had to walk around some railroad tracks, not well setup, should try to figure out their public transportation system. San Francisco, took public transportaion, Arizona, lots across the street and Colorado, has the best set up, good public transportation and good restaurants around their ballpark.

2006-07-27 12:31:32
24.   Steve
Wood stays at short and Fur-kel goes to:

2006-07-27 12:33:36
25.   bobbygrich
20 I am more interested to find out if Loney has a future playing OF.

Guzman has been playing a lot of 1B and seems to be playing better since the break, stealing some bases too.

2006-07-27 12:35:35
26.   thinkblue0

ANYONE is an improvement over Izzy.

Trying to deal Nomar is imperative right now. Imagine how good of a player he could bring back. That's not going to happen, so if Lofton, Baez, Saito, Izturis, Cruz, Ledee etc are all here in five days I'm going to vomit. We have absolutely zero chance of winning this division and our GM's obsession with signing and/or trading for garbage veterans with high price tags has gotten us nowhere. Anyone who isn't going to get arbitration needs to be dealt.

As far as next year, the Kent extension looks worse and worse. Without that, and by ditching a couple guys like Izturis and Hendrickson we could conceivably have enough cash to sign Zito, Schmidt, Soriano. Of course, that's letting Nomar walk as well and using Loney. Anyways, I'm looking forward to an offseason filled with Todd Walker-like acqusitions.

2006-07-27 12:35:46
27.   D4P
Ned will trade Nomar when freezes over.
2006-07-27 12:36:45
28.   Sam DC
Nationals hang on to win 6-5. E. Alfonso for the Giants had 2 2-run homer runs today. Eliazer Alfonso, that is.

Dodgers running into a hot Nationals squad -- they've won six straight.

2006-07-27 12:37:46
29.   Sam DC
Well, to be more polite, it's Eliezer Alfonzo.
2006-07-27 12:44:15
30.   LA Native

I was also very impressed by Coors Field. Great neighborhood with lots of restaurants and bars. Excellent public transportation, especially for a smaller city (don't know about parking as I took public transit). Petco and SBC are also nice. I hate admitting SBC is nice, because San Franciscans are so snobby about everything in their town.

I always thought Dodger Stadium could use a Hall of Fame Museum either out in the parking lot or in the stadium. Something like a Heritage Hall.

2006-07-27 12:44:47
31.   StolenMonkey86
Yep, and the Nationals' luck, after all, has never changed at the drop of a hat.

I thought that survey should have had a question about how comfortable you felt rooting for the visiting team in the ballpark, because that's actually useful information.

Something like, is it ever a good idea to cheer for the away team:
() not if you value your life
() as long as it's not the __GIANTS__
() sure, but avoid __________ section
() sure, they're good sports
() everyone there is a fan of the away team

2006-07-27 12:46:52
32.   Bluebleeder87
I'm still debating what song I like better as my introe song coming in to bat at Dodger Stadium (both Zoe songs) Veneno or Peace & love.
2006-07-27 12:47:16
33.   StolenMonkey86
30 - I always thought Dodger Stadium could use a Hall of Fame Museum either out in the parking lot or in the stadium. Something like a Heritage Hall

Couldn't agree more. The team has such a rich history, a museum (no doubt complete with a gift shop) would be a nice addition in the parking lot.

Not to mention that if you're not familiar with the stadium, it would be easier to find your way around the parking lot.

2006-07-27 12:48:40
34.   scareduck
14 - you must be a fan of the letter K.
2006-07-27 12:49:09
35.   D4P
It's times like these that help demonstrate an owner's true commitment to building a winning team. Owners have two primary objectives, that are not always consistent with each other. Owners want to win, but they also want to make money. Sometimes a given action contributes to both objectives, sometimes it does not.

At the moment, the Dodgers face a dilemma. Do they: (1) focus on the future by waving the white flag on 2006 and trading the veterans for youngsters, thereby decreasing the chances of winning this year, and possibly decreasing the number of people who show up to watch the games, but increasing the chances of winning in the future, or do they (2) hold onto those veterans and/or trade youngsters for other veterans, in an effort to maximize the chances of winning this year, and possibly maintaining the number of people who show up to watch the games, but decreasing the chances of winning in the future?

In my opinion, if this administration were truly committed to winning, they would give up on 2006 and try to trade the vets for some youngsters who will help in the future. If they fail to at least make such an effort, I will conclude that they are more concerned with profits than with winning.

2006-07-27 12:50:37
36.   Uncle Miltie
22- Jeff Kent, Danys Baez, and cash considerations for Brad Lidge, Hunter Paulino, and Jason Lane
2006-07-27 12:51:35
37.   bobbygrich
26 I'm glad I won't be around you on Monday.

First, Nomar got hurt at exactly the wrong time, who is going to trade for a player with his history and also in the midst of his first slump. It sounds like he won't play at all during the weekend which further limits his trade value.

Lofton, who has more value than Cruz or Ledee, would not get you much but I could see him being moved because they could very well bring Kemp back up to play CF.

Ledee did not fare well in his last trade deadline deal and again since he is coming back from injury, only a team that does not need an everyday player would make a deal and what kind of deal would that be.

Cruz had no value and playing him in games where he bats lefthanded does not help.

Not sure why Saito gets mentioned but he probably could get you something but the downside is that he is cheap and you have control of his contract for a while.

Izzy remains as the one real player that could be valuable to a team like Boston or Toronto, so I will be interested to see what happens with that.

If the Dodgers dealt Nomar, Izzy or Saito, they would be given the label of "Seller" but anyone else could be seen as addition (prospects) by substraction.

However, the odds or dealing Nomar or Saito would be pretty long, Izzy on the otherhand, I will have to be seeing what's coming out of Boston and Toronto (interestingly Toronto is out in Oakland this weekend, so at least they will be in the same timezone).

2006-07-27 12:53:11
38.   bobbygrich
28 Why does Chad Cordero make every save situation an adventure.

I'm not sure beating NL West teams right now qualifies you as being a hot team.

2006-07-27 12:53:47
39.   scareduck
36 - no Hunter Paulino in the Astros' system, but there is a Hunter Pence, and given the way he's hitting home runs this year (he leads the Texas League, last I looked), you'll have to give up a lot more than an injured Jeff Kent and a mopup reliever to get him.
2006-07-27 12:56:21
40.   Uncle Miltie
39- haha. I put the two prospects names together. I meant Hunter Pence AND Felipe Paulino.
2006-07-27 12:56:36
41.   DodgerDodger
19 - I know that in LA it's sacreligious to advocate walking anywhere, but that's what I do. I park in Elysian Park or on Boylston and walk back and forth. It's only a 15 minute walk, you get some exercise, and you avoid all the hassle of dealing with the parking lot.

Also, since my season tickets are in the Top Deck, I paid a total of $6 a game for two seats. Just out of principle I absolutely refuse to pay $10 a game for parking.

Anyone ever read the Ray Bradbury story "The Pedestrian?" Walking in LA always reminds me of that story.

2006-07-27 12:59:33
42.   regfairfield
41 Or if you don't want to walk that far, enter on Elysian Park, and then park in the first lot you see on the left. Unless you're morbidly obese, it's not a far walk, and you get out of the stadium in 10 minutes, tops.
2006-07-27 13:00:44
43.   LA Native
I just don't see Ned trading Kent, Drew or Nomar, although I think that may make the most sense. We should be a seller at this point, but we don't have the GM or owner who will do this.

Final thought on Dodger Stadium, I am no fan of the McCourts, but I think they have improved the stadium a bit with the new seats, the picnic area outside, and overall refurbishment (I like the idea of putting seats where we had all that extra foul territory). I even like that we have a real dirt warning track now instead of that rubber junk that just caused injuries and ground rule doubles. Not crazy about all the new advertising, but it isn't too bad. Still nice that we have a real stadium name and not a corporate name that changes every couple of years. It is still truly the people's stadium.

2006-07-27 13:05:02
44.   blue22
43 - I just don't see Ned trading Kent, Drew or Nomar

Kent's extension was by far the worst decision out of Colletti in his tenure here.

It means three things - one, we're stuck with Kent long past his expiration date; two, he's virtually untradeable now; and three, Ned wasn't going to trade him anyway.

2006-07-27 13:08:42
45.   LA Native

Agree for the most part, although I do hope Kent can bounce back from these nagging injuries. However, with age being a factor, I think we could see a sharp downside from now on. I doubt we could get much for him at this point, but you never know. Some teams may really be better off with a power hitting second baseman vs. what they have now at that position. It is all for naught though as I doubt Ned would consider trading him.

2006-07-27 13:13:16
46.   blue22
45 - He makes about $10M next year. And assuming he doesn't spend significant time on the DL, he'll make $10M the next (2008!). Whoopee.
2006-07-27 13:15:11
47.   StolenMonkey86
36 - Would the Astros GM take Baez for Lidge?

I think that deal is more viable as just Kent for the prospects.

2006-07-27 13:19:23
48.   D4P
I think the best we can hope for regarding Jeff Kent is that he decides to retire early and forfeit the remainder of his contract. He has intimated in the past that he doesn't really like playing baseball, and if his Dodger-related injuries and commitments start limiting his participation in his favorite activity (i.e. "truck-washing"), he may choose to call it quits.

Not saying it's likely, but a guy can hope...

2006-07-27 13:20:47
49.   Bill Crain
Buyer v. Seller? Is the switch off or on? Bill James wrote in the 88 Abstract that he was no longer going to do the thing because he began to see the absurdity of trying to explain a complex analysis to a world that only wanted to find the switch. 06 Dodgers = Ballplayer Broke.
2006-07-27 13:20:51
50.   Sam DC
Apparently Bob has a new website.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2006-07-27 13:24:53
51.   blue22
48 - I remember Ryne Sandberg did that (not sure if it was the 1st or 2nd time).

Has anyone else forfeited a (substantial) contract by retiring?

2006-07-27 13:25:57
52.   Blu2
48 Any chance he can get Drew interested in that and retiring with him? No matter what Flanders does now, he has already given me more than enough reason to hate him through all eternity. A chimp flipping a yes or no coin would not likely have made as many bad decision. He has the curse of the Giants on him...
2006-07-27 13:29:47
53.   still bevens
41 Am I the only one who goes to the Short Stop on Sunset before games? $1.50 pabst and you save $10 on parking, not to mention the ease of leaving games and not dealing with the parking lot...
2006-07-27 13:30:57
54.   JoeyP
You'd only want to dump Drew if you truely thought he was going to turn into Luis Gonzalez.

If you believe he's just having a down year (and Carlos Beltran had a much worse season last year than Drew is having this season), then you keep him. Some players just have bad years. Paul Konerko has had a bad season in his prime also. Mark Teixiera is having an awful season compared to his career averages.

11mils for Drew's career averages of .280/.390/.500 is a good price. Declaring a guy done when he's only 30yrs old, is very risky.

2006-07-27 13:34:41
55.   JoeyP
Too bad for Floyd Landis. I guess it was a little too unbelievable that a guy needing hip replacement surgery could win the Tour De France on his own.

2006-07-27 13:40:22
56.   Blu2
54 Remember your comment and review it a year from now. Injuries have eroded his health, he will never be an all star level player again. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if he retires in the next year or two. Maybe he should consider opting out and seeking a contract in the AL. Being a DH would be a lot easier on his body.
2006-07-27 13:42:21
57.   blue22
56 - Backhanded compliment of the day:

Even in this washout of a season by Drew's standards, he's still waaay better than Shawn Green, who's been "reborn" this year.

2006-07-27 13:42:38
58.   the OZ
55 There are people that would argue that no rider in recent history has won the Tour on his own.

Shoot, the top 5 runner-ups to Lance last year were all DQ'd right before this year's race. It seems to be an arms race where everyone is afraid to stay clean because they know everyone else is doping.

2006-07-27 13:43:05
59.   bluetahoe
Luis Gonzalez is better than JD Drew RIGHT NOW. I'd trade 'em straight up.
2006-07-27 13:43:55
60.   D4P
Some of us think the same way about baseball.

"Viva Pol Pot!"

2006-07-27 13:45:37
61.   underdog
52 Since you admit that nothing Colletti does at this point will change your opinion of him (from "hate"), you sort of render any of your future opinions on his decisions as Dodger GM kind of moot, no? Just sayin'... As for me, I'm happier for most of the moves Colletti hasn't made, which could include this deadline, and which involves keeping the future intact. Isn't that as much something that should go on a GM's dossier as trades they did make? Right now I give his overall moves (the public ones) a C+, which isn't terrible, and with the way the Dodgers have drafted the past few years, I'd say the future is a lot brighter than the darkness this past week implies.
2006-07-27 13:45:49
62.   Jacob L
53 The Short Stop is great, but being a dad now, I don't have the liberty of booze-only pregame outings. As such, I've become a fan of the new El Compadre right next door. The food is considerably better than their Hollywood location, the drinks still good and cheapish, and they have a fun atmosphere.
2006-07-27 13:47:56
63.   bluetahoe
52. That's unfair blu2. Neddie didn't leave us with OPerez and Neddie's not handing out 5 year deals to 30 year olds who require a game off a week.
2006-07-27 13:50:33
64.   JoeyP
Since you admit that nothing Colletti does at this point will change your opinion of him (from "hate"),

I think Hendrickson for Navarro, Tomko as a starter, and signing Lofton to play CF, has brought Ned's grade down so low, that at least for this year it'd be near impossible for him to get a passing grade.

I mean, the guy considered Martin an untouchable, and traded Navarro for Mark Hendrickson...! Thats insanity on many levels.

2006-07-27 13:50:54
65.   blue22
59 - They're having similar seasons, statistically. I wouldn't say Luis is "better" because I think JD brings more defensively. Luis is a FA after this season though.
2006-07-27 13:53:09
66.   JoeyP
Plus Drew is 30.
Gonzo is close to 40.

And defensively, its not even close.

2006-07-27 13:53:18
67.   the OZ
JD can still throw a baseball. I'm not so sure about Luis.
2006-07-27 13:53:19
68.   thinkblue0


As for the rest of the talk, most of you are right we couldn't get anything for Nomar now.


The issue with trading these guys isn't what we'd be getting back since ANY return is good. We're not going to keep these players, so you might as well give them the Sandy Alomar treatment. Get rid of them for a low level prospect and move on. Saito gets mentioned because he actually has a ton of value. I also believe you're wrong on how long we control him...I think he's only signed to a one year deal. Relievers are going for a premium right now...we're not going anywhere, so why not cash in on it while we can?

All I know is that I've got the heebie jeebie's about this offseason. We're going to have a lot of money come off the books and if Colletti had half a brain (which he doesn't) he'd ditch all the worthless parts like Izturis to pile up as much money he can to make a strong run after a combo of Zito/Schmidt/Soriano.

2006-07-27 13:55:25
69.   bluetahoe
LOL.. JoeyP. So who should have been starting in place of Tomko assuming Sele never emerged early? DJ Houlton. LOL...
2006-07-27 13:58:25
70.   bluetahoe
Thinkblue. You do realize Gonzo had as many homers and double by noon pacific today than JD's had the past month..... and Gonzo's posting a higher OPS for the season... and Gonzo's contract is basically up at the end of the year....


Neddie would be crazy NOT to tade Drew for Gonzo straight up if Gonzo would waive the NTC. Drew would be gone, Gonzo would be gone at season send and we'd have an extra 33 mils over 3 seasons to get a run producer, not a player who's greatest arsenal is the walk.

2006-07-27 13:58:52
71.   thinkblue0

Tomko should never have been signed in the first place. ESEPCIALLY not for two years.

2006-07-27 14:00:38
72.   thinkblue0
So who should have been starting in place of Tomko assuming Sele never emerged early?

who cares who would have started? Tomko is terrible...just about anyone could do equally as bad. Heck, we could have had Jackson post those numbers for a fraction of the cost...and we wouldn't have gotten Baez in the process.

Face it, the guy you call "Midas" is a terrible GM and outside of the Eithier move, has made awful move after awful move.

2006-07-27 14:01:04
73.   thinkingblue
Can we start the Andy LaRoche countdown already? And has Kershaw been promoted yet?

Also, does it concern anyone that Loney's Isolated paitence is only like .45 or so? Or is it that he's just getting too many good pitches to hit, so he's not waiting around?

2006-07-27 14:02:42
74.   thinkingblue

But, if he starts selling guys like Lofton and Izzy to play guys like LaRoche and Kemp, and then starts making better moves, will you please give him another chance?

I mean, Paul didn't get a fair chance yes, but to judge Colleti this quickly is even worse.

2006-07-27 14:02:46
75.   blue22
2006 eqa / FRAR:

Drew: .281 / 11
Gonzo: .279 / 3
Green: .268 / 2

Clearly Drew is the best of the bunch. And remember, this is a BAD YEAR for Drew.

2006-07-27 14:03:12
76.   thinkblue0

Laroche in september and hopefully Izzy is gone.

As far as Loney goes, I just think he's a big time contact hitter kind of like Nomar. When he was with the team he didn't K much, but he also didn't hit for a good average. The good thing is he was putting the bat on the ball the vast majority of the time. I think he's just one of those hitters who doesn't walk much, but doesn't K much either.

2006-07-27 14:07:49
77.   thinkblue0
* But, if he starts selling guys like Lofton and Izzy to play guys like LaRoche and Kemp, and then starts making better moves, will you please give him another chance?

I mean, Paul didn't get a fair chance yes, but to judge Colleti this quickly is even worse.*

The problem is that Flanders' moves have been about fifty steps beyond illogical. I'm not judging Colletti quickly...I've sat through his terrible signings, his terrible trades and STILL waited to see how they've panned out...and look, our team is awful. I've held out judgment until now but there's simply no denying it. Signing Mueller for two years when you have Laroche for '07? How does that make ANY sense? Especially when you could have just put Aybar at third from the get go....I honestly wonder sometimes what this guy is thinking.

The key to your first paragraph is "starts making better moves". That's the thing, he won't make better moves. He's already proven over and over that he's completely incompetent. If he manages to somehow get out from under Kent's extension and deals dead weight like Izturis while bringing in Zito or Schmidt then I may start to look at him another way....

2006-07-27 14:08:21
78.   gibsonhobbs88
I also agree with Jon. He is right on the money. Getting on of these hitters, Lee/Soriano for a two month rental is not going to help get us in the playoffs this year. I want to see us be competitive for a decade again where we can have 2-5 shots at a World Series in a ten year span. I don't just want to be the weak-kneed brother limping into the playoffs with 84 wins and being roadkill in the first round. Nomar being hurt probably guarantees he won't be traded this weekend, but for me that's okay, he is one veteran I would like to see stay. Broxton, Bills, Ethier and Martin will contribute even more as they get more experience and Kemp is an athlete and once he solves his "Pedro Cerrano" problem with hitting "Uncle Charlie" he'll be a stud!! Get the spare parts veterans off the books and we can make a run at a legit #1 starter as mentioned above and a stud power hitter!
2006-07-27 14:10:33
79.   JoeyP
The Izzy thing is really perplexing. If Ned doesnt trade him this weekend, then all the playing time Izzy has accumulated at 3rd over the last month will have been a gigantic waste.

If the Dodgers just want to prove Izturis is healthy, they could have just kept him at Vegas and had him play SS for that team.

I dont understand what they are doing with Izturis. He has no future with the team at 3rd base, so why not play LaRoche,Guzman, or Aybar at 3rd. Like Bobby pointed out, Izzy's one of the worst 3rd basemen in baseball. No other team is going to want him as a 3rd basemen. At the same time, the Dodgers are killing his trade value by showing off his anemic bat and NOT letting him play SS.

Common sense would say Izturis should be at Vegas, playing SS, and putting up good offensive numbers.

Playing 3rd, putting up bad offensive numbers, in LA does him nor the team any good.

2006-07-27 14:12:26
80.   thinkingblue
The key to your first paragraph is "starts making better moves". That's the thing, he won't make better moves. He's already proven over and over that he's completely incompetent.

Already gotten rid of Perez and Alomar, so you know I'm pretty sure that guys like Cruz, Ledee, Lofton, and Baez are next.

And again, less than 1 year is not enough of a sample size to judge a guy.

2006-07-27 14:13:03
81.   the OZ
So, is Loney the 1B version of Ethier, batting-wise? Guys that hit line drives and not many home runs?
2006-07-27 14:14:07
82.   thinkblue0
Already gotten rid of Perez and Alomar, so you know I'm pretty sure that guys like Cruz, Ledee, Lofton, and Baez are next.

Common sense says Ledee and Lofton and Baez are next...but Ned doesn't work on common sense. Look at just about every move he's made...they are all devoid of any common sense.

2006-07-27 14:15:14
83.   JoeyP
I'm wondering who gets taken off the 25 man roster when Tomko is activated.

Common Sense would say Carrara.
But who knows?

2006-07-27 14:15:16
84.   gibsonhobbs88
77-When Colletti made those signings, I thought they made sense at the time, that the "Jacksonville 5" was maybe a year or two away so he signed these vets to 1 and 2 year deals so they wouldn't prematurely rush the kids. He didn't sign them to long term deals ov over 3 years. Furcal got the most bloated 3 year contract of his signings, and I think his motive was to attract other vets like Nomar to come here.
I'm still not with you on trashing Colletti, though that could change if he reverses field and starts to sell our top prospects for a rental that won't make a difference this year.
2006-07-27 14:15:28
85.   thinkblue0

That really is another huge problem. I got railed here earlier in the year for saying we needed a power bat. I don't want a whole lineup of Adam Dunn's or anything, but you HAVE to have a HR threat in there somewhere.

This is why this Kent extension is driving me up the wall. His money could have gone to someone like Soriano while still keeping Nomar if we wanted to and going after Zito/Schmidt.

2006-07-27 14:19:28
86.   thinkblue0
I thought they made sense at the time, that the "Jacksonville 5" was maybe a year or two away so he signed these vets to 1 and 2 year deals so they wouldn't prematurely rush the kids. He didn't sign them to long term deals ov over 3 years.

That's not really the point. The point is he signed these players when he could have just used the money on one GOOD player. Why sign Mueller to two years? How does that make ANY sense when everyone is expecting Laroche in '07...not to mention you have Aybar who you could just plug in at third and would probably put up similar or better offensive numbers. That money = wasted. Why sign Tomko? Why trade for Hendrickson and Hall? Why sign Lofton? All this money is going to waste that could be spent on good players. Instead, Ned likes to spread his money around to players who aren't good anymore when we have young players who could probably do the same job for a fraction of the cost.

2006-07-27 14:23:00
87.   Big Game

I rarely post here, but I'm a Shortstop regular as well. Great bar. There's actually a few pretty fun bars on sunset near the stadium.

2006-07-27 14:23:38
88.   Ladderkite
If mueller stayed healthy and hit at his career avgs, would he have been a bad move then? If Baez was a shadow of his 40 save self from last year, would he have been a bad move? If Nomar got hurt in the first month with a groin pull, would he have been a giant mistake? If it turned out Ethier couldn't a little league fastball, would Ned have been a Beane-pantsing victim?

I am not happy with what happened either, but these moves could have gone either way. Injuries happen. We didn't have a closer, even though we thought Gagne was coming back, and Ned got the only 40sv man out there. We had to move Milton, and Ned got a real gem for a marked man. The Kent extension is insane, but there probably was some behind-the-scenes brinksmanship going on that forced that. Lofton was coming off a great year, Tomko was an afterthought, and Sele turned out amazing. It's always a mixed bag. It was a box of band-aids and we all knew it. Now, can we pull them off quick and start the healing? That's what I want to know.

2006-07-27 14:26:06
89.   bluetahoe
Some of you are just going to have to get used to what lies ahead for many years to come....

Lots of celebration. Lots of bubbly. And Neddie and Frankie are going to be in the middle of it....

Good times are on the way. Neddie's not sacrificing the future. Not one iota.

Choi, Navarro, Schmoll, Jackson, Tiffany....meh, so what.

And to the poster who thinks Jackson is as good as Tomko. I don't think so. If Jackson EVER has a 7 week stretch where he posts a 2.50 ERA and wins 6 games I'll go streaking at an old folks home.

2006-07-27 14:27:30
90.   bluetahoe
Great post ladderkite. Right on all accords.
2006-07-27 14:28:44
91.   gibsonhobbs88
86- Really! Would those kids have been ready? Or by rushing them prematurely, you could have damaged their psyche when they didn't perform. I believe Ned was doing his best when he was thrown in when most deals were already made. He had to kind of patch the team on the fly this last off-season. Did anybody really know that Mueller's knees were that shot? The Dodgers were not the only team interested in him. There was some risk in signing some of these vets but he did limit them to one or two year deals to buy some time to make sure the kids werre ready. It's a tough balancing act and I'm glad I am not in the hot seat. It's tough enough managing a fantasy team, where injuries have wrecked a promising campaign for me, Derek Lee killed me this year!!
2006-07-27 14:29:14
92.   bluetahoe
86. Is that one GOOD player you're talking about Brian Giles? What GOOD player should it have been?
2006-07-27 14:29:47
93.   dsfan
Interjecting something other than trade-mongering and Ned-bashing, on the subject of developing starting pitchers:

Broxton should move into starting work next year, even if it means starting him out in Double-A.

I respect what Broxton can do as a reliever, an experience that's allowed him to get his feet wet in the majors. Yet I am convinced that Broxton and the Dodgers would be better off if he gets the chance to become more of a pitcher.

He had a good changeup early in his career and seemingly would regain it as a starter. The pace of starting work, I believe, would allow him to increase his touch and feel, his ability to blend, his stamina, and even sharpen his command.

A fringe benefit is that he's probably more apt to keep his weight under control as a starter.

2006-07-27 14:30:38
94.   thinkblue0
If mueller stayed healthy and hit at his career avgs, would he have been a bad move then?

YES. Giving him two years makes ZERO sense when Laroche is probably ready for '07. Not to mention, Aybar could have just played there and probably put up the same offense.

If Baez was a shadow of his 40 save self from last year, would he have been a bad move?

YES. A lot of us here realize that saves is a very unimportant stat. Baez doesn't have good peripherals. The fact that our GM refused to look at said peripherals and still traded prospects for a bad reliever isn't a good sign.

If Nomar got hurt in the first month with a groin pull, would he have been a giant mistake?

No. He was only signed for one year and there's nothing wrong taking a chance like that for ONE YEAR on someone with his talent. If it didn't work out, no harm no foul...he's gone at the end of the year.

We had to move Milton, and Ned got a real gem for a marked man.

no one's denying that. Great trade.

The Kent extension is insane, but there probably was some behind-the-scenes brinksmanship going on that forced that.

I really don't get this. Why are you making excuses and completely taking away all responsibility from Colletti. The guy gave a REALLY bad extension and it goes along with his history of loving the aging veteran. Awful, awful move.

2006-07-27 14:30:42
95.   bobbygrich
79 Just checking Izzy's playing record, its possible he had one more option year but he also might have 5 years of service time meaning he would have to give permission for a minor league assignment (think Jason Giambi) so the Vegas assignment maybe was never an option outside of the rehab assignment.
2006-07-27 14:31:53
96.   D4P
The Kent extension is insane, but there probably was some behind-the-scenes brinksmanship going on that forced that

Like, say, Kent holding a gun to Ned's head...?

2006-07-27 14:32:02
97.   trainwreck
I will reiterate what I said yesterday. If Ned goes on a firesale (especially for minor league pitching) then I would take back everything bad I said about him.
2006-07-27 14:36:29
98.   blue22
89 - And to the poster who thinks Jackson is as good as Tomko. I don't think so. If Jackson EVER has a 7 week stretch where he posts a 2.50 ERA and wins 6 games I'll go streaking at an old folks home.

Not to be nit-picky here, but why in the world would you cite Tomko's brief but terrific little stretch there, when all that is needed is to just say "Scoreboard"? Tomko's numbers overall are more impressive than Edwin's. Why pick out little stretches like that to make your point, especially given the audience here? You have to know someone is going to call you out on that.

Edwin is just terrible. Tomko is slightly less than terrible. You do the math.

2006-07-27 14:37:11
99.   blue22
96 - Like, say, Kent holding a gun to Ned's head...?

Or a razor to his upper lip...?

2006-07-27 14:37:57
100.   thinkblue0

Edwin is just terrible. Tomko is slightly less than terrible. You do the math.

Exactly. And would you rather pay Edwin 300K to be terrible or Bombko millions to be "slightly less terrible". Give me Jackson and I'll spend that cash elsewhere.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2006-07-27 14:38:15
101.   dsfan

Premature to fillet or fete Ned. Way too early. Lots there for a spirited debate, but much of the vitriol directed at him here seems over the top. So far, I'd give him a C to a C-plus. Context, context, context. What were the franchise's resources when he got the job? What were the market forces when he got the job at a time when the offseason was well underway?

The more significant questions: Can any GM prosper under the McCourts? How able are the holdovers such as Ng and Roy Smith?

I've yet to form a strong opinion on Colletti, but for now, I'm strongly skeptical of the stewardship skills above him and the know how and wherewithal of Ng/Smith below him.

White is an asset, provided he doesn't allow his success to bloat his ego and curb his work ethic. It requires extraordinary energy to do his job. Many very good scouting directors get burned out within 5-6 years and their decline doesn't become wholly evident until a few years later.

2006-07-27 14:38:48
102.   D4P
Or a razor to his upper lip...?

"This will hurt me more than it hurts you..."

2006-07-27 14:40:56
103.   Ladderkite
94- Laroche started the season in AA. We all love him and I am ready to see him, but prospects are still prospects. AA especially. Maybe Laroche struggled in AAA when proomted and would have required a repeat, giving time to ween off Mueller and work him in. It's not math, there are no exact answers here. You're using a lot of hindsight to make these conclusions. At the time we had no 3b, and it was Aybar alone (a ntural 2B). Two years ain't 5.

I said the Kent extension was insane. What more do you want?

Baez. What were Sele's "peripherals" before the season. C'mon. It was a position of dire need, and guess still is. He tried, it didn't work. Retread.

Nomar. Well, I guess you approve of Ned's work there. Since either outcome suits you. See, you're not a hater afterall.

2006-07-27 14:53:35
104.   Jon Weisman
85 - I find it hard to believe that anyone got widespread criticism for saying that the Dodgers could use another home-run threat. I'm sure some people may have felt that the Dodgers had enough home runs, but that doesn't sound like a popular view.
2006-07-27 14:54:57
105.   savetheblues
I'm a longtime reader/rare poster on this site, but I think the way to analyze Coletti will be what he does this offseason. I will never forget his snide remark about VORP, and as a result, I'm worried that he's going to go after a Soriano type. I know some posters have advocated that, but let's reconsider. Soriano is a below average defender at both second and LF who costs his teams wins at both. His OBP spike this year is partly because of a spike in IBB, partly because it's a "career year"(also known as a fluke). His traditional metrics(HR's, SB's, etc.) will drive up his price to the tune of 5 yrs 60-70 mil. I don't particular believe in PECOTA projections, mostly because they seem to often be off the mark, but they are typically right about when players enter their decline phase(though the actual decline is questionable). Soriano will be going into his decline during his next contract, and as a result we could be paying 12 mil in 2010 for a .750-.800 OPS below average corner OF.
2006-07-27 14:55:45
106.   JoeyP
95. Very good point. Izzy may have veteran status that might allow him to refuse a AAA assignment.
2006-07-27 15:01:18
107.   Blu2
[96, 99] Maybe Kent knows some dirt on little Ned from his San Francisco days?
2006-07-27 15:04:10
108.   JoeyP
Kent's extension reeks about as bad as Jeff Moorad's spending spree with the Dbax that netted him Shawn Green at 3/30, and Russ Ortiz at 4/40.

Maybe Kent and Colletti are really good friends. Thats the only rational that i can think of for extending Kent before he even played a game in 2006.

2006-07-27 15:06:16
109.   gibsonhobbs88
94-103 - See 94, No. 103 makes the points I was trying to make. Estimating when a prospect is ready is at best an educated guess, an inexact science. Bringing a kid up before he's ready can put the "kebash" on his career or at least set him back another 2-3 years. We all agree we got the most out of Kent last year and he should have been traded in the offseason to get some more starting pitching. Not all GM's are perfect and maybe Ned's heart or sense of loyalty to Kent from the SF years clouded his judgment. Mueller and Baez, I could see where he was coming from. Mueller a two year deal till LaRoche is ready and Mueller could have moved to second in the second year if they didn't give Kent that extension to make room for LaRoche. Baez, despite his peripherals, had saved 40 games with a bad losing TB team and the Dodgers had no assurances regarding Gagne. I could hardly fault him for those acquisitions given the information he had at the time.
2006-07-27 15:08:43
110.   jasonungar05
Well the facts are that we the third highest payroll in baseball and have a last place team in arguably the weakest division in a weak NL. That's not a C or C- to me.

That's an F.

2006-07-27 15:08:49
111.   JoeyP
It was a position of dire need

Middle relief is never a dire need. At least, not in proportion to the starting lineup and starting rotation. Unless you're Wayne Krivsky, middle relievers are a dime a dozen. They should be valued as such. If you value them so much that you'd pay 5mils for Baez, and trade prospects for him, something is wrong from a cost/benefit perspective.

2006-07-27 15:12:02
112.   Sushirabbit
You know. I like Zero's idea. There needs to be a DT fantasy league. Everybody starts with the Dodger's and $100 mil and then they field the team they can, while the rest of the readers act as the "owners" for all the other teams.

Would it be points? Head-to-head? Maybe we could use Xei Franks computer simulator? Can anyone beat the real Dodger team with their team?

Zero, my friend, I'm afraid reality is a litte different than fantasy. Maybe we ought to just stick to a comedy fantasy league.

2006-07-27 15:15:53
113.   das411
Wow, after doing that survey I <3 Citizens' Bank Park. But why is there no place to mention excellent sightlines, parking where the old ballpark once stood, and the occasional (Fu Manchu'd) fan group? :P

And Nate, did you know our favorite Yankees C has a World Series ring already? 3 guesses what team he was with!

And is 99 what happened to Robb Nen that one year?

2006-07-27 15:18:38
114.   Ladderkite
111 - I'd pay 5 mil for Papelbon in a flash without regard for human life. Are closers middle relief anyway? That's what we're talking about...closers. Right?
2006-07-27 15:23:34
115.   JoeyP
Relief pitchers in general are trash.
There are a select few that arent, but Baez wouldnt fall into that class.
2006-07-27 15:24:17
116.   bobbygrich
104 I don't think I would be critical of acquiring more power.

BTW, looking at the DT archives, there was not a lot of criticism when they signed Bill Mueller.

2006-07-27 15:26:53
117.   thinkblue0

I'm game.

2006-07-27 15:28:16
118.   thinkblue0

I said we need a bat when we were scoring a ton of runs...everyone basically said I was an idiot because of the amount of runs we were scoring. I posted "you guys wouldn't even want a LF upgrade?"..keep in mind, this is before Eithier, and about three or four posters again said no and that I had no idea what I was talking about.

I was a history major in college, I have a good memory ;)

2006-07-27 15:29:33
119.   savetheblues
I have no idea why everyone is so down on Kent here... sure he's been hurt a lot this season, but the fact remains that when healthy this season, he's been above average defensively(by all BP metrics) while being, once again, above average offensively. There is no reason to think that we won't see an average defensive second baseman with above average offensive numbers from Kent for the next few years, given that his injuries are not serious. Given the premium position, lack of bad health history, and the offensive production, why is this a bad deal? It seemed like a great deal at the time, because we don't have a second base prospect who would be any better than him and we still don't have that prospect. And, for the record, I can't stand Coletti.
2006-07-27 15:30:20
120.   Mr Customer
113 Cousin Sal's ring has a big red "A" on it, though he did not have a post-season at-bat.
2006-07-27 15:30:26
121.   King of the Hobos
114 I'd also pay $5M to Papelbon in a flash. I'd also make him a starter, like he has been his entire career before this year.
2006-07-27 15:33:06
122.   Ladderkite
121 - exactly. Why haven't they moved him in yet? Is it don't fix what ain't broken? Or are they gonna wait til next year?
2006-07-27 15:34:40
123.   Ladderkite
115 - Then why are so many teams desperately trying to get their hands on some trash?
2006-07-27 15:37:36
124.   dzzrtRatt
Kvetch kvetch kvetch.

First of all, the payroll issue. About $38 million of that payroll is sitting on the DL right now or being mailed to Japan or Kansas City. Just to be fair. Of that total, less than half is going to players Colletti signed. Also, Neddy had nothing to do with deciding to spend $20 million on Drew and Lowe -- which might be the going market rate for players like that, but I'm just saying, Ned Colletti wasn't seated at a desk and given a $100 million budget and told, "go out and find the best players you can."

DePodesta bears at least half the blame for what's wrong with this roster, and that's being charitable. But most of Colletti's critics in this comment area worship DePo, or at least conveniently ignore the degree to which his decisions put us here.

Colletti, like DePo, had to deal with this reality. There were holes in the roster that the minor league prospects weren't ready to fill. It would have been malpractice to put them in these roles in 2005 or 2006. So then you have to go out and compete for experienced players with other GMs, and negotiate with agents who want the most for their clients. Most contracts that go to quality veterans nowadays are at least one year longer than you can reasonably expect that player to perform for. Don't like it? Great, but you might find yourself without a third baseman come opening day.

There's a lot of what's being called "logic" on this site that conveniently ignores the "logic" of the marketplace, which is how prices are set. There is no logical reason why Kenny Lofton gets paid 10x more than Andre Ethier to do a worse job, and why Eric Gagne gets paid 3x Kenny Lofton to contribute nothing at all. No logic, except that's the way the market for a scarce resource, quality ballplayers, works. (The market plus the rules applying to players before free agency.)

In another industry, Gagne would be off the payroll collecting disability, Lofton would be on 30-day probation -- improve or else -- and Ethier would be in your office saying "I hate to tell you this, but I got a call from George Steinbrenner. They have an opening in left field and he wants to pay me $2 million."

When GMs have the power to match dollars perfectly with performance, you will have the ability to impose sabermetric logic expectations on someone like Colletti. 'Til then, you've got to figure even GMs you worship will sign players like Mueller to two year deals despite the fact that you just know, for a fact, that Andy LaRoche will be ready to play third base next season. (He'll be at least as good as Dallas McPherson, I hear.)

2006-07-27 15:38:48
125.   JoeyP
It seemed like a great deal at the time

Because old players sometimes just drop off a cliff. There's a reason why DePo didnt extend Steve Finley, even though he was coming off a 30HR season and 2 months of being a Dodger hero.

Its very risky to keep dumping money into 39, 40 yr old position players when steroids are no longer legal.

And for a deal to be considered 'great', that would mean getting him at a price lower than what another team might pay.

Is their another team that would give Kent 11.5 mils at 40yrs old to play 2nd base?

How could it be considered a 'great' deal even if you disregard Kent's age? Was Jeff Kent going to get offered more

2006-07-27 15:40:45
126.   JoeyP
But most of Colletti's critics in this comment area worship DePo, or at least conveniently ignore the degree to which his decisions put us here.

You really should leave out the patronizing if you want your arguments to maintain credibility.

There's been plenty of specific issues raised about Ned Colletti, and the players he's brought in, and the prospects he's lost. Its not like people are making stuff up to make him look bad. Ned's done the deals. He'll take the rightful criticism.

2006-07-27 15:41:16
127.   Mr Customer
121 I can appreciate that, if you want him to start. In these days of closer-deification, it seems like it's almost as easy to find a good reliever off a spring training invite as it is to lure one with big cash. I'd much rather have Saito at no-risk than pay out for the next Billy Koch, Keith Foulke, or Damaso Marte.
2006-07-27 15:43:47
128.   bobbygrich
I like Ned, that doesn't mean I have to agree with every move but if I had to agree with every move a GM made, I wouldn't like anyone.

I liked Paul when he was here, again the reason why I thought his rise and fall as GM was so disheartening to many of us was that I believed he had a philosophy that could be explained with analysis as opposed to some arcane philosophy used by "baseball people."
But I did not agree with every move he made and the fact that no support from the regular media (Baseball Prospectus does not count) made his portrayals in the press very discouraging.

I will occasionally keep saying this here just to try rise above the side taking that often happens here regarding the general manager.

Before we say the sky is falling lets see what happens come 1:00 p.m. Monday afternoon.
If the Dodgers make moves than we can critique them and move on. If they don't we can talk about that too. But I hate to see DT become politicized where we have to draw sides and argue from that point of view.

That kind of talk does not the help us politically and certainly makes DT sometimes a tiresome place to visit.


2006-07-27 15:44:52
129.   JoeyP
Then why are so many teams desperately trying to get their hands on some trash?

I've been wondering that for the last 4-5 years.

2006-07-27 15:45:47
130.   RELX
There seems to be an assumption here by some that every Dodger prospect, even guys who have never played an inning in the major leagues, like LaRoche, will be automatic big league caliber players, if not out and out stars. Conversely, every veteran, such as Lofton or Mueller, etc., is garbage. I think at times we need a little more balance of thought. If half of the prospects the team has now even become productive major league players, we will be ahead of the curve. If one or two of them become stars, we will have done well. The best thing to come out of this year is that it looks like Martin and Ethier are bonafide players, that Kemp should become one, that Broxton is at the very worst a solid middle reliever, and that Billingsley will get some major league innings (even though I don't think he is ready yet, and wouldn't be surprised if he begins next year in the minors.)
2006-07-27 15:50:50
131.   savetheblues
The reason DePo didn't extend Finley was because there was no indication Finley would keep up that level. He has no discipline, is not a great hitter, and his 30+hr's to depo were probably a fluke(which they were), while DePo realized his gold gloves were a joke and he was at best average in CF. Old players don't fall off cliffs when they are patient hitters who don't derive too much value from speed. We're giving him 11.5 million next year, which is probably overpaying by about 2 mil. It's a one year contract with a team option based on health(550 plate appearances makes the second year automatic). So basically, we said we were willing to overpay by 2-3 million to avoid the risk of losing an .850-.900 OPS second baseman. I think it's entirely justifiable. I'm actualy doing a senior thesis at school on contract extensions right now, because what it works out to is highly probabilistically based game theory. The idea is we could have gotten kent for amount A if we let him test the water, or we could've risked an outperform and market conditions that led to a contract for Amount B. So we settled for Amount C, somewhere in the middle, paying a premium for risk. I doubt Coletti thought of this but it's just an idea...
2006-07-27 15:53:05
132.   JoeyP
'Til then, you've got to figure even GMs you worship will sign players like Mueller to two year deals

Actually no, because DePo never signed a Tomko or a Mueller (mediocre veteran to a multi year deal). He never traded for a Baez.

I guess Jose Valentin is similar to Kenny Lofton, but Valentin was like a last resort. A pretty good one, considering he hit 30HRs the season before. Ned had options in CF, but he chose Lofton and sent Bradley packing...and the kicker...he gave Lofton more money than Bradley. He gave a 39yr old washed up CF'er, more than Milton Bradley would have made. Thats lunacy. I dont care if Bradley is hurt, at least with Bradley there's a chance if he's out on the field, he makes a big difference. With Lofton, he makes no difference.

2006-07-27 15:54:40
133.   bluetahoe
my body just kind of went numb when I read the post comparing Kent's 11 million, 1 year extension to Russ Ortiz's 4 year 40 million dollar contract..

I can't feel my legs.

2006-07-27 15:55:15
134.   dzzrtRatt
126 Sorry if you took that as patronizing. But I admit, I'm impatient with a lot of the rhetoric about Colletti. I don't know him and don't care about him as a person, but the prevailing view of his reign seems just completely unbalanced.

The prospects he's lost? What prospects are you referring to? Hendrickson and Baez are not great pitchers by any stretch, but they are the best you're going to get if, as Colletti's clearly done so far, your goal is to keep the Dodgers' prospects. Jackson and Tiffany were no longer real prospects, so they were expendable. Navarro was a lesser alternative to Martin, so he was expendable. Are you saying the Dodgers would be a better team today if we still had them, and didn't have Hendrickson and Baez? Give me a break.

If Colletti had traded LaRoche, Guzman, Kemp, Broxton or Billingsley to get Hendrickson, I'd want to boil him in oil. But it appears to me that he's put those and several others in a near-untouchable category, which is what you want. Me too. But there are consequences of such a policy, and you're seeing it now.

I'm sorry if it sounded patronizing to put a portion of the blame for the Dodgers' bloated payroll on DePo. It happens to be a fact. I will work on trying to restate this fact in a more sensitive way from now on.

2006-07-27 15:56:21
135.   underdog
130 How dare you bring logic and rational thought into all of this!

No, seriously, well said. A lot of people make the assumption (and I hope it's true) that LaRoche is automatically set to open next season as our starting 3bman. Mueller seemed like good solid insurance to keep the "chair warm". Hindsight General Managing is much more foolproof than the real thing.

2006-07-27 15:56:27
136.   bobbygrich
126 Does anyone in the minors qualify as a prospect and if they do, than any deal involving them is a bad deal?

It would not surprise me to see the Devil Rays try to move Edwin Jackson before having to decide if they want him on their 25 man roster next year. I don't think they will put Chuck Tiffany on their 40 man (he has to be put on to protect him from the Rule 5), thinking that no one will take him due to the injury. Their prospect status is certainly questionable.

The two pitchers that went in the KC deal are again guys who would probably not make the 40 man roster next year.

2006-07-27 15:58:12
137.   ToyCannon
E Jackson is close to the worse pitcher in major league baseball right now.

Hate to agree with the majority here but it does appear our season is over and that we need to concentrate on the future. Given that the big three (Kent, Nomar, JD) all are useless right now this appears to be the proper strategy. Is Ned the guy who can make that happen? His 1st prospect trade was an A+, and his 2nd was amazing that he even got a arm for Alomar. I have more confident in his(staff) abilities to do prospect trades then his ability to trade for veterans. Knowing that Kent and Drew's contracts are unmoveable, Ned will have to be creative to find some players who will have value to us in the future. Even in a selling mode we don't really have anyone that anyone covets either cause the contract is egregious(Kent, JD, Furcal) or the vet is just not a difference maker(Cruz, Ledee, Saenz, Lofton, Baez). Nomar, Penny, Lowe, are probably the only players who can be dealt for some value but we need Penny and Lowe next year and Nomar doesn't have much value in the trade market as a 1st baseman. A few teams in the hunt need a 3b(Twins, Padres, Tigers, A's(Chavez is a physical mess), but we don't have one that anyone would be interested in.

I still think Izzy gets traded or maybe I'm just hoping but I don't expect much in return. I'd be happy just to get a Wiggington at this point for him.

The Lineup on Sept 1st should be:

We need to see Loney and LaRoche everyday in Sept. Loney to see if he can play RF on an everyday basis and LaRoche to get some Major League time in anticpation of being the full time 3b in 07. I also would like to see Guzman get plenty of at bats at either 1st or RF but I suspect he'll be getting those at bats for another team. Before anyone bites my head off over playing Loney in RF, we already know he's a gold glove caliber at 1st, we need to know if he can play the outfield. He has a gun for an arm but can he run the right routes and does he have enough speed to cut off the foul line and the gaps. That is what I want to see.

2006-07-27 15:58:48
138.   dsfan

Yours is an excellent post, fair, thoughtful, intellectually honest.

2006-07-27 15:59:06
139.   bluetahoe
132. LOL.. we'd be SO much better off with Milton 'neverplay' Bradley and Antonio "it took 3 1/2 months but I got my BA over .100" Perez instead of having that good for nuthin Andre Ethier.
2006-07-27 16:01:40
140.   dsfan
137 --

Martin likely will be exhausted by September so maybe keeping him eighth is the better route. As it is, he's carrying an inordinate load.

2006-07-27 16:01:42
141.   D4P
With Lofton, he makes no difference.

Lord knows I'm not here to defend Lofton, but I was shocked upon viewing the following:

2006 VORP
Drew: 12.6
Lofton: 12.0

Course, VORP doesn't take into account defense, where Drew has a 20-point Rate2 advantage over Lofton.

2006-07-27 16:01:48
142.   dsfan
137 --

Martin likely will be exhausted by September so maybe keeping him eighth is the better route. As it is, he's carrying an inordinate load.

2006-07-27 16:04:53
143.   JoeyP
So we settled for Amount C, somewhere in the middle, paying a premium for risk.

You're basically taking Kent off the market, bc for whatever reason the Dodgers thought there was a risk that he could have such a great 2006 season that he'd raise his market value even more than it was coming off of 2005. I would have said that was highly unlikely.

Moreover, I'd say that the chances of him underperforming in 2006, and lowering his value, were greater than him raising his value. Therefore, I dont see the positive NPV in paying a premium for Jeff Kent to sign.

2006-07-27 16:10:06
144.   JoeyP
Hindsight General Managing is much more foolproof than the real thing.

Not hindsight when you have people publically wanting Willy Aybar at 3rd, or Nomar at 3rd with Choi/Saenz still at 1st before all of this took place. I wasnt the only one.

Does VORP place more emphasis on stolen bases than should be? I'd love to see the exact formula.

2006-07-27 16:13:33
145.   D4P
Does VORP place more emphasis on stolen bases than should be?

I'm not sure how much weight VORP places on stolen bases, but given that Lofton is so close to Drew, it must be quite a bit.

2006-07-27 16:15:07
146.   Mr Customer
124,126 I'm fantasically bored with this particular debate. This board has had a reputation for having fairly SABR-friendly commenters, of which I'm reported to be one. That said, I'm going to start subscribing the Zhou Enlai "It's too soon to tell" philosophy of sports management. All the my-GM-is-saner-than-your-GM arguing lacks, well, imagination. The most reckless GMs can win the division. Clever GMs can go 54-108 in a given season.

All we can say, at this point, is that our risks mostly not paid off. Enlightened payroll management will not help Matt Kemp hit breaking balls, nor will it teach Joel Guzman to take a pitch.

All Ned or Paul or Dan or...well, not him...or Fred could do was to put their team in a position to succeed in a given season. The fact that they didn't only means that they didn't.

I'm going to crawl back into the cubicle now.

discuss amongst yourselves.

2006-07-27 16:15:14
147.   blue22
Drew has a 3.4 to 1.2 advantage in WARP, which does account for fielding.
2006-07-27 16:15:45
148.   D4P
BTW: How common is it for a team to not have a single player hit 20 HRs in a season? The Dodgers would appear to have a very good chance of achieving such a dubious distinction in 2006...
2006-07-27 16:18:53
149.   JoeyP
Hendrickson and Baez are not great pitchers by any stretch, but they are the best you're going to get if,

No they arent. They might be the best you're going to get, if your GM has no creativity.

I'll admit. I was spoiled.

I expect Loduca, Mota, Encarnacion for Penny/Choi.
I expect Jason Fraser for Jayson Werth.
I expect Jason ROMANO for Antonio Perez.

And you're nuts if you think Mark Hendrickson is the best player that could be had for Dionner Navarro. Nuts! You realize, that Martin and Navarro are very very similar.

If Russell Martin was traded for Mark Hendrickson, would you be saying that "It was the best we could do. We had no place for Martin.."

This is Bill Plaschke insanity.

2006-07-27 16:19:19
150.   Mr Customer



Yeah, that's what I meant.

Nothing like making a typo in the middle of a good rant.

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2006-07-27 16:20:07
151.   dzzrtRatt
138 Thanks.

This season, combined with 100 degrees for three weeks, has melted my brain, and probably a lot of others'.

Buyers or sellers doesn't seem like the real question for the Dodgers. I don't think they're going to be either one, except maybe some marginal players will be moved around.

There might be a market for Izturis and Baez. If so, Colletti should try to get a high price for them, but shouldn't move them just to move them.

I think the Dodgers still have a small chance to reach the postseason, but not so much that I'd mortgage any good prospect now to up our odds, unless we'd get back a player we foresee as helping us next season and beyond like Cabrera (which will not happen).

2006-07-27 16:20:27
152.   bobbygrich
Okay, well if you are around at 5:00, the best LH pitcher in the system (okay outside of Kershaw) Scott Elbert is pitching for Jacksonville tonight.
2006-07-27 16:20:45
153.   King of the Hobos
144 It places emphasis on position. Center is a harder position to have significant production from. If Drew were to move to center, his VORP would be higher. MLV, which is very similar but doesn't consider position, rates Drew at 9.3, Lofton at -0.2. Furcal is another example, he has a 12.8 VORP, but a -4.2 MLV.
2006-07-27 16:21:12
154.   JoeyP
Throw in Steve Colyer for Cody Ross as well.

Not prospects for middle relievers.
Or 22yr old catchers for #8 starters.

2006-07-27 16:23:11
155.   JoeyP
Good Info Hobo.

Move Drew to CF, and the team improves.

2006-07-27 16:25:00
156.   JoeyP
Jeremi Milons for Elmer Dessens (if we're gonna trade for middle relievers, make it a lower ranked guy. Not Tiffany/EJac)
2006-07-27 16:27:13
157.   bluetahoe
Two things I've learned today.
1) DePodesta did NO wrong.
2) Neddie did NO right.

I guess this franchise really is hopeless. GO TIGERS!!

2006-07-27 16:29:28
158.   dzzrtRatt
149 If Navarro and Martin are so similar, why was Navarro shunted aside for Martin even after he recovered from his injury?

My impression was Navarro would have been perfectly acceptable, but Martin was a better hitter and a better defensive catcher. Maybe not by a lot, but by enough.

But the point is, I don't care how much imagination Colletti had, he wasn't going to get more than a back-end starting pitcher for Navarro. Partly that's because of how poorly he played in AAA after he recovered. But I don't think the Dodgers had a way to increase his perceived value without costing Martin playing time. Keeping him in AAA wouldn't have done it, because everybody would be asking, "if he's such hot stuff, why did you demote him?"

It's interesting. I think they're handling Izturis just the opposite way -- showcasing him in hopes of getting his market value up. Is it working? My sense is not really.

2006-07-27 16:30:08
159.   bobbygrich
149 If that was every deal Paul made, than I could see the argument but it seems like you are selectively choosing some deals while ignoring others.

He signed Gagne for 20M and he was healthy for about a month, how about the resigning of Odalis, he signed Drew with a player not team option after 2 years, I liked the Kent signing, Lowe maybe got one more year than I would have done, I liked the Penny extension. He basically traded Green for Navarro and we paid cash too, trade Ishii for Phillips and we paid cash there too.

Was an unlucky in some of these deals sure but to point out 3 trades you liked and ignore some of his free agent signings and other trades is just no objective, I know you are being subjective but to do it blinders just doesn't get us anywhere.

2006-07-27 16:30:12
160.   bluetahoe
JoeyP, you forgot about Cabrera for Ketchner. You can't leave Ketchner off your list of franchise players Choi, Werth, CRoss, and APerez. LOL...
2006-07-27 16:30:25
161.   thinkingblue

Where can I get that gameday?

2006-07-27 16:30:53
162.   Jacob L
I'm hesitant to even enter this debate because clearly Coletti is neither Midas nor Medusa. Clearly there's blame to go around for this year's flameout, and clearly this year's flameout is tolerable if it allows the franchise to prosper in the near future - which I think it can.

The one thing that bothers me most though about Ned is the buy high/sell low pattern involving messrs. Baez, Hendrickson, Navarro, Perez, and Bradley. Obviously, one of those deals worked out with Ethier, but the "we've got to get rid of this guy" school or trading is not something you want to make a habit of. Nor is the "lets bring in the guy having the first and only good season of a long career" type deal.

In what's left of this week, Coletti has an opportunity to make his first "sell high" deal(s). That will tell me a lot.

2006-07-27 16:30:56
163.   Mr Customer
124, 146 I didn't mean to imply that I disagree with your comment. I feel much the same sentiment regarding armchair managment.
2006-07-27 16:31:10
164.   thinkingblue

isn't Ketchner still with us?

2006-07-27 16:33:18
165.   JoeyP
Gutierrez/Andrew Brown for Milton Bradley
Murphy, Abercrombie, Hill for Steve Finley
EJ,Tiffany for Baez/Carter
Navarro for Mark Hendrickson/Toby Hall.

All four of these trades are uneven.
Can you pick out the two that were in the Dodgers favor?

2006-07-27 16:33:57
166.   bluetahoe
164. I haven't heard hide nor hare of him. Don't know.
2006-07-27 16:35:04
167.   JoeyP
164. Yes, he's pitching for the GCL right now to build up his arm strength. He had Tommy John surgery, so it should be interesting if he comes back throwing any harder. He'd be a great human interest story if he makes it to the Big leagues.
2006-07-27 16:35:34
168.   bluetahoe
165. OOOOOH OOOOOOOOOH, let me guess. What is the trades Paul DePodesta made?
2006-07-27 16:35:56
169.   dzzrtRatt
165 Oh, crap. JoeyP is DePo! Now I'm in big trouble.

Just for the record, Mr. DePodesta, I was against McCourt firing you.

Say hi to Sandy.

2006-07-27 16:38:29
170.   D4P
If Navarro and Martin are so similar, why was Navarro shunted aside for Martin even after he recovered from his injury?

The problem with this kind of reasoning is that it causes one's brain to short-circuit when one considers similar questions such as "If Choi was better than Phillips/Grabowski/Nakamura/Myrow, then why was Choi shunted aside for Phillips/Grabowski/Nakamura/Myrow even after Phillips/Grabowski/Nakamura/Myrow showed how horrible they were?"

2006-07-27 16:38:46
171.   JoeyP
159. Were talking simply trades here.
If you wanna talk about free agent signings, then thats a whole different thing.

I still like signing OP over spending money on Tomko.

Signing Drew to his deal was perfectly acceptable. That was his market value.

Lowe was fine.

The only mistakes DePo made in free agency was not going to arbitration with Gagne, and giving Izzy his deal. Those were mistakes. But, i said it at the time they were.

2006-07-27 16:38:53
172.   bluetahoe
I'm sure the fans in Tampa Bay are really loving that Baez for Jackson exchange. They pulled a fast one on us there.
2006-07-27 16:39:25
173.   bobbygrich
165 I know you won't believe me but I think all of them are in the Dodgers' favor.
2006-07-27 16:39:46
174.   bluetahoe
169. dzzrtRatt
165 Oh, crap. JoeyP is DePo! Now I'm in big trouble.

Just for the record, Mr. DePodesta, I was against McCourt firing you.

Say hi to Sandy.


2006-07-27 16:40:05
175.   King of the Hobos
161 Unfortunately AA games haven't been Gameday'd yet (although if the AFL and AAA ones were successful, they may expand to AA, but not anytime soon). The best you do now that the games are no longer broadcast over the internet is the box score/game log:

164 Yes. He's currently building up his pitch count in the GCL after TJ surgery. If all goes well, he should start in AA or AAA next year, albeit as a 25 year old lefty without exceptional stuff.

2006-07-27 16:41:09
176.   thinkingblue
so where can I get the gameday for Elbert's start today?
2006-07-27 16:42:00
177.   bobbygrich
171 I assume you mean that only because he would have had a one year deal instead of two but he had to sign Gagne for some baseball reasons and for some non-baseball reasons.
2006-07-27 16:42:15
178.   JoeyP
There's like 30 things DePo did. 25 make since. 5 make complete nonsense.

There's been like 20 things Ned has done. 5 make sense. 15 make you ask why?

2006-07-27 16:42:16
179.   CanuckDodger
Martin and Navarro are NOT similar. The areas in which they differ severely, areas that teams consider important, are simply of no importance to JoeyP: defense and make-up.

Navarro's trade value is being radically exaggerated by the SABR types who also wildly overestimated -- as even they should recognize by now -- Hee Seop Choi's objective market value (i.e. Choi had ZERO trade value, as incontrovertably proven by the fact that when Boston DFA'd him no team even bothered to put in a waiver claim).

2006-07-27 16:42:23
180.   natepurcell
Yes, he's pitching for the GCL right now to build up his arm strength. He had Tommy John surgery, so it should be interesting if he comes back throwing any harder.

lol, hes not going to throw any harder.

2006-07-27 16:42:39
181.   bobbygrich
176 Not Gameday, but you can listen to the game, check out
2006-07-27 16:42:57
182.   natepurcell
so where can I get the gameday for Elbert's start today?

no gameday, listen to the audio though on

2006-07-27 16:44:15
183.   natepurcell
Seems like a great day here today. I'm glad I wasn't hear and blow a couple of fuses.
2006-07-27 16:44:17
184.   jasonungar05
yeah I admit I like Depo more than others because he was the first GM to bring us a Pennant since I was in college and that was 11 years ago. What I am sick of is all of us justifying the brutal dodgers over the last 20 years.

It's not Ned's Fault the payroll is over 100 million again (up from 89) and we have a bunch of crappy devil rays, it's all Depos.

Depo's hands are tied because of the contracts given by Evans and Fox. Some hate Depo now, but we don't win that division without Bradley and Finley. Even the biggest Anti Depo guy would have a hard time arguing that.

And Evans cant spend money, he can't find a real impact bat when the team is the best pitching and defensive team in MLB history (or close) but that's Foxes fault cause the sherrif was in town....

2006-07-27 16:44:25
185.   bluetahoe
180. Depo traded for him. He's going to bounce back, and if Ned plays his cards right he'll be able to trade Ketchner for another ace to compliment Brad Penny.
2006-07-27 16:45:06
186.   regfairfield
165 You can play that game with any two G.Ms

Chris Tierney and Brian Sanches for Rondell
Jose Santiago for Paul Byrd
Justin Lehr and Nelson Cruz for Keith Ginter
Carlos Pena, and Jeremy Bonderman for Ted Lilly.

Guess with moves Allard Baird made.

2006-07-27 16:46:20
187.   D4P
Martin and Navarro are NOT similar. The areas in which they differ severely, areas that teams consider important, are simply of no importance to JoeyP: defense and make-up.

Please fill us in on the respective "make-ups" of Martin and Navarro.

2006-07-27 16:46:37
188.   bobbygrich
178 i agree Joey, that is why when Depodesta left I was disappointed because whether the deals worked out or not they could be explained by some statistical analysis.

But I also understand the baseball reasons why Ned made his deals and I think that there is not one way to build a club.

Perhaps it is not fair that rational thought is not always visible when examining why a person makes these deals but sometimes you have got to let that go.

2006-07-27 16:47:01
189.   bluetahoe
184. So why wasn't DePo able to build upon the team he led us to a pennant with?
2006-07-27 16:47:43
190.   natepurcell
Some hate Depo now, but we don't win that division without Bradley and Finley. Even the biggest Anti Depo guy would have a hard time arguing that.

We won the division because Beltre had an MVP year. Honestly, no other player/event was more important then that.

2006-07-27 16:48:22
191.   bluetahoe
Nevermind. Its because Jim Tracy failed to play Choi/APerez.
2006-07-27 16:48:45
192.   natepurcell
So why wasn't DePo able to build upon the team he led us to a pennant with?

Because it was a fluke. I dont know how anyone cannot see that, pro depo or anti depo.

2006-07-27 16:49:32
193.   Mr Customer
183 Nate, there's probably still more fun to be had. You can take my place in line. I've had my fill.
2006-07-27 16:50:27
194.   bluetahoe
190. I remember some people were wanting DePo to trade Beltre in Aprilof 2004 while he had a hot bat. Thank God DePo didn't listen to those idiots who were advocating that. 2004 would have STUNK without Beltre.
2006-07-27 16:50:49
195.   JoeyP
188. Good post. Fair enough.
2006-07-27 16:51:21
196.   bluetahoe
192. OK then.
2006-07-27 16:51:26
197.   natepurcell

I dont feel like arguing over something that has been beaten like a bloody hooker on sunset for the past 2 years.

2006-07-27 16:52:36
198.   Mr Customer

And yet, we can't look away!

2006-07-27 16:52:40
199.   natepurcell
Thank God DePo didn't listen to those idiots who were advocating that. 2004 would have STUNK without Beltre.

Maybe the players we would have gotten back for beltre would not have made 2005 and 2006 stink.

2006-07-27 16:52:56
200.   bhsportsguy
197 Its just like banging your head in the wall. But your way is a most unusual way to say it.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2006-07-27 16:53:03
201.   regfairfield
194 Don't you think that's a little baiting considering you were screaming "I LOVE THIS TEAM" a month ago, and you were the head of the "Brett Tomko for Cy Young" movement.

Everyone makes mistakes.

2006-07-27 16:54:05
202.   dzzrtRatt
184 Are you saying Ned, DePo, Evans have all used the prior regimes as alibis?

The problem is, none of them held their jobs long enough to put their own stamp on the team. JoeyP's ratio of good/bad DePo moves might be too generous, but generally I liked him on personnel, enough to want to see what he would've done with three more years.

More than anything, I think the Dodgers need stability at the top for a few years. All this lurching from regime to regime, philosophy to philosophy -- no organization can succeed other than accidentally (2004) if it's run like that.

Colletti can (and probably does) blame DePo for some of his current challenges. Fair enough for now. But by 2007, we should be about done with that.

2006-07-27 16:54:37
203.   JoeyP
194. Blue, I wanted Beltre traded for Scott Rolen in 2002. Does that make me an idiot?
2006-07-27 16:54:49
204.   Steve
How's the golf, Nate?
2006-07-27 16:55:36
205.   blue22
201 - Everyone makes mistakes.

And reg should know. He's trying to get the Detroit GM job so he can trade Verlander for Jeff Weaver. ;-)

2006-07-27 16:55:46
206.   Humma Kavula
As this is about to turn into "Suns Thoughts," can someone fill us in on the Biscuits? How are they doing this year? Who are the players to watch?
2006-07-27 16:55:57
207.   natepurcell
to put it short- I liked Depo, I trusted Paul to not do anything drastic.

With Colletti, I don't know yet. He is saying all the right things so far though.

2006-07-27 16:57:24
208.   regfairfield
205 I know Jocketty's a tough customer, so I'll throw in Maybin to make sure the job gets done.
2006-07-27 16:57:50
209.   natepurcell
How's the golf, Nate?

Pretty good. There is a Cleveland Demo Day at Roger Dunn in south OC on the 4th. So im goin to go to that before I buy my new irons. I just want to get my measurements right since Im dropping a decent amount (decent amount by my college student standards) on clubs.

2006-07-27 16:59:24
210.   dsfan

With all respect, and total civility and politeness, and with some reluctance, I must say, you're making this site harder to enjoy by posting so often. There seems to be less give and take when this happens. It feels a lot less like a discussion and more like one constant rant, on the basic theme of "Depo genius, Ned dope."
Perhaps I am out of line here in saying it. I'm checking out. My head hurts.

2006-07-27 16:59:32
211.   natepurcell
sooo football, vince young signs an absurd deal. 5yrs 58mill, 26SB
2006-07-27 17:00:00
212.   jasonungar05
Nate, I know that you know that if Loduca was hitting instead of Finley we don't win the division. I also think that Beltre was a monster, but it was the fire, the passion best exemplified during a 3 game stretch around the all star break when Bradley snatched a game winning home run and hit one himeself vs the Padres. I think he was the spark and the fire that is missed still. (which does not mean I want him on my team anymore, thats not what i am saying)

I do agree it was mostly a fluke, but the fact is, we won.

And we all know that 2005 was so decimated by injury that is it really unfair to blame that on any GM. Plus I personally feel the manager quit on his team and that was as much of the problem as anything.

Hey I don't dislike Ned..I don't really care, I just want to win. I think he's made some good moves and some bad. I just find it funny that the one guy (fact is: he was in charge) that actually helped us win something for once gets killed by dodger fans like he is the antichrist.

2006-07-27 17:00:43
213.   natepurcell

He just argues because hes bored. Or at least thats what he told me the other day when I almost put a bullet in my own head to end the insanity.

2006-07-27 17:01:42
214.   overkill94
Is it ironic to anyone else that everyone was up in arms when the rumor of Soriano for Broxton was supposed to be a done deal, but now all of a sudden these same people are up in arms because we don't have a power hitter?
2006-07-27 17:03:07
215.   natepurcell

Im not saying the moves Depo made didn't help in winning the division, because they did. I'm saying though, the moves that Depo made wouldn't have mattered whatsoever if Beltre didnt have the year he had.

We weren't a very good team. I mean, come on, look at what we had in our starting staff! But we did win and it was awesome. That game where we clinched was one of the best games in a long long long time.

2006-07-27 17:04:02
216.   bhsportsguy
209 Hi Nate, just thought you might want to check this fitting day for Titleist Golf

Mile Square GC Fitting Day

If anyone wants to play Tuesday morning, let me know, I think it will be cooler. Anywhere in SoCal good, though I need to be back up in LA by 3.

2006-07-27 17:04:34
217.   bluetahoe
201. My track record hasn't been so good of late. The one year I thought we wouldn't be so good (2004) we were good. In 2005 I thought we would win 95-100. This year I was looking at 90-95. With the exception of 2004 I'm generally a positive petey before the season opener. And this team was an absolute JOY to watch the 1st half of the season.
2006-07-27 17:05:01
218.   King of the Hobos
214 No, because if that deal were about to happen right now, most of us would be up in arms over losing Broxton.
2006-07-27 17:06:27
219.   blue22
I think I'd do soriano-for-broxton if LA was in 1st place, rather than last right now.

I think Broxton is done as a starter, so it'd be ok by me to move him.

2006-07-27 17:06:33
220.   natepurcell

Yea I saw that. I was planning on going but I decided I want Cleveland irons so theres no point in going. Although I might want to check out those Vokey Spin Mill wedges. I heard those are sexxxyyy.

2006-07-27 17:07:09
221.   natepurcell

So maybe you can tone down all the Colletti/Midas talk now?

2006-07-27 17:08:16
222.   ssjames
This thread is just miserable read, I understand the frustration, but I think people are going a little overboard.

Also, is that really the details of Vince Young's deal? If so, Bush's demand of 6/$60 looks cheap by comparision.

2006-07-27 17:08:39
223.   jasonungar05
215 I can agree with that.
2006-07-27 17:09:22
224.   Ladderkite
212 - Yknow, It is kind of overlooked in the mainstream what Milton brought to the team that year. Let's not start reliving the glory days yet, but remember how he never forgot to hold up the front of the jersey after a big play. I dug that. My man loved his jersey flashing. I miss him on the squad, but what's done is done.

Now, back to thunderdome.

2006-07-27 17:11:30
225.   thinkblue0
I dont feel like arguing over something that has been beaten like a bloody hooker on sunset for the past 2 years.

funniest post yet.

2006-07-27 17:11:50
226.   natepurcell

Milton the intense baseball player I missed. Milton the injury prone pansy I dont miss.

2006-07-27 17:12:00
227.   bhsportsguy
216 I have a 56 degree Volkey sand wedge, it is nice but Cleveland makes some good ones too.
2006-07-27 17:12:46
228.   Ladderkite
224 - What's done is done.
2006-07-27 17:13:13
229.   Ladderkite
226 - oops.
2006-07-27 17:14:53
230.   Steve
Nate, what would be the highest you would go for a centerpiece in soriano trade? Would you do Guzman plus?
2006-07-27 17:16:18
231.   CanuckDodger
187 -- Martin's make-up is something that I don't think I should have to explain to anybody who is even casually following the Dodgers. Little, Colletti, Dodger pitchers, other Dodger position players all just keep saying the same things that scouts were saying about Martin's make-up long before he ever set foot in Dodger Stadium. Mature beyond his years, carries himself like a veteran, shows a strong desire to get even better than he is in all facets of the game, works hard.

By contrast, Navarro has shown a poor work ethic since he was in the minors. Scouts complained about it when he was with the Yankees, and the Yankees' personnel got after him about it, though to little effect. I heard from a Dodger fan who goes to Vero Beach for spring training every year that this spring the Dodgers' coaches were all griping about Navarro being out of shape and not working hard to do anything about it.

Physical conditioning is more important for a catcher than it is for players at some other positions. Remember Angel Pena? Pena was our #1 prospect in the late 90's. He was talked about by some like he would be the next Piazza. His Double A offensive line was quite excellent. Bad make-up was his undoing. He basically ate himself out of a major league career.

2006-07-27 17:16:40
232.   Humma Kavula
2 Ks in the first for Elbert.
2006-07-27 17:17:07
233.   capdodger
202 - Ah, yes...
The Kruschev philosophy of leadership, to paraphrase:
'Welcome, Tavarish Brezhnev. I advise you to write two letters. The first blames should blame all your problems on me. The second should be your resignation. Enjoy!'
2006-07-27 17:17:42
234.   natepurcell

I am in the process of completely overhualing my golf bag. Everything besides my putter and maybe my 3wood is going away. So new Clev CG4 iron, new TM r7 460 driver, 52 and 56 degree spin mills and a halo 2i hybrid.

Depending on how much i like the halo, i might get the 1i 14 degree one and just replace my 3 wood with it.

I think can get everything if i shop smart on ebay brand new for around 700.

2006-07-27 17:18:24
235.   Steve
Sam, if the nats keep winning could soriano come off the table and they would just take the draft picks?
2006-07-27 17:18:42
236.   natepurcell
Nate, what would be the highest you would go for a centerpiece in soriano trade? Would you do Guzman plus?

The "competitive" season is over. I wouldn't deal for soriano.

2006-07-27 17:18:43
237.   King of the Hobos
If we're starting Suns Thoughts, the live box score says Carlos Alvarez, a lefty relief prospect, will be starting at 1B and batting 5th. Unfortunately, unlike the Suns lineups of last year, this one is boring and lacks many prospects (Raglani has the best shot at the majors).
2006-07-27 17:21:47
238.   D4P
Regarding dealing for SWAGGER, one should distinguish between:

1. A long-term deal, or
2. A two-month rental, prior to his return to the Yankees.

2006-07-27 17:24:09
239.   natepurcell
Unfortunately, unlike the Suns lineups of last year, this one is boring and lacks many prospects (Raglani has the best shot at the majors).

I think Hu and Abreu have better shots at being major league regulars then Raglani.

2006-07-27 17:25:35
240.   Steve
I would only trade for a two month rental and draft picks. But to clarify, I was speaking hypothetically and without regard to the last two weeks.
2006-07-27 17:26:24
241.   bhsportsguy
234 Once you know what you like don't forget websites like Edwin Watts unless the golf course you work at can get you the same prices.

237 And yet they keep winning despite not having the Jacksonville 5.

2006-07-27 17:27:49
242.   King of the Hobos
239 I missed Abreu's name in the lineup somehow (but I completely agree, he has a better shot than Raglani). Hu is not in the lineup.
2006-07-27 17:31:26
243.   bhsportsguy
241 I stand corrected as I just checked out the prices myself on EBay, go for it Nick.

John Meloan in Vero Beach, 5 IP, 4 hits (2 solo HRs) 10Ks and zero walks. Game tied 2-2 bottom of the 5th.

2006-07-27 17:33:04
244.   natepurcell
I stand corrected as I just checked out the prices myself on EBay, go for it Nick.

Funny, I have a younger brother named Nick.

2006-07-27 17:33:40
245.   bhsportsguy
242 Hu was the 10th best SS prospect (1st defensively, some scouts say by a lot). Basically will be the prototypical good glove (some say great glove and range), ranked by Kevin Goldstein in BP today.
2006-07-27 17:33:48
246.   Marty
What does Nick think of Soriano?
2006-07-27 17:34:11
247.   bhsportsguy
Sorry about that Nate LOL.
2006-07-27 17:38:49
248.   Steve
The Dodgers gotta hire both of you?
2006-07-27 17:39:30
249.   King of the Hobos
The Devil Rays have made an offer to Lugo. If they can lock him up, that catapults Izturis to the top of the SS market.
2006-07-27 17:39:59
250.   dzzrtRatt
233 So the question is: Is Colletti Yuri Andropov or Mikhail Gorbachev?

Me, I need a drink. Which makes me Boris Yeltsin.

Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2006-07-27 17:48:14
251.   Greg Brock
Wow. Rough thread.
2006-07-27 17:49:37
252.   JoeyP
There seems to be less give and take when this happens

I'm not preventing anyone from posting, so therefore I have no control over the give and take. Its very hard to argue against logic, no matter the Jim Tracy's of the world. Perhaps there is less give and take, because some previously held positions have been proven as illogical by the discourse that has been exchanged? It wouldnt make sense to continually argue against something that has been proven false. If you make a scientific proof about something that refutes a given position, most likely there will be less give- and take, as one side has been proven correct.

It feels a lot less like a discussion and more like one constant rant, on the basic theme of "Depo genius, Ned dope."

You've misunderstood my posts. I'm in favor of logic, reason, and analysis when it comes to baseball. I'm in favor of those. It has nothing to do with the principle players executing those decisions, it has everything to do with those decisions themselves.

2006-07-27 17:50:48
253.   bhsportsguy
Meloan is from your school territory, what do you think of this former college pitcher, who after today has a 6/1 KK/BB ratio for his total year and is averaging 15ks per 9 innings.
2006-07-27 17:53:20
254.   Gen3Blue
I was intrested to see that Dodger Stadium was a hitters park for the first almost 2/3 of this season. At Baseball Analysts they think it might revert towards it traditional numbers, however when you fill your foul territory with new seats, this ain't neccesarily so. I think its good, our next crop of prospects are hitters.
2006-07-27 17:54:16
255.   bhsportsguy
252 And even Joey would admit that even by that standard, there will be bad moves but at least you can explain them, what he hates are moves, good or bad that you can't explain rationally you have to cover it by saying things like clubhouse chemistry or makeup.
2006-07-27 17:54:33
256.   natepurcell

I saw Meloan almost throw a no hitter in 2004. He made it to the 8th and then gave up a hit and got takent out. He has decent stuff, fastball 89-92 with a very good knuckle curve. He was effectively wild in College. He walked alot of guys but didnt give up alot of hits and pitched well around the walks.

Hes a big boy. not fat, just alot of muscle on him. Broad shoulders. I always thought he would be awesome as a power late inning reliever. His fastball would probably go up a notch and his knuckle curve would be more devastating.

2006-07-27 18:00:00
257.   Robert Daeley
Speaking of makeup, one of our GC Dodgers prospects just got arrested for burglary, apparently on fellow players:

"Christopher Hobdy, a 19-year-old pitcher for the Gulf Coast Dodgers in the rookie Gulf Coast League, was arrested Wednesday night and charged with seven counts of burglary and six counts of petit theft. He was also charged with trespassing and barred from returning to Dodgertown, the Vero Beach Press Journal reported for Friday's editions."

2006-07-27 18:00:20
258.   JoeyP
255. Exactly!
2006-07-27 18:01:15
259.   natepurcell

I dont like judging people by their myspaces but Hobdy comes across as a huge thug on his.

2006-07-27 18:03:24
260.   King of the Hobos
256 If he's striking out guys at his current rate, while rarely walking anyone, why bother putting him in the pen? I think it's pretty clear that the Dodgers want him as a starter, otherise he would have remained a reliever instead of build up innings.

254 The whole league seems different. Colorado has a park factor of 1.01, RFK has 1.10, Dodger Stadium is at 1.07, Arlington is at 1.00, and Fenway is at 0.92. 13 teams have had their park factor fluctuate at least +/- 0.1 from last year, which is fairly significant (although sample size is not).

Also, has anyone determined why Carlos Alvarez is playing 1st and batting 5th?

2006-07-27 18:05:58
261.   natepurcell

That was my inning 2 years ago when I saw him pitch and when the Dodgers drafted him. he was basically a two plus pitch pitcher in college.

2006-07-27 18:07:19
262.   Gen3Blue
I'm going to try to stay up to midnight.Even back east that should mean <4 days to go.
I remember when Lasorda gave every thing away, and it didn't get us anything.
2006-07-27 18:11:21
263.   Eric L
262 Back then, everything was literally Paul Konerko and Denys Reyes. If you give up 2 prospects and are accused of giving everything way, then you ain't got much to begin with.

Not that Lasorda didn't make a bad trade....

2006-07-27 18:18:14
264.   ToyCannon
I'd have no problem trading Broxton for a player who is not a rental if they are just going to keep him in the bullpen. His HR rate is scary and if he could bring in a power bat or young starting pitcher I'd be all for it. I'd trade him in a blink for anyone of the young Marlin pitchers named Olsen, Sanchez, and Johnson. I'd even throw another prospect in to make it happen
2006-07-27 18:21:11
265.   dzzrtRatt
255 Assuming everyone agrees that in a logical discussion there is no basis for including factors like a player's personality or character.

Look, I don't disagree with the concept that statistics rule baseball. But they rule in the same sense a prime minister rules, not a dictator. They are the primary factor, but not the only factor.

I also think the weakness with cloaking one's viewpoints in the mantle of "science" is that the science of baseball (or of anything else) is far from reaching its final point, where everything can be explained by a set of iron laws or principles. There are simply too many variables, and the way one GM weighs the variables relative to one another will be different than the way another one does. It doesn't wash with me to call Colletti's moves "illogical" because the reality might be that his priorities simply are different.

Finally, as I said earlier, baseball exists in a marketplace, and in any marketplace, factors external to sheerly measureable value enter into the discussion. That's why companies advertise and do PR and marketing, rather than simply building a better mousetrap and pricing it one penny below the competition and then wait for the sales to roll in. In a marketplace, you can't let the best be the enemy of the good, or else you sometimes wind up with neither.

2006-07-27 18:21:25
266.   Gen3Blue
263 You are right although as I recall also Lilly. Not much, but it was virtually everything we had. Thats what hurt so much.
I want to see these guys grow together like Rusell, Garvey, Lopes and Cey. If thats a wierd kind of fan, so be it.
2006-07-27 18:28:20
267.   Gen3Blue
264 I agree. If you are using a young pitcher for a reliever and can get a good starter for him---Trade. Even Gagne tried as a starter.
2006-07-27 18:36:45
268.   Bluebleeder87
but Gagne become a legend?
2006-07-27 18:38:25
269.   Bluebleeder87
one more thing, Jon's stuff on Gagne (SI.COM) is certified goosebump reading.(garanteed!)
2006-07-27 18:40:13
270.   ToyCannon
And then just as quickly became a salary albatross. Has anyone done so little to earn 20 million not named Driefort or Chan Ho or OP. Anyone see a trend?
2006-07-27 18:40:41
271.   Blu2
250 Colletti is Rasputin...
2006-07-27 18:41:40
272.   CanuckDodger
After we drafted Hobdy last year Logan White said Hobdy reminded him of a "young Dave Stewart." At the time, I smirked and thought to myself that we could look forward to Hobdy getting arrested for getting orally gratified in a public place by a transvestite hooker. As it turns out, same excrement, different pile.
2006-07-27 18:42:29
273.   Humma Kavula
Elbert just struck out his 10th.
2006-07-27 18:42:51
274.   Humma Kavula
2006-07-27 18:45:39
275.   Sam DC
I dont like judging people by their myspaces

I've learned a new phrase!

On Sori

I sure don't think he makes sense for the Dodgers as a rental, and the Nationals won't permit extension negotiations before a deal. And he's said many times he wants to test the full market in the offseason and with the gaudy numbers he's putting up and the crazy GMs out there, why wouldn't he.

Soriano seems really locked in right now though and I do think a team that feels real confident it's going to make the playoffs would do well to pay a fair price for him. He's playing a solid left too.

Bowden has said all along that, if the price isn't right, he's happy to keep Soriano for the picks. That's a lot easier for him to do now with the team winning a little, and more important having just completed a six-game homestand with 30K at the park everynight. At least he can feel like there are fans he's pleasing by keeping him.

I was saying on a Nationals site a couple of days ago that starting pitching prospects seem grossly overvalued right now. Not that they aren't super valuable, but with the Liriano and Kazmir cautionary tales out there, teams just are gun shy in the extreme. So, seems to me, a logical GM would either hang on to potential free agents and max out draft picks to have a shot at drafting pitching, or make teams overpay in position player prospects. If you just can't have Mike Pelfrey no matter what, insist on three other guys.

Sorry for the long answer, but the dynamic with Bowden is just very wierd now (no great shock there). There's so much coverage of the deal or no deal, it's hard to know how it affects him. He seems pretty immature to me, and I worry for the Nationals that other GMs believe they can take advantage of him (i.e., that, having built up the deal as the cornerstone of rebuilding, he will get desparate at the end). If you're interested (and strong of stomach), read these Bowden quotes collected at Capitol Punishment --

2006-07-27 18:49:23
276.   thinkingblue

wow, how many has he walked though?

2006-07-27 18:50:31
277.   D4P
Soriano: yet another guy who magically figured out how to hit HRs more frequently during his "contract" year.

ABs/HR since 2002:


2006-07-27 18:51:11
278.   Humma Kavula
276 I think just one, but I confess that I'm only half-paying attention.

He hasn't allowed any runs.

That's through six innings.

2006-07-27 18:51:32
279.   thinkingblue
3 huh, well that's ok, only 5 base runners in 6 innings, and 11Ks, that's really impressive.
2006-07-27 18:52:51
280.   Humma Kavula
Yep, 3 walks and 2 hits.

Pitching into the 7th!

2006-07-27 18:53:33
281.   Humma Kavula
2006-07-27 18:54:53
282.   Humma Kavula
2006-07-27 18:56:35
283.   Bluebleeder87

I hear you, but wow was he awesome.

2006-07-27 18:57:31
284.   thinkingblue
I take it Elbert is not being challenged a lot by the southern league.
2006-07-27 18:58:03
285.   Humma Kavula
I believe I have a new favorite minor leaguer.

7 2 0 0 3 13 0 so far!

2006-07-27 18:58:26
286.   thinkingblue

What about Drew?

2006-07-27 19:00:59
287.   Humma Kavula
284 It seems that way, but I don't know anything about this stuff. The announcer is saying that the Biscuits are in first -- they went into this game tied with jacksonville, 19-14 -- but none of the D-Rays top 20 prospects, according to Sickels, are on the team.
2006-07-27 19:02:05
288.   D4P
What about Drew?



2006-07-27 19:06:07
289.   Humma Kavula
Elbert's done. That's a great performance.
2006-07-27 19:08:36
290.   StolenMonkey86
288 - Drew performed well enough until he broke. Now he's not broken enough for the DL apparently, but enough for his homer rate to be hurting
2006-07-27 19:14:38
291.   D4P
Not even Grittle's "give DJ a bunch of days off" strategy kept him from getting hurt. I guess he's just really unlucky...
2006-07-27 19:24:06
292.   trainwreck
Elbert is god.

Back to homework.

2006-07-27 19:25:05
293.   trainwreck
You can add another o, to god if one likes.
2006-07-27 19:36:36
294.   Bluebleeder87

The 0= great & awesome.

2006-07-27 19:51:24
295.   Paul Scott
Buy or sell. That's the traditional trading deadline dilemma.

With Colletti it is most certainly a dilemma.

Jon - my question for you is when you used the word "dilemma" did you use it with intent and it's true meaning - in which case I personally think it was very clever - or did you use it in its colloquial meaning just "tough choice." I hope the former. :)

2006-07-27 19:55:40
296.   Gen3Blue
It really seems like a statistically unlikely number of hitters seem to have great years in their contract years. I never used to consider myself paranoid.
However, with the apparent usage of HGH and the coorporate scandals like Enron, if Barry Bonds trainers, Arizona, or Scott Boras could ever be linked, I would distance myself as far as I could.
2006-07-27 20:00:44
297.   Jon Weisman
295 - I have to cop to being not that clever, sorry :)
2006-07-27 20:16:58
298.   StolenMonkey86
(To the tune of a song that I can't get out of my head but can't remember the title of)

I'd like to trade Drew
For a prospect or two
But I don't know what Flanders will do

The next guy to be here
Could top Andre Ethi-er
But we might get stuck with Danys Baez.

He could go after Sori
Ano, but won't get Torri
Hunter, 'cause the Twins are real good now.

If he sells the farm
That would do lots of harm
'Cause that's the Dodgers' best shot at the future

Ledee, Cruz, and Lofton
We say it quite often
Trade the vets, hold on to the prospects!

2006-07-27 20:18:05
299.   King of the Hobos
Loney's not playing tonight, despite getting a game off 4 days ago. Jeff Duncan is playing LF, so it's not like every position he plays is blocked (he played LF 2 of the last 3 days even). Routine game off despite not playing a few days ago? Or could Nomar have had further complications with his knee? Duncan played in Repko's stead the night before he was called up, if that means anything.
2006-07-27 20:20:18
300.   StolenMonkey86
Should we just stay on Jeff Duncan watch to see who's next?
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2006-07-27 20:21:41
301.   StolenMonkey86
298 - bah, that should be E-thier, not Ethi-er
2006-07-27 20:21:52
302.   Gen3Blue
There are some teams in between. But there are two rather distinct groups. One has less income and makes do with mostly young players who do not have free agent rights, and journeyman players who don't command big contracts. The other (typically with payrolls over 80,000,000 a year,) sign stars to long term contracts worth many(often 10 mil) a year. Some teams are better at this than others, but it can be argued that this is a crap shoot. Less than half stay healthy or perform well over the length of their contract.
Without going in to specifics, it would be wonderful if the D's could develop players and stay away from the crap shoot for a while.
2006-07-27 20:30:39
303.   Sam DC
Tomorrow's paper today: Tom Boswell says maybe the Nationals should keep Soriano.

2006-07-27 20:34:00
304.   Uncle Miltie
Was just at Hermosa skating at the Pier. The weather sucks in the day time but it's beautiful in the evening.

Elbert is an animal! I've heard people refer to him as a left handed Billingsley. If he continues to develop (mostly in the control department), he should be up here in the middle of next season. I am praying that he is one of the guys that Ned deems untouchable.

2006-07-27 20:41:10
305.   StolenMonkey86
304 - If I remember correctly, Chuck Tiffany was traded because the organization felt that Elbert had surpassed him, making Tiffany expendable.
2006-07-27 20:42:54
306.   thinkingblue

I've got one to the tune of system of a down:

Such an awful team
And it's ours.

The most awfulest team of my life

Such an awful team, should be banned
It's a team that I can't stand

The most awfulest team of my life
The most awfulest team of my life

Such an awful team, shouldn't exist
It's a team that we'll never miss

Such an awful team
and it's ours.

The most awfulest team of my life.

Danys, if you go
Kenny should go with you

If Izzy leaves too
LaRoche should come up too

Sell the vets and walk away...

The most awfulest team of my life
The most awfulest team of my life

the most awfulest team of my life-

Such an awful team
and its ours

It's a team we'll be glad we survived.

2006-07-27 20:43:23
307.   D4P
Oddly enough, Tampa Bay considered Lance Carter to be "expendable" as well...
2006-07-27 20:45:50
308.   JoeyP
Piazza is having one very fine season.
2006-07-27 20:50:59
309.   thinkingblue
I wanted the keep Tiffany. He wanted to be a dodger.
2006-07-27 21:05:03
310.   JoeyP
Another blown save for Trevor Hoffman!
2006-07-27 21:07:01
311.   Greg Brock
307 Who's Lance Carter? Never heard of him.
2006-07-27 21:07:15
312.   thinkingblue

I just don't think Trevor can get great hitters our anymore.

The one game he saved against us, he shut down Izturis, Cruz, and Martinez. I'm pretty sure anyone can do that.

2006-07-27 21:12:01
313.   dzzrtRatt
311 isn't he the guy from 'n'sync who just came out of the closet?
2006-07-27 21:14:24
314.   King of the Hobos
312 Are you sure about that? I know at least one pitcher who might struggle with those guys (hint: 307).
2006-07-27 21:15:41
315.   D4P
Heh, I was thinking the exact same thing.
2006-07-27 21:16:23
316.   StolenMonkey86
311 - The Danys Baez disaster setup man. Once he left, though, Baez had to take over and create his own disasters.
2006-07-27 21:18:04
317.   thinkingblue

not very consistantly he can't. did you see the all star game?
2006-07-27 21:18:14
318.   StolenMonkey86
312 - I have to agree. His K rate has hit the floor this year, and he doesn't throw very hard, relying on balls in play. I saw him at RFK and he wasn't intimidating, and got very lucky with his "save" (including a game-ending diving catch of a line drive by the third baseman).
2006-07-27 21:19:45
319.   StolenMonkey86
Inside the Dodgers has a new post up, with shocking news about Tommy Lasorda.
2006-07-27 21:19:56
320.   JoeyP
Didnt the Padres give Hoffman a multi-year extension?

That one is gonna hurt.
There's a place for sentiment, but not in multi million dollar industry of professional sports.

2006-07-27 21:23:07
321.   JoeyP
Hoffman loses the Pads their 4th game IIRC since the All-Star break.

Dodgers close to within 7 games of 1st place.

2006-07-27 21:27:18
322.   D4P
Dodgers close to within 7 games of 1st place

Buy! Buy! Buy!

2006-07-27 21:30:09
323.   thinkingblue

LOL, that's what Plaschke must be thinking.

2006-07-27 21:40:28
324.   dzzrtRatt
y'know, for an in-house blog, Rawitch does an awfully good job. He seems like a human being, not a flack, and when he's flacking it seems perfectly natural, like, why else would I be here? Above all, he's generally interesting, which most in-house blogs completely fail to be.
2006-07-27 21:41:52
325.   thinkingblue

yea, I remember that highlight, the batter hit a sharp liner, and it was a utility player, luckily for Trevor though, the 2B or SS caught it in the air.

2006-07-27 21:50:16
326.   natepurcell
good game by Elbert.
2006-07-27 21:52:59
327.   thinkblue0
anyone have any new rumors?

I hope this deadline isn't a dud like last year's.

2006-07-27 21:53:19
328.   Jon Weisman
324 - Very much agree.
2006-07-27 21:55:13
329.   Greg Brock
319 I guess I'm a bad person for rooting for a 58 game losing streak.

I kid the elderly Italians.

2006-07-27 21:56:16
330.   StolenMonkey86
bottom of the 9th, 1 out, man on first, down 2, Kemp on deck
2006-07-27 21:57:09
331.   StolenMonkey86
Valdez singles, Kemp represents the winning run at the plate
2006-07-27 21:58:39
332.   thinkingblue

If by that you mean you hope the dodgers don't hold on to dead weight, couldn't agree more.

2006-07-27 22:01:47
333.   thinkingblue

any chance he gets a start at AAA this year?

2006-07-27 22:02:07
334.   StolenMonkey86
full count, and he takes strike 3 down the middle on the bottom edge of the strike zone

here comes Guzman

2006-07-27 22:02:56
335.   StolenMonkey86
but this year's dead weight has veteran leadership skills
2006-07-27 22:03:38
336.   StolenMonkey86
Kemp fouled off a few, and did not swing and miss, for what it's worth
2006-07-27 22:03:53
337.   thinkblue0
new rumor: Buster Olney was apparently on the radio in NY saying the Marlins are scouting the Red Sox system...says they could end up with Miguel Cabrera.

Probably bogus. But if somehow Cabrera is on the market, I sure hope we at least try to get in on it.

2006-07-27 22:03:54
338.   natepurcell

Id let him stay in AA the whole year to work on his control.

2006-07-27 22:04:20
339.   thinkingblue

How many times did he K? That's my only question about Kemp, will he learn to stop K'ing?

Nate, do his K's concern you?

2006-07-27 22:06:00
340.   StolenMonkey86
That is terrible.

The game ended on a pickoff. Boo, Jeff Duncan.

2006-07-27 22:06:28
341.   thinkingblue

I just hope he doesn't trade Broxton, Elbert, and Orenduff for a mediocre catcher.

oh wait, didn't he already...nevermind ;)

2006-07-27 22:07:04
342.   StolenMonkey86
that was his only K of the night
2006-07-27 22:07:33
343.   natepurcell

He didnt K that much in AA, he didnt k that much in single A.

hes 21, hes suppose to K alot in the majors. The strike outs dont concern me because at the levels he should have been at, he didnt strike out alot.

2006-07-27 22:07:41
344.   thinkingblue

I just find it terrible that I got more emotional over that then the past 8 games.

2006-07-27 22:07:57
345.   StolenMonkey86
Bellorin and Young, though, each had 3 K's and a walk
2006-07-27 22:09:09
346.   natepurcell
Kemp is striking out around 19-20% of his ABs in AAA, and even a bit lower in AA when he was there.
2006-07-27 22:10:46
347.   natepurcell
Meloan is really interesting right now. His control has been awesome, which was his achilles heel in college.
2006-07-27 22:13:03
348.   StolenMonkey86
Miller struck out 2 and walked 1 on 17 pitches
2006-07-27 22:13:10
349.   natepurcell
has this been linked yet? Elbert article.

2006-07-27 22:14:49
350.   StolenMonkey86
344 - That was just bad, and it robbed Guzman of the chance to hit a walkoff homer.
Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2006-07-27 22:17:32
351.   natepurcell
ahhh, from the article..

However, his place in that system isn't fully established. Elbert has been used almost exclusively as a starter throughout his professional career, making 54 of his 57 career appearances as a starter. But, his role at the highest level could be out of the bullpen. Elbert has shown the composure and aggressiveness required to pitch in tight spots.

shut up stupid writer.

2006-07-27 22:18:57
352.   thinkingblue
DON'T MAKE HIM A RELIEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2006-07-27 22:21:16
353.   natepurcell
there is NO reason for Elbert to be a reliever.

Why even bring that up is annoying and ridiculous.

2006-07-27 22:21:23
354.   thinkingblue

I would start a riot if the dodgers made Elbert a reliever, why the would the dodgers even CONSIDER that? That would be freaking stupid. He has a chance to be one of the 4 or 5 best lefty's in the game, and you consider making him a RELIVER?!!!!

2006-07-27 22:21:58
355.   StolenMonkey86
351 - "Which Minor League job should's writers take on?
Concession sales
Ticket sales
General manager
Scoreboard operator
Promotions coordinator
Field manager"
2006-07-27 22:22:49
356.   Frip
I don't want Nomar to go. He is a good fellow, pleasant to look at, and a really good baseball player. And he is a Dodger. Affection should count for something.
2006-07-27 22:24:09
357.   King of the Hobos
It seems Carlos Lee rejected a 4 year, $48 million deal from the Brewers, making it more likely that he'll be dealt. Anyone else sense a Nomar-esque collapse with his new team?
2006-07-27 22:24:49
358.   natepurcell
He is a good fellow, pleasant to look at

He could be a sex symbol in LA!

2006-07-27 22:28:23
359.   D4P
And he is a Dodger

Does this mean we can't get rid of Baez...?

2006-07-27 22:30:53
360.   Goiter
Regarding the idea of making Elbert a reliever....I wouldn't make him a reliever in the minors. However, he could be called up to the majors as a reliever and then go back to starting pitching after a month or so. That's what the Twins did with Liriano and he's done great so far.
2006-07-27 22:32:34
361.   StolenMonkey86
LaRoche went 1-4 with a double, 1 R, 1K.

Kemp went 2-5 with a triple, 2 RBI, and a K.

Guzman was 0-4 with a K before what should have been a 3 run homer, but never happened.

Loney struck out as a PH.

Matt Kemp's Vegas OPS is now tops, at .983, to James Loney at .960. Still only 1 homer for Kemp tho.

2006-07-27 22:34:03
362.   natepurcell

Which is fine because that would be a temporary move to ease him into the majors; something that I dont have a problem with happnening. But the author seem to imply that the bullpen would be Elberts permenant destination. A 20 yr old lefty with his stuff, era, k rate and hit rate, do not go to the bullpen.

2006-07-27 22:34:50
363.   natepurcell

Seems like Loney's OPS peaked at 1011, hopefully it can spik a bit up again.

2006-07-27 22:36:44
364.   King of the Hobos
361 Loney's PH destroyed my Loney theory. Any reason why he now has had 2 days off during the last 5 games? Is giving Jeff Duncan ABs that important?
2006-07-27 22:37:29
365.   StolenMonkey86
Hey, what can you tell me about Sergio Garcia? I'm looking through the stats at Vegas, and after Aybar and LaRoche, he's got the best AB/HR number of anyone born in the 80s (26.80, Young is next at 26.86).
2006-07-27 22:38:11
366.   StolenMonkey86
363 - well it was the bottom of the 9th
2006-07-27 22:41:35
367.   King of the Hobos
365 Complete fluke. He has yet to hit a homer in Jacksonville this year in a similar number of ABs, and has shown no power in the past. He's an organizational utility guy, and will be lucky to ever reach the majors.
2006-07-27 22:41:54
368.   dzzrtRatt
337 Why would the Marlins trade Cabrera, for anybody? He's not yet at the big-bucks leveraging stage is he? And even if he is, why wouldn't they try to keep him?

This might be die-hard Yankee fan Olney trying to get the Cashman off his duff to make a play for Carlos Lee or somebody.

2006-07-27 22:42:28
369.   StolenMonkey86
365 - looking at his numbers, you'd think Vegas was the AA and Jacksonville was the AAA.

Sergio Garcia
Vegas (134 AB)
.313/.412/.485, 20 BB, 17 K, 4 SB, 0 CS, 5 HR
Jacksonville (122 AB)
.221/.285/.295, 12 BB, 17 K, 0 SB, 2 CS, 0 HR

2006-07-27 22:43:21
370.   dzzrtRatt
337 Why would the Marlins trade Cabrera, for anybody? He's not yet at the big-bucks leveraging stage is he? And even if he is, why wouldn't they try to keep him?

This might be die-hard Yankee fan Olney trying to get the Cashman off his duff to make a play for Carlos Lee or somebody.

2006-07-27 22:45:11
371.   StolenMonkey86
367 - oh, ok. Thanks.
2006-07-27 23:15:38
372.   thinkingblue
I just don't see the point in making Elbert relieve at all. His BB rate is still a bit high, and that might hurt him in a relif role no?
2006-07-27 23:23:13
373.   Steve
303 -- I wonder where he got that idea.
2006-07-27 23:25:05
374.   thinkblue0
Why would the Marlins trade Cabrera, for anybody? He's not yet at the big-bucks leveraging stage is he? And even if he is, why wouldn't they try to keep him?

I think it's bogus. Although, it IS at least worth mentioning. If they dont ever plan on paying him, then they should probably look into dealing him.

If I were them I'd cash in on Willis while I could.

2006-07-27 23:27:42
375.   trainwreck
I'm going to use my jump to conclusions mat and say Elbert and Kershaw will be our Santana and Liriano.
2006-07-27 23:28:35
376.   ToyCannon
I guess the beat writer saw that we made Kuo a reliever and then Miller so he figured when the Dodgers have a southpaw with stuff his likely destination is the bullpen:)
2006-07-27 23:29:31
377.   gibsonhobbs88
Slightly less than 86 hours to the trade deadline and DT readers and posters homping at the bit to tar and feather Colletti! Colletti-resist the temptation to obtain a rental veteran and give up the future, resist, resist!! We all need to do a Vulcan mind meld with Colletti, "Keep the prospects, Keep the prospects!! Unless the Marlins drop Cabrera or Willis in our lap as a gift, wanting old used gloves and a couple used veterans in return, don't do it, don't give up the future!! "Stay away from the light"!
2006-07-27 23:30:15
378.   ToyCannon
Last time I used the conclusion mat I had E Jackson and Miller becoming our Drysdale/Koufax combo. I hope you have better luck with your mat then I did.
2006-07-27 23:31:02
379.   gibsonhobbs88
377 - Typo, I meant Chomping at the bit!
2006-07-27 23:33:50
380.   ToyCannon
Plenty of players I'd trade our prospects for as long as it is not for a 2 month rental.
Austin Kearns & Felipe Lopez come to mind. By Monday we may have changed our minds about Mr. Bowden and his abilities.
2006-07-27 23:36:23
381.   gibsonhobbs88
375- Oh that is really jumping the gun! I would be happy if they can compare favorably to Fernando/Hershiser or even Reuss/Sutton. I think you are being a tad optimistic for two guys that are not yet above AA. Put a reign on you, dreamboy. Let's not go off the deep end now!! You could be doing more harm than good to those kids putting those unrealistic expectations on them.
2006-07-27 23:38:35
382.   gibsonhobbs88
380- I said a "rental" veteran. That is what I meant about keep the prospects. A rental veteran is not going to do us much good this season.
2006-07-27 23:38:45
383.   trainwreck
I bought an Edwin Jackson jersey, now I look like a big Jose Cruz Jr. fan.

My mat is double bust proof!

2006-07-27 23:39:50
384.   trainwreck
People need to stop taking everything so seriously.
2006-07-27 23:44:25
385.   gibsonhobbs88
I still say keep Nomar, some of the other vets can go but Nomar should stay. Penny, Lowe can stay also. Saito, Izzy we might be able to get something for in return, especially Saito. His trade value maybe never better. Youngsters to stay, Ethier, Martin, Kemp, Bills, Broxton, Loney and Laroche off the 40 man roster. Elbert and Kersaw are still at least 1-2 years away!!
2006-07-28 00:14:54
386.   Uncle Miltie
Nice article from Henson in today's Times. Looks like he's been hanging around DT lately.
2006-07-28 00:24:19
387.   StolenMonkey86
386 - yep, but the headline scared me
2006-07-28 00:28:19
388.   JoeyP
"We are still talking from the position of acquiring players rather than moving on," Colletti said. "We are not a seller. I'm talking to teams about acquiring proven big leaguers for prospects."

From Bill Plaschke's pen to Ned Colletti's brain.

2006-07-28 00:33:00
389.   StolenMonkey86
Selling would mean unloading players in the last year of their contracts such as reliever Danys Baez and outfielders Jose Cruz Jr., Kenny Lofton and Ricky Ledee. It would mean trying to find a buyer for a player perceived to be overpaid, such as outfielder J.D. Drew. It would mean trading infielder Cesar Izturis and calling up prospect Andy LaRoche to play third base.

Is it just me, or would all of those moves actually probably have more of an effect of helping the Dodgers win now?

2006-07-28 00:38:56
390.   Greg Brock
If this moron trades away prospects for a two-month rental, with this season a foregone conclusion....GRRRRRRRR.

I will find you, Ned. I will find you and your stupid mustache, and I will probably do nothing.

But I will be thinking very mean things. Very mean. I may even use a swear word. Quietly. To nobody in particular.

2006-07-28 00:41:35
391.   JoeyP
I'm really not that worried about Ned buying a rental. He may say that in the media, but I think its just to throw a bone to the Dodger fans that still think the team is in the race. Whatever GMs say in the media, is really irrelevant IMO.

However, it is alarming that he isnt considering selling off some of the spare parts. Thats sad, if that part is at least true.

2006-07-28 00:52:13
392.   StolenMonkey86
Tony Jackson has a pretty good piece on Ethier's ROY candidacy
2006-07-28 03:46:17
393.   bhsportsguy
391 First, the Dodgers, like all teams, should be part of all discussions regarding player movement and to report them as doing that doesn't really surprise me nor alarm me.

Ned is repeating what he has said for about month now, earlier this week he said something about protecting the future that got Plashcke clones all up in arms.

If the prices go down, I think you look at it.

I am sure there are those that will happy if Lee and Soriano could move soon to other teams.

2006-07-28 06:33:46
394.   Blu2
Every time Flanders lights up his crack pipe, the obsession for acquiring "proven veterans" gets ahold of him. Someone needs to take him out for the good of the club. If McCourt is reading this, you made a terrible choice for a GM. A look at our record proves it. Cut him loose and let NG run the shop.
2006-07-28 06:46:17
395.   Sam DC and will broadcast (For free) today's Baseball Express Cape Cod High School Classic 9 am Pacific. I gather this is a high-profile high-school all-star type game:

The second annual Baseball Express Cape Cod High School Classic will showcase 36 of the most talented high school seniors from across the nation. The Cape Cod Baseball League will serve as official host for the game, providing a historic setting for this event.

The article at says that 6 of the first 50 picks in this year's draft played in last year's game.

2006-07-28 06:56:04
396.   Blu2
The label "proven veteran" is a euphemism for players who have stabilized their level of play at the mediocrity level, just barely good enough to stay in the majors floating from club to club because they're not good enough that anyone wants to keep them. No thanks, I'd rather ride the emotional elevator every year with rookies. At least you have hopes of something good happening every year. And when it does, you get a power ride you never forget. And when some of your prospects fail, they then become 'proven veterans' and there's always an idiot like Flanders who will trade you more prospects for them. Isn't that how the Marlin organization operates?
2006-07-28 08:17:07
397.   Sam DC
If you came here before you went anywhere else today:

"The Milwaukee Brewers are trading slugger Carlos Lee to the Texas Rangers as part of a multi-player deal, learned Friday.

The Brewers are sending Lee, minor-league outfield prospect Nelson Cruz and a player to be named later to the Rangers for relief pitcher Francisco Cordero and outfielders Kevin Mench and Laynce Nix."

2006-07-28 08:24:10
398.   Steve
If the brewers didn't want anything for Lee we could have obliged.
2006-07-28 08:24:50
399.   Sam DC
I guess this means I don't get to see Lee or a Chorizo next month when I am in Milwaukee. (The Chorizo is getting sent down for more seasoning in the minors.)
2006-07-28 08:30:04
400.   Bluebleeder87
361 Matt Kemp's Vegas OPS is now tops, at .983, to James Loney at .960. Still only 1 homer for Kemp tho.

I wouldn't worry about that, if you saw him hit in L.A. the guy has awesome power, believe me he's gonna be o.k. in the dinger department.

Show/Hide Comments 401-450
2006-07-28 08:31:07
401.   underdog
Whew! Now we don't have to worry about giving up prospects for two months of Carlos Lee. I wouldn't say those players the rangers gave are not anything - Mench and Cordero and Nix are all solid, no? Better than Cruz and Baez or whatever - and we probably weren't willing to part with our better prospects. But yeah, if they'd have taken some of our mediocrity for Lee, I'd'a been fine with that.
2006-07-28 08:34:29
402.   Bluebleeder87
390 *I will find you, Ned. I will find you and your stupid mustache, and I will probably do nothing.

But I will be thinking very mean things. Very mean. I may even use a swear word. Quietly. To nobody in particular.*

hallerious (sp?)

2006-07-28 08:35:28
403.   underdog
Hmm, Nelson Cruz is pretty good, too, though. Seems like a better trade for the Rangers, more I think about it. But that's probably the most Doug Melvin could have gotten I bet.
2006-07-28 08:37:10
404.   Steve
Imagine all the nothing we could have piled on the Brewers. They could have been eating roster filler sandwiches for a year. Its a good illustration of the perils and realities of the situation. They would have asked for broxton and Kemp or Guzman from us. From Texas, they'll take two run of the mill outfielders and a middle reliever.
2006-07-28 08:39:57
405.   Steve
By the way, good job Flanders.
2006-07-28 08:40:46
406.   underdog
404 That's a good point. The Dodgers are basically punished for having a good farm system - teams try to manipulate that. When the Dodgers bow out, they have to settle. Still, considering Lee is a rental player and the Rangers likely have no hope of re-signing him, I think outside of robbing the Dodgers, I don't see how they could have gotten a lot more. With the players the Brewers got, it's odd, almost like they're not giving up on this season either.
2006-07-28 08:52:16
407.   Sam DC
SOrt of interesting view into the clubhouse:

Manassas, Va.: Over/under on the Soriano contract from this winter becoming an albatross around the neck of a franchise (like Abreu is now for Philly) 2.5 years. What say You?

Tom Boswell: Nobody is more fit than Soriano. So, if any 30-year-old is going to produce for five years, he's probably it.

BUT the kind of contract he'd get after a 45-40 year might end up being 1/6th of the Nats player budget in '10. I said to one Nats, do you guys really want to spend a seventh or more of your payroll on one guy who's a leadoff man and not a strong defensive player?"

The answer: "He is NOT a 'leadoff man.' And watch how good he ends up being in leftfield. The only ball he still has trouble on is the line drive right in front of him. He's still afraid to trust himself and break in because, if he misjudges it, it'll go over his head. He'll learn that."

If you think the fans have a high opinion of Soriano, it is NOTHING compared to his standing in the clubhouse. I've rarely heard such raves. Part of the reason is that he took so much crap (from a player's perspective) and maintained his dignity. FORCED to switch positions. Lost in arbitration. Etc.

2006-07-28 08:52:45
408.   Steve
I think people who are calling the Kearns/Lopez trade the worst of the last ten years are going to have to rethink their position.
2006-07-28 08:55:02
409.   Sam DC
Nats nation reacts to the Lee trade like this:

1. Egad -- if that's all you get for Carlos Lee what are we really going to get for Alfonso Soriano?

2. Hmmm, maybe the Angels will go nuts now that Texas just got a whole lot better?

2006-07-28 08:56:39
410.   bluetahoe

Blu2, maybe you should find another team to root for. May I suggest the Detroit Tigers or New York Mets. Ned Colletti's going to be here for a LONG time.

Suggesting our GM smokes crack is NOT funny.

You can't honestly think any other GM would have this team with a much better record at this point.

Maybe you wanted Edwin Jackson and DJ Houlton in the rotation all year. I dunno.

Or maybe a bullpen of Duaner, Schmoll, Osoria, Kuo, and Carrara all year. I dunno.

2006-07-28 09:00:54
411.   Eric L
410 Would the team be THAT much worse off with the scenarios that you suggested?
2006-07-28 09:05:14
412.   Paul Scott
You can't honestly think any other GM would have this team with a much better record at this point.

Baseball is too random for that, but yes, a better GM would have the Dodgers possitioned better over the long term than does Midusa.

2006-07-28 09:05:26
413.   King of the Hobos
Giving up Nelson Cruz for Francisco Cordero is stupid, but Kevin Mench is essentially Carlos Lee not in a contract year.

Mench's career- .274/.335/.480, .266 EQA
Lee's career- 284/.338/.494, .274 EQA

Lee is a good player, but he's not that special. He's never had an OPS over .900, and having a career year in the final year of his contract.

2006-07-28 09:08:44
414.   Andrew Shimmin
410- You're just wrong. Suggesting that Flanders smokes crack has great potential for being funny. I won't critique Blu2's attempt, but even if you didn't find it funny, that doesn't mean it couldn't have been.
2006-07-28 09:11:30
415.   regfairfield
I don't think the deal is that bad. They were going to lose Lee anyway, and like King says, Mench isn't that much worse, though part factors has something to do with that.

Cruz was somewhat expendable since the Brewers already have decent outfield talent in Corey Hart and Gabe Gross, plus I can see them moving Bill Hall to center in the future.

I hate acquring relief help, but the Brewers needed it. Dan Kolb is their closer. A guy like Cordero is better than the average middle relief trash with a 3-1 K/BB and he strikes out over a batter an inning.

It's not a trade I'd make if I were in contention, but it's not a bad haul for a guy that wasn't going to help the team in the future.

2006-07-28 09:13:47
416.   MartinBillingsley31
Good minor league system.
Bad GM.

It'd be nice if both were good.

2006-07-28 09:22:13
417.   Daniel Zappala
Classic trade of quantity over quality. But then, I'm not sure Carlos Lee is a superstar anyway.
2006-07-28 09:22:16
418.   still bevens
Mensch looks like he belongs on a team called the Brewers, so everyone is a winner.
2006-07-28 09:28:14
419.   Blu2
410 BlueTahoe, when Jon tells me to leave or deletes my login, I'll consider leaving, but not for you. This is a blog, and anyone can have any opinion as long as they stay within Jon's code of conduct. If someone ran a survey on how good a GM Flanders is, I think I am safe in predicting that 90% of us here think he is the worse since Kevin Malone. And him coming from San Francisco, there isn't any vice I couldn't conceive him having. Now when he trades off the kids for more proven veterans, there is an excellent chance I will make you happy by becoming an ex-Dodger Fan (50 Years!!!) and quit posting. There really are more important things in life.
2006-07-28 09:38:29
420.   bluetahoe
419. Well. Until Mr. Ned starts handing out 5 yr/55 mils to guys like Drew and 3yr/24 mils to guys like OPerez and 4 yr/40 mils to .500 pitchers like Derek Lowe and lays his reputation on the line for guys like Hee Seop Choi, I'm not yet ready to label him the worst GM since Malone just yet.
2006-07-28 09:39:52
421.   bluetahoe
411. Yes
2006-07-28 09:40:31
422.   still bevens
I thought the crack pipe comment was totally hilarious btw. Nice visual.
2006-07-28 09:47:03
423.   regfairfield
How sad is it that there's three candidates for "worst G.M. since Malone"?
2006-07-28 09:51:26
424.   Blu2
If we wanted a candidate for "Good GM", we'd have to go all the way back to Fred Claire or Al Campanis... Just my opinion, of course. I still say Kim Ng was the best choice out there last fall, probably still is.
2006-07-28 09:55:13
425.   underdog
I don't think calling Ned Colletti a crack smoking GM was either funny or fair, but it didn't offend me much. If it gave you pleasure, then I guess it was worth it.

As for "I think I am safe in predicting that 90% of us here think he is the worse since Kevin Malone" - not sure about that. Also not sure how many of us feel a GM can be judged fairly after 6 months and a lot of clean up duty to do. As for whoever thinks he's left us worse off for the future, what are you talking about exactly? One of the best farm systems in baseball is still intact, as well as the addition of another minor leaguer who is now in the running for rookie of the year.

Basically, I may speak for most of the people here when I say that the jury's still out on Ned, that some of his moves have been questionable, some of them have been good, some of them we can't evaluate yet, and some of his non-moves have been good, too. Which isn't too, too bad given all that crack-smoking and moustache primping he does. ;-)

2006-07-28 09:55:48
426.   thinkingblue
yes, now Ned doesn't have a chance to make a stupid trade for Lee.
2006-07-28 09:56:48
427.   Bluebleeder87

a chick G.M. would be cool, different but cool.

2006-07-28 09:57:01
428.   JJoeScott
420 - Or trading for Brent Mayne (.188/.276./.474) to be your primary playoff-run starting catcher. Or then trading for Jason Phillips. Or signing Ricky Ledee. Or Mike Edwards. Or Jose Valentin.
2006-07-28 09:58:42
429.   Bluebleeder87
what's with the crack jokes today?
2006-07-28 09:59:16
430.   Sam DC
Nice open to today's Post profile of Jonathan Papelbon:

"OAKLAND, Calif. -- A beautiful gift fell from the sky this spring and landed at the feet of the Boston Red Sox. It was so radiant, they didn't know what to do with it at first. So precious, they have come to treat it with exceptional care. So powerful, the mind races at what the future could hold. For now, however, it is simply a gift that should be shared with and enjoyed by the world. All behold, Jonathan Papelbon."

2006-07-28 09:59:49
431.   JJoeScott
419 ... anyone can have any opinion as long as they stay within Jon's code of conduct ... I think I am safe in predicting that 90% of us here think he is the worse since Kevin Malone.

FWIW, speaking for everyone is against Jon's code of conduct.

2006-07-28 09:59:56
432.   MartinBillingsley31
I think grady has done a good job so far this season with the pitching staff.
If a starter doesn't get the job done he is moved to the pen, and if a reliever doesn't get the job done and has options he is sent packing (whether that is grady's decision or ned'd or both, i don't know).
But i can't stand that grady continues to start izturis and lofton everyday, and that's why ned needs to "tracy proof" the offense next year, but then again i'm talking about ned, you know the guy that got lofton and mueller and gave a shortstop 13 million per year.
2006-07-28 10:01:02
433.   regfairfield
428 What's wrong with Ricky Ledee? He had a .778 OPS last year, and a .769 this year. What more do you want out of your fourth/fifth outfielder?
2006-07-28 10:01:58
434.   underdog
427 I can only imagine the fun jokes about a woman GM from impatient sports fans.
2006-07-28 10:02:34
435.   regfairfield
429 Why did the butt lose his license?

He had two cars, but he wrecked 'em!

2006-07-28 10:03:13
436.   bluetahoe
425. This is something I'd like to add which I think shows some posters are inconsistent.

Some want to say handing Odalis 3/24 made sense, it was market value at the time, yadda yadda yadda. And you know. That's a good argument and they're probably right. But it turned out to be a HUGE BUST for LA. It didn't matter.

Lets move on to Baez. Seems like everyone wants to bash that deal. If Baez pitches EXACTLY like he did the previuos 3 seasons that deal makes ALL THE SENSE in the world. Especially with the health issues of Gagne and Brazoban's ineffectiveness last season.

2006-07-28 10:06:32
437.   RELX
God, this Colleti/Depo thing is never going to end, is it. How many more years will it go on? Five? Ten? At this point--WHO CARES ANYMORE! Depo is gone, is never coming back.

I will admit I was not a big Depo fan AT THE TIME, but in retrospect, many of his moves turned out ok. I was against the LoDuca trade AT THE TIME, but, now, two years later, the trade turned ok for us because we wound up with the best player out of the bunch, Penny, have essentially replaced LoDuca with Martin, and were right to get rid of Mota when we did. The Finley trade was good, as was the subsequent move in letting him go, and the Beltre non-signing was also the right move. A lot of things that DePo was vilified for at the time turned out in our favor in the long run. Obviously, some things were not so good--the Drew signing, HSC, replacing LoDuca with Brent Mayne, but in retrospect, his record looks pretty good.

However, no one seems willing to give Colleti the same chance. I am not one of the "90%" on this site who think he is a bad GM. Frankly, I don't know what kind of GM he is AT THIS TIME. I like some of his moves--the Ethier trade, signing Furcal, Saito, Sele, and an overlooked good one is hiring Grady Little, who has turned out to be a far better manager than expected. I think Colleti's trades have mostly been wastes of time, as he hasn't lost or acquired anyone of importance. However, this obsessive love of DePO and irrational hatred of Colleti, as fun as it is to read at times, is getting a little too much.

2006-07-28 10:12:52
438.   Sam DC
I so want to believe Floyd Landis. I do I do I do.
2006-07-28 10:13:05
439.   Bluebleeder87

he's been the G.M. for less than a year, I don't get it. I'll hold judgement till the end of next year.

2006-07-28 10:15:14
440.   Bluebleeder87

that's what I was thinking when I was typing that.

2006-07-28 10:16:43
441.   Jon Weisman
437 - It's pretty clear that 90 percent of the people on this site do not think Colletti is bad.

At the same time, I don't think those who liked DePodesta necessarily have an "obsessive love" and those who dislike Colletti necessarily have an "irrational hatred."

Hyperbole brings out more hyperbole - comment 437 I'm only mentioning because it's the latest of many, many examples.

Now, a few commenters truly have extreme feelings about the GMs, it's true. However, taking the people on the extreme and extrapolating them to everyone is a mistake.

Once again, I appeal to people here to tone down the hyperbole wherever they can.

2006-07-28 10:17:53
442.   the OZ
I'm going to start a new blog called "Argue about Ned Colletti and Paul Depodesta Over and Over Again."

If I do, will the relevant parties please go there and leave the rest of us alone?

2006-07-28 10:18:25
443.   Bluebleeder87
what a bummer about Landis.
2006-07-28 10:21:48
444.   LA Native
I agree you have to give Colletti a couple of years to really assess what kind of moves he has made. I do wish he would be a seller at this point and he says he is a buyer. At this point, I'd almost rather he didn't make a deal just for the sake of making a deal, but then again I don't have much confidence in him.
2006-07-28 10:23:31
445.   Jon Weisman
I think it's also worth understanding how many lurkers there are here. The number of commenters is a small percentage of the total readership. And I wouldn't be surprised if some people are afraid to comment because they think their views will be shot down too aggressively. Just another reason to keep things toned down - so it can be an even more welcoming atmosphere. You can still get your points across.
2006-07-28 10:24:31
446.   Jon Weisman
For people interested in Landis, I thought this was a decent column.

2006-07-28 10:26:45
447.   bobbygrich
BTW Doug Melvin just used the term "established major leaguers" in describing Mench and Cordero.

Discourse is healthy but in the end, in my opinion, saying something like let's get rid of the owner or general manager, doesn't really add anything to the discussion.

Interestingly the Brewers decided that they wanted players that could play today, Jim Bowden has said that he wants prospects, will Soriano cross lines this weekend, well I'll be there tonight and Sunday so if he does, I'll see him play for the Dodgers.

But lets see how the next 3 days and 2 1/2 hours plays out, in the end we may be sitting with same roster come Tuesday night in Cincy.

2006-07-28 10:29:48
448.   bobbygrich
445 Jon, isn't there some theory that one letter or call represents so many people, but I agree, in dealing with some of our more hardlined posters, you might not want to dip your toe in the shallow end.

My advice is to run off the diving board and do a cannonball and splash all of us with some fresh thinking. C'mon in, the water is fine.

2006-07-28 10:32:03
449.   glengarry
436 - Baez has pitched within the lower end of expectations, worse than previous years but his previous years were not very good. He totalled saves only because he was given the closer role. Terrible trade.

I'm willing to give Colletti a chance, but I do think it is very much the wrong "approach" to trade prospects for "proven veterans" for the Dodgers right now, not to mention (almost) at any time. Bad moves in year #1 will hurt our team just as much as bad moves in year #3.

RELX, I think you're correct that we need to let DePo go and I think we're being manipulated by Plaschke and Simers, wrong and mean spirited as they are, into obsessing about him.

2006-07-28 10:37:05
450.   mankatododger
I will take a dive here. I agree with many who have said it is too early to judge Colletti. I hope we get to Tuesday with the blue chip guys (Kemp, Ethier, Martin, Bills, etc.) still here but also with a few more AA/AAA top prospects here. I wouldn't mind seeing Izzy, Cruz, or the Ledee types go but I don't think you are going to get much for them. I would listen to offers for Saito but it would have to be someone who could help next year.
Show/Hide Comments 451-500
2006-07-28 10:37:06
451.   Jon Weisman
New post up top.
2006-07-28 10:37:58
452.   Jon Weisman
450 - Yes, the more in the pool, the merrier!
2006-07-28 10:44:16
453.   glengarry
How about we trade Kemp and Martin for Beltre who's proven he can hit in LA? plus the LAT said that Beltre would be playing better if he was still in LA. or for LoDuca? I'm sure LoDuca's "leadership" would propel us to the top.
2006-07-28 10:47:21
454.   underdog
453 Um, you forgot the sideways sarcastic emoticon there, right? --> :-/
2006-07-28 10:48:45
455.   RELX

I put the "90%" in quotes because I knew it didn't reflect the majority of posters. However, I do think that some people go out of their way to bash Colleti unfairly, based on incomplete information and an assumption that the guy before him--Depo--was better. I think much of it comes from the belief that the philosophy of Depo--Moneyball, SABR, call it what you will--was the right way to build a club, and the belief that Colleti is the antithesis of that philosophy.

2006-07-28 10:50:21
456.   Greg S
Saying the Colletti is worse than Malone is truly more malicious than saying he smokes crack. That he smokes crack is potentiall funny. Comparing someone to Malone, that's just plain mean.
2006-07-28 10:51:19
457.   Bluebleeder87

great great point Jon.

2006-07-28 10:53:14
458.   Bluebleeder87
450 I would listen to offers for Saito but it would have to be someone who could help next year.

yeah that's true.

2006-07-28 10:54:14
459.   Steve
Unintentional Comedy Hour from the dumb Sportsline guy:

From Bowden's perspective, not only does he own one of maybe two impact sluggers left on the market, he now can point to Milwaukee's haul of three major-league players -- outfielders Kevin Mench and Laynce Nix and reliever Francisco Cordero -- and a minor league pitcher -- Julian Cordero -- as the going market to those who might balk at paying his price.

456 -- Colletti on crack (well, just about anybody on crack) is fun for the entire family. Colletti on whatever Kevin Malone was on is libelous.

2006-07-28 10:56:05
460.   glengarry
454 what does sarcastic mean?
2006-07-28 10:57:19
461.   King of the Hobos
The Indians have called up Marte, which means they're probably close to dumping Boone. If Ned even considers picking him up, that "worst GM since Malone" might be true.
2006-07-28 10:57:56
462.   dzzrtRatt
I know we're all switching to new post, but I just wanted to add one thing. For those who objected to the "crack pipe" metaphor, what about the nearly ubiquitous use of "drinking the Kool-Ade" to refer to someone who strongly buys into the company line.

How many people who use that expression realize that's an allusion to the Jonestown massacre, where hundreds of people were induced to drink grape Kool-Ade laced with poison?

Since it happened way back in 1978, I bet there are quite a few who think it's about Kool-Ade being a delicious refreshing drink.

Compared with that, the "crack pipe" analogy is way tame.

2006-07-28 11:00:45
463.   Bluebleeder87
Jon you're the S.I guy made a typo

He raised the possibility that that medication may have skewed the test that appears to damn him.

I'm the worst speller in the world, but it felt good catching that.

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