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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Larry King Is Wrong
2007-03-07 23:21
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

The problem with doing sports on Larry King Live at 9 o'clock eastern is six out of seven nights there's a sporting event on opposite us. So if we have Sandy Koufax on and it's April and baseball has started and you're in Los Angeles and you're a Dodger fan and the Dodgers are playing the Mets and it's 7:30 (when the) game starts and I've got Sandy Koufax on in the 4th inning, talking to him for an hour, you're liable to watch the Dodger-Met game. So the theory is sports wouldn't play much there.

- Larry King

No, we're watching Koufax. Oh, and by the way - you could always do the interview in the winter.

* * *

Meanwhile, Joel Guzman lives, reports Eduardo Encina of the St. Petersburg Times:

Considered a superstar and then a superdud by the Dodgers in the space of a few months, Guzman is showing that maybe, just maybe, his career isn't over at 22. He can even have that same spring in his Spring Training step that everyone else has.

Even though most of the attention was on Guzman's bat, he is now showing he has the range to play third after dropping 15 pounds in the offseason while honing his discipline at the plate.

Starting at third base Wednesday in the Rays' 10-2 loss to Cleveland, Guzman hit his first spring home run. He battled back from an 0-and-2 hole to run the count to 2 and 2, then fought off another pitch. He ended the six-pitch at-bat by taking starter Jeremy Sowers' up-and-in cutter over the left-centerfield fence.

"I fell behind, so I stayed in my at-bat and waited for the pitcher to make a mistake," he said. "I just tried to protect the zone and use my hands."

"I'm on board with this guy," Rays manager Joe Maddon said. "He's capable of a killer year. If he goes killer in the minor leagues, heads up, because with him it's going to be all about confidence. If his confidence soars, he could be very special."

Guzman, 22, concentrated on his fielding while playing in the Dominican Winter League, especially his agility at third. His weight dropped to 230 pounds, some 20 less than his playing weight last spring.

"I liked that they gave me another opportunity to stay in the infield," he said. "That's what I kept thinking about in the winter, keeping my body in shape and emphasizing that - fielding, fielding, fielding. I'm still learning. At third base, it's all about reaction, so that's why I need to keep my body in shape so I can go either way quickly."

If that isn't enough of a blast from the past for you, here's another mythbuster to quake the overnights: Paul DePodesta values defense, reports Tom Krasovic of the San Diego Union Tribune.

Defensive performance isn't easily measured, and certainly offense and pitching are far more important. Still, the Padres clearly were a solid team defensively last season, and the benefits were real.

"The fact that we led the majors in defensive efficiency certainly had something to do with us winning the division," said DePodesta, a former Dodgers general manager who in July joined the Padres as a special assistant for baseball operations.

Having judged defenders both as a major league scout and a statistical analyst, DePodesta brings a broad set of evaluation skills, and he also has access to extensive scouting reports and proprietary data. He considers it significant that in 2006 the Padres were ranked first in team defense by Baseball Information Solutions, which uses a plus-minus system and has scouts review video of every play in the majors.

"It may be like the turnover ratio in the NFL," DePodesta said. "If you can limit the minus plays, you should be in good shape. You'd love to have spectacular plays by your defense, but if you can limit the minus plays, you should be in good shape."

DePodesta considers scouting integral to the evaluation of defense, partly because scouts can see where the fielder was positioned before the ball was hit. He also looks at how one fielder can affect another. For example, does a rangy center fielder such as the Padres' Mike Cameron allow the corner outfielders to shade toward the foul lines? He also considers the relationship between the pitchers and the fielders.

* * *

Updates aplenty: Remember the guy who was able to use an appearance at Dodger Stadium on Curb Your Enthusiasm as an alibi? He just got a $320,000 settlement for his troubles, reports The Associated Press:

The Los Angeles City Council agreed Wednesday to settle the police misconduct lawsuit filed by Juan Catalan, who spent nearly five months in jail before footage from the show cemented his alibi.

Catalan, 28, was arrested for the May 2003 slaying of Martha Puebla, 16, outside her Sun Valley home. He told detectives he was innocent and was at a Dodgers game when the crime occurred.

His defense lawyer, Todd Melnik, went through footage of crowd shots from the televised game between the Dodgers and the Atlanta Braves, but did not find his client. Then he learned that the HBO comedy starring former "Seinfeld" co-creator Larry David had been shooting at the ballpark that day.

"There he was in the outtakes," said Gary S. Casselman, the attorney handling Catalan's lawsuit. "He's glad it's over." ...

Someone else is now being prosecuted for the slaying, Casselman said.

Here's more of the backstory:

Remember that miserable Dodger game a year ago, when Eric Gagne got torched for four runs in the 10th inning and the Dodgers lost, 11-4, to Atlanta?

That was the highlight of one Dodger fan's year.

Juan Catalan spent 5 1/2 months in jail, accused of murder, until his alibi was validated, according to The Associated Press - by the Dodgers and Larry David.

Or something like that.

Catalan ... had ticket stubs from the game and testimony from his family as to his whereabouts the night (Martha) Puebla was killed. But police still believed he was responsible, saying they had a witness who placed Catalan at the scene of the slaying. ...

Defense attorney Todd Melnik subpoenaed the Dodgers and Fox Networks, which owned the team then, to scan videotape of the televised baseball game and footage from its "Dodger Vision" cameras. Some of the videotapes showed where Catalan was sitting but Melnik couldn't make him out.

Melnik later learned that HBO was filming the Curb Your Enthusiasm episode where David hires a prostitute, so that he can take the carpool lane to Dodger Stadium (a carpool lane that, by the way, I'm not sure exists). Melnik reviewed the raw footage.

"I got to one of the scenes, and there is my client sitting in a corner of the frame eating a hot dog with his daughter," Melnik said. "I nearly jumped out of my chair and said, 'There he is!'"

The tapes had time codes that allowed Melnik to find out exactly when Catalan was at the ballpark. ...

Catalan, who could have faced the death penalty had he been convicted of murder, was released in January because a judge ruled there was no evidence to try him.

The murder is still unsolved.

Update: Kevin Roderick at L.A. Observed notes that Jeffrey Toobin of The New Yorker has the story in this week's issue.

"It sounded very cool because my life is so lacking in anything interesting," David said last week. "It did seem like kind of a lame story, but I told the lawyer, 'Go ahead, go crazy. Look at anything you want.' And we hooked him up with everything from the stadium, all the footage we shot that night." On the day that Melnik came in to see the tapes, David at first left him to watch on his own, but later he stuck his head in the editing room, where the lawyer was examining the footage.

"I'm there for maybe five minutes, and the lawyer screams out, 'There he is!'" David recalled. "We couldn't believe it. We rewound the tape, and just as I'm walking up the aisle in one shot, this guy is sitting right there. And then there was another shot where he was standing up." Melnik said, "Jesus Christ, if I didn't jump three feet in the air! It was totally a eureka moment."

* * *

At Baseball Analysts, Jeff Albert analyzes former Dodger Adrian Beltre's swing - with video. Here's an excerpt:

More bat speed does not always equal more power. The small matter of making consistent, hard contact comes into play. Looking at the stride foot of each swing, 2004 Beltre looks to begin his swing slightly later, which may mean that he is getting a better, longer look at the ball. This would allow him to process more information about the oncoming pitch, and the stats say he was producing enough bat speed to put up great power numbers.

I know the popular explanations for Beltre's fluke year are either psychological or pharmaceutical, but in the absence of proof of either of those, it's nice to see other avenues pursued.

* * *

For a different kind of video, check out this interpretation of the classic Danny Kaye-sung Dodger song, passed along by Josh Rawitch at Inside the Dodgers.

* * *

Finally (?), happy birthday to us! I've never had a toaster that lasted this long or was so great to use.

Comments (212)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-03-07 23:30:39
1.   the IQ of Pedro Guerrero
Hey Larry

[cough]tivo[cough]

2007-03-07 23:33:31
2.   Jon Weisman
1 - Larry's probably worried you'll miss his commercial for Emergen-C or some such.
2007-03-07 23:36:27
3.   Bob Timmermann
I'm still making it through my version of The Bible on tape read by Larry King.
2007-03-07 23:43:28
4.   Steve
Other recent discoveries:

1) Men once walked on the moon
2) Water is wet
3) D4P cries at weddings

2007-03-07 23:49:53
5.   trainwreck
Stephen Colbert just did a piece on my city!
2007-03-08 00:09:06
6.   bhsportsguy
Jon, the Gary Matthews' saga is taking on a life of its own per T.J. Simers

http://tinyurl.com/2pqn84

Arte, you're powerless," I suggested, just like every other baseball fan who would like to know what's going on with Matthews.

"I'm not powerless," Moreno said.

"There's going to be no quick resolve here, Arte, so there goes your promise to have it resolved by opening day," I said.

"That's your opinion," Moreno said. "I made my statement. I'm very unhappy and I want it resolved. The ball is in his court, and I'm not going to make a new decision every day. Eventually, I'm going to have to make a decision, taking the best information I have into account, and then make that call."

"What does that mean?"

"I don't want to get into any kind of negotiation in the paper," he said. "I'm not going to answer that question."

I have no idea how Matthews can resolve this short of stating that he did not take HGH and then sitting on pins and needles waiting for an indictment. What else could he say to Moreno and Stoneman to placate them, especially Arte.

2007-03-08 00:48:38
7.   trainwreck
If Vlad's name got linked to HGH, would Arte react the same way?
2007-03-08 00:51:32
8.   Xeifrank
Automatic join to the Friends of Dodger Thoughts yahoo fantasy baseball league. We are almost full and drafting monday at 845pm. Join and compete against some of your favorite and least favorite DT members. :) vr, Xei
Join link: http://tinyurl.com/2v9zd
2007-03-08 01:18:33
9.   El Lay Dave
On the one hand, I can watch an interview of Koufax; on the other hand, I'd have to watch Larry King conduct it. Classic example of dilemma.
2007-03-08 04:35:35
10.   Sam DC
This is just a joke, but did anyone else of a flash of wonder if DePodesta had been reading over here when folks discussed how new stats seem more readily accepted in football than baseball when he referenced turnover ration?
2007-03-08 04:39:42
11.   Sam DC
And who translated DePodesta's words from the ones and zeros?
2007-03-08 06:32:12
12.   Terry A
11 - Thanks for the pre-coffee LOL this morning, Sam.
2007-03-08 06:51:19
13.   Gen3Blue
Hey Mo

Its good to know DePodesta appreciated that 2004 infield.

2007-03-08 07:00:41
14.   Sam DC
Joe Thurston survived the first round of cuts at Nationals camp.

Tony Womack did not. Proven Veteran with a Ring available Mr. Colletti! Don't let Sabean get the jump on you.

2007-03-08 07:13:31
15.   chazmac138
3.
Is that you Homer Simpson?
2007-03-08 07:19:42
16.   ToyCannon
Giving Depo credit for the Padre defense last year would be like giving Ned credit for the Dodger title. Other then Branyan not one player was acquired after they hired Depo who would have contributed to that stellar defense and Branyan is no Brooks Robinson. Doesn't anyone find the word "proprietary" curious when applied to his data. Does that mean he brought his own metrics from Oakland and then didn't share them within the Dodger organization?

Nice of JtD to lose 15 pounds after the team gave up on him because he didn't have the quickness anymore to stay in the infield.

2007-03-08 07:27:32
17.   ToyCannon
8
That link does not work for me.
2007-03-08 07:34:03
18.   Sam DC
Anyone else read the title of this Post in Marisa Tomei's My Cousin Vinny voice?
2007-03-08 07:35:04
19.   Sushirabbit
10,11 Oswald.
2007-03-08 07:38:31
20.   ToyCannon
Maybe some positive info on Brad Penny from Baseball HQ:

"Penny struggles early this spring...After struggling through much of the second half of last year it is likely Brad Penny (RHP, LA)was really hoping to get off to a good start this spring. He did pitch a couple of scoreless innings last Saturday but on Wednesday he gave 6 runs on 7 hits in just 2 IP. What happened to the All-Star game starter who went 10-2 during the first half of the season with a sub 3.00 ERA? His monthly splits give a clear indication of what is to blame.

Month IP ERA H% S% Ctl Dom Cmd hr/9 xERA
===== == ==== === === === === === ==== ====
Apr 31 2.32 27% 79% 1.5 7.5 5.2 0.6 3.21
May 31 3.41 34% 75% 3.4 5.7 1.7 0.0 4.18
Jun 38 3.05 28% 77% 2.1 7.0 3.3 0.9 3.26
Jul 24 6.00 37% 65% 2.6 6.0 2.3 1.1 3.99
Aug 35 5.14 27% 65% 3.6 7.2 2.1 1.5 3.72
Sep 29 6.83 44% 63% 2.2 8.7 4.0 1.2 3.64
Penny reported that at the end of last year he was suffering from back spasms, suggesting those may have contributed to his decline. Another possible reason was he decided to stop throwing his split-finger change-up mid-season out of fear of arm trouble. And his 189 IP last year were the most since 2003, which led others to speculate that his conditioning might have played a factor in his limping down the stretch. But ultimately his monthly BPI's suggest that nothing had more of an effect on his numbers than bad luck. His hr/9 increased a little during the season, but not enough to make such a big difference. The higher H% and lower S% were more likely the culprits for his struggles as his xERA remained fairly consistent across the months.

He has reported to camp lighter this season, so any conditioning problems should be less of a concern. Forget his 2nd half numbers and focus on a 28-year-old pitcher who has shown strong skills over the last several seasons..."

2007-03-08 07:44:21
21.   Sam DC
Guy who writes this Nats minors blog (http://www.farmauthority.dcsportsnet.com/)was down in ST and offered this report on Marlon Anderson tradee Jhonny Nunez:

"Jhonny Nunez - he looked great; coaches gathered around to watch his session; Brian Peacock said he was the most impressive guy he'd caught; couldn't find a coach that wasn't intrigued about him."

2007-03-08 07:54:07
22.   Jon Weisman
16 - I wasn't saying that DePo should be credited for the Padre defense last year - just that he valued it. As for Guzman, the Dodgers didn't give him much of a chance to regain a positive attitude. Not that this isn't the typical Spring Training we'll-see-if-it-holds-up resolution we hear from about everyone, but it shows he's capable of at least trying.
2007-03-08 07:58:13
23.   Sam DC
Whhaaa?

http://tinyurl.com/27oa94

(ridiculous column with the invisible subtitle "Lord, what fools these bloggers be!")

2007-03-08 07:58:36
24.   ToyCannon
16
I know you weren't but it seemed the writer was, since he was writing about how great the Padre's defense was and how Depo values defense. Maybe I read to much into it but to me it it was like a writer talking about how Ned loves Lowe/Kent and what they bring to the game and then mentioning that with Lowe and Kent on the team they won the Division title and neglecting to mention that Ned had nothing to do with bringing Kent/Lowe to the team just like Depo had nothing to do with the current makeup of the Padre defense that was so good.
2007-03-08 08:04:03
25.   ToyCannon
24 should have referenced 22 not 16
2007-03-08 08:14:22
26.   Daniel Zappala
23 So bloggers use too many obscure stats, yet they're irrational and ill-informed. I get it. Bloggers are the new evil empire.
2007-03-08 08:31:39
27.   D4P
Joel Guzman's spring training line thus far:

.182/.182/.545

(Don't try that at home...)

2007-03-08 08:33:58
28.   Jon Weisman
Updates to this post up middle.
2007-03-08 08:36:04
29.   Benaiah
23 - The funny thing is that he completely misunderstands bloggers and what they focus on. I kept wondering if it was some sort of parody of people mocking bloggers. I could see an article on people focusing too much on spring statistics ("Oh look Beltre is only batting .222 in 9 Spring At Bats, the M's are doomed"), but does anyone care about spring strategy? At this point it seems that anyone remotely "established" feels like they have a moral need to attack "bloggers" as poorly informed chicken littles. Yeah, well the M's are going to be terrible this year and Studio 60 ended up getting canceled, so enjoy the moral high ground until 2008, when your paper is strictly on the net.
2007-03-08 08:38:55
30.   PHilldodger
Comment on the Jeff Albert article. In 2004, didn't Beltre play much of the year with bone spurs or some other foot ailment? And that he couldn't stride hard on his lead leg as he had in previous years, altering his stride/swing?
I could be imagining this. Any help would be appreciated.
2007-03-08 08:42:03
31.   Benaiah
30 - No he definitely had bone spurs, and some people said that might have helped him.
2007-03-08 09:07:27
32.   ToyCannon
That is a scary story. This man came very close to having his life completely ruined if not for blind luck and a good lawyer.
I'm surprised he settled for a mere 325,000 considering how defiant the police appeared to be in this case considering they had no physical evidence to support the case.
2007-03-08 09:12:03
33.   ToyCannon
He hired Boras, he left us, but I'm still pulling for Beltre because 2004 was as good as it gets for me. It is like all you guys pulling for Kemp, Loney, and La Roche and then watching them have average careers and then one day they are fighting Miggy for the MVP. It will take a Dodger Playoff Series victory to get me to forget the 2004 season with Beltre and Lima time capped off by the greatest playoff pitching performance by a piece of crap pitcher in history. Don't fine me for the hyperbole. It is spring time after all:)
2007-03-08 09:21:15
34.   berkowit28
28 I wondered why these were all added as updates rather than as new posts, or one new post at least. Just so you could say "New post up middle", perhaps? I liked that. And maybe not interrupt a discussion (though you'll eventually have to do so).
2007-03-08 09:22:35
35.   twerp
What has happened with the guy who was signed out of the recent tryout camp?
2007-03-08 09:24:25
36.   Shotupthemiddle
33 Would Don Larsen be considered a "piece of crap pitcher"?

If so, I'll go with him.

2007-03-08 09:33:42
37.   Jon Weisman
Great tag-team interviews with Alex Belth and Joe Posnanski:

https://bronxbanter.baseballtoaster.com/archives/600704.html

http://thesoulofbaseball.blogspot.com/2007/03/al-east-with-alex-belth.html

2007-03-08 09:38:01
38.   LAT
14. I would love to see Joe Thurston catch on with the Nats. He has toiled in the minors so long it would be nice if he could get at least one ML season. Plus he was very nice the few times my daughter and I met him during Sept. call up.
2007-03-08 09:40:58
39.   LAT
This may be a dumb question but how does the Matthews situation ever get resolved? Even if it is established he bought the HGH, how can they prove he used it or used it during baseball season. My understanding is there is no reliable test for HGH. Can MLB or Arte ever establish that he took the stuff while ing baseball? If not, isn't this a moot.
2007-03-08 09:42:33
40.   JoeyP
I never knew that Joel Guzman was playing at 250# last year.
2007-03-08 09:42:33
41.   Xeifrank
35. I believe he is spending the whole day at the PAC-10 tournament.
vr, Xei
2007-03-08 09:45:35
42.   ToyCannon
That is a nice painting of Nomar by Tomko over at Dodger.com. Wouldn't mind that hanging in my house.
2007-03-08 09:58:35
43.   Jon Weisman
34 - I don't have a consistent policy, but basically, I do know a lot of people come to DT via the sidebar, and since I posted this so late last night, I thought adding a new post might cause them to miss the all-important musing about Larry King.

As far as interrupting a discussion, sometimes I try not to, but overall I can't be a slave to the comments, because there's almost always a discussion and I'd never be able to make a new post if I waited for it to end.

2007-03-08 10:04:26
44.   Bob Timmermann
The ad for KFWB and the Dodgers that is up at Union Station still features Eric Gagne.

Then again, the tourism L.A. ads feature Ted McGinley which makes me think the city will be consumed by a nuclear holocaust.

2007-03-08 10:14:26
45.   twerp
From USA Today on Dodger small ball==

In a team outlook story, after Kent and Nomar say they're not worried about lack of Dodger power, is this from Grady==

"Little thinks that Betemit, a switch-hitter, will hit with more power now that he's not so concerned about his playing time."

Hmmm...

http://tinyurl.com/2mqp85

2007-03-08 10:23:19
46.   Jon Weisman
How many of the Definitive 200 do you have?

http://www.rockhall.com/pressroom/definitive-200

I have ... not as many as you.

2007-03-08 10:26:01
47.   D4P
46
I have nine
2007-03-08 10:27:09
48.   BlueCrew Bruin
29 Studio 60 got cancelled?
2007-03-08 10:29:00
49.   Benaiah
48 - Not yet, but it will.

46 - That is a terrible, terrible list. Blonde on Blonde isn't one of the top 200 albums ever? Give me a break.

2007-03-08 10:31:17
50.   BlueCrew Bruin
46 Wow...Kid Rock...wow.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-03-08 10:34:37
51.   Dark Horse
49-Not only that, but Al Green's Call Me edges in just ahead of Live's Throwing Copper (thank heavens for small mercies) but behind...Shakira's Laundry Service?

One could pick that list to pieces, and then those pieces to pieces, but it's really not worth eviscerating. As a guy with upwards of 10,000 CDs in his collection--enough to know that 'definitive' doesn't really exist, but if it did it would exclude more than half of the records listed here--I might know whereof I speak in this arena, at least.

2007-03-08 10:35:56
52.   Jon Weisman
47 - Okay, I have more than you.

It's tough to answer, though, because sometimes I have most of the same songs but on a greatest-hits album. And other times, I had it as a tape once, but some of my tapes were casualties of the Northridge quake and were not replaced.

2007-03-08 10:36:26
53.   Jon Weisman
51 - Yeah, it's not really definitive for me - more of a conversation starter.
2007-03-08 10:37:36
54.   D4P
It's tough to answer, though, because sometimes I have most of the same songs but on a greatest-hits album. And other times, I had it as a tape once

Exactly. And, are we talking (1) legal, or (2) otherwise, copies? Not that that would change anything, of course...

2007-03-08 10:39:24
55.   Benaiah
46 - I have 12. That list is a ploy to sell records. Shania Twain at 21, Beyonce's latest makes the cut with Avril Lavigne and Creed. Natalie Cole makes the list but Nat King Cole doesn't. Christina Aguilera at 127 Frank Sinatra – In the Wee Small Hours is 140. Here is a much better list:

http://tinyurl.com/h82st

2007-03-08 10:40:34
56.   Marty
I have 21 currently. At one time or another I've owned about 45.
2007-03-08 10:40:59
57.   Benaiah
555 - That 12 is full, legal versions, I have bits and pieces of half the list.
2007-03-08 10:41:01
58.   Marty
And I take issue with some on the list. Boston?????
2007-03-08 10:45:13
59.   Daniel Zappala
I have 7, several of which are LPs.
2007-03-08 11:08:42
60.   ToyCannon
59
2007-03-08 11:10:03
61.   Doug N
way, way, completely off topic:

im at vero for what will probably be the last time, and enjoying it as always. ive got a few pictures on flickr and will add more over the next couple of nights, if anyone is interested:

http://tinyurl.com/2mxdf4

Jon, or any blogger, is welcome to use them on their sites if they want.

i've already decided to go to arizona in 2009.

2007-03-08 11:10:09
62.   ToyCannon
55
Yes, much better.
2007-03-08 11:24:28
63.   Benaiah
62 - I am a huge Dylan fan, so that is the big thing I notice. 5 Dylan albums in the top 100, and 10 overall make the Rolling Stone list. 3 total make the other list, not including "Blonde on Blonde" which is #9 on Rolling Stone's list.

I don't even understand the criteria of the other list. Where they trying to make a list that just represented everyone? Where every single person who liked any type of music probably had something they liked on the list. That is my only explanation.

2007-03-08 11:29:06
64.   regfairfield
Enya is not rock and roll. Also, any top anything list that has the word "Linkin" in it is by definition useless. Therefore, I feel no shame that own five.

But I guess not owning any Avril Lavigne albums makes me lose all credibility.

2007-03-08 11:41:40
65.   Steve
BP:

"On the opposite side of the ledger, a fielder's choice typically results in an out on a forced runner and so it is slightly negative overall (-1.3%), while strikeouts (-2.7%) are slightly more costly than other outs (-2.5%), and caught stealing (-4.2%) are much more costly than either. Pickoffs, on the other hand, are less costly than caught stealings since they include both pickoffs that are successful and the 30% that result in errors by the defense. The category of "other advancement" ends up being the most costly, since the vast majority record runners thrown out attempting to advance after a batted ball, which is especially costly when runners are thrown out attempting to score."

2007-03-08 11:43:24
66.   D4P
I took the "definitive" list not to be a "best" list, but rather more along the lines of innovation and influence on other artists. It's possible for an album to be creative and usher in a new sound or genre without necessarily being all that enjoyable to listen to.
2007-03-08 11:47:50
67.   Eric Enders
I have 43, including a few I'm embarrassed to admit I own (e.g. Jewel).

It's really a pretty lousy list. The "Titanic" soundtrack but not "Nebraska"? If this list is still on the web 20 years from now, people will look back and scoff that it includes Kenny G but not "Yankee Hotel Foxtrot," just to name one. It'll be like Gigi winning best picture.

Even when they got the artist right, they got the wrong albums. No Astral Weeks, Taking the Long Way, or Parsley Sage Rosemary & Thyme?

My personal faves from the list:
PEARL JAM – TEN
BRUCE SPRINGSTEEN – BORN TO RUN
MILES DAVIS – KIND OF BLUE
MARVIN GAYE – WHAT'S GOING ON
JONI MITCHELL – BLUE
REM – AUTOMATIC FOR THE PEOPLE
JOHNNY CASH – AT FOLSOM PRISON
CLASH – LONDON CALLING
BEATLES – RUBBER SOUL
PUBLIC ENEMY – IT TAKES A NATION OF MILLIONS TO HOLD US BACK
BOB DYLAN – BLOOD ON THE TRACKS
CURTIS MAYFIELD – SUPERFLY

2007-03-08 11:49:01
68.   regfairfield
66 I think it still misses on that account. Who has Avril Lavigne influenced? Live? If we're going by influence then something by Nine Inch Nails has to be on there. While Trent Reznor is a musical genius, he's inspired every crappy band that's out there today. I'd argue that the musical world would have been a better place without him, despite the fact we'd lose a couple good albums.
2007-03-08 11:49:41
69.   Eric Enders
66 Yeah, thank god for all the innovation and influence Celine Dion has wrought. ;)
2007-03-08 11:49:46
70.   bhsportsguy
EWF's "That's The Way of The World" is a fine album and contains many classics, the title cut, Shining Star, Reasons, etc. I think "Spirit" and "I Am" are also albums that stand the test of time.

My favorite was "Faces." To me, it was the last great collection of EWF, it had the smooth ballads featuring Phillip Bailey plus that nice driving R&B sound with the horns playing.

No question that both "Off the Wall" and "Thriller" belong on that list, those were the best of Michael Jackson's solo career and as for his sister, Janet's "Control" and "Janet" represent her well.

2007-03-08 11:50:25
71.   D4P
67
What's wrong with Jewel? Her 0304 album is one of my all-time favorites.
2007-03-08 11:50:56
72.   Benaiah
66 - I think that is a fine description, it just has nothing to do with this list. Would anyone make the case that Kid Rock, Xtina, Shakira et al were more innovative or influential than "Blonde on Blonde"? The criteria is more along the lines of: "What sold well, and what might sell well if we put it on this list?"
2007-03-08 11:51:20
73.   bhsportsguy
67 I have bought "Kind of Blue" in LP and CD form.

It was the first "jazz" album I ever listened to and remains a personal favorite.

"So What", I could hum it right now.

2007-03-08 11:53:17
74.   Benaiah
71 - I think she is very, very attractive. Neither here nor there as far as the list goes, but I definitely stay when I happen to see her on television.
2007-03-08 11:54:53
75.   D4P
74
See, I really don't think she's all that attractive, but my wife thinks I do for some reason. I really like her voice, and I think she's a good songwriter.
2007-03-08 11:58:37
76.   jasonungar05
46Yeah we cant take anything seriously that rates say anything that Boston or Bon Jovi did as better than Dylans Blood on the Tracks. Period.

But, I have 86 as I have most of my cd's here at work. Thats kinda pathetic. I had 23 out of the top 25 with belive it or not missing Springsteens Born to Run. (and Shania Twain)

2007-03-08 11:59:02
77.   Eric Enders
OK, I won't rag on Jewel anymore. Like I said, I own one of her records, so I must have thought it was good music once upon a time.

Did they really manage to not put anything by Sam Cooke on there?

2007-03-08 12:01:02
78.   D4P
And where's Dido...?
2007-03-08 12:06:06
79.   Benaiah
I love rap, so here are some notables:
28. EMINEM – MARSHALL MATHERS LP
30. DR. DRE – CHRONIC (Coming in behind Eminem, which is like Jesus being two spots behind the apostle Paul)
57. 50 CENT – GET RICH OR DIE TRYIN'
59. NOTORIOUS B.I.G. – LIFE AFTER DEATH (again, how could this be after 50 Cent?)
90. TUPAC – ALL EYEZ ON ME (arguably the great rap album ever, but not quite as good as "In Da Club")
2007-03-08 12:07:08
80.   Benaiah
78 - They put Eminem on there, so that should cover it.
2007-03-08 12:10:36
81.   Eric Enders
79 If Dre is Jesus, then who's Chuck D?
2007-03-08 12:14:04
82.   Benaiah
81 - John the Baptist.
2007-03-08 12:19:07
83.   StolenMonkey86
46 I have 12 of them. I'd list them, but I don't think anyone cares.

55 I believe you're correct:
The following list - the Definitive 200 - was developed by NARM, the National Association of Recording Merchandisers

Honestly I'd call it a pretty good list for getting most of those songs that you hear (or once heard) nine times a day on the radio. But if I wanted that, I'd just listen to the radio.

If they were honest enough and wanted to include music that was generally influential, they'd include a lot more classical. Particularly an album with Pachabel's Canon in D, as explained in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdxkVQy7QLM

2007-03-08 12:21:11
84.   Benaiah
83 - It is a rock list, so I am surprised there is any classical. (Is this classical: ANDREA BOCELLI – ANDREA?)
2007-03-08 12:25:59
85.   trainwreck
I saw a lot of albums I did not expect to see on that list.
2007-03-08 12:28:02
86.   StolenMonkey86
84 - You've got a couple exceptions like that. Miles Davis' Kind of Blue (one I actually have) is also in there. Of course, I've got a few other Miles albums that aren't in there, but are still excellent. His take on "Summertime" is awesome.

But I digress. How about those Dodgers?

2007-03-08 12:33:29
87.   Benaiah
86 - I would put a lot more Steely Dan on the list. Dan have 3 albums make the R.S. Top 500 and ZERO songs make it. I would have put on "Hey 19", "My Old School" and "Reelin' in the Years" just for starters.
2007-03-08 12:37:28
88.   StolenMonkey86
I still find it funny that Larry King will never read any of this.

http://tinyurl.com/y6gxa7

Disclaimer: video begins with a bit of Rule 5.

2007-03-08 12:39:24
89.   Eric Enders
88 So this is the D.J. Houlton video we've all been waiting for?
2007-03-08 12:45:15
90.   StolenMonkey86
No, it's the Larry King "what do you do, pust a button" video.
2007-03-08 12:45:17
91.   Marty
I re-looked at the list.

I have 1, 4, 6, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 18, 23, 26, 28, 39, 42, 51, 96, 98, 104, 106, 109, 121, 149, 156, 178

I used to have 16, 19, 20, 22, 24, 35, 41, 47, 49, 72, 85, 110, 112, 119, 131, 169, 171, 181, 191

2007-03-08 12:46:10
92.   robohobo
The Braves are looking for veteran pitching.
http://tinyurl.com/35ycdm

"With Hampton out for an undetermined amount of time, the Braves join the long list of teams looking to trade for starting pitchers."

Hendrickson, Tomko, Pierre for A. Jones?
No? How 'bout for Jeff Francoeur?
No, again? Just give us back Aybar so we can send him back AAA.
Please?

2007-03-08 12:57:41
93.   overkill94
The only ones I have are all the Led Zeppelins and all the metal that was represented (Ozzy, Sabbath, Metallica except the black album).

These lists never interest me because I pretty much already like who I like when it comes to older artists and lists like this would never have albums by newer artists that I like (was there even one indie rock album on there?). I was going to say that it was a fairly decent list until I realized Linkin Park was on there - I hate them with all of my being.

2007-03-08 13:01:30
94.   Benaiah
93 - Well, it is hard to imagine how an indie rock album could be on a list like this. The list implies scale (Greatest, Best, Est) and influence that perhaps is impossible for indie to attain. I would put "Yankee, Hotel, Foxtrot" and "Heartbreaker" on the list for starters, but probably most people wouldn't.
2007-03-08 13:04:55
95.   Marty
Yankee, Hotel, Foxtrot would definitely be high on my list.
2007-03-08 13:06:35
96.   chazmac138
I realized Linkin Park was on there - I hate them with all of my being.

93.

Ha! Truer words were never spoken.

2007-03-08 13:06:48
97.   JoeyP
I'm disappointed that Smashing Pumpkins only registered at #149.

They were one of the best alternative bands ever IMO.

2007-03-08 13:08:14
98.   trainwreck
93
Count me in on the Linkin Park is garbage campaign.
2007-03-08 13:09:10
99.   ToyCannon
Any list that has the Kinks, Patty Smith, and X on it is okay with me. Hey Marty, how do you feel when X is called an "old" band.
2007-03-08 13:20:57
100.   underdog
97 I completely agree. The Pumpkins are perennially underrated.

---
Wow, I went to a baseball blog and Rolling Stone magazine broke out. ;-) That list is terrible in so many ways I don't know what to say, but, yeah, the presence of Linkin Park and Kid Rock on it automatically ruins whatever cred it had. Oh, and speaking of REM, just one REM record on it, Automatic for the People? Next.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-03-08 13:21:55
101.   underdog
99 But good point - the presence of "X" on the list gives it back a few more credibility points. Not enough to erase the KidLinkin mistake, but almost.
2007-03-08 13:22:56
102.   trainwreck
Faith No More is underrated. The most diverse rock band that got play in the 90s. They have influenced countless bands.
2007-03-08 13:25:37
103.   ToyCannon
How about a list of the 100 greatest LA Dodgers? I guess No 1 is a no brainer but the rest would be open for discussion.
2007-03-08 13:29:39
104.   trainwreck
So we have

1. Shawn Green...

2007-03-08 13:32:00
105.   Eric Enders
94 I'd disagree with that, actually. You can have tremendous influence without being real popular. Uncle Tupelo, for example, is arguably the most influential band of the last 15 years and they didn't sell too many records. Just like "Potemkin" was an influential film even if relatively few people have seen it.
2007-03-08 13:36:09
106.   overkill94
What about the Pixies? Velvet Underground? The Strokes? It was nice to the White Stripes get some representation, but the list relied a bit too much on classic rock and token genre representatives.
2007-03-08 13:36:50
107.   Indiana Jon
There are many worse albums on the list than Linkin Park.
2007-03-08 13:37:19
108.   LAT
Season tickets came in today's mail!!!
2007-03-08 13:37:55
109.   trainwreck
Where is the Blind Melon, Soundgarden, Alice in Chains, and Stone Temple Pilots?
2007-03-08 13:38:20
110.   Jon Weisman
103 - I think we should decide who No. 71 is and work from there :)

Off the top of my head, I'm going with Junior Gilliam.

2007-03-08 13:41:08
111.   Benaiah
105 - I absolutely agree that you can be influential (I was just reading about the Ramones versus Ratt in an essay by Chuck Klosterman), but these lists trend towards things that are big in and of themselves. All of these albums were huge sellers.

Battleship Potemkin is a completely different animal though. It is a foreign, silent, black and white movie that millions of people have seen, or at least millions have seen the scene on the stairs (that's all I've seen).

100 greatest Dodgers:
1. Paul Lo Duca
2. Hee Seop Choi
3. J.D. Drew
4. Pedro Martinez
5. Milton Bradley

What? You don't like my criteria?

2007-03-08 13:45:00
112.   trainwreck
I have not met a person who has seen Battleship Potemkin that wasn't a film student.
2007-03-08 13:56:57
113.   SCRocks
112.

I saw it in a FILM CLASS. However, I was not "cool" enough to be a film student.

cr

2007-03-08 13:59:13
114.   Benaiah
112 - I bet that nearly every filmmaker has seen it. Which is why it is so influential. To be fair, it was made in 1925, so it isn't exactly a hot topic for most people. When it came out I bet a ton of people saw it, and to this day it is widely shown in art houses and in classrooms.

Besides, almost everyone has seen recreations of it anyway (The Untouchables springs to mind).

2007-03-08 13:59:51
115.   Benaiah
114 - And I was a film student and saw it in class.
2007-03-08 14:04:49
116.   Hythloday
113- Same for me, but I was pretentious enough to like it.

Also I think plenty of good bands ought to be left of that list (which was admittedly terrible). If we were going to make a good list it should be those earth shattering albums. I think that would also exclude indie bands that are influential, but break through. You could also probably cut the list down to 50 or some albums then.

Same with the Dodgers, instead of 100 best I think 20 most important would be more interesting (same # 1 though).

2007-03-08 14:15:12
117.   CanuckDodger
A poster at John Sickels' site says that a blogger named Matthew Berry is reporting that Grady Little told Gammons that if the season started today Greg Miller would be the 5th starter and Billingsley would be in the bullpen. Fourth-hand information, but interesting if true.
2007-03-08 14:17:26
118.   Marty
Hey Marty, how do you feel when X is called an "old" band.

Unfortunately, they are old. They were a band nearly 30 years ago. It's weird when I think that if in the 60s I was listening to 30-year-old music I'd be hearing a lot of Glenn Miller.

2007-03-08 14:18:00
119.   trainwreck
No mention of it on Gammons blog, but that would be very interesting.
2007-03-08 14:21:37
120.   Eric Enders
117 Actually I believe that's fifth-hand if you count it all up. But we can remove a couple of hands by pointing to the original article.
http://www.talentedmrroto.com/Article.aspx?articleid=17409

That would be pretty cool if it happens.

2007-03-08 14:27:39
121.   Terry A
I counted five hands, too, but I hoped we were just playing that game where you sit in a circle and pass a "whisper rumor" around to see how much it changed from start to finish.

I heard Miller is the real opening day starter, and Billingsley has been traded to the Reds.

2007-03-08 14:28:02
122.   Benaiah
120 - Yeah, that would be awesome. I am a little skeptical about this report, because Miller hasn't started in a couple of years, but at the very least this goes to show you what kind of stuff he has. Man oh man, we are so loaded with pitching it's sick.
2007-03-08 14:28:39
123.   CanuckDodger
120 -- To ME it's fourth hand (Little, Gammons, Berry, Sickels' poster), to people reading my post, it is fifth hand (Little, Gammons, Berry, Sickels' poster, me).
2007-03-08 14:29:41
124.   Vaudeville Villain
79-

I'm a huge hip-hop (rap, whatever) fan too, and I immediately discounted the guy's taste when he even had 50 Cent on the list, let alone ahead of Nas' Illmatic. Ridiculous.

2007-03-08 14:29:45
125.   Benaiah
121 - For Ryan Freel, to backup Pierre.
2007-03-08 14:31:02
126.   Benaiah
124 - Don't get me wrong, that was a good album, but it isn't one of the top 10 or even top 20 hip hop albums of all time.
2007-03-08 14:32:55
127.   trainwreck
124
Where is Rakim, Pharcyde, Kool Keith, or even Doggystyle (the only good Snoop Dogg album).
2007-03-08 14:34:07
128.   Eric Enders
122 Miller did start in Instructional League this past fall.
2007-03-08 14:37:07
129.   Casilda
84 - Bocelli? And Phantom of the Opera for that matter? Oh dear god. If they insist on having opera and musical albums (and I'm not sure why - this is supposed to be a Rock & Roll list,) then they should get 1) a real opera singer, not a glorified pop star, and 2) pick Tommy or Chess, both of which are actual Rock musicals, not Phantom.

112 - Actually, I'm a non-film student who's seen it. Wolf Trap Performing Arts Park in the DC area showed it on screen with the NSO (I think) playing the score in accompaniment.

I enjoyed it quite a bit. The steps scene is the famous one, but I remember being surprised by the specific care the film took to denounce anti-semitism. The guy who shouts "Down with the Jews" is booed off the screen by the rest of the mob. Ah, the idealism of early communists.

2007-03-08 14:37:07
130.   D4P
Where is Rakim, Pharcyde, Kool Keith, or even Doggystyle

Not to mention:

Who is Rakim, Pharcyde, Kool Keith, or even Doggystyle

and/or

What is Rakim, Pharcyde, Kool Keith, or even Doggystyle

2007-03-08 14:37:37
131.   Benaiah
Was there any Wutang on the list? I mean, there has to be, right?
2007-03-08 14:41:56
132.   Hythloday
130 Yo mama's got an afro with a chin-strap (from the Pharcyde oeuvre).
2007-03-08 14:43:58
133.   trainwreck
Yo mama's got a pegleg with a kickstand.
2007-03-08 14:44:53
134.   robohobo
Ska and reggae weren't represented much either.
2007-03-08 14:46:56
135.   Benaiah
Ska is the worst thing besides rap rock and C. Dion on this planet. I really, really can't stand it.
2007-03-08 14:49:34
136.   Hythloday
I'm also a bit surprised that George Harrison has the highest rank solo effort of the Beatles. Is that like have a Yardbirds album higher than any Led Zeppelin album? That's not quite right is it? Maybe it would be more like ranking an Eric Clapton album above a Led Zeppelin album.
2007-03-08 14:50:26
137.   ToyCannon
118
I talk about that all the time with my wife. Other then my wife I don't think to many people were listening to 20/30's music in the late 60's or 70's but I know plenty of 20 somethings who listen to 40 year old music.
2007-03-08 14:51:43
138.   Benaiah
136 - At least it wasn't "Goodnight Vienna."
2007-03-08 14:54:18
139.   Hythloday
Yo mama's got a glass eye with a fish in it
2007-03-08 14:55:33
140.   robohobo
Ska has been around since before Rock 'n' Roll. I learned that in my History of Rock and Roll college course that fulfilled my fine art requirement.
2007-03-08 14:55:40
141.   Hythloday
138 - Look we all know Ringo was the most talented of the bunch; he's just modest.
2007-03-08 14:57:22
142.   robohobo
135. You didn't like Madness, The Specials and the English Beat in the 80s? Oingo Boingo? What about Sublime? Were they on the list? They should be.
2007-03-08 14:57:25
143.   Eric Enders
I was a 20-something until a couple of days ago, and I listen to lots of '20s and '30s music. Mississippi John Hurt, Big Bill Broonzy, Robert Johnson, Skip James, Son House...
2007-03-08 15:10:22
144.   ToyCannon
143
Sure, but I'm talking about people who were in their 20's in the 60's/70's. Just from my own experience with friends and family anything older then 1955 was never heard.
2007-03-08 15:10:52
145.   Marty
With the exception of Iggy, New York Dolls, and The Velvet Underground, when I was in my 20s I didn't want to listen to anything that was older than 1975.
2007-03-08 15:15:06
146.   Andrew Shimmin
No Otis Redding, Sam Cooke, Wilson Pickett, or Solomon Burke. No Chuck Berry. No James Brown. And while Al Green makes the list, he does so after the Forrest Gump Soundtrack.

The list is dead to me.

2007-03-08 15:21:30
147.   Marty
The Big Lebowski in 5 seconds (language somewhat nsfw)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXYMqHdsGwk

2007-03-08 15:22:21
148.   trainwreck
147
Haha yeah I have seen that. There is another one with all the times they say the F word.
2007-03-08 15:46:00
149.   underdog
Argh! Damn early Daylight Savings Time this year - my 9am soccer game will feel like 8am. :-( Oh well.

By the way, I think these sorts of "all time" lists serve a purpose, to get people to debate and pick their own favorites, so in that sense that music list is a success... As one who has edited some "best" movie lists, I can attest to the fact that there's always gonna be some, uh, feedback.

2007-03-08 16:04:05
150.   Marty
Argh! Damn early Daylight Savings Time this year

DST Has pretty much consumed 80% of my time in the last month. Stupid Congress.

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-03-08 16:06:06
151.   natepurcell
article canuck was referring to about greg miller.

http://tinyurl.com/3yyy4e

Here's another good Gammons tidbit that came from the Weekend: Said he spoke to Grady Little of the Dodgers and that Greg Miller is the best arm they have in camp. That if the season started today, Miller would be in the rotation and Chad Billingsley would be in the bullpen.

2007-03-08 16:10:11
152.   D4P
Stupid Congress

On the contrary: I found this to be surprisingly progressive thinking on their part.

2007-03-08 16:12:44
153.   Jon Weisman
There should be no time change. Let's just live each day like it was the last, only with one minute more or less sunshine.
2007-03-08 16:13:35
154.   Steve
Why wouldn't Billingsley just start the season at AAA?
2007-03-08 16:14:28
155.   underdog
Nomar just crushed a home run.
2007-03-08 16:16:49
156.   underdog
153 Amen. I used to rail about the DST thing as an outdated idea (better suited for the farmers and early industrialists of the 19th century) but I guess there are reasons for it.

It's a trade off this time of year, a week of pain or so until you get used to the mornings, vs. that much more daylight.

But I'm sorry for techies right now (sorry Marty!)

2007-03-08 16:17:54
157.   underdog
154 Hopefully because he's better than Dessens, or Hendy, or Tomko as a long reliever, but getting in some starts and building stamina could be a reason to be in the minors if he doesn't win that 5th slot. I just worry about his confidence taking a hit if he has to start back there.
2007-03-08 16:18:27
158.   LAT
Trivial gripe of the day: Since Frank took over the Dodgers make season ticket holders buy the pre-season freeway games (under Fox it was optional). This year one of the games is split squad. We have to pay full price for a pre-season split squad game. That's just abusive.
2007-03-08 16:21:27
159.   Steve
Well, of course he's better than Dessens, or Hendy or Tomko as a long reliever. Small mammals and 10 year olds are better than them as a long reliever. What we want to avoid more than anything else is that if he pitches well as a relief pitcher, the witch doctors come in and pronounce him a relief pitcher, and his career is over before it began. Better to give him starts every five days and if he's not going to get the shot, then he's not going to get the shot.
2007-03-08 16:25:38
160.   underdog
159 I think the Dodgers actually signed a small 10 year old mammal to their minor league camp.

But anyway, I hope that doesn't happen either, but I wouldn't think the Dodgers will pronounce him that way at all. I also still have this feeling one of the first 5 pitchers will be traded before end o'July deadline and that Bills will ample opportunity to jump back into the rotation of not this time. Still, despite that aforementioned rumor (which is just that, a rumor), I'd rather see Greg Miller make the team as a reliever and have Bills start. And have the DHT squad all gone. But that's just me.

2007-03-08 16:25:55
161.   StolenMonkey86
Here's some trivia:

The most walks any one pitcher has issued Juan Pierre in his career is 4. Four pitchers have done it. Here they are, with the total number of plate appearances the two have faced in parentheses:

Miguel Batista (24)
Randy Johnson (37)
Hideo Nomo (17)
Kerry Wood (19)

2007-03-08 16:27:00
162.   trainwreck
It is sad how much we have to worry about management screwing things up.
2007-03-08 16:36:02
163.   underdog
Lowe had 4 strikeouts in his short outing today. Not bad. Now comes Tomko.
2007-03-08 16:42:21
164.   mankatododger
Can someone explain the MLB/Direct TV announcement today? The other carriers get a month to match the Direct TV offer before it becomes exclusive?
2007-03-08 16:44:32
165.   Vaudeville Villain
126-

Whaaaa? Illmatic has to be top twenty of all time, I think. It Ain't Hard To Tell is one of the best rap songs ever recorded. The production is amazing. It's been hugely influential on other rappers. To say it's not the best of all time I'll grant, but not top twenty is way too far, IMO.

I'll also echo the sentiment that the absence of the Pharcyde and Wu-Tang Clan in favor of disposable pap like Shania Twain is also pretty weak.

2007-03-08 16:47:13
166.   ornette
Ohh la la la this pop music list shananigans is getting boring.
-------
I stopped listening to that stuff when my acne disappeared
--------
--------
What about the TOP 20 DODGERS list!
------------

I tried to make a list off of the top of my head of the 20 best LA Dodgers - just to get the process started.

Not being very familiar with the Brooklyn team, I thought it best to start in 1958…
(maybe some real historians could compile a Top 20 Brooklyn Dodgers list list)

Also I don't know much about the 1959 team that beat The ChiSox in the series, certainly there is a name or two from that team that needs to be on the list.

Hopefully a member of that team can replace Shawn Green.
-------
I tried to limit it to players that were with the team for at least 2 years, basing on their selection on their contribution to the Dodgers and not what they have done with another team.

(therefore eliminating Frank Robinson or Pedro Martinez )
-----------
May the debate begin…
----------

60s(6)

Koufax
Drysdale
Tommie Davis
(2 seasons in a row over .350 if I'm not mistaken, and at least one batting crown)
Maury Wills
Willie Davis(?)
Wes Parker

70s (6)
Don Sutton
Steve Garvey
(never could stand him but he has to be on the list)
Ron Cey
Mike Marshall(the kinestherapist)
(didn't play very long but had 2 amazing seasons…)
Reggie Smith
Dusty Baker(?)
(DB never carried the team on his shoulders the way SG, RC and RS were capable of doing…but he'll always be one of my favorites-I admit that this is a sentimental choice)

80s(4)
Fernando Valenzuela
Pedro Guerrero
Orel Hershiser
Kirk Gibson
(barely makes the 2 yr requirement- but he's got to be here…)

90s(1)
Mike Piazza

00s(3)
Gary Sheffield
(If anyone ever asks you what do Steve Garvey and Gary Sheffield have in common…)
Eric Gagne
Shawn Green(?)

------

--------

2007-03-08 16:51:32
167.   Vaudeville Villain
166-

Where is the love for Jason Grabowski?

2007-03-08 16:59:25
168.   ornette
SOME OF THE PLAYERS LEFT OFF THE LIST

*Beltre only had one good season
*When I think of Steve Sax and Bill Russell I think of errors…
*Steve Yeager, Mike Sciosia…wish i could find a spot for them…
*I remember some of the most amazing throws from right field to 3rd base by Joe Ferguson… and some outrageous home runs, but unfortunately he doesn't make a list like this…
*Davey Lopes?

*And somebody tell me about Wally Moon (!?)
*Ramon Martinez ?
*Raul Mondesi(?) -
is there another 90s player better than Raul to go with Mike Piazza?
All those rookies of the year - never living up to their potential…
*Does Hideo Nomo have a place on this list ?
------
The only current Dodger whom I feel has the potential to make this list is Russell Coltrane Martin…

(although hope springs eternal for Loney, Kemp, CBill, Broxton, LaRoche…)

If Nomar has another 4+1 moment…
(the most exciting game since game one WS 1988)
------
-------
------
-question for Old Timers?

I am trying to remember the importance of the role of Jimmy Wynn on the 1974 pennant winning team?
What happened to him afterwards ?

2007-03-08 17:16:17
169.   Marty
ToyCannon will tell you everything you need to know about Jim Wynn
2007-03-08 17:17:22
170.   underdog
AVOID THIS COMMENT IF YOU'RE TIVO-ing the game for later.

^^^
^^^
Holy Cow. I mean, Holy CAL.

I should've known that could be an upset in the making. UCLA is so erratic

^^^
^^^^

2007-03-08 17:17:53
171.   underdog
Whoa, Andy La Roche is playing in the OF.

And Joe Mays is "pitching." (Quotes intended.)

2007-03-08 17:19:53
172.   underdog
Rick Monday is in mid-season form. He's already incoherent on exciting plays.
2007-03-08 17:33:20
173.   trainwreck
Ooo, please update us on La Roche's play.
2007-03-08 17:42:08
174.   underdog
I think he had trouble with one ball that was ruled a hit and doesn't sound like it was easy. He was also just hit by a pitch.

Rick Monday, after La Roche's HPB, "One thing we noticed about La Roche, he's not up there to play dodgeball."

Huh?

Betemit just smoked one but it was right at the OFer.

2007-03-08 17:45:13
175.   Indiana Jon
170

UCLA losses just aren't the same without one certain fan that's usually here.

2007-03-08 17:46:03
176.   underdog
175 I'm sure he's Suffering, though.
2007-03-08 17:47:54
177.   trainwreck
Brock is surprisingly calm about UCLA basketball. Never understood that myself.
2007-03-08 17:48:04
178.   underdog
Uh oh, now La Roche is being replaced in the OF by Matt Kemp, mid-inning, after being hit by that pitch. Doesn't sound too serious (though it's hard to tell with Rick Monday).
2007-03-08 17:48:30
179.   trainwreck
174
lol
2007-03-08 17:49:46
180.   ToyCannon
168
Other then being the best player on the 74 team, he didn't have much of a bearing on the pennant.

Players missing from the list:
I'd be cutting Mike Marshall(only one incredible year not two) because his time was to brief and replace him with Davy Lopes who was my least favorite Dodger of all-time but was a heck of a player for a long time on alot of good teams.
I'd also cut Wes Parker and replace him with Junior Gilliam or Mondesi. Gilliam played 760 games at 3b and 400 games at 2nd base and did a fine job. Parker was useless until later in his career and then he quit.

The Dodgers have been to good to limit it to 20. Were not the Arizona Diamondbacks. If your not listing 50, your not doing the franchise justice. JMO

2007-03-08 17:52:50
181.   trainwreck
178
Hopefully just precaution.
2007-03-08 17:59:01
182.   Gen3Blue
Sounds like all our infield prospects who can hit our blocked so they have to flounder in the outfield. They are mostly good enough athletes for this not to kill them immediately. They may even adapt to find out they are blocked in the outfield.
Actually one year will help if we don't trade the farm.
2007-03-08 18:02:27
183.   Indiana Jon
166 180

I'm thinking Tommy John over Mike Marshall.

2007-03-08 18:04:16
184.   Greg Brock
I'm in LA and helping my parents with some stuff this week, so I'm not around the tubes very much these days. But I thought I'd show up to catch a ribbing from you guys.

It's a disappointing loss, but not that surprising. While I'd really like a #1 seed (and may still get one), we're not a championship team this year anyway, as I've been saying. An Elite Eight run after a Championship game appearance last year is all I really want. Hopefully we'll be a Championship club with Kevin Love next year.

Anyhoo, Hopefully I'll get a chance to post in the next couple days, and I hope you guys aren't having too much fun reveling in the Bruins defeat ;)

2007-03-08 18:07:43
185.   Sam DC
John Popper can't drive 55.

Or twice 55.

But he does drive the Poppermobile:

Inside the black Mercedes SUV, officers found a cache of weapons and a small amount of marijuana, the Patrol said. A police dog searched the vehicle, finding numerous hidden compartments containing four rifles, nine handguns and a switchblade knife. Authorities also found a Taser and night vision goggles. . . . The vehicle also had flashing emergency headlights, a siren and a public address system, the Patrol said.

'Popper indicated to troopers that he had installed these items in his vehicle because (in the event of a natural disaster) he didn't want to be left behind,' the Patrol said in a news release"

2007-03-08 18:08:04
186.   Sam DC
Link: http://tinyurl.com/2w6u2g
2007-03-08 18:14:29
187.   Vishal
[184] i don't hate the bruins, but i'm reveling, that's for damn sure.
2007-03-08 18:17:02
188.   D4P
There's something in the Dodgers box score I don't understand:

HR: Garciaparra

2007-03-08 18:23:41
189.   Gen3Blue
Who or what is a "Popper". It used to be drugs but it sounds worse now.
2007-03-08 18:25:42
190.   Sam DC
189 Husky singer for the band Blues Traveler.

And apparently, Nor'west survivalist.

Speaking of suvivalists, the Nationals today in their Honor the Military ST game wore blue camo baseball caps.

The ugliest caps ever to blight the state of Florida, or any of its swamps.

2007-03-08 18:27:18
191.   trainwreck
Never realized John Popper was so nuts. Maybe the gastric bypass surgery made him crazy.
2007-03-08 18:29:36
192.   Gen3Blue
So--excellent pitching for both teams(except Mays) probably good.
2007-03-08 18:41:31
193.   Ken Arneson
FYI, I just posted a "Top 50 Toaster Poster" comment over on the current Fairpole thread. Many of y'all are on the list.
2007-03-08 18:47:46
194.   D4P
193
Yikes! I'm number 7, and I haven't even been here that long!
2007-03-08 18:51:49
195.   Vishal
[188] oh no! i hope he doesn't waste all his bullets in spring training.
2007-03-08 18:53:44
196.   trainwreck
Now I just want to hear Grady give us some insight into the 5th starter spot.
2007-03-08 18:54:46
197.   Vishal
[193] woo, top 25! i just wanna crack the 1% mark, that's all.
2007-03-08 19:04:38
198.   ToyCannon
Ryan Ketchner, Brian Myron, Jose Cruz, and Oscar Robles have all found their way into the Padre camp. I'm just shocked that Grabowski, Edwards, and Mike Rose haven't followed suit.
2007-03-08 19:08:15
199.   trainwreck
Jose Cruz Jr should be ours. We should have gone Repko/Cruz over Pierre in CF.
2007-03-08 19:20:37
200.   D4P
199
Yep. Cruz mashed lefties. Pierre just mashes potatoes.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2007-03-08 19:22:15
201.   Marty
Welcome back to LA Brock.
2007-03-08 19:44:21
202.   ToyCannon
Lots of RHH mash lefties. It is not exactly a scarce skill. I fail to see how a Repko/Cruz platoon in CF is viable given that Cruz and Repko both only hit LHP. The value that the majority of DT posters give Repko seems very inflated but maybe I'm wrong about him, all I see is a 5th outfielder who gets hurt and can't hit RHP enough to ever be more then that.
2007-03-08 19:58:34
203.   D4P
202
Decent CF option > Repko > Pierre
2007-03-08 20:02:22
204.   Gen3Blue
203 This is unfortunately near the truth.

Just want to know where you find a great screen name, such as "Scareduck"

2007-03-08 20:10:14
205.   trainwreck
Repko and Cruz are not great, but I would rather have them for a year and then try to sign Ichiro then have 5 years of Pierre.
2007-03-08 20:11:23
206.   trainwreck
I should have said Repko and Cruz are not good.
2007-03-08 20:12:16
207.   D4P
I guess I'd rather have Ichiro than Pierre, but I don't really want Ichiro either.
2007-03-08 20:51:44
208.   trainwreck
What is wrong with Ichiro?
2007-03-08 20:53:28
209.   StolenMonkey86
Andruw Jones > Ichiro > Repko > Pierre

Where does Torii Hunter fit in this?

2007-03-08 21:00:20
210.   D4P
Ichiro's power seems to be on a decline, and he's not getting any younger. Plus, his OBP seems highly dependent upon his BA. IMO he is past his prime, and signing him to a big, long contract now would not be a good idea.
2007-03-08 21:00:53
211.   Jon Weisman
Ne wpos tup to p.
2007-03-08 21:21:58
212.   trainwreck
I do not really want to sign anyone to a long contract.

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