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About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
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11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

Garvey Trivia
2007-08-08 09:59
by Jon Weisman

Another diversion ...

In his long consecutive appearances streak, how many games did Steve Garvey not start?

Bonus question: How many innings did he miss?

* * *


1975: Garvey's streak began on September 3, 1975. On that day, he started but came out in the middle of the seventh inning, missing the final two innings. He played complete games the rest of the season. The Baseball Page asserts that the streak could have been about 300 games longer had Garvey not sat out September 1-2 because of the flu. 0 starts, 2 innings missed

1976: Garvey was hit by a pitch in the top of the eighth on May 7 and left for pinch-runner John Hale. He also left in the top of the eighth on June 2, and missed the top of the ninth on September 17 (second game) and October 1. 0 starts, 4 innings missed

1977: Garvey left 17 games early this season - so I'm going to suspend my count of his innings missed. He missed his first two starts of the streak in this year, though. On May 28, Ed Goodson started at first base, and Garvey pinch-hit for Stan Wall as the final batter of the game, flying out in a 6-3 defeat. On August 15, Boog Powell started at first base, and Garvey walked as a pinch-hitter for Rick Monday in the ninth inning of another 6-3 loss. 2 starts missed

1978: Garvey came out of five games early but had 0 starts missed. On the final day of the season, Pedro Guerrero entered as a defensive replacement for Garvey in the bottom of the first and went 2 for 3 to finish his first big league experience batting .625.

1979: Garvey came out of nine games early but had 0 starts missed.

1980: Garvey did not start the second game of a doubleheader in Cincinnati on May 26. Guerrero got the call and went 3 for 4 to raise his 1980 batting average to .545. (Guerrero began that year 9 for 14 before slumping all the way down to .322.) Garvey popped out as a pinch-hitter for Charlie Hough leading off the top of the ninth of a 5-4 loss. Garvey left four games early. 1 start missed

1981: In this shortened MLB season, Garvey did not finish eight games, including September 7, when Mike Marshall pinch-ran after a first-inning RBI single by Garvey. 0 starts missed

1982: On May 2, Garvey pinch-hit in the fifth inning of a 13-1 loss. (Rick Monday started at first base, one of 22 games he played at that position as a Dodger.)

On May 22, for the first time in nearly seven years, the Dodgers won a game that Garvey did not start at first base. Monday was the starter in a 3-2 victory. Garvey entered the game defensively in the top of the 8th inning, failing to bat for the first time since the streak began.

Here's where things really started to get dicey. From June 28-July 4, including a doubleheader, Garvey started but did not finish seven consecutive games. He played all of July 5. Then on July 6-8, he started each game but was gone by the second inning. And on July 9-11, he came off the bench three straight contests, two of them losses.

He played almost all remaining innings from July 12 on, leaving three games early but missing only one more start. 6 starts missed

1983: Off to San Diego. Garvey started every game for the Padres, leaving five early, the last being the one in which he suffered his season- and streak-ending thumb injury on a play at the plate, in the first game of a doubleheader July 29. The streak ended when he did not play in Game 2.

Total: Garvey played in 1,207 consecutive games, starting all but nine, leaving 65 others early.

Comments (194)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-08-08 10:08:20
1.   underdog
Gee, now, why are you bringing this up, I wonder? ;-)
2007-08-08 10:11:48
2.   Gen3Blue
A way of dealing psychologically with the Los Angeles Dodgers?
2007-08-08 10:43:44
3.   Neal Pollack
Is Garvey available now to play CF?
2007-08-08 10:50:47
4.   Bob Timmermann
My guess is 10.
2007-08-08 10:51:15
5.   Joshua Worley
Pierre is actually one of the few Dodger hitters who has done well lately. In the last six games, he has an OPS of 0.858. Ethier is at 0.979, Nomar at 0.758, Martin at 0.651, and everyone else below 0.600.

It's not much consolation to me, but the team will do better than this. The hitting slump won't last forever.

Of course long-term Pierre is a problem, but I don't think he can take much blame for the current losing streak.

2007-08-08 10:56:44
6.   Telemachos
The problem with Pierre is that even when he's red-hot, he's still a relative non-factor, so while I'm not blaming him for the losing streak, his hot bat isn't doing much to help them get out of it. He simply isn't creating much offense on his own... part of this is his lack of power, since he essentially hits nothing but singles and doesn't drive anyone in (although this isn't entirely his fault, since he doesn't necessarily have a lot of changes, with Furcal slumping and the pitcher's spot before Furcal).

And while he steals bases in bunches, they don't particularly seem to be in spots where they actively help the team. I'll give him full credit for getting on base and being hot these days, but it's a lackluster hot streak for sure.

2007-08-08 10:59:14
7.   old dodger fan
6 Any hot streak is lackluster when you are losing.
2007-08-08 11:03:04
8.   Daniel Zappala
When forming the plural of a last name, do not add an apostrophe!

Sorry, I just needed a place to vent, and I knew Bob at least would appreciate this.

2007-08-08 11:04:23
9.   Telemachos
That's certainly true, and I don't really feel like carping on Pierre. But, for example, Kent's recent hot streak felt... well, hot. Every time he came up he was about to cause damage. With Pierre it just feels.... lukewarm.
2007-08-08 11:05:57
10.   Xeifrank
We wouldn't be having this conversation if Pierre could hit for some power, had a good arm, walked more often, didn't hit the ball in the air so often, wasn't paid $9mil over 5 years and wasn't blocking any young players. So cut the guy some slack!
vr, Xei
2007-08-08 11:08:06
11.   Xeifrank
8. which side does the soup spoon go on?
vr, Xei
2007-08-08 11:08:25
12.   fanerman
10 Well, if he hit for more power, we wouldn't mind if he hit the ball in the air, right?
2007-08-08 11:09:01
13.   ToyCannon
Bonus question: How many innings did he miss?

Not enough for Boog Powell.

2007-08-08 11:09:17
14.   fanerman
8 What prompted that? I couldn't find any example of a last name on this thread (maybe I'm not looking hard enough).
2007-08-08 11:09:33
15.   Humma Kavula
Right. The problem is that when Kent gets hot, he becomes Babe Ruth or Barry Bonds for a week, but when Pierre gets hot, he becomes, well, Shane Victorino.
2007-08-08 11:09:37
16.   Jon Weisman
Actually, I didn't mean for this to turn into a Juan Pierre thread. I mean, I haven't meant for any thread to turn into a Juan Pierre thread for weeks or months now.

I admit when I thought of the question that Juan Pierre came to mind, but I honestly meant for this to take our minds off our current troubles. Backfire!

2007-08-08 11:10:35
17.   Jacob L
You know, Steve Garvey never walked much.
2007-08-08 11:10:38
18.   Humma Kavula
10 Then he'd be Jimmy Rollins, and that would be an acceptable situation.
2007-08-08 11:11:38
19.   Bob Timmermann
Steve Garvey threw worse than Juan Pierre. Way worse.
2007-08-08 11:13:35
20.   Daniel Zappala
14 Nothing here, just something I read elsewhere online. I see it far too often.
2007-08-08 11:14:44
21.   fanerman
17 But Steve Garvey hit for power.

19 But Steve Garvey played 1B.

2007-08-08 11:14:56
22.   ToyCannon
I remember Garvey having a strong arm not a weak arm. Didn't he move from 3b to 1st because his arm was a scattergun not a popgun?
2007-08-08 11:16:11
23.   ToyCannon
If there were plural Willie Mays, would it be Willie Mayss?
2007-08-08 11:17:40
24.   Xeifrank
are we being graded on spelling/grammar? If so, I hope it's not on a curve. vr, Xei
2007-08-08 11:18:18
25.   old dodger fan
Amazing-This thread drew 4 posts in 43 minutes then JP was mentioned and it drew 15 posts in 20 minutes.

BTW-Tonights starter Aaron Harang was having a good year but hurt his back in the 1st inning on Jul 28 and has not pitched again until tonight. Maybe an opportunity for us to get healthy; of course I thought that last night too.

2007-08-08 11:19:14
26.   Linkmeister
15 Hey, don't be ragging on Victorino. He's got 11 HRs this year!

(I gotta stick up for the "Big League Bruddah," as our sportscasters call all Hawai'i players in The Show.)

2007-08-08 11:19:25
27.   ToyCannon
I don't think Blake DeWitt has gotten a hit since Canuck told us the story, about a week ago, about why DeWitt was hitting so well in AA.
It would appear, that it has nothing to do with desire, but more with the fact he's not very good.
2007-08-08 11:21:07
28.   fanerman
25 Talking about grammar helps, too.
2007-08-08 11:23:11
29.   Bluebleeder87
Steve Garvey threw worse than Juan Pierre. Way worse.

I've heard stories were he bounced the ball to 2nd base from 1st base! wow. TC I heard he had a good arm when he was younger but maybe he busted a Jeff Bagwell of some sorts.

2007-08-08 11:27:49
30.   Humma Kavula
26 I'm not ragging on Victorino. He's quite a nice, useful player.

That's what Juan Pierre becomes when he's super-hot: a nice, useful player.

Then he cools off.

OK, I'll stop talking about Pierre now.

2007-08-08 11:27:58
31.   Joshua Worley

How often do comment threads turn out differently than you thought they would?


As for the original question about Garvey, I have no feel for what the answer would be because I only started following the Dodgers in 1983, when I was 8 years old. But, let's see, he was good defensively ( right? ), so he would never be lifted for a defensive replacement. He was a pretty good hitter, so he'd never be lifted for a pinch hitter or double switched out. I'm thinking that at the end of blowouts players at more strenuous positions would be given a rest, not Garvey. So I'm guessing innings missed would all be at the beginning of any game he didn't start.

My answer for innings is 8 missed, with only one start missed, because of, say, an accident at home with a hammer.

2007-08-08 11:28:35
32.   Jacob L
There's an interesting discussion in "Historical Baseball Abstract" comparing Garvey to Buckner saying that, basically, its hard to compare their traditional defensive stats. The reason - Garvey took virtually every grounder he fielded to the bag, because his arm was so lousy. Buckner fed the pitcher on virtually every grounder because his mobility was so lousy. Thus, Garvey had an extraordinary number of put-outs, and Buckner and extraordinary number of assists. I'd imagine any serious comparison of Garvey's so-called throwing arm to Pierre's would be similarly problematic. Both of them avoid making any real throws.
2007-08-08 11:29:56
33.   old dodger fan
29 I remember times when Garvey took a sharp gounder at 1st with a runner on 1st and would go to the bag rather than throw to 2nd for the DP. Maybe it's anecdotal and the stats won't bear out the trend but I do remember thinking that a few times.

If you want to remember a scary Dodger throwing arm Steve Sax went through a period second to none. Not even Jose Offerman could compare with him.

2007-08-08 11:30:12
34.   Bluebleeder87

Victorino also has a WAY better arm then Juan Pierre.

2007-08-08 11:30:49
35.   fanerman
32 That's the reputation I thought Garvey had. He avoided using his arm, so while he didn't make errors, he didn't necessarily make the play that would have benefited the team the most (ie, the 3-6-3 double play).
2007-08-08 11:31:18
36.   ToyCannon
Padres are going to waive David Wells and put Ledesma into the rotation. When he was available I wanted the Dodgers to nab him. Now we'll find out if that would have been a good thing or not. Always liked his potential with the Tigers. I think the Padres will get a Gaudin like performance out of him and I bet he outpitches Tomko/Hendrickson if they give him the ball every 5th day from here on out. Nothing special but certainly a pitcher the Braves should have kept and a pictcher the Dodgers should have taken a chance on.

Mark 2007 as the year that John Schuerholz lost his touch.

2007-08-08 11:31:46
37.   JoeyP
27- DeWitt has 2bbs in 87 at bats. I dont think he's very good either.
2007-08-08 11:31:59
38.   Bob Timmermann
Garvey would have caught Mookie Wilson's grounder in Game 6 of the 1986 World Series.
The guy rarely misplayed a grounder.
2007-08-08 11:32:13
39.   das411
26 - Thanks for beating me to it Link!

From today's Phila Inq: "Shane Victorino (strained right calf) began a running program Monday and could begin a rehab assignment this weekend. He is eligible to be activated from the DL Aug. 15."

18 - 2007 Home Runs:

Wilson Betemit 10
Luis Gonzalez 11
Russ Martin 12
Jeff Kent 15
Jimmy Rollins 20

just sayin'...

2007-08-08 11:32:26
40.   fanerman
35 I'd also note that Garvey retired when he was 2 years old. I imagine I saw him during those 2 years because my parents have been baseball fans for a long time, but my ability to scout players at that time was questionable, to say the least. So I'm going by what I hear from other people.
2007-08-08 11:32:55
41.   TellMeTheScoreRickMonday
25 I too am finding this hilarious--what started out as a Garvey thread has metastasized into a Pierre thread, like a cancer or a fungus. Maybe we should buy the domain for "Sons of Juan Pierre".

But furthering this conversation, is the Juan Pierre walk-up song incredibly annoying to anyone else besides me? Did Steve Garvey's walk-up song spout "I used to play consecutive games like Steve Garvey"?

2007-08-08 11:33:05
42.   Bob Timmermann
I'd also note that Garvey retired when he was 2 years old.

He looked a lot older to me.

2007-08-08 11:33:43
43.   Penarol1916
Toycannon appears a little bit ornery today.
2007-08-08 11:34:56
44.   Bob Timmermann
But Ledezma lost his work visa for the U.S. temporarily when he sent it through the washer.

I found that funny.

2007-08-08 11:36:47
45.   Daniel Zappala
23 There are mixed opinions, but I prefer Mays over Mayses. Lots of people would say the "Joneses" are coming for dinner, but I prefer to say the "Jones" are coming for dinner. Or, the Jones family is coming for dinner.
2007-08-08 11:37:00
46.   old dodger fan
36 David Wells has a better arm than JP but I still would not sign him.
2007-08-08 11:38:21
47.   ToyCannon
Other ex-Dodger news.
Chad Hermanson was traded from Florida to the Mets. Bet you didn't think he even playing baseball.

Elmer Dessens was waived by the Brewers joining Brady Clark who quit the RedSox in the search for employement.

2007-08-08 11:39:05
48.   Humma Kavula
39 Sorry, I'm not following.
2007-08-08 11:39:27
49.   GobiasIndustries
I remember Steve Garvey winning weight lifting competitions on the late 70's, early 80's 'Battle of the Network Stars' or some show like that on ABC I think. With those gigantic, hairy forearms, I find it hard to believe that he had a weak throwing arm! He was no Hulk Hogan but he was no George the Animal Steele either.
2007-08-08 11:42:30
50.   Daniel Zappala
36 What about his numbers makes you think this? And why does Ledezma spell his name with a 'z' instead of an 's' like Aaron Ledesma and Arturo Javier Ledesma?
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-08-08 11:47:27
51.   Sushirabbit
50 ... so the Red's announcers can argue about the correct pronunciation of his name?
2007-08-08 11:47:27
52.   dzzrtRatt
40 I'd also note that Garvey retired when he was 2 years old.

Just like Pearl the landlady.

2007-08-08 11:47:44
53.   Curtis Lowe
I too dislike Juan Pierres song, it wouldn't be soo bad if it were someone else but that it's his own name being said is really tacky cheese.
2007-08-08 11:48:28
54.   fanerman
52 I, not he. Oy vey. Silly me.
2007-08-08 11:49:28
55.   Bob Timmermann
Wil Ledezma is a "Z" according to B-R.

I have no idea why. The Spanish change back and forth between Z and S in names just to make things difficult for me.

And Ismael Valdez (ne Valdes) is the worst offender!

2007-08-08 11:49:37
56.   silverwidow
Hu is playing 2B right now. Looks like they want him up sooner than later.
2007-08-08 11:50:07
57.   MJW101
I think Ned is getting bashed unfairly with regards to providing starting pitching for 07.

At the end of the 06 season the rotation consisted of:


Tomko and Hendrickson having flamed out as SP.

Ned looked at the rotation after the season and must have felt there was a weakness that needed to be fixed. Maddux had been fairly successful, but put too much pressure on the bullpen by not pitching deep into games. Maddux insisted upon 2 years AND his agent was BORA$$ so he had to go. Apparently, there was also too much youth in the rotation.

Ned began his quest for SP in 07 as did everyone else in MLB. Things got out of hand as they are wont to do lately (see Zito).

He performed a wonderous coupe by convincing the previous ACE of the SFG (Schmidt) to come to LA. Unfortunately, Ned performed his usual statistical analysis using numbers from a couple of years ago and relied on questionable medical expertise. Be that as it may, I cannot fault Ned for signing Schmidt. It was a calculated risk that we lost.

He also signed hometown boy Wolf late of the Phillies. Now Wolf had a history of serious injury and he was just recovering from said injury. It was a high risk signing, but again I cannot fault Ned for trying to improve the rotation creatively. Again it was a calculated risk that we lost.

At the beginning of the 07 season our rotation was:

with Tomko given the #5 after a rigged competition

Hendrickson replaced Schmidt on 4/19 after Schmidt succumed to a shoulder injury he probably had all along.

Kuo replaced Tomko on 6/2 after Tomko proved to be his normal ineffective self.

Schmidt came back, was still injured and was replaced by Billingsley on 6/21.

Kuo was reinjured or never really recovered from his spring injury and was replaced by Hendrickson on 7/4.

After a period of declining effectiveness Wolf admitted to being injured and was replaced by Tomko on 7/15.

Consequently, after 7/15 our rotation is:


Essentially, the difference between the end of the 06 seson and the current rotation is Tomko replacing Maddux and Hendrickson replacing Kuo.

Was it worth all the aggravation?

2007-08-08 11:50:44
58.   Humma Kavula
53 You have to wonder if even Pierre is getting sick of it. I mean, at first, it's cool -- I got name-checked by Jay-Z! -- but after hearing it a hundred times maybe enough is enough.

From his interviews, it seems like the guy is pretty down-to-earth and doesn't have a huge ego.

There is certainly the possibility that the stadium DJ is responsible for playing the song over and over and that Pierre just hasn't said anything about it.

Also, I wonder if Nomar ever gets tired of hearing "Lowrider." Oy.

2007-08-08 11:53:47
59.   ToyCannon
He was brought up to soon by the Tigers in 2003 at the age of 22. He's never been able to replicate his minor league success at the major league level and control continues to plague him.

Still he's only 26 and like most Left handed pitchers born in Guarico,Venezuela in January he will be a late bloomer.

In other words, it is a gut call based on watching him pitch and nothing more.

2007-08-08 11:55:10
60.   Daniel Zappala
53 Oh, you did that just to bug me, didn't you, using a plural instead of a possessive?
2007-08-08 11:56:58
61.   Daniel Zappala
59 Given that he was rushed, would it have been possible to pick him up and put him in the minors, or did the Padres have to put him on the big league club?
2007-08-08 11:59:23
62.   GobiasIndustries
Elmer Dessens was released by the Brewers today. Why not bring him back for a third tour of duty and make him a starter. He can't be worse than Tomko can he?
2007-08-08 12:01:55
63.   regfairfield
61 He's probably out of options, so he would have to go to the big club or go back on waivers.
2007-08-08 12:06:40
64.   Zak
I disagree that Ned is being bashed unfairly. Signing Schmidt and expecting him to be healthy all year is a calculated risk. Signing Wolf and expecting him to be healthy all year is a calculated risk. Signing them both and expecting them both to be healthy all year is a toss-up, or worse.

For the record, I was ok at the time with the Wolf signing but thought that the Schmidt signing was a disaster. Of course, part of the reason Ned should be bashed is because he is responsible for having both Tomko and Hendrickson in our lineup as well.

Regarding Maddux, if Ned's point was that Maddux was not deserving a two year contract because he was aging, then why do people like Nomar get two year contracts? I think the only reason Maddux is not a Dodger this year is because of what happened with Drew and Boras. Of course that's just my opinion.

2007-08-08 12:10:23
65.   Jon Weisman
Answers revealed in update to this post above.
2007-08-08 12:13:23
66.   regfairfield
64 Compare the Dodger rotation to the Padres right now, and how are things any different. Right now, the Padres have Peavy/Maddux/Germano/Ledezma and someone. Germano sucks, he just pitched over his head for a few starts, Maddux is pretty much a product of PETCO (3.71 at home versus 4.70 on the road), Ledezma was a waiver claim, and they don't have anyone else on the 25 man roster who made a start this year.

Would you rather take the Padres rotation right now, or the Dodgers? Would you swap it for the Diamondbacks? Most teams rotations look pretty bad once you get into 7th/8th start territory.

2007-08-08 12:15:27
67.   JoeyP
He also signed hometown boy Wolf late of the Phillies. Now Wolf had a history of serious injury and he was just recovering from said injury. It was a high risk signing, but again I cannot fault Ned for trying to improve the rotation creatively. Again it was a calculated risk that we lost.

The problem with the Wolf signing is there really wasnt any upside. Wolf was a thoroughly average pitcher, that really is only a slight upgrade over Tomko/Hendrickson. He does eat innings. But he's also going to be in that 4.50 ERA range. Thinking that Wolf would improve the team very much, was the bad part of the equation. Just adding average veterans really hurts teams more often than helps, bc those average vets take up payroll space (thereby hurting your chances of chasing the bigger fish), and usually prevent rookies from getting their shots.

Thats why I really had a problem with the Nomar, Gonzo, Pierre, Wolf signings. Those guys are all average, (or below). Use your money to chase the big fish, or give the rooks the jobs (Loney, Kemp, MeLoan, Orenduff, Etheir).

2007-08-08 12:16:13
68.   D4P
I guess I'll listen to the Rocky game. Which announcing team is better? I've never listened to either...
2007-08-08 12:16:49
69.   ToyCannon
Maddux is 41 years old in one month. Nomar is 34. Not saying that Nomar should have been signed, just saying you can't compare signing a 41 year old pitcher to a 34 year old infielder.
2007-08-08 12:19:03
70.   JoeyP
66--Young is starting tomorrow.
So the San Diego staff is actually much better than the Dodgers.

I dont really think Germano sucks so long as he keeps the ball in the yard, and doesnt walk people.

2007-08-08 12:20:07
71.   Zak
66 Well, it's not about which rotation I would take now. It's about what decisions were made when the season started. The Schmidt signing was a mistake and I feel that would have been true even if he wasn't out for the year. It turns out Maddux > Schmidt + Wolf this year, and you could have made a case for that at the beginning of the year.

Also, to answer your question, if Young rejoins that rotation tomorrow as expected and Peacy pitching like he is, I don't think it's close which rotation you'd have to take. The only caveat being Billz and his potential of course.

2007-08-08 12:20:09
72.   Robert Daeley
Use your money to chase the big fish

I think that was part of the problem -- the big fish didn't want to come here.

2007-08-08 12:20:40
73.   Jon Weisman
66 - I keep making this point, but I don't know how much traction it gets.

Just the fact that hindsight would recommend giving Schmidt's spot in the rotiation to either Gil Meche or Eric Stults speaks volumes, I feel.

2007-08-08 12:22:41
74.   GobiasIndustries
Since when?
2007-08-08 12:23:59
75.   GobiasIndustries
Scratch that.......i read the post wrong. I thought you said "the big DON'T want to come here."

Sorry for the confusion

2007-08-08 12:25:13
76.   ToyCannon
I wouldn't want Arizona's rotation but I sure would take their outfield.
2007-08-08 12:26:32
77.   Gen3Blue
40,42 As I was reading through the posts I could actually feel BT coming with that one.
2007-08-08 12:27:59
78.   Zak
69 That is an agist remark. Their performance this year shows that age is not a factor in this discussion. You can't seriously tell me that Nomar is in better health than Maddux is this year or next or the next one. By the way,

2007 VORP

41 year old pitcher - 20.9
34 year old infielder - 0.8

2007-08-08 12:28:26
79.   Curtis Lowe
What big fish? I thought Schmidt was a big fish and that Zito was the biggest fish this last offseason.

Regarding Germano, Any pitcher is a better pitcher when they aren't walking people or giving up home runs to people.

2007-08-08 12:28:46
80.   Branch Rickey
52. You mean Pearl the interrogator.
2007-08-08 12:31:07
81.   capdodger
Oh my. It's the discussion of surname pluralization again. Surnames are singular collective nouns and are to be pluralized by adding 's' or 'es'. Spelling of the original name shall not be changed. "Jones" becomes "Joneses". "Nomo" becomes "Nomos". "Bonds" becomes "Bondses" and "Zappala", "Zappalas". If you don't like the sound of the construction avoid it by using the name as an adjective describing the family as in, "The Bonds family celebrated last night by...".

If only Toaster had an easy way to diagram sentences.

2007-08-08 12:31:36
82.   Daniel Zappala
67 When healthy, Wolf has actually been in the 3.8 to 4.2 ERA, not 4.5, if that makes any difference.
2007-08-08 12:32:01
83.   Dodgers49
>> Tony Abreu, placed on the restricted list at Triple-A Las Vegas, was scheduled for an MRI on Tuesday after seeing Dr. Craig Smith on Monday. Smith is a specialist in sports hernia injuries. Abreu has complained of lower abdominal discomfort since he was optioned to Las Vegas July 18. <<

This is interesting. reports that Abreu was placed on the restricted list but the 51's web site says he's on the Reserve List (Minors) . Is this just two different ways of referring to the same list? Or, are they two distinct lists? Anyone here know for sure?

2007-08-08 12:32:12
84.   Jon Weisman
78 - Seems like you're overreacting to ToyCannon's remark.

I'm curious how old Zak is. I have a solid idea of how old Toy is.

2007-08-08 12:33:15
85.   Jon Weisman
83 - Does it matter? I think the Abreu thing is being overanalyzed. He's hurt, they don't know what's wrong. If he could play, he would play.
2007-08-08 12:33:57
86.   fanerman
77 I was doing my best Bob Timmerman impression. It got screwed up with that typo.
2007-08-08 12:37:08
87.   D4P
2-0 Rockies.
2007-08-08 12:38:54
88.   Daniel Zappala
The goalie for the Ducks, Giguere, had surgery for a sports hernia and is expected to miss about 5 weeks. Abreu could possibly fix this, if he has a hernia, and be back this season.
2007-08-08 12:40:50
89.   Bob Timmermann
I was doing my best Bob Timmerman impression.

Who is this person you're doing impressions of?

2007-08-08 12:41:31
90.   Daniel Zappala
This quote is appropriate for the Dodgers:

We are not retreating - we are advancing in another direction. (Douglas MacArthur)

2007-08-08 12:41:53
91.   silverwidow

Pierre, CF
Furcal, SS
Martin, C
Kent, 2B
Ethier, LF
Nomar, 3B
Loney, 1B
Kemp, RF
Billingsley, P

2007-08-08 12:43:57
92.   Bob Timmermann
Let the Harang(uing) begin!
2007-08-08 12:44:04
93.   D4P
I love it. Pierre moves up in the lineup.

PS: 4-0 Rockies

2007-08-08 12:44:20
94.   Jon Weisman
I think the overall points are these:

1) To have five healthy quality starting pitchers last an entire season is akin to winning the lottery. Ned could have done better in this regard, but the pitching he accumulated by March had plenty of merit.

2) Every other team in the NL West has starting rotation problems similar to those of the Dodgers, despite the fact that the Dodgers have had lost more starting pitchers to injuries. Arizona, San Diego, Colorado and San Francisco all have problems in the back ends of their rotations.

3) This is why, even though the road has gotten so tough for the Dodgers, I can't quite give up on the season yet. Though their starting pitching is in disarray, their rivals are also vulnerable. And the Dodgers are not going to continue to go hitless with runners in scoring position.

The longer the Dodgers play badly, the harder it gets for them to rally - there is a limit to how much losing they can take, obviously. But it's hardly over.

If the Dodgers had a four-game lead with a week to play in the season, would you feel secure? Judging by past years, many would still be nervous, and for good reason, because much can happen in a week.

So how can the Dodgers be out of it when, after playing their worst ball of the season, they are four games out with seven weeks to go. Penny and Billingsley and Lowe give the Dodgers a fighting chance in three of every five games. No other contending team has more than three reliable starting pitchers that I can see.

If Lowe can't shake this hip problem, of course, it only makes things tougher. But the Dodger offense we have seen in three of the past four games (they scored seven runs on Saturday) is not the Dodger offense we should expect to see for the remainder of 2007.

Few have given Arizona more respect than me, but the Diamondbacks can't be considered a lock to continue playing as well as they have. The Dodgers have it tough, but the other teams do too.

2007-08-08 12:44:20
95.   Xeifrank
87. 75% win expectancy for the Rockies already. vr, Xei
2007-08-08 12:45:16
96.   Jon Weisman
93 - Hey, we've got Ethier and Kemp playing together. That's something.
2007-08-08 12:45:40
97.   Robert Daeley
79 Big bat fish. From off-season reports and subsequent comments by Colletti, a few of the bigger names (IIRC, Adriano Soriano, Carlos Lee, et al.) didn't want to move out west.
2007-08-08 12:45:43
98.   fanerman
89 I was going to double check your last name spelling, but I was lazy and figured if I was wrong, I'd at least annoy Daniel Zappala.
2007-08-08 12:46:23
99.   Bob Timmermann
If the Dodgers had a four-game lead with a week to play in the season, would you feel secure?

Don't drop the boy!

2007-08-08 12:48:46
100.   kinbote
schmidt: injured
wolf: injured
pierre: beyond terrible
gonzo: unnecessary, due to ethier/kemp
tomko/hendrickson: see pierre

it's sure hard to summon up much love for colletti right now.

yes, he's refused to sell the farm, but how long does that even mean anything?

he basically inherited an organization ripe with young talent and surrounded it with expensive junk.

one last thought: i like grady, but he can't give pierre even ONE day off???

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-08-08 12:49:04
101.   D4P
6-0 Rockies.
2007-08-08 12:49:32
102.   Curtis Lowe
This is the line up including the pitcher that might help Bobble Russ get out of my desk drawer.
2007-08-08 12:50:00
103.   Jon Weisman
99 - Exactly.
2007-08-08 12:50:05
104.   D4P
8-0 Rockies.
2007-08-08 12:50:43
105.   capdodger
104 Are you sure they're not playing pinball?
2007-08-08 12:50:46
106.   fanerman
100 Pierre's got a streak to keep up, so one day we'll see a "Pierre Trivia" post on Dodger Thoughts.
2007-08-08 12:51:21
107.   D4P
Holliday, Helton, Atkins, Hawpe, Spilgorghs can mash.
2007-08-08 12:51:37
108.   Bob Timmermann
Which will quickly morph into a discussion of Steve Garvey!
2007-08-08 12:52:04
109.   regfairfield
97 Would you really want to pay those guys more than they're making now? I would want to destroy Ned if we had to give Carlos Lee 18 million in 2009.

He's having a good year, but he's also in a very favorable park for him. (1.018 OPS at home, .792 on the road). When you consider how bad he is defensively, Lee is on pace for only about a six win season this year, and he doesn't exactly scream "guy who will hold up in the long term". Same for Soriano.

2007-08-08 12:52:20
110.   Curtis Lowe
Soriano didn't come out west because the Cubs offered him a crazy huge contract, Lee preffered Texas and got offered a huge contract there.

What other "Big Fish" have refused to come out west?

2007-08-08 12:53:25
111.   Daniel Zappala
98 You spelled my name right, what do I care about Bob?
2007-08-08 12:55:19
112.   old dodger fan
94 If our top 2 hitters in the line up have OPS+ of 71 and 87 and our 3B has an OPS+ of 80 how much offense can we expect?

I am less concerned about the rotation than I am about our inability to score runs. In our last 11 games we have been held to 2 or fewer runs 7 times. Yeah, it is a small sample size but it is a scary trend.

You are right, it is too early to panic but with 3 teams to contend with I think we should assume that at least one of them will play well the rest of the way. We need to play better than the best of the three.

2007-08-08 12:55:33
113.   ToyCannon
I like this lineup and our chance for a victory expect that were due for a bad Billingsley given his tendancies.
2007-08-08 12:55:53
114.   fanerman
111 Purely convenience. Your name was where I was looking so I was able to copy it. You've been a bit grammar crazy today, so I thought you might be spelling crazy, too.
2007-08-08 12:57:44
115.   El Lay Dave
By signing several $5 - $10 million veterans, plus Schmidt, Ned thought he was doing a good job of keeping up with the Joneses.
2007-08-08 12:59:00
116.   Dodgers49
85. I'm sure you're right. I'm probably reading too much into it. I really like Abreu so I've probably been overly concerned about him.
2007-08-08 13:00:07
117.   Telemachos
Since I was bashing Pierre earlier, I'll offer this up:

Since he's hot at the moment, why NOT have him lead off? A scrappy single is fine, and then you open up options with Furcal coming up (hit-n-run, steal, run-n-bunt, etc). Normally I wouldn't want Pierre at lead off, but I can't really complain about him there today.

2007-08-08 13:02:34
118.   kngoworld
Regarding the Colorado game Holiday(triple), Helton(double), Atkins(single), and Hawpe(Home Run) consecutively hit for the cycle in the bottom of the second.
2007-08-08 13:02:40
119.   D4P
The problem with calling Pierre "hot" is that he really isn't. From what I can tell (and correct me if I'm wrong), he's not doing anything differently from what he does when he's "cold". The only difference is his groundballs have been making it to the outfield lately, which I attribute primarily to "luck" rather than skill or being en fuego.
2007-08-08 13:02:56
120.   Robert Daeley
109 I'm not advocating any of those moves -- it was all about trying to get players with the ability to hit the ball over the outfield wall. Between folks not wanting to come, and available-in-trade power hitters being stupid-expensive in prospects, Ned wasn't able to swing a deal.
2007-08-08 13:06:54
121.   Daniel Zappala
114 Actually I'm spelling crazy too. Bob and I have to stick together because we both have double letters that confuse people.
2007-08-08 13:07:00
122.   bhsportsguy
94 See Jon, apparently this team won in spite of the management but loses because of it.

There were some here who very much wanted to move Penny for some offense before the season started.

You can cite injury risks to Schmidt and Wolf but those who wanted Kuo to get a starting nod also should have kept in mind his much more troubled injury history before giving him a starting role.

Its funny how we cite Nomar's injury history in giving him a deal but the Dodgers always had a backup plan for him, Nomar still hasn't gotten hurt this year, his performance is down, (not dissimilar to Scott Rolen who is hurt), again as Jon said, Ned had perhaps too much backup and not enough faith to just play the kids but both Nomar and Luis Gonzalez have played pretty much all the way without injury.

What the Dodgers needed was a healthy Furcal, its evident that when he is healthy, that has a huge impact on the offense and pretty much since the beginning of the year, his ankle has bothered him, his 100 point split from right to left has been an issue all year.

Maybe this team won't make it but to say it should only spend money on high ceiling players, frankly there are just not too many free agents that ever meet that criteria, you are talking about players at a minimum who have played 6 seasons and many of them are second time around free agents. And you are always paying for past performance.

Perhaps A-Rod was a once in lifetime type player, still young enough to be entering his prime but with a track record that you could base his performance on. Pujols would have been another but guys like Andruw Jones and Hunter will have many years of playing on their bodies when they finally sign their next big deal.

Right now Arizona is playing young with some good if not spectacular vets sprinkled in, San Diego is playing a bunch of journeymen players (some guys like Gonzalez, Peavy, Young aside), some with chips on their shoulders (I mean you may not like how the team is playing but do you want to watch Hairston, Ensberg, et. al. on the field everyday), actually the Rockies are slightly ahead of Arizona because their youngsters have more experience.

Interestingly, this season is a lot like last season and it wouldn't surprise if each of the four teams either lead the division or the wild card at different times in the remainder of the season.

2007-08-08 13:07:22
123.   Telemachos
119 Well then, let him lead off while he's still lucky.
2007-08-08 13:07:26
124.   Jon Weisman
112 - "Yeah, it is a small sample size but it is a scary trend."

The fact that it's a small sample size is more relevant.

One could easily say that the Dodgers' trend in July was that they were hitting .300 as a team. Did you/would you expect that to continue on that level? Of course not.

2007-08-08 13:10:25
125.   regfairfield
112 As I said a few days ago, the problem with hitting 14 points better with RISP than normally is that you are eventually going to hit that 3 for 30 streak to even it all out. Once the Dodgers luck normalizes, things should be not as terrible.
2007-08-08 13:11:17
126.   bhsportsguy
BTW, see Milwaukee as what could happen to any of the teams in the playoff race in the NL.
2007-08-08 13:12:50
127.   Branch Rickey
124. But Bill Mueller! =)
2007-08-08 13:13:44
128.   old dodger fan
I have been reading a lot here today about JP being "hot" and I am having trouble seeing it. In the last 6 games in July he was 2 for 21 so the reference to "hot" must mean August.
In the 6 games in August he is batting .348 (which might qualify as hot) but before his 3 hits last night his August BA was .263.

He has 1 extra base hit in his last 14 games.

All I see that qualifies as hot is one game.

Am I missing something or are we reaching to look for something good?

2007-08-08 13:15:07
129.   fanerman
Like everybody's saying, our struggles are just a by-product of our type of offense (ie, no power). We're okay when we have 7 or so guys hitting above .280 or whatever, but when we don't, we end up with lots of LOBs.
2007-08-08 13:15:11
130.   D4P
11-0 Rockies.
2007-08-08 13:16:07
131.   bhsportsguy
125 Last year, they hit 10 points higher with RISP (.286 to .276), currently it is down to 7 points higher.
2007-08-08 13:16:08
132.   old dodger fan
124 Logic tells me that you are right but I'll feel a lot better when we start scoring runs and winning games.
2007-08-08 13:17:33
133.   underdog
Yeah, I have to say, I like today's line-up. (Except for it going against the demands of my "Free Mike Lieberthal Society" ;-) ) Let's see if it can pull its weight.
2007-08-08 13:17:53
134.   Daniel Zappala
126 For that matter, look at Boston's lead shrinking to 5 games and the Mets lead is even slimmer. Think of how upset Mets fans will be if they fall out of the playoffs while the Yankees climb in!
2007-08-08 13:18:44
135.   ToyCannon
Knowing that we have Scott Proctor allows me to rest easy after each loss knowing that someday he'll make his presence felt and all will be right with the Dodger world once again.

Is it ironic that the one time we needed Nomar not to be healthy he was? I feel I should take a class on irony I'd hate to get lambasted like Alanis Morissette for daring to use the word irony in a pop song in an improper context.

2007-08-08 13:18:46
136.   bhsportsguy
127 I pictured you with Eddie Murray at a local drinking establishment doing your best Edward G. Robinson impression from "The Ten Commandments."

Whose your [Hitting Coach] now!!

2007-08-08 13:19:32
137.   underdog
For those of you scoring at home, the players that have cleared waivers (that we know of so far):
Kyle Farnsworth: $5.25MM in '07, $5.5MM in '08
Mike Piazza: $8.5MM in '07
Wily Mo Pena: $1.875MM in '07 (pricey for a bench guy, but I sure would like to have him coming off the bench...)
2007-08-08 13:19:35
138.   regfairfield
131 It was 14 a couple days ago.
2007-08-08 13:20:14
139.   Jon Weisman
I have to admit, since I so often get preseason predictions wrong, I'm feeling pretty good about being worried about Colorado and Arizona.
2007-08-08 13:20:15
140.   ToyCannon
That's great. Where are those media pundits who praised him just a short time ago.
2007-08-08 13:21:10
141.   bhsportsguy
135 I am not implying that Nomar should not be playing, I am saying that there were plans in case he got hurt.

As Jon has said, perhaps we were overly prepared for that possibility and maybe should have not put ourselves in that position in the first place.

2007-08-08 13:21:11
142.   fanerman
Wily Mo Pena can play centerfield can't he?
2007-08-08 13:22:08
143.   ToyCannon
Bit shocked to see Wily Mo clear waivers. You telling me the Nat's shouldn't give this guy 550 at bats and see what he's got.
2007-08-08 13:23:01
144.   ToyCannon
No, he's Adam Dunn light in the outfield. He's played it, doesn't mean he can.
2007-08-08 13:23:48
145.   underdog
142 In a word, no.

143 I'm shocked, too, whether the Nats, Royals or someone else. However bad his defense, he's worth taking on.

2007-08-08 13:24:21
146.   bhsportsguy
143 They have Dimitri Young to play OF.
2007-08-08 13:25:44
147.   ToyCannon
You have to wonder if Nick Johnson will ever be able to play 1st base again. I can't believe they gave Dimitri the contract without being very worried about Nick's future.
2007-08-08 13:26:31
148.   fanerman
144 I seem to recall seeing him play CF, but I suppose I just saw him standing there and not him chasing down a flyball.
2007-08-08 13:27:09
149.   Gagne55
David Wells has been DFAed. He'd be a great player to sign. Stick Hendrickson back in the pen where he is good.
2007-08-08 13:27:52
150.   old dodger fan
Pitching line from Brewers-Rockies today.

Gallardo 2.2 12 11 11 3 1 2 4.20

He started the day with an ERA of 2.55.

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-08-08 13:28:31
151.   Hythloday
143 Jobu didn't clear waivers with him. Without Jobu and a live chicken to sacrifice Wily just can't hit.
2007-08-08 13:29:16
152.   ToyCannon
Roto players the world over who were gloating for the last month are now crying in their beer.
2007-08-08 13:31:15
153.   fanerman
2007-08-08 13:31:24
154.   still bevens
152 I wasn't banking on him, but I picked him up because the rest of my team is awful. The fact that I did this probably correlates to his poor showing. Im the anti Midas.
2007-08-08 13:32:51
155.   ToyCannon
Just don't touch Phil Hughes or Justin Upton then.
2007-08-08 13:33:31
156.   Hythloday
149 - The upside to signing Wells would be the sumo matches in the bullpen in his off-days. My money is still on Broxton, but Wells is scrappy. We should sign Mike Fetters again and maybe Jose Mesa just to form a well-rounded league.
2007-08-08 13:34:42
157.   ToyCannon
Bartolo Colon is a FA this year. I think he'd fit in great with your team.
2007-08-08 13:35:02
158.   Hythloday
153 -
2007-08-08 13:38:40
159.   D4P
15-2 Rockies.
2007-08-08 13:38:45
160.   fanerman
158 Umm, what? Jobu?
2007-08-08 13:41:07
161.   Hythloday
from imdb:

Pedro Cerrano: Bats, they are sick. I cannot hit curveball. Straightball I hit it very much. Curveball, bats are afraid. I ask Jobu
to come, take fear from bats. I offer him cigar, rum. He will come.

Eddie Harris: You know you might think about taking Jesus Christ as your savior instead of fooling around with all this stuff.

Roger Dorn: Sh[oo]t, Harris.

Pedro Cerrano: Jesus, I like him very much, but he no help with curveball.

Eddie Harris: You trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?

2007-08-08 13:42:01
162.   Hythloday
157 I only want Colon if he forms a tag-team partnership with former teammate C.C. Sabathia
2007-08-08 13:43:21
163.   Hythloday
Cindi Lauper can be their manager. I don't she's doing anything right now.
2007-08-08 13:43:37
164.   rockmrete
Is Hu playing second base a fallback for Kent's pending trip to the DL? or perhaps trading Kent to a contender?
2007-08-08 13:47:20
165.   fanerman
161 Ah, I see.
2007-08-08 13:52:20
166.   underdog
164 Kent's not going anywhere. The Dodgers are as much a contender as many other teams right now, and it would be complicated to try to trade him, too. Hu could very well be insurance for injury. We could see him in September at any rate.

Btw, I missed this on Diamond Leung's blog until now (sorry if a rerun): >>Grady Little gave the team a talking-to after the game and had this to say to the media: "If they continue like this, we're going to have to ask for our pitchers to throw some shutouts and hope for a tie."<<

2007-08-08 13:52:43
167.   Daniel Zappala
164 Now that's interesting. Imagine the Dodgers did fall below .500, and Kent cleared waivers, who would need Kent and could pay up with a decent prospect? My money would be on the Angels. Good insurance in case Kendrick can't come back this year, and he can spell Kotchman at first and play DH.
2007-08-08 13:57:09
168.   Dodgers49
149. David Wells has been DFAed. He'd be a great player to sign.

Wells has looked worse to me than Hendrickson. I wouldn't touch him with a ten foot pole. :-)

2007-08-08 14:00:26
169.   Jon Weisman
X-rays taken Wednesday show Rockies pitcher Jason Hirsh suffered a broken leg when he was hit by a line drive in the first inning the night before, even though he stayed in for five more innings and got the victory.

The club said Hirsh has a fractured fibula in his lower right leg. He will be re-evaluated Thursday.

2007-08-08 14:00:32
170.   Daniel Zappala
Wells has looked worse to me than Hendrickson. I wouldn't touch him with a ten foot pole.

Or in other words, you wouldn't touch him with Mark Hendrickson.

2007-08-08 14:03:49
171.   Curtis Lowe
166 - Good for Grady, nice to see him listening to me.
2007-08-08 14:05:55
172.   ToyCannon
Your not as funny without a boatload of kids but that did get a chuckle.

Tough break for the Rockies.

2007-08-08 14:06:18
173.   D4P
I'm hoping Grady ended the talk by falling on a coffee table and smashing it to smithereens.
2007-08-08 14:12:00
174.   Daniel Zappala
170 If it helps, we can still joke around about the boatload of kids. I thought everyone pretty much got that it was a joke all along, and was surprised it got converted into gospel.
2007-08-08 14:13:33
175.   rockmrete
I still have hopes that the team will turn things around soon. I am not so confident that Lowe is healthy though.
2007-08-08 14:13:46
176.   Curtis Lowe
173 - that made me laugh and think of a bucnh of possible quotes that could be in a Matt Foley speach given to the Dodgers during this current crisis.

None of which were worthy of posting.

2007-08-08 14:15:09
177.   ToyCannon
So Milton is hurt again, Wells is released, Kouzmanoff is bleah, Jose Cruz is released, Branyan is released, Marcus Giles has been benched, Barret has been a bust, and the rotation now has a waiver wire guy from the Braves. So tell me again how smart the Padres are?
2007-08-08 14:15:33
178.   trainwreck
At least we are not trying to bring back Reggie Miller.
2007-08-08 14:16:40
179.   Bob Timmermann
Macowiak Cove!

Scott Hairston for President!

2007-08-08 14:17:27
180.   wronghanded
173, In a van down by the river?
2007-08-08 14:18:44
181.   underdog
Yeah, seriously, I'd much rather have Hendrickson than Wells. For what that's worth, which isn't much. But Wells looks truly awful whereas Hendrickson will at least give you some solid innings... (and a few not so solid)
2007-08-08 14:19:24
182.   Daniel Zappala
Personally, I blame expansion. Having a good team these days requires some good management but then an awful lot of luck. There are not enough good/great players to go around. You have to somehow make it through a whole season without injuries to a few key players. Even then, because there is so much parity anyone can win in the playoffs. It's one big crapshoot.

I say contract 1/3 of the teams and let's see some great baseball.

2007-08-08 14:22:41
183.   Curtis Lowe
Bring back the Good Ol' Days!


2007-08-08 14:22:55
184.   regfairfield
177 They do have a better record than us despite half the payroll, so that's something.
2007-08-08 14:25:55
185.   ToyCannon
Yup, can't argue with that.
2007-08-08 14:33:22
186.   D4P
I say contract 1/3 of the teams and let's see some great baseball

I agree, though 1/3 is tough. Let's contract:

Tampa Bay
Kansas City


2007-08-08 14:33:43
187.   MJW101
Hirsh must be some tough guy!
2007-08-08 14:33:44
188.   Robert Daeley
185 Actually, you can argue with that, since Jake Peavy and Chris Young would not be making $4,750,000 and $600,000 respectively on the open market right now.
2007-08-08 14:37:29
189.   D4P
See: Martin, Loney, Billingsley, Kemp, Broxton, etc.

Actually, might as well throw Penny and Lowe in there too.

2007-08-08 14:38:42
190.   Daniel Zappala
186 Add Arizona and Colorado for an even 1/3. I would also appoint a commission to forcibly remove teams from bad owners.
2007-08-08 14:39:56
191.   Jon Weisman
Game thread is open up top.
2007-08-08 14:40:11
192.   Robert Daeley
188 My point is that San Diego's "half the payroll and four games ahead" is deceiving, not that we don't have cheap players.
2007-08-08 14:46:19
193.   Vaudeville Villain

It's also worth noting that San Diego is constructed very differently from our own team. They bring in and jettison the Morgan Ensbergs, Jerry Hairston, and Jose Cruz Junior's of the world, because they HAVE to. They don't have a worthwhile farm system, meaning that they have nothing worth trading to another team that doesn't effect the core of their team (their pitching), and they don't have the money to be spending on the high-priced free agents. I think their strategy is actually quite sound, bring in undervalued players like Cruz Jr., ride out their hot streaks, and then dump them for the next similar player when the hot streak is over with, hoping that the next guy you bring in is able to get hot.

2007-08-08 14:59:19
194.   goofus
90 Incorrect attribution. It was Marine General Oliver P. Smith on the occasion of his division's "retreat" from the Chosin Reservoir in North Korea...

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