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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

I Once Was Lost, But Now I'm Found
2006-10-18 11:03
by Jon Weisman

Ladies and gentlemen: Jeff Weaver.

Yet another mediocre pitcher who is good sometimes and bad other times ... and who picked just the right Octobers to be both as far as the St. Louis Cardinals are concerned.

Next year's October savior: Odalis Perez?

Comments (72)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2006-10-18 12:00:34
1.   LAT
Next year's October savior: Odalis Perez?

Gonna have to get traded first becasue KC ain't playin baseball in Oct. '07. (or '08 or '09).

BTW will Tom Cruise be weighing in on Jeff Weaver's use of ADD meds?

2006-10-18 12:04:26
2.   D4P
Does the use of ADD meds brings the user's attention-span abilities back to a normal level, or to a greater level than that of those not taking the meds...?
2006-10-18 12:04:39
3.   paranoidandroid
I was wondering if the Dodgers would make a play for him in June or July, he indeed pitched well for us at times. I'm not surprised by his success, he has great movement and can hit his spots when he is on. I wonder if he'll be a guy who settles down and gets consistent once he is given a long term contract, if he ever gets one. I'd take him back.
2006-10-18 12:07:00
4.   paranoidandroid
I really thought he'd found a home with us, but he wanted more money and years than we were willing to give. I don't think he was offered the same 3 year deal as Perez and Penny though. Didn't his agent offer the Dodgers a one or two year deal that Colletti rejected before he signed with Anaheim?
2006-10-18 12:08:48
5.   Jon Weisman
1 - Based on Weaver's wanderings, I don't see why I'd expect Odalis to be in KC forever.
2006-10-18 12:28:05
6.   LAT
I just don't see KC DFA-ing anyone. A DFA from KC is also known as retirement or a minor league assignment.

I really shouldn't make these jokes at KC's expense. I was making them about the Tigers three short years ago.

As for Weaver and the ADD meds, I would have expected someone to have figured it out much sooner. ADD meds, e.g. Ritalin, Concerta, Atarol, are all really just speed. In someone who is ADD the speed has a reverse effect. For an unknown reason it slows the users functioning enough to allow them to focus and organize their thoughts over a sustained period of time. Most importantly, it reduces distractibility. But with the alleged use and availability of "greenies" in baseball I would have thought Jeff or someone would have made the connection sooner.

2006-10-18 12:57:18
7.   Xeifrank
What day does the W.S. begin on? One off day after the last game of the NLCS? I'd think that if the Cards win in 6, Suppan would be the opening starter and if the Cards win in 7 then either Reyes or Weaver. I don't want to think about what happens if the Mets win... well, because I don't want to. vr, Xei
2006-10-18 13:00:01
8.   Xeifrank
7. Saturday? That's quite a layoff for the Tigers. vr, Xei
2006-10-18 13:01:04
9.   gibsonhobbs88
For Jeff's sake, it probably was a godsend that he landed in St. Louis where someone was keen enough to see the signs of ADD. I'm happy for him, he's had such a rocky career, to see him have some playoff success this year probably washes the bad taste of his Angels experience in the early part of this year.

As to the previous thread, I have mostly happy memories when I think of "Ferdie". Fernando was great and some games it seemed to win the game all by himself, fielding, pitching and hitting. I was at game 3 of the 81 World Series where I saw him gut it out without his best stuff and beat the Yankees 5-4, ending the game striking out new Cubs manager, Lou Pinella. I felt bad that he couldn't finish the year due to injury in 1988 due to arm injury. I remember seeing him and Gibby shake hands in the dugout when we clinched the NL pennant. "Oh memories".

2006-10-18 13:17:48
10.   ToyCannon
I'm not buying the ADD diagnosis as the reason for his current success. The man has had success in the past for several months at a time. He's just having his Tomko April in Sept/Oct. Kudo's to him, always liked his style, reminded me of Clint Eastwood on the pitching rubber.
2006-10-18 13:23:48
11.   dzzrtRatt
8 Well, I guess they could start sooner, but the first couple games might be forfeits.

I'm intrigued by this "Mets' meltdown" meme. The NLCS was tied 2-2. Whichever team won last night's game would gain an edge. It was much more important for St. Louis to win it because they were leaving their home park. I guess the assumption is that St. Louis goes into NY tonight with a commanding edge because they've got Carpenter and all the Mets have is Maine. But although Carpenter is the superior pitcher, his starting tonight hardly guarantees St. Louis a victory, anymore than Perez's start Monday guaranteed the Mets' defeat.

In short, the "Met meltdown" is a bunch of hype. Last night, all we had was a good, tight game involving two typically tired postseason teams. Any team with as much power as the Mets, that can turn around a game at any time with a couple swings, is not out of it, especially if all they have to do is win two at home.

2006-10-18 13:39:56
12.   LAT
Hey Cannon. While I tend to agree its probably just a good stretch for Weaver, the only reason I give some credence to the ADD diagnosis is the way Weaver used to blow up. He would pitch great for 4-5 innings and then have a terrible inning, especially if something distracted him (e.g. error, stolen base etc.). After that he had a difficult time regaining his focus. That hasn't happened to him in the post season. Even last night he held it together after the doubles by Green and Valentine. On the other hand, the whole thing could be psycho-semantic. He believes the ADD medicine is helping so it is.

Whatever works. But one undeniable truth he should have learned by now, no matter what Scott Boras says or how much money is on the table, STAY in the NL. To further the Clint reference: "A man has got to know his limitations."

2006-10-18 13:51:48
13.   caseybarker
Derek Lowe has ADD, too, doesn't he?
2006-10-18 13:53:24
14.   ToyCannon
The US has ADD
2006-10-18 14:04:33
15.   Jon Weisman
12 - That still happens ... La Russa just takes him out sooner. Tracy would milk Weaver for all he was worth, ignoring warning signs as Weaver went past the sixth.

Weaver's time in Anaheim was the aberration, when he was just getting pounded in the early innings.

2006-10-18 14:07:25
16.   Uncle Miltie
A good article for the Griddle
2006-10-18 14:08:31
17.   LAT
While ADD is extremely over-diagnosed in this country, I wonder whether the technological revolution is adding to it. Our kids (and adults) are constantly stimulated, whether its 300 TV stations, DVD players in our cars, or and cell phones in our hands 24/7. Do we know how to sit quietly and think for an hour without an IPOD or problem solve without a crackberry. Does the onslaught of constant stimulation i.e. internet, PS-2 and Syms, make us addicts who are unable to focus on anything unless its in motion or changes every few seconds? If its not shiny and glossy will it hold our attention? I honestly wonder whether the next generation will be able to think for itself. That being said, I'm sure my parents wondered the same thing about my generation and so on and so on.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

2006-10-18 14:43:52
18.   Marty
Didn't the league outlaw greenies? If they allow ADD drugs, and they have about the same effect, I predict a LOT of ADD diagnosis in the near future.
2006-10-18 14:44:47
19.   Marty
I'm not addicted to my Blackberry!

(Sent from my Blackberry)

2006-10-18 14:51:11
20.   Andrew Shimmin
There's so much about this story that's great, it's hard to pick a best part. I wonder if I have any friends who, if called and told, "We're going for a 70 mile drive, right now; bring your machete," would do anything but hang up.

2006-10-18 14:56:49
21.   LAT
Signs you are addicted to your Blackberry:

1. You speak in sylables expecting someone else to complete your words;

2. Your thumbs are bigger than your bicepts; and

3. You know your high brick-breaker score by heart.

2006-10-18 14:59:31
22.   D4P
Mr Jones...opened the door holding a knife for protection...A fight broke out during which Mr Jones was disarmed...and cut with the knife"

Yet another homeowner injured by their own weapon. No doubt he would have been shot with his own gun, if he had had one...

2006-10-18 15:05:16
23.   Andrew Shimmin
22- This is an hypothesis in need of testing. Go get a friend, and a machete, and start knocking on doors. I'll wait here.
2006-10-18 15:07:00
24.   D4P
Well, there's not much chance of your gun actually shooting anyone, since you probably bought it at Walmart...
2006-10-18 15:10:06
25.   ToyCannon
Does anyone remember that Tomko was the pitcher of the month in April?
2006-10-18 15:11:45
26.   D4P
More to the point, did anyone actually know that in the first place...?
2006-10-18 15:12:23
27.   FirstMohican
I don't remember pitchers who excel when games aren't that important. September - when 1 win = 1.2 wins - is what I remember.
2006-10-18 15:12:46
28.   Andrew Shimmin
24- Just to be clear, my theory was, if you started knocking on doors out there, you wouldn't make it all the way back here. Your neighbors have guns. Lots of them. I wasn't threatening to shoot you. I'm a delegator, not a fighter.
2006-10-18 15:15:34
29.   D4P
Your neighbors have guns. Lots of them

Seeing as how I currently live in North Kakalaki, that's probably a good assumption, although I live in a very "peace-loving" neighborhood with lots of anti-war signs and "Who Would Jesus Bomb" bumperstickers

2006-10-18 15:18:32
30.   LAT
Actually there is a good lesson in there about identity safety on the web. Of course, most of us could find each other on any given summer evening. Just look for someone who:

1. is wearing a tattered Home Depot shirt;

2. is yelling at Grady to play Loney even though Nomar is 5-5;

3. is using VORP to heckle the opposing team.

(Apparently, i'm into lists today)

2006-10-18 15:18:44
31.   ToyCannon
Strange you should say that. If Tomko had gone 3-1 in April we never would have made the playoffs.
2006-10-18 15:20:11
32.   ToyCannon
Don't forget the yelling at Nomar as he rounds 3b for swinging on the 1st pitch.
2006-10-18 15:21:00
33.   regfairfield
30 I like to hurl the ol' "I find your OPS lacking for a corner outfielder" taunt at Garrett Anderson. It really angries up his blood.
2006-10-18 15:21:35
34.   caseybarker
24 Ironic comment considering that the premise of Michael Moore's movie "Bowling..." was that WalMart bore responsibility for the shootings at the school.
2006-10-18 15:23:47
35.   Andrew Shimmin
I think all DT machete owners should have to self-identify, or I will do it for them.
2006-10-18 15:24:04
36.   Marty
That would be a tattered TEAM Depot shirt.
2006-10-18 15:25:23
37.   Marty
I own no machete. But I do own a shotgun. Wait, actually I do own a machete. My gardener left his in my yard one day.
2006-10-18 15:26:24
38.   D4P
If I remember correctly, it was bullets bought at K-Mart, not guns bought at Walmart...
2006-10-18 15:32:08
39.   Andrew Shimmin
And that was the last time anyone asked Marty for his secret mulch formula.
2006-10-18 15:33:06
40.   caseybarker
You're correct. Maybe if they had bought the guns at Walmart...

"You've failed me for the last time, memory..."

2006-10-18 15:36:06
41.   D4P
Heh heh, not likely...
2006-10-18 15:36:37
42.   LAT
38. As I recall it was K-Mart. That part was just before he took on Moses.
2006-10-18 15:43:24
43.   D4P
Moses didn't look too good in that movie.

BTW: Why do Americans shoot each other so much...?

2006-10-18 15:47:43
44.   Jon Weisman
Weirdest thread of the year?
2006-10-18 15:48:53
45.   LAT
43. No he didn't look to good. But Dick Clark sure looked better back then.

Why do Americans shoot each other so much...?

Wasn't that the point of the movie. I didn't agree with Moore but I don't know the answer.

2006-10-18 15:51:14
46.   Andrew Shimmin
43- Just to watch them die.


2006-10-18 15:52:41
47.   Marty
Because they need killing.
2006-10-18 15:54:50
48.   LAT
ADD to Blackberries to machetes to gun control to Moses.

I dunno, seems just like any other thread ;-)

At least its not porn stars, aspargus and pee. That was so last year.

2006-10-18 15:55:53
49.   caseybarker
Because of a perverted interpretation of the American dream. And because of hate.

Funny article, though. I wonder if its been a topic of discussion in the chat room where the alleged web rage took place.

2006-10-18 15:56:40
50.   caseybarker
"I require... Macaroni Pictures"
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2006-10-18 15:58:54
51.   D4P
I didn't agree with Moore but I don't know the answer

What didn't you agree with? I don't recall that he ever really came to a conclusion. There were a lot of explanations thrown out by various people in the movie, but each seemed problematic...

2006-10-18 15:59:40
52.   LAT

Nah. If it was just hate Bob would have killed Frank Robinson. I would have killed Tom Cruise and everyone here would have killed Julio Lugo.

2006-10-18 16:07:01
53.   Marty
I grew up in a "gun" family and spent way too much time on the firing range as a kid. My dad loved to take the 30 .06 out on July 4th and shoot a round into the ground in the backyard, just for the noise. It drove my mother nuts. That's the kind of hijinks you get when your dad is an "old breed" Marine.

Now I hate guns, even though I still own one. It's more of an heirloom since I own no ammunition and haven't fired it for 30 years.

2006-10-18 16:12:58
54.   franklin
I checked my firearm at the door...

Jeff Weaver on ADD meds? Is that legit? I must have been too distracted to notice that news item.

Weaver did more or less match this three game run in August with 5 ER in 18 2/3 inn. The Cards beat the Reds in two of them back when they were fighting for the Central lead. But he also strung together some other three game nightmares in the NL: 14 ER in 12 inn and 12 ER in 14 2/3 inn.

Variability in Weaver's season/postseason performances = support for Kayaker7's tirade the other day about the unreliable forecasting power of a quantitative approach?

(...flees site as mob approaches with pitchforks and firearms(?) chanting 'small sample size').

2006-10-18 16:17:16
55.   Daniel Zappala
I once was lost, but now am found.

I'm surprised no one has pointed this out yet. You're all a bunch of heathens.

2006-10-18 16:18:26
56.   Marty
We may be heathens, but we're armed heathens
2006-10-18 16:19:24
57.   ToyCannon
Hey, Jon updated the roster and salaries. Must have done while I was gone. Seems strange to see Wilson Valdez on the 40 man. Talk about a dime a dozen player.
2006-10-18 16:19:26
58.   LAT
I'll try and respond without running afoul of rule #5.

I didn't really buy the we have more murders because guns are so accessible argument. IMO, Columbine and most of the killings depicted would have happened anyway. Other societies have as many guns per capital and the murder rate isn't nearly as high. I don't know why our murder rate is so high. As for the movie, I didn't care for the way he ambushed certain people. Granted I have no problem taking on the NRA if you are anti-gun but embarrassing a feeble old man suffering from Alzheimer's because he is the former spokesperson of the NRA detracted from Moore's credibility. Go after the current NRA spokesperson. I had less probelm with going after Dick Clark becasue he is the current owner of the resturant in question. ANd I had no probelm with going to K-Mart's headquaters.

There were things I very much agreed with. His segment on the media's sensationalism of every story no matter how small so they can sell more papers, airtime or commercials was right on the money. Words I never though I'd udder, "I was very impressed by and fully agree with Marylyn Manson."

It is a thought provoking movie and raises issues which obviously need to be addressed. I just don't always agree with his approach or conclusions.

2006-10-18 16:23:23
59.   Jon Weisman
55 - Hey, who said it was an exact quote? :)

I'm sure somebody sings it my way.

2006-10-18 16:23:37
60.   LAT
Words I never though I'd udder

Now that is embarrassing. Climb under the cow and speak.

2006-10-18 16:29:05
61.   LAT
59. I'll bet most people sing it your way. IIRC, sometime ago we had a discussion where people confessed their messed up versions of lyrics. Mine was a friend who one day sang "I want a new truck." It was Hewey Lewis' "I want a new drug." We still havn't let him live it down.

(That was until I wrote "Words I never though I'd udder.")

2006-10-18 16:34:05
62.   ToyCannon
Never ask a lawyer for a an answer unless your prepared to read the brief:)
2006-10-18 16:43:24
63.   D4P
Other societies have as many guns per capital and the murder rate isn't nearly as high

Doesn't he make this point in the movie? IIRC, he pretty much debunked every hypothesis that was put forth. Someone would say "Americans shoot each other so often because of X," then he would show other countries with X that don't shoot each other nearly as often as Americans do.

embarrassing a feeble old man suffering from Alzheimer's because he is the former spokesperson of the NRA

He may have been the former spokesman, but he was still traveling around to NRA events and even went to one in Colorado right after Columbine. He's not some feeble invalid who never leaves the house. Moore questioned him about his decision to promote the NRA in the place where a high school shooting had just occurred. That seemed legitimate to me.

2006-10-18 16:51:08
64.   Marty
61 There's a bathroom on the right.
2006-10-18 16:52:49
65.   SteveLee
Questioning Heston seemed appropriate to me also. The questions were legitimate considering Heston's actions after Columbine. At the time, I think he was still the head of the NRA, not just a spokesperson.

Before I saw the the movie, I thought it was strictly anti-gun but by the end I thought Moore's point had more to do with the media and how it sensationalizes every single story rather than a it being strictly about guns and gun contorl.

2006-10-18 17:02:46
66.   Jim Hitchcock
For a great (read schizoid) double billing, rent BFC and `The Departed'...
2006-10-18 17:04:49
67.   Linkmeister
Is this the game thread?

Not that I'm fixated on baseball or anything.

2006-10-18 17:06:21
68.   das411
Anybody know if the Mets have decided to hold Darren Oliver out of this one just in case they manage to win tonight?
2006-10-18 17:07:08
69.   FirstMohican
I enjoy most of Moore's work, but I didn't care for the questioning of Heston. I'm not saying it takes away from his credibility, it just seemed pointless. What did he hope Heston would say? Sorry? Maybe he wanted to show viewers Heston's reaction.
2006-10-18 17:12:30
70.   Jon Weisman
Game thraed is open.
2006-10-18 17:12:54
71.   Jon Weisman
Game thread is open, too. I'm udderly embarrassed.
2006-10-18 17:14:30
72.   LAT

Columbine happened 5/20/99
Heston discloses illness in Aug 2002.
Movie comes out in 2002.

Heston's health seemes to decline signifigantly between 1999 and 2002. To me it would be like going after Dick Clark today. (i.e. post-stroke). I don't disagree that it was in bad taste for Heston to go to Columbine so soon after the tragedy to promote his cause but Moore should have focused on that time not three years later after the ravages of Alzheimers. And the way Moore went about the interview was equally in bad taste.

Two interesting facts I found when looking for info on Heston and the movie:

"On 18 June 1968, Heston appeared on "The Joey Bishop Show" (1967) and, along with Gregory Peck, James Stewart and Kirk Douglas, called for gun controls following the assassination of Senator Robert F. Kennedy. Ironically, thirty years later, Heston was elected President of the National Rifle Association of America (NRA) and campaigned against gun control."


"After two years of trying to get an interview with Charlton Heston, Michael Moore was going to give up. Showing up at Heston's house was totally spontaneous - on the way to the airport, a staff member suggested that they find his house using a star map."

As for your other point we don't really disagree. I just felt that he was talking out of both sides of his mouth. While he did distinguish us from other countries with easy access to guns, much of the content of the movie came back to the availablty of guns.

Finally, did Michael Moore ever save the Planet from a society of murderous apes? Did he ever discover that Soylent Green was really people? Did he ever part the Red Sea or win a chariot race? I think not! :-)

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