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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Drew on Hold
2006-12-16 15:29
by Jon Weisman

J.D. Drew is still not officially a member of the Boston Red Sox, reports Tony Massarotti of the Boston Herald, raising eyebrows up to the ceiling.

The precise hang-up is unclear. Drew has had a series of ailments and injuries during his career, from a broken wrist to a bad knee to a sore shoulder. Trying to pinpoint one problematic area is virtually impossible. ...

So he passed the physical?

We're working on language issues in the contract. ...

Does that mean the Red Sox are backing out of this deal?


It just means they are probably in the process of protecting themselves.

Boras, for what it's worth, has been through this sort of thing in the past. Three years ago, when catcher Ivan Rodriguez was a free agent, teams balked at offering him guaranteed money because of his history of recurring back problems. Rodriguez subsequently signed a four-year, $40 million contract with the Detroit Tigers, but there was a caveat: If Rodriguez had an injury to a specific area of his back that landed him on the disabled list for a minimum of 35 days, the Tigers could void the final two years and pay a "termination fee" of $5 million.

Thanks to Dodger Thoughts reader Greg Brock for the pointer.

Update: Bob Timmermann directs us post-haste to Will Carroll of Baseball Prospectus:

Tony Massarotti of the Boston Herald got the story first, but I have more details on the specifics of the J.D. Drew physical. Drew took the physical shortly after the announcement of the deal in Orlando, but sources have told me that Drew showed problems in his shoulder that "could shut down his power." Drew had minor surgery on his shoulder after the 2005 season, so it's possible that there's more damage in there. It's important to note that in free agent acquisitions, a team often does not have the benefit of requesting medical records from his previous team prior to signing. Speculation centers on the damage to Drew's shoulder being more like Scott Rolen circa 2005. As Massarotti reports, it is more likely that the Red Sox get protection in the form of a very limited escape clause rather than scuttling the deal altogether. Somewhere, Bill Simmons just had someone kick him in the groin.

Comments (234)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2006-12-16 15:36:28
1.   Jon Weisman
The comments in the last thread, by the way, made me question (not for the first time) whether there is a purpose to having the Screen Jam content on a separate site. I kind of like the separation, but I'm not sure it's best for you readers or not.

Does having that content here undermine Dodger Thoughts?

2006-12-16 15:37:08
2.   Bob Timmermann
I think it was a one-night boredom sort of thing.
2006-12-16 15:38:39
3.   trainwreck
It is a good tangent that gets us to know one another more.
2006-12-16 15:40:52
4.   Bob Timmermann
It allows us to pick on Xeifrank.
2006-12-16 15:41:49
5.   trainwreck
I wonder how many years the Red Sox are going to try to void if Drew gets hurt.
2006-12-16 15:43:32
6.   Greg Brock
I really like Screen Jam. I think yesterday was just one of those things. Not much going on, and I used a throw away Forrest Gump line. Bob takes issue. Craziness ensues.

Plus 4

2006-12-16 15:44:22
7.   D4P
I had assumed "liberrian" was a Scrubs allusion...
2006-12-16 15:45:31
8.   trainwreck
I assumed Bob became a citizen of Liberia and then just mispelled it.
2006-12-16 15:45:52
9.   Greg Brock
Bill Simmons? That guy sitll around?

Boston Celtics
Red Sox
My buddy ____________
I called my dad and he said ____________
Karate Kid
End article.

2006-12-16 15:46:44
10.   Bob Timmermann
A lot of people who come to the library call it the "liberry". And not all of them are kids. Nor are all of them poorly educated.
2006-12-16 15:51:04
11.   xaphor
3. DT Team Building Camp

Todays Events:
Discuss the merits of Cabin Boy
Is the chick for Say Anything hot?
Canoe round the lake
Juan Pierre: The Campfire Stories

2006-12-16 15:52:06
12.   Icaros
I knew a fellow college English instructor (when I was still in that line of work--back off, Andrew) who seriously pronounced it liberry.
2006-12-16 15:54:31
13.   trainwreck
My friends pronounces the "l" in salmon.

I was taught to always pronounce herb with the "h" because that is the proper english pronounciation.

2006-12-16 15:58:08
14.   das411
So who will be live-blogging the big NCAA WOMENS VOLLEYBALL CHAMPIONSHIP tonight at 9PM ET, 6PM Pacific, on Espn2? The teams will be Nebraska, who iirc have been ranked #1 the entire season, and another group from some school named Stanford. Have any members of the DT community gone there, by chance?
2006-12-16 16:00:46
15.   Bob Timmermann
Hmm... my concert starts at 8 pm and the match starts at 6.

I think Stanford will have finished up in time, although I do need to go out to eat.

2006-12-16 16:01:37
16.   D4P
I'm guessing Sully wants to watch the volleyball...
2006-12-16 16:02:18
17.   Greg Brock
I will not be here for the game. I'm going out.

I know. I'm as shocked as all of you.

2006-12-16 16:03:21
18.   Bob Timmermann
Now watching the Division II state high school football championship and Orange Lutheran is already up 14-0 against Palo Alto.

Palo Alto's name is abbreviated as Paly by FSN?

Is that what the locals call it?

2006-12-16 16:04:50
19.   trainwreck
I will be watching football and listening to UCLA play Oakland on the computer., but I can give some updates if need be.
2006-12-16 16:05:19
20.   trainwreck
I have never heard Paly in my life.
2006-12-16 16:06:16
21.   bhsportsguy
9 Greg, are you upset by his writing style or the fact he gets paid to write in that style?
2006-12-16 16:08:28
22.   Greg Brock
I was a huge Simmons fan years ago, when his outsider schtick was fresh and different. There are better writers out on the tubes these days (Philosopher King among them), and he's kind of become a parody of himself. But he was a forerunner of sports blogs, so he'll always have a place.
2006-12-16 16:10:30
23.   Bob Timmermann
I'm not Greg, but I object to Bill Simmons in that he really doesn't do much as a writer other than just write about his own life. He doesn't attend many sporting events. He's not objective. He's just a string of one-liners. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's not.
2006-12-16 16:10:57
24.   D4P
I stopped liking Simmons when "his" Patriots beat "my" Rams. Coupled with the rise of the Red Sox, the whole Boston sports scene has become insufferable.
2006-12-16 16:11:15
25.   trainwreck
He writes or at least wrote for Jimmy Kimmel Live, enough said.
2006-12-16 16:12:24
26.   Bob Timmermann
The announcers are calling Palo Alto High "Paly" as well.

Orange Lutheran is abbreviated as "O Lu".

Palo Alto has a P on its helmets. Orange Lutheran has an L.
Orange Lutheran is not allowed to throw a Haily Mary pass.

2006-12-16 16:15:13
27.   Bob Timmermann
The home page for Palo Alto High School is:

2006-12-16 16:16:09
28.   Greg Brock
Page 2 is a disaster area. I've got Simmons and his phoned in articles, Scoop Jackson telling me stuff whitey isn't ready to hear, Whitlock's gone (and he wasn't anything great either), and the new gal is Scoop Jackson II. I'll pass.
2006-12-16 16:16:36
29.   Greg Brock
When Ralph Wiley passed, ESPN lost a lot more than they realized. He was awesome.
2006-12-16 16:17:24
30.   Bob Timmermann
What about TMQ?
2006-12-16 16:26:30
31.   Greg Brock
Does Easterbrook still write TMQ? I never go to Page2, I only read the occasional article. Like when I need to know how Derek Jeter is like William Zabaka's character in Karate Kid. Then I read Simmons.
2006-12-16 16:34:18
32.   Bob Timmermann
Steve Bono is an assistant coach at Palo Alto High!
2006-12-16 16:35:09
33.   Bob Timmermann
Easterbrook has created a super-intelligent cyborg to write TMQ for him.
2006-12-16 16:38:24
34.   Suffering Bruin
31 Easterbrook is still at it and, by the by, that was a funny comment. True story: Ralph Macchio, a younger kid adn yours truly were the final three for "The Karate Kid." The producers made the right choice.

And how the heck are ya? How the heck is everybody, for gosh sakes?

Thank the higher powers that be for holiday breaks for new teachers.

That is all. Dinner time. Good to be back.

1 What party did I miss?

2006-12-16 16:39:04
35.   Greg Brock
Does the cyborg hate Jewish cyborgs?

Man, I can't believe this Drew thing. I'll bet he signs, but with a very different contract. And what's wrong with the shoulder?

2006-12-16 16:41:32
36.   Greg Brock
Suffering Bruin could have been the Karate Kid. That is so awesome it defies words.

Sweep the leg!

2006-12-16 16:41:41
37.   Schteeve
When the Sox won the Series, I couldn't read Simmons anymore, he lost his schtick.
2006-12-16 16:46:08
38.   Bob Timmermann
So nobody wants a copy of this book?

I know the author and the editor. I may even be in the acknowledgments.

2006-12-16 16:46:22
39.   trainwreck
Suffering Bruin could have been a short lived teen idol. That is crazy.

You're the best arouuunnnddd ...

2006-12-16 16:52:57
40.   shamrok
Simmons has his place, he is very opinionated about other teams and cliches, but it's light-hearted enough for me not to care. His article about watching Nomar and Pedro playing at the Ravine, neither one a Sox player any longer was pretty good.
2006-12-16 16:58:26
41.   John Siv
I think comment 376 from the last thread hits it exactly. Exactly.

Drew's normal approach--and a fine, fine approach it is--will bring home the runner some amount of time as determined by the baseball gods.

But maybe, just maybe, he can commune with these gods. Get their attention, offer them a proposal. Strike a deal with them, no less—oh, they are a mercurial bunch, so best deal with caution, cool, and conviction—to allow him a better chance of driving in the runner. Oh yes, you better believe he will have to give something—maybe a dear something--in return! But, what if--and this may be a big if here--what if the price was worth it? What if he offered up some extra base hits and some walks and allowed himself to K more often? What if this sacrifice pleased the baseball gods? What if this deal was accepted and Drew adopted this approach? What would we, the fans, see? How could we know of such a meeting between immortality and man?

It's quite a task to look at the outcome of any single plate appearance and divine what approach he's taking. Fans aggregate results over a long period of time and use these observations to intuit what's in the player's mind and perhaps, even, what's in his soul. For if he's not willing to challenge the gods, then what sort of a man is he?

Imagine, if you will, two fields of dreams. On one field grows lots of grass peppered with just a little dirt, and on the other lies mostly dirt punctuated by a few tufts of green. You are allowed to gather groundcovering from the fields. If you want grass, you know where to go. If you want dirt, you are likewise set. But what if the task is reversed? What if you find a barrow full of dirt and grass and want to know from which field of dreams it was filled? Could you do it? Would you do it? This is a much harder task. But this is the one we are given, by the baseball gods, when a batter is at the plate. We are allowed a barrow of dirt and grass—his outcome—and required to determine on which field his dreams live.

When fans see a batter walk time and time again with a guy on third they may conclude he is chasing the wrong dream and utilizing the wrong approach. If they see the K's, on the other hand, they may start to see a powerful dream emerge, one featuring a wide shot of Drew and the gods haggling for the sake of his team, craft, and fans. And this is why some say they prefer the K to the BB. We want the players to go to the gods, we want them on their knees in pure wild supplication, trading their hearts out to gain the edge needed to win this thing right here right now.

So, if a player can make such a bargain and if the game situation dictates that the single run is more valuable than the chance for a big inning, then shouldn't he take this shot? Isn't that the right play? Isn't that the only play?

Of course it is.

The question, then, is whether the baseball gods deign to engage in such bargaining. This is the heart of comment 375. We know it is possible in the extreme case of the sacrifice bunt, where the batter gives up almost all hope of reaching base in exchange for a dramatically increased chance of moving a runner over. Is it at all possible that there is a middle ground between the batter's normal attack pattern and the straight bunt, a field covered not with pure sod nor pure soil, that will allow a hitter to give up something to get that man home now? This is what's at stake here.

Does Drew help the team by using an approach that leads to drawing walks? Absolutely. Are there times when he would help the team by using an approach that would increase the chance of an out and lower the chance of a walk? Absolutely--if such an approach is possible. So, is it?

2006-12-16 17:10:05
42.   trainwreck
I am not sure it is possible with JD Drew. His patience is so precise and it seems so engrained in him. I think if he tried to be more aggressive it might mess him up so badly that he could not do anything right. Thereby eliminating the one skill he does posses, getting on base.
2006-12-16 17:14:05
43.   trainwreck
Thankfully I did not pay the 10 bucks for the UCLA game, because the video and radio feeds are not working.
2006-12-16 17:34:07
44.   D4P
Some folks believe Hee-Seop Choi suffered (permanent?) damage from Wallach/Tracy's efforts to make him more aggressive at the plate.
2006-12-16 17:37:13
45.   Bob Timmermann
Just because you cheated death, you think you can throw a live Choi grenade in here?
2006-12-16 17:46:39
46.   Jon Weisman
36 - Oh. My. God.

Go Stanford!

2006-12-16 17:47:42
47.   D4P
I dodged death fair and square.
2006-12-16 17:49:33
48.   Bob Timmermann
Stop playing chess against death while speaking in Swedish!
2006-12-16 17:55:05
49.   D4P
Sometimes you make me feel like Sully...
2006-12-16 17:56:40
50.   Bob Timmermann
I'm still mad at Sully.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2006-12-16 17:58:16
51.   Andrew Shimmin
Hey, did everybody see? I just got named Time's Man of the Year! Really! Just go to Drudge. . .
2006-12-16 17:59:50
52.   D4P
Ah, you can't stay mad at Sully for very long...Sure, he gets on your nerves and all, but he makes you laugh in spite of yourself.
2006-12-16 18:16:33
53.   Andrew Shimmin
Ask not for whom the bell tolls, Mitch Albom, 'cause your next.

2006-12-16 18:40:22
54.   Andrew Shimmin
Wow. You're. I was distracted with my new found suspicion for Icaros.
2006-12-16 18:53:10
55.   we are infinite
18 Sorry to jump in a little late, but yep, I grew up next to Palo Alto and everyone calls it "Paly."
2006-12-16 19:32:58
56.   thinkblue0
the Sox are probably putting in an out clause in case they catch Drew ridin' dirty.
2006-12-16 19:39:14
57.   StolenMonkey86
51 - Hey, me too! Yay!
2006-12-16 19:47:49
58.   das411
...WOW, quite the volleyball match goin on here...
2006-12-16 19:55:51
59.   trainwreck
Yeah, I just checked in and it is a very close game.

In case you have not seen (do not worry you will over and over) the Knicks and Nuggets got into a brawl.

2006-12-16 20:01:19
60.   scareduck
Oh, sweet, sweet revenge. May the Red Sox eat all nine figures of Drew's contract.
2006-12-16 20:04:16
61.   das411
So why is the Stanford womens volleyball team wearing Atlanta Falcons uniforms?
2006-12-16 20:09:35
62.   trainwreck
#1 for Stanford is very attractive.
2006-12-16 20:10:51
63.   trainwreck
#9, the left-handed spiker for Nebraska is awesome.
2006-12-16 20:12:31
64.   das411
Well that 28-21 point may have just sealed it...cmon Stanford, make this interesting!!
2006-12-16 20:13:44
65.   das411
Is she the one who looks like she has a black eye trainwreck?

62 - Agreed.

That mini lesson about what a libero does was pretty cool too!

2006-12-16 20:15:24
66.   trainwreck
I swear, #9 on Nebraska would be a wicked baseball pitcher. Her over-the-top arm swing is powerful and fast.
2006-12-16 20:15:49
67.   das411
Woah that was a ballsy call to let that serve go long...
2006-12-16 20:16:32
68.   trainwreck
Barbosa is the Stanford player's name.
2006-12-16 20:17:01
69.   das411
#10 on Stanford is the only reason they are still in this go ahead and show her some more please!
2006-12-16 20:17:29
70.   trainwreck
It just seems wrong for Nebraska fans to wear Hawaiian shirts.
2006-12-16 20:18:29
71.   trainwreck
Damn, wanted to see one more game.
2006-12-16 20:19:37
72.   das411
Aww congrats to Nebraska. Stanford'll get there next year...but that was some home field advantage Nebraska had tonight!!
2006-12-16 20:32:21
73.   Daniel Zappala
That was a great volleyball match. The Stanford player who got hit in the face reminded me of ... me. I've got a friend I play against who hits very hard. Congrats to Nebraska.
2006-12-16 20:55:55
74.   Xeifrank
1. Since you asked. My vote is for all movie/tv talk to go to Screen Jam. If it's sports related, or just a couple of posts per thread then I don't mind. But when I see a thread get taken over by movie, tv and even music talk I usually head elsewhere for my baseball readings.
vr, Xei
2006-12-16 20:59:36
75.   Jon Weisman
74 - Yours was the one vote I can say I knew unmistakably.
2006-12-16 21:10:55
76.   Xeifrank
75. haha! Even though I don't like the movie/tv/music talk, it's a tribute to what a great blog you have going that it's like it's own little community and people feel comfortable enough to talk about personal matters. For me, last nights thread produced an unendurable ennui.
vr, Xei
2006-12-16 21:15:21
77.   Linkmeister
Better ennui than anomie, I always say.
2006-12-16 21:53:18
79.   Jon Weisman
We had one of our best baseball conversations ever on this site from Thursday night through Friday afternoon, but I guess it's what have you done for me lately, so farewell.
2006-12-16 21:54:34
80.   Linkmeister
ChickenSauce is obviously not a libertarian (if you don't like what's on the tube, turn it off).
2006-12-16 21:54:51
81.   dzzrtRatt
"Dodger Thoughts" has evolved into a community of Dodger fans who sometimes like to talk about other things, especially during the rare times when it is off-season and the hot stove goes cold. That's the ultimate threshold for a blog, one that few have crossed. These aren't just comments, they're a real conversation. "Screen Jams" is a movie/TV blog that still gets a lot more comments than most blogs, but isn't DT yet, and might never be. But the point of both blogs is what Jon has to say. As long as you like posting about entertainment, you should keep it up. I promise I'll visit you there more often; starting with adding it to my RSS feed.
2006-12-16 21:56:28
82.   Jason in Canada
Well, I really have enjoyed reading the comraderie around here since Jon's sight was Dodger blue and white at All-baseball, honestly though if I ever contribute to taking it off track please give me a gentle rebuke!
2006-12-16 21:58:01
83.   Jason in Canada
And Greg Brock should get some award for all the scoops lately!
2006-12-16 22:00:53
84.   Jon Weisman
81 - Well, right now, it's definitely tough for me to post at both consistently. So there will continue to be gaps over there at Screen Jam.

82 - Yes, but who remembers the days when Dodger Thoughts was part lavender?

2006-12-16 22:02:18
85.   Xeifrank
79. We regressed to the mean. :)
vr, Xei
2006-12-16 22:03:47
86.   Vishal
[78] are you kidding me? baseball "doesn't really come up much anymore"? i bet you would be hard-pressed to find a thread in which baseball DIDN'T come up.
2006-12-16 22:13:16
87.   Xeifrank
86. Don't feed the trolls.
vr, Xei
2006-12-16 22:19:55
88.   Xeifrank
Buster Olney (ESPN) mentions today that he thinks AROD might opt out of his contract at the end of the 2007 season. Being a FA at 32 is better than being one at 35. 8 years at $160 million was the numbers mentioned. Any interest?
vr, Xei
2006-12-16 22:24:18
90.   trainwreck
I think LaRoche can be a star third baseman for us. If perhaps we decided to move him to second base and traded Betemit then signing A-Rod makes sense. I have the feeling he would end up a Cub though and play SS.
2006-12-16 22:26:36
91.   trainwreck
Or second base. Not like Mark DeRosa is going to stand in his way.
2006-12-16 22:28:47
92.   Xeifrank
90. Second base is a tougher position than third base (defensive spectrum). I'm not familiar with LaRoche's defensive abilities and if he's able to make such a switch in positions. I would assume his defensive abilities are no worse than Kent's?
vr, Xei
2006-12-16 22:30:59
93.   trainwreck
LaRoche is known for having a good arm, soft hands, good range, and quick reflexes. He is a good defensive player, he could handle it.
2006-12-16 22:32:57
94.   Jon Weisman
89 - Sauce, I'm sorry you feel picked on. I guess I just was surprised by your comment - most blogs are dormant today, so given that we had solid baseball talk here all week long, it just surprised me to see someone go out of their way to say that it wasn't enough. But I hope there are no hard feelings.
2006-12-16 22:47:49
95.   trainwreck
What would we do this year and in the future if Loney and LaRoche prove themselves ready? I am talking about in regards to Betemit, Kent, Nomar, and whoever else it affects. Would you trade Nomar and Betemit or others for prospects? Play Nomar in outfield? A lot of options.
2006-12-16 22:55:55
96.   Xeifrank
95. Any chance LaRoche makes the club out of spring training. Or is he pretty much gauranteed starting the season in AAA no matter how he does in spring training. I would think Loney has a starting position in the OF and a decent amount of starts at first base if he does well. All of it depends on performance. If Betemit does well then it will be hard to squeeze him out of starts, but I'd like to see some flexibility with Nomar (3B and LF and 2B if Kent goes down), but I doubt it will happen. LaRoche would have to tear up AAA and Betemit stinking up the joint for his impact to be 2007. Towards the end of 2007 and 2008 spring training the 3B job could very well be up in the air between Betemit and LaRoche. How many years is Betemit signed for anyways?
vr, Xei
2006-12-16 22:58:12
97.   Gagne55
89 You sound like a noob just asking to get pwn3d.
2006-12-16 22:59:30
98.   Sagehen
95 I think it depends upon whether you are talking about this year or next. Do you begin with a platoon of Betemit and LaRoche at 3B? I think Loney is more likely to end up in the outfield than Nomar. Do you install a Loney/Kemp platoon in RF next year? If LaRoche and Loney are ready, and Kent repeats his performance from last year, do you pick up Kent's option year? More questions, I know.

Personally, next year I'd like to see Nomar shifted to second, Loney at first, LaRoche at third, and Betemit a supersub. I doubt that will happen, though, because it's too many kids in the lineup at once.

If LaRoche and Loney are ready, do you keep them on the bench, or do you keep them in AAA for an extra year in order to have control of them through one more of their "prime" years before they hit free agency?

Just thought I'd add to trainwreck's questions to keep us on baseball. I don't think I'm saying or asking anything new here though.

2006-12-16 23:32:17
99.   trainwreck
I think we have Betemit for awhile as he has not hit arbitration years yet. I doubt LaRoche makes the club out of spring training. He is going to be coming off of shoulder surgery and I just do not think he is the good graces of Ned and Grady. I think it would take him having a monster spring and Betemit struggling and even then I think it would be a platoon at best. Only if an injury happened.
2006-12-16 23:38:16
100.   trainwreck
If I was in control and LaRoche and Loney seem ready even in spring training I would start platooning players. LaRoche/Betemit at third, Loney/Nomar at first, Loney/Gonzo in left, and then maybe do the super utility idea with Betemit. Kent is going to definitely need some days off or at least some games at first.

Really, if I was in control Loney would be already the 1st baseman and LaRoche would platoon with Betemit and then I would expect LaRoche to take the job.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2006-12-17 00:37:04
101.   Andrew Shimmin
I thought ChickenSauce might have been the guy Canuck ran roughshod over (because that would be funny), a couple weeks ago, but he wasn't. He's the guy who started this little exchange, for which he has my eternal gratitude:

37. ChickenSauce
Am I a stupid, dull person for hating these stat happy blogs?

39. JoeyP
No, everyone has different tastes. I know some people that love reading, but hate numbers. Others are the exact opposite.

40. [Bob writes something that doesn't advance the narrative]

41. Andrew Shimmin
I hate numbers AND words. I'm that edgy.

Memories, in the corner of my mind. . . Lots of stuff in that thread that makes me smile. All Star guest appearances, blasts from the past, and a great big stemwinder at the end, from GoBears, on why it's not snobby to ask people to proofread.

2006-12-17 01:06:05
102.   bhsportsguy
Here's my own set of rules re commenting on the various sites around here.

1. DT - all Dodger related posts, anything related to what Jon has written, the neverending debate of stats vs. scouts and responding to other comments.
2. The Griddle - all non-Dodger related posts, some UCLA stuff, whatever Bob has written and sometimes I just throw stuff up there to get Bob's attention.
3. Screen Jam - Right now, it has been limited to "Office" related material but I go there to see what Jon has written and if I have anything to say.

Now, there is no question when something like Drew's opt out or the potential Manny trade, Pierre's signing (which I think now falls just behind the Delino/Pedro deal and Piazza trade (if only DT existed then) as the worst deals in recent history if you discount all of Sherrif Malone's deals, Driefort's free agent contract and the Heart and Soul trade), DT is running hot with great posts from the DT community.

But as we are in the midst of the holiday season and only Barry Zito awaits to see if his stocking is filled with Met dollars, I can certainly see how some non-baseball thoughts could creep in.

Fear not lurkers, pitchers and catchers report in a little more than 2 months so the time is coming.

And for everyone else, happy holidays to all and to all, a good night.

2006-12-17 01:25:25
103.   Eric Enders
I'm real late to the party, but my vote would be for the status quo. Dodger Thoughts for baseball, and for occasional random unrelated topics. Screen Jam as Jon's outlet for entertainment writing. I think artificial limitations being placed on the discussions would be to both sites' detriment.

As one who's participated in the off-topic discussions -- and probably occasionally started them -- I have to say I enjoy them greatly and see them as an essential part of Dodger Thoughts. Having Screen Jam to siphon away some of the entertainment talk is fine, but speaking for myself, I find myself visiting Screen Jam, well, almost never, because (a) I honestly have no real idea what The Office is, and (b) There aren't enough commenters over there to really get a big discussion going. Although I did very much enjoy Jon's handicapping the Oscars piece the other day.

See, the point of the off-topic discussions here is that it's the Dodger Thoughts community doing the discussing. Sure, we could discuss movies on a movie message board, but that's not the point. The point is discussing these things with the DT community we've established. I don't give a hoot if some random yahoo on the internet likes crybaby rock. But the fact that Greg Brock likes crybaby rock, well now, that's interesting to me.

So there's my 2 cents. Take it for what it's worth, which admittedly ain't much.

2006-12-17 01:33:45
104.   Andrew Shimmin
Can anyone tell me how any of the comments in this thread are on the theme of a Nutcracker Christmas? I think you all should leave.
2006-12-17 01:36:38
105.   Bob Timmermann
I thought my comment that day advanced the narrative!

Oh well.

Now I have no idea if I should write my Rose Bowl retrospectives. They might tick off people.

2006-12-17 04:05:23
106.   Sagehen
100 The trouble is that there's only room on the roster for one of Loney or LaRoche (or Kemp for that matter). Lieberthal is the catcher. Unless Betemit can play shortstop, Martinez is on board to backup Furcal. Can anyone other than Repko backup Pierre in center? I suppose we could assume Pierre will play 162 games, but if he goes down and Kemp isn't ready, we're actually going to need Repko (OK, I admit it, I have a sentimental attachment to Repko, which defies all statistical theory, I know). Anderson and Saenz are the primary left and righthanded pinchhitters. Assuming an 11 man pitching staff, that leaves one spot open, so the mass platooning plan isn't going to work, unless you have a plan for reconfiguring the roster (and I'm open to ideas). I'd prefer to have LaRoche in AAA rehabilitating his shoulder without accumulating major league service time anyway.
2006-12-17 06:16:23
107.   twerp
Rumor of the day dept., I guess...

Story speculates possible Dodger interest if this develops.

Surely, surely not....

More likely someone had to come up with some sort of baseball column, and this was the result.

2006-12-17 07:29:22
108.   Gen3Blue
107 definitely sounds like a story was needed.

I read Simmons when I got up, and Bobs remark about someone kicking him in the groin became hilarious! Being from Ma., I have a feeling Boston fans will make Philly fans look like J.D's buddies.

2006-12-17 07:38:23
109.   Gen3Blue
Re. 108 Sorry--the remark should have been attributed to Will. Not that Bob hasn't had some good ones.
2006-12-17 09:30:04
110.   the count
As someone who started visiting the site a while after it first appeared, I have found it difficult to post as the baseball related talk is often gone by the time I open a thread. That being said, the inability to post (as I don't always understand the humor on the site) has never precluded me from reading Jon's entries and some intelligent baseball posting that does happen.

I don't necessarily think that the posting "rules" should change, but I also don't think that the volume of frequent posters will grow very fast. But I think it is someone's own loss if they decide not to read thoughtful posts because they do not get some of the inside humor that goes on.

2006-12-17 09:30:11
111.   Bob Timmermann
Ooh, my groin!
2006-12-17 09:42:51
112.   Gen3Blue
111 I hadn't even noticed that possibility from my cloudy reference. But thinking about grammer too much early in the day gives me a head-ache. Drew not only has many aches and pains, but he seems to be a carrier causing chains of aches in many people in widespread area.
2006-12-17 09:46:11
113.   immouch
110: I'm a longtime lurker but your use of the word "thoughtful" roughly 40 times woke me from hibernation or coma or whatever. Not sure why, exactly, but it did. The topic is baseball, not metaphysics.

Re: all the suggestions that Loney play outfield, or that LaRoach/Betiment/Nomar job-share, are whacky for the same reason market-timing in the stock market is whacky. You've gotta be right twice which, frankly, is twice more than Grady can hack.

Finally, 111., sorry to hear about the groin.

2006-12-17 09:46:38
114.   D4P
It Sitcom World, there's nothing quite as hilarious as a good groin strike.
2006-12-17 09:47:43
115.   Curtis Lowe
I don't mind any of the off topic discussion here, I also don't participate in them because in my opinion Bullet Proof Monk was the best movie ever made barely edging out Deathrace 2000 due to the infamous hot dog explanation.
2006-12-17 09:51:35
116.   Bob Timmermann
It was Sully who did it.

But as for inside humor on DT, isn't that always a feature of a group of online users? When you're in a foxhole (aka game chat) day after during the regular season, a few people are going to develop their own style of humor and there will be inside jokes.

There are no Juan Pierre fans in a foxhole.

2006-12-17 09:55:01
117.   overkill94
Should we really get bent out of shape because one random guy took offense to one day's worth of movie talk? It sounds crass, but if we try to tailor our conversations to everyone then we'll lose our spontaneousness and become stale. It's good to be inviting to everyone, but it's wrong to change your style just to make everyone happy.
2006-12-17 09:56:46
118.   overkill94
Plus, it's not like yesterday's movie chat was such inside baseball that no one could jump in - people were simply posting their favorite movies of the 90s and the rest of us were commenting on the choices, anyone could have done it.
2006-12-17 09:56:51
119.   immouch
110: Ok, you said "thougtful" once. It just felt like 40 times.
2006-12-17 09:58:45
120.   D4P
It was Sully who did it

That Sully. How did such an uncultured, uncouth, unkempt Neanderthal end up with such a beautiful wife? What does she see in that guy?

2006-12-17 10:14:19
121.   Bob Timmermann
And I saw Sully after the concert trying to hit on a soprano in the chorus.
2006-12-17 10:17:55
122.   D4P
"Boys will be boys," so sayeth Sully's wife. Course, he won't tolerate it if she so much as acknowledges another man. Silly Sitcom World...
2006-12-17 10:26:31
123.   Bob Timmermann
"Most People More or Less Just Put Up With Sully"
2006-12-17 10:29:53
124.   Marty
I'm a long-time dopey commenter who rarely contributes much to the baseball talk. Besides Jon's writing, it's the over-all sense of community (plus my uncontrollable urge to goof off) that brings me here. I also don't get all the inside jokes, how could you unless you read every comment of every thread diligently. For example, I have no idea what all the Sully talk is about, but who really cares? Take this site for what it is. Enjoy the parts you like, ignore the parts you don't. Kinda like real life.
2006-12-17 10:35:06
125.   Marty
With that off my chest, let me do this again:

Reminder about the Happy Holiday of your choice fundraiser:

I'm going to match up to $200 of DT commenter's donations to this site.

Just drop me an email at when you make a contribution. I'll track the responses and match the amounts up to $200 total. Please put Dodger Thoughts in the subject of the mail to make it easier for me to find.

Please don't think there is any pressure to contribute if you don't want to/can't afford to. It's perfectly fine.

So far, I've gotten notice for $90 dollars in donations from some fine people out there. Don't you want to be like them? :-)

2006-12-17 10:36:13
126.   Bob Timmermann
In 2005, for the second half of the regular season, I think I was one of the few commenters who was not totally engrossed in the Jacksonville Suns season.

I'm not a prospect maven, so I just sort of tuned that part out. I didn't feel any worse.

However, I didn't mind that a lot of people ignored a lot of my World Cup discussions or even WBC discussions.

One of the posts on the Griddle that got the most comments was about a redesign of the nickel.

2006-12-17 10:46:18
127.   Disabled List
I don't mind the occasional off-topic divergence, particularly in the offseason when actual baseball news is sparse. However, the OT stuff shouldn't take over completely. If a midseason game chat spirals into a 400-post "Best Saved By The Bell Episode Ever" debate, then we have a problem.

Personally, I like the community aspect of DT - there are regulars whose posts I enjoy, but it never gets too insular or clique-ish. I also like that this is a moderated site, so that keeps the idiots and political flamers out.

Those are the things - the cliques, idiots, political flamers, and endless OT ramblings - that killed off the Usenet groups, which I used to love to frequent back in the 90s. I'd hate to see the same thing happen here, but I doubt that it would.

2006-12-17 10:49:15
128.   twerp
Another take on the Dodgers' offseason, which Newsday writer thinks has been good. Not much new, just a different perspective===

2006-12-17 10:50:06
129.   Curtis Lowe
Originally posted on The Griddle:

Hall will be missed by few and forgotten by many but I will always remember the excitment he brought every 5to15 days, it was an intangible effort by the Tobster that drove the Dodgers to take the NL Wild Card.
I will miss the epic chant that would frenzy Dodger stadium, "Toe-bee, Toe-bee, Toe-bee..."

I hope the South Side gets as much from the Tobster as he gave LA in his short but legendary stint and I hope the Tobster recieves the same amount of love and admiration that over-flowed on a daily basis out in Bluetown.

Tobster, I hope the media embraces you as tightly in the windy city. What will become of the sports section? Without the Tobsters consistent accomplishments I fear the paper will slip into a fog of half witted hack columns.

Toby Hall

2006-12-17 10:57:22
130.   Gen3Blue
So Toby to Sox.
2006-12-17 11:09:07
131.   overkill94
Good lord football announcing is terrible. The color guy for the Redskins/Saints game can't stop talking about how awesome it was for the Saints to try a pointless challenge because coincidentally the Redskins had a couple false start penalties afterward. I've heard of icing the kicker with a timeout, but never icing a whole offense.
2006-12-17 11:12:55
132.   Bob Timmermann
And these announcers have just said they're covering the Sugar Bowl. But they will have Terry Bradshaw with them!

Ooohhhh. My cochleae hurt.

2006-12-17 11:41:38
133.   twerp
Good take on how SoCal teams benefit from local guys wanting to come home, especially the Dodgers this offseason...

2006-12-17 12:00:47
134.   das411
108 - Ohhhh you just wait until the next time the Sawks (Red Averages is an in-joke, from the translation game you guys were playing about a week ago) come to Phila!

--sharpens D-batteries....yes it is possible--

127 - "back in the 90s"? Man I feel old!

2006-12-17 12:14:49
135.   overkill94
Apologies to those who use Mac's, but the commercials they're putting out these days are really stupid. Are we supposed to want to buy a Mac because the PC guy gave him a C++ GUI programming guide for Christmas? Is that supposed to be a rip on PC's because they borrowed the GUI idea from Mac? Would the average computer user even know that, let alone use that as a reason to choose Mac over PC?
2006-12-17 12:17:35
136.   Bob Timmermann
I'm not quite as sold on the players wanting to come home to play. Southern California provides the largest share of American-born players in MLB. They can't all want to play for the Dodgers, Angels, and Padres.

Why would this apply to baseball when in other sports, Southern California athletes play wherever they end up? Granted in the NFL, there is only one Southern California team.

But did the Lakers draft Jordan Farmar because he was a local player or did it just happen that they liked him and he happened to be from Southern California?

There are a lot of great baseball players from Southern California. And most of them will play wherever they can get the best deal.

2006-12-17 12:22:09
137.   Bob Timmermann
Tennessee leads Jacksonville 24-10 and has scored all three of its TDs on defense.

The Titans have 90 yards of offense.

2006-12-17 12:32:38
138.   Bumsrap
There are times when I see the 609 comments on Ivory Backscratchers and just go directly to another site.

And when I see about four posters run up large numbers of comments I always think, why can't they go to a chat room for those kinds of comments and leave the rest of us alone.

Perhaps a legitimate Dodger Thought has to appear at least once every ten posts so that those chat room comments can't be continued until one of the chatters comments on the Dodgers.

It is not a matter of being off topic with me. It is the chat room type chats that bother me if for no other reason than they create blocks of 50 comments quickly.

If I want to come back to this site and see what was said in relation to the last time I was there and perhaps posted, I have to go back two blocks of comments and who wants to add anything to a stale block.

I don't watch office so a few comments about that show lets me know what it is about. Then I am reminded that it appeals to the under thirty group and realize that I used to watch Three's Company and Zorro. Don't need those memories.

I hear the Mets may want Penny if they don't get Zito. But, they either have too much or not enough to make an offer for Penny. I hope Zito goes to Texas, the place where Boras continues to build his reputation.

2006-12-17 12:37:34
139.   alex 7
and yet my jacksonville fantasy defense loses points. Makes no sense.
2006-12-17 12:39:46
140.   alex 7
as for baseball, I still don't see the rush to trade Penny. Somehow, I keep thinking that having Schmidt, Lowe, and Penny 1,2,3 is a good thing.
2006-12-17 12:42:46
141.   Bumsrap
I don't think there should be a rush to trade Penny either. Wait until after June and then the Dodgers would be able to include the likes of Pierre and Gonzo in a trade that might include Penny.
2006-12-17 12:47:35
142.   Bob Timmermann
I'm 41 and I love "The Office."

Clearly, different people have different expectations of Dodger Thoughts. Ultimately, it's Jon who makes the call on the content, but then the people who visit provide the commentary.

The fact that they get off topic is an unavoidable byproduct of the internet. You can't expect Jon to go through every comment and delete everything that is not on topic.

The other alternative would be to make commenting by invitation only and that would be antithetical to the goals of Baseball Toaster.

2006-12-17 12:55:51
143.   overkill94
138 It's not that hard to just skip the comments you can immediately deem "not worth your time". I could care less about UFC stuff, so when I see some guys talking about it I just skip their posts and move on.
2006-12-17 13:00:52
144.   Bob Timmermann
I think much of this debate reinforces the theory that someone once proposed to me, "The only reason why somebody else listens to someone else is on the hope that somebody else will listen to them when they want to talk."
2006-12-17 13:08:10
145.   D4P
I prefer listening over talking, so I guess I listen for other reasons as well. For one thing, I tend to learn more from listening than from talking...
2006-12-17 13:13:11
146.   overkill94
145 Except when a woman's talking, right?
2006-12-17 13:20:56
147.   D4P
Et tu, overkill?
2006-12-17 13:26:27
148.   overkill94
I keed, I keed
2006-12-17 13:45:01
149.   overkill94
I'm not exactly sure why, but the Carl's Jr. Philly Cheesesteak commercial really annoys me. I really need to get Tivo so that I don't have to put up with all this ineptitude.
2006-12-17 13:52:25
150.   Andrew Shimmin
The comment count really does suppress new commenters, I bet. I never read the comments on half the blogs I visit because there's just no way I can cram another six hundred comments in to my day. If I came across DT for the first time, today, I might never venture in to the comments section. But there's not really a way around that. And there are worse fates.

I'm with overkill, though; is it really that difficult to skip comments you don't care about? I haven't read a D4P comment, all the way through, in like ten months!

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2006-12-17 13:55:10
151.   trainwreck
I have never heard a person from Philly or anywhere frankly talk like that.
2006-12-17 13:58:25
152.   overkill94
150 There's your true mortal enemy, D4P, I was just a temporary nuisance.
2006-12-17 13:58:34
153.   Steve
If everyone's so offended about talking about Election, imagine actually having to watch the thing.
2006-12-17 14:00:06
154.   twerp
136 Agreed, not all athletes want to go home to play (wherever home is). Circumstances would have to be right for those who do, whatever the sport. A big part of that would have to be little if any financial sacrifice. I doubt anyone wants to play at home enough to leave a whole lot on the table elsewhere.

But if some do want to come home, as a couple new Dodgers have said was the case, and it can be worked to the Dodgers' advantage, so much the better. The Dodgers--like any team--will take any edge they can get.

As you note, many pro athletes come from Southern California. If it becomes a trend for more of them to want to come back to play, it could benefit SoCal teams just from a numbers standpoint.

I'd think that with the Lakers and Farmar, his being local was just cake icing, maybe thought to be worth a bit more $$$ at the gate.

137 BTW, Go Titans! 24-17 final. However long the run lasts, Fisher--a USC guy (sorry!)--has them pointed the right way. But there has to be offensive improvement. Playoffs are still very unlikely, a quick exit likely if they do squeak in.

Link re Fisher (warning....may be painful to UCLA folks)...this probably is somewhat dated since it refers to Steve McNair being a Titan, mentions 2003. Maybe the Trojans are a bit lax updating their Legends page?

2006-12-17 14:07:29
155.   twerp
140 In the past few days I've read that Ned and Grady were growing fond of the idea of Penny's overmatching the other team's #3 starter, at least most of the time.
2006-12-17 14:11:07
156.   Bob Timmermann
I think the Southern California players are signing contracts with the Dodgers and Angels because those teams were giving them a lot of money. If Randy Wolf was taking a "home team discount", I would be fearful to find out what he would get paid if he played in Chicago or New York.

Not many Floridians want to go play for the Marlins or D-Rays. Mainly because those teams don't pay much or stink (or both).

Jeff Fisher is beloved by UCLA fans since he was the guy who tipped Jay Schroeder's pass into Freeman McNeil's hands in the 1980 game. It ended up as a 50-yard TD pass that gave UCLA a 20-17 win.

2006-12-17 14:11:45
157.   Jon Weisman
To correct any misunderstanding, I wasn't suggesting in 1 any change to the comment world here. I was only thinking out loud about the merits of having two sites vs. one.

As far as the comments here go, merging the two sites back together would lead to more non-Dodger comments, or perhaps some threads on Dodger Thoughts dedicated to non-Dodger topics.

In any case, I will be keeping the two sites separate, but imposing limits on non-baseball talk here is not in the plans. I'm pretty happy with the way the community works here, and I say that even though I have no interest in the music or UFC or some other discussions.

As someone who reads pretty much every comment here, I would argue that it really doesn't take that long to scroll through if you're looking for a specific topic. I would also suggest that baseball still remains by far the dominant topic here - even more so since Screen Jam was born. Even if that site doesn't have a lot of comments, I have noticed a tangible decline in entertainment comments here. I think Xeifrank would back me on that. The movie discussion Friday night and Saturday is more and more of an aberration.

I also don't think people should feel too hesitant about restarting a baseball conversation even after some time has passed.

Certainly, though, I don't want anyone to feel obligated to read the comments here. I just care about you reading me :)

2006-12-17 14:15:07
158.   Bob Timmermann
I would add that the number of fans who attend Laker games because they want to see Jordan Farmar play probably are not larger than members of Jordan Farmar's immediate family.

Pro basketball and pro football have really given up on the idea of bringing in the local college hero to play on the pro team. The fans of college teams and pro teams are starting to become disjoint sets.

Look at UCLA's attendance for home basketball games. It's not great. More people would rather see the Lakers play the Bobcats than watch UCLA play anyone. Even though a UCLA basketball game is a lot cheaper.

2006-12-17 14:21:20
159.   Bob Timmermann
Belaboring my own point, when the Dodgers moved to L.A. in 1958, they did work a few Southern Californians on to the roster.

Drysdale played in Brooklyn before coming out, but there were also guys like Ron Fairly who was on the big club at age 19 right off the USC roster. Bob Lillis was brought up from the minors at age 28 to play for the Dodgers in 1958. He was another local guy.

After a while L.A. Dodgers fans realized that they didn't really want a local team, they wanted a good team. So everybody's favorite player was the "son of a Brooklyn tailor..."

2006-12-17 14:26:28
160.   overkill94
I'm actually really glad there isn't any baseball talk right now. Hasn't everything been talked to death at this point? Do we need another hundred comments explaining why Pierre was a bad signing or the pros/cons of trading Penny? If someone really wants to read about baseball, just go back to the time when any of the transactions occurred.
2006-12-17 14:28:21
161.   xaphor
Any married man, besides D4P, will tell you it is more pertinent where the women who sleep with professional ball players hail from. :)
2006-12-17 14:30:59
162.   shamrok
I just had to say....the dancing, frolicking, stretching football robot thing on Fox is out of control. That is all.
2006-12-17 14:47:27
163.   Bob Timmermann
But what if we don't own a time machine? Or in my case, what do you do if your time machine is in the shop? I've got a loaner, but it only goes back to Thursdays in 1978.
2006-12-17 14:51:07
164.   overkill94
If you don't own a time machine, you're no friend of mine
2006-12-17 14:51:08
165.   xaphor
163. Hypnosis. Had a past life session the other day to discus the Ruth trade in a Boston tavern. Good times.
2006-12-17 14:55:29
166.   Bob Timmermann
I remember this blog from 1888, where a guy got on the telegraph and kept tapping out "ANSON STINKS STOP ANSON STINKS STOP".
2006-12-17 15:00:12
167.   Greg S
This place does not need to change.
Dodger baseball is talked about whenever possible and when it's not, other things are discussed to add flavor as needed.
If we're ever discussing lawnmower features as Marlon Anderson is hitting the 4th home run of the inning, than we can worry about it.
2006-12-17 15:00:50
168.   Bob Timmermann
Mulch or bag?
2006-12-17 15:03:20
169.   Greg S
169. No, I like Marlon Anderson.
2006-12-17 15:05:19
170.   StolenMonkey86 reports about Drew that

"the star outfielder is scheduled to have a second opinion after concerns arose last week about his shoulder during a team-mandated physical."

2006-12-17 15:05:36
171.   Marty
I think there's a better chance of a lawnmower thread than Anderson hitting the fourth homerun in an inning again. Lightning, twice, all that.
2006-12-17 15:08:21
172.   Fallout
160 overkill94

I'm actually really glad there isn't any baseball talk right now. Hasn't everything been talked to death at this point?

I think we need to discuss Hee Seop Choi a little more...

2006-12-17 15:12:53
173.   Robert Daeley
I think where newbies make the mistake is that the site is called Dodger Thoughts, which should be taken literally.

Think about the Dodgers whilst posting on the best movies of the first half of 1978, D4P's issues with women, high school basketball, women's volleyball, and the best place to eat in Reseda.

But few Dodger posts. Thus the confusion.

2006-12-17 15:12:56
174.   xaphor
If we're ever discussing lawnmower features as Marlon Anderson is hitting the 4th home run of the inning, than we can worry about it.

Clearly you are not privy to this:

Eat your heart out Anderson.

2006-12-17 15:14:29
175.   twerp
156 158 IMO, if a player is local it adds a bit of interest, especially for media who now have another angle to cover. That's about it.

I've never thought pro fans bought tickets just because a team might have local players. If someone were on the fence about buying a ticket, it might make a difference. That probably almost never happens. A team might sign a local player over another if everything else were equal, which it probably almost never is. A team is going to act in its perceived best interest.

I don't claim to know much about the California sports scene.

But in TN a lot of folks follow the Titans and still are rabid about UT. The Titans sell out every game and would even if they had no former Tennessee players on the team, even tho they do. Nashville and Knoxville are about 170 miles apart, which probably helps both.

When the Titans were losing there were quite a few empty seats. When UT struggles--not often--I don't think there's much falloff in attendance. SEC games are a cultural experience...among other things.

IMO, in this part of the country college sports are still as strong as pro sports, if not stronger. I think it has to do with tradition and the relative youth of the pro franchises. Let a college team lose a lot and a nearby pro team win, and that might change somewhat.

2006-12-17 15:17:50
176.   berkowit28
170 "The Red Sox are declining comment for now. Drew also declined comment when reached at his Georgia home by the Globe."

So he has a Georgia home, as well as a Pasadena home coveted by Grady Little? And soon a Boston home - a lot of homes...

2006-12-17 15:18:00
177.   das411
Yknow, I've seen a fair amount of Laker Thoughts recently, and there is the occasional football mention, but doesn't LA have one other pro sports team playing this time of year?
2006-12-17 15:19:32
178.   xaphor
The LA Galaxy season has ended. :)
2006-12-17 15:23:13
179.   Marty
USC is off until New Years
2006-12-17 15:24:09
180.   xaphor
The Kings stink and I haven't payed much attention since the lockout. How about them Flyers?
2006-12-17 15:25:09
181.   overkill94
177 The Rams moved to St. Louis like 10 years ago
2006-12-17 15:25:51
182.   Andrew Shimmin
Now that the off-topic topic has been settled, we have to decide how to purge the dissenters. There was an offer, awhile ago, to take Xei off the grid (don't bother looking for it; it's not there anymore). But what do we do about the other enemies of the people?
2006-12-17 15:27:22
183.   twerp
Combining lawnmower and baseball threads, have the wheels come off the Drew signing?
2006-12-17 15:27:26
184.   Icaros

And they're beating the Raiders in Oakland as we speak. Unfortunately, the game is blacked out here because nobody is climbing Mt. Davis.

2006-12-17 15:29:00
185.   overkill94
182 A super-secret, well-trained army of Thought Police
2006-12-17 15:31:02
186.   Andrew Shimmin
184- Doesn't that drive you crazy? I'm watching Anti-semite hour on CSPAN2 because the Sunday row re-runs are preempted for the same shot of a helicopter that's been on for an hour.
2006-12-17 15:33:12
187.   Fallout
I understand that the doctor became suspicious of Drew's shoulder when Drew removed his arm and laid it on the table during the physical.
2006-12-17 15:34:27
188.   Icaros
Watching football on Gamecast leaves you feeling really empty.
2006-12-17 15:36:18
189.   berkowit28
129 130
So Toby Hall is going to the Chicago White Sox as a backup catcher. That's no different than he was here, where he was so disgruntled about it. Is he likely to get more playing time there? Or just more money? He's getting more there (c$1.75 mil per year for 2 years) than Lieberthal is getting here ($1.15 mil for 1 year). What do you suppose he would have got here if he had expressed willingness to be an occaisonal backup for Martin, instead of complaining about it? He got $2.25 mil last year and would probably have got more had the Dodgers offered arbitration instead of taking on Lieberthal. Which is perhaps why they did so. But you wonder how he might have helped himself had he gauged the market better and shown himself to be a happy camper earlier.
2006-12-17 15:42:01
190.   overkill94
Pride can be a tough thing to swallow
2006-12-17 15:46:24
191.   overkill94
Come on Rams, keep that shutout intact, my fantasy team needs it!
2006-12-17 15:48:45
192.   xaphor
189. There is the possibility Ned would have gone after Lieberthal anyway and left Toby out to pasture.

More importantly is this the writing on the wall for Hendrickson now his personal catcher has parted ways. :)

2006-12-17 15:49:02
193.   overkill94
Woo hoo! 3rd interception of the day! I am a fantasy football genius!
2006-12-17 15:51:45
194.   StolenMonkey86
189 - I think Martin will get more playing time than Pierzynski. AJ started 124 games in 2005 and 126 in 2006. Martin started 114 major league games, and he wasn't even on the big club in April, which would have easily pushed his total at 130 or higher.

Interestingly, Pierzynski's contract is up after the end of the 2008 season, and the option year is cheap enough that Hall could get one year as a starter and then go on the market for something more lucrative. Like with the Giants.

2006-12-17 15:53:23
195.   Icaros
Betting on this year's Rams defense for fantasy anything is a gutsy move, maybe psychotic.
2006-12-17 15:56:36
196.   Bob Timmermann
What you mentioned does hold true in smaller media markets, but in LA, fans seem to forget collegiate affiliations especially in the NFL.

The best examples are Troy Aikman and Bill Kilmer, both of whom started Super Bowls in their old collegiate stadiums. There never was any angle played up about that as I recall.

Even Kareem Abdul Jabbar and Gail Goodrich had separate identities it seemed as college and pro players.

However my brother in St.Louis always has to mention the hometown and high school of any pro athlete who even wandered through Lambert Airport to make a connection.

The big thing about Angelenos is that, for the most part still, we are not from here. So we don't care as much about a kid from "the neighborhood."

2006-12-17 16:09:10
197.   overkill94
195Sometimes you just gotta say "what the hell"

What's ironic is that the 27 points they've gotten me has proved to be the difference that will get me to the championship game as long as Antonio Gates doesn't have a career day.

2006-12-17 16:17:03
198.   overkill94
Come on Eli, I need a cheap touchdown to pad my lead
2006-12-17 16:17:22
199.   das411
180 - They are why I am asking about the Kings!

194 - You mean the Giants wouldn't want AJ back??

2006-12-17 16:17:45
200.   Steve
What about Reds Thoughts?

"I want to find a club where that stuff doesn't happen, where you tell them not to make a move and they go ahead and do it," Barton said. "Those were two pretty bad trades - Washington and the (Eddie) Guardado deal. There's a whole list of things I'm not going to go into."

Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2006-12-17 16:20:03
201.   overkill94
Who's Barton?
2006-12-17 16:27:58
202.   King of the Hobos
201 Reds Special Assistant who recently stpped down because he disliked Krivsky. He's one of two high ranking Reds officials who have recently left. Apparently Krivsky won't listen to guys he didn't hire, or that's what the guys seem to have said.
2006-12-17 17:35:53
203.   alex 7
it's not so much using the Rams D for defense, it's using whatever D the Raiders are going against. That's his genius move.
2006-12-17 17:38:20
204.   Vishal
[155] that put the amusing image of brad penny bodyslamming jeff weaver in my head, but really, how often do rotations line up so that #3 faces #3? with staggered off days and what have you, within a month of the season, you lose that alignment of #1 facing #1, and so on. i know teams sometimes try to use their off days to get their ace more starts against the opposing team's ace, but i just can't imagine that it lines up more often than not.
2006-12-17 17:47:39
205.   Midwest Blue
Hey Alex, Do you know if the Raiders get the #1 NFL draft pick if they tie with Detroit for the worst regular season record? Is it based on strength schedule? A coin flip? Anyone?
2006-12-17 17:51:34
206.   Bob Timmermann
Strength of schedule is the tiebreaker for draft position with the exception that the Super Bowl winner always goes last and the Super Bowl loser goes nexts to last.

Oakland's strength of schedule is .536 and Detroit is at .500.

The Raiders play the Chiefs and Jets.
The Lions play the Bears and Cowboys.

It will be close!

2006-12-17 17:55:15
207.   Midwest Blue
I actually should root for the Detroit to beat the Bears and/or the Cowboys (I have confidence the Raiders will mail it in for the last two as they did today).

The only good thing about a Bear loss next week in Detroit is that they've already sewn up home-field advantage thoughout the playoffs, so a loss is meaningless.

Go Lions!

2006-12-17 17:59:44
208.   trainwreck
Wow people talking about my Raiders at DT. Man, do we suck.
2006-12-17 18:01:41
209.   trainwreck
We do not have to mail it in.
2006-12-17 18:05:54
210.   John Siv
42 Thank you for that comment. It's interesting. Could there be classes of players for whom it is impossible to change approach when the game situation dictates? Is doing so even considered a viable strategy at the major-league level? I think it's possible at some level of play to try for the sac fly or to make sure that if you make an out it's to the right side, but it could be the case that at the major league level, at least for some players, that's not a reasonable expectation.

That said, Drew's laid down a sweet, sweet bunt for a hit in the at-bat following a long home run. So, he's at least marginally flexible in this regard. I suppose it remains to be determined if there's a third option, between normal hitting and bunting, that players can engage.

2006-12-17 18:10:09
211.   Midwest Blue
209 We don't have to -- but we will. Do you think Shell deserves another year? Or would you fire him and his coaches and try to lure someone like Ron Rivera?
2006-12-17 18:11:14
212.   Midwest Blue
Oh and Xei, Which do you hate more: Talking movies on DT or football?
2006-12-17 18:12:31
213.   Jason in Canada
Does anyone have know why on earth Toronto would want to trade Rios? Because they signed Wells to a mega-contract, sooo... they have no use for a bargain player like Rios who is under their control for four more years... Not commplaining if he were to come here though..

208 These are sad times to be a Raider fan.

2006-12-17 18:17:08
214.   trainwreck
Fire him. The man is clueless. He makes Karl Dorrell look like Bill Lombardi. I would go for an offensive coach. I would offer a huge amount of money and a ton of control to Bobby Petrino.
2006-12-17 18:18:39
215.   Vishal
who do you guys think the #1 draft pick will be, anyway?
2006-12-17 18:18:48
216.   Midwest Blue
213 Actually, I believe that the Raiders are a couple of decent O lineman, a QB, a good RB, and a great caoch who inspires away from being a real good team.

That sounds like a lot, but the Raiders may be ble to draft and trade for a good QB and RB and maybe pick-up some linemen through free agency. But AL needs to cede control and bring in a great modern-day coach.

I'm not sure he will do that so the odds are greatly in favor of continued mediocrity.

2006-12-17 18:20:38
217.   Midwest Blue
215 I think it depends on what the Raiders do in a trade. If they can pull off a trade for Michael Vick, then they can afford to draft the best RB. No tQB trade and they'll have to go for Brady Quinn.
2006-12-17 18:22:08
218.   trainwreck
We still need to improve the defensive line. We give up too many rushing yards and we basically have one guy that can get cosntant pressure on the qb in Burgess, although Sapp does a good job of it.

I would welcome mediocrity!

Adrian Peterson. Heard Kevin Jones could be done and the Raiders do not draft Qbs early.

2006-12-17 18:25:40
219.   trainwreck
Michael Vick cannot be traded it is too big of a salary cap hit for the Falcons, plus he is a marketing bonanza.
2006-12-17 18:29:38
220.   tjshere
Weighing in on 1: If I'm trying to catch up on all the comments in a thread that contains Dodger news/issues that interest me a great deal, it can be a bit of a pain to wade through all the extraneous stuff that may be littered throughout the thread. Not a big deal, but it is a minor nuisance.

However, at times like these when baseball news is slow and most viable topics have been discussed ad nauseum I kind of get a kick out of the off-topic discussions. I enjoy all the good-natured ribbing and the sense of camaraderie that goes with it. For some reason it helps me feel more like one of the guys even though I don't actively participate much.

Just my 2 coppers.

2006-12-17 18:35:20
221.   Vishal
[218] why don't they? i'd be surprised if they would have no interest in seeing, say, troy smith in a raider uniform.

is adrian peterson really that good? i've always felt he was overhyped.

2006-12-17 18:48:35
222.   trainwreck
I think since Marinovich, Al has been scared off by first qbs. The bust level for first round qbs is very high.

Adrian Peterson is awesome. His only problem is that he tries to run to powerful at times, causing him to be too stiff and upright, but that can easily be fixed. He is a definite workhorse back.

2006-12-17 18:50:22
223.   trainwreck
*by first round QBs.
2006-12-17 18:52:40
224.   Jason in Canada
I have a sneaking feeling that Quinn won't be the answer at QB.. Don't know how to qualify that.. (Other than he beingg from Notre Dame)

And I kind of think that Rios would take too muck to get from the Dodgers.

P.S. I'm combing both extra curricular and Dodger comments as not to totally offend anyone group. ;)

2006-12-17 19:05:37
225.   Vishal
[222] but the flip side of that coin is that oakland has never had a truly great quarterback. perhaps ken stabler is the closest they got, but he's not in the hall of fame, is he?
2006-12-17 19:08:30
226.   Marty
Daryle Lamonica?
2006-12-17 19:15:09
227.   Vishal
[226] i suppose. those were both 3 decades or more ago though, which is a bit of a drought.
2006-12-17 19:15:50
228.   tjshere
226 The Mad Bomber was awesome! I used to love to watch him play when I was a kid. And I'm a Trojan fan!
2006-12-17 19:17:20
229.   trainwreck
Jim Plunkett. MVP Rich Gannon.
2006-12-17 19:23:45
230.   Vishal
when i think of gannon, i don't think "great quarterback". i think of the bad guy in the legend of zelda.
2006-12-17 19:30:19
231.   Andrew Shimmin
An exhaustive list of eighteen year olds who should have op-eds in the Sunday Washington Post:
2006-12-17 19:33:58
232.   trainwreck
As you should.
2006-12-17 20:19:13
233.   ToyCannon
Dead on.
2006-12-17 20:35:30
234.   Bumsrap
Hypnosis. Had a past life session the other day to discus the Ruth trade in a Boston tavern. Good times.

Which one were you--Ruth or the other drunk he was talking with?

2006-12-18 05:48:26
235.   50 years a Dodger Fan
Wouldn't that be a wonderful Christmas present, if Boston tears up that contract and says,"No way"? Drew, following Boras' advice, would have screwed himself out of $33M. He'd probably still manage to get a $6M incentive laden contract or something like that. That's more money than I'll ever see in my life but still a good comedown for him...
2006-12-18 06:32:14
236.   twerp
214 Bill Lombardi is Vince's evil twin, right? :))

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