Say Grady visits the mound at the BOB then backtracks 5 paces on the dirt runway, then walks back to the mound. One visit or two?

What if Grady just shouts at the pitcher from the infield grass? Does that count as a visit?

I'm anticipating Grady, Martin, and Maddux doing the hokey pokey on the mound at some point during the game.

Man, that was some bad umpiring in the last series.

Nice start to the Padres-Rockies game. Rox first six hitters get hits, 4-1 after one (a DP minimized the damage along with the fact they were all singles I think).

Hopefully Maddux does better then what he does usually against the D-Backs.

Well that was a good start.

Jay Dee yay.

Standing up! thats what we need from Furc.
Good-bye. Ok.

Home run belongs to Vin, telling us 4 of his 12 are against D-Backs. Next pitch--over the wall.

GameDay just made me happy with the Drew HR!

With this line-up, I feel like we are trying to win!

10 I mean GameChannel, actually

Suddenly Varga has given up 9 bases in the first inning... Wow...

Rockies-Padres, at first glance, is shaping up to be an old-style Coors Field tilt--except there's only one extra base hit.

Loney---maybe. nothing against Garc.

Looks like we will need a lot of runs tonight.

12 Whats Gamecnhannel? Si,ESPN?

Late, but this is the first time I noticed it: RIP Maynard Ferguson.

http://tinyurl.com/kj7bz

How does the strike zone look tonight, for those of us without the benefit of TV?

19- Looks okay to me, but it has to be really bad before I notice it.

I got to switch between Dodgers and Raiders game.

When the vibe is down on this D's team, nobody is safe. We really don't have a stopper. I was hoping Bills or Maddux would provide that.
But there is plenty of hope for tonight. Go D's.

Announcer . it's not the location--its just that everything is up!

The Twins have gotten off the deck and scored four in the sixth to go ahead of the White Sox 4-3.

nice wilson.

We could have kept Willy Aybar around for plays like that.

Stauffer is pitching against the 51s today... still in the first inning, loney has doubled, laroche has homered and 4 runs have scored.

And how did the big league team do against him? bleh.

So many 2's on the board to go along with number 22 on second base.

Don't even think we're going to hit the record for combined doubles in a game.

That mark is 23!

The ultimate deuces wild matchup ends in a double.

History's greatest monster, AJ Pierzynski, homers to tie it up for the White Sox against the Twins.

Of course the way its going, I have to have the sound off. I look up from my reading and see poor Kenny waving at a fly ball. I have no idea if he had a chance on it. But he is about our best offensive player outside of Ethier so I forgive him.

32

Willie Mays would have caught it in 1951.

33
Actually I meant 1954.

5-5 in Colorado.

But he is about our best offensive player outside of Ethier so I forgive him.

based on what numbers?

J.D. when it counts.

37

it didnt count in the first inning?

I guess it counted more there. yay jay dee.

YES! How about that, Jon ;)

We should ask the Bronx Banter folks when hits count the most by your enigmatic superstar.

Of course, their enigmatic superstar is a lot better than our enigmatic superstar. But he's more enigmatic.

What is the consensus opinion of arod over there at bronx banter? Is it along the same lines as most yankee fans?

36 Based on nothing concrete, but his average is as good as most. I also think he is about the only one who makes any of our opponents nervous with his speed. Furcal should, but I don't think he does much. Will you allow room for instinct here?

2 home runs by Drew? Wow. Hopefully this will continue.

Anyone paying attention to A's game?

Is it just me or has Ethier lost all patience on this road trip? He swings at the first pitch in almost every at bat I've seen him in, except one - when he hit the triple.

Re: 44

If JD gets hot and his power returns to his career norm, we could actually be in pretty good shape.

WWSH

Is that pastrami burger from Carl's Jr. really a combination of two burger patties and a pile of pastrami, like it looks to be in the final shot of the ad?

Zito has been quite interesting through his first seven innings tonight.

43

even with his base stealing abilities, I dont see how he is our second best offensive player. I mean, the average is nice but its as empty of an average as you are going to get.

45 - Gameday reports a 99 degree temperature over there.

48

That is correct. At my local burger stand, that's called "the Special Burger."

I've tried it twice to make sure that the severe instestinal distress was not happening by chance.

I've not had one since.

52 Good (Deity of choice here). Two perfectly good meats, needlessly merged into a single sandwich.

50 I don't have to have him our second best. Furcal has been good and like you said Drew is coming on. I hope Martin comes too soon; somewhere it was suggested that the long Major's season might be getting to him, but I hope it is just a matter of a few more at bats and slump over.
Got no Carl's back here but that pastrami burger looks intiguing.

Lousy Rangers.

Vargas serves up extreme tatters.

54

Do you have a Hardee's?

Vin seems quite perturbed with Claudio Vargas.

I had Hardee's in Canada.

"Taters leave D-backs' pitcher in tatters."

52 Good research. I wouldn't feed it to either of my cats now.

how about Martin there

I like the low carb burger from Carls Jr. Haven't really had anything else from there.

We only have about three Carl's stores here, and no Hardees. I seem to recall Hardees is mostly SE, although there was one next to a Whataburger right outside the UofA campus in Tucson back in the late 1960s.

I remember 2 years ago when Arizona was so bad that Vin remarked that their club was not a major league quality team and he thought their defense was awful.

54 Lost our Hardee's, but there must be one within 40 miles---do they have the gustatory combo?

Hardee's = Carl's Jr.

Hey Nate, any concern about Morris, lots of strikeouts but also plenty of hits and walks?

Damn, I better turn up the sound, I've been rapping so hard I missed two runs.

When did Russell Martin switch to #55? Wasn't Gio wearing that (Orel's number) earlier this season?

68

Not really. Its rookie ball. Some take more time to adjust then others but the strikeouts do show that he has excellent stuff.

Did I call Martin or what!!

Carrara has worn 54 this year. Martin has worn 55 all season.

What about Jhonny Nunez, he is an old for a GCL guy (20 years old) but he has had an impressive season.

54 It is only out of my tremendous respect for Jon that I'm able to resist cracking a joke here. Normally there is no way I could pass up a line like that.

74

Like you said, he is old for the GCL which automatically makes me hesitant about him. He's going to have to prove it next year in Columbus before I get too excited.

how about Bridger Hunt? Right out of college and hitting over .300 in Columbus is impressive IMO.

75 Thanks for your restraint.

wow, 10 pitch inning, including a hit and a walk

I wish the Raiders could play the Lions every week.

Re: 67

With fried chicken instead of Carls' best burger IMO--the western bacon cheeseburger.

Around here, instead of the weird pastrami thing, they instead have a philly cheesesteak burger. Basically the same idea. I've had it, and it really wasn't all the great, although it didn't cause any "intestinal distress." The fried chicken can be a pretty good value, though. And Hardee's also has pretty good biscuits.

I do miss the western bacon, though. I certainly don't value it as much as the In-N-Out double-double, but I usually try to get one when I'm back in LA.

WWSH

Anyone hear that bit on the radio re: QuesTec? (the strike zone cameras, which they have in Arizona) An interesting possible explanation for Maddux's struggles at that ballpark.

81
Don't they have QuesTec at Dodger Stadium?

Cardinals hold on to first in the Central with a 2-0 win over the Cubs.

79 or the 49'ers. Art Shell is a good coach.

9-5 Rockies now.

67,80,etc. You guys are sending me towards the refrigerator. The sandwiches I concoct, coupled with it being 11:10 pm here, almost garauntee gastric distress at some point.

Despite Maddux not being sharp tonight, he still has under 65 pitches. This would not be true of several of our other starters.

Wow, not much range on the right side of the infield, although it might have made no difference on that hit.

Well, if there wasn't yet any tension between the Drew brothers, there is now!

It's like watching the Angels play!

Dear D'backs,

Thank you for running your way out of this inning.

Your buddy,
Greg Maddux

Gameday is making it look like Arizona is not making good base-running decisions...

Oh oh.

It's a matchup between baseball's savviest pitcher and baseball's savviest hitter!

Or at least that's the way Counsell is portrayed.

Twins take a 5-4 lead in the ninth at Chicago on an RBI single by Jason Bartlett.

93
Or at least that's the way Maddux is portrayed.

Not to be confused with baseball's smartest player.

The Angels are continuing to infuriate the people at Bronx Banter.

Grittle denies Maddux a chance at a Quality Start™

Lofton's average just became a little less empty.

99

But it doesn't do any good. Does anyone know what Nomar's average is when he puts the first pitch of an AB into play?

98 It may be a good thing. I didn't see a ball reach the catcher for quite a stretch.

I don't think anyone can deny Kenny's having a good year on offense.

Coming into the game, Garciaparra was 29 for 82 when hitting the first pitch with four home runs. 909 OPS.

100- .354/.372/.537

Vasgersian on the Padre broadcast just brought up the fact that the Dodgers get the Pirates for an extra series while the Padres get the Braves. "Who would you rather face?", he asked (well, it depends, is Baez on the team or not?)

Well, who would you rather face, the Angels or the Mariners? The Twins (who the Dodgers faced) or the Rangers (who the Pads got) in interleague?

103

Thanks. Once again, numbers trump impressions; it has seemed awfully frustrating to see how "often" Nomar has messed up a good scoring chance by making an out on the first pitch.

104 continued- He's been HBP three times on a first pitch.

103, 104

How/where did you get that answer so quickly?

Bob must be near his kitchen.

The Padres were 2-7 against the Braves.

Time to DFA Gio.

sports.yahoo.com/mlb

Click on players.

108- I used ESPN. It actually took me longer than it needed to because I always forgot to just use the links Jon has provided in the sidebar. Bob probably knew it off the top of his head.

The Twins won 5-4. The final out was recorded when a White Sox fan leaned out into the field to knock a foul ball out of Justin Morneau's glove.

It was pretty blatant.

Gio's not as good as he didn't used to be

10-5 Rockies now.

so Maddux is not allowed more than 80 pitches?

A lot of pitches up in the zone tonight.

117 Not when he makes 50 in 3 innings.

112, 113

Cool; thanks.

Tomko has to get Drew out for Maddux to still have a chance for the win.

13-5 Rocks.

Bob,good to see a fan get called, if thats the way it happened. There have been too many times it hasn't been, thus encouraging interference.

Aren't we facing the much lauded Arizona kiddie corps in this game? Jackson, Drew, and Quentin? There's got to be some others waiting in the wings, correct? Either way AZ looks pretty good and can only get better in the future. Should be fun.

120

Mission accomplished. That was the first strikeout of the game by a Dodger pitcher.

Re: 120

I hope Tomko's willing to stay in the pen next season. He seems to be thriving there. I think the following rotation could work for 2007:

Lowe
Penny
Bills
Kuo (?)
Maddux (?)

Hopefully Maddux could be signed to a reasonable one year deal. And Kuo's arm will hopefully hold up.

WWSH

125 - I think Maddux will see more work than Kuo, given that Kuo hasn't pitched nearly as many innings.

Jackson, Drew, and Quentin? There's got to be some others waiting in the wings, correct?

Chris Young is up, but he isnt in the lineup tonight. Then they have two outfielders, carlos gonzales and justin upton then a catcher Miguel Montero.

They also have Callaspo (?) the prospect from Angels, but he probably won't get a chance to play with Orlando Hudson there.

119 - when those are his first 3 innings, that's one thing. But he only needed 35 pitches for his last 3.

122
The guy leaned out over the railing and almost stuck his hand in Morneau's glove. If the umpire hadn't called it, I think that Ron Gardenhire would have had the umpire killed.

although the 10 hits and 2 walks aren't very good either, but is Gio gonna be any better?

OK, Monday's being modest, but Steiner just pointed out that he actually hit Carlton well during his career. Anyone have the stats defining "well"?

It still was not a good game for the Mad Dog. Maddux's game score: 33. If he struck out the side in the 6th and was pulled after that, he'd be getting a game score of 41.

133
Seeing as how he didn't strike anyone out in 5 innings, I wouldn't have predicted him striking out "the side" in the 6th

125

I think he will, mostly because he's been thriving out of the pen, whereas he kinda sucked as a starter.

Which, I don't understand. From what I've seen of Tomko (although that is little, as I mostly just listen to the games on radio), his stuff seems to be excellent, and he seems to know what he's doing out there on the mound. Of course, the results have never had him as anything better than a mediocre #5. I wonder why?

According to Retrosheet, Monday was 15 for 40 with 2 HRs against Carlton.

I would say Rick has a case.

134 - I wasn't predicting, I was just pointing out that according to the metric, he still wouldn't have had that good a start. Fortunately, Drew and Martin have belted a few.

I would say Rick has a case

of the Mondays...?

Monday was 30 for 86 with 11 home runs against Tom Seaver.

136

Thanks again. Yeah, that's pretty good. Steiner was talking (in general terms) about how well Monday had done against Carlton, and Monday was not only doing the "aw shucks" routine, but talking about how he hated every minute of it.

Makes you wonder which Tim Stauffer-like pitcher owned Monday...

Jim Merritt held Monday to a 2 for 21 in his career, although he got Monday at the start of his career.

Monday was 4 for 30 against Gene Garber.

Olmedo with the bases empty and 2 outs

Monday was 1 for 18 against Tom Bradley, whose effectiveness diminished after beating Sam Yorty in the LA mayoral race in 1973.

Mark Grace is enamored with Broxton's girth.

143

Beat me both to the stat, and to the inevitable political allusion arising therefrom.

Dusty Baker would be throwing his hat in disgust. Saenz is clogging up the basepaths now

130 I'm not sure which would be better.
At least we ar5e trying here with Tomato.
tonight, I don't get the feeling one run is going to be enough. I hope I'm wrong.

although personally I'd pinch run with Lugo

Nate- Have any of the D'backs pitching prospects started looking like they might be good?

144 Reading Mark Grace's name and "girth" in the same sentence reminds me of his "slumpbuster" theory.

147 - I trust Broxton and Saito

The basepaths are now 2/3 clogged

Repko's a good choice too

149

Micah Owings was giving me a scare when he was mowing down AA batters in the southern league. then he went to AAA tucson in the PCL and he has fallen apart.

to add, his era is respectable and his homerun rate is good but his lack of Ks shows me that he wont be a kevin brown type sinker baller.

153
Repko is full of double-switching goodness.

For all of his, er, unfortunate results as an erstwhile Dodger relief pitcher, Steiner just announced that Danys Baez has undergone an emergency appendectomy, and I wish him a speedy recovery (ditto to Chan Ho).

All that speed, nowhere to go...

157

It must not have been an emergency since it happened yesterday.

what was that swing for?

Nomar needs to not swing in that spot.

Would it have killed Nomah to lay off that pitch?

I agree on the 2-0 pitch, the 3-1 pitch was a strike from my viewpoint and he just got under it.

139

Wow. Looks like Monday pounded Seaver harder than any pitcher not named Dick Ruthven (20 for 49, 7 HR); I'm not counting Garry Roggenburk, against whom Monday went 4 for 5.

Would it have killed Nomah to lay off that pitch?

We'll never know

Nomar is what he is, doesn't walk, doesn't strike out.

Monday beat up on Steve Renko too.

But so did a lot of guys.

This game has me uptight enough so I had to pace up and dowm my driveway twice before I realized it is raining pretty hard here.
Darn, that looked like a Kenny play.

163 It was a straight strike, no doubt, but if you're about to have a Defcon Carter situation on the mound, man, just let it go....

We're way behind Bronx Banter.

But the Angels-Yankees game will likely take four hours at its pace.

Wow, Eric Byrnes and I had the same major at UCLA!

What are the odds?

Not that long actually as UCLA has boatloads of history majors.

Through five innings, the Yankees and Angels have combined to have 26 batters reach base.

It's 4-2 Angels.

It's going to be a long night out in Anaheim.

One last batter-pitcher comment, and I promise to shut up (new toy, gotta play with it). Mays vs. Koufax:
25 for 95, 7 doubles, 1 triple, 4 HR, 23 BB, 20 K, 263/407/484.

171

I think this is history in the making. I don't know when anyone has fouled so many off Bull.

And then got a hit.

Okay, Byrnes might define "scrappy" more than Repko.

For comparison, the top 10 majors at UCLA among undergrads in Fall 2004

1 Undeclared 3,306
2 Economics (incl related majors) 2,032
3 Psychology (incl pre-Psychology)2,002
4 Political Science (incl pre-Political Science) 1,804
5 Biology (incl pre-Biology) 1,391
6 History (incl pre-History) 1,212
7 English 1,188
8 Sociology 992
9 Biochemistry & Molecular Biology 798
10 Psychobiology (incl pre-Psychobiology) 710

I majored in history, but my minor was in undeclared.

SAITO! Where are you?

177

Don't you remember from History 1A? I was the guy in the shirt.

176
Both of my undergrad majors are on that list

Giants up on the Reds 4-1 going to the 9th.

179 I knew I recognized you from somewhere.

I don't like this inning. It's very DBacky.

I can't watch this.

Sacks drunk.

I wish I was. This is painful.

Bases clogged.

I'm glad I'm not.

This would really be a good time for an X23 DP...

What is pre-political science?

187

And now would even be better...

All the "pre-" majors are just what they call undergrads who haven't taken enough upper division classes yet.

186 - if you want clogged, try a Hardees thickburger

{insert vulgarity}

There goes Maddux' W

bah! Double play would have done it

That was disappointing.

My wife really hates the rattle snake noise they play at the BOB. I also think it's annoying.

Giants win 4-1.

Time for one of those patented Dodger home runs.

Stop laughing.

I think the Byrnes at bat really shook Broxton up, in hindsight even if Hudson sacrifices, they walk Gonzalez, if Tracy and Jackson do their thing, he gets out of the inning.

Is it JD Drew's turn to clinch his player of the game?

198 That wasn't laughing.

The Giants are taking their turn at this streakiness thing.

198

I'm sorry what did you say? I was laughing.

201

The Giants have now won 1 straight!

I was laughing

Out loud, no less

Somebody needed to tell Julio he was still on the Mets.

Game would have been ours.

From the UCLA General Catalog on why to be a History major:

" Opportunities
Leading to a Bachelor of Arts degree, it is excellent preparation for a wide variety of careers -- law, teaching, business, the communications media, public services, and medicine."

I guess I fall under "public services", but wouldn't that include anyone who works for the government?

I parlayed my History degree into a lucrative career in interpretive dance.

I often think how my life could have been different if I had been a history major.

The UCLA history department in my day was a good opportunity to encounter football players deigning to attend class.

I guess I fall under "public services", but wouldn't that include anyone who works for the government?

I can think of plenty of people who "work" for the government that aren't really "serving" the "public"

The info for the philosophy major says "it is not designed for careers."

210

Bob Dylan said, "You've got to serve somebody."

211 - lol

212

But that was in his temporary insanity phase.

210 I'm sure we all could, but then we'd probably all be thinking of different people.

Elmer's glue held up

That was the same pitch three times. How could Clark act so surprised?

Good time for a HR by Bet...

Oh no, the scapperiffic Byrnes leads off in the 10th!

We're doomed!

If I'm going to coin a word, I should spell it correctly.

Scrapperiffic.

It appears Mark Alexander has been sent back to Jacksonville, likely to serve as their closer for the end of the season and post season. His demotion makes it even more unlikely that he will see the majors this year.

Hrmm. Line drive. I'd say that was more sort of "scraptabulous."

222
Not a sock puppet.

223 How can you be sure?

That's the most pathetic "Beat LA" chant I've ever heard.

Man, Furcal absolutely hosed up right there. That ball was humming.

Not as bad, though, as when Padre fans started it down 1-0 in the first.

incidentally, Andy Laroche homered for Vegas tonight batting 6th, 2 run shot, as he went 1-4 with a K. He made a fielding error but also started a double play.

Other players of note:

Kemp 0-4
Loney 1-3, BB, 2B, R, RBI
Young 1-4, 2B, K, GIDP

Funny, I was just thinking the Dodgers were giving Gonzo too much credit with all the walks - then everything goes according to script.

I like the Lugo ph here

230

In the sense that he's a better pick than Hall? Not much left on the bench just now.

Drew will come through.

Furry was dead-bang out.

When Furcal broke for second on the first pitch, had a huge jump, and Lugo fouled off a ball low and away, I cringed. Methinks the inning might have been a little different.

234
I was expecting a 1200 word treatise on why Lugo shouldn't have swung.

235 I stick to the one-liners. I leave the treatises for others.

234 Let's hear it for moot points!

Scrapperific Drew

Hooray!

236

Yes, I left out that it would be from someone else.

The Toby Hall treatise checked in at 1,233 words.

DREW!! WOOT!

Drew did come through.

3-6, 2 R, 4 RBI, 9 TB

nice

233 It looked like one of those "ball is early, tag is late" plays.

Well... I'm gonna call it a night. Need to beat the traffic...

Enter Saito

Bronx Banter is closing in on 500 comments.

Lugo as defensive replacement. Grady learns

Just got home, was surprised to see the game was still on, and I made it just in time for Drew's RBI.

Looking over box score... Drew's having a nice game, Nomar is not (6 LOB??), Maddux was in midseason form (not a good thing), it's nice to have Saito in now, but maybe he should've come in in the 8th inning.

C'mon Saito. The crowd wants to go home with frowns.

Come on!

Ye gods...

B on balls in that situation. Its over. and the view of Kent showed that he knew it too.
Good night.

This is very, very frustrating.

What happened?

247 When they get 220 comments out of a Rudy Seanez DFA thread, I'll be impressed.

Is a 1b mitt supposed to be so floppy? It seems like Nomar's mitt is especially floppy (for lack of a better word).

His first error of the season was a ball that practically took the mitt off his hand.

Sacrifice and error. 1st and 3rd with no outs.

bah

Bronx Banter, here we come!

I think I'll step into the kitchen for an extra helping of bitter disappointment.

At least Repko hit the cutoff man!

I guess I picked a good time to start drinking.

Make it stop.

Saito appears to be overthrowing.

Clearly on purpose. Throw him out, ump. Look good doing it.

This grows painful.

265 If you're quiet enough, you'll probably here me overthrowing, as well.

Oi. This is not good.

that's what he meant to throw to Estrada

God, not Byrnes again.

If Byrnes gets a game-winning hit here, I'm getting my diploma out of the drawer and crossing out "History" and writing in something like "Death to Arizona!"

I love Eric Byrnes. He's a nutcase, sure, but I love him. If Saito throws it far enough out of the strike zone, I bet Byrnes would dive for it.

271. Seems like every time you look up, he's in the on deck circle. He and Barry Bonds.

Here we go again. Can't he foul one into his foot and leave the game?

Or do that.

274 Or David Eckstein.

25 pitches for that inning from Saito

My diploma is safe.

For now.

There was so much angst on that play, my brain shut down and proceeded to play Ethel Merman tunes. Next thing I knew, the Dodgers were out of the inning.

I nearly prayed for the swift mercy of a walk off. That was harrowing.

Let's not do that again.

MLB.tv now has muzak and some announcements/advertising during the commercial breaks. Don't know how I feel about that.

The Arizona announcers are terrible, btw.

Is something wrong with Mo? First he wasn't available in Game 1 in Seattle, now Dotel and Myers are warming up.

280 & 207 I can't wait for the stage adaptation.

284 That should have been in the Banter thread, obviously.

who's left in the dodger pen?

Aaron Sele is available.

No problem Travis. I'll be over at Banter discussing Broxton and Saito in a few minutes.

Meetcha over there.

287 and Beimel

280- that's good angst.

C'mon guys, four losses in a row is very bad form.

Only Tomko and Dessens have been able go 1-2-3 so far.

And Biemel.

Does college football really start tomorrow?

Save for an Angel run in the bottom of the 9th, Anaheim and New York will go into extra innings.

285 The world isn't ready for a one man show featuring Ethel Merman and interpretive dance.

Lord knows I'm ready when it is.

295

I thought it started on August 31.

297

You'll be swell! You'll be great!
Gonna have the whole world on the plate!
Starting here, starting now,
honey, everything's coming up roses!

Clear the decks! Clear the tracks!
You've got nothing to do but relax.
Blow a kiss. Take a bow.
Honey, everything's coming up roses!

Now's your inning. Stand the world on it's ear!
Set it spinning! That'll be just the beginning!
Curtain up! Light the lights!
You got nothing to hit but the heights!
You'll be swell. You'll be great.
I can tell. Just you wait.
That lucky star I talk about is due!
Honey, everything's coming up roses for me and for you!

Wasn't Byrnes supposed to be up?

There's a UCLA vs. Washington game on FSNPT tomorrow at 2. Fresno St. vs. USC at 6. I know they rerun old games, but usually those are marked as classics.

These other announcers are so god awful, that when Vin Scully is unfortunately unable to announce games, I don't see myself being very interested in baseball anymore.

It's a quarter to two, Sele just gave up a hit on the first pitch, and Ethel Merman lyrics have been quoted on DT.

I think it's time for bed.

303 It's time do dance!

Interpretively, of course. Um, go Dodgers.

301

Division I-A football starts on August 31 when Boston College plays at Central Michigan at 3 pm PT.

Would it have made sense for Beimel to pitch this inning? Hudson (s), followed by two lefties. Then if it goes longer, you have Sele to finish it.

297 - If the world is not ready for that, what good is the world?

Chad Tracy, the designated DP escape hatch. Dodgers vote him a half-share of their World Series money.

I switched back to this after dinner (local, national, local and the News Hour intervening) and was astonished to find it in the 11th inning. When I turned over to news it was bases loaded and no outs in the 8th for the DBacks.

What'd I miss?

13th inning

with any success Nomar should see plate appearance #7 of the night here

297 I'm still having trouble quencing the hysterical laughter.

The line was good, but what I really can't shake is the mental image of the official Greg Brock performing it.

Repko showing some discipline. Who'd a' thunk?

Its about time we got something in return from the extended Tracy clan.

Mike Napoli's name is being cursed on Bronx Banter right now.

Dang them for no longer having Shawn Green.

Don't worry guys. Only nine more hard throwing right handed Latino relievers to face before we break the D-Backs bullpen.

No TV here. Anyone know how many left in the stadium?

315

That's Mr. Green now.

In case anybody was curious, the Banterers decided there was nothing wrong with Rivera that firing Joe Torre wouldn't solve.

Only seven of them are named E. Gonzalez

Stop that!

Our situation has not improved.

314 Mike Napoli? Try Joe Torre and the home plate umpire.

There should be a law against moronic use of the PA system after 11 p.m. The demographic you're trying to entertain went to bed already. The rest of us shouldn't have to put up with it.

You just take the out and then you walk Estrada, and face Livan Hernandez.

Oh no, look who's on deck.

324 Well said.

Fan law?

Fan law.

This is looking iffy.

Bunting in that situation seems pretty stoopid

If the Backs win on a suicide squeeze, I will be most displeased.

We're going to get beat by a pitcher batting.

Goodnight.

324 - I'm still up.

Quick, somebody go rescue Bob's diploma!

You knew it would be Byrnes.

Diploma promise no longer applicable after 11 pm.

Mr. Scrappy again.

I dont believe it.

Everything's coming up roses.

This can't be healthy.

Wasn't he already out, since there was a runner on first?

Just what you were waiting for Lyon vs. Beimel.

341 Not with 2 outs.

341 I'm not sure but since the umpire made the out signal, I guess not.

This is the guy. He's from utah.

The only way Hall doesn't bat is if Nomar and Drew hit home runs.

I don't know if I've ever seen a force out at home on a dropped 3rd strike.

Man a 3rd homer wouldda been great for JD!!

234 Yes, Greg, and I cringed too [add also the obligatory off color remark].

235 No need for another treatise, Bob, since now we can simply mimeograph the one posted and hand it to Julio for further review. He even gets to smell it, hot off the press.

I remember Vinny talk about that longest game the Dodgers played in Montreal ... maybe we'll beat that. But it is hard to imagine as that was scoreless until the end and this is ugly to the end.

If you can't hit last years closer of the month club retread from Utah, that's a bad sign.

Does Bob Melvin author a book titled "Baseball Managing for Dummies"?

Can we assume that Beimel is simply unavailable at this point, and that Sele's gonna just run through the rest of the game?

346

Wrong.

I did the math and it's impossible that Byrnes will bat this inning.

350
In the long 1989 game in Montreal, the Dodgers set a record by playing 22 innings and never once drawing a walk.

I thought beimel pitched already but I've been in and out.

Enjoy that Gonzo. He could have hit that single the other times you were up with the game on the line!!

For all our worries about Byrnes, I should point out that he's 2 for 8 now.

353

I'm guessing that Beimel is OK, and Grady is just going with the "this may go on a while, so I'm going with a starter who can give me a bunch of innings" theory.

Is it me or during this little downturn, we are not getting the corners?

Why is Martin setting up outside the strike zone on a 3-1 count?

I hope that Arizona doesn't approach the single game record for LOB.

That's 27 by the Braves in a 20-inning game in 1973.

360: Sure - I just remain surprised that he didn't trot out Beimel for an inning or two before turning to the distance runner. Must be hard on a guy, being the one dude on the club that does'nt pitch in a 14-inning game where the starter only went 5.

Bob -- seriously you add a lot to these chats. Thank you. No walks in 22 innings. Things were different pre Money Ball. NO WALKS in 22 innings? that just sounds soooo unlikely. Amazing. I bet Vinny said something funny about that at the time. I mean in San Fran he talked about Eliszer Alfonzo a million times cause he has walked once!

Wow, 4 hours 45 minutes. This is like six innings of a Yankees/Sox game

Considering the popularity of Mexican food in Arizona...the crowd probably really is full of beans. :-)

365
Vin wasn't at the 22-inning game. Ross Porter did all 22 innings on the radio by himself as Don Drysdale was sick. I listened to the whole game with my grandmother.

The Dodgers didn't draw a walk that night because they had a really bad lineup.

Drew looks like a pre political science major.

Arizona could win the game and still leave 21 runners on base.

368- yeah that was a bad year. Rick Dempsey won it right on a homer? I think I knew that Ross did that whole game. Man I miss him.

As frustrating as it is for we Dodger fans, imagine being an Arizona fan.

Sele is clutch tonight

Arizona sucks.

Wow.

C'mon, I mean this game is begging to be taken. Just think about the karma.

It is not a coincidence that Aaron Sele rhymes with Harry Houdini.

Maybe they should have tried a squeeze play.

The sum of AZ's LOB column in the Gameday box score is now at 42

How have we managed not to lose this game, so far? It's stupendous!

This is beginning to remind me of the marathon in Houston, which I happened to be at.... hopefully this will be more rewarding.

OK, now it's getting scary.

Here is the boxscore from the 27 LOB game:
http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B05040PHI1973.htm

Alright, fanerman. Time for a "3.5's getting it done" prediction.

368

I just looked up the game (I'm getting better at using Retrosheet). Alfredo Griffin led off for the Dodgers and went 0 for 9. That's a good start on not drawing any walks.

373: "C-l-u-t-c-h" is a hilarious way to spell "giving me angina."

Nevermind

Arizona deserves to lose this game on a Jason Repko InsidetheParkHomer.

They then deserve to lose like their next 5 games at least.

I never thought I'd see another Jim Tracy.
But I have.

Long live Bob Melvin!

haha as it turns out clutch and angina proviking situations happen to be interchangable

As an on-again, off-again DT follower (because of lack of time, not lack of interest), I don't know all of the argot. I've figured out some of it, but I would like to know why Ethier is referred to as "3.5". Could someone enlighten me?

Bets on Toby Hall pitching tonight?

So, we can't buy a baserunner, and yet we spot them 1st and 2nd every inning? How is that fair?

At least the Dodgers aren't leaving anybody on base. Of course, we aren't getting anybody on base...

389 There was much debate whether Eithier was a fourth outfielder or a starter.

Hence, 3.5 was coined by some genius. His name escapes me.

I'm having a great time. I think they should let teams "deputize" coaches....seriously I'd love to see Mariano Duncan take some hacks. Maybe get Rick Honeycutt pitch to Bob Melvin?

Hoorah for hits. Next!

I actually hope we see Toby Hall for nine innings tomorrow night.

THe legend of Martin will grow if he steals 2nd after catching 15 innings, and then is driven home on a blooper by Repko.

394 If the game goes on long enough, the rosters will expand, and there will be a whole slew of new pitchers to trot out.

Honeycutt left his thumbtack at home.

382

Nice. The Braves managed to turn 17 hits (including 3 doubles and a homer), 10 walks and 3 HBP into four runs. They deserved to lose. Just like the D'Backs tonight.

400
Don't forget the four errors the Phillies made as well.

393

That's what I was guessing. Thanks!

I was convinced Livan Hernandez was going to win the game for the Snakes. He looks like he has expanded as much as Barry Bonds but with food not the clear...

anybody know if there was a 14th inning stretch?

401

Arggh. I forgot that. Thanks! Dick Ruthven started that game for the Phillies, so I've now mentioned him twice tonight!

400
Five future managers played in that 1973 game: Johnny Oates, Davey Johnson, Dusty Baker, Bob Boone, and Larry Bowa.

Story about Shawn Green the Jewish ballplayer in the NYT:

http://tinyurl.com/rja7c

It mentions Shamsky and Blomberg from the Mets/Yankees of the 1970s; I'd pretty much forgotten them. Koufax and Greenberg are covered.

please don't walk lyon

407 Once again, the Griddle has been thoughtlessly spurned.

Things were going much too smoothly for Sele.

381 Hey Longhorn Bill I was at that game in Houston too! I stayed through the whole game but figured it was going to end up being a heartbreaker, and I was right. The only good game of that entire series was Nomar's grand slam off of Lidge, which made the whole series worth it in spite of dropping 2.

"at least the first guy made out." -- Vin

"he walked in his first career at bat he walks. what a ballgame. Wouldn't you know it!" -- Vin

I love it!

407 See: Griddle

Byrnes' batting for the 9th time tonite.

408

Too late!

404: Everyone knows that Taft started the 7th inning tretch, 'cause his leg hurt. Less well known is that Warren Harding started the 14th-inning tretch because he really needed to pee. You can look it up! (And thereby prove it's not true.)

The only actual pitch out of the strike zone to Lyon was the one the umpire called a strike.

416 Clearly false. Warren G. Harding was dead by the 14th inning.

Rats. Sorry, Bob.

A fifty dollar book of Union Oil auto script to the Long Beach Retarded Children's Foundation in Long Beach. Rats.

Oh, fudge.

gahhhhh.

Bob Melvin did not deserve to win this game.

That sucks.

...cracking beer

Arrg. Bud Selig hates the Dodgers.

;-)

Did we win?

I hate extra innings games on the road.

Well, that was certainly frustrating. On the other hand, I generally have zero expectations for the Dodgers to win anything whatsoever in extra innings these days. Sigh.

Dodgers now 1-905 in extra innings this season.

I think the Dodgers hate extra inning games. Isn't that something like 1-7 now?

Let's be thankful that the Padres lost and let's get them tomorrow.

That was pretty much foreordained. We were definitely lame enough not to take advantage of the stupid bunt rule.

418
Why are you apologizing to me?

Just got home. Looks like Nomar had a terrible game. Ever since I left for college, the Dodgers have been awful. Am I a jinx?

431: I'm pretty sure your numbers are more accurate than mine.

434 If you mean 419, because I posted a link to the same NYT story about Shawn Green that you'd already posted to the Griddle.

Sun sets in west. Bob Melvin dumber than dirt. No peace in the Middle East. News at 11.

Longer than tonight's game: Virgin Atlantic Flight 63 delay (http://tinyurl.com/qzx2t). On a side note, who waits seven hours to riot? Wouldn't the two hour mark be the right time for rioting?

437 Usurper of the Griddle.

This is what we should have been doing against Piazza anytime someone was on base

SB - K Matsui (3, 2nd base off M Thompson/M Piazza), R Spilborghs (3, 2nd base off D Brocail/M Piazza), M Holliday 2 (9, 2nd base off S Williamson/M Piazza, 3rd base off S Williamson/M Piazza), B Hawpe (4, 2nd base off S Williamson/M Piazza), C Freeman (3, 2nd base off S Williamson/M Piazza)

Maggie Gyllenhaal is pregnant? Huh.

Oh, well. At least I get to watch Arsenal beat up on Manchester City tomorrow.

Yeah, it's soccer. So what? Wanna fight about it?

wow, that was an interesting game. The folks watching in Connecticut had to stay up late to see the ending. I turned it on in time to see Nomar's terrible at bat with the bases loaded. Swung at a 2-0 pitch and a 3-1 pitch then made out. Then the dumb bunt by the DBacks with the winning run already at 2nd base and the pitcher's spot in the hole (with no non pitcher pinch hitter available). Sele sealed the lameness of this game by walking Brandon Lyon who had never had a major league at bat. It turned out to be the play that lost the game. Oh, and Betemit made another bad throw. vr, Xei

443. Soccer? Sounds good to me, beats golf and poker any time of the week. vr, Xei

Oh yeah and one thing I actually enjoyed about this game. I was able to eat dessert about three times. vr, Xei

That was disappointing, but by the 12th inning, I was no longer expecting a win.

Me, at a bar in Santa Monica after my softball game, immediately before the Dodger game's end, verbatim:

"Hey, Orlando Hudson is up. He might hit a home run. But he probably won't."

Also, why is there a "Jesse McCartney Ultimate Prank" ad on Dodger Thoughts? I'm afraid to read through all the comments now.

Wow, what a great game. It was like taking a punch in the nuts, but still, great game if you're a baseball fan. Haven't read through the thread yet, but I suppose people are going to be all over Sele for walking the pitcher. Sure, that was bad, but IMO the greater part of the blame falls on Nomar, who had what I think was the worst at-bat by any Dodger this season in the top of the 8th. You have a 2-0 count, a pitcher who can't throw a strike to save his life, all you need is a walk to drive in the winning run, and yet you swing at a breaking pitch two feet outside the strike zone. There is no excuse -- none -- for even thinking of swinging at a pitch in that situation. If Nomar takes that pitch, the next pitch is ball four instead of ball three and the Dodgers win in regulation.

It was also a long night for Steve Henson, who in addition to one of the lamer ledes in recent memory on his game story, screwed up the following passage in his notes column:

"Should the Dodgers make the playoffs, they would have 29 players to choose from in building a 25-man roster — the active players as of Sept. 1 and minor league replacements for Eric Gagne, Jayson Werth, Yhency Brazoban and Bill Mueller, who are on the disabled list. Mueller has all but given up his attempt to rejoin the team as a pinch-hitter because his right knee simply won't cooperate.

The additional four openings would mean that players who contributed earlier in the year but were sent to triple A for seasoning could be eligible for the playoffs despite not being on the roster Sept. 1. Strong candidates include outfielder Matt Kemp, first baseman James Loney and left-handed pitcher Hong-Chih Kuo."

The Dodgers would have about 150 players to choose from, not 29, and as we know, they need not have been up earlier in the season as Henson claims. Tight deadline or no tight deadline, there's not much of an excuse for messing that up.

That said, I think Steve has clearly done a better job covering the Dodgers this year than he did last.

I hereby propose the following as #13 on Jon's "Thank You for Not" list below:

Posting a news item without first checking to see whether it has already been posted on The Griddle

451
Thanks, but I've decided to just let things like that pass.

451 - What was 11 and 12?

11 was posting while drunk and 12 was posting while pretending to be drunk

Oh yeah. Posting while drunk is okay if you can post coherently. I'd rather you post drunk than drive drunk.

So 11 would be posting incoherently.

No. 12 is okay, although I think that could fall under 11 or 3.

I admit I've posted once or twice while... um, not drunk, but otherwise impaired. I'm pretty sure you couldn't tell.

I'm not opposed to posting drunk so much as intentionally butchering words to make it look as if you're so impaired that you can't see straight, which just isn't all that funny. I'm not opposed to creativity, provided that it is actually creative...

D4P, I had the perfect Springfield Shopper headline set up for yesterday's game (in the event of a Dodger victory).

Diamondbacks Snake-bit with RISP.
It's groan out loud horrible.

I like groaning out loud...

I'm surprised we went the entire night last night without a Samuel L. Jackson quote.

It's All My Fault.

I have listened to the last four games online as I live on East Coast. Fell asleep in rocking chair with the baby all four games. Woke up to check the score to find out they lost. ALL four games

Needless to say fellas, I will not listen tonight. We can't have another loss due to me.

Gotta change the mojo somehow.

461

I say this to you as a concerned Dodgers fan.

You should give up your child.

You have to think about the team.

Sheesh, priorities today.

Next thing you know, the baby is going to be fed and clothed too! Where does it all end?

Why when I was a youngster, I was allowed to crawl around the house naked while my parents listened to the radio during the 1966 pennant race.

Of course, I was the youngest of four children so that could have been my folks parenting technique by then.

If any of you have the Fox Soccer Channel, Manchester City leads Arsenal with ten minutes to play.

That's kind of a big deal.

463
Always rooting for the teams in pale blue over the teams in red, eh?

464 I'm so transparent.

If there is a positive takeaway from last night, at least repko played the ball off the wall.

464 FSC always finds a way to give you one good match, and one or two total dogs.

Wigan vs. Reading?

Since 451 is aimed (or at least prompted) by my error, and since I apologized to Bob once, I take umbrage. I haven't decided where to take it yet (the dump is about 15 miles away, and gas prices being what they are...), but I'll advise when I make that decision.

468
Can you take penumbrage?

468
You were merely the straw that broke the camel's back

I must've missed the pretend drunk commenter thread. Sounds postmodern.

I've commented under various forms of impairment.

471

That particular person is gone and not coming back.

not coming back

At least, not under the same guise

472

I saw that part, and the part before it.

Apparently I missed the part before those two parts.

472 I must have missed that thread, though I can venture a guess or two.

468 No. I was merely adumbrating my actions.

I've posted with Jim Tracy as manager. All other impairments pale in comparison.

Linkmeister:

Which volcanic rock do you live on?

Well, after a fair bit of sleuthing, I've uncovered the chain of events that led to a certain banning.

Fascinating. Over a period of days, you could chart the slow buildup.

I don't think "fascinating" would be Jon's choice of adjectives there.

Breathtaking, maybe. Breathtaking is good for all occasions.

Intoxicating.

He was harmless and we need to be bigger men than that, unless of course, we wish to be called "fascist".

483
I'm gonna go ahead and guess you know him very well...

Well, I can't speak for everyone, but I know D4P wouldn't mind be called a fascist. I think he kind of digs it, actually.

478 The most densely populated one. The volcano (now in its 23rd year!) is over on the Big Island.

As if on cue. . . Not content with his killing fields, D4P starts a new Spanish Inquisition.

488

He didn't see Rule #14, no auto de fe!

488 The ultimate in self-referential postings.

487 - Well, we saberites (saberettes?) have to keep our doctrine pure.

Regarding the D's recent losing streak, I'm gonna take some blame here. My wife and I have been moving out of our apartment, and I think that the boxes were messing up the ch'i. We promise to unpack our house (now with windows!!) as fast as possible to right the ship.

487 I must say, I didn't expect the D4P's Spanish Inquisition.

Nobody expects it.

Once you've been called a Gameday watcher, there are very few epithets that pack that kind of punch otherwise.

491
Andrew gets all the "edge" credit around here, but I like to mix it up a bit as well...

David Ross just hit his 18th homer of the season.

I feel a disturbance in the force.

494 It's as if a thousand Dodger voices cried out at once, only to be extinguished.

If the day ever comes when my stupidity necessitates a banning, I need to come up with a random 80's Dodger name. Right now, I'm leaning toward Len Matuszek or Enos Cabell.

483 I believe he wanted to get banned. Ever since he was asked to take a week off, his posts became progressively more provocative. He brought it upon himself.

I think Jon had a really hard time making that decision. He was in a tough spot. He doesn't want to ban anyone. He doesn't want to be a "fascist," as you put it. But he did what he thought was best for this blog, and he did it in a considered manner, without a knee-jerk reaction. He tried many other ways of remedying the situation before banning him. And, I might add, he did it with the support of a lot of people here.

The Angel game just got interesting. It's been a long time since the Dodgers had themselves a brawl.

I should say, there hasn't been any fighting yet, but everybody's up on the rails, getting ready for the next inside pitch.

What kind of calculator needs a 12 ft. AC power cord? This makes no sense.

484 How self-assured are you? So what's he gonna say that's gonna violate you and/or me as a person? He otherwise didn't detract from my experience here. So he was harmless. And to the extent that you, me, and the rest otherwise might think him in need of some help, well, with him gone, how are we to give it?

480 Bob, re my treatise, yes, as noted, the walk at the worst possible time, the failure of some to play defense, and not keeping one's mistake in the park, and there goes 1 of the 40 that separates first from last. And if you think I can't be hard on Lugo, well, in line with what I wrote, one is indeed always hardest on those one loves the most, so I'm hardest on me, but in Toby Hall's defense at least he was being asked to take a strike while that pitch to Lugo, and that swing, well, pathetic. He's lucky I'm not his manager, since his return to the dugout is met with my eyes like daggers. Plus the appropriate off color query asking just what was that...

And to now add to the treatise and otherwise more fully answer Jon's initial query, yes, I expect them both, and as to why, well, if need be, everybody we expect to steal on a regular basis gets out there and runs under simulated game conditions. Everybody expected to be at the plate when that running occurs stands in there, but doesn't swing, and he gets to see, after that throw to second or third, just where runner x need be in relation to pitcher y's release so that it might fairly be said that runner x has stolen the base. We do that often enough and we don't even have a concious choice any more, I mean, I don't need to evaluate the probabilities when it comes to my breathing and blood circulation, as the autonomic and subsconcious me do just fine in that regard and never mind any conscious thought on my part. So he won't make the conscious decision to not swing, since the lesson will be so ingrained that he just won't swing. That's what we're aiming for [you can call me their drill sargeant if you like, since the purpose is entirely the same]. And back to '78, well, the one stat I left out, that I wish so much that we'd repeat, and with more than the one soul, as in, with Furcal, Lofton and Lugo it could three of them, but with their own lesson ingrained, as did Lopes in '78, one could reasonably expect to see 45 SBs with 4x caught stealing for each of them.

I'll otherwise let those who believe the stolen base overrated to explain why we don't want to trade 12 outs for 135 additional bases, and never mind any associated effect that might attend that running riot on the basepaths such as those fastballs that those following might all the more expect to see, and I'll otherwise be so generous as to grant the proposition that for all 12x caught stealing, the runner would have otherwise scored...

You want interesting? Bernardini will be running in a few minutes, in the Travers Stakes at Saratoga.
(455) agree, cause in a relative sense, who cares if someone uses the 'word' teh, rather than trying to drive down the 101?

I think Jon had a really hard time making that decision. He was in a tough spot. He doesn't want to ban anyone. He doesn't want to be a "fascist," as you put it

Jon has said it himself on numerous occasions. DodgerThoughts is not a democracy; it is a benevolent dictatorship.

(Oh yeah! I just used a ";". You gonna ban me Bob?)

benevolent dictatorship

I prefer "ruthful" over "benevolent"

I must be a pretty small person, because I find 483 offensive. Not to mention wrong.

I suppose since he didn't bother you, he was harmless. Never mind who else he bothered. Never mind I spent more time making peace after the damage he caused than for all other commenters combined.

I went out of my way, more than I have for just about any other commenter here, to try to keep the peace with him, to try to help him be a welcome commenter here, long after many people wondered why. Since the beginning of the season, I've tolerated the guy despite comments that were in clear violation of the guidelines that everyone else here seems to be able to follow. He clearly didn't want the help. I tried to be nice - it didn't work. I got tough - it didn't work. Nothing worked.

So please, spare me your admonitions and your casual talk about facism. If you don't like the way things are done here, there are plenty of other message boards where the kind of freedom you want can be found.

Philosopher King is also acceptable.

506

Indeed.

497 I wasn't calling Jon a "fascist". But we otherwise all [yes, all] have "fascist" tendancies [one of those things we all need overcome]. The blog is otherwise not mine but Jon's and given the attendant circumstances, the word "ingrate" would properly attend my calling Jon a "fascist."

And, yes, you and Mr. Brock are correct, since the course of events, well, based on my experience of prior human history, given certain initiating events, the subsequent course of history was most certainly probable. But for the irony that I noted prior without calling it such, that circumstance is precisely why he stays. I suppose that the broader issue could otherwise be phrased in terms of, what do the third persons do when some other is bent on self-destruction? If it helps, call it suicide by cop [since that's precisely what it was].

486 Linkmeister:

I know where Kilauea is. I live on Isenberg St. in Moilili [rather near the park that once housed the old Honolulu Stadium]. And we live on a volcanic rock, which is kind of what makes this place unique, I mean, nearly all the rest here live on some bland continent that starts and stretches from nowhere to forever, but you and I live on that part of the volcano that breached the ocean and lived to tell the tale. And you and I don't need climb Mt. Everest, as we live on top of our very own Mt. Everest. As you can see, I revel in it...

508 - 2nd Paragraph.

Yawn.... My parents live in a volcano, at least half of the year.

Godwin's Law is now in effect!

508 You're dancing a fine line. In the interest of self-preservation, I'd suggest you move on from this line of discussion. Consider it friendly advice.

A brilliant, brilliant, win for Bernardini... Sorry to post/dance off discussion - I have a small amount of Catholic guilt, but it is gone.

You're dancing a fine line

And we're not talking the lucrative, interpretive kind...

510-

It is not. He only made a fascist analogy. Godwin's law is more specific.

513 My next piece will be entitled "Treatise on the worth of the backup catcher." Music set to Ethel Merman's version of "Hey Good Lookin"

514 - Though one could argue that because it's a "law", it's always in effect.

But then you'd be a semantics Nazi...

>>ducks<<

overrated to explain why we don't want to trade 12 outs for 135 additional bases

I think your math or judgement of the players is off.
It would be better to trade 12 outs for 135 additional bases. That means stealing at a better than 90% success rate.

one could reasonably expect to see 45 SBs with 4x caught stealing for each of them.

What is reasonable about implying that Furcal, Lugo, and Lofton can each steal bases at a 45/49 clip?

Since when could those three ever do that?

In the entire world, are there really two fans of Joe Buck? Outside of the office of whatever ad agency Holiday Inn hired, I mean.

I have made it my personal policy to no longer respond to aggressive comments/commenters. It is really hard but I am going to do it. This is for my own sanity as well as for that of the community.

519
It's easier to resist when you keep in mind that they want you to respond, and that you're playing into their hands by doing so

520 Just like Plaschke.

I know you can't respond right now. He's probably listening. Just tap your feet three times.

(tap tap tap)

Wait, am I in Kansas...?

The Giants beat the Reds again and at this moment lead the DBacks for third by a margin of .0002

I like the Joe Buck character in Midnight Cowboy. But that's the extent of my Joe Buck fondness.

"Where is that Joe Buck?"

There are few joys in life that match Yankees fans absolutely losing their collective minds when the team plays the Angels. For those of you that haven't had a chance to hop over to Bronx Banter, I highly recommend it.

Good times.

Yankees fans have an irrational fear of Chone Figgins like Dodgers fans do of Eric Byrnes.

True or False:

Mark Teahen for Octavio Dotel will go down as Billy Beane's worst trade of his career.

While Teahen wasnt playing that great in the minor leagues at the time, certainly trading a prospect for a reliever goes against most sabermetric thought. Its strange how the one trade that is an outlier to the way the A's usually do business, might be their worst trade of the 2000's.

False.

Tim Hudson for Charles Thomas, Dan Johnson, and Juan Cruz is far worse. Hudson may not be Tim Hudson anymore, but for what he was worth, that is the real stinker.

527 False. It can't be your "worst trade" if the guy you got was pretty good. Dotel was pretty good, until his elbow blew up.

527 Andre Ethier says: false.

There's this guy named Andre that was blocked by jay payton.

529 Dan Johnson wasn't in that trade. Dan Meyer was. Meyer also had his arm/shoulder blow up.

That trade is now effectively Tim Hudson for Brad Halsey.

Which I still don't think is as bad as trading away Steve Karsay for Mike Fetters.

Wow, they allow lots of swears over at Bronx Banter.

527 What would the A's do with Teahen? Considering how barren the bullpen was at the time, trading for a guy like Dotel was necassary. It's not like he was some crappy middle reliever, from 2002 until the A's got him, Dotel was untouchable. Even with his recent woes, he still has a career 10.87 K/9.

Keep in mind Teahen has put together only 200 really good at bats. He was terrible in April, demoted in May, had a solid June and has been godly since. Given the information avialable at the time, it was a solid trade, and if Teahen cools off, you can't really call it a mistake.

532 Right, I meant to say Meyer, not Johnson. Sorry 'bout that. Either way, I stand by my statement.

What Eric said.

508 Near the old Termite Palace site, huh? I'm west of its replacement above Pearlridge Ctr.

What would the A's do with Teahen?

RF, LF, trade Chavez's contract and put him at 3b.

There's plenty that could have been done with Teahen.

Given the information avialable at the time, it was a solid trade,

When is trading prospects for a middle reliever ever a solid trade? Especially one that everyone in the A's organization was very high on. I was reading about how most felt Teahen could develop into a Jason Giambi-esque talent. There's nothing wrong with trading Teahen, its always what you get back. But Octavio Dotel?

Teahen for Dotel is about as bad as Konerko for Jeff Shaw.

Or more to the point, is trading a potential All-Star caliber 3rd basemen, for 60 great relief innings ever a winning proposition?

Dotel may be good, but how many innings was he really going to pitch? What impact, even if he's perfect, would he have made?

60 innings or 600 ABs? Whats more important?

538 Dotel isn't a middle reliever. Danys Baez is a middle reliever. Guys that strike out 10.5 per nine with 4-1 K/BB are not replaceable commodities. Jeff Shaw, on the other hand, is a middle reliever.

A healthy Chavez is one of the top 15 players in baseball, and at least at the time, people were waiting for him to drop a 45 jack season. You don't trade a guy like that.

538 Totally disagree.

The A's were trying to win a World Series. Their bullpen was an utter disaster. Octavio Dotel was one of the two or three most dominating relievers in baseball over the prior few years. (Not to mention a former starter who could be converted back to that if, say, you have a quirky personal abhorrence toward trading for relievers.) Mark Tehean was a prospect on the wane at the time, who precious few thought could turn into anything remotely resembling Jason Giambi. (Although now, after the fact, they will gladly tell you that they thought that.)

I just don't see how it was a terrible trade. A calculated risk, yes. A bad deal given the information available at the time, no.

I'm not saying this was a brilliant trade, but would you be complaining about this trade in May when Teahen was in Omaha?

538 The Giambi comparison came from Moneyball when he was drafted, but at the time of the trade, nobody (not most) thought that Teahen was another Jason Giambi. At best, he looked more like another Sean Burroughs or Sean Casey: maybe a high average if you get lucky, but no power at all. The last two months of Teahen has come out of nowhere.

O/T: if you haven't checked the Flickr link in Ken's most recent post, go at once. That's an absolutely amazing photo collection, and the backstory isn't bad either.

Did a Google to find out what BA had to say about Tehean and the trade at the time.

"Results 1 - 1 of about 2 for 'Baseball America' Dotel Tehean
...
Did you mean to search for: 'Baseball America' Hotel Tehran?"

Eric,
Should I count the records of the Boston and Chicago entries in the NA along with records for the Braves and Cubs?

I wouldn't trade Sean Burroughs for octavio dotel, but it seems like that's a different question.

Guys that strike out 10.5 per nine with 4-1 K/BB are not replaceable commodities.

If a pitcher is only used in a save situation, then I think that pitcher is replaceable no matter how great they are. You'd have a point if Dotel was used as a fireman, but he just another closer that throws 70 innings. 70 innings, great or not, is still only 70 innings.

Actually spelling his name right, on the other hand, nets this:

"The Royals' return on Beltran, a 27-year-old impending free agent and five-tool center fielder, seems reasonable considering the circumstances. Because the Royals fell out of contention in the American League Central quickly, and because Baird felt he had to get something for Beltran in a trade, the Royals were going to have a hard time getting fair value for their best player.
...
Teahen, a supplemental first-round pick in 2002 out of Saint Mary's, began the year as the No. 15 prospect in the A's system, but he has had a breakout 2004 season, earning a promotion to Triple-A Sacramento after hitting .335-6-36 at Double-A Midland.

Since his promotion, Teahen has batted .275-0-10 in 69 at-bats, with eight doubles. Power is the biggest question mark with Teahen. He had a .543 slugging percentage at Midland, but his .391 mark at Sacramento is closer to the .366 career slugging mark he had entering the 2004 season. Teahen, 22, also has a 40-66 walk-strikeout ratio in 266 at-bats this season. He has a plus arm and average range, and had made just six errors in 73 games this season."

546 Just one yahoo's opinion, but yes on the Braves and yes on the Cubs in 1874-75 but not '71.

It's impolite to make fun of people's names, but Teahen sounds like something one would find on the river while punting in Oxford.

550

You would be the only yahoo who would matter in this case.

So Mrs. O'Leary's cow is a defining factor?

548 The problem with that is, real baseball teams have to think about things like, 'Who is going to close out games for us in the playoffs?' I suppose you would have had the '04 A's go with Jim Mecir? Or maybe Justin Lehr? Eric Chavez?

First four batters have reached for the Padres and they are ahead 2-0 in Denver and there's still nobody out.

Make that the first five batters and it's 3-0 Padres.

552 I do think in order to be considered a continuous franchise, you should have to field a team every year.

"Team" being defined loosely for the benefit of the Philadelphia A's.

If you're going to use Jim mecir in the sixth inning, why would you care who was going to pitch the ninth?

2006 Teahen LD%-14.7 BABIP-.340

That's pretty lucky.

Harden, Hudson, Zito, Mulder were the 4 starters.
You really only need 3 for the playoffs.
Why not make the 4th guy the closer?

553 Exactly. Dotel was a godsend to the '04 A's. The A's missed the playoffs by one game. Without him, they miss the playoffs by one month.

I'd still do that trade again. It's a win-win-win trade for all three teams involved. I don't even think it qualifies as a bad trade; as a "worst trade ever", it's not even on the map.

BTW, for a fun exercise, check out Dotel's career stats against Ichiro. Total ownage.

Jennings righted the ship and got Cameron to hit into a force play and Barfield into a DP. 3-0 Padres after 1/2 an inning.

Oliver Perez of the Mets today gave up 5 runs in five innings on two hits.

The second hit was a grand slam by Ryan Howard.

559 You've got me there; that seems a reasonable solution.

Except the obvious 4th guy would have been Harden, a 22-year old career starter and premium prospect. It would be something akin to making Billingsley the Dodger closer for this year's stretch drive and playoffs. Would have been a pretty ballsy move, but it might have worked.

Still, though, the point remains that nobody knew Teahen would be this good. (And, for that matter, we still don't.) He wasn't going to displace Chavez, and your suggestion of moving an iffy prospect who appears to have little power to a corner outfield slot just doesn't cut it as a realistic possibility.

563 Didn't the Angels pretty much do that with Francisco Rodriguez in 2002? At least for the playoffs?

Seemed to work for them.

A healthy Chavez is one of the top 15 players in baseball, and at least at the time, people were waiting for him to drop a 45 jack season. You don't trade a guy like that

Generally, I'd agree.
But I think if the A's still had Teahen it would be a Ryan Howard/Jim Thome situation but with more flexibility since Teahen can play other positions. If the A's were committed to only playing Teahen at 3rd, Beane could definitely sell Chavez off for something good, and at the very least create some more payroll flexibility.

564
Rodriguez had been used in relief exclusively in 2002 in the minors.

559 Let's say the A's make the playoffs in 2004 despite trading Dotel. Who starts? Hudson is in, and Harden is probably in despite being only 22, but Zito had a 4.48 ERA that year, and Mulder didn't win a game in the last two months. Do you make either of those guys your closer?

564 Rodriguez started zero professional games that year. He had been a terrible starter in Class A the year before, though.

567 These decisions in real life being based more on seniority and career credentials than this year's performance, there is no way they take any of Hudson, Mulder, or Zito out of the rotation. That's why Harden seemed like the obvious pick -- him or Redman. But then you'd have to let Mark Redman pitch.

The Rockies got their first three batters on base, but have just one run after Matt Holliday hit into a DP. Two outs and it's 3-1 Padres.

567 -- Why not? Or you could DFA them.

Game thread is open.

572 Thank goodness. If you Dodger fans had suffered through the A's 2004 bullpen (sans Dotel) the way I did, you'd be just as happy as I am to see this thread disappear.