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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
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7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
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Part-Time Love
2007-06-20 15:19
by Jon Weisman

Matt Kemp, who has an OPS of .964 this season, who has an OPS of .980 since his June return to the Dodgers, who is 7 for 13 with a walk and a home run in his last four starts, rides the pine for the second day in a row.

* * *

Today's 4:07 p.m. game:


Retro Gameday

Comments (314)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-06-20 15:26:41
1.   bhsportsguy
No comment.
2007-06-20 15:28:36
2.   ToyCannon
It's only been two days, right BH:)
2007-06-20 15:31:12
3.   Bob Timmermann
Yeah, but what have you done for me LATELY!
2007-06-20 15:33:34
4.   Eric Stephen
Early prediction for Thursday's lineup:

SS Furcal
CF Pierre
DH Nomar
2B Kent
LF Gonzo
C Martin
RF Kemp
1B Loney
3B Betemit

2007-06-20 15:34:02
5.   Jon Weisman
Hey, I know it's only two days. I just think he should play.
2007-06-20 15:35:34
6.   ToyCannon
As do we all.
2007-06-20 15:38:47
7.   ssjames
For those unlikely to return to the last thread, the thing the following players have in common is that they all have lower a VORP than Nomar does currently. Admittedly it takes in account position, but that is really an indictment of our current firstbaseman.

Hong-chih Kuo
James Loney
Randy Wolf
Jason Schmidt
Juan Pierre
Andy Laroche
Rudy Seanez
Mike Lieberthal
Brett Tomko
Wilson Valdez
Mark Hendrickson

Just for point of reference, Tomko, Hendrickson and Seanez are all hitless on the year so far.

2007-06-20 15:39:00
8.   Humma Kavula
4 Actually all things considered -- meaning that both Pierre and Nomar will likely play -- that's not a bad lineup.
2007-06-20 15:40:30
9.   Bluebleeder87
Bob, it's pretty funny how Iwamura got the triple a day late. Maybe Byrnes will get his triple tomorrow.
2007-06-20 15:41:39
10.   still bevens
Ethier has a better OBP against Halladay.

He's 0-1, with a BB and HBP for a .667 OBP.

Kemp is a meager 2-1 with a .500 OBP.

See, Grady looks at these things. Ethier is clearly the hot hand here.

2007-06-20 15:45:33
11.   blue22
10 - Marlon Anderson is 4-11 with a couple homeruns against Halladay.

Clearly, Grady does not look at these things.

2007-06-20 15:45:39
12.   bhsportsguy
Of these 3 teams, who has the best record when leading after 8 innings:


One interesting fact, the Padres have lost 8 games when they have led after 6 innings.

2007-06-20 15:47:14
13.   Pedro Astacio
Is this a trick question?
2007-06-20 15:47:20
14.   blue22
11 - There should've been a winky smiley face after that comment, lest I be guilty of violating TYFN #7.
2007-06-20 15:48:26
15.   ToyCannon
It has to be the Reds or you wouldn't have thrown them in because they would be the least obvious choice.
2007-06-20 15:49:07
16.   regfairfield
7 I don't know where you're getting that from, but only Martinez and Clark are below him amongst hitters. Brazoban, Tomko, and Schmidt are behind him amongst pitchers.
2007-06-20 15:51:32
17.   blue22
12 - A quick check of Reds closer David Weathers' two blown saves on the year found that they were both in the 8th inning.

I'm going with Cincy.

2007-06-20 15:56:09
18.   bhsportsguy
17 You are correct, Cincy is 25-0 when they lead after 8.

The Dodgers have lost once and the Padres twice when they they have led after 8 innings.

I think the key number to look at that stat is not how many losses you have but how many times are you ahead after 8 or 6 or whatever inning you have to choose. The Reds are 25-0 when they lead after 8 through today but that means they have either been tied (a few times) or the vast majority behind after 8 and that's a hard way to compete.

2007-06-20 15:56:31
19.   ssjames
16 That is just based on upon their stats as hitters from BP. It doesn't take into account their pitching stats. At least that is what it told me.
2007-06-20 15:59:20
20.   regfairfield
19 I think you misread it then, because Nomar is one of our few players that is below replacement level.
2007-06-20 16:02:45
21.   Jon Weisman
Lee Gronkiewicz, we hardly knew ye.

2007-06-20 16:04:23
22.   Bob Timmermann
John Gibbons said he was worried about blowing out his bullpen.

Because this Halladay guy just can't get anybody out.

2007-06-20 16:08:49
23.   blue22
Yes, Hendrickson (with his .063 OPS) and Tomko (.077 OPS) have higher offensive VORPs than Nomar.

Tomko: -1.7
Hendy: -1.8
Nomar: -2.2

But I'm pretty sure that's not the intended use of this stat.

2007-06-20 16:10:30
24.   Bluebleeder87
Nice to see Nomar with a pulse early in this road trip.
2007-06-20 16:13:14
25.   blue22
24 - No one's ever doubted the man's ability to hit singles. He can single with the best of 'em!
2007-06-20 16:13:16
26.   scareduck
7, 23 - it's not really fair to compare VORP across positions.
2007-06-20 16:13:38
27.   MC Safety
180,182 from the last thread- it is nice to hear good things about guys you used to play with. it sucked seeing burroughs go to the pads, but it was still cool see him play in the bigs. ill never forget seeing him hit his only homer that year against i believe nomo at dodger stadium, that was kinda cool. ah well we got tony gwynn and chase utley! and to this day there still is something that makes me give milton the benefit of the doubt. it might have to do with some funny second hand kent stories from houston ive heard via LB state grad and former astro loogy mike gallo.
2007-06-20 16:14:24
28.   blue22
26 - Hence my disclaimer.
2007-06-20 16:14:55
29.   Humma Kavula
26 I thought that was the point -- that it corrects for position, which is why Martin has a higher VORP than Gonzalez.

You know more about it than I do, though, so correct me.

2007-06-20 16:16:59
30.   ssjames
29 I believe I know what he is trying to say, which is that it is not a good use of VORP to compare the hitting of pitchers to position players, but it just struck me as funny.
2007-06-20 16:18:09
31.   scooplew
I, too, do not understand why Kemp sits while The Tomato starts tonight. I would have understood it if Little went lefty-right and started Anderson. Is Loney still unable to play? I hope Saenz proves me wrong.
2007-06-20 16:18:14
32.   Jon Weisman
26 - That doesn't make sense. I agree with 29.

The thing to keep in mind with VORP, though, is that it is effectively a counting stat, affected by playing time.

2007-06-20 16:18:14
33.   Bluebleeder87

from the last thread - a friend of mine made it for the Diablos de Mexico but that doesn't count, i also had 2 freinds make it as high as A ball & double AA.

2007-06-20 16:18:58
34.   Xeifrank
Guo is definitely a strike-out / fly ball pitcher. vr, Xei

Via GuoMania:
Guo only has 20 innings pitched under his belt so far this year as opposed to 82 from Halladay. Guo gets the edge in ERA and Field Independent ERA, part of this is due to Hallday facing tougher hitters in the American League. Guo is more of a fly ball, strike out pitcher, with a GB/FB/LD line of 29/48/23. Halladay, will get his fair share of strike outs, but he relies more on his control. Both pitchers have home run rates well below (stingy on giving up HRs) league average. Guo has yet to give up a home run in 20 innings thus far. While Guo tends to be a fly ball pitcher, Halladay induces alot more groundballs with a GB/FB/LD line of 56/26/18. Both pitchers have a similiar BABIP allowed. Guo is at .315 and Halladay having a nearly identical mark of .313. Halladay has been slightly more unlucky when it comes to stranding runners on base. Guo has a LOB% of 71.4% and Halladay of 64.4%. This should be a close and low scoring game, a game that the Blue Jays probably feel they should win. If Guo is on, the Jays could be in for a big surprise.

2007-06-20 16:20:32
35.   bhsportsguy
How did Kuo/Guo looK? Good movement on his pitches?
2007-06-20 16:22:10
36.   MC Safety
33- nice. where do the diablos play?
2007-06-20 16:22:35
37.   Xeifrank
DodgerSims, which is on a roll of late, gives the Dodgers a pre-game win probability of 52.3%. The simulator was a perfect 4 for 4 yesterday and is 2 for 2 so far today. Of course this post will not jinx that. :)
vr, Xei
2007-06-20 16:22:52
38.   Bluebleeder87
nice inning by K/Guo although i wouldn't throw to many breaking balls to Glous i'd rather go with high heat.
2007-06-20 16:23:22
39.   Jon Weisman
4 2/3 shutout innings would knock Kuo's ERA below 3.00. Will we see it?
2007-06-20 16:23:54
40.   Eric Stephen
Today marks the second day in a row that I have forgotten to set my DVR at home to record the Dodger game. Thus, I must listen to Rick Monday!
2007-06-20 16:25:24
41.   Jon Weisman
Kuo's ERA since his first appearance of the season is 2.18.
2007-06-20 16:25:59
42.   bhsportsguy
40 I am in the minority but I like Jerry Reuss so much, it makes listening to Monday a pleasant experience.
2007-06-20 16:26:17
43.   Eric Enders
40 Yeah, that always stinks. After learning the hard way, I've gotten into the habit of setting a week's worth of games at once, so I only have to remember once a week.
2007-06-20 16:27:53
44.   Eric Stephen
42 I do like Reuss quite a bit as well. Thanks for the silver lining.
2007-06-20 16:28:24
45.   Greg Brock
I love watching Hallady pitch. Just not against us. And we get quality appendectomy talk, which fires me up.

I just babysat my nephew for five hours. You people that willingly had children are insane. I need a nap.

2007-06-20 16:28:54
46.   Bluebleeder87

if i remember correctly Mexico city, i swear i'd put Marcos arm with Mondesis, Marco played with me in the Sandy Koufax league then moved back to mexico, great player.

2007-06-20 16:28:59
47.   Jon Weisman
43 - I just set up a Wish List on TiVo for the Dodgers. It gets every game and I haven't had to program it since 2004.
2007-06-20 16:29:09
48.   Marty
42 Actually I think you are in the majority. I don't like him and keep wondering what I'm missing, because it seemed everyone did like him.
2007-06-20 16:32:52
49.   still bevens
47 Thats where Tivo edges the free DVR you get from the cable co. All games show up as 'MLB BASEBALL' and you can't really program anything with any ease whatsoever. You have to do it on a day to day basis. I guess you get what you pay for.
2007-06-20 16:33:11
50.   bhsportsguy
48 I think it is more people don't like Rick Monday so when he's with Reuss, he's talking a lot more.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-06-20 16:33:27
51.   MC Safety
46- ive done quite a bit of traveling around those parts.

btw, im i the only one completely confused with grady's logic regarding our DH today. i would like to know the last time saenz faced halladay? have those splits expired by now?

2007-06-20 16:34:15
52.   Marty
Is Kuo not a 95 mph pitcher anymore? His fastball seems to be at 89-91.
2007-06-20 16:34:47
53.   Humma Kavula
2007-06-20 16:34:48
54.   Andrew Shimmin
I agree with Psycho. This country is built on opportunity and proof.

Whatever that means.

2007-06-20 16:35:08
55.   Eric Enders
48 Alas, I have the cut-rate DVR box proffered by my cable company, which only lets you set a week at a time.

The Diablos Rojos play in Mexico City. They are Mexico's most storied franchise; Hall of Famers Willie Wells and Ray Dandridge, among others, played for them.

2007-06-20 16:35:14
56.   Humma Kavula
39 Jinx!
2007-06-20 16:35:45
57.   Jon Weisman
55 - No season passes?
2007-06-20 16:36:23
58.   Jon Weisman
56 - Now he needs seven innings of one-run ball to do it.
2007-06-20 16:36:36
59.   xaphor
54. Proof = Alcohol ?
2007-06-20 16:36:58
60.   MMSMikey
wow nomar get off the bag a little more.
2007-06-20 16:37:00
61.   Humma Kavula
58 Haven't you learned your lesson?! :-)
2007-06-20 16:37:02
62.   jtrichey
That is the second time this year where I noticed that Nomar does not come off the bag to field his freaking position. That ball rolled over the dirt section of the cutout, and a diving Nomar still couldn't reach it because he was still standing on 1st as the pitch was thrown. Anyone else seeing this?
2007-06-20 16:37:33
63.   Marty
57 No, no season passes. Also, no "intelligence" like Tivo. The good news though, is my DVR will never think I'm gay.
2007-06-20 16:37:51
64.   Eric Enders
57 You can set it to record every instance of a particular program; unfortuntely, all baseball games are titled "MLB Baseball," so it would end up recording 15 games a day.
2007-06-20 16:38:24
65.   Humma Kavula
I didn't hear what Lyons said, but I kind of get it:

This country gives you opportunity. Then you have to prove that you can live up to what's expected of you.

Opportunity and proof.

I don't know if I agree with him, but I do kinda get what he's saying.

2007-06-20 16:38:32
66.   still bevens
62 Rick Monday did.
2007-06-20 16:39:20
67.   Bob Timmermann
I believe that with the Scientific Atlanta brand DVRs, you could set it up to record baseball games, but it would record EVERY baseball game because they are listed as "MLB Baseball" regardless of who is playing.
2007-06-20 16:39:27
68.   MMSMikey
2007-06-20 16:39:40
69.   Eric Enders
The Toronto announcers appear to have an even bigger mancrush on Martin than we do.
2007-06-20 16:39:45
70.   Jon Weisman
61 - Now maybe I won't get so much grief over rule 9.
2007-06-20 16:39:58
71.   MC Safety
thats awesome i always wondered if kuo was fluent!! they held zaun at 3rd with gonzo out there!! bahhahahahah!! lol
2007-06-20 16:40:34
72.   Humma Kavula
Rule 9 never bothered me. I find it... interesting.
2007-06-20 16:41:46
73.   Marty
Kuo seems to be throwing harder now.
2007-06-20 16:42:21
74.   bhsportsguy
One thing I have noticed recently is that teams attack our staff early in the count.

Again, because we have a staff that does strike out batters, I think the plan is to attack early to avoid giving them the chance to fan you.

This plan doesn't work if you get a lot of ground balls like Lowe and Penny.

2007-06-20 16:42:51
75.   still bevens
I think if Kuo cant go a fair amount of innings without keeping this game competitive were gonna have to throw Tomko out there for as long as humanly possible because of the pitch count scenario tomorrow.
2007-06-20 16:42:52
76.   xaphor
64. My box can be told to record all instances on a specified channel which cuts down on the chaff.
2007-06-20 16:43:37
77.   Bob Timmermann
Buddy's start so far in Atlanta:
Homer by Drew
Double by Pedroia

Big Papi facing Buddy

2007-06-20 16:43:55
78.   Humma Kavula
ugh.... rios.
2007-06-20 16:44:44
79.   Greg Brock
Effectively wild has been replaced by wild and lit up.
2007-06-20 16:44:50
80.   MC Safety
they sure are living up to the " lefty killer " scouting report.
2007-06-20 16:44:51
81.   Bob Timmermann
I will be able to flip over to the action in Omaha once I get home.
2007-06-20 16:45:09
82.   Rob M
this is getting ugly.
2007-06-20 16:45:35
83.   Bluebleeder87
i'm questioning the pitch selection there going with but maybe i'm wrong.
2007-06-20 16:45:48
84.   Andrew Shimmin
65- He was talking about why McGwire should be in the HOF. But the "built on opportunity," cliche was too strong to ignore, so the country had to be built on that, plus the right to not be judged for anything that can't be proven.
2007-06-20 16:46:03
85.   scareduck
32 - VORP only measures value relative to an individual position. It doesn't try to adjust across the field. I base my comment here on this definition here

and in particular, the comment that

"We define a replacement level player as one who hits as far below the league positional average as the league backups do relative to league average, who plays average defense for the position, and is a breakeven base-stealer and baserunner."

2007-06-20 16:46:15
86.   Jon Weisman
It didn't occur to me to post what it would take to get Kuo's ERA above 5.00.
2007-06-20 16:46:21
87.   Eric Enders
Well, I'm watching the game on a short delay, so the score is still 0-0. I take it I'm in for some carnage in a moment.
2007-06-20 16:46:27
88.   MC Safety
77-bizarre, drew homers, pedroia doubles and papi whiffs.
2007-06-20 16:46:46
89.   Bluebleeder87
you guys think he's throwing to many breaking balls? i feel he is.
2007-06-20 16:46:52
90.   bhsportsguy
80 Just because Penny and Lowe have given up 3 runs in 23 2/3 innings against them, I'm not counting Schmidt.
2007-06-20 16:48:09
91.   bhsportsguy
Hopefully, he can extend his pitching prowness beyond just the Mets.
2007-06-20 16:48:31
92.   Andrew Shimmin
84 continued- "The right to not be judged for anything that can't be proven," proved too lengthy to make the one liner zing, so he abbreviated it to "proof." Which doesn't make a lot of sense, but packs more punch.
2007-06-20 16:49:04
93.   Monterey Chris
It's a bad inning when Tomko warming up looks like a good idea.
2007-06-20 16:50:25
94.   Gen3Blue
As Matt Kemp rides the pine am I supposed to watch this? I guess this is where faith must enter, although I hate to see how Doc can pitch with this kind of lead.
2007-06-20 16:50:50
95.   Greg Brock
92 In a court of law. We can all slap whatever opinions on anybody we'd like outside of it.


2007-06-20 16:51:44
96.   Bob Timmermann
Ramirez doubles in Pedroia, but then Buddy bears down to strike out Youkilis.

The tension is high in Atlanta.

2007-06-20 16:52:01
97.   scareduck
And it's still just the 2nd inning. Wow.
2007-06-20 16:52:13
98.   Humma Kavula
85 Again, you know better than I do... but...

I read that as saying an individual player's VORP is corrected based on the position he plays. That way, you can see who is more valuable to one's team. Russell Martin is 18 runs better than a replacement catcher; Luis Gonzalez is 14 runs better than a replacement left fielder; therefore, Martin provides more value to his team. Why is that wrong?

I guess my question is really this: if you can't compare VORP across positions, why do we need VORP? Why not simply OPS/EQA/whatever?

2007-06-20 16:52:15
99.   Bluebleeder87
even if Guo gets out of this inning i'll be suprised if he goes 5 innings with all those pitches thrown already.
2007-06-20 16:52:38
100.   Eric Stephen
63 I'd like to think that was a reference to Weird Al's "Couch Potato", his parody of Eminem's "Lose Yourself". Bravo.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-06-20 16:53:52
101.   Andrew Shimmin
95- How unsurprisingly un-American of you.

I'm scheduled to have jury duty next week, so I'm trying to get in the grove. Actually, with all the lawyers around these parts, does anybody have a suggestion of which book, if they saw it sitting on a jurors lap, would get the potential juror booted during voir dire? Or does it not work that way? I'm not willing to lie, or have nasty words shaved into my hair, but most of everything else is negotiable.

2007-06-20 16:54:17
102.   Bob Timmermann
Coco Crisp does not love the Buddy Carlyle Story.

3-run homer and the Red Sox are up 5-0.

2007-06-20 16:54:32
103.   Humma Kavula
2007-06-20 16:54:37
104.   natepurcell
that sucks alot.
2007-06-20 16:54:38
105.   Bluebleeder87
grand slam on a breaking ball
2007-06-20 16:54:43
106.   Gagne55
Thats it for Kuo.
2007-06-20 16:54:50
107.   MC Safety
good lord.
2007-06-20 16:54:52
108.   scareduck
98 - My understanding is that Martin provides 14 runs more than a replacement catcher, not than a replacement right fielder.

Gameday says Guo is gone.

2007-06-20 16:55:02
109.   still bevens
Well this isnt interesting anymore.
2007-06-20 16:55:12
110.   Eric Stephen
Looks like Tomko will get a "take one for the team" appearance tonight.
2007-06-20 16:55:24
111.   Andrew Shimmin
All pitchers have bad days. Might be time to put Kuo out of his misery, though. There isn't always a lesson to be learned from pain.
2007-06-20 16:55:34
112.   Gagne55
I suppose its time to turn off the TV. It is over.
2007-06-20 16:55:36
113.   scareduck
They may have to pause the game to make callups from Las Vegas to complete this game.
2007-06-20 16:55:42
114.   Jon Weisman
2007-06-20 16:55:51
115.   MMSMikey
i think we will see lurch today.
2007-06-20 16:55:53
116.   Greg Brock
Nice outing.
2007-06-20 16:56:08
117.   Jon Weisman
112 - It's never over.
2007-06-20 16:56:45
118.   scooplew
Our last three losses have been by a total of 15 runs. Looks like we are settling into that mode. Tonight is a disaster.
2007-06-20 16:56:55
119.   trainwreck
Well maybe Kemp will get a few at bats in this game after all.
2007-06-20 16:56:59
120.   Eric Stephen
And Kuo's ERA balloons to a nearly-devilish 6.65
2007-06-20 16:57:07
121.   Rob M
Damn. That was brutal for poor Kuo. And for us.
2007-06-20 16:57:27
122.   Bluebleeder87
maybe Russell Martin knew Guo could only throw the breaking ball for strikes today, or maybe i'm trying to paint a pretty picture on how bad Guo stunk today, wow.
2007-06-20 16:57:39
123.   Marty
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
2007-06-20 16:58:03
124.   scareduck
98 - and to answer your question, it provides a way to measure position-adjusted offensive performance. Position *un*adjusted performance is another thing.
2007-06-20 16:58:07
125.   Gagne55
Kuo's era went from 3.6 to 6.6


2007-06-20 16:58:15
126.   Eric Stephen
Sometimes you're the hammer. Sometimes you're the nail.
2007-06-20 16:58:16
127.   bhsportsguy
And you wonder why the AL teams have the advantage with their DH. Our DH, no matter who he is, is someone who is not used to routine.

Their DH, who does nothing else but hit 4-5 times again, goes 2-2 with a double and a grand slam.

2007-06-20 16:58:39
128.   natepurcell

lol uhh..

2007-06-20 16:58:48
129.   bhsportsguy
Kuo threw 43 pitches that inning.
2007-06-20 16:59:35
130.   natepurcell

well, we also dont have a DH who is most likely a HOFer and 3hr from 500.

but yea, i understand your point.

2007-06-20 16:59:52
131.   blue22
117 - This is true.

Probably a good idea to hold 'em from here on out though.

2007-06-20 17:00:09
132.   bhsportsguy
And the phone just rang in Las Vegas, any pitcher that has a passport, please report to the airport.
2007-06-20 17:00:11
133.   MC Safety
112,123- thats refreshing.
2007-06-20 17:00:13
134.   scareduck
118 - Our last three losses have been by a total of 15 runs.

But since this is Canada, that's only four metric runs.

2007-06-20 17:01:00
135.   Bluebleeder87
Their DH, who does nothing else but hit 4-5 times again, goes 2-2 with a double and a grand slam.

he also provides chuckles when he runs

2007-06-20 17:01:48
136.   trainwreck
Woo hoo! A hit for Ethier.
2007-06-20 17:02:07
137.   CanuckDodger
That was like watching Edwin Jackson getting lit up. The "stuff" was good enough that you wouldn't think batters could be just killing everything they saw. Location was the problem. Kuo couldn't keep the ball down: fastballs were all belt high, and breaking balls just hung in the air.
2007-06-20 17:02:14
138.   Andrew Shimmin
132- If Kuo loses his job over one start, there's going to be big trouble.
2007-06-20 17:02:16
139.   Greg Brock
Kudos to Steiner and Lyons for using every cliche possible to tell me that the game isn't over.

I get it, guys.

2007-06-20 17:02:16
140.   Gagne55
Ok, it isn't over yet. The Dodgers seem to have a Septmeber game in Coors every year that they come back after something like this. Still, I'd pull Martin in the bottom of this inning if the Dodgers don't get at least a couple runs.
2007-06-20 17:02:29
141.   Eric Stephen
Sometimes in basketball, announcers refer to a game being a 2-possession game. I look at this as merely a 2-slam deficit. We have Halladay & the Jays right where we want them.
2007-06-20 17:02:34
142.   MMSMikey
furcal has gone back to having no clue at the plate.
2007-06-20 17:03:06
143.   Jim Hitchcock
Yikes! What a difference a Kuo makes.
2007-06-20 17:03:40
144.   scooplew
Anybody know when was the last time we rallied from eight or more runs down to win a game? Bob?
2007-06-20 17:03:45
145.   bhsportsguy
138 My point is that we will now need another arm in the bullpen not to replace Kuo.
2007-06-20 17:05:31
146.   D4P
Nomar already got his single. Why's he still in there...?
2007-06-20 17:05:50
147.   Humma Kavula
138 So who is going to organize the care package for Loney if he's the one that draws the short straw?
2007-06-20 17:06:49
148.   scooplew
Nomar still has fewer homers than the St. Louis Cardinals' announcers' booth.
2007-06-20 17:07:13
149.   natepurcell
i just yelled at someone over at TJ's blog. oops.
2007-06-20 17:07:52
150.   Gagne55
141 Score a touchdown and a two point conversion. Er... wrong sport.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-06-20 17:08:18
151.   Humma Kavula
oh for pete's sake.
2007-06-20 17:08:26
152.   trainwreck
Buddy Carlyle is having his problems too.
2007-06-20 17:08:45
153.   Gagne55
Thats not how you mop-up, Tomko.
2007-06-20 17:08:54
154.   trainwreck
At least Tomko is still the same pitcher.
2007-06-20 17:09:58
155.   Gagne55
This could be one of those games where a position player comes in to pitch.
2007-06-20 17:10:00
156.   natepurcell
i dont like canada.
2007-06-20 17:10:22
157.   Greg Brock
Good God. Put an L screen out there.
2007-06-20 17:10:26
158.   MMSMikey
ol' brett taking his licks tonight.
2007-06-20 17:10:43
159.   MC Safety
holy cow, bombko has just been brought to a whole differant light. zaun and stairs back to back BOMBS.
2007-06-20 17:11:15
160.   MMSMikey
whose the dodger position player that would come in and pitch? marlon anderson?
2007-06-20 17:11:15
161.   xaphor
155. Loney?
2007-06-20 17:11:18
162.   scareduck
Bombko wants to see if he can make a major league record by giving up five straight homers.

The game isn't over, true. We have yet to see how far down the Dodgers will be when the game is over.

2007-06-20 17:11:35
163.   fanerman
Oh my goodness!

I just remembered the Dodger game was on, so I hurriedly went to turn on the TV, only to hear the TV say, and it's now "10-0" while seeing a Blue Jay round the bases. Talk about getting deflated.

2007-06-20 17:11:53
164.   Chiron Brown
Mercy rule, please.
2007-06-20 17:12:02
165.   scareduck
Ah, drat. An out.
2007-06-20 17:12:27
166.   scooplew
What is the over/under on Blue Jay runs at this point? 18?
2007-06-20 17:12:53
167.   FirstMohican
I want to see Olmedo's windup. Let him pitch.
2007-06-20 17:12:55
168.   natepurcell
i actually would love to see loney go in and pitch. that would be awesome.

although knowing our luck, troy glaus will line one off his skull.

2007-06-20 17:14:42
169.   Bob Timmermann
Since 1957, the Dodgers have not overcome a deficit greater than six runs to win a game.

They have blown leads of 8 and 10 runs in that same period.

2007-06-20 17:15:10
170.   Greg Brock
I'm really looking forward to seeing 1408.

I never thought they'd make a movie about Brett Tomko's ERA.

2007-06-20 17:15:45
171.   MMSMikey
thats a start!
2007-06-20 17:16:15
172.   bhsportsguy
155 The last time a position player pitched was June 25, 2004 when Robin Ventura pitched an inning against the Angels. They lost 13-0.
2007-06-20 17:16:23
173.   Jim Hitchcock
O.K. We got 'em right where we want 'em.
2007-06-20 17:17:20
174.   MC Safety
how did gonzo manage to pull that pitch?
2007-06-20 17:17:40
175.   JT Dutch
... Prior to this game -- the Dodgers have been 11-9 in blowouts; scoring 116 runs and allowing 90.
2007-06-20 17:17:47
176.   Gagne55
161 Most likely Loney. When he was drafted, many teams projected him as a pitcher. Furcal has a cannon for an arm.
2007-06-20 17:17:50
177.   scooplew
169 Bob, you are awesome! Hard to believe that they have never come back, in at least half a century, from a deficit of more than six runs.
2007-06-20 17:17:52
178.   Marty
Well, I managed to catch up on John from Cincinatti. I'm liking it.
2007-06-20 17:18:51
179.   Curtis Lowe
Im liking it Marty.
2007-06-20 17:18:57
180.   overkill94
123 Hell no!
2007-06-20 17:19:19
181.   Jim Hitchcock
Or not.
2007-06-20 17:19:53
182.   Eric Enders
I would love to see Loney pitch, too. Unfortunately, his knee injury probably prevents that. Also, managers generally like to keep their jobs, which means when it comes time to send a position player in to pitch, it's never a superstar or prized prospect. It's always the Marlon Anderson or Brady Clark types.

After the game, perhaps Kevin Kennedy will tell us all about why you don't send in a superstar position player in to pitch.

Heck, if Loney's knee is still bothering him, I wouldn't mind seeing Matt Kemp try to blow it by people.

2007-06-20 17:20:08
183.   scooplew
172 Earlier, on June 3, 1989, Jeff Hamilton, primarily a third baseman, came in to pitch for the Dodgers and was the losing pitcher in a game in Houston that went 22 innings. Remarkably, Orel Hershiser pitched seven innings of shutout relief in that game:

2007-06-20 17:20:39
184.   Gagne55
The nice thing about playin on the road, is that games like this only require 24 outs to be mopped up instead of 27. Assuming no miracle occurs.
2007-06-20 17:21:47
185.   Jim Hitchcock

Didn't Hamilton get a couple of strikeouts in that game?

2007-06-20 17:21:50
186.   Gen3Blue
Well I think i'm about to go get a film, as many people in Toronto did last night.
With the caveats following I will make this comment. First the D's could still make it and I am not totally down on Coletti, who has his points. That said--
The D's made two disastrous moves this year, which failed for very differet reasons.
A) They signed a player who was not what they thought(Pierre). I clearly remember Colletti or Grits saying "he gets on base a lot.This implies no understanding of modern statistics.
B) They wasted 47 mil on Schmidt. At this point signing any ball player and especially a pitcher for much money is the same as a huge crapshoot, or lottery.

Perhaps one of these was avoidable, but mostly this kind of bad luck permeates baseball.

2007-06-20 17:24:14
187.   Bob Timmermann
I think playing in Dodger Stadium for much of those 50 years helps to keep the Dodgers from scoring a lot of runs.

I would assume that if you go back far enough in time with Brooklyn, you would find a big deficit overcome. Especially in the 1930s when runs came easily.

2007-06-20 17:26:27
188.   blue22
I think pierre could bring some jamie moyer-style stuff to the mound.
2007-06-20 17:26:36
189.   Gagne55
182 Wade Boggs mopped up a couple of times and he's a hall of fame third baseman. Granted his pitching days were well beyond his prime years.

Nobody ever developes two way playes anymore. They thrive in high school and college but by the time guys turn pro they have to go one way or the other.

2007-06-20 17:28:05
190.   scareduck
186 - "a lot" = "more than I can".
2007-06-20 17:28:48
191.   Gagne55
188 If you bounce the ball into the strike zone is it a strike?
2007-06-20 17:29:46
192.   JT Dutch

Yeah; Hamilton got Billy Hatcher looking at a fastball on the outside corner, and Ken Caminiti swung and missed a high fastball to strike out. Caminiti promptly broke his bat (or attempted to break it) over his knee.

One thing I remember about that marathon game -- Eddie Murray came up with a chance to give the Dodgers the lead in the 21st and hit a line drive up the middle, but Rafael Ramirez had been shifted defensively to that precise area. I'll never forget Lasorda (who was coaching third) starting to celebrate when he saw the ball come off the bat, then agonizing as Ramirez caught the liner in his tracks. Hilarious stuff.

2007-06-20 17:30:20
193.   trainwreck
Ethier is being productive today.
2007-06-20 17:30:42
194.   scareduck
182 - thus explaining Scott Spiezio and Mark Grace.
2007-06-20 17:30:54
195.   Bob Timmermann
The last 6-run comeback I believe was 4/19/2005 when the Dodgers trailed Milwaukee 6-0 after the Brewers scored four in the sixth.

The Dodgers scored one in the sixth, four in the seventh, and one in the ninth to tie and won it in the 10th on a Milton Bradley homer 8-6. The game was at Miller Park.

2007-06-20 17:33:58
196.   overkill94
Speed dating at a baseball game, that sounds awesome
2007-06-20 17:34:15
197.   Gagne55
I would so sign up for that speed dating.
2007-06-20 17:34:27
198.   MC Safety
psycho and charley are making this extremely hard to watch.
2007-06-20 17:36:19
199.   trainwreck
Let's call up Meloan and DFA Tomko.
2007-06-20 17:36:28
200.   goofus
182 If I remember correctly, only position players who are registered with and approved by the Commissioner can be emergency pitchers. They wear a metal plate on the shoe that would be on the rubber. Since Loney has been up for only a week or so, there is almost no chance he is the emergency pitcher. At least that's the way I remember it.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2007-06-20 17:37:08
201.   Jon Weisman
In 3,037 career plate appearances, Gregg Zaun has nine triples.
2007-06-20 17:37:20
202.   Gagne55
And they finally advocate pulling Martin.
2007-06-20 17:37:21
203.   Eric Enders
192 I think all Dodger fans of a certain age have the image burned into their psyche of Fernando jumping for that line drive at first base and wishing he was two inches taller.
2007-06-20 17:38:08
204.   Jon Weisman
200 - I've never heard anything like that in my life. I'm not trying to doubt you, but that sounds so bizarre.
2007-06-20 17:38:27
205.   natepurcell
i dont think i would be good at speed dating if it was at a dodger game. I would be the most least interesting person any woman would talk to unless they enjoy hearing about how the 2005 Jacksonville team won a league championship.
2007-06-20 17:38:40
206.   Gagne55
200 Srsly? I thought anybody was allowed to play any position.
2007-06-20 17:39:44
207.   Andrew Shimmin
Sounds like a joke. Although it's tricky, since, you know, no sight gag.
2007-06-20 17:39:53
208.   Eric Enders
200 is obviously not true. I think it was a joke, but if so, it's one that's over my head.
2007-06-20 17:42:27
209.   JT Dutch
... As for position players pitching, I recall off-hand the Dodgers sending Danny Heep to the mound in 1988, and ... let's see here ... here is Heep's appearance:

... Mickey Hatcher got into a game in 1989:

... and Dave Concepcion pitched against the Dodgers in 1988:

... The Dodgers won that Concepcion game 13-5, on 22 hits, all singles.

2007-06-20 17:43:45
210.   D4P
I think Matt Stairs sat on Gameday...
2007-06-20 17:45:13
211.   Eric Enders
Ex-Dodger Brent Mayne, while playing for Colorado, had probably the best position-player-pitching game in recent history, since he was actually the winning pitcher.

2007-06-20 17:47:20
212.   Gagne55
211 Ah yes, one of Vin Scully's favorite stories.
2007-06-20 17:47:57
213.   bhsportsguy
I wonder at a certain point, do you just swing and hope to make an out if you are Toronto.

205 So you limit your Jacksonville talk to the ballpark?

2007-06-20 17:51:20
214.   D4P
Bye, son.
2007-06-20 17:54:40
215.   goofus
[204} I can't find anything to substantiate that but I d remember an announcer saying that years ago. I trust my memory more than the knowledge of a lot of announcers we know...
2007-06-20 17:59:15
216.   Greg Brock
I hope nobody from DT called in a bomb scare. It's just one game, guys.

This is weird.

2007-06-20 17:59:18
217.   Eric Enders
What is going on with the umpires?
2007-06-20 18:02:45
218.   Dodgers49
215. That announcer should be fired.
2007-06-20 18:03:21
219.   Eric Enders
Answer - Home plate umpire Eric Cooper pulled a muscle running to first base and removed himself from the game.

I'm not even going to make a joke. Fish/barrel.

2007-06-20 18:04:41
220.   Greg Brock
The day I get my dating pimpage critiqued by Steiner is the day I swallow a bullet.

And there's nobody on the field...absolutely nobody...except for the two umpires still on the field. Nice work, Charlie.

2007-06-20 18:05:06
221.   Gagne55
lol. Naked Gun. lol
2007-06-20 18:05:43
222.   Humma Kavula
218 I don't know. It's kind of fun when the announcers make stuff up.

At least, that's what they told me when I went to school in Borneo.

2007-06-20 18:08:29
223.   twerp
On the bright side, Kguo could pitch tomorrow if needed...couldn't he?

That'd fit the past suggestion of some here for Bills and Kguo to split games.

Hope one awful game doesn't shake Kguo's confidence. Shouldn't. If he was on and getting lit up like that it'd be one thing. But on he obviously wasn't.

Also hope his performance was not because he's hurt, or something's not quite right physically...

2007-06-20 18:10:31
224.   Dodgers49
I remember Jose Canseco ruining his arm trying to pitch for Boston. No great loss. I don't remember him having a metal plate on his shoe but then my memory isn't as good as it used to be. :-)
2007-06-20 18:11:07
225.   Eric Enders
C'mon, don't waste Broxton tonight. Let Marlon Anderson pitch.
2007-06-20 18:12:21
226.   Gagne55
225 I'm thinking the same thing. The only reason I'm still watching is the hope to see a position player go in the eighth.
2007-06-20 18:21:51
227.   xaphor
3.5 gets us on the board
2007-06-20 18:22:15
228.   Gagne55
Ethier starts the comeback.
2007-06-20 18:23:40
229.   Bob Timmermann
The rule about pitchers did exist back in the 1940s and 1950s. It was later dispensed with in the early 1960s.
2007-06-20 18:25:15
230.   Gagne55
229 Source?
2007-06-20 18:26:01
231.   McDodger
2007-06-20 18:27:19
232.   xaphor
I presumed Bob was acknowledged as a quotable source 'round these parts. :)
2007-06-20 18:28:34
233.   Gen3Blue
190 Now that is scary.
2007-06-20 18:28:50
234.   Gagne55
Saito? Ok, game goes off.
2007-06-20 18:30:24
235.   Gen3Blue
Someone today was pleading for Kou to save our good bullpen guys. And he surely offered that option!
2007-06-20 18:35:08
236.   Bob Timmermann
In the June 4, 1962 LA Times, there was a story about how in a June 2, 1962 game between the Dodgers and Phillies, Walter Alston let reliever Joe Moeller bat in the eighth inning of a 7-0 loss. Alston wanted Andy Carey to pinch hit for Moeller and have Carey pitch the bottom of the 8th.

Alston explained what he was going to do to umpire Jocko Conlon and he said it was OK, but Ken Burkhart overruled him and said that since Carey was not listed as a pitcher, he could not pitch. So Moeller batted.

The next day, the Dodgers called the NL office and the league secretary checked the rule book and realized that there was no such rule. And from then on, anybody could pitch.

It wasn't really a rule, but a commonly held misconception that the umpires had given the force of a rule.

2007-06-20 18:39:44
237.   McDodger
welp... thats that, that sucked
2007-06-20 18:40:01
238.   das411
Yknow it is kind of scary that I agree with Lyons there, that if pitchers can be voted into the Hall based on just their pitching and not hitting, why should a DH not be voted in based on his hitting and not fielding?
2007-06-20 19:06:22
239.   xaphor
But pitchers are being judge against other pitchers who also cannot hit rendering hitting stats moot.

A DH is being compared to not just hitters, but hitters who fielded a position, often better than average. Maybe once DH's are coming up for consideration in droves, like the recent surge in closers, we would see a more categorical evaluation of DH's to one another.

2007-06-20 19:14:24
240.   Andrew Shimmin
Sosa got 600.
2007-06-20 19:27:44
241.   Bob Timmermann
An early 3-0 lead for the O's in San Diego. Leo Mazzone has announced he will stay on as pitching coach.
2007-06-20 19:30:08
242.   Doctor
Missed the game and chat, looks pretty ugly.
Did Kemp look hopeless at the dish? Or was Halladay pitching well, or both? Kemp has something like 6Ks in his last 7 ABs. Worried.
2007-06-20 19:42:40
243.   Bluebleeder87

shh, don't tell Jon that.

2007-06-20 19:47:15
244.   Bluebleeder87
one more thought on friends/teammates that i played ball with that kind of made it. a while back i saw an old teammate of mine & he told me Raymond Ruiz played as high as A ball with the Dodgers, i can't confirm on deny that, i do know he played for Florida State though.
2007-06-20 19:50:19
245.   PDH5204
Jon, sorry to have to mix threads, but for my own answer to the question, What will the Dodgers do?, well, that's a big fat one right down the middle, and so they'll fire Eddie Murray again.
2007-06-20 19:52:03
246.   Bob Timmermann
A 1950 Sporting News had an article about how the American Association that year introduced a rule that only allowed players designated as pitchers prior to the game to actually pitch in a game.
2007-06-20 20:02:08
247.   Bluebleeder87

if i'm understanding correctly, it's like having an emergency catcher?

2007-06-20 20:03:51
248.   Bob Timmermann
I'm not sure why the American Association adopted that rule. But I wonder if other minor leagues had the rule and that's why the umpires in 1962 in the majors screwed up the rule.
2007-06-20 20:04:53
249.   lab rat
San Diego's team ERA is 2.97. I mean, that's ridiculous this late in a season. The optimistic side of me desperately wants to believe that tonight is a harbinger of their eventual return to earth, where Justin Germano is Justin Germano, David Wells pitches like the whale who has basically been a mediocre pitcher since 2005, and Trevor Hoffman actually has to contend with natural aging. But this is starting to enter 2003 Dodger territory, right? Are they that good?
2007-06-20 20:06:22
250.   Hallux Valgus
246 Was there any rule not allowing pitchers to play other positions? Otherwise, why not just list everyone as a pitcher, just in case?
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2007-06-20 20:14:28
251.   Bob Timmermann
That's what I've been trying to figure out. There wasn't any limit on listing everyone as a pitcher.

That likely would have been the reason to get rid of the rule.

2007-06-20 20:20:52
252.   still bevens
From Tony Jackson:

Schmidt done for the year

Jason Schmidt had a torn labrum, scarring of the bursa and a frayed biceps tendon. He won't throw for three or four months, but they're hopeful he'll be ready by the start of spring training. At first glance, this would appear to be devastating news. But as GM Ned Colletti correctly pointed out in the most relevant quote of the day, "With all due respect, he wasn't throwing well. It's not as if he were on the way to a Cy Young season and suddenly you lose him.''

2007-06-20 20:22:56
253.   Hallux Valgus
252 Jeez. That doesn't bother me as much as the time it took for Schmidt to admit he was hurt. That's a lot of damage to try to "work through."
2007-06-20 20:30:53
254.   JoeyP
252--How could they not detect a torn labrum during spring training? Do MRI's not detect those types of injuries?
2007-06-20 20:32:12
255.   Greg Brock
All that stuff should have come up through the physical, so he hurt it after he signed. I wonder when his shoulder got that wrecked.

Unless they just took Conte's word for it. In which case, well, dumb dumb dumb.

2007-06-20 20:34:12
256.   Hallux Valgus
the labrum could've come whenever, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on that, but the scarring and the fraying seem like long term issues... I just don't see how those weren't found.
2007-06-20 20:35:58
257.   Bob Timmermann
From the Johns Hopkins Department of Orthopaedic Medicine webpage:

How is a diagnosis of a labrum tear made?

Because this cartilage is deep in the shoulder, it is very difficult to make the diagnosis of a torn labrum upon physical examination. There are several tests that the physician can perform which may indicate a torn labrum, but these tests are not always accurate. The other problem is that labrum tears take different forms as described above, and certain tests will detect one kind of tear but not another. Some physicians feel very confident that they can make the diagnosis of a labral tear upon physical examination, but this is controversial. There are not many scientific studies that show that physical examination is reliable for making the diagnosis of a labral tear. As a result of this uncertainty, other studies can be done to confirm the diagnosis if it is suspected.

The best tests available to make the diagnosis of a labral tear are magnetic resonance imaging or a test called a CT-arthrogram ( the latter is a CAT scan preceded by an arthrogram where dye is injected into the shoulder). Both of these tests are relatively good at defining a labrum tear due to a subluxation or dislocation, but they are only around 80-85% accurate. For that reason, some physicians believe that are not always needed if the diagnosis of subluxation or dislocation can be made by history and physical examination. Neither of those tests is currently very good at making the diagnosis of a SLAP lesion. This area is very complex and it is difficult to reliably get good pictures of this area with MRI.

However, if the MRI definitely shows a tear then frequently it will be present. The problem is that the MRI may miss smaller tears and cannot reliably make the diagnosis in larger tears of the labrum.

The best way to make the diagnosis of labrum tearing is with arthroscopy of the shoulder. Unfortunately this is an operative procedure and requires some form of anesthesia. Making the diagnosis also takes some experience on the part of the surgeon, since the anatomy of the inside of the shoulder can be quite complex. The relationship between labrum tears and symptoms has not been totally figured out, so it is not clearly known which ones should be repaired and which ones can be left alone.

2007-06-20 20:36:44
258.   Indiana Jon
This is actually real good news. He's out for the year, which gives Billingsley his opportunity. It also means there is a real problem with Schmidt. The only other explanation would have been that he just sucks. At least this has a chance of being fixable and we may get a decent Schmidt for half his contract anyway.
2007-06-20 20:42:10
259.   JoeyP
The Rockies are 19-7 over the last month have closed to within 3 games of the Dodgers.
2007-06-20 20:43:57
260.   Bluebleeder87
i agree this is actually really good news, & like Ned said he wasn't exactly lights out this year. He'll makes us that much better next year. & hopefully Bills will emerge as a quality arm this year.
2007-06-20 20:48:10
261.   Hallux Valgus
I will say that it's not really bad news, but I can't consider it good. At least now we know that Bills won't get jerked around, and that's definitely good.
2007-06-20 20:48:11
262.   Hallux Valgus
I will say that it's not really bad news, but I can't consider it good. At least now we know that Bills won't get jerked around, and that's definitely good.
2007-06-20 20:50:22
263.   JoeyP
261--Exactly. Looks like Kuo/Billingsley are going to be in the rotation all year unless the Dodgers go get someone else.

I cant seem them going back to Tomko/Hendrickson.

2007-06-20 20:51:38
264.   Hallux Valgus
okay, I totally didn't double click. I only had one comment until JoeyP's comment. Promise.
2007-06-20 20:55:19
265.   Wayne Wei-siang Hsieh
It'll be interesting to see Will Carroll's comments on this. It's my impression that surgery to repair a torn labrum is a much more dicey procedure than Tommy John surgery. But like other people, I am happy that at least we have an injury now that's been identified, and which we now have a chance of correcting. And I think Bills is ready to step up big in the rotation.


2007-06-20 20:57:40
266.   Marty
With all that was going on in Schmidt's shoulder I'm surprised you couldn't hear it rattling when he jogged.
2007-06-20 20:59:30
267.   Eric Enders
260 "i agree this is actually really good news... He'll makes us that much better next year."

Unfortunately, I don't think that's the case, especially not if it's a complete tear. A torn labrum is not something you come back from. In fact, with all the modern medical advances, I think it's basically the only remaining career-ending inury. As far as I know, there is not even one example of a player tearing his labrum and coming back to be an effective pitcher.

A partial tear is a different story, but one that still presents very long odds. We don't know yet if Schmidt's tear is a partial or complete one. In either case, I think we would have to be very pleasantly surprised if Schmidt ever pitches another major league game.

Here's a Will Carroll article on labrum tears:

"The leading minds in baseball medicine are flummoxed by the labrum. Doctors can't agree on how to detect a tear, don't know the best way to fix one, and aren't sure why, almost without fail, a torn labrum will destroy a pitcher's career."

2007-06-20 21:02:46
268.   Hallux Valgus
267 Great, so we've potentially got another "Special Assistant to the GM."
2007-06-20 21:05:33
269.   Eric Enders
Or pitching coach, if Honeycutt gets fired.
2007-06-20 21:10:23
270.   Bob Timmermann
And Jeff Weaver is tossing a 3-hit shutout after 8 in Seattle against the Pirates.
2007-06-20 21:11:49
271.   Hallux Valgus
269 Well, first comes one, then the other, based on the Bill Mueller Theory.
2007-06-20 21:15:47
272.   Greg Brock
So we're looking at 47 million for a guy who may never throw another pitch.

At least we're in familiar territory here. No problem.

2007-06-20 21:17:14
273.   Hallux Valgus
272 Don't the Dodgers have a standard "Darren Dreifort Clause" in their insurance policy?
2007-06-20 21:19:24
274.   Jon Weisman
Come on. Labrums? Dodgers? We've covered this ground...

2007-06-20 21:22:07
275.   Hallux Valgus
274 I know where you're going, but Shawn Green didn't pitch. Nor did he ever get back any power.
2007-06-20 21:26:20
276.   Eric Enders
275 I am becoming more and more concerned that that last sentence may also apply to Andy LaRoche. He had surgery to repair a torn labrum this winter. His power has suddenly disappeared. He recently sat out the better part of the week with a sore shoulder. Red flags abound.
2007-06-20 21:27:38
277.   underdog
Well. Harumph.

I was driving up from SB back to SF this afternoon so I missed the game and then watched the condensed version of it on MLB TV. Thankfully, because I sure would have been even more tortured if had to watch it live. Ugh. What a horror show. Oh well, the Jays get revenge on the D's for the night before and then you move on.

The balls were just jumping off their bats, what can you do? Was Kuo that bad or was it just a combination of things? I couldn't tell from just the high(low)lights.

With Schmidt officially done for the year, I'm gonna worry more about their pitching if we have a few more of these Kuo-then-Tomko shell games but I have more faith in Kuo than that.

All I can say is... let's go Chad!

2007-06-20 21:28:41
278.   trainwreck
The Dodgers have Schmidt with a shoulder injury, Elbert with a shoulder injury, and LaRoche coming off a shoulder injury. That would be very bad to not get those three back to form.
2007-06-20 21:28:48
279.   underdog
276 I was just thinking that too. Or at least, maybe they should have shelved him longer and focused more on building him up for next year rather than playing with a weak arm/shoulder.
2007-06-20 21:29:42
280.   Hallux Valgus
276 "He says what we're all thinking..."

um, yeah, I definitely had that in mind.

2007-06-20 21:29:57
281.   Bob Timmermann
And yet Jason Schmidt hit a home run this year.
2007-06-20 21:30:26
282.   Hallux Valgus
Wasn't Rolen also a labrum issue? No power there.
2007-06-20 21:34:15
283.   Eric Enders
Just checking in on the 51s... LaRoche sat out again tonight. Good god, that's an awful lineup we have down there.
2007-06-20 21:35:51
284.   Marty
Come on. Labrums? We talkin Labrums, man. Labrums?
2007-06-20 21:38:21
285.   trainwreck
If only we could draft players without shoulders.
2007-06-20 21:38:47
286.   Greg Brock
284 Marty wins. Lafftastic, Marty.

The Labrum is quickly becoming my least favorite body part. Stupid Appendix, sittin' there doin' nuthin' and getting asploded in the Dominican Republic now has competition.

I hate you, Labrum.

2007-06-20 21:41:20
287.   Eric Enders
Appendices have nothing on labrums. We got taken to the woodshed tonight by a pitcher who had his appendix removed a month ago.
2007-06-20 21:41:56
288.   Bob Timmermann
Labrums are also found in hips. It is not a shoulder specific body part.
2007-06-20 21:42:37
289.   Eric Enders
So do we get to blame the demise of Bo Jackson on the labrum too?
2007-06-20 21:46:09
290.   Greg Brock
288 I just have a beef with the glenoidal labrum.

The acetabular labrum and I are totally cool.

2007-06-20 21:48:10
291.   Bob Timmermann
Bo Jackson had a hip subluxation. And when that happens, you are very likely to tear the ... wait for it ... labrum.

Jackson also had some arterial damage in his hip too I believe. It was pretty messed up.

2007-06-20 21:48:27
292.   natepurcell
lambo got in his first professional action today going 1-2 with a double. Gallagher hasnt played yet and no sign of withrow or watt.
2007-06-20 21:51:07
293.   still bevens
Didnt Chris Carpenter come back from a pretty bad shoulder injury or was his of a different variety?
2007-06-20 21:51:16
294.   Jon Weisman
276 -
2007-06-20 21:52:29
295.   Bob Timmermann
To be precise, Bo Jackson had a hip subluxation and that led him to develop a case of avascular necrosis (AVN) in his hip.

It's never good to have something with the word "necrosis" attached to it.

2007-06-20 21:59:12
296.   Daniel Zappala
Oh man, I check in tonight and I find a horrendous loss, Schmidt is out for the season and may never be the same, and you're scaring me with a similar injury on LaRoche, and another shoulder problem with Elbert.

We need some good news tonight. All I got is that Evans (the Angels' Mitch Jones clone) got a homer in his first big league AB tonight and Vlad hit a 3-run shot to put the Angels up big. But not all you are Angels fans, so that might not help.

2007-06-20 22:02:37
297.   Daniel Zappala
Thanks, Jon, for the link to the discussion of Shawn Green. Very interesting read. And to Eric for the link to the Slate article. Good stuff.
2007-06-20 22:03:54
298.   Bob Timmermann
Evans had actually batted before he hit his home run. He was in his second game.
2007-06-20 22:04:07
299.   Eric Enders
293 Carpenter had what BP called a "minor tear" of the labrum, missed a whole year, and came back. In 1995 Curt Schilling had a partial tear and, obviously, came back. Coming back from a partial tear is hard to do, but possible. A complete tear, and you're sleeping with the fishes. Considering the importance of the distinction, it's unfortunate that none of the news reports have yet discussed the severity of the tear.
2007-06-20 22:06:35
300.   xaphor
294. This Dodger Thoughts blog seems pretty on top of things, I should check it out.
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2007-06-20 22:07:13
301.   Marty
I tend to think that if it was a partial tear, they'd get the info out asap. A full tear, we may not hear for awhile.
2007-06-20 22:08:03
302.   Daniel Zappala
298 Ah, so just his first major league hit was a homer. The way the announcers were talking about it, I thought they said it was his first AB.
2007-06-20 22:08:42
303.   Xeifrank
I feel bad, I may have jinxed the game. I followed the first inning online, then hopped in my car and turned on the radio. Then everything fell apart for Guo. The Monday/Ruess team was pretty bad. You could hear the ball popping the mit of the catcher, but they wouldn't tell you if it was a strike or ball. You could kind of piece each at bat together by the 2nd or 3rd pitch of the at bat. Oh well. Better luck next time to Guo. Sorry to hear about Schmidt too. It would be nice if you could put some kind of innings pitched or games started incentive in pitching contracts. Pitching injuries can be very devastating. Nothing like paying someone millions and millions to sit in rehab.
vr, Xei
2007-06-20 22:09:41
304.   still bevens
301 says it was a complete tear and they have to let it reattach to the bone.
2007-06-20 22:11:20
305.   still bevens
Although the club had said it did not know what to expect going into the exploratory surgery, Conte said the labral tear was not anticipated and was the most severe of the three injuries.

"It must grow back to the bone, so the rehab process slows down," he said. "We anticipated that the labrum did not need to be reattached, but it did."

2007-06-20 22:11:42
306.   underdog
That Slate article on Labrums that Jon linked to in the archived LaRoche post is worth a read, too.

But this discussion is too labrum-intensive for me so I'm going to bed. Hope tomorrow's news is less full of... bad stuff.

2007-06-20 22:14:30
307.   Greg Brock
Wow. The end of the Jason Schmidt era. So many memories, so much to think about. I'll never forget the time bhsporstguy and I watched him hit 85 on the gun. Actually, we saw him pitch twice.

Yup, that's all I got.

2007-06-20 22:16:27
308.   trainwreck
I never even got to see him pitch in a Dodger uniform : (
2007-06-20 22:17:21
309.   trainwreck
If his career is over that is.
2007-06-20 22:23:10
310.   Marty
304 Well, I'm wrong about how they handle it. Good that they tell the story as soon as they know. Too bad for Schmidt. I hardly knew him.
2007-06-20 22:24:07
311.   Jon Weisman
I've reattached a post to the bone up top.
2007-06-20 22:30:07
312.   Bob Timmermann
I saw Schmidt pitch.

It was a highly overrated experience.

2007-06-20 22:44:22
313.   Fallout
I watched Schmidt a lot in SF the last two years. It always seemed like he was working through something to get his velocity up. Here is a commentary made at about Schmidt before the 2006 season.
"Schmidt had Cy Young stuff for much of the 2003 and 2004 seasons, but dropped off in production considerably in 2005. Despite feeling great in camp, Schmidt struggled out of the gate in '05, posting a decent 3.41 ERA in April before exploding in May with a 7.78 mark. By the end of that month, he had just two wins and a 5.08 ERA. He also struggled with a loss of velocity and spent time on the DL with a "dead arm".

He was better in the second half including an outstanding August in which he posted a 4-0 record with a 3.13 ERA. A hamstring injury slowed him in September and he finished that month with a 5.40 ERA."

From what I remember in 2006 Schmidt pitched very well in the first half of the season with mixed results the 2nd half. His pitch count per inning very was high (someone could probably look it up) but had an excellent change-up that made up for a lack of velocity though decent.

2007-06-20 23:03:50
314.   scareduck
296 - We need some good news tonight. All I got is that Evans (the Angels' Mitch Jones clone) got a homer in his first big league AB tonight and Vlad hit a 3-run shot to put the Angels up big. But not all you are Angels fans, so that might not help.

I don't get the Jones comparison. Jones was 29 this year, and repeated high-A twice, and AA and AAA three times. Evans is 25, repeated low A twice, high-A three times, AA twice times, but the third time was the charm as he slingshotted through two levels and never stopped hitting. He continued hitting at AAA Salt Lake and earned (however dubiously: 60:10 K:BB ratio) a promotion to the Show. But the age difference is a big key. So far with the Angels, he has struck out once and walked once, in five plate appearances. That's better than his minor league record, and almost certainly unsustainable. However, as with Kendry Morales, a homer as your first major league hit is a ticket to some playing time, and with an ice-cold opponent (Pirates) on tap, it's a near-certainty he'll get another start. Probably that will come at the expense of Shea Hillenbrand, who is almost certainly a better hitter.

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