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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

The Ultimate Spring Training Job-Winner
2007-03-27 09:40
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

It was about 20 years ago today that The Most Obscure but Memorable Dodger, The Second Mike Ramsey, for a brief moment in the sun, became the Dodgers' starting center fielder.

After spending most of 1986 in AA with a cup of coffee in AAA, Ramsey hit .310 in Spring Training 1987, and the Dodgers, who had alternated Reggie Williams, Ken Landreaux, Jose Gonzalez and yes, for 23 games, Franklin Stubbs in center field in 1986, gave Ramsey the job.

When the regular season began, he stroked 10 hits in his first 28 at-bats. Then it started to come apart. He tried to hang in there with a batting average in the low .200s, but by late May, the Dodgers gave up and traded for John Shelby.

Ramsey was sent back to the minors. He came up in September, only to be used as a pinch runner and defensive replacement. The season ended, and with it, the major-league career of Mike Ramsey. He never made it back.

So that's how Ramsey became a finalist - someone who had hopes pinned to him like Eeyore's tail, wagging for a brief moment, only to fall off and disappear into the soil and grass of summers gone by.

The clincher for Ramsey is that only two years earlier, the Dodgers had another player named Mike Ramsey - Michael Jeffrey Ramsey. This First Mike Ramsey was more obscure and less memorable than The Second Mike Ramsey. And yet, both exist. So while The Second Mike Ramsey was memorable, it is also true that by virtue of his brief April/May career and his need to be distinguished from The First Mike Ramsey (as Bob Timmermann did in nominating the pair as "The White Mike Ramsey and The Black White Ramsey"), he retains his core obscurity. He holds the balance between being and nothingness.

The Second Mike Ramsey is, in short, The Most Obscure but Memorable Los Angeles Dodger.

Honestly, I think it's a real honor.

On May 22, the Dodgers acquired struggling, 29-year-old centerfielder named John Shelby (along with Brad Havens) from Baltimore in exchange for Tom Niedenfuer. Shelby went on to hit a career-high 22 home runs that season, and the sun set on Mike Ramsey's Dodger life. But not my memories of him.

 

The Second Mike Ramsey Stats

  G AB R H 2B 3B HR BB SO SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS
AA San Antonio 1986 119 427 71 122 18 5 2 -- -- -- -- .286 ---- .365 .----
Spring Training 1987 25 42 5 13 2 0 0 3 6 3 0 .310 .356 .357 .713
Regular Season 1987 48 125 18 29 4 2 0 10 32 2 4 .232 .287 .296 .583

Update: Early nominee for quote of the year: Andy What's His Name. From Steve Henson in the Times:

Upon further contemplation, Andy LaRoche wants to close the gap between the lower case 'a' and upper case 'R' in his surname. In other words, clubhouse manager can discard the jersey that reads La Roche.

LaRoche requested that his name be spelled with the space about a month ago, a departure from the way his brother — Pittsburgh Pirates first baseman Adam — and father — former big league pitcher Dave — spelled it.

"I ought to go with it the way everybody else does," Andy said. "I'm not sure what I was thinking."


Last year's early nominee was, poignantly, Joel Guzman:

As reported by Jerry Crowe in the Times ... Joel Guzman, on his move to left field:

"I kind of like it. I'm not loving it, like McDonald's."
Comments (330)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-03-27 09:58:38
1.   Jon Weisman
I had nothing to do with this, but it was a nice gesture on someone's or someones' part:

http://thebuzzerbeat.blogspot.com/2007/03/top-10-baseball-blogs.html

2007-03-27 09:59:07
2.   Jacob L
I'm still a little bitter that my suggestions for MOBMD didn't get more consideration -

Joe Beckwith - who else had his career setback by double vision?

Chad Fonville - name recognition among Dodger fans, almost 100%. name recognition among other baseball fans, almost 0.

Vic Davalillo - probably not that obscure, but the fact is that his name swam around in my head for decades for no discernable reason.

2007-03-27 10:02:02
3.   Bumsrap
My 25 Dodgers:

Furcal, Kemp, Loney, Garciapara, Kent, Ethier, Martin, Pierre

Leiberthal, Saenz, Gonzo, Bigbie, Clark, Martinez

Schmidt, Lowe, Penny, Wolf, Tomko

Billingsley, Tsao, Seanez, Biemel, Broxton, Saito

First callups: Greg Miller, Jon Meloan, Brazabon

Traded away: Betemit, Hendrickson, Anderson,

2007-03-27 10:03:25
4.   Bumsrap
Glen Burke and his World Series Willie Mays catch but then there is "the rest of the story.....
2007-03-27 10:04:19
5.   Jacob L
Hey when did the baseball card blog show up on the toaster? I missed the memo. That blog is awesome! (Yeah, I guess I should make that comment over there, but I'm wondering if I'm not the only DT commenter to miss it.)
2007-03-27 10:04:40
6.   Jon Weisman
Chad, Vic and Glenn aren't nearly obscure enough. Joe Beckwith is closer, but still doesn't beat TSMR.
2007-03-27 10:05:28
7.   Jon Weisman
5 - Well, on the sidebar where you saw "Cardboard Gods," there's also a post from Fairpole saying, "Welcome, Cardboard Gods."
2007-03-27 10:05:42
8.   Suffering Bruin
What do teachers do while watching 35 students take a quiz? They post on DT, of course. :)

Which Mike Ramsey beat out Mike Devereaux (sp?) for the CF job? Bill James in one of his abstracts devoted some words on that subject, suggesting that everyone who saw the two thought Devereaux was the better player and yet Ramsey got the gig. James memorably concluded, "You can get away with crap if you're right. You think you know more than the numbers, more than what everyone else seems to think? Fine. You better be right. Ramsey couldn't do the job in any respect."

I gotta admit, there's some truth to what James wrote and I kind of miss that arrogance. Lost in the nostalgia we all have for the Garvey/Lopes/Russell/Cey days is the arrogance that team showed. Dave Winfield: "They would show up and say, 'we're gonna kick your ass this series.' And they would. You'd get tired of it.'" I often muse on the usefulness of arrogance, particularly when I view my students (talk about arrogance!). I used to think it was never a good thing to have or show. I'm not so sure anymore.

2007-03-27 10:16:59
9.   bigcpa
Henson is reporting Loney to be sent down.

http://tinyurl.com/2rno3l

2007-03-27 10:17:20
10.   screwballin
1 It didn't seem like a nice gesture to me. More just a correction of a blatant error. DT should be on that list. Period. I can think of precious few baseball blogs that can match this one for its combination of community, interesting commentary, and thoughtful, well-written posts. And because you all have managed to rise above the typical flame-fests found elsewhere, you've really made this a special place that deserves the recognition.

I don't post often, but I come here daily because of all of the above. So a tip of my faded, stained Dodger cap to you all.

2007-03-27 10:18:51
11.   Benaiah
1 - It was an egregious omission and I imagine that many people told them so.
2007-03-27 10:19:40
12.   Bob Timmermann
The Black White Ramsey was an outfielder. The White Mike Ramsey was an infielder.
2007-03-27 10:39:12
13.   Eric Enders
9 We had a lot of righteous indignation over that near the end of the last thread.
2007-03-27 10:50:09
14.   bhsportsguy
9 Hey now (Larry Sanders reference):

Its probably not a fair test to have Kemp, La Roche, etc. facing an apparently on top of his game Cris Carpenter.

2007-03-27 10:50:30
15.   Eric Enders
And Loney says "screw you, Ned Colletti," by getting a hit in his first AB today.

Maybe he'll just decide to get a hit every single time he bats until they call him up.

2007-03-27 10:56:55
16.   underdog
Oh good, I get to listen to the drunken Cardinals announcers - he's doing "color" this morning sounds like. Guess it's better than listening to the drunken people on the street outside the office I work in.

Well, I guess we shouldn't give Tomko a hard time for giving up a home run to Pujols.

2007-03-27 10:58:01
17.   underdog
Oh no... "Mike will be back for the fifth."

Yeah, shaken but not stirred, I'm sure.

2007-03-27 10:58:54
18.   bhsportsguy
16 I think we should just hit him everytime up this year. (Images of Odalis giving up another homer to Albert) Shudder.
2007-03-27 10:59:49
19.   dsfan
On the bright side, could the time in AAA allow Loney to become a more competent OF and improve his chances of returning to the Dodgers pre-Nomar injury? And could Loney use the time there to boost his power a bit? I don't blame him for being upset, but I think it can be beneficial for him if he attacks it.

As for Kemp and LaRoche, they should benefit from being in AAA. I'd like to see Kemp kill it in AAA for a couple of months, consolidate some of his experiences from last year, continue to play some CF, increasing his versatility. As White has noted, Kemp played a lot of basketball, didn't get as much baseball experience as a lot of guys his age who are now advanced prospects.

LaRoche, coming off the shoulder surgery, probably needs to find his game, particularly on defense.

2007-03-27 11:02:26
20.   bhsportsguy
My question is why did he let him drive the car?

http://tinyurl.com/3633ps

2007-03-27 11:04:21
21.   jujibee
With the logjamb of "average" talent that we have, it causes me pain to see a youngster who appears to be ready to further his career be sent back down. In the midst of all of what is goin on, I find myself wondering if the Dodgers outfield would have been as adequate as it is currently, Gonzo/Pierre/Ethier, if they substituted Clark and Bigbie in there for Pierre and Gonzo, opening up spots for Loney and Kemp, and all the while saving a 15ish million. Personally, with what I've seen so far, I'd rather have Bigbie than Gonzo and a Clark for Pierre would be one of the "as long as he's gone" moves I would be content with.

Furcal
Martin
Garciappara/Loney
Kent
Bigbie
Betemit
Ethier
Clark

with Kemp spelling any 3 outfielders from time to time.

2007-03-27 11:07:56
22.   Benaiah
20 - That is unbelievable. The producer definitely handled it with class, I probably would have choked him to death. OT, Undercover Brother is a very funny movie.
2007-03-27 11:12:34
23.   ssjames
Loney being sent down is the last straw for me, and has now completely pushed me over into the Colleti is just an incompetent GM camp. I gave him the benefit of the doubt for a long time, with some of his questionable moves. I tried to understand his reasoning for his moves, sometimes having great difficulty doing so.

Colleti had stuck by the idea that a youngster needs to kick down the door to make the big league club, which is fine, but what more do you want Loney to do? He led the minors in hitting last year, he is tearing up Spring Training again this year. He clear would be one of our three or four best hitters on the big league club as of today, and he gets sent down.

The saddest thing is that Colleti is probably in very little danger of losing his job despite his nearly atrocious moves. He has so much young talent that they will carry this team to at worst a second place finish, and probably the playoffs. Instead of capatilizing on this, Colleti is throwing roadblocks in the way of creating a team that could potentially dominate at least the NL West and probably all of the NL for the next 5-6 years.

I am furious, and I want him fired.

2007-03-27 11:17:41
24.   Sushirabbit
All this power talk might be a little misguided... just think back less than a year ago:

https://dodgerthoughts.baseballtoaster.com/archives/425716.html

Not that this team is as stacked with good hitters, Drew and even Lofton were no slouches in the OB category, but it wasn't HRs that got the Dodgers to the playoffs last year.

2007-03-27 11:18:23
25.   Humma Kavula
Mrs. Kavula was the voice of reason this morning:

"Well, at least he didn't trade Loney for Clark."

In addition to being lovely and talented, Mrs. Kavula is wise and patient.

2007-03-27 11:18:25
26.   natepurcell
i think sometime in the not too distant future, the dodgers will have to choose: colletti or logan white.

and i think their decision will not make us happy.

2007-03-27 11:18:31
27.   underdog
You can feel as livid as you want but there's something about flipping out about a thing that hasn't actually happened that could be wasted energy? Just mho.
2007-03-27 11:19:12
28.   Benaiah
23 - I personally don't necessarily assume Loney is getting sent down. Today's Dodger Notes for said that Marlon Anderson might not make the team due to injury (with the implication being that Bigbie and Loney will make the team). I am taking a believe it when I see it approach to this one. Jackson's article is the only source, and it wouldn't surprise me if he was wrong.
2007-03-27 11:19:51
29.   underdog
This Cards announcer sounds like he's in a coma anytime the Dodgers get a hit, and takes an extra few minutes it seems to tell us what actually happened - as with Kent's hit just now.
2007-03-27 11:20:23
30.   blue22
23 - Well, he hasn't traded him...yet.

My silver lining take on this is that there isn't a spot in the starting lineup (try as we might to squeeze Nomar somewhere else on the diamond, realistically it isn't happening). Loney will be back up the first time any hole needs plugging; in the meantime he continues to tear up AAA while getting 35 at-bats a week (probably double what he'd get in LA).

The strange thing is, why isn't he following this same pattern with Billingsley? Given this Loney thought process, Billingsley should be in the Vegas rotation. Apples and oranges?

2007-03-27 11:20:47
31.   Sushirabbit
It does seem a long time since the Dodgers had a real homegrown outfield power hitter like we all want Kemp to be. I can't think of who the last one was off the top of my head.
2007-03-27 11:21:30
32.   blue22
31 - Mondesi?
2007-03-27 11:21:53
33.   Eric Enders
31 He won Rookie of the Year in 1994.
2007-03-27 11:24:30
34.   screwballin
21 I guess what we're seeing here is the Dodgers admitting that he's not ready for the outfield yet? From the few ST games I saw, he looked pretty shaky. I would hate to see the fans turn against him if he's butchering the job. And given what a terrific defender he is at 1b, it might be a serious blow to his pride and confidence to do on-the-job training at a second position in front of 40,000 fans.

And I guess they want Nomar in the lineup if he's healthy, so there's nothing left for Loney.

It's a shame, but I think we all know it's very temporary.

2007-03-27 11:26:34
35.   underdog
Argh, La Roche hits into a double play, with Loney on deck. I was rooting for Loney to come up and drive in some runs. At least I think he hit into a double play - it was hard to tell between Mike Shannon's cocktail hour.
2007-03-27 11:26:56
36.   Benaiah
Since Kemp took out his contacts he is batting .300/.363/.900. This is in 11 Plate Appearances, but I will nevertheless pretend it is significant.
2007-03-27 11:27:16
37.   Sushirabbit
31-33, Yeah Mondesi, unless you count, a-hmmm, Hollandsworth.
2007-03-27 11:27:23
38.   underdog
Mondesi, Piazza and Guerrero are the ones I can think of, from the last 20 years.
2007-03-27 11:29:16
39.   underdog
Pujols was just gunned out at third by Kemp.

Tsao's not off to a good start here, though - two hits by first two batters.

2007-03-27 11:30:00
40.   Jon Weisman
24 - I've talked about that a lot - it was OBP and clutch hitting, neither of which they're guaranteed to repeat this year. But one can hope.
2007-03-27 11:30:13
41.   Sushirabbit
And Mondesi was drafted in 1988.
2007-03-27 11:31:13
42.   underdog
And then a double play solves everything.
2007-03-27 11:31:33
43.   still bevens
Some silver lining to our self-induced Loney flagelation... Looks like Tomko had a fine day. 5 IP, couple'a hits, 3 K's and one walk. Not a bad day's work for a #5. Unfortunately Carpenter is owning us.
2007-03-27 11:32:07
44.   PHilldodger
19

It's been hashed and re-hashed pretty extensively, but the demotion of Loney is an indication of how Colletti and Co. make decisions. Loney won't add any more power by playing a month or two in AAA than he would with LA. Any added power will come with age and experience, not by facing more AAA pitching.
1000+ plate appearances from Luis Gonzales and Juan Pierre. Woohoo!

2007-03-27 11:33:49
45.   underdog
40 Very true. And on the other hand, it's also possible they may get more power than expected from people like Ethier, Martin, Pierre (no, I'm kidding), and even Kent could be better than last year if healthy. It may even out, but it's very possible they at least won't be worse in the power department than last year, even without Drew.
2007-03-27 11:35:44
46.   Sushirabbit
40 Oh, I know, that's why I linked to the archive. Sometimes I'm pretty dumb, but I do TRY to learn. :-)

I was just sort of realizing that the lack of Power is coming down on Loney partly because of the perceived deficiency, well it's real in the sense that we don't have the OneBigBat. And he'd get that wrap at 1B anyway, but if we had drew and Soriano, would he be in the lineup?

It's still speculation at this point anyway.

2007-03-27 11:38:34
47.   blue22
45 - They effectively replaced Drew and Lofton with Pierre and LuGo. That's got to hurt the power and OBP areas (remind me again what areas were upgraded as a result of that swap?). The only upgrade in power I see (on the current roster) will come from a full season of Betemit.

This team won't get anymore power until Kemp arrives and/or a trade is made.

2007-03-27 11:40:04
48.   screwballin
44 Really, though, is it safe to assume he's being sent down to work on hitting? Defense counts too, and assuming he'd need to play outfield to get much playing time, his outfield play needs work. At least, that may be what Ned is thinking.

If Loney goes to Vegas and starts at 1b, though, then never mind. Is there even a spot for him there in the OF?

2007-03-27 11:41:33
49.   blue22
48 - Is there even a spot for him there in the OF?

I think, with the exception of Kemp, you make room for Loney (if that's their intention).

2007-03-27 11:42:01
50.   ssjames
44 The scary part of that is what Nate mentioned above, specifically I don't think that it is how Logan White would feel, and without Logan White right now this team would be lucky to finish 4th in the NL West. Take away the parts added through the minors and our catcher is Mike Lieberthal, we have no Broxton, no Martin, no Ethier (who Logan knew and told Colleti to trade for), no Billingsely, no Betimit (because we wouldn't have had Aybar to trade for him), and there would be no Kemp, LaRoche, Loney, Miller, Elbert, et al. in the wings.

I just hope that White doesn't get fed up with Colleti's nonsense and decide he does want to be a GM for another team.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-03-27 11:45:32
51.   Benaiah
50 - To be fair, I think that Logan White would take a GM job either way. It is a career after all, and the best job you can get is GM, so when the times comes he is going to take a GM job. I think we get 2-3 more years out of him before he keeps trucking. Or, maybe, if we are really lucky, in 2-3 years he can be the new GM for the Dodgers and take over for Flanders.
2007-03-27 11:46:51
52.   screwballin
I see that the LAT story says Loney and LaRoche will both be playing a lot of OF in Vegas. Here's hoping they pick it up quickly.
2007-03-27 11:46:55
53.   natepurcell
51

thats what i mean by the dodgers will have to choose. Im sure if offered, white would take the dodgers GM position over any other GM position.

2007-03-27 11:48:05
54.   Humma Kavula
50
Take away the parts added through the minors and our catcher is Mike Lieberthal, we have no Broxton, no Martin, no Ethier (who Logan knew and told Colleti to trade for), no Billingsely, no Betimit (because we wouldn't have had Aybar to trade for him), and there would be no Kemp, LaRoche, Loney, Miller, Elbert, et al. in the wings.

That assumes that whoever had the job instead of White would have been 100% incompetent. While that person may not have had White's success, I'm not sure that complete incompetence would have been the substitute.

Then again, maybe I'm giving 'em too much credit.

2007-03-27 11:48:36
55.   still bevens
Man we are getting killed by the Cardinal's defense today. Either that or the announcers are a bunch of sensationalists.
2007-03-27 11:54:31
56.   bhsportsguy
26 Seriously, unless someone here as a direct line to Logan White, the idea that he would be "upset" about the current state of the roster is even beyond the word of speculation.

First off, I think that Kim Ng is going to be the first Front office person to be given another opportunity to run a team. Logan White, for all of his strengths, has primarily been in just one area of the front office, which is scouting and even then, scouting for the draft. Now, he will work on the international side and get a bigger picture on the organizaiton as a whole.

Kim Ng has handled all the various rules about transactions, was in charge of overseeing the minor league system during DePodesta's first year, makes deals and had put in time on two high market teams.

Now, at some point both White and Ng will be given chances to move up but they are not going to be leaving the Dodgers because Kemp, Loney or La Roche are starting this season in Vegas.

2007-03-27 11:56:07
57.   bhsportsguy
And, we are going to get a glimpse of how the scouting department is going to handle the draft with a new Scouting Director (even with White at the top) for the Dodgers for this year's draft.
2007-03-27 11:57:18
58.   GoBears
If Loney is sent down, I can't say I'd be surprised. Colletti has done nothing right so far except throw more money than anyone else at Schmidt and Furcal, find an even more no-hit-SS-obsessed GM to help turn Izturis into Maddux, and not trade any of the top prospects YET.

But if he's going to ignore the fact that Loney has knocked down the door, then it's clear that his plan is not just old-school - it's self-defeating. Never take a chance on a kid, but take a chance on every mediocre veteran you can find (hey, he had one good year - maybe he can repeat it!).

And I'm not nearly as sanguine as some that these "mistakes" are just temporary. Even leaving aside the 5 yrs to Pierre, Colletti has shown every sign that if a veteran does get injured, he'd rather swap for an even more mediocre veteran than let a kid take over. Anderson, Clark, Lugo, Hall, Hendrickson, etc.etc. The only real exception has been Russell Martin.

There's only one reason to make kids wait their turn. If you need to win now, and the high-ceiling kids are not yet as good as roster-fodder vets, then wait.

But if the kids are already better than the guys they're behind, then there's one more reason to go with the vets - to put off arbitration so that you can have the prospects during their prime years for cheap.

But if you're a big-market team, willing to throw millions at proven mediocrities, then clearly you can afford to pay a stud prospect a year earlier than you "have to."

Which means that there are no more excuses for doing what Colletti is doing. Frankly, as I've said before, I think the problem is NOT that Colletti has a goofy master plan. I think the problem is that he's has 30-yr-old ideas about how to evaluate talent, so he actually thinks he IS putting his best 25 on the ML roster. We're all pretty sure he's wrong about that, but his is the only opinion that matters.

2007-03-27 11:57:56
59.   Benaiah
53 - Despite the fact that Colletti is seen as mediocre to truly inept in some circles, I imagine that he is seen as good to great by most people. I can see his strengths (he is very good about have a backup plan, and understands the value of league average), but he has glaring weaknesses (overly conservative, overvalues vet, is constantly in search of a bridge too far). Yet, I would put the over/under on his total tenure with the Dodgers at 5.5 years. The farm system will make up for most of his mistakes, he has more payroll or at least uses more payroll than Depodesta, and I can not imagine him allowing things to get as far out of hand as they did in 2005. He is mediocre in just the right way to last for a long, long time.

Depodesta was better at many things, but his weaknesses (or perceived weaknesses) were the kind that someone like McCourt couldn't tolerate, plus 2005 was the perfect storm. Despite how much it irks us, how much outrage do you demoting Loney will bring? One article? A blurb? Nothing?

2007-03-27 11:59:49
60.   Eric Enders
54 We had complete and utter incompetence in the 10 years before White, so it's not out of the question.

Pedro Guerrero was not homegrown BTW.

Somebody mentioned signing Mondesi in 1988. Did anyone ever notice what a spectacular month June 1988 was in Dodger history? Not only did they go 17-11 that month to take over the NL West lead for good, but they also made the following transactions:

June 1, 1988
Drafted Eric Karros in the 6th round of the 1988 amateur draft.

June 1, 1988
Drafted Mike Piazza in the 62nd round of the 1988 amateur draft.

June 6, 1988 (Standings)
Signed Raul Mondesi as an amateur free agent.

June 18, 1988
Signed Pedro Martinez as an amateur free agent.

After a good couple of weeks, the Dodger scouting department then went on a well-deserved vacation. For 12 years.

2007-03-27 12:05:25
61.   Terry A
55 - Go with the latter. The Cards announcers are some of the worst, which oddly translates to "beloved cultural icon" in St. Louis.

P.S. -- Loney perhaps-maybe-possibly getting sent down is an affront and a farce.

2007-03-27 12:07:18
62.   Eric Enders
56 "Seriously, unless someone here as a direct line to Logan White, the idea that he would be "upset" about the current state of the roster is even beyond the word of speculation."

I don't necessarily think so. Look at it this way. You work for a Fortune 500 company. In a board meeting, there are several proposals regarding the company's future direction. You put a lot of time and effort into a proposal, which turns out to be head and shoulders above the rest, far and away the best proposal presented. That proposal is flatly rejected for reasons that make sense to nobody.

It would not be leaping to conclusions to assume you are probably very upset. And that situation is exactly what has just happened to Logan White.

(BTW, as for the length of Colletti's tenure, I think he'll last a lot longer than 5.5 years. We will win a pennant or World Series sometime in the next 4 years, and Colletti will get the Fred Claire treatment. That is, a decade's worth of job security based on early success, regardless of demonstrable incompetence.)

2007-03-27 12:07:42
63.   madmac
At least nobody overreacts on this blog. Hasn't it just been media speculation to this point regarding Loney going down. He hasn't been sent as far as I know and I haven't read any quotes from Little or Ned saying it was likely. Kemp and La Roche should be sent down. Loney belongs if he is playing 1st, but not if they want him in the outfield. Regardless of who is on the ML roster when the season starts I will wish them well and hope they perform like all-stars. I'm a Dodger fan. I will not wish for Ned's firing because I thought he should have kept someone on the ML team. I didn't always agree with DePo and actually it hurt to see him make some of the moves he made, but I always tried to give him the benefit of doubt.
2007-03-27 12:08:13
64.   underdog
Former Dodger Jolbert Cabrera alert.

And... he pops out.

2007-03-27 12:09:29
65.   Humma Kavula
One thing that's keeping my chin up is this: Colletti can't keep Loney in Vegas forever, and as soon as he's on the roster, my belief -- based on nothing except last year -- is that Little will play him.
2007-03-27 12:09:36
66.   underdog
63 meet my 27 ;-)

---

Adam Godwin, or "Goodwin," as Barney Gumbel the Cardinals announcer calls him, is actually getting an at bat.

2007-03-27 12:09:53
67.   Eric Enders
63 "Hasn't it just been media speculation to this point regarding Loney going down."

No. Henson has quoted a front office official. So the two possibilities are:
1) The front office official is lying to Henson, or
2) Henson is lying to us.

2007-03-27 12:11:10
68.   Humma Kavula
63 Except that it would appear that Loney has been led to believe that he will be sent down. If you're Colletti or Little, and you were planning to keep Loney on the roster, wouldn't you take Loney aside after his comments in Monday's paper and say, "Don't worry so much?"
2007-03-27 12:11:46
69.   Humma Kavula
Or you can read 67, which is shorter and has more information.
2007-03-27 12:12:29
70.   still bevens
Wow what a terrible day for LaRoche. 1K, 2 HIDP.
2007-03-27 12:13:08
71.   underdog
Well, the Dodgers offense went (even further) south in this one. Meaningless game over. Can we start the season already?
2007-03-27 12:16:01
72.   GoBears
63. Nice straw man there, madmac. If sending Loney down were the first dumb decision Colletti had made, people would still disagree with it, but they wouldn't be calling for Ned's head. But it is yet another straw that fits a depressing pattern and now very obvious pattern. For some, it's the last straw. For me, that was Pierre, with several more subsequent straws just to add insult to injury.

Giving the benefit of the doubt depends on what you perceive the overall plan to be. And that is the difference between the current and former GMs.

2007-03-27 12:17:29
73.   Jon Weisman
67 - "Barring a last-minute change of heart by the front office"

Like that's never happened before.

I'm not trying to be naive, and certainly, you can make the case that Loney shouldn't even be on the bubble. But it's not as if anyone knew Dessens would be traded yesterday. They could easily be working on a Bigbie trade.

Plus, the whole Marlon Anderson question remains.

2007-03-27 12:17:48
74.   trainwreck
UFC buying Pride is in the headlines on ESPN.com.
2007-03-27 12:19:15
75.   JoeyP
We will win a pennant or World Series sometime in the next 4 years

For that to happen, Ned needs to either be willing to pay for the top flight, in their prime--free agent.

Or, play the kids.

So far, none of that has happened.

Instead, its been a steady stream of average salary inflated veterans--of which you'll never be too bad and never be too good with. Just average.

Average teams do happen to win Pennants from time to time, but I dont expect the Dodgers to in the next 5 years.

2007-03-27 12:21:34
76.   Benaiah
I was just reading Schilling's blog and it is cool how into advanced statistics Curt is.

"Staying away from walks keeps the crooked number theory very much in play. For most pitchers you rarely see 2 hits leading to a run, even rarer that teams will bunch 3 or more hits together. You add a walk into the mix, or two, and those 2-3 hits lead to 2 or more runs. Simple math; the on base percentage for a base on balls is .1000, the on base percentage for even some of the easier to hit pitchers in the game is .300, or lower. If a hitter puts the ball in play, even the best hitters, he makes an out 65% of the time if he's a GREAT hitter, 70% or more for most guys that play the game."

He is basically talking about BABIP there, and he says that he reads Baseball Prospectus and likes VORP and stuff like that.

2007-03-27 12:21:41
77.   madmac
67,68 It is still all an overreaction. Not by Loney, but by many of the posters. Certainly Loney would have every right to be upset. I'd be concerned if he wasn't. Gee, Henson is always spot on, don't no why I wouldn't take everything he writes as gospel. Still, if Loney starts in Vegas it does not warrant the venom that is being spewed by many.
2007-03-27 12:21:44
78.   Daniel Zappala
Bleah, no runs, 5 singles, 1 double. Where did Luis Maza and Larry Barnes come from? Barnes is still around?
2007-03-27 12:30:45
79.   Humma Kavula
77 Why is it an overreaction? This board exists to discuss, in a polite way, the makeup of the Dodgers -- you might say it's an outlet for dealing with them psychologically. The makeup of the 25-man roster is a valid point for discussion. Many (though not all) of us believe that if things progress as they seem to be, Colletti is not constructing the best 25-man roster from the players he has available.

Obviously, you don't agree. I would be interested to hear why.

2007-03-27 12:31:51
80.   underdog
75 "Or, play the kids."

This hasn't happened at all? I realize some of this happened due to injuries, but there was quite a bit of willingless to give the kids a chance last year - or do Martin, Ethier, Billingsley, Broxton, Saito (and also some time for Loney and Kemp) not count? (Er, okay, Saito's not a kid, but he was a rookie and unknown quantity.) I'm not saying this is completely wrong - there's obviously some nervousness about giving the keys to the car to the kids completely, but some balance is in order here.

2007-03-27 12:34:01
81.   underdog
Yeah, why is Larry Barnes still around? I'm assuming he's essentially filler, and will help the Vegas bench at best... I'm waiting for a Brian Traxler appearance one of these days, although at this point he probably would need a crane to remove him fron whatever donut shop he hangs out in.
2007-03-27 12:36:42
82.   madmac
72 Who is calling for Ned's head. Are they the same people who ripped and ripped on Repko as being such a bad player and then ripped the Dodgers for keeping him around. These same people who now give the guy praise. The same people who put Choi right up there with Pujols and claimed everyone else but DePo were idiots for not seeing it.
2007-03-27 12:40:43
83.   Eric Enders
82 I still say Choi is better than Pujols. Why can't any of these idiots recognize it? The man hit three home runs against the Twins for chrissakes! When did Pujols ever do anything like that? If he were only given a chance I think Choi would end up ranking right between Babe Ruth and Ted Williams on the career OPS+ list.
2007-03-27 12:41:06
84.   underdog
I wonder how much more angry and persnickety everyone will be once the real season actually starts. I look forward to the Dodgers first losing streak (bold prediction: there will be many small winning and losing streaks this season!) to see our anger management skills in action. For now, I'm gonna chill and save the vein-popping moments for when it counts.

(I just wanted to make a post using the word "persnickety.")

2007-03-27 12:41:09
85.   Humma Kavula
82 Oh, you had to bring up Choi....
2007-03-27 12:42:19
86.   underdog
83 Feh! Neither of them can hold a candle to Franklin Stubbs.
2007-03-27 12:43:59
87.   El Lay Dave
82 Baseless accusation made without evidence.

83 Eric, don't let potential rule 3 and 4 violations bait you into a potential 6 and 7 violation! ;)

2007-03-27 12:44:29
88.   madmac
79 I completely aggree regarding this blog being an outlet. Ned, you and myself might all disagree who are the best 25. I also don't agree that the best 25 = the best team. I don't think the team benefits from throwing Loney into ML games every few days as an outfielder (not right now). No doubting his bat (I love this guy btw), but he needs work defensively (OF). My preference would be to have Loney start at 1st, Nomar at 3rd, but right now that isn't what management feels is best. They happen to be privy to a lot more than me, so I'll wait and see for now. Thing is, Nomar has played 3rd, Loney has 1st down pat. This option is available on farily short notice.
2007-03-27 12:47:17
89.   Dark Horse
87-I don't think that accusation is baseless, particularly, but it's circumstantial. Exhuming evidence would be tiresome.

I do think the Dodgerthoughts T-shirts should now have "Free James Loney" emblazoned across the back of them though.

2007-03-27 12:48:01
90.   LAT
For now, I'm gonna chill and save the vein-popping moments for when it counts.

Amen! I'm gonna save my teeth gnashing for April 2 and beyond.

2007-03-27 12:48:45
91.   Daniel Zappala
Greg Brock uber alles.
2007-03-27 12:49:00
92.   El Lay Dave
88 From the top of THIS blog: "Jon Weisman's outlet for dealing psychologically with the Los Angeles Dodgers and baseball."

As commenters, we are along for the ride.

2007-03-27 12:51:56
93.   madmac
87, really I'm not and wasn't trying provoke anyone. I was simply saying relax, nothing has happend yet and if it does it's not the end of the world or season.

Not sure how my "accusations" were baseless. That's what I gathered from reading this blog. Really they weren't accusations.

2007-03-27 12:52:24
94.   JoeyP
My preference would be to have Loney start at 1st, Nomar at 3rd, but right now that isn't what management feels is best.

But why do you think management knows more than the fans do?

"We're talking about baseball here man..baseball"--in my best Allen Iverson impersonation.

Its not brain surgery.

2007-03-27 12:53:54
95.   madmac
92, yep, that's why I said I completely agree
2007-03-27 12:54:20
96.   LAT
I just confirmed I have to be in court in SF on 4/4. Thus, I will hit the 2007 opening day trifecta

4/2 Angels
4/3 Giants
4/9 Dodgers

A friend is trying to talk me into 4/6 Padres just to get the superfecta but I think three fly-overs is enough for one season.

Storming pretty good right now Downtown.

2007-03-27 12:58:41
97.   GoBears
88. That's the best way to win an argument - take both sides.

You can't take some of Colletti's decisions as given exogenously (e.g., Nomar WILL start at 1b) and then praise them for making the best decisions with those first choices as constraints. If the best team would have Loney at 1b and Nomar at 3b (or on another team, not having been re-signed) then it's management's fault if things turn out otherwise. Not that you said the following, but it would be just as disingenuous to praise Colletti for getting ABs in AAA for Kemp because "there's no place for him on the ML roster right now." Well, why's that?

And to repeat, nobody is calling for a GM change solely because Loney is being sent down. This decision is just one more in a long pattern AND it seems to directly fly in the face of Colletti's demand that kids prove that they're ready. Loney has proved it. It is Nomar who should change positions, not Loney. If Colletti has decided that Loney needs to be a ML OFer to make the team, then he's making a dumb choice. He painted himself into this corner - we shouldn't praise him for picking such a nice color.

2007-03-27 13:01:28
98.   madmac
94 it still may end that way. It just seems like they are seeking other options to utilize what they feel is the best talent. If Loney can get the defense down in the outfield and Wilson becomes a more consistent hitter (he's young enought to do so) then Loney in OF, Wison at 3rd and Nomar at 1st is an upgrade. If the Loney expirement doesn't work out and Wilson doesn't improve I think there is good chance that Nomar or Loney moves to 3rd. If I'm wrong it doesn't make Ned and idiot though. I have been known to make mistakes in the field I got a Masters degree in, so it's highly possible for me to be wrong about something I have absolutely nothing at stake in and no inside knowledge of.
2007-03-27 13:06:08
99.   Marty
I just heard it was snowing in La Crescenta. I blame Ned.
2007-03-27 13:07:03
100.   goblue1
This is getting ridiculous. Grady and Ned know much more about this team and the way the roster is going to come together (the big picture) than anyone here and are being crushed in the is blog for moves they haven't even made! Relax. No one in the world wants the Dodgers to win baseball game more than Ned Coletti and Grady Little. They simply will not allow better players to waste time in AAA all year if moving them up will cause the team to be better. Now, will Loney begin the year in AAA? WHO CARES. If he is the best option for the Dodgers at First, LF, RF, etc…. then he will get ABs.
Maybe not April 1 ABs, but the roster will work its self out, and probably pretty quickly. I am a little disappointed in Loney, who seems like a very good guy for mouthing off a little. I hope some of those quotes are out of context. Nice kid, looks like a great prospect, but he isn't bigger than the organization. He will get his chance. No question. This is going to be a very good year. Can we at least get out of Spring Training without calling for management heads?

I almost miss the Pierre bashing (almost).

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-03-27 13:08:22
101.   El Lay Dave
93 I was - perhaps myopically - focused on this part, "Are they the same people who ripped and ripped on Repko as being such a bad player and then ripped the Dodgers for keeping him around. These same people who now give the guy praise." In my opinion, DT poster are not generally self-contridictory. Plus the last sentence struck me as over-the-top.

Maybe I'm just reading too much into it.

2007-03-27 13:09:00
102.   madmac
GoBears, you are obviously a very passionate person and have strong feelings regarding Ned. My feeling is that many were looking for reasons to hate Ned they day he was hired. Everything he does that doesn't turn out will cary much more weight than the good things he has done. No GM has a perfect track record.
2007-03-27 13:11:50
103.   Marty
100 Sorry, Ned and Grady may know how the roster is going to come together, but it doesn't mean they know the BEST way. This is why other people with opinions voice them on this board. You are using the (in my opinion) tired argument that they are in the positions of responsibility, so defacto, they MUST know better. Doesn't always work that way. See Bowden, Jim.
2007-03-27 13:14:21
104.   El Lay Dave
On the original topic, coincidentally, "old_fogey_la" recounted the Mike Ramsey story on 3/25 at ItD as a counter to people getting overly excited about Wilson Valdez.
http://tinyurl.com/yocg69
(7th post from the bottom)
2007-03-27 13:16:38
105.   madmac
101 I just remember reading so many posts here when Repko first made the team a couple years ago and there was so many Repko sucks jokes all year long. What a terrible player he was. Then last year starts and Repko had really improved his game. I even posted that people should start giving him some props esp after being so hard on him before. There was a generally positive response. The point isn't that people aren't aloud to change their opinion. The point is sometimes we are wrong.
2007-03-27 13:18:45
106.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
I don't necessarily think so. Look at it this way. You work for a Fortune 500 company. In a board meeting, there are several proposals regarding the company's future direction. You put a lot of time and effort into a proposal, which turns out to be head and shoulders above the rest, far and away the best proposal presented. That proposal is flatly rejected for reasons that make sense to nobody.

But this is speculating that the analogy actually applies in this case. Loney not making the time out of ST is different from Loney being:

1) Traded for another Baez

2) Loney riding the pine in AAA even after Nomar gets hurt

or some other comparable situation.

WWSH

2007-03-27 13:20:20
107.   madmac
103 Ahh, but isn't the real point that you or I don't exactly know the BEST way either. BTW, Jim Bowden is an idiot IMO.
2007-03-27 13:21:40
108.   goblue1
103

Maybe so. But I just don't see peeing my pants based on LA Times speculation of what may happen in week 1 of a 6 month season. Or a bunch of gripes about trades people don't like that have yet to prove actually wrong, based on real baseball results. There have been trades that haven't helped, sure- but we haven't traded away any jems. I find it useful to be able to back up calls for removing people in the organization. Not just…. well… because you don't like them.

2007-03-27 13:21:41
109.   Jon Weisman
82 - "The same people who put Choi right up there with Pujols and claimed everyone else but DePo were idiots for not seeing it. "

This is the line that struck me as most inflammatory. No one compared Choi to Pujols - not even close. So if you are going to take people to task for overreacting, I'd just suggest you be more prudent with your own choices.

2007-03-27 13:26:33
110.   El Lay Dave
105 Point taken.

Here or elsewhere I stated that while we may have deeply considered, researched opinions, most of us are amateurs; we are not staking our job, career, or professional reputation on those opinions.

That said, nothing has changed my opinion that, even with the Drew opt-out, the LuGo signing makes no sense. If he were at least right-handed, Loney - poor outfielder or not - would at least have platoon opportunties. And if Loney wasn't ready, fictional RH LF would still play full-time.

2007-03-27 13:26:58
111.   Marty
107 No, that's not the point at all. Otherwise, every post would start "I'm no GM, but I think..."

The point is most everybody has an opinion of how this team should be made up and can freely post it here. Differing opinions are welcome and encouraged. Arguments break out (See JoeyP vs. Canuck Dodger or Nate Purcell), but that's ok too.

This site is much more than about just being a fan, or supporting the team right or wrong.

2007-03-27 13:27:42
112.   Eric Enders
105 We were right about Repko, though. He does suck. (Although he has his uses as a 25th man.)
2007-03-27 13:28:40
113.   Vaudeville Villain
80-

Underdog- Yes, we played the youngsters last year, but that was because the coaches were forced to by injuries, and notice, as soon as there was an available mediocre vet to play, the mediocre veteran replaced the young player.

100-

Arguing that Ned and Grady "know more about this team than anyone else so are above criticism" is a totally false premise-conclusion. I shouldn't have to explain why.

P.S. I disagree with Ned Colletti, thus, I have a Hee-Seop Choi idol that I routinely worship in the hopes that the Dodgers will lose. I also don't actually watch the games, but check gameday occasionally.

2007-03-27 13:31:38
114.   worz
Has this been posted here yet?

An update from Tony Jackson:

"The Dodgers optioned lefty reliever Tim Hamulack to Triple-A Las Vegas and reassigned pitcher Joe Mays and catchers Sandy Martinez and Kelly Stinnett."

2007-03-27 13:37:38
115.   Dark Horse
113-Is that true? (No, not about the Choi idol.) Where precisely did the mediocre vet replace the young player? Anderson--who played very well--replaced Ethier when he was struggling. Where else though? Kemp was replaced, after struggling more than Ethier. Garciaparra replaced Loney, but Garciaparra wasn't "mediocre" exactly. Where else?
2007-03-27 13:41:22
116.   Daniel Zappala
Snow in Southern California. Pfft. We're getting lightning, thunder, wind, hail, rain, and snow, all in the past 15 minutes here in Utah. 70 degrees yesterday, possibly 6 inches of snow tonight.
2007-03-27 13:44:37
117.   El Lay Dave
Jon Heyman at SI.com, posted yesterday.
A lot of people think Loney's ready to play first base full time somewhere.
The word "somewhere" scares me.

One scout said he "loves" Dodgers outfield prospect Matt Kemp, despite the question of whether he can hit the curve. "He can run, he can throw and he can play the heck out of right field," says the scout, who points out that a lot of people questioned whether Jermaine Dye could hit the curveball, just like Kemp.
Dye didn't blossom until age 25. Hopefully Kemp is more like Dye's peaks and less like his valleys.

2007-03-27 13:46:02
118.   Eric Enders
Maybe he should wear a shinguard when he bats, then.
2007-03-27 13:46:44
119.   Marty
Blue Tahoe is forging Jon's name again over at ItD.
2007-03-27 13:50:14
120.   goblue1
113

There is a big difference between voicing opinions/criticizing and calling for firings or repeated bashing of our GM- and I shouldn't have to explain why.

Its frustrating to see all this bad juju posted by our own fans, based on trades that haven't hurt the team in reality or roster moves that haven't even happened yet. That's a miserable way to go through a season. I just don't get it.

2007-03-27 13:53:12
121.   Jacob L
I haven't noticed the wandering eye of DT fall on Saenz, yet. I think we all like Olmedo, but (a) he's got the spot that should be Loney's and (b) he has actual value in the market.

So far, Colletti has traded either prospects that fall below the first tier, or spare parts. His approach to top prospects has been "I don't want to trade them, but I'm not dying to play them, either." I think its that kind of purgatory that's bugging me. If you don't want to hand a prospect a starting job, I can live with that, but can't you open up some sort of useful role for them, the side benefit being you can move a guy like Saenz who actually could bring something in return.

How you gonna keep them on the farm once they've seen Karl Hungus?

2007-03-27 13:53:19
122.   Marty
120 Yes, I think you should explain please. Bashing a GM and thinking he should be fired falls under category of "voicing opinion/criticizing" in my view.

This is like saying we shouldn't criticize the President.

2007-03-27 13:56:34
123.   JoeyP
Where precisely did the mediocre vet replace the young player?

Bill Mueller over Willy Aybar
Brett Tomko over Chad Billingsley
Marlon Anderson over Andre Ethier
Kenny Lofton??? over Matt Kemp (cant remember who replaced Kemp when he wentback down last year)
Julio Lugo over Aybar (at the trade deadline)
Larry Bigbie over Loney (apparently)
Toby Hall over Navarro

There's strong evidence that the organization favors the mediocre veteran over the rooks.

2007-03-27 13:58:12
124.   Bob Timmermann
Hendrickson traded!

Unfortunately, it was the Brewers sending Ben Hendrickson to Kansas City.

2007-03-27 13:58:54
125.   Marty
It's a fire sale in Milwaukee!
2007-03-27 14:02:35
126.   goblue1
Im just old fashion I guess. I like statements that can be backed up with real, meaningful data presented in a thoughtful way.
Otherwise we are just wandering aimlessly, like a child... in and out of conversations.
2007-03-27 14:05:09
127.   Hythloday
126 - That's only a little inflammatory.
2007-03-27 14:05:25
128.   Dark Horse
123-I'd put it just a little differently. "There's strong evidence the organization esteems the veteran more than they should, and to our likely detriment." Mueller actually played pretty well for the...three weeks that he lasted. At least as well as Aybar would have. Billingsley as I recall replaced Tomko--or I guess Sele--rather than vice versa. Anderson, well he outplayed Ethier down the stretch and while there's no great excuse for privileging Lofton over anybody, Kemp was sucking worse than your average vet. Betamit replaced Aybar, Wilson being all of...how old? I think we have a problem now that we didn't before--Loney is unequivocally ready and Kemp will be shortly. It pains my heart to think of Gonzales and Bigbie stealing their at-bats, but that just hasn't happened yet. It might. There are worrisome indications that it could. But I somehow don't think it will.
2007-03-27 14:08:20
129.   blue22
121 - Saenz doesn't have Loney's spot. Saenz is the biggest bat off the bench - sorta the Dave Hansen/Lenny Harris type. He has no defensive value and only gets into the game as a late-game pinch-hitter.

Loney is (err...would be) the utility player (non-middle infield variety).

Frankly I'm happy that Saenz made it through the re-organizations. He's productive and a very easy guy to root for, indirectly due to his mitigated playing time.

2007-03-27 14:09:37
130.   Jon Weisman
Andy L. update above, in this post.
2007-03-27 14:11:38
131.   trainwreck
You got me good Bob. You got me good.
2007-03-27 14:12:42
132.   trainwreck
Guzman's quote is still by far the best. We should have kept him just for that.
2007-03-27 14:13:32
133.   Vaudeville Villain
115-

JoeyP elaborated pretty well on what I'm talking about. I think he's also forgetting, (or repressing) all the playing time that Izturis received prior to his being traded. You may argue that he was being showcased, but nevertheless, he was being played ahead of better players.

120-

I don't understand why it's such an anathema that there are people disagreeing that Ned Colletti is above reproach.

2007-03-27 14:14:22
134.   ssjames
120

The reason that I think that Colleti should be fired is that he simply overvalues experience as though it was a good in and of itself. Loney is just the perfect example of that. I had loved the idea of signing short term players until the prospect beat the door down. This is a great theory, but it hasn't been applied well at all.

Loney just happens to be the perfect example of this. There is no legitimate reasoning on the hitting side for him to go back to AAA. He has proven he is too good for AAA, but Colleti resigned Nomar, and essentially blocked Loney for two more years. Why?

This is a team with talent loaded in the farm and looking to make a huge splash in the 08-10 seasons, and instead of getting ready for that by playing some of the kids now we are instead blocking them with players who won't be there then.

I had supported Ned through the questionable signings and trades of Hendrickson, Tomko, Lugo, LuGo, Pierre, all with the understanding that this is a short term fix until the future is here. Loney is here should be starting somewhere on the field and is going back to AAA. That is just not following the plan, and that is why with all the evidence in to date, I now come to the conclusion that I don't think that Ned is the best person to be running this team, and would prefer someone else.

It is not the small fact that Loney won't be on the opening day roster, I could live with that that is bothering me. It is the fact that this is the final piece of evidence I need to see to show that Colleti isn't following any sort of master plan and would rather avoid critism than build a winning team, at the cost of not playing our prospects when he should.

2007-03-27 14:16:15
135.   madmac
109 yes, the Choi/Pujols comparison was an exageration, not one that I've seen made, but easily the impression one could have gotten if they read this blog. Not now, but back when. Exagerations are thrown around left and right regarding players. See Juan Pierre. While I don't care for the length of the contract, he is not nearly as bad a player as he is made out to be frequently here. I don't recall taking anyone to task. There is a lot of excitement and anger over something that hasn't happend and I was just trying to be a voice of reason which was apparently unreasonable.
2007-03-27 14:22:45
136.   bhsportsguy
123 Anderson over Ethier, apparently Ethier was hurt according to what he has said this Spring and he did not tell anyone, probably was one reason why he slumped. And certainly, Anderson's hot September did not move him into a starter's role this year.

Matt Kemp, since the league adjusted, he has not made his adjustments, even this Spring against multiple levels of pitching, he has not shown the same ability that he has shown in AA/AAA. Again, he was a player with a lot of great tools but he has always been very young compared to the level of competition he has faced. He just turned 22. There are not many 22 year old outfielders in MLB and certainly few players in recent history that come into the league and are successful at that age. Is he Pujols or Griffey, Jr. or A-Rod.

Actually it is Betemit over Aybar, though Lugo played there too.

I have addressed the vets over young players for bench positions before, I think it is a better strategy.

I am not saying that there isn't a clear pattern of how Ned likes his roster set up but sometimes there are other explanations other than that reason for how the 25 man roster is organized.

2007-03-27 14:23:23
137.   Vaudeville Villain
135-

I don't see how it's this blog's fault that people misread it as a haven for Choi lovin'.

I think a lot of people have come into this discussion with preconceived notions about how people who post on this blog are some uniform hive-mind of insect-alien-people. Which would, admittedly, be pretty cool.

2007-03-27 14:23:33
138.   regfairfield
For what it's worth, I still hate Jason Repko.
2007-03-27 14:24:39
139.   D4P
Speaking of Choi, I see that Hee was "Reassigned to Minor League camp" the other day.

What does that mean?

2007-03-27 14:26:00
140.   Bob Timmermann
139
It means AAA for Choi.
2007-03-27 14:27:34
141.   D4P
140
But certain other players were "optioned to AAA Durham."

What's the difference...?

2007-03-27 14:28:13
142.   regfairfield
141 They were on the 40 man.
2007-03-27 14:31:29
143.   D4P
Well, I'm selfishly excited that Hee will be a Durham Bull for at least part of the season. I see that the Bulls run a promotion on Saturday nights during the season after the games where you can "get autographs with your favorite Durham Bulls."

Maybe I'll try to get my picture taken with the Big Korean.

2007-03-27 14:32:13
144.   Nagman
My boss is at today's Padre-Texas game and he sent me a text message telling me that old friend Kenny Lofton terribly misplayed a fly ball.
2007-03-27 14:34:02
145.   JoeyP
See Juan Pierre. While I don't care for the length of the contract, he is not nearly as bad a player as he is made out to be frequently here.

At a cost of 9 mils dollars, what exactly does Juan Pierre do that will help the Dodgers win games?

He's one of the worst offensive players in the game. Doesnt get on base a lot and has no power.

Can he steal bases and put the ball into play? Sure, but doing that alone doesnt create runs.

Pierre could help a team by being a 4th/5th OF'er. A guy that could pinch run, or situational hit where you just need a guy to make contact...Maybe as a defensive replacement late in the game to cover CF in a big ball park.

But starting 162 games? At a cost of 9mils per...His presence hurts the Dodgers.

I'd take Kemp's growing pains in CF--at least that gives me hope for the future.

Seeing Pierre there only gives me dread.

2007-03-27 14:39:06
146.   twerp
140 "It means AAA for Choi."

But won't it take more than just a battery to jump-start his career?

Sorry (sorta)...

2007-03-27 14:41:24
147.   LAT
The 2005 (or was it 2004) Quote of the Year had to be Jason Phillips comments about not being able to live on $350K and flipping burgers at BK.
2007-03-27 14:41:29
148.   Dark Horse
145-"He is one of the worst offensive players in the game." Well, no. It's splitting hairs maybe--he is not worth anything like what we have committed to him appears to me to be the more salient point--but that's a violation of whichever rule it is that bars hyperbole maybe. I'd prefer to see Kemp too. But it could be argued that Kemp, when he struggled last year (and for the earlier portions of this spring) was worse than Pierre will ever be. I don't particularly want to see JP clogging our outfield for the whole of this season, let alone 5 whole years, but really now. There are worse. And I say so in full consciousness that "there are worse" encompasses a real spectrum of terrible, not suggesting mediocre is good enough.
2007-03-27 14:48:23
149.   D4P
Interesting line for Abreu thus far. And I thought Pierre's IsoD was bad...

.370/.362/.630

2007-03-27 14:52:04
150.   blue22
148 - Considering the fact that he's somehow entitled to 700 plate appearances a year, he can be viewed as the most damaging (to your own club) offensive player in the league.

Sure, Neifi Perez is worse, but he's a fringe player that only infrequently is still getting regular playing time.

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-03-27 14:54:52
151.   Humma Kavula
148 I mean this question seriously, not in a snarky way:

Among players who will reach 500+ AB, is there any player in MLB worse than Pierre?

The thinking behind my question is: the things he does will keep him in the lineup, whereas another player with similar OBP/SLG numbers might be more likely to lose his job.

2007-03-27 14:55:30
152.   Humma Kavula
48 seconds. I should have refreshed...
2007-03-27 14:57:28
153.   regfairfield
151 Brad Ausmus, Darin Erstad, Scott Podsednik.
2007-03-27 14:58:46
154.   Sushirabbit
blah, blah, blah, I think, blah, blah. Blah!

{ the above post has been edited to remove profanity, the appearance of personal attacks, baiting, the inevitable snide political barb, hyperbole, sarcasm, and chiefly repetition }

2007-03-27 14:59:52
155.   still bevens
153 Let us not overlook Adam Everett.
2007-03-27 15:00:47
156.   blue22
153 - Not exactly a ringing endorsement of Monsieur Pierre to be in the same breath as those guys...

He's not the worst...fifth worst, tops.

2007-03-27 15:01:23
157.   jasonungar05
So to be clear, no one here is happy that we have Nomar at first base for 2007.

If true, thats fair. Just wondering.

2007-03-27 15:01:46
158.   regfairfield
155 Adam Everett has the best glove in baseball, he's nowhere near that group.
2007-03-27 15:02:26
159.   Jon Weisman
135 - "There is a lot of excitement and anger over something that hasn't happend and I was just trying to be a voice of reason which was apparently unreasonable."

Once again, someone confuses confusing disagreement with lack of tolerance for their point of view. I actually agree that there is overreaction on this site. I pointed out one line from your post that I thought detracted from your case, and your reaction is to decide that being a voice of reason is unreasonable.

That's not an overreaction?

Meanwhile, we get this: "yes, the Choi/Pujols comparison was an exageration, not one that I've seen made, but easily the impression one could have gotten if they read this blog."

So basically, you argue that while no one made the comparison, people could have easily gotten that impression.

That's bothersome.

Many people here liked Choi. I liked Choi. No one seriously thought he was the second coming. Some people thought he was a good player for his price. Some people didn't think he got a fair chance. Some people joked about worshipping him - though the joke couldn't have been more clear. How that got exaggerated into giving the impression that some people here thought he was an MVP is frankly mystifying.

So you're touching on a sore point, whether you realize it or not. People used an false argument to try to tear down this blog, and you're perpetuating it.

2007-03-27 15:02:28
160.   blue22
155 - At least he has the benefit of being the gold standard defensively at the most important position on the field. Even then, there are many that believe he doesn't hit enough.
2007-03-27 15:04:37
161.   D4P
People thought Choi was better than Ja(y)son Phillips.
2007-03-27 15:06:04
162.   JoeyP
Any salary correlation between Ausmus, Pierre, Erstad, and Podsednik?
2007-03-27 15:07:02
163.   Bumsrap
If I were Loney and asked if I were disappointed about getting sent down I think my answer would be no. If asked if I had any emotions about getting sent down I would say yes, I am really, really pissed off.

Regarding direct lines to White. I have his personal cell phone number but I have only called twice--to get tickets. If it were Colletti's cell phone number I would be posting it everywhere. I am not about to call White and offer my two cents just to have him ask if I wanted change.

2007-03-27 15:07:54
164.   Sushirabbit
161 but Phillips was more fun to watch running.
2007-03-27 15:08:28
165.   Humma Kavula
153 Fair enough, but as blue22 points out, that's still a very short list.
2007-03-27 15:13:10
166.   blue22
165 - But Pierre makes it up in volume. In a bad way.

And those other guys have the decency to get hurt once in awhile too.

2007-03-27 15:14:51
167.   Humma Kavula
164 It used to disgust me when Phillips would hit lazy fly balls to left field, then put both his hands on his head, like he couldn't believe that the outfielder had made such an incredible (read: routine) play.

But as the man said, I used to be disgusted -- but now, I try to be amused.

2007-03-27 15:16:16
168.   Jon Weisman
Elvis Costello is a good button for this scene. Let's move on from Choi/Phillips, etc.
2007-03-27 15:17:08
169.   regfairfield
How about Luis Gonzalez? Jeff Francouer if he repeats 2006.

This is actually harder than I thought it would be.

2007-03-27 15:19:33
170.   Jon Weisman
And madmac, I meant nothing personal, I hope you know. I've been known to overreact as well.
2007-03-27 15:19:56
171.   underdog
I don't if this helps any but for those of you who enjoy arguing about this sort of thing (I don't really), here's one way to compare Pierre vs. other hitters - just from last year, based on qualifiers (not quite 500 ab's but close). As you can see, he doesn't rank all that high in OBP, but he ranks ahead of a lot of other well-known hitters, too.
http://tinyurl.com/ye3zwk

In short, everyone's sort of right, and everyone's sort of wrong! Black! White! Tomato! Tomah-to! Whee!
2007-03-27 15:22:06
172.   madmac
159 my apologies. I really like this blog. I enjoy your writing. Sorry if I came accross as attacking. Never was my intent. Everyone have a great day.
2007-03-27 15:23:14
173.   underdog
Oh, and by OPS:
http://tinyurl.com/2xks99

He ranks worse there, not surprisingly, though still some good - or well-regarded -hitters behind him. I would've thought Taveras would be "better" than he is. Isn't he the Rockies' new CF-er?

2007-03-27 15:24:03
174.   D4P
Of the 121 players with 500 or more ABs last season, Juan Pierre

1. ranked 96th in OBP
2. ranked 106th in SLG

2007-03-27 15:24:08
175.   underdog
172 I think you actually made some fair points in there madmac, hope you realize that, too. But do I have to have a great day? My day's already kind of poopy. ;-)
2007-03-27 15:24:59
176.   regfairfield
173 He is, but his defense is great, so he didn't make the list.

Pierre does a lot of things poorly.

2007-03-27 15:29:56
177.   JoeyP
174--Is their any player with a higher number (96+106)= 202?
2007-03-27 15:35:38
178.   JoeyP
Appears--Podsednik, Peralta, Jack Wilson, Betancourt, Ronny Cedeno, Pedro Feliz, Jose Castillo were collectively worse than Pierre last yar. 4 of those guys are SS's.

So like 8 players in the majors were worse than Pierre last year...I dont know whether to laugh or cry.

And the guy played at Wrigley Field..(a hitters park still right?)

2007-03-27 15:39:23
179.   D4P
177

It looks like Cedeno is a definite "Yes." Not sure about the others.

Players with 500 ABs and a lower OPS than Pierre last year:

Loretta
Figgins
Feliz
Peralta
Betancourt
Kendall
Cedeno
Eckstein

2007-03-27 15:41:11
180.   D4P
Cedeno and his .245/.271/.339/.610 line (with 17 walks and 534 ABs) must have been Dusty's dream. No base-clogging there.
2007-03-27 15:41:49
181.   thinkingblue
178.

But he has a great attitude, and tosses balls down the line before games to see how they'll roll!

And don't forget; 200 HITS! .300AVERAGE!

(sarcasm ends now)

2007-03-27 15:41:55
182.   Bumsrap
In regards to all the Jim Rome like ranting on Pierre....Shouldn't that have ended at 1:00 PM?
2007-03-27 15:42:57
183.   Bob Timmermann
But as the man said, I used to be disgusted -- but now, I try to be amused.

And you know, the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim do wear red shoes.

2007-03-27 15:43:26
184.   Humma Kavula
178 Laugh. Definitely.
2007-03-27 15:44:12
185.   Bumsrap
Except for the Angel that wants to draw attention to himself by wearing black shoes.
2007-03-27 15:44:37
186.   underdog
Again this is based on around 500 abs or so, which eliminates some players who are clearly worse than Juan Pierre.

176 I was referring not to anyone's list here, but to the stats list from ESPN I linked to.

Though I find continuing discussions about Juan Pierre kind of frustrating and pointless, but that could just be me, my own take, for the official record: 5 years, way too long, too much money, am fine having him there this year, have nothing against him personally, think he'll do some things to help the Dodgers offense this year, would rather him not be there for the length of the contract, hope to see Kemp out there (or taking over for LuGo) soon, and would like to move on now to other important topics... Like, why is Rich Donnelly still the third base coach, or Can Betemit hit enough to keep us from worrying about LaaaaRoche? Stuff like that.

2007-03-27 15:45:27
187.   Humma Kavula
183 I heard that Elvis tried to write that in his first draft of the lyrics, but couldn't make the meter work, so he shortened it to "the Angels."
2007-03-27 15:46:01
188.   D4P
I guess most players with 500 ABs or more get on base an awful, awful, awful, lot.

A falafel lot.

2007-03-27 15:48:43
189.   Greg Brock
Looks like I missed a fun conversation...
2007-03-27 15:49:19
190.   Daniel Zappala
157 I'm OK with Nomar at first for 2007, provided that Loney gets just as many ABs, playing a combo of first and OF.

On the other hand, since Loney's defense isn't good enough for the outfield yet (apparently), I'd prefer that he primarily play 1B. Nomar can play 3B and LF, depending on whether Little wants to sit Betemit or Gonzalez on a given day. I'd have more confidence in Nomar roaming LF than Loney.

2007-03-27 15:51:08
191.   Humma Kavula
186 I half-agree, half-disagree.

I would say that I regret asking the question that I asked in 151, because it's been played to death here and likely doesn't need any more discussion on DT. In that sense, I'm sorry that I brought it up.

On the other hand, that doesn't mean that we need to accept, blindly, the suckiness forced upon us. Keeping the discussion going has a place -- getting the word out that he's the eighth- (or whatever) worst regular major leaguer is a thought that needs to be disseminated.

So:

juanpierreoutwatch.blogspot.com

...and I promise, I'll leave it there.

2007-03-27 15:51:24
192.   underdog
189 It's okay Greg, you probably heard it here on a previous occasion. It had an "{r}" in the TV Guide listing.

I want to rant about Rich Donnelly instead. 3rd base coaches don't get ranted about nearly often enough.

2007-03-27 15:51:36
193.   blue22
The 500 AB's threshold does a tremendous disservice to the amount of destruction Pierre has on a team. Only 4 players had 750+ plate appearances last year:

Jimmy Rollins, 45.2 VORP / .273 eqa
Ichiro, 46.4 / .282
Grady Sizemore, 69.1 / .301
Juan Pierre, 18.0 / .249

Pierre is a force of nature. In a bad way.

2007-03-27 15:52:28
194.   underdog
191 I'm afraid to look... is that a real URL? Wow. I'll be commenting there next year. ;-)
2007-03-27 15:52:31
195.   Jon Weisman
Matt Kemp on the Clark trade, one day later (MLB.com)

"After I thought about it, I realized they have to do what they have to do to win," said Kemp. "Besides, sitting isn't my game. I don't do well off the bench. I'll go down and work on what I have to work on. I hope I can be the right-handed power bat they've been talking about."

This is from Gurnick's notes column. He holds out the possibility that Abreu is in fact ahead of Valdez as Furcal's understudy. Also a Marlon Anderson note.

2007-03-27 15:53:24
196.   Humma Kavula
192 Two outs at home! On the same play! In a playoff game! Aaaaaauuuuugggghhhh!!!
2007-03-27 15:54:17
197.   Humma Kavula
194 It is real. I will do my best to keep it up to date.
2007-03-27 15:54:39
198.   natepurcell
195

good attitude by kemp. hopefully management gives him some positive reinforcement.

2007-03-27 15:57:03
199.   blue22
197 - If I'm not mistaken, 580 outs (the record and "goal") in his customary 750 PA's would yield a .253 OBP.
2007-03-27 15:57:25
200.   underdog
I'm this close to starting "richdonnellyoutathird.blogspot.com"

195 Ah, nice, Matt - except no fast food reference takes it down a notch.

Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2007-03-27 15:58:10
201.   Humma Kavula
199 I have the record as 560 outs... Do I have it wrong?
2007-03-27 15:59:14
202.   blue22
199 - Oops, 560. The math still holds though. Is that really what Omar Moreno did?
2007-03-27 16:00:18
203.   Humma Kavula
202

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/Outs_season.shtml

2007-03-27 16:02:06
204.   Eric Enders
Some interesting Dodger-related minutiae in Paul Lukas' latest "Uni Watch" column:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=lukas/070327

Uni Watch isn't usually in the habit of making preseason predictions, but let's just come out and say it: Jose Cruz Jr. for MVP.
...

One other thing about the new caps: Since they're made of synthetic fibers, they don't shrink. That could cause problems for Eric Gagné, who prefers a cap that's slightly too big and then lets it shrink to create a snug fit around his glasses (for full details, check out the "Dirty Laundry" section of this page). That's why his cap has traditionally been all sweat-stained -- once he's got one that's shrunk just right, he doesn't want the hassle of breaking in a new one. No surprise, then, that during spring training he's been wearing one of the old wool caps (note the telltale gray underbrim) instead of the newfangled polyester batting practice caps. Uni Watch is curious to see what he does once the regular season starts -- assuming he doesn't, you know, blow out his arm this weekend.
...

• Lots of small changes for the Dodgers: Player names, which had been missing from jerseys the past two seasons, have been restored (although they could use a refresher course on how to avoid loose threads); the blue piping and white outlining that used to be on the road jersey have been eliminated; the white outlining on the road jersey's uniform numbers is gone, too; the "Dodgers" patch on the road jersey's left sleeve is now an "LA" patch; and the gray outlining on the home jersey's "LA" patch has been eliminated.

2007-03-27 16:02:23
205.   blue22
203 - Must be more to it than just (ABs - hits) then. BP says he had a .306 OBP in 1980.

Add in CS's, sacrifices, even 2 for GIDP's?

2007-03-27 16:03:44
206.   Humma Kavula
205 You're using AB instead of PA. Walks don't figure into AB.

Even Juan will walk 40 times or so.

2007-03-27 16:07:25
207.   blue22
206 - Eh, I'm just not concentrating on trivial baseball calculations close enough. Stupid work getting in the way of my Juan Pierre bashing!
2007-03-27 16:11:27
208.   JoeyP
does a tremendous disservice to the amount of destruction Pierre has on a team.

I like the way you put that--"amount of destruction"...

Can we nickname Pierre=WMD?

Its short, sweet, and to the point.

2007-03-27 16:12:23
209.   LAT
Worrying about Pierre or Loney is a waste of time compared to how scary this is:

From Gurnick: Former Dodgers general manager Kevin Malone spoke at length with Little during batting practice.

2007-03-27 16:13:40
210.   King of the Hobos
Let's hope today's offenses are not signs of things to come:

Dodgers- 0 runs
Giants- 9 runs
Rockies- 9 runs
Diamondbacks- 13 runs
Padres- 24 runs (in one game!)

2007-03-27 16:15:49
211.   goblue1
"...Paddy (St. Louis, MO): Do you agree with Loney being sent to Las Vegas?

rob neyer: No no no no no. Dodgers had a bad winter, and will finish third in '07...."
-ESPN

Neyer calling 3rd place, behind SD and AZ.

2007-03-27 16:16:23
212.   underdog
209 Ack! That's terrifying, he's like a gargoyle circling the castle he was banished from.
2007-03-27 16:18:46
213.   Humma Kavula
209 212

It's the word "with" that scares me.

Had it been "at," not so bad. I can picture Grady Little smiling and nodding and edging toward the door.

2007-03-27 16:29:11
214.   trainwreck
Well ESPN's newest analyst, Eric Young, thinks the Dodgers are the best in the NL because we have Furcal and Pierre creating havoc.
2007-03-27 16:30:42
215.   madmac
175 thanks, and I do. I just didn't think continuing the discussion was usefull. My comments had the opposite effect I intended them to have. It does amaze me though how the mere mention of certain names can stir up such emotion. I know better now.
2007-03-27 16:31:14
216.   underdog
Ouch.
http://tinyurl.com/24qlkr

I didn't realize the Dodgers were interested in this guy, too.

2007-03-27 16:50:39
217.   JoeyP
It appears that Jayson Werth has won the Phillies LF job.

.256/.370/.330--Its too bad he tore up his wrist bc he had a really bright future. The wrist has just sapped his power, although he has hit 1 HR this spring.

2007-03-27 16:54:01
218.   King of the Hobos
217 He beat out Pat Burrell? I could understand him playing over Victorino or Roward, but Burrell? Or can Burrell play RF now?
2007-03-27 16:55:50
219.   underdog
I did like this quote from Grady in that Ken Gurnick notes article:
-Asked why the club would be scheduled to play games on opposite coasts on the same day, Little said: "I'm not sure. It probably has something to do with the U.S. dollar."
--
218 Don't a lot of scouts consider Burrell well past his best years? It's why the Phils were so desperate to dump him and his salary in the off season. I don't know if it is that much of a surprise, but maybe a minor one. I do wish we still had Werth, too.
2007-03-27 16:59:18
220.   Greg Brock
Burrell OPS'd .890 last year, top 25 in the National League (21st, to be exact).
2007-03-27 17:01:39
221.   King of the Hobos
219 Burrell hit .257/.365/.455 in 2004, .281/.389/.504 in 2005, and .258/.388/.502 in 2006. Bad defense and a bloated contract, but hardly well past his best years, especially as he's only 30 (3 years older than Werth, with a much better track record).
2007-03-27 17:02:25
222.   Greg Brock
He also had a not-too-shabby .301 EqA
2007-03-27 17:03:49
223.   Greg Brock
Burrell's defense wasn't that bad last year. -2 FRAA is below average, but not terrible. Rate2 was 99.

Sometimes being tagged as a bad fielder sticks with you forever, even if you improve.

2007-03-27 17:09:06
224.   El Lay Dave
On the human-interest side: Bobby Murcer holding his ground against cancer.
http://tinyurl.com/2jsc52
2007-03-27 17:09:38
225.   Humma Kavula
Whoa... is Pat Burrell really going to be a bench player this year?

Nothing like schadenfreude to put today's discussion into perspective!

2007-03-27 17:10:36
226.   regfairfield
Can we get a link to this? Not even the Phillies are this incompetent.
2007-03-27 17:13:21
227.   Humma Kavula
226 No one ever went broke underestimating the incompetency of the Philadelphia Phillies.
2007-03-27 17:14:07
228.   GoBears
215. I'm glad to know that, like everyone else around here, you mean well and enjoy the conversation. But you've missed the point. It is not the case that people are responding emotionally to your reasoned arguments. It is that people are responding reasonably (in both senses of the term) to your, shall we say, unconventional summary of the discussion itself.

The really odd thing about this is that I don't think any of us (including you) disagree on the main point - whether Loney should go to Vegas - just about how this latest decision affects our assessment of the job Colletti is doing as GM.

For me, the Loney decision is a bad one, partly informed by several previous bad ones, but it doesn't really affect my assessment of Colletti, because I'd already decided that he's terrible at player evaluation, and way too wedded to the idea that such things as leadership and veteran savvy and professionalism matter in ways that somehow don't come out in on-the-field production. For others, this is the last straw - they had given Colletti the benefit of the doubt until now, but this tears it. For still others (including you, I gather) this decision is either sui generis and, on its own, not egregious enough to deserve consequences, or else, even if wrong, is not enough to tip the overall assessment of Colletti into the negative.

That's fine, we can disagree about that. But please don't patronize by chalking up objections to "emotion."

It's ironic, actually, since the usual knock against devotees of the newer baseball metrics is that they're too unemotional. Just ask Plaschke.

2007-03-27 17:14:56
229.   regfairfield
Don't get me wrong, I love Werth, but sitting a .900 OPS guy that you're paying 13 million for someone that hadn't swung a bat for a year and a half must rank up there in the all time bad decisions list.
2007-03-27 17:15:35
230.   CanuckDodger
I think we are fortunate that Kemp and LAr oCHe (maybe this will be the next variation to strike Andy's fancy?) didn't have very impressive spring trainings, as they can't feel slighted in being sent to Triple A, can't make a big kerfuffle over it. And PECOTA be damned, I shared the Dodgers' belief that both players need more Triple A time long before they failed to wow anybody in spring training. But the Loney situation, now that is real problem. But first, since many people are -- perhaps rhetorically, perhaps not -- asking what the Dodgers could possibly be thinking when it comes to Loney, going back to re-signing Nomar even, I'll look at the situation as Colletti likely has.

First, I think it all goes back to J.D. Drew opting out. It has been published somewhere that the off-season plan initially was to keep Drew in right field, move Ethier to center, and sign a power hitter for left (Soriano seems to have been the big target). Though it was not spelled out in any publication, I think another part of the plan -- at this time -- was to let Nomar go and put Loney at first base and have him hit in the bottom of the line-up, behind Drew, Soriano, Kent and probably Ethier and Martin as well. But when Drew opted out, suddenly one of our only two guys who hit 20 homers last year was gone. I believe that made Ned think that losing the lone OTHER 20 HR hitter as well was simply not something we could afford, especially with none of even Loney's most optimistic supporters being confident that Loney could match 20 homers in a season at this stage of his development.

So once Nomar was re-signed, it was looking like a sealed deal that Loney would at least be a bench player with the big club. But that, I am sure, depended on Loney at least being somewhat competent in the outfield, otherwise with Saenz already in the fold the Dodgers' 25-man roster would be carrying two back-up first baseman, and what MLB club does that? Loney has been, I regret saying, a clown act in the outfield in spring training, so that shot down the "versatile bench player" scenario. That made the options for Loney either going back to Triple A, or being traded. I am glad we are not trading him, and it really isn't even an option given Nomar's fragility and Saenz's inability to play 1B everyday if Nomar gets injured. By process of elimation of options, we are left with only one thing that could be done: send Loney to Triple A. As I said, I am sure this is the way NED sees it. I am sure WE would have done other things, at different stages of the process, to ensure it didn't come to this.

The problem with putting Loney in Triple A -- one of them, anyway -- is that it is so obvious to everybody, including Loney, that he deserves to be in the majors that a huge amount of ill will has surely been created between the Dodgers and a talented young player we want to be a big part of our future. And yes, Ned may get angry over Loney showing a "bad attitude" now and decide he doesn't want Loney to be part of our future, even though, unlike with Guzman's case, it will have been the organization's fault for CREATING the bad attitude in the first place.

The other problem I see with putting Loney in Triple A is that I can see Loney's attitude affecting his performance, which could ruin him for the long term. His insecurities will rise to the surface, and Loney will think he needs to force the development of his power instead of letting it come naturally. Loney will try to pull everything and alter his swing from a line-drive stroke to an upper cut. Loney has tried this, over short periods, in the past, and it has turned him into a .200 hitter, stirring the wrath of the Dodgers, who properly LOVE his stroke the way it is.

So here we are. We have a mess on our hands, and it probably is going to get worse -- unless Nomar gets injured in quick fashion, and to that end I am hoping someone will do the decent thing and Gilooly Nomar very soon.

2007-03-27 17:15:45
231.   underdog
Whoa - that IS better than I thought (I was looking it up, too, while you guys were). I guess it is a surprise, then. I certainly wouldn't kick Burrell out of the outfield for eating crackers.

Yeah, all you need to do is think about the Phillies bullpen (they were rumored to be interested in a Rudy Seanez trade) vs. the Dodgers to feel slightly less mopey about LA.

2007-03-27 17:15:47
232.   Greg Brock
Burrell has to be playing right field. I'll bet the Phlyin' Hawaiian sits, or Rowand is dealt.

Pat Burrell cannot be put on the bench. That would be insane.

2007-03-27 17:19:07
233.   underdog
230 Really well said, Canuck, from a very fair minded perspective - better than I could have written. (Gilooly?) There was a domino effect there, indeed.

I do think even if the bad attitude is of the team's creation, a player has to show some maturity and patience. I hope Loney can show just a little bit of both and his time will come - soon. I pray (and assume) it's with LA.

2007-03-27 17:19:37
234.   Bob Timmermann
If Burrell wasn't playing, Mike's Baseball Rants would be running red with blood.

It's not.

The latest stories on Werth in Philly papers show him to be a fourth outfielder and third string catcher.

2007-03-27 17:21:45
235.   Humma Kavula
That's too bad. I was enjoying my schadenfreude.

Now the Loney situation is all out of perspective again!

2007-03-27 17:26:27
236.   Greg Brock
235 Just think about this:

Gil Meche...Kansas City Royals...5 years, 55 million dollars.

Royals. Meche. 55 MILLION DOLLARS

Meche!

2007-03-27 17:26:54
237.   underdog
Welcome to Dodger Thoughts, where schadenfreude, persnickety and gilooly are all used in the same comments thread.

We'll be right back after this Geico commercial.

2007-03-27 17:27:01
238.   goblue1
228

is this you? someone posted a chunk of DT on the MLB.com site.... not sure why.

132. GoBears
111. Ugh. I guess we knew this was coming, and for collective DT sanity, this is certainly preferable to watching Choi rot on the bench while lesser players amass outs. And I'm happy for Choi that he's in a place where management philosophy values his well, his value.
This is bad because I think Choi was the best 1b option for the Dodgers, even ignoring his cheap price tag, and especially so in light of that, but it's worse because of the ill it bodes for the Colletti era. He didn't just make a bad decision - he revealed that he's the kind of guy who would think that this was a good decision.

Feh

2007-03-27 17:29:14
239.   Humma Kavula
236 Ahhhhhhhhhh..... thanks, I needed that.

Take that, Rob Neyer! Third place, indeed!

2007-03-27 17:29:31
240.   madmac
228 actually when I mentioned emotion I was referring to my mentioning of Choi. My only thing is I didn't/don't think the fire Ned was fair. Again, Loney isn't in Vegas yet. Certainly everyone is entitled to their opinion on whether or not Ned should have a job.
2007-03-27 17:32:45
241.   Humma Kavula
240 I don't agree with many of Ned's moves, but as to whether he should have a job:

I felt that DePodesta should have had at least three and more like five years to see if his plan would work.

Regardless of whether I believe Ned's plan is working, or even if he has a plan, I feel he deserves the same chance. Ned gets at least two and probably more like four years from me, if I owned the team.

Of course, I wouldn't have hired him in the first place, so.

2007-03-27 17:35:10
242.   LAT
237. You left out "kerfuffle".
2007-03-27 17:36:48
243.   Jon Weisman
230 - Very good comment. I would only add that the one thing I don't see people mentioning is something very obvious to me. Ned knows he has a team that will get hurt, and he wants depth. Keeping Bigbie over Loney (if that happens) essentially gives him a 26-man roster. Keeping Seanez (if that happens) over another young pitcher makes it 27 men. And so on.

If Loney goes to AAA, I would bet that Colletti sees it as only temporary.

One can argue whether Larry Bigbie is worth all this effort, one can argue that Loney should not have been blocked this offseason, but I think one has to factor in this motivation to really have a conversation about this.

2007-03-27 17:38:35
244.   Jon Weisman
240 - To be clear, I don't get emotional when someone mentions Choi. I might get emotional when someone misrepresents the site's attitude toward Choi.
2007-03-27 17:39:50
245.   Greg Brock
For the record, I have no problem with Ned Colletti being employed in any number of jobs throughout the United States.

Personally, I think Ned would make a perfectly good Quality Assurance manager at a small to medium sized aluminum siding company.

2007-03-27 17:42:53
246.   Humma Kavula
245 Along the same lines...

I don't mean this to be a rule five violation, and I'm going to work very hard from making it one...

I always felt that George W. Bush would be a very, very good commissioner of baseball. He seems to care a lot about the sport and he is a fierce advocate for the things he believes in.

He certainly seems to like baseball a lot better than the current commish does.

2007-03-27 17:47:19
247.   goblue1
244

what is the sites attitude toward choi? Im kinda curious why he is so topical.

2007-03-27 17:48:20
248.   Greg S
246- Also trying to avoid a rule five violation by only commenting on his baseball abilities... he wasn't much of an owner and when he tried to get involved in labor relations, he basically screwed things up worse than they were. He showed no abilities to be a commissioner in his time as an owner... (some might add... or since. But not those trying to avoid rule 5 violations).
2007-03-27 17:51:38
249.   Jon Weisman
247 - The site doesn't have a single attitude toward Choi. Some people were sympathetic toward Choi to varying degrees, and that got spun by others into meaning something else entirely.

And he's not topical, and I keep trying to move on, but it keeps getting brought up.

2007-03-27 17:57:05
250.   underdog
Wait, who's Choi again?

{duck}

Sorry for interrupting the end of this kerfuffle.

Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2007-03-27 17:57:57
251.   Humma Kavula
248 I guess what I mean is that he could have been a great ambassador for the sport -- someone to be its advocate, perhaps its chief lobbyist. Baseball has image problems as a sport that hates its fans; if he'd had the job eight years ago, that might have been different.

That said, he is today too polarizing a figure (to say the least) to make that happen.

2007-03-27 18:01:28
252.   Greg Brock
George Will would have made a fine commissioner. Daniel Patrick Moynahan would have been a good one as well.

/avoids controversy?

2007-03-27 18:01:59
253.   Greg S
248. Fair enough. We'll let Tommy be the head cheerleader. No polarization there.
2007-03-27 18:02:21
254.   Greg Brock
For the record, George Will is not dead.

Pat Moynihan? Dead.

2007-03-27 18:07:07
255.   El Lay Dave
238, 247. He's not topical; you can "find" in this post to see how he came up out of the (Dodger) blue. The posting on mlb.com is old posts put up by some imposter / troublemaker.
2007-03-27 18:11:21
256.   goblue1
I wasn't around as much back then, but it seems like Choi was the weapon of choice for the Coletti bashers last year, no?
2007-03-27 18:15:27
257.   Greg S
Wow. Disregarding and even baiting the host should be a rule violation of the highest order.
2007-03-27 18:16:07
258.   Humma Kavula
256 No. He is a relic of the Jim Tracy years.

Tracy benched Choi in favor of playing Jason Phillips at first base after Phillips lost his catching job because he could neither catch nor hit.

This did not go over well with the DT community, who felt that however Choi hit, he would hit better than Phillips.

Then Tracy was fired, and then DePodesta was fired, and then Choi was gone, and it was all rendered moot.

2007-03-27 18:17:04
259.   goblue1
257

Not sure exactly what that means, it was an actual question.

2007-03-27 18:21:05
260.   goblue1
258

Thanks. Wow, im glad were in the Loney-Nomar predicament rather than Choi-Philips. Yeikes!!!

2007-03-27 18:22:23
261.   Jon Weisman
256 - a weapon, not the weapon.

Do I have to beg for the conversation to be changed?

2007-03-27 18:22:26
262.   Jon Weisman
256 - a weapon, not the weapon.

Do I have to beg for the conversation to be changed?

2007-03-27 18:24:34
263.   Greg Brock
Yeah, but what about Johnny Mathis versus Diet Pepsi?
2007-03-27 18:25:21
264.   Humma Kavula
260 Yes, that's true; Loney vs. Nomar is a good problem to have, in a way.

While I'm not all that proud of my explanatory post, the most important part of it is the phrase "it was all rendered moot." I believe that most of the DT regulars are happy to leave this unhappy episode in the past.

Instead, most focus now on brand-spankin'-new unhappy episodes, like which players on the Vegas squad are right now better than the every day players in Chavez Ravine.

2007-03-27 18:26:23
265.   El Lay Dave
259 Our gracious host said (emphasis mine), "And [Choi's] not topical, and I keep trying to move on, but it keeps getting brought up."

In other words, this is old news not particularly worth rehashing.

(Choi also came up as a side note recently because he was DFAed by the Rays.)

2007-03-27 18:27:33
266.   El Lay Dave
265 Oops - should have refreshed again.
2007-03-27 18:28:42
267.   goblue1
Those who don't know their history are destine to repeat it.
2007-03-27 18:35:41
268.   Jon Weisman
No one knows the history of this discussion here better than me, and the reason I don't want it to happen right now is because so many people fill this discussion with misinformation, and I would rather spend this evening with my family than worrying about having to correct that misinformation. And I do worry. So please understand. We have discussed Choi plenty here, and we have that history to look back on if you want in the archives. But enough's enough for today. We got off to a bad start today and I'm done trying to correct it right now.
2007-03-27 18:36:35
269.   El Lay Dave
Henson also reports (as linked at top): Staying back for a day to play in the Grapefruit League finale Thursday will be Matt Kemp, James Loney, Marlon Anderson, Joe Mays and bench coach Dave Jauss, who will manage the Dodgers.
What, if anything, should we read into that?

And is Marlon Anderson still a lock for Opening Day with, what, 9 or so PAs in ST? Is his elbow still a ? ?

2007-03-27 18:45:16
270.   Humma Kavula
269 What, if anything, should we read into that?

Grady Little is going to be fired and Dave Jauss is going to be the new manager, say my tea leaves.

My tea leaves also told me to buy tech stocks in 1999, though, so be wary about this.

2007-03-27 18:50:14
271.   Greg Brock
Inside the Dodgers has officially been hijacked by a madman.
2007-03-27 18:50:20
272.   D4P
To help change the subject:

A. Perez: 309/391/491
M. Bradley: 395/511/684
A. Ethier: 304/360/348

2007-03-27 18:52:28
273.   Bob Timmermann
272
I am sorry about not going on vacation to Oregon. I had even found a nice seaside resort that I could have sold to my girlfriend.

We're going to Hawai'i. The Big Island most likely.

2007-03-27 18:54:35
274.   D4P
273
I never thought the Ducks would make the Final Four anyway. Oh well. There's always next millenium.
2007-03-27 19:00:25
275.   Bob Timmermann
274
Kauai may be the new leader in the vacation race.

The 50th state ultimately.

2007-03-27 19:01:43
276.   D4P
If we ever go to Hawai'i, it will probably be Kauai
2007-03-27 19:07:26
277.   Humma Kavula
Kauai is just beautiful. If you go, head up to the northern part of the island -- there's a state park there... too lazy to look up the name. Not too far from the Princeville Resort.

A lot of people do the first part of the hike, which is great -- it leads to a secluded beach and the only people there are those who hiked or boated in. It's great and it's where most people stop.

You will not be most people. You will keep hiking, about another 1-2 miles, and you will end up at a waterfall into a standing pool. It's gorgeous and there's nobody there. You will bring someone you love with you. It will be a good time.

2007-03-27 19:07:34
278.   Daniel Zappala
268 I never before pictured you sitting at home, wanting to spend time with your family, but at the same time fretting over how the conversations might turn at Dodger Thoughts. I guess I never realized that the comments here could mean that much to you.

Hopefully we can continue to be respectful of what this place means to Jon.

2007-03-27 19:09:14
279.   Daniel Zappala
When I call DT a "place", comments like 277 are what I think of. I have saved that one in one of my files, so that when I go to Hawaii I can do just that.
2007-03-27 19:09:42
280.   El Lay Dave
One nice thing about Hawai'i is that there is a large supply of places to stay so the prices can be competitive.

Kauai is beautiful and relaxing.

273 Which part of the big island intrigued you? I've only stayed in Kona - one of the driest parts of the state.

2007-03-27 19:10:03
281.   Bob Timmermann
277
If I got my girlfriend to hike over 1 mile anywhere, I would be stunned.

We're just like most people.

2007-03-27 19:11:45
282.   El Lay Dave
278 Amen, Amen. Respect.
279 I saved that too, for when I return.
2007-03-27 19:12:33
283.   goblue1
Poi is really nasty though. Tasts like dirt, I dont care how good for you it is.
2007-03-27 19:17:49
284.   D4P
Nasty, nasty poi, don't mean a thing, oh you nasty poi
2007-03-27 19:18:37
285.   Humma Kavula
Now I'm looking at a map of Kauai, trying to remember which state park it was. I think it was Na Pali, but I'm not positive.

Na Pali sounds right, but it seems too far from the Princeville. (I had just been promoted into my first job making real money, and we celebrated by spending one night at the Princeville.) If I remember correctly, it was just about a 15-20 minute drive from there to the mouth of the park, but then again, I might be remembering wrong -- it might have been further.

Sorry I can't pinpoint this further.

2007-03-27 19:24:15
286.   Humma Kavula
Ah! It IS Na Pali!

http://www.hawaii.gov/dlnr/dsp/NaPali/na_pali.htm

It says that the hike is much longer than I thought -- six miles total to the falls. I really don't remember this being a 12-mile round trip hike. I do remember it taking several hours, but 12 miles? That's camp overnight kind of length for us.

It also says "strenuous hiking," but neither my wife nor I is in particularly good shape.

The picture (Hanakoa Falls) is just about right.

2007-03-27 19:24:34
287.   Bob Timmermann
I'll just wander around aimlessly until a dinosaur eats me.
2007-03-27 19:33:51
288.   Daniel Zappala
I could not handle life without hiking. How else could one get photos like this:

http://ilab.cs.byu.edu/zappala/photos/5-mile-hike-view.jpg

without taking trails like this?

http://ilab.cs.byu.edu/zappala/photos/5-mile-hike-trail.jpg

2007-03-27 19:36:43
289.   Daniel Zappala
286 It does say one of the early portions is a 2 mile trail to a waterfall -- perhaps that is the one you took.
2007-03-27 19:36:58
290.   Jon Weisman
278 - I wonder about the comments at DT pretty much every waking hour. Mostly, I wonder if I'm missing anything good.
2007-03-27 19:39:27
291.   El Lay Dave
288 I love hiking too, but not in snowshoes!
2007-03-27 19:41:55
292.   Jon Weisman
New post, non-Dodger related, up top.
2007-03-27 19:43:18
293.   goblue1
290

If this was a frustrating day maybe things will get better when there are real games to discuss?
Man, I cant wait for Monday (not something I usaully say;).

2007-03-27 20:06:14
294.   oldfan60
Outside of the TB trades--all bad--I think Colletti has done a good job. This situation could be resolved easily by letting Anderson start the season in the DL.
White will get a GM job soon. The Dodgers won't be able to keep him. A smart team would have grabbed him already.
2007-03-27 20:19:21
295.   Daniel Zappala
291 That wasn't in snowshoes. That was with some good, waterproof hiking boots that came in handy when we hit snow in the 2nd part of the climb. No snow from 6500 - 7500 feet lulled us into not realizing there would be four feet from 7500 - 8500 feet.
2007-03-27 20:19:55
296.   underdog
Whew, it's safe to come back here now. And Kauai talk serves as a pleasant diversion. Too bad I have to work on a writing project til all hours tonight. :-(

I was thinking tonight about how I keep forgetting we should have Brazoban back within a few months, to add to our bullpen mix. That could have a nice (for once) domino affect on an already solid aspect of the team.

I was also thinking about how I shouldn't have had that cheese enchilada and how it's good that my girlfriend is out of town this week because of that. {opens window}

Ciao.

2007-03-27 20:30:03
297.   El Lay Dave
291 I've had similar experiences in the Eastern Sierras - but it was more like the trail was passable then at a certain point it suddenly became undetectable.

I'm strictly a day hiker though. Nighttime is for fireplaces and jacuzzis - or campfires and s'mores. (OK, maybe something strong to drink.)

2007-03-27 20:31:40
298.   El Lay Dave
294 As someone mentioned earlier, Ng seems more GM-ready than White. But White does seem like someone's GM of the future.
2007-03-27 20:42:15
299.   underdog
So, not the best day for Eric Gagne, huh. Better than Kevin Millwood, mind you.

Wait, I'm supposed to be working!

2007-03-27 20:49:29
300.   El Lay Dave
Guess Gagne got gassed.
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2007-03-27 21:00:21
301.   Daniel Zappala
Mahay's the one who pitched 1/3 of a inning, giving up 7 runs. Keeping that pace up would earn him an ERA of 189.0!
2007-03-27 21:00:33
302.   JoeyP
Sorry guys I miss typed when I wrote that Werth is going to play LF. He's going to play RF. They arent benching Burrell.

I meant to say that the Phillies arent going to start both Victorino/Rowand together.

Victorino is going to be the 4th OF'er I think.

2007-03-27 21:06:37
303.   Uncle Miltie
Bob will go to Oregon next year.

No way will he be able to turn down a free O'Douls.

2007-03-27 21:10:07
304.   twerp
Going back a bit==

210.   King of the Hobos
Let's hope today's offenses are not signs of things to come:

Dodgers- 0 runs
Giants- 9 runs
Rockies- 9 runs
Diamondbacks- 13 runs
Padres- 24 runs (in one game!)

-=-The other 4 teams didn't get fed a diet of Chris Carpenter. No disgrace to get shut down by him.

2007-03-27 21:13:28
305.   JoeyP
Actually, it'll probably be Victorino starting in CF'er.

Aaron Rowand's spring line: 62 Abs
.177/.246/.306

Shane Victorion's spring line: 69Abs: .348/.384/.478

Jayson Werth's spring line: 40 Abs
.275/.383/.375

Sorry I didnt post a link. I just went to the Phillies site, looked at their OF roster, looked at the stats, and assumed Werth was probably going to be starting in the OF.

2007-03-27 21:16:51
306.   natepurcell
Even before that, velocity and "fun" went hand-in-hand. In 1988, Dodgers pitcher Jay Howell formed a club called the Brain-Dead Heavers, with six conditions for membership: (1) no changeups, (2) throw as hard as you can, (3) change speeds by throwing harder, (4) absolutely no location, (5) little attention paid to mechanics, (6) never read the scouting reports. A young pitcher named John Wetteland was part of the fraternity until he violated policy by working on a curveball.

thats interesting.

2007-03-27 21:17:18
307.   twerp
Following up on a Dodgers.com item from yesterday about Koufax helping Tomko, also from Dodgers.com--

--Listen to the legend: Brett Tomko, named the fifth starter after his worst start of the spring, said Tuesday's was his best.

Amazing what a conversation with Sandy Koufax can do.

"He came over during my bullpen session and saw that I was talking with Derek [Lowe] about my delivery and he said, 'I hope you don't mind,' and he made a suggestion about my rhythm and how he used to do it," said Tomko. "When a Hall of Famer does that, you don't tell him no. If you don't listen to him and soak up everything he says like a sponge, you're a moron."

No further comment necessary...

2007-03-27 21:25:22
308.   Uncle Miltie
307- Ken Gurnick has convinced me. I expect Tomko to now contend for the Cy Young.
2007-03-27 21:31:42
309.   JoeyP
307---Maybe Howell's club should have had a 7th condition for membership: "Dont get caught using Pine Tar"

307- So Koufax has a lit a fire under Tomko?

Koufax has taken the arsonist job, previously assigned to Kenny Lofton?

I dig it.

2007-03-27 21:47:33
310.   ToyCannon
277
That is great info. After 2 1/2 years on DT I've found the non-Dodger info to be much more entertaining these days. Jon continues to write a great column but most of the Dodger poster comments seem to be a rehashment of old info or much to much analysis of a roster that will change within a week and isn't worth the amount of angst being poured into a fluid situation.
Unlike Xeifrank I now love it when DT veers off into some other spokes of life. Everyone seems so serious when discussing the Dodgers but quite funny when discussing life.
2007-03-27 21:55:06
311.   bhsportsguy
How come no one ever impersonates me on ITD?
2007-03-27 21:59:12
312.   ToyCannon
If anyone would like free tickets to the Dodger/Angel game this Thursday night let me know. They are located in the Loge Section 167, Row C. That would be the 3rd row, right next to the Dodger Bullpen. I have 3 available so you can take all 3 or 1 or 2, makes no diff to me. First come, first serve contact me at molokai@yahoo.com and put Dodger Thoughts in the subject and I'll forward the tickets. You must be able to print the tickets from your computer
2007-03-27 22:04:21
313.   D4P
312
Is the game in Los Angeles or Los Angeles?
2007-03-27 22:12:06
314.   trainwreck
311
I can impersonate you on BRO, if you like.
2007-03-27 22:12:38
315.   Greg Brock
311

If it makes you feel better, I impersonate you all the time over at a bunch of Nation of Islam message boards.

2007-03-27 22:16:43
316.   das411
Now that convo has officially moved to another thread...230 was one of the best non-Jon posts I have seen here in a long, long time.

and it's amazing and just a little instructive to notice that I read 217 as just an innocent typo of joeyP typing LF instead of RF...and yet even before I could get down here to respond, there were a good dozen posts ripping on my "incompetent" team and stats like OBP and EqA thrown out to try and de-justify a decision that, yes, had not in fact been made...

(and fyi the team will not trade Rowand because his t-shirt is extremely popular, as is his faceplanting into walls. Shane-O did a fine job as a 4th OF last year and there's no reason to think he won't again, plus our bench can use him).

So in other words, I for one am trying to chill out and accept my team the way it is until games start next week and we have actual decisions to endlessly re-hash. Who wants to join me?

2007-03-27 22:24:30
317.   Greg Brock
I wasn't ripping the Phillies at all. Somebody mentioned that Burrell was in decline, and I attempted to show that he was not. And I defended the Phils. I'm with ya, man!

{High Five}

2007-03-27 22:24:44
318.   D4P
I for one am trying to chill out and accept my team the way it is until games start next week and we have actual decisions to endlessly re-hash

Don't decisions about who makes the team and who doesn't count as "actual" decisions?

2007-03-27 22:29:37
319.   underdog
For what it's worth, I was only ripping on the state of the Phillies bullpen, not the whole team (I think I've posted here previously that they still have a pretty scary line-up). I'm not quite sure what they're doing with Lieber exactly, but I'll let Phillies fans hash over things with that. I have enough to worry about with the Dodgers, but I'm pretty much of the same mind as you that I'd rather wait until the season gets rolling before fretting over everything. Or maybe that's, wait until the season gets fretting before I start rolling.

I've also got enough to worry about it more immediately with the fact that there are freaking ants all over my kitchen! Argh.

2007-03-27 22:39:32
320.   underdog
How, I ask how, did the Lakers lose to the Grizzlies at home tonight? Sheesh, talk about a let down game.
2007-03-27 22:51:02
321.   LAT
I accidently put this in the wrong thread, hence a re-post:

FWIW:

Choi has been mentioned here 3,110 times.
Isturis 3,100 times
Depo 3,080.
Nomar 3,020.
Hendrickson 3,000
McCourt 630.
Ned 590.
Plaschke 508.
Koufax 344

We have pretty much said all there is to say about Choi

Only Kent 3,350 and Green 3,190 (599 by me) have been mentioned more than Choi.

2007-03-27 23:38:25
322.   Andrew Shimmin
321- And that doesn't even take into account all the times I bring him up, since I use the search engine defeating/deifying spelling.
2007-03-28 00:56:19
323.   overkill94
Dang, there sure is a lot of anger about a youngster not being allowed to sit on the bench most of the time. I realize a lot of this is residual anger from him being blocked by Nomar and LuGo in the first place, but come on people.

First of all, from seeing Loney play OF first-hand this spring, he looks pretty lost out there. He really does need a couple of months to play the OF in AAA to help him judge balls and basically get the flow of the position down. We think of the outfield as super-easy to play, but when you've parked yourself at 1B your whole life, it truly is a learning curve to adjust to the depth of balls being hit to you, knowing where to go in situations, etc. I'm not saying it'll take forever to adjust, but a month's worth of ST games when you only get a handful of balls per game isn't going to cut it.

Plus, for all the people using "small sample size" as their mantra, can't you say the same about Loney? He was damn good last year, but wasn't he pretty mediocre the years before that? I realize he looked very good when he was called up last year, but it's not unreasonable that management wasn't willing to just hand him a starting job based on one good year. Joe Thurston once had a good year in Vegas as well...

2007-03-28 00:58:34
324.   overkill94
Dammit, I just realized it's almost 1 am in Los Angeles right now so no one's going to even read this until tomorrow. Stupid Japanese time zone!
2007-03-28 01:21:03
325.   old dodger fan
324

This is an international web site. I am in Shanghai and I just read it.

I think of the postings as "showing passion" rather than "anger". Maybe you are right but I think of it that way.

Hey, it's time for me to go home. The bus is waiting.

2007-03-28 01:45:43
326.   Andrew Shimmin
First I don't get parodied over in the dumpster, now overkill calls me a nobody, just because I happen to be awake in the middle of the night?

Loney's numbers are what they are, but the explanation of them (young for level of competition; ugly injury history) is sufficient for the sta-theads.

2007-03-28 04:16:42
327.   overkill94
326 What are you on speed or something? ;)

I for one was beginning to give up on Loney before last year. He had put up 3 straight years of sub-.800 OPS and didn't seem close to showing the power that was projected of him. One could even say that last year's stats are less exciting given his lack of HR power (only 8 at LV) and his move to an extreme hitter's park.

Personally, I see his numbers mirroring a guy like Alex Rios - not much power throughout the minors, but an eventual breakout by age 25. He looks like a damn fine hitter, but I think given a full season we might even be disappointed by his numbers at this stage of his career (high average but still a sub-.800 OPS from the 1B spot).

2007-03-28 07:03:33
328.   JoeyP
Plus, for all the people using "small sample size" as their mantra, can't you say the same about Loney?

Turn it around.
Is their more than enough sample size to conclude that Larry Bigbie, Juan Pierre, and Luis Gonzales are mediocre players?

Loney, no doubt could end up mediocre.
But he might not be.

My attitude is to always go with the guy that Might not suck.

2007-03-28 07:10:36
329.   Humma Kavula
I'll own it:

I was ripping the Phillies.

I was weak.

2007-03-28 08:16:15
330.   Jon Weisman
New, Dodger-related post up top.

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