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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Nineteen Years Later, Here's Greg
2006-08-08 18:05
by Jon Weisman

Greg Maddux's first start at Dodger Stadium took place July 24, 1987. He gave up a single to leadoff hitter (!) Dave Anderson and a two-out homer to Mike Marshall in the bottom of the first, then a walk to Anderson and a two-run homer by Ken Landreaux in the fifth to fall behind, 4-3. But in the top of the seventh, pinch-hitter Dave Martinez led off with a single and Andre Dawson homered, and Maddux ended up credited with the 6-4 victory.

Current Dodgers pitching coach Rick Honeycutt started the game for Los Angeles. Tim Leary took the loss.

I used to think of Maddux as someone you had to get to in the first inning if you were going to get to him at all. But I realize I think that way about many elite pitchers, and I don't really know if it ever had any basis in fact.

* * *

Tonight's Game

Comments (398)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2006-08-08 18:14:07
1.   Linkmeister
That's a weird coincidence. I wonder if anyone has mentioned it to either Maddux or Honeycutt.
2006-08-08 18:14:55
2.   Bob Timmermann
I have nothing to go on except my memory, but I believe I've read a study by somebody from Retrosheet that most pitchers give up the most runs in the first inning.

I think it has more to do with the fact that in the first inning the lineup is set up in what is usually an optimal fashion.

Except when teams bat Dave Anderson leadoff.

2006-08-08 18:17:46
3.   Suffering Bruin
2 I've read that the first inning is where the most runs are scored, the second inning is where the least runs are scored and then it averages out.

My last contribution this evening as I am (sob) grounded for the evening. I'd try the argument that the kid is going to learn those words sooner or later but I'm very, very afraid of what the response would be. :)

2006-08-08 18:19:36
4.   Bob Timmermann
Ahh, it was this study.

It's a pdf.

2006-08-08 18:19:53
5.   Linkmeister
3 "That's all very well, dear, but not from you!"
2006-08-08 18:20:12
6.   Eric Enders
I was flipping through an old Bill James 1987 Abstract last night and stumbled on the following comment on the Cubs:

"There is little on hand to rebuild with. The 'kids' who were called up from the Cub farm system in September were Greg Maddux, Chico Walker, Brian Dayett, Dave Martinez, and Rafael Palmeiro. Maddux and Martinez were up last year and were awful... only Palmeiro seems to have any real chance to make an impact."

2006-08-08 18:22:10
7.   Mark Linsey
Re-posting from the end of the previous thread, replying to the discussion on our chances should we make the playoffs:

Do we really believe that there aren't elite teams in the NL? The Mets and Cardinals spring to mind, but I'm willing to listen to arguments that they're really no better (or not much better) than the Dodgers.

I don't know much about how reliable the third-order winning percentage statistic is...I know it's some complicated adjustment to Pythagorean projections, that's about it. But in any case, the folks at Baseball Prospectus think highly enough of it to use it in their playoff odds reports:

Third order wins and losses, as of today, caluclated by BP:
Mets 61.7 48.3
Cards 52.2 58.8 (!!!)
Dodgers 59.2 52.8


2006-08-08 18:25:02
8.   Gagne55
3 Of course the 1st inning produced the most runs. Line-ups are built with better hitters toward the top.
2006-08-08 18:26:59
9.   Telemachos
8 At a guess, pitchers still take a bit to get into their game groove.... hence the increased likelihood of giving up a first inning run or two.
2006-08-08 18:28:30
10.   D4P
Line-ups are built with better hitters toward the top

Like Fur-kel and K-Lo...

2006-08-08 18:28:53
11.   Marty
But, how are you supposed to be clutch in the first?
2006-08-08 18:33:43
12.   Bob Timmermann
The Reds now lead the Cardinals 6-2 and threaten for more. The Dodgers look like they will need to win to hold on to their checkered jerseys.
2006-08-08 18:35:43
13.   Benaiah
My friend is officially a millionaire. Worst possible payout from here on out is 1.2 million dollars.
2006-08-08 18:37:45
14.   Sam DC
That's really pretty great. Taxes may unmillionaire him though.

At RFK, with the Nationals down 2, Soriano singles to lead off the bottom of the eighth and is promptly picked off first. Not clear from gameday if he was trying to steal and got hung up or just was truly picked off. Not pretty in any event. He was CS earlier as well.

Trade the Bum!

2006-08-08 18:39:14
15.   GoBears
7 Yowza! But look at the Cleveland Indians. Talk about unlucky!
2006-08-08 18:41:15
16.   Linkmeister
Andrew, if you're here, I posted a link to the Courant's summary election results at the bottom of the previous thread.
2006-08-08 18:42:16
17.   Andrew Shimmin
16- Thanks.
2006-08-08 18:43:09
18.   underdog
6 That's pretty funny, Eric. And to think, some people want to put Bill James in the hall of fame! Well, I guess anyone can miss 'em, and sounds like Maddux really wasn't revealing his future self to any but the most prophetic in the beginning.
2006-08-08 18:44:08
19.   Bob Timmermann
Hey, I picked Cleveland to win the World Series this year.
2006-08-08 18:44:45
20.   underdog
Uh oh, Baez alert. Atlanta's up 3-0 but Baez is in to preserve Hudson's work, and has walked two with one out.
2006-08-08 18:46:08
21.   KG16
I think the "get to the guy in the first inning" thing is more myth than anything, part of baseball's conventional wisdom. Logically, one would think that a team would have a better chance of scoring as a pitcher tires and loses control or velocity.

I've been lurking for a while, and am just wondering why, in the World According to ESPN that the NL West is the worst division in baseball when it has the most winning teams in the NL?

2006-08-08 18:46:08
22.   underdog
Baez has now walked three straight batters - bases loaded. Wheee!
2006-08-08 18:46:18
23.   Paul Scott
haha. He walked 3 and was replaced.
2006-08-08 18:49:55
24.   Paul Scott
Dellucci missed a GS by about a foot.
2006-08-08 18:50:28
25.   Linkmeister
21 I suspect it's a) time zones and b) none of the NL West teams are setting the world on fire. Another interesting question is how come ESPN has so little coverage of the Tigers, when they have the best record in all of baseball?
2006-08-08 18:52:38
26.   trainwreck
I am amazed they make golf shirts that fit Broxton.
2006-08-08 18:53:21
27.   Marty
So Lieberman is going down? Interesting.
2006-08-08 18:54:23
28.   Bob Timmermann
The Tigers don't show up much because they likely didn't make arrangements ahead of time to show their games.

I imagine that ESPN has a general idea of which games they are going to show before the season started.

Back in the day, the Sunday night game was supposed to show games from all 28 parks (it was back in that day.) They gave that up after a year. I remember seeing a game in Cleveland where the field was overrun by moths.

2006-08-08 18:54:43
29.   Linkmeister
27 Depends on where the remaining 29% of precincts are, but Lamont's been holding a 6000 vote lead since the first results came out.
2006-08-08 18:56:41
30.   Bob Timmermann
Cynthia McKinney isn't faring much better. Actually she's doing far worse.

I know we should keep our political chatter to a minimum, but an incumbent gets knocked out in a primary about as often as a Dodger hits for the cycle it seems.

2006-08-08 18:58:11
31.   Linkmeister
30 We could move politics over to the Griddle. ;)
2006-08-08 19:02:27
32.   confucius
27 He got the kiss of death from W ;)
2006-08-08 19:05:42
33.   Steve
32 -- There may turn out to be some irony in that, since 1) he's going to win the general and 2) this result is going to scare the beejeezus out of all those red states with 2006 Senate races.
2006-08-08 19:06:54
34.   Bob Timmermann
If Joe Lieberman had only tried to go after the pro-Hee Seop Choi vote....
2006-08-08 19:07:21
35.   Linkmeister
33 Which "he?"
2006-08-08 19:08:46
36.   Sam DC
27 Hartford's not in. has precint info.
2006-08-08 19:09:32
37.   Steve
Lieberman is going to win the general.
2006-08-08 19:10:39
38.   Linkmeister
Only if he bolts the Dems and runs as an I.
2006-08-08 19:12:39
39.   Jerry
He'd be an independent in name only.
2006-08-08 19:13:31
40.   Andrew Shimmin
The first politician to embrace a pro-HSC agenda has my vote. I'd be willing to move, if necessary.
2006-08-08 19:13:32
41.   Steve
38 -- That was a predicate to the conclusion, but you're right, he hasn't filed to run. I assume he will. Weicker did and won, and so would Lieberman.
2006-08-08 19:15:11
42.   Bob Timmermann
Do you folks want a thread to discuss this on the Griddle or will the game distract everybody?
2006-08-08 19:15:12
43.   Steve
I was going to make a joke, but I'm not sure that this is my old friend FJT Jerry. Discretion is the better side of valor here lately.
2006-08-08 19:15:48
44.   Bob Timmermann
Toy Cannon's prophecy about Maddox and giving up a hit was true!
2006-08-08 19:16:09
45.   Jerry
43 - Steve, were you going to say that I'm a Dodger fan in name only? :)
2006-08-08 19:16:26
46.   Sam DC
We probably should ramp back the political talk as it drifts from noting the facts to discussing the races.

No need to push the envelope today especially.

2006-08-08 19:16:28
47.   Linkmeister
If he does, he risks throwing the state to the Republicans by splitting the votes between himself and Lamont. I wonder if he'd really want that to happen. He's pretty selfish, but that selfish?
2006-08-08 19:17:14
48.   Linkmeister
Ok, baseball. Off to gameday for me.
2006-08-08 19:17:23
49.   Jon Weisman
Foul ball right over my head, landing three rows back. No carom.
2006-08-08 19:17:28
50.   Bob Timmermann
Mets finish off the Padres, 3-2.

Thankfully, Paul Lo Duca does not have a gambling problem.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2006-08-08 19:17:53
51.   Gen3Blue
I like it . He sure pitches like a Pitcher.
2006-08-08 19:18:03
52.   Jerry
47 - Connecticut Republicans are Republicans in name only. :)
2006-08-08 19:19:32
53.   trainwreck
This must be heaven for Vin to call Maddux as a Dodger.
2006-08-08 19:19:44
54.   Sam DC
49 Oh, now I get it the politics talk. Mom's at the game!
2006-08-08 19:20:42
55.   Bluebleeder87
Furcal! nice
2006-08-08 19:20:54
56.   Linkmeister
Only 80 to go before Furcal ties Henderson for most leadoff homeruns, huh?
2006-08-08 19:21:20
57.   Steve
46 -- forgive this short digression. Linkmeister knows me and I know him.

There is no substantive chance of that happening. Republicans will vote for Lieberman. Remember that when Lieberman ran against Lowell Weicker (I was going to add an adjective before "Lowell Weicker," but DITBPOV), Bill Buckley formed "Buckleys for Lieberman." The practical effect is going to be the GOP candidate siphoning from Lieberman.

No Fur-kels tonight.

2006-08-08 19:21:50
58.   trainwreck
Nice to have a leadoff hitter with some pop.
2006-08-08 19:22:34
59.   Steve
I was going to say that you are a Republican In Name Only, Jerry. I have to go for a little bit but stick around and we'll relive old DT times. We like the manager now. You'll have to get used to it.
2006-08-08 19:22:51
60.   Bob Timmermann
Reds win 10-3. Dodgers must win to hold on to the checkered jersey.
2006-08-08 19:23:39
61.   Underbruin
-Insert Political discussion here-
-End Political discussion here-

Okay, I've contributed. Now, how about that Furcal guy - good thing he's such a great fielder, huh? =P

2006-08-08 19:23:41
62.   Steve
Billy Wagner shuts down the Padres. It's over. OK, now I go.
2006-08-08 19:25:41
63.   Bluebleeder87

so the Padres lost?

2006-08-08 19:26:20
64.   Underbruin
63 - Yes. 3-2, I believe.
2006-08-08 19:26:32
65.   Bob Timmermann
Mets 3, Padres 2.

Paul Lo Duca still does not have a gambling problem.

2006-08-08 19:27:06
66.   DXMachina
63 - Yes, but they'll be running for the division title as independents.
2006-08-08 19:27:25
67.   Berkeley Doug
I like early leads.
2006-08-08 19:28:13
68.   trainwreck
Maddux is hanging them so far tonight.
2006-08-08 19:29:22
69.   trainwreck
Lofton forgot he was Kenny Lofton. Please throw to the cut off man Kenny.
2006-08-08 19:30:16
70.   Underbruin
Well that was quick.
2006-08-08 19:30:43
71.   Greg S
Doesn't look to me liks he's hung anything. Lots of movement. And he is absolutely pounding the strike zone, especially on the first pitch. That is definitely something for Bills to watch and learn.
2006-08-08 19:30:53
72.   trainwreck
That was amazing.
2006-08-08 19:30:58
73.   Paul Scott
Just because someone is running home, doesn't mean the right choice is to try to get him. Lofton had no hope, especially given his arm, and basically turned a single into a double for no possibility of any gain.
2006-08-08 19:32:07
74.   Underbruin
73 - So, should we ask Bob if that should be considered an error?
2006-08-08 19:32:29
75.   trainwreck
A lot of movement but they are going right in the middle of the plate.
2006-08-08 19:33:56
76.   trainwreck
Maddux still has the reflexes of a cat or some other kind of animal with good reflexes.
2006-08-08 19:34:00
77.   Paul Scott
74 Errors are so worthless as a stat that I can't really say I care if it is registered as such, but defensive metrics should definitely take that sort of bad play into account.
2006-08-08 19:34:01
78.   Andrew Shimmin
73- You're neglecting to account for the possibility that Hawpe might have fallen down. It's not a good bet, but, well, there you go.
2006-08-08 19:35:08
79.   Greg S
Hey, is that Larry David directly behind home plate?
2006-08-08 19:35:44
80.   Paul Scott
78 if he falls down, the cut-off man can get him in a rundown.
2006-08-08 19:35:48
81.   Gen3Blue
I wish we got a bit more on this Bun Yun Kim. I remember him as dangerous when he gets set up.
2006-08-08 19:36:46
82.   Andrew Shimmin
80- Hawpe falls down and the cutoff man gets eaten by a shark. . .
2006-08-08 19:36:59
83.   Linkmeister
Next time we gripe about the Toaster being slow, think about this. Kos's servers are getting (per his stats) 2,000 hits per minute.
2006-08-08 19:39:20
84.   trainwreck
That man looks older than Larry David.
2006-08-08 19:39:22
85.   Bob Timmermann
I could get 2000 hits a minute on the Griddle if I did nothing but post about Harold Reynolds.
2006-08-08 19:40:08
86.   Paul Scott
82 ok, you got me there. Maybe after the game they'll ask Kenny if fear of shark attack played into his decision.
2006-08-08 19:40:48
87.   Andrew Shimmin
Does Kos run the ring of sports blogs that regfairfield is a part of, now?
2006-08-08 19:41:53
88.   Gen3Blue
Martin looks like one of our best baserunners to me. This surprised me a bit.
2006-08-08 19:42:01
89.   Eric Stephen
Rockies announcer George Frazier said of Ethier, "I wonder what category he didn't satisfy in Billy Beane's magical equations." Wow.
2006-08-08 19:42:03
90.   Bob Timmermann
Larry David can't get good tickets to Dodger games. Didn't you watch the last season of "Curb Your Enthusiasm"?
2006-08-08 19:42:51
91.   Paul Scott
Speaking of Andrew's blog ring, he linked to a good article on the Indians blog in that ring today discussing the elements of a trade.

2006-08-08 19:45:23
92.   Linkmeister
87 I don't know about regfairfield, but yeah, Kos runs a ring of sports blogs., maybe? I'm not sure.
2006-08-08 19:47:15
93.   D4P
2006-08-08 19:47:26
94.   Bob Timmermann
Greg Maddux is 1 for 1 in stolen bases.

If he steals here, we've got a story!

2006-08-08 19:48:25
95.   Linkmeister
I take it back.
2006-08-08 19:48:26
96.   Gen3Blue
Dam. I'm beginning to love Furcl as a lead-off, but iI don't trust him yet w/guys on base.
2006-08-08 19:48:31
97.   Berkeley Doug
For those of us not watching on TV - How does Betemit not score from second with two outs???
2006-08-08 19:49:32
98.   Bob Timmermann
I'm guessing that with Maddux up, Hawpe was playing pretty shallow.
2006-08-08 19:49:38
99.   trainwreck
That is the definition of a hater.
2006-08-08 19:49:47
100.   mintxcore
holy crap! did vin just say "the demonbacks"??
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2006-08-08 19:49:58
101.   ScoobyGoo
Is there a way to compare a hitter's first inning stats (or first AB) compared to the rest of his AB's to see if it has to deal with the pitcher "loosening up" or just the good hitters hitting at the top of the order
2006-08-08 19:50:17
102.   Paul Scott
Haupe is not Kenny. It was a sharply hit and short single. If Betemit had been sent, the ball would have been waiting for him when he arrived at the plate.
2006-08-08 19:50:19
103.   Mark Linsey
Hawpe has a good arm and got to the ball quickly.
2006-08-08 19:50:25
104.   Bob Timmermann
Besides striking out, the bases-loaded triple may have been unlikely since Maddux was on first and I don't know where Furcal could have hit something to score him from first.
2006-08-08 19:50:37
105.   Jerry
97 - The ball was one-hopped right to Hawpe, who was playing shallow. Betemit wouldn't have made it.
2006-08-08 19:51:58
106.   Gen3Blue
Lately are staion to station has really troubled me, but it could well be the last several situations called for it because I just couldn't see enough.
But we also are defficient in guys who can score from second.
2006-08-08 19:52:10
107.   trainwreck
Yes he did.
2006-08-08 19:52:16
108.   gpellamjr
Bob, watch what you say. We're only halfway through the season 5 DVD.
2006-08-08 19:53:45
109.   Bob Timmermann

I didn't spoil anything. There's a whole episode based around getting to a Dodger game.

The details of which I cannot describe here.

There have been 5 seasons?

2006-08-08 19:54:45
110.   gpellamjr
100 I'm thinking of a certain slip that certain southern politicians and law enforcement have made publicly when referring to Martin Luther King Jr.
2006-08-08 19:55:08
111.   Jerry
I don't think it's in Season 5, but the "Carpool Lane" episode involving a Dodger game is a classic.
2006-08-08 19:55:14
112.   Steve
I wonder how come Jesus can't help the Rockies win more than 70 games a year.
2006-08-08 19:55:34
113.   Paul Scott
There have been 5. Season 5 came out last week (on DVD). The episode to which you are refering, however - where he takes a hooker to teh Dodger game so that he can use the carpool lane - was season 4.
2006-08-08 19:55:37
114.   Gen3Blue
Furcals D has looked good lately, when it didn't, it was mostly the throws.
2006-08-08 19:57:16
115.   Sam DC
Lamont won Hartford by 3%; it looks over.
2006-08-08 19:57:34
116.   Steve
Sorta OT: The fantasy baseball group won their lawsuit against MLB Media.
2006-08-08 19:57:43
117.   D4P
And why doesn't Jesus let Jeff Kent win a World Series Ring...?
2006-08-08 19:57:47
118.   gpellamjr
113 You're right! I totally forgot about that one. I don't know what I was thinking.
2006-08-08 19:58:57
119.   Paul Scott
Lofton continues to suck.
2006-08-08 19:58:59
120.   trainwreck
Same episode.
2006-08-08 19:59:00
121.   Andrew Shimmin
Kenny speed just doesn't work in reverse.
2006-08-08 19:59:15
122.   Greg S
112 Is he supposely a fan? I haven't read the Bible cover to cover so I wouldn't know.

And that was not Kenn's fault so don't even start.

2006-08-08 19:59:43
123.   trainwreck
nm already answered haha
2006-08-08 20:00:11
124.   TheRedMenace
112 - Presumably because, contrary to nonsense you read in the funny pap... er USA Today, the Rockies don't generally apply for his assistance. Now, were they to fill out the proper forms, they could probably win at least 75.
2006-08-08 20:00:13
125.   Steve
I'm not really convinced that Lofton was out, but he deserved to be out, given that the play was...right in front of him.

117 - Don't step on the punchline! Geez...

2006-08-08 20:00:17
126.   Paul Scott
Although on the replay, he looks pretty clearly safe, since he makes it back to the bag before Helton actually controls the ball.
2006-08-08 20:00:41
127.   King of the Hobos
How many times has Lofton been called out on the bases lately? Seems to be happening every game.
2006-08-08 20:00:45
128.   Gen3Blue
Homer Gunn Your out, meat
Homer Simpson Go take a seat. thats dirty ball!
Oh how I wish for Vin.
2006-08-08 20:01:26
129.   Paul Scott
125 Exactly.
2006-08-08 20:02:20
130.   TheRedMenace
I'm sticking with the recently Wesiman-patented "leave out a word if you need to" writing style. Where should I send the royalty checks?
2006-08-08 20:02:50
131.   Steve
It was a good line, and I'm standing by it.
2006-08-08 20:03:40
132.   Gen3Blue
I'd rather be Earnest T. Bass than one of these rocky announcers. At least he had a sly cleverness for a Goober.
2006-08-08 20:03:51
133.   Steve
Joe Schwarz is also losing in Michigan.
2006-08-08 20:04:30
134.   TheRedMenace
Preview is my friend.
Preview is my friend.
Preview is my friend.
2006-08-08 20:05:51
135.   Marty
I thought baseball Jesus was on our team. He's just not any good. We need baseball Vishnu.
2006-08-08 20:06:40
136.   gpellamjr
Two things that I'm afraid I'm only seeing through a fan's eyes, let me know if I'm insane: 1) it seems the Dodgers have been the victims of more great defensive plays than are likely to happen, and 2) it seems that the Dodgers have been victims of many inconsistent strike zones. Am I crazy?
2006-08-08 20:08:23
137.   Gen3Blue
I had to leave the room, how did that guy get to third?
2006-08-08 20:09:28
138.   Gen3Blue
Man --Gameday can be worthless at times
2006-08-08 20:12:17
139.   gpellamjr
138 And devastating to personal relationships.
2006-08-08 20:19:14
140.   Gen3Blue
I saw Barnes get throwm out on DTV despite the fact I was wrestling Game day for the 4th inning with no success.
I'm sorry to say Maddox has pitched a sloppier game than Kim, though they are both being pretty good.
These annoncers--imbeciles.
2006-08-08 20:20:51
141.   Greg S
It used to be more of the case when he wore glasses, but every time I look at Maddux, I think of the little "chicken hawk" that used to follow around Forhorn Leghorn. Do any of those of you who are over 30 know what I mean?
2006-08-08 20:22:35
142.   gpellamjr
141 I'm 24 and I know exactly.
2006-08-08 20:22:59
143.   Greg S
140. There has been nothing about his start that I would call "sloppy". He's just throwing tons of strikes and therefore balls are getting hit. Several of the hits have been ground balls. He looks as good as I could hope for so far.
2006-08-08 20:31:46
144.   gpellamjr
Loney's OPS now up to .803.
2006-08-08 20:32:35
145.   gpellamjr
.805, sorry.
2006-08-08 20:34:37
146.   JoeyP
That was a strange play, even from my seat in Gameday Stadium.
2006-08-08 20:35:49
147.   Stuck in NYC but still Bleeding Blue
BK's been effectively wild through 5. Rookie running mistake by loney right there.
2006-08-08 20:36:53
148.   Steve
Yeah, rookies around third base haven't had great luck in this series.
2006-08-08 20:38:22
149.   Stuck in NYC but still Bleeding Blue
maddux'll go nine with his pitch count - ageless wonder
2006-08-08 20:39:08
150.   Greg S
For those of you who are watching Gameday only (since that was me last week) that probably was not Loney's fault. With two outs, he goes from 2nd with the crack of the bat. But 3rd baseman bobbles the ball and has no play at first... but he now DOES have a play on Loney who''s caught between 2nd and 3rd. Unfortunate but he's doing what he should be doing.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2006-08-08 20:40:59
151.   Andrew Shimmin
150- He stopped running and just stood there, watching the third baseman. If he'd tried to go back he might have made it. If he'd kept going forward, he might have made it. But just standing there didn't work out.
2006-08-08 20:42:30
152.   Paul Scott
150 mostly true. He went on the hit - that was right. He, however, froze in his steps and waited to be put in a rundown. The percentage there was to run back to second base. Still, I don't fault Loney for merely doing what many/most players would do even if there is a better option.
2006-08-08 20:42:36
153.   Steve
It was one of those deals like Lofton's where you just kinda go, eh, that sort of sucked.
2006-08-08 20:42:52
154.   Gagne55
Why is it that Kim always pwns the Dodgers when he faces them. Kin sucks, yet he always pwns the Dodgers. What gives?

And he's looked awfule today. His pitches have been everywhere yet the Dodgers just are getting pwn3d.

2006-08-08 20:43:28
155.   Gen3Blue
While most everyone admits there is no way yet to measure defense effectively, what is the feeling about "clutchness". I feel that there is no doubt that clutchness exists, but there is question that it ever attaches itself to a player or a team in any consistant way that can be measured. What is the philosophy and state of the art.
2006-08-08 20:43:34
156.   JoeyP
Maddux's getting the ground balls tonite.
2006-08-08 20:43:49
157.   Greg S
150 In my opinon, he was... ummm.. what's a word I can use... outta luck.
2006-08-08 20:44:12
158.   Stuck in NYC but still Bleeding Blue
theyve hit the ball hard all night, just right at the defense. a couple of furcal backwards k's with RISP hasnt helped either
2006-08-08 20:44:28
159.   D4P
Is there an age limit on using "words" like "pwns"?
2006-08-08 20:44:30
160.   Gen3Blue
Both KIms seem to give the D's trouble!
2006-08-08 20:44:31
161.   Gagne55
hopefully they can get into the pen
2006-08-08 20:45:07
162.   JoeyP
Sullivan must have horrible range, or he was playing deep.
2006-08-08 20:45:42
163.   D4P
Monday just said Maddux is done for the evening
2006-08-08 20:46:47
164.   Gagne55
158 Yeah, especially the one with the bases loaded when he got a 1-2, I guess it was a curveball but it didn't really curve, right down the center of the plate and took it. The fatest pitch he's gotten this year and it's called strike 3. ugg
2006-08-08 20:47:10
165.   Gen3Blue
Wasn't pwns a typo of owns. I answered believing so!
2006-08-08 20:48:07
166.   Gagne55
160 Good thing they aren't in the Korean League. ;)
2006-08-08 20:48:46
167.   D4P
I hate the KWFB commercial that starts out "Let's go RAY! This guy's on my fantasy team..."

It's so devious. I hate the "Let's go RAY" part, but it's at the very beginning of the commercial so I can never avoid hearing it. I have no idea what the rest of the commercial is like because I always mute it immediately upon hearing "Let's go RAY! This guy's on my fantasy team..."

2006-08-08 20:49:24
168.   Gagne55
165 No, the p was intentional. It's an internet phrase originateing in 1337.
2006-08-08 20:49:46
169.   Greg S
Is the Rockies bullpen as "exciting" this year as it was last year?
2006-08-08 20:49:53
170.   JoeyP
They are pulling Maddux awful early. He only threw 81 pitches.
2006-08-08 20:51:18
171.   mikethinksblue
167 I got XM to try to escape that commercial, and all the others on ESPN 710. But, alas, they come over on the satellite as well.
2006-08-08 20:51:20
172.   Gagne55
Kim's made 89 pitches. Looks like he'll go one more inning, then. Fuentes pitches the ninth, meaning the Dodgers only have one chance left to score- the 8th.
2006-08-08 20:53:33
173.   JoeyP
This is what Girardi did in Florida. He let Olsen hit in the bottom of the 6th, and then the guy couldnt make it out of the 7th.

Its just such a risky move to let the pitcher bat, if you're only going to pitch him at most 1 more inning. Especially a guy with that high of pitch count. Kim's probably only good for 95 pitches at most.

I bet it backfires on Hurdle.

2006-08-08 20:53:53
174.   Steve
169 -- No humidor on the road and Clint warms six of them up a night. Yep.
2006-08-08 20:54:10
175.   gpellamjr
172 I believe the Dodgers have already beat up on Fuentes once this year. They have two chances left.
2006-08-08 20:54:52
176.   Sam DC
Not sure if Tendon-gate, the Gary Majewski affair, has broken through or if it's a local story, but the Reds have -- to some extent -- accused the Nationals have lying about Majewski's medical condition before the trade. (Majewski has just gone on the DL.)

Capitol Punishment has all the details (there are two posts and more articles linked in the comments if you're in a gluttonous mood.)

2006-08-08 20:55:24
177.   gpellamjr
175 Whoops, three.
2006-08-08 20:56:18
178.   Greg S
What's up with Vin's obsession with the fact that there are only 50/49 games left. That's darn near 1/3 of the season. I hope he's not going to do this countdown clock for the rest of the year.
2006-08-08 20:56:33
179.   Gagne55
173 Dodgers don't know how to hit Kim. It's that simple.
2006-08-08 20:57:04
180.   JoeyP
Ethier's went the entire game and hasnt had to field yet. No hits or outs have come his way.
2006-08-08 20:58:24
181.   Paul Scott
179 Luckily, Braves do.
2006-08-08 20:58:40
182.   mikethinksblue
Looks like it came back to bite Hurdle!
2006-08-08 20:58:44
183.   Stuck in NYC but still Bleeding Blue
nice inning of work by tomko, dodgers need all the bullpen help they can get
2006-08-08 20:58:50
184.   JoeyP
That was predictable.
Jim Tracy 101 never works.
2006-08-08 20:59:46
185.   Marty
I'm liking Vegemite. Is he under contract next year too? I've not been paying attention.
2006-08-08 21:00:18
186.   Johnny Nucleo
Good call JoeyP.
2006-08-08 21:00:32
187.   Stuck in NYC but still Bleeding Blue
i just had a flashback to brosius in the 01 world series
2006-08-08 21:01:04
188.   Steve
I ask again. Why do Colorado fans allow Clint Hurdle to live?
2006-08-08 21:01:29
189.   gpellamjr
Ethier looks different to me today. Has he shaved something or grown something?
2006-08-08 21:02:02
190.   Andrew Shimmin
176- I hadn't heard. That's wonderful. Can't have just been a bad break coupled with a stupid trade, Krivsky must have been cheated. I like it very much.

185- First year of arbitration. If he doesn't come back, there won't be enough bayoneted torches on earth for the parade to Colletti's office.

2006-08-08 21:02:50
191.   Greg S
That gamble cetainly did not pay. Not at all.
2006-08-08 21:03:25
192.   Steve
190 -- That's a big fat karma sandwich with extra irony fries and a large petard-flavored shake.
2006-08-08 21:03:27
193.   Bob Timmermann

Chuck Hinton played 17 innings in left field in one game without a chance.

There were three singles to left field however.

2006-08-08 21:04:02
194.   Gen3Blue
Good, bat Kim. That is Dodger like.
Was up washing dishes when the "silence of the announcers, tipped me to something wrong. Tie.
Homer Gunn-Here comes Loney the
#eight hitter.
Homer Simpson--He'll probably bunt with
the pitcher up next.
Homer Gunn Here come the manager.
Homer simpson---Loney didn't give anything away!
2006-08-08 21:04:26
195.   Gen3Blue
Good, bat Kim. That is Dodger like.
Was up washing dishes when the "silence of the announcers, tipped me to something wrong. Tie.
Homer Gunn-Here comes Loney the
#eight hitter.
Homer Simpson--He'll probably bunt with
the pitcher up next.
Homer Gunn Here come the manager.
Homer simpson---Loney didn't give anything away!
2006-08-08 21:04:27
196.   mikethinksblue
Is Loney really bunting?
2006-08-08 21:04:32
197.   Gen3Blue
Good, bat Kim. That is Dodger like.
Was up washing dishes when the "silence of the announcers, tipped me to something wrong. Tie.
Homer Gunn-Here comes Loney the
#eight hitter.
Homer Simpson--He'll probably bunt with
the pitcher up next.
Homer Gunn Here come the manager.
Homer simpson---Loney didn't give anything away!
2006-08-08 21:05:07
198.   JoeyP
Dont bunt Loney.
Ignore Grits and swing.
2006-08-08 21:06:18
199.   Steve
Grittle, that's a $337,000 baseball player, and you want him to bunt? Come on!
2006-08-08 21:06:20
200.   Gen3Blue
Martin is a good base-runner.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2006-08-08 21:07:06
201.   D4P
Where's our lefty pinch-hitter? Oh right, Ledee was given away for nothing.
2006-08-08 21:07:57
202.   JoeyP
Saenz actually is hitting righties better than Ledee this year.
2006-08-08 21:08:13
203.   mikethinksblue

I don't really get the waiver process. Do we really get nothing for Ledee, or do the Mets have to trade something for him?

2006-08-08 21:08:38
204.   Paul Scott
Given away for 500K, not quite nothing. Our lefthanded pinch-hitter was playing first tonight.
2006-08-08 21:09:54
205.   mikethinksblue
500k, another ivory back-scratcher for McCourt.
2006-08-08 21:11:16
206.   Bob Timmermann
I think D4P is missing Ricky Ledee in a Dick Vermeil sort of way.
2006-08-08 21:11:33
207.   Andrew Shimmin
Hey bat boy, wanna think about maybe getting the man a new bat, instead of making him waddle over to the dugout?
2006-08-08 21:12:27
208.   D4P
I think the bat boy's still sour over that Brad Penny milk incident...
2006-08-08 21:12:59
209.   Greg S
We don't need no stinkin' lefties
2006-08-08 21:13:14
210.   Eric Stephen
Martin looked like he hurt himself rounding 3rd base scoring the go-ahead run.
2006-08-08 21:13:18
211.   Paul Scott
205 No. The Dodgers do not have an unlimtted budget for payroll. Economics play a very large role in determining who we can have on the team.
2006-08-08 21:13:21
212.   JoeyP
Saenz is so clutch.
2006-08-08 21:13:47
213.   bluetahoe
It's been 12 minutes and not one person seems to have gotten excited about Betemit's HR to tie the allow me.


2006-08-08 21:15:10
214.   D4P
I guess those game-tying HRs just aren't as exciting on Gameday
2006-08-08 21:15:24
215.   Paul Scott
210 That would suck, but luckily we are very deep at catcher - having two young, excellent catchers. It's a good thing Colletti didn't throw away Navaro on some run of the mill pitcher or something equally worthless.
2006-08-08 21:15:28
216.   mikethinksblue

I know, I just felt like throwing in a random Simpsons reference.

2006-08-08 21:15:54
217.   Andrew Shimmin
211- Plus the twenty-four hour a day rapid response shark patrol ain't free.
2006-08-08 21:15:59
218.   bluetahoe
If JBrox and Saito can hold this puppy down ,our good luck charm, Brett Tomko, looks to gain his 1st victory in relief.
2006-08-08 21:16:21
219.   Steve
Never a doubt. And Ray King is a joke.
2006-08-08 21:16:22
220.   Uncle Miltie
Just got home. Didn't see Wilber II's HR, but I did see Grits trying to make Loney bunt. That might have been his worst move of the year. Martin is a very good baserunner.

Nice pinch hit by Old Maid too. I never expect him to do anything against RHP.

2006-08-08 21:16:53
221.   JoeyP
Furcal is Mr. 3TO this game.
2006-08-08 21:18:11
222.   Paul Scott
217 23-hours a day, otherwise Kenny wouldn't have made that throw. Perhaps we can get around the clock protection once the Met's check clears.
2006-08-08 21:18:26
223.   Uncle Miltie
Repko got an awful jump
2006-08-08 21:18:29
224.   Greg S
215 Are you really upset over losing Navarro? You think we should have held on to him? I know you don't like what we got for him but keeping him wasn't going to happen and shouldn't have.
2006-08-08 21:18:37
225.   Steve
181, 182, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188, etc., etc., etc.
2006-08-08 21:19:00
226.   bluetahoe
That stunk. From 3-0 to a K with a caught stealing.

Let's getter done JBrox.

2006-08-08 21:19:54
227.   Gen3Blue
Man, Repko and Furcal are just not frightening anyone with speed.
2006-08-08 21:20:10
228.   Paul Scott
224 I am not upset over losing anyone - no matter who it is. It's always about the return, and our return on Navarro sucked.
2006-08-08 21:21:11
229.   bluetahoe
From 'Fight Club"

He has a name.
His name is Wilson Betemit.
HIs name is Wilson Betemit.
HIs name is Wilson Betemit.
HIs name is Wilson Betemit.
HIs name is Wilson Betemit.


2006-08-08 21:23:08
230.   Underbruin
This... Brox-ton fellow seems like he can pitch a bit.
2006-08-08 21:29:07
231.   Steve
Silence is golden.
2006-08-08 21:29:19
232.   bluetahoe
Maybe we should have gone with Carrara in the 8th. Oh well.
2006-08-08 21:29:23
233.   Underbruin
2006-08-08 21:29:49
234.   Paul Scott
IBB I would hope.
2006-08-08 21:30:04
235.   Underbruin
232 - WHY would you go with Carrara over Broxton? It's a one-run game, you don't want your weaker pitchers on the mound instead of your stronger pitchers...
2006-08-08 21:30:37
236.   Underbruin
234 - Guess not.
2006-08-08 21:30:50
237.   mikethinksblue
c'mon Brox get 'em out.
2006-08-08 21:31:05
238.   Greg S
A lot of regulars not here tonight. I wonder how many are at the game. Isn't Jon there?
I'll be there tomorrow so come by and say "hi".
2006-08-08 21:33:02
239.   Paul Scott
236 It's almost never the right call. x23, 2 outs and a large OBP difference, however, and it becomes the right call. Oh well, hopefully it works out.
2006-08-08 21:33:32
240.   Paul Scott
:) It worked out.
2006-08-08 21:33:33
241.   bluetahoe
2006-08-08 21:33:34
242.   Underbruin
Boom. Nice.
2006-08-08 21:33:51
243.   Uncle Miltie
Da Bull!

He was really getting squeezed that inning.

2006-08-08 21:34:31
244.   bluetahoe
235 I was being a silly willy.
2006-08-08 21:34:43
245.   Steve
Why would you walk Yorvit Torrealba?
2006-08-08 21:34:45
246.   JoeyP
If the Dodgers hold on, that will make them 9-2 vs the Rockies this year.
2006-08-08 21:36:38
247.   Greg S
I honestly can not believe that Jose Mesa is still pitching in the Major Leagues. My God, he's been around forever.
2006-08-08 21:36:42
248.   Underbruin
Irrational fear of names that start with Y-o-r-v?
2006-08-08 21:37:17
249.   Izzy
Shoot. We got us a baby Gagne:)
2006-08-08 21:37:26
250.   bluetahoe
The Dodgers own the Rox.

The Rox are one of the better teams in the NL though. Take away their games against our beloved boys in blue and they are 1 of a few teams playing over .500 ball.

Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2006-08-08 21:37:28
251.   Paul Scott
245 Because Clint Barmes is 35 points lower OBP and the man on first doesn't matter (much) and slighty improves the odds of getting an out on a BIP.
2006-08-08 21:37:48
252.   regfairfield
245 Because Yorvit is tight.
2006-08-08 21:37:53
253.   Greg S
How many people in uniform tonight were in the 1995 World Series?
2006-08-08 21:38:28
254.   Xeifrank
No shave = Dodgers win streak continues?
vr, Xei
2006-08-08 21:38:36
255.   bluetahoe
Big Julio with a leadoff walk. I say we make this a NON-save situation for my boy Saito.
2006-08-08 21:38:51
256.   Steve
I do not agree that one should walk Yorvit Torrealba. One should strike Yorvit Torrealba the hell out.
2006-08-08 21:38:51
257.   JoeyP
The Rockies are horrible.
2006-08-08 21:39:01
258.   bigcpa
I definitely didn't foresee Broxton vs. Torrealba as my first Maalox moment of 2006.
2006-08-08 21:40:37
259.   Bluebleeder87

I don't wanna see any Maalox moment ever.

2006-08-08 21:41:09
260.   mikethinksblue
wait, did the ball really go into the stands? i've never seen that at DS
2006-08-08 21:41:22
261.   Bluebleeder87
well that pitch was weird
2006-08-08 21:41:55
262.   bluetahoe
A 50 footer bounces all the way over the screen. The ump makes Julio go back to 3rd. DARNIT.

This is all you Jeff. Maybe not. Kent with the IBB. Time for big boy Ethier to come through.

2006-08-08 21:42:37
263.   Bluebleeder87
that pitch had a 2nd life when it hit Torrealba's shoulder.
2006-08-08 21:43:02
264.   bluetahoe
257 - I wouldn't say that. They have a much better team than we did last year.
2006-08-08 21:44:27
265.   bluetahoe




2006-08-08 21:44:32
266.   Greg S
Seemed like Ethier's getting a hit was inevitable
2006-08-08 21:45:09
267.   Underbruin
265 - Your ideas intrigue me good sir. I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
2006-08-08 21:45:11
268.   D4P
The Rockies are horrible.
2006-08-08 21:45:30
269.   mikethinksblue
I was wondering earlier today if Ethier would turn into Jason Werth. A guy with a nice rookie season, but no real future to speak of. Somehow, I don't think that's the case.
2006-08-08 21:45:40
270.   regfairfield
264 This is the same team that had less wins when than the Dodgers, despite most of the Dodgers roster being hurt, right?

If you're going to say something that outrageous, please back it up so there's some way to respond to it outside of a personal attack.

2006-08-08 21:46:46
271.   JoeyP
Dont respond to Tahoe's flame bait.
Its useless.

I'm actually surprised he still posts.

2006-08-08 21:46:50
272.   Underbruin
270 - I think he's saying the Rox of this season are better than the Dodgers of last season.

What exactly that MEANS, I'm not sure? They're better than a really, REALLY terrible team?

2006-08-08 21:46:54
273.   Bob Timmermann
I believe bluetahoe meant that this year's Rockies are better than last year's Dodgers.
2006-08-08 21:47:34
274.   Underbruin
Well that was a stupid waste.
2006-08-08 21:47:39
275.   Uncle Miltie
Oh Grits....
2006-08-08 21:49:04
276.   JoeyP
Things must be going well to be winning in a game in which the other team turns 5 DP's.
2006-08-08 21:49:15
277.   bluetahoe
Phooey. Another strike 'em out, throw 'em out.

It's your turn Takashi. Getter done.

2006-08-08 21:49:43
278.   bluetahoe
273 - You are correct sir.
2006-08-08 21:49:55
279.   Steve
That was pretty JT.
2006-08-08 21:50:37
280.   Paul Scott
256 I'll merely note that your comment comes after he K'ed, mine came before he got to the plate. I certainly agree that with 100% chance of a K, I would also pitch to Torealba.

Before the first pitch is made, however, the difference in WinEx between x23, 2 outs and 123, 2 out compared to a 35 point difference in OBP makes me think the IBB is the better move. That could be wrong, as I have made no attempt to run the numbers.

2006-08-08 21:51:23
281.   Greg S
Fine, I'll answer my own question... there are at least 4 people in uniform tonight who played in the '95 World Series. I find that to be amazing given it was 11 years ago and neither team involved in that series is in this game.
But I'll just be amazed my myeself.
2006-08-08 21:51:56
282.   JoeyP
The Dodgers after tonite still have 14 games left with the Cubs, Rockies, and Pirates.
2006-08-08 21:52:21
283.   Brent is a Dodger Fan
GameChannel always feels like molasses to me. The pitches seem to come quickly, and then there's a big delay, and some action happens... Makes me nervous!
2006-08-08 21:52:30
284.   Vaudeville Villain
Seriously...Did they play, "Whoop, There It Is!" in that last inning? I think we can at least update our hip-hop anthems.
2006-08-08 21:54:10
285.   Bluebleeder87
Saito is just a treat to watch
2006-08-08 21:54:23
286.   mikethinksblue

I think Dodger Stadium is the last place on earth they still play Whoop there it is on a regular basis

2006-08-08 21:54:36
287.   Brent is a Dodger Fan
I like how Saito seems to get ahead in the count...
2006-08-08 21:55:46
288.   D4P
Is the bullpen really this good, or have they just gotten "lucky" over the past few weeks...?
2006-08-08 21:56:28
289.   Brent is a Dodger Fan
In my softball league, if you foul off that many pitches, it's a strikeout.
2006-08-08 21:56:34
290.   xaphor
[284] Are you not down with OPP?
2006-08-08 21:56:37
291.   Paul Scott
"This one goes to 11."
2006-08-08 21:56:38
292.   bluetahoe

Another great outing for Maddox.

Our good luck, Bretty, picks up his 1st win in relief.

Betemit with a huge game tying HR to spark the club.

Saenz with another huge RBI off the bench. He is sooo awesome.

Another shutout inning for JBrox.

And Ned's shiniest golden nugget with yet another save.

11 in a row BAY-BEEEEEE

I really shouldn't get so excited. Might as well enjoy it while it lasts though. It's been a gas.

2006-08-08 21:56:58
293.   Brent is a Dodger Fan
Woo hoo!
2006-08-08 21:57:03
294.   Steve
280 -- I wasn't making a sabermetric point or pointing out the obvious. I was saying that one "should" strike Yorvit Torrealba the hell out. Which is obviously true, because Yorvit Torrealba sucks. So, yes, give me a break.
2006-08-08 21:57:10
295.   Bluebleeder87
.5 games away, it feels good!!!
2006-08-08 21:57:37
296.   Greg S
291 You were just waiting with your finger on the "submit" button for that one weren't you!
2006-08-08 21:57:39
297.   JoeyP
During the 1-13 streak, the bullpen wasnt noticed bc the team was behind all the time.
The last 11 games have been that close, so again not really noticed.

A good bullpen is like a good offensive line. You only notice them when they mess up.

2006-08-08 21:58:04
298.   Bluebleeder87
Are you not down with OPP?


2006-08-08 21:58:37
299.   Greg Brock
11 in a row. This is insane.
2006-08-08 21:59:15
300.   Paul Scott
294 Yes, but Barmes sucks quite a bit harder. ;) But, sure, one should certainly strike Yorvit the hell out. :)
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2006-08-08 21:59:17
301.   bluetahoe
296 - LOL...
2006-08-08 21:59:29
302.   D4P
The "win" statistic for pitchers is ridiculous. Tomko, Broxton, and Saito each pitched 1 scoreless inning with 2 Ks. But since the Dodgers just happened to take the lead in the half-inning immediately after Tomko pitched, he gets the "win."

Where is the connection between his pitching and the innings in which the Dodgers happened to score runs...?

2006-08-08 22:00:14
303.   bluetahoe
Cheer up fellows. 11 in a row. I think that's the longest Dodger win streak in my lifetime.
2006-08-08 22:01:04
304.   Bob Timmermann

Your desire to start quixotic battles against scoring rules is strong, D4P. I can sense the Quixotic Force in you.

2006-08-08 22:01:14
305.   Steve
Did we win on Gameday too?
2006-08-08 22:01:24
306.   Greg S
I was just thinking that there's really nothing to complain about right now with an 11 game winning streak. But I guess the "win" rule will do.
2006-08-08 22:01:33
307.   Paul Scott
296 Maybe. ;)
2006-08-08 22:02:13
308.   Andrew Shimmin
303- Check your email, please.
2006-08-08 22:02:25
309.   bluetahoe
Boy oh boy. I sleep through innings 3-6.5 only to wake up literally seconds before Wilson's bomb. How am I supposed to get back to sleep after another exciting win?
2006-08-08 22:03:05
310.   Bob Timmermann
Some of us can remember a 12-game winning streak in 1976.

Actually, I don't remember that, but the Dodgers had one that year.

2006-08-08 22:03:25
311.   mikethinksblue

I think the Wins stat is there for HoF and Cy Young purposes only.

It's not like Tomko is going to accumulate 300 wins by pitching one inning every few games over a 20 year career.

Someone has to get the win, how else are you going to decide it when both pitchers leave the game relatively early?

2006-08-08 22:03:34
312.   Vaudeville Villain

Yes. Considering the good feelings the Dodgers are conjuring, I am totally down with OPP. Err...Not really. Maybe so. Let me think about it.

If I wasn't so tired of hearing "California Love", I'd nominate that.

2006-08-08 22:03:35
313.   Paul Scott
302 You have to seperate baseball statistics from baseball accounting (w/l, saves, holds and errors).
2006-08-08 22:03:47
314.   JoeyP
I think the streak will reach 13 games before the Giants take 2/3 this weekend.

Lowry/Schmidt/Cain will be tough matchups.

2006-08-08 22:04:44
315.   Steve
Somebody's got to get the win. Maybe Tomko will be a Type A when we lose him after 2007.
2006-08-08 22:05:25
316.   Bob Timmermann
The A's won their game with the final play being a 2 UDP.
2006-08-08 22:05:27
317.   Paul Scott
O.J. is on the loose again.
2006-08-08 22:05:37
318.   joekings
I like the A's but that was a bad call to end the game on. Hitter's interference double play....good grief.
2006-08-08 22:06:31
319.   Uncle Miltie
New Snakes on a plane clip! This movie is going to be incredible. Academy Award worthy?

2006-08-08 22:06:43
320.   Berkeley Doug
Dodgers Win! Dodgers Win!

Three stars for the game:

1. Maddux - not quite an "interesting" game, but I'll take 2 ER in 6 IP
2. Betemit - 3 for 4 with the game tying HR
3. Saitoxton - Rivera & Wetteland :: Broxton & Saito?

2006-08-08 22:08:37
321.   Greg S
Their pitcher tomorrow, Jeff Francis, is a tough customer. I've had the chance to see him pitch quite a bit and he can be tough. He's very young and not as good as he will certianly be some day, but he's going to be as much as a test as we've had recently.
2006-08-08 22:09:16
322.   D4P
I think the Wins stat is there for HoF and Cy Young purposes only.

Someone has to get the win

1. And for salary purposes...Wins like the one Tomko got tonight are undoubtedly used in salary negotiations, but they are often completely meaningless.
2. Why does an individual player need to get credit for a team victory? And if you feel such a need, why then can't offensive players get "wins"? I mean, if a guy slugs 2 grand slams and the starting pitcher gives up 7 runs and the team wins 8-7, why does the pitcher deserve more credit for the victory than the guy who hit the grand slams?

2006-08-08 22:10:35
323.   scooplew
We haven't had a longer winning streak in 30 years. I am delighted. And this after the worst 14-game span in the history of the franchise in Los Angeles. Remarkable.
2006-08-08 22:11:20
324.   Paul Scott
319 HAHAHA. Snakes on a Plane is actually about snakes on a plane. I honestly thought it was just some catchy title for a thriller or something. That movie is going to rock.
2006-08-08 22:12:12
325.   JoeyP
The NL West is the only division with at least 3 teams near the top.

AL Central/NL East are both done.
AL West/AL East/NL Central are two team races.

2006-08-08 22:13:32
326.   D4P
The NL West is the only division with at least 3 teams near the top

And yet, near the bottom at the same time. Ironic

2006-08-08 22:13:41
327.   scooplew
Before we worry about tomorrow's game or the Giants...

Domani, forget domani
Let's live for now and anyhow who needs domani?
The moonlight, let's share the moonlight

2006-08-08 22:15:05
328.   Greg S
My girlfriend won't let me. But thanks.
2006-08-08 22:15:25
329.   King of the Hobos
Colorado has the VORPingest rotation in the NL I believe, and Josh Fogg is a member of it. BPro might want to reconsider the park effects that VORP uses, as no rotation with Josh Fogg should be the best at anything. Francis, Jennings, and Cook all are in the top 20.
2006-08-08 22:15:25
330.   imperabo
322- Even people who think Wins are important don't think relief Wins are important. But you beat the tar out of that strawman if it makes you happy.
2006-08-08 22:15:37
331.   mikethinksblue
322, good points, I agree with you. Here are some possible explanations...

1. I would assume the negotiating team opening their checkbooks would look to other stats beyond wins.

2. You are correct on this point. Other than historical baseball record keeping, there is no reason why a W has to go to a pitcher.

2006-08-08 22:17:33
332.   mikethinksblue
Now, someone explain why the goalie in hockey gets the win
2006-08-08 22:17:56
333.   Gagne55
Dodgers win!!!!! w000000000t!!!!!!! 11 straight! w00t! pumps fist
2006-08-08 22:19:18
334.   Bob Timmermann

The wins and losses are just holdovers from times when pitchers almost always threw complete games.

But hockey and soccer both assign wins and losses to goalies and they usually play the whole game and they often times have even less to do with the outcome of the game than a pitcher does.

From what I've heard about arbitration hearings, relief wins are not a stat that is brought up much.

2006-08-08 22:20:50
335.   D4P
relief wins are not a stat that is brought up much

Which leads us to my next quixotic battle: the "save" statistic

2006-08-08 22:21:34
336.   Gagne55
Relief wins are an interesting topic. For instance, Tomko would not have gotten a win tonight if he hadn't thrown a shutout inning. Relief losses certainly are meaningful as it's always that reliever blowing the game. However, relief wins, though they can be rewards for holding the other team in a tie game or keeping the deficit overcomable, can also be a result of blown saves.
2006-08-08 22:22:36
337.   Bob Timmermann
Someone with this many quixtoic battles about scoring rules should really join SABR.

I can introduce you to the guy who thinks that no fielders other than the pitcher, catcher, and first baseman should have any designation.

2006-08-08 22:23:40
338.   D4P
I'm listening...
2006-08-08 22:24:40
339.   Gagne55
So, relief wins subtracting the blown save wins could be a good stat in how well a reliever keeps his team in it.
2006-08-08 22:25:15
340.   mikethinksblue
Speaking of quixotic battles... how come they record errors and not "good plays"? i would love to see the "good play" line in the box score
2006-08-08 22:27:23
341.   Robert Daeley
So ESPNews, pre-commercial break, highlights their story on the Dodgers game and "can they keep their streak going?" coming up next. And I'm wondering why they're showing highlights of Derek Lowe pitching and Bill Mueller hitting.

Then it becomes clear: both are former Red Sox, one of the two baseball teams ESPN actually covers. ;)

2006-08-08 22:28:12
342.   D4P
And why not show something more meaningful than errors in the abbreviated box score? Like walks, for example. I think the number of walks each team drew/issued probably tells us a lot more about the game than just seeing that the teams made 1 or 2 errors each.
2006-08-08 22:29:45
343.   Mr Customer
342 Or K's, maybe. Anything's better than E's.
2006-08-08 22:29:55
344.   scooplew
Relief wins sometimes come about as much by happenstance as by solid pitching. I remember 1959, when the Dodgers won the pennant and World Series. Johnny Klippstein was 4-0 in 28 relief appearances, yet had an ERA of 5.91. Teammate Clem Labine, one of the best relievers in the club's history, was 5-10 in 33 relief appearances, with an ERA of 3.93. Go figure.
2006-08-08 22:31:36
345.   Paul Scott
340 Same answer as before. Errors are not a statistic. They are an accounting mechanism. Something happened to move a runner from base X to base Y. You have to explain it. Errors are that explanation, nothing more.

As an aside - I agree as to the measurement of defense - there are three defensive plays - good, bad and neutral. That is how defense should be rated (and to a certain degree is how the +/- system, ZR and PMoD all work).

2006-08-08 22:32:20
346.   scooplew
Whoops. Labine was in 56 games, all in relief, in 1959.
2006-08-08 22:33:20
347.   Mr Customer
Heck, I could argue statistical arcana all night, but I won't. I'll save my tilting at the ERA windmill for another time.
2006-08-08 22:34:42
348.   Greg S
345. Is there any chance that you are not an accountat? And I certainly don't mean that in any negative way!
2006-08-08 22:35:28
349.   Greg S
348 Uhh accountant
2006-08-08 22:37:25
350.   Bob Timmermann
The errors in the line score are another 19th Century holdover. But then teams would make lots of errors. And there weren't as many walks.

Baseball hasn't changed now because baseball makes changes less frequently than the Vatican changes canon law..

Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2006-08-08 22:38:34
351.   D4P
Errors are not a statistic

I think it's more accurate to say they're not an "inferential" statistic, but they're nevertheless a "descriptive" statistic, no...?

2006-08-08 22:41:27
352.   Greg S
Penguins die in crash, octopus uninjured
This is an actual headline on right now. Their headline crack me up almost as often as do the Onions.
2006-08-08 22:43:33
353.   Steve
Accounting is a noble profession. The word "Count" is in your title.
2006-08-08 22:44:17
354.   mikethinksblue
Errors may not be a statistic relative to fielding ability, but it seems there should be some way of accounting for bases taken away by above average defense. Is there?
2006-08-08 22:46:55
355.   Paul Scott
348 Sorry, attorney.
2006-08-08 22:47:41
356.   Uncle Miltie
Recently traded Dodgers update:
1-4 2 K
Coming into the game: .257/.316/.257 3/6 BB/K
1-4 1 BB
Coming into the game: .238/.273/.286
1/3 IP 1 R 3 BB 1 K
Coming into the game: 4 IP 2 H 3 K 0.00 ERA- he was due :)

I'm really glad I don't have to cheer for Baez anymore just so we could get some top draft picks.

2006-08-08 22:48:17
357.   Greg S
355 Tax law?
2006-08-08 22:50:26
358.   Greg S
Hey Paul, nothing wrong with having your numbers down. As a wanna be neuroscientist, I'm just jealous.
2006-08-08 22:52:10
359.   Gen3Blue
Whoa--I fell asleep! 11 in a row--amazing.
Congrats everyone. Couldn't have been done without you.
2006-08-08 22:57:40
360.   Paul Scott
355 Patent and Antitrust by trade. General Counsel in-house now, however - which means I prety much do everything (except tax - I farm that out.)
2006-08-08 22:59:52
361.   Greg S
360 Very cool. One of the best aspects of this site is the wide range of interesting people that it brings together. United by only one thing... love of a team that has won 11 straight.
2006-08-08 23:01:30
362.   Paul Scott
351 Semantics. As long as you make a clear demarcation between W/L, Saves, Holds and Errors and every other stat I don't think it much matters if you call that demarcation accounting and statistics or call it "inferential" statistics and "descriptive" statistics. The point is they are different in kind.
2006-08-08 23:04:41
363.   D4P
Well, they are different in kind to a point. At least some portion of "hits" are similiar to "errors" in that they require judgment to be made on the part of the scorer. "Should the fielder have fielded that batted ball and put the batter out, or was it not reasonable to expect the fielder to do so? And should the fielder have held the batter to fewer bases, or was it not reasonable to expect the fielder to do so?"
2006-08-08 23:05:42
364.   Paul Scott
Add Runs and RBIs to that list to - though I suspect there would be some debate about that. To me they are just accounting tools, however.
2006-08-08 23:06:56
365.   Xeifrank
Another win, and a few more milimeters get added to the beard. I don't want to gloat, as paying respect to the Winning Streak Gods is a must.
vr, Xei
2006-08-08 23:07:43
366.   Steve
2006-08-08 23:07:52
367.   D4P
I'll go along with that.
2006-08-08 23:09:52
368.   Paul Scott
363 sort of. Part of me agrees completely since where hitting is concerned I don't really care whether a ball put in play happened to land for a hit or not.

But, errors are rare, so the total effect the judgement call of an error is swallowed by the large numbers of "clearly no judgement call" hits plus all outs. 100% of errors, however, are judgment calls.

2006-08-08 23:10:35
369.   bigcpa
364 I'm on a quest to have RBI's changed to the proper R's BI.
2006-08-08 23:12:42
370.   Paul Scott
369 it's not possessive, so both are wrong. RBI is probably the correct abbriviation for both the singular and the plural.
2006-08-08 23:12:54
371.   PDH5204
For both the stat freaks and the Lugo haters, well, first, no Dodger made the top 40, but when one sorts by bats right, bats left, switch hits, we find, for those who bat right:

And if I had my way, the other two of our 1st 3 batters would be:

2006-08-08 23:14:53
372.   Xeifrank
371. Got TinyUrl?
vr, Xei
2006-08-08 23:32:21
373.   Ken Arneson
FYI, I edited 371 so the long urls wouldn't break the page layout.
2006-08-09 00:07:02
374.   gibsonhobbs88
365 - Your growing beard, another guy not wearing his LA hat since they started winning, Betemit and Lugo going unbeaten in their first 8-10 days in the Blue, looking good. Dodger post-game and talk show talked about 11 game streak longest since 1993 and if they win tomorrow, it would tie the 76 Dodgers with a 12 game streak. Enjoyed the game tonight, glad they came back and prevented my wife and I from thinking we would be the "kiss of death" to the winning streak. Broxton made things a little interesting in the 8th, but a win is a win and Maddux kept us in the game to give us a chance to win even though he ends up with an ND. Padres lost, 1/2 game out! All is well in Dodgerland!! Goodnight!
2006-08-09 00:21:55
375.   PDH5204

As Ken reports, the kudos are to him. I otherwise never even new that such existed. But now, even if the addition is only considered microscopic, I am just that much the wiser. Again, with kudos to Ken.

2006-08-09 00:23:54
376.   thinkblue0
missed tonight's game due to work but caught Broxton's interesting inning during a break. I also have not shaved since the streak started and hopefully I have a full nasty beard by the end of it.

Feels good to have Maddux keeping us in games...definitely feel secure with him out there. Lots of us are talking about getting Zito and Schmidt...don't think that'll happen but if we could land Schmidt I would like to keep Maddux as well. Penny, Schmidt, Lowe, Maddux, Billingsley...not bad at all, and definitely realistic.

Enjoy these games..only .5 out! Let's go Dodgers and let's go Mets (for the next couple days).

2006-08-09 00:45:41
377.   Eric L
374 I should add that I haven't worn my LA hat since the last time that they lost a game. I happened to go to a concert at the House of Blues the Friday that the winning streak started and wore a different hat that night. The won and I didn't wear it the next day and so on and so forth.

11 wins later and I still haven't put the hat on. It's still sitting on my night stand.

Again, just as a reminder, I've pretty much worn a hat everday since the 18th of Jone. I'd say that about 98% of the time that I've put on the LA hat when I've had to go out since then (the end of the school year).

2006-08-09 00:47:45
378.   Eric L
377 Wow, that should be the 18th of June. I think I'm auditioning for Otis (from the last thread).
2006-08-09 00:53:56
379.   natepurcell
lol, I cant believe san diego front office didnt pull the trigger on the linebrink for betemit deal.
2006-08-09 00:55:55
380.   Eric L
Oh, and why is that I'm watching ESPNews and their doing some teaser for the streak but the guys they show are Cruz and Mueller? I know that Cruz had a little something to do with the streak, but what's up with showing Mueller highlights?
2006-08-09 01:18:23
381.   Uncle Miltie
379- Linebrink is what Mota used to be to the Dodgers. The Dodgers traded Mota (in a package deal) for Penny. The Padres wouldn't trade 30 year old Linebrink for the next Lou Whitaker. I'm guessing that Depodesta's voice is not being heard in San Diego. I expect Kevin Towers to be fired at the end of season, especially if the Padres don't make the playoffs.
2006-08-09 01:20:41
382.   natepurcell
Betemits numbers since becoming a Dodger.

36AB 306/359/611

and the wierd one, his BAIP is... .296

2006-08-09 05:19:13
383.   bluetahoe
i think Francis is Colorado's ace. We've missed him the 1st 3 series.
2006-08-09 07:33:43
384.   Sam DC
Looking forward to Jon's comments on the game, wondering if an eleven game win streak brings a bit of a Winner's Dividend?
2006-08-09 08:00:17
385.   Greg S
Hey Paul, the LAT stole your headline.
2006-08-09 08:28:24
386.   Benaiah
My freshman year roommate made the final table of the world series of poker! He is in 6th place when play resumes tomorrow, but worst case scenario he is going to make 1.5 million for his trouble. I am hoping to pull down 50K this year if I work hard enough to make bonuses and what not and three months out of college he has a shot at winning 12 million dollars tomorrow. Crazy.
2006-08-09 08:43:30
387.   3upn3down
A nice plug for Coletti from Herscheiser:

2006-08-09 08:47:17
388.   D4P
Where can one go to follow the results...?
2006-08-09 08:48:35
389.   Benaiah,though they have the day off today.
2006-08-09 08:51:50
390.   Jon Weisman
384 - It was a happy crowd last night, definitely. I do want to get a post up - just a matter of working it in.
2006-08-09 09:22:52
391.   Sam DC
From the Washington Post:

"McCartney has also frozen a joint bank account and sent a letter to Mills complaining that she took three bottles of cleaning fluid from his Sussex home to clean her nearby office."


2006-08-09 09:29:53
392.   the OZ
391 It's called a "nasty divorce." I'm sure one of the Dodger Thoughts In-House Counsels can explain in greater detail :)
2006-08-09 09:33:47
393.   xaphor
[391] That's War of the Roses material.
2006-08-09 09:41:09
394.   underdog
387 And a nice piece on Colletti by the SF Chronicle's Ray Ratto (one of my favorite sports columnists):

Ratto was at the game last night, too, apparently.

Colletti goes rags to riches
"Ned Colletti has seen teams go from zero to 600 in two weeks before, but never one with his name on it until now.

Thus, as he sat calmly in the Dodgers' dugout Tuesday before Los Angeles lavished its always conditional love on Greg Maddux for the first time, his face betrayed none of the ravishing that must have taken place as he went from freefall to shuttle launch."

2006-08-09 09:43:59
395.   Bob Timmermann
So the Giants exercise unconditional love for their players? Hmmm....
2006-08-09 10:02:15
396.   underdog
395 No, but maybe their fans do? (i.e., Barry Bonds?)
2006-08-09 10:03:30
397.   gibsonhobbs88
377 - Way to go! You are to be commended for your dedication to doing your part in keeping the streak alive. Whenever the odds catch up with them and they finally lose a game, you can take the hat off the stand, shake out the cobwebs and wear it again with pride.
376 - I hope your beard gets as long as the ZZ Top guys!! LOL
2006-08-09 10:06:13
398.   Jon Weisman
New posts up top.

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