Baseball Toaster Dodger Thoughts
Jon Weisman's outlet
for dealing psychologically
with the Los Angeles Dodgers
and baseball.
Frozen Toast
Google Search
Dodger Thoughts

02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

09  08  07 
About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Ethie, Ethier, Ethiest
2006-08-17 09:40
by Jon Weisman

The nation learns about Andre Ethier. At least, the nation:

How does a guy post better numbers in the major leagues than he did in the minors? How does a guy acquired in a giveaway trade end up carrying the offense of a postseason contender?

The guy in question is left fielder Andre Ethier, and he's one of the nicest mysteries a team could have right now.

Acquired last winter when the Los Angeles Dodgers decided to make Milton Bradley someone else's problem, and called up on May 2 only when the Dodgers couldn't seem to keep anybody healthy, Ethier has not only become a leading candidate for Rookie of the Year, but also, arguably, the team's top offensive player.

In 321 plate appearances, Ethier, 24, has an on-base percentage of .383 and a slugging percentage of .545. Among players with 300 plate appearances, his .928 on-base plus slugging percentage (OPS) is 13th in the NL, leads the Dodgers (including the more renowned Nomar Garciaparra) and outdistances all other rookies in the league by nearly 100 points.

"He's been outstanding since the day he came through the door," Dodgers manager Grady Little said.

There's no mystery about what Ethier's strengths are. People have been admiring his swing and work habits since the Oakland A's drafted him out of Arizona State. Teammate Olmedo Saenz, the best bat off the Dodger bench, said that Ethier has "great coverage of home plate."

What's confounding is how Ethier went from an .882 OPS for Midland in the AA Texas League last year to an even higher OPS two levels above. ...

Also on is John Donovan's current all-rookie team, which features Ethier in the outfield, Takashi Saito and Jonathan Broxton in the bullpen behind Boston's Jonathan Papelbon and Russell Martin as a backup catcher to Seattle's Kenji Johjima.

* * *

"I don't know. We're going to get the radio talk show to take calls, do a survey and whatever they want me to do I'll do it."

- Little, on how he plans to deal with questions about the Dodger starting rotation (Allison Ann-Otto, Press-Enterprise)

What can I say? The man makes me laugh.

* * *

Update: Dodger farmhands Scott Elbert and Clayton Kershaw are Nos. 1 and 2 on Kevin Goldstein's list of left-handed pitching prospects in the minors at Baseball Prospectus today.

Comments (610)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2006-08-17 09:46:58
1.   Bob Timmermann
That piece was most ethie.
2006-08-17 09:49:02
2.   Suffering Bruin
Buyback days. Teachers know what buyback days are. They mean... school is starting soon. Summer is fast becoming my favorite time of the year, ever.

Grittle is a blast, IMHO. I don't know if he's been getting criticized in the threads--I've got some catching up to do on this site--but I like having him as Dodger manager. My friend will say it's only because I'm comparing him to the previous manager and he may have a point.

2006-08-17 09:52:22
3.   the OZ
The Ethiest line in the piece was the one about the "robust brew of...stats".

Mmm, brew...Mmm, stats...

2006-08-17 09:54:29
4.   Jon Weisman
2 - As someone said in the comments recently, the fact that Little has escaped any kind of consistent criticism on this site speaks volumes for him.

When I make cursory glances at other message boards, I have seen him criticized harshly, though.

2006-08-17 09:54:52
5.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
3 - Are stats an ale or a lager?
2006-08-17 09:55:12
6.   Dark Horse
Oh, there's loads to love about Grittle. As has been noted here before, he's flexible in ways that uh, other Dodger managers of recent vintage were not. Plus he's hiliarious. The recent remarks about Maddux--"Well, you've got to give credit to Rick Honeycut for turning him around"--are my current fave. Plus he doesn't throw his own players under the bus. Really, I'm happy with him and I don't think I'm alone.
2006-08-17 09:55:54
7.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
4 - Criticized on what grounds?
2006-08-17 09:57:13
8.   Greg Brock
Grady is HI-larious. What's not to like?
2006-08-17 09:57:18
9.   regfairfield
I can only think of five or six truly boneheaded things Grady has done this year.

This immediately vaults him to managerial excellence.

2006-08-17 10:00:10
10.   Dark Horse
9-I'd say that's fair. Really when you consider the sheer number of opportunities managers have to be boneheaded, a handful per season is amply permissible.

Just so long as, uh, they don't happen in the late innings of the league championship series or anything like that...

2006-08-17 10:02:26
11.   Jon Weisman
7 - Usual things - lineups, pitching changes, pinch-hitting decisions.
2006-08-17 10:03:41
12.   the OZ
5 Traditional counting stats like RBI and Batting Average are light and refreshing, like a lager. More formulaic rate stats like OBP, SLG, and OPS are richer, ranging from amber to brown ale.

VORP is a stout.

2006-08-17 10:05:53
13.   Jon Weisman
Update above on Kershaw and Elbert.
2006-08-17 10:07:37
14.   JeffinTokyo
From afar, the things I like about Grittle include: he doesn't take himself too seriously, he doesn't take credit for success, he's not afraid to put players in position to fail (i.e. he gave the youngsters a chance), and most importantly, he does not ask and answer his own questions.
2006-08-17 10:08:25
15.   DXMachina
Every manager can be criticized for something, and some managers can be criticized for a lot of things [glances towards Pittsburgh], but I'm not sure any non-hypothetical manager could've done a better job with this team than Grady has.
2006-08-17 10:09:38
16.   Bluebleeder87
and Russell Martin as a backup catcher to Seattle's Kenji Johjima.

I'm sure most DT'ers agree that Kenji Johjima in not a rookie.

2006-08-17 10:10:14
17.   Jon Weisman
12 - LOL
2006-08-17 10:11:34
18.   JeffinTokyo
16. Ttrue, but neither was Nomo and neither is Saito. We can't have it both ways.
2006-08-17 10:12:17
19.   DXMachina
16 Nor Saito, either.
2006-08-17 10:12:43
20.   Greg Brock
12 Very nicely done. Cheers.
2006-08-17 10:12:50
21.   regfairfield
16 But he is a stud.
2006-08-17 10:13:20
22.   King of the Hobos
The Los Angeles Dodgers are looking for a left-handed-hitting reserve such as Gload to replace Ricky Ledee, whom the New York Mets claimed on waivers Aug. 9.

That was in the Chicago Tribune today. I have no idea if it's true or if the front office has really soured on Loney as Ledee's replacement, so interpret it as you want.

2006-08-17 10:13:45
23.   D4P
Dodger farmhands Scott Elbert and Clayton Kershaw are Nos. 1 and 2 on Kevin Goldstein's list of left-handed pitching prospects in the minors

Combine that with the 8th-best lefthander in the American League, and, well, wow...just wow...

2006-08-17 10:14:02
24.   Jon Weisman
16 - I'm fine calling him a rookie. Hard to complain when Saito's on there.
2006-08-17 10:14:18
25.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
12 - Mmmm.
2006-08-17 10:18:58
26.   Jon Weisman
22 - I give it a big "whatever." The Dodgers are short on left-handed bats, so they could still be looking for another one even assuming they still like Loney. But I'll not hold my breath.
2006-08-17 10:19:17
27.   regfairfield
Speaking of Donovan's article, who wants to join my crusade to rid the world of catcher ERA?
2006-08-17 10:19:18
28.   DXMachina
22 I can't believe that the front office has soured on Loney. It may just be a Trib reporter who doesn't get why the Dodgers would keep Loney over Ledee speculating.
2006-08-17 10:21:00
29.   regfairfield
28 I can't believe Ned would want Gload and not Ledee.
2006-08-17 10:22:53
30.   Bob Timmermann
I think to mix things up, we should spell the player's names as Saitoh and Jojima.
2006-08-17 10:24:15
31.   Bluebleeder87
16 But he is a stud.

haven't seen much of him but agreed.

2006-08-17 10:24:51
32.   Midwest Blue
Reprint from previous thread:
Just curious: If DT posters got to vote for one free agent pitcher to acquire in the off-season, Who would it be? Zito? Schmidt? Matsuzaka? Somebody else?
2006-08-17 10:26:11
33.   DXMachina
29 There's that, too.

Loney's OPS for August is 1.049. Nobody could get sour about that.

2006-08-17 10:26:15
34.   Jon Weisman
27 - I'll be a footsoldier.
2006-08-17 10:26:56
35.   savetheblues
93,94,95 from the last thread.
Reg, as an avid reader of the former Dodgermath, I pretty much have respect for whatever you have to say. And I agree with your order of the pitchers to be wanted.
Zito has had some great BABIP numbers, never abover .300 etc, but other thank knuckleballers this is supposed to be due to luck right? Do you think that because of the severe break of his curve and its slow speed, he induces more weak contact leading to that low BABIP. I know peripheral numbers aren't as important when a players career BABIP numbers are low, but the utter weakness of his fastball/change scares me--the second his curve starts to decline, his time as a productive starter will be over. And I wouldn't mine signing him either, but only for 8-9 mil a year. IMO he's not even as good as Penny, just living off the CY reputation.
Also I think his lack of injury can be attributed to his low stress delivery with low stress(read slow) pitches. If you're throwing 84-85, it's not surprising that you may not be as sore.
2006-08-17 10:28:57
36.   savetheblues
And I will join that battle anyday, I was reading an article linked from Buster Olney's blog about how Johjima has been terrible defensively this year because all the Mariners pitchers ERA are higher with thim than with his backup. When will people start believing in sample size. Otherwise, Johjima is rated as an average defensive catcher by most advanced metrics.
2006-08-17 10:29:06
37.   D4P
Speaking of Donovan's article, who wants to join my crusade to rid the world of catcher ERA?

Is there no systematic variation in catcher ERA that cannot be explained by non-catcher-related factors...?

2006-08-17 10:29:40
38.   JeffinTokyo
I'm pretty sure Matsuzaka needs one more year to be a free agent. I think it will take a posting to get him. Either way, I would go after him. He has proved himself to be extremely durable in Japan. Plus, if he was on the Dodgers, I could at least watch every fifth game live on NHK.
2006-08-17 10:30:32
39.   regfairfield
Fantasy baseball question:

In my league, I'm allowed to keep four rookies. Without getting into too much detail about the keeper rules, if I keep a guy, I have the opportunity to hold onto him forever. There are six players I have that are worth keeping: Johjima, Billingsley, Broxton, Andy Marte, Jeremy Sowers, and Shin Soo Choo. Since the trade deadline is approaching, I want to deal at least one of the guys I can't keep.

Johjima is the only one I'm really sure about not trading since I can't lose his bat this year. The other five are up for grabs. Which three would you hold on to?

2006-08-17 10:33:30
40.   Jon Weisman
I can't say I haven't wondered how Hendrickson would do with Martin catching him instead of Hall. But I also can't say I've expected the results to be much different.
2006-08-17 10:35:46
41.   Icaros
Extra Innings and Gameday Audio are working again!

Moral: Don't let crazy drunk girls into your apartment because one of them will kick your cable splitter in such a way that every channel you own comes in fine except for the baseball games you paid $160 for.

Now back to my hermitage.

2006-08-17 10:36:46
42.   regfairfield
35 Correct. The theory on Zito is that his curve ball is so good, it has the same effect on balls in play as a knuckleball.

I'm no expert on how things like breaking pitches decline as a pitcher gets older, so I can't comment on that either way.

Right now, the Dodgers stacked farm system and large budget gives them the ability to overpay free agents, since the budget is pretty clear after 2007 and the departing players can be replaced on the cheap. Because of this, I have no problem giving Zito more than he deserves, though if it starts getting in to the 14-15 million per year range, I'd back out.

Something like five years, sixty million is overpaying, but I'd be okay with it.

2006-08-17 10:37:11
43.   Bluebleeder87

i'd bet on the younger, but I've heard Matsuzaka has thrown a ton of pithes in Japan, I'd be happy with either Matsuzaka or Zito.

ps can you imagine next year (pitching staff) wow.

2006-08-17 10:37:17
44.   JeffinTokyo
Speaking of Hendrickson, he would be the one I would send down when Elmer comes back. As the 5th starter, stretch will not get a sniff in the post season. 12 pitchers are not needed when you are down to a 4-man rotation. In fact, a case could be made for 10 pitchers.
2006-08-17 10:38:06
45.   the OZ
39 Easy. Hold Broxton, Billingsley, Johjima. You need the catcher for now, and Broxton has too much closer potential in the next few years. Assuming you have to bid/"pay" for players, in a world where the JJ Putzes of the world go for $8 and up, the Ox is a keeper for sure. Billingsley has a lot of long-term value as a cheap, potentially very effective starter; I wouldn't give that up.
2006-08-17 10:38:11
46.   Bob Timmermann
I would be shocked if Seibu didn't post Matsuzaka. They would want the money.

Despite being in first place and despite being owned by one of Japan's largest corporations, Seibu still sold the naming rights to its stadium, so it's now the Invoice Seibu Dome, and they almost never sell out.

A lot of that is because although they are nominally a Tokyo area team, they play in an area that's about as easy to get to as Colton on a Friday night on a holiday weekend. (Flashbacking to a really bad traffic experience here.) There are direct trains from Tokyo to the Seibu Dome, but I was never able to get one and ended up having to change trains twice. Of course, it's the Seibu train that takes you to the Seibu Dome.

Oh, and the Dome isn't closed on the sides either.

2006-08-17 10:39:16
47.   savetheblues
Pitcher's are so hard to predict and sample sizes between different catchers would be so small that it would be nearly impossible to differentiate, I think.
Also, from a non-numbers point of view, very few catchers actually select pitches. Other than that, how can a catcher affect pitcher's ERA? The only thing I can think of is certain catchers block balls better in the dirt, giving pitchers more confidence to aim low in the zone.
2006-08-17 10:39:35
48.   bhsportsguy
What helps Grady is that Los Angeles is not Boston and Dodger fans don't come close to Red Sox Nation in its obsession about every little move.

I am sure a comment like that in the Boston Globe would have caused a meltdown in the Tri-state area while to me, its just something that makes me smile.

After years of the Mechanical Man and prior to that, a burned out Davey Johnson, Grady is really refreshing like an ice cold glass of lemonade.

And I knew this year was going to be different once I heard Grady doing Jiffy Lube commercials.

2006-08-17 10:40:58
49.   bhsportsguy
41 I appreciate you support of the team but are having crazy drunk girls in your apartment ever a bad idea? Maybe age makes me forget the downside of that scenario.
2006-08-17 10:43:58
50.   savetheblues
I say Billingsley, Johjima, and Broxton or Marte. Sowers is playing out of his mind right now, beware the finesse lefty(Zach Duke) and remember that it's fantasy, so k's matter just as much as ERA. Broxton's value is all in how soon you think he will be a "closer."
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2006-08-17 10:46:41
51.   regfairfield
With regards to the fantasy question, I meant three players in addition to Johjima.

Choo is the one I'm the most torn about. I don't think he's going to be a superstar big leaguer, but his speed means he could be a fantasy stud.

With this in mind, I'll probably look to deal Sowers.

2006-08-17 10:47:14
52.   DXMachina
49 I was just going to ask the same question. Crazy drunk girls in an apartment are like the exact opposite of snakes on a plane.
2006-08-17 10:48:37
53.   Midwest Blue
41 I'm curious
a) how you were able to find out the problem was with the splitter,
b) how you were able to pinpoint that a crazy, drunk girl had kicked the splitter, and
c)when is your next party?
2006-08-17 10:51:16
54.   Jon Weisman
52 - Snakes on a Plane II: Crazy Drunk Snakes!
2006-08-17 10:51:52
55.   Robert Daeley
49 While on the surface this would seem to be a grand idea, the truth of the matter is that crazy drunk people (no matter what gender) eventually sober up, but they don't "sane up," if you know what I mean. And then you're stuck with crazy sober people and no baseball games you paid $160 for. ;)
2006-08-17 10:53:14
56.   regfairfield
47 I fully agree with that. Things like calling the game and framing pitches probably do have some effect, they just get lost in the natural flucations that pitchers make every year.
2006-08-17 10:53:15
57.   savetheblues
Would the movie snakes on a plane be better if it was snakes on a plane full of drunk crazy girls?
2006-08-17 10:54:35
58.   Disabled List
MLB Extra Innings Package: $160
New Cable Splitter: $3.99
Crazy Drunk Girls in Your Apartment: Priceless
2006-08-17 10:54:49
59.   s choir
32 I'd definitely make a run at Matsuzaka. The only question for me is, how much $$$ is he worth? The Yankees and Mariners will probably pull out all the stops for him. I'm thinking $25m just for the rights. And then you still have to sign the guy. Who knows what that will take, especially considering Boras is his agent.
2006-08-17 10:55:58
60.   Humma Kavula
54 Nobody ever gets tired of all these [insert profanity] crazy, drunk girls in this [insert profanity] apartment.
2006-08-17 10:57:35
61.   bhsportsguy
52 I would guess that if you listed things people were scard of, flying and snakes would make the top ten if not the top 5.
2006-08-17 10:58:51
62.   s choir
60 Hey, no discussing politics.
2006-08-17 11:00:52
63.   the OZ
Regarding snakes on planes, you can go to some website and a recording of Sam Jackson will call your friends' phones and, um, strongly encourage them to go watch "Snakes on a Plane" with you.

I got one of these calls from my buddy Jeff. It was quite amusing. One giant leap for viral marketing!

2006-08-17 11:01:48
64.   Bluebleeder87
And I knew this year was going to be different once I heard Grady doing Jiffy Lube commercials.

combine Jiffy Lube & Grady's voice in Los Angeles! (priceless)

2006-08-17 11:02:33
65.   Humma Kavula
62 I was wondering if that would get me in trouble.

I guess I'll find out when my account gets deleted.

2006-08-17 11:02:52
66.   Jerry
Jon, just curious--when did you interview Ethier, Little, et al? Does give you a press pass to certain games?
2006-08-17 11:03:09
67.   Icaros
No, I mean crazy.

One in particular, banging her head on the hardwood floor, embracing a stereo speaker as if it was one of those full body pillows (legs wrapped around it and everything), forcing me to play "November Rain" repeatedly at full volume, smoking cigarettes (what a waste!) in my apartment.

The next morning I found a half empty can of Coors Light in the freezer, which is a scenario wrong on more levels that I care to get into.

The highlight was when she had to be forcibly restrained from taking a fully-clothed bath in the tub I hadn't cleaned in about two months (I cleaned it yesterday, just in case.)

If any of you think that sounds like fun we can trade anytime, and I'll spend a nice quiet evening with your wife (and even your kids, if they're not demonspawn).

2006-08-17 11:03:22
68.   the OZ
61 The sequel will be "Public Speaking on a Plane". Or maybe "Relationship Commitment on a Submarine".
2006-08-17 11:06:31
69.   Bob Timmermann

LOL + Danny Thomas coffee spit take!

2006-08-17 11:06:54
70.   Jon Weisman
66 - I interviewed them Friday before the game. I got a press pass this year.

68 - DePodesta, Sasha Cohen and Plaschke on a Plane

2006-08-17 11:12:47
71.   savetheblues
70. Can there only be 2 parachutes?(Guess who doesn't get one...)
2006-08-17 11:14:09
72.   Bluebleeder87

wild guess...(plaschke)

2006-08-17 11:16:00
73.   DXMachina
68 Vinyl siding salemen on a plane.
2006-08-17 11:16:14
74.   bhsportsguy
70 So Jon, what's it like to be in the same room with Bill Plaschke?

As a disclaimer, I went to an event at the UCLA Book Festival last year and saw Plaschke interview Frank Deford, who had just written a book about Christy Mathewson and John McGraw. Plaschke took time to blast Bonds, steroids, Depodesta (Moneyball), etc.

So I have actually basked in the presence of Plaschke, I also saw and heard T.C. Boyle, Carrie Fisher and Eric Idle, all of them were much more entertaining than Bill.

2006-08-17 11:20:35
75.   savetheblues
I have had the "pleasure" of meeting Mr Bill 4-5 years ago after winning some LA Times sports writing award in high school. He was REALLY nice, suprisingly enough, and could even remember my piece, but god I hate him as a columnist. I'm sure Simers is actually a terrible person in real life, though.
2006-08-17 11:21:20
76.   Midwest Blue
67 In other words wrapping themselves seductively around inanimate objects, volunteering for wet t-shirt duty, enjoying getting dirty -- one man's trash is another man's treasure.
2006-08-17 11:32:48
77.   bhsportsguy
75 I think he probably he is a nice guy and I believe it was really hard for him not to jab Depodesta in yesterday's column (and I agree with Rob @ 6-4-2 that Ethier, just being named Texas League Player of the Year, was not exactly a sleeper prospect) that those types of columns is where he excels.
2006-08-17 11:33:14
78.   Marty
71 The punchline to that joke is always "well, the smartest man on the plane just jumped out with my lunch sack"

75 TJ is a very nice person.

2006-08-17 11:33:51
79.   Jon Weisman
74 - I've never had a bad moment with Plaschke. I've actually never heard of anyone not finding him pleasant in person.
2006-08-17 11:39:01
80.   bhsportsguy
So what would be a good road trip after this latest run.

I am expecting 5-4, 6-3 would certainly validate the last 3 weeks and anything better might make me start projecting the playoff rotation.

The good news is that our number 5 starter, whoever it is, is only scheduled to pitch once.

So get your predictions early.

2006-08-17 11:40:08
81.   Icaros

I can definitely see that side of it, and I'm not regularly opposed to any of the concepts you've listed. Believe me.

This time things just felt really un-good.

2006-08-17 11:40:14
82.   ddger
Jon, thanks for all those links and info.

Over 48 hours without Dodger game is going to be rough but we're glad to have DT to keep us going.

It would be great to see another winning streak but it would be nicer to see more consistency from our team rest of the year.

2006-08-17 11:42:14
83.   Bob Timmermann
Old Friend Odalis Perez taking on the White Sox in Chicago. 2-2 after two. Both pitchers (Buehrle going for the White Sox) have given up a solo home run in each of the first two innings.

I somewhat expected.

Odalis is the star of today's RGC!

2006-08-17 11:44:05
84.   Marty
There's still plenty of time for Perez to Odalisize the game.
2006-08-17 11:50:12
85.   Jon Weisman
84 - Yes, though the definition of that word involves his team getting a big lead first.
2006-08-17 11:55:48
86.   s choir
80 Winning all three series.
2006-08-17 11:56:59
87.   bhsportsguy
This must be old friend day, with Jeff Weaver pitching against the Reds and OP pitching against the Pale Hosers. Also, Sandy Alomar is in the lineup against Odalis (wasn't he supposed to be OP's caddy?) And there is hope that Baez will get in the game against the Nationals. And who knows maybe Ricky Ledee will get a pinch hit assignment later in the Mets game.

And you thought the Dodgers were off today.

2006-08-17 12:00:40
88.   bhsportsguy
Kevin Goldstein: That Jon Weisman is a cool guy too. I don't say that about a lot of bloggers.

Who cares what he says about the prospects, now everyone in BP land is going, who is Jon Weisman?

2006-08-17 12:02:05
89.   Bob Timmermann
The Alomar as Odalis's personal catcher experiment lasted one game. It didn't go well. I was there.
2006-08-17 12:06:36
90.   bhsportsguy
I think Lt. Bookman tells all his friends that Bob is a cool guy.
2006-08-17 12:07:53
91.   bhsportsguy
And Baez joins in the fun in DC.
2006-08-17 12:08:16
92.   Jon Weisman
90 - Bob Timmermann's nickname is Joyboy.
2006-08-17 12:08:31
93.   savetheblues
Heh I asked that question, I never get questions answered.
2006-08-17 12:11:32
94.   Bob Timmermann
I'm examing a new book on how to operate a casino.

I have news for anyone planning to visit a casino soon:

The House will win.

There are lots of charts and tables showing how that will happen.

2006-08-17 12:12:36
95.   tjshere
78 Thank you, Marty. ;^)
2006-08-17 12:13:29
96.   savetheblues
Damnit, I'm going to vegas tomorrow.
2006-08-17 12:13:58
97.   bhsportsguy
93 Since he has ranked Loney, Dewitt, Abreu, Hu (lowest), LaRoche, Kemp and now Elbert and Kershaw among the best in their positions during his postional rankings, while Arizona and Tampa Bay have some higher ceiling position players, the Dodgers should be in the top 5-6 teams depending on if Kemp does not get anymore at bats (doubtful) so he will still qualify as a rookie and none of the other guys suffer any set backs.
2006-08-17 12:17:30
98.   DXMachina
96 If you mail me all the money you have, you can save a bundle on carfare.
2006-08-17 12:18:02
99.   savetheblues
Yeah I know we have a great system etc, but right now it's producing hitters, with one starter to show. While I'm excited as hell for Elbert and Kershaw, given the lessons of EJ I'm going to wait on their somewhat distant callups to get super excited. I was 3 in 88, there haven't been a lot of highlights in my dodger-life, and I can't put in words how excited I would be if we have 3 quality starters make the majors.
2006-08-17 12:18:04
100.   Bob Timmermann
Do you want to see the table that shows how much of a plane ticket you should be comped depending on how much baccarat you play?

For example, if your average baccarat bet is going to be $1000 and you go through 15 shoes, you should be comped for up to $2,980 in air fare.

This table was computed by someone at Cornell.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2006-08-17 12:19:06
101.   Bob Timmermann
Kyle Lohse vs. Jeff Weaver - scoreless through four!
2006-08-17 12:19:58
102.   bhsportsguy
101 Some would say that Danny Baez pitching a scoreless innning would require even more !!!
2006-08-17 12:21:04
103.   savetheblues
I go to Columbia, apparently we look down on cornell.
(just kidding, I swear)
But you can beat the odds on blackjack if you get an 8 deck shoe, and my little math nerd mind is going to have a lot of fun.
2006-08-17 12:26:52
104.   bhsportsguy
One out away from Weaver and Baez throwing 8 combined scoreless innings.
2006-08-17 12:27:50
105.   Bob Timmermann
From p. 223 of the book

"Blackjack is the only casino game that can be beaten by the player. A player skilled in card counting can actually play with an advantage ..."

The house is aiming for a 0.73% edge and they will adjust accordingly.

2006-08-17 12:28:57
106.   bhsportsguy
A-Rod made an error (nunber 22) on a pop-up today, while in a 12-2 game, it should not matter, there is no doubt what the callers will be hot about after the game.
2006-08-17 12:30:31
107.   D4P
Do they no longer offer Tic-Tac-Toe in casinos...?
2006-08-17 12:31:53
108.   savetheblues
The way they adjust is they make you move to a higher minimum bet table so that your ability to vary your bet relative to your total playable money is significantly reduced, significantly reducing the advantage of card counting. You can also only really do it with a good 8 deck shoe.
2006-08-17 12:34:37
109.   Bob Timmermann

They can also move you to a busier or slower table to change the number of hands you get per hour.

There isn't much that casinos haven't figured out. It's like a license to print money!

2006-08-17 12:37:02
110.   savetheblues
Hence the popularity of poker, the math guys can grind away there with a significant statistical advantage and the house won't care, because all they do is take their rake.
2006-08-17 12:41:35
111.   Xeifrank
Jon, does Plaschke or anyone in the Dodgers organization know of and or read your site? If so, could you share with us who?? :)
vr, Xei
2006-08-17 12:46:26
112.   Xeifrank
I hate seeing Sports tv channels being wasted on poker tournaments. Next thing you know they will be televising keno or mah jong(sp?). vr, Xei
2006-08-17 12:50:54
113.   philmc78
Is nobody else outraged that John Donovan picked Kenji Johjima over Russ Martin on his all-rookie team on That's an outrageous claim that can't even be backed up by the numbers. Please send that guy a comment so he knows how stupid he looked by doing that.
2006-08-17 12:53:41
114.   Jon Weisman
111 - I think that most people involved with the Dodgers are aware of it at this point. How often they read it, I couldn't tell you.
2006-08-17 12:56:09
115.   bhsportsguy
114 I only hope they can get the concessions lines to move faster.
2006-08-17 13:01:15
116.   philmc78
Here's a quick breakdown of the Russ Martin/Kenji Johjima numbers, by the way.

Martin (83 games): 43 runs, 21 doubles, 3 triples, 6 home runs, 47 RBI, 8 stolen bases, .303 avg, .370 obp, .830 ops.

Johjima (108 games): 48 runs, 18 doubles, 1 triple, 13 home runs, 53 rbi, 1 stolen base, .298 avg, .339 obp, .797 ops. Please defend your selection.

2006-08-17 13:04:18
117.   Bob Timmermann
1-1 Cincinnati vs. St. Louis - Top 8 - Reds have a runner on 3rd with one out
2006-08-17 13:07:27
118.   Midwest Blue
Canseco as a pitcher. Is there a more laughable story in sports this year?

PS: I'd hate to be the guy that stuck out to him. How embarrassing!

2006-08-17 13:09:04
119.   Icaros
It's hard to beat someone with a name like Kenji Johjima.
2006-08-17 13:10:29
120.   Bob Timmermann
The Reds couldn't score. Going to the bottom of the 8th in the Mound City.
2006-08-17 13:10:44
121.   regfairfield
Odalis is probably done for the day. Not a terrible outing: seven innings, four runs, six strike outs, five hits, one walk.

Only problem was two runs.

2006-08-17 13:11:18
122.   Bob Timmermann
Ahh, the Reds. What other NL playoff contender can relieve Kyle Lohse with the likes of Ryan Franklin?
2006-08-17 13:12:56
123.   regfairfield
Odalis actually did out pitch Buerhle despite allowing more runs. Not that that's much of an accomplishment nowadays.
2006-08-17 13:13:05
124.   Bob Timmermann
Of course, the Dodgers can send out Mark Hendrickson and bring in Giovanni Carrara.
2006-08-17 13:14:33
125.   regfairfield
124 Then shut the door with Aaron Sele.
2006-08-17 13:17:26
126.   Bob Timmermann
The Yankees are headed for a loss and the last two pitchers for the Orioles have been Russ Ortiz and Bruce Chen.
2006-08-17 13:22:42
127.   GoBears
Jon's excellent article raises a related question that I've wanted to ask some of our minor-league gurus:

How much of the Dodgers' success in the draft lately has been the result of finding studs that other teams overlook, and how much has been due to great draft position? This is not a thinly veiled critique - it's a sincere question. I'm sure it's a little of both, but I guess what I'm really wondering is, how often have other teams picked guys ahead of the Dodgers that the Dodgers or Nate or Canuck or Hobos or whoever else pays good attention to these things would have passed on?

For example, with Kershaw, it seems that those in the know were pretty sure he'd fall to the Dodgers, and he did, and that's great. Were the guys picked ahead of him all obviously better? Will Logan White start looking less magical if the team starts getting lousier draft slots?

Baseball isn't like football or basketball, where teams often have to draft for need, allowing someone like, say, Aaron Rodgers to fall halfway down the first round because none of the teams before the Packers needed a QB. In baseball, given the long development time and huge number of trades, my guess is that stockpiling any kind of talent is a good idea, to be sorted out later by the market.

No game today, so I figured I'd throw out a complicated question.

2006-08-17 13:28:06
128.   Jack Fimple
I was actually wondering the same thing. Also, how much is the Dodgers drafting success based on their ability to sign their draft choices (a certain Royals farm hand notwithstanding.) Do Dodger draft picks fall into their lap because the teams drafting above them simply don't think they can sign them?

Some things to think about as I cheer for the D-Backs and Padres to lose (I am not cheering for the Giants to win).

2006-08-17 13:31:26
129.   thinkblue0

I'll absolutely take Martin. Just by the offensive numbers alone it looks like Johjima may have a bit more HR power, but that's about it.

I'll take the guy who gets on base more when it comes to catchers over the few extra HR. Not to mention Martin is actually pretty speedy compared to other catchers.

Not saying I don't like Johjima...but I just think Martin is the better player right now..but not by a ton.

Would like to check out the defensive numbers, but I'm headed out to get Pho! Haven't had that in about two years.

2006-08-17 13:34:41
130.   Bob Timmermann
Real pho? Or faux pho?
2006-08-17 13:36:18
131.   bhsportsguy
127 I will take a crack, obviously Ethier was a product of a trade but part of Logan White's philosophy was to take high ceiling high school pitchers (Billingsley, Elbert and Kershaw) while others were taking college players. The Dodgers were fortunate that Hochevar went as the first pick (which no one foresaw until the last week or so before the draft and that Andrew Miller was passed for signability issues which let them get Kershaw at 7.

I don't think anyone knew for sure and the fact that they were going to pick Bryan Morris at 7 and were able to get him at 25/26 should tell you about their philosophy.

Were the guys ahead of Kershaw better, off the top of my head, Hochevar and Miller should see the majors within a year or so, Evan Longoria has gotten raves thus far, the only one I can think of that may be questionable is the Rockies pick of Reynolds, a college pitcher out of Stanford I think. And that has more to deal with his ceiling.

As far as finding players other teams overlook, the first round always gets the most notice but Kemp was a 6th round pick I believe, Russ was in the late teens, LaRoche was taken in the 38th round because no one thought he would sign (Dodgers signed him for a million). On the other hand, Loney, Billingsley, Broxton, Elbert, Kershaw, Morris and Mattingley were all taken in the fist or second round.

2006-08-17 13:47:19
132.   D4P
No game today, so I figured I'd throw out a complicated question

Complicated questions on game days are "OK" in my book...

2006-08-17 13:48:08
133.   thinkingblue
I wonder, has Hendrickson ever tried to throw a slider? If not, I wonder why, wouldn't him being so tall increase the effectiveness of a slider?
2006-08-17 13:48:44
134.   twerp
If anyone cares/missed it, this snippet from LA Times' TJ Simers today, about yesterday's blowout====

"HENDRICKSON WALKED the bases loaded in the first, and with Cody Ross due up, Little went to the mound to presumably remind Hendrickson that the Dodgers had essentially cut Ross, so no sweat. Ross then doubled home three runs.

"Ross singled in his next at bat, driving home another run, and this time it was pitching coach Rick Honeycutt who went to the mound to talk to Hendrickson, presumably to tell him that the Dodgers had cut the wrong guy"

2006-08-17 13:50:15
135.   bhsportsguy
134 That was cute but of course Hendrickson was not on the team at that time.
2006-08-17 13:52:01
136.   Bluebleeder87
I think that most people involved with the Dodgers are aware of it at this point. How often they read it, I couldn't tell you.

I consider our site underground the less people know about it the better (loyal Dodger fans aside) this is how I like it.just my 4 cents.

2006-08-17 13:57:18
137.   gibsonhobbs88
115 - When they start hiring folks under the age of 80, the lines will move faster.
126 - So the Yanks will be 1.5 games ahead of the Sox headed into their huge 5 game series this weekend at the Fens. So we have the two greatest rivalries in baseball this weekend, Yanks-Sox and Dodgers-Giants. You got to love it!!
By the way-The Angels seem to aspiring to appear on a growing list of teams to feud with: Lackey v.Kendall with the A's, the Rangers, Escobar v. White Sox cather A.J. earlier this year from last year's ill fated strike 3 with Eddings forgetting how to umpire. Who's next??
2006-08-17 14:04:43
138.   Andrew Shimmin
Wasn't last year the only one in which they've had great draft positions? Before last year, they hadn't finished under .500 since 1999. Between that, and their free agent habit (the reason we didn't have picks, this year, in rounds two through, what, five?), it doesn't seem likely that they've had great draft positions (though, I should actually look it up, instead of just guessing).
2006-08-17 14:18:50
139.   the OZ
127 I've actually looked at this a little bit lately. Supposedly, White's strength has been his ability to identify talent after the obvious top picks are taken. In other words, among the pool of players that most teams agree could be good players but not sure things, White is able to identify the best of the bunch.

Billingsley, Elbert, and Loney were all taken in the second half of the first round. Greg Miller was a sandwich pick, #31 overall. Russ Martin was a late-round pick.

Here's a link to draft results. You can navigate around for yourself. I sometimes find it interesting to play a game of "who could the Dodgers have picked in this round instead of the selection they made?".

2006-08-17 14:18:51
140.   ToyCannon
The reason Logan White is on a pedestal is because he did build the number one minor league system without a top 10 pick. Arizona got a no brainer with Steve Drew and Upton since they were top 5 talent but until this year Logan has never drafted higher then 17th.
Martin - 17th round 2002, ROY candidate, incredible pick.
Loney - 1st round pick, 19th pick
LaRoche - 39th round pick, signability issue
Kemp - 6th round pick - considered a stretch
Broxton - 2nd round pick, 60th overall
Billingsly -1st round pick, 24th overall
Elbert - 1st round, 17th pick
DeWitt - 1st round, 28th pick
2006-08-17 14:26:49
141.   Jon Weisman
Saw this at BTF:

2006-08-17 14:26:59
142.   3upn3down
Dear (insert deity of choice here), please watch over Clay Kershaw's left shoulder, elbow, wrist and finger nails. And if you could keep an eye on his knee's, hamstrings, and groin muscles for the next 20 years, a great dodger nation will be forever indebted.


2006-08-17 14:31:24
143.   3upn3down
Not his knee's hamstrings, his knees and hamstrings. Apologies from a spell check dependent blogger.
2006-08-17 14:32:47
144.   savetheblues
And watch over Chad Billinglsey and Scott Elbert too, please.
2006-08-17 14:33:06
145.   Andrew Shimmin
Snakes! In the woods!

Is a pistol the right tool for snake huntin'?

2006-08-17 14:39:48
146.   Greg Brock
Cue the "Snakes on a Farm" jokes...
2006-08-17 14:40:02
147.   JoeyP
Elbert has struggled at AA.
8Hrs in 40IP.
K's are good- 55
BB's not so good-26

Most everyone has said Jacksonville is a tough park to hit HRs in, so Elbert's been getting hit hard.

Dewitt is 7/42- .167/.255/.167
Chin Hu is OPS'ing .652 on the season.

The farm's actually somewhat lean right now. It'll be interesting what BA ranks the Dodgers next year.

2006-08-17 14:43:51
148.   the OZ
147 Isn't Elbert only 20 years old (or just turned 21) and playing at AA?

I'm not sweating it.

2006-08-17 14:48:30
149.   Bob Timmermann
In addition to the Dodgers-Giants and Red Sox-Yankees series this weekend, the Cubs are playing the Cardinals and the White Sox are playing the Twins.
2006-08-17 14:49:26
150.   tjshere
A little help? I have a friend who's a New Yorker. I'm taking nothing for granted here, but in the event that the Dodgers and Mets meet in the playoffs we would like to make a friendly wager on the series. Nothing serious, just the sort of stuff mayors do when their respective teams meet in a World Series or Super Bowl. Something with a local cultural flavor. He has already agreed to put up a dozen genuine NY bagels but I am at a loss as to what I could offer in return. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated, but please bear in mind that there will be shipping involved here and I am poor.


Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2006-08-17 14:53:29
151.   JoeyP
Elbert was born May 13th, 1985.
He's 21yrs old.
2006-08-17 14:56:35
152.   Bob Timmermann
Send him something that represents California's leading cash crop: grapes!

Or you can go for #2: almonds.

Dairy products are way ahead of the other two though. Maybe he'd like a quart of milk?

2006-08-17 14:59:20
153.   Eric Stephen
147 I would imagine the Dodgers will be high again with BA, even with the promotions/trades of several 2006 top prospects. Gone from the top 20 are:

1) Billingsley (LA)
3) Guzman (traded to TB)
4) Martin (LA)
4) Ethier (LA; not included in top 20 in book since he was an Athletic (#4), but he was rated slightly ahead of Matt Kemp, who was #6 for LA)
5) Broxton (LA)
6) Kemp (LA; BA's cutoff is 130 "at-bats"...I'm not sure if they mean AB or PA, but Kemp is at 122 AB & 133 PA, almost certain to get 8 more AB anyway)
15) Pimentel (traded to KC)
16) Blake Johnson (traded to KC)

I don't have the BA 2006 book in front of me, so I can't confirm those prospect numbers are accurate.

They still have top level talent. The top 2007 prospects will probably be:

Loney (currently at 80 PA, might still be a "prospect")

Those alone, along with Young, Hu, Morris, etc should keep the Dodgers in Baseball America's top 10

2006-08-17 14:59:43
154.   Bob Timmermann
Kevin Correia looks like he will be trying to get the rare 14-out save for the Giants in San Diego.

The Padres will slip below .500 if they don't rally.

2006-08-17 15:00:50
155.   savetheblues
Ask him for bagels from Ess-A-Bagel. Trust me.
2006-08-17 15:01:17
156.   dagwich
152 I suspect Bob means "California's leading legal cash crop."

If you go with the actual leading cash crop this bet may be way more interesting than you anticipate.

2006-08-17 15:04:47
157.   King of the Hobos
154 Do you mean 11-out save?
2006-08-17 15:04:57
158.   Bob Timmermann
Actually, it's going to be an 11-out save for Correia.
2006-08-17 15:05:47
159.   tjshere
156 Yeah, that was my first thought too. Maybe I could combine two suggestions and send him a quart of milk from a cow that grazed on the #1 cash crop.
2006-08-17 15:06:57
160.   DodgerJoe
75...I've met TJ Simers and had dinner with him, through my brother. He's a nice guy and is very knwledgable.

He says that his articles are nonsense and are used to get people's goads.

I still don't read them, but talking to him gave me another persepctive.

2006-08-17 15:07:25
161.   GoBears
Thanks for all the draft thoughts. Interesting stuff.

150. Tamales!

2006-08-17 15:08:02
162.   caseybarker
150 Send him a dozen handmade tamales.
2006-08-17 15:08:31
163.   Bob Timmermann
I know a guy in Idaho who can tell you if a dairy cow was grazing on marijuana by just tasting the milk.
2006-08-17 15:09:37
164.   dagwich
159 It's worth a shot. At your own risk you could query Google and see what the research shows on that.

Ess-A-Bagels are great, though H&H are more famous and also wonderful. Or check out Zabar's online and see what you like.

2006-08-17 15:09:43
165.   JoeyP
Padres' will have the 2nd worst home record in MLB baseball after their loss today.

Royals are 26-33 at home.
Padres are 28-35 at home.
Braves/Cubs are 25-31 at home.

2006-08-17 15:10:27
166.   caseybarker
Always late to the party 161
2006-08-17 15:11:30
167.   caseybarker
163 Is his name Pedro Sanchez?
2006-08-17 15:12:04
168.   Telemachos
He says that his articles are nonsense and are used to get people's goads.

Goats -- right? You goad somebody, but you could also get their goat.

2006-08-17 15:12:29
169.   Bob Timmermann
Out #11 proved too tough for Correia.
2006-08-17 15:12:47
170.   bhsportsguy
147 On the one hand, 8 home runs is not great, but teams are batting .176 against him in AA, he has only allowed 16 other hits besides those home runs, with men on base, teams are batting .188 and with RISP, .156

Interestingly, he has pitched better on the road at both A and AA this year.

He probably has 3-4 starts left in the regular season and one start in the playoffs. With a little over 125 IPs combined, maybe he gets to 145 or so IPs, he probably gets shut down for the year and starts next year back in AA.

2006-08-17 15:12:57
171.   caseybarker
Padres should have at least 36 losses.
2006-08-17 15:13:15
172.   overkill94
147 Must you always bring up the gloomy side of everything? Elbert's giving up about 1/2 a hit per inning, I wouldn't call that being "hit hard". Even with the high walks, his WHIP is a very good 1.14 and his ERA a solid 3.34 (all according to Rotoworld).

Dewitt's is a very small sample size and discounts the strides he made in the last few months at hi-A.

Hu you have a point about.

2006-08-17 15:15:09
173.   bhsportsguy
172 Again, if the Dodger pitching prospects don't have great control, strike out a ton of guys and don't give up homers, JoeyP is going to be disappointed.

BTW, he would have written off Koufax well before 1962.

2006-08-17 15:15:41
174.   Bob Timmermann
Rally killer by Josh Barfield.

8-4 Giants in the 9th.

But the bases are empty....

2006-08-17 15:15:50
175.   Bob Timmermann
Rally killer by Josh Barfield.

8-4 Giants in the 9th.

But the bases are empty....

2006-08-17 15:16:02
176.   JoeyP
BBs and HR/9 at the minor league level are pretty important.

Its what kept Tiffany from amounting to anything.

DeWitt's been a disappointment considering his amount of hype. His power was nice to see at Vero, but everything else didnt really suggest top prospect status, especially given his new position.

2006-08-17 15:16:09
177.   Bob Timmermann
I knew that would happen.
2006-08-17 15:16:19
178.   bhsportsguy
169 Darn, no 11-out save today.
2006-08-17 15:17:03
179.   bhsportsguy
However, if Giles and Gonzalez can get on, Benetiz could get a save.
2006-08-17 15:18:09
180.   Bob Timmermann
Or even 14 outs!
2006-08-17 15:19:08
181.   D4P
Has it not been pointed out yet that Jon snuck the phrase "You do the math" into his piece on Ethier...?
2006-08-17 15:20:32
182.   Eric Stephen
153, 147 I forgot about #13 prospect Chuck Tiffany, who was sent with E-Jax to Tampa.
2006-08-17 15:20:38
183.   bhsportsguy
176 The only thing is that Elbert has been pretty dominating otherwise, it does appear that Kershaw has a little better upside right now.

I agree about DeWitt though I think he is somewhere in between what we saw in Columbus and Vero Beach. But with Abreu, Hu, LaRoche, and Betemit, they have a lot of time to give him. And he still has some support in places like Baseball America.

2006-08-17 15:20:49
184.   Jon Weisman
181 - Thank you.
2006-08-17 15:21:32
185.   the OZ
Its what kept Tiffany from amounting to anything.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Tiffany's career isn't over. He's not a top prospect (was he ever considered a top prospect?), but he's far from valueless.

Even borderline prospects that make the big leagues and produce at replacement level add value to their clubs while their contracts are under club control.

2006-08-17 15:21:53
186.   bigcpa
With HR #16 yesterday LaRoche has a .313/.413/.493 line. Next year he can be our Kevin Youkilis.
2006-08-17 15:23:01
187.   Jon Weisman
Is the game you all are talking about the game that, when I checked in on the score, was a 3-0 one-hitter after seven?
2006-08-17 15:25:45
188.   Bob Timmermann


Both teams pens were burnt out after last night's marathon.

When Williamson came in last night, Kuiper couldn't ID him, so he said, "When we return, 'That Guy' is coming in to pitch for the Padres."

I almost expected someone in San Diego to be flying a kite with Scott Williamson's cariacature on it.

2006-08-17 15:28:50
189.   GoBears
Huh. Just figured out that JoeyP and oldbear are one and the same.

This knowledge doesn't change my evaluation of the content of any of his (their) posts, but it does bring a little more order to my world.

I'm generally the last person to know anything, so this probably comes as non-news to most of you. I just like to share my epiphanies.

My last one was about the blue LA team playing in Los Angeles and the red team playing in Orange County. That's been true for quite a while, of course, but the blue-state red-state thing is only a few years old.

2006-08-17 15:29:30
190.   Jon Weisman
Group challenge:

Without looking, name five San Diego Padre relievers from the 1970s.


2006-08-17 15:29:50
191.   JoeyP
I'd probably put LaRoche into that Martin/Broxton/Billingsley/Kemp group that should be counted on to be starting level players.

I'll be surprised if Loney/DeWitt/Hu/Abreu/Miller/Young ever develop into starting MLB'ers. I have probably written them off.

Orenduff/Elbert/Kershaw--too early to tell I think. Orenduff needs to come back from injuries. Elbert needs improvement. Kershaw's too early to really think about.

2006-08-17 15:29:54
192.   Andrew Shimmin
Elbert's AA numbers are too screwy to take seriously. Unless there really is such a beast as a 3TO pitcher.
2006-08-17 15:30:37
193.   Bob Timmermann
I decline to participate
2006-08-17 15:31:02
194.   tjshere
161 162 166 Excellent suggestion but they would require refrigerated shipping. I may have to fall back on that, but I'm hoping to avoid it if at all possible. IF this even happens.
2006-08-17 15:31:18
195.   Eric Stephen
190 Rollie Fingers?
2006-08-17 15:31:32
196.   bhsportsguy
187 Yep, the Giants scored 2 runs in the 8th and 3 runs in the 9th, Correia came in the game in the bottom 6th and once they scored all the runs, he stayed in the game (plus the fact that they had played extra innings last night). Then Correia loaded the bases in the bottom of the 9th and was taken out with 2 outs, Barfield hit the slammy and then the Giants got the last out.
2006-08-17 15:33:01
197.   King of the Hobos
Billingsley and Elbert in the their age 20 seasons:

B(A+): 2.35 ERA, 92 IP, 68 H, 49 BB, 111 K, 6 HR
E(A+): 2.37 ERA, 83.2 IP, 57 H, 41 BB, 97 K, 4 HR

B(AA): 2.98 ERA, 42 IP, 32 H, 22 BB, 47 K, 1 HR
E(AA): 3.35 ERA, 40.1 IP, 24 H, 26 BB, 55 K, 8 HR

That's about as identical as two different players can be, save for the Jacksonville HR rate.

2006-08-17 15:33:18
198.   bhsportsguy
188 I think the pen will be locked tomorrow night, Schmidt will have to go 9.
2006-08-17 15:33:29
199.   caseybarker
Dave Freiselben.
2006-08-17 15:34:14
200.   bhsportsguy
194 For less than $25.00 bucks with shipping, 1 pound box of See's Nut and Chews.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2006-08-17 15:35:20
201.   the OZ
191 Again, I don't think the players you have 'written off' in your second paragraph NEED to develop into starting MLB players to be useful.

From a roster construction perspective, would you rather have Dioner Navarro or Toby Hall as a backup playing catcher once a week? One of them costs nearly ten times the other. Having backup players that produce at above replacement-level for league minimum AND having control over those players' contracts has a great deal of value and allows resources to be allocated to other, more relevant areas of need.

2006-08-17 15:36:04
202.   Andrew Shimmin
194- Since you're taking the Dodgers, and he gets the Mets, you should be allowed to put up a California State quarter against his bagels.
2006-08-17 15:36:56
203.   tjshere
199 Wow, good answer. I can't believe how tough this question is.
2006-08-17 15:40:30
204.   tjshere
202 LOL! Point well taken.
2006-08-17 15:40:52
205.   Jon Weisman
190/199/203 - I'm not cheating, either.

Eric Show?

2006-08-17 15:41:09
206.   JoeyP
Even borderline prospects that make the big leagues and produce at replacement level add value to their clubs while their contracts are under club control.

True, but those parameters should not be in effect with a large market club. For a large market club, every single roster spot should be a player above replacement value if the budgeting has been properly aligned.

Tiffany might have value to a small market club that cant afford someone better, but for the Dodgers I dont think he'd be of very much use.

I fully understand that a league minimum (lets say Tiffany) #5 with a 5.00 ERA is more valuable than a 5mils 4.80 ERA pitcher. However, the goal should be to have a pitcher better than either of those scenarios. Tiffany is the lesser of two evils, but ideally you'd want neither.

Therefore, I dont think just being replacement level is enough to make the Dodgers, if you are a prospect.

2006-08-17 15:42:49
207.   King of the Hobos
197 Billingsley was actually a year younger, I just managed to confuse myself with dates. The stats are still nearly identical, even if Elbert was a year older.
2006-08-17 15:43:02
208.   Eric Stephen
190, 199, 203 This is a very hard question. I was born in 1976, but for some reason my mind keeps drifting to the old baseball cards I had, specifically the 1974 Topps set which referred to the Padres as "Washington, Nat'l League" because they were this close to leaving SD.

But, I can't seem to come up with any more names!

Did Randy Jones relieve once? :)

2006-08-17 15:45:54
209.   Jon Weisman
Did Al Hrbosky ever make it to San Diego?
2006-08-17 15:46:21
210.   Bob Timmermann
Eric Show didn't debut until 1981.
2006-08-17 15:46:30
211.   bhsportsguy
205 I thought I knew someone, I checked and was wrong, I had the wrong name so I will abide to the rules and not enter.

But a hint would be one ringy dingy, two ringy dingy, etc.

2006-08-17 15:46:38
212.   JoeyP
I see your point Oz. If the goal was to make the best team with the least amount of money possible, then all those value adding scenarios would work.

But I'd rather have the best team, not the most efficient team.

Therefore, for a prospect to make my team, he needs to be a difference making player. Sure I'd rather have Navarro than Toby Hall, but its more bc Navarro is just a better player, not bc of the salary difference.

2006-08-17 15:46:56
213.   Bob Timmermann
You are likely confusing Al Hrabosky with Al Santorini.
2006-08-17 15:47:53
214.   Jerry
I thought Gossage was an obvious answer until I realized he didn't get there until the 80s.
2006-08-17 15:47:58
215.   caseybarker
Show was around in the 1970's? I, too, am thinking of baseball cards. Those 1976 Topps Padres are some ugly dudes.
2006-08-17 15:49:15
216.   King of the Hobos
206 How many above replacement players would be willing to play the bench? I think it's virtually impossible that a team can have above replacement value at all 25 spots. That said, replacement level isn't very high. Loney is batting .271/.346/.457 this season, which is higher than replacement level for an NL 1B (.236/.317/.438). I also believe Dewitt, Hu, and Abreu could surpass their positional replacement levels (.234/.283/.348 for SS, .244/.306/.382 for 2B).
2006-08-17 15:51:12
217.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Pulling this from a deep recess of my memory... Juan Eichelberger?
2006-08-17 15:52:26
218.   Bob Timmermann
I remember this memorable 1973 baseball card of a Padres reliever.

Look at the background:

2006-08-17 15:52:28
219.   ryu
Evan Longoria is a Dodger prospect?
Do all Longorias have first names that start with E-V-A?
2006-08-17 15:52:37
220.   King of the Hobos
216 Those are 2005 replacement levels, but the 2006 levels shouldn't be too different. Those numbers are from Baseball Between the Numbers, and 2006 may be somewhere on BP, but I lack the membership to find them.
2006-08-17 15:57:11
221.   Jon Weisman
213 - If you are likely can be translated as "there's a snowball's chance ..."
2006-08-17 15:58:11
222.   Robert Daeley
Here's a question: Einar Diaz's name has been added to the 40-man roster:

Without anybody being removed, thus producing (unless I've miscounted) a 41-man roster. Any ideas as to the rules in cases like this? Do they have a certain amount of time to resolve the situation?

2006-08-17 16:00:25
223.   Andrew Shimmin
219- Sort of. He's one in the sense that JtD, Jackson, and Tiffany are ones.

He's in Tampa's system.

2006-08-17 16:00:46
224.   King of the Hobos
222 The Dodgers had 40 men on the 40 man, but 3 were on the 60-day DL, and thus don't count. We could add 2 more players to it for call ups if Ned wants, and a 3rd if Gagne is 60-day DL'd
2006-08-17 16:02:18
225.   Robert Daeley
224 Ah, okay. I had been assuming the 60-day guys were taking up space, since the number of slots still added up to 40. Thanks.
2006-08-17 16:02:24
226.   bigcpa
218 So what's the deal? Is that the State Pen?
2006-08-17 16:04:00
227.   Andrew Shimmin
Longoria's already in AA? That was quick. And his batting average is twenty points higher than his OBP? That's quite a trick.
2006-08-17 16:08:02
228.   the OZ
212 Making the "best team for the least money" isn't my argument. It seems that you're arguing that the Dodgers, as a "big payroll club", should not need cheap players to fill out the back of their roster (#5 starters, bench players, etc) since they should be spending a ton of money on good players at every position, including #5 starters and utility infielders.

An issue you're not addressing is scarcity. Hypothetically, let's assuming that there's a free-agent pitcher named Ricky Vaughn that everyone knows will pitch well, with certainty, over the duration of a 4-year contract and whose talents are worth exactly $12M per year. Assume that exactly one pitcher of Mr. Vaughn's credentials becomes a free agent each offseason. You can't sign all of them because other teams are competing for their services. Therefore, you need to fill out the rest of your rotation with (1) homegrown players (2) trades, which carry a high degree of uncertainty regarding player availability and cost (3) other, lesser free agents.

I don't argue that signing all the best possible players isn't desirable, I argue that it's IMPOSSIBLE. Shoot, the Yankees have a $180M payroll and only two good starting pitchers, and they're both nearly 40 years old.

My point is that even great, expensive teams need roster filler and DL-replacements that are of at least average quality over which they can exert control WITH CERTAINTY. The only path to this is a minor league system where players are not cast aside just because they don't look like everyday players.

I think we've both made our points. I'm done now.

2006-08-17 16:11:42
229.   caseybarker
Ricky Vaughn would probably not have good chemistry with the older players, and he is a bit of a hothead.
2006-08-17 16:11:44
230.   Claire Malone-Evans
Rich Folkers
2006-08-17 16:13:23
231.   Bob Timmermann

It's not the State Pen, but wouldn't you think the photographer could have moved the trash can from the background?

Or found any background that was better?

I doubt many casting agents get head shots of actors posed next to a beatup metal trash can.

Maybe it amused me more 33 years ago.

2006-08-17 16:13:53
232.   dkminnick
160 - "TJ Simers... says that his articles are nonsense and are used to get people's goads."

That's exactly why I can't stand Simers. It's an easy, cheap, nasty schtick he's chosen for his life's work.

From Jim Murray to TJ Simers... tells you all you need to know about the LA Times these days.

Hope that's not overly negative, Jon, but it's Simers' negativity that I'm railing against, if that helps.

2006-08-17 16:13:57
233.   Jacob L
Did Juan Eichelberger ever relieve? Honestly, short of Ozzie Smith and Dave Winfield its hard to name any players from the 70s Pads.

The question in 150 is closely related to the quandry I will have if LA ever hosts the All Star Game again. As I've blathered on about dozens of times, I host an annual All Star party with food representing the host city. This year I made corned beef sandwiches with fries on them, with apparently is popular in Pittsburgh.

Anyway, the candidates for a future LA All Star party:

chili burgers
the kosher burrito
french dip

2006-08-17 16:14:34
234.   Bob Timmermann
Al Santorini and Al Hrabosky were teammates on the Cardinals for a brief spell.
2006-08-17 16:15:10
235.   tjshere
Darn you, Jon, this is going to be haunting me all evening! I'm an old guy and the 70s were my baseball prime. This shouldn't be so hard to figure out.
2006-08-17 16:16:33
236.   King of the Hobos
I commented in 216 that it's virtually impossible to field a team where all 25 men are above replacement level. I retract that claim. Of the 25 men on the roster at this moment, all 25 of them are above replacement level. Hendrickson and Lugo are not above replacement as a Dodger, but they are for this season including Tampa Bay. Thus it appears that JoeyP's goal in 206 has been accomplished by the current Dodgers 25 man roster.
2006-08-17 16:16:37
237.   Bob Timmermann
Sheesh, Jon threw everybody a room service fastball with that question!

At least for those of us who intensely researched great moments in Dodgers-Padres history once.

2006-08-17 16:21:56
238.   Jon Weisman
235/237 - I know not everyone was a fan of "Friends," but it reminds me of the trivia contest they had and that the question that stumped them was, "What is Chandler Bing's job?"
2006-08-17 16:21:59
239.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
233 - Relieved in three games.
2006-08-17 16:22:04
240.   Bluebleeder87
Rich Folkers

I'm jealous!!!! (really I am..for more than>....)

2006-08-17 16:26:24
241.   Jacob L
If I may be permitted continue the monologue with myself in 233 - how is it that the NL is hosting 2 consecutive All Star Games, and what shall I serve next year that best represents SF?

Seared sea scallops on a bed of baby greens with a white wine reduction sauce?

2006-08-17 16:26:57
242.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
230 - Ah yes, Folkers - the subject of a most amusing gaffe from SD announcer Jerry Coleman.
2006-08-17 16:28:25
243.   Zak
238 He worked with the WENUS. I like the TV Guide answer, Chanandler Bong. Ross is really funny in that episode.
2006-08-17 16:28:44
244.   caseybarker
238 It really seems that way for most middle relievers. I have trouble remembering the Dodgers middle relief from five years ago.
2006-08-17 16:29:15
245.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
241 - Linguine in a white wine clam sauce, a la Little Joe's in North Beach.
(One of the better meals in my life.)
2006-08-17 16:29:32
246.   tjshere
241 Lots of Ghirardelli chocolate.

I hope I spelled that correctly.

2006-08-17 16:29:46
247.   Bluebleeder87

he's my hero just for geting away with it!

2006-08-17 16:30:28
248.   Bluebleeder87
I'll be back, I'm getting some color carteges that I've needed for ever...
2006-08-17 16:31:07
249.   Bob Timmermann
The All-Star game doesn't alternate any more. It just goes to whomever demonstrates an ability to blackmail its fans in to buying tickets for it.
2006-08-17 16:32:26
250.   Andrew Shimmin
Izzy, Robles, JtD, and Odalis were right at replacement level when they were shipped out. Carter is the only sub-replacement level player to spend any time with the team this year.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2006-08-17 16:33:22
251.   bhsportsguy
245 Picking a legendary S.F. resturant and then San Franciso chocolate, that should get you banned for a week.
2006-08-17 16:34:12
252.   Robert Daeley
"Seared sea scallops on a bed of baby greens with a white wine reduction sauce?"

How about brine-injected chicken in a cream sauce?

2006-08-17 16:34:31
253.   Icaros

White clam chowder in bread bowls.

2006-08-17 16:35:41
254.   Icaros

And a side of heroin.

2006-08-17 16:36:04
255.   tjshere
251 If I were to be banned for a week no one would even notice.
2006-08-17 16:37:38
256.   Bob Timmermann
I'd care!
2006-08-17 16:38:23
257.   tjshere
John "The Count" Montefusco?
2006-08-17 16:39:06
258.   tjshere
256 Yes, but you wouldn't notice that you cared.
2006-08-17 16:39:19
259.   the OZ
250 Thanks for looking that up. Isn't that about a combined $14M worth of replacement-level?

Can $14M get you a VORP of 50 or more, if such a player is available in the market? If so, having three marginal prospects capable of filling their replacement-level output is extremely valuable if those resources are properly reallocated.

2006-08-17 16:41:53
260.   Greg Brock
238 I just remember that somebody thought he was a "transponster", or "transpinster" something to that effect.

Monica's nickname was "Big Fat Goalie". I'll never forget that.

2006-08-17 16:46:23
261.   Andrew Shimmin
259- Considering we started the season with eight plus million bucks worth of parttime outfielders, it seems crazy to believe that non-star quality prospects are expendable. But what do I know. Also, at some point you've got to take in to account the sort of garbage you get back when trading non-star quality prospects. It's sort of a case of allowing the perfect to be the enemy of the good, except, really, on what planet is paying some slightly above average guy several million dollars to be the fifth outfielder perfect?
2006-08-17 16:47:15
262.   Bob Timmermann
Typical San Francisco menu

Golden Gate Bridge rivets, deep fried and served with a side of ranch dressing

First course:
Mixed greens from the Federal Reserve Bank. I find that $10 bills taste better than $20 bills.

Main course:
Linguini in a clam sauce prepared with extra provincialism

Garlice sorbet topped with human growth hormone and flaxseed oil

2006-08-17 16:47:46
263.   Andrew Shimmin
That came out more harshly than I meant it to. Sorry. Should have read back over.
2006-08-17 16:48:43
264.   thinkingblue

I don't think it's too early to think of Elbert. Besides the HRs, he's been unhittable, only 24 hits in about 40 innings, and he's striking out a lot of hitters.

2006-08-17 16:51:13
265.   D4P
Followed by a romantic drive in a Prius...
2006-08-17 16:57:10
266.   Bob Timmermann

Except you would have to park the Prius in Daly City.

2006-08-17 16:59:19
267.   the OZ
263 If it's a rebuttal to my comment, I think we're actually in agreement and making the same argument.

basically, what I'm saying in 259 is that Loney, Hendrickson-quality AAAA pitcher, Repko-level OF (all cheap), and a $14M star player are better than $14M worth of Odalis, Robles, et al). Therefore, marginal prospects are good to keep rather than trade for more expensive mediocrities.

2006-08-17 17:02:04
268.   the OZ
Going back to the title of this post, what's an Ethiest? Do Ethiests have faith in Andre, or do they doubt he's for real?
2006-08-17 17:09:42
269.   D4P
And what's an Ethiopian?
2006-08-17 17:11:32
270.   Vishal
what's a nubian?
2006-08-17 17:13:23
271.   Bob Timmermann
If you want something of an answer to Jon's question about Padres relievers of the 1970s go to:
2006-08-17 17:14:13
272.   the OZ
269 They exist within the Ethierial Plane.
2006-08-17 17:15:20
273.   JoeyP
Loney is batting .271/.346/.457 this season, which is higher than replacement level for an NL 1B (.236/.317/.438). I also believe Dewitt, Hu, and Abreu could surpass their positional replacement levels (.234/.283/.348 for SS, .244/.306/.382 for 2B).

If thats what replacement level is, then I might have to amend my argument to wanting every single player to be significantly above replacement level.

Those numbers for 1b, 2b, and SS are horrible.

2006-08-17 17:34:42
274.   Marty
TJShere, here's my suggestions for your bet:

Tamales (I can suggest a few great places)
California avocados
Farmer John!
A good California wine
I'm willing to donate my Cesar Isturis bobble-head

2006-08-17 17:34:50
275.   Vishal
i wonder what a replacement level team's record would be.
2006-08-17 17:39:04
276.   Marty
The obvious Frisco-themed meal is....


2006-08-17 17:42:23
277.   Gagne55
275 A replacement level team would be around 41-121.
2006-08-17 17:47:47
278.   Gagne55
273 The 2003 Dodgers starting 2B went .249/.287/.338, their shortstop .251/.282/.315. Their firstbasemen cumutively weren't much better than .236/.317/.438, in fact none of them had a slugging that high.
2006-08-17 17:49:44
279.   Gagne55
Of course, that Dodger team had one of the weakest lineups in history.
2006-08-17 17:56:04
280.   Andrew Shimmin
267- It wasn't a rebuttal of your point; we definitely agree on this. But not everybody does, so going the, "any one who doesn't must be nuts," route wasn't a great idea.
2006-08-17 18:11:53
281.   tjshere
274 Thanks, Marty, those are good ideas. Avocados and wine were 2 of the things I was considering. I think he'd rather have a Duaner bobblehead though. Hehehehe.

We haven't had a pooch update in a while. How's it going?

2006-08-17 18:31:58
282.   Bob Timmermann
Dodger save leaders from 1970-79

Jim Brewer - 85
Charlie Hough - 59
Mike Marshall - 42
Terry Forster - 25
Pete Mikkelsen - 16
Pete Richert - 13
Mike Garman - 12
Bobby Castillo - 8
Lance Rautzhan - 7
Dave Patterson - 6

2006-08-17 18:40:26
283.   Greg Brock
282 That's much less linky than the Padres Griddle list.
2006-08-17 18:43:27
284.   Bob Timmermann
I can't make comments linky. But I think if you tried to name a bunch of relievers for any team in the 1970s, you would come up short very quickly. Relievers were a different bunch back then.
2006-08-17 18:51:54
285.   Greg Brock
Which leads me to one of the criminally underrated baseball books of all time, "Pen Men" by Bob Cairns. It may be the funniest baseball book I've ever read.

It's definitely funnier than "Game of Shadows"

2006-08-17 18:52:59
286.   tjshere
Seems like Mikkelsen threw a weird pitch of some sort. Was he another palmball guy or is my addled mind confusing him with Joe Moeller?
2006-08-17 18:57:43
287.   Bob Timmermann
Pete Mikkelsen threw a palm ball.

The early 1970s Dodgers bullpen featured guys with a gimmick pitch.

Brewer - screw ball
Mikkelsen - palm ball
Wilhelm - knuckle ball
Pena - fork ball

2006-08-17 19:00:10
288.   twerp
Link to profile of Daisuke Matsuzaka, FWIW.

From the profile: "Matsuzaka is known for his compact, fluid pitching motion, as well as his mastery of five different pitches, including a 96-mile-per-hour fastball as well as sinker, changeup, splitter, and slider."

Mastery of FIVE pitches!? Which leads to questions-- Is there a general reason why more pitchers don't add more new pitches? Do some try to learn others and can't (it couldn't be easy)? Is trying new pitches something teams frown on, especially during the season? Do pitchers generally have enough trouble with what they normally throw, so they don't experiment with more? Somebody 'splain me more...

Not long ago Fernando was quoted as offering to teach a screwball to any interested Dodger pitcher. Wonder if he's heard from any? If any tried, who knows if they could even do it, or if the results would ever be usable.

Any insights appreciated.

2006-08-17 19:06:43
289.   thinkingblue

I want Matsuzaka on the dodgers! Ok, there ends my unreasonable rant.

But anyway, I wonder, why doesn't anyone throw a screwball anymore, or throw lots of different pitches?

2006-08-17 19:09:47
290.   Bob Timmermann
I think pitching coaches frown upon the screwball because they feel it hurts a pitcher's arm.
2006-08-17 19:14:05
291.   twerp
288 Tried link in my own comment; didn't work. No problems earlier. Message at bottom says database trouble, check back later.

Technology's great...when it works.

2006-08-17 19:19:11
292.   twerp
290 I read somewhere a few years back that the Dodgers didn't teach the slider--at least not at that time--bc of concerns about elbow or arm damage.

Was that right? If so, does the club still feel that way? If so, and a Dodger has a slider anyhow, do they try to discourage its use?

2006-08-17 19:34:28
293.   CanuckDodger
Scott Elbert's work is done for the night:

6.0 IP, 1 H, 0 R's, 7 BB's, 9 K's

His total Double A stats now:

46.1 IP, 25 H's, 8 HR's, 33 BB's, 64 K's, 2.91 ERA

Obviously control is something Elbert will have to continue working on, but he has plenty of time. He'll be back in Double A to start next year, so anything he accomplishes at that level now is gravy.

It is interesting to compare Elbert's numbers -- lots of K's, lots of walks, not many hits surrendered -- to the numbers of another left-handed pitching prospect who played for the Jacksonville Suns -- in 1987, and at age 23, not at Elbert's relatively young age for Double A:

140.0 IP, 100 H's, 128 BB's, 163 K's, 3.73 ERA.

Who was that lefty, you ask? Randy Johnson.

2006-08-17 19:42:20
294.   DaveP
Kuo so far tonight:

2.0 IP, 2 H, 0 R's, 0 BB's, 5 K's

2006-08-17 19:42:59
295.   D4P
Is there no rule against jinxing a no-walker...?
2006-08-17 19:44:07
296.   twerp
Might as well get it all out of my system at once:]

Isn't a forkball pretty close to a splitter with close to same action?

What action does a palm ball have? Anyone throw a forkball or palm ball these days?

And how did Burt Hooton throw a knuckle curve? Normal curve release, knuckleball grip, or ? Seems like there may be a ML pitcher now who throws this pitch.

I probably have exceeded my 20 questions. I stop now, see what happens.

2006-08-17 19:44:23
297.   DaveP
295 - given that he has thrown about 3,000 pitches through the first two innings, I don't think there is any danger of a no walk complete game tonight.
2006-08-17 19:47:03
298.   D4P
Ah, you left the 3,000 pitch part out...
2006-08-17 20:03:00
299.   King of the Hobos
A no walker, even through 5 IP, would be especially impressive against Portland, which was pretty clearly assembled by Alderson's interests and not Tower's. Let's look at the PCL walk leaders:

Portland: 566
Sacramento: 530 (this is the A's AAA team)
Tucson: 463 (lots of really good, patient prospects)
Las Vegas: 421 (lots of really good, somewhat patient prospects)

2006-08-17 20:05:46
300.   caseybarker
296 Rob Neyer's book of pitches and pitchers is an excellent resource.

Pretty sure Eddie Guardado throws a palm ball.

Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2006-08-17 20:08:06
301.   King of the Hobos
To make Portland's 566 walks even more impressive, they have 64 more than the MLB leader, the Red Sox (of course, this is to be expected somewhat with the pitchers). Jack Cust alone has 124 walks, 30 more than the MLB leader, Bonds.
2006-08-17 20:16:42
302.   xaphor
[150] Ten In-n-Out Burgers.
2006-08-17 20:18:36
303.   King of the Hobos
George Kottaras broke up the no-walker in the 4th.
2006-08-17 20:26:37
304.   the OZ
301, et al

Wouldn't it make sense that there'd be more walks in a minor-league season just because the quality of pitching is much, much lower than the big leagues? I'd be surprised if the pro team with the most batting BB/game weren't a minor-league squad.

2006-08-17 20:36:58
305.   regfairfield
301 Some team what has no chance in 2007 needs to give Cust a starting job. He has to be a somewhat useful big leaguer.
2006-08-17 20:37:19
306.   dzzrtRatt
I decided not to play Jon's game b/c I couldn't think of any Padre relievers of the 70s, so I just looked them up. I won't give away what I learned, except to ask: What was the deal with Vicente Romo?

He was in the big leagues from '68-'74. Then he reappeared in 1982 with the Dodgers. pitching in 15 games, starting 6. I can still hear the way Scully pronounced his name in my head.

Did he go into witness protection?

2006-08-17 20:43:34
307.   Bob Timmermann
Romo pitched in Mexico in the interim. The Dodgers signed him in 1982 to fill out the pitching staff. Vic Davalillo had gone down to Mexico too and the Dodgers dug him up there too.
2006-08-17 20:44:49
308.   natepurcell
I already went over this with JoeyP but Elbert's birthday on baseballcube is wrong.

the updated rosters on has his real bday.

so instead of being born in May, and making this his age 21 season, he was actually born in August, which makes this his age 20 season.

okay time to go back to unpacking now.

wait one more... Kuo's awesome.

2006-08-17 20:46:48
309.   King of the Hobos
304 Minor League Splits has Portland's MLE walks at 443, which would rank 7th in the majors.

Kuo couldn't get out of the 5th inning due to pitch count, but his game wasn't too bad:
4.2 IP, 4 H, 0 R, 0 BB, 9 K, 96 pitches

2006-08-17 20:52:01
310.   natepurcell
okay i cant get away.

Elbert's homerun rate in AA doesn't concern me. why? Because it is so unlike his history. He hardly gave up big flies in Vero and the same in columbus. The limited about of IP in AA is skewing his homerate. If he pitches a large enough size (around 120-150), I think the homerun rate will come down and will be in line with the rest of his stops at the lower levels.

Control is an obvious issue, hes basically the left handed version of billingsley. But control can be learned and stuff can be harnessed, thats why im not really that concerned with Elbert. He doesn't need to be rushed either.

2006-08-17 20:57:01
311.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 309

No walks, wow.

It's getting to the point that I'd rather have Kuo start than either Sele or Hendrickson this season.


2006-08-17 21:00:54
312.   Disabled List
Looks like Kevin Brown is just as warm and friendly in retirement as he was as a player:

I hope the media have the right Kevin Brown this time, unlike the Eddie Johnson mess last week.

2006-08-17 21:03:33
313.   King of the Hobos
311 That's actually a typo. He walked one batter, George Kottaras.
2006-08-17 21:06:58
314.   StolenMonkey86
9 Strikeouts in 5 innings?! Wow.
2006-08-17 21:09:50
315.   King of the Hobos
Kuo's game scores since becoming a starter: 34, 42, 44, 61, 63, 65, 63. Hanrahan's been even more impressive recently, at least as far as his game scores are concerned: 73, 69, 75
2006-08-17 21:21:14
316.   King of the Hobos
The 51's bench has yet again been decimated. Einar Diaz and Jeff Duncan have both been DL'd, and no one has replaced them, thus Mark Alexander batted for himself in the 6th. He was immediately replaced in the top of the 7th after striking out on 3 pitches. Robles and Langill are both on the bench, but I'm guessing Robles is being saved for the 8th or 9th, and Langill is the back up catcher.
2006-08-17 21:33:13
317.   tjshere
302 That's exactly what I would like to wager but the shipping creates too much of a problem. And even if I could get them shipped I'm guessing a 2-day old Double-Double wouldn't be all that great.
2006-08-17 21:42:43
318.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 312

Not to say that Brown should have pulled his gun out, but they can be useful when it comes to snakes. I had a colleague who had to kill a snake threatening his dog recently.

If I was hiking somewhere with a lot of bears, especially, grizzlies, I'd feel a lot more comfortable armed.

Of course, pulling a gun out in this sort of dispute is really uncalled for, to say the least.


2006-08-17 21:55:18
319.   Andrew Shimmin
318- But with a pistol? Or is that only impressive to a no-good-at-all shooter?
2006-08-17 22:01:15
320.   Greg Brock
I don't know if this has been brought up yet, but Fire Joe Morgan absolutely CRUSHED Bill Plaschke today. One of the more entertaining bits of reading.

2006-08-17 22:13:25
321.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 319

Well, I'd think that with snakes at close range, a handgun would be just fine. Also just less awkward than carrying a long gun. My colleague actually killed the snake with a .22 rifle, though.


2006-08-17 22:19:17
322.   Andrew Shimmin
I like to kill snakes from as far away as possible. I don't even understand the point, actually, of having cruise missiles if not to kill snakes. Or with a shovel, like a true sportsman.
2006-08-17 22:19:21
323.   D4P
I'm not completed unconvinced that responding that way isn't exactly what Plaschke wants.
2006-08-17 22:22:02
324.   Greg Brock
323 Yes, but it doesn't make it any less funny. The sad thing is, while Simers lives to antagonize, Bill truly believes what he writes.

I can't believe I'm talking about Bill Plaschke. I just thought the article was funny's all. :)

2006-08-17 22:24:56
325.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 320

Yeah, I hated that column too.

I've gotten into some arguments on this site over DePo vs. Colletti, and I think the sabermetric crowd can really oversell their case at times, but Plaschke's worse than useless. A column like that, with Ned pandering to Plaschke's prejudices, really makes me wish that DePo was back.

I really wonder what it would have been like last season if Grittle had been DePo's field manager. I honestly think that that would have worked out for both. DePo would have handled personnel, and Little's folksy act would have worked well in the media. Most importantly, Little is flexible. One of the striking things about Carrara's save are that I remember his previous critical comments regarding Boston's closer-by-committee experiment after Ned's Baez trade. And lo-and-behold, during the actual season, Grits ends up doing the same thing.

Whatever coherent articulated philosophy Little might have about baseball is almost certainly "old-school," like Ned and Plaschke. But the great thing about Little is that unlike Tracy, he isn't straitjacketed by his "philosophy"; he just sort of mosies along, and for the most part, it's worked this season.


2006-08-17 22:27:49
326.   D4P
I can't believe I'm talking about Bill Plaschke

Again, unfortunately, that's exactly what he wants. 'Tis a catch-22 of the most maddening sort.

2006-08-17 22:30:11
327.   Greg Brock
325 Grady figured it out. He's a baseball lifer, a very relaxed personality, and, by all accounts, a nice fellow. I think he realizes that a manager is there to implement the vision of the front office, and he does his best to accomodate that. It's not about him (I'm looking at you, Dusty Baker).

Plus, the guy is Hilarious.

2006-08-17 22:31:31
328.   Greg Brock
326 There's only one way to handle this...

Snakes on a Columnist

Make it happen, D4P.

2006-08-17 22:37:34
329.   D4P
Snakes on a Columnist

Again, exactly what he wants...

2006-08-17 22:39:23
330.   Andrew Shimmin
Is there anything he doesn't want?
2006-08-17 22:43:38
331.   Greg Brock
330 Oddly enough, he does not want a successful Middle East peace process.

I told you, he's horrible.

2006-08-17 22:44:21
332.   D4P
(Can't talk here. He's probably reading this right now...)
2006-08-17 22:46:25
333.   the OZ
328 Why bring Bob Novak into this?
2006-08-17 22:54:23
334.   Andrew Shimmin
Bill Plaschke loved The Aristocrats. He was like our rehearsal director when dad and my brother weren't there, and my mother and my nana weren't there. I was on his show... he said it wasn't a taped show, but we, like, did a show... yeah, it was his office. But he had a bed in it, like a couch... that he called "Uncle Bill's Bed for Little People", because a couch is like a bed for little people, y'know...

2006-08-17 23:10:47
335.   Greg Brock
334 Straddling the line, while being fall down funny. Well played, sir. Well played indeed.
2006-08-17 23:31:35
336.   das411
KoTH! I was at Seo's 7 inning, 2 run game on Weds!! He even walked right past where I was sitting like 5 rows up before the game (I love being able to walk up an hour before game time and buy field level tix to Devil Ray games), and he even signed a couple autographs before the national anthems started. His start was pretty nice too, ran into a couple of rough innings but managed to escape with only one run given up both times...unfortunately the 2-2 tie that he left was then turned over to the Tampa Bay bullpen and professional gas can Brian Meadows. wrap here:

And Ic, the only rays I got to pet were in this:

I could have gotten autographs from Zobrist, possibly Crawford and Upton, and Seo (Travis Lee looked sooooo much like he was trying to ignore all the kids asking for players that weren't him to sign), but for two minor problems:

1) forgetting a pen and not having the $4 to drop for a fancy Devil Rays one, and

2) at this point I look quite a bit older than many of the players do!

2006-08-18 04:31:11
337.   Vishal
anyone else see that in SF, for the dodger game tomorrow they're handing out giants hats with "beat LA" emblazoned on the side? how tacky:

2006-08-18 08:45:25
338.   Penarol1916
I see a few people noticed that Odalis Perez had a decent outing against the White Sox. I was there and was shocked at how well he did. He seemed to living off of his off-speed stuff, his fastball hit 90 3 times during the game, but was usually 87-88. The White Sox were just consistently befuddled by how slow his slow stuff would get. I don't think he had a single swinging strike where the ball went faster than 65.
2006-08-18 08:45:43
339.   808Bears
337 Great. I'm going to that game, but what am I going to do with that awful cap?
2006-08-18 08:52:12
340.   Greg Brock
Apropos of nothing, that new Samuel L. Jackson movie (the name escapes me, I think it has something to do with air travel) is currently carrying a robust 83% critic approval.

Begin packing for the apocalypse. Don't forget socks.

2006-08-18 08:55:50
341.   D4P
I hate socks
2006-08-18 09:00:17
342.   Robert Daeley
339 Bring a fabric pen and write "Can't" just above the "beat LA".
2006-08-18 09:23:49
343.   Gagne55
The Giants are coming into this series hot, though. I'm kinda worried.
2006-08-18 09:31:14
344.   808Bears
342 It's still Halloween ugly, though.
2006-08-18 09:34:55
345.   808Bears
Also, did anyone else see Orel the other night on Baseball Tonight talking about the best baseball rivalries? Naturally (it must be in his contract with ESPN), he said that the Sox-Yankees was the best, but his reasoning for why it was better than the Dodgers-Giants rivalry was pretty spot on. He said that it's because the Dodgers-Giants rivalry is pretty one-sided -- that the Giants (and their fans) are much more obsessed with beating the Dodgers than vice versa. But then, we all already knew that. My new cap tomorrow is just another example.
2006-08-18 09:37:58
346.   Robert Daeley
My quixotic battle is that the Dodgers-Giants is the greatest, because up until 2004, the AL East wasn't a rivalry so much as the Yankees owning the Sox for decades. :)
2006-08-18 09:39:14
347.   Jon Weisman
345 - I would actually say that the level of hatred for the Giants that I find in the comments here is higher than I encounter offsite. So while I agree with Orel, the comments here don't offer supporting testimony.
2006-08-18 09:58:41
348.   Vishal
and the yankees-red sox rivalry hasn't historically been one-sided?

frankly, i think historically speaking, the dodgers and yankees have a pretty darn good rivalry.

2006-08-18 10:01:08
349.   Bob Timmermann
"Hot" in the NL West is a relative term. The Giants were ice cold before sweeping the Padres. Maybe it's their turn to win 17 of 18.
2006-08-18 10:02:59
350.   Bob Timmermann
Starting this season, the tally was:

Yankees - 1078 wins
Red Sox - 899 wins

Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2006-08-18 10:08:55
351.   the OZ
348 I agree, just because of how many times they've met in the World Series. I'd love to see that happen again over the next 10 years with the Dodgers hopefully having more success than their 3-7 mark against the Yankees in the World Series since 1940.

The Yankees and Dodgers have met in ten(!) World Series since 1940, about 15% of Series played.

2006-08-18 10:11:00
352.   DXMachina
When I moved from New Jersey to New England in the mid-seventies, and Sox fans started going on (and on and on) about the Sox-Yankees rivalry, my first question was, "And the Yankees know about this?"
2006-08-18 10:14:21
353.   Bob Timmermann
If you read Bronx Banter, you will encounter some serious hatred for the Red Sox. My one Yankees fan friend out here is really more of a Red Sox hater than anything else.

We tend to neglect the Cubs-Cardinals rivalry since both teams are rarely good at the same time, but those fans and teams really dislike each other.

2006-08-18 10:17:57
354.   the OZ
352 Until the ESPN era, Yankees-Sox seemed to be the same type of "rivalry" as Dodgers-Padres.

The Padres' fans really wish someone would care about them enough to hate them.

2006-08-18 10:22:43
355.   DXMachina
354 Yup. During most of that era (except for '78) I think most Yankee fans considered the Orioles to be the main rivalry.
2006-08-18 10:27:39
356.   Bob Timmermann

I care! I care!

2006-08-18 10:28:36
357.   Xeifrank
Having lived in both the Bay Area and in SoCal like a few others here have, I also noticed that the Dodgers/Giants or LA/Bay Area rivalry was pretty much one sided. People in the Bay Area not only hate the Dodgers but the Lakers and the Rams when the Rams were in LA. Many of the Bay Area residents took it a step further and pretty much hated anything to do with SoCal including it's culture and people. Unfortunately, I got to see up close and personal what happens when people stereotype another group of people. vr, Xei
2006-08-18 10:34:09
358.   Dark Horse
I wasn't even really aware there was a (Los Angeles) Dodger/(San Francisco) Giant rivalry until I lived up in the Bay Area for a few years...growing up I always felt our rivals were the Reds and Yankees. Which dates me maybe but still I marvel at the provincialism of places that obsess over "beat(ing) L.A." But it's fairly easy to dismiss when you recognize no one, anywhere, will ever chant "Beat S.F"--lovely city though it is--or "Beat S.D."

Ah, jealousy. Hopefully we can fan its flames this weekend and for the rest of the next...decade or so.

2006-08-18 10:35:49
359.   Bob Timmermann
I can understand there being a rivalry between S.F. and L.A., but L.A. and San Diego is strange since those metropolitan areas abut each other and if it weren't for Camp Pendleton, there wouldn't be any empty space between them.
2006-08-18 10:37:52
360.   gibsonhobbs88
345,347 - I would agree with Orel in the context of his playing days, it was more of a rivalry in the Giants fan's mind. Dodger fan's had become complacent and just thought SF was a nice place for a weekend getaway. Last few years though, there has been a shift as Dodger fans at the stadium have become more vocal regarding the Giants (The Bonds factor is key). Bonds gives the Dodger fans one person to lash out at as the embodiment of Giant evil. Most fans don't know of all the other reasons to hate the no-cal battery chuckers, black and orange hideous colored uniforms, history of cheating in baseball (51 season - telescope and signals from the bullpen helping them with their streak to catch the Dodgers late in the season), saturating the basepaths in the 60's to slow Wills down and Bonds and the steroids!! Also, SF fans being allowed to be abusive to Dodger players by MLB and never having to forfeit. All the beer, batteries, rotten fruit and hard objects meant to injure a player all ignored by MLB in NY. Probably applauding the Giant fans in secret, hey Bud!! To all Dodger fans, we do have scoreboard on them 5 WS rings on the west coast to the Giants 0!! Take that battery chucking cheaters!!
2006-08-18 10:39:07
361.   Bob Timmermann
Judging from its current, the Yankees-Red Sox morning game will take approximately 15 hours to complete.

Go get a sandwich.

2006-08-18 10:41:11
362.   Bob Timmermann
But when Bonds stops playing for the Giants, are Dodgers fans going to be that worked up about visits from the Giants?

I doubt it.

Are a bunch of guys going to get liquored up before the game and say "Let's go heckle Todd Linden!"

2006-08-18 10:46:28
363.   Jon Weisman
Two big annoying guys behind us at the game Saturday were yelling "Steroids!" so much that my three-year-old turned around and yelled "Stop yelling 'steroids!'" That was interesting.

My dad, who is mystified at how intensely Bonds gets singled out given the probability of how many other players have used, also felt that based on their girth and level of inebritation, the two hecklers shouldn't have been worrying about the harmful substances other people are ingesting.

2006-08-18 10:48:30
364.   regfairfield
363 Strangely, no one joins in when I try to start a steroids chant for Jorge Piedra.
2006-08-18 10:53:13
365.   Berkeley Doug
As someone who has attended many LA/SF games in SF, I can attest to the Giants' fans utter hatred of the Dodgers, even though I think it is less noticeable since the Giants started playing at their new ballpark. Nothing today can compare to the intensity and loudness of the "Beat LA" chants at the old Candlestick. It also didn't help that it was usually 50 degrees outside with a 20 MPH wind.
2006-08-18 10:53:46
366.   gibsonhobbs88
362 - The casual fan probably not! I have many more reasons as I listed in 360 for why I hate the Giants. I should have also mentioned 1962, 1982 and 1991 when they either beat us and won a playoff or knocked us from a playoff on the last day or weekend of the season. Then they had the nerve and the audacity to complain when the Dodgers enjoyed knocking the Giants out of the 93 division pennant on the last day. Matt Williams crying that Orel was clapping and enjoying it. Such a short memory, Matt!! Two years before, Will Clark was doing a moondance at first when they knocked us off!! You know what they say about payback!!
2006-08-18 10:54:57
367.   D4P
given the probability of how many other players have used

You are a ruthless dictator who slaughters innocent people

2006-08-18 10:55:26
368.   bhsportsguy
362 I agree, the game I went, to folks were just minding their business until Bonds comes out onto the on-deck circle and then if he makes out and heads back into the dugout, they go back to their garlic fries.

To me, there are no real rivalries in pro sports, in College, aside from USC/UCLA, I think Cal/UCLA has its share, and USC/Notre Dame drives some to wear Green or Cardinal.

The problem with the Lakers is that generally, the Lakers have won, even the Spurs with Duncan lost 3 out of 4 years when the Shaq/Kobe teams wents heads up against them in the playoffs.

Clippers/Lakers, it will probably take a playoff series to possibly bring that one to a good boil.

2006-08-18 10:59:35
369.   bhsportsguy
363 That surprised me too, I was sitting behind home plate in a game against the Giants in early July and this one guy across the aisle just started on Bonds anytime he had a chance, sure he drank a few beers but I just guess that some believe that it is their right to yell and scream their heads off at the ball game.

PS - Good for your daughter but I am guessing that did not stop them nor embarass the two hecklers.

2006-08-18 10:59:52
370.   bhsportsguy
363 That surprised me too, I was sitting behind home plate in a game against the Giants in early July and this one guy across the aisle just started on Bonds anytime he had a chance, sure he drank a few beers but I just guess that some believe that it is their right to yell and scream their heads off at the ball game.

PS - Good for your daughter but I am guessing that did not stop them nor embarass the two hecklers.

2006-08-18 10:59:55
371.   Penarol1916
I find it odd that people are downplaying the Dodger-Giant rivalry as Dodger fans, while at the same time trying to say the Yankees-Dodgers is a rivalry. Of all of the Yankee fans that I've known throughout my life, the most negative feeling about the Dodgers that I've seem is complete and utter disinterest, with the rest just saying that it would have been cool if they had stayed in Brooklyn.
Seriously, do people think that there is an actual Dodger-Yankee rivalry? To me, the rivalries people seem to play up are the ones that affected them as kids. Those that started paying attention to baseball in the late 70's probably think that there is one, anyone else, probably not.
I always hated the Reds and Cardinals much more than the Yankees.
2006-08-18 11:03:57
372.   Bob Timmermann
Last time I checked, Cal's big rival was a school down in Santa Clara County. Starts with an S I believe.

Cal fans tend to dislike all the other California teams, but much of the dislike of UCLA and USC stems from the fact that they usually lose to them.

Cal versus Those Guys From Unincorporated Santa Clara County is usually an matchup in most sports.

2006-08-18 11:05:52
373.   Jon Weisman
367 - I am, or my dad is?
2006-08-18 11:07:06
374.   Jon Weisman
372 - You can only imagine how torn up I was about Iheanyi Uwaezuoke.
2006-08-18 11:10:40
375.   D4P
The cracker jack doesn't fall too far from the box
2006-08-18 11:12:20
376.   ryu
372 Cal students love to call UCLA their little sister who copied their school fight song, jersey colors and mascot.
2006-08-18 11:17:05
377.   Bob Timmermann

The average UCLA student also has absolutely no idea what the Cal fans mean by that also.

From my experience, UCLA's student fans, for people who have to be smart to get in to the school, are incredibly unknowledgeable sports fans in all facets. They also tend to not know of the history of any particular sport at the school with the exception of basketball.

If you went through the student section at a football game at the Rose Bowl and sampled 100 students at random and asked them who Cade McNown was you might get 40% right. If you asked them who Troy Aikman was, they would say "Oh, that guy who is on TV and played for the Cowboys."

2006-08-18 11:19:10
378.   gibsonhobbs88
371-I personally don't downplay the Dodger Giant rivalry, I am more talking about the people that attend the games to be seen and do not pay attention to the game on the field. Short-attention spans with people nowadays are counter-productive to this timeless game. I was at the Tuesday Billingsley game and people in our row and the row in front of us kept getting up in the middle innings, seat hopping for no apparant reason and the Dodgers had a potential rally with the bases loaded. It was driving me crazy. (A sidenote: Petco Park in SD has ushers that don't allow people back into their seats until there is a break in the action.) How are these people going to keep up our end in a rivalry when they don't know a double play from a double martini!!
2006-08-18 11:20:18
379.   GoBears
I dunno, Bob. I was at Cal 1985-89. The rivalry with Stanford was intense and tinted with a smidge of class warfare (rich, small, insular private school vs. huge, diverse public university -- or so we chose to believe) but there was also an underlying spirit of camaraderie. I think this was because both schools were awful in football and hoops (Cal's hoops team just started to emerge to NIT level in the late '80s, and Stanford was still a few years away), while both were good at non-revenue sports (water polo, swimming, etc.).

So Stanford was our rival, but the teams (and especially fan bases) that we REALLY hated were those from u$c and Ucla. The arrogance of fans that only knew success was outrageous, and we liked nothing better than humbling them. To this day, the Cal win over Ucla at Harmon Gym (yea, gym - only seated 5000) to break a 26-year, 52-game streak is my greatest sports memory (followed closely by Gibby's HR). That UCLA team had some easy guys to hate too: Reggie Miller, Pooh Richardson, Don McLean, Tracy Murray.

So there are rivals and there are rivals. Cal-Stanford, in those years was about beating each other and not finishing last in the Pac-10. Beating U$C and Ucla, however, was like winning the lottery. My guess is that the Cal-Stanford rivalry is different now that both schools have had some very good years in both big revenue sports.

2006-08-18 11:24:40
380.   ryu

Really? I would think that one doesn't need to be a sports fan to understand the original campus-branch campus relationship between Berkeley and UCLA.

2006-08-18 11:24:59
381.   Bob Timmermann
That's describing an inferiority complex, not a rivalry.
2006-08-18 11:25:26
382.   bhsportsguy
378 The first time I ran into that was at Staples, at first it was annoying and then you just knew you had to get back to your seat prior to the game/quarter starting.

That's an interesting observation from Tuesday's game, I know the week before when Maddux pitched, there seemed to be a lot of appreciation of what he was doing, maybe it was just more than usual and that stood out.

2006-08-18 11:25:34
383.   the OZ
Ahh, Don McLean. Pride of Simi Valley High School. Along with both the good J. Weaver and the other, older, more 'medicated' J. Weaver.
2006-08-18 11:25:58
384.   Penarol1916
378. I was referring more to 348 and 358 than your post about people downplaying the Giant rivalry and trying to play up some imagined rivalry with the Yankees.
2006-08-18 11:26:43
385.   Bob Timmermann
In the 4th inning, Bronx Banter is already at 278 comments.

And they've got at least 15 innings more to go!

2006-08-18 11:29:48
386.   Bob Timmermann
I've opted to watch the NESN broadcast for the Yankees-Red Sox instead of ESPN because I like to adhere to a "No Steve Phillips" policy.
2006-08-18 11:33:27
387.   regfairfield
382 Steve Lyons made it clear that only Cardinal fans understand the game that well.
2006-08-18 11:33:31
388.   Berkeley Doug
385 The tone of the comments in Bronx Banter makes the comments here during a Dodger game seem like a garden tea party.
2006-08-18 11:33:33
389.   Telemachos
385 It will be a dark day if Bronx Banter beats us to "First to 1000 comments".
2006-08-18 11:34:31
390.   Jon Weisman
381 - Yeah, beating UCLA or USC was more of an achievement, but we got more emotionally involved in playing Cal.

I question some of the history given in 379, though - we hit the NIT in '88 and the NCAAs in '89. And, we went to the Gator Bowl in '86.

2006-08-18 11:35:26
391.   Bob Timmermann
If we could comment most of the time by just saying "(Expletive deleted) David Ortiz" (or its San Francisco equivalent), we'd get to 1000 in no time.
2006-08-18 11:35:36
392.   Jon Weisman
389 - If I didn't create separate game threads, it wouldn't be an issue. But my Treo can't handle download more than about 500 comments, so I like to start fresh.
2006-08-18 11:36:15
393.   Bob Timmermann
I went to UCLA from 1983-87 and I can say that I have many bad dreams involving Brad Muster.
2006-08-18 11:37:14
394.   Daniel Zappala
386 Thanks Bob, didn't realize I could get NESN on DirecTV.
2006-08-18 11:38:50
395.   Bob Timmermann
You will have to hear a lot of Jimmy Fund stories today on NESN.

But I think little kids with cancer are more enjoyable to listen to than Steve Phillips.

I think Steve Phillips causes cancer in little kids.

2006-08-18 11:39:12
396.   Berkeley Doug
Boston ties it up 1-1 with two Olney's (as I understand the term)
2006-08-18 11:40:10
397.   Bob Timmermann

That is the correct use of the term, but you don't use an apostrophe in it.
One Olney.
Two Olneys.

2006-08-18 11:41:21
398.   Daniel Zappala
From my perspective, particularly attending football games, the rivalry between Stanford-Cal from 86-92 was really intense. Especially when fights occured between mascots.
2006-08-18 11:41:24
399.   Berkeley Doug
397 A temporary lapse in elementary school grammar. :)
2006-08-18 11:41:49
400.   Jon Weisman
Daily aggregate comments at Dodger Thoughts
(Date given is date thread was originated)

394 August 17
408 August 16
682 August 15
774 August 14
588 August 13
465 August 11
476 August 10
1,177 August 9

Show/Hide Comments 401-450
2006-08-18 11:45:10
401.   Daniel Zappala
395 Well, when you put it that way ...
2006-08-18 11:47:08
402.   Bob Timmermann
Getting into a fight with The Tree shouldn't be a crime, it should be considered a public service.

Getting into a fight with the Notre Dame Leprechaun is another public service.

I believe that Traveler is college football's greatest mascot because the USC PA announcer says it EVERY time the horse comes out on the field. So it must be true!

2006-08-18 11:48:17
403.   Jon Weisman
402 - Talk about your moral superiority.
2006-08-18 11:49:02
404.   Berkeley Doug
3 - 1 Yankees on a HR by Johnny "Throws Like a Girl (Based on a shirt I saw outside Fenway this year)" Damon.
2006-08-18 11:50:15
405.   Bob Timmermann

Joe Bruin drives a Prius!

2006-08-18 11:52:27
406.   Daniel Zappala
The Tree is a particularly difficult costume to move around in. Winning a fight with the Tree is as simple as tipping it over. Purposely picking a fight with the Tree, as Oski did, is not a valiant act. It's about as dumb as fighting with your little sister.
2006-08-18 11:54:30
407.   Jon Weisman
An independent political organization has placed an ad on Dodger Thoughts. This ad came about having nothing to do with my political views, one way or another. Please feel free to click on it or ignore it without comment.

And now, back to your regular programming.

2006-08-18 11:56:03
408.   D4P
Would you allow any political organization to place an ad on DT?
2006-08-18 11:56:18
409.   Marty
I love the commenters on Bronx Banter complaining about a Boston bias by ESPN. It seems to me every third word on ESPN is Yankee.
2006-08-18 11:58:01
410.   Bob Timmermann
I believe it is ironic that the political ad is a move to organize people who don't wish to join a political party.
2006-08-18 11:58:25
411.   Terry A
"Did an independent political organization put you in its Alltel 'My Circle' without your consent? Join my class action suit today!"
2006-08-18 12:02:24
412.   Jon Weisman
408 - No, but seeing as this one advocated (on its face, anyway) non-partisanship, I felt it would be okay.
2006-08-18 12:03:03
413.   Jon Weisman
411 - LOL
2006-08-18 12:03:10
414.   dzzrtRatt
379 During my Cal years (73-79), in which the teams ranged from pretty good, to mediocre but with a few great players, to awful (plus we had a great QB succumb to cancer), I personally felt the rivalry with USC was a sports rivalry, while the rivalry with Stanford was more of a clan rivalry. The entire university community, including those who had no interest in sports whatsoever, got caught up in the Big Game. But the football fans wanted us to crush the Trojans. The USC games were always much fiercer, a lot more blood on the Memorial Stadium astroturf. The Stanford games had the feel of a fox hunt or a croquet tournament. It is entirely in keeping with my impression of that rivalry that the most memorable game had a wacky, cartoonish ending. I would like to know if the Big Game has ever been a decider of the Pac 8 or 10 -- I'd be surprised if it has done so in my lifetime. Wheras, when I saw Cal play the Trojans in '04, it had national implications.
2006-08-18 12:10:34
415.   Robert Daeley
Hey, in the NYY/BOS game, both Manny and Johnny Damon have hit the ball over the outfield fence. Apparently, you get points when you accomplish this feat. Do you think the Dodgers could incorporate this strategy somehow? It seems prudent.
2006-08-18 12:10:51
416.   Jon Weisman
414 - "The Stanford games had the feel of a fox hunt or a croquet tournament."

No Big Game I ever went to ever had an iota of high class to it. They may have been parochial, but they certainly weren't sophisticated.

2006-08-18 12:11:12
417.   dzzrtRatt
351 I would love it if somehow a Dodger-Yankee World Series materialized again this fall. The fact that such a thing is even possible will make my day!

I get it that the Yankees fans lack any passionate sense or rivalry with the Dodgers. Other than the Mets, which is more of a commercial rivalry, the Yankees look at all National League teams as "whoever." But from the Dodger end, it's a rivalry, and beating them any year will be sweet and memorable.

Even though this is just a dream, my optimal postseason course would have us first beat the Cardinals, then the Mets, and finally the Yankees. You can substitute the Reds for one of the NL rounds, and that would be fine too.

2006-08-18 12:13:18
418.   Vishal
[350] they may be close in head to head, but how about division titles?
2006-08-18 12:14:36
419.   Daniel Zappala
Even though this is just a dream, my optimal postseason course would have us first beat the Cardinals, then the Mets, and finally the Yankees.


2006-08-18 12:16:52
420.   dzzrtRatt
416 Really? Boy, when I think of the Big Game, I think of 70-year old Cal alums sitting with plaid caps, and blue and cold blankets over their knees. When I think of the games against SC or UCLA, I think of PhD chemists reduced to the status of screaming barbarians. But that might've just been my worm's eye view from watching folks walk in and out of the coliseum before and after the game. I saw most of my Cal football from the branch of a tree on Cheapskate Hill.
2006-08-18 12:17:01
421.   Vishal
as a cal fan, naturally i root for cal above all else, but i don't hate the other UCs, or even the other pac-10 schools, except s-ford. i was definitely rooting for UCLA against florida in the NCAA basketball championship, and for USC against texas in football (my grudge against texas for stealing the 2005 rose bowl from cal notwithstanding).
2006-08-18 12:17:04
422.   Bob Timmermann
In the 1949 Big Game, Cal was undefeated in conference (and overall) play and Stanford had one conference loss (and a nonconference loss to Michigan and a nonconference tie to Santa Clara).

Cal won 33-14, but I think they may have gone to the Rose Bowl anyway if they had lost.

2006-08-18 12:20:24
423.   Bob Timmermann
The Astros are the only NL team that has played in the World Series that has not played the Yankees.
2006-08-18 12:20:53
424.   dagwich
417 We can party like it's 1941, 1947, 1949, 1952, 1953, 1955, 1956, 1963, 1977, 1978, or 1981.

Selective stat: in the past 51 years we're at .500 with them!

2006-08-18 12:21:17
425.   Daniel Zappala
420 Absolutely. I saw the Big Game from both the Stanford and Cal bleachers, sitting in the student sections. From my perspective, everyone on both sides were screaming and passionate. It was also the only thing anyone talked about in the dorms for the month leading up to the game.
2006-08-18 12:21:44
426.   GoBears
390 I question some of the history given in 379, though - we hit the NIT in '88 and the NCAAs in '89. And, we went to the Gator Bowl in '86.

Wow. I completely forgot that. I guess misery loves company, if it's imaginary company.

2006-08-18 12:22:53
427.   Jon Weisman
421 - I always root for any Pac-10 team in a non-conference contest.

420 - I guess your foxhunts are different than mine.

However old they were, I know people from Cal were throwing stuff and meancing anyone in a red shirt. And the Stanford folks had their antics as well.

2006-08-18 12:24:12
428.   Penarol1916
417. I believe that is what Mr. Timmerman would decribe as an inferiority complex. I'm sorry, but you can't have a rivalry when one side just doesn't care. Also, my dream post-season would be beating the Giants in a one-game playoff, then taking out the Reds and the Cardinals, with a world series win against any American League team since they are all the same to me.
2006-08-18 12:25:12
429.   Bob Timmermann
In 1949, Cal played seven conference games. Stanford played four.
2006-08-18 12:25:28
430.   dkminnick
In the NY/BOS game, the Sox are robbed when a GR double prevents a runner from scoring who should have obviously scored. Allow me to again raise my call for a rule change to all-runners-score on a GR double.
2006-08-18 12:26:19
431.   Jerry

"Eric Gagne probably has played his last game in a Dodgers uniform. The club isn't going to pick up his $12 million contract option, and Gagne's agent, Scott Boras, isn't going to let him sign on the cheap."


2006-08-18 12:27:46
432.   GoBears
Cheapskate Hill

It's "Tightwad Hill," unless it has changed over time.

2006-08-18 12:30:32
433.   D4P
Gagne's agent, Scott Boras, isn't going to let him sign on the cheap

Gagne's agent, Scott Boras, likes larger commissions better than smaller

2006-08-18 12:30:33
434.   Jon Weisman
431 - That's just the same common sense analysis we've all been applying. Still a possibility of a one-year contract with incentives if no one else bites.
2006-08-18 12:31:01
435.   dzzrtRatt
431 Good luck with that, Boras. Your client effectively hasn't pitched since 2004. Gagne's a marquee name, but so is Yogi Berra, and nobody's clamoring to sign him to play catcher.

Gagne will be lucky if he gets an incentive-laded, one-year deal for, mmmmm, maybe $4-$5 million.

2006-08-18 12:32:11
436.   Bob Timmermann
Cal-Stanford has been decided by one team scoring on the last play of the game five times, which is the most of any two teams in the NCAA.

1972 - Cal 24, Stanford 21
1974 - Stanford 22, Cal 20
1982 - Cal 25, Stanford 20
1990 - Stanford 27, Cal 25
2000 - Stanford 36, Cal 30 (OT)

All the games were at Memorial Stadium.

2006-08-18 12:33:44
437.   dagwich
432 I spent a few Saturdays there in 75-76. We always called it "Cheapskate Hill." What was the name of that Cal QB back then? He made those teams competitive for a change.
2006-08-18 12:34:33
438.   Bob Timmermann
In other rivalries, the Cardinals lead the Cubs 4-3 in the fourth.

Carlos Marmol started for the Cubs and imploded early. Jason Marquis is on the mound for the Cardinals and primed to give up runs by the bushelful.

2006-08-18 12:36:36
439.   Bob Timmermann
The people in charge of firing off the cannon at Berkeley call it "Tightwad Hill".

You know the fire that after safeties too!

2006-08-18 12:37:41
440.   Bob Timmermann
I'm omitting letters and words all over the place today.

The Cal QB in 437 would have been Steve Bartkowski, no?

2006-08-18 12:39:33
441.   Robert Daeley
435 I can see the Aflac commercials now.

"Hey be careful, do you think I got that insurance?"

"What insurance is that, Eric?"

2006-08-18 12:39:39
442.   GoBears
421 as a cal fan, naturally i root for cal above all else, but i don't hate the other UCs, or even the other pac-10 schools, except s-ford. i was definitely rooting for UCLA against florida in the NCAA basketball championship, and for USC against texas in football (my grudge against texas for stealing the 2005 rose bowl from cal notwithstanding).

Yeah, that's different. I will root against Stanford, USC, or UCLA under any circumstances (my most fervent wish for USC-Stanford game was a localized natural disaster of some sort - locusts would be fun). I can't stand seeing those teams win. I'll take Miami over UCLA, ND over $C. Same for Zona in hoops, and back when they were any good, U-Dub in football.

The Oregon teams, and ASU, and WSU are usually pathetic enough that it's nice to see them do well.

I think Bob's right. Inferiority complex has a lot to do with it. I'm guessing that you're much younger than I am, Vishal, so you were at CAL when they were actually good. This changes things. In my day (heh heh) we didn't have a shot at a bowl game or the NCAA tourney, so strength of schedule considerations didn't matter. Conference pride was nonsensical. The teams you hated the most were the teams you played the most. And you wanted them to do poorly no matter what.

2006-08-18 12:41:00
443.   gibsonhobbs88
382-I was at the Maddux game too and the people around me did seem to be more into that game. Last Tuesday, however, it was back to the same "it's about me being noticed not the team I paid to watch" perspective.
384 - I was kind of agreeing with you. I was just taking the rivalry thing from a different angle. I know the point you were trying to make.
434 - I will be surprised to see Gagne in Dodger Blue next year. Like Jon, said, if others are scared off by his injuries the last two years, Dodgers could get him for 1 year in a "Prove it year for Game Over". I see the deal with incentives as having to be in the 7-8 million range for Gagne/Boras to consider.
2006-08-18 12:44:01
444.   Daniel Zappala
I root for the Pac-10 in all situations now, though it wasn't always that way. Partly this is due to having been at 3 Pac-10 schools. But mostly this is because anything that improves the prestige of the conference is good for everyone. When your Pac-10 team finally has a really good season in football but finishes 2nd, it really helps to have the conference be highly regarded nationally so that the polls and BCS seeding go well.
2006-08-18 12:44:03
445.   gibsonhobbs88
That should have been 435 I was referring to in my last comments!
2006-08-18 12:45:20
446.   dagwich
440 That's it. I was thinking Grabowski but knew that couldn't be right. There's only room for 1 Grabowski in my sports memory.

And since we've been discussing ancient Rose Bowl type history, who knows (without looking it up) what was unique about the 1942 Rose Bowl? A hint: it was the last Rose Bowl Duke played in (losing, of course).

2006-08-18 12:45:39
447.   GoBears
436 Just like the 1982 "Play" haunts Stanford fans, it's the 1990s game that grinds most Cal Fans' gears.

As I recall it (who knows any more if it's accurate), that winning drive for the red team included several fake roughing-the-passer calls and/or pass-interference calls. I think it was roughing. Stanford kept trying to lose, and the refs wouldn't let them. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. I imagine Daniel and Jon see it differently.

2006-08-18 12:49:16
448.   the OZ
446 That it was played at Duke?
2006-08-18 12:50:55
449.   Jon Weisman
447 - I can describe the ending to that game in detail if you like!
2006-08-18 12:51:26
450.   dagwich
448 Yup...but not so much that it was played at Duke but that it's the only one (so I have been told) not played at the Rose Bowl.
Show/Hide Comments 451-500
2006-08-18 12:51:52
451.   gibsonhobbs88
443- That should have been 435 as a reference in my last comments!
444- I do that too in all non-conference situations. I have supported the Pac-10 in bowl games, NCAA March Madness or CWS to win and get more attention out here. The West Coast vs. the East Coast Bias is what we are really fighting in the college sports.
2006-08-18 12:52:01
452.   overkill94
Here's how my Pac-10 hatred works out...

I grew up an Arizona fan since my parents went there, but that fandom mostly pertains to basketball. Thus, Stanford has always been a hated one, and of course ASU gets a little themselves.

Since I went to UCLA, any game USC plays in is obviously going to garner bad vibes against them, no matter what the implications.

Otherwise, as long as other Pac-10 teams winning doesn't screw up one of my team's chances of making a postseason of some sort, I'll root for them.

2006-08-18 12:53:12
453.   Vishal
[442] i actually wasn't at cal when they were good. my junior year they were 1-10 in football (2001). they hired tedford and went 7-5 the next year, but they still didn't get to a bowl game till after i graduated, and they didn't start to get decent in basketball till a couple of years ago. but yeah, i'm only 25.

i can't root too hard against SC, 'cause my dad went there.

2006-08-18 12:53:36
454.   GoBears
444. Yeah, I'm only the way I described in 442 about college basketball and football. In other college sports, I guess I feel the same way as you. And in pro sports, it's even more different. There are just teams I like and teams I don't and divisional organization doesn't seem to matter (likely because it changes so often). I used to hate the Reds and Braves - now I don't care. I used to hate the Yankees, and always will. I'll always want the Niners and Raiders and Vikings to do badly.

Ah sports loyalties - such complex phenomena.

But Go Dodgers, and stuff. Who's with me?

2006-08-18 12:56:40
455.   GoBears
453. Interesting. So your teams were bad, but there were people around who remembered bowl games and tourney appearances. In the late 80s, other than The Play, there were no good memories for anyone I met. Just year after year of awful (even Chuck Muncie was a bad memory). So 1-10 was just fine, if the 1 was against you know who. When it was SJSU or UOP, feh.
2006-08-18 12:56:46
456.   Vishal
i used to hate the braves too, because they ALWAYS beat us in the 90s. plus they seemed like a bunch of arrogant southerners. and back then they were still in the NL west, which made it even more maddening. but now i'm totally over it.
2006-08-18 12:56:49
457.   Daniel Zappala
447 I recall that game very well -- I was there in person and kept insisting to my buddies (who thought I was crazy) that Stanford would pull it out. I still insist that my faith in the team was a primary factor in them pulling out the game. I consider that win pay back and more for "The Play".

If I recall correctly, there was a penalty on the on-sides kick, then a pass interference, followed by the winning field goal. This after a touchdown with 16 seconds left and a failed two-point conversion. A big part of that game was the Cal fans storming the field when there was still time left, providing extra yardage via a delay of game penalty.

2006-08-18 12:59:31
458.   D4P
i used to hate the braves too, because they ALWAYS beat us in the 90s. plus they seemed like a bunch of arrogant southerners

Yep, yep, and yep.

2006-08-18 13:03:40
459.   Telemachos
I'm basically a Pac-10 homer -- whoever's winning tends to be who I follow.

Possibly this is because I grew up in the Bay Area, but didn't attend either Cal or Stanford -- so I liked either of them, depending on who was good. Then I went to college in Portland, OR... so it was fun rooting for the Ducks.

Now, here in SoCal, with my wife getting her masters at USC, I am a shameless Trojan fan.

Regardless, though, I'll generally root for any west coast team (minus the Giants and the Raiders) over an east coast team.

2006-08-18 13:04:17
460.   DXMachina
456 For me, it was the rednecks in the stands doing the chop that made me hate them. And Skip Carey.
2006-08-18 13:09:29
461.   Bob Timmermann
The Rose Bowl didn't open until 1923. Prior to that the New Year's Day game in Pasadena was played at Tournament Park, which is around where PCC is today.

In 1990, I was at the Rose Bowl, watching UCLA lose to USC, 45-42 in a game that went back and forth. Tommy Maddox had a great game... except for throwing two interceptions that got run back for TDs. I was very depressed after that game and walked back to my apartment in Pasadena. Then I turned on the Cal-Stanford game and got more depressed. Then my brother Jim and his wife took me out to Gus's Bar-B-Q in South Pasadena and I got even more depressed because the food was terrible.

I did see Robert Reed there. He did not look well.

2006-08-18 13:11:27
462.   D4P
rednecks in the stands doing the chop that made me hate them. And Skip Carey

Yep, and yep.

2006-08-18 13:13:16
463.   Greg Brock
461 Thanks for the memories, Bob.

{turns on gas oven}

2006-08-18 13:13:45
464.   bhsportsguy
I saw where Sean Burroughs was DFAed by Tampa Bay and I thought it was ironic considering it was the Little League World Series and as I recall, a Long Beach region team that defeated the mighty Taiwanese where Sean both pitched and hit a homer to help win the championship.

It also points out horribly San Diego has drafted over the past half decade or so. I did a quick review of drafts from 2002-2006 (Logan White era) and there are only 2 years where you could argue that the Dodger's draft was not among the top two for the division.

2002 - AZ - Chris Snyder, Lance Cormier, Dustin Nippert (5th)
S.D. - K. Greene (4th) (They also drafted Andy LaRoche but failed to sign him)
Colo - Jeff Francis (3rd)
L.A. - Broxton, Martin (would rank higher if Broxton moves to closer/starter) Loney is still prospect, Miller, Megrew, and Young are fringe right now. (T-1st)
S.F. - Cain, Correia (T-1st)

2003 - Its Los Angeles and Arizona, Billingsley, Kemp and LaRoche vs. Conor Jackson and Carlos Quentin, only Ian Stewart whose status seems stalled for Colorado brings another team into the picture. San Diego's number one pick, Tim Stauffer pitched last night in Vegas.

2004 -Again, L.A. and Arizona, Stephen Drew, L.A. with Scott Elbert, San Diego's number one pick of Matt Bush has been discussed on othe sites, Giants could have a sleeper in Jonathan Sanchez.

2005 - Not signing Hochevar, puts them behind, Arizona and Colorado, Arizona with Justin Upton and Colorado with Troy Tulowitzki are well ahead, San Diego's top pick is injured and the Dodgers have a lot sleepers with Meloan (has advanced 3 levels to AA, 6/1 K/BB ratio), Josh Bell, young 3B with power (Ogden), Steven Johnson and Scott Van Slyke. San Francisco did not pick until 4th round.

2006 - Obviously early, but the Dodgers are again near the top of the Division.

The point of this long commentary is that while the Dodgers only won one division during this time period, they never had a top ten pick until this year but with their drafts, along with Arizona (who had better draft position almost every year), are positioned to do battle for the rest of the decade.

2006-08-18 13:14:48
465.   Bob Timmermann
I've learned to appreciate Skip Caray more this year. With the Braves not being particularly good this year, he's still enjoying himself.

Keep in mind that at one point, the Braves players hated the Braves announcers because they pointed out that Javy Lopez was positioning himself outside the catcher's box. A certain Mr. Maddux did not appreciate that.

2006-08-18 13:17:54
466.   regfairfield
This article (via Deadspin) shows us why Cardinal fans don't boo.

If you do, you get kicked out.

2006-08-18 13:20:37
467.   Daniel Zappala
461 Geez, Bob, after a day like that it is a miracle you are still around. What keeps you going?
2006-08-18 13:21:20
468.   Bob Timmermann
I've learned not to care that much anymore.
2006-08-18 13:24:15
469.   bhsportsguy
465 Bob, did you hear that commentarty where Skip Caray said that the bases are loaded again and wishes he was too.

Almost crashed my car (heard it through my XM radio)

2006-08-18 13:24:23
470.   Marty
The Brewers have played the Yankees in the World Series?
2006-08-18 13:26:34
471.   Marty
Gus' BBQ is truly awful.
2006-08-18 13:26:40
472.   Bob Timmermann
But the Brewers weren't an NL team.

Besides, the Yankees and Brewers met in the 1981 playoffs.

2006-08-18 13:28:03
473.   Bob Timmermann
Leaving out words again.

But the Brewers weren't an NL team in 1982....

2006-08-18 13:28:24
474.   Marty
My hated teams:

Notre Dame

I want to beat UCLA every year, but I don't hate them.

2006-08-18 13:28:41
475.   Bob Timmermann

Yet, Gus's lives on and on and on and on.

2006-08-18 13:29:36
476.   Marty
475 They have good signage though.
2006-08-18 13:30:35
477.   Marty
I just got back from lunch at Phillipe's. Lamb dip with swiss and plenty of mustard.


2006-08-18 13:30:39
478.   xaphor
Rivalries in American sports pail in comparison to English football rivalries. This has less to do with the teams, their history or their success and more to do with cultural differences. Except for the minority, Americans have a lot more options for their entertainment dollar and tend to be less obsessive over any one particular form. In comparison the majority of the English live to work, drink, and watch football. People tie themselves to their team relishing in the highs and sulking in the lows as if the team were an extension of their own persona. It is not that the English care more about their team than Americans, but rather it is (relatively) all they care about.

From an Englishman's perspective you guys are much better off and you should enjoy your fun spirited rivalries and wish not for the obsessive ones that bring with them intolerance and hostility.

2006-08-18 13:31:35
479.   Bob Timmermann

You can't eat neon!

2006-08-18 13:32:26
480.   Daniel Zappala
The Yankees and Notre Dame are at the core of my axis of evil. I used to hate the Celtics and Cowboys, but neither has done anything lately. Age has also mellowed me, because I now look back fondly on the Lakers-Celtics rivalry and can appreciate how good the Celtics were. I suspect that Lakers fans get a lot more satisfaction over their years versus the Celtics than the Bulls fans get from Jordan's dominance since there was no single rival for them to beat each year.
2006-08-18 13:34:45
481.   Marty
I don't care about pro football anymore, yet I still hate Dallas and Minnesota.
2006-08-18 13:39:25
482.   Bob Timmermann
The rivalry games this afternoon have been pretty dreary affairs.

Yankees/Cardinals - 21
Cubs/Red Sox - 6

2006-08-18 13:41:30
483.   bhsportsguy
Beating the Yankees in 1981 and the Celtics in 1985 remain the highlights of my years being a fan of the Dodgers and Lakers. Also, because the 1981 team still had many of the players of the 1977 and 1978 teams made that victory more meaningful, not sure it would have been the same if there was a lot of turnover, the Laker win came right after the 7 game loss in 1984 so it was real sweet, especially watching the pained look in Red Auerbach's face as his team lost on their home court.

I agree with 481 but I still can't fine myself rooting for the Cowboys.

2006-08-18 13:42:19
484.   KG16
As a Dodger fan, I know it's not entirely right to root for los Yanqis, but... is it really wrong to root for one of these teams to win all five games this weekend so ESPN will finally stop talking about the Yanks-Sawx?
2006-08-18 13:42:32
485.   bhsportsguy
482 Hopefully the trend of the road team thrashing the home team continues tonight.
2006-08-18 13:43:28
486.   bhsportsguy
484 They will never stop talking about them so you might as well prepare yourself for a 20 minute analysis of this series for the entire weekend.
2006-08-18 13:43:32
487.   D4P
There doesn't seem to be enough 49er hate around here as there should be...
2006-08-18 13:44:47
488.   KG16
487 - you're talking about the one's from SF and not the one's from Long Beach, right?
2006-08-18 13:44:56
489.   Jon Weisman
Now see, I could have just written two sentences about rivalries in a new thread, and I wouldn't feel like I had neglected Dodger Thoughts today.
2006-08-18 13:45:28
490.   KG16
486 - yeah, I know, but a guy can dream, right?
2006-08-18 13:45:36
491.   Marty
Hating the Bird/Ainge/Mcwhatshisname Celtics was really easy. Especially with Ainge. He was like the David Eckstein of the NBA.
2006-08-18 13:45:40
492.   Daniel Zappala
487 Another case of them being really bad lately. They were also squarely in the axis of evil, but first it was difficult to root against Steve Young, and now they are just pathetic.
2006-08-18 13:46:24
493.   Bob Timmermann
Since the 49ers are the laughingstock of the NFL now, nobody really bothers to hate them.
2006-08-18 13:47:02
494.   Daniel Zappala
489 I figured you had enough on your plate today. And see, the kids have grown big enough that they can play on their own now.
2006-08-18 13:47:28
495.   KG16
492 - see, I had no problem rooting against Steve Young... Jerry Rice and Joe Montana was a bit more difficult
2006-08-18 13:47:41
496.   D4P
I found it very easy to root against Steve Young. It's true, though, that I hate them less not that they are struggling. But Joe Montana's teams were probably my most hated of all-time in any sport, followed closely by Steve Young's.
2006-08-18 13:48:36
497.   blue22
The 49ers rival the Lakers as my #2 team behind the Dodgers. It's been difficult to throw my support behind them recently, but I won't ever ditch them. In fact, I just drafted two Niners on my fantasy team.
2006-08-18 13:48:45
498.   bhsportsguy
I saw a note in the LA Times yesterday where Maddux volunteered to pitch an inning during Wednesday's blowout and according to the article, Sele pitching on back to back days sounds like it was his choice to go out there.

Again, I think winning permeates all the chemistry stuff but I have to think that all is well in Dodgerland.

2006-08-18 13:50:08
499.   Jon Weisman
Today's Understatement of the Day

This article summarizes the movie, "Deliverance," by calling it: "the film about four Atlanta businessmen who have unpleasant encounters with locals during a North Georgia canoe trip."

2006-08-18 13:51:23
500.   D4P
I've never fans who root for combinations of LA and SF teams. They're mutually exclusive, as far as I'm concerned.
Show/Hide Comments 501-550
2006-08-18 13:51:27
501.   bhsportsguy
497 Hopefully it was some classic league so you could pick up Roger Craig and Jerry Rice.
2006-08-18 13:51:32
502.   Bob Timmermann
When you have the day off from work and have the chance to watch two day games, they should at least have a veneer of excitement.

I want the four hours of my life back!

2006-08-18 13:52:48
503.   Penarol1916
478. English futbol rivalries are nothing compared to what goes on in South America. I have yet to see an English fan so obsessed that they kidnap their rival's star player (Yeah, Penarol's fans did it, but only once, Boca Juniors' fans have done it multiple times to River Plate).
2006-08-18 13:53:39
504.   bhsportsguy
502 According to the latest blog entry on Inside The Dodgers, Josh said that Jamie McCourt has given everyone the afternoon off after that afternoon ice cream social.
2006-08-18 13:53:55
505.   D4P
Were you at least scoring at home...?
2006-08-18 13:54:05
506.   Bob Timmermann

That actor got a pardon because he obviously squealed.

2006-08-18 13:55:43
507.   Jon Weisman
500 - I rooted for the 49ers for a while after the Rams left Los Angeles, and even when the Rams were still here and it didn't affect them.

I also had a temporary soft spot for Al Attles once.

2006-08-18 13:56:20
508.   ssjames
505 What goes on in Bob's bedroom is his own business, and I think talking about might violate the rules.
2006-08-18 13:56:51
509.   blue22
496 - I have an affinity for lefty QB's. Young and Cade McNown are my alltime favorite football players, period. Matt Leinart actually got me rooting for the Trojans the last couple of years.
2006-08-18 13:57:20
510.   Marty
499 He had one of the best lines in the movie.
2006-08-18 13:57:55
511.   Humma Kavula
I once saw The Wizard of Oz described this way:

Stranger in a foreign land commits murder; joins with three strangers to kill again.

2006-08-18 14:01:36
512.   Marty
511 That's hilarious. I just sent that to a friend who is a Wizard of Oz fanatic.
2006-08-18 14:03:07
513.   capdodger
409 I love the commenters on Bronx Banter complaining about a Boston bias by ESPN. It seems to me every third word on ESPN is Yankee.

They might have a legit gripe. The other two-thirds of ESPN's words are "Red" and "Sox".

2006-08-18 14:03:10
514.   blue22
500 - Right, I get that a lot. I justify by saying "I'm not an LA guy". My dad instilled the Dodger obsession in me, and they will always be my first love. I couldn't ever really get into the Rams, since they were Anaheim by the time I started following football. I don't feel like I should be obligated to following an Orange County team over a Bay Area team, simply due to geographical logistics.

As for the Raiders, no way. Never. Not in a million years would I root for that team. Well, until they get another lefty QB, that is. ;)

2006-08-18 14:03:29
515.   Terry A
I just checked Baseball Musing's continuing coverage of the NY/BOS game(s), and one of Pinto's updates is headlined: Torre Pulls Wang.

I swear I am not making this up.

2006-08-18 14:04:37
516.   blue22
501 - Frank Gore and Antonio Bryant. Sleepers du jour!
2006-08-18 14:04:59
517.   Jon Weisman
508 - I like to imagine "ssjames" is Susan Saint James. I'm having trouble deciding if that comment is in her nature.
2006-08-18 14:06:16
518.   Terry A
"Baseball Musings*'*"

Or, at BP: Baseball Musings?

2006-08-18 14:08:27
519.   Daniel Zappala
I have to admit, I rooted for the Raiders when Plunkett was their QB.
2006-08-18 14:11:09
520.   fanerman
In the period of time when I was a kid and I didn't care too much about football, I, based on geography, considered San Diego to be my "hometown" team.

I like the Chargers some. The 49ers a little. The Raiders not really. But I'm not much of a football fan. I find it unnecessarily complicated.

2006-08-18 14:11:20
521.   Robert Daeley
You know what's fun? Compiling a 25-man team of players who are still in the league who either--

* Were traded from or left the Dodgers under controversial circumstances, or arguably should not have left.
* Nearly came to the Dodgers but didn't due to some bad decision-making or mistakes.

So far this is my favorite page:

Just based on that, dig the outfield of Gary Sheffield, Vladimir Guerrero, and Jim Edmonds, maybe with Todd Hollandsworth and Juan Encarnacion off the bench. ;)

Starting pitchers, of course, have to include Pedro Martinez. I would add Gary Maddux to that due to his trying to come here in 2004. Who else? Randy Johnson maybe, from when DePo's deal fell through.

Lo Duca and Piazza behind the plate, naturally.

Paul Konerko at first, Beltre at 3B, Izturis at SS?

2006-08-18 14:11:54
522.   Penarol1916
I just found out that my old Little League made the World Series, and I am shocked at how many teams make it now, which must be the only way they could have made it.
2006-08-18 14:14:41
523.   capdodger
500 They sure aren't if you grew up in the Central Valley. (Shout out to my peeps back in the 559)
2006-08-18 14:15:56
524.   Penarol1916
523. Yolo County for life, dog.
2006-08-18 14:17:50
525.   blue22
521 - Jim Edmonds?

And I simply can't approve Sheffield and Piazza on the roster at the same time, based on the space-time continuum.

2006-08-18 14:19:49
526.   blue22
Rafael Furcal just said "thanks" via email to me.

What, no phone call?

2006-08-18 14:19:53
527.   Telemachos
Niners and Dodgers all the way. :) In fact, I started following both teams pretty much around the same time -- 1984ish.
2006-08-18 14:21:49
528.   Robert Daeley
2006-08-18 14:22:34
529.   Vishal
universities/sports teams i hate:

sf giants
ny yankees
la angels
texas (ut)
sacramento kings
sf 49ers
dallas cowboys
utah jazz
manchester united

man, i could do this all day. i have a lot of hate in my sports life.

2006-08-18 14:23:05
530.   capdodger
524 - Yolo County? I thought 559 ran from Modesto to the Kern-Tulare County line.

Yolo is in 916, isn't it?

2006-08-18 14:24:04
531.   blue22
Ah yes, the Valdez for Edmunds "deal". I remember now.
2006-08-18 14:26:08
532.   Penarol1916
530. To be perfectly honest, I only lived in Yolo County when I was 10, and that was the closest I ever lived to the Dodgers.
2006-08-18 14:26:23
533.   blue22
529 - Wow, you are LA through and through, aren't ya?

Not sure which category "England" and "France" fall into though...

2006-08-18 14:28:24
534.   capdodger
Not sure which category "England" and "France" fall into though...

I'm betting soccer, or rugby.

2006-08-18 14:29:02
535.   Bob Timmermann
Wow, I never knew Penarol was from Saipan!
2006-08-18 14:29:39
536.   fanerman
529 - My top 3 hated teams is the same as yours, though perhaps in a different order.
2006-08-18 14:29:44
537.   blue22
534 - I was thinking more in the lines of:

universities/sports teams i hate:

2006-08-18 14:30:21
538.   Johnson
To alleviate confusion, post 532 is not only in response to post 530, but is also confirming that the area code in Yolo County is 530. Interesting coincidence.
2006-08-18 14:30:40
539.   3upn3down
533, 534 I would include France in hatred around Cycling as well.
2006-08-18 14:31:10
540.   blue22
529 - Notre Dame is conspicuously absent though. What gives?
2006-08-18 14:32:48
541.   Penarol1916
529. That's a lot like me, mine is primarily concentrated in the college ranks, but also sprinkled with pro teams:

Boston College
Florida St.
North Carolina
The Ohio State University
University of Washington
Notre Dame




The entire EPL
AC Milan
Real Madrid
Every European National Team except for Spain
and #1 on the List:

2006-08-18 14:34:42
542.   Marty
I used to really hate Ohio State and I got a big kick out of Woody Hayes comitting professional suicide. But it's hard to hate them now.
2006-08-18 14:36:18
543.   Penarol1916
535. Close, but not quite.
2006-08-18 14:38:10
544.   Vishal
team england and team france were for soccer. and for the olympics too, i guess.

[541] that reminds me, the florida schools, notre dame, and ole miss are on my list. but they're more like "on notice" than "dead to me".

i also hate the pats, though.

you hate syracuse? aww. :/

2006-08-18 14:38:19
545.   Bluebleeder87
Yolo County? I thought 559 ran from Modesto to the Kern-Tulare County line.

shout out to Porterville! (I have family there)

2006-08-18 14:39:42
546.   Penarol1916
544. Went to Georgetown, I'm required to hate Syracuse, although not as much as other Big East schools that I forgot, like Villanova, Pittsburgh, and UConn.
2006-08-18 14:39:46
547.   Vishal
529 - Wow, you are LA through and through, aren't ya?

born and raised :)

2006-08-18 14:40:14
548.   3upn3down
Many people aren't fond of ND now, but anyone between the ages of 27 and 35 probably was watching ND football at a highly impressionable part of their life when that era that included Lou Holtz, Tim Brown, Chris Zorich, and Rocket Ismail along with all of those amazing RBs from the late 80s early 90s where there.

I know when I was in 5th grade, Tim Brown could do no wrong in my eyes, even as a kid growing up in Houston who watched Brown play A&M in the Cotton Bowl.

but now as a devout USC fan, I am supposed to dislike ND. I do, but it is still a weird dislike. Nothing like the lifelong hatred of the SF giants or KC Chiefs (as a raider fan).

They were just very special at a time when I was looking for something to begin following.

2006-08-18 14:40:52
549.   Jon Weisman
Vishal seems like such a nice guy. And yet he just overflows with hate :)
2006-08-18 14:41:33
550.   Marty
Kenosha WI man recreates Smothers Brothers routine:

Show/Hide Comments 551-600
2006-08-18 14:43:00
551.   blue22
548 - I'm the other way. I used to have much more hostility directed towards ND (and Duke), but I'm now much more tolerant.
2006-08-18 14:43:48
552.   fanerman
529 - Actually, Vishal, I pretty much hate very team you do (well, hate may be too strong of a word for me). Except I'm indifferent to soccer and don't have much of a hatred for Oklahoma.
2006-08-18 14:43:54
553.   Marty
I will never, ever stop hating ND.
2006-08-18 14:43:59
554.   Penarol1916
548. Oh, that's when I came of age in sports. I remember them getting lucky to beat Miami at home in 88 and refusing to play them in a rematch in a bowl game and instead going for the easier game against Major Harris and West Virginia. That Cotton Bowl against A&M was my first exposure to them and I remember Brown being the biggest baby about someone grabbing his precious towel.
2006-08-18 14:45:18
555.   Vishal
[549] it's only with regard to sports, thankfully. sport brings out the latent tribalism in me i guess.
2006-08-18 14:46:53
556.   3upn3down
554. Yeah, I was trying to recall the "towel" incident. Is my mind just making up events, or did he get ejected at the end of that game for an altercation after the "towel" incident?
2006-08-18 14:50:22
557.   blue22
I don't passionately dislike any college teams really anymore. UCLA (my team) doesn't have any other major rivalries other than SC in football, and there isn't enough roster continuity in basketball to really summon the hate. It was easy to hate the old Hurley/Laettner Duke teams because they were around for 4 years. Now you really have to dislike the school, and I just can't pull that one off.
2006-08-18 14:52:20
558.   3upn3down
Jon, have you ever wrote of, or at least thought about the significance of these comments threads? It is fascinating to watch the discussion weave from one topic to the next. Some times your corresponding post to DT carries the discussion throughout, other times it is lost in the left turns and right that the discussion naturally takes before we reach our first 50 posts.

It is very cool to go back and look at old threads. They are almost like daily time capsules.

Anyhow, I digress.

2006-08-18 14:55:48
559.   Jon Weisman
558 - I often find my post is irrelevant by comment #1.

I do enjoy the comments, though. I love the meanderings, which is why I don't mind that we don't have threaded comments.

2006-08-18 14:57:43
560.   Penarol1916
556. I honestly don't remember if he got ejected, I could probably look it up, but I am heading out the door right now.
2006-08-18 14:57:47
561.   Jon Weisman
Bronx Banter has opened a new thread with their comments in the previous thread at 960.
2006-08-18 14:59:11
562.   Marty
Dodger Thoughts. Come for the game, stay for the comments.

That has a familiar ring to it....say where are those t-shirts we were supposed to get?

2006-08-18 14:59:21
563.   Terry A
I love how there's no rhyme or reason to the hatred. Teams/Schools are chosen at random for reasons known only to the particular commenters, and sometimes they likely don't know why. You can almost picture them shaking a threatening fist at some unknown enemy.

"...Middle Tennessee State... BUMPUSES!"

2006-08-18 15:05:50
564.   Daniel Zappala
563 A lot of that comes from the NCAA tournament. Hence the irrational hatred for teams like Siena.
2006-08-18 15:12:22
565.   3upn3down
I did a search and I don't believe Tim Brown was ejected for the towel incidient. At least no mention of it. It started a brawl however.

2006-08-18 15:15:34
566.   Jon Weisman
562 - Still waiting for a design. I have a concept - a couple of commenters or their signficant others have taken a shot at it but I think found my desires hard to satisfy. If anyone's interested in taking a shot, though, let me know.

564 - Urgh ... Siena.

2006-08-18 15:17:20
567.   fanerman
562 - I'd love to have official (or unofficial) Dodger Thoughts t-shirts. Wasn't that supposed to happen a long time ago? All I have is my "Ghame Over" Yhency t-shirt.

Personally, I'd love to have a t-shirt that says "Dodger Thoughts, like TiVo, is one of those things you can completely do without until you start using it." My one and only claim to fame.

2006-08-18 15:18:14
568.   fanerman
567 - repeating phrases is what I get for taking 5 minutes to get a drink between sentences.
2006-08-18 15:18:37
569.   Marty
I'm seeing a Rodin statue with a glove on his hand and a Dodger cap on his head....
2006-08-18 15:19:50
570.   Bluebleeder87
say where are those t-shirts we were supposed to get?

that would be sweet!.

2006-08-18 15:24:10
571.   Jon Weisman
569 - You're right about the Thinker part, wrong about the part that might come close to copyright infringement.
2006-08-18 15:24:17
572.   Bluebleeder87
If anyone's interested in taking a shot, though, let me know.

I'm taking a shot of jimadores,with squirt :o)(crushed ice)

2006-08-18 15:27:42
573.   Jon Weisman

The original slogan winner, "Thinking or Think outside the boxscore," I eliminated because it was too close to the name of another blog.

So it became, "Where the game is never over," which is a little more poignant now with Gagne out.

A Dodger blog with mustard or A Dodger blog with relish were also good choices.

2006-08-18 15:29:53
574.   fanerman
573 - I still like my testimonial idea =)
2006-08-18 15:30:26
575.   Telemachos
566, etc -- not to shill tremendously, but I've got a friend with a screenprinting business who has really good rates. A simple design without tons of colors should be quite cheap.
2006-08-18 15:32:33
576.   Jon Weisman
575 - Shill all you want - I need the design first, though.
2006-08-18 15:33:55
577.   Bob Timmermann
A t-shirt for the Griddle would have to blend together my two most popular topics:

1) Harold Reynolds
2) The planet Pluto

A slogan in Korean would help too.

2006-08-18 15:35:11
578.   Bluebleeder87
How about a "vote for pedro" type shirt simple but to the point no?
2006-08-18 15:35:46
579.   JoeyP
The biggest player in little league world series history is on ESPN2 right now.

Saudi Arabia's 1st basemen is 6'8 256# and wears a size 19 shoe. He's bigger than Shaq was at age 13.

They also have another player thats 6'3 190# and is 12 yrs old.

2006-08-18 15:38:01
580.   blue22
573 - Wow, it's already been over a year since that contest...
2006-08-18 15:38:19
581.   Bluebleeder87
those guys are not 12.IMO.
2006-08-18 15:38:39
582.   D4P
It'd probably be easier to come up with a slogan that combines Harold Reynolds and Uranus...
2006-08-18 15:40:09
583.   blue22
582 - I knew there was a joke in there somewhere, and D4P knocked it out of the park.
2006-08-18 15:56:46
584.   D4P
Looks like it was a walk-off. Thread over.
2006-08-18 15:58:20
585.   Bluebleeder87
Sabermatric challenged = me would be a cool shirt for me, but there's alot of sabermatric's DTer's here.
2006-08-18 15:59:44
586.   blue22
584 - Guess I should've stuck with the safer "LOL".
2006-08-18 15:59:50
587.   Bluebleeder87

like Jon says all points of view are welcomed.

2006-08-18 16:08:44
588.   Daniel Zappala
Here is my stab at a basic t-shirt:

2006-08-18 16:08:50
589.   Xeifrank
T-Shirts, mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... Close but yet so far away. vr, Xei
2006-08-18 16:11:18
590.   D4P
Perhaps the most obvious t-shirt design involves a photo of Danica and a "Do the Math"-related slogan
2006-08-18 16:13:13
591.   Bluebleeder87

nice but I'd go with white & blue lettering.

2006-08-18 16:17:29
592.   Daniel Zappala
591 Look at the logo at the top of this page.
2006-08-18 16:20:11
593.   Mr Customer
585 Not to worry, it's pretty much pluralistic society in the comments. Live-and-let-live, now with 43.2% less blind rage!

566 Jon, I could always give the wardrobe design a shot. You're pretty discerning, but I have absolutely no fear of abject failure. That, and a heck of a lot of hours in design studio, have to count for something.

you can send info to dave5613_at_gmail dot_com

2006-08-18 16:24:19
594.   DXMachina
546 Heh, I went to Seton Hall, so my list used to include Georgetown, but not so much since the original Thompson left.

Hate's a strong word. Here are the teams that are dead to me.

Red Sox
St. Johns
North Carolina
Red Sox (because they can't be dead enough for me)

2006-08-18 16:25:07
595.   Jon Weisman
588 - That's frankly not bad. But my wife will insist on the Thinker image being incorporated. 593, take note :)
2006-08-18 16:47:19
596.   Bob Timmermann
I always knew that DXMachina was really Dick Vitale.
2006-08-18 16:53:47
597.   Eric Enders
Dead to me:
Texas A&M
The S.E.C.
Florida State

On notice:
New Mexico

2006-08-18 16:57:50
598.   Bluebleeder87

The San Francisco Giants

2006-08-18 17:03:46
599.   DXMachina
596 Hah! I once spent a very enjoyable two hours with my buddies sitting directly behind the University of Detroit's bench needling Vitale. His face really turns some impressive shade of red when he's upset (SHU was crushing Detroit that night). Boy, I miss the days of first come, first serve seating at college basketball games.

I didn't find out Vitale was a fellow alumnus until after he got out of coaching. (Which was a wise move on his part. He was headed for stroke city.)

2006-08-18 17:05:28
600.   Suffering Bruin
I check in and I get to be 600? Cool...
Show/Hide Comments 601-650
2006-08-18 17:07:45
601.   Bob Timmermann
Stroke City, baby! We're talking ICU here! We're talking serious cerebral hermorrhage time! Stroke city!
2006-08-18 17:09:30
602.   Daniel Zappala
Jon, I was not aware of the Thinker requirement. How are these:

2006-08-18 17:16:42
603.   DXMachina
601 PTA, Baybee!

(Prime time apoplectic)

2006-08-18 17:18:38
604.   Daniel Zappala
If there is anyone on my dead to me list, it would be Dick Vitale. He is my Frank Robinson.
2006-08-18 17:20:29
605.   Linkmeister
Hawai'i has its share of 49er fans; in fact, the morning paper just did a poll and learned that of the 500 or so people who bothered to take it, the Niners got about 55%. The rest seemed to be split between Raiders and Rams fans, as I recall. You gotta remember that the West Coast teams are as close as we get to pro football.

The Dodgers used to be the baseball team, but their biggest booster passed away and his restaurants were sold; now it's Giants baseball on the radio on weekends instead of Dodgers.

The only college team I despise is ASU, but that's natural for a UofA alum. I don't like the Raiders in the pros. Baseball I'd say I dislike the Giants first with the Yankees a close second. I used to like the Red Sox, but ESPN's incessant bleating about them has driven me away.

2006-08-18 17:24:33
606.   Jon Weisman
602 - I'll show my marketing director when I get home :)
2006-08-18 17:27:04
607.   Jon Weisman
Game thread open
2006-08-18 17:27:05
608.   Disabled List
Abject hatred and loathing:
SF Giants
Anaheim Angels of Anaheim
SF 49ers
San Antonio Spurs
Colorado Avalanche
Notre Dame
All college football teams from Florida

Used to hate, now just disdain:
All NY sports teams
Atlanta Braves
Boston Celtics

Used to hate, now kinda like:
Chicago Bulls
Seattle Supersonics
Edmonton Oilers

2006-08-18 17:27:15
609.   DXMachina
I used to like Vitale, but I got tired of him constantly defending Jim Harrick every time Harrick wrecked another program.
2006-08-18 17:28:08
610.   Greg Brock
Man, you guys really knocked this thread out of the park. One of the bestest threads I've read in a while. It was the Ethiest.

Comment status: comments have been closed. Baseball Toaster is now out of business.