Baseball Toaster Dodger Thoughts
Jon Weisman's outlet
for dealing psychologically
with the Los Angeles Dodgers
and baseball.
Frozen Toast
Google Search
Dodger Thoughts

02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

09  08  07 
About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Sorry, Not Giving Up
2006-10-05 20:25
by Jon Weisman

Been through too much. The odds have gone downhill - so be it. I've lived through 1981, 1988. I lived through September 2006.

It's rough, but I like being in the playoffs too much to turn my back on the Dodgers.

Saturday's game has been set for 4:35 p.m. See you there.

Comments (109)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2006-10-05 20:36:01
1.   cdbavg400
Truly inspirational. Concise and poignant. You've brightened my mood a little. Thank you, Jon.
2006-10-05 20:37:05
2.   subclub
Hey, if Jose Lima can win a Game 3 it should be a piece of cake for Maddux.
2006-10-05 20:38:07
3.   Uncle Miltie
2- in that case, maybe we should start Aaron Sele instead of Maddux
2006-10-05 20:41:23
4.   underdog
I just got a text message from a friend of mine who is from New York (actually a Yankee fan, not a Met fan) who wrote "backs are against the wall now".

I wrote him back, "Don't count them out yet, they're streaky and tough at home...

{and added:} about those Tigers?

Anyway, thanks for keeping the chin up here Jon. I find some of the nattering nabobs of negativity in the previous thread a little tiresome, though understandable because we're all a little discouraged right now.

But I'm still looking forward to Saturday.

2006-10-05 20:42:59
5.   Greg Brock
It's always an interesting day when Spiro Agnew is quoted at Dodger Thoughts.

Of course, that may be the first time Spiro Agnew has been quoted at DT, so there you go.

2006-10-05 20:44:01
6.   bluegold
If we had better pitching, I would agree that we could come back. But this pitching corp is pathetic, maybe except for Saito. Pitching wins playoffs, and we ain't got none.
2006-10-05 20:44:58
7.   Connector
I agree with Jon.

It doesn't make sense. I mean, not one, not two but many Dodgers wins this season came about in miraculous fashion. Why would the good Lord bring about these wins if the Dodgers were eventually to go down to the Mets in three games. It doesn't make sense.

As hard as it may be, we (and the players themselves) have got to keep the faith.

2006-10-05 20:46:15
8.   Bob Timmermann
Was someone quoting Sprio Agnew or were they really quoting William Safire?
2006-10-05 20:46:54
9.   Jon Weisman
5 - I don't think it is the first time.
2006-10-05 20:46:59
10.   kegtron
I'm with you 100%, Jon. I'll be there on Saturday rooting my heart out for the boys in blue.

Don't lose faith fellas, its been too long a year (and too fun a year) to give up now.

2006-10-05 20:47:42
11.   Greg Brock
8 Do you quote the guy who said it, or the guy who wrote it?

If it's the latter, Ted Sorensen sure is quoted a lot.

2006-10-05 20:50:18
12.   Jon Weisman
6 - The Dodgers allowed two earned runs tonight.
2006-10-05 20:50:39
13.   underdog
I would never quote William Safire, but then again, I'd never quote Spiro Agnew and yet I just did. Weirdly, I was just born 2 years before Nixon resigned, but I always remembered that ridiculous phrase from history class.

and yet, if I quote him again, please feel free to cyber-slap me. Next I'll be quoting Warren G Harding.

Think they'll be resting Nomar on Saturday?

2006-10-05 20:52:12
14.   Bob Timmermann
They have formed their own 4-H club - the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history.

Three things have been difficult to tame: the oceans, fools and women. We may soon be able to tame the oceans; fools and women will take a little longer.

2006-10-05 20:52:54
15.   Bob Timmermann
Underdog seeks a return to normalcy.
2006-10-05 20:53:32
16.   underdog
Yeah, honestly, if you rewatch that game tonight, a lot of the Mets offense was a mix of bloop hits, walks, and Dodgers erratic defense. Two of their really hard hit balls were caught - near the track. The walks hurt them, but so did the defense and just not getting that much luck. Meanwhile the Dodgers couldn't muster much vs. Glavine. I wouldn't pin this loss that much on the pitching. Ideally, they would have had a split in this series if things had gone a little differently yesterday, but they have to move on.
2006-10-05 20:53:35
17.   Connector
13 - final line

In this regard, I wonder why James Loney wasn't played tonight. Will he be playing Saturday?

2006-10-05 20:54:19
18.   Greg Brock
"Effete corp of impudent snobs" will always be my favorite.
2006-10-05 20:58:07
19.   underdog
Loney didn't play because he's a rookie and a lefty vs. a veteran lefty - if anything I would have started Saenz at first. But Nomar wanted to make a go of it. Saturday, we'll see... maybe Loney vs. the righty Trachsel.
2006-10-05 20:59:20
20.   Daniel Zappala
Two tough losses. A weird play at the plate and one poor inning of relief yesterday, a fluke 2 run inning and not enough hitting today. Baseball is a crazy and often frustrating game.

I'll be able to watch Saturday's game (I have a pile of midterms to grade anyway). Hopefully the result is better, but either way it will be fun to watch some playoff baseball.

2006-10-05 21:00:24
21.   Strike4
The Dodgers need their three top of the order starters to catch fire. They are hitting a collective 3 for 23 or .130 for the first two games. I suspect Grady will continue to dance with the ones that brought him, so here's hoping they pull up to their seasonal average over the next two games, going 11 for 23... or better.
2006-10-05 21:03:43
22.   ninjavshippo
21 - agreed. furcal seems to have cooled (albeit in a tiny sample size), but we need him if we want's a puncher's chance.
2006-10-05 21:10:08
23.   Bob Timmermann
The American people should be made aware of the trend toward monopolization of the great public information vehicles and the concentration of more and more power over public opinion in fewer and fewer hands.
2006-10-05 21:10:49
24.   Bob Timmermann
I think I'm plum out of Spiro Agnew quotes now.
2006-10-05 21:20:11
25.   thinkingblue

I wish. But you know what Grady will do. Betemit at 3rd, Lugo at 2nd, Kent at first. That's what Grady does.

2006-10-05 21:20:41
26.   underdog
25 That's the spirit!
2006-10-05 21:23:26
27.   still bevens
Yeah I really dont see Loney getting any Ab's in the post season unless its as a pinch hitter in the 6th or 7th vs. a righty.
2006-10-05 21:23:29
28.   underdog
Bob: To one extent, if you've seen one city slum, you've seen them all.
2006-10-05 21:25:26
29.   Bob Timmermann
I will again get to enjoy the Dodgers playoff game through the joy of text messages on my phone.
2006-10-05 21:29:49
30.   D4P
You've enjoyed the first two...?
2006-10-05 21:31:50
31.   Bob Timmermann
Well, I actually watched much of Game 2. I saw innings 4-9. My total postseason viewing has come up to about 11 innings of all the games.

As far as I know, the Cardinals and Padres are just a rumor.

2006-10-05 21:37:53
32.   still bevens
It'll be kinda funny if the Cards make it to see two teams with the most wounded rotations in the NL duke it out to see who gets bludgeoned by the AL in the WS.
2006-10-05 21:39:36
33.   scooplew
Unlike in the first round of the playoffs in 1995, when we lost the first two to the Reds, or 1996, when we lost the first two to the Braves, or 2004, when we lost the first two to the Cardinals, I remain optimistic about our chances despite being down, 0-2. After Maddux breathes life back into the club on Saturday, I like our prospects on Sunday, thus forcing a Game 7 on Monday -- Lowe vs. either Maine or Glavine (on three days' rest). This is too good a team to go out in three games, or even four.
2006-10-05 21:50:05
34.   Jae
Has this been mentioned yet?

Joe Beimel told club officials he cut his hand when he dropped a glass in his hotel room. However, a witness saw Beimel at a bar Monday night and saw the accident happen there.-- Los Angeles Times

2006-10-05 21:50:55
35.   regfairfield
33 It's funny you say this team is too good, when it won less games against weaker competition. Thing is, I agree with you. This team does seem much better than those, yet it saw far less success than any of those versions of the Dodgers.
2006-10-05 21:54:22
36.   Bob Timmermann
The Cardinals threw a shutout with Jeff Weaver, Randy Flores, Josh Kinney, Tyler Johnson, and Adam Wainwright.
2006-10-05 22:01:39
37.   scooplew
35 In part, what I mean by "too good" is that the Dodgers have battled back every time that people wrote them off. Many are writing them off now, and I think that is wrong. Hey, I remember when they lost the first two games of the World Series in 1955. I was 7 then. Being a Dodgers fan takes a great deal of patience and optimism and faith.
2006-10-05 22:17:09
38.   Blumoney

I had to follow this Dodger team all summer from the Atlantic time zone...4 HOURS late.

That meant getting up, crossing fingers and dialing up the Think Blue site to get the news each morning.

Gotta say, I liked our chances going to NY. But the same old problems are still nagging.
I figured game one was the wake up call. I was right, but the Mets answered.

Give me one to smile about Maddux - and I will be damn impressed with what this ugly, patched together Frankenteam has done. Give me two and the NL West can look the rest of baseball square in the eye. Otherwise I'll trust that Mr. Coletti isn't done re-inventing Dodger baseball just yet.

Now let's go boys! Just ONE come from behind mugging in Chavez Ravine could turn things around. Let's pop the tires on that NY victory parade! It ain't time to ice the champagne Mets Fan, this team won't quit 'till it's ALL on the field.

2006-10-05 22:21:05
39.   bhsportsguy
I may repeating something that was up already but thanks to LA Observed, here is a nice article from the NY Times about Vin Scully.

2006-10-05 22:26:51
40.   scooplew
38 Where are you, Nova Scotia? I was in Norway for two weeks this summer, and the Dodger home games came on about 3:30 a.m. Needless to say, I don't follow too many inning by inning.
2006-10-05 22:27:31
41.   Eric L
Just to piggy back Jon's original post, I was pretty sure that this team wouldn't even be in this position following the all-star break.

To be honest, I didn't expect much from this team. Any extra games they get to play after the final pitch of the regular season are a bonus to me.

2006-10-05 22:29:59
42.   sanchez101
The Dodgers looked terrible tonite. There really is no two ways about it. Hopefully they can play better saturday.

Two suggestions to Mr. Little:

1. Lofton can not play baseball at a major league level right now. Maybe a winter of rest will do his aging body some good, but he does not take good routes in the OF nor does he have any sembalance of speed left to make up for that. At the plate he hasn't taken one good swing over the first two games of the series. Im not just talking about the numbers or his production: he just doesn't look like a major leaguer right now. At the very least, his skills have declined to the point that Repko would actually represent an improvement. Think about that.

2. Use your best relievers in the highest leverage situatation. If there's a bases loaded situation in the 6th, in a close game ... just bring Broxton in; thats what he's there for. Everytime Tomko/Hendrickson comes in, he will give up a run, operate under that assumption.

I think Ive come to the realization that, while Grady has many redeeming qualities, he is not a good in-game manager. He may be completely unqualified to manage a team IN the playoffs, even if he can manage a team TO the playoffs. Grady's a builder, not a winner. I give him one more year (2007) to break in Kemp, Loney, Miller, and maybe even Elbert, Hu, and/or Abreu. Then, Grady's out and its time to bring in a guy that can win in the playoffs.

2006-10-05 22:33:59
43.   D4P
Nomar reinjures quadriceps, Game 3 status uncertain

2006-10-05 22:35:08
44.   Bob Timmermann
The Atlantic time zone also includes a large chunk of the Caribbean.
2006-10-05 22:37:46
45.   sanchez101
41. Im going to second that sentiment. The era from 2008-beyond is ours, this is just the build-up period. Kinda like the Lakers prior to the Jackson era.

I'm not writing the Dodgers off, I was at the 4-homer game, I'm just trying to be realisitc ... if an 88-win team looses in the first round, that is no reason to be dissapointed. When the Dodgers won 93 games and lost in the first round, no one was dissapointed.

2006-10-05 22:39:26
46.   Griffon64
You always have to have some team that seems lost and helpless and is there as contrast, to show how well-prepared the other teams are and how you don't just walk into playoffs, etc, unprepared and thinking winging it will get you all the way.

Looks like the Dodgers have that role this year. ( the Padres are there as the team that shouldn't be there at all, which is another time-honoured role ).

We need to improve the in-game management, like 42 says. And we need to find guys who do not get the deer-in-the-headlights look that most of the hitters have. How funny is it that Lugo, Betemit et all are hitting better than all the big names ( except Kent, of course ).

Any way, I do not believe this team has nearly enough guts to avoid being swept out the postseason door. They've been tepid all year, except for a thunderous August and a September where they did everything but beat the weak teams like the Cubs, Brewers and Pirates. That was an early sign of them caving, so what happened in the first two games should not be a surprise.

The team is very much a work in progress. The players are coming together, now a man is needed that can manage them, and manage them through the postseason. That man is not Grady Little. The Red Sox fans must be enjoying watching us find that out ;-)

2006-10-05 22:42:30
47.   still bevens
45 I agree with your sentiments, but if we dont make it to the post season next year, Im gonna go apoplectic. =)
2006-10-05 22:57:29
48.   bhsportsguy
42 I just don't buy that argument, what does that mean a guy who can win in the playoffs? I know that is often what is brought up with Bobby Cox, he can get there but cannot win it all.

Last time I checked, in his only playoff experience, he got within an inning of getting to the World Series.

Judging coaches and managers on the basis of playoff achievement is a pretty rough way to go. Especially in baseball when the odds of even getting to the playoffs is lowest of any of the four major sports.

Pat Riley won his first championship with the Heat, 18 years after his last title with the Lakers, did he forget how to win for nearly 20 years. Joe Torre never won until he put on Yankee pinstripes while Cito Gaston won 2 titles in Toronto and he is not managing anywhere.

My point is that winning in the playoffs rests primarily with the makeup of your team and the matchups you face. And sometimes just plain luck. Having watched way too many pro games in my life, sure coaching does have its role but too many coaches have lost at one place and then won somewhere else for me to be convinced that there is such a thing as a guy who can win in the playoffs.

2006-10-05 22:58:25
49.   micktissue
'Twas at the celtic session class tonight and left with the score 0-1. I got back in the car to hear Lugo's groundout and the 1-4 final.

All during class I was wishing "COME ON KUO!" when I should have been hitting the accents. My instructor knew I was distracted but, being as how I live in Sonoma County (Giants country), I didn't reveal I was a Dodger fan silently cheering on the Boys in Blue, for fear of a bow across the knuckles.

Here's to Saturday and a new start - COME ON YE BOYS IN BLUE (in Em, the saddest key).

2006-10-05 22:59:52
50.   Gagne55
48 When the playoffs come Little starts making moves like leaving Pedro in too long and having Penny come in in relief. He's a playoff choker.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2006-10-05 23:01:22
51.   bhsportsguy
46 So if Rivera closes the door in Game 4 in Boston, Francona is still a genius? Boston also went from first place to out of it in one weekend at home this year.
2006-10-05 23:03:31
52.   Linkmeister
49 Why is E minor more sad than any other minor key?

C'mon, folks. A two-game losing streak after a seven-game winning streak is not all that unusual. The Dodgers have looked inept at times all year (there was that 13-loss stretch after the All Star break, as I recall). They're perfectly capable of winning three in a row.

2006-10-05 23:09:13
53.   Eric L
The last time Grady managed a team that was down 2-0 in the division series, they came back to win 3 straight.
2006-10-05 23:16:06
54.   Xeifrank
It will be interesting to see if Trachsel (bad) will be enough to offset the Mets hitting (good) to give the Dodgers the edge in Game #3. I have it being a nailbiter.
vr, Xei
2006-10-05 23:19:46
55.   Blumoney
Hi Scooplew

I was on our farm in Prince Edward Island, Canada.

That meant no TV, no Vinnnie on the radio and only a 28k dial up to watch "Game Day" on the net...which sometimes kept me up until 2:00.

Vin Scully is and always will be the best play by play man ever to call a Dodger game. I like Charlie and Rick just fine...but when the playoffs come, Vin loses about 20 years. I love that guy. He makes magic on the radio. Born in So Cal, I learned baseball from Vin. Man did I miss him this year.

Now my summers are about farming in Canada, but I make at least one trip to Dodger Stadium with my son each year. You plant your seed, you watch it grow and you pray for rain. But you NEVER give up on your crop!

Grady was a cotton farmer. He knows how to give a man the ball and walk away.
His job isn't to play the game. His job is to cultivate the talent and grow a winner. I think he did a fine job of uniting an organization that had clubhouse cancer for years. He got rid of some weeds and he gave this team room to grow.

Grady gave Penny a shot at relief. Did it work? Look, if a guy can't get it done, it's on him not Grady. Penny won't hide behind his manager. He knows he didn't give his best. Maybe he can't. In any case this isn't Boston. We know better than to hyperventilate and hang the manager when a pitcher has a bad day.

And who else you gonna put out there? Pitching IS the problem...has been all year.

2006-10-05 23:33:24
56.   Connector
38, 40, 44

(just returned from shopping...)

I have to laugh. I live in Israel, you see, where it's GMT + 2, i.e. 10 HOURS EARLIER than L.A. Post-season month we're only 9 hours ahead because we've already changed back to Winter TIme.

My alarm for Game Two went off at 2 AM this morning. Regular season home night games are the best. I am by nature an earlier riser. I'd get up at 5:00 AM, make some popcorn and a pot of coffee, click on MLB.TV and watch the game until about the 4th inning (6:30 AM ish) Then I'd wake my teenage boys, take the dog on a walk, buy milk and bread at the grocer, come back home, watch the game some more until I had to leave for work at 8:00 AM. If the game hadn't finished by then, I'd tune back in to MLB.TV fifteen minutes later from my work computer. I saw the final inning and a half of the Miracle Game (Dodgers-Padres) that way.

2006-10-05 23:55:32
57.   Underbruin
49/52 - I think he means D minor. In This Is Spinal Tap, Nigel (played by Christopher Guest, who co-wrote it) talks about how a song he's writing is "part of a trilogy, a musical trilogy I'm working on in D minor which is the saddest of all keys, I find. People weep instantly when they hear it, and I don't know why."
2006-10-05 23:58:43
58.   Bob Timmermann
Do they farm anything in PEI other than potatoes?

I drove all over that island and it either was potato farms or Anne of Green Gables tourist traps.

Lovely place though. I went to Charlottetown, because I wanted to see the birthplace of the Confederation.

2006-10-06 00:12:37
59.   Blumoney
We're down but we're not out. You can figure the odds all you want but there's a reason we play ALL the games.

Do I beleive in miracles? You're darn right I do - 'cause I've seen Dodger miracles before.

This is playoff baseball at Dodger Stadium!
So cut 'er loose and let's ride baby!

2006-10-06 00:27:12
60.   scooplew
55 and 56
Great posts. It's a dedicated fan who stays up so late or gets up so early to follow the Dodgers. One of my favorite early-morning sports escapades was when I was on a journalism fellowship in South Korea in 1991 and I set my hotel alarm clock for about 3 a.m. to catch a playoff game between the Lakers and the Trailblazers on the Armed Forces TV Network. The Lakers won, and I went back to bed feeling good...I agree with Blumoney's assessment of Vin. Unfortunately, I can't pick him up where I live on the Monterey Peninsula. As a little boy, I lived in Brooklyn, right next to P.S. 182. I remember listening to the Dodgers on the radio, coming through the open window in our downstairs apartment -- my dad had the game on while he was writing something on an old Smith and Corona portable typewriter -- as I was shagging balls as the "big boys" played stick ball. It must have been 1954 or 1955.
2006-10-06 00:42:41
61.   Blumoney
He Bob -

I was tryin' to close on an upbeat note!

But I'll talk PEI with you for a bit.

My dear wife fell in love with Anne of Green Gables and we ended up buying a farm!

Yes, the potato is king but I'm telling you the fresh lobster can't be beat!

Now I grow organic produce and put up a hay crop for my two spoiled saddle horses.

The farm is over a hundred acres with fresh water near the shore and a nice 3 bedroom two story home with full basement. We got it for less than $200,000.

The catch is - money is hard to get. So our day jobs are still in So Cal. We "commute" for the summer and the internet does the rest.

And what in the name of Stompin' Tom brought you to the Gasrden Province?

2006-10-06 00:59:38
62.   Blumoney
That's amazing. My dad pounded on his old typewriter down the hall as I sneaked my Montgomery Ward Airline transistor radio under the covers just to hear Vin say, "Hwa-keeen Andooohar"!
2006-10-06 03:57:28
63.   Eric Enders
Everybody should read the article linked in 39; it's simply fantastic. The very best part is this line:

"He said he cannot comprehend retirement, except by illness."

2006-10-06 05:27:00
64.   micktissue
49, 52, 57

If you ask Kevin Burke (popular Celtic fiddler player), Em is the saddest key for Celtic music.

However, the Spinal Tap reference is impressive. Christopher Guest (a great player) would be right about Dm being a very sad key, and in fairness, any minor key is sad sounding.

I think Em for Celtic because getting below D for some traditional instruments (e.g., tin whistle) is impossible, so many of the tunes are written in D, Dm, Em, F, or G.

The reason people cry when hearing a minor key is the flatted 3rd, of course ;-)

COME ON YE BOYS IN BLUE! (In any key might be the saddest/sweetest song)

2006-10-06 06:07:17
65.   Daniel Zappala
You guys are awesome. Great reads this morning. Regardless of how it turns out tomorrow, we have Dodger Thoughts to take us through the winter.
2006-10-06 06:30:43
66.   Ricardo
Hey guys, I´m brazilian fan of LA Dodgers. And although I´m a little sad I´m confident because in LA it´s hard to beat the Dodgers.
And I still remeber Lima´s shutout against the Cards in 2004, in my opinion we can do it twice!
What did you think of Bills yesterday? If I were Grady Little, I´d let him start the Game 4 because he´s very talented and when Billingsley is well nobody can hit him.
2006-10-06 06:36:23
67.   Sam DC
Hey das -- Though you wouldn't know it from the title, Mike's rant today is for you.
2006-10-06 06:57:25
68.   popup
Jon remembers 81 and I remember 65. The Dodgers that year lost the first two to the Twins, headed back to LA and won three in a row. I think the starting pitching is good enough this year to do the same.

Stan from Tacoma

2006-10-06 07:00:35
69.   adamclyde
I was at last night's game. It was brutal.

I went to 3 of the 4 games in August. At each of those games there was a handful of dodger fans in the stands. and were pretty cool - just the usual no-harm bantering toward us fans.

Last night, I didn't see a SINGLE fan in the stands, except for me and a friend. Saw maybe 2-3 max all night.

And... after last night's game... it's confirmed. Mets fans jumped all the way up to the top of the list of the worst, most obnoxious, rude, ignorant and crass fans on earth. Granted, I haven't been to a dodger game in SF lately, but man, it was brutal. totally different tone from a month ago. I don't drink and with the amount of beer and food thrown at us multiple times from multiple people (while sitting silently watching the game) I could have gotten drunk off of it.

I would like nothing more than to somehow, someway come back and stick it to the Mets. I would love for the NY teams to get hosed out of getting into the WS.

back to the game, I'm not sure why we didn't put in a pinch runner for Nomar. he hobbled like an 80 year old man after running out that single. Would have liked to have seen loney in there.

Well, for all you going to the game on Friday... I hope for a better outcome. And don't be a New Yorker. try not to throw your food and beer at the few mets fans in the stands (though they may deserve it).

I miss chavez ravine...

2006-10-06 07:22:29
70.   Benaiah
We managed to take 2 out of 4 against the Mets in Sept. on the road, and one of the wins was with a rookie with a 4+ERA in AAA pitching for us. All I am saying is, if we win game 3 (and we have to be favorites in that game), the we only need to win two games in a row. Oliver Perez is pitching against the Player formerly known as Brad Penny (PFKBP) in game 4, so anything could happen in that one. And should the coin flip twice in our favor, then we would go back to NY to replay game 1, the game we SHOULD have won. This series isn't over until the fat lady sings! Come on boys, Go Blue!
2006-10-06 07:40:34
71.   Benaiah
If the Dodgers should succumb to the Mets, I think I will root for the A's for the rest of the postseason. It would be nice to not hear "Moneyball doesn't win championships". Besides, can you imagine Joe Morgan announcing as the A's won it all? Would his head explode? Would he start to curse or perhaps would he say disparaging things about how Billy Beane got lucky? It would definintely be interesting.
2006-10-06 07:44:05
72.   Sushirabbit
49, 64
Dia Dhuit! Wow. Kevin Burke referenced here. I've truly seen it all on DT. A bit looped, was thinking Celtic? Language? And then session afterwards and I'm thinking there's classes for sessions? Too cool.

I was recently thinking of a top 10 Albums list (ok, CDs or whatever) and Portland is definitely in the top 3 for me. I don't think people realize how influential it was.

Anyway, you can't get much more Irish then Scully and for that matter Shea.

2006-10-06 07:53:38
73.   Bob Timmermann
I visited PEI and the rest of the Atlantic provinces in 1992. I just wanted to see that part of Canada. I flew to Halifax rented a car and saw Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, PEI, and Newfoundland.

Newfoundland is a long way.

Gros Morne National Park was worth the trek.

2006-10-06 08:25:07
74.   underdog
69 Sorry to hear about the obnoxious behavior Adam. That fires me up to want the Dodgers to beat them even more now, too. (Too bad we're not playing.) Yankee fans can be just as obnoxious and rude but they also tend to be pretty darned knowledgeable about the game and the players (in my experience anyway) even if not always fair to them. Mets fans I have less experience with but that behavior doesn't fully surprise me. You must have been annoyed with their habit of standing on seemingly every two strike count on Dodger hitters - I was annoyed just watching it on TV but would be more annoyed if I was a Dodger fan trying to watch the game from the seat I paid for. It's cool to do that at the beginning and the end but every inning?

Did you count Mia Hamm and friends among your Dodger fan count? Poor Mia looked understandably worried last night...

I hope Dodger fans on Saturday show their emphatic support, and get as loud as they can - show the world we can be loud, too.

2006-10-06 08:45:11
75.   adamclyde
74 Yes! with Mia Hamm, I think there were 4 of us there last night! Hopefully she wasn't being pelted with peanuts.

I've been to a number of yank-bosox games. nothing was as bad as this. Oh well, it's only sports - let's hope maddux does well on saturday.

btw, I haven't gone through last night's comments, but I was pretty impressed with Kuo last night. He wasn't as dominating as he was last month (I was there for that game too), but he did as well as we could have ever expected him to do in that situation. Looking forward to the next few years with folks like him, billingsly (who looked awesome), broxton and, if the japanese planets align, saito...

2006-10-06 09:14:47
76.   Terry A
75 - I thought Kuo did very well, too.

In fact, every pitcher did well last night. It wasn't the best of nights defensively for some of our guys, and those lapses really hurt the pitchers.

Of course, when Jeff Kent is the only starting player who appears capable of hitting an 88-mph fastball, chances are it just isn't your night.

We'll get 'em Saturday.

2006-10-06 09:49:15
77.   JT Dutch
"Been through too much. The odds have gone downhill - so be it. I've lived through 1981, 1988. I lived through September 2006."

... Sorry, that doesn't fly. I've lived through 1983, 1985, 1995, 1996, and 2004. This team resembles those playoff-losing teams, much more than they resemble the 1981 and 1988 teams. The '81 and '88 Dodgers were made up of smart, seasoned ballplayers, and they didn't beat themselves.

This team is making FAR too many mental mistakes to win this series. In fact, they have done everything short of hand the games over to the opposition. I don't see the Dodgers receiving 26 brain transplants (one for Grits and one for each of the players) between now and Saturday evening; therefore, I don't see the Dodgers going back to New York.

This one will likely be a sweep; at most, it will be a four-game series. And the idiotic "two runners out at home on the same play" will be shown over and over again from now until the Dodgers win a playoff series again.

The Dodgers haven't come close to winning a Playoff series in 18 years -- and, I'm frankly surprised that a group of fans on this site who call themselves hard-core won't take them to task. I love this team; I've loved it since 1980 ... but there comes a time when you have to go to those you love and straighten them out; hold them accountable for what they have (or haven't) done.

Once again, this team has saved its worst for last. There's no way to spin it.

2006-10-06 10:06:58
78.   Greg S
I must say that I am thrilled to read the comments here today. I avoided DT yesterday based on the vitriol that was being spouted at our team by people who had enjoyed their play all year. We simply lost a couple of games. Things didn't go out way. Grady is not an idiot and losing does not represent "the Dodgers we all know". In fact nothing could be further from the truth. I was ready to give up. Not on the team but on this community. So I thank all of the actual fans of the team who have kept some perspective. We still have real hope in the series (just ask the A's about 2-0 leads) and no matter what happens, we have a lot to be thankful for as Dodger fans.
2006-10-06 10:22:01
79.   Michaelpop
78 - Uh, that's exactly what I was going to say.

If any team can rattle off 3 straight to win this thing, it's the 2006 Los Angeles Dodgers. In fact, I wouldn't expect anything less from this team.

2006-10-06 10:29:27
80.   capdodger
77- How the hell are we supposed to "take them to task" for being a playoff failure? You sound like a Yankee fan.
2006-10-06 10:31:48
81.   ToyCannon
Nice post. Has been a terrific year and while it looks like 2004 all over again, we could sweep this weekend and then see what happens on Monday. Met's are a good team and no shame in losing to them, just would hate to be swept. They have two legitimate super stars in Wright and Beltran and an aging one in Delgado and a possible future one in Reyes. They bought one, traded for one, and had two homegrown. That is a nice mix.

Lot of positives to take into 2007 with Loney, Furcal, Betemit(yes, I like him), Martin, JD staying healthy, 3.5, Kuo, Billingsly, Saito, and Broxton. We have some holes to fill and it will be another interesting winter.

But for now I'll see everyone on Saturday. If you want to drop by I'll be in section 167, row C pressed against the bullpen fence.

2006-10-06 10:44:24
82.   Greg S
77. And what did you think of the team and what they "saved for last" 3 days ago? Anything short of a World Series is a travesty? In a year like this which started with a bad roster, no manager and no GM? Please.
I won't keep arguing with fans whos emotions could their judgement on an inning by inning basis. But I will beg all of you to think before you post. Nobody likes to lose at any point. But if you didn't think this team was a disaster when they won 7 in a row to clinch a playoff spot, how can you possibly believe they are a disaster two games later?
Thanks ToyCannon and many others for your posts. I certainly won't be at DT for the next two games because I'll be at DS!
2006-10-06 10:53:35
83.   Marty
82 I hear where you are coming from, but I have to say, I disagree. Dodger fans have every right to voice negative opinions about what's going on with the team, even on an inning by inning basis. It's the nature of fandom and you should get used to it. What you are proposing sounds too much like the people at where everything is viewed through rose-colored glasses and they brook no contrary opinion. I really do not want to see every post here ended with GO DODGERS! or some such. I enjoy the varied opinion, especially the emotional ones, including yours. Calling for posters to restrict their feelings is never a good thing. Jon's rules keep it civil and that is all we need.
2006-10-06 11:05:39
84.   JT Dutch

"Anything short of a World Series is a travesty?"

... Point out where I said that, OK? Otherwise, stop putting words into my mouth.

"In a year like this which started with a bad roster, no manager and no GM? Please."

... The status of the team at the beginning of spring training is irrelevant. The status of the team at the beginning of spring training doesn't excuse the execrable mistakes this team has made in the first two games of the series.

"I won't keep arguing with fans whos emotions could their judgement on an inning by inning basis."

... Emotions don't "cloud" my judgment on anything. Boneheaded plays and boneheaded managerial moves "cloud" my judgment.

"But I will beg all of you to think before you post."

... Oh, you're right!! Why bother to point out the facts over the last two games?? Let's just all have a chorus of "The Dodgers are great -- Great, Great, Great!! I'll be at Dodger Stadium!" Now THAT's well thought out.

"they won 7 in a row to clinch a playoff spot"

... Beating last-place teams is slightly different than beating a Playoff team. The Dodgers could have gotten away with the mistakes they're making now against the Rockies and Giants.


"How the hell are we supposed to "take them to task" for being a playoff failure?"

... Hmmm, I don't know; perhaps by not shelling out the money to go and see them play until they prove they're worthy of it?

Would you have paid through the nose to see this team in mid-July? They're playing that way right now.

2006-10-06 11:14:08
85.   capdodger
84 Your answer is not acceptable. Not attending games will not make the team better. You still sound like a Yankee fan.
2006-10-06 11:14:08
86.   Greg S
83 Marty, I guess we do respectfully disagree. I understand that this is an open forum and I certainly don't want it to be nothing but rah rah Go Dodgers. I guess I just wish it were what it is at it's best; a place to speak inteligently about the team, good or bad. I have badmouthed players including Kemp when badmouthing Kemp was blasphemy. I don't discourage that. The ONLY thing I wish would disappear is bashing the team (or cheering them) unreasonably based on one at bat or one pitch. I can get that from any collection of uninformed drunks at a sports bar. This community is at it's best when it is full of informed opinions (positive or negative) stated eloquently by people who share some emotional involvement in this team.
2006-10-06 11:19:20
87.   Greg S
85 Agreed.
84. I said I WON'T argue with fans who judge all based on an inning or two. But enjoy the game tomorrow.
2006-10-06 11:23:27
88.   JT Dutch

"I said I WON'T argue with fans who judge all based on an inning or two.

... Hey, YOU were the one putting words in my mouth. But, have fun with that elitist mindset, OK?

"But enjoy the game tomorrow."

... You too.

2006-10-06 12:38:19
89.   JT Dutch

"Your answer is unacceptable. Not attending games will make the team better."

... Wow; what is is with the elitist crap here?? This place has changed quite a bit in four years.

And as for the "Yankee fan" comment, is that supposed to be some sort of putdown? Their fans would at least show some negative reaction to certain players (and certain managers) based on the mistakes they've made. What's wrong with that? How many beach balls and waves do you see at Yankee Stadium? How many more Yankee fans will actually follow the game? Tell me, oh knowledgable one.

But, hey; who has time for objectivity and honesty? "The Dodgers are Great -- Great, Great Great!!" There; can I be an elitist, too?

2006-10-06 12:40:47
90.   capdodger
89 Heh. You even misquoted me.
2006-10-06 12:54:45
91.   capdodger
89 There was a discussion in one of the threads this week about the nature of angst versus the nature of dispair and their impacts of the fandoms of sports teams. The (generally accepted) conclusion of it was that the Dodgers have recently provide a lot of angst to their fanbase. We wonder if they will win, will they make the playoffs, and how long will Nomar's arm stay in his socket. Other teams, such as the Historical Cubs, the recent DRays, Brewers, and Pirates almost completely lack angst. They peddle dispair. They contend rarely, and when they do, their fans are waiting for the other shoe to drop, which it always does.

Now, as for my Yankee fan comment, I likened you to them not on the basis of in park behavior. That's a red herring, and I think you know that. The Yankees have been a perrenially contending team, even though they haven't won it all in six years. They're a team that should cause neither angst nor dispair amonst their fanbase. Nevertheless, their fans are getting antsy. I'm calling you a yankee fan because you're calling for people to act like fans of a dispair-mongering team instead of fans of an angst-mongering team. This is, like the Yankee fan's antsiness, a an absurd overreaction.

2006-10-06 13:10:11
92.   Andrew Shimmin
I wonder if most of this isn't just age disparity. Fans who've been around long enough to see the team win a few series are going to be less angsty than ones who haven't. I was eight in '88, so I figure they've earned twenty years to repeat before I start getting angsty. But if I'd been two years younger, '88 wouldn't mean anything much to me. And it would mean I'd spent my whole cognitive life knowing teams that weren't very good, and didn't accomplish much.
2006-10-06 13:16:31
93.   capdodger
92 - Possibly. I'm two years younger, and I've suffer from a low-grade of angstiness.
2006-10-06 13:23:56
94.   Andrew Shimmin
Actually, I don't know if it came up in the thread, since I couldn't follow last night, but Vinny said something about how we'd all been talking about '88 too long, last night. So, even he's getting anxious about the drought. The years of feast are just around the corner, though. Even if this isn't the first, the sun is definitely breaking through the clouds.

To mix, what, three metaphors?

2006-10-06 13:26:06
95.   JT Dutch

"They contend rarely, and when they do, their fans are waiting for the other shoe to drop, which it always does."

... I would say that a team winning one playoff game in 18 years is pretty close to this description, but I'll play along.

"I'm calling you a yankee fan because you're calling for people to act like fans of a dispair-mongering team instead of fans of an angst-mongering team."

... I'm merely looking for people to be honest; honesty does not = "dispair". The Dodgers have played two poor games; in fact they have embarrassed themselves with frightful mental lapses, poor judgment, and (in at least two cases) laziness. If they continue to play in this manner, they will be three and out. It's disingenous to just ignore the past two games and say "Well, they won in '81 and '88, and Lima won in '04 at Dodger Stadium, therefore ... " -- that's weak.

This is not any sort of radical or disparaging comment when you actually step back and take an honest, objective look at this series. Despair would be saying before the series, "We don't have any hope", "they're too good for us", etc. I felt that the Dodgers had every right to expect to split in New York, and if not for the mental lapses and laziness, it's reasonable to say they would have. That they did not do what they were capable of, especially when it mattered most, is reason to criticize them.

2006-10-06 13:27:11
96.   capdodger
94 - Four if you want to count "around the corner".
2006-10-06 13:55:15
97.   Greg S
" I don't see the Dodgers receiving 26 brain transplants (one for Grits and one for each of the players)"

"This one will likely be a sweep"

"And the idiotic "two runners out at home on the same play".."

"this team has saved its worst for last. There's no way to spin it."

"they have embarrassed themselves"

"This is not any sort of radical or disparaging comment when you actually step back and take an honest, objective look at this series."

2006-10-06 14:00:21
98.   Andrew Shimmin
96- Well, but the first one isn't mixed, because you can't mix just one, right? Anyway, I'm not talking to anybody who doesn't agree with every last thing I say or think. So n'yah.
2006-10-06 14:16:37
99.   Greg S
98. ??? hmmm. Is that fair? I've enjoyed your posts all year but unless I'm being overly sensitive (possible) that seemed to be for me. Oh well. Guess I didn't make my point.
2006-10-06 14:17:34
100.   capdodger
95 - More red herrings, but I'll bite...

You didn't read what I said very carefully, and from the looks of it, you didn't read the thread I refered to either. The Dodgers dispair quotient isn't even of the same order of magnitude as the Cubs, pre-2004 Red Sox, SF Giants or any of the teams I mentioned. Eighteen years is a drop in the bucket compared to the wait those teams had or have. What have we got that compares with Steve Bartman, five outs away, or Bucky Dent and Bill Buckner. We have nothing. Those are "legends" are born of dispair. I'm not going to rehash that thread, you can go read it yourself.

You say you're looking for honesty? Great. What we have here is a flawed, streaky team. That's it. Because of the obvious flaws, no one has claimed that they'll be shoo-in world-beaters, and several have claimed that their no good at all. As for the second part of the description, it means that they'll play like boneheads for ten, and then reel of eleven straight. You're absolutely right that if they continue to play in the manner that they have, a third loss is probable (ignoring that the Met's haven't been much better, and seem quite capable of coughing away a game if they continue and the Dodgers would accept it).

The nice thing about baseball is that there is no carryover from the previous night. If I leave lots of paperwork on my desk at the end of the day, I have to do it the next. If the Dodgers lose a game by a score of 9-0, when they come back the next day they can win 1-0. They count the same. With a team as streaky as this team, there is no telling what they will do. The truth is, they could just as easily lose one as win eleven straight (longshot, I know).

So you say you want honesty? How about acknowlegding that the comments of 77 are disparing?

My beef with 77 is that your brand of "honesty" seems to ignore the fact that this team managed to make the playoffs; an accomplishment not matched by 22 other teams. You discount the importance of that. You cant win if you're golfing.

Your brand of "honesty" discounts the fact that the franchise has, while not winning championships since '88, been in the top half of the table nearly year-in year-out. We're not Devil Rays fans. We don't have strings of years where there's no chance of them making the playoffs. To act like we are and not show up stirkes me as bizzare.

You brand of "honesty" becomes indignant that others won't hold some sort of an intervention to free the Dodgers of their addiction to not winning the WS. No, thank you, I'll pass.

What we've seen are two bad games against a (statistically) superior opponent. This wasn't even a year in which the Dodgers were supposed to contend. Ask a DRay's or Nats fan if they would switch places with you, and I think you'd find that they would (heck, ask a DRay or Nat). To act like that is nothing is dishonest.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2006-10-06 14:25:28
101.   Greg S
100. Wow. Really well said. I only wish it had been said in a more active thread!
2006-10-06 14:44:36
102.   capdodger
101 Thanks, it's the last I'll say on it due to HOA Regs 2 and 4.
2006-10-06 14:47:06
103.   Andrew Shimmin
99- I didn't like your telling NBP to go away, a few threads back. I think you've been argumentative in the last few threads in a way that hasn't been called for. Everbody's skin is inclined to get a little thin down 0-2, so, I'm probably discounting how thin mine is, but the things that I read as board bashing in 78 prickled me up and down.

A lot of us could stand to mensch up a bit. Me included. Sorry about the sniping.

2006-10-06 14:58:40
104.   capdodger
103 Eh, if the Dodgers don't put together a run here we can all go back to hot-stove style discussions.

Or we can migrate over to ScreenJam.

2006-10-06 15:06:54
105.   Greg S
Well I realize that it has been seen that way and for that I feel badly and apologize. I don't mean to board bash but comments like "we suck" "Grady is an idiot" just seem so out of place in a forum that has been so analytical all year long.
I'm not trying to dismiss real opinions, just frustrated hatred of our team that is posing as an opinion.
You're right in that 0-2 has us all a little grumpy. Lucklily, I'll be at the games this weekend so I won't be around. I look forward to a better atmosphere here that we can all enjoy. Seems to have already come around.
2006-10-06 15:15:27
106.   Andrew Shimmin
104- I'm actually looking forward to the return to hot-stoving. I've got a GREAT idea about realizing my Repko, Byrnes, Encarnacion dream outfield, that I've put off posting because people seem so wrapped up in this playoff stuff. I mean, yeah, it's the playoffs, but, c'mon; do they really matter?

105- I had an offer to take a very attractive young woman to a movie on Monday, but pushed it back. That's game five!

2006-10-06 15:18:26
107.   JT Dutch

You have acknowledged one of the points I was trying to make -- that being they have played poorly and that if they continue to play this way they will likely be swept.

As for "Despair Quotient", all the teams you mentioned have more playoff victories than the Dodgers over the last 18 years, and that's even after throwing out the BoSox's 2004 championship.

I would go so far as to say this isn't the same team from July's awful streak. They have made a few moves since then, and they have stabilized areas of their team since then. I would also say that I feel this team is better than you're making them out to be. They went 41-19 in their last sixty games; you don't "fluke" your way to 41-19 ... in fact, I don't know if there's ever been a team that has reeled off that type of 60-game stretch and missed the playoffs (maybe the 1973 Dodgers, but they would have been in via Wild Card if today's standards were in place).

The Dodgers deserve to be where they are; your notion of "This wasn't even a year in which the Dodgers were supposed to contend" lacks justification. Not supposed to contend by who's standards? Yours? Jayson Stark's? Joe Morgan's? To say that I must change places with a Nats fan or a D-Rays fan to gain perspective is preposterous. The Dodgers have a better squad than these teams. I expect better results from a better squad. This is dishonest?

The Dodgers have made mental blunders and errors of omission. I feel that they are better than that, and I also feel that, given the situation, there's no excuse for these types of errors.

I did not expect Grits to look at his pitchers available with the score tied in Game 1 -- and select the pitcher with the second-half ERA of 6.25 and the September ERA of 6.83, as well as being the one pitcher on the staff least-suited to relief duty. I thought he was a better manager than this.

I don't know why you keep making up this notion that "nothing but a World Title will do" in reference to me. I'm not saying that at all. I'm not saying they're "shoo-in World beaters", either. I'm saying that they're not playing to their potential. They have a good enough team to be competitive in this series; I don't know of many who predicted this series to go three-and-out, and that's where it's headed.

I hope the Dodgers come back and win this thing. It would be fantastic. But, they will have to make a complete turnaround from the sloppy ball they've played thus far. Can they do this? I don't see it happening. The Mets are not as forgiving as the Nats, D-Backs, Giants, or Rockies.

2006-10-07 01:23:25
108.   capdodger
Last I'm saying on this. For real this time....

I must have missed the Nats/expos, DRays and Brewers trips to the playoffs in the last 18 years. Silly me. And the Red Sox. Sure they won a raft of playoff games between 1988 and 2004 (and I very clearly stated pre-2004 RS), but do you know any Red Sox fans? (Probably not, since you thought Grady Little could handle a playoff pitching staff.) It's cliché for sure, but they were long-suffering. Hell, they still whine about it. The Dodgers don't have multiple generations of fans for whom whining about losing - large, small, late and early- is an ingrained trait.

My suggestion was not that you switch places with them, as I wouldn't wish being a DRays fan on you. My suggestion was that you realize that there are fans whose teams are eliminated not on October 7th, or even September 7th, but on April 7th. They might not be out mathematically, but they play like this year's Dodgers on a bad day every day. This is a better team than that, but as you and I agree on, this is a flawed team. They'll have bad days, and when they come against good teams, they'll lead to losses. If you're not expecting this, which - since you say you expect better - it seems you weren't, means you were fooling yourself. This team lost to the bilge-scum of the National Lg. and then split with the Mets. That's what it means to be a good, flawed team. Fly high and crash hard. You're being dishonest to yourself if you expect only former while saying you recognize their flaws, or if you expect only the latter while saying they're a good team.

I don't like predictions - they have a way of coming back to bite you, especially if you ignore the fact that teams can change composition. Others aren't so fearful, however. Go back to the beginning of this season in the archives of this site, of 6-4-2, DodgerMath, and others. No one gave this team much of a chance to make the playoffs. The general consensus was a 79-85-win team if they stayed healthy. That was also the CW in most of the baseball press. Keep in mind that all of these predictions were made before Maddux, Anderson, Lugo, and Betemit. A creative google will provide sufficient evidence of these predictions. As for the standards that were applied in these predictions, they vary wildly. Nevertheless we can draw useful information from the fact that they were precise (low deviation) if not accurate (correct) in their clustering around .500. Mostly, we can conclude that there existed a consensus that this was where predictors expected the team to end up.

Furthermore, if you'd just said what you'd said in 107 instead of what you said in 77, it's unlikely that you'd have drawn much argument from me or anyone else. That's not what you said, though. The words you wrote could very easily imply that for you nothing but a title will do. Consider the first and last sentence of 77:
The Dodgers haven't come close to winning a Playoff series in 18 years -- and, I'm frankly surprised that a group of fans on this site who call themselves hard-core won't take them to task
...hold them accountable for what they have (or haven't) done.
You can't just throw around 1988 or the years since 1988 and expect people to think of it as a Playoff Series Win. It was the World Series. It was a Championship! Four teams went into the Playoff room then, with three bullets in the revolver, and one team stepped out. Expecting me, or any other Dodger fan to think of that as a just a playoff series win (which back then meant at least an NL pennant) is a huge, rather disingenuous, rhetorical trick. Given that, the questioning in the same breath of our fan-cred by implying that if we didn't cut off our noses to spite our faces then we were somehow derelict in our fan-duty was downright insulting.

2006-10-07 14:51:45
109.   adamclyde
89 no one will read this post, since it is a few days old, but in response... I was at Yankee stadium a month or so ago. I saw both beach balls and the wave. Don't hold yankee fans in any higher regard than any other team. They are as obnoxious as any other team's fan (in my opinion, much more so, but that could be because I've been surrounded by them for the past decade).

Comment status: comments have been closed. Baseball Toaster is now out of business.