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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
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7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
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12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Hea Culpa
2007-08-02 08:15
by Jon Weisman

What they may not eventually have this season is a spot in the playoffs, but -- and I can't believe I'm writing this -- maybe that can wait.

Maybe they have to sacrifice a September for James Loney, Matt Kemp and Andre Ethier to learn how to play in the heat.

Maybe they have to lose a division for Jonathon Broxton to learn how to pitch under the glare.

Maybe Dodgers fans, just this once, will agree to pay for two months of soaring, skidding fun with an October of silence. ...

In the past in this space, Dodgers general managers have been scolded for not making deadline moves while their division rivals loaded up.

But not since that 1997 team contained five rookies of the year have the Dodgers had such a foundation.

Not since the days of Piazza and Karros have the fans felt such a connection to so many kids.

And, who knows, in such a flawed division, they could still figure out a way to survive.

Their pitching is thin. Their kids are inconsistent. Their old guys are one hamstring from irrelevance.

But isn't this uncertainty a small price to pay for a chance at several years of solidity? And, with no postseason series wins in 20 years, isn't it about time the Dodgers paid it?

- Bill Plaschke in the Times

Yep, it's true. A year after hammering Dodger fans who wanted to preserve the future for not knowing what they were talking about, Plashcke has come around to a point of view myself and others have had for years now. And I appreciate that.

The one thing I felt was missing from this article is an acknowledgment that if he followed his own advice in the past, the Dodgers wouldn't have this foundation that he now has come to praise. But let's not throw the babies out with the bathwater.

The funny thing is, a few veterans like Jeff Kent and Nomar Garciaparra have been playing their best ball of the season, while some of the kids are struggling. Matt Kemp and James Loney are in their first slumps of the season. Russell Martin looks weary, even if he says he's not. Jonathan Broxton gave up what could have been a costly run Wednesday. Chad Billingsley mixes excellence with mediocrity.

But the beauty part is, these names becoming established enough for everyone - not just prospect diehards - to tolerate the slumps that in baseball are inevitable. More and more people are taking a big-picture approach to the kids. More and more are accepting them. More and more know who the kids are, and are invested in them. People believe in them.

No one who roots for the Dodgers doesn't wish they hadn't gotten better at the trading deadline. And still, there are people who are impatient. The National League is there for the taking, and the Dodgers might not take it because as many kids as are currently playing, the Dodgers have hung on to more. And not all of that fruit will ripen.

Some are saying that for all the talk of the kids, the Dodgers are no closer to winning a World Series than they were in 2004, or 2002, or most years since 1988.

I disagree. I disagree because the Dodgers are contending in large part on the strength of players that will only get better in the next few seasons.

The team is in second place right now, and that might not look like progress to some. But there has been progress, and staying on this course, there's every reason the progress will continue.

If it doesn't take a brain surgeon at this point to know that the Dodgers shouldn't have given away the farm to acquire yet another Jeromy Burnitz or James Baldwin - if the standard of difficulty for being Dodger general manager has decreased thanks to the riches of the farm system - well, I'm glad. It's easy to see that there were very few possible good moves for the Dodgers to make in trade on Tuesday, and thankfully, the Dodgers chose among the lesser of the evils.

* * *

Folks keep bringing this up, so I have to add this P.S.: With regards to Plaschke's piece earlier this week asserting that Barry Bonds' 1997 pirouette after a first-inning home run is the source of why Dodger fans boo him and why the Dodgers haven't won in the playoffs, I'm still waiting to hear from a single fan who agrees with this premise. I'm still not convinced people remembered the pirouette before Plaschke mentioned it.

Eddie Murray's hitting into the double play, followed by Brian Johnson's home run, is what people recall from the '97 series in San Francisco, if anything. Those were the devastating events. And do you really think that without the pirouette, Dodger fans who boo Bonds today wouldn't be doing so?

It's a little disturbing to me - it feels like a new history being invented.

* * *

Update: In his first at-bat as a Yankee, ex-Dodger Wilson Betemit hit a three-run home run today.

Comments (431)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-08-02 08:40:17
1.   Michael Green
I agree completely with you and with the sentiments that Plaschke expressed today. Now, why does Plaschke feel this way? The only reason I can figure is that Lasorda feels that way, and I've had the pleasure of getting a couple of letters published in The Times sports section pointing out that he is Lasorda's PR department.

More seriously, anybody remember Roger Kahn's line, that Buzzie Bavasi was vice-president in charge of Dick Young? Ned must have figured out how to cultivate Plaschke enough to keep him off of his back.

2007-08-02 08:41:28
2.   D4P
In the past in this space, Dodgers general managers have been scolded for not making deadline moves while their division rivals loaded up.

A pretty weak and indirect admission. Kind of a passive-aggressive approach that doesn't come out and say I, Bill, scolded the GMs, but is written such that if someone accuses him of never taking responsibility for the scolding, he can point to it and say that he did.


2007-08-02 08:45:42
3.   Jon Weisman
2 - I've expressed my incomplete satisfaction with the story, but the "in this space" part really does cover what you're saying. No one else writes in Plaschke's space but Plaschke. I completely take from it that he admits to scolding the GMs.
2007-08-02 08:51:52
4.   ToyCannon
Good Luck to JD and his family.
2007-08-02 08:52:21
5.   JoeyP
The team is in second place right now, and that might not look like progress to some.

Comparing the payroll of the Dodgers to the rest of their division counterparts, its hard to argue any progress has been made.

Based on payroll alone, this is a team that should win the division every year, and be dominant in doing so. However, whether its a mis-management of funds or lack of internal player development, something is amiss.

2007-08-02 08:54:16
6.   D4P
I completely take from it that he admits to scolding the GMs

Yes, but in a weak and less-than-direct way.

I don't think it's completely random and coincidental that he went through the trouble to say "In this space...GMs have been scolded" rather than simply "I have scolded GMs" or even "In this space, I have scolded GMs."

"GMs have been scolded" isn't nearly as natural or direct as "I have scolded", and I have little doubt that the use of the former was intentional and not just the result of chance. It's a way of admitting guilt that makes your own feelings feel a little less guilty.

2007-08-02 08:55:05
7.   D4P
The photo in that article doesn't look much like JD.
2007-08-02 08:55:50
8.   bhsportsguy
1 And if Ned did figure that out, good for him.

During yesterday's radio interview that T.J. Simers had with Frank McCourt, McCourt again was saying how everyone in their baseball operations organization is on the same page in regards to the makeup of the team, Simers chimed in, "Yeah, its pretty boring."

2007-08-02 08:56:30
9.   Marty
It looks like JD's brother in a Red Sox uniform. But that's impossible.
2007-08-02 08:58:19
10.   TellMeTheScoreRickMonday
JW, yet another great piece.

I have been torn of late because my utter despise of Plaschke has been tempered by both this piece and the Barry Bonds pirouette piece, both of which I thought were (uncommonly) decent. What to do, what to do.

2007-08-02 09:00:33
11.   bhsportsguy
5 And the Knicks have won exactly how many NBA titles since 1973? Or the Mavericks?

Heck even the Yankees, who have made the playoffs for the last 11-12 years but are titleless since 2000.

Having a big payroll just doesn't equate with success.

2007-08-02 09:01:52
12.   Jon Weisman
6 - You're right, but in the big picture of the column, it's just not that significant.

10 - Thanks, though I thought his pirouette piece was just awful. I'm still waiting to hear from a fan who considers the pirouette as a) the reason Bonds is booed or b) the reason the Dodgers haven't won in the playoffs.

2007-08-02 09:08:07
13.   Marty
Is anyone laying into Stoneman for making no moves?
2007-08-02 09:11:32
14.   FirstMohican
11 - Comment 5 isn't saying that big payrolls ensure success.

I think it's pretty clear that signings like Pierre and Nomar have been funds unwisely utilized. I don't really have too much heartburn over Wolf or LuGo, and am not really sure what to say about Schmidt.

Either way, it should be pretty clear that without the farm system the Dodgers have right now, they'd probably be duking it out with San Fran for 2nd to last place.

2007-08-02 09:13:00
15.   D4P
Based on payroll alone, this is a team that should win the division every year

If payroll were a perfect predictor of team success, then this is true. On a lark, I just conducted a regression analysis using Winning Percentage as the dependent variable and Team Payroll as the independent variable. It turns out that Team Payroll only explains roughly 28% of the variation in Winning Percentage, which isn't really that much given how important we might expect Payroll to be.

I also then used the results of the regression to construct the equation that best predicts Winning Percentage using only Payroll, and it looks like this:

Winning Percentage = 0.426 + 0.001(Team Payroll measured in Millions). Using this equation, we can look at how teams are performing relative to their predicted performance. Not surprisingly enough, Arizona is performing the 2nd best relative to their predicted and San Diego the 5th best. The Dodgers are 15th.

2007-08-02 09:13:39
16.   Bob Timmermann
Answering a question asked last night, and likely in a rhetorical sense, but Sadaharu Oh's final home run (#868) was hit off of Toshio Kanabe of the Yakult Swallows at Korakuen Stadium on October 12, 1980.
2007-08-02 09:15:24
17.   Bob Timmermann
Stoneman never makes any moves during the regular season that involve trades from other teams. The Angels just figure it out internally.
2007-08-02 09:17:18
18.   Sam DC
Dave Shenein, fine national baseball writer of the Post, is doing an online chat right now. Here's how he starts it; I'm thinking he's a bit weary of the Bonds chase: "Dave Sheinin: Hi everyone, and thanks for stopping by our baseball chat. I'm celebrating my two-week anniversary on the Barry Bonds Home Run Chase today -- woo hoo! -- and I think I'm going to celebrate with lunch at In-N-Out Burger, followed by three more hours of standing near Bonds's locker. Good times, folks. Good times."

2007-08-02 09:17:19
19.   overkill94
I don't have any clue about any Bonds pirouette from 1997. Then again, I was in high school so I was more busy figuring out how to talk to girls. I do distinctly remember the Brian Johnson home run though. Maybe not all the specifics, just that it pretty much ended our season.
2007-08-02 09:17:28
20.   Bob Timmermann
Wilson Betemit starts at shortstop today for the Yankees.
2007-08-02 09:19:40
21.   Blaine
Count me in as one not remembering the pirouette and that would not factor in to my booing Barry.

Those factors are the 70+ homeruns against the Dodgers, the fact that he is a Giant and the fact that he just is not a very likeable guy.

2007-08-02 09:19:52
22.   Bob Timmermann
The pirouette?

Sheesh, guys like Marty are still upset over Stan Williams and Larry Burright in the 1962 playoff.

2007-08-02 09:20:41
23.   Marty
I wasn't arguing whether Stoneman should/should not have made a trade. I was curious if any writers were blasting him.
2007-08-02 09:20:56
24.   Vishal
i would boo bonds, piroutte notwithstanding. in fact, i didn't know about/remember the pirouette until plaschke brought it up.

and what plaschke's current article misses in its haste to apologize for the kids' growing pains is that there is still the possibility that even WITH an occasional slump or miscue, the kids are so talented that they might likely carry us to postseason glory ANYWAY. if the season ended today, we'd be in the playoffs, and we're only a game behind arizona for the division.

2007-08-02 09:22:17
25.   Marty
All my anger is still focused on Lasorda and Niedenfuer.
2007-08-02 09:24:07
26.   Greg Brock
25 Yup. Even though I was just a wee lad, the Niedenfuer/Clark debacle is A-1 bitterness.

Some idiot spinning around can't touch that.

2007-08-02 09:25:06
27.   Bob Timmermann
A lot of people in L.A. didn't see the home run Bonds hit in 1997 off of Park. That game was televised on Fox Sports 2, which a lot of cable systems didn't pick up at the time, most notably Time Warner systems. So big chunks of the San Fernando and San Gabriel Valley listened to the game instead (like me).

The Brian Johnson game the next day was on Channel 5.

2007-08-02 09:26:05
28.   FirstMohican
24 - I think it kinda does...

"And, who knows, in such a flawed division, they could still figure out a way to survive."

By the way, if the NLW is flawed, which division isn't? I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and guess he means that a flawed division doesn't have a flawless, runaway first place team. So, I guess the Dodgers are lucky that they're not in the ALE? Great, great insight.

2007-08-02 09:26:18
29.   ToyCannon
Yes, but it should be an advantage if the payroll was managed correctly. Using lousy GM's as examples of mismanaging payroll is not a valid excuse. When you have the resources to outspend your competition not just in the payroll, but scouting, international signings, and farm system infrastructure you should be able to beat your competition more times then not. When it doesn't happen it is usually a case of mismanagement of resources. The Dodgers have a built in advantage over all the other teams in our division and they have yet to exploit it correctly since the mid 70's. From terrible farm systems to bad free agent signings to terrible trades. With the influx of youth and a large payroll the Dodgers going forward really have no excuse not to be one of the best teams in baseball in the NL.
2007-08-02 09:26:59
30.   Bob Timmermann
25 26
You ask. I deliver.

2007-08-02 09:30:53
31.   Vishal
[28] to me, that phrasing suggests that the dodgers might win despite having young players, rather than because of them.
2007-08-02 09:31:01
32.   blue22
7 - It's not JD, unless he became a switch-hitter and we didn't notice (ear flap's on the wrong side).

It kinds looks like Pedroia.

2007-08-02 09:32:27
33.   Vishal
[12] not to mention that plaschke doesn't know what a paragraph is.
2007-08-02 09:32:45
34.   Bob Timmermann
That photo is of Pedroia.
2007-08-02 09:34:05
35.   ToyCannon
The story is about JD, who cares who is in the photo?
2007-08-02 09:34:36
36.   Greg Brock
But now that ole Bill has given his official stamp on the youth movement, it means that random Dodger fan will probably be more amenable to playing the kids.

Forget that his apology was weak sauce, or that he is a hypocrite, or that he still doesn't understand that young != inconsistent.

Small moves, peeps. Small moves.

2007-08-02 09:35:20
37.   Bob Timmermann
Because a major newspaper shouldn't make a mistake that glaring.
2007-08-02 09:36:50
38.   Greg Brock
I also wonder when Bill found out about Clayton Kershaw.

I'm guessing the Future's Game.

2007-08-02 09:37:48
39.   bigcpa
Lasorda had that Jack Clark moment with Bonds 10-1-93, pitching to him with runners on 2nd/3rd in a 4-4 game after he already had hit a 3-run shot. Dave Martinez was hitting behind him. Bonds final line was 3-2-3-7. Still one of the best Dodger games I've ever been to.
2007-08-02 09:38:18
40.   Bob Timmermann
Watch those apostrophes, Brock. I've got my eye on you.
2007-08-02 09:39:27
41.   Greg Brock
40 But these kids belong to the future!


2007-08-02 09:41:40
42.   blue22
39 - The circumstances weren't as glaring last night, but when Broxton started pitching to Bonds last night, I was freaking out a bit.
2007-08-02 09:42:04
43.   underdog
I always thought "Apostrophe's" would be a good name for a night club, even if it's one Bob would be too irritated to frequent.

Count me as one of the 99% of Dodger fans who barely remembered Bonds' pirouette and could care less about it. I dislike him for many other reasons.

2007-08-02 09:42:17
44.   ToyCannon
I know I don't give the random Dodger fan much credit but if you think they pay attention to Plaschke your giving him much to much credit. It is not like he writes for La Opinion.
2007-08-02 09:44:11
45.   Bob Timmermann
La Opinion? Or as many people who come to the library from out of town say "L.A. Opinion."
2007-08-02 09:46:07
46.   still bevens
Speaking of the kids, I noticed on 6-4-2 that our friend from Newberry Park, Lambo, hit a triple and a homer last night and has a 900+ OPS with a 2:1 k/bb ratio which isnt awful. Is this kid a legit prospect?
2007-08-02 09:46:18
47.   Johnson
To add to the chorus, I too do not remember the pirouette, but do remember the Brian Johnson home run.

It seems trivial to boil down Dodger fan booing of Bonds to two issues. One, Bonds has been a no-doubt Hall-Of-Famer playing for our #1 rival for the past 15 years. That in and of itself would be enough cause. Two, Bonds is strongly suspected of having "cheated" by using steroids as, at the end of his career, he prepares to surpass one of the most storied records in the game. Ruth to Aaron to Bonds.

He's our rival, he's a Hall-Of-Famer, and he may have cheated to become the greatest home run hitter ever. What pirouette?

2007-08-02 09:47:28
48.   ToyCannon
I guess. I just find it interesting that the story was about serious surgery on his child and the only comments here were on who was in the bloody photo as if that was more important then the story.
2007-08-02 09:50:40
49.   ToyCannon
He was a number 5 pick in this draft so that already makes him a prospect. As Nate pointed out yesterday, he's already doing more in the GCL then any of our other current crop of kids including Kemp. I will have to check out Loney though, as I remember him having a memorable rookie league season.
2007-08-02 09:52:32
51.   capdodger
I have no idea which home run Plaschke is talking about. That could be dued to th e fact that my baseball following then was conducted entirely by reading the paper. The canyon I was living in had very poor TV and Radio reception.
Show/Hide Comments 52-100
2007-08-02 09:52:56
52.   ToyCannon
Loney put up this line at the same age of Lambo in his Rookie league debut.
371 .457 .624 1081
2007-08-02 09:53:52
53.   Bob Timmermann
That's why news organizations aren't supposed to make mistakes like that. It draws attention away from the story.

It's no different from a job applicant turning in a resume that appears to be perfect, but it turns out that the applicant spelled the name of the company wrong. So it goes in the round file.

2007-08-02 09:54:59
55.   regfairfield
48 Of course, when you look at how terrible Kemp was in the GCL (.270/.298/.346), you have to wonder how much it matters.

I thought the reason we hated Bonds was simple. We hate the Giants, Bonds is the best player on the Giants. Oh, and he's a jerk. QED.

2007-08-02 09:56:20
57.   Jonny6
Although it would be hard not to cheer and get caught up in the moment over a blockbuster Teixeira-type trade, I am glad that we avoided that road and kept on the course for sustained long-term success.

I guess all of you detractors out there that panned the Proctor-Betemit trade will have to eat your words. That was an unforgettable debut. One of the most dominant one-pitch performances I've ever witnessed.

And speaking of trades that tinker around the edges of the roster, Jon stirred up deep emotions mentioning some long lost "old friends". Wow, James Baldwin, how could I ever forget about him? Another in a long string of crucial mid-season acquisitions. I have no idea where he is these days, but if I had to take a guess I would say he's still walking from the mound toward the dugout.

2007-08-02 09:56:26
58.   dan reines
Oh, and by the way, I too don't remember the pirouette. I do, however, remember booing Bonds at Dodger Stadium as far back as 1993. I'm pretty sure I wasn't alone.
2007-08-02 09:57:28
59.   silverwidow
Betemit is starting at SS (!) for the Yanks today.
2007-08-02 09:57:35
60.   Jon Weisman
48 - I sure hope the boy is okay. I had looked at the Red Sox box score this morning and wondered whether Drew was hurt or being rested. Turns out it was neither. I wonder how long his son has been sick.
2007-08-02 09:57:37
61.   regfairfield
57 Just think if it was a strike!
2007-08-02 09:57:42
62.   TellMeTheScoreRickMonday
12 True, I don't boo Bonds because of the pirouette. I boo him mostly because he's a arrogant boor, followed by because he's a Giant, followed by because he's a cheater. (I should draw the pie chart at some point.) But what I did like about the Plaschke article, even if more in subject matter than in exeuction, is that it reminded me of an incident supporting all my other reasons to boo.

33 Too funny. Plaschke believes a paragraph is comprised of one sentence, usually with the word "I" in it multiple times.

2007-08-02 09:59:17
64.   Jon Weisman
54 - edited

54. dan reines
it feels like a new history being invented.

Feels that way because it is that way. That's kind of Plaschke's M.O., innit? I mean, he's always been -- to put it the most charitable way I can muster -- a very forward-looking fellow. Especially when his mistakes are piled up behind him. The past is column fodder, to be shaped however he needs to shape it to make whatever outRAGEous point he's got going on today.

You can argue, I think, that that's the nature of being a columnist -- your job is to bring in readers and spur conversation and be a little outrageous. It's not to be refined in your thinking and meticulous in your logic -- that stuff may win over the Google Boys of the world, but it ain't for the masses.

What drives me nuts about Plaschke isn't the fact that he's so frequently wrong and so rarely acknowledges it, it's the fact that he's so disingenuously petty and nasty with the people he's arguing with -- people who are frequently right. He clearly never learned how to make an argument without taking shots at the people who disagree. In the real world -- the world in which you actually face the people you took shots at -- that leaves you with egg on your face. Bill's lucky that way.

That's why today's piece -- passively phrased pseudo culpa notwithstanding -- sticks in my craw so uncomfortably. Jon, you're pretty restrained, but I feel like punching the guy. One of these days, a team's gonna come along that's created entirely on a laptop in the GM's basement, and the team's gonna have zero clubhouse "chemistry," and the scouts will all have been fired, and they're going to be built on statistics I've never even heard of, and they're going to sweep the World Series, and Plaschke's gonna lead his column the next day with "See? Told you so."

2007-08-02 10:00:49
65.   dan reines
Sorry, Jon -- my bad. Thanks for re-posting, rather than just spiking it.
2007-08-02 10:01:03
66.   Paul B
12 I'm kind of surprised more people don't remember the pirouette. My memory is hazy on the specifics (I think I was watching it on TV, but I may have just seen highlights) but I do clearly remember the incident, and yes, it crystallized my distaste for Bonds. Even before BALCO, etc., Bonds was the only player, home or visiting, that I would boo, and that obnoxious little spin had a lot to do with it.

As far as the rest of Plaschke's thesis, that with one move Bonds demoralized the Dodgers, fractured the team unity, torpedoed the postseason hopes, and was responsible for the dismantling of both the roster and the front office...uh, seems like a reach, at best.

2007-08-02 10:01:39
67.   Bob Timmermann
People tend to get emotional when you're making light of one of their most personally devastating experiences. ToyCannon is very sensitive to the illnesses of young children because he knew someone in that situation.

I would cut him some considerable slack here.

2007-08-02 10:02:04
68.   Brent is a Dodger Fan
Feh. Plaschke. I turned the television on mute when he was in the booth with Joe Morgan and Chris Berman last night.

Then again, I could have just watched the whole game on mute....

2007-08-02 10:02:26
69.   Jon Weisman
66 - Fair enough. That's two people. Thanks for passing that along.
2007-08-02 10:03:09
70.   Jon Weisman
67 - And me too, so I don't spend my workday deleting comments.
2007-08-02 10:03:51
71.   Bob Timmermann
As I mentioned earlier, the "pirouette" game was only televised on cable in L.A. and that channel did not have a very high carriage rate in the Southern California area at the time.

The Brian Johnson game was much more widely seen even though it was a day game because it was on an OTA station.

2007-08-02 10:04:00
72.   TellMeTheScoreRickMonday
Jon, just wondering: is there any time that you have booed at a Dodger game, and if so, what provoked that from you? You seem much too civilized for this, but inquiring fans want to know.
2007-08-02 10:04:37
73.   D4P
I understand. I should have expressed my concern for JD's child, rather than make it seem like I don't care.
2007-08-02 10:05:34
74.   dan reines
Bob, do you just remember this stuff? Or are you tapping into your vast workplace archives to check TV schedules?
2007-08-02 10:05:44
75.   Penarol1916
46. I still prefer my boy Austin Gallagher. OPS is slightly under .900, but was just on fire in July. Only 14 strike outs and 10 walks and great power potential.
2007-08-02 10:05:45
76.   Jon Weisman
Via SOSG, a good Eric Neel column (no surprise).

2007-08-02 10:06:59
77.   Bob Timmermann
And now from my hazy memory of 1997, I don't believe the Dodgers simulcast Vin Scully in the early innings back then. I think Vin worked the first and last three innings on TV and either Ross Porter or Rick Monday would do the radio and then call the middle six innings.

I think I heard Ross Porter's radio call of the Bonds homer in 1997. The impression I got from listening to the game was not about Bonds admiring the homer, but rather that Bonds absolutely crushed Park's pitch and hit it to Colma.

2007-08-02 10:08:23
78.   delias man
It was not the pirouette, but the coincidence of FOX buying the team that has set them back 10 years. Simply put.
2007-08-02 10:08:52
79.   Jon Weisman
72 - I have booed, but I honestly can't remember the circumstances. Probably was booing an umpire.

Then, there was the time I yelled at Jim Tracy.

I used to yell in frustration at Karros once in a while, but with no hopes that he could hear me.

2007-08-02 10:10:39
80.   Bob Timmermann
I doublechecked the LA Times story to make sure my memory was right. Because I know I listened to the game in 1997 and I was really uspet that I couldn't watch. But Time Warner and Fox were in one of cable TV's numeous standoffs.

For the Brian Johnson game, I had the day off from work (like today). In that game, Mark Guthrie had a reverse Scott Proctor outing.

2007-08-02 10:11:55
81.   still bevens
I boo'd Tomko when he gave up those 6-8 earned runs in the first three innings earlier in the season.
2007-08-02 10:13:09
82.   Jonny6
Did anyone read the Times game article this morning? They said Saito tossed Roberts' broken bat back at him a la the Clemens-Piazza incident. Did that really happen? I saw the broken bat out, saw the typical Saito-Martin post-game smiling celebration clinch, but I missed any bat tossing shenanigans. Can't really picture Saito getting fired up enough to go around throwing bats at people.
2007-08-02 10:13:14
83.   Jon Weisman
Just for fun: From Jacob Luft at

These were the records of both teams after games played on June 19, Barrett's last full day with the Cubs:

Records on June 19
Chicago Cubs: 32-37
San Diego Padres: 41-29

Here is the Cubs' record since the deal and the Padres' mark since Barrett made his debut for them:

Chicago Cubs: 25-12
San Diego Padres: 15-21

2007-08-02 10:14:08
84.   Jon Weisman
82 - I wondered about that too.

80 - I was freelancing then, so I was watching the Johnson game on TV from home, where I worked.

2007-08-02 10:14:23
85.   dan reines
I'm even more impressed than usual. You really ought to rent yourself out as human data storage.
2007-08-02 10:14:45
86.   Bob Timmermann
I don't believe I have ever booed anyone at a baseball game. Then again, I rarely cheer. I will stand up with the crowd if everyone else is standing, so I can see.

I tend to applaud things like good National Anthem singers or people being honored before a game.

I had no idea what to do about the guys getting inducted into the Army before one of the Cardinals games last week. I was mainly scared for them.

I also wondered if they had volunteered or had just bought a "special ticket."

2007-08-02 10:16:18
87.   Paul B
71 Right. But I would have been at my mom's place watching, if anywhere. Adelphia was still king in the Southbay at the time. And I think they did have FSN2 then. So it's not impossible I watched live. At least not until an eyewitness comes forward to blow holes in my story.

But yeah. How did you pull that bit of info up?

2007-08-02 10:16:51
88.   Bob Timmermann
Two weeks ago, I scheduled myself for a day off on a day I was supposed to meet with my boss for a performance review.

So there's a limit to what I can remember.

2007-08-02 10:17:50
89.   Bob Timmermann
You go to an LA Times fulltext database. You put in "Dodgers" for the day in question. Look for the notebook story and the TV information will be listed with it.
2007-08-02 10:18:15
90.   Jon Weisman

From Will Carroll, back on the injury beat:

Buddy Carlyle isn't a name you'd think might affect a pennant race, but the one thing John Schuerholz wasn't able to get this week was a starter. The itinerant righty hyperextended his elbow and left the game. Afterwards, he said this is an injury he gets periodically and it seldom causes him to miss more than a start. I can't find any info on previous injuries, and if it happened in the minors, it's under my radar. We'll have to look for him to throw on the side in the next couple days before his scheduled Tuesday start. The likely fill-in if he's unavailable would be no one--it'd probably force a bullpen game.

Randy Wolf was diagnosed with capsulitis, a term not heard very often, but likely to be a common condition among pitchers. The capsule of the shoulder is what holds everything in place, what doctors call a "static stabilizer." The inflammation causes it to not stabilize quite as well, causing pain and tightness. There are some orthopaedists who theorize that the capsule protects the labrum, an associated stabilizing structure, and that catching things at the capsule stage would protect the labrum from fraying and tearing. Wolf is out at least a month, perhaps the rest of the season depending on how quickly he can rehab without flaring up the shoulder again. In the longer term, he should be able to return without much problem.

2007-08-02 10:22:39
91.   KG16
71 - But they've since played it a few hundred times on ESPN, you must remember in the world according to ESPN this is the reason for the Dodgers-Giants rivalry.

Speaking of the world according to ESPN, it figures that the first time they decide to talk about teams not from New York or Boston, they choose the one from up north.

2007-08-02 10:26:31
92.   TellMeTheScoreRickMonday
91 Yeah, the Mariners are hot now.
2007-08-02 10:30:07
93.   bigcpa
To those who still miss Milton Bradley- the replay of last night's 9th inning HR is a must-see:

For a guy who can't play 100 games a season, Bradley somehow has had more electrifying moments than Albert Pujols.

2007-08-02 10:31:13
94.   Bob Timmermann
ESPN thought it was a big deal when Marvin Benard beat the Dodgers with a walkoff home run on a Sunday night game.
2007-08-02 10:32:46
95.   Bob Timmermann
The Padres-DBacks game is not being televised today.

Pretty weird.

2007-08-02 10:36:22
96.   still bevens
93 I was more of a fan of when he stole the foul ball from that guy in Houston. But then again I always kinda liked the edgier Uncle Miltie. I'll be wearing my Bradley #21 tshirt in the cheap seats tonight if anyone wants to say hello. hehe
2007-08-02 10:37:07
97.   mike20
I'm certainly no fan of Plaschke (or Bonds), but I really remember the pirouette and remember thinking how cocky it was. That being said, his premise that the Dodger world was changed by his pirouette and not by the failure of the team, the change in ownership or a faulty negotiation tactic sounds a little hinky to me.
2007-08-02 10:41:36
98.   KG16
97 - I blame Richard Riordan, if only he would have let O'Malley bid for the NFL team...
2007-08-02 10:45:14
99.   Marty
I honestly don't remember anything about that series, or the 97 season in general. In fact, I've kind of blocked the Dodgers out for most of the late 90s.
2007-08-02 10:51:02
100.   Robert Daeley
I have booed, often and lustily. It is part of the game that I enjoy. Same thing with cheering.

Heckling is an artform that I'm not practiced at yet, apart from an occasional "C'mon, Blue!" or "What game are you watching? You're missing a good one!"

I probably booed something or other at the Randy Wolf rehab game at Single A Inland Empire. :) Cheered too.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-08-02 10:54:14
101.   Jon Weisman
White Sox roll an 8 on the Yankees in the second inning.
2007-08-02 10:55:13
102.   Bob Timmermann
The HD game on Extra Innings is, as is its wont, a dud. The White Sox lead the Yankees 8-0 in the 2nd.

Joe Torre already used Mike Meyers as one batter guy in the second inning.

2007-08-02 10:55:28
103.   Jon Weisman
Clemens' line:

1 2/3 IP, nine hits, eight runs, three earned, no walks, no strikeouts. Error was on Cano. Yankees used three pitchers in the second inning.

2007-08-02 10:55:58
104.   Jon Weisman
102 - We almost supplemented each other perfectly.
2007-08-02 10:56:57
105.   Kevin Lewis
I will be in the Reserve section tonight. Who else will be at the game?
2007-08-02 10:56:58
106.   Bob Timmermann
Clemens has actually had two starts slightly worse. He had two games in which he gave up 8 runs in 1 1/3 IP.

He had a game score of 2 in this one:

2007-08-02 10:58:58
107.   Bob Timmermann
I believe Clemens had a game score of 10.
2007-08-02 11:00:37
108.   Jon Weisman
Betemit up, first and third, a run in, none out for the Yankees in the bottom of the second.
2007-08-02 11:00:59
109.   Greg Brock
99 Same here. Living 3000 miles away and having the team trade it's best ever hitter kind of made me not care for awhile. No access to games and pre-streaming media and all.
2007-08-02 11:01:35
110.   Bob Timmermann
Boom boom!
2007-08-02 11:01:57
111.   bigcpa
2007-08-02 11:02:09
112.   D4P
Was that Betemit's first PA as a Yankee...?
2007-08-02 11:02:29
113.   Jon Weisman
2007-08-02 11:02:41
114.   bigcpa
Kill Ned! Kill Ned!
2007-08-02 11:02:46
115.   bhsportsguy
A few years ago I attended a Q&A between Bill Plaschke and Frank Deford at the UCLA Book Fair. Deford was there to talk about his book about John McGraw and Christy Mathewson, I thought I asked a very insightful question about the "Merkle Game" which Deford was very pleased to inform the audience about.

When Plaschke wasn't fawning over Frank Deford, he criticized every aspect of modern baseball from "Moneyball" computer geeks running ball clubs (yes DePo was the GM), who almost traded away a division title, to frauds like Barry Bonds.

I met Frank Deford after the discussion and wanted to buy a signed book but alas, his PR person said that they did not bring many copies, apparently forgetting one of the main reasons why you go to the festival.

2007-08-02 11:03:01
116.   Bob Timmermann
Indeed it was.
2007-08-02 11:03:04
117.   RIYank
Greetings from a Bronx Banter denizen,
and thanks for the power hitter!
Yeah, it was his first plate appearance for us.
2007-08-02 11:03:44
118.   bhsportsguy
114 And if he struck out, good trade?

Release the anger, it will make your day go a lot better.

2007-08-02 11:03:57
119.   D4P
I hope ToyCannon comes back soon so we can rekindle our bond over Betemit.
2007-08-02 11:04:54
120.   D4P
Dodger fans will throw Proctor's scoreless one-third inning back in the Yankees's face.
2007-08-02 11:05:23
121.   bhsportsguy
BTW, if I recall correctly and I was there for the game, I think Wilson's first plate appearance for the Dodgers resulted in a double.
2007-08-02 11:05:27
122.   RIYank
120 Can't we all just be happy campers?
2007-08-02 11:06:45
123.   Jon Weisman
118 - I think 114 was in fun.
2007-08-02 11:07:01
124.   Wilbert Robinson
117 Yes, but does he light stuff on fire?
2007-08-02 11:07:35
125.   regfairfield
Is Jeter going to get Wally Pipped?
2007-08-02 11:07:55
126.   bigcpa
118 Yes that was in jest, but I still wish we had Betemit to kick around.
2007-08-02 11:08:29
127.   regfairfield
In all seriousness, if Betemit is going to have a nice career for the Yanks, these next 20 PA will be huge.
2007-08-02 11:09:15
128.   Jon Weisman
Betemit and Marlon were examples of great honeymoons not leading to great marriages.
2007-08-02 11:09:17
129.   Bob Timmermann
Betemit's first PA for the Dodgers was a double off of Ramon Ortiz.
2007-08-02 11:10:22
130.   Bob Timmermann
I was turned by a phone company when asking to set up service in my home.

That seems so humiliating.

2007-08-02 11:10:42
131.   caseybarker
I booed Mike Trombley a few years ago (9/19/2001--retrosheet is awesome) when he gave up the winning runs to the Padres in the tenth. James Baldwin started that game.

I don't remember booing another player.

2007-08-02 11:11:55
132.   BlueCrew Bruin
93 It's really too bad that things didn't work out for Bradley in LA. For whatever reason, I've always had a soft spot for the guy.
2007-08-02 11:12:07
133.   Daniel Zappala
Spies can be turned. Are you a spy, Bob?
2007-08-02 11:13:36
134.   Jon Weisman
A-Rod is the tying run.
2007-08-02 11:13:49
135.   caseybarker
Oh yeah, I was also pretty disgusted that Dodger Stadium gave Gwynn a standing ovation during his pinch hit at-bat in the tenth. I did not boo him, though.
2007-08-02 11:13:55
136.   nick
Boom!....128 true enough; but with Torre, if there isn't a great honeymoon, he heads to Reno pronto--127 understands Torre psychology....
2007-08-02 11:14:13
137.   Bob Timmermann
"Turned down"... oops

My humiliation overcame my grasp of syntax.

2007-08-02 11:14:27
138.   Greg Brock
Good for Wilson.


2007-08-02 11:14:30
139.   still bevens
132 I blame myself. Once I bought my Bradley tshirt he had his racism spat with Jeff Kent two weeks later. I've been to afraid to buy a jersey for any other player I like for fear of a replay of those circumstances.
2007-08-02 11:16:12
140.   Bob Timmermann
Buy a Saito jersey. That's likely not to offend.
2007-08-02 11:16:33
141.   Jon Weisman
Just an RBI single - hope the fans aren't too hard on him.
2007-08-02 11:17:59
142.   Wilbert Robinson
141 Ha yeah did anyone see the Daily News headline yesteday Yankees: 8, A-Rod: 0.
2007-08-02 11:18:18
143.   KG16
141 - after 20 ABs without a hit, I'd hope so too.
2007-08-02 11:18:36
144.   regfairfield
139 This is why I have a blank Dodger jersey.
2007-08-02 11:18:50
145.   BlueCrew Bruin
139 Heh. Prepare for a spike of interest from the gang here in your jersey buying choices. In fact, you may have just earned yourself a free Pierre jersey. :)
2007-08-02 11:18:56
146.   D4P
Betemit will take Jeter's job.

You heard it here first.

2007-08-02 11:19:17
147.   KG16
ok, according to Gameday, Betimet hit the ball to Canada, how accurate is that?
2007-08-02 11:21:11
148.   Kevin Lewis
Oh, I was hoping we could categorize the homer as a rally killer. I guess not.
2007-08-02 11:22:33
149.   KG16
Tie game in the Bronx, apparently, it's being played on an X-Box
2007-08-02 11:22:39
150.   Sam DC
Droll in here today. Good stuff.

That chat I linked in 18 is a good read. Pie n Burger makes an appearance. Mostly lots of discussion of cult hero baseball players.

Dodger Stadium gets a dig.

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-08-02 11:23:00
151.   Daniel Zappala
Question: If I wore my Hideo Nomo jacket to a game, would that be considered cool, retro, out of style, or just plain odd?
2007-08-02 11:23:17
152.   Wilbert Robinson
Tied up wowzers
2007-08-02 11:24:15
153.   JeremyOberstein
A paragraph from Plaschke: "And, who knows, in such a flawed division, they could still figure out a way to survive."

A paragraph from JW: "The one thing I felt was missing from this article is an acknowledgment that if he followed his own advice in the past, the Dodgers wouldn't have this foundation that he now has come to praise. But let's not throw the babies out with the bathwater."

Jon, how is it that we are constantly inundated with Plaschke's bad writing consisting of one word paragraphs, incomplete sentences, and poor logic when a writer of your caliber is blogging away with prose day in and day out? How is it the LA Times has not snatched you up already? Though I know a newspaper can be constraining and DT gives you a forum to fully express your thoughts, I think you, and you alone can be the next Jim Murray and save us from Plashcke. It's for the greater good!

2007-08-02 11:24:54
154.   KG16
151 - depends on where you sit.
2007-08-02 11:25:24
155.   natepurcell
i wonder how Betemit looks defensively at shortstop.
2007-08-02 11:26:47
156.   RIYank
155 He hasn't had a play yet.
2007-08-02 11:27:36
157.   still bevens
146 I would say Jeter and Nomar are pretty comparable in their 'no way in heck will Betemit ever take their jobs regardless of performance' pedigrees.
2007-08-02 11:28:05
158.   Wilbert Robinson
2007-08-02 11:28:34
159.   JoeyP
So the White Sox get 8 in the top of the 2nd.

Yankees get 8 in the bottom half.

Doubt that has happened very often.

2007-08-02 11:30:07
160.   D4P
Doubt that has happened very often

The Yankee radio announcers are asking their stat people to look it up. I bet Bob could beat them...

2007-08-02 11:30:12
161.   natepurcell

i think he looks like a chipmunk.

2007-08-02 11:30:51
162.   Terry A
Prior to Plaschke's alleged conversion, he would've jumped at the chance to roast a GM who traded (arguably) his best power hitter to the Yankees (!) for a middle reliever, especially if that power hitter homered in his first at-bat with New York.

And this, friends, is why the Plaschke Embargo continues in the tubes of my internets.

2007-08-02 11:30:54
163.   Johnson
Lo Duca also hit a HR in his first PA after we traded him at the deadline, no?

Do you suppose players actually try harder to knock one out after they're traded to make an impression on their current/former teams?

2007-08-02 11:31:03
164.   goofus
85 Robert Mnemonic
2007-08-02 11:31:32
165.   Bluebleeder87

He busted a Paul Lo Duca hopefully things will go well with him in NY with the DH over there i'm sure he'll see more playing time.

2007-08-02 11:32:19
166.   Jon Weisman
151 - I wore a Mondesi shirt to DT Day.
2007-08-02 11:33:13
167.   Jon Weisman
Betemit called out on strikes in his second at-bat - squaring things away.
2007-08-02 11:33:40
168.   Bluebleeder87
i think he looks like a chipmunk.

I've always felt he does also but somebody mentioned yesterday that he looks like a turkey??? maybe it was lunch time & he craved a turkey sandwich.

2007-08-02 11:33:59
169.   Terry A
167 - Well, now we know it was a good trade after all.
2007-08-02 11:34:06
170.   Jon Weisman
153 - There appears to be very little market for my baseball writing services, excepted.
2007-08-02 11:34:49
171.   D4P
Betemit has homered and struck out, which (along with walks) comprise what I like to refer to as "The Trio of Veritable Results"
2007-08-02 11:34:51
172.   caseybarker
Pardon the off-topic post, but I've recently made a temporary move to DC, and I would be remiss if I did not solicit some advice from Sam DC on where to sit at National's games, where to dine pregame, etc...

I have also gone through Dodger withdrawals. I couldn't even stay awake during last night's game, and I missed the bottom of the eighth.

2007-08-02 11:35:37
173.   Humma Kavula
I booed Rich Donnelly during the introductions at Game 3 of the 2006 NLDS.

If I had to do it over again, I would boo him again.

2007-08-02 11:35:39
174.   natepurcell
Scott Procter better become Scot Shields for us or else this will trade will always make me upset.
2007-08-02 11:47:17
175.   Sam DC
Hey Casey.

Sitting at RFK -- well, it depends what you like and want to spend of course. But a few general things. For day games, third base side gets shaded a good deal earlier than first base. They police squatters in the lower bowl, but not the upper bowl, so folks commonly by real cheap seats upstairs and then move around during the game, of you're emotionally comfortable with that. The Upper Deck at RFK is very step and pulled quite far forward so, you actually get a real good view. The seats they call "Terrace" are a good value -- $20 per, and they run from first to third, but you are under the overhang and can't see the scoreboard from any but the first few rows of those sections. Finally, there are lots of, er, "resellers" near the metro. I tend not to do that for what are ultimately silly reasons, but most of friends get seats that way -- they have lots of good seats and often sell at face value.

2007-08-02 11:48:36
176.   bhsportsguy
157 Despite what A Martinez said, if Wilson thought playing behind Nomar, Furcal and Kent was tough, he can only expect to play on the rare rare days that Torre gives Jeter and A-Rod a day-off.

Those 20 at bats that were mentioned above might take all of August for Betemit to collect.

2007-08-02 11:49:33
177.   bhsportsguy
174 He won't so you might as well stay upset.
2007-08-02 11:50:12
178.   D4P
I thought the Yanks were planning to play Betemit at 1B...Only Grittle or Tracy would play him behind Phillips.
2007-08-02 11:54:02
179.   Sam DC
Some eating options.

1. Take the metro to Potomac (lost stop before station) and walk 20 feet to Trusty's on Penn ave. Kind of divey, real good burgers, not much else, can walk to RFK in 10 mins from there or they run a shuttle on weekends.

2. Exit metro at Eastern Market, go south (right) on 8th street (which you are facing when you exit the metro, there are a bunch of bars restaurants in the next three blocks. Really good Italian on the left for sit down, Indian, etc. South of G (two blocks) are two fun places -- Irish bar, Finn MacCools, they do a happy hour, and a place called Ugly Mug, younger crowd, they do a shuttle to the game sometimes. If no shuttle, you're back on the metro to the game.

3. On Pennsylvania Ave SE (near Cap South metro stop) between 2nd and 4th are a group of hill bars. Capitol Lounge has good food and a real bar scene. Say, for example, you wanted to ogle interns. That's your spot! They run a lot of specials. Tune Inn at 4th and Penn is where I typically go. It's a real dive, the food ain't great, people aren't so hottt, but they're nice. But I once drank Jamesons (Jameson's?) there with Jon Tester. Warning, it's a bit of Red Sox bar, but they'll generally put the Dodger game on one of the TVs if you ask.

2007-08-02 11:55:21
180.   caseybarker
Thanks, Sam. I think I will try to go to some games mid-month. I assume you can get tickets at the gate.

What do you think of the new stadium? I work at the Navy Yard (so I've seen the construction activities), and while I haven't been to RFK, the surroundings at the new stadium don't look to be that great.

2007-08-02 11:55:38
181.   trainwreck
I just had a feeling Betemit would homer in first at bat, or at least first game. It is such a Betemit thing to do.


2007-08-02 11:57:28
182.   KG16
There's been a lot of talk lately that Glavine may be the last man to record 300 wins. I have a theory that someone will do it again, but that it will be a middle reliever. Any thoughts?
2007-08-02 11:59:00
183.   Bob Timmermann
There's a middle reliever who is going to 15 games a year for 20 years?
2007-08-02 11:59:52
184.   Sam DC
180: easy to get tix at the gate.

Whole Navy Yard area is being rebuilt, with a major ballpark entertainment zone. Won't be done by Opening Day 2008, but will fill in over the next two years.

2007-08-02 12:01:00
185.   D4P
The humiliation continues.
2007-08-02 12:01:03
186.   KG16
Just a hunch, really. What's the most wins by a reliever in a season?
2007-08-02 12:01:10
187.   MMSMikey
Charlie (Pasadena): Klaw, do the following transactions make too much sense for the Dodgers: Promote LaRoche, Meloan, Abreu (when healthy)...DFA Ramon Martinez, Olmedo Saenz, Roberto Hernandez.

Keith Law: Way too much sense, so it won't happen. Colletti is sending scouts to over-40 men's leagues to find a 3b he can play over LaRoche.

2007-08-02 12:01:20
188.   Humma Kavula
183 I think a lot of middle relievers are going to 15 games a year. Whether they'll have 20-year careers is more uncertain.
2007-08-02 12:01:29
189.   trainwreck
I don't think that will happen, because a pitcher has to be pretty darn good (and lucky) to be a middle reliever and get that many wins and if he was that good he would not be a middle reliever.
2007-08-02 12:03:02
190.   caseybarker
184 Pretty Nice!

I've already been to Finn MacCool's. Good burger.

2007-08-02 12:03:19
191.   Bob Timmermann
Elroy Face won 18 games in relief for the Pirates in 1959. He went 18-1. The Dodgers were the only team to beat him.

Two AL pitchers won 17 games in relief.

2007-08-02 12:04:16
192.   Wilbert Robinson
Mirabelli just got thrown out tagging from 3rd on a warning track shot. I guess we can expect grammatical errors from him soon.
2007-08-02 12:04:25
193.   Terry A
187 - Ha! Is Eric Enders ghostwriting Keith Law's chats these days?
2007-08-02 12:05:02
194.   underdog
187 Painful. Funny. Painfully funny.

So what the heck is going on in NY this week? And with the White Sox pitching? Do they have the anti-humidor working? I'm just glad the Dodgers didn't trade for one of the WSox pitchers supposedly on the market.

2007-08-02 12:05:29
195.   KG16
Like I said, a hunch really, if you figure most starters aren't going to go more than 5 or 6 innings, that's a lot of opportunities for relievers to pick up wins. And I could see a journeyman-type reliever stick around long enough to pull it off. I'm likely wrong on this one though.
2007-08-02 12:08:52
196.   underdog
191 So that year Face was really saving, eh?
2007-08-02 12:09:02
197.   bhsportsguy
187 And yet Keith Law predicted in the same chat that the Dodgers will win the West.
2007-08-02 12:10:11
198.   Sam DC
Lohse left his first start for the Phillies after one inning.
2007-08-02 12:10:26
199.   Bob Timmermann
The last pitcher to win at least 15 games in relief was Bill Campbell back in 1976. He won 17. Bill Stanley won 15 games in 1978, but he had at least two wins as a starter.

The last reliever to win more than 10 games in a season was Jesse Crain of the Twins in 2005. He won 12.

2007-08-02 12:12:21
200.   D4P
If no more pitchers get 300 wins, does that mean no more non-closers elected to the Hall of Fame...?
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2007-08-02 12:13:12
201.   underdog
"Dodger fans ride Bonds' asterisk all game long"
By Gregg Doyel
CBS National Columnist
2007-08-02 12:15:47
202.   Bob Timmermann
A lot of pitchers without 300 wins will make it to the Hall of Fame. Johan Santana won't get to 300 likely and if he maintains his pace, he'll go to Cooperstown. Pedro Martinez can book reservations for Cooperstown five years after his retirement.
2007-08-02 12:15:49
203.   regfairfield
I can't agree with replacing Abreu with Martinez. Abreu still needs time to develop, and putting him on the bench won't do anything for him. Plus, can he actually play short?

Ramon Martinez is nice because you can stash him on the bench and forget about him.

2007-08-02 12:16:33
204.   underdog
Oh, and I also really liked this story in the NY Times on Joe Beimel (vs. Barry Bonds). Definitely read this one.

(Liked this description of Beimel, too: "With a thatch of unruly brown hair and tattoos on his right shoulder and right wrist, the skinny-as-a-Wiffle-ball-bat Beimel could pass for the singer of an indie rock band.")

2007-08-02 12:18:45
205.   Bob Timmermann
The last Dodger reliever to win 10 or more games in a season was Matt Herges back in 2000. He won 11. He started four games and was 0-3 with an ND in them.
2007-08-02 12:20:14
206.   Bob Timmermann
Prior to Herges, the last Dodger reliever to win 10 games in a season was one Pedro Martinez, back in 1993.
2007-08-02 12:20:50
207.   underdog
203 Plus, to his credit, Martinez has actually been hitting pretty well in this series - though he won't remind anyone of Kent. But he's at least contributed. And can play just about any position. Abreu will be a starter at some point so I agree it's good for him to just keep playing and working on his swing and his patience.
2007-08-02 12:23:07
208.   blue22
203 - So why the rush to call up LaRoche (not necessarily you, but others that have demanded LaRoche to be called up)? Wouldn't he be doing the same thing, now that Nomar has entrenched himself at 3rd for the rest of the year. I'd hate to see Loney and LaRoche split time.
2007-08-02 12:23:30
209.   jasonungar07
Late the party I know, but things must be good (for the cubs) when you win games on wild pitches. I wonder how many games a year are won like that.
2007-08-02 12:23:32
210.   Bob Timmermann
Brian Lawrence is back in the majors with the Mets.

A dark shadow has fallen over the Dodgers chances if they face the Mets in the playoffs.

2007-08-02 12:24:48
211.   D4P
Just Another Veritable Outcome For Betemit
2007-08-02 12:24:50
212.   blue22
210 - Was Brian Lawrence the original "arm angles" guy that Choi was forbidden to face?
2007-08-02 12:25:53
213.   Humma Kavula
210 A dark shadow is already over the Dodgers' chances for the playoffs. Rich Donnelly is still the third base coach.
2007-08-02 12:26:37
214.   regfairfield
208 I meant call up, and play LaRoche. There's no one that Abreu couldn't replace anyone and make the team better so he'd sit on the bench.

I do agree that Nomar's little hot streak kills this fantasy.

2007-08-02 12:27:00
215.   Bob Timmermann
According to this article:

From 1957 to 2006, 131 games ended on a wild pitch.

2007-08-02 12:27:03
216.   Wilbert Robinson
Gagne is going to pitch the 9th today for Boston
2007-08-02 12:27:20
217.   bhsportsguy
Name three things that Wilson statistically had the best chances of doing today?

He did all three, in his first three plate appearances, he did hit a loud foul before walking.

2007-08-02 12:29:08
218.   D4P
he did hit a loud foul before walking

Announcers said it was upper deck in RF, 4 feet or so to the right of the foul pole.

2007-08-02 12:29:33
219.   Penarol1916
208. To me, anyway, the difference is that LaRoche is already a more refined product, especially at the plate. Abreu has a huge weakness that really needs to be worked on day-in day-out in game situations. He has absolutely no patience at the plate and swings at some really terrible pitches. He is just much more raw and will be harmed much more by sitting on the bench.
As to regfairfields question about whether he can play shortstop, the prospect hounds on this blog all say that he can play a very good shortstop, and was only moved over to 2nd because he and Hu were at the same level.
2007-08-02 12:30:08
220.   Bob Timmermann
The 1927 World Series ended on a wild pitch:

2007-08-02 12:30:28
221.   Wilbert Robinson
I can't wait to see Betemit's chipmunk/turkey face on the cover of the Post tomorrow.
2007-08-02 12:36:03
222.   Bob Timmermann
Personally, I don't wish to see an animal that looks both like a turkey and a chipmunk.
2007-08-02 12:37:15
223.   Wilbert Robinson
Speaking of which...
2007-08-02 12:40:26
224.   Robert Daeley
Chipper Jones' line from Sunday's game (via today's Jayson Stark blog):

1 AB, 0 R, 1 H, 5 RBIs, 0 HR, 0 BB

Stark mentions a few other crazy ones from that day, including Jason Jennings, Jeremy Bonderman, and Antonio Alfonseca.

2007-08-02 12:43:45
225.   Bob Timmermann
Hey, I was way ahead of Stark on those games!
2007-08-02 12:44:43
226.   caseybarker
Brian Lawrence is a Dodger killer in much the way I remember Steve Avery of the early nineties being a Dodger killer.
2007-08-02 12:46:36
227.   Wilbert Robinson
gagne is coming in
2007-08-02 12:47:16
228.   Bob Timmermann
Brian Lawrence is 10-5 with a 2.71 ERA lifetime against the Dodgers.
2007-08-02 12:47:44
229.   Bob Timmermann
Actually, Lawrence's ERA against the Dodgers is 2.57!
2007-08-02 12:48:49
230.   Kingmans Performance
now pitching for the Red Sox
No. 83 Eric Gagne
2007-08-02 12:48:58
231.   Robert Daeley
225 You need a better PR firm. ;)

Would Jon mind if you were to add a discreet notice in here when you posted on Griddle? I subscribe to your RSS feed, but others would benefit.

2007-08-02 12:50:08
232.   Sam DC
227 Did they play Welcome to the Fenway?
2007-08-02 12:52:45
233.   Wilbert Robinson
back to back strike outs
2007-08-02 12:54:56
234.   Robert Daeley
232 Since "Welcome to the Jungle" is a putatively LA song by an LA band, what would the Boston equivalent be? Boston's "Hitch a Ride" maybe? Or "More than a Feeling"?

So many players have come and gone
Their faces fade as the years go by
Yet I still recall as I wander on
As clear as the sun in the summer sky

It's more than a feeling, when I hear that old song they used to play (more than a feeling)
I begin dreaming (more than a feeling)
'till I see Gagne walk away
I see my closer walkin' away

2007-08-02 12:55:31
235.   MMSMikey
when has gagne ever thrown a slider?
2007-08-02 12:55:43
236.   caseybarker
Another gem from Law's chat this afternoon:

Paddy (St. Louis, MO): Keith, I'm from San Diego. Rubios before Midnight, Roberto's after. I see the Dodgers looking more to 08 than this year. What off season moves do they make?

Keith Law: Thanks, I saw your note about Old Town, went to one place there (a tequileria of some sort), the food was very sterile, didn't feel authentic. Dodgers' strategy depends a lot on Wolf's status and on whether they're willing to hand any starting jobs to the kids. They have Juan Pierre, so maybe they'll trade for Gathright and sign Luis Castillo so they can get the whole set.

2007-08-02 12:58:36
237.   Xeifrank
Looks like the DBacks and Mariners both called up their top prospects today.
vr, Xei
2007-08-02 13:07:12
238.   Bob Timmermann
Adam Kennedy making his major league debut in right field.

He officially played one game in center in 2002 for the Angels when Scioscia opted for a 5-man infield and Darin Erstad moved from CF to 1B, forcing Scott Spiezio to 2B and making Kennedy the center fielder even though he wasn't playing in center field.

2007-08-02 13:08:48
239.   D4P
I see that Ensberg homered for the Padres.
2007-08-02 13:09:27
240.   JoeyP
After looking at Morgan Ensberg's career numbers, I guess I can understand the Padres taking a shot on him.

Was this guy a roid user?
Ballpark enhanced numbers?
Or did he just start natually declining at the age of 30?

2007-08-02 13:10:23
241.   regfairfield
240 He's had injury issues.
2007-08-02 13:12:22
242.   JoeyP
Bradley's first 19 games with the Padres:


2007-08-02 13:13:44
243.   Dark Horse
236-This stuff from Keith Law seems particularly knee-jerk at this point. There's no actual evidence to speak of that Colletti undervalues young players, or that they won't have places to play when it's time. Yeah, we like to carp about Nomar sucking life out of the line-up--at least, we did until recently--but it appears to me that Loney, Kemp, Billingsley and Ethier all play plenty. We mightn't love those geriatric presences as a matter of principle, but in point of fact they're arguably more help than hindrance. I'm sure LaRoche and Meloan will get their chances soon enough, and while I'm eager to see it, there isn't necessarily as much to be gained from rushing them as we might think.

I don't know that I can say as much for Pierre, but knocking Colletti on this score now is dumb, voguish posing masquerading as knowing "expertise."

2007-08-02 13:16:07
244.   Bob Timmermann
Jeter pinch-hitting for Betemit, but a lefty was in. The White Sox have switched to a righty.
2007-08-02 13:16:32
245.   underdog
I agree, D-Horse. I wonder if Law has been hanging out at the same watering hole as Will Carroll lately?
2007-08-02 13:17:13
246.   caseybarker
Steve Avery against the Dodgers was:

2-0 1.29 in 1990
3-0 0.85 in 1991
2-2 2.43 in 1992
1-0 2.45 in 1993

Then he fell off the face of the earth.

2007-08-02 13:19:54
247.   underdog
So Upton went from Single A to Double A to the Majors in the same year. I wonder if the Dodgers have anyone who will follow that same quickie path?
2007-08-02 13:22:27
248.   Curtis Lowe
247 - If it happens with the Dodgers, I'd put my money on MacDonald.
2007-08-02 13:24:52
249.   hernari

If we're lucky he'll throw a spectacular tirade on the field and get suspended before a critical division series at the end of the season.

2007-08-02 13:27:36
250.   D4P
Hate to say it, but Milton will probably be on the DL so a tirade won't be necessary.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2007-08-02 13:30:48
251.   Bob Timmermann
If Petit cooperates, the Padres could win yet another game this season while getting two or fewer hits.
2007-08-02 13:31:13
252.   blue22
May as well close the loop on KLaw's chat today:

Jeff (LA): Do you know what prospects the Athletics wanted in return for Joe Blanton?

SportsNation Keith Law: I was told that the problem was in the LA front office. One camp wanted to deal the kids, one didn't want to trade any of them.

Commence speculation on the members of each camp.

2007-08-02 13:32:01
253.   JoeyP
247--Beltre was only 19yrs old when he got called up from AA. But he had not played in Single A ball that year.

Beltre's only 28yrs old, and will probably end the year around 1,400 career hits.

Beltre might have the most quiet 2,500 hit career ever.

2007-08-02 13:33:57
254.   streetjustice
I have seen multiple analysts (K. Law, C. Kahrl) comment on dissention within the Dodger front office regarding shielding the young ones from trades versus trading them. It's easy to imagine a Logan White/ Kim Ng showdown versus Ned, but I know this is baseless speculation. However, if there is indeed front office strife, and Ned is currently restrained somewhat by his talent evaluators, what sort of situation are we left with if Logan White departs for his own gig as GM? I fear this is closer to happening then anyone realizes.
2007-08-02 13:35:02
255.   regfairfield
The more I think about it, the more I could see it being Ned/Logan versus the McCourts.
2007-08-02 13:38:08
256.   D4P
I notice that all these "dissension" reporters neglect to indicate which persons are in which factions. Which is true:

1. They don't know which persons are in which factions
2. They know but aren't telling

If 1, how do they know there's dissension if they don't know who the factions are?

If 2, why not tell us who the factions are?

2007-08-02 13:39:43
257.   streetjustice
Iv'e never had the impression McCourt participates in decisions re: the players (except the Sir Milton situation) Perhaps Ned v. coaching staff? How much input is given by grady?
2007-08-02 13:40:38
258.   blue22
255 - The McCourts...that's an interesting angle. Unless Ned is just real convincing while secretly lying through his teeth about his faith in the kids, I have a hard time believing it's him. You know that Ng and White are driving the Keep-the-Kids bandwagon. Lasorda? You'd expect him to be harkening back to the days when the farm system was the backbone to the organization.
2007-08-02 13:41:37
259.   Wilbert Robinson
248 The Dodgers are probably taking mcdonald slow as he was playing outfield in '04 and '05.
2007-08-02 13:44:44
260.   Wilbert Robinson
258 Ned broke into the industry as a very talented PR person.
2007-08-02 13:47:51
261.   bigcpa
You guys are all missing the obvious. The entire front office wanted to trade the kids-Plaschke was the one arguing to keep them.
2007-08-02 13:48:22
262.   caseybarker
I just think it's funny.

I think he has a point...

Why resign Garciaparra when you have Loney ready to play? Just the other day, a point was made in this space that the Dodgers should make use of their young pitchers like Orenduff rather than spending money on a Tomko-type.

2007-08-02 13:52:22
263.   Bob Timmermann
But Plaschke was begging for the return of Guillermo Mota.

He would have kept Eric Gagne from getting hurt.

2007-08-02 13:55:19
264.   D4P
Petit isn't cooperating.
2007-08-02 13:56:09
265.   streetjustice
I think my biggest concern is that Ned isn't an old guy; theoretically, he can ride this current wave of youngsters on a successful run for the next decade or so, while those responsible for the stock of talent depart for greener pastures.
Ned is still pretty new to this role, I think an important phase of his tenure will be over the next few years, as he identifies which of our young players should be signed to club-friendly contracts as they enter arbitration time. (The A's contract for Ben Grieve being the wrong player, the Rays' contract for Carl Crawford potentially looking good).
2007-08-02 13:59:30
266.   Greg Brock
Does anybody read into dissent vs. disagreement?
2007-08-02 14:03:18
267.   caseybarker in disagreeing about a specific move versus dissenting on a philosophy of making moves?
2007-08-02 14:04:02
268.   MC Safety
hah ben grieve i havent heard that name for quite some time. iirc juan pierre could rival his throwing skills.
2007-08-02 14:04:33
269.   Robert Daeley
252 "I was told..." -- yeah, probably told by Will Carroll and his "sources."
2007-08-02 14:04:49
270.   Marty
It may have been Grady vs. Ned.
2007-08-02 14:05:20
271.   MC Safety
marlon anderson btw just hit a ground rule double. doh!
2007-08-02 14:06:16
272.   Wilbert Robinson
If Logan White leaves we're up Poop's Creak. Ned's talent evaluation is horrifying. Again I give you Exhibit A:

We saw Ponson in the same vein we saw Jason Schmidt two years ago. Tremendous upside, on the verge of turning the corner from a good pitcher to a potential standout pitcher.

2007-08-02 14:07:18
273.   Greg Brock
267 As in, the minions disagree with the boss, and that Ned wanted to dish minor leaguers and Ng and Logan didn't. And the McCourts stood on the sideline.

The GM doesn't have a dissenting opinion. He has the opinion as boss. Unless he also got overruled by the McCourts. Which would be awesome.

I doubt McCourts said "trade the kids!" and Ned talked him out of it. I just doubt it.

2007-08-02 14:07:59
274.   Greg Brock
270 But is Grady "front office" or Manager?
2007-08-02 14:08:40
275.   Sam DC
266: Are you subtly slipping in a Rule 5 violation. Or am I misreading you entirely?
2007-08-02 14:09:11
276.   Terry A
258 - How sure is everyone that Ng would be in the "youngsters" camp?

Also, Lasorda never struck me as someone afraid to trade a prospect.

2007-08-02 14:11:10
277.   Greg Brock
276 I'm not sure of anything. This could be entirely made up.

But speculation is fun. And Harmless.

2007-08-02 14:11:14
278.   bhsportsguy
272 And Kevin Towers signed Vinny Castilla, Billy Beane traded for Jason Kendall, Brian Cashman meet Carl Pavano.

Its not fair to single out or even make lists of transactions, you can make a person look any way you that fits your argument.

Also Logan White is not infallible, he has his share of misses and incompletes.

2007-08-02 14:13:55
279.   regfairfield
278 Kevin Towers traded for Vinny Castilla. A far worse idea.
2007-08-02 14:15:04
280.   bhsportsguy
277 I think Greg has the key, its all speculation, we don't get paid to make these decisions, if we had the Comm and the inside dope, we might have to do somethings that would look strange from an outside viewpoint.

Keith Law, Will Carroll, they don't know but they get paid to state opinions based on their knowledge of the industry and what sources they do have. But unless they are in the room, they can't really say with any authority that there is any dissention.

And as I said before, dissent is healthy and I would encourage it as long as it leads to constructive disscussion and then consenus.

2007-08-02 14:15:39
281.   bhsportsguy
279 I accept the correction.
2007-08-02 14:17:07
282.   silverwidow
Don't forget Bill Lajoie - he's one of Ned's top assistants who may have wanted to trade guys.
2007-08-02 14:18:18
283.   streetjustice
I think ned meant: "We saw Ponson in the same vein we saw Denny Neagle in 2000. No upside, on the verge of turning the corner from an average pitcher to a potential contractual albatross. Too bad we didn't lock him up." He was misquoted, my contacts inform me.
2007-08-02 14:18:20
284.   silverwidow
Lajoie played a part in trading Hanley Ramirez as I recall.
2007-08-02 14:19:24
285.   Wilbert Robinson
278 If Ned were in Kevin Towers spot I don't ever see him making a deal like Adam Eaton, Akinori Otsuka for Chris Young and Adrian Gonzalez.
2007-08-02 14:20:10
286.   caseybarker
278 But there is a difference between good decision-making and good outcomes.

Ideally, if you make a good decision on a specific transaction, than that transaction will have a good outcome.

Those misses, therefore, may not reflect Logan White's fallibility but uncertainties like injuries, etc...

2007-08-02 14:20:35
287.   streetjustice
2007-08-02 14:25:32
288.   bigcpa
Hanley Ramirez is a good case study in "nobody knows anything." How does a guy hit .271/.335/.385 in AA, skip AAA and hit .311/.367/.513 in his first 1,000 big league ab's?
2007-08-02 14:27:26
289.   Dark Horse
278-Exactly what I was going to say. You beat me to it.

285-There's so much conjecture in this it's hard to know what to day: Ned isn't in Towers' spot, and your not seeing it doesn't mean it wouldn't happen if he were. It's voguish to admire Towers' moves, but he seems to have made many of late that are arguably pointless or insipid, while still others that appear good now may lose luster down the line. Will the Milton Bradley pick-up look better later than the Marlon Anderson one did. My guess? They'll be about even. I'm not quite a Colletti enthusiast, but knee-jerk or exaggerated distrust of him seems silly, and perhaps more about ideology than about actual, y'know, baseball.

2007-08-02 14:27:35
290.   streetjustice
285 Not likely. This would involve trading AWAY a older, heavily used middle relief pitcher for a young, talented infielder
2007-08-02 14:27:50
291.   Greg Brock
288 Hanley Ramirez was always a monster prospect before he came up.

So, a lot of people knew.

2007-08-02 14:28:38
292.   trainwreck
He is an example of a guy with excellent tools living up to his capabilities.
2007-08-02 14:28:50
293.   underdog
Speaking of McDonald and Dodgers prospects...

"Pair Of Suns Handling Double-A Well"

On McDonald and DeWitt.

>>>Another Sun to keep an eye on has less prospect recognition in his past. Righthander James McDonald, a 2002 11th-round draft-and-follow, went a respectable 6-7, 3.95 at Inland Empire this season and missed a ton of bats, striking out 104 in 82 innings. Since the 22-year-old was promoted to Jacksonville he's been even better, going 3-1, 1.19 with a 28-7 strikeout-walk ratio in 23 innings.

"He's got a three-pitch mix and he adds and subtracts with the fastball," Watson said. "He competes and repeats his delivery well. He's got a solid-average changeup at times, his breaking ball has been very good and he pitches at 90-93 (mph) with the fastball.

"If he continues to command the baseball like he has, I really don't think you can put a limit on his ceiling."<<<

2007-08-02 14:29:44
294.   regfairfield
291 They knew he had potential, but I'm sure they would have ranked him higher than Joel Guzman if they knew he would immediately become a top 10 player.
2007-08-02 14:30:12
295.   Wilbert Robinson
280 All i mean by the Logan White thing actually is that to me Colletti and White seem like polar opposites which is probably not the case or is a simplification. But White being their is important in that he informs Ned in making decisions better than someone who Ned would have hired or will hire once White leaves.
2007-08-02 14:30:50
296.   Greg Brock
294 Agreed. Which is why you let them develop in your system and promote them.
2007-08-02 14:31:28
297.   D4P
Only one scout knew about this guy:

2007-08-02 14:32:30
298.   Greg Brock
297 I'm not going to look. Was it an old, grizzled scout?
2007-08-02 14:32:39
299.   Wilbert Robinson
295 oof...there not their
2007-08-02 14:33:52
300.   regfairfield
296 Couldn't you apply the same logic to Guzman then?

People knew that Ramirez had the tools, but I don't think anyone could have foresaw what he has done so far. Heck, did anyone think he would improve this year?

Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2007-08-02 14:34:05
301.   D4P
Why yes, yes it was. Why do you ask...?
2007-08-02 14:36:15
302.   Humma Kavula
294 296 One problem with the Red Sox trading Hanley Ramirez is that they have had a revolving door at shortstop.

Josh Beckett, who they got, has been a key part of their rotation this year.

Yes, Ramirez is great, but it's not like the Sox got nothing for him. If the Red Sox get to the World Series, it will be because Beckett is playing a big role.

2007-08-02 14:36:28
303.   bhsportsguy
286 Injuries are part of the game, not only for Logan but for deals that DePo and Ned made as GM.

278 The Padres, due to payroll and their farm system, have to go outside the box, that was a very good deal for them.

Currently the Padres have two players on their 25 man roster that they initially signed. The Dodgers as of this moment, have 7. The D-Backs have 14.

2007-08-02 14:36:47
304.   Greg Brock
300 Yes, you could.

Someone said that "nobody saw" Hanley Ramirez coming. Nobody might have thought he'd be the best shorstop in the NL, but a lot of people were pretty sure he'd be good. He's not Roy Hobbs.

I was just refuting a statement.

2007-08-02 14:38:59
305.   Humma Kavula
I guess what I mean in 302 is:

1. Yes, the Marlins won the trade, which means
2. The Red Sox should have kept Hanley, but
3. They needed pitching and good a good pitcher (this year), who
4. Has become a key part of a squad that is a favorite to win the Serious, so
5. Among the trades people get upset about, this isn't one for me. YMMV.

2007-08-02 14:40:42
306.   bhsportsguy
302 I talked to a Red Sox fan during the spring of 2005, who told me how this Dustin kid was going to be a lot better than Mr. Poor Attitude Ramirez.

Add Andy Marte to the list of top prospects who may not be the superstar that many thought he would be.

2007-08-02 14:43:11
307.   bhsportsguy
Add playing for first place to the list of what is going on at Chavez Ravine tonight.

Unless the D-Backs have an 8 run inning in them today.

2007-08-02 14:44:46
308.   Hallux Valgus
Furcal, SS
Pierre, CF
Martin, C
Gonzo, LF
Nomar, 3B
Loney, 1B
Kemp, RF
Martinez, 2B
Tomko, P

so still no Kent

2007-08-02 14:45:53
309.   Hallux Valgus
and another jack for Ensberg
2007-08-02 14:46:33
310.   bhsportsguy
307 Ensberg hits two.
D-Backs need to roll an 11 in the last two innings to win this game.
2007-08-02 14:53:10
311.   streetjustice
An interesting question posed to Keith Law this afternoon was: "who would you rather have: Andre Ethier or Franklin Gutierez? In a circuitous way, we ended up with Ethier over Gutierez. He was another prospect that seemed to fizzle but is sort of blossoming now. Would we have been as patient with him? He is the kind of player that is going to give the Dodgers fits as they try to build from within: a tantalizing talent that fails to initially impress with extended looks in the majors. I hope we discontinue the habbit of selling low if LaRoche struggles for an entire season or so.
2007-08-02 14:53:50
312.   underdog
Darnit, I hate when Padres' moves pan out for them. Hopefully this is just a brief mirage.
2007-08-02 14:55:37
313.   trainwreck
We didn't sell low on Franklin, he was a good prospect when we traded him, but his patience and propensity to strike out were worrisome and we got Milton Bradley in the trade (who netted us Ethier). I still think it was a good deal.
2007-08-02 14:56:33
314.   Andrew Shimmin
There's no proof that Colletti chronically undervalues minor leaguers, but there certainly is evidence, which will satisfy some and not others. He signed Juan Pierre rather than let Kemp or Ethier (or Repko; Pierre came before the Furcal Express knocked him out for the year) have a go at CF. He signed Mueller, rather than let Aybar have a shot. He re-signed Nomar to delay Loney.

It's fine to say you think the young folks are playing enough, but that skirts the issue of whether he values them properly. Every time Pierre plays and Ethier or Kemp don't, it's evidence (depending on which preformed theories of value you bring to the table) that he doesn't properly value the young players. He also keeps trading admittedly second tier (though I'm loathe to accept that valuation of Betemit so soon) young players for other teams' roster filler.

I'm not saying the criticism is right; my point is that to say there's no evidence is incorrect. The only question is whether the evidence is persuasive.

Unrelated: The only time I ever booed at a stadium was the night Norm Charleton hit Mike Scioscia. I booed him, and I booed the umpire for not tossing him. If I hadn't been sitting up stairs, I would have charged the field. I was an ill-tempered eleven year old, if there was any doubt.

2007-08-02 14:59:13
315.   trainwreck
That quote where he said the kids are almost equal to the vets is pretty telling.
2007-08-02 15:01:23
316.   D4P
Every time Pierre plays and Ethier or Kemp don't, it's evidence (depending on which preformed theories of value you bring to the table) that he doesn't properly value the young players

Doesn't that speak at least as much to Grittle's valuations as to Ned's...?

2007-08-02 15:03:28
317.   streetjustice
313 sorry, I wasn't too clear. I think we recieved fair value in that trade. I meant in the future, a test of this administration will be how they deal with talent struggling. There is no indication that they will handle this poorly, but it's something to watch.
2007-08-02 15:03:31
318.   Greg Brock
315 Yeah. A real doozy.
2007-08-02 15:04:02
319.   Andrew Shimmin
316- They keep telling us they're on the same page. I accept that; anyway, Colletti is Grittle's boss. If he doesn't care enough to do something about it, then it's functionally no different from endorsing it.
2007-08-02 15:07:25
320.   D4P
I can accept that.
2007-08-02 15:07:33
321.   Gen3Blue
Re the update--Sincere congrats. to Wilson. He may cause even more confusion for the Yanks than he did here. He may face an even worse blockage from high salary players, or he may get more AB's out of First/DH. I wish him only good luck, but if he doesn't get it in NY I'm almost certain he will eventually reach a team where it makes good sense to play him.
2007-08-02 15:08:30
322.   TheDictator
I have a stupid question.

Has D. Young played since his promotion to LA? Why not give him a shot? At least one shot before demoting him.

2007-08-02 15:10:22
323.   Andrew Shimmin
Looking through the comment threads from last year's trade deadline, I notice that there were reports of the Yankees trying to get Betemit last year. The reported deal breaker, sending him to L.A. instead of N.Y., (though I couldn't find what the rest of the package was supposed to be) was: Scott Proctor.
2007-08-02 15:11:58
324.   D4P
He'll probably pinch hit for Kemp late in the game tonight.
2007-08-02 15:13:39
325.   The Saul
Call it the Pedro Martinez Effect, but I am always gun-shy about trading away any young players, especially for only short-term gain potential (see Betemit, Proctor).

Today's game in NY has put me on edge. Maybe irrationally, but I swear it seems like when we trade a young player he turns into a star (also see Konerko, Shaw),

2007-08-02 15:14:51
326.   Dark Horse
315-It's telling, unless it isn't. Maybe he means in a pulling-weight-in-the-clubhouse sense, which--in a sport where rookies are made to caddy and wear dresses--seems plausible. Maybe it means his expectations of younger players are lower insofar as he expects them to develop, not dominate. That's not the most articulate quote in the world, but it, too, is no evidence Colletti undervalues his young players. In a certain, particular sense most of us here overvalue them: many will develop into fine major league players, but Steven Drew, Alex Gordon, (insert name here) will not be winning MVP awards this year. They may become the players we expect them to be, but they are not yet, just as Nomar isn't the player he was a few years ago. Yes, I know, they're traveling in opposite directions, and it's better to go with the player more likely to improve, but I think I prefer having even Pierre in center to handing that position over to the likes of Jason Repko. Sorry.
2007-08-02 15:16:31
327.   still bevens
322 He probably would have gotten a shot last night had Hendrickson not lasted as long. Props to Lurch for that as well. Going toe to toe with Lincecum wasn't something I thought was going to happen last night.
2007-08-02 15:16:46
328.   Kevin Lewis

I was hoping Ethier and Kemp would both start tonight. I think Ethier would have caught the ball on the line yesterday.

2007-08-02 15:18:09
329.   D4P
Going toe to toe with Lincecum wasn't something I thought was going to happen last night

Their toes are about the only thing that are the same height.

2007-08-02 15:24:25
330.   Wilbert Robinson
289 distrust of him seems silly, and perhaps more about ideology than about actual, y'know, baseball

Actually I'm confused by this statement. I don't understand how distrust of Ned Colletti could have anything to do with something other than baseball. You know I'd probably trust Ned to feed my cat if I was out of town or that he'd turn off the stove we he left the house.

2007-08-02 15:26:33
331.   Gen3Blue
327 Amen

322 Not a stupid question. One of the answers that makes me feel good is that we have a surplus of good young outfielders that we don't have room for this year. Kemp and Ethier come to mind! Buy we are looking for a hot end. Space should ease up, but not fast enough for me.

There, I typed that all in synch with "White Room" , behind my DTV schedule page.

2007-08-02 15:26:55
332.   regfairfield
330 He might swap your cat for an older one with less upside.
2007-08-02 15:31:39
333.   Andrew Shimmin
326- Again, it's not proof, but it is evidence. No conclusion can fairly be drawn from one line, but that doesn't mean it can't possibly mean what some have interpreted it to mean. That a young player will not play up to his peak potential is not (to my mind) the same as failing to meet expectations. It's a failure of the expector, not the expected.

The clubhouse thing could be true, for all I know. But I don't see arguing that it is as any better supported by fact than arguing that it isn't.

330- I distrust him because of the mustache. What is he hiding?

2007-08-02 15:35:11
334.   D4P
I distrust him because of the mustache. What is he hiding?

And what's under the rug?

2007-08-02 15:35:23
335.   Hythloday
What exactly is the upside of a cat? Is it that they look funny being launched on catapults (well in the Simpsons at least)?
2007-08-02 15:35:50
336.   Gen3Blue
333,330 What is he hiding? Not a physical resemblance to Hitler, at least not effectively.
2007-08-02 15:36:50
337.   Daniel Zappala
335 They're relatively clean (compared to a dog living in your house) and well behaved, and my kids like them.
2007-08-02 15:38:12
338.   Andrew Shimmin
337- Your kids and I have something in common. Sort of like how humans share ninety whatever percent of their DNA with apes. But, still and all.
2007-08-02 15:39:39
339.   D4P
Andrew likes cats? Wow, didn't see that coming.
2007-08-02 15:40:09
340.   Daniel Zappala
338 My kids also like chocolate, ice cream, pizza, swimming, ice skating, skiing, hiking, going to the movies, and the Dodgers. Probably a big overlap there.
2007-08-02 15:41:09
341.   D4P
Doesn't chocolate contain caffeine...?
2007-08-02 15:42:13
342.   Daniel Zappala
341 You haven't heard of decaffeinated chocolate?
2007-08-02 15:44:23
343.   D4P
No, but I suppose I should have assumed that it exists.
2007-08-02 15:45:29
344.   Daniel Zappala
343 I'm joking. If you're interested, there's nothing that prohibits a Mormon from drinking a caffeinated drink. For the gory details:

2007-08-02 15:47:43
345.   Andrew Shimmin
Except for ice cream, swimming, ice skating, skiing, hiking, and going to the movies, it's like I'm practically family. Also, depending on how this season goes, I may be jumping ship for the D'backs.
2007-08-02 15:49:46
346.   Sam DC
Roger Moore sponsors Walter Johnson's baseball ref page.

Boy he was an OK pitcher that Walter Johnson.

At least, if you're willing to trust a laptop on that.

2007-08-02 15:50:11
347.   Daniel Zappala
345 You must be the black sheep. And you'll be disowned if you become a Diamondbacks fan.
2007-08-02 15:51:37
348.   D4P
I gather, then, that such things are left to individuals to decide.
2007-08-02 15:53:58
349.   still bevens
344 I think the whole point is to avoid things that can become addicting and take over parts of your life. Some people can handle not drinking coffee in the morning, some people go nuts.
2007-08-02 15:55:17
350.   Bluebleeder87

Here's some more tid bits on chocolate [ ]I was pretty stoked to find out it's origins are of Mexican roots.

Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2007-08-02 15:55:33
351.   Marty
337 But dogs have personality. Personality goes a long way.
2007-08-02 15:56:51
352.   underdog
Even though I'm a "canine," I love cats. Have two. My g/f has two. We'll be like the Crazy Cat Lady on the Simpsons in a few years. But really, I love dogs completely, but cats are just easier to have in the city, more self-sufficient, and they can still be affectionate. If you whip them properly. (I kid, I kid!) But whenever I have a house with a big yard I'm gonna get a dog, too.

Thank God for the invention of "Advantage" by the way.

So we're playing for first place tonight, and yet I don't know if I can bear to watch...

2007-08-02 15:57:11
353.   Daniel Zappala
348, 349 Yes and yes.
2007-08-02 15:58:10
354.   regfairfield
350 And they didn't drink it, they smoked it!
2007-08-02 15:58:18
355.   Marty
I'd make a horrible Mormon. But then again, I'd make a horrible
2007-08-02 15:58:49
356.   Marty
Ack, there was supposed to be a (fill in religion) at the end there.
2007-08-02 16:00:15
357.   Bluebleeder87

Today is one of those days were we don't wanna watch but curiosity will get the better us.

2007-08-02 16:00:57
358.   Andrew Shimmin
348- Picking Barry bleeding Bonds as one's favorite baseball player is acceptable in the Zappala house. But you get thrown out for liking the Eric Byrnes Irregulars? Somewhere, somebody just started writing a Mormon version of Fiddler on the Roof.

351- I wouldn't go so far as to call a dog filthy, but they're definitely dirty. Dogs are too emotionally needy. Cats can take or leave you. They'll permit you to pet them for a minute, but they get bored quickly and find something else to do. Which works out perfectly, since I do to.

2007-08-02 16:01:11
359.   Hythloday
351 - That's the big issue for me. Cats seem boring. Also crazy cat ladies scare me.
2007-08-02 16:01:19
360.   Greg Brock
356 We are always willing to take you into the fold of Dudeism.

Or not. Whatever. Totally cool either way.

2007-08-02 16:02:07
361.   Gen3Blue
Oh, boy. Looking at the broadcasters there seems to be a chance I will get Vin tonight on DTV as I did wednesday. The conditions are very similiar though not exact. The other options seem to be San Fran announcers(livable) or ESPN@ with perhaps Joe Morgan(unacceptable)I would probably go Gameday in this case, of just follow the reactions at DT.
2007-08-02 16:02:32
362.   D4P
Cats have tons of personality. Our cats couldn't be any more different from each other, and after living with them for a while, you get to know them and are able to predict a lot of their respective behaviors.
2007-08-02 16:02:35
363.   Wilbert Robinson
358 Dogs like the taste of poop. End of story.
2007-08-02 16:03:11
364.   Gen3Blue
in 361 make that Tuesday instead of Wednesday, when I did with San Fran.
2007-08-02 16:03:51
365.   Marty
It would have to be one charming It'd have to be the Cary Grant of cats.
2007-08-02 16:05:35
366.   Andrew Shimmin
359- That's an important point. The proper number of cats is one. Two is pushing it, hard. Three and I'm off the project. It defeats the purpose. Might as well just have kids, at that point.
2007-08-02 16:06:25
367.   trainwreck
I don't have any caffeine in my diet, but I am not a Mormon.
2007-08-02 16:12:08
368.   Daniel Zappala
If you want a cat with personality, I recommend a Devon Rex. They have huge, Yoda-like ears, are very friendly, make distinctive chirping sounds, and will often fetch paper or tinfoil balls.
2007-08-02 16:12:38
369.   Bluebleeder87

why not pencil in D.Young in the 2nd base slot to get his feet wet?

2007-08-02 16:13:11
370.   Daniel Zappala
368 They also are hypoallergenic for most people with fur allergies.
2007-08-02 16:13:31
371.   Wilbert Robinson
369 Even by his own admission he's horrible at fielding the position.
2007-08-02 16:14:27
372.   natepurcell
should we start the Kyle Blair countdown soon?
2007-08-02 16:15:22
373.   trainwreck
I already have very little hope we are going to get anything done.
2007-08-02 16:17:19
374.   jasonungar07
iiiiaaaamamoonnnmmmy seeeeccconddd cccccup of stttarbucksss yukon blenddddddddd
2007-08-02 16:17:21
375.   Daniel Zappala
I'm predicting an 8-3 Dodgers win today.
2007-08-02 16:19:10
376.   Bluebleeder87

so why is he even taking grounders there? (ER?) I just hope he doesn't waste away in the dugout I here he's got a descent bat.

2007-08-02 16:19:17
377.   Jonny6
Although they certainly aren't as disgusting as dogs, cats get a bit of an unwarranted free pass in the cleanliness department. Mine likes to roll around in the dirt while he's cleaning himself. I tried to explain to him how pointless that was, but he was unmoved by my argument.
2007-08-02 16:19:23
378.   Xeifrank
352. Just make sure they don't bark alot if you live near me!
vr, Xei
2007-08-02 16:19:57
379.   trainwreck
I am so glad I hate coffee. I don't need more vices.
2007-08-02 16:20:27
380.   Bluebleeder87

I'm predicting that one of those 3 runs the Gints core is gonna be a four bagger by Bonds.

2007-08-02 16:20:53
381.   Xeifrank
DodgerSims is giving the Dodgers a pre-game win probability of 53.4% tonight, down from the 55.65% win probability from last night. Padres had a 61.5% win probability today, the Rockies are +60% for tonight.
vr, Xei
2007-08-02 16:21:20
382.   Bluebleeder87
I'm thinking of getting a pet pig.
2007-08-02 16:21:22
383.   underdog
Yeah, anyone who thinks cats have no personality has obviously never owned a cat (or been owned by...) I have the Cary Grant of cats, his name is Dashiell and he's suave and smart and eccentric. Unfortunately I also have the Bette Davis of cats, too.

375 With Zito and Tomko it should be more like 8-7 but we'll see.

2007-08-02 16:21:42
384.   D4P
Or you'll give them something to bark about!
2007-08-02 16:22:04
385.   Humma Kavula
Drugs of choice in the Kavula household:

1. Alcohol
2. Caffeine

As, at the moment, Mrs. Kavula is growing KavulaSpawn, I represent the sole user of both.

2007-08-02 16:22:39
386.   Wilbert Robinson
376 probably because kent's unavailable and if martinez goes down...
2007-08-02 16:25:22
387.   Xeifrank
Cats can't be too smart, atleast not the ones in my neighborhood. I caught one in my trap last month. I was hoping to catch a possum. It's not the kind of trap that hurts, but the cat sure was happy when I let him out. I haven't seen the cat since.
vr, Xei
2007-08-02 16:25:40
388.   trainwreck
Don't try to breed it with an elephant.
2007-08-02 16:27:22
389.   Marty
Why would you want to trap a possum?
2007-08-02 16:27:58
390.   Wilbert Robinson
I think you're making a generalization here. And as my 5 grade teacher said all generalizations are useless except for one.
2007-08-02 16:28:16
391.   Wilbert Robinson
2007-08-02 16:28:20
392.   Marty
And make sure it's not a raccoon before you stick your hand in there.
2007-08-02 16:29:17
393.   underdog
How about a pet spider-pig?

Weird that Kent's not in tonight. From what they said yesterday, he was basically good to go. It's good they're being extra cautious, I guess, but the Dodgers sure could use him tonight.

2007-08-02 16:32:28
394.   Bluebleeder87
Florida 2-1 over Colorado in the 1st.
2007-08-02 16:32:58
395.   Robert Daeley
370 So are standard poodles, which is what we have.

377 You've obviously been hanging around other cats than the ones I've seen consuming all manner of unmentionables.

2007-08-02 16:36:22
396.   MC Safety
385- mix both of those together and you have sparks. one of those and i found the hike to be much brisker.
2007-08-02 16:38:54
397.   Sam DC
Why I like Don Sutton doing color. He just finished an inning that included:

1. A discussion of Adam Dunn -- "the guy has a career on base percentage around .390. that's leadoff stuff, with major home run power. people get so hung up on the strikeouts they forget how effective this guy is when he doesn't strike out." (close paraphrase)

2. A long discussion of working on his pickoff move wiht someone named "Peanuts Lowry"

3. A comment after Nats hung a slow fastball to Alex Gonzales. "That was belt high, and the way it hung there Gonzalez had time to let his belt out a few notches before knocking it over the wall."

2007-08-02 16:39:24
398.   jasonungar07
see they get it.

Betemit, who came to the Yankees from the Dodgers on Tuesday for reliever Scott Proctor, took a curtain call as the public-address system played "Better Man," by Pearl Jam.

Can't find a Betemit!!

2007-08-02 16:39:56
399.   Xeifrank
389. To keep it from feasting in my yard.
vr, Xei
2007-08-02 16:44:23
400.   Marty
399 They steal from your garden? Interesting. There's lots of possums in my neighborhood, but it doesn't seem like they take any of my stuff. Of course, the dogs could be getting undeserved blame.
Show/Hide Comments 401-450
2007-08-02 16:44:23
401.   MC Safety
397-the third part of that has me chuckling profusely.
2007-08-02 16:44:32
402.   Jon Weisman
398 - Why did we never do that?
2007-08-02 16:45:36
403.   Kevin Lewis
I really hope our hitters are patient with Zito tonight.
2007-08-02 16:45:54
404.   Kevin Lewis
Oh, and should I bring a camera for the Bonds sensation?
2007-08-02 16:46:25
405.   blue22
397 - I got a chance to catch Jim Deshaises as the color guy for Houston when LA was there a few weeks back. He's very good; they just happen to be discussing the merits of OPS, and it's superiority to traditional stats like BA/HR/RBI. In fact, for the next inning the Houston telecast used OBA/SLG/OPS when showing the player at bat (along with league averages to give it context). It was really well done.
2007-08-02 16:46:37
406.   Xeifrank
400. They steal from some of my fruit trees. Both them and the rats. I have two different sized traps in the yard. Haven't caught anything but the cat so far this summer.
Go Dodgers!
vr, Xei
2007-08-02 16:47:57
407.   Xeifrank
404. My father was at the game last night, in the back row of the left field pavillion. It was a bit of a culture shock for him and my mom. He said the flash of cameras on every pitch (to Bonds) was just amazing!
vr, Xei
2007-08-02 16:49:01
408.   Xeifrank
Jon is here... must mean a new post up top in a few minutes.
vr, Xei
2007-08-02 16:53:08
409.   Doctor
Thats great, but you can stick a fork in this years team b/c they're DONE. Kind of frustrating, waiting, again.... to feel like the Ds are a force late in the year.
2007-08-02 16:53:16
410.   Jon Weisman
408 - Nope, not yet. I'm unpredictable that way.
2007-08-02 16:57:47
411.   Xeifrank
410. You must be trying to come up with another funny post headline. :)
vr, Xei
2007-08-02 16:59:25
412.   Bluebleeder87
darn it the Rox tide it up in Florida 2-2 in the 3rd.
2007-08-02 17:00:09
413.   GoBears
409. Dr. Non-Sequitur, I presume?
2007-08-02 17:00:48
414.   underdog
409 That's the spirit!
2007-08-02 17:01:37
415.   gpellamjr
409 Yeah, the fat lady has sung.

411 Yeah, Jon has a hard time with humor. I see him in his thinking-man position struggling and straining for each little morsel of mediocre humor.

2007-08-02 17:03:18
416.   jasonungar07
402 Jon Weisman
398 - Why did we never do that

Oh no quiet the opposite, they stole it from your headline. Unless I am wrong, I never heard it at DS

2007-08-02 17:10:29
417.   Jon Weisman
411 - Right now, it's "August 2 Game Chat"

416 - I know. DS should have done it too!

2007-08-02 17:17:58
418.   goofus
Any chance Kemp is getting a last start before they send him down to call up LaRoche? Now that Young's up here, we're sort of long on outfielders and another infielder might be more useful, although Martinez guaranteed his contract extension with those hits the last two nights...
Memo to D. Young:
Avoid the strikeout at all costs. Ground outs to second are preferred; grady tells himself if it was 10 feet to the right or left, it'd be a hit. So you get a "C" score for that while a strikeout gets you an "F".
2007-08-02 17:20:04
419.   jasonungar07
I read that wrong Jon. I gotcha now.


Last night I missed the first 7 innings. I get in the car and the crowd is going nuts. (I was at my first Lamaze class)

So here is Rick Monday and how he buzzed killed me. It's like he has no sense for the drama of the moment

"Those were 2 of the nastiest sliders you will ever see. Dodgers down 3-2 in the eight, runner on 3b and her comes Bonds"

So I hear the top of the eight on the way home. I get out of the car and my dog wants his walk, my cat wants her food and I just want to see what is going on.

I then turn on the TV and pause it as I see Furcal is on base. Walk the dog, get the cat food etc and sit down and watch that blissful bottom of the eight. That was great.

2007-08-02 17:24:03
420.   twerp
382. "I'm thinking of getting a pet pig."

Supposedly cats rank below only pigs on the animal intelligence scale.

I sometimes wonder how a creature that does some of the things my cat does can look so wise.

And I'd like to know how many species were evaluated...and I'd sure like to see the IQ test. See it, not take it.

Pigs may just have a good PR man...

2007-08-02 17:25:08
421.   regfairfield
418 Why would they send down Kemp, who has performed marvelously, for a guy that the Dodgers can't be that high on?

If any outfielder goes down, it's Delwyn.

2007-08-02 17:25:10
422.   natepurcell
the LV 51s game is on directv channel 648!
2007-08-02 17:26:06
423.   Zach the Ripper
Hello all! First time posting here. Like that quote on the sidebar, where has this site been all my life? Anyways, I went to the game last night and had a blast. Traffic was sick so I didn't get there till the 3rd. Responding to the poll question about why we boo or dislike Bonds...I personally dislike Bonds not for the roids or the pirouette, but for the fact that the guy is a multi-millionaire and cheated on his taxes. That's the biggest slap in the face in my opinion.
Also, I can't find the specific post in which to respond, but Saito did not pull a "Clemens bat throw". Like the true gentlemen Saito is, he soft tossed the bat to the bat boy running out to pick up the Saito-slidered bat fragments.
Mr. Weisman, you rock! This site is far-and-away the best sports blog out there.
2007-08-02 17:27:55
424.   Jon Weisman
423 - Thanks, and welcome. And thanks for the info.

Sorry to cut you off, but new post up top.

2007-08-02 17:29:17
425.   Jacob L
423 Welcome.

418, 421 - Yeah, I'd have to figure that Kemp is here to stay. They do need to call up an infielder, though, with only Martinez and Saenz on the bench. Hate to be the spoilsport, but I think its more likely to be Abreu than LaRoche. I can't figure out a way that we'll see LaRoche before September.

2007-08-02 17:29:21
426.   goofus
[421} Oh, I forgot, you know it all...
2007-08-02 17:31:00
427.   bhsportsguy
420 Spider Pig,
Spider Pig,
Does whatever a spider pig does
Can he swing from a web?,
no he can't, he's a pig,
look out, he is a Spider Pig.
2007-08-02 17:31:30
428.   regfairfield
426 Seriously, why on Earth would they send down Kemp for Delwyn? That would be like dropping Bills for Stults. If you're going to present a completely bizarre theory, it's best to back it up.

Delwyn got called up because he was one of two hitters left on the 40 man that weren't hurt and not on the big club. He's not a Kemp replacement by any means.

2007-08-02 17:32:16
429.   Wilbert Robinson
From the last thread about kemp being sent down:

Gosh I hope not.

July Splits:

.471/.550/1.021/60 AB Ethier

.338/.574/912/68 AB Kemp

.287/.317/.604/82 AB Gonzo

2007-08-02 17:32:50
430.   Jon Weisman
426 - Read rule 7 on the sidebar. That wasn't necessary. He was offering an opinion, same as you.
2007-08-02 17:33:20
431.   Jon Weisman
428 - Although that retort could have been softer.
2007-08-02 17:34:28
432.   Andrew Shimmin
426- Do you think you could take whatever problem you have with regfairfield over to his site, or to his email box? It's not that much fun for the rest of us.
2007-08-02 17:34:54
433.   underdog
425 I've got a better idea - as much as I love the Tomato, replace him with LaRoche. That solves several problems, imho.
2007-08-02 17:35:26
434.   regfairfield
432 But, then I'd have to deal with it on my site.

431 Sorry, Jon.

2007-08-02 17:39:31
435.   Andrew Shimmin
434- Trolling has been way down over there, compared to what it used to be. I just wanted to help you recapture the magic!

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