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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
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12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

August 23 Game Chat
2006-08-23 18:57
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

Tonight's Game

Comments (203)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2006-08-23 19:02:56
1.   Bob Timmermann
Two potential Odalisings going on tonight.

The Royals scored 10 in the 1st and lead Cleveland now by by just 10-7.

The Mets lead St. Louis 10-2 in the 4th and it's now 10-7 in the 8th.

2006-08-23 19:06:05
2.   gpellamjr
1 Bob, I may not be posting much anymore, but I'm reading. Watch that grammar and spelling. I'll be reading.
2006-08-23 19:06:59
3.   lakerican
here, it feels like being in a cave...
2006-08-23 19:07:24
4.   Bob Timmermann
My sincerest apologeez.
2006-08-23 19:10:08
5.   Bob Timmermann
Woody Williams has held Dodger batters to a .206 batting average against him coming into this game.

Overall, batters hit .257 against Williams.

Very odd.

2006-08-23 19:11:34
6.   caseybarker
I always thought Dave Roberts looked a little loopy.
2006-08-23 19:14:25
7.   Gen3Blue
Furcal-Kent cant do a thing against the Pads for some reason
And we are going to have to go through all these high counts for five ao six innings!
Oh well, I must be able to take the ups and downs.
2006-08-23 19:17:14
8.   Franklin Stubbs
I'm psyched for this game. The past two have been great. Let's hope the Dodgers can put it all together tonight!! GO BLUE
2006-08-23 19:17:31
9.   Gen3Blue
Roberts always felt like a Dodger to me. I trade anyone but a prospect for him.
2006-08-23 19:18:12
10.   trainwreck
I would like to see another replay of that slide.
2006-08-23 19:18:35
11.   overkill94
He was out! Maybe that was a make-up call for calling Cameron out last night.
2006-08-23 19:19:09
12.   Bluebleeder87
i like Penny today, don't know why but I do.

if he get's Adrian Gonzalez right at this moment i'll like our chances even more.

2006-08-23 19:19:14
13.   gpellamjr
According to the Padre announcers, that throw was not close, according to my eyes, Roberts was clearly out.
2006-08-23 19:20:30
14.   Bluebleeder87
were in the world was that pitch to Adrian Gonzales!!?
2006-08-23 19:21:10
15.   gpellamjr
11 I've complained about this disproportionately (that's my new word) here before, but it seems to me that the Dodgers have been the victims of more bad umpiring than have they been the beneficiaries.
2006-08-23 19:21:31
16.   Bluebleeder87
Gonzalez didn't see Penny's fastball all that well.
2006-08-23 19:22:44
17.   overkill94
During the big streak they seemed to catch a few breaks (Marlins game anyone?), but the last couple days it seems to have swung back the other way.

I don't know how an ump could miss that call on Roberts unless he went with the assumption that a high throw shouldn't have gotten the runner in time.

2006-08-23 19:23:15
18.   Bob Timmermann
Chad Billingsley's soul has transmigrated into the body of Brad Penny.
2006-08-23 19:23:28
19.   Franklin Stubbs
Ooof Penny
2006-08-23 19:24:20
20.   Bluebleeder87
well these umpires are incunsistent.
2006-08-23 19:25:38
21.   Bluebleeder87
hanger to the Padres hitter. 2-0 Padres.
2006-08-23 19:26:43
22.   Steve
17 - that's what generally happens. The umpires can't see the play and so they guess based on various cues, then bellicosely claim that questioning their wild guess would threaten the free world as we know it.
2006-08-23 19:27:39
23.   trainwreck
Penny is throwing mad now.
2006-08-23 19:28:52
24.   Bluebleeder87
i wanna know how many times Penny's curve has been hit for hits?? & do the dodgers know that?? (maybe i'm wrong for thinking this but it just pop'ed in my head)
2006-08-23 19:29:10
25.   Franklin Stubbs
35 pitches in the first inning. We're in for a doozy!
2006-08-23 19:30:04
26.   overkill94
We can NOT get swept by the freakin Padres again
2006-08-23 19:30:31
27.   Bob Timmermann
$32.61 an hour! Why that's a $1.25/hour raise!
2006-08-23 19:31:17
28.   overkill94
There's a Thurston alert in Chicago right now
2006-08-23 19:32:30
29.   Disabled List
1 We need Williams to Odalisize this game now.
2006-08-23 19:32:34
30.   dkminnick
Ever notice how Brad Penny has to yell at someone whenever things aren't going his way? Grady Little, Lofton, and tonight - the home plate ump. He strikes me as the kind of guy who doesn't like to take responsibility for his own actions. Not an attractive quality.
2006-08-23 19:32:40
31.   Bob Timmermann
Mets hold on to beat the Cardinals 10-8.
2006-08-23 19:33:50
32.   Steve
24 - I don't know whether that's true or not but 1) the dodgers would know it if it was and 2) the first thing they would look at is whether he was tipping it or throwing it in a predictable pattern.
2006-08-23 19:34:30
33.   Bluebleeder87
this ump is inconsistent.
2006-08-23 19:34:51
34.   dkminnick
Is this a replay of a previous Dodger/Padre game? Deja vu.
2006-08-23 19:35:59
35.   Bluebleeder87
Ever notice how Brad Penny has to yell at someone whenever things aren't going his way?

maybe it's his way of getting pumped up! i don't blame him one bit

2006-08-23 19:36:26
36.   Steve
Odalisizing is the new Jazzercizing. Maybe Odalis should try it.
2006-08-23 19:37:43
37.   Bluebleeder87
hopefully our hitters show that good 'ol college try.
2006-08-23 19:38:12
38.   Franklin Stubbs
30 -- totally. There was a game I went to where Penny was thrown out at first base I was struck what a hot headed thing to do in an important game.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2005/07/15/SPGN5DOH7M1.DTL

2006-08-23 19:38:18
39.   dkminnick
35 - I agree about the ump, but that's baseball. A good pitcher has to learn to pitch with the ump in mind.
2006-08-23 19:38:38
40.   Eric L
22 In simpler terms, alot of umpires have watched certain scenarios play out a number of times in their careers and anticipate the outcome of the play.

Based on what they anticipate, they make the call. Obviously, you aren't supposed to make a call based on this type of information, but it happens.

I imagine that it is even harder to avoid making these types of calls in the big leagues.

2006-08-23 19:38:58
41.   Steve
Too bad Alex Cora isn't around. He kills Woody Williams.
2006-08-23 19:41:27
42.   dkminnick
38- I forgot about that game. Yep, it's a pattern. He looks like he's just out there trying to throw as hard as he can right now. A lot of good it's doing him. Settle down and pitch, Brad.
2006-08-23 19:41:27
43.   Bob Timmermann
41

I think Cora plays that way against Williams because he killed someone in William's family and that was his way of atoning.

2006-08-23 19:42:27
44.   dkminnick
43 - LOL!
2006-08-23 19:42:47
45.   Bluebleeder87
sit down Cameron!
2006-08-23 19:44:59
46.   das411
Yo Bob! The Philz just picked up their 3rd save in 3 nights from 3 different pitchers. Is this yours or Mike's territory to explore and post about accordingly?
2006-08-23 19:45:04
47.   Disabled List
36 "Odalisizing!!! Feel the burn!!! We'll teach you our scientifically proven techniques, like hanging breaking balls and 85-mph fastballs! Those 4-run leads will melt away in no time!!!"
2006-08-23 19:45:33
48.   Andrew Shimmin
Wilber II aborted the rally.
2006-08-23 19:45:35
49.   Bob Timmermann
Neifi Perez is batting .341 in his career against Woody Williams.
2006-08-23 19:46:16
50.   Franklin Stubbs
Did anyone else hear the on camera / in dugout swearing after Wilson's homer?
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2006-08-23 19:46:47
51.   Bob Timmermann
Betemit is now just the third current member of the Dodgers with a home run off of Woody Williams.

Garciaparra and Kent have also hit home runs against him.

2006-08-23 19:47:05
52.   Gen3Blue
On the Roberts steal, the throw clearly beat him. But no man alive could bring it down the six feet needed to tag him in time.
He was way safe.
What is so bad about these loosing streaks is how predictable the D's get. In the first few innings, Penny rarely can throw strikes, sometimes he does OK, sometimes we start behind. Then we don't seem to have many leaders. When we feel we are whipped, most of the guys have terrible at bats.
2006-08-23 19:48:57
53.   D4P
51
Betemit, Garciaparra, and Kent are the only current members of the Dodgers with a home run against anybody
2006-08-23 19:49:44
54.   Bluebleeder87
40

the umps should realise/thank there lucky stars that they have the job that they do (just !@#$%^ call a good game is all i ask!!)

2006-08-23 19:50:07
55.   Bob Timmermann
46
Mike is Mr. Relief Pitching.

The Phillies and Padres have the same record right now. They are both 1 1/2 games out of te wild card.

2006-08-23 19:50:45
56.   overkill94
52 Are you being facetious? The replay showed that Roberts was clearly out.
2006-08-23 19:51:30
57.   Bluebleeder87
Jon you know how apasionado i am, so please understand.
2006-08-23 19:55:24
58.   Bluebleeder87
Brad just gave me goosebumps on that play!
2006-08-23 19:55:25
59.   dkminnick
Now THAT was a nice play, Brad!
2006-08-23 19:57:37
60.   Bluebleeder87
this umpire dose not give us any breaks.
2006-08-23 19:58:18
61.   Gen3Blue
56 I'll look again. I'm in an ugly mood and it could affect my judgement.
As usual, when we start collapsing so does my internet connection, because they have continued to hook too many people to it. Time-Warner has bought Adelphia and promises to correct these problems, but I am far from optimistic.
2006-08-23 19:59:19
62.   Steve
If we put something shiny on Lugo's hat, maybe it will distract Colletti to the point that he won't be able to focus on his weekly Devil Ray giveaway.
2006-08-23 19:59:29
63.   Eric L
54 Just as an aside, my job working with special ed kids is easier than umpiring.
2006-08-23 20:00:51
64.   Gen3Blue
Yay Lugo!
We should stop playing utility players and bring up the prospects. If we miss the playoffs this year, so be it. This team would not show well in the post-season.
2006-08-23 20:00:57
65.   Bluebleeder87
yeah ump! keep on calling the pitches 3 hours later!
2006-08-23 20:05:31
66.   dkminnick
65- Doug Harvey was the first ump I saw who employed late, nonchalant calls. He was the senior NL umpire at the time and many other umps began to follow his lead (not Dutch Rennert, god bless him).

It persists to this day and it drives me nuts. Give me a quick, demonstrative call, please. Let the folks in the cheap seats know whats going on.

2006-08-23 20:05:43
67.   Bluebleeder87
Just as an aside, my job working with special ed kids is easier than umpiring.

i see & respect you're point, but i really wish there was sometipe of psycho/test on umps, i swear they sometimes miss the clearst calls! (i'm probaly biased if you're watching from affar)

2006-08-23 20:12:02
68.   KG16
Why do players and coaches argue calls? Has anyone ever actually gotten a call overturned?
2006-08-23 20:12:24
69.   dkminnick
Should we talk about the umps a little more?
2006-08-23 20:13:24
70.   Gen3Blue
63 and I daresay it is easier than working with umpires would be.
2006-08-23 20:13:58
71.   Bluebleeder87
69

nah, it will just get us more upset, there's still plenty of baseball to play.

2006-08-23 20:14:55
72.   Gen3Blue
I for one won't miss Lugo.
2006-08-23 20:15:14
73.   Brad Bogner
I just want to thank MLB.TV for ensuring I get that loser from that Fox Sports game show on every game this series. It's very fun to see him get excited and scream like a nine year old everytime San Diego gets an out.
2006-08-23 20:16:02
74.   KG16
72 - me either, in this game or at the end of the season
2006-08-23 20:17:27
75.   Bob Timmermann
The KC-Cleveland game has made Gameday cry.
2006-08-23 20:17:31
76.   Brad Bogner
Cameron can yell and scream at an umpire last night after he was clearly out and stay in the game, but when Lugo is mistaken and throws his helmet he gets tossed?

I'm really worried about that pendulum swinging back against the Dodgers.

2006-08-23 20:18:58
77.   Bob Timmermann
I'd be worried about any pendulum not swinging back.

Then it wouldn't be a pendulum. It would just be a big weight with a lot of potential energy then.

2006-08-23 20:19:01
78.   KG16
it's not looking so much a pendulum as a wrecking ball...
2006-08-23 20:26:14
79.   Gen3Blue
Well, in a slump, we don't look like that.
Furcal and Garc seem to have run into a wrecking ball these last few games. Maybe one of them will kick back at this assault.
2006-08-23 20:27:58
80.   Bob Timmermann
KC 13, Cleveland 12 - 2 outs in the 9th with a runner on 2nd for Cleveland.
2006-08-23 20:31:15
81.   Bob Timmermann
The Odalising is complete.

Shin Soo-Choo triples in the tying run!

13-13 Cleveland vs. KC

2006-08-23 20:31:57
82.   Eric L
68 I got a call overturned in a youth league game. When I was coaching the 15-18 year olds, I had 9 kids show up to one of the games.

One of the older guys hit a ball into the gap and tried to stretch it into a triple. He got thrown out at third. Upon being called out, he pops up and says "aww, shoot" (expletive modified).

Umpire tosses him because he thought he was cussing at him. With only having 9 players, the kid getting thrown out of the game would have caused us to forfeit.

I approached blue and asked him very nicely if he would reconsider because the player wasn't cussing at him and that it would suck for us to forfeit the game because of something so silly. He decided not to toss the kid and gave him a talking to instead.

2006-08-23 20:37:00
83.   dianagramr
Mark Teahen looks like a different player these days ....
2006-08-23 20:40:47
84.   Brad Bogner
Was that same pitch for a ball, not strike three against Betemit?
2006-08-23 20:42:08
85.   Andrew Shimmin
Penny should throw one at Guccione.
2006-08-23 20:42:17
86.   Gen3Blue
I see Penny has his rel. common 100 pitches in 5 innings. His early struggles are familiar, but this inability to put peole away as they hit long strings of foul balls is disturbing.
2006-08-23 20:45:10
87.   Andrew Shimmin
This is ridiculous. Send him off or don't, but let's get the game going again.
2006-08-23 20:47:13
88.   Andrew Shimmin
If the next batter doesn't get hit, I'm going to be very disappointed with Elmer.
2006-08-23 20:47:46
89.   Daniel Zappala
Mother nature can be amazing. We are now getting 40-50 mph winds, heavy rain, and lightning.
2006-08-23 20:47:53
90.   Disabled List
Even Vasgersian is getting on the umps' case.
2006-08-23 20:47:53
91.   Andrew Shimmin
What's the record for most ejections in a game without a brawl?
2006-08-23 20:48:02
92.   capdodger
What is wrong with these umps?
2006-08-23 20:48:35
93.   King of the Hobos
In better news, Houlton had a nice start:
7 IP, 2 H, 1 ER, 0 BB, 8 K, 1 HR, 88 pitches
2006-08-23 20:49:25
94.   JT Dutch
... Sometimes, the umpires like to be the stars of the show. It happens every so often.
2006-08-23 20:51:20
95.   Marty
A disgraceful game for the umps. When Grittle went out the first time, after he went back the homeplate ump made a safe sign. That told me it was not an official trip to the mound. Now he reverses himself.
2006-08-23 20:51:44
96.   Eric L
What I want to know is why the umpire followed Penny off the field. That's supposedly a big no-no.

Did they say anything about the game being protested?

2006-08-23 20:52:13
97.   Gen3Blue
I don't think it has been directed at the Dodgers in particular, but I won't deny that the umpiring has been apalling tonight to a degree that surprises me at any level of professional baseball.
But do we have a player or two who can rise to this occasion and make a statement? I have my doubts.
2006-08-23 20:54:05
98.   dzzrtRatt
This too shall pass. San Diego is a haunted house for the Dodgers. The good news, it's a haunted house for the Padres, too.
2006-08-23 20:54:56
99.   Tommy Naccarato
Would someone please explain to me what happened. I was on the phone and the next thing I know Grits and Penny are both getting the boot.
2006-08-23 20:56:27
100.   capdodger
What exactly constitutes a mound visit?
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2006-08-23 20:57:05
101.   skybluestoday
Get this horrible game over with. It's already a nightmare with no chance for us to pick up a victory. I knew that from the second the umps squared off with LittlePenny. Or maybe even before.

Rest easy, boys -- you tried. On to better things.

2006-08-23 20:57:43
102.   Xeifrank
99. Grits made two visits to the mound in the same inning, but the first visit was to check on a possible injury to Penny. The ump made some kind of safe signal, like it wasn't an official visit, but later when Botchy called him on it (on the 2nd visit) the ump said Grits had to take Penny out of the game. Grits argued and got booted, then Penny went nuts and got booted too.
vr, Xei
2006-08-23 20:57:52
103.   Bob Timmermann
Judge for yourself:
Rule 8.06
A professional league shall adopt the following rule pertaining to the visit of the manager or coach to the pitcher:
(a) This rule limits the number of trips a manager or coach may make to any one pitcher in any one inning;
(b) A second trip to the same pitcher in the same inning will cause this pitcher's automatic removal;
(c) The manager or coach is prohibited from making a second visit to the mound while the same batter is at bat, but
(d) if a pinch-hitter is substituted for this batter, the manager or coach may make a second visit to the mound, but must remove the pitcher.
A manager or coach is considered to have concluded his visit to the mound when he leaves the 18-foot circle surrounding the pitcher's rubber.
Rule 8.06 Comment: If the manager or coach goes to the catcher or infielder and that player then goes to the mound or the pitcher comes to him at his position before there is an intervening play (a pitch or other play) that will be the same as the manager or coach going to the mound.
Any attempt to evade or circumvent this rule by the manager or coach going to the catcher or an infielder and then that player going to the mound to confer with the pitcher shall constitute a trip to the mound.
If the coach goes to the mound and removes a pitcher and then the manager goes to the mound to talk with the new pitcher, that will constitute one trip to that new pitcher that inning.
In a case where a manager has made his first trip to the mound and then returns the second time to the mound in the same inning with the same pitcher in the game and the same batter at bat, after being warned by the umpire that he cannot return to the mound, the manager shall be removed from the game and the pitcher required to pitch to the batter until he is retired or gets on base. After the batter is retired, or becomes a base runner, then this pitcher must be removed from the game. The manager should be notified that his pitcher will be removed from the game after he pitches to one hitter, so he can have a substitute pitcher warmed up.
The substitute pitcher will be allowed eight preparatory pitches or more if in the umpire's judgment circumstances justify.
2006-08-23 20:58:21
104.   the OZ
If you turn to page 6 of the CLE-KC box score, you'll see that pitchers in this game have faced 105 total batters so far.
2006-08-23 20:58:54
105.   Franklin Stubbs
While not directly related...don't you think it wasn't smart for Penny to jaw at the home plate umpire after each of the first two innings. See what good that did.
2006-08-23 20:59:11
106.   underdog
It actually started earlier in the game when Lugo was ejected after he tossed his helmet to the ground in disgust after being called out at that close play at first. He was very quickly tossed and seemed shocked - he and Duncan pleaded that he was just pissed he was out and wasn't showing up the umps.

Then it escalated from there, with the home plate ump's very questionable strike zone, the aforementioned Grady Little double visit to the mound, and then the ump who followed Penny around when Penny was finally ejected and was being pushed off the field by his 'mates. Basically umps being a little fascist and quick-triggered, and erratic, and the Dodgers being frustrated at this series in general.

2006-08-23 20:59:31
107.   underdog
Now can someone explain why the Dodgers keep going to Dessens when they could occasionally bring in Sele?
2006-08-23 20:59:47
108.   Tommy Naccarato
Thanks Xei.

After seeing some the difference of in and out of the zone last night, and then of course today, it's obvious this crew hates Blue.

2006-08-23 21:00:06
109.   Xeifrank
what bothered me about the Penny ejection was that while Penny was arguing and being led off the field ALL the umpires followed him to continue the arguement. The umps should've just walked away, but then again people paid good money to see the umpires right!? :)
vr, Xei
2006-08-23 21:00:39
110.   Scanman33
A few weeks ago, I think Jon wrote something about umpires. Like I said back then, they have zero accountability. Two glaring examples will be tonight's game. Guccione throws Lugo out for no good reason. When Lugo gets (justifiably) p.o.'ed, another umpire comes running in and puts his hands on Lugo while he's arguing. If a player does that, it's an easy 5-10 game suspension.

Reed then totally kicks the decision and when Grittle and Penny get (justifiably) p.o.'ed, Reed ejects both and then decides to follow Penny off the field. Purely unprofessional.

These calls have a direct effect on the integrity of the game. Fans need to know severe screw ups like these are not tolerated and what they are watching is kosher. Nothing will happen to any of the above mentioned umpires, though, and Selig will wonder why baseball has credibility issues.

2006-08-23 21:01:22
111.   Frip
I've never seen such a no-nonsense look as Grady's when he's pissed. (Come to think of it, it's about the same as when he's pleased.)
2006-08-23 21:01:28
112.   underdog
Does anyone also think Little was basically trying to get ejected to be a bit of a martyr and to fire up the troops a bit after a mostly lax series? I sort of got that sense.
2006-08-23 21:02:17
113.   Bob Timmermann
112
Suicide by umpire?
2006-08-23 21:03:12
114.   Eric L
100 A trip is pretty simple to determine. If the umpire/coach goes and talks to the pitcher without the umpire calling him out, a trip is charged. A trip can also be charged if the umpire talks to the catcher and then the catcher visits the mound.

Maybe the crew chief was thinking of this rule:

"In a case where a manager has made his first trip to the mound and then returns the second time to the mound in the same inning with the same pitcher in the game and the same batter at bat, after being warned by the umpire that he cannot return to the mound, the manager shall be removed from the game and the pitcher required to pitch to the batter until he is retired or gets on base. "

2006-08-23 21:03:24
115.   Gen3Blue
Penny's a loose cannon, and if he threw the ball over the plate in the first inning, this game would be very different. It is difficult to have your "best" pitcher implode in August.
I hope Roberts doesn't bat, because I feel that would be the end.
2006-08-23 21:03:45
116.   underdog
I agree Xei, and Scanman, do you think the Dodgers will file a complaint? Or can they even? I would if I were them.

I remember a game years ago where a team played under protest...but I don't know if these sort of circumstances call for it.

2006-08-23 21:04:44
118.   Tommy Naccarato
102
Quite a possibility, but only if it was Nuke LaLoche on the mound with Kevin Costner catching...

Just joking.

2006-08-23 21:05:38
119.   Franklin Stubbs
Has a team EVER filed a protest and had that protest go anywhere other than the "circular file"????
2006-08-23 21:06:46
120.   underdog
Btw, the amusing thing is after the Lugo play at 1st, where he was ejected and the Dodgers argued for awhile, I left to go to the store. When I came back, Little was out there arguing, with the announcers saying how long this was taking, "let's get on with it." For a second I really thought either Little was out there arguing for 40 mins or my MLBTV was stuck. Or it was like Groundhog Day.
2006-08-23 21:06:51
121.   Benaiah
Gameday marked strike one to Dave Roberts as waaaaaaaaaaay outside. Like two feet outside. Weird.
2006-08-23 21:07:02
122.   Tommy Naccarato
Screw all of this protesting stuff! GO OUT AND WIN THE GAME!
2006-08-23 21:07:15
123.   capdodger
114 Except that there were two batters between the "first" and "second" visits, so that clause doesn't apply.

I think what we have here is a failure to communicate.

2006-08-23 21:07:30
124.   Eric L
110 The umpires screwed up by initially kicking Lugo out. They screwed up with the "is this a trip, is it not a trip?" situation. Following Penny to the dugout was a bad move.

The umpire getting in between Lugo and the first base umpire wasn't a bad move.

2006-08-23 21:07:50
125.   dkminnick
119 - The only protest I can recall being won was the George Brett pine tar game. Didn't they replay part of that game at the end of the season? Bob?
2006-08-23 21:08:05
126.   Bob Timmermann
The KC Royals succeeded on their protest of the George Brett pine tar game.

A few others have succeeded also.

If the Dodgers protested, for the protest to have a chance of being upheld they would have to:
1) lose
2) prove that Penny's removal from the game was an incorrect interpretation of the rules
3) prove that the incorrect interpretation of the rules materially affected the outcome of the game.

Good luck with that.

2006-08-23 21:08:29
127.   underdog
113 It's probably happened! Let me check the annals of baseball yore... "suicide by midget shortstop.." "suicide during national anthem.." Nope, not here. Hm.
2006-08-23 21:08:29
128.   A Slo
112
I actually thought Little was pretty reserved and calm considering 1)they seemed to clearly give him an injury trip for his first visit and 2)the decision only seemed to be made after Bochy protested.
2006-08-23 21:08:49
129.   capdodger
119 Sure. The "pine tar" decision.
2006-08-23 21:09:18
130.   Andrew Shimmin
117- Please see rule number one at the bottom right.
2006-08-23 21:09:24
131.   Gen3Blue
119 For practical purposes--no.
2006-08-23 21:11:09
132.   Scanman33
124- Yes, getting between them is fine. In fact, Duncan had already done that. But when you come across the field and physically place your hands on a player, that's wrong. Can a player come across the field and seperate an umpire from a player he is arguing with?
2006-08-23 21:11:27
133.   Bob Timmermann
Retrosheet has identified 13 protested games that were upheld and then resumed later.

Interestingly, the Dodgers played in three of them in 1947, two of them eight days apart.

2006-08-23 21:11:43
134.   Gen3Blue
Seeing players like Furc and Nomar go down like that, I'm for bed. And I hope our prospects have more bottom. But I suspect when we separate from the Pads, they'll go down, and we'll go up.
2006-08-23 21:12:26
135.   capdodger
126
1. Well on their way to this outcome.
2. Did the ump tell Grittle that the first visit wasn't really a visit? If he did, and there's tape, they might have something.
3. They'll need to score for this to happen, but if they score two or three runs it becomes, at the very least, a case of who's-to-sayism?
2006-08-23 21:12:29
136.   Franklin Stubbs
Bob -- thanks for the info. Like you indicated, the material effect is the most important part...Clearly discounting Brett's homerun had amaterial effect on the game. (A pine tar material effect? --sorry).
2006-08-23 21:13:38
137.   Bob Timmermann
From Retrosheet:

July 20, 1947, St. Louis at Brooklyn: In the top of the ninth with the Cards ahead 2-0, Ron Northey hits a high fly deep to the wall in right center. The Dodgers CF Pete Reiser leaps but can't catch it, and after a couple of seconds the ball drops back on the field where RF Dixie Walker fields it, relays it to 2B Eddie Stanky, whose throw nails Northey at home. The first base umpire (there was a three man crew in those days) immediately ruled the ball in play, but the other base umpire signaled to Northey that it was a homer, so Northey slowed up. He was ruled out at the plate, and the Cards protested the game saying Northey had been deceived by the umpire and would have scored if he had not slowed down.

In the bottom of the ninth, the Dodgers scored three runs to win the game before the protest by a 3-2 score. NL President Ford Frick, who later became Commissioner, upheld the protest and awarded Northey a home run. However, he did not order the game resumed in the top of the ninth with the Cards ahead 3-0, which would have been the normal procedure called for by the rules. He allowed the Dodgers' runs to stand and ruled the game a 3-3 tie. (We can only speculate on what he would have decided if the Dodgers had hit a homer in the bottom of the ninth and scored four runs.) All the records counted except for the pitchers' win and loss. The game was replayed in its entirety as part of a doubleheader on August 18 that the Dodgers won.

2006-08-23 21:14:26
138.   Bob Timmermann
Also from Retrosheet:
8/17/1947

We are not sure if the Dodgers actually protested the game, but the game ended up being treated as if it were a resumed protested game. We are continuing to research it.

The game was the second game of a Dodgers at Phillies doubleheader. At the time Pennsylvania had a curfew on Sunday games saying they had to end no later than 6:59 PM. The Phillies had won the opener 4-0, and the second game was tied 4-4 after six innings as the curfew neared. The Dodgers scored a run in the top of the seventh, which caused the Phillies to adopt delaying tactics hoping the inning would not be completed and the game would revert back to a six inning tie. At that point, the game turned into a travesty.

The Phillies changed pitchers to eat up some time. The Dodgers then countered by having the runners on first and second trot toward the next bases hoping the Phillies would put them out, but the Phils permitted a double steal. Dodger batters swung at pitches well out of the strike zone. One of them was during an intentional walk issued after the double steal, but the home plate umpire did not allow that Dodger tactic. Finally the inning ended when the Dodger on third tried to "steal" home by trotting towards the plate and the Phillies decided they could not allow the run to score.

In the bottom of the seventh, the Phil's first hitter, Harry Walker, could not find his bat! That delayed things enough so that the count on him was 2-1 when the curfew went into effect at 6:59. At that point, the game was considered to be a six inning 4-4 tie.

The next day Ford Frick, National League President and later Commissioner, ruled that the game must be resumed (on September 25 when the Dodgers were next in Philadelphia) with Walker at bat with a 2-1 count and none out in the bottom of the seventh. He based his ruling on the umpire's report and possibly on the Dodgers protest if they made one. His official statement said "it was a farcical exhibition which was a disgrace to baseball and a complete travesty of all the rules of sportsmanship."

The Dodgers ended up winning the game 7-5 when it was completed on September 25 before the regularly scheduled game.

2006-08-23 21:14:36
139.   capdodger
That was a balk. But whatever.
2006-08-23 21:16:13
140.   Franklin Stubbs
That was totally a balk. But whatever.
2006-08-23 21:16:58
141.   Bob Timmermann
The last protest upheld was in 1986.

This is from UPI:

Charles Feeney, the National League president, today upheld the Pittsburgh Pirates' protest that the rain-abbreviated game they lost, 4-1, to the St. Louis Cardinals Monday night was improperly called by the umpires.

Feeney ordered that the game be resumed Wednedsay night, before the clubs' regularly scheduled game, from the point it was called - with one out in the top of the sixth inning.

The umpire in chief, John Kibler, called the game after rain delays of 17 and 22 minutes. Between the delays, play resumed long enough for two pitches to be thrown.

Feeney said he agreed with the Pirates' contention that Kibler called the game prematurely. National League regulations require that umpires wait at least 75 minutes during an initial weather interruption and 45 minutes during a second one before calling a game.

Feeney said Kibler had concurred with the facts as presented by the Pirates.

(The Cardinals ended up winning 4-2)

2006-08-23 21:18:36
142.   Greg Brock
I've never been so happy to miss three games in my life. San Diego....Grrr.

At least we don't have to go to Montreal anymore. Another black hole for Dodgerdom.

2006-08-23 21:20:36
144.   Greg Brock
143 He's upset.
2006-08-23 21:20:59
145.   Bob Timmermann
Here's another Retrosheet account of a protested game. This one is from 1921.

Have you ever wondered if the protest of a game has ever been allowed? Ron Fisher found one for the 1921 Pirates. On May 28, CIN at PIT in the bottom of the 8th Ron notes: "On the play at the plate, Luque made the tag, but got so mad at the safe call he threw the ball into the Reds dugout! Someone threw it out to Wingo and the rundown on Barnhart started! The Pirates complained, but the umps ruled in favor of the Reds!" The game was replayed from this point after the league President ruled that the assistance from the dugout was a little too much. The New York Times story on the game played the next day by the same two teams notes another interesting fate of a ball: "The ninth inning was featured by a freak home run when Barnhart's hit into right field went under a roll of canvass. The ball was recovered by a small boy, who fled with it, and the hit went for a homer". Apparently there was no protest about this!

2006-08-23 21:21:41
146.   capdodger
Just a little bit.
2006-08-23 21:22:02
147.   capdodger
The comeback begins!!!
2006-08-23 21:22:48
148.   joekings
I've never been one to blame the umpires but this is pretty bad. I don't think they are anti LA, just incompetent.
2006-08-23 21:24:19
149.   Jon Weisman
143 - Please don't ever do a comment like that again.

I'm working on having 143 and 117 deleted.

2006-08-23 21:24:57
150.   Franklin Stubbs
Was Vin saying that Little's crime was going to the mound after talking to the ump? that he visited the mound twice on the same visit. That is total BS.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2006-08-23 21:25:03
151.   Andrew Shimmin
Well, Vin just explained they forced the removal of Penny. It wasn't the injury visit, it was when Grittle came off the mound during the second visit to ask what the ump had yelled at him. When he went back, it counted as a second visit. I'm not sure Grits made it 18 feet from the mound, but there you go.
2006-08-23 21:26:19
152.   Bob Timmermann
151
The rule refers to the mound being 18 feet in diameter.
2006-08-23 21:26:34
153.   Franklin Stubbs
Jon,

Re: 117 --i used professionally accepted bleeping out letters. Not enough?

2006-08-23 21:28:37
154.   Andrew Shimmin
152- Ah geometry, the last refuge of a scoundrel. He may well have gone nine feet. And nobody ever thought to make an allowance for being baited away from the mound by the ump.
2006-08-23 21:28:49
155.   Jon Weisman
153 - No, not enough. Anyone above the age of 10 can figure out what those letters stand for. It's not the letters, it's the word. I don't want cursing (or quotations of cursing) here.
2006-08-23 21:29:16
156.   Franklin Stubbs
The content of 117 was totallyvalid to leave up there Jon. The point being that Grady got thrown out likely for wanting to be thrown out or for saying the magic foul words (which I won't mention here).
2006-08-23 21:30:34
157.   Franklin Stubbs
155 they need to learn what not to say to the umps somehow...

:-)

2006-08-23 21:31:10
158.   Scanman33
151-If that was the determination, that's pure chicken....feathers. If Reed had something to say, he should have gone to the mound to say it.
2006-08-23 21:31:18
159.   underdog
Um, what was that?

Okay, I'm officially going to cease watching this game now. Before I get insomnia from the memories of it.

2006-08-23 21:31:46
160.   capdodger
151 The ump started that exchange though. That's even more frustrating than the injury visit explanation.
2006-08-23 21:33:20
161.   Franklin Stubbs
Anyone have a good explanation for this game and the umps? Clearly they aren't out to get LA but it seems to me that they were anti-Penny or maybe even anti-Little. I don't really get how they'd be anti Llittle but anti-Penny is easy to understand after his questioning of the strike zone. (Another no no kids.) But the Lugo incident seemed to happen because the ump remembered some tape of Milton Bradley.
2006-08-23 21:33:22
162.   underdog
I thought 117 was just quoting Grady Little and Brad Penny? ;-)

Oh well, if you want cursing you can go to the Bronx Banter comments I guess. Or an open miked Dodger-Padres game.

I'm going to watch some cartoons now or something.

2006-08-23 21:33:24
163.   capdodger
153 Read the first commandment.
2006-08-23 21:34:42
164.   Bob Timmermann
163

They're not commandments. They're just suggestions. Kind of like what the Unitarians follow.

2006-08-23 21:35:07
165.   Travis
It's not the same situation, but the Mets were forced to take El Duque out in the second inning of a game in Toronto last year because Willie Randolph tried to prevent a brawl.

http://tinyurl.com/fq9hg

2006-08-23 21:35:22
167.   Andrew Shimmin
On the bright side, that's maybe the best rundown the Dodgers have executed this year.
2006-08-23 21:35:24
168.   Bob Timmermann
Yea! A correctly done rundown!
2006-08-23 21:35:38
169.   Travis
165 *this year.
2006-08-23 21:36:25
170.   capdodger
164 But people aren't sent off for ignoring suggestions.
2006-08-23 21:37:56
171.   Marty
If you want cursing, go to a Staten Island little league game.
2006-08-23 21:38:33
172.   Bob Timmermann
From a Random Dodger Game Callback I wrote last year for 9/7/67 Dodgers vs. Cubs

Similar thing, just in reverse

In the eighth inning, the game got contentious. Cubs manager Leo Durocher brought in Pete Mikkelsen to relieve. Mikkelsen hit Lou Johnson with a pitch and then made an error on a sacrifice attempt by Jim Lefebvre to put runners on first and second with no outs and Roseboro due up.

Cubs pitching coach Joe Becker (who had been fired as a coach by the Dodgers along with Durocher after the 1964 season) came out to talk to Mikkelsen and give rookie lefthander Jim Ellis time to warm up. Becker left the mound and headed back to the bench. But Durocher told Becker that Ellis was warmed up and sent Becker back to pull Mikkelsen and Ellis came in.

Dodgers manager Walter Alston then came out of the dugout to tell home plate umpire Tony Venzon that Mikkelsen couldn't come out of the game because Becker had already made a trip to the mound and left and he had to stay in. (The rule was new in 1967.) The umpires realized their error and ordered Mikkelsen back into the game. And Mikkelsen was able to get Roseboro to hit a grounder to second that Glenn Beckert ran to first base on his own as Johnson and Lefebvre moved up.

Now Durocher decided that he wanted Chuck Hartenstein to relieve. But Venzon declared that Ellis had to come in to pitch since he was already brought in. Becker and Durocher argued with Venzon about this and Becker got ejected. And Ellis had to pitch to Ron Fairly, whom he walked. Finally, Hartenstein was allowed to come in. Third baseman Bob Bailey lifted a fly ball to Cubs right fielder to Bob Raudman who threw out Johnson at the plate to end the inning.

2006-08-23 21:39:56
173.   Scanman33
160-That's my issue. Reed interfered with the conference on the mound. If Little ignores Reed, he gets tossed for showing him up by not turning around and acknowledging him.
2006-08-23 21:41:17
174.   capdodger
172 But Venzon declared that Ellis had to come in to pitch since he was already brought in.

Except of course, he hadn't been. That's an odd interpretation of being "in the game".

2006-08-23 21:41:40
175.   D4P
I'll tell you one thing: Reed's not gonna be getting any discount on his oil change at JiffyLube
2006-08-23 21:41:52
176.   Franklin Stubbs
I think the Dodgers treat the Padres like they should be pushovers -- and they should be push overs...

But the Padres treat the Dodgers like beating the better, more successful big brother. It's almost like the Padres play better against the Dodgers. What do I mean almost. They totally do.

2006-08-23 21:43:08
178.   Franklin Stubbs
I hope they make Reed eat a lot of Yoshinoya Beef Bowl.
2006-08-23 21:43:54
179.   Jon Weisman
170 - If they ignore them with extreme prejudice, they are.
2006-08-23 21:44:00
180.   Franklin Stubbs
I love caps.
2006-08-23 21:44:14
181.   Bob Timmermann
174

Venzon later left the game when he started feeling ill.

2006-08-23 21:45:18
182.   Xeifrank
If the Padres sweep the Dodgers and pull even in the West and things tighten up again. The Griddle is going to have to buy more hard-drive space to store all the wild-card and playoff race update posts that Bob will be making. vr, Xei
2006-08-23 21:45:25
183.   underdog
I know I said I was leaving but I just had to say... the Padres' annoying announcer actually just said "Yeahhhhhhh!" when Drew struck out. He's right up there with the umps in my esteem tonight.
2006-08-23 21:46:15
184.   Scanman33
175-Do they have a No Lube List at JL?
2006-08-23 21:47:44
185.   Xeifrank
183. FWIW my two year old frequently says "Yeahhhhh!" when I open up a box of animal crackers. I guess she is really mature for her age. :) vr, Xei
2006-08-23 21:48:25
186.   D4P
184
They do now
2006-08-23 21:48:56
187.   Xeifrank
184. Maybe there is a Lube Nazi, like the Soup Nazi in Seinfeld?? vr, Xei
ps- No Lube for you!!
2006-08-23 21:53:58
188.   Bob Timmermann
No need for any fancy permutations until Friday.

The Dodgers, Padres, and Reds are all off Thursday.

2006-08-23 21:54:11
189.   Jon Weisman
I anticipate that someone in the local media will portray Penny as this year's Milton Bradley, which is a shame on multiple levels.
2006-08-23 21:54:11
190.   gibsonhobbs88
I'm glad they have a day off tomorrow to flush this series out of their minds and hearts. Then they can refocus on the weekend! Hope the Padres go back to their losing ways against the other West teams!! I've had all I can take tonight! Goodnight All!!! Except Bud Selig, I hope a black widow bites you on your artery in your neck!!
2006-08-23 21:55:20
191.   Xeifrank
189. Pill Bashke?
vr, Xei
2006-08-23 21:55:48
192.   D4P
189
Maybe the 85-year old Ethier scout has another "hidden gem" we can steal from another team in exchange for this year's Bradley
2006-08-23 21:56:32
193.   capdodger
179 It just seems that that would raise them to beyond suggestions, and more to the level of say, HOA rules or municipal ordinances.

No Gnomes. No hyperbole. No Knockers bigger than 3 inches. No Swearing. No walking off of the most direct path on the wet sand at night. No talking about the li
NOCARRIER *

2006-08-23 21:57:17
194.   Franklin Stubbs
Penny can't be Milton-ized cause of the racial thing. I think that was a big deal in the negative press on Milton. Penny is just a competitor
2006-08-23 21:59:08
195.   Bob Timmermann
Penny's behavior isn't much different than Don Drysdale's was. Or Paul O'Neill when he played.
2006-08-23 22:01:14
196.   capdodger
There goes the "materially affect" clause. Oh well.
2006-08-23 22:02:52
197.   Franklin Stubbs
Penny leaving the game did "materially affect" the game. Penny would have only walked Cameron...not given up a ding dong.
2006-08-23 22:08:49
198.   capdodger
197 That doesn't matter though. Penny gave up four runs, and the Dodgers only scored two. That's your ballgame.
2006-08-23 22:09:47
199.   Andrew Shimmin
So, clearly the post-game crew doesn't watch the game. They botched the explanation of the Penny/Grits expulsions.
2006-08-23 22:10:56
200.   Andrew Shimmin
Can't Fox afford the fifty bucks a month to get cable in the makeup room?
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2006-08-23 22:12:17
201.   Franklin Stubbs
198 - i was kidding. Hard to protest a game you give up two runs so early in the game.
2006-08-23 22:13:31
202.   s choir
193 No gnomes? I'm leaving.
2006-08-23 22:18:37
203.   Frip
This Fox guy just babbles to fill the air. "In effect the Dodgers blew their cool". What does that mean? They got angry for highly legitimate reasons. Blowing your cool is right up their with "womanizer" I suppose. This guy is like the annoying tweety bird at the end of the bar. He talks about the game with the glee of a 4th grader who just saw something naughty. These jokers would never fly on the east coast.
2006-08-23 22:32:55
204.   capdodger
201
Ah... I guess I need to take the ol' Sarcasm Detector in for a tuneup then, eh?
2006-08-23 23:02:21
205.   bluetahoe
Glad I slept thru this one. Not surprised. Brad Penny is terrible. (And people think Mark Hendrickson is the problem.)

4 innings. LOL..... Nice job, ace. Way to be that stopper we need.

Maybe Trevor Hoffman, Dave Roberts, and Mike Piazza could all clears waivers and Kevin Towers could trade them for fodder before 8/31.

2006-08-23 23:12:41
206.   bluetahoe
Further glance at the boxscore shows iron man JD with a pinch hit K. Can't help but wonder if....

a) looking again
b) one hand pose
c) 2 handed pose

2006-08-24 04:55:03
207.   capdodger
205 BT, you might want to read back up through the thread because the general belief is that a) Penny got hosed on his zone b) Penny was foreced from the game by either Grittle's not knowing the rules or an umpire's misapplication of them.

As you like to say so often, the stats don't tell you everything...

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