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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
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Talent Scouting
2007-04-27 09:40
by Jon Weisman

Don't have time to parse this myself today, but those with Baseball Prospectus access may want to dive into these young player ratings.

Comments (195)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-04-27 09:47:17
1.   regfairfield
If you're curious about the Dodgers:

9. Clayton Kershaw
14. Andy LaRoche
46. James Loney
79. Jonathan Meloan
88. Tony Abreu

These rankings are the PECOTA upside scores for rookies, so Kemp wasn't eligible.

2007-04-27 09:54:25
2.   still bevens
Joel Guzman is somehow still on the list. Godspeed young man.
2007-04-27 09:55:18
3.   ToyCannon
Any system that has Pedroia and Casilla as top 10 prospects in all the land must be handled with care. Nate keeps tweaking Pecota for the kids but he has a long way to go.
2007-04-27 09:55:34
4.   JoeyP
Kershaw is listed as a 'unique' player with few comparables.

Wouldnt a good comparable for him be Scott Kazmir?

2007-04-27 10:01:26
5.   Jon Weisman
3 - Yeah, I'm not endorsing PECOTA, but for a Friday when I don't have time to make a post, I thought a prospect thread would be fun. (Get people's minds off last night, anwyay.)
2007-04-27 10:01:55
6.   Greg S
Heading out to San Diego for the weekend to see all three games down there. Hopefully it goes as well as the first two games did last year at this time, and better than the third one did.
2007-04-27 10:02:32
7.   Humma Kavula
When does Kershaw make his next start? "Loons Thoughts" was fun.
2007-04-27 10:09:17
8.   ToyCannon
Given the slow starts of many of today's young 3b would DT posters be dumping some of the names below at this point in the season? All these players have either shown the ability to hit at the major league level or the minor league pedigree is good enough (Kouzmanoff, Gordon, Marte) that they should continue to get at bats. If La Roche had been brought up and struggled like (Kouz, Gordon, Marte) would Dodger fans be patient with him or would they ready to put him on a pike like the fans are ready to do with Betemit. I don't mean DT posters in general though there have been a few who would like to dump him now but when I talk Dodger baseball with fans at the games they are all ready to dump Betemit right now. I simply don't understand it.


2007-04-27 10:11:11
9.   Penarol1916
7. I don't know, but Midwest Blue and any other Chicago-area posters are welcome to join me when the Loons visit Kane County the weekend ending May 20. I'm probably not going to buy tickets until a week or so before when we have a better idea of when Kershaw will pitch, and he had better not be called up before then.
2007-04-27 10:13:18
10.   Johnson
So does this mean that Elbert has completely fallen off the face of the planet?
2007-04-27 10:16:24
11.   Humma Kavula
10 Has there been any Elbert update since he missed his start?
2007-04-27 10:18:21
12.   dkminnick
8 - I'm not ready to dump Betemit yet, but as I noted during last night's game, he consistently swings under the ball with a pronounced uppercut. This is exactly what he did last night during his 3-0 count at-bat which ended in a strikeout.

His failure as a right handed hitter is not confined to this season.

2007-04-27 10:23:16
13.   JoeyP
8--Betemit doesnt belong in the same comparison as Wright, Inge, Crede, Zimmerman IMO.

If La Roche had been brought up and struggled like (Kouz, Gordon, Marte) would Dodger fans be patient with him

I think they would be. I think fans are more patient with players that are on their 1st chance in the big leagues.

Its players that have seemed to be around for awhile, that cant get it together--like Marte/Betemit--that frustration mounts. Beltre was the poster child for this.

2007-04-27 10:24:18
14.   s choir
4 I believe Kershaw is listed as unique because he is so young.
2007-04-27 10:26:00
15.   dkminnick
Folks, how do you get the referenced comment number to show up as a link in blue?
2007-04-27 10:27:21
16.   Bob Timmermann
You can either do one of two things to get your comments to show up in arts.
1) Become a necromancer like me.
2) Put the number in []
2007-04-27 10:28:43
17.   Westernmost in Flavor

Betemit is actually 25 and won't turn 26 until after the season.

2007-04-27 10:29:52
18.   Xeifrank
Listened to about 90 seconds of the game last night via radio, as I was out picking up dinner. The Dodger announcer gave a brief rundown of the 51s game and mentioned how hot Dodgers prospect Bobby Abreu was. I wasn't sure if I was getting Yankee highlights or 51 highlights. Not sure if it was Steiner or Monday, as I could barely keep myself awake. vr, Xei
2007-04-27 10:41:51
19.   KBL
I was at the game last night, and it was a heart breaker to lose. Here are the concerns I had last night in order of importance:

1) Betemit strikes out with the bases loaded. I have no sense of hope when Betemit comes to bat anymore. I want just a little glimmer of hope that he will put the ball into the outfield, but that was not even there.

2) Pierre misses the signal for the squeeze and leaves Ethier out to dry. Now that I know Pierre missed the signal, I have to ask why we were even trying that with a 3-0 lead. If Pierre has been at least consistently grounding out to second, he can surely put the bat on the ball and bring in Ethier. On this note: I no longer have any hope when Pierre comes to bat. He seemed to be the official rally killer at the plate last night, and I think we need to move Martin to the 2 spot ASAP

3) Beimel walks the first batter, which leads to the inning where Pierre drops the ball. From where I was Pierre got a good jump but that ball just kept carrying into the gap. It is hard for me to say that he should have caught it, but it was so painful to see the possibility of getting out of the inning gone as the ball hit his glove and fell. Collective moan from the crowd.

4) On a positive note, Tsao looked great, Furcal, Martin, and Ethier had great ganes. It just seemed like our team was out of gas last night, but I have to give props to the Benitez for the killer change up on Nomar. He had not been getting it over the plate, and he threw a gem with a 3-2 count.

2007-04-27 10:45:42
20.   KBL
I was at the game last night, and it was a heart breaker to lose. Here are the concerns I had last night in order of importance:

1) Betemit strikes out with the bases loaded. I have no sense of hope when Betemit comes to bat anymore. I want just a little glimmer of hope that he will put the ball into the outfield, but that was not even there.

2) Pierre misses the signal for the squeeze and leaves Ethier out to dry. Now that I know Pierre missed the signal, I have to ask why we were even trying that with a 3-0 lead. If Pierre has been at least consistently grounding out to second, he can surely put the bat on the ball and bring in Ethier. On this note: I no longer have any hope when Pierre comes to bat. He seemed to be the official rally killer at the plate last night, and I think we need to move Martin to the 2 spot ASAP

3) Beimel walks the first batter, which leads to the inning where Pierre drops the ball. From where I was Pierre got a good jump but that ball just kept carrying into the gap. It is hard for me to say that he should have caught it, but it was so painful to see the possibility of getting out of the inning gone as the ball hit his glove and fell. Collective moan from the crowd.

4) On a positive note, Tsao looked great, Furcal, Martin, and Ethier had great games. It just seemed like our team was out of gas last night, but I have to give props to the Benitez for the killer change up on Nomar. He had not been getting it over the plate, and he threw a gem with a 3-2 count.

Oh, the parking situation was bad, but it was really crowded last night. I also forgot how bad the pedestrian situation can be. The backups at the top of the stairs really slowed down my commute to the car!

2007-04-27 10:46:07
21.   KBL
Sorry about the double post. Feel free to delete one, Jon.
2007-04-27 10:47:26
22.   Jon Weisman
19 - Betemit leads the team in sacrifice flies - there's your glimmer.

Pierre reaches base 30 percent of the time - only 10 percent below how often great hitters do, so to speak. There's hope there, too.

There's a difference between players being weak links and players being hopeless. Need to keep things in perspective.

2007-04-27 10:52:13
23.   dkminnick
16 - Thanks, Bob!
2007-04-27 10:56:35
24.   Westernmost in Flavor
In the interest of full disclosure I'm a big Betemit fan and I badly want him to bust out of this slump. I'm glad to see that Grady is being patient with him especially considering how impressive his defense has been so far.

So does anyone think Beltre is a possible comparison for Betemit? Both were top prospects who were illegally signed underage. They both had difficulties adjusting to the majors and lost a bit of their "prospect hype" in the process.

Betemit minor leagues: .279/.338/.426
Beltre minor leagues: .307/.403/.546

Betemit major leagues: .271/.332/.433
Beltre major leagues: .271/.328/.457

Clearly Beltre had the better minor league career but they have performed similarly in the bigs. Beltre has a MVP-caliber season under his belt and is 2 1/2 years older as well.

Note: these numbers don't include the current season.

2007-04-27 10:58:08
25.   ToyCannon
He's also tied with Martin for the team lead in walks.
2007-04-27 10:58:38
26.   Westernmost in Flavor


2007-04-27 10:59:35
27.   D4P
Pierre reaches base 30 percent of the time - only 10 percent below how often great hitters do, so to speak

Just as players who hit .200 only hit ten percent below players who hit .300.

In other words, ten percent is not only "big" in this context, but it's especially relevant when the person ten percent less is at a very poor level.

2007-04-27 11:01:19
28.   Bob Timmermann
You must have taken one of those online necromancy courses.
2007-04-27 11:02:42
29.   ToyCannon
I agree with Wright and Zimmerman but not with Inge and Crede. For years Crede was a low average low ob guy with some power who finally upped his game after several years in the majors. Inge is exactly what Betemit could become. The other guys are on a much higher plane, but the point really is that so many 3b are struggling and that it is not limited to our guy.
2007-04-27 11:02:57
30.   Humma Kavula
27 The problem, of course, is that it's not "ten percent." Pierre gets on about twenty-five percent less often than, say, J.D. Drew does... to pick a loaded name.
2007-04-27 11:03:36
31.   Jon Weisman
27 - I'm not saying - in fact, I went out of my way to make this clear - that the difference is not relevant. I'm just talking about the notion that there's no hope Pierre comes up to the plate. I don't think I'm being overly literal to point out that Pierre does get on base enough to keep him from being hopeless.
2007-04-27 11:07:19
32.   dkminnick
28 Yes, my demon-summoning was getting a little rusty. I'm back on track now.
2007-04-27 11:10:54
33.   D4P
Maybe equating "hopeless" with a .000 OBP is being overly literal. But technically, you're correct. Any player in the league has a greater than zero chance of getting on base, so there's always hope.
2007-04-27 11:14:50
34.   underdog
I looked through the comments from past 12 hours and didn't see mention of this, but apologies if someone already mentioned this... I sure was excited to see that Matt Kemp homered and tripled in his return to action for the 51s last night.

Anyone hear how he's holding up physically?

When he comes back, I hope the Dodgers keep Tsao (if they have to drop a pitcher, Seanez can retire, thanks). They don't need Anderson/Valdez/Martinez, so I'd vote for one of them, Valdez likely, going down, keeping the extra OF-er. Anyway, I'm looking forward to his return. Maybe the D's can get a little bit of a power surge when that happens.

2007-04-27 11:17:19
35.   ToyCannon
Now that we have an A team playing somewhat in the proximity of Los Angeles shouldn't we be planning a DT date. The team will be playing in Lancaster from 5/22 - 5/26. I plan on going to one of those games. If anyone else is interested email me at and put DodgerThoughts A Game in the subject.

2007-04-27 11:18:25
36.   Jon Weisman
33 - But I'm saying that - as you point out the difference between .300 and .400 - there is a much greater difference between .000 and .300. So if you're going to make a big deal about the former, you have to respect the latter.

That's why I don't feel I'm being overly literal. I'm not "technically" correct. I really think that there is a point here people need to remember. There is a significant difference between weak and hopeless.

2007-04-27 11:22:29
37.   overkill94
Anybody who went to the game last night willing to sell their bobblehead? Due to some horrendous traffic, it took my car 2 1/2 hours to get to the game and thus missed out on our bobbleheads. I was able to buy one from the guy sitting next to me to give to my sister (he's her favorite player), but that still leaves my dad out to dry.

Anyone willing to help out, send me an e-mail at karl.hungus at

2007-04-27 11:22:55
38.   D4P
When he comes back, I hope the Dodgers keep Tsao (if they have to drop a pitcher, Seanez can retire, thanks)

This is just conjecture on my part, but despite Ned's reputation as a great communicator, I get the impression that he tries to avoid difficult conversations with veterans by not kicking them off the team like he should.

Rather than having to initiate potentially uncomfortable encounters with older players by either sending them down to AAA or releasing them outright, he chooses to do these things to younger players, to whom he can offer the kind of verbal reassurances (e.g. "You're still young, you'll get your chance") that can't really be offered to older players past their prime who might not get a shot with another team if released by the Dodgers.

2007-04-27 11:25:18
39.   Tangled Up in Blue
34 I look forward to Kemp's return as well. The problem is that he will take at bats away from Ethier, who appears to be improving at the plate.

I agree that we should keep Tsao and send Valdez down (and hope he clears waivers) but I dont think that will happen. Little will want to keep Valdez on the roster considering the way Betemit has been swinging the bat.

2007-04-27 11:26:20
40.   Daniel Zappala
36 Would you consider a 56 OPS+ over an entire season to be hopeless? Or just weak?
2007-04-27 11:28:28
41.   D4P
There is a significant difference between weak and hopeless

I doubt anyone would disagree, but I don't think the posters who used the word "hopeless" really meant "zero percent chance of a certain player doing something positive."

It was one of those "exaggerations"... (

2007-04-27 11:31:35
42.   FirstMohican
11 - You mean, like, an Elbert Repor?
2007-04-27 11:35:40
43.   Tangled Up in Blue
Pierre isn't hopeless he is just really bad right now. He has scored 18 runs and there is still time for him to turn things around.

Remember Furcal was awful to start the year last year and he turned out fine.

2007-04-27 11:35:43
44.   underdog
Btw, as frustrating as the game was last night, it was rendered even more so by having to listen to FP Santangelo as the guest commentator with Jon Miller on the Giants' TV broadcast. He's as bad an announcer as he was a player. My favorite moment was when he "admired" Russell Martin for (I'm paraphrasing but this is close to a direct quote) "being one of those guys who makes up for some lack of skills with determination." Lack of skills? Martin has more tools than Santangelo has in his garage.

The whole thing was so annoying - even Miller was annoying last night and I usually like him - that I was both fastfowarding the TiVo (watched it this morning) and muted it when I could.

2007-04-27 11:37:01
45.   Benaiah
There are several lists on that website, one is for players under 25 (Mauer tops this list). Here are the Dodgers:

17) Russell Martin (between Jose Reyes and Evan Longoria)
28) Matt Kemp (b/w Felix Pie and Miekk Napoli)
30) Clayton Kershaw (Napoli and Chris Iannetta)
39) Andy Laroche (Mark Teahen and Rich Harden)

2007-04-27 11:37:01
46.   D4P
The problem with the idea of Pierre "turning it around" is that his ceiling is very low.
2007-04-27 11:37:57
47.   underdog
Also in that broadcast, they did point out the Dodgers' bobblehead night jinx, in which batters honored with their own bobblehead night had previously gone 0-fer (in five prior nights - Shawn Green, Paul Lo Duca, Fred McGriff, I don't remember the other two). And then Nomar promptly ripped a hit to drive in a run. Of course, he then went 0-fer the rest of the night and basically did look jinxed.
2007-04-27 11:38:10
48.   Humma Kavula
43 Except that Furcal has been good before.

I agree that the most likely thing that will happen is that by the end of the year, Pierre's stats will be just about what they are every year, which, in my opinion, is not fine.

2007-04-27 11:38:34
49.   bhsportsguy
Ahh the joy of playing over .700 baseball to the despair of playing .000 baseball.

While the Dodgers do not have to play perfect baseball to win, they do need to cut down a lot of the mistakes they have made starting last Saturday.

1. You cannot give away runs both defensively (bad throws to second, dropped balls) or offensively (not driving in runners on third base with less than two out, baserunning errors).

2. I have been thinking about this for a week or so but I just get this feeling that Juan Pierre is pressing both in the field, at the plate and on base. I am not saying that he is much much better player than he is showing but he is not even the player that he has shown himself to be during his career. If you look at his career stats, the only thing that stands out is his walk totals otherwise its a fairly consistent set of stats.

I am not saying its great nor was their room for a lot of improvement but it was consistent.

Take the fly ball he dropped over the weekend. Now he is has been playing pro ball a long time and certainly knows his limitations when it comes to throwing, but obviously he has heard the criticism and I think changed his game to try and show someone that he could make a throw.

Maybe he thinks that for $9 million a year he should become a different player, while that may be what other people think, he should just worry about being the player he has been because basically that is what Ned and Dodgers signed him to be.

2007-04-27 11:39:08
50.   KBL
Okay, I now know I used the wrong word. Instead of hopeless, lets just say "lack of confidence". For example, if I see Martin, Kent, Nomar, or Gonzo on deck, I look forward to the possibility. If I see Pierre on deck, I think "oh crap" And this is coming from someone who wants to defend him (most of the time)
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-04-27 11:40:07
51.   Xeifrank
Guo is scheduled to make a AAA start this sunday.
via Rototimes.
vr, Xei
2007-04-27 11:41:07
52.   Tangled Up in Blue
46 True, but I think he is better than what he has shown us so far.
2007-04-27 11:42:02
53.   Bob Timmermann
Not that I want to start a debate over transliteration of Chinese, but how should "Tsao" be pronounced?
2007-04-27 11:42:20
54.   bhsportsguy
38 The CBA makes it nearly impossible to send anyone down even with options once they have 3 years of MLB service time. Once a player, even one who has never been optioned gets that level of experience, that player must agree to be assigned to a minor league team.

Also which players are you talkig about anyway?

2007-04-27 11:46:32
55.   Xeifrank
53. Pretty much exactly like you spelled it. The "ao" sound sounds like the word "ow" sound in the english word "owl". So, in review it sounds like ts (a t sound quickly followed by an s sound) then "ow". In pinyin it is Cao, in Wade-Giles it is Tsao. To throw you for a loop, the "Ts" in Tsingtao beer (the city itself is spelled Qingdao) is pronounced with an english "Ch" as in the word "cheers". vr, Xei
2007-04-27 11:47:01
56.   FirstMohican
2007-04-27 11:48:46
57.   Benaiah
55 - Chingdao? Is that right?
2007-04-27 11:49:05
58.   Tangled Up in Blue
48 I agree. My point was simply that Pierre is not this bad. There is room for improvement.

I am not a fan of the Pierre signing based on his stats as well as the fact that both Jones and Hunter are up for free agency next year.

2007-04-27 11:50:08
59.   Frip
Pierre: "I pretty much directly affected this game in a bad way..."

I didn't post this to say, well at least he's honest.

But to mention how honest. This is going further than most people would. It's a rare thing for an athlete to offer, of his own volition, a summation so final and exacting when placing the blame...the very loss, on himself.

Most players are careful to be insinuating and vague when blaming themselves.

Yes I know, it was obvious that he screwed up. But still, this was a great Chauncey Gardiner impression, and I respect him for it.

At the very least it offers some aspect of Pierre to root for.

Or maybe I'm just reaching in desperation for something...anything.

I heard when he's approached by Girl Scouts with their cookie boxes, he buys not one...but the whole lot. And he doesn't even like cookies.

2007-04-27 11:55:50
60.   Xeifrank
57. That's how you would pronounce it, but it is spelled with a "Q" in place of the "Ch". Next time you order "Chow mein", the "chow" is the same pronunciation (just different tone/inflection) as Tsao (the Dodgers pitcher). In pinyin it is spelled Cao and means fried (cao mian = chow mein). When I was in China, almost every morning my mother-in-law would cook me "cao ji dan", which is fried/scambled eggs. vr, Xei
2007-04-27 11:56:43
61.   Eric Enders
The article Jon linked is one of BP's freebies, by the way, so you don't need to be a subscriber.

They list the organizations with the best under-25 talent as follows:
1. Devil Rays 1388.0 935.9 2323.9
2. Marlins 906.1 1072.6 1978.7
3. Twins 1117.0 849.5 1966.5
4. Angels 1043.6 818.2 1861.8
5. Braves 1263.5 440.8 1704.3
6. Indians 1078.4 617.8 1696.2
7. Dodgers 947.7 590.5 1538.2
8. D'Backs 954.6 500.1 1454.7

I am really having a hard time wrapping my head around that one. I can't fathom how numbers 7 and 8 on the list could be ranked that low. The Braves, especially, are nowhere near the Dodgers in terms of under-25 talent.

The key Dodgers who would have been considered are:

So there are 6 teams who have a better group than that? I find that difficult to believe.

It is interesting that their system believes Russell Martin is 17th on the list of players who have the most future potential, ahead of guys like Lincecum and Delmon Young. That's before Martin's hot start this year, too.

2007-04-27 12:00:16
62.   Eric Enders
By the way, when we were playing the Pirates, I went through the roster in my head to figure out how many current Dodgers had actually played for Tracy. There's been such a high turnover rate that the answer was only five: Saenz, Kent, Lowe, Penny, and Broxton.

Pretty wild that a 22-year-old kid ranks 5th on the Dodgers in seniority.

2007-04-27 12:00:22
63.   Jon Weisman
41 - And I understand that.

Just think about this. Colletti or Little says something, and we scrutinize it within a millimeter of its life. I think the language we use should stand the same test. That doesn't mean you can't use metaphor or hyperbole, despite what the guidelines here say. But if you want credibility, you need to be conscious that if you exaggerate too much, you risk being dismissed.

This came up most during the Jim Tracy battles of '05. Someone would call Tracy the worst manager alive. Yes, I know, it's a figure of speech. But it was also a signal to people defending Tracy that there was no point in hearing the rest of the arugments against him, because the person making them obviously wasn't being reasonable.

Now, perhaps I was wrong to address KBL on this when he was implicitly expressing a feeling rather than an empirical observation. But I think the overall point is still extremely valid. If you go too far in putting someone down, you will push some people sympathetic to your cause away from you and have no chance of winning over the people unsympathetic to your cause.

Since the point of this site is not to vent frustration but to have constructive dialogue, I just think it's something worth keeping in mind. I'm not happy about Pierre, but if we get in the habit of calling him hopeless at the plate (again, don't mean to single out KBL here, just using it as an example), when that's not true, even if you just mean it as a figure of speech or as an emotion, that accomplishes nothing.

2007-04-27 12:03:26
64.   Eric Enders
59 "This is going further than most people would. It's a rare thing for an athlete to offer, of his own volition, a summation so final and exacting when placing the blame...the very loss, on himself."

I disagree. I recall hearing quotes quite often from players saying "I'm the one who lost the game for us" and similar sentiments. Pierre, if anything, hedged. I mean, "Pretty much"?

I'm not saying Pierre's a bad guy or that he should necessarily flagellate himself, just disagreeing with your contention that players usually don't do that.

2007-04-27 12:03:39
65.   Humma Kavula
59 I don't know about that. What else was he going to say?

Even Penny put the blame on himself. "I thought we could have scored a few more, but I had a lead and I didn't protect it," he said in the Times. "My stuff was fine. I should have done it."

Now, it's not lost on me that Penny qualifies things before he takes the blame... so it's not quite the same thing... but I wonder if Pierre's comment was about this one game, when really, his play all along has been poor.

2007-04-27 12:03:49
66.   Benaiah
62 - McCann, Salty, Elvis Andrus, Lillibridge, Chuck James and Francoeur is a really nice core. McCann is the 3rd most valuable under 25 player.
2007-04-27 12:06:45
67.   regfairfield
61 The big thing the Braves have going for them is McCann, who is worth more than Martin and Kemp combined in that system. They also have Brent Lilbridge, who PECOTA probably irrationally loves, Elvis Andrus, Salatamacchia, and Francouer. That makes up a huge percentage of their score.
2007-04-27 12:07:07
68.   Eric Enders
"If you go too far in putting someone down, you will push some people sympathetic to your cause away from you and have no chance of winning over the people unsympathetic to your cause."

This has happened with me and my dad, I think. Whenever we talk about the Dodgers, I never lose an opportunity to complain about Pierre. My dad believes in sabermetrics at a certain novice level -- he can see the value of OBP, etc. -- but he also believes Pierre has some good qualities as a player, while I believe he doesn't. It's gotten to the point now that he defends Pierre whenever he makes a bad play.

2007-04-27 12:09:05
69.   Eric Enders
66, 67 I love McCann. I've gone out of my way to draft him for my fantasy team the last two years. I'm just not buying that he's nearly twice as valuable as Martin.
2007-04-27 12:10:21
70.   dzzrtRatt
59 I'm still steaming over Pierre.

In reading his comments about the game, I started wondering: Maybe he's too nice. Maybe he should be a little more like Barry Bonds and a little less like Gandhi.

Maury Wills, his role model, was a total (possible Rule #1 violation). So was Rickey Henderson. Willie McGee. Even David Eckstein, who seems to enjoy annoying the other team.

It seems like the players for whom speed is the key to their game do better by flaunting it. I don't know if there's anything to be done, but I sense that until Pierre grows a nastier ego, he'll continue to be the player he is: The nice guy who is the first to blame himself for his own failures, and therefore has many of them.

2007-04-27 12:12:52
71.   regfairfield
It should also be noted that PECOTA doesn't think all that highly of Billingsley and Elbert right now. PECOTA tends to side towards pitchers with established strikeout to walk ratios, which neither really possess yet. It still has them as above average pitchers, just not the great ones that we're envisioning.
2007-04-27 12:13:00
72.   Moon Shot
63 Thank you for stating that so well
2007-04-27 12:13:26
73.   Eric Enders
70 Great, now I'm the one defending Juan Pierre. Here goes.

I don't think you need to be a jerk to be a great player. I also don't see the connection between being fast and having to be a jerk.

Ty Cobb was an ass. Lou Brock wasn't. They both did okay.

Pierre knows how to flaunt his speed. Ask Jason Hirsh about that.

2007-04-27 12:14:04
74.   JoeyP
It is interesting that their system believes Russell Martin is 17th on the list of players who have the most future potential, ahead of guys like Lincecum and Delmon Young. That's before Martin's hot start this year, too.

Their system seems to over value catchers.
Wasnt Joe Mauer ranked ahead of Miguel Cabrera?

Mauer's good, but he'll never be better than Cabrera. Thats like argueing that Pudge is more valuable than Pujols.

2007-04-27 12:15:46
75.   regfairfield
74 If Mauer keeps putting up .950-1.000 OPSes as a catcher, he's more valuable than Cabrera. It has Mauer as the best young player in baseball by a huge margin.
2007-04-27 12:17:10
76.   Benaiah
74 - Well, Mauer is a lot better hitter than Pudge. A very good hitting catcher is more valuable than a great hitting 1B in most situations. You could make a good case that Piazza was the best hitter of the 90s for this reason.
2007-04-27 12:18:21
77.   Eric Enders
75 I think the caveat there is that a lot of Mauer's value is tied up in batting average, which is a very volatile stat, and it's tough to expect Mauer to continue to hit .345 as a catcher when he's already had significant knee injury problems at age 24.
2007-04-27 12:20:05
78.   Eric Enders
"You could make a good case that Piazza was the best hitter of the 90s for this reason."

No you couldn't, not by a longshot. You could, though, make the argument that he was the best player (which was probably your point anyway).

2007-04-27 12:24:11
79.   Benaiah
78 - Most valuable player I guess would have been most precise, but you did get the point.
2007-04-27 12:24:33
80.   dzzrtRatt
73 My prescription was Pierre-specific. I wasn't suggesting that all great speed-oriented players are jerks. But even Brock had a partially negative motivation -- to prove what stupid trade the Cubs made. I just was conveying my intuitive sense that Pierre could benefit from having more of an edge. Nomar, Kent, Martin, Furcal, even Gonzo -- all these players seem to have a little chip on their shoulders. Pierre's body language is more "it's all good" than it should be.

Maybe Lasorda could come up with a nickname for him like he did for Hershiser, another overly nice guy at the outset of his career.

2007-04-27 12:28:31
81.   ToyCannon
I still find Pecota pointless for the exercise that Nate used it for regarding prospects. At this point next year you will see a huge difference in his list based on how the "kids" did this year.
2007-04-27 12:32:05
82.   Daniel Zappala
Who's the one that's supposed to be edgy around here? Andrew? Maybe Pierre could talk to him.
2007-04-27 12:36:38
83.   ToyCannon
Just to elaborate I don't mean to say that a prospect list based on minor league numbers is pointless but that extrapolating those numbers into total career numbers based on one or two years of A ball or in Kershaw's case not even a full professional season seems absurd.
2007-04-27 12:38:28
84.   ToyCannon
I used to be edgy but the lobotomy fixed all that.
2007-04-27 12:44:29
85.   Bob Timmermann
I never knew that David Eckstein irritated other teams with his style of play. I thought he just irritated a rather vocal subset of Dodger Thoughts readers and the FJM set.

Just what in particular does Eckstein do to irritate other teams? He doesn't steal a lot of bases.

2007-04-27 12:49:57
86.   Humma Kavula
I also used to be edgy, but the sandpaper fixed all that.
2007-04-27 12:57:03
87.   ToyCannon
Because he is so nice he tends to irritate those that are edgy thus becoming edgy by not being edgy. He is multi-faceted.
2007-04-27 12:58:50
88.   trainwreck
I agree with ToyCannon. I am not a big fan of BP's prospect ratings. Joe Sheehan was on ESPN yesterday and kind of bashed Felix Pie, yet he is ranked so high on that list.
2007-04-27 13:09:25
89.   Daniel Zappala
I'm edgy like a ruler, so I'm straight edgy.
2007-04-27 13:12:02
90.   Curtis Lowe
Does anyone know the type of pitches Kemp drove last night?

Every time I read that he got a good piece of a breaking ball I get giddy like a pig before a rainstorm.

2007-04-27 13:12:21
91.   D4P
Just think about this. Colletti or Little says something, and we scrutinize it within a millimeter of its life. I think the language we use should stand the same test

I agree.
2007-04-27 13:12:46
92.   Xeifrank
If the Padres beat the Dodgers and the DBacks beat the Giants (both should be favored to win tonight) then there would be four teams all within 1/2 game of each other. I'm sure Bob has already gone through all the possible permutations of what the earliest date possible the NL West can be in a virtual four way tie for first place. vr, Xei
2007-04-27 13:14:36
93.   Daniel Zappala
Since I took up his flag in the previous thread, I must repeat it here, since we are discussing prospects: Mitch Jones for CF. Yes, he of the 1.02 OPS in Vegas and the pure Mormon heritage.
2007-04-27 13:17:06
94.   D4P
I looked at his stats last night after you mentioned him, and his OPS was SLG heavy. He looked like the kinda guy who was really benefiting from the thin air, and who wouldn't fare nearly as well in the MLB.
2007-04-27 13:19:28
95.   Daniel Zappala
94 He only needs to do better than Pierre.

And hey, I've never seen you use brackets to refer to a post. I may be giving up my status as a minion and asking for a refund.

2007-04-27 13:20:45
96.   underdog
And the pure Mormon heritage is a bonus, how exactly? Not sure how much to trust his stats right now, though he's undeniably playing well. Seems like he's at borderline journeyman status, but some good players have picked it up a little later in their careers. I just don't think the Dodgers are taking him too seriously. They'd be more likely to call up Bigbie, after Kemp, if needing another outfielder (imho).
2007-04-27 13:26:56
97.   Curtis Lowe
96- When I was in High School the best basketball players at my school were all mormon.

I don't know if that answers your question but it sure does answer mine.

2007-04-27 13:27:33
98.   Bob Timmermann
Actually, I was taking a nap.
2007-04-27 13:29:35
99.   D4P
I've used brackets before, but only when the post to which I'm referring is "a long way away from" the post I'm typing. If I'm expecting the reference post to be directly above the one I'm typing, the brackets seem unnecessary.

That being said, even the use of brackets for a post that is a long way away can be unnecessary, if the reference post is hidden up above in a different section.

2007-04-27 13:37:10
100.   D4P
PS: I think the function of the brackets would be dramatically improved if they could navigate you to posts that are hidden above.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-04-27 13:40:09
101.   Daniel Zappala
96 He's just a local kid, and I was making a poor attempt at a joke. My 1-day-old campaign for Mitch Jones is my attempt to tilt at windmills. Seeing Pierre in CF is making me do crazy things.
2007-04-27 13:41:45
102.   D4P
Seeing Pierre in CF is making me do crazy things

Like lobby for more Mormons on the team and suggest the termination of your minion status.

Snap out of it, Daniel! Think of your children! All of them!

2007-04-27 13:58:23
103.   Dodgers49
For the non-stats folks, STATS 101 continues:

Stats 101: Don't trust the W.

>>> In the previous edition of Stats 101, we took a look at how to improve upon traditional offensive statistics, and this time we'll shift our focus to the run-prevention side of things. To begin exploring the world of pitching and defense, we'll first take a look at what's wrong with the statistics we usually depend upon to measure prowess on the mound or with the glove. <<<

2007-04-27 14:04:16
104.   Dodgers49
Speaking of the Dodgers NEXT centerfielder. :-)

>>> "He might be a late bloomer," Bundy said. "Some guys don't figure it out offensively until they're 26 or so." <<<

2007-04-27 14:04:44
105.   gibsonhobbs88
In regards to last night's game, I think no. 102 from the previous thread hit the nail on the button. The Dodgers should have put that game away in the first 3 innings. That was the poorest looking attempt at a suicide squeeze that I ever saw. I was so upset by the end of the third inning, that I just flipped back on occasion but had the horrible timing to be on the game when Pierre could not corral that flyball off Durham's bat. That was the most frustrating hideous game of the week, Thanks Dodgers for getting my weekend off to a wretched start.
2007-04-27 14:13:42
106.   Bob Timmermann
From Jon Heyman at

"Wilson Betemit's struggles are such that even the nice folks of L.A. are starting to complain."

That's who we're complaining about?

2007-04-27 14:16:52
107.   Dodgers49
To the person who asked about Larry Bigbie in the last thread, I saw a reference a few days ago that Bigbie was nursing a minor injury (but had not been placed on the DL). Unfortunately, I don't remember where I saw it and haven't been able to find it.
2007-04-27 14:17:28
108.   Bob Timmermann
Jonathan Figueroa of the Dodgers organization suspended 50 games for using something illegal:

2007-04-27 14:21:01
109.   JMK
It's hard to disagree with the many intelligent DT posters who argue that Pierre is horrible. But I really like the guy. He works really hard and seems to love to play. By listening to some of his comments during the Jackie Robinson ceremonies he seems to appreciate the game and his place in it as a black ballplayer. And by some accounts he's a good teammate and a good guy off the field. I know the Dodgers are going to have to win probably in spite of him rather than because of him, but I'm rooting really hard for him. I like him.
2007-04-27 14:21:16
110.   Hythloday
108 - That 7.29 ERA was positively Bondsian.

Have any good minor leaguers been busted yet?

2007-04-27 14:21:36
111.   Jon Weisman
106 - I read that and thought it was interesting that we're still thought of as nice. Our booing and message board complaining haven't affected our reptuation.
2007-04-27 14:24:07
112.   underdog
101 Ah, sorry, Daniel, I think I knew you were being facetious, but my own response in the same vein was even more lost in translation. ;-)

(Btw, I thought putting brackets around the # does in fact put an anchor link in, and jumps you back to that post? Maybe it only appears not to work when the post cited is on the same screen (i.e., within a few posts of the new one.)

108 I used to get he and Meloan mixed up, as far as prospects go, but certainly don't do that any longer.

2007-04-27 14:25:47
113.   Marty
Pierre: Sorry I missed the sign Grady.

Grady: Hey, I want to tell you something, OK? And I want to leave a message for you right now. 'Cause again, it's 10:30 here in New York on a Wednesday, and once again I've made an ass of myself trying to give you the squeeze sign. When the time comes for me to give you the squeeze sign, I stop whatever I'm doing and I go and I give you the squeeze sign. And you don't even come close to the ball. I want you to know something, OK?

I'm tired of playing this game with you. I'm leaving this message with you to tell you you have insulted me for the last time. You have insulted me. You don't have the brains or the decency as a human being. I don't give a damn that you hit .300, or that you get on base a lot, or that you steal bases. You have humiliated me for the last time with this missing signs.

And when I come out there next week, I'm going to fly out there for the day just to straighten you out on this issue. I'm going to let you know just how disappointed in you I am and how angry I am with you that you've done this to me again. You've made me feel like ^##% and you've made me feel like a fool over and over and over again. And this crap you pull on me with this #$#$%^@ sign situation that you would never dream of doing to the Marlins and you do it to me constantly and over and over again. I am going to get on a plane and I am going to come out there for the day and I am going to straighten your ass out when I see you. Do you understand me? I'm going to really make sure you get it. Then I'm going to get on a plane and I'm going to turn around and come home. So you'd better be ready Friday the 20th to meet with me. So I'm going to let you know just how I feel about what a rude little pig you really are. You are a rude, thoughtless little pig, OK?

2007-04-27 14:28:13
114.   KBL

You will be happy to know that the Dodger fans left the stadium last night with their heads held high and full of hospitality towards the Giants fans.

Oh wait, the guy next to me screamed over and over, "well, F- the Giants, F- the Giants" and the other guy kept bringing up San Francisco's history with the Homosexual community, but not in a very nice way.

I wanted to tell these people to shut up, and in some instances I did, but sometimes I am concerned for my own safety with some of these fans. That is too bad.

2007-04-27 14:29:27
115.   Jon Weisman
113 - That's too much, Marty. LOL
2007-04-27 14:33:11
116.   Benaiah
113 - That is pretty funny.

The resulting media storm has put me squarely in Alec Baldwin's camp on this issue. Obviously you shouldn't say bad things to your kids, but it isn't that big a deal. My parents said some mean things, I am sure everyone's parents did. I would sue everyone involved because this seems like an awful breech of privacy.

2007-04-27 14:36:50
117.   Bob Timmermann
Once more unto the breech, or we'll seal up their walls with our English dead.

But put them in the backwards.

2007-04-27 14:40:51
118.   trainwreck
lol classic

If only Grady sounded like Alec Baldwin.

2007-04-27 14:41:39
119.   Benaiah
117 - Yeah, I guess this has been beaten to death. Nevertheless, this one is sticking in my craw. But how about dem' bums?
2007-04-27 14:42:15
120.   JimBilly4
Note on Mitch Jones:

It is not the thin air. The guy has been a power hitter up and down the minor leagues (165 HR over 7 seasons). His problem is he has been a .250 average hitter. While a 250/350/500 guy would be a decent addition to a major league club, if he has any further fall off in average (something I assume scouts have thought likely) he would soon not be worth the power. Still, he is interesting. I would rather take a try on that 29-year old "late bloomer" than Valdez.

2007-04-27 14:42:30
121.   jasonungar07
(I don't care how old you are 29 or 30) You are a rude, thoughtless little pig, OK?

LOL. Marty that was great.

2007-04-27 14:43:32
122.   underdog
Yeah, Grady Little should watch what he says on Pierre's answering machine or Us Weekly will be all over it. (Pretty funny, Marty.)

(Sigh, the Us Weekly for which I've been gifted with a free subscription, sigh.)

2007-04-27 14:46:22
123.   Curtis Lowe
113- Hiiillllllarious.
2007-04-27 14:52:57
124.   Daniel Zappala
To satiate all those Mitch Jones fans, here's a good article from this past December from the Provo Daily Herald:

Great quote:

"To see all the guys that I played with (and against) are now all in the big leagues in different organizations is frustrating," Jones explained. "I know I can play with those guys, but part of it is being in the right situation. There are plenty of guys in the minor leagues that are better than players in the major leagues, but it just depends on what an organization needs."

2007-04-27 14:58:20
125.   JoeyP
One of the strange lines in baseball:

BJ Upton
17-35 on BABIP

2007-04-27 14:58:37
126.   Benaiah
Jose Reyes has been phenomenal this year. B.P. says he is the second most valuable hitter in baseball behind A-Rod. His line of .356/.440/.609 is gorgeous, throw in 12 steals in 14 attempts and excellent play at short stop and you have an MVP. I wonder if he can keep it up? His walk rate basically doubled (7% to 13%), his BABIP is .387 and he already has 5 triples. However, his LD% is 28% which translates to a .400 BABIP and no one is denying he is really fast. I think he will top .900 OPS this year with a 80% success rate on steals, which would make him very valuable indeed (sort of the anti-J.P. as a lead off hitter).
2007-04-27 15:02:58
127.   D4P
I don't care about his OBP. I just want to know whether he gets on base an awful lot.
2007-04-27 15:04:12
128.   Dodgers49
109. I like him.

Actually, I like him too. The problem is I would like him a LOT better if he were playing center field for the San Francisco Giants (and I'm having a hard time forgiving Ned for not allowing that to happen).

2007-04-27 15:17:55
129.   Eric Enders
126 There was a time not too long ago when Reyes appeared to be on the Cesar Izturis career path. My how times have changed.

Last year Reyes was the third player ever to hit .300 with at least 15 triples, 10 homers, 20 doubles, 50 steals. One was Willie McGee in his MVP year. The other was Honus Wagner in 1908, the greatest individual season in BB history according to Bill James.

That was last year. This year he's better.

Who are the 10 most valuable players in the league so far? I will throw out 10 names.

1. Jose Reyes
2. Hanley Ramirez (his stats actually are better than Reyes', but in far fewer PAs).
3. Barry Bonds
4. Carlos Beltran
5. Derrek Lee
6. Russell Martin
7. Tim Hudson
8. Aaron Rowand
9. Brian McCann
10. Chipper Jones

2007-04-27 15:28:28
130.   underdog
So... Hendrickson and Meredith tonight, eh? Hard to predict what the heck's gonna happen in this one.
2007-04-27 15:30:52
131.   underdog
Oh, I meant to post this in the last one - ItD just put the line-up up (that doesn't sound right):

Furcal, SS
Pierre, CF
Nomar, 1B
Kent, 2B
Gonzo, LF
Martin, C
Ethier, RF
Valdez, 3B
Hendrickson, P

No "meat" in this line-up, ahem.

2007-04-27 15:31:23
132.   Bob Timmermann
Actually, I was going for a joke that was way, way, way, way too subtle.
2007-04-27 15:33:44
133.   jasonungar07
Eric I have a quiz as well. Last night at the yard there was a stat on diamondvision that said that Furcal was one of 6 dodgers ever (and not sure if thats LA Dodger or all Dodgers) to have 50 extra base hits and 30 steals in a season.

Who are the other 5? (I have no idea)

My guesses would start with Mondesi.

2007-04-27 15:34:31
134.   Jon Weisman
I was wrong about the Dodgers and Betemit. He reaches base twice, plays another flawless game defensively, but gets benched anyway. I'm disappointed.
2007-04-27 15:36:20
135.   Bob Timmermann
For future reference, try "posted the lineup."
2007-04-27 15:38:37
136.   Eric Enders
So Esquire came out with a list of "60 Things Worth Shortening Your Life For."

I have done 6 of the 60. I'm not saying which six. I will say that I have not done #12, which is "Punching Barry Bonds in the face."

2007-04-27 15:38:38
137.   Xeifrank
130. It's Hensley pitching for the Pads tonight.

135. Your nap is over? Or do you have an automated grammar bot? :)
vr, Xei

2007-04-27 15:39:46
138.   gpellamjr
134 It is irritating. It seems like he's being benched because of one strikeout. He has been showing great plate discipline, his swings have been level, and even many of his outs have been hit solidly. I don't see the logic.
2007-04-27 15:42:05
139.   Eric Enders
133 Mondesi would almost certainly have to be one of them, since he was a 30/30 guy.

I'll guess:

Reiser (maybe didn't get the 30 steals, though)
Willie Davis
For my last guess I will go waaay out on a limb and guess... DeShields.

2007-04-27 15:42:37
140.   Eric Enders
137 Maybe he has a NapBot.
2007-04-27 15:42:51
141.   trainwreck
Can we please get rid of either Martinez or Valdez. We really do not need both of them.
2007-04-27 15:44:38
142.   Bob Timmermann
I wasn't napping. I was at the grocery store. But there may be time for another nap.
2007-04-27 15:45:06
143.   Eric Enders
139 I forgot a couple of obvious ones. I am hereby amending my choices to:

W. Davis

I'm also thinking that there are probably more than 6, so maybe it was supposed to be L.A. only. I'll go check the answers now.

2007-04-27 15:45:21
144.   still bevens
Our GM's love for having numerous backup SS's is well documented. Remember how many starts Izturis had at 3B last year? (if the answer is 'too many' - you are correct)
2007-04-27 15:46:19
145.   Xeifrank
142. Loading up on diet pepsi and kitty litter I presume.
vr, Xei
2007-04-27 15:49:05
146.   underdog
137 Ach, thanks. I keep getting the Cla(y) brothers mixed up.

Yeah, I was disappointed to see Betemit benched today - especially since he does better vs. righties, and had a double yesterday. (Hey, his average has nearly triped in two weeks! Um, for what that's worth.) I would have had him in there again and then rested him one of the weekend games. Maybe they're losing patience faster than we are.

2007-04-27 15:55:32
147.   Eric Enders
143 All of those were good except W. Davis, who did both things but never in the same year. Jimmy Sheckard did it in 1901.
2007-04-27 15:57:11
148.   bhsportsguy
138 Prior to tonight, Betemit has started 9 out of 12 games, while he is not given PVS (Proven Veteran Status), he has not been as in and out of the lineup as it may appear.

For most part, the line up has been pretty stable since Furcal came back against the Padrea. And so far, the bench has not played a big role, with Olmedo and Marlon being mostly RH/LH pinch hitters, Clark carrying Luis's water in the late innings or on a day off, Lieberthal starting twice has the backup catcher, the ongoing battle for the utiltiy infield spot between Valdez and Martinez.

2007-04-27 15:58:37
149.   Bob Timmermann
Jimmy Sheckard, one of two NL players to lead the league in homers and steals in the same season!
2007-04-27 15:59:38
150.   Benaiah
Bob, could you explain that joke? I could place the first quote, but the part about "backwards" was over my head. I know explaining jokes isn't very funny, but I am genuinely curious as to what you meant.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-04-27 16:00:00
151.   jasonungar07
Wow, good work Eric. Thanks!
2007-04-27 16:01:19
152.   bhsportsguy
148 Matt Kemp's setback probably helped Andre Ethier more than anyone, he has played pretty much everyday since then, even getting a few starts against LH pithcers.
2007-04-27 16:02:07
153.   Frip
Alec split the family up, not the kid. Maybe if he still lived with her she wouldn't have to get reemed for not playing phone tag well enough.
2007-04-27 16:02:22
154.   Dodgers49
138. 134 It is irritating. It seems like he's being benched because of one strikeout.

Yep. But that one strikeout was also irritating. Primarily because with the bases loaded he didn't even foul tip a pitch right down the middle of the plate with "gopher" written all over it.

2007-04-27 16:02:34
155.   underdog
Speaking of Hensley, yet another reason to not be cocky about this game (not that any of us were):
From Rotowire:
Update: San Diego pitching coach Darren Balsley believes that Hensley has made some important adjustments heading into Saturday's start at Colorado, the San Diego Union-Tribune reports.

Recommendation: Balsley believes that Hensley may have developed some bad habits during his first two regular season starts, when he was bothered by a blister. Balsley thinks that Hensley's side sessions went well this week. Still, unless you're desperate, you might want to bench Hensley on Saturday. Despite the humidor, Coors Field is still a good hitter's park and Hensley has been knocked around in all three of his 2007 starts.

2007-04-27 16:05:18
156.   Jon Weisman
148 - I agree, but if the idea is to get him going, it seems strange to take him out tonight. His strikeout was big, but hardly the biggest faux pas by a Dodger last night.
2007-04-27 16:05:40
157.   underdog
135. Bob Timmermann
For future reference, try "posted the lineup."

Thanks. What about "posted the post"? Does that work? Hah? Or up-lined the line-up...

Sorry, you should realize I've spent all day copy-editing the world's most indecipherable interview, with Alejandro Jodorowsky, literally cutting 60% of it out because it made little or no sense or the transcriber couldn't translate it. Anyway, I think Jodorowsky has affected my brain.

2007-04-27 16:14:50
158.   Benaiah
136 - I only got 5. I doubt I will get above 10 in my life, half of them sound unappealing.
2007-04-27 16:18:19
159.   chazmac138
His strikeout was big, but hardly the biggest faux pas by a Dodger last night.

That dubious honor once again goes to Luis "rally killing" Goonzalez.

2007-04-27 16:20:47
160.   Benaiah
153 - It takes two to tango, we don't know who ended that marriage. If you were referring to the fact that he lives on the opposite coast, again, real life is not as easy as our ideals would like it to be. Apparently he bought her a cell phone expressly to keep in touch, and her not answering said phone was what ticked him off.

I am upset that I am even talking about this. People get angry. I have said some really terrible things to people that I care about when I was seeing red (one time I barricaded the apartment door with a couch to keep my friends outside after I told them they were never welcome in my house again). Being very angry is like temporary insanity, you should be held accountable for your actions, but you (me) probably can't believe what you (me) did after the fact.

2007-04-27 16:24:50
161.   Bob Timmermann
OK, you talked about a "breech of privacy" for Alec Baldwin. But "breech" means "backwards" (like a breech delivery) or "from the rear" (like a breech loading rifle). But you wanted "breach" which refers to a legal transgression or in the case of Henry V, a hole of some kind.
2007-04-27 16:26:53
162.   imperabo
I won't complain about Gonzo as long as his OPS stays above 800. He's actually looking like a decent signing, even with the comical defense.

I would normally never judge a player based on one atbat, but that strikeout by Betemit really shook my confidence in him. It's similar to Pierre where you think if can't do THAT what CAN he do? If Betemit couldn't even make contact with that pitch in that situation what CAN he do? OPS 487 apparently.

2007-04-27 16:26:58
163.   Bob Timmermann
I have now made my attempted joke, almost, but not quite, the least funny joke ever attempted.
2007-04-27 16:29:08
164.   Marty
Betemit is being used as the escape goat.
2007-04-27 16:31:48
165.   imperabo
Yeah that was pretty Repozian is its obscurity Bob. I did learn something though. I always thought it was a breach loading rifle, with breach meaning something like a gap in the barell.
2007-04-27 16:33:18
166.   jasonungar07
2007-04-27 16:34:29
167.   Humma Kavula
I have the yankee-red sox game on in the background... not really paying attention... until kay utters one of my very favorite phrases in the english language:

"...past a diving Jeter..."

Love it!

2007-04-27 16:36:57
168.   Benaiah
161 - Sigh. I am a terrible speller. I didn't start using "then" and "than" correctly until college. Breech and Breach are just too obscure for me to find out about without embarrassment. I don't think it was your joke that was unfunny, it was simply to "Dennis Miller" for my "Gallagher" intellect.
2007-04-27 16:37:12
169.   bhsportsguy
Is it possible that Grady wanted to give Valdez another shot at 3B just to see if he can play it because they have a couple of roster moves coming up with Kemp, Brazoban and Kuo.

I know sometimes folks love to think that moves are reactionary but most times I think managers like Grady have already decided that tomorrow Valdeez is going to play pretty much regardless what Betemit did the night before.

2007-04-27 16:37:39
170.   Faramond
I am really annoyed at Betemit. I'm also really really annoyed at the Dodgers for not playing Betemit.

I can be both, right?

2007-04-27 16:38:35
171.   Jon Weisman
169 - It's possible, I guess.
2007-04-27 16:38:47
172.   Chiron Brown
It was posted at Humbug but I haven't seen it mentioned here today so I'll mention it.

In the Israel Baseball League draft the Modi'in Miracle used their last pick to select Sandy Koufax. I would think the Dodgers are due some compensation. At least a bottle of Arack and a falafel.

2007-04-27 16:39:31
173.   Bob Timmermann
You've always struck me as more Carrot Top than Gallagher.
2007-04-27 16:42:57
174.   Benaiah
173 - So I am a prop comedian, but I don't use watermelons... I'll take it!
2007-04-27 16:43:09
175.   Eric Enders
172 I believe Jon posted that as well.

But I will use the opportunity to ask: In the very unlikely event that Sandy wanted to play, would he be allowed to? Do the Dodgers still hold his rights? Assuming the Israeli league has no working agreement with MLB, does that mean Koufax would be banned from baseball if he did play with them?

I realize this is hypothetical in the extreme, I was just wondering.

2007-04-27 16:45:31
176.   Humma Kavula
175 Let's keep going. He pitches for the Israeli League. He gets banned from baseball.

Does his plaque get removed from the Hall of Fame?

2007-04-27 16:47:09
177.   Curtis Lowe
175,176- Does he get an Asterisk?
2007-04-27 16:47:36
178.   bhsportsguy
166 The writer is typical of the kind who loves to point out potential flaws with the caveat of "if they win, I will be the first to say I was wrong."

But then is really proud to say he was right (which lets face it, depending on your definition of success, he can say that regarding every result save one).

Frankly, Russell Martin was as responsible for losing as many games during this time as anyone on the team. Broxton gave up some untimely hits. And while the pitching wasn't awful, it wasn't as good as it was during the their hot streaks.

I am not saying that all the moves have been great but to just believe that all the ills of the team would be solved by playing all the kids is not a fair analysis either but then he is entitled to his opinion as I am entitled to mine.

2007-04-27 16:47:38
179.   Bob Timmermann
I believe that the Seitz decision about Messersmith and McNally means that Sandy Koufax is a free agent.
2007-04-27 16:54:47
180.   Eric Enders
178 "Frankly, Russell Martin was as responsible for losing as many games during this time as anyone on the team. Broxton gave up some untimely hits."

I would rather strenuously disagree with the above statement about Martin, a few throwing errors notwithstanding. He did other things to make up for his mistakes.

2007-04-27 16:58:38
181.   Dodgers49
>>> Although no move is imminent, inching up a notch in the order might be Betemit's last chance before the Dodgers dip into triple A for top third-base prospect Andy LaRoche, who has overcome a slow start and is batting .274 with three home runs. <<<

2007-04-27 17:01:13
182.   Curtis Lowe
181- If LaRoche could come up and hit .274 and 3 homeruns every month I would be a happy camper.
2007-04-27 17:01:28
183.   underdog
177 Does he hit from right to left?
2007-04-27 17:02:44
184.   Chiron Brown
Tony Kornheiser said that a few years ago at spring training, Koufax was clocked in the mid 80's.
2007-04-27 17:06:19
185.   Curtis Lowe
183- Should I be embarrassed that I don't know what that means?

Cuz I am.

2007-04-27 17:06:20
186.   Bob Timmermann
Sandy Koufax actually batted right-handed despite pitching left-handed.

He was caught stealing once.

It was an attempted steal of home.

2007-04-27 17:08:27
187.   Bluebleeder87

I'm 100% with Jon on that one.

2007-04-27 17:12:49
188.   Bob Timmermann
Newspaper reports from 1961 blamed the caught stealing at home on Juan Pierre missing a sign.
2007-04-27 17:13:08
189.   overkill94
184 is a reference to the fact that you read Hebrew from right to left...I think
2007-04-27 17:13:34
190.   Curtis Lowe
188- What an astro-projecting nancy!
2007-04-27 17:25:35
191.   gpellamjr
178 I feel differently. The team is going to struggle as it is. It would struggle if we put all the kids with great potential in the lineup every day. I would rather see the kids struggle, with their great upside, than see Juan Pierre and Luis Gonzalez knowing that they are not capable of anything better than mediocrity.
2007-04-27 17:33:33
192.   trainwreck
Oh please be true. I have been asking for this since last year.
2007-04-27 17:51:48
193.   Benaiah
192 - I hope this isn't the end of Betemit as an everyday player. His bat still has too much potential to rot on the bench. He could be Jeff Kent's replacement if Tony Abreu doesn't work out.
2007-04-27 17:53:37
194.   Jon Weisman
I can't shake the feeling that if LaRoche were promoted now, he would need a lot of patience. And of course he's young, but then, so is Betemit.

I guess LaRoche has the higher ceiling, but I just don't feel as strong a vibe with him as I do with some other prospects. Maybe when he gets here, that'll change.

New post up top.

2007-04-27 17:54:17
195.   underdog
189 Yep, that was the attempted joke, anyway. Why is this joke different than all other jokes? Er, never mind.

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