Interesting. Top 10 in OPS in July:

1. Phillies
2. Cardinals
3. Dodgers
4. Rockies
5. Marlins
6. Braves
7. Astros
8. Brewers
9. Nationals
10. Reds

So does anyone know why the IE browsers at my workplace fail to refresh this page if I hit "refresh". It only refreshes if I make a comment. And I'm not that egocentric.

2 Maybe your office has a proxy cache?

From Inside the Dodgers
Furcal, SS
Pierre, CF
Loney, 1B
Kent, 2B
Gonzo, LF
Nomar, 3B
Kemp, RF
Lieberthal, C
Hendrickson, P

Nice to see Martin get a day off. Besides Nomar, the lineup isn't too bad. I'd rather see Ethier in there than Gonzalez (or Pierre), but those two need to play (well at least Ned/Grits think so). Ethier is on fire right now.

From last thread - 276. ishXdavid
269 - Kemp doesn't drive balls oppo like Manny. Kemp reminds me of a polished 2002 Beltre.

ishxdavid that's a pretty good observation when he's RIGHT he's got a pretty swing theres no question about that.

3
And would this be a good thing (like the frozen yogurt) or a bad thing (like the cursed frozen yogurt)?

6- 2002 Beltre went oppo all year....And Kemp has done so this year as well.....Kemp is in the Manny/Miggy mold of reative hitters...who do it with hand/eye coordination, strenght ans quick hands, and not because of a polished swing....

7
So Adrian Beltre went to the opposite field because the Dodgers used a proxy cache server?

I'm really confused now.

8- I thought it was because of bone chips...?

Beltre's bone chips were shards of cursed frozen yogurt.

From previous thread - 268- Kemp's hitting reminds me nothing of Pujols, and everything of Manny....

Kemp has a non-stride similar to Pujols and Edmonds. He just kinda lifts that front foot and sets it back down. Hey, if it's good enough for Albert....

Presumably Jon is hoping he doesn't end up having to use the next post title in this sequence (August, die we must).

I don't remember Beltre hitting oppo. field hits back in 2002. I remember him hitting them in 2004, but in 2002, I remember him still trying to pull pitches that were waaaay outside.

3 Good thing for IT folks responsible for network traffic, mostly good thing for regular users, occasionally problematic thing for browser-refreshing users.

13- Your right...I automaticall thought 2004, because Kemp being compared to anyone must be favorable right?

Didn't Beltre almost die in 2002?

15. Well he is the Bison.

16 Yes, he went to Akbar and Jeff's House O' Appendectomies.

14
Actually, I think this browser seems to update pages correctly.

It's a new CPU so it may have a different configuration than the old one.

I just got some spam from a sender named "Tolerant Rodgers." It's not Conceptualization Gibbs, but I'll take it.

Rats -- it's actually "Tolerant Rogers."

Speaking of great names, Ludovicious Van Mil, a 7-foot-1 Twins pitching prospect, gave up one run in three innings last night and is sporting a 2.77 ERA on the season.

5 That 400+ foot triple to the deep right-center triangle in SF was driven "oppo" by Kemp, so it is possible.

Josh Rawitch posted this as a comment in his ItD blog:

--The only player that they wouldn't think of trading away would be Martin. They don't see trading any of the young guys (Kemp, Loney, Ethier) but as Ned said, "I'm from Chicago. You know, the Godfather? 'Make me an offer I can't refuse' and we'll see what happens."
--When the roster is expanded to 40, they could see Delwyn coming up from AAA.

1a. I hope Ned is smart enough to know what he can refuse.

1b. Chicago? Godfather?

2. I think that means no D Young before 9/1, barring the unforeseen roster opening.

Did anyone read Rosenthal´s article on Fox Sports.com? I hope Ned doesn´t read it, Loney shouldn´t be traded.

1b. Chicago? Godfather?

What a buffoon.

22 13 IP, 6 H, 9 BB, 11 K

I would like to see a 7' 1" guy pitch.

"I'm from Chicago."

Sabean pulls a knife, Ned pulls a gun. You send one of ours to the hospital, he'll send one of yours to the morgue.

24

Ned "ain't right" if he thinks that way i hope i'm miss reading the quote.

Sure, if the offer is Roy Oswalt for Andre Ethier then he can go ahead and not refuse it.

27 "I would like to see a 7' 1" guy pitch."

Ah, the beauty of YouTube. Hereby presenting Ludovicious Jacobus Maria Van Mil.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws_ONjlc8_A

The thing I like about YouTube is that it lets people post videos of stuff.

By the way, I haven't seen this discussed yet -- Baseball America updated their Top 100 prospects list and The Minotaur ranks sixth. LaRoche is 30th.
http://www.baseballamerica.com/online/prospects/features/264495.html

31

pretty boring video but yeah your right the dude is tall

31 Imagine if he had a longer stride!

33 You got a username and password for that?

36 Oops, I thought it was one of their freebies. Anyway, it doesn't say much other than to note that Kershaw has only given up two homers this year and both of them were in all-star games.

the Saito peace on The Times was really great, wow i didn't realize how tough Saito had it in his 1st spring training.

37 Nope. Btw, who is the number one prospect in baseball these days?

37

thats false. hes given up two in non all star games to go along with one in each of the two all star games he participated in.

This umpire is giving delayed strike calls. I hate delayed calls.

39 The top five on their list are Upton, Bruce, Maybin, Longoria, and Bailey.

39

justin upton of the dbacks.

Josh Rawitch also posted Ned and Grady as stating that "--Rumors about trading to get Dye are just that: rumors."

Let it stay a rumor. I don't want this year's weak Dye to stain the Dodgers' season with his .229 .283 .438 line.

Past a diving Loney. :(

the extra innings package hasn't moved to the dodgers game yet. the preceding game, boston and KC, is running long. AL games frequently do.

I am reduced to starting tonight with the MLB.TV offering.

uh oh, shaky start for Hendy. 1-0 Phillies in the 1st inning

The home plate ump's strike zone tonight is approximately the size of Pierre's head.

46

do you have MOSAIC Sam? i've heard that feature on MLB.Com is really good.

48 - with or without the hat?

48 without

the chairs aren't even worm yet Hendy come on!

47 Well he is pitching on two days rest. Martinless lineups have performed very poorly this year (2-7 I think). Hopefully, though, this guy with a 13.50 era will give em right back up.

49 - I believe I have it, but haven't tried it yet. MLB.TV is strictly a backup to the extra innings package.

but now that you mention it, I have been meaning to check it out.

51 - that's still pretty big.

Mercifully, the Boston-KC game finally ends.

52 Worm chairs? Maybe I shouldn't go the Dodger Stadium. ;-)

Ah, Mrs. ARod's T-shirt.

Well, Rowand is .900 OPS guy at the moment.

KC finally finished beating boston. waiting for the switchover . . .

ahhhhh. normalcy restored.

Uh, oh. Four hits now in the 1st.

[rule 1 violation]

somehow I don't get the feeling that mark hendrickson is impressed by the fact that I have finally arrived.

BOO!!!

Five hits. This may not be the good Hendrickson today. Maybe that 28 pitch stint in SF took too much out of him.

And Houlton pitched yesterday.

Ok, J.D. Durbin time.

62 Somehow I don't think you have any effect on what happens in the game.

should we look for Stults?

can we expect anything else from learch

53

Good point, in all seriousness he's done a great job in relief & spot starts (super utility pitcher?) hopefully he'll regroup & keep us in the game.

28 pitches for Hendrickson in the first. If he can complete the next four in 52 pitches and allow no runs, the start will be mediocre, but acceptable.

What are the odds of that?

66 - seems unfair. he is having quite an effect on me tonight.

48 Better that it be the size of Barry Bonds' head.

Um, folks, I would not exactly be worried about a three run lead when JD Durbin is the opposing pitcher...

Durbin:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/durbijd01.shtml

Phillies are clearly desperate.

I hate delayed strike calls.

Juan Pierre strikes out swinging. Two out.

The reason why pitchers love the Dodgers...

Durbin does have four career GIDPs:
Brandon Phillips
Carlos Beltran
Albert Pujols
Wilson Valdez

Durbin maintains his career K/BB ratio of 1.0.

I've been posting at the last conversation. Finally figured it out after about three unanswered.

And Hendrickson can't get the pitcher out.

AS I unfortunately already said, a nice lead can make a guy like Durbin look like Drysdale.

Get Stultz up.

79. there was at least nothing to worry about in that conversation. this one, well . . .

Lurch is in fine form tonight.

And then he dots a guy in the back!

Write this game off, but please don't trade for pitching. Let Loney pitch if you must.

82

seriously, Hendy obviously doesn't have his A stuff today. Come on Grady tell Honeycutt to get Stultz up.

85 He couldn't do worse than Hendrickson right now.

Loney would actually be much more effective.

So which starting pitcher will we be getting before the deadline?

looks like Honeycutt is ringing the bullpepn.

A good throw would have been a 3-2-3 DP. Sigh.

nice play by Lieberthal.

Very nice play by Lieberthal.

Bases juiced, no outs, Utley, Howard, Rowand, Burrell due up. Nice.

Loney had a plus 90 mph fastball as a highschool pitcher.

Ooo... strikes howard out swinging. Stop toying with us Hendy.

Still waiting to exhale.......

That did sound like he tipped the ball...didn't it?

93

considering he catches once a month.

98 Looked like a clean whiff to me.

I can tell you one thing about MLB.TV mosaic. it is a pain to install . . . .

haha i cant believe he got out of that.

GRRRR

Hendrickson pulls a Russ Ortiz in the second!!

Good God, bases loaded and he get outs of it without giving up a run. Really, stop toying with us.

103

We can empathise.

Oh man.

Nice high wire act by Hendy.

That's why I prefer runners on second and third instead of bases loaded. Takes the fielder's choice away from the defense.

105 Utley, Howard and Rowand with the bases loaded. What better look can he give the Phillies?

When it was bases loaded, 0 outs I could picture Ned picking up the phone. After each out he puts it a little closer to the cradle. Repeat every inning.

47 pitches for Hendrickson.

112 two more innings left at most

106- Not me. I would consider empathizing, but I'm not going to get all pinky-finger-extended about it.

This Coste guy at catcher sure waited a LONG time to get to the bigs. 33-years old last year in his first season.

OK, MLB.TV Mosaic IS pretty cool.

the multigame screens are really, really grainy, and when you go to view a single game in "full screen", it has to reconnect, and all that takes time.

Hit for him.

Charley Manuel scares the heck out of me now.

more on mosaic; and the audio has a definite "tinny" sound to it.

You gotta be pretty wild to go 3-0 to a 6'9" pitcher.

At this rate, Durbin will have a respectable ERA.

Is that Hendrickson at full tilt? He's slower than Loney.

Nomar showing off his cannon arm, cool.

In better news, the Mets lead the Padres in the bottom of the fourth.

Nomar and Lieberthal both make great plays tonight. I wonder if LuGo's next.

6 pitch inning! Bless you Philadelphia.

And Nomar.

119

i guess the word on MOSAIC was false cause i heard it was really good. I guess it was only in the "look" department.

Nomar has a weird throwing style but the end result are bee bees to Loney so i'm cool with it.

jd durbin shutting us down are you kidding me?

How long has there been that little hill out in center?

127 - Likewise!

I'd expect that Mosaic's performance depends a lot on connection speed. I don't use it, but the ad at MLB.com for it says that it can pull up to 1.5 mbps, about twice what DSL is capable of. People with cable, or better, ISP's probably have a significantly different experience from those with DSL.

7 hits in three innings, eh?

133- Basic DSL. DSL can be fast, too. It's just usually not.

129 - I am still tweaking it. you can take the resolution up to as far as your broadband can handle it. there are a LOT of alerts you can set. if I was into fantasy baseball, it would be a "must have".

six games at one time will very nearly cause sensory overload, grainy little screens or not.

lots of features. I am still playing with it.

Come on Hendy, pitcher leading off the inning again, don't screw this at bat up.

Never mind

134 It was 5 hits in 1 inning.

Now comes the second-leading outmaker in the league.

ok grady get him out of there

Wow, Hendrickson gives 2 hits to Durbin and strikes out Howard 2 times.

133 - I have already seen it pull 1.3mbps (it actually tells you), and I have only been running it 30 minutes or so.

my cable connection is about 6mbps, so that isn't really a problem, but six screens DO max out my CPU . . .

132 The pleasure is mine.

What hill? On the field or over the fence?

Grady now wondering why he and Ned haven't already gone to the 12-man pitching staff.

133

Time Warner offers 3 types:

1)Basic
2)Standard
3)"Premium"

I have standard so i'm sure it would work good on my PC.

The DP has to come into play sooner or later, doesn't it?

Pull the plug ALREADY Grady please. sigh.

why do u test fate twice grady

Pierre just did a massive face plant in the wall. Good effort.

It looked on the flyout to Rowand last inning that the warning track dirt in center piles up beneath the wall, there was less space between the ground and padding directly behind where the ArRow caught that one...almost like the Houston centerfield except not nearly as ridiculous.

...and watch the Hawaiian fly!!

ToyCannon's boy strikes again.

why is rick honeycutt going out to the mound and not grady

Mrs. ARod's T-shirt. A(nother) triple.

[134] i spoke too soon

I'm glad Pierre's okay. I'd have felt bad laughing the way I did if he'd been hurt.

Don't you guys remember? Grady doesn't know how to pull the plug.

Thank God we only traded Navarro and Seo for this guy.

ghosts of our pasts (Victorino) are coming back to haunt us.

You know, when you consider how much time and energy has been spent here crying over spilled milk when it comes to bad moves by Dodger GM's (not that there is anything wrong with that, to a point), I really can't understand how little anybody seems to care about Shane Victorino. I get hot with anger just reading Victorino's name in a boxscore. DePo essentially sold him to the Phillies for $50,000 because he wanted the 40-man roster space to protect Brian Myrow, and then refused to take Victorino back from the Phillies at a price of $25,000 when the Phillies had to offer him back. What makes it all the more mysterious (people's apathy) is that if that transaction had not occurred, there simply is NO Juan Pierre in Dodger Blue. When you are considering bad consequences of Dodger transactions, that practically elevates the Victorino loss to the level of the Pedro and Konerko trades.

Lets spell it out: Victorino came into tonight's game hitting .278/.347/.431, with 28 SB's in 30 attempts. He is a better defensive center fielder than Pierre and has just been moved to RF by the Phillies because he is blocked by Rowand in center and in sharp contrast to Pierre he has a great arm. Victorino's salary is probably around $500,000, if that. Pierre came into tonight's game hitting only .286/.316/.340, with 38 SB's in 47 attempts, and we owe him $44 million over the next five years. To quote the catchphrase of a character in the old McHale's Navy TV series, "I could just scream."

Guess, we leave Hendy in till he gives up 10 runs.

156

You're so callous. That young man gets to the park before anyone just to practice his wall faceplants for two hours a day.

157.

That trade is looking like a wash about now

looks like hendy's gonna need another trip to the sports shrink after tonight.

Maybe Grady just didn't Stultz to have to start with Utley, Howard, Rowand.

159 - What can I say? I plead guilty.

159- We also wouldn't have Juan Pierre if Colletti had just not signed him.

...and watch the Hawaiian fly!!

he was our Hawaiian for a while but the Dodger brain trust traded him. I heard Dan Evans was non to please about that decision (he didn't wanna trade him) when it all went down.

I hope the posts about MLBTV mosaic aren't too annoying. I am watching the game, but mosaic isn't nearly as depressing at the moment.

my quickly forming judgment is that mosaic is very, very cool. other than a sports bar, I can't think of another way of watching six games at one time. a little earlier, I was watching all four NL west games simultaneously.

Mosaic is definitely a keeper.

ok, back to the game.

They've officially outscored us for the series, for now I hope.

Um, Howard was the one guy Hendrickson was getting.....

and boom. I can hear das411 from here.

I really hope Stults gets it together, because he's not coming out for a while, no matter what.

Six straights hits - just one of those nights at the ballpark.

{159}

i thought it all went down during the Dan Evans administration?

171 Amen to that.

Of course, I think we should have Kemp playing center regardless of Pierre or Victorino or anyone else.

Peavy not doing too well, for his standards.

So Hu is 3-3 tonight with a triple, all on line drives. His AAA BA is now 538.....

173 That Rule V draft was late '04, the attempted return in spring '05. DePodesta.

Victorino OPS+
2006 92
2007 102

Even if he was kept, there would still have been clamoring for an upgrade, I think.

176 - indeed. the mets have scored 3 runs on six hits in 5 innings.

I wonder if he will suffer from the "All Star Starter Second half Swoon Syndrome"?

Delwyn is no longer the hottest hitter in Vegas. Hu has three more hits tonight, is now hitting .538 and has an OPS of 1.538.

Dodgers are just setting up the Phillies for payback for this game:

http://tinyurl.com/2wsvzb

173 Victorino was actually lost by the Dodgers to the Rule 5 draft twice. The first time was in 2002 (Dan Evans administration) to the Padres, but he was returned in May 2003. The second time, mentioned in 159 was in 2004 (DePo) to the Phillies.

i was with in 2 feet of Dan Evans once in the Upper Deck store (top of the park store? i don't know how they call it) he seemed like a very down to earth dude. He was wearing a Hawaiian shirt non the less.

There, on that flyout to Pierre!! Nobody else saw that mound in center?

159 - Well on behalf of all of us, I for one thank you for Shane-o, who has rapidly proven himself to be the anti-Abreu...

I just hope that Ned doesn't make an ill-advised move and trades away one of our budding young stars to acquire a journeyman pitcher...

167 -- We didn't trade Victorino. DePo didn't want him and let the Phillies take him in the Rule 5 draft. Why would Evans have cared? Evans was working for the Mariners by that time.

183 Glad you were able to scrape yourself off the ceiling after than offensive outburst.

182 - I sat a few rows behind him and kim ng at vero one afternoon. they both seemed like very normal people.

I strained to listen for any little nugget of wisdom, but as I recall, the only thing I came away with was that he didn't like his hot dog.

So....

Things were bound to unravel at some point. Didn't expect there to be such a disastrous single inning (which is finally over, huzzah! a sarcastic cheer arises from the crowd), but there you go.

I'm going camping tomorrow 'til Friday, away from e-mail or anything so for the first time in awhile I'll be clueless about the Dodgers. Hopefully they'll look less clueless tomorrow when Billingsley pitches. It's probably a good thing I can't browse the web on my cell phone or I'd be racking up some charges while gone.

Please keep the team from making any dumb trades while I'm gone.

184. like, say, mark hendrickson?

182 I met Dan Evans at a Dodgers Fantasy Camp in Vero Beach a few years ago. I was sitting at the next table and noticed how attentively he was listening to Duke Snider as the two talked. Afterwards, I introduced myself to Evans and told him that I was a lifelong fan of the Dodgers and that I lived in Central California. He said whenever I wanted to see the Giants play, I should drop him an e-mail. I did that season, a few months later. The same day he e-mailed me and put aside four great seats behind home plate at then Pac Bell Park.

Hmm, with the Philly bullpen, that might actually be possible.

188 Where are you going?

The AFLAC question needs refiguring since Hornsby and Lajoie had RBIs while playing positions other than second base.

185 see {181}

it first went down in 2002 & then in 2004, 2 TIMES!! can you believe that!

i think i've seen enough of shane dodgerkillerino.

188 Watch out for cougars.

Kent gets it rolling.

[181] i'm pretty sure i was at that game. i was only 9 though so i don't remember all that well.

193 So does Jeff Kent.

Something's wrong with my MLBTV display - it just showed Rich Donnelly holding up a runner at third. What really happened?

did the wind stop? the Donnelly windmill stopped spinning . . .

Surprised "windmill" Donnelly didn't send him in.

196 Nice

the dodger notes today about Ethier is a pretty good read.

almost caught that with his bare hand after he kicked it to himself.

192 Big Basin SP, redwoods near Sta Cruz. Should be nice and foggy and redwoody.

196 I've heard raccoons are the only critter that may annoy us there - or make a grab for our food more accurately.

Good to see someone beside us can have ridiculous luck. (as well as ridiculous videos)

Hopefully, this is when Durbin's 10+ ERA starts to show it's face

NOt exactly what we were looking for Kemp, but it works.

189 We gave up Seo and Navarro for Hendrickson, and we also got cash and Toby Hall! So, I can't complain too much about that deal.

193 Is that why Lajoie didn't show up on Baseball Reference's PI when I looked it up? (Okay, I cheat on the Aflac trivia...)

Man how station to station. I guess I shouldn't complain.

200,2001,202

no kidding

196 And yeah, the other kind of cougar probably isn't much of a threat in that area either.

Kind of have to bat Stults here. Alas.

I don't see how giving away a guy that would be generously described as a mediocre ballplayer is considered a gargantuan mistake. A mistake sure, but carrying him and Repko on the 40 man seems like a waste.

Victorino had one decent half season in the minors and never walked. It's pretty understandable as to why he was shipped out.

186 - Ahem? Excuse me? SOME of us don't exactly have shutdown bullpens over here...

Even the windmill stops turning freely at 8-1.

What's out avg. with bases loaded?

Laroche homers on a line drive to left field....

212

i feel like he should have sent them.

Now they just need to tell each other how to hit the guy.

218 We were at .218 a couple of weeks ago.

(checks)

We are at .222. Progress!

218- .222/.297/.333

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?team=LAD&year=2007

220 Even if it took a perfect throw and Nomar got nailed, Donnelly would have been crucified (if it actually mattered) for sending him down seven runs.

Nice that the posts lined up with the batting stats. Except that the stats have now changed.

217 - especially considering that it was kent, and then nomar.

Well, it's all over now, baby blue( I think thats Dylan)

Shouldn't we have pinch-hit for Stults there? That may have been our only look at the game.

{thinks twice} on the other hand, given that Stults was going to bat no matter what....

But who played the most games in the majors while playing just one position in the field?

Tonight the Phillies are 0-3 with the sacks full.

230 Mays?

230 Any hints..was he an infielder or outfielder??

230 Fisk? Boone?

Whichever one of those jokers caught the most games, I'm going with them. I'm still wrong, of course.

I thought rollins was dead.

232 Mays played some 1B.

wow, out pitchers are getting tattooed today.

230
Infielder.

Ozzie Smith?

Ryan Howard owns Eric Stults. wow

230 Probably some lead-footed, slugging 1B.

It's just a little airborne, it's still good, it's still good. . .

we're getting humbled by the Phillies today.

I am afraid tonight's game will have ned on his cell phone looking for bullpen help.

The Vegas game is more fun right now.

239
Ozzie Smith has the second most games without playing any other position.

Cripes, enough already

The only thing that can make this palatable is a good fastball in the ribs/bench clearing brawl.

Let's hit Jimmy Rollins.

There are some nights that having Rollins, Victorino, and Utley on one's fantasy team are just about the nicest combo one can imagine...kind of like that Kemp, Kent and Martin combo from yesterday.

Sorry DTers, but you did kinda do the same thing to the Phils last night...

Lead-footed slugging first basemen either don't play a long time or have to go to the outfield some time.

Omar Vizquel?

Okay. Wow.

251 He has a few less games than Ozzie.

230 - is he on the field tonight?

Vizquel has played at second base and right field.

Odd that a very young or very old Ozzie never filled in at 2B.

i picked the wrong time to stop smoking

Lets have Martin pitch....why not.

254
I don't see this player on the field. But he is still among the living.

i really hope Ned isn't making those phone calls.

Eddie Murray?

The Phillies are nine hits short of the LA Dodgers opponents record for hits in a game:

http://retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1958/B05130LAN1958.htm

Eddie Murray?

261
You don't remember Eddie Murray playing third?

264 Nope, I guess I'm not that old.

we can still chip away if i remember correctly the Phills don't have a stellar bullpen.

259 I broke down and looked it up. That's a good question.

264 Scooter?

In the Giants' 26-hit effort against the Dodgers in 1958, Willie Mays had five hits including two two triples and two homers and Darryl Spencer had a double, triple, and two homers.

Barry?

Lou Whitaker?

268
Scooter didn't play long enough. And he played at second base for two games.

The guy who sponsored Phil Rizzuto's bb-ref page wrote the greatest entry.

In my opinion, left field, center field, and right field are different positions.

259 - was he ever a dodger?

215 -- Regfairfield, I wish I could say I was not expecting that response from the guy who calls Chin-Lung Hu a "No-hit shortstop" and used to dump all over Loney while lionizing Hee-Seop Choi. Victorino a mediocre ballplayer? Talking generically about "ballplayers" is often useless, and certainly is in this case. If Victorino were a first baseman that would be one thing, or could only play an outfield corner, but Victorino is a switch-hitting, good defensive center-fielder (currently playing out of position because of circumstances beyond his control) with a lot of pop in his bat for a middle fielder who steals bases, makes peanuts in salary, and is four years from free agency. All of that makes Victorino VALUABLE.

As for the record Victorino had when DePodesta got rid of him, all that is really relevent is that DePo made his decision when Victorino had just hit .328/.375/.584 at age 23 in the pitcher-friendly Southern League and with a pitcher-friendly home park. Age 23 is not old for that league, and the batting line represented that Victorino had made a leap forward in translating his tools into results at that point. You never seem to consider that young players DEVELOP over time, and just want to look at a whole career, even when the career as a whole may be a bad indicator of what a player can do NOW, either good or bad (hence your championing of Odalis Perez long after he turned to crap).

I know it's 11-1, but some outside the box thinking here:

Betemit at SS
Kemp in CF

Baby steps.

Nice. Betemit playing SS.

And my dream outfield is finally reality!

271

it has to be an old timer no?

How about Looey Aparicio?

275
No, and he only played against the Dodgers 10 times.

275 If it is who I think it is, he wasn't a Dodger, but did lose a World Series to them. Think Mike Marshall's ex-girlfriend.

280
There you go!

281 - argh. so much for fred mcgriff.

282

Stan Belinda?

282 Stan Belinda??? Buddy Carlyle??

285 Buddy Carlyle. Oh wait...

Think of the group.

This is no big deal. Many mediocre vet pitchers can pitch very well with a substantial lead, although I know a few who can't.

283 Great question! I'll have to use it at my poker game Friday night.

283 Who is third?

290 "I Am Third"

In the Gurnick Dodger notes article mentioned by Nate earlier, I found this quote amusing:

On Garciaparra, Little wanted to add this: "If the day comes when he couldn't play baseball anymore, he could work out a week or two and play with David Beckham in another sport [soccer], that's the type of athlete the guy is."

If the day comes? :)

Aww and Chutley fails to add to that league-leading RBI total, the bum! ;)

281 Six games against the Dodgers with the White Sox in the 1959 World Series. Four games against the Dodgers with the Orioles in the 1966 World Series.

290 Might be Sam's Fred McGriff.

They should bring up Eric Hull

290
Homer: Is it Batman?
Marge: No, he's a scientist.
Homer: Batman's a scientist?!
Marge: It's not Batman!

276 Admittedly, it takes me too long to shift my opinion on a player, but here's what I see from Victorino.

A guy who followed up his breakout 293 AB with a .235/.278/.335 line in 200 at bats in a launching pad.

A guy whose speed was declining (going from 40+ SB at the beginning of his career to 20+ in 2003 and 2004.)

A guy who doesn't walk at all.

Victorino's entire case rests on those 293 plate appearances in a league that he had already played in for a season and a half. That sudden power spike he developed in Jacksonville went away the second he arrived in Vegas.

When you have Repko, who had very, very similar numbers to Victorino, it's understandable that you would keep him.

I'm not saying that this wasn't a mistake, but it's not a horrible failure.

292 It's ridiculous on face value alone.

290
I don't know who third is. It depends how you want count DHs. If you ignore DHs positions, it's Fred McGriff.

300 When you word the question as you did ("But who played the most games in the majors while playing just one position in the field?"), I would claim that one does not play DH as a position "in the field". But just to be argumentative.

No matter what happens the rest of the night, it's a career game for Mr. Durbin. If he's got any buddies on the team, they ought to be hoisting quite a few for him tonight. 6 IP 6 H 1 R, 4 AB 3 H.

If you want to eliminate McGriff for being a DH, the third place person is Joe Kuhel. 2057 games at first and no others in the field at any other position.

301

You sounded like JoeyP there for a moment.

Now we burn up Seanez for two.

Can Olmedo pitch the ninth? (I do NOT want to see Loney out of position, including pitching, ever again!)

Well, it's been fun. But I gotta run. Good luck to the Dodgers while I'm gone and "see" you all on the weekend. Be nice! It's only one forgettable game.

If I remember correctly, I did not listen to or watch the 1990 Phillies-Dodgers 11-1 comeback game. That was back when Headline News mattered (sans Nancy Grace or Glenn Beck) and I remember eagerly waiting for 20 and 50 minutes past the hour for sports updates. I seem to remember seeing 11-1 or 11-3 during one update, then seeing 12-11 Phillies during the next and I could have sworn it was a typo.

304
No that would be, "Everyone knows that DHs don't play in the field. So you're question is stupid."

307
You can confess. You were watching Lynne Russell.

I've taken people to games like this and then they complain to me afterwards that I took them to a bad game.

As if I had it planned.

Games like this tend to be games when I organize group outings.

I don't organize group outings anymore.

aaron rowand is going to get a big payday this winter.

I will talk about a certain Dodger by name if he comes in to pitch.

I would love to see that.

303 Ahead of Mark Grace only because Grace DHed once and pitched mopup once. Just as someone might tonight.

i seriously picked the wrong day to come back blogging.

Oh, wait. He got pulled. Nevermind.

312 Even a mythological creature can't get activated and here that quickly.

I think Van Earl Wright got his start on Headline News. So it wasn't all good.

This is what the Mongols used to do to towns.

Total death and destruction.

316 I was thinking of the other one.

The guy who plays in the outfield.

I can't avert my gaze. I want to, but I can't.

Who appeared in the most games soley as a pitcher? It's funny because Orosco played two games in the outfield.

Let's look at the bright side. The Padres are getting their face caved in by the steel-toed boot that is the Mets, so the Dodgers remain in first for yet another day.

Dodgers' magic number for the division will be 69 after tonight.

318 Or Vikings. Who come from the land of the ice and snow, from the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.

Correct my math if I'm wrong but the Phillies seem to be 17 for 35 on BABIP tonight for an average of just under .500
vr, Xei

321 Wilhelm?

I believe Mike Stanton added to that record tonight.

Long live the LOOGY!

322 You said 69.

321 I looked it up. Not Wilhelm. Not an easy guess.

Looking at the all-time games pitched leaders, I see Roberto Hernandez is sitting on 988 games.

I have a sinking feeling we will see his 1000th game pitched sometime soon, in Dodger blue.

328 Except for Bob. Who likely wasn't guessing.

Ah but Bob, was your Cycle Alert system in place for those games?

FYI that was Pat's 200th career home run, an dif the offense stays this hot then the upcoming series vs the NL-best Padre pitching staff should be all sorts of fun to watch...since the break the Phils offense has scored 13, 10, 2, 3, and so far 13 runs.

and tonight's red-headed stepchild is: the somehow still hitless Chris Coste!

(still wondering why they have not used Tom Gordon in some of these low-pressure innings though...)

323 Ahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.......Ahhhh!

We should be glad that all the bad happened in the same game, right?

nice hit by Betemit.

328 I checked baseball-reference, and he was who I thought it was.

331 Yeah, save this for the Padres!

Betemit improves to .250/.300/.400 as a RHB this year.

335 That sounds like Dennis Green.

333 Grady picked the right game to rest Martin, as well. Or is Martin not playing part of the bad?

the Mongols were ruthless barbarians but they were the coolest of them all, Genghis Khan was a progressive barbarian witch was unheard of back then. Theres also a motorcycle club called The Mongols MC witch a friend of mind belongs too.

338 Dang, I passed on a "let him off the hook" reply, too.

Ok, had to leave this site for a bit (Had to go to work)...the last question Bob asked..I say the answer is

Lou Gehrig??

340 plus great barbecue! Vikings only offer us lutefisk.

by the way Wikipedia doesn't do the Mongols justice in there page.

342 See 280 283 .

342
Officially, under the rules of the day, Gehrig played a game at short. But he also played a few games in the outfield.

314 No, you picked the right day. Better to commiserate together than wallow in misery alone.

344
Don't go looking for justice in Wikipedia. Go looking for bison!

I pushed for the Dodgers to add 12 pitchers today, and I almost never push for the Dodgers to have 12 pitchers. This is really a shame, to see Broxton in this game.

(I mean add a pitcher to get to 12, not add 12 pitchers.)

344 Neither did John Wayne.

350 - I'll bet there will be 12 pitchers on the team before the night is out.

Does Broxton look about twice the size of Bourn to anybody else??

Besides, Gehrig had a game at shortstop. He never actually played shortstop but officially has a game played there (he singled in the top of the first in that game and was immediately pinch run for)

350 I was thinking the same thing. Broxton went from needing a night off Monday (after appearing in 3 straight in SF) to forced into action Tuesday in a blowout.

Why not throw Houlton out there?

Broxton is going to keep the Phillies from getting to 26 hits.

This pains me.

345 346, Thanx, had me pondering this all the way to work..

it seems unfair that the precious arm of the Blue Ox™ is being used today.

wow I'm slow

Wasn't Stults starting in AAA? He threw 61 or 62 pitchs; could he have gone one more? Then it would be Rudy here in the 8th.

Does Broxton pitch two innings tonight, or are we going to see Saito in the 9th?

348 - Sorry, Jon. It was just a joke.

You guys look like you could do with a cheering up: http://thatvideosite.com/video/3373

298 -- And that is why you DON'T hold it against a player for repeating a league -- as long as the second time around the player is not too old for the league. It is the same principle with Chin-Lung Hu. Loney, Aybar, and Betemit also repeated leagues they were young for the first time around. The rule of thumb is that a position player should produce at Double A no later than age 23, and produce in Triple A no later than age 24. Victorino dominated Double A as a 23-year-old, so when he was promoted to Vegas and fell on his face, I was not bothered, because he was still under 24. My expectation, at that time, was that the following season, at 24, Victorino would adjust to the better pitching and conquer Vegas. Then Depo got rid of him. Was I right to think that Victorino would conquer Triple A the following year? Playing for the Phillies' Triple A affiliate, Victorino hit .310/.377/.534, even improving his walk rate to 51 BB's in 494 AB's. Victorino won the International League's MVP award, and the International League is a less hitter-friendly league than the PCL.

But the thing that just eats away at me is that DePo didn't even trade Victorino, and he didn't even leave him exposed to the Rule 5 draft and then took him back when he failed to make the Phillies out of spring training. No, DePo astonishingly would not take Victorino back when the Phillies had to offer him back for practically nothing. DePo didn't think Victorino was worth literally $25,000. Yes, Colletti should be laughed at, and worse, for thinking Pierre is worth $44 million, but the GM who thought Victorino wasn't worth $25,000 also has to take a big drubbing. Both cases represent, at the GM level, monumental misevaluations of talent and assessments of what given talent is worth, albeit in exactly opposite directions.

And who pitches the ninth?

Seriously, that should be position player pitching time.

Is someone in the crowd ululating?

367 Some poor guy chained to the seat until the bitter end, contemplating gnawing his leg off?

Stults threw 62 pitches in 3 innings. If there was ever a night to have a "take one for the team" outing, it was tonight. Why not have Stults pitch 4 or 5 innings tonight, even if he threw 100 pitches?

The Retro Gameday play-by-play has Betemit, Ethier, Loney and Seanez all just getting consecutive hits in the 7th inning. Who is at the controls?

340. Progressive barbarians? That's an interesting description. They were downright ruthless and fearless warriors. They also had the largest empire the world has ever seen. Probably even had a few Cub fans in their fold. vr, Xei

17-28, 11 runs, 11 RBI for the Phils' 1-5 hitters tonight...wow. just wow.

370 - I just saw that:

--------------------------- MIDDLE 7TH

Bottom 7TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Defensive Substitution: Michael Bourn replaces pitcher J. Durbin, batting 9th, playing left field.

Bottom 7TH B:0 S:0 O:0
Pitcher Change: Mike Zagurski replaces J. D. Durbin, batting 6th, replacing left fielder Pat Burrell.

Bottom 7TH B:0 S:0 O:1
Ramon Martinez pops out to second baseman Chase Utley.

Bottom 7TH B:0 S:1 O:1
Wilson Betemit doubles (8) on a fly ball to left fielder Michael Bourn.

Bottom 7TH B:2 S:0 O:1
Andre Ethier singles on a line drive to right fielder Shane Victorino. Wilson Betemit to 3rd.

Bottom 7TH B:0 S:1 O:1
James Loney doubles (7) on a fly ball to left fielder Michael Bourn.

Bottom 7TH B:1 S:0 O:1
Rudy Seanez singles on a line drive to right fielder Shane Victorino. James Loney to 3rd.

365 Okay, I'm convinced.

The last team to get 23 hits (or more) against the Dodgers was the Phillies back in 1990, but they needed 11 innings.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/LAN/LAN199005190.shtml

I was at this game for about 5 1/2 innings before the date I was taking to the game complained of vertigo from sitting in the Top Deck.

Might Betemit's appearance at SS foreshadow a possible DFA of RM2 to make room for Mr. 12th pitcher?

Yahoo: is frozen here:

M. Bourn in left field
- M. Zagurski relieved J.D. Durbin
- M. Zagurski relieved J.D. Durbin
- M. Bourn in left field
- R. Martinez popped out to second
- W. Betemit doubled to left
- A. Ethier singled to right, W. Betemit to third

Sportsline is good though.

How about Martin catches one inning and Lieberthal pitches?

376 I would imagine Abreu is the man sent down (he has options) to make room for Roberto Hernandez or whomever pitcher #12 will be.

371 I don't know that I'd call it an Empire. Mongols didn't believe in towns, so they razed them. Had Ghengis Khan not died, it's possible (not probable, but possible) that Western Europe as we know it would be wiped away.

But they did occupy more land than anyone. And for that, I tip my cap to the Mongols.

Dodgers need to minimize tonight's Pythagorean damage.

So far as a manager in the majors, Grady Little has never used a position player as a pitcher.

Whoever the relief pitcher is would already have to be in the bullpen warming up, right? This leads me to believe it won't be a position player.

This is so cliche. I've always said, as long as you can cut the lead to single digits heading into the 9th, you've got a chance.

Also, as Bob's note confirms, Grady seems to not believe in using position players as pitchers. He's had several prime opportunities to do it the last couple of years but it hasn't happened.

371

according to the discovery channel or national geographic channel they were, i forget were i saw it.

380. They usually razed them if you didn't do what they wanted... as the Khwarezmian Empire found out. If you laid down your arms and didn't fight them, they tended not to burn down your town.
vr, Xei

2 more hits! 2 more hits!

With 13 hits tonight, the Dodgers have surpassed 10 hits in seven straight games. The only time they've had a longer streak since moving to LA was an eight-gamer in June 1969.

385

i've wanted to see Furcal, Loney or Gonzalez (yes Luis Gonzalez pitch) i guess i can scratch that out now.

ps Luis Gonzalez for giggles of course.

Aww....why not try to stretch that one out, ArRow???

Canuck, do you mind if I repost this Victorino stuff on True Blue L.A.?

Does MLB have a mercy-rule? :) But seriously, can one team choose to forfeit the game at any given point? vr, Xei

387 True, but outside of taxing a town to death, Mongol occupation lacked the administrative infrastructure and longetivity to be considered an empire. They couldn't be bothered with settling or advancing as a culture. Move in, conquer, tax, move out. I mean, yeah, it's an empire in that it's land controlled by a singular culture, but I wouldn't compare it to Rome or the Ottoman Turks or Greater Russia. But it doesn't matter, it's a semantic argument on my part. They were amazing.

FWIW, I don't consider the American War for Independence to be a Revolutionary War. So, I just make silly points.

Am I a bad person for wanting Juan Pierre to pitch?

1. It would save the bullpen.
2. It would be amusing for us.
3. It would be embarrassing for him, given his arm strength.
4. If he hurts himself, who cares?

393
Yes, you can forfeit when you want, but the Commissioner will be pretty ticked off if you don't have a good reason.

!!!!! And Coste can show his face in the clubhouse again!

Bob is standing up right now and chanting "Bourn! Bourn! Bourn!"

{393}

if the Dodgers were ever to do that i'd quite being a Dodger fan on principal alone. I'm one of those Never Retreat Never Surrender types®.

395 You and Brock, but he's already out of the game.

And yes, 2, 3, and 4 make you a bad person. ;)

26 hits! Woo hoo! Ties the Dodgers opponent record!

One more to catch the Brooklyn record!

Field goal, touchdown, two-point conversion and we're in good shape.

Coste off the schneid.

I guess we don't have a mop-up man. It's a shame to have used Broxton tonight, particularly with a day game tomorrow.

401 One step ahead of Vin.

399 I guess Bluebleeder learned more from a three-minute record than he ever did in school.

392 -- No, I don't mind. I hope more people than just you and I are interested in the subject.:)

That was a hit! Too hot to handle!

Boooo!!!

Now we need three scores to take the lead.

I say we can sack Bourn in the end zone.

Oh come on, official scorer man. Give us a hit there.

The Golden God will pinch hit here and hit a 13-run homer.

If the Dodgers tie the game in the ninth, Bob has to buy me a puppy.

A beagle.

win expectancy calculator gives us a win probability of "you've gotta be kidding me!"
vr, Xei

The Rangers and A's got to four sac flies by the sixth inning, but couldn't get the magical fifth one.

Well, guess it was good to see Mike Liberthal have a good game against his old team.

It's not over till it's over...

412
I will buy Greg Brock a beagle and buy him an equivalent amount of gold that weighs the same as the beagle puppy.

Greg will have to name the puppy "Pete Carroll" however.

406

was what i wrote in bold a song? it must be an old song cause i ain't never heard it.

So did I miss anything?

417 Greg Brock, dog named "Pete Carroll", choke chain - bad combination?

Yahoo's Fantasy Baseball site is giving me some pretty amusing news on my players right now.

Howie Kendrick "threw again on Sunday and could be activated in time for the Phillies' seven-game West Coast road trip."

Miguel Cabrera "threw 6 1-3 scoreless innings and allowed three hits in his first start since the All-Star break."

Prince Fielder "met with George Mitchell on Friday, becoming the first active player known to talk with baseball's steroids investigator."

Dmitri Young "was placed back on the 15-day disabled list by the Dodgers on Sunday a little more than two weeks after activating him."

417 Deal.

Hey, everybody! I'm gettin' a puppy!

418
http://www.brucespringsteen.net/songs/NoSurrender.html

Go Deep Kemp!

I'm not getting a puppy.

I will mail the puppy to Greg Brock in pieces.

With apologies to the song about that island off the Southern California shore:

Twenty-six hits we all did see
Philly batters made the game a mock-e-ree
Twenty-six hits, which gave our club
No chance, no chance, no chance

And puppies around the world breathe sighs of relief.

and who else catches the last out? 'night all!

Dodgers should be able to score more than one run off of a pitcher named J.D. Durbin. Of course the Phillies should be able to score a dozen off of Hendrickults.
vr, Xei

Somehow, Shane Victorino collecting the 27th hit against the team that wouldn't buy him back for $25,000 might have made it all worth it.

How anti-climactic would it be if the official scorer, after the game, reverses the ruling on Betemit's error?

oh well, we'll get them tomorrow. have a good night everybody.

394 -- The "American War of Independence" is a good name, but the name "Revolution" can also apply, just not in the same sense as the word is applied to the Fench Revolution. The word "revolution" used to be understood differently (in the 17th and early 18th centuries). It was once synonymous with "restoration" (because in astronomy planetary revolutions involve bodies coming full circle), as opposed to signifying a complete break with the past. Since the American Revolutionaries, notwithstanding the propaganda of Tom Paine, considered themselves to be merely fighting to restore ancient rights that were being unlawfully stripped from them, the American Revolutionaries were involved in a fundamentally conservative enterprise.

433. wow Canuck, do you mind if I quote you on that in my blog? vr, Xei

"considered themselves to be merely fighting to restore ancient rights that were being unlawfully stripped from them, the American Revolutionaries were involved in a fundamentally conservative enterprise."

Wouldn't that make Leonard Peltier a conservative too?

434 -- You have a blog about the American War of Independence/American Revolution?

433 I can go with that. But in the historical sense, it was not a revolution in that it was not a demolition and reconstruction of the social order. The elimination of the three estates and establishment of the legislative assembly/National Assembly makes France a revolution. The Mexican War for Independence occurs 100 years before the Mexican Revolution.

The American War for Independence is a war for independence. I would argue that the American Civil War is the first and last American Revolution.

435 -- I'm afraid I have no idea who that is.

Wouldn't that make Leonard Peltier a conservative too?

Where did my ten foot pole go?

439 Sounds like something Cleavon Little might have said.

440 It's true! It's true!

437 -- But my point was, is, that prior to the French Revolution "revolution" did not mean "demolition and reconstuction of the social order." Practically the opposite. Somewhere in my home I have a photocopied journal article (research for a paper I wrote long ago in university) that deals with how the meaning of the political term "revolution" changed during the Enlightenment to a meaning practically opposite its original meaning, but I can't find the article right now and can't remember where I filed it away, otherwise I would provide a citation.

437 -- But my point was, is, that prior to the French Revolution "revolution" did not mean "demolition and reconstuction of the social order." Practically the opposite. Somewhere in my home I have a photocopied journal article (research for a paper I wrote long ago in university) that deals with how the meaning of the political term "revolution" changed during the Enlightenment to a meaning practically opposite its original meaning, but I can't find the article right now and can't remember where I filed it away, otherwise I would provide a citation.

442 No, that's what I'm saying. I understand that. But it's not the meaning now. It's not how historians consider revolutions now. The meaning of the word has changed. Language evolves (I'm not telling you anything you don't know).

And in today's historical sense, the American War for Independence is not a revolution.

434 -- And Xeifrank, you can quote anything I say on your blog. Forgot to give the permission you requested. But what kind of blog is it? I thought you just has a "Guo" blog.

Look for Chad to right the ship tomorrow. Dodgers pre-game win probability has been set at 65.10%. No way, Chad should lose to Kyle Kendrick. Of course Durbin shouldn't have beat us by a dozen runs. vr, Xei

445. Oh, I got blogs coming out the wahzoo! The Guo blog is on ice (no pun intended). I will find a blog to put it on.
vr, Xei

444 -- We don't seem to be disagreeing with each other, but I think that as long as the American War of Independence is being called the American Revolution in many quarters, it is a good thing to point out that it was a revolutuion in a certain sense, and describe that sense, even if that sense is now considered archaic.

See, now I need to find out who Canuck's favorite Philosophe is, and what he thinks of Burke, and a bunch of other stuff.

Problem is, it's boring as hell to everybody else.

449. YIM? email? My Space?
vr, Xei

450 Good point. I can't have a MySpace (for occupational purposes) I hate instant messaging (for no good reason), but e-mail works.

I've only ever talked to two DTers outside of DT. I talk to bhsportsguy all the time on the phone, but he steals my lunch money whenever we go to a game. That guy is a total bully. And LAT is too tall and handsome to hang out with. Kills my game.

Canuck, what's your e-mail address?

I love Burke. Hate the Enlightenment. Philosophes suck. Their fathers were hamsters and their mothers smelled of elderberries.

Did you ever look up my journal article that I said you can access on-line? It has a nice Burkean reference to society being a union of "the living, the dead, and the yet unborn." One of the scholars who was a "referee" for that piece thought that I should have continued with the Burkean theme, because he believed that philosophy was a better support for a jurisprudence of judicial restaint than that offered by Robert Bork.

Just flew in from Portland, Oregon. Our landing was delayed by the cloud of cordite rising from Dodger Stadium.

Is it because we're playing the Philadelphia Phillies that you're talking about the American Revolution?

I take it Hendrickson's therapist has quit.

452 You hate the Enlightenment? How can somebody hate the Enlightenment?

I am a huge fan of Burke, but I love Diderot and Voltaire. Of course, my political opinion is like my favorite Beatles song. It changes every day.

But really? "Hate" Enlightenment thinkers? Wow.

451 -- rbostan@shaw.ca

453 We're not talking about the American Revolution. We're talking about the American War for Independence. If we were talking about the American Revolution, we would be discussing the Lost Cause and Pickett's Charge and Gettysburg.

Andys current AAA line..

303/388/546 25bb 20k

good enough yet?

455 Added to my address book. Expect a mega-email in the coming days.

456
I'm going to wave the bloody shirt and go to bed.

454 -- Are you familiar with Peter Gay's two volume work on the Enlightenment? The subtitle of the second volume is "The Rise Of Modern Paganism." That phrase nicely sums up what I think the Enlightenment was, at bottom. I said before that I am a Calvinist. I strenuously object to the apotheosisation of human reason. Of course, if you are just talking about politics, well, I can find a lot of common ground with Enlightenment thinkers and those inspired by Enlightenment thinkers (classical liberals especially). I just come to the same or similar political conclusions from a theocratic and conservative, rather than a humanistic and liberal, starting point.

The longest undergrad paper I ever wrote was on Pickett's Charge. 37 pages, something like 20 sources, and I absolutely hated the subject. The American Civil War is the most boring subject ever.

The North had industry, more money, more resources, and more bodies. They won. They were never going to lose. The South never had a chance. It was a five year exercise in futility. The end.

456 Yes, I read your thoughtful post on that after I wrote mine.

Only question is: Was there ever a successful colonial war of independence prior to America's? Given how colonies were viewed by their various mother countries -- particularly the British Empire, as all subjects of the King -- wouldn't "revolution" have been an apt term at the time?

To what degree did the 13 colonies act in concert against the crown prior to the revolutionary period?

In retrospect, I think you have a good point in how you define the war. But it gained the name, "American Revolution" at time it occured, no?

On the other hand, what was once known to all as "The Great War" is now known to all as "World War One," a name I assume it gained only after World War Two commenced.

460 I didn't know you are a practicing Calvinist. It doesn't make much sense to argue specific points once I know this.

I mean, you are a Calvinist. If there is any segment of Christianity that is beyond persuasion, it's Calvinism. I'm not knocking it, I'm not attacking it, and I'm surely not going to sit here and judge. I respect your religion, I respect the works of John Calvin, but I'm not going to change any minds.

Calvin loved St. Augustine...Which is awesome. St. Augustine is one of my favorite human beings ever.

Just got home from the game. Stayed first pitch to last. Tonight, I consider that an accomplishment. I don't think I have ever been to a game where 40 hits have been pounded out. Hendrickson looked awful but so did everyone else. Some nights are just that way. I was suprised to see Betemit at SS. Also I'm not sure I would have let Stults hit in the 4th with bases loaded. Finally I was really hoping to see Nomar or Gonzo pitch the 9th.

462 America's war for independence is unique in that, despite our disdain for the mother country, we never sought out a complete demolition of the social order. We just didn't want to pay for England's foray into European affairs. From Jamestown to the French and Indian War/Seven Years War, we just wanted to be left alone. We had no problem being English subjects from 1607 to 1754. We only cared when they decided to exploit us.

We only had a problem with England when they exerted control.

GB, you picked the right game to not make.

466 Are you going to be at DT day on Saturday?

I hope so. All the DTers need to realize you are more than a thread killer.

463 -- Augustine was the greatest philosopher ever. It is just too bad that he believed some things that are pretty embarrassing now. I guess you can't take the man out of the times in which he lived.

plaschke has a nomar article up.

I am going to see the Phillies again later this week. I can only hope they are hitting like this on Thursday.

A group of friends have an annual trip to SD where we leave LA at 6am, get to SD for 8:30 tee time. Finish by 1:00. Jump in car to get to Del Mar by first post, 2:00 pm. Last Race at Del Mar is about 6:30. Jump back in car, head to Petco for 7:00 game. Drive home tired. (Golf may be in doubt this year).

468 Outside of original sin, which is the silliest thing ever, the man was an absolute genius.

I'm an agnostic, and St. Augustine is still the most relevant thinker of late antiquity.

467. I am planning on being there but I am only going to speak when everyone else is done talking and has moved on to another subject.

472 See, that's the problem with DT Day, and why, frankly, I'm considering not showing up.

It's going to be all 6'5" dreamboats like LAT. I don't need to show up and be the 5'10" overweight goofball among such manly men. If LAT is going to be there, I'm backing out.

The man is Tiger Beat material.

473. I'm Ecksteinesque in stature if that makes you feel any better about the upcoming DT playdate.

472. I thought you weren't planning on showing up until two outs in the top of the ninth.

473 I'm going to personally drag you into the Stadium, who else will I take my Dodger Dog money from. And I have never been confused with Tiger Beat material in my life.

Tiger Beat, man, and I thought I was old. (Well I am older than GB but the man probably should have been born two decades before he set forth in the South Bay)

463 I was a practicing Calvin & Hobbeist.

Scene - Calvin writing an announcement that Hobbes is missing or lost.

1. Calvin writes "Lost: My Tiger 'Hobbes'"
2. Mom says "Maybe you should describe him."
3. Calvin writes "On the quiet side. Somewhat peculiar. A good companion, in a weird sort of way."
4. Mom says "I mean what does he look like." Calvin says "Oh."

473 The man is Tiger Beat material
He looks like these guys?
http://tinyurl.com/37hqt8

FWIW: I'm a 46-yard old, dweeby engineer, barely 5'7" and not gracing magazine covers anytime soon.

When I took "Philosophy of Religion" back in my UCLA days, they had us read St. Anselm instead of St. Augustine, perhaps just to be different. I think we, the students of a lower division course, would have been better served to have been exposed to the benchmark first. And I wish I had studied much more philosophy in college; what little I did study I have nearly completely forgotten. Perhaps I can visit the great thinkers as an older man.

Wow. I don't think I've ever seen so many little Retro Gameday dots at or beyond the outfield walls as I see for the Phillies last night.

I reject the enlightenment, too, but for very different reasons than Canuck.

I grew up a Communist and my intellectual childhood was influenced most by Communists, who taught me that the enlightenment was essentially when people began to be people. But when I stopped believe democracy worked, I couldn't be a Communist anymore.

This sort of reexamination lead me back before the enlightenment, to the ancient world. Every paper I have ever written in grad school, and probably all of my future scholarship will be devoted to the idea that the ancients were smarter than we are. That is, the possessed a combination of natural capacities for perception equal to our own, and a willingness to analyze the world in a way that could look beyond the preeminence of "human reason" and the single consciousness of God.

I always enjoy reading St. Augustine, his Latin is surprisingly entertaining, even better than my favorite Latin writer from Late Antiquity, Symmachus. But Augustine was a very unhappy man. He left Manicheism because they couldn't answer his questions, because he was too smart, and found his way eventually to Christianity (moving west in intellectual examination of religion). As he got older, he realized that Christianity had the same problems, but he was too lazy to take the next step he wanted to take (Neo-Platonism), so he decided just to answer the questions himself.

Original Sin was necessary, Brock. How else can one explain Baptism? It had become a sacrament by his time, but it had no real purpose, since the primary entrants into the Christian community were now babies, and babies couldn't promise that they would be good Christians. You can't get rid of a sacrament, so you have to come up with a new way of explaining it.

Greg Brock is welcome to become a Mormon since we don't believe in Original Sin and delay baptism until you are old enough to understand and make a decision on your own. He can also pay for me to fly out to LA for DT day if he needs a 5'10" companion.

In high school, we studied Augustine, but also Kierkegaard, Kant, Hume, and many many more that I can't remember. In fact, I likely can't remember a single thing about my philosophy classes, as all the engineering computer science since then has pushed that stuff aside. This is how I can consider myself vastly undereducated, despite 11 years of college. I do know that Augustine rocks.

464. "Hendrickson looked awful but so did everyone else."

But that does not minimize the fact that Hendrickson looked awful. This guy has no business being a Dodgers starter. In the papers he said it was just one of those nights. Unfortunately, he's had lots of "one of those nights."

480. So you believe in a world organized along Platonic principals?

483 No. I am no fan of Plato, Aristotle, or the Neo-Platonists. I think philosophy is an outstanding intellectual exercise, and Plato was probably the best at it who ever lived, but it gets in the way of living.

New post up top.

I stop paying attention to a blowout and a miss a discussion of empire and philosophy. I guess it serves me right.

No love for Thomas More? But I suppose my bias is evidenced by my handle here. Anyway of the conservative philosophers he is my favorite. Though I enjoy Burke too, but more for his discussion of aesthetics.

In the end rejecting the Enlightenment on the grounds of the preeminence that it gives reason (whether because it leads to a marginalization of god or the unnecessary inhibitions of philosophical inquiry) seems problematic to me. You can't reject "human reason" because we have no insight into any other types of reason. Left as such any conclusions we reach are either reasoned or faithfully accepted. Neither is inherently wrong, but the latter can never lead to a progressive mode of scientific inquiry (i.e. can you reject the centrality of reason on a blog the very existence of which is engineered around scientifically deduced principles?). As I see it we live in a world of reason that allows you the luxury of rejecting it. From this point of view the Enlightenment didn't so much reject the centrality of god as relegate god to his appropriate realm (the metaphysical) in order to simplify the understanding of the physical. If this move isn't made then you constantly have to contend with the slippery slope that leads to al-Ghazali. We all know how that turned out for the Islamic world.

Again I don't mean this to be combative, merely inquisitive.

Wow, I missed Mongol Thoughts.

"Lay down your weapons and we'll spare your town."

"Oh, and give us your women too."

486, Yeah me too, I was chuckling about Hendrickson and ERA+ at 3-0 and the next thing I know I wake up and it's 11-1 and I turn it off and go to bed.

I don't have much time lately for philosophy, which just means I'm too busy. When this 6 mo old turns 5, maybe I can return to this thread. :-)