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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Pierre Officially Joins the Go-Go Dodgers
2006-11-22 14:08
by Jon Weisman

Juan Pierre signed his Dodger contract today.

Other recent posts on Dodger Thoughts:
Dodgers Fire Two Trainers
Pierre Debate Isn't About Scouts vs. Stats
We Were All Goofus
Feed the Poor

Update: (This goes with the "We Were All Goofus" post.) From David Pinto at Baseball Musings:

Just how smart do the Cardinals look right now? In February 2004 they sign Albert Pujols to a seven-year, $100 million dollar contract. Otherwise, he'd be a free agent right now. Can you imagine what kind of money Albert would command in this class? Ten years, $300 million?

And just how foolish were the Fish not to try to sign Miguel Cabrera to a long term deal? When he's a free agent at the end of 2009, how much money will he command? If the Marlins offered him a 10-year, $80 million dollar contract last winter, do you think he would have taken it? Do you then think in this market, the Marlins could trade him at any time for loads of prospects? With this market Miguel would be silly to sign anything longer than three years. And he won't be a Marlins in 2010 at the peak age of 27. He'll eclipse A-Rod's contract.

Comments (179)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2006-11-22 14:20:15
1.   trainwreck
2006-11-22 14:22:17
2.   trainwreck
If forced to choose, would people rather have Matthews for 5 years at 50 million or the deal we gave to Juan?
2006-11-22 14:26:40
3.   Xeifrank
2. is that an inclusive or exclusive OR?
vr, Xei
2006-11-22 14:27:00
4.   sgreen23
Do you think it's a coincidence that the Dodgers are revamping their training department and it two days for Pierre to complete his exam?
2006-11-22 14:27:19
5.   greenchris
Pierre...his production is consistent plus he's younger. Although I'm not happy with the contract.
2006-11-22 14:28:34
6.   saltcreek
2 I would rather have Juan...but keep in mind I would rather have Repko or Lofton starting in CF over Pierre...or anyone really. At least Pierre is a type B free agent, so we dont lose a 1st rounder. Plus I think in 3 years Matthews will no longer be a Cf but a below average corner.
2006-11-22 14:29:41
7.   Jon Weisman
I don't think trainers give physicals, do they? I would think doctors would.
2006-11-22 14:30:59
8.   saltcreek
Trainers dont give physicals
2006-11-22 14:35:04
9.   sgreen23
Any ideas on why it took so long to officially announce the signing?
2006-11-22 14:36:12
10.   trainwreck
2006-11-22 14:38:17
11.   Jon Weisman
9 - Things take time. I don't think there's any undercurrent here. The story leaked before the physical and/or before the contracts were prepared, Pierre perhaps needed a day to get to Los Angeles, etc. It's of no moment.
2006-11-22 14:43:23
12.   bhsportsguy
This was a reaction to J.D. Drew opting out and Soriano going for his big contract.

Ned was never going to with the outfield he had currently constructed nor did he want another stop gap like Lofton because next year's market may have less available.

We will never know if Drew remained, would Nomar and Pierre be Dodgers today but Ned now has 2 players who apparently want to play here versus one talented if exasperating player who decided to go for the money.

2006-11-22 14:43:55
13.   saltcreek
9 Maybe Ned had second thoughts about giving a type B free agent who scored lower on the Elias
Rankings than Ryan Church 9 million dollers a year.
2006-11-22 14:45:15
14.   FirstMohican
12 - Pierre & Nomar didn't "go for the money"?
2006-11-22 14:47:38
15.   Xeifrank
12. Pierre went for the money too. I haven't heard anything about Drew not wanting to be here, perhaps I missed that. I just assUmed that Drew (rightfully) thought he could do better than 3 years $33mil and that he would be open to the Dodgers matching the best offer.
vr, Xei
2006-11-22 14:53:55
16.   Daniel B
Did anyone see this?

Tellement longtemps et bon débarras M. gagne!

2006-11-22 14:54:19
17.   Daniel B
by the way, the little blurb is near the bottom.
2006-11-22 14:56:11
18.   Greg Brock
I can't believe that we couldn't trade something, anything, for a better player than Juan Pierre.

This is mind boggling. 45 million dollars for this guy. Joke.

2006-11-22 15:01:59
19.   Steve
But think about it this way. The only apparent defensible criteria for this signing is:

1) he's a good man
2) he's got a good attitude
3) he's willing to play every day
4) he "wants" to play here (really, twist his arm)

Brock, you're going to be a millionaire. So what's the problem?

2006-11-22 15:03:42
20.   Greg Brock
19 I can walk more than Juan Pierre.
2006-11-22 15:05:58
21.   trainwreck
They have not seen Greg during a UCLA football game.
2006-11-22 15:07:02
22.   GIDP
As I try to come to terms with Pierre & the Dodgers coming to terms, I have a question regarding the use of stats. With commentors like Xeifrank stating that empirical evidence shows Pierre is terrible, stolen bases mean squat, and speed at the top actually distracts a hitter, can an argument be made that the construction of a lineup has an impact on this?

I would think that the effect of stolen bases is based on its average value, i.e. a bad base stealer running in front of a strikeout king like Adam Dunn where a CS negates his power and a SO could result in a DP, taken into consideration with a good base stealer in front of a high-average contact hitter. I wonder if, in the case of the Dodgers, a Furcal/Pierre/Garciaparra lineup maximizes the value of speed because Pierre and Nomar hardly SO and make a lot of contact. The Furcal/Lofton/Garciaparra signings last year were widely criticized yet yielded a very productive offense. At any rate, are there any studies that look at specific offensive strategies?

Also, it's a bit irksome to keep hearing about Pierre's subpar on-base ability when his career OBP is .350. Shouldn't this be taken into consideration, along with last year's .330? Often stated here is the belief that different people value different stats, but stats vary depending on how you break them down.

I'm not exactly thrilled with this signing, but if there is a silver lining, it's the avatar Slappy McPutout. I may even consider Pierre my favorite player because I cannot say this without laughing. That, and I'm a masochist.

2006-11-22 15:08:01
23.   Greg Brock
Barry Zito is going to be offered a brazillion dollars.

Zito to the Orioles: 7 years, 44 brazillion dollars, and San Tropez

2006-11-22 15:08:48
24.   trainwreck
I think we learned that your best hitter should be in the number 2 spot, so regardless of all that other stuff Pierre should not be hitting 2nd.
2006-11-22 15:08:52
25.   Bob Timmermann
I fear that Greg Brock sits two rows in front of me at the Rose Bowl and wears a UCLA visor and throws it down in disgust Steve Spurrier-style several times a game.

I judge the progress of the game by counting the visor tosses by that one fan.

2006-11-22 15:09:10
26.   bhsportsguy
Really, are we going to lose the NL West for the next 5 years because Juan Pierre is playing.

I don't begrudge anyone for going for the money and my comment did not imply that Nomar nor Juan signed for less than what they wanted to play in L.A.

Right now, the only parts that I would ask for from the Dodgers would Chad, Kemp, LaRoche, maybe Loney and Elbert.

Would you trade those guys for any outfielder similar to Pierre. No one is taking Abreu, Hu, Meloan or guys like that for established MLB players.

Pierre cost the Dodgers some money (which I just don't think is an issue), no draft picks and a 25-man roster spot for the next 5 years.

He is the anti-Drew, anti-Bradley, no injuries, no outside issues but lacking big time in many of their skills. But Ned has decided that for him and the club those first 2 things outweigh that kind of talent. We will have to see how it comes out.

2006-11-22 15:10:42
27.   Greg Brock
25 I'm a very polite person at games. I hate people who ruin other people's experiences. My only action at sporting events is catching and popping beach balls.

At home...not so much.

2006-11-22 15:15:02
28.   caseybarker
2006-11-22 15:17:06
29.   Andrew Shimmin
26- No, that'll be because Carlos Quentin, Justin Upton, Stephen Drew, Conor Jackson, and Brandon Webb. Pierre will just be the salt in the wounds.
2006-11-22 15:18:38
30.   Andrew Shimmin
29, reattempted:

Really, are we going to lose the NL West for the next 5 years because Juan Pierre is playing[?]

No, that'll be because Carlos Quentin, Justin Upton, Stephen Drew, Conor Jackson, and Brandon Webb are playing. Pierre will just be the salt in the wounds.

2006-11-22 15:19:03
31.   trainwreck
I thought you would be the guy wearing 5 dump dorrel t-shirts. Wrapping them around your arms and such.
2006-11-22 15:19:17
32.   Greg Brock
He's the anti Drew

And that's good because why again?

2006-11-22 15:20:21
33.   Bob Timmermann

So you weren't the guy who kept screaming to install Matt Ware at QB and have UCLA run the option?

An option offense in football is the equivalent of a stolen base dependent offense in baseball.

2006-11-22 15:21:00
34.   DodgerDodger
Great Insider blog entry by Keith Law:

"It's made all the worse by its combined ripple effect with the decision to re-up Nomar Garciaparra for two years, leaving just two lineup spots (left and right field) for Andre Ethier, Matt Kemp and James Loney... All three of these players are likely to outproduce Pierre right now given the same kind of playing time, and their combined salaries will barely top 10 percent of what Pierre himself will make this year. We've seen some surprisingly high deals so far this offseason, but this is the first one that's certifiable."

2006-11-22 15:22:26
35.   Steve
If everyone concedes that winning the west will have nothing to do with Juan Pierre, I will be happy to concede its antithesis.
2006-11-22 15:22:46
36.   trainwreck
Chris Young, Carlos Gonzalez, Garret Mock, Dustin Nippert, Alberto Callaspo, Micah Owings, Matt Torra, Max Scherzer...

Wait till they start trading players for pitching.

2006-11-22 15:23:13
37.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Today's Wall Street Journal carried a story comparing the midterm election projections of the top polling outfits.
I mention this, because it would be both enlightening and fun to re-read our predictions over past moves made by the Dodgers...
And then I discover the Toaster does not archive past comments. (sigh)
So, I'm left with a link to a thread where Jon and Jay Jaffe discuss, among other topics, the signing of Derek Lowe.
2006-11-22 15:25:33
38.   DodgerHobbit
35 eagerly agreed
2006-11-22 15:28:03
39.   Giant Hater
Furcal career OBP-.351
Pierre career OBP-.351


2006-11-22 15:28:58
40.   GIDP

I thought it was believed by sabermetricians that batting order doesn't matter. I believe I've heard Jon mention that here, but maybe I missed a revision to that theory.

2006-11-22 15:30:07
41.   Steve
38 - then you will further agree to the same stipulation regarding each player on the roster, I assume.
2006-11-22 15:31:26
42.   DodgerHobbit
I would bet my cat's tail that Pierre is benched and traded before the end of the second year of his contract.
2006-11-22 15:32:53
43.   Greg Brock
39 Trends tell a different tale. Look at the last two years.

Also, OPS is not close.

2006-11-22 15:35:35
44.   DodgerHobbit
41 not so much...I would think a pitcher in a starting rotation has a much higher potential impact on his team than a position player. Perhaps middle relievers excluding specialists.

39 yeah, the thing is his last two years are both down years that come after what usually is the end of a player's prime. Add in that speed doesn't usually last forever and you can make a case for bad, bad things in Pierre's future.

2006-11-22 15:39:54
45.   Steve
So Juan Pierre is a 45 million dollar middle reliever?
2006-11-22 15:41:58
46.   DodgerHobbit
45 LOL , literally
2006-11-22 15:41:59
47.   Greg Brock
Interesting post over at ITD.
2006-11-22 15:45:08
48.   Greg Brock
Like I've said before, I think Rawitch does a good job with a company blog, so I'm not in the business of criticizing him.

I'll just say I could have a good time picking that blog entry apart.

2006-11-22 15:49:06
49.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Over at ITD:
I think that you have to look at each free agent market separately and not compare them from year to year.
Two off-seasons ago, giving Derek Lowe a deal with $36MM over four years was immediately judged as folly. But now, it looks fairly decent.
2006-11-22 15:49:41
50.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
with = worth
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2006-11-22 15:50:17
51.   trainwreck
Once again I say. Just because other GMs are jumping off a bridge, does that mean we should join them? likes to make us worried about trading prospects.

2006-11-22 15:52:17
52.   Giant Hater
43-one, I think it is a little unfair to measure Furcal's OPS to Pierre. Pierre couldn't hit a homerun in t-ball let alone the majors. Plus if you look at both players numbers they fluctuate over the course of their careers. Even Furcals.

This isn't the worst signing ever. Pierre does have certain upsides. Hell, Pierre has collected over 200 hits in a season four times, something Furcal never has done. He also might not walk alot but he doesn't strikeout alot either, unlike Furcal. Isn't a hit just as good as a walk?

2006-11-22 15:53:13
53.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
Just because other GMs are jumping off a bridge, does that mean we should join them?
Problem is, you may be the most fiscally responsible GM in the game, but if your peers blow out the market you've got no choice but to follow if you want to sign a FA.
2006-11-22 15:55:14
54.   trainwreck
True, but he led the league in hits and still only had an OBP of .330.
2006-11-22 15:56:12
55.   trainwreck
Yeah, but if the market is crazy only try to sign good players or bargains. I do not think Pierre is either.
2006-11-22 15:56:26
56.   Greg Brock
52 Well if comparing stats is unfair, then yes, it is unfair.

Again, using counting stats like hits is not something I'm interested in. The point of baseball is to not make an out. How often (as in %) do you fail to make an out.

If you get 200 hits in 750 plate appearances, it's not particularly impressive.

2006-11-22 15:57:35
57.   trainwreck
Aramis Ramirez's contract is probably the only one I would think about doing. Every other contract so far, I would never have given out.
2006-11-22 15:58:53
58.   Greg Brock
As others have mentioned, it's 45 million dollars for a guy with the 130th best on base percentage out of 160 qualifiers.

Since I'm pretty sure this entire debate has run it's course, I'll try to make this my last say on the matter.

I'll try...

2006-11-22 15:59:46
59.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
I've always thought, if you're a GM, it's better to make the first move on the FA market. Set the market, rather than react to it.
2006-11-22 16:00:37
60.   trainwreck
Georgia Tech will pay for this!
2006-11-22 16:01:19
61.   Greg Brock
its course, not it's.

Juan Pierre put that apostrophe in there.

2006-11-22 16:04:52
62.   Daniel B
Juan Pierre sentenced Jesus to death on a crucifix.
2006-11-22 16:06:00
63.   Giant Hater
56-you make a strong and correct point, I just think (please oh god hope) Pierre will improve his numbers from last year and form a strong top of the order lineup. I do wish we didn't pay so much for him.
2006-11-22 16:06:42
64.   Steve
Rawitch has now officially given up and is reverting to analyst-speak. Hate to see that. Well, maybe the next one will be defensible. Its happened.
2006-11-22 16:08:25
65.   Greg Brock
63 We all hope, Giant Hater.

We all hope.

2006-11-22 16:09:23
66.   DodgerHobbit
58 Just think of it as if Loney, Ethier, and Martin all got raises to $2mil and we signed Pierre for $3mil.

Loney, Ethier, and Martin are going to be cheap for a long time...long enough to minimize the impact of one or 2 bad contracts. It is inefficient for sure, but maybe better than forking over young talent for an established MLB bat with power in this sellers market.

Unfortunately, Ned never just bagged all the prospects he didn't like and offer them for just ONE of the D-Rays outfielders...that would have been nice.

2006-11-22 16:11:52
67.   Blue in SF
lead in to Keith Law's evaluation of the signing:

"The early contender for the worst contract of the offseason has to be the five-year deal just handed to Juan Pierre by the Los Angeles Dodgers..."

2006-11-22 16:12:31
68.   Greg Brock
I find I'm so excited, I can barely sit still or hold a thought in my head. I think it's the excitement only a free man can feel, a free man at the start of a long journey whose conclusion is uncertain. I hope I can make it across the border. I hope to see my friend, and shake his hand. I hope the Pacific is as blue as it has been in my dreams. I hope.

I hope Juan Pierre becomes somebody else...

2006-11-22 16:14:31
69.   caseybarker
Juan Pierre becomes... Juan Castro.
2006-11-22 16:15:13
70.   DodgerHobbit
68 LOL
he won't but it will be o.k.
I bet he gets batted #2
as others have posted that probably maximizes his ability to get out (assuming no improvement in obp) semi productively without GIDP'ing.
2006-11-22 16:18:35
71.   trainwreck
On the bright side guys. If we sign Barry Bonds, Juan Pierre and Furcal should be fast enough to catch all his fly balls for him.
2006-11-22 16:23:19
72.   Jon Weisman
I happen to think the work Josh does on Inside the Dodgers is nothing less than remarkable, considering the constraints he is under.

Independent of that, in some respects, it may be that Josh takes something akin to a CanuckDodger point of view. Josh can use stats to be critical - witness how he puts down Gary Matthews in his latest post over there - but in addition to the fact that he couldn't possibly openly criticize a Dodger transaction, he does not want evaluations to be confined by stats. (By the way, neither do I. As I keep saying, it's all about emphasis.)

Now, you can disagree with some or all of Josh's approach, of course. But in the end, Josh is a very open-minded person, and his posts are wonderfully thoughtful on a blog that could just as easily have been devoted to rewritten press releases.

2006-11-22 16:24:40
73.   Greg Brock
72 I agree with you, Jon. I hope I made that clear before.
2006-11-22 16:26:00
74.   DodgerHobbit
we wants the lineup, my preciouuuus...
2006-11-22 16:29:29
75.   Jon Weisman
73 - I know you did. I was just underscoring it ...
2006-11-22 16:33:42
76.   Xeifrank
22. haha, I didn't say "Pierre is terrible", I think the "contract is terrible".

X. I don't agree with those who are putting such great value on stolen bases. Sure speed is great, when used properly. But making outs is the worst thing you can do as a hitter. Pierre makes a ton of outs. Pierre gets alot of hits. Yes, but they are singles. Well, he can steal 2nd base. Yes, and he can also get thrown out... and it's too bad he can't steal 1st base because he is only getting there 34% of the time. Stolen bases has a negative (0.02) correlation to runs scored. This is not something I made up, people 6 1/2 times smarter than me sat down and ran the numbers. The numbers don't lie. If the numbers are wrong then I would hope someone would present evidence showing that they are. As far as batting lineup construction goes. Yes, you can improve run production very slightly with lineup construction. TangoTiger has a nice writeup on this. We are talking about fractions of runs per game and a few runs per season. Also for every slot a player hits down in the lineup, over a 162 game season that player gets 18 less plate appearances. If Juan Pierre were to bat leadoff and Jeff Kent were to hit 4th, then you would be giving Juan Pierre a statistically inferior player 54 more plate appearances. If you hit Pierre 8th you would be giving him 72 less plate appearances. I'm not saying Kent should leadoff or that the order makes a huge difference, just that there are some minor advantages to how you construct your lineup, those of which I am not an expert at, but I love studying it through readings, questions and simulations. vr, Xei

2006-11-22 16:39:29
77.   Steve
He even used the phrase "who's to say." Ye Gods.
2006-11-22 16:56:12
78.   DodgerHobbit
we wants the lineup, my preciouuuus...
2006-11-22 16:56:43
79.   DodgerHobbit
78 grrr sorry for the double post
2006-11-22 16:58:27
80.   Greg Brock
Hey Canuck, if you're out there in Canadia Land, I wanted to answer your X-Files question over at, as to not incur the wrath of Xeifrank.

I'll put it in the Veronica Mars post. Robert Altman deserves better.

2006-11-22 16:59:20
81.   Greg Brock
30 minute separation on a double post.


2006-11-22 17:01:17
82.   GIDP

I'm having trouble finding a study regarding lineups on TangoTiger. If you could provide a link, cool; otherwise, I'll keep looking.

I did find this interesting though:

"There's something obvious missing from this analysis -- the benefit of aggressive base running. If a team takes a lot of risks on the basepaths, they'll make more outs, sure, but they could also take more extra bases."

2006-11-22 17:06:42
83.   trainwreck
This Heat/Spurs game needs to pick up the pace so it does not go over the UCLA game.
2006-11-22 17:10:13
84.   GMac In The 909
70 Based on everyone's opinion of Pierre, it seems fitting he'll bat No. 2
2006-11-22 17:14:17
85.   bhsportsguy
Interesting contract for Pierre, no signing bonus, 7.5 million for 2007, 8 million for 2008, 10 million for 2009-2010 and then back down to 8.5 million for 2011.
2006-11-22 17:30:46
86.   trainwreck
I wish they would have frontloaded that deal.
2006-11-22 17:31:07
87.   Yu-Hsing Chen
Can i honestly say that this move is almost like forfieting the NL West for 5 years? i'm picking the Rockies over the Dodgers next year at this rate...
2006-11-22 17:34:51
88.   Vishal
the rockies just made an excellent deal to lock up jeff francis on the cheap. 4 years, $13 million for a solid lefty starter who can pitch in coors.
2006-11-22 17:37:10
89.   regfairfield
85 Were'd you see that?
2006-11-22 17:39:13
90.   Vishal
oh, and to address zappala's point from the last thread, hits aren't totally meaningless, but for a leadoff hitter in the national league, where the #8 and #9 spots are generally black holes, the #1 guy is just not going to get to bat with runners on base an awful lot. and if he does, a single is not going to let, say, the pitcher or catcher go first to third all that often. so, while hits are nice, they seem less important than they would be for someone else in the lineup.
2006-11-22 17:40:09
91.   Vishal
[83] i'm watching that right now! in chinese.
2006-11-22 17:40:34
92.   DodgerHobbit
89 rotoworld but they didn't source the blurb on his contract.
2006-11-22 17:57:45
93.   bhsportsguy
Keith Law's analysis comes down to this, the Dodgers paid too much and for too long for a player who will not get any better than what he is and right now that is not much.

The Angels paid big stupid bucks for something that is not there and chances are, it never will be.

2006-11-22 17:58:23
94.   Greg Brock
I honestly think Ned Colletti and Bill Stoneman are playing some sort of game that only they know about.

Call it "Salary Chicken"

Ned: Man, I totally beat Bill with this Pierre signing. I mean, nobody saw this thing...Wait, he did what now?

2006-11-22 18:13:43
95.   Greg Brock
Yeah, I would feel a lot better if they had just shoved a bunch of money in his face for the first two years. At least after that, the lower salary would make him appealing

I'm sure Ned has heard of frontloading deals.

2006-11-22 18:19:56
96.   thinkblue0
I just got this message from a friend:

"the deal is official. I hope McCourt got that Geico for his monayyyyyy"


2006-11-22 19:04:26
97.   Greg Brock
Unless I am mistaken (and it happens, A LOT), Bob just dropped some Patty Duke knowledge over at Primer.
2006-11-22 19:06:23
98.   Bob Timmermann
I work under DEEP cover there.

Patty and Cathy Lane were the daughters of identical twin brothers (both played by William Schallert).

2006-11-22 19:07:19
99.   Greg Brock
I knew it!
2006-11-22 19:09:12
100.   Bob Timmermann
You knew that William Schallert had a duel role? He only made one or two appearances as his "twin" brother.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2006-11-22 19:19:56
101.   Greg Brock
100 I did not know that.
2006-11-22 19:21:06
102.   Bob Timmermann
Actually, it might have just been one. He was "Uncle Jed". He was a foreign correspondent, unlike Martin Lane, who worked as an editor in New York City.

A hot dog doesn't make me lose control.

2006-11-22 19:25:08
103.   Greg Brock
I never post at Primer. Don't know why, really. It's a nice break from Dodger type stuff.

Real reactionaries over there sometimes, though.

2006-11-22 19:27:11
104.   Bob Timmermann
You have to watch yourself at Primer or someone will call your dead father a nine-letter profanity that involves a feminine hygiene product that is predominantly liquid in nature.
2006-11-22 19:29:53
105.   Bob Timmermann
I would add that the guys who run Primer (BTF) are all very nice guys and I see them every year at the SABR convention.
2006-11-22 19:33:00
106.   Vishal
[104] oh come on, that's not a real profanity. it's one of my favorite words! just say it. it's so satisfying to vocalize those syllables.
2006-11-22 19:33:41
107.   Greg Brock
Well, I hope when you see them, they don't call your dead father Oil of Olay.

Yeah, it took me a while...

2006-11-22 19:37:07
108.   Andrew Shimmin
I once read a feminist defense of the use of that particular epithet. It was much funnier than the young woman who wrote it could have realized.
2006-11-22 19:37:19
109.   trainwreck
2006-11-22 19:44:28
110.   Bob Timmermann
I actually got the thread where the insult appeared killed because the guy who posted it violated one of the few rules of BTF, which is don't insult another commenter's family.

Other than that, pretty much anything goes there. There are a couple of very vocal Diamondbacks fans. And about 25,000 Mets fans who speak mainly in profanities.

2006-11-22 19:47:34
111.   Greg Brock
110 Yeah, I've visited that site forever, but never really commented.

Some of the screen names, however, are fantastic.

2006-11-22 19:54:12
112.   Bob Timmermann
It used to be the place to be for Dodger game chats.

Then Dodger Thoughts hit.

And it was the biggest change on the world scene since the Marshall Plan.

2006-11-22 19:55:48
113.   Greg Brock
112 Bigger than Dylan going electric?

I think not.

2006-11-22 20:01:03
114.   Andrew Shimmin
Huh. So, UCLA is up by double digits at the half, and Steve, with his Pac 10 bashing ways, is nowhere to be found. Weird. I'm sure it's just a coincidence, though.
2006-11-22 20:01:59
115.   Bob Timmermann
Bigger than Sonny Bono going network and making fur vests popular.
2006-11-22 20:02:52
116.   Bob Timmermann
I think I will write my USC-Notre Dame piece tonight and put it up tomorrow, so there will be a college football thread for the whole weekend.
2006-11-22 20:03:12
117.   Greg Brock
115 Wow. Jon really did change the world.
2006-11-22 20:04:48
118.   Greg Brock
Could the first 1000 post Griddle entry be coming?

I'm not holding out hopes. I've been hurt before.

2006-11-22 20:11:39
119.   Andrew Shimmin
Oh, I finally got an email from the Super Hair people about their ad rates. I had a good laugh, but it's a lot more than I'd be willing to spend (even if I only had to pay half) for a practical joke.
2006-11-22 20:19:42
120.   Greg Brock
119 We'll just advertise at Gawker.

I'm sure it's pretty cheap.

2006-11-22 20:24:23
121.   Greg Brock
If a Griddle advertisement ended up on Wonkette or Defamer, I think I might just die of laughter.

It would be beautiful.

2006-11-22 20:27:23
122.   Andrew Shimmin
Steve Lavin's wearing a normal shirt on ESPN2. I bet there's a clause in his contract about it. If I'd written it, there would be.
2006-11-22 20:30:54
123.   Xeifrank
A couple of good batting order optimization type of web pages.




These guys are good with the math/stats part of the study. I like to use simulations to compare lineup constructs.
vr, Xei

2006-11-22 20:38:47
124.   Greg Brock
123 Thanks, Xeifrank. I had seen the Hardball Times article, but not the other two.

Good stuff.

2006-11-22 20:47:35
125.   natepurcell
Plus, with the way the market has currently been going, who's to say that five years from now, $9 million won't be a bargain for a leadoff hitter.

almost newsradio funny.

2006-11-22 20:50:06
126.   natepurcell
that said, josh if you read this, i totally understand the restrictions put on you.

that said....i would like a job once i get out of college. I'm a marketing major and i can walk the company line just as good. Just let me be in charge of ITD and i'll only ask for 1/100th of Pierre's 2007 salary.

2006-11-22 21:09:58
127.   Greg Brock
Watching UCLA play basketball is a nice change from football.

It's like the opposite of absolute shame.

2006-11-22 21:12:33
128.   gpellamjr
127 Would that be absolute not shame?
2006-11-22 21:12:51
129.   gpellamjr
not absolute shame?
2006-11-22 21:13:42
130.   gpellamjr
Or is there some word that represents the opposite of shame? Is there any word that represents the opposite of any other word? Or do we just include some sort of privative adverb?
2006-11-22 21:14:00
131.   Greg Brock
I was thinking of pride.

But yeah, not absolute shame works...

2006-11-22 21:17:03
132.   GoBears
From the ESPN story on Pierre's signing:

"The addition of Pierre almost surely means Kenny Lofton won't be re-signed."

Uh, ya think?!

Believe it or not, that sentence made me worry that Lofton MIGHT be retained. I mean, if ESPN felt the need to even mention it, does that mean that it's not axiomatic? Nah, I'm just paranoid now. He wouldn't bench two rookies to have Pierre/Lofton/Furcal 1-2-3, would he?

Would he?


2006-11-22 21:19:12
133.   Greg Brock
132 Your new GM of the Dodgers...

Franz Kafka

2006-11-22 21:19:49
134.   trainwreck
We can only hope of a top of the lineup like that.
2006-11-22 21:23:20
135.   Greg Brock
If the Dodgers get any more slappy in the lineup, I'm going to show up to games in penny loafers, a three-piece suit, and a straw hat reading Collier's Magazine and humming tunes from Tin Pan Alley.

Seriously, Dead Ball Era, here we come...

2006-11-22 21:30:48
136.   Greg Brock
I wonder if I can bring my stereopticon to Dodger Stadium.
2006-11-22 21:47:58
137.   Dark Horse
135, 136-These notions alone almost make the signing worthwhile.
2006-11-22 21:48:30
138.   trainwreck
Wake me up
Before you go-go
Don't leave me hanging there
like a yo-yo

That title forced me to do it.

2006-11-22 21:49:33
139.   trainwreck
*hanging on
2006-11-22 22:01:28
140.   thinkingblue
Oh boy, the saddest thing about the dodgers offseason, is a lot of fans are seriously buying the thought that the dodgers are all about speed and defense and pitching, and like it.

Series of posts at

someone poses the thought that the dodgers need power, and asks which players other people think are in the dodgers price range.

the responses:

1) Power is overrated. Just ask last years team.

2)that is how dodger baseball is, speed and pitching

3) why do the dodgers need another power bat. this team scored plenty of runs last yr. our pitching was thin in september. i beleive martin,loney,kemp ,betemit and either in time will provide power. we still have kemp and nomar to give us 20 plus dingers. get furcal and pierre on base with a double by nomar or kent and we score two.


2006-11-22 22:19:29
141.   trainwreck message board is bad for one's health.
2006-11-22 22:24:56
142.   Greg Brock
By the way, since I was talking about old timey stuff, I'd like to take this opportunity to say goodbye to two of my favorite television characters, Johnny and Vern, who died on November 5th.

A sample of their genius:

2006-11-22 22:29:04
143.   StolenMonkey86
123 - Interesting point about the TOLOOGY (t wo o ut l eft-handed o ne o ut g u y). With effectively 4 lefty bats in the lineup (Furcal the only legit switch hitter), that cannot really be avoided. The best arrangement for two lefty bats would probably be Ethier in front of Betemit or Loney, since Ethier hits lefty pitching well enough.

Arranging with the 3 worst hitters in 6-8 would probably put Loney, Betemit and Pierre down there, all left-handers.

2006-11-22 22:29:39
144.   StolenMonkey86
143 - in the HBT article, that is (when they talk about the Rangers)
2006-11-22 22:30:07
145.   Andrew Shimmin
140- Number four reminds me of someone. Have to go over and check.
2006-11-22 22:31:29
146.   Andrew Shimmin
Nope. At least, I don't think so.
2006-11-22 22:33:47
147.   Greg Brock
145 I know of whom you speak.
2006-11-22 22:41:27
148.   Greg Brock
Why do you guys always quote meaningless stats? That's a bunch of Depodesta nonsense. The guy's a winner. He's a great clubhouse presence and coupled with the talent the Dodgers already have he's going to make a big impact on the team. He set the table for the 2003 Marlins -- he's an experienced winning ballplayer with a lot of heart. A guy who has played in all his team's games for the past four years. You can't punch heart and character into a stat sheet. It's those intangibles that help you win games.

That guy is in the lead for greatest human being ever. Seriously, my only trip to message board in two years, I and I get that...AWESOME!

2006-11-22 22:59:08
149.   trainwreck
Family Guy is becoming unwatachable for me.
2006-11-22 23:08:20
150.   StolenMonkey86
149 - seriously, and then the Simpsons is starting to revert to those Family Guy sequences that don't derive from the plot of all. I'm starting to side with South Park in the cartoon wars.

Stupid manatees.

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2006-11-22 23:09:11
151.   Andrew Shimmin
Has anybody seen The Fountain? The ad campaign confused me into believing this was the new one from the guy who did The Cell (which I enjoyed much more than anybody I know; it was flawed, no question, but the good stuff was really good), but that's called The Fall. And it isn't playing anywhere.

Whoops. Focus. Anybody seen The Fountain?

2006-11-22 23:12:36
152.   Greg Brock
151 Don't ask me about The Fountain. I have waited four years to see that movie, and it is getting killed.

I haven't wanted to see a movie this much in, like, forever. I'm going to see it on Friday, and am terrified that it will not hold up to my ridiculous expectations. I know that it is very esoteric, and a lot of people are dropping the whole "I don't get it" thing on it. Very 2001 reaction.

So yeah, I have a lot to say about The Fountain. But I have lost all perspective.

Oh, and it's Darren Aronovsky (Pi, Requiem for a Dream) that wrote it and directed it.

2006-11-22 23:15:19
153.   Greg Brock
If you like really beautiful imagery, I can tell you that The Fountain has it in spades.

Not that I've been following its path since the day that Brad Pitt decided to do it and dropped out and almost killed the project or anything.

2006-11-22 23:24:02
154.   trainwreck
South Park made fun of it perfectly.

Yeah, I was surprised the film eventually got made. Too bad it won't make much money, but Aronofsky does not need money to make a good film.

2006-11-22 23:34:49
155.   trainwreck
Darren Aronofsky was originally going to start the new Batman films, with Batman Year One.
2006-11-22 23:37:32
156.   Greg Brock
I was very happy with Christopher Nolan and Christian Bale. Good reboot.

Heath Ledger as the Joker and Ethan Hawke as Two Face? Not really thrilled about those choices, but I'll keep the faith in Nolan.

2006-11-22 23:40:20
157.   trainwreck
I agree with both points. I wanted Steve Buscemi for the Joker, but they wanted younger. I liked Cillian Murphy as Scarecrow, he should still be in the series since he was never caught.
2006-11-22 23:57:05
158.   Greg Brock
I'll tell you, I never got into comic books or graphic novels because I thought they were, you know, lame-o stuff (massive generalization, sorry), but a friend forced me to look at The Watchmen and another one called Black Hole, and I would love to see those made into movies.

Yup, I read two graphic novels.

2006-11-22 23:59:17
159.   trainwreck
Watchmen is being made into a movie, apparently just a single film though, no series.
2006-11-23 00:24:19
160.   trainwreck
Happy Thanksgiving to all at DT!
2006-11-23 00:36:54
161.   thinkblue0

By the same guy who did 300...which I saw by the way, and it's phenomenal.

2006-11-23 00:42:06
162.   Greg Brock
161 I would have preferred Paul Greengrass, but Zack Snyder is okays by me.

I hope Juan Pierre has a happy Thanksgiving. He has a lot to be thankful for.

Like retarded free agent markets.

2006-11-23 00:44:26
163.   thinkblue0

I know this has been discussed ad nauseum. But one thing continues to baffle me. Some people keep saying "well this is the market so with inflation it's not that bad of a deal."

I don't care what the market is, I don't care what the inflation rate is, paying 9 million bucks a year for Juan Pierre is NEVER okay. It doesn't matter what the market is, would ANYONE here give a league average at best player 9 mill a year? I still can't wrap my head around it...

Other than that, what's the next step? Schmidt? Zito? Dunn?

2006-11-23 00:46:00
164.   Greg Brock
The person who knows what happens next is Ned Colletti.

And that scares me.

2006-11-23 00:47:40
165.   Greg Brock
Honestly, I think he's going to try and land Schmidt, and then spin off some pitching for a power hitter.

Where that power hitter Plays? No clue. But if it's Adam Dunn, you've got to figure Dunn, Ethier, and Pierre in the OF, with Kemp on the horizon. I hope it's Dunn.

2006-11-23 00:56:38
166.   Greg Brock
This week's "Most important article in the history of science" is out:

I hope next week's article is just as promising. I dunno, maybe a transporter machine or something.

2006-11-23 01:21:40
167.   WellsforKemp
Honestly, I think he's going to try and land Schmidt, and then spin off some pitching for a power hitter.

Im going to be sooo disappointed if that means trading Kuo.....
I guess I dont know who else we have that would be of any value to land a Dunn though, unless the Dodgers are willing to take on a TON of $ for Burrell (if available)

I dont know why but, I am not too worried about Billingsley being traded I think I just cant see him as a trading chip.

2006-11-23 01:23:57
168.   WellsforKemp
I guess I dont know who else we have that would be of any value to land a Dunn though,

to clairify I am talking the pitcher Ned hopes to trade

2006-11-23 01:24:11
169.   Louis in SF

In all due respect I can't see Adam Dunn in a Dodger uniform in 2007. I like many on this site don't quite understand the Pierre transaction completely, less the money but more the additional year.

I actually thought that the way to go once we didn't get either Soriano or Ramirez. would have either have tried the Abury Huff selection-far cheaper less years and a more balanced lineup. Dave Roberts would also been fine, and would have requiried less years and less money.

We could have used them until the kids are fully ready. The five years for Juan is tough

2006-11-23 01:29:49
170.   WellsforKemp
I actually thought that the way to go once we didn't get either Soriano or Ramirez. would have either have tried the Abury Huff selection-far cheaper less years and a more balanced lineup.

I am going to hope that if we cant trade for a power hitter Huff isnt that backup plan.....for reasons already mentioned w/ Pierre and his non value to the Dodgers and over players already on the roster

2006-11-23 05:22:53
171.   DodgerfaninNY
The following numbers are very interesting- Would 2 yrs./$17 mil get it done?

From Chicago
The Cubs haven't expressed an interest in re-signing Maddux again but haven't ruled anything out. Maddux's second-half numbers compare favorably with five free agents on the Cubs' radar, not to mention the two biggest fish in the free-agent pitching pond.

Maddux went 8-5 with a 3.88 ERA after the All-Star break, including four starts with the Cubs before he was traded to the Los Angeles Dodgers.

Barry Zito went 8-4 with a 4.55 ERA in the second half, while Jason Schmidt was 5-4 with a 4.76 ERA. The Cubs are looking at Ted Lilly (7-5, 4.61 ERA in the second half), Gil Meche (3-4, 5.42 ERA), Jason Marquis (3-10, 6.72 ERA), Miguel Batista (3-3, 4.10 ERA) and Vicente Padilla (7-5, 4.56 ERA). Maddux reportedly is seeking a two-year deal and figures to wind up with the Dodgers or in San Diego.

2006-11-23 09:50:16
172.   underdog
Aubrey Huff = Should be a DH (terrible defense)

I'm not a fan...

But more importantly, happy Thanksgiving everyone!

2006-11-23 09:59:25
173.   Greg Brock
Yes, yes, Happy Thanksgiving to all!
2006-11-23 10:10:24
174.   saltcreek
funny article bashing Pierre.....
2006-11-23 10:41:57
175.   3upn3down
With Soriano making $17M per, the Manny Ramirez contract doesn't look so bad any more.

Anybody here willing to do this deal?

Manny Ramirez + $4M


Matt Kemp and Johnathan Broxton

2006-11-23 11:05:50
176.   kevinarno
What makes me so inordinately pissy about the signing is that it counteracts every strength of the Dodger organization, namely a surfeit of really good OF prospects. Having guys like Ethier, Kemp and Loney means that you don't have to blow 5yrs/$45M on a cipher like Pierre. And if you're Colletti and you're nervous about these guys not being ready for prime time (and that's a perfectly reasonable concern), then why not go out and sign an aging, bur serviceable player of comparable talent for a year or two? I'm not a Lofton guy, but is there anyone here who belives that his 2007 numbers wouldn't be comparable to Pierre's for four fewer years and probably $5M+ less? Is there anyone here who doesn't believe that, given 150 games, Kemp couldn't put up a 750 OPS, which is more than any fan of average intelligence would reason that Pierre is going to turn in?

I guess this is all well-trod ground at this point, but if there are five organizations in Major League Baseball who don't have to go out and commit five years to a marginal OF who does nothing to address the team's biggest deficiencies, it's the Dodgers.

Not to get vindictive, but this is classicly misguided SF management -- commiting too much to post-peak veterans (Michael Tucker anyone?) who will age a team into oblivion.

What a horrendous turn of events.

2006-11-25 05:23:01
177.   bear
Well the 7 year 100 million contract is misleading. They bought out his three years of arbitration before he had any free agent rights. Players don't usually make squat before free agency. 2007 would be the first year he would be eligible for free agency and he's gonna get $15 million next year. Which is not as much as he would get on the open market, but he leaves a bunch of money on the table b/c the cardinals gave him three years guaranteed money when they didn't have to.

The Marlin's still have Cabrera for two more years. I understand it would be cheaper to lock him up now, but as great as miguel is, hes not Albert Pujols, not by a long shot.

2006-11-25 05:29:31
178.   bear
Everyone gets caught up in the $44 million Pierre is getting, but in terms of annual value its not bad at all. Pierre is a young athletic player that is probably a top 5 leadoff man. In this market its not any worse than Gary Matthews Jr. The key to the deal is that its small enough so the Dodgers can eat it if they made a mistake. 9 million a year, not so bad, 16 million a year for Carlos Lee, uhhh... Ask me, J.D. Drew or Juan Pierre, i'll take Pierre and 162 games over Drew and 59 to 101 games.
2006-11-25 05:36:38
179.   bear
Last post I swear,

Also their always the possibility that this was a move so we could trade Furcal. Maybe a furcal for tejada trade is in the works, or Furcal for Javier Vazquez, Furcal for Joe Crede, Furcal for Manny Ramirez, Furcal for Vernon Wells, I could go on for awhile, a lot of people need shortstops and leadoff men.

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