Baseball Toaster Dodger Thoughts
Jon Weisman's outlet
for dealing psychologically
with the Los Angeles Dodgers
and baseball.
Frozen Toast
Google Search
Dodger Thoughts

02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

09  08  07 
About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Mile 20
2006-08-23 07:50
by Jon Weisman

You can have it both ways if you want.

You can dream of dancing among the clouds when the Dodgers win 17 out of 18 and then dream of their graves when they lose four out of six, not to mention 10 of their past 11 to San Diego.

But the season is a marathon, and not even the champion wins every mile. The champions win despite their limitations, not because those limitations don't exist.

While it was surprising to see the Dodgers play .944 ball for nearly three weeks, they never stopped being a team that could drop two in a row to their closest division rival. The significance of the current series in San Diego is only that it reminds those who had forgotten that no one has unrolled a blue carpet for the Dodgers to reach the postseason. The Dodgers are going to have to run the marathon that much longer.

And they may yet lose. We know that all too well.

Still, if the Dodgers weren't 3-10 against San Diego, they'd be 3-10 against some other team. San Diego is 14-24 against the other National League West teams. It's not a mental block. It's baseball. If you take pleasure in the Dodgers taking out the National League ERA leader in Florida during the winning streak, you have to accept them losing to a No. 1 draft choice called up from the minors in San Diego during the brief losing streak.

In fact, there was a real positive to take from the latest loss Tuesday. Mark Hendrickson had his best game as a Dodger. Whatever advantages there were in facing the San Diego Padres offense in San Diego, California, at least Hendrickson showed he was capable of taking advantage of them, reinforcing the fact that he's not truly awful, just depressingly inconsistent and therefore merely mediocre.

Unfortunately, the Dodgers were at the disadvantage of facing Jake Peavy, still the Padres' most talented pitcher. As a statistical analysis by Rich Lederer last month on Baseball Analysts showed, Peavy has been very much the same pitcher that he was last year, despite his disappointing win-loss record - and now he has a much-needed stronger set of contact lenses to boot. (Vin Scully said on the broadcast last night that Peavy is legally blind without them.) To me, it's says more about the two teams that the Dodgers held San Diego to one run with their No. 5 starter than the Dodgers getting shut out by the Padres' No. 1.

The Dodgers are a package that reaches base at an above-average rate, sometimes gets good pitching, but struggles with the home run and occasionally gets hammered. This is a package that is going to win some and lose some. With six miles to go in the race, I don't know how one could know how it will turn out. All I know is that the performance against one team doesn't matter all that much.

In other notes:

  • Chad Billingsley's run-allowing wild pitch against the Padres Monday was changed to a passed ball against Russell Martin, and in turn an unearned run, according to Bill Plunkett of the Register.

  • Eric Gagne claims he'll give the Dodgers a "hometown discount" after the Dodgers buy out his 2007 option, according to Tony Jackson of the Daily News, but according to Plunkett, he hasn't discusssed this with Boras. Nevertheless, Jackson reports that Gagne plans to retain "full control" of the negotiations.

    "(Boras) is my agent," Gagne told Jackson. "I'm not his player."

    Dodger general manager Ned Colletti didn't sound overcome with optimism.

    "I guess we're open-minded," Colletti said to Jackson. "We'll see where the winter takes us."

  • Victor Diaz, who went to the New York Mets in the Jeromy Burnitz trade and hit 12 homers in 280 at-bats in 2005, was designated for assignment to make room on the roster for newly acquired Shawn Green. Diaz was 2 for 11 in the majors this season and slumped to a .609 OPS in AAA.

    According to Allison Ann Otto of the Press-Enterprise, Dodger manager Grady Little is happy to see the otherwise unproductive Green (below-average .258 EQA this season) go out of sight for a while.

    "Anytime somebody gets rid of an ex-Dodger we appreciate it," Little said. "It seems like they've done a lot of damage against us."

    Green is batting .439 (18 for 41) with two home runs and seven RBI against the Dodgers this year.

    Some are wondering about the Diamondbacks trading Green while still in the race for the division title, but with players like talented rookie Carlos Quentin (from Stanford) having arrived and needing playing time, others are calling it addition by subtraction.

  • Nomar Garciaparra earned $500,000 for notching his 400th plate appearance Tuesday, as Steve Henson of the Times reminds us, and will earn another half a mil every time he gets another 25 (up to 575). With 36 games and maybe 150 plate appearances left in the season, that could easily turn into $3 million - which, of course, is well worth it if he keeps hitting.

  • From Bob Ryan of the Boston Globe (via Morning Briefing in the Times):

    The truth is that in this perverted sports climate, the other team is never just allowed to be better, even for a day, let alone a series or a season. No, no. Blame must be affixed. Heads must be severed.

    Once upon a time, losing brought a brief period of sorrow. Now it brings rage. The rest of the season, I fear, will not be much fun.

    Let's not be like that.

  • Headline in the Times:

    Blake Is Upset at the Pilot Pen

    Guess he'll be using Bic from now on.

  • Comments (351)
    Show/Hide Comments 1-50
    2006-08-23 07:59:20
    1.   Eric Enders
    "(Boras) is my agent," Gagne told Jackson. "I'm not his player."

    Those are beautiful words to hear, all the moreso because I think it's the first time I've ever seen one of Boras's clients say something like that.

    I for one would really like Gagne to remain a Dodger. (And I'm not saying that just because it results in me becoming an object of curiosity whenever I enter a Dodger clubhouse. ;)

    2006-08-23 08:00:17
    2.   DXMachina
    "Anytime somebody gets rid of an ex-Dodger we appreciate it," Little said. "It seems like they've done a lot of damage against us."

    Grady, buddy, do you not remember that the Dodgers still have a series with the Mets (at Shea) coming up in 2+ weeks?

    2006-08-23 08:26:28
    3.   King of the Hobos
    In other Boras news, Carlos Lee has switched agents from Adam Katz to Boras.
    2006-08-23 08:30:34
    4.   D4P
    In related news, Satan carves another notch in his belt
    2006-08-23 08:51:53
    5.   Eric Stephen
    Jon once again stars as the Voice of Reason in the Dodger Thoughts stage production of "A Season on the Brink".

    I'm glad to see Gagne is willing to take a "hometown discount". I hope he remains a Dodger. My Dodger t-shirt collection would devlove further into irrelevance if he left.

    2006-08-23 09:00:40
    6.   Jon Weisman
    While it's nice to see Gagne assert his authority over Boras, Gagne has never struck me as someone who lives and breathes Dodger blue. Maybe he'll take a discount, but I don't know how much - and overall, I suspect there is some media posturing here. The Dodgers will be in an awkward position, remember. They have a negotiating deadline that the other 29 teams won't have because of the flawed arbitration rules.
    2006-08-23 09:05:50
    7.   blue22
    Does Gagne's situation slightly resemble Maddux's situation regarding offseason negotiations? I mean, LA would like to have both back next year (presumably) but offering arbitration to either means owing a minimum of $8-ish million bucks.

    Obviously (I think), both players will not be offered arbi, so what's the deal? Do they try to work something out pre-arbitration?

    2006-08-23 09:07:17
    8.   Blaine
    Jon, I also thought about the Tour de France. I would see highlights and see that Lance Armstrong finished 10th or 15th on a particular day, but the most important thing was that on the last day of the race he was always wearing the yellow jersey.
    2006-08-23 09:10:19
    9.   Bob Timmermann
    Baseball needs a warning like they have on prospectuses for investments:

    Past results do not guarantee future performance.

    2006-08-23 09:12:07
    10.   Eric Stephen
    Yeah, I wonder if the 2004 arbitration process is still stinging in the back (or the front) of Gagne's mind.

    Here you have a player, coming off one of the greatest seasons a reliever has ever had, and winning the Cy Young, and he has to listen to his team argue that he isn't worth $8 million.

    (Gagne submitted an $8m salary figure, which would have shattered the record for a pitcher with his service time; the Dodgers submitted a $5m figure and won the case)

    2006-08-23 09:16:03
    11.   Bob Timmermann

    But Gagne wasn't worth $8 million then. And it's not hindsight. A salary of that amount would have been so far out of line with other salaries, that it would have been more ridiculous than Kevin Brown's contract.

    From people I've heard who work in arbitration hearings, players don't take it personally unless the teams try to drag in the player's personal life.

    2006-08-23 09:16:09
    12.   popup
    I think Gagne is going to be taking quite a discount from his salary from the past two years no matter where he goes in 2007. I would like to see him back as long as "Game Over" is gone as a slogan. I never liked that phrase, even when Gagne was at his best.

    Jon, how long is that guy with his hands around his throat going to be on the site? That won't be a pretty picture if the Dodgers go on another long losing streak. I am sure glad you did not have this blog back in 1962 with that same picture.

    Stan from Tacoma

    2006-08-23 09:19:01
    13.   Jon Weisman
    LOL, Stan. That ad expires Friday.
    2006-08-23 09:19:38
    14.   D4P
    he has to listen to his team argue that he isn't worth $8 million

    The man gets no RESPECT

    2006-08-23 09:19:58
    15.   Robert Daeley
    5 I prefer the 1955 production of that show, with the original title "This Is Next Year" ;)
    2006-08-23 09:20:50
    16.   Bob Timmermann
    The Mets are apparently still interested in acquiring Moises Alou.

    Apparently they think Carlos Beltran can cover a lot of ground in the outfield.

    2006-08-23 09:21:07
    17.   Eric Stephen
    11 Bob, I agree that Gagne wasn't worth $8m then. I was just pointing out that the process might still be stuck in Gagne's craw.
    2006-08-23 09:22:40
    18.   blue22
    So what happens? Gagne is not offered arbitration, and thus becomes a free agent? Or is there a window to negotiate a contract with him, before he's fair game to the rest of the league?
    2006-08-23 09:23:45
    19.   Robert Daeley
    16 I'm surprised they're not going after Juan Encarnacion or Steve Finley as they continue to re-assemble the 2004 Dodgers. How much you wanna bet they go after Gagne in the off-season?
    2006-08-23 09:26:33
    20.   regfairfield
    I thought that you couldn't negotate with a player if you declined arbitration. Wasn't that why we couldn't resign Jose Lima (other than the fact that he stinks)?
    2006-08-23 09:28:42
    21.   D4P
    I think I'd prefer the 2004 Dodgers over the 2005 Devil Rays
    2006-08-23 09:29:23
    22.   blue22
    20 - That's why I'm confused as to how LA could resign Gagne or Maddux at a less-than-arbitration amount. How could it happen?
    2006-08-23 09:30:51
    23.   Bob Timmermann
    In a game on September 17, 1963 in St. Louis, Cardinals pitcher Lou Burdette was seen giving the Dodgers the "choke" sign as the Cardinals shrank the Dodgers lead to three games with ten left

    The next day, rookie Dick Nen homered in the ninth off of Ron Taylor to cap off a Dodger comeback and tie the game at 5-5 after the Cardinals led 5-1 going to the 8th.

    Then in the bottom of the 10th, Dick Groat got a leadoff triple against Ron Perranoski, but got out of it thanks to Curt Flood grounding into a force play at the plate and Mike Shannon grounding out.

    In the 12th, Willie Davis singled, went to third on a Julian Javier error and then scored on a ground out by Maury Wills. All this came off of Burdette.

    The Dodgers won 6-5 and were up by four games with nine left.

    2006-08-23 09:33:25
    24.   King of the Hobos
    22 You're allowed to re-sign players before the arbitration deadline in December. During that time, you can re-sign a player to any size of contract, but it's rare to have players sign during this time because they feel they can get more money on the open market after the deadline.
    2006-08-23 09:33:27
    25.   Eric Stephen
    The Dodgers will have until some date in mid-December (on or around Dec 15; I haven't found the exact date) to decide whether or not to offer arbitration to Gagne (or Maddux).

    Up until that time, they are free to negotiate with the player.

    2006-08-23 09:35:40
    26.   the OZ
    Regarding Gagne's arbitration:

    I had a chance to speak with the lawyer that handled the case for the Dodgers. Contrary to popular belief, Kim Ng did not prepare or present the case; many teams outsource the task to specialists for the very reason of avoiding personal ill feelings. My guy handles arbitrations for several MLB teams including the Angels, Braves, and others.

    This lawyer handled one of John Rocker's arbitrations as well. He said that after the hearing, Rocker screamed at him in an evelator in what must have been a terrifying moment.

    I also had a chance to flip through a binder containing the Dodgers' case for Gagne. It was predicated on "Gagne is great, but he's asking for too much too soon." The biggest comparable was Mariano Rivera, who had won World Series and had great playoff success among other things. The lawyer had done such a good job preparing and delivering the case that the arbitrator pretty much quoted him verbatim when delivering the decision in favor of the Dodgers.

    If Gagne's side had asked for less (say, $7M) he might have stood a great chance of winning the case.

    2006-08-23 09:37:06
    27.   Bob Timmermann
    I saw the same case and exhibits. You are exactly right.
    2006-08-23 09:40:22
    28.   Jon Weisman
    Arbitration Rules Discourage Loyalty

    December 27, 2004

    "It is a peculiarity of the current system that arbitration-eligible players are encouraged to leave their most recent teams. Last week, 29 teams could have offered Lima a one-year, $2.5-million contract. The only team that couldn't was the team with which his rebirth continued - the Dodgers."

    2006-08-23 09:41:23
    29.   Jon Weisman
    Bob, I can't comment at the Griddle at work, but I really liked your accordion line.
    2006-08-23 09:41:57
    30.   Eric Enders
    Of course, guys who aren't offered arb can still sign with their old team, just not until May 1. This has happened at least twice with superstar free agents: Tim Raines in 1987 and Clemens this year.
    2006-08-23 09:43:07
    31.   Eric Enders
    29 If you don't mind me asking, how are you able to comment here but not the Griddle?

    Or is this a personal decision and not a computer issue.

    2006-08-23 09:44:01
    32.   Eric Stephen
    26 Thanks for the inside info. Great stuff.

    Point of reference: Mariano Rivera, in his first year of arbitration eligibility (1999) was awarded $4.25m.

    In Rivera's second year of eligibility (2000), he lost and was awarded $7.25m (he asked for $9.25m).

    2006-08-23 09:48:36
    33.   Eric Stephen
    Here's an article on the Gagne 2004 arbitration case:

    2006-08-23 09:48:53
    34.   Jon Weisman
    31 - For some reason, the firewall at work only allows me to comment on two Toaster sites: DT and BB.
    2006-08-23 09:49:04
    35.   bluetahoe
    It's not the Padres have been beating us up that bad in the games in the 2nd half. If you exclude Penny's choke job at Dodger Stadium the Dodgers have only lost by 1,4,2,1.
    2006-08-23 09:55:58
    36.   Bob Timmermann
    Thanks, I was debating whether or not to make a reference to Judy Tenuta or Weird Al Yankovic instead.
    2006-08-23 09:56:39
    37.   Bob Timmermann
    The Reds are up 2-0 after just three batters in the 1st inning.
    2006-08-23 09:59:11
    38.   popup
    23 I remember reading about the Burdette incident at the time it happened. I was living on the East coast at the time and all year long I was able to listen to Cardinal games at night over KMOX. For some reason though (must have been atmospheric conditions) I was not able to pick up KMOX for any of those three games. I remember vividly trying to tune in the game on my radio for hours all three nights with no luck.

    The Cardinals entered that series red hot. They were on a stretch just like the Dodgers just were on this year. I think the Cards had won something like 19 out of 20 going into the series with the Dodgers. Unlike 1962 though Sandy was healthy and that made the difference. Those are good times to remember even if I couldn't listen at the time. How I wish that XM radio was around back then; I could have listened to Vin in his prime and not be knocked out by atmospheric conditions.

    Stan from Tacoma

    2006-08-23 09:59:55
    39.   D4P
    Judy from Revenge of the Nerds would have been appropriate as well.

    "So I say I want to be free,
    So I say I want to be me"

    2006-08-23 10:02:02
    40.   Jon Weisman
    Lugo: Steve :: Penny: Bluetahoe

    It's like you guys have something in common.

    Anyway, Penny's total starts/quality starts are as follows:

    August ... 4/3
    July ... 4/2
    June ... 6/4
    May ... 6/2 (he had two starts in which he allowed no runs in five innings)
    April ... 5/4
    Total ... 25/15

    Penny, who is 12th in the NL in ERA, is tied for 13th in the NL in quality starts. It's not my favorite stat, but that pretty much defines him as a lower-level No. 1 starter or top No. 2.

    2006-08-23 10:03:35
    41.   Bob Timmermann

    Didn't KMOX have an effective range that allowed it cove about 1/3 of the United States. It was one of the big reasons for the Cardinals becoming so popular throughout the Midwest and South.

    The Cardinals switched to a different station this year (one that they own) and the people of the St. Louis area are none too happy about it. You can't hear it in a lot of places.

    Picture whole states full of people like Steve trying to listen to the Dodger game in Ontario.

    2006-08-23 10:05:20
    42.   Bob Timmermann
    Gregg Easterbrook attempts to write about basketball today in his TMQ column on, with disastrous consequences.
    2006-08-23 10:08:56
    43.   bhsportsguy
    Bob - my recollection (yes, I am not researching this before responding) is that it is Lew Burdetter not Lou Burdette.
    2006-08-23 10:09:15
    44.   D4P
    I'm not a big fan of the "quality start" stat either, but if it's gonna stick around, I'd like to see it changed to include all starts where a pitcher gave up 3 or fewer earned runs through 6 innings, regardless of what happens after the 6th inning. In other words, for example, if a pitcher gives up zero runs through 6, then gives up a total of 4 runs in the 7th, 8th, and 9th, he is at least as deserving of a QS as a pitcher who gives up 3 runs and leaves the game after the 6th inning.
    2006-08-23 10:10:38
    45.   Eric Enders
    43 Yes it is Lew.

    Although that is one of the more frequently misspelled baseball names, along with Elden Auker and Willy Miranda.

    Not that people have occasion to write "Willy Miranda" very often.

    2006-08-23 10:12:57
    46.   Bob Timmermann
    Mr. Burdette never could make up his mind how to spell his first name:
    (note the autographs)

    2006-08-23 10:14:57
    47.   bluetahoe
    Penny is going to have to pitch like he did in the postseason of 2003 to earn my respect. It could begin tonite for him, but I'm not holding my breath, nor am I setting myself up for diappointment anymore. I'd much rather him dominate the Padres than the Rockies.

    I think when a pitcher pitches against his former team, there's a little more pressure on him than normal. You really want to to stick it to your former team. The fish made Penny look foolish 2 times last season. I thought it was an embarrassment. For crying out loud, a guy he was traded for, Juan Enncarnacion smacked him around.

    I was giving the Dodgers one final hurrah last season when I went to Chicago. Go on a tear and we could win this thing. Sure enough in game one we went on an offensive explosion and DJ Houlton pitched well enough for the win. Next night's it's Penny's turn. There I am in the stands watching Henry Blanco of all people knock him out of the game in the 5th. Phooey. I packed it in.

    There's certain players you hold to higher standards. Bradley Penny is one of them.

    2006-08-23 10:15:18
    48.   JeffinTokyo
    I was excited to read that Gagne wants to stay in LA. His comment putting Boras in his proper place were nice to see. Hopefully, after Ned reads the paper he will be more enthusiastic about finding a way to resign him.

    The Nomar signing seems like a good model: a respectable base salary with easily attainable bonuses for a healthy, productive player.

    I for one think Gagne is loyal to the Dodgers. His comments yesterday only reinforce that belief. Even his negative comments in the past seemed more out of frustration than anything else. Plis, I get the feeling he really wants to pitch to his Canadian compatriot on a regular basis.

    2006-08-23 10:16:10
    49.   Blu2
    [22,24] Wouldn't the 20% maximum pay cut rule come into play against the Dodgers? And am I to understand that if the Dodgers don't offer a player arbitration, they can't negotiate with him at all? I thought they could negotiate up until a certain date (Jan 9th comes to mind??) but then they could not negotiate between that date and a date later in the year (Mat 25th comes to mind).
    2006-08-23 10:17:54
    50.   Bob Timmermann
    The only member of the 2006 Marlins whom Brad Penny played with in Florida was Miguel Cabrera.
    Show/Hide Comments 51-100
    2006-08-23 10:18:43
    51.   King of the Hobos
    49 That pay cut is only in effect for arbitration hearings. You can sign the player for any amount above the minimum, but they can't lose more than 20% in arbitration.
    2006-08-23 10:19:18
    52.   Bob Timmermann
    The 20% maximum pay cut rule only applies to contracts that can be automatically renewed. I.e., new guys. So the Dodgers could, if they wanted to be mean, cut Andre Ethier's salary by 20%.

    Teams don't do this very often at all now. Players tend to dislike it.

    A lot.

    2006-08-23 10:19:42
    53.   Bob Timmermann
    Yeah, that too!
    2006-08-23 10:20:36
    54.   Eric Enders
    47 Please don't call him Bradley Penny. He's got enough of a temper as it is. We don't need him to start ripping his jersey off or throwing bottles into the stands.
    2006-08-23 10:20:52
    55.   Bob Timmermann
    I'll stick to consanguinity:

    2006-08-23 10:21:55
    56.   dzzrtRatt
    43 If I had to choose between Lew Burdetter and Lou Burdette, I'd pick Bob Gibson.
    2006-08-23 10:22:01
    57.   King of the Hobos
    50 Willis?
    2006-08-23 10:22:39
    58.   bluetahoe
    In 2005 the Fish had Encarnacion, Castillo, Pierre, Gonzalez, Lowell, etc.... All former teammates of Bradley's.
    2006-08-23 10:22:59
    59.   Blu2
    [51,52,53] I think Ethier is making minimum; don't think they can cut that. But I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a big raise if I was him....
    2006-08-23 10:23:48
    60.   JeffinTokyo
    So, the Dodgers need to pay Gagne the $1 million buyout and then sign him before the arbitration deadline. Is that about right?

    If so, that will take some unprecedented cooperation between a team and Boras.

    I would hope they would count the $1 mil towards next year's salary at least.

    2006-08-23 10:23:58
    61.   still bevens
    If the Dodgers decide not to sign Gagne, I hope they at least slip him a couple g's to not sign with the Giants.
    2006-08-23 10:25:56
    62.   OaklandAs
    44 The beauty and value of the Quality Start is its simplicity - 6 or more IP, 3 or fewer ER. You can calculate it easily from a glance at the box score, without having to examine the inning-by-inning data. Once you start adding exceptions, like not counting runs after the 6th, you lose the simplicity. Then you may as well be using the more advanced metrics, like SNWL or something.
    2006-08-23 10:27:19
    63.   dzzrtRatt
    Not to sound cynical, but if I were Eric Gagne, I'd much rather take the "hometown discount" from the Dodgers, instead of the "hasn't-really-pitched-in-two-years" discount the rest of the league will demand. He's hoping the T-Shirts and the Game Over schtick will increase his true market value to LA. It's really a "hometown premium" given his circumstance.

    Boras probably scripted the "Boras is my agent..." line.

    Of course I'd love to have Gagne back on the team. But his situation is comparable to Garciaparra's last winter. The market for him is one year, incentive-laden, and significantly discounted because of the high likelihood he won't be able to play, period.

    2006-08-23 10:27:27
    64.   Jon Weisman
    52 - "So the Dodgers could, if they wanted to be mean, cut Andre Ethier's salary by 20%."

    Except for the major league minimum getting in the way.

    2006-08-23 10:28:10
    65.   Eric Enders
    My version of the quality start would be:

    2 ER or better in 6 innings, OR
    3 ER or better in 7-9 innings, OR
    4 ER in more than nine innings

    2006-08-23 10:31:20
    66.   JeffinTokyo
    62. The problem with QS, is that it penalizes pitchers that pitch deep into games. I agree with DP4. Also, it strikes me as unfair that a pitcher who goes 8 or 9 innings and gives up 4 runs does not get a quality start even if his game ERA is =< than a pitcher who goes 6 and gives up 3.

    It also makes you wonder if pitchers beg out of games early to preserve quality starts.

    2006-08-23 10:33:06
    67.   DXMachina
    40 Lowe actually leads the team in quality starts, 17/27. Of course, Sele is third on the team with 9/14 so far.
    2006-08-23 10:33:29
    68.   Bob Timmermann

    Don't make me post more consanguinity charts!

    2006-08-23 10:35:23
    69.   Bob Timmermann
    Cousin calculator!

    It's a link in the above website.

    2006-08-23 10:38:42
    70.   Marty
    Shouldn't Gagne demonstrate that he can pick up a ball and throw it and not have something fall off before the Dodgers worry about signing him?
    2006-08-23 10:39:31
    71.   Marty
    69 I think I read where that was banned in Tennessee.
    2006-08-23 10:41:29
    72.   Jon Weisman
    69 - More direct link ...

    2006-08-23 10:41:31
    73.   OaklandAs
    65 66 Sure, but that's making it more complicated. Just like OPS might be better if you multiply OBP by 1.2, but that detracts from its simplicity. The way it is now, it's quite useful, and very simple.

    The way it is presently constructed,
    1) Teams get a QS about 50% of the time
    2) Teams with a QS win more than 2/3 of the time
    3) The average ERA in a QS is about 4 to 5 runs lower than in non-QS starts
    4) The average IP in a QS is much higher; 7.5 compared to 4.5 in a non-QS
    5) The hated example, the 6 IP, 3 ER QS, occurs in only about 6% of all QS.

    It clearly has some value, and it's very simple.

    2006-08-23 10:41:32
    74.   Bob Timmermann
    There is indeed a website for everything:
    2006-08-23 10:43:35
    75.   Eric Enders
    73 While I appreciate the need for simplicity, I think most people would find 65 very simple and easy to follow. Not to mention more accurate.
    2006-08-23 10:46:38
    76.   Bob Timmermann
    How many pitchers throw OVER nine innings in a game now? Halladay did it recently, but you're probably as likely to get hit by a passing chunk of ice coming out of the Oort Cloud as see a pitcher go 10 innings now.
    2006-08-23 10:50:11
    77.   JeffinTokyo
    70. That would be one one of dealing with Gagne. The other way would be to say, "You have been great off the field and on (before you got hurt) and the fans love you. We hope and pray that you will be great on the field again. Based on past performance and future potential (not to mention marketing value) we will give you a fair contract. If you do well as well hope, we will add to the total."

    In my opinion, his past pitching supremacy combined with his incredible fan favorite-ness make him worth the risk.

    2006-08-23 10:51:41
    78.   D4P
    The problem with QS, is that it penalizes pitchers that pitch deep into games

    On a related note, QS probably rewards pitchers who take a lot of pitches to complete 6 innings and penalizes pitchers who take fewer pitches. If your pitch count is high through 6 innings, you're more likely to be taken out, thus preserving your QS. If your pitch count is low, you're more likely to be left in, thus jeopardizing your QS.

    2006-08-23 10:54:10
    79.   GoBears
    75. I agree. The QS is a nice idea - looking for low variance to go along (hopefully) with a low (ER)average.

    But it's a poor execution of that idea. 3 ER in 6IP is an ERA of 4.5. A pitcher who gets a quality start every time out with a 4.50 ERA overall is not of high quality. He's a highly consistent mediocrity.

    The best measure would be simply the standard deviation in the ER distribution. But that's not user-friendly, especially for sportswriters who fear laptops (or calculators).

    2006-08-23 10:56:30
    80.   Jon Weisman
    79 - I used to make that argument myself, but it was pointed out to me that the 3ER-6IP quality start is 1) the worst kind and not the most frequent and 2) is frankly not all that bad in this day and age.

    In other words, the quality start leaders almost never have a collective ERA of 4.50 in their quality starts.

    2006-08-23 10:57:51
    81.   Eric Enders
    80 You can remove the word "almost."
    2006-08-23 11:00:36
    82.   JeffinTokyo
    What about d4P's point about pitchers who had a Q start after six, but lost it based on runs given up in the 7th and beyond? Shouldn't they also get credit for a quality start. Or should they be penalized for trying to stretch it out? I think not.
    2006-08-23 11:05:36
    83.   popup
    41 Bob, I was able to listen to KMOX most nights as clear as if it was a local station in my home in Wilmington Delaware. Back in 1963 I was able to listen to the Dodgers at night from all the National League cities except for Los Angeles, San Francisco and Milwaukee. The signal from KDKA in Pittsburgh was pretty weak, but the others were usually ok. KMOX and the Mets station, WABC, were the best. I was able to listen to WABC during the day in fact. Howard Cossell and Ralph Branca had a great pre and post-game radio show on the Met games at that time.

    I still prefer baseball on the radio over tv. I like tv to see a player I have not seen before, but otherwise, I would rather listen. The big caveat in that is that the radio broadcaster has to be good or at least tolerable. I listened to Dan Shulman broadcast the Maddux masterpiece on ESPN radio and really enjoyed what I heard. I am sure I would not have enjoyed watching and listening to Joe Morgan nearly as much.

    Vin in his prime on the radio was a joy to hear. In his prime on tv he was awfully good, but I think the tv picture overpowered Vinny's words. His tv description of Gibson's homerun was great, but I think he would have been even better had he been on radio at the time.

    Stan from Tacoma

    2006-08-23 11:08:07
    84.   Jon Weisman
    82 - I agree with the principle, but again, once you start making the stat hard to figure out without looking at a play-by-play, it loses its utility.

    Although if ESPN or some site could track quality starts using the new rule, maybe that would make it okay.

    2006-08-23 11:14:58
    85.   Eric Enders
    83 "Vin in his prime on the radio was a joy to hear."

    It's been a while since somebody posted this link, so...

    Go. Listen. Exult.

    2006-08-23 11:18:12
    86.   dkminnick
    83 - I agree, Stan, especially when it comes to Vinny on the radio. One misses nothing by not having a picture when Vin does radio.

    Unfortunately, radio play-by-play is underrated nowadays. It seems that there is less difference between radio and TV PBP styles than there used to be. There is so much commentary, so few images.

    Being able to paint a picture for the radio listener is an art. And Vinny is it's Michaelangelo. No one else is even close.

    2006-08-23 11:18:19
    87.   JeffinTokyo
    82. Thanks for the open mind Jon. I'm thinking it wouldn't be too hard to isolate earned runs over the first six innings.

    By the way, as a way to combine the two threads, quality starts and Gagne, I would really like to see Gagne return to starting pitching. I think he could be more effective pitching 6 or 7 innings every fifth day. He has the repetoire of a starter now. It would probably be easier for him physically too.

    2006-08-23 11:20:10
    88.   popup
    85 Thanks Eric. And by the way, that was my definition of a quality start (and a quality broadcast as well).

    Stan from Tacoma

    2006-08-23 11:20:31
    89.   Terry A
    Old Friend Jose Vizcaino has apparently caught on with the Cardinals, who lost Eckstein to the DL.
    2006-08-23 11:21:02
    90.   jasonungar05
    Well I made my first visit to the new yard in SD last night and I wasn't all that impressed. It was nice but I still prefer Blue Heaven.
    2006-08-23 11:24:11
    91.   Bob Timmermann
    The Cardinals now have BOTH Jose Vizcaino AND Timo Perez!
    2006-08-23 11:25:23
    92.   GoBears
    80. That's correct. A guy who gets a QS every time out is likely to have a much better ERA than 4.50. But that the stat would allow the extreme example of 100% QS along with 4.50 ERA shows its pointlessness. ERA alone is a much more valuable measure of quality.

    QS% is sorta like save percentage. A nice idea, but can be very misleading if it's used as a measure of quality, as opposed to simple accounting.

    "So and so has converted 24 of 26 Save Opportunities." That does tell us something in a purely descriptive sense, since we know what "save" means. But it's a lousy measure of pitcher quality.

    2006-08-23 11:25:43
    93.   Jon Weisman
    87 - I just don't see that happening.
    2006-08-23 11:29:19
    94.   JeffinTokyo
    90. I am the biggest Dodger fan there is, but I loved Petco. I've been there twice. (The first time was hours after the Dodgers' heart and soul was traded away. The second was the WBC final.)

    The seats were comfortable, the food was good, and the service was friendly And both times, the team I was rooting for (Dodgers, Japan) won. What could be better?

    2006-08-23 11:30:23
    95.   Eric Enders
    ""So and so has converted 24 of 26 Save Opportunities." That does tell us something in a purely descriptive sense"

    Only for guys who are closers and closers only.

    For example, last night when Broxton came in they said he was 2-for-4 in save opportunities. Of course, the two "blown saves" he had were not save opportunities in any meaningful sense of the term.

    2006-08-23 11:36:17
    96.   Bob Timmermann
    To me, PETCO's inherent problem is the fact that it's in San Diego.
    2006-08-23 11:38:06
    97.   Bob Timmermann
    After intentionally walking Lance Berkman to load the bases in a 2-2 tie, Todd Coffey got kicked out after going to a 3-1 count on Chris Burke.

    Ryan Franklin came in and got one strike, but walked Burke to force in a run and the Astros lead 3-2 in the 8th.

    2006-08-23 11:38:27
    98.   Bob Timmermann
    Oops, 7th inning in Cincinnati.
    2006-08-23 11:38:34
    99.   GoBears
    95. You're right - it's even worse than I indicated. My point was that just because a "stat" can communicate something, giving us a short-cut in describing someone's performance, that doesn't mean it is at all helpful in evaluating that performance.

    The QS start is pretty unambiguous. But its analytical value is only as good as the definition of "Quality." And if that is problematic (or less than optimally useful), just like "save" or "fielding chance" or "w-l record," then what's the point?

    2006-08-23 11:40:36
    100.   Bob Timmermann
    Franklin was taken out after the walk to Burke. Since Coffey had thrown three balls and Franklin just threw ball four, Coffey is charged with the walk.

    Franklin has a line of all zeroes with a "Franklin faced batter one batter in 7th note".

    It's like Franklin was never in the game...

    Show/Hide Comments 101-150
    2006-08-23 11:41:08
    101.   OaklandAs
    92 Why throw out a stat because 5% of the cases do not reflect "quality"? Every stat has situations in which it can be misleading, but it doesn't make sense to throw out every stat because it can be misleading once in a while. For example, The percentage of Wins and Saves in which the pitcher has an ERA over 4.50 is much higher. You might say those are bad stats too, but QS correlates with good pitching better than those, or any other quick stat out there, so why not use it?
    2006-08-23 11:44:28
    102.   Bob Timmermann
    The Reds bullpen has been a little snakebit in the seventh inning.

    Houston leads 6-2 now.

    Coffey, Franklin, and now Cormier haven't retired anyone.

    Franklin is credited with pitching to one batter, but facing no batters.

    2006-08-23 11:45:36
    103.   Daniel Zappala
    Bob, what do you have against the city of San Diego?
    2006-08-23 11:47:09
    104.   Bob Timmermann

    The city of San Diego rejected my slogan for them:

    San Diego, the City That Only Appears to be Interesting to Visit.

    2006-08-23 11:53:53
    105.   JeffinTokyo
    104. Bob, mine was rejected too:
    Nice Place to Fill Gas on the Way to Tijuana.
    2006-08-23 11:54:41
    106.   gibsonhobbs88
    87 - You are kidding, right? Gagne started his career as a starter and was mediocre at best as a starter. He was pretty much toast by the 5th inning. The closer role fit his demeanor and personality better because he could go "all out" for 1 inning maybe 2 and that's it. He would not be a good candidate to do a "Smoltz". We should hope his career can be resurrected to be about 80% of what he was in 2002-2004.
    2006-08-23 11:55:58
    107.   regfairfield
    2006-08-23 11:56:08
    108.   Greg S
    I love the city of San Diego. But I have to believe that anybody who thinks PETCO is a great stadium has likely visited very few ballparks around the league. It is an also-ran.
    2006-08-23 11:58:51
    109.   Bob Timmermann
    San Diego: We Have Rules Governing Elections, But We're Not Sure Where They Are.
    2006-08-23 11:59:41
    110.   gibsonhobbs88
    96 - I have visited Petco and one thing I liked about it is that the ushers held people from going back into the stands until there was a break in the action, (end of half inning, pitching change) so your view would not be disturbed by people constantly getting back to their seat.
    I have a problem with Petco only because the Dodgers can't seem to beat the Padres this year, much less score a run. You think they would prosper here since teams that hit singles and doubles like the Dodgers are supposed to do better than teams trying to hit dingers.
    2006-08-23 12:00:43
    111.   Eric Enders
    108 On TV Petco looks really spectacular. Is there something about the in-person experience that makes it less so?
    2006-08-23 12:02:02
    112.   Bob Timmermann
    The Dodgers are 12-14 alltime at PETCO.
    2006-08-23 12:05:55
    113.   Eric Enders
    112 Well, besides that, obviously.
    2006-08-23 12:06:17
    114.   Bob Timmermann
    When I went to PETCO in 2004, I thought my seat was very roomy, but it turned out that I was in a row set aside for wheelchair seating. It was sort of like lucking out and getting the exit row on an airplane.

    The RF angle makes it hard to see plays in the corner.

    I think the ushers there are able to keep fans from walking during the course of play because the aisles are narrower and there aren't as many people to stop. Dodger Stadium has a "cordon sanitaire" where people can't stand, which I assume is a fire safety rule. So if you are standing outside the seats, you can barely see the field at Dodger Stadium.

    2006-08-23 12:07:15
    115.   Greg S
    Not really. It's just that it is a copy of Camden, Jacobs, Arlington, PNC, Coors, Great American.. etc, etc. Those ballparks all seem to have more soul. PETCO just strikes me as a nice imitation with nothing that it can particularly call it's own. It also looks like a library from the front and just white steel beams from the back. Maybe when all the high rise condos going up behind the outfield walls are done, it will be more unique.
    2006-08-23 12:07:24
    116.   JeffinTokyo
    106. No, I am not kidding Gib. Gagne will not likely throw 97 again. What's more, he is no longer a thrower. He can get several ptiches over for strikes. And the way he threw while injured, lower speed, more deception, is exactly the style of a great starter. He does not have to throw 100%. He can pace himself, and thus go easier on his arm. And, besides, if you look carefully at his starts, quite a few of them where of the quality variety.

    In 1999, he had 5 starts. He pitched 30 innings, Gave up 18 hits, had 30 strikeouts, 15 walks, 2.10 era, and 1.1 WHIP. Are you calling that mediocre?

    2006-08-23 12:08:26
    117.   Bob Timmermann

    I get people walking into my workplace all the time thinking that they are going to a Padres game.

    2006-08-23 12:08:34
    118.   Greg S
    By the way, the usher thing is true in many stadiums including Arizona where I'll be this weekend!
    2006-08-23 12:17:27
    119.   Eric Enders
    "PETCO just strikes me as a nice imitation with nothing that it can particularly call it's own."

    I sympathize. That's the way I felt visiting Coors, the BOB, Atlanta, and Milwaukee. None of those have a single thing to recommend them, but Petco at least has the skyline in the back and the cool incorporation of the building (a ripoff of Camden Yards, yes, but executed much better than Camden Yards IMO).

    2006-08-23 12:21:30
    120.   Eric Stephen
    I like Petco Park personally. It's clean, has wide concourses and it's generally easy to get around.

    It has a few nice quirks that make it stand out:

    1) The Western Metal Supply Building in left field, kind of gives the stadium an old-timey feel (although I can see that it might seem forced)
    2) The "Park in the Park" beyond CF, where fans can sit on grass or kids can play ball on a small field, just beyond CF, for $5

    The major drawback is that a large number of seats have views that do not cover 100% of the field. The Padres claim this is the cost of having seats so close to the field (I like the views from even the top deck, so maybe they are right).

    The food is so-so (the hot dogs are good only 50% of the time or worse, which leads me to wonder why I still occasionally order them), although there seems to be a large enough selection to satisfy most.

    Also, depsite being downtown, getting in and out of the stadium is generally easy and efficient, whether by car or on foot.

    This has nothing to do with the park, but I wonder if the Padres have the worst set of retired numbers around:

    6 - Steve Garvey (only 4.5 mediocre seasons with SD, but one memorable HR)
    19 - Tony Gwynn (no argument; obviously deserving)
    31 - Dave Winfield (no argument; obviously deserving)
    35 - Randy Jones (1976 Cy Young; 8 seasons with SD; career 101 ERA+; pretty good BBQ at Petco, but it's not better than Boog's BBQ in Baltimore)
    42 - Jackie Robinson (no argument)

    It is kind of satisfying that 40% of the Padres' retired numbers are Dodgers!

    2006-08-23 12:24:44
    121.   JeffinTokyo
    Another thing I liked about Petco was riding the rickshaw to the stadium from the distant yet cheap parking place. That was the first time.

    The second time, I was staying in a motel nearby. It was about a 10 minute walk. I passed dozens of bars and restaurants on my way to the stadium (stopping at one on the way in and 3 on the way out). That kind of city life accessibility is sadly something Dodger Stadium cannot match.

    2006-08-23 12:25:19
    122.   Eric Stephen
    I will say this about the seats...most are angled toward home plate, which sounds like a good idea. But, for those of us, umm, larger people, the angle of the seats makes them doubly uncomfortable.

    I could stick to the pricier Toyota Terrace (2nd) level, where the seats are wider, though.

    Or I could lose weight.

    2006-08-23 12:26:49
    123.   mankatododger
    The Metrodome ushers also don't allow people to go back to their seats during an at back. That doesn't help with the rest of the Dome's problems.

    My Mom has season tickets at PetCo and I have visited there a few times. They missed the chance to give the memorable ocean view by having the open area overlook a rundown (although changing part) of downtown. Parking is not a problem. But there is basically no room between aisles. It is like sitting in a coach airline seat for the entire game unless you are in a front row seat in one of the sections.

    2006-08-23 12:27:40
    124.   Eric Stephen
    Also, the stadium and area developments have revitalized San Diego's Gaslamp District. The increased number of restaurants and bars/clubs have become increasingly popular in the last few years, giving the ballpark area a much "cooler" feel.
    2006-08-23 12:28:22
    125.   Eric Enders
    "6 - Steve Garvey (only 4.5 mediocre seasons with SD, but one memorable HR)"

    What is the Padres stance this week on Steve Garvey's number? They've spent the past 19 years waffling back and forth on whether the number is actually retired or not.

    Garvey is actually one of two MLB players to ever have their number UNretired. Interestingly, both are Dodger greats. The other was Jackie Robinson, whose number 20 was retired by the Expos in 1996 but then unretired when they discovered that wasn't his correct number.

    2006-08-23 12:28:25
    126.   Bob Timmermann

    Was that a Kramer-Newman owned and operated rickshaw?

    2006-08-23 12:30:39
    127.   Bob Timmermann
    The Pirates retired the number of Billy Meyer, #1.

    Who is he?

    Most Pirate fans don't know how or why it happened.

    2006-08-23 12:30:49
    128.   GoBears
    101 Why throw out a stat because 5% of the cases do not reflect "quality"? Every stat has situations in which it can be misleading, but it doesn't make sense to throw out every stat because it can be misleading once in a while. For example, The percentage of Wins and Saves in which the pitcher has an ERA over 4.50 is much higher. You might say those are bad stats too, but QS correlates with good pitching better than those, or any other quick stat out there, so why not use it?

    Two reasons. First, because, fundamentally, it does not tell us anything we need to know and can't find find another way. How can you know QS correlates well with good pitching? Because we have better measures of "good pitching."

    Second, over and above the fact that QS is really just a search for low variance around a (hopefully) good ER average, there is the point about the too-generous measure of quality. I likened it to the save because of the generally accepted realization that there are too many cheap saves (1 IP without allowing 3 runs). Not all saves are cheap saves, to be sure, but what's the value of counting them if many are and we can't know how many for each pitcher without other stats as a guide? If QS were defined as 6IP with no more than 2 (not 3) ER allowed, I'd care less than I already do. If you wish, we could change the name to High-Quality Starts to reflect a 6 inning start with an ERA of 3.00 or below, which is actually very good.

    I'm not saying that QS is a horrible stat. Just that it's (1) mostly useless, and (2) too inefficient, like the save, as an evaluative measure of performance.

    Which isn't surprising, since the QS, like the "productive out" (and I think the GWRBI, but I might be wrong) was an off-the-cuff invention of a sportswriter with a kernel of a good idea, but without careful thought as to what it was trying to measure and how best to do it.

    But the simplest answer is that a bad (misleading) stat is worse than no stat at all.

    2006-08-23 12:32:55
    129.   Eric Stephen
    125 I'm not sure what the Padres' stance is on Garvey's retired number, other than it is still prominently displayed above the "batters' eye" wall in CF, along with the other 4 numbers mentioned above.
    2006-08-23 12:33:13
    130.   JeffinTokyo
    126. Bob, fortunately the road was flat, and I am not Newman (not that there's anything wrong with that).
    2006-08-23 12:35:16
    131.   Bob Timmermann
    In that particular episode of "Seinfeld" where the rickshaw rolls downhill, that sequence was filmed outside the LA Central Library on Grand Avenue below 5th Street.

    Grand is very steep in that section.

    "Seinfeld" had a big budget in its last season, because the crew spent 3-4 hours on location filming about 10 seconds of the show.

    2006-08-23 12:35:38
    132.   blue22
    123 - I had a bit of an incident last time at Dodger Stadium with an usher. Bonds was up, and I was at the top of my aisle. I was going to wait until the at bat was over (or the pitch at least) before walking down. The usher came over and told me I had to move. I tried to tell him that I was waiting for Bonds to hit so that I wouldn't block anyone's view. He insisted, so I walked down the aisle in the middle of a pitch. I'm sure the people I was walking in front of appreciated it.
    2006-08-23 12:36:04
    133.   Eric Stephen
    128 To follow your assertion further, if QS is mostly useless, what does that make Wins?

    Didn't someone here recently link to a study that showed the ERA in all QS was lower than the ERA in all Wins? (I believe the study was in 2004)

    2006-08-23 12:36:36
    134.   gibsonhobbs88
    116 - Oh sure, bring out his rookie season when hitters didn't know him yet. Look at his second and third seasons used primarily as a starter.
    2000 - 20G 19GS ERA 5.15, WHIP 1.64 101 IP, 106 Hits, 60BB 79K averaging a little over 5 innings a start.
    2001 - 33G 24GS ERA 4.75, WHIP 1.25(better than'00)151 IP 144 Hits, 46 BB 130K Also better than '00 but still overall mediocre stats as a starter.
    If you are going to refer to stats, give all stats and paint the whole picture!!

    I still say he stays a closer!!

    2006-08-23 12:37:05
    135.   blue22
    131 - Were all of Seinfeld's outdoor scenes filmed in LA?
    2006-08-23 12:37:43
    136.   Bob Timmermann

    I would say that nearly all of them were.

    2006-08-23 12:37:44
    137.   Eric Enders
    127 Other bizarre/stupid retired numbers:

    Jim Umbricht (Astros #32)
    Carl Barger (Marlins #5)
    Gene Autry (Angels #26)
    Cleveland's Fans (Indians #455)

    The lowest standards clearly belong to the Astros and Angels. The highest standards are the Dodgers, Giants, Cubs, Phillies, and arguably Red Sox.

    2006-08-23 12:39:06
    138.   blue22
    136 - Interesting. I guess I never gave it much thought that it wasn't New York. Makes sense, obviously.
    2006-08-23 12:39:57
    139.   GoBears
    128.To follow your assertion further, if QS is mostly useless, what does that make Wins?

    Mostly useless.

    2006-08-23 12:40:44
    140.   Bob Timmermann
    Reds lose to Houston 7-3.
    2006-08-23 12:42:54
    141.   Eric Enders
    139 So if we give Wins five minutes with Billy Crystal and Carol Kane, they'll be useful again?
    2006-08-23 12:44:27
    142.   JeffinTokyo
    131. I was working downtown during that period. Bummer I missed it. That must be near Angels Flight. I used to take that to my office every morning (this was before the cable snapped).

    The only other time I took a rickshaw was in Asakusa here in Tokyo.

    I thought both experiences were fun until recently, when I read the memoires of Donald Keene, the famous Japanologist. He talked about how gulity it made him feel to be transported around by human power when he rode a rickshaw in Kyoto.

    2006-08-23 12:45:17
    143.   the OZ
    I couldn't wait for PETCO to open. I wanted to love PETCO. Because of construction delays caused by all manner of idiocy (never trust San Diegans to properly handle anything important), I moved back to LA before its opening but have been there 4 times since 2004.

    It felt steep to me in the upper levels. The skyline is unremarkable. The fence in center field is ugly chain-link. The concrete bleachers in left-center look awful. I don't think it's a good value. Getting out of the Gaslamp is a pain. If you take the trolley, waiting in line to leave is sort of a pain. Other than that, it's nice, I guess.

    It's alright. Definitely an improvement over Qualcomm, but fell far short of my expectations. It's best feature is the context of its location within Gaslamp. If it were located where Qualcomm is, I doubt anyone would be fired up about it at all.

    2006-08-23 12:47:57
    144.   GoBears
    141. It would take a miracle.
    2006-08-23 12:48:15
    145.   Travis
    137 More stupid retired numbers:

    August Busch, Jr. (Cardinals #85)
    Wade Boggs (Devil Rays #12)

    2006-08-23 12:51:23
    146.   Bob Timmermann
    The scene I was referrig to was not particularly close to Angels Flight, which went from Hill to Olive.

    The saddest part of the Angels Flight accident was that the man who died was a Holocaust survivor. He'd been through so much and survived so long and then he died because the contractor for a funicular in Los Angeles decided not to include an emergency brake.

    2006-08-23 12:53:35
    147.   BlueCrew Bruin
    And if you needed further proof:

    2006-08-23 12:53:46
    148.   popup
    137 Eric, the Umbricht number was retired for who he was as a man rather than who he was as a pitcher. When I was a teenager I went to a sports banquet in Philadelphia where he was honored as the most courageous athlete of the year. By the way, Sandy was at that same banquet and I was able to get his autograph. Sad to say I was speechless in his presence. I was fairly shy as a kid, but not that shy. I remember talking with John Roseboro and Lou Johnson and some of the other Dodgers as a kid, but around Sandy I was unable to talk.

    Stan from Tacoma

    2006-08-23 12:54:20
    149.   JeffinTokyo
    134. Gibs, based on what I've read tonight, Gag's 2001 stats are right on the edge of quality. Seriously, he is much wiser as a pitcher (and person) now than he was then. As I said before, he knows how to finesse.

    Sure, he could be a closer in the mold of Trevor Hoffman. And sure, it is not likely that the Dodgers will move him into the rotation next year. But, I still think he could be a top shelf starting pitcher.

    2006-08-23 12:54:46
    150.   Eric Enders
    I think those cats all look like Charlie Chaplin.
    Show/Hide Comments 151-200
    2006-08-23 12:55:11
    151.   BlueCrew Bruin
    ...further proof that there is indeed a website for everything, I mean.
    2006-08-23 12:57:05
    152.   Eric Enders
    148 I am aware of the Umbricht backstory. Which makes it no less bizarre that his number is retired.

    Did you ever get to meet Sandy again?

    2006-08-23 13:01:25
    153.   Blu2
    [75 et al] How about Quality Start Average? Any start that is six or more innings with the Game ERA of less than 4.5 is a quality start. Or add a qualifier to the present definition: Anything that happens after 6 innings does not nullify the quality start. What I don't like about the whole concept of Quality starts is that it passively encourages pitchers to think of games in terms of only 6 innings. In the good old days (tongue in cheek) pitchers pitched 9 innings or sure tried harder than they do now. I remember there was at least one pitcher who pitch 2 complete games in one day. Just looked it up on Google: There were a ton of pitchers who accomplished that feat. Last time in 1926.
    2006-08-23 13:01:45
    154.   OaklandAs
    132 I guess we will have to disagree on the usefulness of the QS then. I think knowing that a pitcher has 31 QS in 35 GS is a better evaluation of quality than just knowing a pitcher has 14 Wins or a 3.50 ERA.

    By the way, here is an old Diamond-Mind Baseball article on the QS, discussing Bill James' and Moss Klein's early debates on it.

    2006-08-23 13:03:21
    155.   JeffinTokyo
    146. Adding to the irony, the cars names were Sinai and Olivet.
    2006-08-23 13:03:44
    156.   Daniel Zappala
    122 I've appreciated your comments today. As an aside, you might try Weight Watchers. They teach you how to really eat properly and how to control your portion size. They won't push a pill or their own food on you. They will encourage you to exercise and adopt a healthy lifestyle. Many complications in your health can come when you are overweight. Life can be a lot better when you are physically fit.
    2006-08-23 13:04:39
    157.   popup
    152 Eric, I haven't seen Sandy in person since he retired. I did see the last game he ever pitched in the National League, and that is a memory I hope I can keep with me forever.

    Stan from Tacoma

    2006-08-23 13:07:23
    158.   Midwest Blue
    From the world of minor league baseball (courtesy of Deadspin):

    Steve Sax Night (Saturday, Orem Owlz, Pioneer League). Sax, who played in the Pioneer League, will delight fans by not throwing a baseball in their direction (except for the ceremonial first pitch ... look out, Grandma!)

    2006-08-23 13:07:41
    159.   gibsonhobbs88
    149 - I grant you some valid points but I still don't see it from a medical standpoint that pitching 80-100 pitches every 5th day will have less stress on the arm than pitching 15-20 pitches 2 or 3 straight days. Of course, SP always throw between starts but RP are always up and down in the bullpen but Gagne knowing his role doesn't start loosening up till the 8th inning starts. Plus, I would be wary of anything until he does prove his medical problems are behind him. Right now, that is still very much in doubt!!
    2006-08-23 13:08:23
    160.   Steve
    So if we give Wins five minutes with Billy Crystal and Carol Kane, they'll be useful again?

    Anything would be.

    2006-08-23 13:08:54
    161.   Daniel Zappala
    137 You can't know anything about the Angels and their history and belittle their retiring of Autry's number. He means a lot to their franchise.
    2006-08-23 13:11:21
    162.   GoBears
    I think knowing that a pitcher has 31 QS in 35 GS is a better evaluation of quality than just knowing a pitcher has 14 Wins or a 3.50 ERA.

    I'll grant you that the 14 wins is even less informative. But 3.50 ERA is really all I need to know for a starter (well, and how that compares to the league - 3.50 in 1968 was quite as special as in 1998). ERA is of course less helpful in evaluating relievers, because of the messiness of inherited runners.

    2006-08-23 13:12:54
    163.   Linkmeister
    I Googled Umbricht, since I'd never heard of him. That's a sad story.
    2006-08-23 13:13:16
    164.   Jon Weisman
    134/159 - Did you read the link provided in 107?
    2006-08-23 13:14:44
    165.   Jon Weisman
    In 1995-96, I worked at the CBS Radford lot in Studio City where most Seinfeld interiors and exteriors were filmed - including the main street block that they would walk on. They would redress the same exteriors any number of times to suit their needs.
    2006-08-23 13:15:18
    166.   JeffinTokyo
    159. Thanks KirkRoy. I am not sure what is best for his arm. I only go by the fact that there are a lot more 40+ year old starters than relievers. Orosco is the only exception that comes to mind. And I think of Tom John starting rather effectively until he was too old to be called Tommy.

    But the truth is, I will be more than happy to see him in the bullpen next year. it beats the current situation.

    2006-08-23 13:15:55
    167.   Eric Enders
    161 I know quite a bit about the Angels and their history, and I do very much belittle them for retiring Autry's number. Or rather, his non-number, since he never wore it.

    There's nothing dumber than retiring a number that somebody never wore. If you wanted to honor Autry, there are plenty of other appropriate ways to do it. It's not Autry himself that I'm opposed to.

    My philosophy on number retirement is that it should be done for great players or managers, period. Not because you're all sentimental about somebody (Autry, J. Reese), not because you feel sorry for them for getting cancer (Umbricht, Hutchinson), and not because they simply had a lot of money (Barger).

    You should have to have been a great player or manager for the team. Period.

    2006-08-23 13:16:54
    168.   popup
    I don't think Eric was belittling retiring Autry's number. Actually, Autry did not have a number, so the whole discussion is a bit surreal. Autry could certainly be honored without taking a number out of circulation. Quite frankly, I am not that big on retired numbers. I think it is better for say Mo Vaughn to honor Jackie by wearing #42 than taking #42 of circulation.

    Stan from Tacoma

    2006-08-23 13:17:12
    169.   Jon Weisman
    Oh, and by the way ... If I came back toward my aisle holding food for four just as the pitcher was starting an inning, and was told that I had to wait until the half-inning was over before I could sit down, I'd be very annoyed. That could be 20 minutes. I can't believe that's for real.

    No one likes having people walk in front of their view during a game, but it's an inconvenience that lasts for about three seconds usually. This isn't Broadway. It's a baseball game, with pauses after every pitch.

    2006-08-23 13:19:36
    170.   popup
    ooops..... number 167 was posted before I was done typing.

    Stan from Tacoma

    2006-08-23 13:20:34
    171.   Daniel Zappala
    167 If you wanted to honor Autry, there are plenty of other appropriate ways to do it. It's not Autry himself that I'm opposed to.

    That I can agree with. I thought you meant he wasn't worthy of being honored in the first place.

    2006-08-23 13:20:34
    172.   Jon Weisman
    I think there's room for sentiment in retiring numbers. I just think you run into the potential problem in 75 years or so of having too many numbers retired.

    Jim Gilliam's number is obviously the odd one in the list for the Dodgers, but I can't say it really bothers me. It is, however, just another reason for a Dodger Hall of Fame, or Hall of We Liked 'Em

    2006-08-23 13:21:32
    173.   popup
    Jon, if it was a Yankee/Red Sox game it could be over an hour.

    Stan from Tacoma

    2006-08-23 13:22:08
    174.   OaklandAs
    162 But ERA alone isn't enough. You would also want to know something about Innings Pitched and Games Started, and maybe IP/GS to get as much information. Otherwise you might conclude that Tim Stauffer or Kyle Lohse was the best starting pitcher in the NL this year.
    2006-08-23 13:22:53
    175.   Daniel Zappala
    So when do the Dodgers create a hall of fame outside the stadium? This has got to be the best suggestion I have ever heard.
    2006-08-23 13:23:37
    176.   Eric Enders
    169 "No one likes having people walk in front of their view during a game, but it's an inconvenience that lasts for about three seconds usually."

    IMO that is a violation of site rule 6, not that I'm the final arbiter. ;)

    I've never had it last anywhere near as short as three seconds. Usually there are multiple people filing by, and then your view is blocked not only by the people returning, but by all the people getting up to make way for them... it's pretty much a disaster and it always lasts 30 seconds minimum in my experience.

    I do think limiting it to in between batters would be an appropriate compromise.

    2006-08-23 13:23:52
    177.   JeffinTokyo
    164. I read it when you first posted it. After re-reading it again, I am almost certain that it has influenced the opinion I expressed today.
    2006-08-23 13:26:11
    178.   Eric Enders
    172 "I think there's room for sentiment in retiring numbers."

    Just to be clear, so do I. I just think it's inappropriate when sentiment is the only reason. Where there's sentiment mixed with actual credentials -- guys like Gilliam and Munson -- I'm OK with it.

    2006-08-23 13:34:37
    179.   Nagman
    Probably not in my lifetime, but I wish I could see what happens when the Celtics and Yankees start running out of numbers.
    2006-08-23 13:35:26
    180.   Steve
    I think too much is being made of the word "quality.". Its a term of art that has to be read contextually, like "earned" run average. Its just an arbitrary decision that some things will be counted and others won't. Whenever hendrickson had that one start where he allowed two baserunners an inning and have up two runs, nobody but the dodger pr department would call that a "quality" start, but that's what it is. Over the long run it should weed out pretenders, but then that's what the long run is for regardless of the existence of this particular stat. In that sense, it is probably redundant at best, and possibly harmful at worst, given baseball executives' propensity for self-delusion.
    2006-08-23 13:35:45
    181.   Eric Enders
    179 Would probably happen to a football team first, no?
    2006-08-23 13:38:31
    182.   Steve
    But then again, if self-delusion is a constant, then we're back at square one.
    2006-08-23 13:39:27
    183.   the OZ
    179 On TV's Futurama, all whole numbers had been retired by the year 3000. The players wore fractions.

    The rules of the game had changed, also. The ball was tethered to the mound with an elastic cord, among other weird things.

    2006-08-23 13:40:09
    184.   Nagman
    181 Perhaps. Seems like the Celts and Yankees lead all of sports in retired numbers but I'm just guessing but with the limitation on skill players numbers in the NFL, you could run out.

    Didn't basketball not allow double-digit numbers containing numerals greater than '5' in them at one point (for the referee's sake). Is that still in affect?

    2006-08-23 13:42:59
    185.   gibsonhobbs88
    169,176 - My experience the last game was closer to 176's experience plus I had people in my row constantly seat hopping with people they knew two rows below, then when the real tenants of those seats would show up, the customer's would go back to our row. This happened like two or three times and always in the middle of an important at bat with runners on. My view was constantly obstructed by these wanderlust fans.
    2006-08-23 13:44:17
    186.   bigcpa
    Pursuant to our L.A. golf chat from a week ago, I played Los Verdes yesterday in 5hr 20 min. Yes, all 18.

    With UCLA's home opener on Sept 2nd I'm unable to use my Dodger season seats. 2 seats, Loge Aisle 138, row K, just past the 1b bag. Asking face plus preferred parking in Lot 6 outside the Stadium Club. Email me at

    Love the Quality Start debate. I'm one of the only Roto commissioners in the 50 states that successfully implemented QS in lieu of Wins in a 5x5 league. Took a lot of preaching but I think it's worked out well. My fatal error was pickup up Chad "5 1/3" Billingsley.

    2006-08-23 13:45:53
    187.   Monterey Chris
    Schmidt is getting hammered in the 4th is now tied 4-4.
    2006-08-23 13:46:46
    188.   Greg S
    Just to clarify, they don't make you wait for the half inning. Just a break in the "action".
    2006-08-23 13:47:03
    189.   Jon Weisman
    176 - "IMO that is a violation of site rule 6, not that I'm the final arbiter. ;)"

    The ruling is: Not guilty.

    At least at Dodger Stadium, there just are not that many people in your direct line of sight.

    The between batters compromise probably wouldn't satisfy you, because by the time all the people make it down to their seats, the next batter would be up.

    I think a good number of people are courteous and try to be as unobtrusive as possible. Another set of people just need a gentle reminder. Another set of people will respond to a firm but reasoned "Down in front!'

    Someday, though, I will tell the story about the person in front of me who ignored all of the above.

    2006-08-23 13:48:23
    190.   Jon Weisman
    188 - So what does that mean?

    186 - I can remember debating quality starts with BigCPA, I think, in the early days of DT.

    2006-08-23 13:48:28
    191.   Eric Enders
    Someday, I will tell you about the mascot in front of me who ignored all the above.

    Fur almost went flying!

    2006-08-23 13:48:44
    192.   Travis
    184 That rule used to be in effect in the NBA, but teams started applying for exceptions in the early 1990's, starting (I think) with Shawn Bradley's #76 (a marketing ploy, seeing how he was 7'6" and on the Sixers). Others followed, and I think the NBA scrapped the rule entirely.

    I think it still exists in NCAA and high school, however.

    2006-08-23 13:48:51
    193.   bigcpa
    First ML HR for Chris Young- and no cheapie off Schmidt. The post-Green AZ lineup is getting leaner and meaner.
    2006-08-23 13:52:04
    194.   Jon Weisman
    I actually pleased that no one really took on the main topic of this morning's post.

    I do miss my Washington Nationals updates. When does Sam return from Oooooooooooocccccccccccccooooooo, Wisconsin?

    2006-08-23 13:52:08
    195.   Greg S
    190 I guess it's up to the particular usher. Certainly each new batter qualifies. A wild pitch, a trip to the mound. Anything that is likely to allow you enough time to get to your seat before the next pitch. It's really not too big a deal.
    2006-08-23 13:52:51
    196.   Eric Enders
    192 Looking through my handy-dandy UTEP basketball media guide, of all the players who have ever played for them, only two wore numbers with a digit higher than five. And both of those played in the 1952-53 season.

    So I think it's safe to say the rule is still in effect in the NCAA.

    2006-08-23 13:54:33
    197.   Jon Weisman
    195 - Sounds pretty reasonable, then, though I still question how effective it would be if the person's seats are near the front of the section. I just wouldn't want to be trapped.
    2006-08-23 13:54:50
    198.   Nagman
    190 - I believe at Petco they just make you wait til the current AB is over. It's not like they rope it off, an usher stands there with a sign asking you to please be courteous. Most people comply, but it kinda makes it worse because then you can have a large number of people walking en masse down the aisle between AB's.
    2006-08-23 13:56:46
    199.   regfairfield
    194 If you want to get particular, your marathon refrence is flawed. Very rarely is there a comeback in distance running. Once you drop out of the lead back, you're pretty much finished.

    Though this is just a runner picking nits.

    2006-08-23 13:57:30
    200.   Bob Timmermann
    College basketball requires players to have numbers with no digit higher than 5.

    The NBA doesn't.

    I believe in the international basketball games they are showing, the players are all numbered from 4 to 15.

    Show/Hide Comments 201-250
    2006-08-23 13:58:20
    201.   Greg S
    Efficacy and ushers not usually mentioned in the same sentence. They're just sort of there to.... umm... why are they there?
    2006-08-23 13:59:02
    202.   Travis
    196 From the NCAA Basketball Rule Book, Rule 3, Section 5, Article 10:

    "a. The following numbers are legal: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 00, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55. Team rosters can include 0 or 00 but not

    2006-08-23 13:59:13
    203.   mankatododger
    At the local college hockey games they make you wait until there is a stoppage of play. That can be a long time since whistles are less frequent in college hockey. They make no exceptions even if your seat is on the aisle in the top row.
    2006-08-23 14:01:46
    204.   Jon Weisman
    199 - Hmm. But you're thinking of the best marathons, not the marathons where there are only five runners and they're neither great nor horrible and ...

    Well, like I said, it was a relief that no one commented :)

    2006-08-23 14:02:30
    205.   Nagman
    Okay, so college basketball teams have to be more selective when retiring numbers than say, the San Diego Padres.
    2006-08-23 14:02:54
    206.   Jon Weisman
    By the way, good news on the Dodger Thoughts T-shirt front. Close to having designs (yes, plural) finished. Might have them ready for the stretch run in September.
    2006-08-23 14:04:06
    207.   King of the Hobos
    Tango has started his 2006 Scouting Report by the Fans for the Fans if anyone is interested in participating.

    2006-08-23 14:05:21
    208.   Greg S
    Trivia question: Who was the first team to have the trumpeting leading up to call to the crowd to yell "charge!"?

    Bob is exempt from all trivia questions on account of the fact that he knows everything.

    2006-08-23 14:16:57
    209.   Bob Timmermann
    And somebody asked me to look this question up last year in this very forum.
    2006-08-23 14:18:30
    210.   Daniel Zappala
    Since no one else mentioned it, I do remember when Diaz was traded to the Mets and I worried he would turn into a star for them. Too bad it hasn't worked out for him.
    2006-08-23 14:18:50
    211.   Andrew Shimmin
    Bic pens are garbage. When I worked for Staples I got hooked on Pilot G2s (the .5mm extra-fine point) and still prefer them to even really good pens. The best thing about Staples was their liberal Store Use policy; when I quit, I had quite a cache of pens.
    2006-08-23 14:20:27
    212.   Bob Timmermann
    I believe at hockey games, not letting people walk to their seats while the game is going on is to reduce the chance of someone not noticing an errant puck coming at their head.
    2006-08-23 14:22:30
    213.   D4P
    Do you prefer twisty-bottoms or clicky-tops...?
    2006-08-23 14:26:55
    214.   Jon Weisman
    211 - Actually, I use a Pilot Precise V7 at work, and I am not upset at it.

    Bics are to pens what wins are to pitching statistics.

    2006-08-23 14:27:24
    215.   Andrew Shimmin
    213- Clicky tops, of course; how is twisting something any fun at all? When I was a kid, I'd always get a box of probably a dozen Bic pens. Black ink, with the white body, and black cap. First thing I'd do was punch out the top of the cap, then cut the cap lengthwise, so that I could make them click. It was not uncommon for my teachers to threaten to throw me out of their classes. It only actually happened once, but, you know, some people just can't handle all the edge I bring.
    2006-08-23 14:27:52
    216.   Bob Timmermann
    I use Paper-Mate pens at work.
    I use Paper-Mate pens at home.

    You do the math.

    2006-08-23 14:29:54
    217.   Andrew Shimmin
    214- I've used those. I tend to tear the paper I'm writing on if I try using something with that long of a whatever the thing that sticks out the bottom, but doesn't distribute ink is called.
    2006-08-23 14:30:27
    218.   D4P
    Why do you take pens from home to work with you? Oh...
    2006-08-23 14:30:48
    219.   Eric Enders
    I use whatever's handy. However, I got a bunch of Bic clickers made with my business' logo on them because they were the best combo of price and quality. That's a good workmanlike pen.
    2006-08-23 14:31:53
    220.   D4P
    To end the suspense, I use pens and pencils as little as humanly possible. I hate writing by hand. My scribblings are virtually indecipherable, and my hand hurts after a few minutes or so.
    2006-08-23 14:32:25
    221.   Eric Enders
    You can't go wrong with the Pilot Dr. Grip either.
    2006-08-23 14:33:05
    222.   caseybarker
    I used to use pens that were made to look like roses. My wife took them to work, though. Now I just use pencils.
    2006-08-23 14:35:56
    223.   Linkmeister
    My Dad was a fountain pen fan. We still have about 20 ink cartridges and at least four bottles of ink in a drawer 13 years after he passed away.

    I'm a Parker T-Ball Jotter guy myself.

    2006-08-23 14:36:36
    224.   Marty
    206 Aww, I'm not interested anymore.
    2006-08-23 14:36:49
    225.   Marty
    Just Kidding
    2006-08-23 14:37:30
    226.   Eric Stephen
    I'm all about the Sanford Uniball Micro point.
    2006-08-23 14:38:22
    227.   Jon Weisman
    What's that outside? Oh, it's the ladies lining up to chat up the clicking, ink-happy Dodger Thoughts crew.
    2006-08-23 14:38:25
    228.   Eric Enders
    226 I used to swear by those things many years ago, but they go bad way too quickly. And it was too much of an effort for this lefty not to smear the ink.
    2006-08-23 14:38:45
    229.   Marty
    I'm partial to Pentel EnerGels. PLus I get them free.
    2006-08-23 14:39:35
    230.   Marty
    Chicks love the EnerGels
    2006-08-23 14:43:09
    231.   Andrew Shimmin
    221- I'm very suspicious of people who use those. I always expect it's the first step to a worker's comp claim.
    2006-08-23 14:43:58
    232.   trainwreck
    I don't know anything about our prospects going to the AFL aside from Elbert, Raglani, and Hu.

    Brian Akin
    Scott Elbert
    Casey Hoorelbeke
    Danny Muegge
    AJ Ellis
    Chin-Lung Hu
    Anthony Raglani

    2006-08-23 14:48:03
    233.   Andrew Shimmin
    Plus, the Dr. Grip is badly balanced; almost impossible to flip it, consistently.
    2006-08-23 14:48:17
    234.   Benaiah
    232 - Muegge came over with Navarro from Arizona from Green.
    2006-08-23 14:49:31
    235.   still bevens
    Casey Hoorelbeke's father is the lead singer of Rare Earth! Thats all I know (I dont even know who Rare Earth are).
    2006-08-23 14:51:48
    236.   Eric Enders
    233 I can flip it once or twice just fine. Can't do a full-fledged debater flip with it, but I can't do those with any kind of pen anyway.
    2006-08-23 14:54:11
    237.   regfairfield
    232 Akin - Was the closer for Vero to start the season, now in Jacksonville.

    Ellis - Bbackup catcher in Jacksonville. Playing because Brad Cresse is hurt.

    From what I wrote about Hoorelbeke at True Blue L.A.:

    One of the other players that has actual promise on this list, Hoorelbeke has taken over closer duty for the Suns with the departure of Mark Alexander.

    Hoorelbeke started his career as an undrafted free agent at the age of 24. After a relatively ineffective run as a starter in 2004, he was converted to relief in 2005 and he found great success. While he didn't overpower anyone, he threw 81 innings without allowing a home run at Vero Beach, one of the most home run friendly parks in the minors.

    Hoorelbeke continued his stingy ways at Jacksonville this year, giving up only one home run in 63.2 innings while increasing his strikeout rate to 7.69 per nine without an increase in walks. Hoorelbeke's downside is that he's 26, so any of these numbers should be considered in this context, but he's only been in the pros for three years. However, with Hoorelbeke's rule five eligibility looming (I can't tell if he'll be eligible this year or next year) stashing him on the 40 man probably isn't a bad idea. At worst, he'd provide some entertaining headlines. You can start with "A Hoorelble Outing" and work from there.

    2006-08-23 14:54:23
    238.   Bluebleeder87
    "Dodger general manager Ned Colletti didn't sound overcome with optimism.

    "I guess we're open-minded," Colletti said to Jackson. "We'll see where the winter takes us."

    that is why i think Ned Colletti is a good G.M.

    2006-08-23 14:54:47
    239.   Eric Enders
    2006-08-23 14:55:08
    240.   Linkmeister
    235 Hey, I think I have one of their albums.

    Don't ask me why the home page is secured. There's no password utility required.

    Caution: Big musical hit ("Get Ready") plays when you click on the link.

    2006-08-23 14:57:35
    241.   overkill94
    The best pen my company's supply closet had to offer was the Uniball Vision Elite. It does smear fairly easily, but it's got a nice precise tip that hardly ever fails. Most roller pens have a hard time keeping up with all the notes I have to make while doing an inspection, thus not making a mark too often.
    2006-08-23 14:57:44
    242.   Bluebleeder87

    Please give us an update Jon, when it happens.

    2006-08-23 14:59:14
    243.   Linkmeister
    239 I'll be darned. I actually have two of their albums. Eric's AMG review didn't think much of either of them. It's been so long since I listened that I have no opinion.

    2006-08-23 14:59:19
    244.   overkill94
    240 I love their version of "Get Ready". I think it's because the lead singer has a lot of swagger.
    2006-08-23 15:00:47
    245.   caseybarker
    I just want to Ce-el-ebrate another day of liiiiife, and a Dodger win tonight.
    2006-08-23 15:05:24
    246.   Bob Timmermann
    Giants reclaim the lead over Arizona 7-6. Game in the top of the 8th.
    2006-08-23 15:05:46
    247.   bhsportsguy
    And If the D-Backs could have Colorado's pitching....3 run comeback for the Giants.
    2006-08-23 15:08:21
    248.   Bob Timmermann
    The Giants would tie Arizona for third if they hold on.
    2006-08-23 15:09:39
    249.   Marty
    I just want to celebrate is a great song. It played during the credits of an episode of Entourage this year.
    2006-08-23 15:09:52
    250.   natepurcell
    So yesterday I was able to watch the dodgers game on mosaic. Previously, just using and being in Tucson, all Padre games are blacked out for me since somehow Tucson is in Padre country.

    I hope I can cheat the system again tonight.

    Show/Hide Comments 251-300
    2006-08-23 15:10:26
    251.   Eric Enders
    Trivia: Whose Bill James comp list is this?

    George Grantham (930)
    Edgardo Alfonzo (886)
    Denny Lyons (880)
    Freddie Lindstrom (874) *
    Jeff Cirillo (870)
    Mike Greenwell (863)
    Irish Meusel (855)
    Joe Randa (853)
    Bobby Abreu (846)
    Gregg Jefferies (845)

    2006-08-23 15:13:54
    252.   regfairfield
    251 Even though I'm sure it's not the answer, I want to say Kevin Stocker.
    2006-08-23 15:17:46
    253.   bhsportsguy
    Apparently David Ross can't frame a pitch. And the Red's pitcher who runs in from the bullpen should have turned around instead of taking two steps forward.

    2006-08-23 15:18:30
    254.   Eric Enders
    Not Stocker, obviously, though that would be funny.

    It's a pretty weird list, because most of the time a player's comp list consists exclusively of players from his own era that played the same position. This list has players from all eras and all different positions.

    2006-08-23 15:20:14
    255.   King of the Hobos
    251 I figured it out by cheating, and I'll admit he was not one of my guesses. Edgardo Alfonzo is similar to him? How?
    2006-08-23 15:29:34
    256.   overkill94
    251 All I can decipher from that list is it's either a 3B or OF and hits for moderate power. Bobby Abreu looks like the oddball on that list since none of the other guys have great speed or patience (well, the guys I know at least like Randa, Cirillo, and Alfonzo).

    Jose Valentin?

    2006-08-23 15:31:37
    257.   Bluebleeder87
    I hope I can cheat the system again tonight.

    i'm sure you'll find a way, hey natE how do you know so much about rooks?

    2006-08-23 15:32:47
    258.   bhsportsguy
    Giants win move into third place tie.

    Here is how the West does when it plays each other.

    LA vs. Arizona 6-6
    LA vs. Colorado 10-3
    LA vs. San Diego 3-10
    LA vs. San Francisco 10-6

    San Diego vs. Arizona 3-6
    San Diego vs. Colorado 5-8
    San Diego vs. LA 10-3
    San Diego vs. San Francisco 6-10

    Arizona vs. Colorado 10-6
    Arizona vs. LA 6-6
    Arizona vs. San Diego 6-3
    Arizona vs. San Francisco 6-10

    San Francisco vs. Arizona 10-6
    San Francisco vs. Colorado 5-7
    San Francisco vs. LA 6-10
    San Francisco vs. San Diego 10-6

    Colorado vs. Arizona 6-10
    Colorado vs. LA 3-10
    Colorado vs. San Diego 8-5
    Colorado vs. San Francisco 7-5

    I have no idea what this means, probably a good thing that the Dodgers only have one more series left with the Padres.

    2006-08-23 15:33:51
    259.   Gagne55
    251 I'm gonna guess Beltre. It has got to be a thirb baseman of some sort.
    2006-08-23 15:36:23
    260.   Eric Enders
    I will say that the player in question is considered a greater player than anybody on his comp list.
    2006-08-23 15:37:02
    261.   caseybarker
    Col beats up on SD, SD beats up on LA, LA beats up on Col, Col beats up on SF, SF beats up on AZ, AZ beats up on SD...

    I was going to say it's like a dog chasing it's tail, but it is more like many dogs all chasing their tails at once.

    2006-08-23 15:37:14
    262.   Eric Enders
    And none of the guesses so far are correct.
    2006-08-23 15:38:06
    263.   caseybarker
    Todd Walker?
    2006-08-23 15:38:23
    264.   Andrew Shimmin
    Anybody looking for a new Quixotic battle?

    2006-08-23 15:38:35
    265.   Travis
    251 That's just vicious. Mild hint: that's the B-R top 10 comp list; the Bill James comp list would look slightly different.
    2006-08-23 15:40:29
    266.   bhsportsguy
    The Reds are back in the NL West for about three weeks as they play 16 out of 19 against the West, they play 3 games in Los Angeles and also play home and home with the Padres and the Giants, somehow a 3 game series against the Pirates is also in that 19 game span.
    2006-08-23 15:40:57
    267.   Eric Enders
    265 I was under the impression that the BB-Ref and Bill James comp scores were one and the same. And if you read the fine print, BB-Ref is under the same impression.
    2006-08-23 15:41:16
    268.   fanerman
    265 - Didn't he say it's the Bill James comp list?
    2006-08-23 15:41:44
    269.   Gagne55
    Oh. I found it. Haha. All I had to do was look up Grantham's most similar player. :-S
    2006-08-23 15:42:24
    270.   Nagman
    Drew gets the night off, not that he hasn't taken the entire season series with the Padres off. Lugo in RF.
    2006-08-23 15:42:30
    271.   Eric Enders

    "Similarity scores are not my concept. Bill James introduced them nearly 15 years ago, and I lifted his methodology from his book The Politics of Glory (p. 86-106)."

    2006-08-23 15:42:35
    272.   Travis
    267 B-R's explanation of similarity scores:

    2006-08-23 15:43:00
    273.   Gagne55
    Jackie Robinson for the win! :D
    2006-08-23 15:43:19
    274.   Travis
    271 Keep reading the explanation for the difference between B-R and James. It's minor, but it affects this player more than most.
    2006-08-23 15:43:46
    275.   Gagne55
    And, yes, I used baseball-reference.
    2006-08-23 15:44:05
    276.   Jon Weisman
    Without cheating, let's play, "Where's Julio?"

    Predict Lugo's position in tonight's lineup:


    Pitcher and catcher are not eligible.

    2006-08-23 15:44:11
    277.   blue22
    Ah ha. The Abreu comp makes more sense, but Randa and Cirillo are borderline blasphemous.

    Who's Koufax's comp - Russ Ortiz?

    2006-08-23 15:44:36
    278.   Jon Weisman
    Nuts, 270 spoiled my contest. Too slow!
    2006-08-23 15:44:45
    279.   Eric Enders
    271 I did keep reading. I'm still pretty sure I'm correct.
    2006-08-23 15:45:35
    280.   Eric Enders
    279 Now I'm pretty sure I'm an idiot.
    2006-08-23 15:45:40
    281.   Travis
    The difference (B-R's is probably the "right" method):

    Each position has a value, and you subtract the difference between the two players position. James just uses primary position, but I computed an average position for players who had more than one primary position.

    2006-08-23 15:47:22
    282.   Jon Weisman
    Drew's OPS vs. San Diego in 2006: .335
    Drew's OPS vs. Arizona in 2006: 1.221

    Arizona it is!

    2006-08-23 15:47:29
    283.   Nagman
    276 - Sorry. But that sounds like fun, I won't spoil it next time although waiting for Josh to post the lineup is one of the highlights of my day, sad to say. It was getting boring with that "four in a row" stuff.
    2006-08-23 15:48:37
    284.   caseybarker
    264 I am in favor of caps off when in a restaurant, home, or other somewhat intimate setting...
    2006-08-23 15:48:43
    285.   bhsportsguy
    When I looked at the batter's history against Woody Williams, one guy did not do as well as the rest, Drew who is 2-15 lifetime, plus he gets that extra day. Lugo has not fared much better 3-14 but everyone else who has some history with Williams have all hit over .300, even Betemit is 1-3. Ethier and Martin have never faced him.

    Furcal, SS
    Lofton, CF
    Garciaparra, 1B
    Kent, 2B
    Ethier, LF
    Lugo, RF
    Betemit, 3B
    Martin, C
    Penny, P

    I also think that Grady is really trying to get some games for Lugo to play in.

    2006-08-23 15:49:25
    286.   Eric Enders
    283 I won't say it's one of the highlights of my day. But I do try to get the lineup as quickly as possible so I know whether to pull Nomar, Kent, Ethier, or Martin from my fantasy lineup.
    2006-08-23 15:49:57
    287.   bhsportsguy
    276 Sorry Jon, did not see the puzzle question, I guess 3B. Darn it I'm wrong.
    2006-08-23 15:50:06
    288.   Gagne55
    Jon, you need to update the 25 man roster on the side of the screen. Perez, Cruz, and Alomar should be under past Dodgers.
    2006-08-23 15:50:47
    289.   Eric Enders
    I'm in favor of caps off in blogs and e-mails. Anywhere else is fair game. I'm one of those uncouth people who tends to wear baseball caps in inappropriate settings. It got me in trouble a few times in high school.
    2006-08-23 15:51:39
    290.   Gagne55
    I don't think Penny is gonna do well tonight. Just call it a hunch. :-/
    2006-08-23 15:52:08
    291.   Eric Enders
    Can we get Ethier a night off sometime? I can't remember the last time he didn't start a game and he's looked pretty bad recently.
    2006-08-23 15:53:33
    292.   caseybarker
    Not to mention backwards, sideways, in-between alaTT Sabathia...

    One of my friends always had a problem if your cap's bill was still flat. He once took mine of my head and rolled the bill between his hands.

    2006-08-23 15:54:25
    293.   regfairfield
    291 He had six hits in the last two games of the Giants series.
    2006-08-23 15:54:25
    294.   Jon Weisman
    287 - You're too kind.

    288 - Yeah, I'm all too aware. I have a love-hate relationship with the sidebar. I'll try to get to it one of these days.

    291 - He did not start last Monday but appeared late in the game.

    2006-08-23 15:55:22
    295.   Eric Enders
    This one is a lot easier

    Ray Lankford (938)
    Reggie Sanders (933)
    Eric Davis (925)
    Bill Nicholson (922)
    Raul Mondesi (921)
    Ben Oglivie (909)
    Larry Doby (909) *
    Rick Monday (905)
    Bobby Thomson (901)
    Jeff Burroughs (896)

    2006-08-23 15:56:38
    296.   Jon Weisman
    295 - I was going to guess Raul Mondesi ... until I saw, Raul Mondesi.
    2006-08-23 16:02:07
    297.   King of the Hobos
    In GCL Dodger news, Jhonny Nunez and Thomas Melgarejo combined on a 4 hit shutout to win game one of the GCL championship series 2-0. Nunez struck out out 8 in 6 IP, before Melgarejo pitched 3 innings of relief. Francisco Lizarraga led the offense, going 2 for 2 with a double, walk, sacrifice, and stolen base. Brian Matthews had a pair of singles, and both Mattingly and Elian Herrera hit a double.
    2006-08-23 16:07:56
    298.   bigcpa
    294 Add Guzman to the list of Ex-Dodgers. :( Also shift Dessens & Carrara from Ex-Dodgers to 2006 Dodgers. And put Gagne in for $5M plus incentives on the 2007 Payroll Worksheet.
    2006-08-23 16:09:05
    299.   still bevens
    Someone on the inside the dodgers comments was complaing about Drew missing games. Isnt Drew like 2nd or 3rd on the team in terms of games played?
    2006-08-23 16:12:11
    300.   Jon Weisman
    I haven't updated the sidebar since June 28. You don't need to point things out.
    Show/Hide Comments 301-350
    2006-08-23 16:16:38
    301.   bhsportsguy
    JD Drew's career high in games played in a season is 145 in 2004. As of tonight, he has played in 113 games, started 101 in RF. He starts about 5 out of 6 1/2 games so he should start at least 30 more games and probably pinch hit in another 2 or 3 so he shoud come close to that number which of course was the number (140 games) that Depo talked about when he signed JD Drew.
    2006-08-23 16:29:02
    302.   Daniel Zappala
    Shoot, Frank Thomas can still hit. I think he's the biggest reason the A's are still in first. A's up 3-0 after 1 and they just keep winning.
    2006-08-23 16:30:14
    303.   caseybarker
    295 Milton Bradley
    2006-08-23 16:31:50
    304.   Eric Enders
    303 Same Dodger uniform, same fiery competitive style of play, same outrageous temper, same blend of power and speed, much different treament by media.
    2006-08-23 16:35:01
    305.   Daniel Zappala
    Same Dodger uniform, same fiery competitive style of play, same outrageous temper, same blend of power and speed, much different treament by media.

    Kobe Bryant? Oh, you said Dodger uniform...

    2006-08-23 16:37:09
    306.   Linkmeister
    304 Richie (aka Dick) Allen?
    2006-08-23 16:37:16
    307.   Marty
    Kirk Gibson
    2006-08-23 16:39:09
    308.   bhsportsguy
    Mark Mulder came back too soon? 4-0 Metropolitans after 1.
    2006-08-23 16:41:22
    309.   caseybarker
    Kirk Gibson?
    2006-08-23 16:41:59
    310.   bhsportsguy
    With all the bats that the Devil Rays have, I wonder if Madden sees Navarro as another Benjie Molina since Dionner is batting 5th today.
    2006-08-23 16:42:08
    311.   caseybarker
    I would also guess Daryl Strawberry because he and Eric Davis were buddies.
    2006-08-23 16:43:13
    312.   Eric Enders
    I lobbed a BP fastball up there, and 307 and 309 connected.
    2006-08-23 16:47:19
    313.   Bob Timmermann
    Jose Vizcaino is batting leadoff for the Cardinals tonight.

    The NL Central and the NL West are making me hum "Momma's Got a Squeezebox"

    2006-08-23 16:47:54
    314.   Marty
    I always follow Manny Mota's advice:

    Close your eyes, swing as hard as you can and hope you hit the ball.

    I actually heard him say that on an interview.

    2006-08-23 16:48:33
    315.   Marty
    Bob works blue again!
    2006-08-23 16:57:09
    316.   caseybarker
    'cause Ethier's playin' all night, and the hits are all right... !
    2006-08-23 17:02:12
    317.   Eric Enders
    GCL Dodgers won the first game of the league finals against the Red Sox today, 2-0. A win tomorrow and they are Gulf Coast League champs.
    2006-08-23 17:02:29
    318.   Bob Timmermann
    You mean the song isn't about a woman with an accordion?
    2006-08-23 17:21:46
    319.   Bluebleeder87

    i wish i could explain my thoughts on hats.

    2006-08-23 17:28:52
    320.   Bluebleeder87

    Marty, I think he's talking about pitchers.

    2006-08-23 17:29:56
    321.   PDH5204

    Who is dreaming of their graves? I only said that the Furies will be following Mr. Hall around forever [and deservedly so]. Now, if he minds his manners, the Furies will mind theirs [I mean, it's not like he killed his mother or brother or such, in which case the Furies would truly be unforgiving].

    But more to the point, no one, certainly not me, expects the team to perform at the level of the recent clip. You yourself otherwise provided the starting point last night in response to someone else, when you said that only 40 games or so separate last from first. That is correct. What decides those 40 games? Do some fail to hit the cutoff man when need be, do some fail to advance the runner, do some walk too many, and at the wrong time [never a good time, but some times are more worse than other times], are some keeping their mistakes in the park, and is the defense of some doing its job, and are some taking the extra base or even trying to do so, etc.?

    And that's why I was a tad bit testy last night. And as I said last night, well, let me elaborate a bit. Toby should have been in either the, as soon as Lugo goes I take the strike, mode [unless, of course, there's two strikes], or the, I need to make the judgment on whether to swing to protect the runner, mode. Those are the only two acceptable choices, given that he's our number 8 hitter and it otherwise didn't look like run and hit to me. And as concerns the latter mode, I don't expect him to be able to parrot the actual math for the calculation, but I do expect every batter on the team to know what pitch velocity means, just who is pitching, what the particular runner's speed means, and just how good an arm and mechanics does this catcher have. Based on that, before Toby even gets in the box, he or someone else need decide on which of the two modes is to be used, and if the latter mode, then all it comes down to is, if Lugo reaches point A before Peavy is at point B, Toby takes the strike, since given pitch velocity [and we'll assume fastball], runner speed, and catcher's arm and mechanics, if Lugo is at A before pitcher is at B, then Lugo has the base stolen. And it looked like, in a rather instanteous and before Toby even started to swing sort of way, that the base was stolen. I saw it, the aging Vin Scully saw it, and just about everybody else but Toby Hall saw it. And, no, that's not just because he was hitting while we weren't.

    And, Jon, let's assume that such had happened, so now Lugo's on third and there's two strikes on Hall. Even if Hall then strikes out, his taking the pitch and allowing the stolen base would be tantamount to a ground or fly out that advanced the runner. We would have considered that a "productive" out. And that's why he takes that strike. And if Toby strikes out, then Hendy either bunts Lugo home, or if thought capable, he hits a grounder to short or second, scoring the run. And I too am otherwise not the biggest fan of what some call "little ball," but given Lugo, Hall, and Hendy, with the double, it was time to play little ball and score that run, and score that first run of the game [let them worry about coming from behind].

    And might I simply end by saying that last night could always turn out to be 1 of the 40 and while I cannot say that the team would have won [since it would subsequently have been 1-1], at least the game wouldn't have ended after the Dodgers' at bat in the 9th. The God of baseball otherwise tends to show mercy on those executing the fundamentals [some intelligent aggressiveness is sure to win that One's favor as well].

    Sorry, one more, re the "quality start" and other such numbers, when I saw that 4.50 ERA, I literally cringed. What has happened to the state of pitching in baseball? I wasn't joking yesterday when I wrote that I wanted that old, last staff, of glory. Here are the numbers for '78:

    Hooton: 19-10, 2.71 ERA, 32 games started, with 10 complete games.

    John: 17-10, 3.30 ERA, 30 games started with 7 complete games.

    Rau: 15-9, 3.26 ERA, 30 games started with 7 complete games.

    Sutton: 15-11, 3.55 ERA, 34 games started with 12 complete games.

    Rhoden: 10-8, 3.65 ERA, 23 games started with 6 complete games.

    And last but not least, since he came up late that year:

    Welch: 7-4, 2.03 ERA, 13 games started with 4 complete games.

    And for more perspective, to date, in 126 games, the Dodgers have allowed 575 runs. In '78, over the 162, they allowed 573 runs.

    The explanation for the mediocrity, in large part, is, well, look at the RA for '78 and '06. Not a pretty sight. Now consider runs scored. '06 over 126 games: 627. '78 over 162 games: 727. So rather similar numbers in that regard, leaving us with pitching.

    And, Jon, the real objection here is not simply to Mr. Hall, but to your line of "We know that all too well." That didn't used to be the case and the futility was otherwise unknown. And given the large market and the revenue that comes with it, no reason why it need ever be the case. I don't expect the team to pony up like Steinbrenner, but some more money and some wiser choices, with the emphasis on pitching, and maybe the team rises above that tide of mediocrity to reassume its rightful position as one of the select and premier franchises in the major leagues. As I otherwise said, we're a Drew becomes Reggie Smith, a true ace, and a Doug Rau away [as yourself said, Penny rates as a top flight no. 2 starter, and Lowe would certainly make a fine no. 3, so we need that ace, someone to be Doug Rau, and then whoever is left that looks promising can play Rick Rhoden]. Oh, almost forgot, the relative lack of power will be made up for by the fewer unearned runs that the return to glory team will allow and the higher OBP as well.

    Oh, and Jon, it's not animosity, hate, or mere ill temper that accounts for the emotion, but instead, love and frustration. We're always the hardest, performance wise, on those we love and expect the most from. And if Toby can understand that, then he'll take my remarks for what they are, the correct criticism with that frustration laden topping, with that last only existing because we all so much want him to succeed, and it's otherwise let the frustration out via the topping, or else have a good psychotherapist on the payroll. Of course, we could skip the therapist and use your blog as a sort of writing cure [if Freud can it call his "talking cure," then no reason why I can't call it my "writing cure."]. And, sorry, but careful re the statement of mission for the blog, since some might claim that such is what they are here for...

    2006-08-23 17:35:32
    322.   bluetahoe
    im really drunk right now and im feeling honory
    2006-08-23 17:39:55
    323.   Zak
    322 I hope you mean ornery and not horny.
    2006-08-23 17:40:49
    324.   bigcpa
    322 OK, start breaking down 321.
    2006-08-23 17:43:58
    325.   Eric Enders
    323 But maybe there are drunk girls in his apartment.
    2006-08-23 17:51:44
    326.   bluetahoe
    323 maybe thats a subconscial thing. after the wife puts the youngins to bed i intend on doing the hibbidee dibbidee,

    initisad i ment onory

    2006-08-23 17:52:03
    327.   Zak
    325 But he would be ornery if they ruined his cable connection... and also horny. Maybe honory means both.
    2006-08-23 17:52:53
    328.   Zak
    326 I know what you meant... I was just joshin'.
    2006-08-23 17:53:58
    329.   bigcpa
    326 OK so now that you're on the truth serum, do you really think Colletti is smarter than DePo?
    2006-08-23 17:54:32
    330.   Zak
    Jose Vizcaino just went yard.
    2006-08-23 17:59:08
    331.   Bluebleeder87
    i wish i could explain my thoughts on hats.

    my Dad had the perfect cure for unbroken down gloves (i swear it works to perfection!!)

    ps my comment sparked another thought in my brain.

    2006-08-23 17:59:23
    332.   overkill94
    321 PDH5204 is running away with the words per post (W/P) title. I'm pretty sure Steve's bringing up the rear.
    2006-08-23 18:00:22
    333.   King of the Hobos
    Laroche is back in the lineup tonight, so hopefully this means his injury wasn't serious.
    2006-08-23 18:01:23
    334.   Gen3Blue
    For some reason, what PDH says makes quite a bit of sense to me, baseball being the game of pre-calculation it is. And the glory years of the middle 60's featured pitching, speed and very few HR's.
    And I am not drunk in the least.
    2006-08-23 18:05:41
    335.   Gen3Blue
    I hope at sometime in September we can see Ethier, Laroche ,Kemp, Loney and Martin start together in a Jax Five reunion (sort of). This would probably mean we were already in or out of the play-offs.
    2006-08-23 18:06:24
    336.   regfairfield
    334 I too agree, albeit to a lesser extent. Hall should be aware of his situation. but swinging in that situation doesn't cost the Dodgers much, and he even could have saved Lugo from getting thrown out.

    But, if Hall can't even master the concept of "if the ball is out of the strike zone, don't swing", I really can't fault him for not being able to figure this out.

    2006-08-23 18:14:39
    337.   Marty
    But PDH is referring to the 70s pitching
    2006-08-23 18:17:17
    338.   regfairfield
    337 In the second half.
    2006-08-23 18:24:04
    339.   bluetahoe

    iwishi wereborn shortand fat

    2006-08-23 18:31:13
    340.   Eric Enders
    339 No, you don't. Trust me on that one.
    2006-08-23 18:34:07
    341.   bluetahoe
    i just wantto win. i dont want topuke.qwhy why why
    2006-08-23 18:38:29
    342.   bigcpa
    341 OK cold shower time. We'll wake you up when Joey B comes in.
    2006-08-23 18:44:04
    343.   bluetahoe
    hbes my boy
    2006-08-23 18:45:28
    344.   dzzrtRatt
    335 Did Ethier play even a game in Jacksonville? Or did Logan White just use his powers of hypnosis to make it seem as if he was a Dodger prospect all along?
    2006-08-23 18:47:28
    345.   trainwreck
    No, he didn't.
    2006-08-23 18:48:31
    346.   regfairfield
    The Royals are coming close to blowing a 10 run 1st. It's 10-7 in the 5th against Cleveland.
    2006-08-23 18:48:32
    347.   Eric Enders
    We will never see a Jacksonville Five reunion unless Colletti trades the rest of them to the Devil Rays too.
    2006-08-23 18:50:20
    348.   dzzrtRatt

    PDH: "We're always the hardest, performance wise, on those we love and expect the most from. And if Toby can understand that, then he'll take my remarks for what they are, the correct criticism with that frustration laden topping, with that last only existing because we all so much want him to succeed, and it's otherwise let the frustration out via the topping, or else have a good psychotherapist on the payroll."

    Toby Hall: Lemme see. Two fingers means a finger means a curveball...and three fingers means...d'oh! Start over...

    2006-08-23 18:50:55
    349.   D4P
    I hereby nominate the following for Jon's "Thank You for Not" list below:

    11. Posting while drunk
    12. Posting while pretending to be drunk

    2006-08-23 18:52:37
    350.   Bob Timmermann

    I think you have a cogent argument.

    Show/Hide Comments 351-400
    2006-08-23 19:00:13
    351.   Jon Weisman
    Game thread is open.

    349 - poised for acceptance

    Comment status: comments have been closed. Baseball Toaster is now out of business.