These comments from Evan Grant:

GMs that hold on to top prospects in lieu of making a trade for an elite, difference-making talent are abusing their positions

good as Loney is, he won't make a difference in the pennant race this year. Teixeira will

I hear that Mark Teixeira once single-handedly won a game for the Rangers by the sheer force of his magnetic personality.

This was LATed (and sorry for the length):

486. Hythloday
I stop paying attention to a blowout and a miss a discussion of empire and philosophy. I guess it serves me right.

No love for Thomas More? But I suppose my bias is evidenced by my handle here. Anyway of the conservative philosophers he is my favorite. Though I enjoy Burke too, but more for his discussion of aesthetics.

In the end rejecting the Enlightenment on the grounds of the preeminence that it gives reason (whether because it leads to a marginalization of god or the unnecessary inhibitions of philosophical inquiry) seems problematic to me. You can't reject "human reason" because we have no insight into any other types of reason. Left as such any conclusions we reach are either reasoned or faithfully accepted. Neither is inherently wrong, but the latter can never lead to a progressive mode of scientific inquiry (i.e. can you reject the centrality of reason on a blog the very existence of which is engineered around scientifically deduced principles?). As I see it we live in a world of reason that allows you the luxury of rejecting it. From this point of view the Enlightenment didn't so much reject the centrality of god as relegate god to his appropriate realm (the metaphysical) in order to simplify the understanding of the physical. If this move isn't made then you constantly have to contend with the slippery slope that leads to al-Ghazali. We all know how that turned out for the Islamic world.

Again I don't mean this to be combative, merely inquisitive.

2 Did the other team choose not to play, or did his magnetic personality somehow short out the scoreboard in such a way as to give Texas more runs than the other team?

I forgot today's game was an afternoon one. That's a relief. Now I don't have to stew over last night until 10. I wonder what St. Augustine would think about baseball. Even more interesting, I wonder what Bob Dylan would sing about St. Augustine and baseball. Doubtless he would misuse "whom" in there somewhere.

As to the latest rumor-mongering the effect of it so far has been to like Ned a bit more. He seems to realize the folly of that reasoning and is acting accordingly. Last year made me worry that Ned was a complete idiot. This year is having the opposite effect. On the other hand Evan Grant is a complete idiot. I am pretty sure on that account.

4. Building on your posts from the last thread, I'm just curious as to how you think people should be governed. It appeared from your posts that you don't care for democracy or other modern forms of government. I just found your post on the belief that the classical thinkers are much smarter than we are very interesting.

Teixiera came up to mlb looking for a spot at either third or first and the opening came at first. Perhaps he could play third if he were to become a Dodger but I would rather not pay him $20 Million a year to do it for the next 7 years to keep him.

If he is only a rental I would not want to lose any long-term pieces / prospects so my offer of Betemit and Young wouldn't be enough. See ya in pinstripes Tex.

"When Mark Teixeira travelled through time
To the year 3010,
He fought the evil robot king,
And saved the human race again."

It really is annoying when these guys just make stuff up.

6 - Plato is probably my favorite philosopher as well, but (without speaking for mr pellam?) I've always thought that he a more entertaining and elegant writer than say Rawls or Habermas. Rawls and Habermas are closer to right though. Heck, Nozick is closer to right than Plato, but the lack of elegance takes some of the fun out of it.

3 -- I don't "reject reason," merely the notion of its preeminence. A Christian has to ascribe preeminence to God and revelation. I believe in deductive reasoning, but I liken it to Euclidean geometry: the theorems are logically deduced, but you have to start with unprovable axioms. Revelation is the Christian's axiom. As for inductive reasoning, the very foundation of scientific inquiry, well, that I don't believe in as a means of ascertaining truth, and neither did Augustine, who seems to be very popular at DT. Induction, or reasoning from the part to the whole, is logically specious. But science doesn't need to be "true" to be efficacious, to be useful.

6 I have been trying for the past two years or so to figure out how I think people should be governed. I think democracy is neither possible (my practical concern) nor preferable (my ideological concern). Perhaps if I had my way, professors and grad students would rule (and get paid more).

I think the big problem is not the form the government should take, though I find these discussions the most interesting, but rather that human society has advanced to a point where discussions of the good life are overwhelmed by the speed of the advancements in technology and the shrinking of the world.

What I mean to say is that I think people should govern themselves in small communities, with an educated and conscientious aristocracy at the lead. This ideology is very Platonic in structure, but the lifestyle I envision is much different.

These things are impossible, though. When someone figures out how to turn off the world's electricity, then I will start to preach my ideas.

9 I don't know what could be positively asserted to be wrong about Plato. Certainly he uses logical fallacies to make his points at times, but the primary problem for me with his ideas is only aesthetic.

I think Plato is right that, in its essence, virtue is only the knowledge of what is right. What he thinks episteme and sophia are is where I begin to have problems.

Man, would I love to jump into this discussion, but I really don't have time to catch up on last night's thread and I'd really rather just turn my Pierre bashing on Hendrickson. :-)

I wonder if GMs purposefuly initiate "off-the-record" gossip just to be misleading. As I much as I might be suspect of Coletti and the organization about trades (see CMC, Lugo, etc) some rumors just seem so outlandish as to be laughable.

Perhaps if I had my way, professors and grad students would rule (and get paid more)

Are you still accepting subscriptions to your newsletter...?

My head hurts.

11. I'm sure you were being tongue in cheek with the grad students and professors line, but I don't know if I could live in a world like that. It really speaks to how in the world you would be able to determine who would be this educated and conscientious aristocracy to lead these communities, I would certainly not pick professors and grad students to fill that role.

It really speaks to how in the world you would be able to determine who would be this educated and conscientious aristocracy to lead these communities

Does "voting" produce a more qualified aristocracy?

My favorite quote:

Ah, but as I mentioned before, I am simpleton.

What a genius! He hammers home the point that he "is simpleton" by using poor grammar.

Anyway, I call Evan Grant on rules 3, 8 and possibly 11.

16 I think you've hit the problem. Tell me where to find an educated and conscientious aristocracy, and I'll take it from there.

What kind of sicko news organization or blog would post odds of baseball games!!? That's just sick! :)
vr, Xei

17. More qualified than what? Than picking professors and grad students?

I can picture it. My first day in grad school, if professors and grad students ruled the world.

"Alright, Greg, it's your first day of grad school. You have a Sallust seminar at 130 and ancient history seminar at 330, but before that, you have to teach your first western civ class, for which we have provided you with no training, and can you get on the energy crisis?"

19. Yeah, that's always the problem, basically with every organization, how do you create the rules of an institution to ensure that it is run well, how do you figure out who enforces the rules, and how do you place controls on the enforcers so that they don't abuse their power.

So the Dodgers "have" a 1st baseman in James Loney ? But what exactly do they have ? They for sure have a very good fielder. They also have a guy capable of hitting over .300. But he's also a youngster whose power has still not come around (4 HR's in 380 PA's this yr, 12 HR's in 511 PA's last year)at a power position. So his value to the team is based almost entirely on his Bat Avg.. If he hits like he did in that 2 week stretch in June, that's great. But what if he hits like he has these past 2.5 weeks (719 OPS) ? Or the first 2.5 mos of the season (727 OPS in Vegas)? This could be a fairly weak solution at 1b for the remainder of 2007 unless his Bat Avg is in .315+ territory.
Yes, James Loney could develop power in the next year or two and we wouldn't want to miss out on that. But the fact remains that he's 23 and the power hasn't come yet, and Mark Teixeira is a proven power hitter. At age 23, Teixeira hit 26 HR's in the majors, not the 8-10 that Loney will likely record this year. In fact will Loney ever be as good as Teixeira ? Very doubtful. Loney has shown no indication of becoming 35-40 HR hitter that Tex has.
So the question in my view isn't whether Dodgers should trade Loney for Teixeira. If the budget can afford it for next two seasons , Tex is the better solution. The real issue is the second player required to get the deal done. If it means a Kershaw, that's a tough decision. If it's Elbert, pull the trigger.

More qualified than what? Than picking professors and grad students?

Yes. In other words, does the current system produce better/more qualified/whatever leaders than would be produced by picking professors and grad students?

Trading Loney straight up for Teixeira in itself is not a bad idea considering Tex has already begun mashing and if you haven't seen what he did in the 2nd half last year you should (24 homers, .998 OPS). Sure we give up a few future years of Loney for only two from Tex, but I think it's worth the risk in the short-term to rely on the proven power hitter. Giving up Kershaw, however, would be extremely foolish and totally ruins the deal for me.

Just another day when I totally agree with Jon, although simpleton doesn't begin to go far enough.This guys desire to unload Tex makes it clearly an unfair deal. I also don't think we want to deal with Boras right now. I've come to realize it is impracticle that we would never again deal with him in a situation of great worth to the D's. But this doesn't approach that situation, and I think Boras and his clients must realize there is some penalty for ruthlessly always "winning for your client.

4 G I'd forgoten you must be an Eastoner

As to much of this conversation my response, at least in the morning is -huh.......What!

10 I believe in truth, whether obtained via reason or revelation.

I reject the notion that communities should be ruled by professors and grad students. I'm already far too busy!

Over the last 3 years Tex has hit an average of 21 home runs with an OPS over 950 after the all-star break.
Even with those number I've come to the same conclusion as Jon in that I wouldn't trade Loney for an expensive rental when Loney will be a cheap and productive solution for years. We might live to regret that decision this year but we won't from 2008-2012.

I believe in the notion of no more days off for Russell Martin. Bad things happen.

Teixeira is under contract for next year too, so he wouldn't be just a 1/2 season rental. Not that I'm advocating such a thing...

Los Angeles Dodgers: The last time the Dodgers won a playoff series was 1988. They are locked into an annual fight-to-the-finish with San Diego. They have a young, very talented first baseman in James Loney, who will very possibly be Teixeira's equal some day. Maybe even within the next two years, but, good as Loney is, he won't make a difference in the pennant race this year. Teixeira will. Yes, the Rangers will demand a high price for Teixeira: Loney and Highland Park-ex Clayton Kershaw. If you are Dodgers GM Ned Colletti, you have to ask yourself: Is one World Series ring worth that? What about two?

-Evan Grant: Dallas Morning News.

Very simplistic view on things Mr.Grant. Problem is, if life was that simple the Rangers would have won at least 2 W/S with Mr. Tex.

Much to your chagrin, Loney has made a difference so far in this year's pennant race for the Dodgers. His experience during this season, would only garner him much needed pennant race pressure experience, that you speak of down the road. BTW, how many pennant races has Tex been able to significantly alter with his prescence...hmmmm..maybe he is lacking that needed intangible pennant race experience himself. I understand Texiara is an All-star caliber player...but in time so will Loney. Ned's best move is no move on this matter.

I reject the notion that communities should be ruled by professors and grad students. I'm already far too busy!

Good point. Let's drop the "ruling communities" thing and just focus on the "get paid more" part.

Give me Millwood that is all I ask. At the end of the trading period and these guys are still in the organization I'll be happy.
Kemp
Loney
La Roche
Kershaw
Billingsley
Martin - goes without saying
Kershaw
J Bell
Kershaw

34
What if we just trade 1 of the Kershaws?

Ok, so I botched..the spelling of one Mark Teixeira.. that's another reason we should not trade Loney (I can spell that right)for him. "James Loney" is much more simple to spell ;-)

34 - Isn't Millwood a little expensive, long-term?

25. Oh completely, almost every academic department I have seen up close and personal is more disfunctional than even the worst government bureaucracy already is. The atmostphere is almost uniformly poinsonous, a large portion of the people there are socially retarded, and most departments are dominated by borderline sociopaths, Professors and Grad students are among the lower tiers of groups of people I would pick to be the leaders of any community.

37 - Millwood: 6M in 2006, 7.5M in 2007, 8.5M in 2008, 11M in 2009 and 12M in 2010 (last year can be voided if certain IP goals aren't reached)

Professors and Grad students are among the lower tiers of groups of people I would pick to be the leaders of any community

Are they above or below oil company executives...?

Yes, which is why he shouldn't cost much. I'd rather pony up the money then the players. He's miscast as an ace but he'd look fine every 5th day at DS. Since his dead arm this year he's been solid so don't look at his 2007 year numbers without the context of his history and what he's done since coming off the DL.

ESPN has a headline that reads "Player alleges that steroids already are in golf". I clicked on the link, partly to see which player was making the allegations.

Turns out it was Gary.

Jon Heyman at si.com jumped on the Dallas Morning News bus and countered Loney/ Kershaw with Loney/ Meloan. He also mentioned Dye possibly to LA.

I hate this time of year.

36
Just call him "the Texas first baseman". He's closely related to "the Colorado center fielder" and "the Chicago White Sox left-handed starter."

40 - We are starting to tread into rule 5 territory here. It is difficult to discuss the philosophy of politics without discussing the activity of the polis itself.

Yes, the Rangers will demand a high price for Teixeira: Loney and Highland Park-ex Clayton Kershaw. If you are Dodgers GM Ned Colletti, you have to ask yourself: Is one World Series ring worth that? What about two?

Mark Teixeira is worth two World Series rings? I want him on my team!

I have to disagree with you Jon. If Teixiera could be had for Loney and a lesser prospect than Kershaw (say, Meloan or Dewitt) you have to do it.

Teixiera is an elite player, and as the Dodgers payroll slims down with more and more young players, they'll have more and more money to play with. Loney is a good player, but unless he develops some power, he'll never be a superstar at first.

With the lack of power in the organization, the Dodgers might be better served by going for Teixiera, then filling first base with the best hitter on the market after 2008.

44
I should say that you can call me "The guy who blogs at The Griddle."

I should say that you can call me "The guy who blogs at The Griddle."

What about "Bob"...? (A terrible movie, BTW)

Am I reading this right that Teixeira will be a free agent at the end of the 2007 season AND his agent is Scott Boras? Or did Teix recently sign a new extension?
vr, Xei

40. I would take oil company executives for 8 years over professors forever.

36 I don't know. I've heard and read a lot of people saying and writing "James Looney". It's a little infuriating, and I don't know why.

gpellamjr want Philosopher Kings to rule the world.

That should make certain baseball bloggers happy.

50 - It is my understanding that he has one more year of arbitration prior to free agency after '08.

51
It cuts like a knife.

54. So, it would likely be a 1-1/2 year rental? hmmmmmm... Tough call, glad I don't have to make it. vr, Xei

I hate it when journalists play fantasy baseball with real players. Everyone thinks they're a GM...

47 Interesting. It brings a couple of questions into focus. Without even getting into the dollars involved (let's assume that the Dodgers can afford him)...

Short term questions:

What is the expected difference between Loney's production and Teixeira's?

What is the expected difference between Meloan's production, and, say, Eric Stults', or whoever Meloan would replace on the Dodgers?

Does the fact that Meloan is a relief pitcher make him the Guillermo Mota of this deal, if you will? Is he, by his nature, a fungible commodity?

Long term question:

A nice part about having Loney is that if he continues to produce at his current pace, he'll be locked in as a quite serviceable first baseman until, what, 2012n If the Dodgers fail to sign Teixeira to a long-term deal after the 2008 season, what other free agents or Dodger prospects could be available?

Anyone want to play "Pick on Plaschke" today?

And I quote: "How does a guy with a career slugging percentage of .367 fall so suddenly to .333?"

Um, that'd be ON-BASE percentage, Bill. Sorry all those anti-DePo columns didn't teach you the difference.

56 - At worst, yes, 1 1/2 seasons. And Teixeira is a stud too. We're not talking about an Adam Dunn, or someone else with noticeable weaknesses. Teixeira is a terrfic hitter and very good defensive player (albeit at first).

I certainly wouldn't give up Loney and Kershaw, but Loney and anyone else not from the group of [Billingsley, Kemp, Martin, Kershaw] is rather tempting.

58 According to PECOTA's 2008 numbers

Loney: .294/.352/.479
Tex: .289/.385/.547(in Texas, adjust accordingly)

Usual PECOTA disclaimers apply, but those look like decent estimates. (I'd probably give Loney a higher average and keep the slug the same).

If you do look at the PECOTA numbers, this trade suddenly doesn't seem that great. Going by VORP, which is park adjusted, Teixiera is worth only about a win more than Loney next year. Now, a win is a win, but is it worth sacrificing Loney for it?

It might be better to hold onto Loney for now, then trade him if you can get a hold of Miguel Cabrera (in 2009) or A-Rod (after this year), or someone similar.

From ItD:

Furcal, SS
Pierre, CF
Martin, C
Gonzo, LF
Betemit, 3B
Loney, 1B
Ethier, RF
Martinez, 2B
Billingsley, P

62 We keep getting so close to the lineup I want.

62 Martinez? Really?

64 No word on a roster move involving Abreu, but if he's still on the team, I'd rather start Abreu than Martinez if Kent needs a day off.

Questions for Grittle:

1. Which player contributes more on offense: Kemp or Pierre?

2. Which player is the better centerfielder: Kemp or Pierre?

3. If "Kemp, Kemp", why is Pierre playing centerfield everyday?

4. If "Pierre, Pierre", please retire now.

5. If "Pierre, Kemp", please retire now.

6. If "Kemp, Pierre", do you really think "Pierre offense + Pierre defense" is larger than "Kemp offense + Kemp defense"? If so, please retire now.

Nomar now has almost the exact same number of at bats between home and away. I don't think I've ever seen such a discrepancy between home and away splits. No wonder he still gets cheered at home, he's still productive at home.
Home-332/392/396/788
Away-217/246/271/517
All I can say is wow.

61
That is interesting. I started doing the research to back up my initial thought that I would trade Loney for Tex and was surprised to see that I agreed with Jon after the research.

Boom Boom moves upto the 5th spot. I always find it interesting when the backup hits higher in the order then the regular. Wish I was going to the game today, I smell a convincing win.

Bad move trading any significant prospect for Tex. He's a rental. Period. There'll be no way to sign him early as Boras clients always test the market.

What're the thoughts on Ken Gurnick's suggestion of trading D. Young?

Notes: Ethier flourishing under Mueller

Interesting article about Andre Ethier's improvement since Bill Mueller took over as batting coach for those who haven't checked Dodgers.com yet.

http://tinyurl.com/2cy6v6

61 and 67

Agreed that it's interesting. Next question: Teixeira brings an additional "win" over Loney in that he'll provide about 10 runs more in offense, on average, right?

But is there reason to believe that because he represents such an upgrade in slugging percentage -- 75 points or so -- and this is where the Dodgers are lacking, does it stand to reason that he might be an especially good fit for the Dodgers? Is it possible that for that reason, for the Dodgers specifically, Teixeira might represent an upgrade of more than one win?

If yes -- if it could be two wins this year -- I think I could get on board. If not -- if it's just a one-win upgrade -- I'm not a fan of it.

71 is worded poorly. Sorry for being sloppy.

67

Nomar Garciaparra, meet Ervin Santana.

Even 788 OPS isn't that good for a third baseman, though, is it?

-----------------------

I think, as a general rule, it's a bad idea to trade cheap, young good players for older more expensive players, even if they're slightly better. But if the older player is significantly better ... maybe.

I wouldn't be horrified at a trade of Loney for Teixeira straight up, though I wouldn't like it, in large part for irrational reasons. I sure would be horrified if a real prospect was included in such a deal.

51s' Hernandez, 42, still at it long after life-threatening issue

>>> "Hopefully I'll have a couple more outings and go from there," he said. "(The Dodgers) told my agent and myself to 'get your arm ready and we'll try to get you up as soon as possible.' " <<<

http://www.lvrj.com/sports/8569482.html

71 The difference is that Tex would be moving from a launching pad to Dodger Stadium. That could cost him power and drop his average down.

69 Again, signed through 2008.

73 Do you consider Meloan a real prospect?

Has Mark Teixeira personally told Evan Grant to get him traded? Holy smokes, the man has made it his life's work to get the guy traded to the Dodgers?

I think I need to write another e-mail. This guy is a tool. Kershaw and Loney?

Since Matt Kemp's return to the big club June 8, the Dodgers have played 34 games (Dodgers have gone 19-15 in those games). Here is how the OF playing time has been distributed:

Pierre: 34 starts, 157 PA, .317/.349/.379
Gonzo: 30 starts (+1 at DH; 33 games total), 132 PA, .284/.371/.457
Kemp: 19 starts (33 games), 93 PA, .368/.409/.575
Ethier: 19 starts (33 games), 93 PA, .364/.473/.506

75 I didn't think about that.

OK, since Tex represents an upgrade of only (about) one win, I am officially off the Loney-for-Teixeira train. Alert the media.

76-For me, absolutely. I saw Meloan in the Freeway Series and he showed off quite possibly the nastiest curveball I've ever seen. He will be a great reliever along the lines of Broxton.

76

Meloan, yes, I guess I consider him a real prosect, because of all the buzz about him being able to help this year, but maybe better to ask a real prospect maven. He is only a relief pitcher ... but if they traded Meloan it would be awful if they turned around and traded for Dotel or something ... well that would be awful anyway.

If Loney played in Texas, could he hit 30-40 homeruns/yr? If the answer is some form of no, then I want Teixeira.

80 I've never seen Meloan pitch, but I have seen Broxton.

I love the Bull as much as anyone -- but if Jonathan Broxton was the key player for any game-changing talent, I would make that trade in a heartbeat.

Broxton is great at his job, fun to watch, has a great nickname, and if you emptied out his body cavity, you could fit three of me inside of him, but he is a relief pitcher. Unless he pitches like Gagne v. 2003, he is tradable.

82-He'd probably hit 20+ homers with around 50 doubles.

47 - If you're suggesting a trade that's not the Loney-Kershaw trade that Grant keeps pushing, then you're not disagreeing with me per se. It's the package that I think is over-the-top.

73
No it's not, but it is a far cry from the worse hitter in baseball and the 4th best option at 3b which has been touted by one particular baseball organization.
A novel approach would be to put Nomar on the DL before a long road trip.

84 Loney's current 162-game averages are 25 doubles and 15 HR, and he was recently on a power spree that most people think he can't keep up.

So I get the increase from 15 to 20 HR. He cools off a bit, but Texas masks it.

But do you really think he could double his doubles production?

77 I think you're all missing the larger point here.

Mark Teixeira = Two World Series Rings!

Small price to pay, if you ask me. We should throw in Meloan.

Nomar is the third best option at third base, so I do disagree with BP there. I don't know who Sheehan considers the other option to be (besides Betemit and LaRoche).

But Nomar is not the worst hitter in the major leagues. He should not, however, be playing this much. He'd be a superb utility guy. One of the best.

He actually is the worse hitter in the league on the road. Abreu was the other option.
Bob or Regarfield has any Los Angeles Dodger ever had a difference of 280 points in OPS between home and away at the end of a season who had more then 300 plate appearances? I think were looking at something historical here.

all i know is that i like many DTers have been fallowing the progress of the young pups for a WHILE now & reading rumors isn't fun sometimes.

The BP idea that we won't finish ahead of Arizona's ragtag collection of journeyman pitchers and rookies can be explained two ways:

1. The hopes that they look clever for picking the Dbax in the case that all of the rookies explode.

2. Pure Dodger-hating

Stadium in which Nomar is OPSing the best in 2007...?

PETCO Park. Go Figure.

92 Or they could be noticing that the rookies have been terrible all year, and that they're far too talented to stink all year.

It's funny how we take top notch relievers for granted some times, remember when we had bullpen woes a few years back any one!?

90
Not a Dodger, but he played at Dodger Stadium.

Behold Leon Wagner of the Angels in 1963.

Road OPS - 937
Home OPS - 658

Difference of 279.

Wagner's home/road split of 1963 was one of the greatest ever seen I believe.

24 homers on the road and 2 at home.

Has this already been posted? From Yahoo.

"The Yankees are interested in acquiring Betemit from the Dodgers, the New York Post reports. The Yanks tried to get Betemit last year from the Braves, but he ended up being traded to LA, and now they are trying again. The Dodgers are looking for bullpen help and Scott Proctor's name has been floated around, but they are not too high on any of the Yanks' relievers."

we have something pretty special in our bullpen again Let's keep it that way! with a few more in the farm.

The Yankees are interested in acquiring Betemit from the Dodgers

As a DH? Or a 2B?

I wouldn't be surprised if Betemit were traded for a reliever. In fact, I think he's among the Dodgers most likely to be traded this season.

97 If this meant that the LaRoche is now ready to step in, perhaps I still think someone like Hull or Meloan should be given a shot.

I do understand, especially given the idea that Andy is going to be the guy.

100 Don't know. Wouldn't be a bad deal if we could get one of their minor league pitchers. I think Laroche could more than fill Betemit's shoes.

92
As the pitching staff currently stands I would not argue with your description but by Aug 1st I think you'll see an improvement in the rotation and the everyday lineup will start to jell. It is not a jump for me to think that Arizona is a contender. The best scenario for me is that they move some their talented kids in an attempt to win the division but fall short. Even as the 1st wave has underperformed (Quentin, Drew, Jackson, Young) they have a 2nd wave ready to throw at the NL in Upton, Carter, Gonzalez and the recently signed number one pick from 2006 is opening some eyes.

trading someone like Betemit i wouldn't mind at all, of course we'd have to get some one of equal or greater value

Ned won't trade Betemit this season. He's to important to the current team.

trading someone like Betemit i wouldn't mind at all, of course we'd have to get some one of equal or greater value

We probably wouldn't, given Management's apparent lack of appreciation for Betemit's value.

How about instead of Betemit we trade Nomar and pay part of his salary. In the spirit of this morning's post, we should ask for Mariano Rivera in exchange, right?

95 & 98 It's not that they are taken for granted. It's that it's nearly impossible to predict who will be good and who won't, who'll rise to the top and who'll fall off the cliff.

I like Broxton and I hope to like Meloan, but if they are in the vein of Rivera-Hoffman-etc and show continued success year after year after year, they will be the exception, not the rule... and because of that, if we can get a game-changing talent for these kind of guys, I think you've got to do it.

I have to say that it is pretty sad to see oil executives, of all people, raised to a higher level than professors. Dark days on Dodger Thoughts.

Rivera would be a good seventh inning pitcher for the Dodgers. I'm a bit nervous of using him later than that because I don't think he has the experience needed. Fortunately, Luis Gonzalez wouldn't be available to hit squib singles off of him.

todays line up via ItD:

Furcal, SS

Pierre, CF

Martin, C

Gonzo, LF

Betemit, 3B

Loney, 1B

Ethier, RF

Martinez, 2B

Billingsley, P
______________________________________________

Martin is back in action witch is cool & i've heard Ethier is tearing it up of late.

96
Thanks Bob

109
Daniel probably doesn't remember back in 1990 when Vin went into a long paean over recently retired Union Oil exec Fred Hartley.

109
Dark indeed.

I'd like to shop Jeff Kent to the Yankees, or Nomar.

Why the idea that LA can only trade young players?

{106}

i stand corrected how soon do i forget he hits jacks & gets on base for us.

Statement that I never dreamed I'd be making:

"If only we had signed Gil Meche ..."

(He has gotten hit hard in his past two starts, though.)

Bonds not in the lineup again in Chicago.

103 I think both in LA and Arizona, it is interesting to see if the organizations plan to have teams filled with home grown talent and still be able to compete. The Dodgers do have the advantage to be able to go out and sign free agents but then Arizona could be considered to have a different advantage of not having to sell 3.5 million seats a year to keep the money flowing in.

In some ways, it is probably more to the norm of what the Arizona guys are doing this year vs. Martin, Ethier, Billingsley and Broxton in their second seasons and Kemp and Loney in their what appears to be permanent status on the big club. Generally if you get an All-Star, a reliable regular (Ethier and I know Brock will contest this if Ethier is playing a corner OF spot), a potential top line starter and a solid setup guy, you should be thrilled, but to also have another pretty solid regular prospect (Loney) and a high ceiling guy (Kemp) also on the team should make you delirous because that just doesn't happen too often in baseball.

Those six names (who cost less than Brett Tomko) should be on Ned's voice mail as if you are asking for anyone of these guys, please hang up now.

They represent possibly the greatest flow of talent since the '70s and while none have exploded like Fernando or Piazza, I think this is a special time in Dodger land and I hope the powers that be recognize it.

Why the idea that LA can only trade young players?

Because Ned wants to win this year, and it's Common Knowledge™ that young players can't play as well as old players in the post-season.

120

But I want to win every year. They could really get something for Kent while his numbers still look pretty good.

Play Betemit at second.

In that article on Ethier, Grady Little says that Nomar could easily take up soccer if he couldn't play baseball any more. How about after this season?

120 - Maybe Ned read the print edition of SI last week, which reported that on the past five World Series champions, there were (if I'm remembering correctly) only five starting position players total who were 35 or older.

Edmonds and Toguchi were two of them, I think. You can figure out the rest. DHs and pitchers not included.

" If you do look at the PECOTA numbers, this trade suddenly doesn't seem that great. Going by VORP, which is park adjusted, Teixiera is worth only about a win more than Loney next year. Now, a win is a win, but is it worth sacrificing Loney for it? "

Actually, PECOTA has Teixeira at 23 WARP (park-adjusted) and Loney at 15 WARP from 2008-2011, which is more like 2 wins per year. To be sure, Teixeira will cost about $ 50-55 million more in that timeframe and maybe that money could be better diverted elsewhere. But PECOTA also assumes Loney's Isolated Power jumps to 190 levels (and he hits 17-20 HRs pr yr) from 2008-2011. If, however, Loney's power stays closer to the 150 ISO level he's had over 670 PA's in Las Vegas, then knock off another win per yr from his estimate.
If Loney is a .300/.370/.500 guy from here on, that's a fine solution at 1b at a cheap price for the future. If he's more like a .285/.355/.440 guy (which he very well could be), then it's not worth a lot of hand-wringing about trading him. My guess is that he's somewhere in between meaning that if the second prospect involved to a deal for Tex isn't too weighty, then let's consider as a reasonable idea.

115 Because that is what we have. We're not the Padres or the Giants, they don't have any young players to deal.

Also, Jeff Kent is having a pretty good year for us and for those to dismiss him I think are doing so without really looking at his performance.

Betemit isn't going to play everyday short of Nomar getting hurt and even if that were to happen, LaRoche would be back. He's got a job as a spot starter and lefty pinch hitter for now.

I don't know where he plays if he were traded to the Yanks unless they think he can play first base.

Roberto Hernandez called up, Tony Abreu optioned.

We need Roberto Hernandez to be good. And not in a "winning" way. In a "don't trade anybody for a reliever" kind of way.

Go Roberto!

125
The Yankees have GAPING holes at short and third!

I really don't think Ned has any interest in Teixeira and it is strictly a fabrication of the writer. I do believe he's talking to Texas but they get caught up in who they think we are interested in. It could be as simple as bringing in Benoit to help out the bullpen.

It is easier to trade cheap youngster then expensive veterans on the downside of their careers. Do you think anyone is clamoring for Kent or Nomar compared to the guys calling for Kemp/Loney and so forth.

Ominous news out of Tampa - Al Reyes (he of the 17 saves this year for the DRays) was just activated from the DL today.

130
That's good news for Rays. They need somebody in the bullpen who can get people out.

118 Bonds is pouting because he's in a slump. He said he'll play tomorrow.

I'm sure a guy who was released by a team who is trying desperately to get help in the bullpen is the answer to our own bullpen needs. Maybe he's a NL kind of guy because he was okay last year for NY. That was my empty glass knocking heads with my full glass.

120

Neds made some bone head moves but i think he's a smart guy & knows he'll be crucified if he trades top young talent for a playoff run rental some of his quotes scare me some times i must admit.

129 It does happen, though. Justice. Finley.

139 - Is that Old Friend Al Reyes?

114. Oh please, it wasn't a straight up oil executives versus professors, it was oil executives with the actual ability to get rid of them versus being stuck with professors with no option. To me, the better option is always choice.

As to the debate about Loney and Teixeira, everyone has pretty much agreed with Jon, Teixeira is likely to be better than Loney over the next two years, and most everyone agrees that Kershaw is too high a price to pay for the difference in performance plus the cheap extra years of Loney, so what is everyone arguing about anyway?

125

So, because "that's what we have," we have to make stupid trades? I don't agree.

Also, Kent has been good, but he is still being out OPS'd by Betemit, and I know Betemit can at least make every play at 2B that Kent can.

It doesn't have to be the Yankees. Trade Kent for two good prospects and we won't have to worry about being stuck with his corpse next year.

Potential 2008 Dodger lineup (if JP/Nomar were benched)

SS Furcal 10+ HR (Hu in 09)
C Martin 15+ HR
1B Loney 15+ HR
CF Kemp 30ish HR?
3B LaRoche 20 HR
RF Either 15+ HR
2B Betemit 20 HR (or Abreu)
LF D Young 15 HR?
7 position players homegrown (8 if you insert Abreu, all 9 after Hu takes over for Furcal)
This is a playoff contending team for the next 5-6 years at least, right?
Has this happened before in the modern era of baseball?

And where is the shortage of power? All the youngsters can hit for extra base power.

I mean, 130.

136 - Yes, indeedy. Circa 2000 and 2001.

126 For those who wonder about these things, the Dodgers only had 38 players on their 40 man roster so they don't have to DFA anyone to put Hernandez on the team.

If you are in Vegas, you could see the acrobatic pairing of Abreu and Hu again, they have not been paired since their days in Vero Beach.

137 I don't know that anyone is arguing. It's been a very civil discussion as we try to figure out what kind of trade -- Loney plus who -- would be worth it if we received Teixeira.

142 - I'm seeing Vegas in Tacoma on Friday night (assuming the weather allows it). I'm going to get Hu and LaRoche to sign the ball I got Loney and Kemp's signatures on previously this year.

Teixeira's home/away splits are pretty even this year. I was surprised to find, when I looked it up, that he is actually hitting better on the road this year. vr, Xei

138 No, that's not why we have to make trades, I argue the stupid part because the evidence (I know lets wait until 2009) as yet to prove that anyone dealt has really amounted to anything, get made. I said teams ask for our top guys because that is the starting point when you call the Dodgers, you don't call and ask for Delwyn Young, you ask for Matt Kemp, doesn't mean you get him but you do ask.

Betemit is a higher OPS than Kent, yes he does .844 to .832 in less plate appearances. Jeff Kent is still among the top second base men in the league, I don't know why people want him off the Dodgers.

i was watching Stranger Than Fiction last night & i'm not surprised by how good of an actor Will Ferrell is, nice movie too.

142 Abreu and Hu were paired at Jacksonville last year.

146

I don't want Kent off the Dodgers, but I'd rather he be off the Dodgers than anyone whose name has come up in trade rumours.

Not that I think Colletti would ever really trade his mustache twin.

146 I don't advocate trading Kent, but here are some reasons.

Betemit might play 2B better than Kent without significant decrease in offense.

Betemit costs less than Kent; if budget is a factor, and if my previous point is true, then Kent's salary might be better applied elsewhere.

That's all I got. Not sure point one is correct.

I'm going to get Hu and LaRoche to sign the ball I got

that sounds aggressive i hope i'm miss reading your comment. :o)

How long will it take Teixeira to adjust to the National League? If it is half a season, good by 2007.

I would want Teixeira at third and Loney at first. I would guess both LaRoche and Betemit could play first and if the Yankees want Betemit perhaps the pitcher they would caugh up could go to Texas along with LaRoche and Young for Teixeira. If Teixeira can play third maybe MacDonald could be included.

145
Gotta love this split. Teixeira has hit 153 home runs with 112 coming left handed and only 41 right handed but he has an OPS right handed of 949 compared to 891 left handed. Go figure.

now that i think about it i'm kind of surprised that Grady didn't pencil in Betemit at 2nd instead of RM2™

152 - I got a baseball signed by Loney, Kemp, and a few others earlier this year. I'm going to take that same ball and try to get LaRoche, Abreu, and Hu to sign as well. :)

I think DT day should have been staged after the trading deadline. It is going to be a free for all.

Canuck and gpellamjr - Thanks for the thoughtful responses above. I couldn't respond because I got sucked in to some meetings.

Also, if profs were part of the ruling aristocracy presumably some of their tenure requirements would shift from publishing to service. I am not sure if that's an improvement.

155 - Betemit's position on the Dodgers is thirdbase. He can play others, but I would venture to say it is his best position right now. Ramon can play anywhere, and he's most assuredly a better secondbaseman than Betemit.

With Abreu gone, Ramon figures to get a nice uptick in playing time. Does anyone know what kind of shortstop Abreu is? If he's a capable backup, I would've much preferred to just see Ramon bite the dust.

one more point on my 147 the dude that wrote that movie must have been Schizo or suffered an anxiety attack at one point in there life cause he did good work.

Question: can Nomar play 2B?

157 - I can go to the Dodger game the night of July 31, but I'm a little scared to leave the computer unattended.

Does Nomar have a no-trade clause?

162
I have to work on the night of July 31. There will likely be a bunch of trades that I will be trying to squeeze in that night.

Last year, I went on vacation during the trading deadline.

i really hope Billingsley has a good outing today

163 - Yes.

i really hope Billingsley has a good outing today

I suppose you probably want the Dodgers to win, too.

167 - Maybe Billingsley is on his fantasy team.

I really hope Matt Kemp hits 2 homers today.

167

yes

Wait a second. How does a catcher throw out a baserunner trying to steal when there is a 3-2 count with 2 outs...?

those of you stuck in the office Russell Martin threw an absolute Bee Bee to 2nd to catch Victorino stealing.

164 When you say the night of July 31, do you mean 1 pm? Because when I think "night," I don't tend to think 1 pm, but that might just be me.

170 - It was 3-1, wasn't it?

170

maybe it was a typo from gameday, are you fallowing the game thrue gameday?

It was 3-1, wasn't it?

Oh, maybe Gameday confused me.

Allright--no station to station.

172 I just checked and you are correct, the deadline is 1:00 p.m. PDT but as I recall the Maddux and Lugo deals were not announced until the following hour, check out the thread that day.

The top of the lineup has been en fuego lately.

175 The pitch on which Martin threw him out was the 2nd strike.

Rabbits. Basepaths.

162 I might go that night too, I would think by then any rants and raves would have died down short of some type of monster deal being made.

Pitchers who pay a lot of attention to baserunners are my new pet peeve.

Is there anyone at the ballpark or following the game who doesn't think Pierre will attempt a steal here?

Rabbit Batted In' for Martin!!

nice bit of hitting for Russell going the other way getting a hit & an RBI 1-0 Dodgers. I'll be back i gotta go run an eran real quick.

That's what I'm talking about.

Well, the pitcher will think the same way, so sometimes managers won't let Pierre steal and let the pitcher play mind games with himself.

In D4P's world, all pitchers are Tall Chris Young, Greg Maddux, and Mike Mussina.

freeze on a line drive pierre, not liking gonzo in the 4 hole.

188 Though If Gonzo lined out, it's hardly his fault it was caught, right?

187
If those are the 3 pitchers who don't pay attention to runners, that says a lot. To me, at least.

If Mike Mussina were on the Dodgers, everybody but Jon would hate him.

The last pitch had a pFX of 10.9"! 91 mph!

1Why do people hate Mike Mussina?

I've noticed that Betemit tends to struggle when the pFX exceeds 10.6".

how many homeruns are we going to let howard hit

Ryan Howard can hit a baseball very hard.

question: is ryan howard big?

193
He complains a lot. He complains when he's taken out of games. He complains when the defense isn't perfect. He complains when his routine is disrupted by a few minutes. He complains about run support.

However, Peter Gammons has a golden idol made of him.

Ryan Howard, go eat some Subway.

Okay, I'll be the first.

Dodgers - 3 hits equals 1 run.
Phillies - 1 swing equals tie game.

I've liked Mike Mussina ever since he warmed up without Cito Gaston's approval during the all-star game in his home town. Only a jerk like Gaston would not pitch the home town guy during an all-star game and so he deserved to be shown up.

201
Gaston told Mussina he wouldn't pitch. And because of that whole fiasco, the All-Star Game disintegrated into "let's get everybody to play" and the All-Star game went from a Moliere style farce to becoming the Gong Show.

I don't like how the All-Star game is nowadays, but that doesn't mean people should be taking shots at the Gong Show.

Calm down, Chad

What's worse, giving up a hit on 0-2 or walking a guy you had 0-2.

Right in Gonso's glove!

202
Big difference in getting everyone to play and playing the players from the host team.

I wanted to look up Martin's SB% (84% by the way) and I noticed that the three people on the team with the most PA's all have sub .700 OPS. I wondered what those 1075 ABs {1170 PAs) added up to. Piercalciaparra have a combined line of .280/.326/.345/.671 in enough Plate Appearances to make two full seasons. It is like playing with one hand tied behind your back to have them 1-2-3. Sad.

207
Cal Ripken started the game and got three ABs.

You can try all you want ToyCannon, but I'm backing Gaston instead of Mussina all the way.

Piercalciaparra

AKA the "Sub 700 Club"

Nice, we get to the top of the order for next inning.

question: is ryan howard big?

He's big in the ESPN strongest man competition kind of way

212 I could see a cross-promotion event where you have to hit a homer, then lift an increasingly heavy Atlas Stone at each base. ;)

From the August 31, 2004 Toronto Star:

The New York Yankees might want to pencil in pitcher Mike Mussina for some sensitivity training after he complained about Sunday's pre-game tribute to Jays broadcaster Tom Cheek.

Mussina was visibly upset that the touching ceremony, which left hardly a dry eye in the SkyDome, ran an extra 15 minutes longer than planned.

"I congratulate the man who got 4,300 games, but sitting for 15 extra minutes before the game was supposed to start - that was worse," Mussina was quoted as saying in New York's Newsday.

214 The Yankees have to make sure that Mussina is not scheduled when they have their Old Timer's Day or else he will have bad things to say about Whitey Ford and Yogi Berra.

[205] it depends. how many pitches for each scenario, and what kind of hit (single/double/triple)? bases empty?

Greg Brock, your fears never came close to being realized.

"You try to stay away from that," he said. "When you do stuff like that, you're always risking injury to a position player that's totally unnecessary if you can avoid it. We've got guys who can do it. James Loney can do it. He could probably get outs some days better than the other guys."

Indeed, Loney considered himself a better pitching prospect than hitting first baseman until his senior year of high school, when his bat caught up with his arm. Scouts were torn which role offered him the best future, but Dodgers scouting director Logan White picked Loney in the first round as a first baseman.

Loney said he didn't volunteer to pitch on Tuesday night but felt he didn't need to.

"They know I'm ready," he said, drawing laughter from Chad Billingsley at the neighboring locker.

chad has no idea where the ball is going when it leaves his hand

whoa, great play by Martin!

He lost the ball momentarily in the crisp blue sky & then recovered nicely

218 - I disagree. On Gameday, it looks like he's been placing the ball pretty well. That 2B that Rowand hit looked pretty far outside.

Anyway, Kemp would have caught that.

i'm listening to chinese democracy right now. oh my god is it terrible.

nice inning.

221 - Surprised?

Okay, Gameday is stuck with Rowand at the plate in the third. What has happened?

[223] not one bit.

the one bad thing about Russell Martins play is that he dropped some poor fellows food as he crashed in to the protective fence, that's like 35,45 bucks right there, shame on you Russell!

224. Martin made a great catch to end the inning but the Dodgers couldn´t get a hit and now we´re in the top 4th.

224 He doubled in Howard on a 3-2 pitch.

Martin then made a nice play to catch a foul ball.

Dodgers went out 1-2-3 in the bottom of the 3rd.

224 he doubled in Howard.

71 pitches for Chad through three.

230 And people wonder why they are looking for pitching.

221 I thought Axl was still working on it?

224

1 out in the 4th & a squip single by a phillies player with the pitcher coming up to bat it should be a descent inning for Bills.

233 Shhhh, no jinx.

I about to lump Billingsley in with the Hendricksons/Tomkos of the world.

231 - Billingsley aside, what's weird is how slow some people are to pick up on the fact that the Dodgers need starting pitching.

Arguably, in just the past month, the Dodgers have replaced Randy Wolf and Hong-Chih Kuo on the roster with James Loney and Matt Kemp. Is it any wonder that the team's trade amibitions have shifted?

It would be a real relief if Miller can get his act together.

Also what is the deal with Dodger pitchers and shoulder injuries this year? Elbert,Schmidt,Wolf,Tsao

231

i havent been around for a few days but didn't we have a nice 5 game run? i understand the sentiment on bringing a new pitcher (i wouldn't do it) but i understand it, i feel like we gotta be patient.

Bless her heart!

With a bonnet!

237
It's all Conte's fault!

239 - deleted/rule 7.

239. Thanks...(I think)

Come on 3.5, hit a ball out.

236 I think there is an aversion to any thoughts about getting anybody because of the fear of who you the Dodgers might have to give up.

BTW - Ervin "I love Angel Stadium" Santana was just sent down to Salt Lake City. Expect their lefty yo-yo, but he has done well when asked, Joe Saunders to be brought up.

82 pitches for Chad, but he has to go at least one more before Roberto Houlton or whoever comes in.

242 Sorry. Better version.

Hendrickson and Tomko are aging, hopeless pitchers with a long track record of failure. Chad is a young pitcher with great stuff that just needs some tuning. They are nowhere near the same thing.

238 I think the Dodgers scored something like 8 runs a game during that run, only Penny pitched well.

Hooray!

3.5!

At this point I'm wondering if Garciaparra's career will tail-off like Roberto Alomar's career and be out of baseball by the time he's 37.

I didn't think that Plaschke could be so brutally honest about likable player of Nomar's fame.

237

aside from Steiner everybody kind of figured Tsao was gonna get hurt.

WOO! Ethier helps the Dodgers take the lead with a four bagger. woot!

236 - I share those fears, of course. I'm just saying that the media outside of Los Angeles seems to think we're still looking for offense. More offense could help, but we've got different fish to poach, now.

Andre Ethier!

i didn't realize that mueller and pierre were related. the scrappy family tree is a veritable aspen grove. oh, and go ethier!

For the record, I called Ethier's bomb.

244 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Before 3.5 went deep, I was thinking to myself that if I were Kendrick, I would seriously consider walking Ethier to get to Martinez and the pitcher's spot.

Theres some offense!

It looks like Bills gets really nice run suppert

257 But it's hard to load 'me out with only one out. Especially for a 23-year old pitcher.

Man, I love three-run HRs.

That 3 run rally killer is something I could learn to enjoy.

260
That's Conventional Wisdom speaking. I'd rather face two pitchers with the bases loaded than a 4th outfielder with runners on 1st and 2nd.

244

you called it Brock!

Sitting around waiting for the 3-run homer is not as bad as people say it is.

I'm actually quite fond of it.

264 I actually just begged for it out of frustration.

But I'll take it!

hmmm Ethier - HOT Kemp - HOT ummmmm what to do, what to do...

Oh, play a slumping Gonzo and a whatever Pierre everyday no matter what.

I wonder what Billy Muller yelled to Andre between those pitches!!

Oh how I wish we could trade Pierre and Nomar for Javier Vazquez.

Whenever Andre Ethier comes up I think about the Seinfeld when Kramer is calling 900 nunbers from Jerry's phone and using the name Andre as his alias.

Jerry: Hey Andre, get the hell off the phone...!

Only Ryan Howard stands between Chad and Win Qualification.

Bills muscled one up to 94MPH to strike out Utley 2 outs with Howard at the plate

267
Yep. Management pretty much ranks our outfielders thusly:

1. Pierre
.
.
.
.
2. LuGo
3. Kemp/Ethier

272 - If you could play these 2 everyday that would be great...

Thanks,

The Management.

wow

Billingsley over the 100-pitch mark.

10 pitches to give up a single - shucks.

Billingsley goes two more scoreless innings, then Beimel, Broxton, Saito finish off the game. We stay at least one game ahead of the Pads.

Ryan Howard ONLY hit a single in this at bat i'm sure Bills will gladly take it.

276
Better that than his 4th dinger of the series! I feel thankful.

247 - I agree. Chad just has to get more consistent. We need Chad to give us 6 innings if possible but at least finish the 5 inning stint. As far as Loney for Tex-I would only do it if it was straight up or class B prospect not someone like Kersaw or D. Young. With Furcal in LA for at least another couple years-I would consider Hu or Abreau to package for Tex. However, like other posters have stated, we really need a dependable 3rd or 4th starter to compete down the stretch with the Pads. Having 40% of your games where you may need to score 6+ runs a game is too much pressure to put on the offense that doesn't rely on the long ball. Any word on Wolf's progress and prognosis for return?

All hits that we've given up have been to gonzo and pierre. Do with that what you will.

280 Best case scenario that I see, he pitches in LA in two weeks against the D-Backs.

That means Tomko and Hendrickson get two more starts each.

Go at them Bills!

Anyone warming in the bullpen?

284 Seanez.

Bills you got 2 outs, just throw something soft & out side for a duibler & get out of this inning.

2 out rally come on Bills your better than that.

Rats.

gutsy performance from Chad. This Phillies team can mash.

289 Nate, always sticks up for his kids.

Let's hope the top of the order can bring Billingsley a win.

289

i feel like i have to provide an opposing viewpoint when there are people ready to lump him into the tomko/hendrickson folder.

Whats up with Ryan Howard deciding to play defense today?

289,290

It looks like Grady wants Bills to go out there one more inning it looks like.

Outside of the Flyin' Hawaiian CS, the walks have hurt.

The D's have hit so many on the nose this guy could be throwing batting practice. But it doesn't feel like their day.

Ryan Howard has more runs than hits. He is playing really well tonight. Is there a rule against stating the obvious?

291. I don't see why he deserves a win.

294 Bills is at 113 pitches. No way. It will be Rudy with the game tied or LA leading.

Hey, just curious: has anyone seen Juan Pierre smile this year? He always seems so serious.

300 Too busy working hard to smile.

292 For me, Chad is young pitcher, he will put up games like he did against San Diego but its easy to challenge a team without a lot of power, when he keeps seeing Utley, Howard, Burrell, etc., he may try to be a little finer. It will take time for him to settle in and get that consistency.

294 - After using 113 pitches to get 15 outs? I can't believe it.

Either at the moment:
.301 / .367 / .459 / .826

298 I didn't say anything about "deserves". I hope he gets one. I don't understand what's confusing about that.

(FWIW, it wouldn't matter if it was Tomko pitching, I'd hope the same thing.)

294

I'll take that back he was still seating down when the other Dodgers were running to the field.

14.4 pitches / inning for Kendrick.

Pretty meek inning there.

I must admit if we were playing Kent and perhaps someone for Pierre, it would be an amazingly deep order, with no slack space but the pitcher, and Bills can be deceptive.
I know, thats at least two ifs.

We need the bats to keep pounding. 8 runs will win this game.

my mind is telling me the Phills bullpen isn't anything to write home about so i think we'll be o.k. today.

Rudy Seanez is the man.

Y'all are killing me with your optimism. Pessimism wins games people.

Bless that Seanez; even if he blows up tomorrow he has been a positive surprise.

Rudy Seanez proving Jon's point about relief pitchers.

Jon - you should update that piece and publish it in a Fungos article, I think you can use the bullpen construction of Dodgers and Padres as examples of mixing and matching guys that you find during the off-season.

Just a suggestion, but I think it was really a nice article.

Pleasant surprise:

Seanez:2007::Saito:2006?

keep em coming! We have to match brute force with brute force!

I'm not certain that Texas would necessarily want Loney in a Texeira deal. They need pitching, pitching, pitching. If the Dodgers can rent Texeira and deal with the 2009 1B with whoever might be available, Texas can limp through the rest of this season with whoever - how about Nomar? - and deal with the 2008 1B later. Texas' asking price might be quality minor league propect arms, starting with Kershaw.

Unless they flip Loney to the Yankees for pitchers.

Gonzalez hit a monster 4 bagger almost half ways up the bleachers 5-4 Blue Crew.

315 You better knock on wood.

309 That is probably close to the truth. In a perverse way I'm glad we are not still ahead 4-3 because I have seen offenses quit so often.
Gonzo, Gonzo!

Nice. That makes up for the two doubles he didn't catch earlier.

Gonzo!!! Rudy FTW!

Gonzo!!! Rudy FTW!

Unfortunately, time for a meeting....... grumble, grumble.....

Ethier, Gonzo each homered. You DO need a mixture of young/old to win. Don't put the old goats out to pasture yet.

As deep as our line-up is, Howard starts trouble and comes around too often. In this game it seems everything was OK till Howard at least 3 times.

314 - The comments on DT in response to my SI article on relievers last year were interesting - worth rereading if anyone has the time.

My gameday has Loney hitting right-handed.

325
Serving all your goat needs:
http://www.farmanimalshelters.org/care_goat.htm

Good, Loney came to his senses and is hitting lefty again.

325 - I believe many more people want to bench Pierre than Gonzalez, or at least have Pierre be in the rotation of players who get rested.

328
The fancy Gameday has Loney batting lefthanded.

327 Any hints on about when you wrote that last year to help my seaches.

He wanted nothing to do with Ethier.

Yahoo was so depressed by the Dodgers' bottom of the fifth that it hosed itself. It's still stuck on Martin's strikeout.

Ramon Martinez: The lone Dodger Position player without a hit.

Maybe we will get to see Roberto Hernandez. Isn't everyone excited?

Man, I miss Tony Abreu already. I've had it with Ramon Martinez.

Pierre has the all-holy consecutive games played streak. I honestly believe that is what is precluding him from getting any days off.

How much longer will we have to put up with Lucille? Seems to me that Valdez is the better option (can play the OF, better defender overall, probably a better hitter), assuming, of course, that the organization wants Abreu to play every day in AAA.

Gameday for me is stuck at the end of the top half of the 6th.

Matt Kemp comes in to replace Gonzalez i think & will lead of when the Dodgers come up to bat.

335 I was following the game on Yahoo. After Gonzo's HR, score being 5-4 Dodgers, I got up to talk to a coworker, and when I came back the game was tied 4-4! I thought I'd gone crazy.

Since hitting a game-winning home run in the 16th inning on August 29, 2006, Ramon Martinez is slugging .185. In 91 plate appearances, he has nine singles, three doubles, seven walks, one HBP, one sacrifice hit and one sacrifice fly.

WTG middle relievers!

I'm stuck--whats FTW.

You know, Ryan Howard is top heavy & watching his at bats get me tired.

346 For the win.

Like Vinnie said Ryan Howard batting stance is similar to Bagwells

Sweet Sassy Molassy

That was silly.

346 Thanks,sometimes I just spin in space. I was pretty sure it wasn't the mirror image of an illegal at this site.

Kemp makes his presence known & whizzels one to left field for a lead of single. But then gets thrown out trying to steal 2nd base.

Was it close?

340 - His little hot streak to start the year notwithstanding, I don't think Valdez does anything Martinez can't. I want Abreu, or ultimately let Betemit be the back-up shortstop.

I would think that an infield rotation of Loney/Kent/Furcal/Nomar/Abreu/Betemit could find enough at-bats so that no one is wasting away on the bench.

349 - He also said that about Rowand's stance, and I can see the similarities.

It looks like Broxton will come in to pitch the 8th, has he pitched several games in a row?

These are the kinda games that, when you win, make it feel like it's "your year".

354

kind of.

355

Valdez is younger & cheaper nough said

358 - Rollins-Victorino-Utley going 0-for-11 helps the cause.

357 He didn't pitch on Monday.

358
That's what we thought after the home opener in 2005.

360 But we're already paying Martinez, so cheaper doesn't apply.

Current futility not withstanding, Martinez is probably a better hitter than Valdez. A guy who puts the ball in play as often as Ramon should not be hitting .164.

355

but you gotta think RM2 will stay over calling up Valdes

360 - Martinez only makes $800K. Valdez is no spring chicken either, if I recall correctly. Plus, I don't really care how old my throwaway 4th string infielder is.

They both are "not young", cheap, and thoroughly untalented.

Looks like the game in Atlanta is about over. Bottom of the 15th, Atlanta down by one with runners on first and second, and the hitter is...Kyle Davies.

Pat Burrell is the new Bobby Abreu. Philly fans just absolutely hate him and no matter what, believe he is the worst player in the league.

But we're already paying Martinez, so cheaper doesn't apply.

yeah i thought about that to late, i'd submitted by post already.

367 - Where's Rick Camp when you need him?

I know Ken Gurnick is supposed to be a Dodger-hater, but this sounds like it's from a press release:

"With eight infielders on the roster and the success of the recent alignment with James Loney at first base and Nomar Garciaparra at third, playing time for the 22-year-old Abreu had pretty much disappeared."

How does Nomar get any credit for the recent "success?" His contribution is completely negative -- getting out of Loney's way. The logic of Gurnick's sentence would be unchanged if he'd written it this way:

"With eight infielders on the roster and the success of the recent alignment with James Loney at first base and Paris Hilton out of jail, playing time for the 22-year-old Abreu had pretty much disappeared."

368 Haven't they thought that for awhile?

371 - I like the second sentence better.

And I like Broxton too. Sweet pitching.

Its about time that Paris' contribution to the team this year gets noticed.

368

those Philly fans are truly fanatical on certain players aren't they. He's a nice complimentary LF'er with good pop no?

371 - So not this?

"With eight infielders on the roster and the success of the recent alignment of Nomar Garciaparra at third and Paris Hilton out of jail, playing time for the 22-year-old Abreu had pretty much disappeared."

375
He has lost a lot of pop this year, but he still gets on-base a lot.

He's a right-handed Adam Dunn. 3 True Outcomes hitter but a poor, poor fielder.

377 But not "An awful lot"

"...and the success of the recent realignment of Brett Tomko to pinchrunner..."

Tomko can't even run the bases correctly. They almost forced him out there.

Just another multi-hit game for Betemit. Sigh.

Has anyone thought to trade Nomar for David Beckham? Maybe he could play third...

Tomko running the bases?

It sure would be nice to still have Abreu, especially as we haven't even used Hernandez.

384 Pinch running for Saenz.

It's a little late to walk Ethier to get the pitchers, Phillies.

384 We needed someone slightly faster than a tree to run for Olmedo

Betetmit is all the way up to .233! He's now only 40 points behind Nomar. At some point, even the "traditional" stats are going to favor Betemit. Then what?

Roberto Hernandez sighting in the bullpen.

CAn't we put Kent in for RM2?

Any thought to sending up Kent to pinch-hit here?

391 - Oooh.

Disturbing photo up on CNN for the lead story about dog-fighting. People who abuse animals are the lowest of low. Penarol might even rank them below professors, though I wouldn't bet on it.

of course.

i like how we have the 8-9-1 coming up instead of 2-3-4

RM2 couldn't get a bases loaded base hit so it looks like Saito will have to close it out for the blue.

When you have a hole in the line-up like Lucille, people can walk someone hot like Ethier. If Abrue was here it might be different.
That comment is not really fair cause Ramon nailed it. But all the same.

391 This will be quite a gaffe if they score on Saito.

392 When Grady gives a day off, you get the day off.

This guy is an awful manager

394 Did they show THAT photo? That is a horrible picture.

394 People who abuse humans are the lowest of low. The ones who abuse animals aren't that much above them though.

394 possibly more disturbing- the video link titled "watch what goes on at a high- stakes dog fight."

I don't think I will, thanks

399 Not really, a pinch hitter chances of getting a hit are not that much better than Ramon's no matter what he is batting right now.

Odd not using Kent in there. Maybe there is a trade developing.

394 - My wife cried this morning during their story on dogfighting. Awful stuff.

395 - that was in reference to RM2 grounding out, not to 393.

393 - Fine minds think alike.

394. I'd actually put people who abuse and murder people below those who abuse animals, but that's just. As for professors, there may be that one professor who broke into my mother's office and attempted to put a voodoo curse on her while she was up for tenure, but all others, probably not.

405-

I disagree. A better hitter would have a better chance of getting hit. Even off the bench.

405 - Kent up with the bases loaded is "not that much better" that that of Ramon in the same situation? I...disagree.

i hope the Pads lose later on tonight that way we can be 2 games up on them.

410 Especially if Kent worked a walk.

406 That's probably reading a bit too much into it.

People who abuse humans are the lowest of low. The ones who abuse animals aren't that much above them though.

i think it's safe to say we all agree on that.

i hope the Pads lose later on tonight that way we can be 2 games up on them

I hope we win the World Series this year.

You know what Gameday needs? Sound Effects! And Scooter.

Vinnie busting out a Bourn joke

wow I have never seen that before in my life.

I hope the Pacific is as blue as it is in my dreams.

Michael Vick should be put in jail for the rest of his life.

I doubt he'll spend a day in prison.

what the hell was that?? a strike that HIT THE UMP!

That's certainly a new play.

Gameday says grounder to Kemp. Anybody know how that worked?

394
Are they lower then the people who abuse people?
My favorite reality show would be to round up the wealthy slugs who shoot big game animals in pens and call it hunting. Then take those fella's and take away the guns and then put them in the same pens with the big game animals. A good size Liger would do the trick since he's plenty ticked off about how he was created in the 1st place.

Vick should be checked out for anti-social behavior. Isn't that stuff serial killers do?

417 He did the same thing in the broadcast last night. Thought it was a bit of a reach then. But Vin is allowed some latitude

420 - If he's guilty of the charges--absolutely.

That's what you do when the ump has been squeezing you. The old "Whoops pitchout" play.

Unfortunately, I think it was just an accident this time.

410 Kent's pinch hitting career since 1987 in only 29 at bats, he has 3 hits.
.103/.212/.172

crazy series, good win!

424
Now there's a reality show I could get excited about.

427 - I don't think life in prison is a possibility on these charges, is it?

Nice relief work from everyone.

I think 5-1 out of the break is about as good as I could hope for.

Seanez, Beimel, Broxton and Saito. Faced 13 batters, 1 hit.

it hasn't ended on gameday yet. There it goes. Nice.

I'll see y'all later.

432
6 years in prison and a fine is the max.

432 I believe the max is 5 years

That was a nice win. It's a shame Billingsley didn't get the W, but there's something about come-from-behind wins that make them just a little more satisfying.

the ump almost got hit in the family jewels.

With this win, I dub 2007 "Our Year".

432 - No, He could get up to 10 years from what I've read. He'll probably do very little time. That said, I can't imagine him keeping his job if he is found guilty.

436/437 - He'll be getting a lengthy suspension from the NFL shortly. I wonder how much of that record-amount contract is guaranteed?

436, 437, 441:
ha.
"Vick's problems would seem to be plentiful now that he has gone from a person of interest in local and federal investigations to one of four men charged in U.S. District Court in Richmond, Va., with conspiracy to commit interstate commerce in aid of unlawful activities and to sponsor a dog in an animal-fighting venture. On the Travel Act portion of the conspiracy charges, he faces a maximum of five years in prison and a $250,000 fine. The dogfighting charges carry a possible sentence of one year in prison, a $100,000 fine or both."

I guess there are witness accounts of Vick killing 8 dogs. None of them were put to sleep. Pretty Perverse.

427 Vick is entitled to the presumption of innocence in a court of law. He's not entitled to jack from me.

He did it, he's a sadist and a scumbag, and I hope he has a tender and caring cellmate. If he goes to jail. Which he probably won't.

Seanez is on pace to win 10 games this year.

433 434 Turns out that Weisman guy knew what he was talking about. The Dodgers do not appear to need a reliever.

They way he killed them shows extreme mental problems. One dog they got wet and then electrocuted. Dropping another dog from heights.

438 I don't know why you think Billz deserved to win. He was all over the place today and was fortunate to make it through five innings.

I also wonder if Saito realized there was a pitchout call. That pitch was right in the center of the strike zone.

446 - Somehow, that comment seems extra-inconsqeuential, compared to what preceded it.

450 Sorry, Philosopher King. My bad.

449 Maybe Saito was channeling that fake pitch out or maybe it was intentional walk, yeah that's the ticket, pitch to Johnny Bench by I think Rollie Fingers to Gene Tenace in the 72 Series.

448
Inexcusable.

Maybe this has been aired already, but regarding the rumor, Betemit for Bruney/Farnsworth/Proctor: Brian Bruney is the most appealing option and I would make that trade right away. Bruney is 25 yrs. old and just finished fourteen games without giving up a run. He would be a critical addition to the pen. We could give LaRoche the shot at third everyone on this site has been clamoring for. Platoon him with old, tired Nomar until natural selection takes hold.

454

Betemit shouldn't be traded for a reliever.

And the weird (or sad) thing is, Michael is the least troubled quarterback in the Vick family.

444

Cesar Millan ain't writing any fan letters to him any time soon, but seriously that's pretty sick stuff. You can say the same thing about cock fights i saw a cock fight once when i was 15yrs old in Guadalajara, Mex.

451 - Oh, no apolgies needed.

Betemit shouldn't be traded for a reliever

A reliever won today's game, while Betemit only got a couple hits...

449 - Again, it's not really a "deserved" kind of thing. The Dodgers won, Billingsley started, they were ever so close to getting that 5th run for him to earn it.

We like Billingsley. We want him to get wins (even if he doesn't deserve it).

I keep thinking of Eric Enders' bio of Buck Freeman in the "AL Deadball Stars" and the quote he found about Freeman's favorite hobby.

But I don't want to get it wrong.

454 I'd rather keep Betemit.

456 - Is that so certain now? This dog-fighting stuff probably trumps Marcus Vick's on-field stompings, and scaring kids in McDonald's parking lots.

There's a good-sized article on Delwyn Young up at Baseball America's website. Apparently he is always being asked to sign Delmon Young baseball cards and other Delmon memorabilia. Some fan even angrily demanded to know why he threw a bat at an umpire.:)

I wonder how long it will take the Phillies to bus down to San Diego if they leave Dodger Stadium around 4:00.

3 hours?

I'd like a proper ratio of dogs to humans before it's okay to throw somebody in the clink for 25 to life. 10 dogs=1 human? 15/1? 30/1?

Somebody help me out here.

The AP story of the Dodgers game has Billingsley as the winner.

Presumably, an editor will catch that during the next rewrite.

After I saw Grady did not have Abreu available to play for RM2, the move was fine. With a one run lead, you do not need a rosebush playing second.

Dewan released the +/- leaders at the all star break. The only Dodger in the top 5 of any position was Ethier with +16 (good for first for RFs). Only 5 players at any position are better than Ethier (Pujols has been the best fielder this year at +25, Andruw and Tulo are at +22, Feliz is at +21, and Everett is at +17). It seems to me that if Ethier really is that good in RF, he'd be just fine in CF, but what do I know.

466
For people who view capital punishment as a deterrent, why not just make it one dog?

464 You said something the other day about how we should be careful in examining numbers from Vegas as it gets really hot there but even considering that, are you not impressed by what Andy and Chin Ling Hu are doing?

466 Well, I would venture to guess that 7 dog lives = 1 human life, after all 7 dog years = 1 human year.

466 Were it up to me-and someday it will (diablolical laughter)- the sadistic manner in which the dogs were killed would be acknowledged and it would be 1/1. Maybe 2/1.

466 Were it up to me-and someday it will (diablolical laughter)- the sadistic manner in which the dogs were killed would be acknowledged and it would be 1/1. Maybe 2/1.

Yankee's have Edwar Ramirez who is similiar to Meloan. The difference is that he's on the 25 man roster but Torre refuses to use him, while Meloan twiddles his thumbs in AA. Neither pitcher is being used correctly.

You know, for such a good young pitcher, the Billingsley Hater bandwagon sure seems to have a lot of people on it. This is a guy who had a 121 ERA+ as a 21-year-old rookie and has a 134 ERA+ as a 22-year-old third starter. Safe to say the guy is pretty good.

The leader of this bandwagon from the start has been Tony Jackson, who never misses an opportunity to say something bad about Billingsley. Even after his last start, when he threw 6 shutout innings, Jackson managed to complain that "he typically fell behind in counts and threw too many pitches."

475

i saw the article on primer stating that a computer (!!!) found Edwar.

470 I'm against capital punishment today. Tomorrow, I'll be for it.

That's pretty much how I am with everything. But I'm waiting for Slate to tell me that dog-fighting is actually pretty cool.

And Ethier can't play center. He just can't. For obvious reasons that nobody can figure out.

476
Jackson doesn't like Billingsley because Chad once cut in front of him in line to get an elevator.

479
I heard that Jackson was on the elevator first, and Chad made him vacate.

pretty fair to think the Pads can lose today considering it's Maddux Vs Maine today. ERA's & all.

461 For those who don't know, Buck Freeman was the first great home run hitter in baseball history. He was also a huge cockfight aficionado. This is the excerpt Bob was referring to:

---------------
During his offseasons, though he didn't need the money, Freeman kept in shape by working as a stoker in the boiler room of a local silk mill. He spent much of his time cockfighting, and became well known as a breeder of fighting birds, keeping a flock of more than 100 gamecocks in his barn. (He insisted the best type of fighting bird was a cross between a Hopkinson warhorse cock and a white hackle hen.) Even a 1937 police raid on a cockfight at Freeman's home did not deter him. "I'd walk 20 miles to see a good cockfight," he once said. In October 1906, Freeman purchased the New Haven Blues of the Connecticut League; by 1910 the team had been renamed the Prairie Hens.
-------------------

(Of course, even today, it's perfectly acceptable for people to treat chickens cruelly, as long as they intend to eventually turn them into nuggets.)

480
Also Chad took the last seat on a Delta flight and bumped Jackson on to a different airline.

I actually just served on a jury... "presumption of innocence" is one of those phrases that we've all heard countless times, but it's also one of the hardest things to grasp when you're actually deliberating.

That being said, Vick has already been found guilty in the Court of Public Opinion and arguably that'll be worse than anything he's actually convicted of. However, the feds usually don't indict unless they have a strong case.... so I think Vick is in for a world of trouble.

I rank animals by how well they can do tricks.

485
Well then, you should probably steer clear of all videos on Youtube containing dolphins.

But I'm waiting for Slate to tell me that dog-fighting is actually pretty cool.

obviously your joking i'm sure you don't like watching blood & death (real death) unfold before your eyes. i'm telling you it's really really sick stuff when you think about it specially what's going on inside that football players coconut when he watches it all unfold.

I wasn't aware of a Billingley hater bandwagon.

I rank animals by how well they can do tricks

Illusions, Greg. You rank animals by how well they can do illusions.

Missed most of the game, but the thing from the box score that strikes me is what the bullpen did.
IP-4
ER-0
Hits-1
K-4
BB-0
Nice job!
vr, Xei

487 It was a tongue-in-cheek comment... Slate is known for taking wildly contrarian opinions. :)

476. A performance like today's doesn't help Billingsley silence his critics.

487 Don't worry, Bleeder. It was a knock on Slate, not an endorsement of animal torture.

492

honestly, what are you expecting? A 22yr old to put up Pedro Martinez type numbers in his first full season?

494 Which even Pedro Martinez did not do.

489 Tricks are something that...You know.

496
I know. Money...or candy...

Tricks are for kids, not animals.

494. Of course not, but at the same time there also seems to be a lot of horn-tooting about this kid when there is not that much to toot about yet.

I still find it interesting how millions of people will be upset to learn about dog fighting as they eat dinner tonight with a meal usually consisting of an animal who had his brain smashed in. People will be literally crying about the poor dogs and the next story will be about another car bomb in Iraq which killed 8 now putting the total civilian Iraqi's killed at about 65,000 since they were freed of tyranny. Man, those poor dogs, isn't this steak great.

Chad Billingsley is not proven. Except for the 6 wins, no losses, better than league-average ERA, smashing success at every level of competition since kindergarten, rave reviews from every scout that's ever seen him, and a body that has been on earth for only 22 years.

Go out there and win a Cy Young you loafer!

499 "there is not that much to toot about yet."

That's about as false as a statement gets. Look at the stats in 476. Billingsley has been putting up outstanding numbers in the majors for over a year, at an age when most players are still in Class A ball. He's done better than many if not most Hall of Fame pitchers did at the same age.

500
I hear you, TC.

BTW: Have you ever flown a commercial chopper in Hawai'i...?

499 So, nine strikeouts per nine and a 3.26 ERA in the bigs as a 22 year old doesn't count?

499, meet 476.

500 Cows can't do tricks. And they have four stomachs. Things aren't supposed to have four stomachs. It's an affront to nature.

Plus, have you ever tasted dog? Man, it's terrible.

How about destroying AA as a 20 year old?

wow, Macaulay Culkin just shot a dog with a bow and arrow in the Good Son....shades of Ron Mexico!

500 Sorry, but all the horrors in the world don't make any other single horror "okay" or less deserving of tears and fury.

506
If humans had multiple stomachs like cows and became ruminants, we'd never need to take lunch breaks and we could all stay in our seats for an entire baseball game without getting up for food.

Mmm.... Cud ..... Mmm....

510 I'd rather be a camel. Four stomachs is just showing off. It's the Kuo bat-flip of stomachry.

511
Plus you get the spit thing as a bonus.

471 -- Sure, even with the hot, thin air and Vegas's usual hitter-friendliness, I like what I am seeing from Young, LaRoche, and Hu, but I think Hu's stats at Jacksonville this year are more indicative of his big league ceiling. I still worry about the long-term effects of LaRoche's shoulder injuries. Delwyn Young, I suspect, will hit if he is given a big league opportunity, but his high K rate at Triple A and his streakiness suggest I shouldn't be surprised if he does fail in the majors, if he is even given the chance to fail. I would like to see him get an opportunity sowewhere, and I know it won't be with us.

I sense a "new post up top" coming soon.

I wonder what our record is when Nomar is a starter and when he isn't? I saw something about us being 7-7 while at 3b.

James Mcdonald goes for the Suns tonight. If he does well, I will crown him King of our stable of right handed pitching prospects.

As Canuck said before there is a great article on our D Young at BA. Please trade him to Pittsburgh, they could use an outfielder. What the hey happened to Jason Bay?

388 I wondered if perhaps Tomko was used as pinch runner just in case the Phillies tied it up in the 9th and the D's couldn't win it in the bottom. It's usually not good to extend Saito for another inning, so Tomko could have been left in for one inning in the 10th (losing the game, quite possibly) before going to Hernandez in an 11th. Not much of an idea, but I did wonder.

Kent has never been much of a pinch hitter, as someone pointed out. It puzzled me why Vin assumed that Kent would be pinch hitting if Abreu were still around, before Abreu got inserted at 2nd. Surely Abreu would simply have been substituted directly for Martinez. We'd have been better off with that option, but fortunately Saito saved the day, as he usually does. And I'm sure they will need Hernandez (or a better 12th pitcher) to stretch out an inning, do garbage duty, etc., so it made sense to send Abreu down to make way.

Would it have been better to keep Abreu up and release Martinez? Abreu is not so versatile defensively, plus it's probably better for him to get to play every day down in Vegas. Now that Betemit is playing better again, he's not a liability: he can be played every time he's needed, even if Nomar is sat down more and more frequently, as is likely.

502. "He's done better than many if not most Hall of Fame pitchers did at the same age."

This is what I mean by horn-tooting. His pitching performance today and this kind of accolade seem incongruous. I am not saying he won't be a great pitcher; I am just saying that -- unlike some of you -- I am not ready to crown him the golden child given his inconsistency.

What are the chances that Martinez is still on the squad come September? It seems like Grady made a conscious decision to go with Ramon recently over Abreu despite Abreu's better numbers this season. Considering Abreu's got options left and is probably better off playing on a daily basis at this point in his career anyway, I have no problem with that decision. But if Martinez' utter lack of offensive production doesn't pick up soon (as difficult as they may be in such limited PA's)I would guess that he gets DFA'd before the September call ups.

Saenz is having a pretty poor season off the bench as well, but at least he has a track record of driving in runs. Martinez has always been relegated to serviceable bench player status, but at this point I think he's dropped below even those low expectations.

If Martinez is gone, who will we see? Abreu again would be the obvious answer, but come call-ups time will they bring up Hu, LaRoche, and Young as well?

I'll say this about Luis Gonzalez, he's one of the few guys who can go toe to toe with T.J. Simers and sound like he is having fun with him.

Gonzalez is at least honest about how he feels about Arizona. When asked if it hurts to see Arizona on a cold streak right now, Gonzalez said something like "Are you kidding, I check the scoreboard 12 times a night and it breaks my heart when they lose (sarcastic tone) you bet I keep up with what they are doing."

I can appreciate someone who doesn't dance around the question, there is no doubt he wanted to retire as a D-Back and he lets people know how he feels about it.

516 Why doesn't anyone like Young as our version of Olmedo Saenz next year (at least a lefthanded version.)

heh, TJ answered my (our) question in his comments section.

500 -- Cows aren't pets in our culture, and I don't have a problem with non-pet animals being used for food, or even clothing. But I do object to the killing of any animal that is motivated by simple sadism, and since I object to bull-fighting, by extension you can say I wouldn't want the females of the species treated that way either. What is really alarming about the Vick story is the sadism element, not so much that dogs died. We all know that animal shelters kill cats and dogs all the time.

522 Comments section of what?

524

in his blog... www.insidesocal.com/dodgers

Hey Canuck and nate, you guys could probably answer this: what's Abreu's ability level at shortstop? Has he played there previously for any duration?

We cant DFA everyone Ned has brought in, can we? So ramon rides the pine and is a late inning defensive replacement anywhere in the infield and spot starter here or there.

In Chad's last 4 starts (I am not sure if he is fully stretched out yet) he has gone 23 innings or at least 5 in all and given up 7 runs. Is that so inconsistent?

The Padre Ace Peavy: in his last 4 games has thrown 25 innings and has given up 10 runs. Is he inconsistent?

518 "This is what I mean by horn-tooting. His pitching performance today and this kind of accolade seem incongruous."

Well then the difference appears to be that you are judging him based on a game or two, while the rest of us are judging him based on his extensive track record over a number of years.

Look, nobody's inducting him into the Hall of Fame just yet. Nobody's giving him credit for things he hasn't done. Giving him credit for the things he has ALREADY done is enough. And what he has done is pitch better in the majors at a young age than about 98% of pitchers in the history of baseball.

527 - I'm on your side with the basic, "Chad is good" argument, but four starts does not really reveal consistency.

521 I'm all for that. Plus he's a switch hitter, not a pure lefty (and has murdered lefty pitching this year to the tune of .385/.418/.692 in 104 ABs)

Oh, TJ = Tony Jackson. OK. bhsportsguy had just (520) referred to TJ Simers, so I thought you meant that TJ. The thought of TJ Simers having a comments section somewhere for people to rebut his - shall we say off-the-wall views - seemed rather farfetched. I was hoping to see the mudslinging matches...

That's what I don't get about this Delwyn Young character. If all he does is hit, and he's a switch-hitting witch, sounds like a perfect bat off the bench to me.

If not, dish the guy and get something back because he doesn't have a place on the diamond. We've pretty much locked in on the future position players. Bring him up to hit or file the guy and let him play elsewhere.

Fourty years ago today a 22 year right hander only lasted 5 innings against the Phillies . Don Sutton gave up 3 runs and lost to the Phillies Rick Wise, who pitched a shutout. Sutton record fell to 6-11 , he would finish the year at 11-15.

Ethier's defensive value to go along with his career 113OPS+ probably puts him closer to the 3 side then the 4 side of the outfielder argument.

526 -- Abreu can play a good shortstop; he's just not as good defensively as Hu at the position, so that has kept him at 2B.

516 -- Why couldn't Young be the next Olmedo? I just don't think streaky hitters who whiff a lot and don't walk that much make effective pinch hitters. I could be wrong about that, but my intuition says otherwise.

And if anyone's curious, MGL has released updated UZRs for the season (as of July 9th I believe):

http://www.tangotiger.net/mgl/uzr2007_07_09.csv

Whereas +/- really likes Ethier, UZR is not really a fan (it gives him +3 per 150 games, the same rating as Gonzo). It also doesn't like Loney (-10 per 150 games). Kent is at -35, Pierre -9, Betemit -24, Nomar -7 at 1st and -1 at 3rd (and most impressive, +3 at 1st for Toronto), and Furcal +16, all per 150 games.

In regards to Billingsley and how having too many vets can be a curse. I feel that Bills is on the cusp of getting it and becoming a very good starter. If he had started the year as a starter, back when he would have been the only question in a wondrous abundance of starters, he would be all the way there now.

When u add it with all the stuff that Canuck and Eric have been showning us (for years now it seems and others of course)regarding his history in the minors etc it is.

Of course people look at Peavy and go, ah he is just having a tough few games. Same people look at Chad and wonder what the hype is about. That's all I was trying to say.

534 - 3.3?

"four starts does not really reveal consistency."

What we really need right now is a good Greg Brock rant against the "inconsistency" bugaboo. C'mon, Greg. Step up to the plate.

Who cares if a player is inconsistent? What matters at the end of the day is the sum total of what a player does. It doesn't matter HOW he did it, it just matters that he DID do it. Consistency is not inherently better than streakiness. In fact, Bill James in one of his old abstracts did a study showing that, given two players with approximately the same stats, the streaky player is actually MORE valuable than the consistent one.

Consistency is one of the big fallback words of baseball ignorance. (And, please, rest assured that I'm not trying to pick on any one person.) It's a cliche that is utterly devoid of meaning, and belongs on the same scrap heap as "intangibles," "veteran presence," and "hasn't proven himself."

Inconsistency is not only just as valuable as consistency -- inconsistency is exactly what makes baseball exciting. Instead of hitting exactly one home run every four games, Shawn Green hit four in one game. Instead of giving up exactly 5.8 hits in every start, Sandy Koufax threw four no-hitters. Instead of hitting 38 homers every year of his career, Mark McGwire hit 70 in one season.

536 King, who is Toronto, or am I parsing this wrong(not unlikely) :0)

535 Normally, I would be one to say that younger guys should not be put in that situation but Olmedo's numbers are down a lot this year (hey 3 years as a professional hitter is a good deal for the money they are paying him). It just seems like he could be as a good a person to try plus he won't cost much. Right now, I put him ahead of Repko since his game is his mobility and we won't know where that will be after this injury.

535 Isn't Olmedo a streaky hitter who strikes out a lot? He may walk a bit more, but I generally see him being very similar to Young.

541 Sorry about that. Nomar is at +3 for Toronto (the team).

544 Get it now.

540 Your rant against "hasn't proven himself" scared me. It was like a glorious supernova. I can't rant like that.

But yeah, consistency...grrrrrrrr

{shakes fist}

543 -- We would have to look up Saenz's minor league stats to see what kind of hitter he was when he was a full-time player to see if there is a real comparison with Young.

545 - Really? I'm even more confused. Was it a typo or something?

540 Sure sounds like you're picking on Joe Morgan to me

540 -- I don't think of inconsistency as being the same thing as streakiness in baseball. Following a win with a loss and making that a pattern is inconsistent. Streakiness is more like a long slump followed by a prolonged tear, followed by another long slump.

It looks like Dontrelle's trade value has diminished enough that even if we do end up trading for him, we won't have to give up a whole lot. Another terrible outing so far today against the Cardinals (6 ER, 7 H, 2 BB, 2 IP) has brought his ERA up to a Tomkoan 5.18.

548 Yes. The UZR file I linked to had Nomar listed as a 1B for Toronto where he played one game.

Saenz was a good hitter in the minors but not as good as Delwyn. Olmedo batted .280/.358/.449 in the minors, with 276 BB and 399 SO in 2,847 AB.

Delwyn's record is better in every respect except for the strikeouts.

552 - Ah, if only it were true...

480 So I know what happened to Tony, but what happened to the elevator?

555 It sleeps with the scrap iron.

First-round compensation pick Mitch Canham, the catcher on Oregon State's national championship teams the last two years, was to rise to low Single-A Fort Wayne this week but instead will be out a few weeks. Canham required testicular surgery after being struck in the protective cup

not....goood.

5.30/1.61/.273 at Dodger stadium in Dontrelles career or Tomkoan.

557 I think Griffey had that same injury a few years ago.

Speaking of which, I hope the umpire's OK.

557 Sign that pitcher if he can throw hard enough to crush a cup.

559
Michael Barrett missed time last year with an intrascrotal hematoma.

https://griddle.baseballtoaster.com/archives/524960.html

557 And I though accidently, ummm...applying icy Hot to that area was painful.

523. Canuck, can I quote your post on my blog? vr, Xei

Speaking of Dontrelle Willis, are people aware that Dontrelle and our own tubby Cory Dunlap played on the same team in high school? After Dunlap was drafted by the Dodgers, Dontrelle told his agent, who was interested in representing Dunlap, "He used to hang out at my house and eat my scraps!"

The last pitcher Canham caught in a game was Jackson Quezada, but he played DH the next day, so I have to believe this didn't happen during a game, or the game he DH'd was one of the most painful experiences ever.

563 -- Sure. How come people want to quote me all of a sudden? That's the third request in two days. I think I need to publish a little red book with my all-time hits and call it "Sayings From Chairman Canuck."

517 Tomko PRed in the 8th. Where would he have been playing defense in the 9th while the Phillies hypothetically rallyed to tie against Saito? Or I am I misunderstanding your scenario?

566 I find that publishing little Red Books never goes wrong. Ever.

566. Either that or change your screen name to ConfuciusDodger. vr, Xei

Regarding a PH for Lucille II in the 8th: 468 is a nail on the head. Grady already had a lead and the defense he wanted. If he lifts Martinez, either Kent play 2B, or Betemit goes to 2B and Nomar comes into 3B, or some such thing. How much screaming would there have been if Kent just missed getting to a key grounder in the 9th?

569
He seemed so angelic as a kid:
http://tinyurl.com/33ctet

568 But publishing little black books leads to big trouble - usually for those in it.

571 But if you go posting pictures of Chairman Mao, you ain't gonna make with anyone, anyhow.

573 where posting = linking

570 You have a point there. On the other hand, a baseball manager should be expected to make decisions based on what is most likely to win the game, not on how much screaming he would have to endure if the decision goes wrong. There is about a 35% chance that Kent gets a hit or a walk to score a run there, as opposed to, what, a 1.5% chance that he makes an error in the ninth that leads to a run?

The guy that wrote Mao: A Life was on Book TV a week or two ago. It was a rerun of a 2000 interview. It was awesome.

I'm sure Shimmin watched it.

548 Sorry, I havent been attending. But I realize that was an automatic response and I will figure it out in the morning.

575 Depends on the win expectancy difference between a one-run and two-run lead in the bottom of the ninth, I suppose.

I think Vin actually mentioned that if Grady still had Abrue, he would have gone Kent ph for Lucille: Abrue goes in for Kent.
I heard Vin say early in the game how roster moves sent Abreu," who is a great young player with a big future with the D's", back to Vegas. I have been amazed in the past week at the overt support Vin has shown for our young players. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, for more than me, Vin comes from a time when players mostly came from a teams system, and it was far more satisfying to have a "Dodger" than some hired gun.

576- I watched a little of the replay, but I'd seen it the first time around. I don't think I missed ten Booknoteses between 1996 and the end of the series. And I've gone back through and read transcripts from several before Brian Lamb entered my life.

I'm still not sure about Q&A. In general, CSPAN seems to be letting more cranks on as guests than they used to. It used to be you could close your eyes and tell whether a caller was talking or the guest was, by whether the person was a lunatic. Now you've got to keep an eye on it.

Why can't things be like they used to be?

547 Olmedo had OPS of .806 in 3100 minor league plate appearances, he struck out about 13% of the time and walked about 9% of the time.

Young before this season has an OPS of .856 in about 2400 appearances (its higher now), he strikes out around 22% of the time and walks about 8% of the time.

Looking back at this series, I started to wonder... didn't Martin used to play third base? A wild idea could be to let him play third base once in a while to give him a break at catcher, and not take him out of the lineup. The only problem is whether that's really a break, or if he hasn't played third for a while now.

Chicago has moved .001 ahead of Atlanta in the wild card standings. The Dodgers have a four-game lead right now when it comes to a playoff spot.

54-41 Dodgers
51-41 Padres
49-44 Cubs
50-45 Braves

582

lets just leave the all star catcher alone.

Is Pierre's consecutive game streak really that much of an accomplishment that he can't take his turn in the outfield rotation with the other 3?

Slate did not write about the joys of dog fighting, but it does have an article about how much fun it is to watch the NBA Summer League in Las Vegas than other forms of basketball.

In general, Slate does not like any form of basketball that involves defense.

http://www.slate.com/id/2170558/pagenum/2/

I wonder why nobody's asked Grittle to what extent the consecutive game streak is keeping Pierre in the lineup every day. Wonder may not be quite the word I mean.

582 I agree with 584, but for the record, Martin played 40 games at third (and 1 at SS!) in the Gulf Coast League, his first year in the minors. Other than 3 scattered games in the OF, has caught exclusively since.

The only breaks he's getting are off-days and DHing.

Player family day, apparently, at DS after the game. "Nice Sight" entry in the Press-Enterprise blog (on the sidebar).

I will be in Las Vegas when the trading deadline occurs on 7/31. What are the odds I find more happiness in the casino than by watching the baseball transaction wire?

Mcdonald is getting pretty close to receiving my crown.

588

speaking of tricks...

In the Suns' game, after four innings, McDonald has given up no runs, 2 hits, 1 walk, and has 6 K's. Xavier Paul has hit his 9th HR of the season.

592

Lets go Denny Grenn on McDonald and crown his ass.

Eric Byrnes is a nut case.

Another perfect inning for McDonald, and he's now up to 7 K's in 5 IP.

594 -- And water is wet? Fire is hot?

Rare for me. Movie review! there are many here more qualified but...... This movie was such a big emotional cornball that I am not sure I really got it. But because it was close to 90 minutes, which most of the best movies are, it was sort of entertaining.Title Premonition w/Sandra Bullock. Who talked her into this, I can't imagine.

597 I can't remember if it was Jon Carroll or Ray Ratto of the SF Chronicle some years ago that called out the career-choices of said Sandra Bullock. She has taken on some reeeeal stinkers.

500

"true that" TC, it's pretty weird cause i like a nicely cooked Pollo Loco any day. :o) i think if i had a chick who was a peta lover i'd probably be hosed into becoming a vegetarian i'm easily persuade some times.

591 What if they had this event a few seasons ago? Mrs. Jose Lima in a "big bouncy house"?

Boy Nate, you've been watching out for Chad Billingsley on this site for a long time now.

I still remember your impassioned plea for folks to be nice even if he hard a time when he was first called up.

Very kind.

pesky Pads are winning 2-0 in the 2nd inning.

Until the bill of indictment against Billingsley is weightier than, "He wasn't that great this afternoon, was he?" it doesn't do much for me. I don't know why people think a 22 year old pitcher should have to be better than Billingsley has been to be praised. But I also don't know why I'm so envious of Midwesterner's getting to save big money at Menards, so it's not like I know everything.

Also, if anybody needs eighty dollars worth of Hot Beef Polish Sausages, may I recommend Klement's? After all, if you run out of Klement's, you run out of flavor.

http://tinyurl.com/2ju5dl

598 That could explain this. I'm so stunned I can't really even judge yet. I hope someone else has seen it and can give some perspective.

Funny -- in a Bold Move, Jim Leyland switched pitchers in the middle of Michael Redmond's at bat. Then the new pitcher came in and promptly hit Redmond on the first pitch.

And Bert Blyleven said, "And Redmond touches first, like he has to, before leaving for a pinch runner."

Actually, you don't have to touch first if you get hit by a pitch and you're hurt. I don't think Ray Chapman did back in 1920.

604 I beg to differ.

http://tinyurl.com/3xgal8

Dare I ask if Ray Chapman was dead at the time?

602 Pesky Pads always seem to be ahead something to 0. I may actually have to admit they have the best pitching, but that hurts because Maddox is one.
Andrew, I'm not sure I can buy into the seriousness of your envy for midwesterners.

609
He didn't pass away until later that evening I believe.

Jon Stewart on Michael Vick: "I'd like to cover him in liver and let the dogs see if he's as fast and elusive as they say he is."

608- If you don't advertise during Brewers' games, I do not recognize your product. That's just how I roll.

603 What's with all the Menard's comments lately? I take it you guys don't have those out there on the West Coast?

603 Well he was poor today. And he been very inconsistent. He doesn't have a very good quality start percentage, but when he has been quality, he's been fantastic. Once he finds consistency, he'll be a top of the line starter, but he isn't that guy quite yet.

614- It's the last day of the Extra Innings post-All Star break free preview. I'll lose interest in Menards by next week. Until the first week of next season.

Menard's is very popular around here. It's actually a pretty good store. Since we get their commercials frequently on all of our local channels, I could record some different ones for you and send the DVD. It would be my pleasure. Is it the little jingle you like so well?

617
We will reply with inside jokes about Jack Stephan Plumbing.

618 We're in the white pages!

516

Don't misunderstand me, I think our D Young would be fine as a replacement for the Tomato but I've always liked the guy so I want more for him then just a PH gig for the Dodgers. To me he is Dmitri Young when Dmitri wasn't so fat and didn't have the personal problems. If I had my way my 2008 OF would be Ethier/Kemp/Young but I'm not sure Young will have enough bat his 1st few years to warrant a starting gig on a contending team.

615 Not that I'm making the comparison, but you could've' said the same thing about a certain lefty in 1958.

619 Plus it was the same guy in the Adee Do commercials. Which makes sense, since it was really the same company.

617- I think I'm covered:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGiCXimV5Dc

It also turns out that I have more in common with birds than I'd guessed. Which reminds me, all of the love and respect for animals shown in this thread is fine, so long as we can all agree that crows aren't eligible for any of it. S'alright?

622
Someone called the library asking for the phone number to Jack Stephan Plumbing because they said they could not find it in the yellow pages.

I am not making this up.

Carlos Santana breaks out with a double and home run while J Bell makes his 27th error. 27 errors in July at 3b??? Between him and Mattingly does anyone catch and throw at Great Lakes. The pitchers must cring everytime a GB is hit.

For those watching the Padres game:

Oh-Oh-Oh-OH-Oh
Oh-Oh-OH-Oh
Oh-Oh-Oh-OH-Oh
The Wright stuff!

David Wright hits a 3-run HR to ties it at 4-4 in the 8th.

622,624 Stephen...Errrric Stephen. Except I pronounce it "Steven".

I expect to be mercilessly beaten Saturday; not for my New Kids reference, but for my grammar in 626: "...to ties it" doesn't cut it.

623
Kali will visit you in your dreams tonight.

The Padres bullpen implodes and the Mets have tied it. The Dodgers could have a two game margin by the end of the night.

627 I'm gonna be there saturday, so they better not get blown out. That would be no fun.

630 I meant I expect to be personally beaten, not the Dodgers. I expect Penny to win his 12th in fine fashion on Saturday.

Geoff Blum of all people helps the Padres reclaim the lead, with an RBI single in the 8th. 5-4 with 2 outs, bottom 8.

Geoff Blum is San Diego's Ramon Martinez.

Except he might be a little better.

Old friends Green and LoDuca, followed by Lastings Milledge, will get to face Hoffman in the 9th. 5-4 Padres.

632- World Series hero Geoff Blum, if you please.

615- If quality start percentage floats your boat, okay, but he's started six games this year, and was only allowed to throw more than eighty pitches in four of them. He has two quality starts in those four games.

Shawn Green tries to bunt for a base hit.

How the mighty have fallen.

"Hit it once!
Big Shawn, BUNTS?"

Green is now 4 for 16 lifetime against Hoffman.

I like the song "Hells Bells", but every time I hear it played as Hoffman enters a game, I feel exactly like fictional Indians owner Rachel Phelps felt about "Wild Thing."

New posts at Screen Jam. Who's up for the Emmy nominations?

From the AP:

"It's a big stew here and we're trying to get the best recipe we can," Ethier said. "Hopefully, I stay a piece of it and make this the best-tasting stew we can get."

I believe the Dodgers have announced that they are calling up top prospect Dinty Moore from Las Vegas.

Delwyn Young didn't play today (read into that if you must, although he PH'd), so Laroche and Hu decided to slack off. Each went 1-4, and let the old guys take care of the offense. Hull struck out 2 and earned the save, but not before loading the bases.

Let me tell you a little story about acting. I was doing this Showtime movie—Hot Ice with Anne Archer—never once touched my per diem. I'd go to Craft Service, get some raw veggies, bacon, Cup-A-Soup— baby, I got a stew going.

Meloan had five strikeouts but gave up a home run in 1.2 innings of work.

Which reminds me, all of the love and respect for animals shown in this thread is fine, so long as we can all agree that crows aren't eligible for any of it. S'alright?

specially when they poop on your head & hot chicks watch it all unfold.

643
bravo

In the battle for "Greatest Announcer in Los Angeles History" over at the Times, Vin leads Chick Hearn 47.6 to 46.6.

Let's get serious here. Chick was a great basketball announcer. Vin Scully might be the finest broadcaster, in any form, in television history.

I came to the party late when it comes to LA broadcasters, but I think Chick gets credit because he invented sayings that became popular. I would still take Vin though.

647

I haven't read the thread yet so I don't know if this has been mentioned but Vin Scully's call of the umpire getting hit during the botched pitchout was masterful. As a former sportscaster, I was blown away. Yes, the ump had the presence of mind to call the pitch a strike but Vin had the presence of mind to call attention to it while the play was in progress. I cannot tell you hard that is. I just saw Fernando Vina and Karl Ravech mutilate that play on ESPN and they were doing the highlights.

A pitchout. The pitch hits the umpire. The umpire calls a strike. The runner holds at second... Scully called all of it to perfection.

I'll say it again... I haven't listened to the Lakers on radio since Chick left. I won't finish the thought.

That's twice you've left us hanging.

I feel about Vin and Chick the same way as the voters. For me it is just about a dead heat but if I had to choose which one to listen to on my death bed, it would be Chick doing game 6 of the 1980 championship.

"Bart Sells His Soul" is on right now.

Top ten episode, for sure.

651. Sorry, with the day game following a night game, my TV got the whole day off.
vr, Xei

It's a tough call for me to make on the Chick vs Vin vote. I think they are each perfect for the sport they announce. Chick was the master of the simulcast and did a great job of painting a picture of what was happening, even when the pace was frantic. Vin on the otherhand is a great story teller and is a baseball poet. I love them both. Don't make me choose! :)
vr, Xei

Would you trade Betemit for Wang?

654 In about .00005 seconds.

655

that k-rate has to catch up to him sometime though right?

654 It's a heavy two-seamer that induces ground balls. Not every single pitcher has to strike out the world. I'm a huge fan of K rates, but come on, Nate. Wang is a groundout machine worthy of Lowe/Webb status.

The guy throws shot-puts. And he's like 27 years old.

I realize that but even Lowe and Webb get their share of strikeouts with decent k/bb ratios. I do agree that I would probably do that trade to. I mean, if the Yanks are going to offer Scott Proctor for Betemit, we might as well counter with hughes/wang/chamberlain.

656 The same could be said for Betemit...

I'd probably be willing do make the trade because we have decent 3B/2B depth and could use a young starter. However, I don't think the Yanks would trade Wang for a guy whose main role would be to play 2nd once a week and carry Arod's jock. Still, anyone who can keep balls on the ground, even with a poor K rate, can do fairly well in Dodger Stadium.

I checked, and Wang is 27. With many service years yet to come. Great Caesar's Ghost, I would love to have Wang on the Dodgers.

But the Yanks would be fools to do that deal. I'd go Betemit and DeWitt for Wang.

The Yankees are not complete idiots.

If we got Wang we could have the nickname of Team Taiwan.

I guess I'm overrating Betemit and underrating Wang. I didn't think there is that much of a discrepancy about their worth.

Anyways, that is the only type of trade I would deal Betemit in; a reliable innings eater who's still a couple years away from free agency. Hes worth more then middle relievers.

With all due respect to Nate (who, along with Canuck, do an absolutely awesome job of keeping us in the minor league loop--Really, it's so great) we have our foundation. Martin, Kershaw, Loney, Kemp, Billingsley, LaRoche.

Let's go ahead and trade some prospects for other guys. DeWitt, Young, Hu (I know you guys like Hu, you'll get over it) Mattingly, and other dudes for more awesome other dudes. The Dodgers are not going to play nine guys from the organization. That never happens. Let's start dishing the second-tier guys for other players.

I am a fan of playing the prospects and keeping them, but like Brock, I am not opposed to trading the right prospects. Brock pretty much nailed the prospects I would not want to touch.

I just question whether there is anyone out there worth trading those prospects for.

I'm never always against making traded. I was all for the Betemit trade last year and didn't really mind the Lugo trade. If a trade made sense for now and the future, I would definitely go for it. If Dewitt can't stick it at 2b, he is definitely trade bait since I don't think he will hit for enough power or walk enough to justify playing a corner position. As for Hu, he's not really a secondary guy anymore. He's most likely our #3 prospect in our system and replacement for Furcal.

I'm never always against making traded.

Nate, we need to get together and get sideways on hippie lettuce. You, me, trainwreck, and some A-1 Yoda. We might figure solve every problem in baseball. Or just get stupid.

Either way, this needs to happen.

yeaaaaa, that didn't come out right.

Greg probably does not even know he is using hyphy terminology.

http://www.dailynews.com/dodgers/ci_6409138

Tony Jackson not letting up...

670 The problem is that I can't engage is silliness. I have to openly reject this stuff because it hurts society. That kind of behavior is destroying America. Teachers need to take a hard line.

That said, A-1 Yoda is wonderful.

664. Greg,

Is Ethier on the top-tier or second-tier list. In terms of pure talent, I'd place him on the second-tier, but since he's already with the big club with experience, I'd be resitant to move him, for the sake of this year.
And how is Mattingly doing? Last I heard, he's not doing too well.

I don't know what to make of Ethier. I honestly have no clue. Ethier is the most confusing player on the roster.

If he was a CF, he would be great. But he's not. He can't play CF, because people tell us he can't play CF. He can't hit enough to be a corner outfielder, but we play him in RF. I have yet to hear a convincing argument why Ethier can't play CF, but we all accept that he can't play center. Dude is not a corner outfielder, and can't play center for some magical reason.

I guess Ethier is too slow to play center. Or he some magical curse that prevents him from playing center. Or something else. But Ethier can't play center. It would ruin the world.

672
I know high school and college teachers that partake in the silliness. One did teach history by the way.

Perhaps his arm isn't strong enough?

I think he's already reached his ceiling, or at least is almost there. And players with his ceiling (15-20 HR, .280) are pretty confusing.

675 Well, I can't partake in the silliness. It's illegal, and would send the wrong message to my students. I'm honest about my prior silliness, but I want kids to respect the law.

Now, if we're being honest, I don't believe in that particular law, so I ignore it. But I don't let my students know. I partake in the silliness quite often.

Why can't Ethier hit enough for the corner? The average ML team is getting a 781 OPS out of right field this year. Ethier has a lifetime 837. At 25 he should still get a bit better. I think 25 HR, .300 BA is a very reasonable estimate for the next 3 years, and perfectly respectable for a cheap right fielder. Of course, a month ago he looked like a fourth outfielder to me.

675 I tell kids the same thing. When you serve four years in the military, graduate from a UC with honors, read three books a month, and volunteer time for any number of causes, you can fool around with silliness. Until then, stay away.

Leave the silliness to the grownups.

I just partake in the silliness.

680 But the silliness is for accomplished people. Partaking is okay, as long as you are a hard working, successful person. When people partake in the silliness, and don't accomplish anything...That's what makes the silliness look bad.

Downing glasses of whiskey is okay, no matter who you are. Partaking in the silliness needs to be the work of successful people, because the silliness has a negative stigma. I'd prefer that the silliness be the choice of successful people. The silliness has such a bad rap.

678. I don't think the problem lies with Ethier, but rather that Pierre and his lack of production place additional demand on the rest of the outfield. Taken as a whole, is an outfield of Ethier, Pierre, Kemp good enough for LA? I would take Ethier à la carte. :)

With the activation of Marlon Anderson the Mets will be bringing 7 ex-Dodgers to town. They are Loduca, Sele, Alomar, Valentin, Mota, Green and Anderson.

i don't understand why we're even debating ethier's value. he is currently #26 in all of baseball in ops, and 15th in average. his power is developing and he is not eligible for free agency until after the 2011 season.

btw, he's totally cute (have i mentioned this? mark my words, you're going to see a lot of girls at dodger stadium wearing #16. call it the jeter effect.)

should mention that i meant 684 as a concurrence to 678 (except for that least part about ethier being cute, of course. i don't expect much agreement here. at least, not openly.)

he is currently #26 in all of baseball in ops

And Mark Hendrickson is the 8th best lefthander in the NL.

686 what the hell does that even mean? by what standard? and even if that were true, my point included all ofs in baseball. it wasn't limited to lefthanded hitters or even just the nl.

also, are you suggesting that ops does not matter? if so, that's a pretty strange argument coming from a sabremetric baseball fan who is also a mathematician.

685 - i don't know. after all this discussion of wang talking about how cute ethier is seems perfectly reasonable. yes, i'm 12 years old.

687 - I think he justs likes you not liking him.

686. Hmmm....who really are the top 7 NL lefties? I know where your reference comes from, but inquiring minds are curious...

Kent has no trade value
Nomar has no trade value
Loney, Martin, Kemp will not get traded
Gonzo has no trade value
Pierre has no trade value

So unless your going to trade pitching for pitching, Ethier would seem to be the best trading chip the Dodgers have on the major league roster. That doesn't mean we don't like him or don't appreciate his value. It just means we have a ready replacement for him in Kemp, with D Young ready to step up as the 4th outfielder and that we need some rotation help if Wolf is unable to pitch at his April/May levels.

684 "going to" vs. "currently will"

I see tons of Ethier jerseys out there on the ladies. The high pitched cheers for the man when he comes to the plate is also a dead giveaway.

From yahoo sports recap of yesterday's pads game:

"Maddux had thrown just 65 pitches -- 49 for strikes -- and allowed four singles through five innings when he told manager Bud Black that he was tired and had felt something in his left hamstring."

What was that? A ballplayer who felt it was better to NOT play through the pain. What a revelation. Wish some of our dodgers (and former dodgers) would take a lesson from Maddux.

687 Oswald -- just in case it's not clear (it might be, this thread is about seven leagues over my head) -- that 8th best lefthander thing is sort of stock joke here. When Hendrickson was acquired, that is how he was described by the team.

It was considered not the most meaningful description.

The Angels are going to be starting before I finish my morning coffee.

That can't be right.

695

Drink up!

I wonder about all of the enthusiasm to trade Mattingley. I don't think he has any trade value, yet. He is extremely raw and still not producing. It's not like DeWitt, who was extremely highly regarded even when he wasn't producing. Mattingley is the kind of guy, I'm not even going to pay expect anything out of until his 3rd full season of pro ball.

Is today the Boston Marathon?

D4p - more Boras stuff over at "Soul of Baseball".

698
I guess since yesterday's Dodgers game started at 12:10 PT, there's not much to complain about.

698 The Boston Marathon of Tampa/St. Petersburg

698
Boston Marathon is on Patriots Day in April

As far as Ethier I don't understand the talk that he can't be a corner outfielder. He isn't going to hit more than 15-20 HR's, but he can play both corner outfield spots pretty well and his OPS speaks for itself. I can see him being a 320 - 330 hitter no problem, except for his post-shoulder injury last year and his slow start this year, he is about there.

Both he and Kemp are making it extremely difficult to keep Pierre in the lineup every day. Betemit is as well at 3rd and with Abreu down now, hopefully we'll see Wilson at 2nd some now instead of Martinez. I'm hoping that was the thought. Pierre needs some days off and Grittles can pinch run him if he wants to keep his consecutive games streak alive.

Billz gritted it out yesterday despite admittedly not having much FB. Said he pitched backwards to try to compensate.

He struggled, put up too high a pitch count, yada yada. But the silver lining in the high pitch count is that building it makes him more likely to go deeper in other games, when he does have his great stuff. Also, he was facing a pretty potent lineup.

And the ability to win--or at least not lose--when a pitcher doesn't have his best stuff is a hallmark of a major league winner.

There will be other times when he struggles but loses. All pitchers have them. But the way he handled yesterday as well as past starts when he hasn't been at his best but still mostly kept the team in the game bodes very, very well for the future.

If this is about as bad as he usually will be, what's his best going to look like? I'm eager to see it.

Sorry if this was posted previously, Billingsley's rationale for his "less than efficient" start yesterday:

"I couldn't get the right release point on my fastball," he said. "I didn't have a good feel for it."

So he flip-flopped his routine.

"I came with the off-speed pitches first," he said, "and the fastball later in the count. It's the opposite of what I normally do."

Also, if you've not seen Jerry Crowe's column in the LATimes, it's a nice read. "Text messages from the press box", an ode/update to Mallamud's "Notes on a scorecard" (get it?)

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-crowe19jul19,1,5318732.story?coll=la-headlines-sports&ctrack=7&cset=true

In my mind the only mystery concerning Ethier is which half of a season is the real Ethier. The first half of 2006 and second half of 2007 or the second half of 2006 and first half of 2007.

If the Dodgers were to trade somebody for a starting pitcher that might make a difference I might offer Furcal to Boston if I knew more about Hu's ability and readiness or thought Abreu could suffice at short the rest of the way.

701 The Angels played a morning game in Boston on Patriots Day because of the marathon.

Rosenthal is talking about a Dotel-for-Abreu rumor, and he's shooting it down from the Dodgers perspective.

Back in May and June, I was hoping that Ethier would begin hitting to re-establish his trade value. But now that he is hitting, I don't want to trade him anymore.

And Ethier can't play centerfield because that's where Pierre plays.

From today's Soul of Baseball entry: "Bonds has... become a symbol. He's like modern art."

How great is that? There's much more of course.

http://thesoulofbaseball.blogspot.com/

704 Boston is starting Julian Tavarez - they need starting pitching. The Dodgers won't even rest Furcal for a day; they are not going to entrust SS in the stretch drive to Abreu, Hu, I Don't Give a Darn, etc.

705

I remember now.

I still cringe at Ned making a trade for a starter even though we probably need one. We will pay a lot for someone mediocre I'm sure if he does pull the trigger. Next week and a half will be interesting.

I think Ethier is a problem at a corner because he neither walks (though that is starting to improve) nor hits for power.

Because of this, he walks a very fine line between solid player, and worthless. If he hits .300, he's a fine player. If one less hit falls every two weeks, he drops into .270/.320/.410 territory, and that doesn't help anyone.

691 Kent has no trade value

Really? I can think of several contenders who have holes at 2b and would probably jump at him if given a chance. Think he wouldn't put SD or Cleveland over the top? Or the Angels, even, given Kendrick's issues?

I'm not even suggesting we trade him, because we can't sacrifice the power. If we want Betemit's bat in the lineup, that should happen at 3b, and subbing for other infielders.

709 A no-hitter through six is "interesting". The next week and a half will be anxiety-ridden.

711 Kent's trade value might be higher if he were a two-month rental, rather than coming with his 550 PA vesting option.

So the next time Kent (power hitter) gets a day off and Lucille II (banjo hitter) starts, don't the Dodgers need to get another power bat into the lineup in place of a banjo hitter to balance it out - like Kemp into CF?

He's traded for starting pitching twice. One brilliant trade of Izzy for Maddux and one pointless trade for Hendrickson. Why is everyone convinced he will make a bad trade? If he doesn't trade for Maddux we aren't in the playoffs

Why is everyone convinced he will make a bad trade?

Because Ned fluctuates between decent moves and thoroughly unfathomable moves. I'll give him credit for not trading the monster prospects, but I really believe that's other people like Ng and White in his ear.

When you give bad baseball players 44 million dollars, people are going to be concerned.

714

I have to give him credit on the Maddux trade. I liked it at the time and it worked out very well, but other than that his free agent signings and other trades have been mediocre at best and downright damaging at worst. He hasn't ended up giving much away, but we are saddled with bad contracts in the future (Pierre, Schmidt, Nomar possibly). It is only a matter of time before he gives away a valued prospect that turns into a star for an overhyped veteran.

714 I'm not convinced that he will; I'm just worried that he might. I would be pleased to see an Izturis4Maddux type trade. Do we have a comparable commodity this year?

Other then the Juan Pierre contract I've had no problem understanding any of the motives behind his trades and free agent signings. Some have worked out some haven't but other then JP I would have no problem going head to head with the brightest of DT to debate why any of the deals were made at the time of the transaction as long as we don't use hindsite in the debate but the facts as they were when the such deals were consumated, so unfathomable seems over the top.

684
My wife concurs with Oswald's assessment. Of course, she had a crush on Rickey Henderson growing up as an A's fan, so I'm not sure if we can put much weight behind her evaluation of baseball player attractiveness.

As for Ethier's on the field talents, I think he's worth keeping around. At current levels, he pencils out to a very productive, capable, flexible (able to play two if not three spots), and cheap outfielder. And since it's vogue these days to go with gut feelings (you can call me Chertoff) instead of that pesky data stuff, my instincts tell me that we haven't seen his best. Of our top tier prospects, I agree he seems to be the obvious and most painless choice to deal, but I think we would end up with some serious regrets if that actually came to fruition.

717 - Do we have a comparable commodity this year?

Betemit? Ethier? Guys who have proven it at the major-league level and are currently at log-jammed positions.

I don't see a Maddux out there available. You might get a chance at someone like Kyle Lohse, but he looks pretty similar to Brett Tomko.

I don't really see the point in trading for a fringe starter just to add a warm body to the stable. But do you want to let go of one or two of (Kemp, Loney, Billingsley, Kershaw, LaRoche) for someone like Javier Vazquez?

717 Our Izturis-type commodity this year is also playing out of position at third base, is popular with the fans, and can't seem to hit his way out of a paper bag.

Are there points for creativity? We can't know how the trade was negotiated. But let's say the Cubs called up Ned and said we like Izzy we'll give Maddux for him. I mean any pause is for effect, not to actually think about it. That one was a no brainer. On the other hand if he said I bet I can get some schmuck to give me a decent starter for a backup shortstop with no bat, well then that deserves some credit.

715 Name one general manager that doesn't make a bad move now and then.

And again, despite what we may all think, Juan Pierre has pretty much done what could have been expected by management so in their minds, they got what they paid for thus far in the season.

Somehow I always get the feeling that to certain posters (and operators of premium baseball websites) that the Dodgers' success during the past year and a half has come in spite of both Ned and Grady. If Ned is listening to his stafff (and yes, Ng and White both work for him) then good for him.

722 - Apparently the Maddux trade wouldn't have happened without first making the Lugo trade.

In retrospect, that was a really great couple of trades. We got rid of Izturis, gained Maddux and his great 2nd half, made the playoffs, and got the 2 picks for Lugo.

718 Take away the fact that Princip shot Ferdinand, and Princip is probably a decent guy too. But we can't choose to ignore things. Especially big things.

Despite the fact that I believe Colletti might be a buffoon, he has not been a terrible GM, and I readily concede that. He's been okay. I will, however, always be nervous, because he signed one of the fundamentally dumbest contracts in Dodgers history. I can't ignore that. He's capable of doing it again.

723
I have to give Ned credit for making the playoffs last year. I thought during the 2nd half slump we had, we should build for the future rather than go for the playoffs, and I was wrong. However, that doesn't mean I have to like anything else he has done, although he should be given credit for not dealing the young talent at least. It could be a lot worse.

Name one general manager that doesn't make a bad move now and then.

There are bad moves, and there are bad moves. Not all bad moves are equal. Some bad moves are bad. Others are baaaaaaaaaaaaaad.

New post up top.

716 The Dodgers aren't really saddled with many bad contracts. All the big money deals (Furcal, Schmidt) were short term.

As of right now, here are the large contracts we have for 2008 that will end after 2008:

Furcal - $13m (plus one $4m payment due in 2009)
Kent - $9m (if he doesn't retire)
Lowe - $10m
Nomar - $9.75m (includes signing bonus)
Wolf - maybe $9m (if he hits 180 IP)

All those are coming off the books after 2008. The only large deals beyond 2008 are Schmidt, Pierre, and Penny. I'd say the Dodgers are pretty flexible from a payroll standpoint.

Colletti was just on WFAN in NY. The podcast isn't up yet, so to sum it up Ned said he's looking for pitching, said there aren't really any good starters available, and that he's comfortable with the hitting as it now stands. He was asked about Teixeira, and he basically said why would he want to trade for a first baseman when he already has a future star in James Loney.

"he basically said why would he want to trade for a first baseman when he already has a future star in James Loney."

Can you elaborate?

723- They expected him to drop 79 OPS points (9 OPS+ points) from last year?