Last night, one of the Seinfelds had the classic question, What do you think mansiere or bro?

On to the subject at hand, I think it can be discussed, I think we now have sufficient data to examine the issue of defining bullpen roles for pitchers from the time they sign with the team.

I don't think Broxton's numbers are similar to Pedro's when he was a middle reliever, Broxton would have the reverse question, can he get in shape and either remain dominant with his fastball for 6+ innings or can he develop some other pitches to compliment the fast ball for the batter's 2nd and 3rd time up to see him.

I think a lot will depend on what other starters they look at, certainly if Kuo remains in the mix, then they probably need to look for one other starter, I would not be surprised to see Ned look for a Bobby Howry type because while you can mix and match your bullpen, you would like to not have to replace everyone during the season.

Follwup from the last thread...Tommorrow, David Wells will have one of those rare occurences over the last 4-5 seasons when he faces someone who has more wins than himself. Only Clemens, Maddux, Glavine, Randy Johnson and Mike Mussina have more career wins. This is the first time he has gone heads up against Maddux. I did check for that, he never faced Glavine when he was with the Braves, don't know if he has since Glavine became a Met.

I would guess that he probably has gone up against his AL foes, Clemens, RJ, and Mussina.

I am really torn about going to the game tomorrow, I have a 5 game winning streak (it helps when they go 16-3 during that time and two of the games were in the daytime, which I try to avoid) but sometimes I just think by being there, I avoid the anxiety of watching it on TV, plus it will keep me away from a card game.

Longtime reader...rare poster

I am trying to forget about today's game, so in regards to the rotation next year.

With Penny, Lowe and Billingley, there are 2 open spots. Should Maddux be re-signed? And does Kuo's emergence preclude us from going after Schmidt and/or Zito?

Ned should not sign any reliever to a salary of more than $600,000 for 2007 without written permission, if you know what I'm saying.

But again, we return to muse upon Takashi Saito. His role has become so defined that he is barred from pitching to a single batter on the road if it isn't part a one-inning save opportunity.

I agree with that statement in that I don't like formula baseball. Just like I don't like formulas to choose what players to to get on your team...

What Little is doing is making a formula a rule, making decisions easier.

What's the point if you have a manager that automatically pulls starters at 100 pitches or 6 innings? Relief pitchers always have been, always will be, unreliable scum. They should be brought in only when the starter is completely gone and asks for relief. How would Drysdale have reacted?

3 I don't think so, the Dodgers will be getting Gagne's contract off the books, they don't have any players with significant bumps due to arbitration, its possible though unlikely since none of the rookies will qualify for arbitration until after the 2008 season, that Ned will offer extensions to avoid their arbitration years, he could do that but I think that is something for next year.

6 first of all, tell us what you really think...

and secondly, although I could be wrong, I am betting that none of our starters could easily be confused with Drysdale...

6 - What makes you think Little's starters aren't completely gone and not asking for relief? Hall of Famer-to-be Greg Maddux took himself out of his last start - not Grady - at 72 pitches or so.

Like it or not, most pitchers today do start to get more vulnerable after 100-120 pitches. How Drysdale would react to the situation is not relevant.

It's worth noting that Little gets criticized both for taking pitchers out too soon and leaving them in too long.

6 Oh my friend, if only those days could come back. But to be fair, for the most part, Grady does what every manager does, Torre does it but it gets masked due to all the other things that go on, the Angels certainly do it with the roles of Shields and Frankie though since they are must win mode, Mike uses them whether they are ahead, tied or down by a run.

If anything, what Kuo proved in his two starts, is that he can pitch twice this homestand against the Pirates and the D-Backs. The only thing for sure I think is that Maddux will pitch against the Rockies to start the final road trip, after that, it will depend on what is going on with the races.

3 - Maddux gets ~$8M next year if he resigns with LA (unless for some odd reason he voluntarily accepts less money from LA than he is rightfully due). That's too much money for someone who could turn into Jeff Weaver in a hurry.

Based on Tomko's previous comments, it seems that he, though respectful, feels slighted over not being the closer. Initially, it seems that Tomoko's conversion to the pen was a positive one, but I think that was deceptive, and now we are seeing the same Tomko who thrived and then faltered as a starter. As Tomko throws more innings we see him in his true light- an inconsistent thrower who'll get outs sometimes and then blasted others. He's not clutch enough to stem the tide or to be trusted to hold a lead. In my judgement, Tomko is no better than Baez was.
As for Broxton, moving him out the pen is intriguing. He reminds me a great deal of Penny. I think he has the potential of being a solid six inning guy.

12 - I'd put it the opposite way. I don't think he feels slighted, because he's aware of how well Saito is doing, but I don't know how respectful he was to the current situation.

If Maddux can only pitch 5 or 6 innings a start, why even re-sign him? Especially of those 5 or 6 innings are at best average innings.

The Dodgers just have too many useless bullpen relievers. Tomko, Hendrickson, Hamulack, Carrara cant be trusted. Beimel's a loogy. Stults/Dessens are "here hit it" type of pitchers.

Broxton/Saito just need to be able to throw 3innings every nite.

I'd also bring up Alexander and try him in the 7th. The league hasnt seen him and he was lights out at AA. He's worth a shot.

If we can sign Maddux and Guo keeps this up then I'd keep Broxton in the bullpen. I like the one-two punch of Broxton and Saito. Sure, you pitch less innings in the bullpen, but you pitch in more important innings, or in innings that have a higher leverage on win expectancy. Yeah, I know the Old School managers (which every manager seems to be a graduate of) don't always use their best relief pitcher in the most important situations. But still, in the 7th, 8th and 9th innings of a close game it's nice to be able to trot an effective pitcher out there. I would prefer freeing up some cash by not resigning Nomar, playing Loney/Saenz at first base then using that cash to sign a FA starting pitcher (Schmidt or Maddux??) and perhaps a 4th outfielder than to convert Broxton to a starter and then spend our freed up cash where? If for some reason we can't sign a respectful starting pitcher or Guo can't cut it in the starting rotation then I am open to the idea of atleast giving Broxton a shot at starting during next years spring training.
vr, Xei
Guo-Guo-Guo-Guo-Guo-Guo-Guo-Guo-Guo-Guo-Guo

I see your point. I guess I think of the Odalis Perez tirades after his demotion.

Maddux has pitched 8 (with the Cubs), 6, 8 and 7 innings in his starts at Dodger Stadium, so hopefully a combination of those will be good, he has allowed 21 baserunners in 29 IP, has a .BAA of .200 with a 15/1 K/BB walk ratio, his teams have won all 4 games. Wells has a pretty horrid lifetime record against the Dodgers in a very small sample.

When you examine Maddux's 2006 record against the Padres, he pitched into the 8th inning in Chicago giving up one run while getting shelled at Petco. Lifetime is probably irrevelant since Maddux's teams have been better than the Padres but he generally has done well.

I don't expect a 40 yr old to throw as many pitches as a 30 yr old. Look at Clemens. I'm sure he threw a lot more pitches per game in his prime game than he does now.
So, as far as signing Maddux, you have to realize that you are getting is a 6 inning starter on a good day.

My hunch is that Alexander is back home somewhere maybe wondering if he will be put on the 40-man, get Rule 5'd or continue to be in the Dodger system another year.

Pedro is and has been a 6-7 inning pitcher for the last few seasons, there are few that to that deep anymore. But I do think that to have a staff that generally guarantees you to really pay attention from the 6th inning on, really taxes your pen after a while.

I wouldnt resign Nomar either.

I'd be happy spending money on any of the following:

Acceptable 3rd basemen:
--Aramis Ramirez (he's probably opting out)

Acceptable Pitchers:
--Barry Zito
--Jason Schdmidt

Acceptable OF/CF'ers:
--Carlos Lee
--Eric Byrnes
--Jim Edmonds

I'd be alot more comfortable if the Dodgers moved Drew to CF for 2007, and signed Lee. However, for whatever reason it doesnt appear that they'll allow Drew to play CF. So that means bringing in a veteran CF'er, and the best ones are Edmonds/Byrnes. Please no Juan Pierre!

2 "Tommorrow, David Wells will have one of those rare occurences over the last 4-5 seasons when he faces someone who has more wins than himself... This is the first time he has gone heads up against Maddux. I did check for that, he never faced Glavine when he was with the Braves."

http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B10130ATL1995.htm
http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B10170ATL1992.htm

14 A month ago, Gio would have been in the game to sew up the 7th. The Cubs may have played badly against most teams but they won 3 games after trailing through 6, two here and one at Dodger Stadium. The only time they led a game throughout was the game Maddux won. Given some better pitching, we could have gone 5-1 against the Cubs.

If you could have one team's current roster and a $100 million budget for 2007 (i.e., for most teams you'd have money to spend, for a few you'd have to cut back), whose roster would you want?

Would the Marlins be a candidate?

If we see Hendrickson, Hamulack or Carrara next year I'll be horrified. If we see Tomko I'll be equally so but I'm fairly certain we will.

Next year, we should have more than enough middle relief to go around, though I shudder to think what kind of "insurance" Ned will think necessary for Brazoban, Saito and/or the departed Gagne. I doubt they'll convert Broxton, and have a creeping, despondent suspicion they will resign Maddux, whereas a rotation of Penny, Lowe, Billingsley, Kuo and--oh, say--Jason Schmidt with Elbert lurking in the wings would be a little better than adequate, wouldn't it?

22 Nice one, the Glavine game I just plainly missed and the Reds game, I just never saw.

At least it was only one game each. And he beat Wells in that one time out.

I stand humbly corrected.

Marlins or A's.
Its a toss up.

If I were the Marlins and had 100mils, I'd put Willingham back at catcher, sign Carlos Lee, Edmonds, and Zito.

I'd also fire Joe Girardi.

Marlins:
SS- Ramirez
2b- Uggla
3b- Cabrera
LF- Lee
C- Willingham
1b- Jacobs/Helms
CF- Edmonds
RF- Hermida

Starters:
Johnson, Olsen, Sanchez, Zito, Willis

Then I'd give the league office directions to my headquarters so they knew exactly where to send the trophy.

24 The problem with saying the Marlins, you would never have their current roster if you had that much money to spend. You couldn't justify trading Beckett, Delgado and LoDuca if you had the money to keep them.

If you said 50-60M, than I think it is more reasonable to think that you could have the Marlins roster. 100M is hard because that would mean a large market, I like the Angels pitching but some of their contracts, Anderson, Cabrera, come to mind are hard to deal with, the White Sox might be a consideration.

I think if you lowered the amount to around 75-80, it makes the hypothetical more interesting, saying 100M, at least to me, makes it harder because of the outside factors you have to consider.

24. Yes. The Marlins. Then I'd move them to Santa Barbara. Well, yes the Marlins. :) The best team for the $buck$.
vr, Xei

I think it would have to be the Marlins, not sure any other team is close (maybe the Twins).

Florida's weak spot is the bullpen (yawn), CF, and C. Those are easy enough to patch up given ~$85M to spend.

Isn't the question if you had a $100 million budget for 2007 would you choose the Dodger roster or some other team?

What if someone came in and bought the Marlins, and was planning on moving the team? That'd be quite a team, if you took their youngsters they have, and then also gave them a 100mils payroll with it.

If you move the Marlins to Oklahoma City/Raleigh, NC, and invested heavily in the team, I think you'd have a very profitable franchise and won that could be a definite dynasty.

Its ridiculous that the Marlins draw 10,000 people a game. Move them to Oklahoma City. OC looks like they are getting the Seattle Sonics, looks like a good market to invest in if you have a sports franchise.

Mark Cuban's always wanted to buy a baseball team. Imagine if he bought the Marlins and moved them as close to Dallas as possible?

They may need to re-name the team though.

I dont think Oklahoma City has any Marlins. Maybe at their zoo.

32. Mark Cuban wants to buy the Pittsburgh Pirates. His home town (I believe). It would be fun to see Mark Cuban (owner) sitting in the dugout or coaching first base during Pirate games. Or leading whiffle ball drills prior to each game. :) vr, Xei

27 Don't you think that if you had a payroll of 100M, you would have to have revenues over that which means unless you have a lareg TV contract, you actually have fans going to the games, thusly, it would near impossible to do what the Marlins did if you had a market that cared.

A payroll of a 100M means you have a lot of guys making more than 4-5 million a year and not a lot of them making the league minimum, sure its nice to say that now, if someone walked and said we will triple the payroll, you can do these things but in practice that won't happen unless you have a situation like what happened this year in LA, you had some injuries so some guys came up and played, some non-roster guys like Saito did well but your success is still driven by guys who make some dough.

35. Good points. How about narrowing it to a NL West team. If you were an outsider looking in, which roster do you think is in the best shape. Taking payroll, flexibility and prospects etc... into consideration. I think LA would have to be at the top of that list.
vr, Xei

The other thing is that unless a player has a personal connection with the area, Florida even in its years of winning World Series, has not been a place for free agents to go to, both the Marlins and Rays will have lots of young talent but I am guessing that junior college football will outdraw them if they go head to head.

Probably more people go to the Swamp before a Florida Gator home game than attend an entire Marlin's 3 game series.

I think he has the potential of being a solid six inning guy.

i'm with "don't mess with a good thing", he's weight worries me.

36 The D-Backs have to be given some thought but that market is sketchy at best. They have a lot of young position talent, they are finally seeing the light under some contracts, though technically they are paying Russ Ortiz's contract for another year or so, he is just gone. But it remains a viable free agent market, their competition in the division is probably limited in terms of payroll to the Dodgers, the Marlins will have to deal with the Mets, who I think especially with their new stadium, will try to become like the Yankees and Red Sox in terms of pricing their competition out. It will be interesting to see if Florida tries to give Cabrera a similar deal like Wright got otherwise they will get hammered in arbitration. If Willis could ever put to great years together, that could be a problem too.

Its ridiculous that the Marlins draw 10,000 people a game
You're right. Those 10,000 people are fools to show up after what ownership has done to them. If they made the playoffs, owenership would probably sell the spot to the hightest bidder.

If you wanted to buy a baseball team, wouldnt the Marlins be the 1st team you'd want to buy?

Their city doesnt want them.
No one will care if they move.
They have a great foundation.

I'm surprised Loria isnt bombarded with calls asking about the availability. Maybe he his tho?

28 - You're overthinking. I'm telling you you get their roster today. Don't worry about how you got it. The fact is, the roster exists.

The Cubs have lots of problems but I don't why they can't dominate their division, they have the revenue streams, Chicago is not a bad place for free agents, and even though the Cards are in their division, they could certainly outspend them.

37 bhsportsguy
Florida even in its years of winning World Series, has not been a place for free agents to go to,...

The Dodgers had the same problem after two years of McCourt's ownership. Colletti broke that problem by signing Furcal to an inflated contract to get creditability.

31 - Yeah. Was that not clear? I just didn't ask it in a Dodger-centric way.

27 - Marlins or A's. Its a toss up.

Hmm...I'm not sure about that. The A's had a $75M payroll this year, and don't get a lot of relief in the offseason (including Zito, but I assume you'd bring him back in this scenario). They're still paying Kendall, Chavez, Kotsay, and Loaiza to waste roster space.

The Marlins seem too easy, when you think of the $80M you'd have to spend to patch every conceivable hole.

But the Twins, with Santana, Liriano, Nathan, Mauer, and Morneau already under contract with a low payroll, would be my #2.

The Dodgers had the same problem after two years of McCourt's ownership.

They've never had problems landing free agents.

The McCourts have signed Drew, Kent, Lowe, Furcal, Nomar.

That 'credibility" thing is just wrong.
Free agents follow the money.

Loaiza isnt a wasted roster space.
At least, not in the past month and a half.

37 I think the reason Florida has not been a big free agent destination is that for the most part, they have chosen not to be.

You cite home attendance, but I doubt that's one of the top 50 factors influencing where a free agent signs. The first is money, and as we have seen in the cases of Kevin Brown, Al Leiter, and Bobby Bonilla, if there is enough of it even the biggest stars will sign in Florida.

The second most important factor is probably distance from home, and more ballplayers live in Florida during the offseason than any other state. (Well, either that or it gives California a run for its money.)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the problems Florida has had with attendance, payroll, etc., are largely of the franchise's own making and not really endemic to the location itself. Sure, Miami is not the prototypical baseball city of longstanding tradition, but neither were Phoenix or Orange County and those seem to have worked out OK.

42 Okay, I think for overall mix, the Marlins (especially pitching, while their regular players have done well, their pedigree doesn't suggest long term success), position players, D-Backs, though they should move some of them to pick up some pitching and a solid veteran bat.

The Dodgers really aren't far away, now you would have to put some faith in some youth, Kemp in the outfield, Loney at 1B, Betemit or LaRoche at 3B (but is that much different than what the Marlins have), if Kuo and Bills fill up 2 spots in the rotation, you can add another starter and mix and match your bullpen plus I think you have some more talent in the system, while the Marlins due to their circumstances have brought theirs up, the big difference is that the Marlins know what theirs can do at least for one year.

49 - Carlos Delgado had no problem going to Florida in 2004, but maybe the 4/$52M contract had something to do with it.

49 - "You cite home attendance, but I doubt that's one of the top 50 factors influencing where a free agent signs."

Actually, it's 49th. Sorry to have to correct you :)

49 Actually, Arizona might host as many offseason players as California or Florida. And don't forget that Florida is tax free which when you're making 10M year, is worth a LOT. Florida's ownership simply vacillated between compete and get ready to sell. When they are in compete mode, they can probably sign guys as well as anybody else or better due to the reasons you and I have named.

47 JoeyP

I think you need to reconsider your reply. You listed Furcal who was the object of my statement. His signing made other free agents realize that the Dodgers were serious about winning. Nomar came after Furcal. Kent wanted to see what direction the team was headed before he made any decisions...even about staying.

49

agreed

51 Pudge is another all-star free agent who signed there.

The notion that Florida is an undesirable destination for free agents is pure [tries to think of an appropriate word that conforms with rule #1.... fails].

If anything, it's exactly the opposite -- it's one of the more desirable locations because of the weather, proximity to spring training, and the number of ballplayers who already live there.

56 - Could also be argued that many of the Carribean-born players prefer to play there as well.

57 - You're welcome to soften up this comment and try again. But I'm going to delete it.

Oh I agree, home attendance does not play into where a free agent signs, in fact the only place where fan support is ever mentioned in a positive light is St. Louis, Boston of course gets grief because some (okay one, in Manny) wishes that the fans would not be so intense.

My point with attendance dealt more with the issue of the health of the franchise and its relationship to the payroll. Given Jon's parameters of this discussion, those were not part of the discussion, only the roster itself and then the figure of 100M to improve or maintain it.

For another time perhaps we could discuss what factors need to be present to create such a roster, no doubt this goes back to argument Jon raised prior to the July 31st trade deadline of whether a team is buying or selling. Those are good arguments to have after the season.

53 And just to follow up on the Florida tax issue... they have a real unfair advantage in that they can pay players 10% less and have it be worth the same to the player. Remember when Sheffield came to the Dodgers but it got held up as he had to be compensated for the tax implication? That's a weird situation that I bet the other owners grouse about.

58 Clearly they do. Not only does it have a large Spanish speaking population but it's also the closest team geographically to every Latin American country except Mexico.

57 - More money was spent in the 2004 offseason (coming off the division title) than in the 2005 offseason (when Ned committed himself...to winning). Haven't we gone through this all before?

You guys are all too good - I really mean that. Your responses are so thoughtful.

In my mind, I wasn't locking a team's roster to its city, for what that's worth. You could take your team to the Riviera for all I cared. I wasn't asking about a team's situation, I was asking about their roster/payroll. But your parameters for the debate might be more interesting and useful.

64 That settles it. They're playing in my backyard. I'll need to put up a big Green Monster type fence, though, or the neighbors will get really mad.

Jon, you have been around the Dodgers due to your SI.com assignments, it has been my impression at least from the outside that the whole Raffy Furcal signing showing something to the other free agents and perhaps the media (who always were skeptical of McCourt more than others) is a thought that has certainly been floated around since then.

While I agree with Joey that free agents usually go for the most money and you can also say that outside of Furcal and Nomar, Ned signed players he knew from his past, Mueller (reportedly only other team interested was the Pirates), Tomko and Lofton. Even Ramon Martinez crossed paths with Ned before. But nonetheless like many urban legends, the whole Raffy signing proving something exists and maybe like Bigfoot will never be truly disproven.

I think that no matter how you look at it, the answer is Florida by a landslde. I've said it before but I believe it's one of the stories of the decade that a team with a $15M payroll competed for a playoff spot until mid-September. That you can even field a team for $15M is beyond amazing.

Anyway, if we're answering the question as Jon originally posed it, clearly the answer is Florida with nobody else even close.

After that, a variety of teams could battle it out for second. Dodgers and Arizona have the players but probably too much contractual dead weight. Cleveland and the Twins might also factor in.

The next player who signs with the Cardinals because he thinks St. Louis is a neat place to live with salt of the earth fans who are the kindest, gentlest, most warm-hearted people they've ever met, will be the first.

I agree, I think this has been a interesting discussion, at least in baseball you can have it, with salary caps in other sports, you are really restricted and player movement really doesn't exist. The draft and the unnoticed free agent signings are what make the NFL, the NBA is even worse. Hockey is beyond my comprehension.

62

there's also the babe factor. i heard florida has a ton of beauties.

70 I meant that after they are there you hear that comment, to me the best athlete in St. Louis since 1999 was Marshall Faulk, no one comes close though Albert is getting there.

72 I doubt it can compete with Boston, Denver, or Montreal, but I guess it'll do if you like peroxide and silicone.

Sorry Joey but the idea that players only follow the money is just plain not true. I would agree it is factor #1 but there are just way too many examples of guys not taking the highest bid.
In fact, the very first free agent ever was Catfish Hunter who was actually offered more money by the Padres and the Royals but chose the Yankees because the scout who had signed him was working for the Yanks at the time and was involved in the negotiations.

69 - If you think that pitching is the key to winning, it almost has to be the Twins now that I think about it (let's all think good thoughts about Liriano's elbow). Start with Santana and Liriano, and then have funds to go fill out the rotation. Nathan to close the games. Wow.

JoeyP - strike 2. In the last 15 minutes, as far as the guidelines on the sidebar go, you've hit at least #1, #2, #3, #6, #7. I don't know what's got you so ticked off, and I know my policing of the site annoy you, but can you just phrase things more calmly?

And I thought I was yelling but in a reserved way that fits my heritage.

And to think not even Jon commented on my mansiere reference. Seriously when I saw "Bro" that was the first thing I thought of.

74

i like all natural my self thank you.

79 - I meant to comment on that. I did watch the episode last night, and it was in my head.

79 Me too. Is Bro a nickname we've given Broxton in a previous thread, or did Jon just make it up today?

Because, really, it's not the nicest nickname in the world. I know he might need a Bro, but sheesh.

78
Please try to be more inscrutable or at least more enigmatic.

82 I believe his teammates call him "Ox" or "Brox".

What happened to "Bull"?

85

it died i guess, Brox or Ox are pretty good choices.

83 I will try and orientate my thoughts toward that goal.

I believe that when you are very big and your name contains the word "Ox", it is preordained.

Bro - as a nickname or an undergarment, please, accept substitutes.

Minnesota would have to be considered. With 85 wins and a 63 million payroll, imagine what could be done with another 37 mill.

Sorry to get off the subject, but is it a given that Gagne will be gone next year. He's mentioned the hometown discount? Anyone have an idea how much he would sign for?

90 I don't think its a given, I would look to see if he start's throwing by November, no hometown discount per se but a deal like Nomar's certainly is possible though what role would you see him taking. Its probably only worth it if he closes otherwise you are paying big bucks (probably more than Tomko) for a set up guy.

81 While Festivus remains my favorite Frank Constanza episode, the one where he yells at "Steinbrenner" about Jay Buhner is good and the Bro are two other good ones that feature them. Oh, and if a van is rocking, don't go a knocking.

I'll jump on this one. Gagne is almost certain to not be back. The Dodgers won't want to offer him arbitation or sign him before seeing him throw next spring. By then, they will have lost the right to sign him until May 1st (by not offering arbitration to a free agent eligible player). So other teams will have a distinct advantage in getting to see what they're getting before they make an offer.
If you want to look forward to a return, at least you can think about Brazoban who I hear is coming along just fine so far.

Shouldn't Cleveland be given some consideration too? Most experts were picking them to win the AL Central this year.

90 I don't think you could consider a team over Florida when their rotation includes Santana and.... um... uh... hmmm...

There just aren't that many decent free agent starting pitchers available this year, and you'd have to sign every last one of them.

The Twins have four tremendously good and cheap pieces in Santana, Mauer, Morneau, and Nathan. Coupla good role players like Cuddyer. Beyond that, things get sketchy.

92 Every year I swear to myself that this is going to be the year I send out Festivus cards instead of Christmas cards.

"A holiday donation has been made in your name to the Human Fund."

Oh, and if a van is rocking, don't go a knocking.

i always get a kick out of that one

Minnesota is the first team I thought of. Santana, Liriano, Nathan, Morneau, Mauer plus tons of dough to spend.

Mike Cameron's postgame comment included this line:

"And it's going to be a big Friday night matinee in LA."

I'm not making Mike Cameron my theater manager.

91
Gagne would have to close for it be worthwhile. I'm pretty sure he mentioned being willing to sign for less to stay with the Dodgers. Am I incorrect?

100 He did say that, but retracted it the next day, presumably after Scott Boras called him in a cold sweat.

100. I feel invisible. And after I took the time. Oh well...

102
We could give you a blog along the lines of the Griddle.

103 Is that you Claude Rains?

93 The one possible solution could be a gentleman's agreement of some sort to decline arbitration, or to re-sign with the team on May 1. Of course, with Boras you never know whether you'll emerge from such an agreement with a knife in your back.

104 Funny you mention Claude Rains. Until this year, I think, he was the only star player to ever re-sign with his original team on May 1.

105 That sort of "gentelman's agreement" cost the owners $300 million once.

102

invisible means invisible in spanish also.

96 And with most sitcom plots, that one had a genesis with the I Love Lucy show where Lucy and Ethel create a charity to get money to go to Europe only to discover that is a crime and are bailed out when the shopkeeper actually discovers a charity with that name and Lucy gets to hand them the money with a bewildered Ethel looking on.

108

i 2nd my thought envisible in spanish sorry folks.

105 No it didn't, not the kind I'm talking about, which is an agreement between one agent and one GM, not widespread collusion amongst the owners. Boras has been rumored to have entered into such gentlemen's agreements before, most recently with KC before this year's draft.

105

don't open up another can of worms please, just the thought...

As usual, I screwed up the post linking. 111 referred to Greg's 107, not to 105.

Out of curiosity, what happens if you link to a nonexistent post, like 146?

111 True, it's a different kind of collision but I'm sure it's still a big no-no. Those rules, for better of for worse, are there to regulate the market as they have agreed through collective bargaining. Circumventing those rules with side agreements is not allowed.

If you link to a nonexistent post, it still comes up as a link, it just doesn't go anywhere until that number exists.

Not ignoring you Greg S- sound post- just tyring to verify Gagne's comments

111 I'm positive it's against the rules for the reason I stated. Whether, like tampering, it's the sort of thing you could get away with, that I don't know.

104 Claude Rains, who like his contemporary, Thomas Mitchell, never really was a big enough star to carry a film (The Invisible Man, notwithstanding) but they were in a lot of good movies and provided solid support to an ensemble.

Rains was of course, Louis in Casablanca, had several roles in Bette Davis' Warner films, also in Hitchcock films of that time. Mitchell was busy in 1939, Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, Stagecoach and Gone With The Wind, but was also in Its a Wonderful Life and others.

Rains was the bigger star, not Bogie or Grant or Bette Davis, Mitchell was always support to Wayne, Stewart, etc.

115- That's weird. It redirected me to an Australian porn site, when I clicked it. Must be a Mac vs. PC thing. . .

Bhsportsguy is coming on strong as a player in the entertainment trivia wars and a thorn in Xeifrank's side :)

I think it was understood to some degree, with the WBC this spring, that Clemens wasn't going to pitch until after May anyway so even though the Astros failed to offer arbitration, it was pretty clear that no one was going to get Roger to pitch for them until after the season started. So while that wasn't collusion, Clemens was an extraordinary case that won't happen once in ten years.

119 There has to be a good joke involving Austalian porn site and "G'day Mate" but within the confines of the rules, I just can't find it.

118 Paul Henreid got before the title billing in Casablanca, while Claude Rains didn't, which I always thought was really weird. Henreid played a smaller role, not to mention which his part is by far the most forgettable thing in that movie.

120 Jon, if I could make money with that knowledge with some sports (baseball mostly) knowledge, I would be sitting pretty. Nonetheless I think we need to have some humor and then go get psyched up for the weekend.

Thanks for the props and I know Scrubs never took any premise from an old sitcom.

116 No worries. Good on ya (man, another one!).
As stated, he did say the words "hometown discount" one day and retracted them the next.

123 Had to be a contract thing, though Henreid was a "leading man" type though from my reading about that film, one of the film's problems was always trying to figure out why Ingid Bergman would ultimately choose him over Bogie and then explain with some plausibility to the audience.

Rains has one of the more quoted lines that is used today by almost every newspaper at some point, "I am shocked to find gambling in this establishment." I always find the little bit where the dealer hands Louis his "winnnigs" immediately afterwards with Bogie's expresion one of the funniest scenes in the film.

Rains is great in Notorious. Even better in that movie is Leopoldine Konstantin who plays Rains' mother. I'm convinced she is the role-model for Frau Blucher in Young Frankenstein.

She has great lines in that movie, but my favorite is "We are protected only by the enormity of your stupidity."

Ignoring all rules of arbitration, etc., what would the right price for Gagne even be? There's something wrong with his arm that nobody seems to understand how to fix, at least, and maybe not even how to diagnose.

120 Baseball at best only occupies 9 months of the year with some stuff going on from November to February, you need to have some backup especially since I can't see daily comments about football (for me its too hard without games), basketball is just starting and as stated before hockey is just a mystery.

But in LA, tv and movies seem to be a natural. And I love what I call reference humor (like Jon's use of Bro leading to Seinfeld, invisible man leading to Claude Rains, etc.) So to get some reaction is great.

126 (Hey, look who got the link right for once!)
"one of the film's problems was always trying to figure out why Ingid Bergman would ultimately choose him over Bogie and then explain with some plausibility to the audience."

That still is one of its problems. Maybe the only one -- it's just completely not believable that she'd choose that nimrod over Bogart. At least they could have had Errol Flynn or somebody play him so it seems within the realm of remote possibility.

That said, I sometimes wish we had a GM whose grandfather wrote "Casblanca."

128 I think the answer to that depends completely on what you see him do. If I could see him throw 94 mph and do it 3 days in a row in spring training (without pain), I'd pay him maybe $8M. And then there is a sliding scale down from there (sliding to zero) based on how his stuff looks and how he feels. This is exactly why the Dodgers are at such a disadvantage.

127 That comment certainly sent Xeifrank out and with over 24 hours until the next game who knows where we will end up.

But Paul Henreid could light two cigarettes at the same time!

130 Okay, I'm intrigued, who is that person?

134
http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0258525/bio

133 One thing about that film, it moves fast, from nervous breakdown, mental institution, to cruise ship and lighting of cigarettes in less than a half hour, today it would take an hour to explain why she broke down to begin with.

135 Never would have occurred to me, that is cool, too bad Bob Daly didn't think to hire Theo when he had the chance, he could have used that Warners connection.

131 For me, I doubt the scale would ever quite slide down to zero. Even if he never plays baseball again, his cheerleading in the dugout and his merchandising presence do have at least some small value.

131- You think he's going to be a non-roster invitee to somebody's spring training? I didn't consider that. I figure somebody'll be willing to bet some amount of money on him without seeing him pitch, first. But I don't have any reason to guess that, I guess.

To the question--I would take the Dodgers, or that Florida team that is now at a 15 mil. payroll--I forget which, probably the D-rays who have extorted us with stupid trades.
I am still befuddled by the way pitchers are pampered and don't pitch complete games.
There's hours and hours to talk about things to come, like training of batters and rules that hurt pitchers, but most of the best games I've seen have been pitched between 75 and 88 mph.(This year)

138 For some reason, his back injury worries me more than if he had a TJ, there a lot of guys who come back from TJ surgery, the recovery from back injuries has to be more problematic even if his arm is okay.

I would want the Dodgers, because of our cheap prospects. If I were not to take the Dodgers I would take the D-Backs. They have the best group of young hitting prospects, but they lack the talent we do at pitching, which is why I would take the Dodgers. I would definitely use my funds to get pitching.

139 Think of it from his side. If he believes he can be healthy (and you know he does), how much more could he get AFTER he shows teams that he is good to go. Might not be a non-roster invitee, might hold his how workout to show scouts he can throw. I believe such things have happened before. I can't believe anyone will pay him much without proof that he can actually pitch a baseball.

143 I would be shocked if Boras allowed something like that to happen. And I mean "shocked" in the literal sense. Well, OK, not the literal sense, but not the Rainsian sense either.

144 Then put yourself in a GM's position. How much would you pay him sight unseen? My answer is maybe, MAYBE $1-2 million. I personally wouldn't pay him anything because I wouldn't want the team to be built around the hope that he will be healthy.

44 Was taken straight from Colletti. I heard the interview in SF when the Dodgers were in town. He in fact said they "overpaid" Furcal to gain creditability. Then went on to say that with that signing they were able to attract other free agents.

What he said confirmed what I thought. But when he used the word "overpaid" I was surprised.
If you don't agree with that, then maybe you can ask bluetahoe to discuss it with Colletti the next time he meets with him. :)

130 - That question relates to whether Ilsa would tolerate Rick's dismal world view and fatalism.

I don't know if there's a spoiler alert require for Casablanca, but the irony in the end is that Rick's redemption causes him to send Ilsa with Victor, because Victor's happiness was more important for world events than Rick's.

140 - "75 and 88 mph" - Cool, that's Odalis speed!

145 Greg S
I wouldn't want the team to be built around the hope that he will be healthy.

We could change the name to the Cubs...

148 And Maddox, and El Duque.

148

Odalis is on the Griddle tonight! Liveblogging of the KC-Seattle game!

To answer the question in the hopper: Florida. A solid core of players and $80 million or so to throw at free agents.

150 - I know, but the point is, the speed they throw doesn't speak to your desire to see more complete games.

Actually, what outfielders will there be on the market?

The major league leader in complete games has 6. (CC Sabathia).

The NL leaders have 4 (Carpenter, Webb, Willis, and Harang).

144 I like that "Rainsian" sense of the word shocked, though the cynical side me always thinks that no one is ever shocked in a non-Rainsian sense anymore.

If I were Colleti I wouldn't spend the dollars on an outfielder. Pitching, particularly the bullpen, not the lack of homers has been our downfall. With a more solid pen, we could've reached 90 wins no problem

156
Stick your hand on some live wires and you will be shocked in a non-Rainsian way.

I guess I would possibly take the Twins as well because they already got pitching, but I would rather take a team that isn't already really good, which is why I would say the D-Backs.

158 Touche

113 works now.

I would take the DRays and buy them a bullpen plus Schmidt. Anybody + Kazmir at the top of the rotation looks awfully nice, especially now that The Delmon is up and producing.

154 The free agency market will include Soriano, Lee, Lofton, Pierre, Matthews Jr, Catalanotto, Dellucci, Floyd, Dave Roberts, Nixon, and Jose Guillen. Luis Gonzalez, Edmonds, Hunter, Cameron, and Dye have options, but Dye's is guarunteed to be picked up. Bonds is also available, but I'm assuming the Dodgers won't do anything with him.

153 I realize this, but I an sonewhat baffled.
I am somewhat of a baseball traditionalist, but I wouldn't enjoy hanging out here if I didn't sense a deep loyalty among us, and an appreciation for some statistacal techniques that instruct a newbie in some of the deep meaning of the game, that I haven't been able to grasp yet.

What was Claude Rains' part in It's a Wonderful Life?

164 Sorry if I wasn't clear, Thomas Mitchell played Uncle Billy in Its a Wonderful Life, Claude Rains was not in that film.

Florida. And then trade somebody for Martin. I really like Martin.

I didn't see the pitch that Tomko gave up the homer on, but it just seems like he has been unable to "get out of a jam." Was it a mistake? I can't picture Ramirez going Vlad-like and going and getting a shoe-string pitch. I'd rather have seen a walk. Then Grady might have brought in someone else (not named Saito).

146- I don't entirely doubt that Colletti thinks signing Furry for the price he did had an effect beyond the immediate. I think it was a nice thing to be able to say when Furry was putting up Roblesian numbers during the first half of the season, but leaving that aside, it still doesn't mean that the effect he hoped for was realized. Or a reasonable thing to hope for. It also doesn't mean that it wasn't, so, that's why there's an argument about it, I guess.

166 When would you trade Martin to the Mets?

For good or bad, the D-Backs announce that they will not bring back Luis Gonzalez next year. Not only are not exercising their option, they ruled out even talking to him about another contract.

They plan to play Eric Bynres in left, Chris Young in center and Carlos Quentin in right. With Conor Jackon already at first base, not sure about Orlando Hudson's contract, Drew will play short and Chad Tracy at 3B, they will have a young but prospect wise, talented team.

I would take Florida and a forty million dollar payroll over L.A. and a hundred million dollar one. Unless that meant I had to live in Florida. In which case I'd need the forty million dollars in brief case, small bills only, thanks.

Jon - re the question up top - do I also inherit their farm or can I get somebody else's?

I'm a fan of the Devil Rays, but their current young core at the major league level isn't as good as the Marlins'.

Here's what I'd do
-Trade Josh Johnson for Vernon Wells and then lock up Wells longterm
-Trade for Chris Shelton.
-Sign Barry Zito
-Sign Jason Schmidt
-Trade for Javier Valentin
-Move Ricky Nolasco to the bullpen

I'm not normally a fan of giving big money ($1+ million) to relievers, but since the Marlins would still have money to blow, why the heck not.
-Sign Eric Gagne to an incentive laden contract
-Sign Francisco Cordero
-Sign Roberto Hernandez
-Sign Ron Villone for LOOGY duties only

C Javier Valentin/Miguel Olivo
1B Mike Jacobs/Chris Shelton
2B Dan Uggla
SS Hanley Ramirez
3B Miguel Cabrera
LF Josh Willingham
CF Vernon Wells
RF Jeremy Hermida

SP
Barry Zito
Jason Schmidt
Dontrelle Willis
Scott Olsen
Anibal Sanchez

I'd take the Mariners, just because I love Ichiro.

Is Sam still hanging out in Baltimore. They're still in the 9th inning after about 3 1/2 hours.

There is something to be said for desperation, Scioscia brought in Shields with one on and two out in the 7th and he got Michael Young out and then with two on and two out he brought in Frankie to strike out Kinsler. The Angels cling to a 2-1 lead going to the top of the 9th.

What could be troublesome especially since their rotation was set up to avoid a 5th starter until the last week of the season is Escobar going out after 4 with a sore knee.

171 - You get their farm.

Enterprise reporting from Yahoo! Sports.

http://www.laobserved.com/archive/2006/09/yahoo_unloads_on_reggie_b.php

Co-authored by Jason Cole no less. He was the sports editor at the Palo Alto Times Tribune when I was a stringer there during my senior year in school.

id probably take the twins.

Cuddyer has broken out this year and Kubel will eventually. Twins hold a 12 mil option on Hunter for next year which I will exercise.

Their pitching depth is just awesome. I would sell my soul to satan to make sure Liriano's arm is okay and he pitches for the twins for the next 10 years.

after that, you got Garza whos going to be a stud along with stud arms in the minors in perkins, slowey, swarzak and to lower degree in baker. Parmelee, the 1b/of they drafted this year is going to be effin awesome as well.

Also, the twins are going to get a new stadium soon which will increase their revenue ability. I just think they are set up really well for the long run. If i were them though, I would go after soriano or Carlos Lee in the offseason. One more big bopper for them and they become incredibly dangerous.

im a closet twins fan if you cant tell.

Also the player development and scouting in the twins org is one of the best in all of baseball. Mike Radcliff, their SD is really good.

177 Wow, USC cheating. I'm shocked -- this time in the Rainsian sense.

Here's to Vince Young, the real Heisman winner.

I'm certain that never has been any cheating associated with the University of Texas.

College sports! Cheating! That's un-possible!

Obviously, Marlins would be the best if you have that kind of budget... though I suppose Twins and Indians makes a interesting thought as well, it depends on whatis avalible out there.

Kuo is basically implanting himself into the rotation, with that kind of performance it's hard to justify removing him.

He wasn't quite as sharp this time around though, he's high heat was a bit too much off the plate this game. though the hapless free swinging Cubs helped him out.

183 "He wasn't quite as sharp this time around though, he's high heat was a bit too much off the plate this game."

If anything, isn't the opposite actually true? He walked nobody and threw 28 balls all game, so I don't see how the too far off the plate argument holds water. The Cubs'll swing at anything. And did -- in that one inning they hit a few balls hard that, had they been further off the plate, probably would still have been swung at, but wouldn't have been hit hard.

huh, what! Did I miss some movie talk and trivia earlier? Oh darn. Maybe the Griddle will have a recap. :) vr, Xei

They're partying pretty hard over at GasLampBall.
vr, Xei

We need to have a DT gathering this weekend so we can perform a witchcraft ceremony/spell to protect Kuos arm/health for at least until his arbitration years are over.

187. Sounds good. Maybe we can all meet at Eric's house and help him build that Green Monster replica in his backyard. vr, Xei

Regardless of the outcome, I can say that I look good in a checkered jersey.

the more i think about it, the more i believe that Jason Schmidt is going to be Colettis big splash this winter. Which IMO would probably give us one of the best rotations in all the majors next year with:
schmidt
lowe
penny
billingsley
kuo

the depth behind them that could spot start in case of injuries are stults, hendrickson (i would keep him around for 2-2.5 mil), meloan, elbert and probably even dessens.

190.

Liked what you were saying until Hendrickson. I'm sorry, but having Hendrickson on the team creats the liability that he will make multiple starts :(.

191. Ditto what he said. vr, Xei

191

With Colletti's paranoia about not ever having enough depth, I dont think Hendrickson is going anywhere. Which IMO is not a big deal if hes on the club as the long reliever/swing man.

With Colletti's paranoia about not ever having enough depth, I dont think Hendrickson is going anywhere.

That's what scares me though. What if Hendrickson does stay, and he ends up having to make multiple starts because of injury instead of Stults or Elbert? I guess if he was a long reliever it wouldn't be too bad, but what if he was kept as a starter (yikes)?

190 Nate, Schmidt is a hugh injury risk. He may not even start tomorrow, let alone next year.

What would I do with the 100 mil, if you make me GM of the Dodgers?

1b. Loney/Saenz.
2b. Kent/Betemit. I think Kent may be done as a productive player. If I could trade him I would, but I doubt there is much market for him.
ss. Furcal
3b. LaRoche
c. Martin
lf. Soriano/ Carlos Lee or whoever I have to give big bucks to in order to keep the LA media away from my door, claiming I won't spend money.
cf. Ethier
rf. Drew
Starting pitchers: Billingsley, Penny, Lowe, Kuo and Broxton.
Bullpen: To be determined.

That does not add up to 100 mil and quite frankly I don't want the Dodgers to spend money on high profile free agents. Keep the kids, and if the kids show they are special, then spend money on them. If the kids turn out to be not so special, count on Logan White to find other kids.

Whatever is left of the 100 mil, I would spend on a talent search to find a good young broadcaster or two or three. I would start my search at Fordham University. If that school can produce one Vin Scully, maybe they can produce another one.

Stan from Tacoma

Schmidt has average 196+IP per yr since 2002.

Nate has a good point -- Schmidt has actually been quite durable the last 5 years despite giving the continual impression that he's about one awkwardly thrown fastball away from never pitching again.

Still, have we not learned our lesson? Doesn't anyone remember what happened the last time we signed a 34-year-old stud pitcher to a long-term deal in order to pry him away from a division rival? Schmidt is clearly not a good risk -- I'd sign Zito instead every day of the week and twice on Sunday. And I'm no Zito fan.

195 "Whatever is left of the 100 mil, I would spend on a talent search to find a good young broadcaster or two or three. I would start my search at Fordham University. If that school can produce one Vin Scully, maybe they can produce another one."

Realistically, that will never, ever, ever happen, much though we wish it might. The Dodgers will go the safe route and hire somebody with Charlie Steiner's resume -- someone who's already well known to baseball fans and who will bring some name recognition. It ain't 1950 anymore and, for better or worse, the Dodger broadcast booth will never again be handed over to a 23-year-old kid. Broadcasting is too much of a multimillion dollar business now for teams like the Dodgers to risk taking chances on unknowns.

And even if they were willing to do that, which they aren't, Fox would never let it happen.

184 yes the no walk was great, but you have to remember, this is the Cubs, the team that fines people who walks.

He stiill threw very filthy slider and breaking ball today, but he wasn't getting many strike outs via the high heater.

It's a small grudge mostly, he still did great, just a few miss pitch in the 4th...

it's simply that i love to see those high cheese strike outs ;)

Some attendance records could be broken this week, while it is unlikely this 4 game series will break the all time record for attendance, 218,948 for a 4 game set against the Giants in 1963(when they counted actual heads in the seats, not just tickets sold).

This weekend plus one should easily top the record for a four game set against the Padres, the old record is 189,233 tickets sold back in 1996.

Right now, it appears a lock that all 4 games will be in the 50,000 plus range, I just don't know if it will be enough to go past the top two marks both against the Giants, set in 1963 and 1962, but it should be above the third highest which is 207,618 for a 1977 Reds series.

The Dodgers are not that far away from having a rotation of:

Billingsley
Kuo
Elbert
Meloan
Broxton
Kershaw on the way

They do not need a long term contract to block this rotation.

And, if the following lineup can put it together now instead of two or three years from now, the Dodgers will have the best team under $100M.

Furcal
Drew
Kemp
Loney
Kent
Ethier
Martin
Betemet/LaRoche

190 OK up to Hendrickson; I don't want him on the team if he'd play for $0.02!!! And I don't think Colletti is all that paranoid (?) about having enough pitching, I get the impression he made all those deals because he likes to make them and will continue to make them no matter how many pitchers and middle infielders we sign/keep. He justifies his existence (in his mind) that way and he definitely loves the publicity.
Article in the Times indicates Kent is still having problems with his side and one fluke play or at-bat could put him down for the year. It wouldn't surprise me at all if he retired this winter, I just get the impression from what he says that he is discouraged and feeling all too mortal. Wonder if Soriano would object to playing second base now?

201 - Wonder if Schmidt would like a Furcal-esque deal: an above-market salary but for "just" two or three years.

I kind of liked Bill Plaschke's article this morning. Does that make me a bad person?

174 I was at Baltimore til the bitter end. Like Bob's KC game, my irrelevant Orioles Red Sox tilt last night was pretty engaging; certainly, it was close throughout. Big hero of the night was Red Sox first base mainstay Mark Lorretta who had the game-tying and the game-winning RBIs. Lots of bad pitching, made worse by a strike zone called very tight by HP ump Dan Iassogna all night. Being behind the plate, you could well see that the zone was just consistently narrow, but the Sox fans and Orioles fans (about equally matched) just went back and forth howling about every close ball that went against their team.

Also, Iassagona rests his hand between the catcher's shoulder blades for every pitch. Is that common? Are the catchers who don't put up with it?

I enjoyed this line from the Nippon Daily's write up of the game: "Red Sox left-hander Lenny DiNardo, who kept the Orioles off the board in the first three innings, had no such luck in the fourth. In fact, a dramatic uprising by the Orioles in that inning knocked DiNardo right out of the game."

Actually, that's from mlb.com, but it sure feels like a translated Japanese baseball article.

The Orioles' wives had a silent auction of baseball memorabilia running during the game (bid now on Kevin Millar's used cleats!). There was a signed Johan Santana ball that was only bid up to $80 by the fifth inning. It probably shot up at the end, but that surprised me.

204 - Not if you think fettucine alfredo is a metaphor for Los Angeles.

I thought fettucine alfredo was a metaphor for slick-fielding shortstops who are lousy hitters and baserunners.

205 "Also, Iassagona rests his hand between the catcher's shoulder blades for every pitch. Is that common? Are the catchers who don't put up with it?"

Almost all home plate umpires do this. It's in the catcher's best interests to "put up" with it because the purpose of it is to allow the ump to get down and see the pitch more from the catcher's perspective -- which, of course, makes it more likely to be called a strike.

Thanks Eric.