That piece was most ethie.

Buyback days. Teachers know what buyback days are. They mean... school is starting soon. Summer is fast becoming my favorite time of the year, ever.

Grittle is a blast, IMHO. I don't know if he's been getting criticized in the threads--I've got some catching up to do on this site--but I like having him as Dodger manager. My friend will say it's only because I'm comparing him to the previous manager and he may have a point.

The Ethiest line in the piece was the one about the "robust brew of...stats".

Mmm, brew...Mmm, stats...

2 - As someone said in the comments recently, the fact that Little has escaped any kind of consistent criticism on this site speaks volumes for him.

When I make cursory glances at other message boards, I have seen him criticized harshly, though.

3 - Are stats an ale or a lager?

Oh, there's loads to love about Grittle. As has been noted here before, he's flexible in ways that uh, other Dodger managers of recent vintage were not. Plus he's hiliarious. The recent remarks about Maddux--"Well, you've got to give credit to Rick Honeycut for turning him around"--are my current fave. Plus he doesn't throw his own players under the bus. Really, I'm happy with him and I don't think I'm alone.

4 - Criticized on what grounds?

Grady is HI-larious. What's not to like?

I can only think of five or six truly boneheaded things Grady has done this year.

This immediately vaults him to managerial excellence.

9-I'd say that's fair. Really when you consider the sheer number of opportunities managers have to be boneheaded, a handful per season is amply permissible.

Just so long as, uh, they don't happen in the late innings of the league championship series or anything like that...

7 - Usual things - lineups, pitching changes, pinch-hitting decisions.

5 Traditional counting stats like RBI and Batting Average are light and refreshing, like a lager. More formulaic rate stats like OBP, SLG, and OPS are richer, ranging from amber to brown ale.

VORP is a stout.

Update above on Kershaw and Elbert.

From afar, the things I like about Grittle include: he doesn't take himself too seriously, he doesn't take credit for success, he's not afraid to put players in position to fail (i.e. he gave the youngsters a chance), and most importantly, he does not ask and answer his own questions.

Every manager can be criticized for something, and some managers can be criticized for a lot of things [glances towards Pittsburgh], but I'm not sure any non-hypothetical manager could've done a better job with this team than Grady has.

and Russell Martin as a backup catcher to Seattle's Kenji Johjima.

I'm sure most DT'ers agree that Kenji Johjima in not a rookie.

12 - LOL

16. Ttrue, but neither was Nomo and neither is Saito. We can't have it both ways.

16 Nor Saito, either.

12 Very nicely done. Cheers.

16 But he is a stud.

The Los Angeles Dodgers are looking for a left-handed-hitting reserve such as Gload to replace Ricky Ledee, whom the New York Mets claimed on waivers Aug. 9.

That was in the Chicago Tribune today. I have no idea if it's true or if the front office has really soured on Loney as Ledee's replacement, so interpret it as you want.

Dodger farmhands Scott Elbert and Clayton Kershaw are Nos. 1 and 2 on Kevin Goldstein's list of left-handed pitching prospects in the minors

Combine that with the 8th-best lefthander in the American League, and, well, wow...just wow...

16 - I'm fine calling him a rookie. Hard to complain when Saito's on there.

12 - Mmmm.

22 - I give it a big "whatever." The Dodgers are short on left-handed bats, so they could still be looking for another one even assuming they still like Loney. But I'll not hold my breath.

Speaking of Donovan's article, who wants to join my crusade to rid the world of catcher ERA?

22 I can't believe that the front office has soured on Loney. It may just be a Trib reporter who doesn't get why the Dodgers would keep Loney over Ledee speculating.

28 I can't believe Ned would want Gload and not Ledee.

I think to mix things up, we should spell the player's names as Saitoh and Jojima.

16 But he is a stud.

haven't seen much of him but agreed.

Reprint from previous thread:
Just curious: If DT posters got to vote for one free agent pitcher to acquire in the off-season, Who would it be? Zito? Schmidt? Matsuzaka? Somebody else?

29 There's that, too.

Loney's OPS for August is 1.049. Nobody could get sour about that.

27 - I'll be a footsoldier.

93,94,95 from the last thread.
Reg, as an avid reader of the former Dodgermath, I pretty much have respect for whatever you have to say. And I agree with your order of the pitchers to be wanted.
Zito has had some great BABIP numbers, never abover .300 etc, but other thank knuckleballers this is supposed to be due to luck right? Do you think that because of the severe break of his curve and its slow speed, he induces more weak contact leading to that low BABIP. I know peripheral numbers aren't as important when a players career BABIP numbers are low, but the utter weakness of his fastball/change scares me--the second his curve starts to decline, his time as a productive starter will be over. And I wouldn't mine signing him either, but only for 8-9 mil a year. IMO he's not even as good as Penny, just living off the CY reputation.
Also I think his lack of injury can be attributed to his low stress delivery with low stress(read slow) pitches. If you're throwing 84-85, it's not surprising that you may not be as sore.

27.
And I will join that battle anyday, I was reading an article linked from Buster Olney's blog about how Johjima has been terrible defensively this year because all the Mariners pitchers ERA are higher with thim than with his backup. When will people start believing in sample size. Otherwise, Johjima is rated as an average defensive catcher by most advanced metrics.

Speaking of Donovan's article, who wants to join my crusade to rid the world of catcher ERA?

Is there no systematic variation in catcher ERA that cannot be explained by non-catcher-related factors...?

I'm pretty sure Matsuzaka needs one more year to be a free agent. I think it will take a posting to get him. Either way, I would go after him. He has proved himself to be extremely durable in Japan. Plus, if he was on the Dodgers, I could at least watch every fifth game live on NHK.

Fantasy baseball question:

In my league, I'm allowed to keep four rookies. Without getting into too much detail about the keeper rules, if I keep a guy, I have the opportunity to hold onto him forever. There are six players I have that are worth keeping: Johjima, Billingsley, Broxton, Andy Marte, Jeremy Sowers, and Shin Soo Choo. Since the trade deadline is approaching, I want to deal at least one of the guys I can't keep.

Johjima is the only one I'm really sure about not trading since I can't lose his bat this year. The other five are up for grabs. Which three would you hold on to?

I can't say I haven't wondered how Hendrickson would do with Martin catching him instead of Hall. But I also can't say I've expected the results to be much different.

Extra Innings and Gameday Audio are working again!

Moral: Don't let crazy drunk girls into your apartment because one of them will kick your cable splitter in such a way that every channel you own comes in fine except for the baseball games you paid $160 for.

Now back to my hermitage.

35 Correct. The theory on Zito is that his curve ball is so good, it has the same effect on balls in play as a knuckleball.

I'm no expert on how things like breaking pitches decline as a pitcher gets older, so I can't comment on that either way.

Right now, the Dodgers stacked farm system and large budget gives them the ability to overpay free agents, since the budget is pretty clear after 2007 and the departing players can be replaced on the cheap. Because of this, I have no problem giving Zito more than he deserves, though if it starts getting in to the 14-15 million per year range, I'd back out.

Something like five years, sixty million is overpaying, but I'd be okay with it.

32

i'd bet on the younger, but I've heard Matsuzaka has thrown a ton of pithes in Japan, I'd be happy with either Matsuzaka or Zito.

ps can you imagine next year (pitching staff) wow.

Speaking of Hendrickson, he would be the one I would send down when Elmer comes back. As the 5th starter, stretch will not get a sniff in the post season. 12 pitchers are not needed when you are down to a 4-man rotation. In fact, a case could be made for 10 pitchers.

39 Easy. Hold Broxton, Billingsley, Johjima. You need the catcher for now, and Broxton has too much closer potential in the next few years. Assuming you have to bid/"pay" for players, in a world where the JJ Putzes of the world go for $8 and up, the Ox is a keeper for sure. Billingsley has a lot of long-term value as a cheap, potentially very effective starter; I wouldn't give that up.

38
I would be shocked if Seibu didn't post Matsuzaka. They would want the money.

Despite being in first place and despite being owned by one of Japan's largest corporations, Seibu still sold the naming rights to its stadium, so it's now the Invoice Seibu Dome, and they almost never sell out.

A lot of that is because although they are nominally a Tokyo area team, they play in an area that's about as easy to get to as Colton on a Friday night on a holiday weekend. (Flashbacking to a really bad traffic experience here.) There are direct trains from Tokyo to the Seibu Dome, but I was never able to get one and ended up having to change trains twice. Of course, it's the Seibu train that takes you to the Seibu Dome.

Oh, and the Dome isn't closed on the sides either.

http://home.earthlink.net/~japanbbtrip2003/id25.html

37.
Pitcher's are so hard to predict and sample sizes between different catchers would be so small that it would be nearly impossible to differentiate, I think.
Also, from a non-numbers point of view, very few catchers actually select pitches. Other than that, how can a catcher affect pitcher's ERA? The only thing I can think of is certain catchers block balls better in the dirt, giving pitchers more confidence to aim low in the zone.

What helps Grady is that Los Angeles is not Boston and Dodger fans don't come close to Red Sox Nation in its obsession about every little move.

I am sure a comment like that in the Boston Globe would have caused a meltdown in the Tri-state area while to me, its just something that makes me smile.

After years of the Mechanical Man and prior to that, a burned out Davey Johnson, Grady is really refreshing like an ice cold glass of lemonade.

And I knew this year was going to be different once I heard Grady doing Jiffy Lube commercials.

41 I appreciate you support of the team but are having crazy drunk girls in your apartment ever a bad idea? Maybe age makes me forget the downside of that scenario.

39,45.
I say Billingsley, Johjima, and Broxton or Marte. Sowers is playing out of his mind right now, beware the finesse lefty(Zach Duke) and remember that it's fantasy, so k's matter just as much as ERA. Broxton's value is all in how soon you think he will be a "closer."

With regards to the fantasy question, I meant three players in addition to Johjima.

Choo is the one I'm the most torn about. I don't think he's going to be a superstar big leaguer, but his speed means he could be a fantasy stud.

With this in mind, I'll probably look to deal Sowers.

49 I was just going to ask the same question. Crazy drunk girls in an apartment are like the exact opposite of snakes on a plane.

41 I'm curious
a) how you were able to find out the problem was with the splitter,
b) how you were able to pinpoint that a crazy, drunk girl had kicked the splitter, and
c)when is your next party?

52 - Snakes on a Plane II: Crazy Drunk Snakes!

49 While on the surface this would seem to be a grand idea, the truth of the matter is that crazy drunk people (no matter what gender) eventually sober up, but they don't "sane up," if you know what I mean. And then you're stuck with crazy sober people and no baseball games you paid $160 for. ;)

47 I fully agree with that. Things like calling the game and framing pitches probably do have some effect, they just get lost in the natural flucations that pitchers make every year.

Would the movie snakes on a plane be better if it was snakes on a plane full of drunk crazy girls?

MLB Extra Innings Package: $160
New Cable Splitter: $3.99
Crazy Drunk Girls in Your Apartment: Priceless

32 I'd definitely make a run at Matsuzaka. The only question for me is, how much $$$ is he worth? The Yankees and Mariners will probably pull out all the stops for him. I'm thinking $25m just for the rights. And then you still have to sign the guy. Who knows what that will take, especially considering Boras is his agent.

54 Nobody ever gets tired of all these [insert profanity] crazy, drunk girls in this [insert profanity] apartment.

52 I would guess that if you listed things people were scard of, flying and snakes would make the top ten if not the top 5.

60 Hey, no discussing politics.

Regarding snakes on planes, you can go to some website and a recording of Sam Jackson will call your friends' phones and, um, strongly encourage them to go watch "Snakes on a Plane" with you.

I got one of these calls from my buddy Jeff. It was quite amusing. One giant leap for viral marketing!

And I knew this year was going to be different once I heard Grady doing Jiffy Lube commercials.

combine Jiffy Lube & Grady's voice in Los Angeles! (priceless)

62 I was wondering if that would get me in trouble.

I guess I'll find out when my account gets deleted.

Jon, just curious--when did you interview Ethier, Little, et al? Does si.com give you a press pass to certain games?

No, I mean crazy.

One in particular, banging her head on the hardwood floor, embracing a stereo speaker as if it was one of those full body pillows (legs wrapped around it and everything), forcing me to play "November Rain" repeatedly at full volume, smoking cigarettes (what a waste!) in my apartment.

The next morning I found a half empty can of Coors Light in the freezer, which is a scenario wrong on more levels that I care to get into.

The highlight was when she had to be forcibly restrained from taking a fully-clothed bath in the tub I hadn't cleaned in about two months (I cleaned it yesterday, just in case.)

If any of you think that sounds like fun we can trade anytime, and I'll spend a nice quiet evening with your wife (and even your kids, if they're not demonspawn).

61 The sequel will be "Public Speaking on a Plane". Or maybe "Relationship Commitment on a Submarine".

68

LOL + Danny Thomas coffee spit take!

66 - I interviewed them Friday before the game. I got a press pass this year.

68 - DePodesta, Sasha Cohen and Plaschke on a Plane

70. Can there only be 2 parachutes?(Guess who doesn't get one...)

71

wild guess...(plaschke)

68 Vinyl siding salemen on a plane.

70 So Jon, what's it like to be in the same room with Bill Plaschke?

As a disclaimer, I went to an event at the UCLA Book Festival last year and saw Plaschke interview Frank Deford, who had just written a book about Christy Mathewson and John McGraw. Plaschke took time to blast Bonds, steroids, Depodesta (Moneyball), etc.

So I have actually basked in the presence of Plaschke, I also saw and heard T.C. Boyle, Carrie Fisher and Eric Idle, all of them were much more entertaining than Bill.

74.
I have had the "pleasure" of meeting Mr Bill 4-5 years ago after winning some LA Times sports writing award in high school. He was REALLY nice, suprisingly enough, and could even remember my piece, but god I hate him as a columnist. I'm sure Simers is actually a terrible person in real life, though.

67 In other words wrapping themselves seductively around inanimate objects, volunteering for wet t-shirt duty, enjoying getting dirty -- one man's trash is another man's treasure.

75 I think he probably he is a nice guy and I believe it was really hard for him not to jab Depodesta in yesterday's column (and I agree with Rob @ 6-4-2 that Ethier, just being named Texas League Player of the Year, was not exactly a sleeper prospect) that those types of columns is where he excels.

71 The punchline to that joke is always "well, the smartest man on the plane just jumped out with my lunch sack"

75 TJ is a very nice person.

74 - I've never had a bad moment with Plaschke. I've actually never heard of anyone not finding him pleasant in person.

So what would be a good road trip after this latest run.

I am expecting 5-4, 6-3 would certainly validate the last 3 weeks and anything better might make me start projecting the playoff rotation.

The good news is that our number 5 starter, whoever it is, is only scheduled to pitch once.

So get your predictions early.

76

I can definitely see that side of it, and I'm not regularly opposed to any of the concepts you've listed. Believe me.

This time things just felt really un-good.

Jon, thanks for all those links and info.

Over 48 hours without Dodger game is going to be rough but we're glad to have DT to keep us going.

It would be great to see another winning streak but it would be nicer to see more consistency from our team rest of the year.

Old Friend Odalis Perez taking on the White Sox in Chicago. 2-2 after two. Both pitchers (Buehrle going for the White Sox) have given up a solo home run in each of the first two innings.

I somewhat expected.

Odalis is the star of today's RGC!

There's still plenty of time for Perez to Odalisize the game.

84 - Yes, though the definition of that word involves his team getting a big lead first.

80 Winning all three series.

This must be old friend day, with Jeff Weaver pitching against the Reds and OP pitching against the Pale Hosers. Also, Sandy Alomar is in the lineup against Odalis (wasn't he supposed to be OP's caddy?) And there is hope that Baez will get in the game against the Nationals. And who knows maybe Ricky Ledee will get a pinch hit assignment later in the Mets game.

And you thought the Dodgers were off today.

Kevin Goldstein: That Jon Weisman is a cool guy too. I don't say that about a lot of bloggers.

Who cares what he says about the prospects, now everyone in BP land is going, who is Jon Weisman?

The Alomar as Odalis's personal catcher experiment lasted one game. It didn't go well. I was there.

I think Lt. Bookman tells all his friends that Bob is a cool guy.

And Baez joins in the fun in DC.

90 - Bob Timmermann's nickname is Joyboy.

88.
Heh I asked that question, I never get questions answered.

I'm examing a new book on how to operate a casino.

I have news for anyone planning to visit a casino soon:

The House will win.

There are lots of charts and tables showing how that will happen.

78 Thank you, Marty. ;^)

94.
Damnit, I'm going to vegas tomorrow.

93 Since he has ranked Loney, Dewitt, Abreu, Hu (lowest), LaRoche, Kemp and now Elbert and Kershaw among the best in their positions during his postional rankings, while Arizona and Tampa Bay have some higher ceiling position players, the Dodgers should be in the top 5-6 teams depending on if Kemp does not get anymore at bats (doubtful) so he will still qualify as a rookie and none of the other guys suffer any set backs.

96 If you mail me all the money you have, you can save a bundle on carfare.

97.
Yeah I know we have a great system etc, but right now it's producing hitters, with one starter to show. While I'm excited as hell for Elbert and Kershaw, given the lessons of EJ I'm going to wait on their somewhat distant callups to get super excited. I was 3 in 88, there haven't been a lot of highlights in my dodger-life, and I can't put in words how excited I would be if we have 3 quality starters make the majors.

96
Do you want to see the table that shows how much of a plane ticket you should be comped depending on how much baccarat you play?

For example, if your average baccarat bet is going to be $1000 and you go through 15 shoes, you should be comped for up to $2,980 in air fare.

This table was computed by someone at Cornell.

Kyle Lohse vs. Jeff Weaver - scoreless through four!

101 Some would say that Danny Baez pitching a scoreless innning would require even more !!!

100.
I go to Columbia, apparently we look down on cornell.
(just kidding, I swear)
But you can beat the odds on blackjack if you get an 8 deck shoe, and my little math nerd mind is going to have a lot of fun.

One out away from Weaver and Baez throwing 8 combined scoreless innings.

From p. 223 of the book

"Blackjack is the only casino game that can be beaten by the player. A player skilled in card counting can actually play with an advantage ..."

The house is aiming for a 0.73% edge and they will adjust accordingly.

A-Rod made an error (nunber 22) on a pop-up today, while in a 12-2 game, it should not matter, there is no doubt what the callers will be hot about after the game.

105
Do they no longer offer Tic-Tac-Toe in casinos...?

105.
The way they adjust is they make you move to a higher minimum bet table so that your ability to vary your bet relative to your total playable money is significantly reduced, significantly reducing the advantage of card counting. You can also only really do it with a good 8 deck shoe.

108

They can also move you to a busier or slower table to change the number of hands you get per hour.

There isn't much that casinos haven't figured out. It's like a license to print money!

109.
Hence the popularity of poker, the math guys can grind away there with a significant statistical advantage and the house won't care, because all they do is take their rake.

Jon, does Plaschke or anyone in the Dodgers organization know of and or read your site? If so, could you share with us who?? :)
vr, Xei

I hate seeing Sports tv channels being wasted on poker tournaments. Next thing you know they will be televising keno or mah jong(sp?). vr, Xei

Is nobody else outraged that John Donovan picked Kenji Johjima over Russ Martin on his all-rookie team on SI.com? That's an outrageous claim that can't even be backed up by the numbers. Please send that guy a comment so he knows how stupid he looked by doing that.

111 - I think that most people involved with the Dodgers are aware of it at this point. How often they read it, I couldn't tell you.

114 I only hope they can get the concessions lines to move faster.

Here's a quick breakdown of the Russ Martin/Kenji Johjima numbers, by the way.

Martin (83 games): 43 runs, 21 doubles, 3 triples, 6 home runs, 47 RBI, 8 stolen bases, .303 avg, .370 obp, .830 ops.

Johjima (108 games): 48 runs, 18 doubles, 1 triple, 13 home runs, 53 rbi, 1 stolen base, .298 avg, .339 obp, .797 ops. Please defend your selection.

1-1 Cincinnati vs. St. Louis - Top 8 - Reds have a runner on 3rd with one out

Canseco as a pitcher. Is there a more laughable story in sports this year?

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2552112

PS: I'd hate to be the guy that stuck out to him. How embarrassing!

It's hard to beat someone with a name like Kenji Johjima.

The Reds couldn't score. Going to the bottom of the 8th in the Mound City.

Odalis is probably done for the day. Not a terrible outing: seven innings, four runs, six strike outs, five hits, one walk.

Only problem was two runs.

Ahh, the Reds. What other NL playoff contender can relieve Kyle Lohse with the likes of Ryan Franklin?

Odalis actually did out pitch Buerhle despite allowing more runs. Not that that's much of an accomplishment nowadays.

122
Of course, the Dodgers can send out Mark Hendrickson and bring in Giovanni Carrara.

124 Then shut the door with Aaron Sele.

The Yankees are headed for a loss and the last two pitchers for the Orioles have been Russ Ortiz and Bruce Chen.

Jon's excellent article raises a related question that I've wanted to ask some of our minor-league gurus:

How much of the Dodgers' success in the draft lately has been the result of finding studs that other teams overlook, and how much has been due to great draft position? This is not a thinly veiled critique - it's a sincere question. I'm sure it's a little of both, but I guess what I'm really wondering is, how often have other teams picked guys ahead of the Dodgers that the Dodgers or Nate or Canuck or Hobos or whoever else pays good attention to these things would have passed on?

For example, with Kershaw, it seems that those in the know were pretty sure he'd fall to the Dodgers, and he did, and that's great. Were the guys picked ahead of him all obviously better? Will Logan White start looking less magical if the team starts getting lousier draft slots?

Baseball isn't like football or basketball, where teams often have to draft for need, allowing someone like, say, Aaron Rodgers to fall halfway down the first round because none of the teams before the Packers needed a QB. In baseball, given the long development time and huge number of trades, my guess is that stockpiling any kind of talent is a good idea, to be sorted out later by the market.

No game today, so I figured I'd throw out a complicated question.

127
I was actually wondering the same thing. Also, how much is the Dodgers drafting success based on their ability to sign their draft choices (a certain Royals farm hand notwithstanding.) Do Dodger draft picks fall into their lap because the teams drafting above them simply don't think they can sign them?

Some things to think about as I cheer for the D-Backs and Padres to lose (I am not cheering for the Giants to win).

116-

I'll absolutely take Martin. Just by the offensive numbers alone it looks like Johjima may have a bit more HR power, but that's about it.

I'll take the guy who gets on base more when it comes to catchers over the few extra HR. Not to mention Martin is actually pretty speedy compared to other catchers.

Not saying I don't like Johjima...but I just think Martin is the better player right now..but not by a ton.

Would like to check out the defensive numbers, but I'm headed out to get Pho! Haven't had that in about two years.

Real pho? Or faux pho?

127 I will take a crack, obviously Ethier was a product of a trade but part of Logan White's philosophy was to take high ceiling high school pitchers (Billingsley, Elbert and Kershaw) while others were taking college players. The Dodgers were fortunate that Hochevar went as the first pick (which no one foresaw until the last week or so before the draft and that Andrew Miller was passed for signability issues which let them get Kershaw at 7.

I don't think anyone knew for sure and the fact that they were going to pick Bryan Morris at 7 and were able to get him at 25/26 should tell you about their philosophy.

Were the guys ahead of Kershaw better, off the top of my head, Hochevar and Miller should see the majors within a year or so, Evan Longoria has gotten raves thus far, the only one I can think of that may be questionable is the Rockies pick of Reynolds, a college pitcher out of Stanford I think. And that has more to deal with his ceiling.

As far as finding players other teams overlook, the first round always gets the most notice but Kemp was a 6th round pick I believe, Russ was in the late teens, LaRoche was taken in the 38th round because no one thought he would sign (Dodgers signed him for a million). On the other hand, Loney, Billingsley, Broxton, Elbert, Kershaw, Morris and Mattingley were all taken in the fist or second round.

No game today, so I figured I'd throw out a complicated question

Complicated questions on game days are "OK" in my book...

I wonder, has Hendrickson ever tried to throw a slider? If not, I wonder why, wouldn't him being so tall increase the effectiveness of a slider?

If anyone cares/missed it, this snippet from LA Times' TJ Simers today, about yesterday's blowout====

"HENDRICKSON WALKED the bases loaded in the first, and with Cody Ross due up, Little went to the mound to presumably remind Hendrickson that the Dodgers had essentially cut Ross, so no sweat. Ross then doubled home three runs.

"Ross singled in his next at bat, driving home another run, and this time it was pitching coach Rick Honeycutt who went to the mound to talk to Hendrickson, presumably to tell him that the Dodgers had cut the wrong guy"

134 That was cute but of course Hendrickson was not on the team at that time.

I think that most people involved with the Dodgers are aware of it at this point. How often they read it, I couldn't tell you.

I consider our site underground the less people know about it the better (loyal Dodger fans aside) this is how I like it.just my 4 cents.

115 - When they start hiring folks under the age of 80, the lines will move faster.
:)
126 - So the Yanks will be 1.5 games ahead of the Sox headed into their huge 5 game series this weekend at the Fens. So we have the two greatest rivalries in baseball this weekend, Yanks-Sox and Dodgers-Giants. You got to love it!!
By the way-The Angels seem to aspiring to appear on a growing list of teams to feud with: Lackey v.Kendall with the A's, the Rangers, Escobar v. White Sox cather A.J. earlier this year from last year's ill fated strike 3 with Eddings forgetting how to umpire. Who's next??

Wasn't last year the only one in which they've had great draft positions? Before last year, they hadn't finished under .500 since 1999. Between that, and their free agent habit (the reason we didn't have picks, this year, in rounds two through, what, five?), it doesn't seem likely that they've had great draft positions (though, I should actually look it up, instead of just guessing).

127 I've actually looked at this a little bit lately. Supposedly, White's strength has been his ability to identify talent after the obvious top picks are taken. In other words, among the pool of players that most teams agree could be good players but not sure things, White is able to identify the best of the bunch.

Billingsley, Elbert, and Loney were all taken in the second half of the first round. Greg Miller was a sandwich pick, #31 overall. Russ Martin was a late-round pick.

Here's a link to draft results. You can navigate around for yourself. I sometimes find it interesting to play a game of "who could the Dodgers have picked in this round instead of the selection they made?".

http://thebaseballcube.com/draft/index.shtml

127
The reason Logan White is on a pedestal is because he did build the number one minor league system without a top 10 pick. Arizona got a no brainer with Steve Drew and Upton since they were top 5 talent but until this year Logan has never drafted higher then 17th.
Martin - 17th round 2002, ROY candidate, incredible pick.
Loney - 1st round pick, 19th pick
LaRoche - 39th round pick, signability issue
Kemp - 6th round pick - considered a stretch
Broxton - 2nd round pick, 60th overall
Billingsly -1st round pick, 24th overall
Elbert - 1st round, 17th pick
DeWitt - 1st round, 28th pick

Saw this at BTF:

http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/15290920.htm

Dear (insert deity of choice here), please watch over Clay Kershaw's left shoulder, elbow, wrist and finger nails. And if you could keep an eye on his knee's, hamstrings, and groin muscles for the next 20 years, a great dodger nation will be forever indebted.

Amen!!!

Not his knee's hamstrings, his knees and hamstrings. Apologies from a spell check dependent blogger.

142.
And watch over Chad Billinglsey and Scott Elbert too, please.

Snakes! In the woods!

Is a pistol the right tool for snake huntin'?

Cue the "Snakes on a Farm" jokes...

Elbert has struggled at AA.
8Hrs in 40IP.
K's are good- 55
BB's not so good-26

Most everyone has said Jacksonville is a tough park to hit HRs in, so Elbert's been getting hit hard.

Dewitt is 7/42- .167/.255/.167
Chin Hu is OPS'ing .652 on the season.

The farm's actually somewhat lean right now. It'll be interesting what BA ranks the Dodgers next year.

147 Isn't Elbert only 20 years old (or just turned 21) and playing at AA?

I'm not sweating it.

137
In addition to the Dodgers-Giants and Red Sox-Yankees series this weekend, the Cubs are playing the Cardinals and the White Sox are playing the Twins.

A little help? I have a friend who's a New Yorker. I'm taking nothing for granted here, but in the event that the Dodgers and Mets meet in the playoffs we would like to make a friendly wager on the series. Nothing serious, just the sort of stuff mayors do when their respective teams meet in a World Series or Super Bowl. Something with a local cultural flavor. He has already agreed to put up a dozen genuine NY bagels but I am at a loss as to what I could offer in return. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated, but please bear in mind that there will be shipping involved here and I am poor.

Thanks!

Elbert was born May 13th, 1985.
He's 21yrs old.

150
Send him something that represents California's leading cash crop: grapes!

Or you can go for #2: almonds.

Dairy products are way ahead of the other two though. Maybe he'd like a quart of milk?

147 I would imagine the Dodgers will be high again with BA, even with the promotions/trades of several 2006 top prospects. Gone from the top 20 are:

1) Billingsley (LA)
3) Guzman (traded to TB)
4) Martin (LA)
4) Ethier (LA; not included in top 20 in book since he was an Athletic (#4), but he was rated slightly ahead of Matt Kemp, who was #6 for LA)
5) Broxton (LA)
6) Kemp (LA; BA's cutoff is 130 "at-bats"...I'm not sure if they mean AB or PA, but Kemp is at 122 AB & 133 PA, almost certain to get 8 more AB anyway)
15) Pimentel (traded to KC)
16) Blake Johnson (traded to KC)

I don't have the BA 2006 book in front of me, so I can't confirm those prospect numbers are accurate.

They still have top level talent. The top 2007 prospects will probably be:

LaRoche
Elbert
Kershaw
Orenduff
Loney (currently at 80 PA, might still be a "prospect")
DeWitt

Those alone, along with Young, Hu, Morris, etc should keep the Dodgers in Baseball America's top 10

Kevin Correia looks like he will be trying to get the rare 14-out save for the Giants in San Diego.

The Padres will slip below .500 if they don't rally.

150.
Ask him for bagels from Ess-A-Bagel. Trust me.

152 I suspect Bob means "California's leading legal cash crop."

If you go with the actual leading cash crop this bet may be way more interesting than you anticipate.

154 Do you mean 11-out save?

Actually, it's going to be an 11-out save for Correia.

156 Yeah, that was my first thought too. Maybe I could combine two suggestions and send him a quart of milk from a cow that grazed on the #1 cash crop.

75...I've met TJ Simers and had dinner with him, through my brother. He's a nice guy and is very knwledgable.

He says that his articles are nonsense and are used to get people's goads.

I still don't read them, but talking to him gave me another persepctive.

Thanks for all the draft thoughts. Interesting stuff.

150. Tamales!

150 Send him a dozen handmade tamales.

159
I know a guy in Idaho who can tell you if a dairy cow was grazing on marijuana by just tasting the milk.

159 It's worth a shot. At your own risk you could query Google and see what the research shows on that.

Ess-A-Bagels are great, though H&H are more famous and also wonderful. Or check out Zabar's online and see what you like.

Padres' will have the 2nd worst home record in MLB baseball after their loss today.

Royals are 26-33 at home.
Padres are 28-35 at home.
Braves/Cubs are 25-31 at home.

Always late to the party 161

163 Is his name Pedro Sanchez?

He says that his articles are nonsense and are used to get people's goads.

Goats -- right? You goad somebody, but you could also get their goat.

Out #11 proved too tough for Correia.

147 On the one hand, 8 home runs is not great, but teams are batting .176 against him in AA, he has only allowed 16 other hits besides those home runs, with men on base, teams are batting .188 and with RISP, .156

Interestingly, he has pitched better on the road at both A and AA this year.

He probably has 3-4 starts left in the regular season and one start in the playoffs. With a little over 125 IPs combined, maybe he gets to 145 or so IPs, he probably gets shut down for the year and starts next year back in AA.

Padres should have at least 36 losses.

147 Must you always bring up the gloomy side of everything? Elbert's giving up about 1/2 a hit per inning, I wouldn't call that being "hit hard". Even with the high walks, his WHIP is a very good 1.14 and his ERA a solid 3.34 (all according to Rotoworld).

Dewitt's is a very small sample size and discounts the strides he made in the last few months at hi-A.

Hu you have a point about.

172 Again, if the Dodger pitching prospects don't have great control, strike out a ton of guys and don't give up homers, JoeyP is going to be disappointed.

BTW, he would have written off Koufax well before 1962.

Rally killer by Josh Barfield.

8-4 Giants in the 9th.

But the bases are empty....

Rally killer by Josh Barfield.

8-4 Giants in the 9th.

But the bases are empty....

BBs and HR/9 at the minor league level are pretty important.

Its what kept Tiffany from amounting to anything.

DeWitt's been a disappointment considering his amount of hype. His power was nice to see at Vero, but everything else didnt really suggest top prospect status, especially given his new position.

I knew that would happen.

169 Darn, no 11-out save today.

However, if Giles and Gonzalez can get on, Benetiz could get a save.

178
Or even 14 outs!

Has it not been pointed out yet that Jon snuck the phrase "You do the math" into his piece on Ethier...?

153, 147 I forgot about #13 prospect Chuck Tiffany, who was sent with E-Jax to Tampa.

176 The only thing is that Elbert has been pretty dominating otherwise, it does appear that Kershaw has a little better upside right now.

I agree about DeWitt though I think he is somewhere in between what we saw in Columbus and Vero Beach. But with Abreu, Hu, LaRoche, and Betemit, they have a lot of time to give him. And he still has some support in places like Baseball America.

181 - Thank you.

Its what kept Tiffany from amounting to anything.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Tiffany's career isn't over. He's not a top prospect (was he ever considered a top prospect?), but he's far from valueless.

Even borderline prospects that make the big leagues and produce at replacement level add value to their clubs while their contracts are under club control.

With HR #16 yesterday LaRoche has a .313/.413/.493 line. Next year he can be our Kevin Youkilis.

Is the game you all are talking about the game that, when I checked in on the score, was a 3-0 one-hitter after seven?

187

Indeed.

Both teams pens were burnt out after last night's marathon.

When Williamson came in last night, Kuiper couldn't ID him, so he said, "When we return, 'That Guy' is coming in to pitch for the Padres."

I almost expected someone in San Diego to be flying a kite with Scott Williamson's cariacature on it.

Huh. Just figured out that JoeyP and oldbear are one and the same.

This knowledge doesn't change my evaluation of the content of any of his (their) posts, but it does bring a little more order to my world.

I'm generally the last person to know anything, so this probably comes as non-news to most of you. I just like to share my epiphanies.

My last one was about the blue LA team playing in Los Angeles and the red team playing in Orange County. That's been true for quite a while, of course, but the blue-state red-state thing is only a few years old.

Group challenge:

Without looking, name five San Diego Padre relievers from the 1970s.

Go.

I'd probably put LaRoche into that Martin/Broxton/Billingsley/Kemp group that should be counted on to be starting level players.

I'll be surprised if Loney/DeWitt/Hu/Abreu/Miller/Young ever develop into starting MLB'ers. I have probably written them off.

Orenduff/Elbert/Kershaw--too early to tell I think. Orenduff needs to come back from injuries. Elbert needs improvement. Kershaw's too early to really think about.

Elbert's AA numbers are too screwy to take seriously. Unless there really is such a beast as a 3TO pitcher.

190
I decline to participate

161 162 166 Excellent suggestion but they would require refrigerated shipping. I may have to fall back on that, but I'm hoping to avoid it if at all possible. IF this even happens.

190 Rollie Fingers?

187 Yep, the Giants scored 2 runs in the 8th and 3 runs in the 9th, Correia came in the game in the bottom 6th and once they scored all the runs, he stayed in the game (plus the fact that they had played extra innings last night). Then Correia loaded the bases in the bottom of the 9th and was taken out with 2 outs, Barfield hit the slammy and then the Giants got the last out.

Billingsley and Elbert in the their age 20 seasons:

B(A+): 2.35 ERA, 92 IP, 68 H, 49 BB, 111 K, 6 HR
E(A+): 2.37 ERA, 83.2 IP, 57 H, 41 BB, 97 K, 4 HR

B(AA): 2.98 ERA, 42 IP, 32 H, 22 BB, 47 K, 1 HR
E(AA): 3.35 ERA, 40.1 IP, 24 H, 26 BB, 55 K, 8 HR

That's about as identical as two different players can be, save for the Jacksonville HR rate.

188 I think the pen will be locked tomorrow night, Schmidt will have to go 9.

Dave Freiselben.

194 For less than $25.00 bucks with shipping, 1 pound box of See's Nut and Chews.

191 Again, I don't think the players you have 'written off' in your second paragraph NEED to develop into starting MLB players to be useful.

From a roster construction perspective, would you rather have Dioner Navarro or Toby Hall as a backup playing catcher once a week? One of them costs nearly ten times the other. Having backup players that produce at above replacement-level for league minimum AND having control over those players' contracts has a great deal of value and allows resources to be allocated to other, more relevant areas of need.

194- Since you're taking the Dodgers, and he gets the Mets, you should be allowed to put up a California State quarter against his bagels.

199 Wow, good answer. I can't believe how tough this question is.

202 LOL! Point well taken.

190/199/203 - I'm not cheating, either.

Eric Show?

Even borderline prospects that make the big leagues and produce at replacement level add value to their clubs while their contracts are under club control.

True, but those parameters should not be in effect with a large market club. For a large market club, every single roster spot should be a player above replacement value if the budgeting has been properly aligned.

Tiffany might have value to a small market club that cant afford someone better, but for the Dodgers I dont think he'd be of very much use.

I fully understand that a league minimum (lets say Tiffany) #5 with a 5.00 ERA is more valuable than a 5mils 4.80 ERA pitcher. However, the goal should be to have a pitcher better than either of those scenarios. Tiffany is the lesser of two evils, but ideally you'd want neither.

Therefore, I dont think just being replacement level is enough to make the Dodgers, if you are a prospect.

197 Billingsley was actually a year younger, I just managed to confuse myself with dates. The stats are still nearly identical, even if Elbert was a year older.

190, 199, 203 This is a very hard question. I was born in 1976, but for some reason my mind keeps drifting to the old baseball cards I had, specifically the 1974 Topps set which referred to the Padres as "Washington, Nat'l League" because they were this close to leaving SD.

But, I can't seem to come up with any more names!

Did Randy Jones relieve once? :)

Did Al Hrbosky ever make it to San Diego?

Eric Show didn't debut until 1981.

205 I thought I knew someone, I checked and was wrong, I had the wrong name so I will abide to the rules and not enter.

But a hint would be one ringy dingy, two ringy dingy, etc.

I see your point Oz. If the goal was to make the best team with the least amount of money possible, then all those value adding scenarios would work.

But I'd rather have the best team, not the most efficient team.

Therefore, for a prospect to make my team, he needs to be a difference making player. Sure I'd rather have Navarro than Toby Hall, but its more bc Navarro is just a better player, not bc of the salary difference.

You are likely confusing Al Hrabosky with Al Santorini.

I thought Gossage was an obvious answer until I realized he didn't get there until the 80s.

Show was around in the 1970's? I, too, am thinking of baseball cards. Those 1976 Topps Padres are some ugly dudes.

206 How many above replacement players would be willing to play the bench? I think it's virtually impossible that a team can have above replacement value at all 25 spots. That said, replacement level isn't very high. Loney is batting .271/.346/.457 this season, which is higher than replacement level for an NL 1B (.236/.317/.438). I also believe Dewitt, Hu, and Abreu could surpass their positional replacement levels (.234/.283/.348 for SS, .244/.306/.382 for 2B).

Pulling this from a deep recess of my memory... Juan Eichelberger?

I remember this memorable 1973 baseball card of a Padres reliever.

Look at the background:

http://tinyurl.com/fsju7

Evan Longoria is a Dodger prospect?
Do all Longorias have first names that start with E-V-A?

216 Those are 2005 replacement levels, but the 2006 levels shouldn't be too different. Those numbers are from Baseball Between the Numbers, and 2006 may be somewhere on BP, but I lack the membership to find them.

213 - If you are likely can be translated as "there's a snowball's chance ..."

Here's a question: Einar Diaz's name has been added to the 40-man roster:

http://tinyurl.com/7x28d

Without anybody being removed, thus producing (unless I've miscounted) a 41-man roster. Any ideas as to the rules in cases like this? Do they have a certain amount of time to resolve the situation?

219- Sort of. He's one in the sense that JtD, Jackson, and Tiffany are ones.

He's in Tampa's system.

222 The Dodgers had 40 men on the 40 man, but 3 were on the 60-day DL, and thus don't count. We could add 2 more players to it for call ups if Ned wants, and a 3rd if Gagne is 60-day DL'd

224 Ah, okay. I had been assuming the 60-day guys were taking up space, since the number of slots still added up to 40. Thanks.

218 So what's the deal? Is that the State Pen?

Longoria's already in AA? That was quick. And his batting average is twenty points higher than his OBP? That's quite a trick.

212 Making the "best team for the least money" isn't my argument. It seems that you're arguing that the Dodgers, as a "big payroll club", should not need cheap players to fill out the back of their roster (#5 starters, bench players, etc) since they should be spending a ton of money on good players at every position, including #5 starters and utility infielders.

An issue you're not addressing is scarcity. Hypothetically, let's assuming that there's a free-agent pitcher named Ricky Vaughn that everyone knows will pitch well, with certainty, over the duration of a 4-year contract and whose talents are worth exactly $12M per year. Assume that exactly one pitcher of Mr. Vaughn's credentials becomes a free agent each offseason. You can't sign all of them because other teams are competing for their services. Therefore, you need to fill out the rest of your rotation with (1) homegrown players (2) trades, which carry a high degree of uncertainty regarding player availability and cost (3) other, lesser free agents.

I don't argue that signing all the best possible players isn't desirable, I argue that it's IMPOSSIBLE. Shoot, the Yankees have a $180M payroll and only two good starting pitchers, and they're both nearly 40 years old.

My point is that even great, expensive teams need roster filler and DL-replacements that are of at least average quality over which they can exert control WITH CERTAINTY. The only path to this is a minor league system where players are not cast aside just because they don't look like everyday players.

I think we've both made our points. I'm done now.

Ricky Vaughn would probably not have good chemistry with the older players, and he is a bit of a hothead.

Rich Folkers

226

It's not the State Pen, but wouldn't you think the photographer could have moved the trash can from the background?

Or found any background that was better?

I doubt many casting agents get head shots of actors posed next to a beatup metal trash can.

Maybe it amused me more 33 years ago.

160 - "TJ Simers... says that his articles are nonsense and are used to get people's goads."

That's exactly why I can't stand Simers. It's an easy, cheap, nasty schtick he's chosen for his life's work.

From Jim Murray to TJ Simers... tells you all you need to know about the LA Times these days.

Hope that's not overly negative, Jon, but it's Simers' negativity that I'm railing against, if that helps.

Did Juan Eichelberger ever relieve? Honestly, short of Ozzie Smith and Dave Winfield its hard to name any players from the 70s Pads.

The question in 150 is closely related to the quandry I will have if LA ever hosts the All Star Game again. As I've blathered on about dozens of times, I host an annual All Star party with food representing the host city. This year I made corned beef sandwiches with fries on them, with apparently is popular in Pittsburgh.

Anyway, the candidates for a future LA All Star party:

chili burgers
tacos
sushi
the kosher burrito
french dip

Al Santorini and Al Hrabosky were teammates on the Cardinals for a brief spell.

Darn you, Jon, this is going to be haunting me all evening! I'm an old guy and the 70s were my baseball prime. This shouldn't be so hard to figure out.

I commented in 216 that it's virtually impossible to field a team where all 25 men are above replacement level. I retract that claim. Of the 25 men on the roster at this moment, all 25 of them are above replacement level. Hendrickson and Lugo are not above replacement as a Dodger, but they are for this season including Tampa Bay. Thus it appears that JoeyP's goal in 206 has been accomplished by the current Dodgers 25 man roster.

Sheesh, Jon threw everybody a room service fastball with that question!

At least for those of us who intensely researched great moments in Dodgers-Padres history once.

235/237 - I know not everyone was a fan of "Friends," but it reminds me of the trivia contest they had and that the question that stumped them was, "What is Chandler Bing's job?"

233 - Relieved in three games.

Rich Folkers

I'm jealous!!!! (really I am..for more than>....)

If I may be permitted continue the monologue with myself in 233 - how is it that the NL is hosting 2 consecutive All Star Games, and what shall I serve next year that best represents SF?

Seared sea scallops on a bed of baby greens with a white wine reduction sauce?

230 - Ah yes, Folkers - the subject of a most amusing gaffe from SD announcer Jerry Coleman.

238 He worked with the WENUS. I like the TV Guide answer, Chanandler Bong. Ross is really funny in that episode.

238 It really seems that way for most middle relievers. I have trouble remembering the Dodgers middle relief from five years ago.

241 - Linguine in a white wine clam sauce, a la Little Joe's in North Beach.
(One of the better meals in my life.)

241 Lots of Ghirardelli chocolate.

I hope I spelled that correctly.

[242]

he's my hero just for geting away with it!

I'll be back, I'm getting some color carteges that I've needed for ever...

The All-Star game doesn't alternate any more. It just goes to whomever demonstrates an ability to blackmail its fans in to buying tickets for it.

Izzy, Robles, JtD, and Odalis were right at replacement level when they were shipped out. Carter is the only sub-replacement level player to spend any time with the team this year.

245 Picking a legendary S.F. resturant and then San Franciso chocolate, that should get you banned for a week.

"Seared sea scallops on a bed of baby greens with a white wine reduction sauce?"

How about brine-injected chicken in a cream sauce?

241

White clam chowder in bread bowls.

253

And a side of heroin.

251 If I were to be banned for a week no one would even notice.

255
I'd care!

John "The Count" Montefusco?

256 Yes, but you wouldn't notice that you cared.

250 Thanks for looking that up. Isn't that about a combined $14M worth of replacement-level?

Can $14M get you a VORP of 50 or more, if such a player is available in the market? If so, having three marginal prospects capable of filling their replacement-level output is extremely valuable if those resources are properly reallocated.

238 I just remember that somebody thought he was a "transponster", or "transpinster" something to that effect.

Monica's nickname was "Big Fat Goalie". I'll never forget that.

259- Considering we started the season with eight plus million bucks worth of parttime outfielders, it seems crazy to believe that non-star quality prospects are expendable. But what do I know. Also, at some point you've got to take in to account the sort of garbage you get back when trading non-star quality prospects. It's sort of a case of allowing the perfect to be the enemy of the good, except, really, on what planet is paying some slightly above average guy several million dollars to be the fifth outfielder perfect?

Typical San Francisco menu

Appetizer:
Golden Gate Bridge rivets, deep fried and served with a side of ranch dressing

First course:
Mixed greens from the Federal Reserve Bank. I find that $10 bills taste better than $20 bills.

Main course:
Linguini in a clam sauce prepared with extra provincialism

Dessert:
Garlice sorbet topped with human growth hormone and flaxseed oil

That came out more harshly than I meant it to. Sorry. Should have read back over.

191.

I don't think it's too early to think of Elbert. Besides the HRs, he's been unhittable, only 24 hits in about 40 innings, and he's striking out a lot of hitters.

262
Followed by a romantic drive in a Prius...

265

Except you would have to park the Prius in Daly City.

263 If it's a rebuttal to my comment, I think we're actually in agreement and making the same argument.

basically, what I'm saying in 259 is that Loney, Hendrickson-quality AAAA pitcher, Repko-level OF (all cheap), and a $14M star player are better than $14M worth of Odalis, Robles, et al). Therefore, marginal prospects are good to keep rather than trade for more expensive mediocrities.

Going back to the title of this post, what's an Ethiest? Do Ethiests have faith in Andre, or do they doubt he's for real?

268
And what's an Ethiopian?

what's a nubian?

If you want something of an answer to Jon's question about Padres relievers of the 1970s go to:
https://griddle.baseballtoaster.com/archives/475035.html

269 They exist within the Ethierial Plane.

Loney is batting .271/.346/.457 this season, which is higher than replacement level for an NL 1B (.236/.317/.438). I also believe Dewitt, Hu, and Abreu could surpass their positional replacement levels (.234/.283/.348 for SS, .244/.306/.382 for 2B).

If thats what replacement level is, then I might have to amend my argument to wanting every single player to be significantly above replacement level.

Those numbers for 1b, 2b, and SS are horrible.

TJShere, here's my suggestions for your bet:

Tamales (I can suggest a few great places)
California avocados
Farmer John!
A good California wine
I'm willing to donate my Cesar Isturis bobble-head

i wonder what a replacement level team's record would be.

The obvious Frisco-themed meal is....

Rice-a-Roni

275 A replacement level team would be around 41-121.

273 The 2003 Dodgers starting 2B went .249/.287/.338, their shortstop .251/.282/.315. Their firstbasemen cumutively weren't much better than .236/.317/.438, in fact none of them had a slugging that high.

Of course, that Dodger team had one of the weakest lineups in history.

267- It wasn't a rebuttal of your point; we definitely agree on this. But not everybody does, so going the, "any one who doesn't must be nuts," route wasn't a great idea.

274 Thanks, Marty, those are good ideas. Avocados and wine were 2 of the things I was considering. I think he'd rather have a Duaner bobblehead though. Hehehehe.

We haven't had a pooch update in a while. How's it going?

Dodger save leaders from 1970-79

Jim Brewer - 85
Charlie Hough - 59
Mike Marshall - 42
Terry Forster - 25
Pete Mikkelsen - 16
Pete Richert - 13
Mike Garman - 12
Bobby Castillo - 8
Lance Rautzhan - 7
Dave Patterson - 6

282 That's much less linky than the Padres Griddle list.

I can't make comments linky. But I think if you tried to name a bunch of relievers for any team in the 1970s, you would come up short very quickly. Relievers were a different bunch back then.

Which leads me to one of the criminally underrated baseball books of all time, "Pen Men" by Bob Cairns. It may be the funniest baseball book I've ever read.

It's definitely funnier than "Game of Shadows"

Seems like Mikkelsen threw a weird pitch of some sort. Was he another palmball guy or is my addled mind confusing him with Joe Moeller?

Pete Mikkelsen threw a palm ball.

The early 1970s Dodgers bullpen featured guys with a gimmick pitch.

Brewer - screw ball
Mikkelsen - palm ball
Wilhelm - knuckle ball
Pena - fork ball

Link to profile of Daisuke Matsuzaka, FWIW.

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1792304

From the profile: "Matsuzaka is known for his compact, fluid pitching motion, as well as his mastery of five different pitches, including a 96-mile-per-hour fastball as well as sinker, changeup, splitter, and slider."

Mastery of FIVE pitches!? Which leads to questions-- Is there a general reason why more pitchers don't add more new pitches? Do some try to learn others and can't (it couldn't be easy)? Is trying new pitches something teams frown on, especially during the season? Do pitchers generally have enough trouble with what they normally throw, so they don't experiment with more? Somebody 'splain me more...

Not long ago Fernando was quoted as offering to teach a screwball to any interested Dodger pitcher. Wonder if he's heard from any? If any tried, who knows if they could even do it, or if the results would ever be usable.

Any insights appreciated.

288.

I want Matsuzaka on the dodgers! Ok, there ends my unreasonable rant.

But anyway, I wonder, why doesn't anyone throw a screwball anymore, or throw lots of different pitches?

I think pitching coaches frown upon the screwball because they feel it hurts a pitcher's arm.

288 Tried link in my own comment; didn't work. No problems earlier. Message at bottom says database trouble, check back later.

Technology's great...when it works.

290 I read somewhere a few years back that the Dodgers didn't teach the slider--at least not at that time--bc of concerns about elbow or arm damage.

Was that right? If so, does the club still feel that way? If so, and a Dodger has a slider anyhow, do they try to discourage its use?

Scott Elbert's work is done for the night:

6.0 IP, 1 H, 0 R's, 7 BB's, 9 K's

His total Double A stats now:

46.1 IP, 25 H's, 8 HR's, 33 BB's, 64 K's, 2.91 ERA

Obviously control is something Elbert will have to continue working on, but he has plenty of time. He'll be back in Double A to start next year, so anything he accomplishes at that level now is gravy.

It is interesting to compare Elbert's numbers -- lots of K's, lots of walks, not many hits surrendered -- to the numbers of another left-handed pitching prospect who played for the Jacksonville Suns -- in 1987, and at age 23, not at Elbert's relatively young age for Double A:

140.0 IP, 100 H's, 128 BB's, 163 K's, 3.73 ERA.

Who was that lefty, you ask? Randy Johnson.

Kuo so far tonight:

2.0 IP, 2 H, 0 R's, 0 BB's, 5 K's

294
Is there no rule against jinxing a no-walker...?

Might as well get it all out of my system at once:]

Isn't a forkball pretty close to a splitter with close to same action?

What action does a palm ball have? Anyone throw a forkball or palm ball these days?

And how did Burt Hooton throw a knuckle curve? Normal curve release, knuckleball grip, or ? Seems like there may be a ML pitcher now who throws this pitch.

I probably have exceeded my 20 questions. I stop now, see what happens.

295 - given that he has thrown about 3,000 pitches through the first two innings, I don't think there is any danger of a no walk complete game tonight.

Ah, you left the 3,000 pitch part out...

A no walker, even through 5 IP, would be especially impressive against Portland, which was pretty clearly assembled by Alderson's interests and not Tower's. Let's look at the PCL walk leaders:

Portland: 566
Sacramento: 530 (this is the A's AAA team)
Tucson: 463 (lots of really good, patient prospects)
Las Vegas: 421 (lots of really good, somewhat patient prospects)

296 Rob Neyer's book of pitches and pitchers is an excellent resource.

Pretty sure Eddie Guardado throws a palm ball.

To make Portland's 566 walks even more impressive, they have 64 more than the MLB leader, the Red Sox (of course, this is to be expected somewhat with the pitchers). Jack Cust alone has 124 walks, 30 more than the MLB leader, Bonds.

[150] Ten In-n-Out Burgers.

George Kottaras broke up the no-walker in the 4th.

301, et al

Wouldn't it make sense that there'd be more walks in a minor-league season just because the quality of pitching is much, much lower than the big leagues? I'd be surprised if the pro team with the most batting BB/game weren't a minor-league squad.

301 Some team what has no chance in 2007 needs to give Cust a starting job. He has to be a somewhat useful big leaguer.

I decided not to play Jon's game b/c I couldn't think of any Padre relievers of the 70s, so I just looked them up. I won't give away what I learned, except to ask: What was the deal with Vicente Romo?

He was in the big leagues from '68-'74. Then he reappeared in 1982 with the Dodgers. pitching in 15 games, starting 6. I can still hear the way Scully pronounced his name in my head.

Did he go into witness protection?

Romo pitched in Mexico in the interim. The Dodgers signed him in 1982 to fill out the pitching staff. Vic Davalillo had gone down to Mexico too and the Dodgers dug him up there too.

I already went over this with JoeyP but Elbert's birthday on baseballcube is wrong.

the updated rosters on milb.com has his real bday.

http://tinyurl.com/jmwec

so instead of being born in May, and making this his age 21 season, he was actually born in August, which makes this his age 20 season.

okay time to go back to unpacking now.

wait one more... Kuo's awesome.

304 Minor League Splits has Portland's MLE walks at 443, which would rank 7th in the majors.

Kuo couldn't get out of the 5th inning due to pitch count, but his game wasn't too bad:
4.2 IP, 4 H, 0 R, 0 BB, 9 K, 96 pitches

okay i cant get away.

Elbert's homerun rate in AA doesn't concern me. why? Because it is so unlike his history. He hardly gave up big flies in Vero and the same in columbus. The limited about of IP in AA is skewing his homerate. If he pitches a large enough size (around 120-150), I think the homerun rate will come down and will be in line with the rest of his stops at the lower levels.

Control is an obvious issue, hes basically the left handed version of billingsley. But control can be learned and stuff can be harnessed, thats why im not really that concerned with Elbert. He doesn't need to be rushed either.

Re: 309

No walks, wow.

It's getting to the point that I'd rather have Kuo start than either Sele or Hendrickson this season.

WWSH

Looks like Kevin Brown is just as warm and friendly in retirement as he was as a player:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/baseball/mlb/08/17/bc.bbo.pitcher.turfbatt.ap/index.html

I hope the media have the right Kevin Brown this time, unlike the Eddie Johnson mess last week.

311 That's actually a typo. He walked one batter, George Kottaras.

9 Strikeouts in 5 innings?! Wow.

Kuo's game scores since becoming a starter: 34, 42, 44, 61, 63, 65, 63. Hanrahan's been even more impressive recently, at least as far as his game scores are concerned: 73, 69, 75

The 51's bench has yet again been decimated. Einar Diaz and Jeff Duncan have both been DL'd, and no one has replaced them, thus Mark Alexander batted for himself in the 6th. He was immediately replaced in the top of the 7th after striking out on 3 pitches. Robles and Langill are both on the bench, but I'm guessing Robles is being saved for the 8th or 9th, and Langill is the back up catcher.

302 That's exactly what I would like to wager but the shipping creates too much of a problem. And even if I could get them shipped I'm guessing a 2-day old Double-Double wouldn't be all that great.

Re: 312

Not to say that Brown should have pulled his gun out, but they can be useful when it comes to snakes. I had a colleague who had to kill a snake threatening his dog recently.

If I was hiking somewhere with a lot of bears, especially, grizzlies, I'd feel a lot more comfortable armed.

Of course, pulling a gun out in this sort of dispute is really uncalled for, to say the least.

WWSH

318- But with a pistol? Or is that only impressive to a no-good-at-all shooter?

I don't know if this has been brought up yet, but Fire Joe Morgan absolutely CRUSHED Bill Plaschke today. One of the more entertaining bits of reading.

http://firejoemorgan.blogspot.com/

Re: 319

Well, I'd think that with snakes at close range, a handgun would be just fine. Also just less awkward than carrying a long gun. My colleague actually killed the snake with a .22 rifle, though.

WWSH

I like to kill snakes from as far away as possible. I don't even understand the point, actually, of having cruise missiles if not to kill snakes. Or with a shovel, like a true sportsman.

320
I'm not completed unconvinced that responding that way isn't exactly what Plaschke wants.

323 Yes, but it doesn't make it any less funny. The sad thing is, while Simers lives to antagonize, Bill truly believes what he writes.

I can't believe I'm talking about Bill Plaschke. I just thought the article was funny's all. :)

Re: 320

Yeah, I hated that column too.

I've gotten into some arguments on this site over DePo vs. Colletti, and I think the sabermetric crowd can really oversell their case at times, but Plaschke's worse than useless. A column like that, with Ned pandering to Plaschke's prejudices, really makes me wish that DePo was back.

I really wonder what it would have been like last season if Grittle had been DePo's field manager. I honestly think that that would have worked out for both. DePo would have handled personnel, and Little's folksy act would have worked well in the media. Most importantly, Little is flexible. One of the striking things about Carrara's save are that I remember his previous critical comments regarding Boston's closer-by-committee experiment after Ned's Baez trade. And lo-and-behold, during the actual season, Grits ends up doing the same thing.

Whatever coherent articulated philosophy Little might have about baseball is almost certainly "old-school," like Ned and Plaschke. But the great thing about Little is that unlike Tracy, he isn't straitjacketed by his "philosophy"; he just sort of mosies along, and for the most part, it's worked this season.

WWSH

I can't believe I'm talking about Bill Plaschke

Again, unfortunately, that's exactly what he wants. 'Tis a catch-22 of the most maddening sort.

325 Grady figured it out. He's a baseball lifer, a very relaxed personality, and, by all accounts, a nice fellow. I think he realizes that a manager is there to implement the vision of the front office, and he does his best to accomodate that. It's not about him (I'm looking at you, Dusty Baker).

Plus, the guy is Hilarious.

326 There's only one way to handle this...

Snakes on a Columnist

Make it happen, D4P.

Snakes on a Columnist

Again, exactly what he wants...

Is there anything he doesn't want?

330 Oddly enough, he does not want a successful Middle East peace process.

I told you, he's horrible.

330
(Can't talk here. He's probably reading this right now...)

328 Why bring Bob Novak into this?

Bill Plaschke loved The Aristocrats. He was like our rehearsal director when dad and my brother weren't there, and my mother and my nana weren't there. I was on his show... he said it wasn't a taped show, but we, like, did a show... yeah, it was his office. But he had a bed in it, like a couch... that he called "Uncle Bill's Bed for Little People", because a couch is like a bed for little people, y'know...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0436078/quotes

334 Straddling the line, while being fall down funny. Well played, sir. Well played indeed.

KoTH! I was at Seo's 7 inning, 2 run game on Weds!! He even walked right past where I was sitting like 5 rows up before the game (I love being able to walk up an hour before game time and buy field level tix to Devil Ray games), and he even signed a couple autographs before the national anthems started. His start was pretty nice too, ran into a couple of rough innings but managed to escape with only one run given up both times...unfortunately the 2-2 tie that he left was then turned over to the Tampa Bay bullpen and professional gas can Brian Meadows. MLB.com wrap here: http://tinyurl.com/kgocr

And Ic, the only rays I got to pet were in this: http://tinyurl.com/f7j6k

I could have gotten autographs from Zobrist, possibly Crawford and Upton, and Seo (Travis Lee looked sooooo much like he was trying to ignore all the kids asking for players that weren't him to sign), but for two minor problems:

1) forgetting a pen and not having the $4 to drop for a fancy Devil Rays one, and

2) at this point I look quite a bit older than many of the players do!

anyone else see that in SF, for the dodger game tomorrow they're handing out giants hats with "beat LA" emblazoned on the side? how tacky:

http://tinyurl.com/ft35v

I see a few people noticed that Odalis Perez had a decent outing against the White Sox. I was there and was shocked at how well he did. He seemed to living off of his off-speed stuff, his fastball hit 90 3 times during the game, but was usually 87-88. The White Sox were just consistently befuddled by how slow his slow stuff would get. I don't think he had a single swinging strike where the ball went faster than 65.

337 Great. I'm going to that game, but what am I going to do with that awful cap?

Apropos of nothing, that new Samuel L. Jackson movie (the name escapes me, I think it has something to do with air travel) is currently carrying a robust 83% critic approval.

Begin packing for the apocalypse. Don't forget socks.

I hate socks

339 Bring a fabric pen and write "Can't" just above the "beat LA".

The Giants are coming into this series hot, though. I'm kinda worried.

342 It's still Halloween ugly, though.

Also, did anyone else see Orel the other night on Baseball Tonight talking about the best baseball rivalries? Naturally (it must be in his contract with ESPN), he said that the Sox-Yankees was the best, but his reasoning for why it was better than the Dodgers-Giants rivalry was pretty spot on. He said that it's because the Dodgers-Giants rivalry is pretty one-sided -- that the Giants (and their fans) are much more obsessed with beating the Dodgers than vice versa. But then, we all already knew that. My new cap tomorrow is just another example.

My quixotic battle is that the Dodgers-Giants is the greatest, because up until 2004, the AL East wasn't a rivalry so much as the Yankees owning the Sox for decades. :)

345 - I would actually say that the level of hatred for the Giants that I find in the comments here is higher than I encounter offsite. So while I agree with Orel, the comments here don't offer supporting testimony.

and the yankees-red sox rivalry hasn't historically been one-sided?

frankly, i think historically speaking, the dodgers and yankees have a pretty darn good rivalry.

"Hot" in the NL West is a relative term. The Giants were ice cold before sweeping the Padres. Maybe it's their turn to win 17 of 18.

348
Starting this season, the tally was:

Yankees - 1078 wins
Red Sox - 899 wins

348 I agree, just because of how many times they've met in the World Series. I'd love to see that happen again over the next 10 years with the Dodgers hopefully having more success than their 3-7 mark against the Yankees in the World Series since 1940.

The Yankees and Dodgers have met in ten(!) World Series since 1940, about 15% of Series played.

When I moved from New Jersey to New England in the mid-seventies, and Sox fans started going on (and on and on) about the Sox-Yankees rivalry, my first question was, "And the Yankees know about this?"

If you read Bronx Banter, you will encounter some serious hatred for the Red Sox. My one Yankees fan friend out here is really more of a Red Sox hater than anything else.

We tend to neglect the Cubs-Cardinals rivalry since both teams are rarely good at the same time, but those fans and teams really dislike each other.

352 Until the ESPN era, Yankees-Sox seemed to be the same type of "rivalry" as Dodgers-Padres.

The Padres' fans really wish someone would care about them enough to hate them.

354 Yup. During most of that era (except for '78) I think most Yankee fans considered the Orioles to be the main rivalry.

354

I care! I care!

Having lived in both the Bay Area and in SoCal like a few others here have, I also noticed that the Dodgers/Giants or LA/Bay Area rivalry was pretty much one sided. People in the Bay Area not only hate the Dodgers but the Lakers and the Rams when the Rams were in LA. Many of the Bay Area residents took it a step further and pretty much hated anything to do with SoCal including it's culture and people. Unfortunately, I got to see up close and personal what happens when people stereotype another group of people. vr, Xei

I wasn't even really aware there was a (Los Angeles) Dodger/(San Francisco) Giant rivalry until I lived up in the Bay Area for a few years...growing up I always felt our rivals were the Reds and Yankees. Which dates me maybe but still I marvel at the provincialism of places that obsess over "beat(ing) L.A." But it's fairly easy to dismiss when you recognize no one, anywhere, will ever chant "Beat S.F"--lovely city though it is--or "Beat S.D."

Ah, jealousy. Hopefully we can fan its flames this weekend and for the rest of the next...decade or so.

I can understand there being a rivalry between S.F. and L.A., but L.A. and San Diego is strange since those metropolitan areas abut each other and if it weren't for Camp Pendleton, there wouldn't be any empty space between them.

345,347 - I would agree with Orel in the context of his playing days, it was more of a rivalry in the Giants fan's mind. Dodger fan's had become complacent and just thought SF was a nice place for a weekend getaway. Last few years though, there has been a shift as Dodger fans at the stadium have become more vocal regarding the Giants (The Bonds factor is key). Bonds gives the Dodger fans one person to lash out at as the embodiment of Giant evil. Most fans don't know of all the other reasons to hate the no-cal battery chuckers, black and orange hideous colored uniforms, history of cheating in baseball (51 season - telescope and signals from the bullpen helping them with their streak to catch the Dodgers late in the season), saturating the basepaths in the 60's to slow Wills down and Bonds and the steroids!! Also, SF fans being allowed to be abusive to Dodger players by MLB and never having to forfeit. All the beer, batteries, rotten fruit and hard objects meant to injure a player all ignored by MLB in NY. Probably applauding the Giant fans in secret, hey Bud!! To all Dodger fans, we do have scoreboard on them 5 WS rings on the west coast to the Giants 0!! Take that battery chucking cheaters!!

Judging from its current, the Yankees-Red Sox morning game will take approximately 15 hours to complete.

Go get a sandwich.

But when Bonds stops playing for the Giants, are Dodgers fans going to be that worked up about visits from the Giants?

I doubt it.

Are a bunch of guys going to get liquored up before the game and say "Let's go heckle Todd Linden!"

Two big annoying guys behind us at the game Saturday were yelling "Steroids!" so much that my three-year-old turned around and yelled "Stop yelling 'steroids!'" That was interesting.

My dad, who is mystified at how intensely Bonds gets singled out given the probability of how many other players have used, also felt that based on their girth and level of inebritation, the two hecklers shouldn't have been worrying about the harmful substances other people are ingesting.

363 Strangely, no one joins in when I try to start a steroids chant for Jorge Piedra.

As someone who has attended many LA/SF games in SF, I can attest to the Giants' fans utter hatred of the Dodgers, even though I think it is less noticeable since the Giants started playing at their new ballpark. Nothing today can compare to the intensity and loudness of the "Beat LA" chants at the old Candlestick. It also didn't help that it was usually 50 degrees outside with a 20 MPH wind.

362 - The casual fan probably not! I have many more reasons as I listed in 360 for why I hate the Giants. I should have also mentioned 1962, 1982 and 1991 when they either beat us and won a playoff or knocked us from a playoff on the last day or weekend of the season. Then they had the nerve and the audacity to complain when the Dodgers enjoyed knocking the Giants out of the 93 division pennant on the last day. Matt Williams crying that Orel was clapping and enjoying it. Such a short memory, Matt!! Two years before, Will Clark was doing a moondance at first when they knocked us off!! You know what they say about payback!!

given the probability of how many other players have used

You are a ruthless dictator who slaughters innocent people

362 I agree, the game I went, to folks were just minding their business until Bonds comes out onto the on-deck circle and then if he makes out and heads back into the dugout, they go back to their garlic fries.

To me, there are no real rivalries in pro sports, in College, aside from USC/UCLA, I think Cal/UCLA has its share, and USC/Notre Dame drives some to wear Green or Cardinal.

The problem with the Lakers is that generally, the Lakers have won, even the Spurs with Duncan lost 3 out of 4 years when the Shaq/Kobe teams wents heads up against them in the playoffs.

Clippers/Lakers, it will probably take a playoff series to possibly bring that one to a good boil.

363 That surprised me too, I was sitting behind home plate in a game against the Giants in early July and this one guy across the aisle just started on Bonds anytime he had a chance, sure he drank a few beers but I just guess that some believe that it is their right to yell and scream their heads off at the ball game.

PS - Good for your daughter but I am guessing that did not stop them nor embarass the two hecklers.

363 That surprised me too, I was sitting behind home plate in a game against the Giants in early July and this one guy across the aisle just started on Bonds anytime he had a chance, sure he drank a few beers but I just guess that some believe that it is their right to yell and scream their heads off at the ball game.

PS - Good for your daughter but I am guessing that did not stop them nor embarass the two hecklers.

I find it odd that people are downplaying the Dodger-Giant rivalry as Dodger fans, while at the same time trying to say the Yankees-Dodgers is a rivalry. Of all of the Yankee fans that I've known throughout my life, the most negative feeling about the Dodgers that I've seem is complete and utter disinterest, with the rest just saying that it would have been cool if they had stayed in Brooklyn.
Seriously, do people think that there is an actual Dodger-Yankee rivalry? To me, the rivalries people seem to play up are the ones that affected them as kids. Those that started paying attention to baseball in the late 70's probably think that there is one, anyone else, probably not.
I always hated the Reds and Cardinals much more than the Yankees.

Last time I checked, Cal's big rival was a school down in Santa Clara County. Starts with an S I believe.

Cal fans tend to dislike all the other California teams, but much of the dislike of UCLA and USC stems from the fact that they usually lose to them.

Cal versus Those Guys From Unincorporated Santa Clara County is usually an matchup in most sports.

367 - I am, or my dad is?

372 - You can only imagine how torn up I was about Iheanyi Uwaezuoke.

373
The cracker jack doesn't fall too far from the box

372 Cal students love to call UCLA their little sister who copied their school fight song, jersey colors and mascot.

376

The average UCLA student also has absolutely no idea what the Cal fans mean by that also.

From my experience, UCLA's student fans, for people who have to be smart to get in to the school, are incredibly unknowledgeable sports fans in all facets. They also tend to not know of the history of any particular sport at the school with the exception of basketball.

If you went through the student section at a football game at the Rose Bowl and sampled 100 students at random and asked them who Cade McNown was you might get 40% right. If you asked them who Troy Aikman was, they would say "Oh, that guy who is on TV and played for the Cowboys."

371-I personally don't downplay the Dodger Giant rivalry, I am more talking about the people that attend the games to be seen and do not pay attention to the game on the field. Short-attention spans with people nowadays are counter-productive to this timeless game. I was at the Tuesday Billingsley game and people in our row and the row in front of us kept getting up in the middle innings, seat hopping for no apparant reason and the Dodgers had a potential rally with the bases loaded. It was driving me crazy. (A sidenote: Petco Park in SD has ushers that don't allow people back into their seats until there is a break in the action.) How are these people going to keep up our end in a rivalry when they don't know a double play from a double martini!!

I dunno, Bob. I was at Cal 1985-89. The rivalry with Stanford was intense and tinted with a smidge of class warfare (rich, small, insular private school vs. huge, diverse public university -- or so we chose to believe) but there was also an underlying spirit of camaraderie. I think this was because both schools were awful in football and hoops (Cal's hoops team just started to emerge to NIT level in the late '80s, and Stanford was still a few years away), while both were good at non-revenue sports (water polo, swimming, etc.).

So Stanford was our rival, but the teams (and especially fan bases) that we REALLY hated were those from u$c and Ucla. The arrogance of fans that only knew success was outrageous, and we liked nothing better than humbling them. To this day, the Cal win over Ucla at Harmon Gym (yea, gym - only seated 5000) to break a 26-year, 52-game streak is my greatest sports memory (followed closely by Gibby's HR). That UCLA team had some easy guys to hate too: Reggie Miller, Pooh Richardson, Don McLean, Tracy Murray.

So there are rivals and there are rivals. Cal-Stanford, in those years was about beating each other and not finishing last in the Pac-10. Beating U$C and Ucla, however, was like winning the lottery. My guess is that the Cal-Stanford rivalry is different now that both schools have had some very good years in both big revenue sports.

377

Really? I would think that one doesn't need to be a sports fan to understand the original campus-branch campus relationship between Berkeley and UCLA.

379
That's describing an inferiority complex, not a rivalry.

378 The first time I ran into that was at Staples, at first it was annoying and then you just knew you had to get back to your seat prior to the game/quarter starting.

That's an interesting observation from Tuesday's game, I know the week before when Maddux pitched, there seemed to be a lot of appreciation of what he was doing, maybe it was just more than usual and that stood out.

Ahh, Don McLean. Pride of Simi Valley High School. Along with both the good J. Weaver and the other, older, more 'medicated' J. Weaver.

378. I was referring more to 348 and 358 than your post about people downplaying the Giant rivalry and trying to play up some imagined rivalry with the Yankees.

In the 4th inning, Bronx Banter is already at 278 comments.

And they've got at least 15 innings more to go!

I've opted to watch the NESN broadcast for the Yankees-Red Sox instead of ESPN because I like to adhere to a "No Steve Phillips" policy.

382 Steve Lyons made it clear that only Cardinal fans understand the game that well.

385 The tone of the comments in Bronx Banter makes the comments here during a Dodger game seem like a garden tea party.

385 It will be a dark day if Bronx Banter beats us to "First to 1000 comments".

381 - Yeah, beating UCLA or USC was more of an achievement, but we got more emotionally involved in playing Cal.

I question some of the history given in 379, though - we hit the NIT in '88 and the NCAAs in '89. And, we went to the Gator Bowl in '86.

If we could comment most of the time by just saying "(Expletive deleted) David Ortiz" (or its San Francisco equivalent), we'd get to 1000 in no time.

389 - If I didn't create separate game threads, it wouldn't be an issue. But my Treo can't handle download more than about 500 comments, so I like to start fresh.

390
I went to UCLA from 1983-87 and I can say that I have many bad dreams involving Brad Muster.

386 Thanks Bob, didn't realize I could get NESN on DirecTV.

394
You will have to hear a lot of Jimmy Fund stories today on NESN.

But I think little kids with cancer are more enjoyable to listen to than Steve Phillips.

I think Steve Phillips causes cancer in little kids.

Boston ties it up 1-1 with two Olney's (as I understand the term)

396

That is the correct use of the term, but you don't use an apostrophe in it.
One Olney.
Two Olneys.

From my perspective, particularly attending football games, the rivalry between Stanford-Cal from 86-92 was really intense. Especially when fights occured between mascots.

397 A temporary lapse in elementary school grammar. :)

Daily aggregate comments at Dodger Thoughts
(Date given is date thread was originated)

394 August 17
408 August 16
682 August 15
774 August 14
588 August 13
465 August 11
476 August 10
1,177 August 9

395 Well, when you put it that way ...

398
Getting into a fight with The Tree shouldn't be a crime, it should be considered a public service.

Getting into a fight with the Notre Dame Leprechaun is another public service.

I believe that Traveler is college football's greatest mascot because the USC PA announcer says it EVERY time the horse comes out on the field. So it must be true!

402 - Talk about your moral superiority.

3 - 1 Yankees on a HR by Johnny "Throws Like a Girl (Based on a shirt I saw outside Fenway this year)" Damon.

403

Joe Bruin drives a Prius!

The Tree is a particularly difficult costume to move around in. Winning a fight with the Tree is as simple as tipping it over. Purposely picking a fight with the Tree, as Oski did, is not a valiant act. It's about as dumb as fighting with your little sister.

An independent political organization has placed an ad on Dodger Thoughts. This ad came about having nothing to do with my political views, one way or another. Please feel free to click on it or ignore it without comment.

And now, back to your regular programming.

407
Would you allow any political organization to place an ad on DT?

I love the commenters on Bronx Banter complaining about a Boston bias by ESPN. It seems to me every third word on ESPN is Yankee.

I believe it is ironic that the political ad is a move to organize people who don't wish to join a political party.

"Did an independent political organization put you in its Alltel 'My Circle' without your consent? Join my class action suit today!"

408 - No, but seeing as this one advocated (on its face, anyway) non-partisanship, I felt it would be okay.

411 - LOL

379 During my Cal years (73-79), in which the teams ranged from pretty good, to mediocre but with a few great players, to awful (plus we had a great QB succumb to cancer), I personally felt the rivalry with USC was a sports rivalry, while the rivalry with Stanford was more of a clan rivalry. The entire university community, including those who had no interest in sports whatsoever, got caught up in the Big Game. But the football fans wanted us to crush the Trojans. The USC games were always much fiercer, a lot more blood on the Memorial Stadium astroturf. The Stanford games had the feel of a fox hunt or a croquet tournament. It is entirely in keeping with my impression of that rivalry that the most memorable game had a wacky, cartoonish ending. I would like to know if the Big Game has ever been a decider of the Pac 8 or 10 -- I'd be surprised if it has done so in my lifetime. Wheras, when I saw Cal play the Trojans in '04, it had national implications.

Hey, in the NYY/BOS game, both Manny and Johnny Damon have hit the ball over the outfield fence. Apparently, you get points when you accomplish this feat. Do you think the Dodgers could incorporate this strategy somehow? It seems prudent.

414 - "The Stanford games had the feel of a fox hunt or a croquet tournament."

No Big Game I ever went to ever had an iota of high class to it. They may have been parochial, but they certainly weren't sophisticated.

351 I would love it if somehow a Dodger-Yankee World Series materialized again this fall. The fact that such a thing is even possible will make my day!

I get it that the Yankees fans lack any passionate sense or rivalry with the Dodgers. Other than the Mets, which is more of a commercial rivalry, the Yankees look at all National League teams as "whoever." But from the Dodger end, it's a rivalry, and beating them any year will be sweet and memorable.

Even though this is just a dream, my optimal postseason course would have us first beat the Cardinals, then the Mets, and finally the Yankees. You can substitute the Reds for one of the NL rounds, and that would be fine too.

[350] they may be close in head to head, but how about division titles?

Even though this is just a dream, my optimal postseason course would have us first beat the Cardinals, then the Mets, and finally the Yankees.

Amen.

416 Really? Boy, when I think of the Big Game, I think of 70-year old Cal alums sitting with plaid caps, and blue and cold blankets over their knees. When I think of the games against SC or UCLA, I think of PhD chemists reduced to the status of screaming barbarians. But that might've just been my worm's eye view from watching folks walk in and out of the coliseum before and after the game. I saw most of my Cal football from the branch of a tree on Cheapskate Hill.

as a cal fan, naturally i root for cal above all else, but i don't hate the other UCs, or even the other pac-10 schools, except s-ford. i was definitely rooting for UCLA against florida in the NCAA basketball championship, and for USC against texas in football (my grudge against texas for stealing the 2005 rose bowl from cal notwithstanding).

In the 1949 Big Game, Cal was undefeated in conference (and overall) play and Stanford had one conference loss (and a nonconference loss to Michigan and a nonconference tie to Santa Clara).

Cal won 33-14, but I think they may have gone to the Rose Bowl anyway if they had lost.

The Astros are the only NL team that has played in the World Series that has not played the Yankees.

417 We can party like it's 1941, 1947, 1949, 1952, 1953, 1955, 1956, 1963, 1977, 1978, or 1981.

Selective stat: in the past 51 years we're at .500 with them!

420 Absolutely. I saw the Big Game from both the Stanford and Cal bleachers, sitting in the student sections. From my perspective, everyone on both sides were screaming and passionate. It was also the only thing anyone talked about in the dorms for the month leading up to the game.

390 I question some of the history given in 379, though - we hit the NIT in '88 and the NCAAs in '89. And, we went to the Gator Bowl in '86.

Wow. I completely forgot that. I guess misery loves company, if it's imaginary company.

421 - I always root for any Pac-10 team in a non-conference contest.

420 - I guess your foxhunts are different than mine.

However old they were, I know people from Cal were throwing stuff and meancing anyone in a red shirt. And the Stanford folks had their antics as well.

417. I believe that is what Mr. Timmerman would decribe as an inferiority complex. I'm sorry, but you can't have a rivalry when one side just doesn't care. Also, my dream post-season would be beating the Giants in a one-game playoff, then taking out the Reds and the Cardinals, with a world series win against any American League team since they are all the same to me.

In 1949, Cal played seven conference games. Stanford played four.

In the NY/BOS game, the Sox are robbed when a GR double prevents a runner from scoring who should have obviously scored. Allow me to again raise my call for a rule change to all-runners-score on a GR double.

From SI.com:

"Eric Gagne probably has played his last game in a Dodgers uniform. The club isn't going to pick up his $12 million contract option, and Gagne's agent, Scott Boras, isn't going to let him sign on the cheap."

link: http://tinyurl.com/hop89

Cheapskate Hill

It's "Tightwad Hill," unless it has changed over time.

Gagne's agent, Scott Boras, isn't going to let him sign on the cheap

Gagne's agent, Scott Boras, likes larger commissions better than smaller

431 - That's just the same common sense analysis we've all been applying. Still a possibility of a one-year contract with incentives if no one else bites.

431 Good luck with that, Boras. Your client effectively hasn't pitched since 2004. Gagne's a marquee name, but so is Yogi Berra, and nobody's clamoring to sign him to play catcher.

Gagne will be lucky if he gets an incentive-laded, one-year deal for, mmmmm, maybe $4-$5 million.

Cal-Stanford has been decided by one team scoring on the last play of the game five times, which is the most of any two teams in the NCAA.

1972 - Cal 24, Stanford 21
1974 - Stanford 22, Cal 20
1982 - Cal 25, Stanford 20
1990 - Stanford 27, Cal 25
2000 - Stanford 36, Cal 30 (OT)

All the games were at Memorial Stadium.

432 I spent a few Saturdays there in 75-76. We always called it "Cheapskate Hill." What was the name of that Cal QB back then? He made those teams competitive for a change.

In other rivalries, the Cardinals lead the Cubs 4-3 in the fourth.

Carlos Marmol started for the Cubs and imploded early. Jason Marquis is on the mound for the Cardinals and primed to give up runs by the bushelful.

The people in charge of firing off the cannon at Berkeley call it "Tightwad Hill".

http://ucrc.berkeley.edu/SavetheCannon/main.htm

You know the fire that after safeties too!

I'm omitting letters and words all over the place today.

The Cal QB in 437 would have been Steve Bartkowski, no?

435 I can see the Aflac commercials now.

"Hey be careful, do you think I got that insurance?"

"What insurance is that, Eric?"

421 as a cal fan, naturally i root for cal above all else, but i don't hate the other UCs, or even the other pac-10 schools, except s-ford. i was definitely rooting for UCLA against florida in the NCAA basketball championship, and for USC against texas in football (my grudge against texas for stealing the 2005 rose bowl from cal notwithstanding).

Yeah, that's different. I will root against Stanford, USC, or UCLA under any circumstances (my most fervent wish for USC-Stanford game was a localized natural disaster of some sort - locusts would be fun). I can't stand seeing those teams win. I'll take Miami over UCLA, ND over $C. Same for Zona in hoops, and back when they were any good, U-Dub in football.

The Oregon teams, and ASU, and WSU are usually pathetic enough that it's nice to see them do well.

I think Bob's right. Inferiority complex has a lot to do with it. I'm guessing that you're much younger than I am, Vishal, so you were at CAL when they were actually good. This changes things. In my day (heh heh) we didn't have a shot at a bowl game or the NCAA tourney, so strength of schedule considerations didn't matter. Conference pride was nonsensical. The teams you hated the most were the teams you played the most. And you wanted them to do poorly no matter what.

382-I was at the Maddux game too and the people around me did seem to be more into that game. Last Tuesday, however, it was back to the same "it's about me being noticed not the team I paid to watch" perspective.
384 - I was kind of agreeing with you. I was just taking the rivalry thing from a different angle. I know the point you were trying to make.
434 - I will be surprised to see Gagne in Dodger Blue next year. Like Jon, said, if others are scared off by his injuries the last two years, Dodgers could get him for 1 year in a "Prove it year for Game Over". I see the deal with incentives as having to be in the 7-8 million range for Gagne/Boras to consider.

I root for the Pac-10 in all situations now, though it wasn't always that way. Partly this is due to having been at 3 Pac-10 schools. But mostly this is because anything that improves the prestige of the conference is good for everyone. When your Pac-10 team finally has a really good season in football but finishes 2nd, it really helps to have the conference be highly regarded nationally so that the polls and BCS seeding go well.

That should have been 435 I was referring to in my last comments!

440 That's it. I was thinking Grabowski but knew that couldn't be right. There's only room for 1 Grabowski in my sports memory.

And since we've been discussing ancient Rose Bowl type history, who knows (without looking it up) what was unique about the 1942 Rose Bowl? A hint: it was the last Rose Bowl Duke played in (losing, of course).

436 Just like the 1982 "Play" haunts Stanford fans, it's the 1990s game that grinds most Cal Fans' gears.

As I recall it (who knows any more if it's accurate), that winning drive for the red team included several fake roughing-the-passer calls and/or pass-interference calls. I think it was roughing. Stanford kept trying to lose, and the refs wouldn't let them. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. I imagine Daniel and Jon see it differently.

446 That it was played at Duke?

447 - I can describe the ending to that game in detail if you like!

448 Yup...but not so much that it was played at Duke but that it's the only one (so I have been told) not played at the Rose Bowl.

443- That should have been 435 as a reference in my last comments!
444- I do that too in all non-conference situations. I have supported the Pac-10 in bowl games, NCAA March Madness or CWS to win and get more attention out here. The West Coast vs. the East Coast Bias is what we are really fighting in the college sports.

Here's how my Pac-10 hatred works out...

I grew up an Arizona fan since my parents went there, but that fandom mostly pertains to basketball. Thus, Stanford has always been a hated one, and of course ASU gets a little themselves.

Since I went to UCLA, any game USC plays in is obviously going to garner bad vibes against them, no matter what the implications.

Otherwise, as long as other Pac-10 teams winning doesn't screw up one of my team's chances of making a postseason of some sort, I'll root for them.

[442] i actually wasn't at cal when they were good. my junior year they were 1-10 in football (2001). they hired tedford and went 7-5 the next year, but they still didn't get to a bowl game till after i graduated, and they didn't start to get decent in basketball till a couple of years ago. but yeah, i'm only 25.

i can't root too hard against SC, 'cause my dad went there.

444. Yeah, I'm only the way I described in 442 about college basketball and football. In other college sports, I guess I feel the same way as you. And in pro sports, it's even more different. There are just teams I like and teams I don't and divisional organization doesn't seem to matter (likely because it changes so often). I used to hate the Reds and Braves - now I don't care. I used to hate the Yankees, and always will. I'll always want the Niners and Raiders and Vikings to do badly.

Ah sports loyalties - such complex phenomena.

But Go Dodgers, and stuff. Who's with me?

453. Interesting. So your teams were bad, but there were people around who remembered bowl games and tourney appearances. In the late 80s, other than The Play, there were no good memories for anyone I met. Just year after year of awful (even Chuck Muncie was a bad memory). So 1-10 was just fine, if the 1 was against you know who. When it was SJSU or UOP, feh.

i used to hate the braves too, because they ALWAYS beat us in the 90s. plus they seemed like a bunch of arrogant southerners. and back then they were still in the NL west, which made it even more maddening. but now i'm totally over it.

447 I recall that game very well -- I was there in person and kept insisting to my buddies (who thought I was crazy) that Stanford would pull it out. I still insist that my faith in the team was a primary factor in them pulling out the game. I consider that win pay back and more for "The Play".

If I recall correctly, there was a penalty on the on-sides kick, then a pass interference, followed by the winning field goal. This after a touchdown with 16 seconds left and a failed two-point conversion. A big part of that game was the Cal fans storming the field when there was still time left, providing extra yardage via a delay of game penalty.

i used to hate the braves too, because they ALWAYS beat us in the 90s. plus they seemed like a bunch of arrogant southerners

Yep, yep, and yep.

I'm basically a Pac-10 homer -- whoever's winning tends to be who I follow.

Possibly this is because I grew up in the Bay Area, but didn't attend either Cal or Stanford -- so I liked either of them, depending on who was good. Then I went to college in Portland, OR... so it was fun rooting for the Ducks.

Now, here in SoCal, with my wife getting her masters at USC, I am a shameless Trojan fan.

Regardless, though, I'll generally root for any west coast team (minus the Giants and the Raiders) over an east coast team.

456 For me, it was the rednecks in the stands doing the chop that made me hate them. And Skip Carey.

The Rose Bowl didn't open until 1923. Prior to that the New Year's Day game in Pasadena was played at Tournament Park, which is around where PCC is today.

In 1990, I was at the Rose Bowl, watching UCLA lose to USC, 45-42 in a game that went back and forth. Tommy Maddox had a great game... except for throwing two interceptions that got run back for TDs. I was very depressed after that game and walked back to my apartment in Pasadena. Then I turned on the Cal-Stanford game and got more depressed. Then my brother Jim and his wife took me out to Gus's Bar-B-Q in South Pasadena and I got even more depressed because the food was terrible.

I did see Robert Reed there. He did not look well.

rednecks in the stands doing the chop that made me hate them. And Skip Carey

Yep, and yep.

461 Thanks for the memories, Bob.

{turns on gas oven}

I saw where Sean Burroughs was DFAed by Tampa Bay and I thought it was ironic considering it was the Little League World Series and as I recall, a Long Beach region team that defeated the mighty Taiwanese where Sean both pitched and hit a homer to help win the championship.

It also points out horribly San Diego has drafted over the past half decade or so. I did a quick review of drafts from 2002-2006 (Logan White era) and there are only 2 years where you could argue that the Dodger's draft was not among the top two for the division.

2002 - AZ - Chris Snyder, Lance Cormier, Dustin Nippert (5th)
S.D. - K. Greene (4th) (They also drafted Andy LaRoche but failed to sign him)
Colo - Jeff Francis (3rd)
L.A. - Broxton, Martin (would rank higher if Broxton moves to closer/starter) Loney is still prospect, Miller, Megrew, and Young are fringe right now. (T-1st)
S.F. - Cain, Correia (T-1st)

2003 - Its Los Angeles and Arizona, Billingsley, Kemp and LaRoche vs. Conor Jackson and Carlos Quentin, only Ian Stewart whose status seems stalled for Colorado brings another team into the picture. San Diego's number one pick, Tim Stauffer pitched last night in Vegas.

2004 -Again, L.A. and Arizona, Stephen Drew, L.A. with Scott Elbert, San Diego's number one pick of Matt Bush has been discussed on othe sites, Giants could have a sleeper in Jonathan Sanchez.

2005 - Not signing Hochevar, puts them behind, Arizona and Colorado, Arizona with Justin Upton and Colorado with Troy Tulowitzki are well ahead, San Diego's top pick is injured and the Dodgers have a lot sleepers with Meloan (has advanced 3 levels to AA, 6/1 K/BB ratio), Josh Bell, young 3B with power (Ogden), Steven Johnson and Scott Van Slyke. San Francisco did not pick until 4th round.

2006 - Obviously early, but the Dodgers are again near the top of the Division.

The point of this long commentary is that while the Dodgers only won one division during this time period, they never had a top ten pick until this year but with their drafts, along with Arizona (who had better draft position almost every year), are positioned to do battle for the rest of the decade.

I've learned to appreciate Skip Caray more this year. With the Braves not being particularly good this year, he's still enjoying himself.

Keep in mind that at one point, the Braves players hated the Braves announcers because they pointed out that Javy Lopez was positioning himself outside the catcher's box. A certain Mr. Maddux did not appreciate that.

This article (via Deadspin) shows us why Cardinal fans don't boo.

If you do, you get kicked out.

http://tinyurl.com/gwzhw

461 Geez, Bob, after a day like that it is a miracle you are still around. What keeps you going?

467
I've learned not to care that much anymore.

465 Bob, did you hear that commentarty where Skip Caray said that the bases are loaded again and wishes he was too.

Almost crashed my car (heard it through my XM radio)

The Brewers have played the Yankees in the World Series?

Gus' BBQ is truly awful.

470
But the Brewers weren't an NL team.

Besides, the Yankees and Brewers met in the 1981 playoffs.

Leaving out words again.

But the Brewers weren't an NL team in 1982....

My hated teams:

Giants
Yankees
Celtics
Cowbouys
Vikings
Notre Dame

I want to beat UCLA every year, but I don't hate them.

471

Yet, Gus's lives on and on and on and on.

475 They have good signage though.

I just got back from lunch at Phillipe's. Lamb dip with swiss and plenty of mustard.

mmm...

Rivalries in American sports pail in comparison to English football rivalries. This has less to do with the teams, their history or their success and more to do with cultural differences. Except for the minority, Americans have a lot more options for their entertainment dollar and tend to be less obsessive over any one particular form. In comparison the majority of the English live to work, drink, and watch football. People tie themselves to their team relishing in the highs and sulking in the lows as if the team were an extension of their own persona. It is not that the English care more about their team than Americans, but rather it is (relatively) all they care about.

From an Englishman's perspective you guys are much better off and you should enjoy your fun spirited rivalries and wish not for the obsessive ones that bring with them intolerance and hostility.

476

You can't eat neon!

The Yankees and Notre Dame are at the core of my axis of evil. I used to hate the Celtics and Cowboys, but neither has done anything lately. Age has also mellowed me, because I now look back fondly on the Lakers-Celtics rivalry and can appreciate how good the Celtics were. I suspect that Lakers fans get a lot more satisfaction over their years versus the Celtics than the Bulls fans get from Jordan's dominance since there was no single rival for them to beat each year.

I don't care about pro football anymore, yet I still hate Dallas and Minnesota.

The rivalry games this afternoon have been pretty dreary affairs.

Yankees/Cardinals - 21
Cubs/Red Sox - 6

Beating the Yankees in 1981 and the Celtics in 1985 remain the highlights of my years being a fan of the Dodgers and Lakers. Also, because the 1981 team still had many of the players of the 1977 and 1978 teams made that victory more meaningful, not sure it would have been the same if there was a lot of turnover, the Laker win came right after the 7 game loss in 1984 so it was real sweet, especially watching the pained look in Red Auerbach's face as his team lost on their home court.

I agree with 481 but I still can't fine myself rooting for the Cowboys.

As a Dodger fan, I know it's not entirely right to root for los Yanqis, but... is it really wrong to root for one of these teams to win all five games this weekend so ESPN will finally stop talking about the Yanks-Sawx?

482 Hopefully the trend of the road team thrashing the home team continues tonight.

484 They will never stop talking about them so you might as well prepare yourself for a 20 minute analysis of this series for the entire weekend.

There doesn't seem to be enough 49er hate around here as there should be...

487 - you're talking about the one's from SF and not the one's from Long Beach, right?

Now see, I could have just written two sentences about rivalries in a new thread, and I wouldn't feel like I had neglected Dodger Thoughts today.

486 - yeah, I know, but a guy can dream, right?

Hating the Bird/Ainge/Mcwhatshisname Celtics was really easy. Especially with Ainge. He was like the David Eckstein of the NBA.

487 Another case of them being really bad lately. They were also squarely in the axis of evil, but first it was difficult to root against Steve Young, and now they are just pathetic.

Since the 49ers are the laughingstock of the NFL now, nobody really bothers to hate them.

489 I figured you had enough on your plate today. And see, the kids have grown big enough that they can play on their own now.

492 - see, I had no problem rooting against Steve Young... Jerry Rice and Joe Montana was a bit more difficult

492
I found it very easy to root against Steve Young. It's true, though, that I hate them less not that they are struggling. But Joe Montana's teams were probably my most hated of all-time in any sport, followed closely by Steve Young's.

The 49ers rival the Lakers as my #2 team behind the Dodgers. It's been difficult to throw my support behind them recently, but I won't ever ditch them. In fact, I just drafted two Niners on my fantasy team.

I saw a note in the LA Times yesterday where Maddux volunteered to pitch an inning during Wednesday's blowout and according to the article, Sele pitching on back to back days sounds like it was his choice to go out there.

Again, I think winning permeates all the chemistry stuff but I have to think that all is well in Dodgerland.

Today's Understatement of the Day

http://tinyurl.com/pbvzu

This article summarizes the movie, "Deliverance," by calling it: "the film about four Atlanta businessmen who have unpleasant encounters with locals during a North Georgia canoe trip."

497
I've never fans who root for combinations of LA and SF teams. They're mutually exclusive, as far as I'm concerned.

497 Hopefully it was some classic league so you could pick up Roger Craig and Jerry Rice.

When you have the day off from work and have the chance to watch two day games, they should at least have a veneer of excitement.

I want the four hours of my life back!

478. English futbol rivalries are nothing compared to what goes on in South America. I have yet to see an English fan so obsessed that they kidnap their rival's star player (Yeah, Penarol's fans did it, but only once, Boca Juniors' fans have done it multiple times to River Plate).

502 According to the latest blog entry on Inside The Dodgers, Josh said that Jamie McCourt has given everyone the afternoon off after that afternoon ice cream social.

502
Were you at least scoring at home...?

499

That actor got a pardon because he obviously squealed.

500 - I rooted for the 49ers for a while after the Rams left Los Angeles, and even when the Rams were still here and it didn't affect them.

I also had a temporary soft spot for Al Attles once.

505 What goes on in Bob's bedroom is his own business, and I think talking about might violate the rules.

496 - I have an affinity for lefty QB's. Young and Cade McNown are my alltime favorite football players, period. Matt Leinart actually got me rooting for the Trojans the last couple of years.

499 He had one of the best lines in the movie.

I once saw The Wizard of Oz described this way:

Stranger in a foreign land commits murder; joins with three strangers to kill again.

511 That's hilarious. I just sent that to a friend who is a Wizard of Oz fanatic.

409 I love the commenters on Bronx Banter complaining about a Boston bias by ESPN. It seems to me every third word on ESPN is Yankee.

They might have a legit gripe. The other two-thirds of ESPN's words are "Red" and "Sox".

500 - Right, I get that a lot. I justify by saying "I'm not an LA guy". My dad instilled the Dodger obsession in me, and they will always be my first love. I couldn't ever really get into the Rams, since they were Anaheim by the time I started following football. I don't feel like I should be obligated to following an Orange County team over a Bay Area team, simply due to geographical logistics.

As for the Raiders, no way. Never. Not in a million years would I root for that team. Well, until they get another lefty QB, that is. ;)

I just checked Baseball Musing's continuing coverage of the NY/BOS game(s), and one of Pinto's updates is headlined: Torre Pulls Wang.

I swear I am not making this up.

501 - Frank Gore and Antonio Bryant. Sleepers du jour!

508 - I like to imagine "ssjames" is Susan Saint James. I'm having trouble deciding if that comment is in her nature.

"Baseball Musings*'*"

Or, at BP: Baseball Musings?

I have to admit, I rooted for the Raiders when Plunkett was their QB.

In the period of time when I was a kid and I didn't care too much about football, I, based on geography, considered San Diego to be my "hometown" team.

I like the Chargers some. The 49ers a little. The Raiders not really. But I'm not much of a football fan. I find it unnecessarily complicated.

You know what's fun? Compiling a 25-man team of players who are still in the league who either--

* Were traded from or left the Dodgers under controversial circumstances, or arguably should not have left.
* Nearly came to the Dodgers but didn't due to some bad decision-making or mistakes.

So far this is my favorite page:

http://www.dodgerblues.com/content/features_trades.html

Just based on that, dig the outfield of Gary Sheffield, Vladimir Guerrero, and Jim Edmonds, maybe with Todd Hollandsworth and Juan Encarnacion off the bench. ;)

Starting pitchers, of course, have to include Pedro Martinez. I would add Gary Maddux to that due to his trying to come here in 2004. Who else? Randy Johnson maybe, from when DePo's deal fell through.

Lo Duca and Piazza behind the plate, naturally.

Paul Konerko at first, Beltre at 3B, Izturis at SS?

I just found out that my old Little League made the World Series, and I am shocked at how many teams make it now, which must be the only way they could have made it.

500 They sure aren't if you grew up in the Central Valley. (Shout out to my peeps back in the 559)

523. Yolo County for life, dog.

521 - Jim Edmonds?

And I simply can't approve Sheffield and Piazza on the roster at the same time, based on the space-time continuum.

Rafael Furcal just said "thanks" via email to me.

What, no phone call?

Niners and Dodgers all the way. :) In fact, I started following both teams pretty much around the same time -- 1984ish.

525 http://www.dodgerblues.com/content/features_trades.html#edmonds

universities/sports teams i hate:

sf giants
ny yankees
stanford
la angels
texas (ut)
duke
sacramento kings
france
sf 49ers
dallas cowboys
oklahoma
utah jazz
manchester united
england

man, i could do this all day. i have a lot of hate in my sports life.

524 - Yolo County? I thought 559 ran from Modesto to the Kern-Tulare County line.

Yolo is in 916, isn't it?

Ah yes, the Valdez for Edmunds "deal". I remember now.

530. To be perfectly honest, I only lived in Yolo County when I was 10, and that was the closest I ever lived to the Dodgers.

529 - Wow, you are LA through and through, aren't ya?

Not sure which category "England" and "France" fall into though...

Not sure which category "England" and "France" fall into though...

I'm betting soccer, or rugby.

Wow, I never knew Penarol was from Saipan!

529 - My top 3 hated teams is the same as yours, though perhaps in a different order.

534 - I was thinking more in the lines of:

universities/sports teams i hate:

To alleviate confusion, post 532 is not only in response to post 530, but is also confirming that the area code in Yolo County is 530. Interesting coincidence.

533, 534 I would include France in hatred around Cycling as well.

529 - Notre Dame is conspicuously absent though. What gives?

529. That's a lot like me, mine is primarily concentrated in the college ranks, but also sprinkled with pro teams:

Boston College
Alabama
LSU
Florida
Tennessee
Florida St.
Duke
North Carolina
Maryland
Syracuse
The Ohio State University
Texas
Oklahoma
Nebraska
University of Washington
Notre Dame

MLB
Cardinals
Reds
Braves

NBA
Kings
Bulls
Knicks
Lakers

NFL
Patriots
Buccaneers

Soccer
Nacional
The entire EPL
AC Milan
Real Madrid
Barcelona
Every European National Team except for Spain
and #1 on the List:
Australia

I used to really hate Ohio State and I got a big kick out of Woody Hayes comitting professional suicide. But it's hard to hate them now.

535. Close, but not quite.

team england and team france were for soccer. and for the olympics too, i guess.

[541] that reminds me, the florida schools, notre dame, and ole miss are on my list. but they're more like "on notice" than "dead to me".

i also hate the pats, though.

you hate syracuse? aww. :/

Yolo County? I thought 559 ran from Modesto to the Kern-Tulare County line.

shout out to Porterville! (I have family there)

544. Went to Georgetown, I'm required to hate Syracuse, although not as much as other Big East schools that I forgot, like Villanova, Pittsburgh, and UConn.

529 - Wow, you are LA through and through, aren't ya?

born and raised :)

Many people aren't fond of ND now, but anyone between the ages of 27 and 35 probably was watching ND football at a highly impressionable part of their life when that era that included Lou Holtz, Tim Brown, Chris Zorich, and Rocket Ismail along with all of those amazing RBs from the late 80s early 90s where there.

I know when I was in 5th grade, Tim Brown could do no wrong in my eyes, even as a kid growing up in Houston who watched Brown play A&M in the Cotton Bowl.

but now as a devout USC fan, I am supposed to dislike ND. I do, but it is still a weird dislike. Nothing like the lifelong hatred of the SF giants or KC Chiefs (as a raider fan).

They were just very special at a time when I was looking for something to begin following.

Vishal seems like such a nice guy. And yet he just overflows with hate :)

Kenosha WI man recreates Smothers Brothers routine:

http://www.jsonline.com/watch/?watch=1&date=8/18/2006&id=10183

548 - I'm the other way. I used to have much more hostility directed towards ND (and Duke), but I'm now much more tolerant.

529 - Actually, Vishal, I pretty much hate very team you do (well, hate may be too strong of a word for me). Except I'm indifferent to soccer and don't have much of a hatred for Oklahoma.

I will never, ever stop hating ND.

548. Oh, that's when I came of age in sports. I remember them getting lucky to beat Miami at home in 88 and refusing to play them in a rematch in a bowl game and instead going for the easier game against Major Harris and West Virginia. That Cotton Bowl against A&M was my first exposure to them and I remember Brown being the biggest baby about someone grabbing his precious towel.

[549] it's only with regard to sports, thankfully. sport brings out the latent tribalism in me i guess.

554. Yeah, I was trying to recall the "towel" incident. Is my mind just making up events, or did he get ejected at the end of that game for an altercation after the "towel" incident?

I don't passionately dislike any college teams really anymore. UCLA (my team) doesn't have any other major rivalries other than SC in football, and there isn't enough roster continuity in basketball to really summon the hate. It was easy to hate the old Hurley/Laettner Duke teams because they were around for 4 years. Now you really have to dislike the school, and I just can't pull that one off.

Jon, have you ever wrote of, or at least thought about the significance of these comments threads? It is fascinating to watch the discussion weave from one topic to the next. Some times your corresponding post to DT carries the discussion throughout, other times it is lost in the left turns and right that the discussion naturally takes before we reach our first 50 posts.

It is very cool to go back and look at old threads. They are almost like daily time capsules.

Anyhow, I digress.

558 - I often find my post is irrelevant by comment #1.

I do enjoy the comments, though. I love the meanderings, which is why I don't mind that we don't have threaded comments.

556. I honestly don't remember if he got ejected, I could probably look it up, but I am heading out the door right now.

Bronx Banter has opened a new thread with their comments in the previous thread at 960.

Dodger Thoughts. Come for the game, stay for the comments.

That has a familiar ring to it....say where are those t-shirts we were supposed to get?

I love how there's no rhyme or reason to the hatred. Teams/Schools are chosen at random for reasons known only to the particular commenters, and sometimes they likely don't know why. You can almost picture them shaking a threatening fist at some unknown enemy.

"...Middle Tennessee State... BUMPUSES!"

563 A lot of that comes from the NCAA tournament. Hence the irrational hatred for teams like Siena.

I did a search and I don't believe Tim Brown was ejected for the towel incidient. At least no mention of it. It started a brawl however.

http://bluegraysky.blogspot.com/2005_01_01_bluegraysky_archive.html

562 - Still waiting for a design. I have a concept - a couple of commenters or their signficant others have taken a shot at it but I think found my desires hard to satisfy. If anyone's interested in taking a shot, though, let me know.

564 - Urgh ... Siena.

562 - I'd love to have official (or unofficial) Dodger Thoughts t-shirts. Wasn't that supposed to happen a long time ago? All I have is my "Ghame Over" Yhency t-shirt.

Personally, I'd love to have a t-shirt that says "Dodger Thoughts, like TiVo, is one of those things you can completely do without until you start using it." My one and only claim to fame.

567 - repeating phrases is what I get for taking 5 minutes to get a drink between sentences.

I'm seeing a Rodin statue with a glove on his hand and a Dodger cap on his head....

say where are those t-shirts we were supposed to get?

that would be sweet!.

569 - You're right about the Thinker part, wrong about the part that might come close to copyright infringement.

If anyone's interested in taking a shot, though, let me know.

I'm taking a shot of jimadores,with squirt :o)(crushed ice)

https://dodgerthoughts.baseballtoaster.com/archives/183044.html

The original slogan winner, "Thinking or Think outside the boxscore," I eliminated because it was too close to the name of another blog.

So it became, "Where the game is never over," which is a little more poignant now with Gagne out.

A Dodger blog with mustard or A Dodger blog with relish were also good choices.

573 - I still like my testimonial idea =)

566, etc -- not to shill tremendously, but I've got a friend with a screenprinting business who has really good rates. A simple design without tons of colors should be quite cheap.

575 - Shill all you want - I need the design first, though.

A t-shirt for the Griddle would have to blend together my two most popular topics:

1) Harold Reynolds
2) The planet Pluto

A slogan in Korean would help too.

How about a "vote for pedro" type shirt simple but to the point no?

The biggest player in little league world series history is on ESPN2 right now.

Saudi Arabia's 1st basemen is 6'8 256# and wears a size 19 shoe. He's bigger than Shaq was at age 13.

They also have another player thats 6'3 190# and is 12 yrs old.

573 - Wow, it's already been over a year since that contest...

those guys are not 12.IMO.

577
It'd probably be easier to come up with a slogan that combines Harold Reynolds and Uranus...

582 - I knew there was a joke in there somewhere, and D4P knocked it out of the park.

583
Looks like it was a walk-off. Thread over.

Sabermatric challenged = me would be a cool shirt for me, but there's alot of sabermatric's DTer's here.

584 - Guess I should've stuck with the safer "LOL".

585

like Jon says all points of view are welcomed.

Here is my stab at a basic t-shirt:

http://ilab.cs.byu.edu/zappala/t-shirts/dodgerthoughts.png

T-Shirts, mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... Close but yet so far away. vr, Xei

Perhaps the most obvious t-shirt design involves a photo of Danica and a "Do the Math"-related slogan

588

nice but I'd go with white & blue lettering.

591 Look at the logo at the top of this page.

585 Not to worry, it's pretty much pluralistic society in the comments. Live-and-let-live, now with 43.2% less blind rage!

566 Jon, I could always give the wardrobe design a shot. You're pretty discerning, but I have absolutely no fear of abject failure. That, and a heck of a lot of hours in design studio, have to count for something.

you can send info to dave5613_at_gmail dot_com

546 Heh, I went to Seton Hall, so my list used to include Georgetown, but not so much since the original Thompson left.

Hate's a strong word. Here are the teams that are dead to me.

Red Sox
Braves
St. Johns
Michigan
North Carolina
Cowboys
Raiders
Celtics
Red Sox (because they can't be dead enough for me)

588 - That's frankly not bad. But my wife will insist on the Thinker image being incorporated. 593, take note :)

I always knew that DXMachina was really Dick Vitale.

Dead to me:
Texas A&M
Kentucky
Oklahoma
The S.E.C.
Florida State
Miami
Baylor

On notice:
UCLA
Florida
Memphis
New Mexico

here's my YOU'RE SOOO DEAD TO ME

The San Francisco Giants

596 Hah! I once spent a very enjoyable two hours with my buddies sitting directly behind the University of Detroit's bench needling Vitale. His face really turns some impressive shade of red when he's upset (SHU was crushing Detroit that night). Boy, I miss the days of first come, first serve seating at college basketball games.

I didn't find out Vitale was a fellow alumnus until after he got out of coaching. (Which was a wise move on his part. He was headed for stroke city.)

I check in and I get to be 600? Cool...

Stroke City, baby! We're talking ICU here! We're talking serious cerebral hermorrhage time! Stroke city!

Jon, I was not aware of the Thinker requirement. How are these:

http://ilab.cs.byu.edu/zappala/t-shirts/dodgerthoughts-thinker1.png
http://ilab.cs.byu.edu/zappala/t-shirts/dodgerthoughts-thinker2.png
http://ilab.cs.byu.edu/zappala/t-shirts/dodgerthoughts-thinker3.png

601 PTA, Baybee!

(Prime time apoplectic)

If there is anyone on my dead to me list, it would be Dick Vitale. He is my Frank Robinson.

Hawai'i has its share of 49er fans; in fact, the morning paper just did a poll and learned that of the 500 or so people who bothered to take it, the Niners got about 55%. The rest seemed to be split between Raiders and Rams fans, as I recall. You gotta remember that the West Coast teams are as close as we get to pro football.

The Dodgers used to be the baseball team, but their biggest booster passed away and his restaurants were sold; now it's Giants baseball on the radio on weekends instead of Dodgers.

The only college team I despise is ASU, but that's natural for a UofA alum. I don't like the Raiders in the pros. Baseball I'd say I dislike the Giants first with the Yankees a close second. I used to like the Red Sox, but ESPN's incessant bleating about them has driven me away.

602 - I'll show my marketing director when I get home :)

Game thread open

Abject hatred and loathing:
SF Giants
Anaheim Angels of Anaheim
SF 49ers
San Antonio Spurs
Colorado Avalanche
Notre Dame
All college football teams from Florida
Stanfurd

Used to hate, now just disdain:
All NY sports teams
Atlanta Braves
Boston Celtics
Nebraska

Used to hate, now kinda like:
Chicago Bulls
Seattle Supersonics
Edmonton Oilers

I used to like Vitale, but I got tired of him constantly defending Jim Harrick every time Harrick wrecked another program.

Man, you guys really knocked this thread out of the park. One of the bestest threads I've read in a while. It was the Ethiest.