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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
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3-2 ... Blastoff
2007-03-15 07:52
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

Here's an opportunity to take a break from all the roster speculation and taste the nitty-gritty of the game: Tim Brown's Yahoo! Sports article on the rise of a new pickoff move, the 3-2.

Supposedly, it works better than the hoary fake-to-third, throw-to-first move that never works - except for the one time it did.

The pickoff play begins with the bases loaded or runners at second and third. The pitcher fakes the throw to third, then allows that momentum to carry him – 270 degrees counter-clockwise – into a throw to second base. It works best with the bases loaded, when it comes disguised as the more familiar third-to-first pickoff.

Matt Wilhite, a 25-year-old reliever who has spent the past three full seasons in the Los Angeles Angels' farm system and now has a chance to win a big-league job, in that time has picked off roughly 35 runners from second base with "The 3-2."

Friday night in Surprise, pitching against the Kansas City Royals, Wilhite had it work again. And then he was called for a balk by a minor-league umpire. And then Angels manager Mike Scioscia was ejected for arguing the call. And then umpiring supervisor Steve Palermo, who was in a suite at the ballpark, went sleuthing. And now everybody will know "The 3-2" is coming. ...

Comments (133)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-03-15 08:07:29
1.   Xeifrank
The fake to third throw to first move would work a little better if the pitchers made their leg kick look like their delivery to home plate. Kind of the way a good left handed pitcher with a good move to first base does. vr, Xei
2007-03-15 09:12:59
2.   Eric Stephen
I don't like the name "3-2". Should we now rename the 5-4-3 double play a "3-2-1"?

This isn't football...Tim Brown, et al do not need to dumb things down for baseball fans. Calling the play "1-6" or "1-4" would work, but of course that doesn't account for the fake. Maybe "1-fake5-6". Nah, that sounds too dumb. ("let's call her 'Lisa S'. No, too obvious. 'L Simpson'.")

Despite my utter hatred of the name, it sounds like a cool play to see.

2007-03-15 09:23:07
3.   old dodger fan
When I saw his name I hoped he was related to a former Dodger (mid 60's) pitcher named Nick Willhite but Nick has an extra "L" in his last name.
2007-03-15 09:27:37
4.   trainwreck
Pitchers with the last name of white have all kinds of interesting stories.
2007-03-15 09:32:59
5.   Vishal
i can only imagine it working with a left-handed pitcher.

aren't pickoff throws to 2nd dangerous because an errant throw can easily go a lot further, and the runner can potentially score?

2007-03-15 09:46:10
6.   capdodger
5 If any pickoff throw goes past its target with the bases loaded, the runner on third will probably score.
2007-03-15 09:55:18
7.   FirstMohican
5 - No worries, JP's got the backup on lockdown.
2007-03-15 10:03:05
8.   Vishal
[7] well, if he can beat the runner home from the outfield, then maybe. i doubt that pierre throwing it will do the trick, however.
2007-03-15 10:03:17
9.   ToyCannon
Las Vegas travel question. Leaving from Sylmar at around 15:30 on Friday would you take the 210 route or the backway and use the 14? I haven't driven to Vegas in over 10 years but I hear the traffic is terrible on Friday's. Would leaving at 14:00 make a worthwhile difference?
2007-03-15 10:06:39
10.   ToyCannon
We make alot of fun of Pierre's arm but after a season of Lofton playing CF I don't think we'll see much of a difference. Just an FYI, I finally read the Bill James 2007 defensive info and Dewan has Pierre as a top 10 defensive CF for 2006 after two down years. If he can hold steady at that level it will be a nice upgrade from the Lofton comedy of errors we saw last year.
2007-03-15 10:10:25
11.   still bevens
10 I sure hope so. We never got the chance to rail at Lofton's arm because he was too busy taking the world's craziest routes to the ball so that the throw never came into the equation.
2007-03-15 10:10:28
12.   bhsportsguy
9 ToyCannon:

210 is fine, 2:00 would be about the cut-off for making a difference, after that, well, I hope you have satellite radio (Sirius if you want to listen to NCAA Tourney).

2007-03-15 10:13:13
13.   Bob Timmermann
9
From Sylmar, I would go on the 14 and then the cut across the Pearblossom Highway. I've been stuck in some hellacious traffic on the 210 past Claremont at the time you're going.

Not that I've ever driven all the way to Vegas. But I've been to Victorville and Lucerne Valley.

2007-03-15 10:17:36
14.   ToyCannon
Great, two esteemed posters and two different suggestions. Is Jay Jaffe available for the tiebreaker?
2007-03-15 10:17:59
15.   Marty
Going to Vegas on Friday is a nightmare unless you leave before 11 a.m. The 15 before you get over the Cajon pass also has some construction going on. I don't know if the back way is any better.
2007-03-15 10:24:34
16.   bhsportsguy
15 On Fridays, I would agree, the last time I drove there on a Friday was in August (the weekend of Dodgers' sweep of the Giants at home) and I left the SFV around 1:30 and there was an hour plus delay in Cajon Pass because of an accident. I wasn't just moving slow, all of were stopped like a parking lot, getting out of cars and just standing around.

Now of course that could happen anytime but I agree with Marty, leaving in the a.m. is the safest bet.

I would defer to Bob on the 210, I don't take it that often.

2007-03-15 10:26:13
17.   Bob Timmermann
I've been stuck in traffic at 2 pm on the 210 east of Claremont on a Friday back in my prep football coverage days.

The Pearblossom Highway is prettier.

2007-03-15 10:26:41
18.   ToyCannon
Would I be better kissing off Friday and leaving at 03:00 or 04:00 AM on Saturday. I must be in Vegas by 09:00AM and I remember the drive taking about 4 hours on a traffic free day.
2007-03-15 10:28:44
19.   Vishal
if you leave at 2, the 210 would probably be okay. if you leave any later, and if the 210 is anything like the 10, taking an alternate route (like maybe the 14 to the 18 through victorville or something) might be a better idea.
2007-03-15 10:30:08
20.   Bob Timmermann
18

You can have:
1) traffic
2) dealing with drunk drivers

2007-03-15 10:31:27
21.   Jon Weisman
9 - Nice rewrite :)
2007-03-15 10:34:21
22.   ToyCannon
The Cardinal announcer is painfull to listen to. Hard to make Monday sound decent but he pulls it off.
2007-03-15 10:37:55
23.   Bob Timmermann
Is it a raspy voice guy who is kind of stupid?

If so, that's Mike Shannon. He's a beloved institution in St. Louis because he's a native son.

Being a native son is a big deal in St. Louis.

2007-03-15 10:38:39
24.   Bumsrap
The 3-2 has to be properly set up to work. Remember the World Series when Johnny Bench was going to be purposely walked and the catcher went from the standing position and sneaked into a crowtch behind the plate and got a first pitch strike on an unsuspecting Bench?

That would be part one of the set up.

Part 2 would have the third and first basemen charge the plate as if looking for a bunt, have the shortstop cover third, the second baseman cover first, ant the CF cover second.

The pitcher would intentionally knock his hat off during the windup. Oh, the left fielder would bring a hot dog with him to the outfield and eat it while all this happened.

All that aside, I hope I am at the game when this works even if it is done without all these dramatics.

2007-03-15 10:41:32
25.   Bumsrap
To same some anguish, crowtch = crouch
2007-03-15 10:41:48
26.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 10

Actually, wouldn't that information mean that we should see a marked improvement in CF over Lofton? As problematic as Pierre's offensive production is, I don't think that we means we should downplay what strengths he does have.

Of course, checking BPro Rate2, Pierre's indistinguishable from league average as a CF.

WWSH

2007-03-15 10:44:21
27.   ToyCannon
23
Must be Shannon since your description matches him perfectly. I remember watching him play in several world series. I understand using ex-ballplayers for color analysis but using them for play by play is usually just a bad idea. The guy who just took over is a professional.
2007-03-15 10:46:02
28.   ToyCannon
26
Yes we should and I expect we will.
2007-03-15 10:46:16
29.   Marty
Toy, I would opt for the early morning drive if you can handle the lack of sleep. Then you will get there in 4 hours. I've made that drive a hundred times. The speed limit is 70 most of the way and you can do 75 without worrying about a ticket.
2007-03-15 10:47:42
30.   Bob Timmermann
I miss the "Grand Illusion" pickoff play that, I believe, Miami used in a CWS.

I believe the Hurricanes took the play out of the "Jean Renoir Way to Play Baseball." It has an appendix titled "La Regle du Jeu."

2007-03-15 10:49:31
31.   Bob Timmermann
27
Outsiders are not allowed to speak ill of Mike Shannon I learned.

Shannon gets a pass from the St. Louis media because he has a popular restaurant that all the big sports figures in the area frequent. Even Tony La Russa, who is a vegetarian, and the restaurant is a steakhouse.

2007-03-15 10:55:28
32.   Vishal
[31] if outsiders aren't allowed and st. louis people won't because they like his restaurant, then who's left?
2007-03-15 11:02:07
33.   Bob Timmermann
32
Mike Shannon has acquired total immunity from criticism.

Except from Cubs fans.

2007-03-15 11:03:20
34.   underdog
Gosh, Hendrickson's pitching well. Is that good or bad?

Oh wait, Rolen just doubled for the first Cards hit, in the 4th inning.

Abreu continues his torrid pace. De Jesus apparently made a couple of great plays in the field.

2007-03-15 11:10:59
35.   underdog
My God, it's true, this Cardinals announcer is horrible. Sounds like he's had one too many cocktails and his voice could also be used to cure insomnia.
2007-03-15 11:12:49
36.   Bob Timmermann
You are correct about the cocktails and Mike Shannon.
2007-03-15 11:13:02
37.   still bevens
How many of our 9 hits are for extra bases? Zero?
2007-03-15 11:16:41
38.   worz
35 The most annoying thing about him today is that he insists on pronouncing James Loney's name James "Looney"
2007-03-15 11:16:58
39.   underdog
LOL. Is anyone listening to him now? His call of that rundown play was probably the single most fumbling play by play call of anything I've ever heard - well, since Jerry Coleman anyway.
2007-03-15 11:20:48
40.   still bevens
39 Im keeping it on St. Louis. Just something about not listening to Tanya Roberts thats refreshing to me.
2007-03-15 11:24:07
41.   Bob Timmermann
The other radio guy for the Cardinals is John Rooney, who is actually very good.

On the Cardinals OTA telecasts this year, they're going to be using Jay Randolph for play-by-play.

You probably thought he was dead didn't you?

2007-03-15 11:30:53
42.   underdog
I think Mike Shannon is dead. But still announcing.

I actually turned it off - something about a broadcast that makes me miss Rick Monday and Tanya Roberts was too much to bear. That and the fact that it's a meaningless game.

2007-03-15 11:39:16
43.   kngoworld
Spring training is not just for the athletes to fine tune their skills and work out the kinks, but also for announcers and broadcasters to prepare for the regular system and get in shape vocally.
2007-03-15 11:40:07
44.   still bevens
42 Meaningless? But what about the parade of singles, the non-offensive pitching of Mark Hendrickson and the workmanlike defense of our infield??

ps: Did Ethier gun down the runner at home? Wasn't sure if he got taken out of the game yet.

2007-03-15 11:56:52
45.   underdog
Greg Miller pitched two shutout innings, that's nice to see.

And yep, outfield assist for Andre!

Now I'm gonna have a few cocktails Mike Shannon style, to celebrate.

2007-03-15 12:08:25
46.   Icaros
Miller walked two and hit one batter, on the downside. But the batter he hit was Eckstein, so you have to think he just did that as a shout-out to his fans here at the Toaster.
2007-03-15 12:10:10
47.   Gen3Blue
Who is M. Jones
2007-03-15 12:15:15
48.   ToyCannon
I think most of us like Eckstein and it is only the loud minority that could possibly have an issue with the unlikeliest baseball World Championship SS in both leagues in history.
2007-03-15 12:16:00
49.   ToyCannon
Hands of Stone for the Dodger 3rd baseman this spring. No one is immune.
2007-03-15 12:16:04
50.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 28

Why, just because Pierre represents all the problems with Ned's management style? But since we at least like to think of ourselves as more objective judges of baseball talent, pounding on Pierre in the part of the game where he might actually be a plus strikes me as odd.

Does recognizing that Pierre might be a defensive positive in CF (assuming James' metrics are right), especially when compared to Kemp who I remember to be something of a disaster in CF, somehow imply that his net production is superior? I for one don't see the automatic link, and I don't see why we shouldn't recognize whatever strengths Pierre might have.

WWSH

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-03-15 12:23:29
51.   ToyCannon
50
You misunderstood me. I was answering your 1st sentence not your second. I was saying "yes" we should see a marked improvement in CF and also that I expect we well.
That improvement is strictly predicated on the fact that Lofton played the worse CF in Dodger stadium since Roger Cedeno showed us how to not the play the position even when you have the speed of a cheetah.
2007-03-15 12:27:51
52.   bhsportsguy
48 Well, I think David might be better than the guy who put up this career line.

.247/.297/.321

Anyone know who he is, he played in the last 30 years.

More hints to come if needed. And no, he is not Mark Belanger (228/.300/.280)

2007-03-15 12:28:45
53.   ToyCannon
50
I don't have a problem with Pierre, I have a problem with Luis Gonzalez. Great clubhouse guy or not, 780OPS corner outfielders are a dime a dozen and shouldn't be paid as though they are worth something.
2007-03-15 12:29:13
54.   bhsportsguy
Gammons or someone on ESPN.com reported that a scout told him that on a scale of 8 being the highest, Meloan's curve would be a 7.
2007-03-15 12:29:16
55.   Bob Timmermann
52
Is that the line for either Luis Aparicio or Maury Wills?
2007-03-15 12:30:41
56.   bhsportsguy
53 I know we are in the midst of March Madness and Spring Training, but from where you sit at Clipper games, is this the last year that we see Corey in a Clipper uniform?
2007-03-15 12:32:47
57.   Bob Timmermann
54
What I didn't understand was that scale went from 2-8. Why would a scale start at 2?
2007-03-15 12:33:48
58.   bhsportsguy
55 No.

His first name is also linked with a famous "person" whose demise is emminent.

2007-03-15 12:34:19
59.   bhsportsguy
Another solo homer off Meloan.
2007-03-15 12:34:54
60.   BlueCrew Bruin
54 As much as I would like to believe that, I must reject it out of hand.

What kind of monster comes up with a scale that goes from 2-8??

2007-03-15 12:34:54
61.   Jon Weisman
57 - The Weisman Favorite Movie Ratings Scale goes from 3-30. But for a good reason.
2007-03-15 12:34:59
62.   Bob Timmermann
Juan Castro?
2007-03-15 12:35:15
63.   Jon Weisman
59 - JASHOM?
2007-03-15 12:36:14
64.   ToyCannon
52
I thought it might be Walt Weiss but his line according to retrosheet is 258 .351 .326
plus he only won a WC with the A's and lost while on the Braves.
2007-03-15 12:36:15
65.   bhsportsguy
The Dodgers finally defeat the Cardinals.
2007-03-15 12:36:32
66.   BlueCrew Bruin
61 Well, at least that ends on a more sensible number.
2007-03-15 12:37:04
67.   underdog
57 And what kind of scale ends at 8 for that matter?

I guess they were grading on the curve.

{duck}

2007-03-15 12:38:37
68.   BlueCrew Bruin
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned already but I noticed a D.J. Strawberry playing for Maryland. Darryl Junior?
2007-03-15 12:44:10
69.   ToyCannon
56
I've lost interest. I don't watch teams that don't play hard and this current group of Clippers are playing like the biggest pussies in basketball. Talent is one thing but they get outworked every game. I'm ready for baseball.
2007-03-15 12:46:25
70.   natepurcell
What kind of monster comes up with a scale that goes from 2-8??

dont ask me why but in baseball, scouts use a 20-80 scale when grading tools. Tools like running speed, hitting ability, raw power, fastball, curveball, command, etc are all graded on a 20-80 scale.

i believe meloan has a 70 curveball. alot of numerous different sources have commented on how wicked his duece is.

2007-03-15 12:46:50
71.   bhsportsguy
62 Nope.

Hint No. 2

He managed parts of two seasons and his team won the same number of games each time.

Hint No. 3

His number on the third team he played on was one of the storylines on a sitcom often discussed on these pages.

2007-03-15 12:47:26
72.   natepurcell
68
yea thats his son. He went to Mater Dei HS in Santa Ana. Everytime Mater Dei played my team we would start Darryl chants. we were mean kids.
2007-03-15 12:48:20
73.   bhsportsguy
70 Was that is out pitch in college?
2007-03-15 12:51:30
74.   ToyCannon
71
So this is just some dismal SS who holds no other significance other then the fact he was a lousy ballplayer?
2007-03-15 12:51:59
75.   Gen3Blue
No more whipping boy for St.Lou
2007-03-15 12:54:04
76.   bhsportsguy
72
We're talking...Softball.
From Maine to San Diego.
Talking'...Softball.
Mattingly and Canseco.
Ken Griffey's grotesquely swollen jaw.
Steve Sax and his run-in with the law.
We're talkin' Homer...
Ozzie, and the Straw.
2007-03-15 12:54:28
77.   BlueCrew Bruin
70 Huh. Interesting.

72 Nice. :)

2007-03-15 12:54:33
78.   StolenMonkey86
70 - that's sorta like the SAT scale
2007-03-15 12:58:33
79.   bhsportsguy
71

Your 1978 World Series MVP and persona non grata in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, Bucky Dent.

He was the first of four shortstops to be named World Series MVP (Dent, Trammell, Jeter and Eckstein)

2007-03-15 13:03:14
80.   Andrew Shimmin
The problem with laying off Pierre's defense is that there are too many metrics that disagree on it. Rate2 and FRAA don't think much of it, neither does David Pinto's Probabilistic Model of Range. That his arm is awful, everybody seems to agree on. But both Chris Dial and Dewan picked him as the 2006 NL CF gold glover. So, it's tricky.
2007-03-15 13:06:20
81.   ToyCannon
71
Have to admit I had no idea his career line was so bad. No wonder the RedSox fans are still tee'd off. That day was the closest I ever came to being arrested because I was working and a cop detained me when I was in a hurry to finish my route and get home to watch the game. I was young with a big mouth, he was stupid and didn't understand how important baseball was. I missed the home run and since I was a Sox fan it was just as well.
2007-03-15 13:07:34
82.   bhsportsguy
Bucky was the name of Captain America's sidekick in his early days. Captain America's death in next month's issue has been talked about for a few weeks now.

Bucky managed the Yankees for parts of two seasons and both times, the Yankees won 18 games.

Bucky wore number 7 when he played for the Texas Rangers in his last stop of his career.
On a episode of Seinfeld, George tells a couple who is having a baby that he always wanted to name his child 7 after Mickey Mantle.

2007-03-15 13:09:34
83.   regfairfield
I have to imagine that the scouts are using "going to 11" logic in that scale.
2007-03-15 13:10:12
84.   bhsportsguy
81 I was with some friends listening at school and I was pulling for the Red Sox because I hoped that they would play the Dodgers that year in the Series, imagining our righthand lineup of Lopes, Cey, Garvey, Baker, sometimes Reggie Smith, Yeager, all going after the Wall.
2007-03-15 13:14:09
85.   regfairfield
Speaking of players that can't hit a lick, why on Earth did the 1988 Dodgers see Alfredo Griffin's .263/.306/.348 and then say "I gotta get me some of that".
2007-03-15 13:14:10
86.   D4P
Pierre IsoD watch:

BA: .444
OBP: .444
IsoD: .000

Through 27 ABs, he has yet to walk or strikeout.

2007-03-15 13:14:52
87.   D4P
why on Earth did the 1988 Dodgers see Alfredo Griffin's .263/.306/.348 and then say "I gotta get me some of that"

Chances are, they didn't see .263/.306/.348, but rather .263

2007-03-15 13:18:41
88.   regfairfield
Okay, how about .263, Three home runs.
2007-03-15 13:21:35
89.   Andrew Shimmin
He had 26 SBs in 1987, too.
2007-03-15 13:23:23
90.   D4P
Plus, Tommy likes pasta...
2007-03-15 13:24:25
91.   Bob Timmermann
The Dodgers had given up on Mariano Duncan or Dave Anderson being any good at shortstop. Griffin had been a Rookie of the Year (sort of like Angel Berroa!) and had won a Gold Glove.

Mariano Duncan played shortstop with the grace of Al Oliver.

2007-03-15 13:24:29
92.   bhsportsguy
Luis Aparicio (HOF) .262/.311/.343
Maury Wills (MVP) .281/.330/.331
David Eckstein .283/.351/.359

And Eckstein's most comparable past player
The Scooter
Phil Rizzuto (HOF) .273/.351/.355

I will say this, the 1970s' had a ton of these guys, Bill Russell, Davey Concepcion, Larry Bowa, Frank Tavares, the list goes on and on.

Robin Yount, along with Cal Ripken and Alan Trammell were among the first shortstops in the late 1970's and 1980's to start giving a little more sock to the position.

2007-03-15 13:27:04
93.   ToyCannon
Not one of the Dodgers best deals. Griffin played a heck of a defensive SS and we got Jay Howell but we gave up Welch much to soon. It was quite irritating to see Welch and Stewart pitching like Cy Youngs for the A's.
2007-03-15 13:29:06
94.   bhsportsguy
87 And yet Walt Weiss, the man who replaced Alfredo Griffin and was awarded the 1988 A.L. Rookie of the Year performed this batting line to win the award.

.250/.312/.321

No time for the research right now but you would think a .633 OPS would put him among the lowest to ever win Rookie of the Year.

2007-03-15 13:30:17
95.   regfairfield
On the subject of crappy shortstops, why did we keep Jose Offerman there for five years? It's was clearly evident he couldn't catch the ball at all, and until his last year with the Dodgers, he never hit more than .269 with one home run (let's not speak of on base and slugging.)
2007-03-15 13:30:18
96.   Andrew Shimmin
Is it ironic that, yesterday bhsportsguy was insistent that Kemp wasn't Kareem, and Billingsley wasn't Santana or Pedro, but out of nowhere he's trying to get Slappy Eckstein into the HOF?
2007-03-15 13:30:27
97.   Bob Timmermann
Stewart definitely improved with Oakland as he got regular work as a starter. Welch was about the same as an Athletic as he was with the Dodgers except that he had a much better offense behind him.

In his CYA year, Welch had an ERA+ of 126, but in 1985 with the Dodgers he went 14-4 and had an ERA+ of 151!

2007-03-15 13:30:40
98.   ToyCannon
91
Dave Anderson one of the most overhyped Dodger prospects ever. After Greg Brock, or maybe after Franklin Stubbs, or maybe after Billy Ashley, or maybe after Jeff Hamilton, or maybe after Roger Cedeno, or maybe after Rudy Law, or maybe after...
2007-03-15 13:32:01
99.   ToyCannon
Offerman was to SS as Roger Cedeno was to CF.
He's the only Dodger I ever booed after I turned 25.
2007-03-15 13:33:11
100.   Bob Timmermann
Offerman was a Minor League Player of the Year! He homered in his first AB in the majors!

Such promise!

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-03-15 13:34:54
101.   D4P
On topic, I was looking at Delino DeShields's numbers earlier today, and they're not nearly as bad as I remembered.

His IsoD's went up from Montreal to LA, with a 107 in 1994 and a 97 in 1995. His main problem was a big drop in BA of around 40 points, causing his OBP and SLG to take big hits. Still, he managed to get on base more than 35% of the time and put of respectable EQAs of .264 and .271.

1996 is a different story.

2007-03-15 13:36:52
102.   bhsportsguy
94 Walt Weiss had 11 career home runs in over 3000 plate appearances from 1987 to 1995.

In 1996, playing in his third year for the Rockies and his second at Coors Field, he hit 8 in 530 or so plate appearances, 5 at home and 3 on the road.

Of course baseball was still recovering from the 1994 Strike, but MLB wouldn't have done something to the ball would they.

Weiss hit 6 more home runs in nearly 1200 plate appearances during the next 4 seasons.

2007-03-15 13:40:08
103.   ToyCannon
I think if they had put him at 2nd base or CF early in his career he'd had a solid career as a Dodger. He had a very solid Avg/OB% from 95-99. He wasn't an offensive cipher but was one of the few Dominicans who took a walk and even posted two years with a > 390 OB%. Kind of like todays Luis Castillo a player with speed, who could hit for average, take a walk but had little power.
2007-03-15 13:40:56
104.   ToyCannon
I was talking about Offerman not Delino or Weiss.
2007-03-15 13:41:45
105.   bhsportsguy
96 Its kinda the opposite, the Scooter would not have gotten in without the old Veterans Committee system.

My point was that Eckstein was a throwback player to the 1970's shortstop but I do think that most here who know those guys would say that they were better fielders (Russell not a lot range but had a decent if not somewhat unreliable arm) than Eckstein.

2007-03-15 13:48:18
106.   bhsportsguy
101 I always thought it was never really what Delino did here (though it would have helped) it was more Tommy's insistence that Pedro couldn't start and that being proved wrong from year to year.
2007-03-15 13:49:04
107.   Benjamin Miracord
The disappointing part of the Dodgers @ Milwaukee Brewers is that we get Charley Steiner/Steve Lyons broadcasting the Season Opener instead of Vin Scully.
2007-03-15 13:55:44
108.   ToyCannon
105
Russel was a lousy defensive SS and not close to the group you mentioned. A real SS would have thrown at Reggies head and made him hit the dirt like your taught to do on the dish. DeJesus almost took his job and he was the biggest offensive cipher around. I hope his boy is better otherwise he'd have to be a gold glove SS to be worth keeping around.
2007-03-15 13:57:03
109.   Bob Timmermann
Russell wasn't a bad shortstop if you didn't mind the lack of range or the poor throwing arm.
2007-03-15 13:58:38
110.   Bob Timmermann
107
I hope Lyons has learned something from his "oblique racially tinged bad joke sensitivity training."
2007-03-15 13:58:58
111.   ToyCannon
Watching the A's/Rockie game and they said that Harden just hit 101. Man I hope he stays healthy this year. Would love to see what he could do. Please don't become the next Prior.
2007-03-15 14:00:53
112.   Jacob L
79 Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the 78 WS MVP was Craig Nettles. As far as I'm concerned Nettles is more of a persona non grata, at least in Southern California.
2007-03-15 14:03:06
113.   CanuckDodger
The scouting scale is 20 to 80 because on that scale 50 is the midway point, indicating "average," just as 50 is the midway point between 0 and 100. So why not have a 0 to 100 scale? Because scouts don't need that big a range to cover the categories of "poor," "well-below average," "below average," "average," "above average," "well-above average," and "outstanding." So why not have a 0 to 60 scale? Because 30 would then be the mid-point, and 50 more intuitively screams "average" than 30.
2007-03-15 14:03:52
114.   ToyCannon
Nope
Graig Nettles
Full name Graig Nettles
Born August 20, 1944, San Diego, California
First Game: September 6, 1967; Final Game: October 1, 1988
Bat: Left Throw: Right Height: 6' 0" Weight: 180
Brother of Jim Nettles

Named AL League Championship Series Most Valuable Player (1981)
Named third baseman on The Sporting News AL All-Star Team (1975 and 1977 to 1978)
Won AL Gold Glove as third baseman (1977 to 1978
2007-03-15 14:04:20
115.   Bob Timmermann
112
You are wrong.

The 77 MVP was Jackson.
The 78 MVP was Dent.

Of the WS that is.

2007-03-15 14:05:14
116.   Bob Timmermann
In 1977 and 1978, Nettles was 8 for 46 in the World Series.

He fielded very well though.

2007-03-15 14:05:18
117.   trainwreck
113
aka scouts are stupid.
2007-03-15 14:05:41
118.   ToyCannon
111
I don't think I was ever more in awe of a player while at the same time hating him then I was with Nettles in the 77 Series.
2007-03-15 14:06:18
119.   regfairfield
113 And another one of life's mysteries is solved.
2007-03-15 14:07:01
120.   ToyCannon
WooHoo - ToyCannon 1 Timmerman 99339
2007-03-15 14:08:30
121.   twerp
97 "In his CYA year..."

Yeah, I've had a couple years like that.

Oh...different kind of CYA. Never mind.

2007-03-15 14:10:15
122.   Bob Timmermann
In the postseason, Nettles was pretty bad at the plate. He did win the MVP of the 1981 ALCS, but that lasted just three games and he was 6 for 12. Nettles batted .225 in 53 postseason games.

Nettles missed a good portion of the 1981 World Series because of an injury and the Yankees had to use Aurelio Rodriguez, who was, to put it bluntly, bad.

2007-03-15 14:14:12
123.   bhsportsguy
Do you think Don Zimmer ever gets asked why he pitched to Bucky Dent?
2007-03-15 14:14:15
124.   Bumsrap
109 When Russel was first brought up he played CF. I saw him throw a ball with his right foot literally touching the Center field fence in Dodger Stadium to second base. The ball never got over Russel's head, it was a frozen rope. Russel had a tremendous arm.

He was quick but he never dove for a ball because he said he hurt himself too often when he did and that reduced his range more than his foot speed did.

He never played infield in the minors and learned it on-the-job. He was never considered in the same class defensively as Dave Conception but he was a very good clutch hitter capable of drilling doubles despite choking up on the bat as much as he did.

His throwing index finger was permantently curled after it was hit by a pitch holding the bat in bunting position. It was his broken bat that flew into Yeager's neck.

2007-03-15 14:21:06
125.   Bumsrap
108 If a runner is coming hard at you it is natural to throw the ball in a way that makes the runner either duck or go outside of the baseline.

If the runner is standing between bases the attempt to throw at his head too easily could wind up over the first baseman's head and into the seats.

It wasn't that Russel's throw was not smart, it was the lack of a call by the umpiring crew. I am still mad at Jackson for exposing cowardly umpires.

2007-03-15 14:21:34
126.   ToyCannon
I liked Russel but I think they should have just kept him in CF. He did seem to be a clutch hitter, his offensive skills were limited but the position didn't require much offense when he played. The Dodgers took two players who probably would have been above average defensive center fielders and made them our keystone combo for years and kept congratulating themselves on how smart they were. Neither infielder would ever dive for a groundball. It would be an interesting study to see if they really did the right thing.
2007-03-15 14:21:58
127.   Bob Timmermann
The Yankees had 1st and 2nd when Dent homered.

With Mickey Rivers on deck.

Although I'm sure you were being facetious.

2007-03-15 14:24:44
128.   Bumsrap
123 Grady just wants to know why Zimmer didn't change pitchers. Speaking of guns, Zimmer had one and Vinny used to have fun describing Zimmer's throws from short.

How does a round balk guy play short anyway at the MLB level.

2007-03-15 14:27:27
129.   twerp
118. Just going from memory, Nettles' fielding rocket after rocket off Dodger bats and throwing them out at first was a big turning point in that WS.

Seemed like the frustration set in and spilled over into other areas. In a short, intense series the mental side of the game is extremely important. Nettles' fielding put the Dodgers in a funk.

BTW, I still don't buy that the Yankees were better both those years. But the record says what I do or don't buy doesn't matter.

2007-03-15 14:30:34
130.   Bumsrap
St.L needs pitching and just got a look at the awesome Hendrickson. Let me be the first to start the Hendrickson for Pujols urmor.
2007-03-15 14:34:58
131.   Vishal
[113] that's awfully convoluted logic, but i suppose it makes sense.
2007-03-15 14:39:45
132.   Jon Weisman
Up, up in the sky ... it's a bird ... it's a plane ... it's a new post!
2007-03-15 17:01:52
133.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
Re: 51

Rather pointless with the new thread, but I wanted to acknowledge my error...

WWSH

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