I watched the game on a bit of delay and didn't notice the booing of Hernandez, but that's too bad. On the plus side, though, I was pleased to see the Dodger fans giving a standing O/applause for Craig Biggio after his last at bat. It was a little unexpected imho. So there's that at least.

I wish Hernandez wasn't on the team at all, but booing him's a little classless.

Happy about the W, though.

Don't know if it got mentioned in the last thread before I got LAT'd, but according to ESPN, the Bums are apparently interested in David Wells... that's an improvement, right?

I feel like people might have been less inclined to boo if Hernandez hadn't started out the inning with two walks, despite being up 6-0. It might have been in bad taste, but the negative feelings weren't completely unwarranted.

I find whistling to be a much more civilized way to voice displeasure. But we yanks probably think it's too soft.

Getting booed in your 1000th game probably wasn't in the plans.

Don't quite know how it works but just read the Tony Jackson and LAT piece on Abreu. I am thrilled he is back and playing and hopefully healthy.

If I understand the rules he is probably due about 30-40k, if he would have been what now seems correctly put on the major league DL? Even if it is 100K, which I doubt, why would the Dodgers do something this stupid? At this level of dollars 30-40k is the equivelent of a quarter.

I think some of it just has to do with the way the team is playing right now. Its been a frustrating couple of weeks here and I think people are just afraid of the worst happening. I know its no excuse for booing a pitcher for giving a run or two, but it just seems like the crowd is on edge at the ballpark lately. I seem to hear more yelling and cursing at the last few games Ive been to and thats bad enough, but it really does bother me when the fans at the ballpark boo their own team for the little things. When Tomko is at his worst for the fourth straight game I cant fault them. But when people were booing Broxton a couple of months ago I couldnt believe it. And when people were booing Hernandez for giving up a couple runs when we were up by 6... its just very disappointing. The fans at Dodger Stadium just arent the same as they used to be and it only seems to be getting worse.

But on the bright side...

TWO GAME WIN STREAK! WOO HOO!!!!!

I could've watched the game with 1 since I was also on delay. I'm disturbingly convinced that if I watch the game in real time and chat on the boards, I'm bad luck.

Is there any class left among Dodger fans? If it's classy to support players who are trying hard but struggling (and yes, it's classy), then no.

Honestly, from a player's perspective, what is there to like about us? Not much. Dodger fans remind me of the plastics in the movie "Mean Girls." You know, mean for the sake of being mean and feeling oh-so-good about it.

Sam, from the last thread, thanks for the description of Kearns's mis-step. We only saw the race to the bag and then Romero reacting to it, but it looked like he might have slipped on the dirt with his first step and that may have cost him the split-second he needed...but what can ya do?

...and dare I ask, what did you think of the Alfonseca Dance?

JW: "from a player's perspective, what is there to like about us?" is just totally a Rule 3 waiting to happen, as soon as the lovely Ms. Milano's name is mentioned again...

So when are Dodger fans allowed to boo one of their own players? Are there rules governing socially acceptable behavior when it comes to booing?
vr, Xei

Once again, Jon, props for telling it like it is. Booing your own players is just totally uncalled for.

Smithers: They weren't booing, they were saying "Ro-BOO-erto! Ro-BOO-erto!

Sorry, I couldn't help myself. As you were.

{from the last thread} Did Kemp really say "We swang the bat..."

Matt, Matt... do we have to set you up with Henry Higgins?

Just got back from the game. It was a great time, but the crowd was displeased with Hernandez walking people with a 6 run lead, followed by Ramon Martinez's error on a routine ground ball.

It felt to me more like a reaction to the poor play we have just lived through. I don't think those same situations would have elicited so many boos under different circumstances.

Some of you may know that I often complain about the boorish trend in fan behavior these days - but tonight was different. The crowd was supportive - but not willing to accept walks (and errors by defensive replacements) with a 6 run lead. I was rather unhappy myself.

Gotta roll on down Imperial Highway...

The nasty turn of Dodger fans did not begin in August 2007. This is just the latest chapter.

I did notice scattered applause for Biggio, but not that much.

The crowd is supportive when things go well - which is the easiest thing to be.

I wasn't happy with Hernandez's walks or Martinez's error at all. But is booing the reaction to have? It saddens me to think that Los Angeles fans will think that's the normal reaction to anything going wrong.

9 - You'd have to ask someone else. To me, something really awful would have to happen for me to boo, no matter how unhappy I was.

What exactly is the Dominican Summer League? Are any of the players on the DSL Dodger team prospects?

To me, booing politicians and American Idol contestants is almost always fine. Booing players is almost always wrong.

7 - "and feeling oh-so-good about it."

I think there's a lot of truth to this. I think many people really relish the booing. I see people smile as they boo.

It's also okay if the guy's name is Boo.

Like if Boo Radley played for the Dodgers.

14 Really? I guess the FSN cameras just found one section where the crowd was standing and applauding. It was enough for Biggio to notice and tip his cap, at any rate, even if they weren't delirious. But I definitely think it's too easy for fans to boo these days - I've been on the Dodger crowds earlier this year for a few times where they really seemed to cross the line.

Strictly from a television viewer's persepective, Dodger fans have been becoming progressively more boorish roughly since Fox bought the team. I don't know what the deal is since I don't attend games at the stadium. But it's something that's been getting obviously worse over the past few years. I mean, booing Hernandez is one thing, but Dodger fans booed Stephen Randolph tonight for getting hurt and delaying the game. They booed a guy for getting hurt. What is this, Philadelphia?

I would have no problem with booing your own team given the right circumstances and tonight was probably one of them. I had the volume off during the 9th inning, so I didn't hear when the boos for RH occurred, but if people we indeed booing, who's to say exactly what they were booing at. Perhaps they just wanted this pitcher removed from the game. Perhaps they don't want this pitcher on the team. Perhaps it was nothing personal against RH, and they were just letting off a little steam. Maybe that was their outlet for dealing psychologically
with the Los Angeles Dodgers and baseball? Let he who is without boos, be the first to cast stones. Oh wait, we don't want fans throwing rocks either. :)
vr, Xei

Even from section 55, I could see fans standing and applauding for Biggio after his last at bat. Most of them were behind the Houston dugout.

This would be a lengthy conversation, of course, but it really does open up a larger issue for me which is the general lack of decorum - and an increase in angry, boorish (boo-rish?) behavior in public - in American society as of late. A reflection of lots of things, again too complicated to go into here, but it's something that really bothers me in general. And I do think people get some of their cues from TV, from competitive reality and variety shows and celebrities in general. Rude is "in" it seems. Sad, sad, and I don't know what can be done about it other than either make everyone happier about their lives or sic a cloned Army of Miss Manners on the country.

Maybe all the Raiders fans just migrated to the Dodgers.

Love the movie "Mean Girls".

Just about the only thing I would boo at Dodger games are the fans who would rather throw a beach ball around, do the wave, and get drunk than watch the game.

before I go to bed, any word on tomorrow's starter? Stults I assume?

I pray they don't sign Wells. He looked awful to me this season.

It was also mini-DT get together tonight as I hobnobbed with bhsportsguy, Jacob L (who managed to get out of the house five days after becoming a daddy for the second time), and Vishal (attending with his father).

However, Frank McCourt didn't come to visit us.

I also like to thank Barry Cohen for the free parking pass. When you use an electronic one, they give you a special pass to stick on your dashboard. And apparently, they are all identified by a player.

Tonight was "Hendrickson."

21 "I would have no problem with booing your own team given the right circumstances and tonight was probably one of them."

The Dodgers won 6-2, the game was never in doubt, and the starting pitcher faced one batter over the minimum. If those are the right circumstances in which to boo, what the heck are the wrong ones?

I don't think I would have minded the booing as much if fans had cheered Hernandez when they announced his 1000th game.

Anyway, it was nice to see the Dodgers clearly be the better team on the field for the first time in a while.

No need for a clone army; she's got a syndicated column:

http://tinyurl.com/8o7r6

Must everyone always insult Raider fans when hating on Dodger fans? Raider fans don't boo their own team as much as Dodger fans do.

Just be cautious where you sit if you are wearing opposing teams gear.

Speaking of whistling, I was at the game on Monday and there was a lot of whistling - there was an extended whistling crescendo at one point that sounded a lot like a soccer match boo. I couldn't tell if that's what it was, or if it was just something that started then people joined in for fun, but I've never heard anything like it at an American sporting event. I was wondering if it was due to the influence of all the Latin American futbol fans in the crowd. I have noticed that the Dodger crowds are more Hispanic than ever before, which is somewhat surprising to me but I also kinda like it. Dodger Stadium during a baseball game reflects the city a lot better than does the Staples Center during a Laker game.

If it was Barry Bonds playing his last game, should Dodger fans applaud or boo? Remember baseball is suppose to be entertainment!

I will also say this: Most of my friends who follow baseball are fans of other teams. And it's really damned embarrassing to be associated with the morons who go to games at Dodger Stadium. Whenever I meet someone and have to tell them I'm a Dodger fan, it's more like a sheepish admission than the proud declaration it should be. I always feel obliged to add the disclaimers. No, I'm not one of those people who arrive in the third and leave in the seventh. (An exaggeration, sure, but one with a basis in fact.) No, I'm not one of those people who bats beach balls around and does the wave. No, I'm not one of those people who would boo their own mother if she popped up a bunt. But say "Dodger fan" to anyone in America, and those are the preconceived images they have.

32
I noticed that whistling too Monday. It was very soccer-like.

Is there any class left among Dodger fans?

Your making the assumption that things have somehow changed. Have they? I too young to know, but I do know that booing has been a part of baseball for some time.

I think, and I could be wrong, that it's more about your perspective than anything (is this what happens when you have kids, you start getting uptight and don't even notice it?).

C'mon, chearing for a guy just called up from the minors because of some random fact on the megatron? It seems a bit curmudgeony to complain about fans booing so much.

BH and I were at the whistling game Monday. I remember saying to him "What is this, the World Cup?"

It wasn't even organized whistling. It was like a whistling contest between two moronic factions. At some random point in the game.

28. If you pay the $$$ to go to the game, you have the right to boo/cheer whatever you wish. I have no problems with people booing, I wouldn't likely be one of them. I am just not one to judge people on such an unimportant issue.
vr, Xei

37 my side won the whistling contest that night for sure. your side was lame.

38 "If you pay the $$$ to go to the game, you have the right to boo/cheer whatever you wish."

True enough. I also have the right to walk down the street yodeling to myself while wearing clown shoes, parachute pants, and week-old body odor. That doesn't make it a good idea.

40
It would be if you got rid of the clown shoes.

I don't consider a guy pitching in his 1,000th game "some random fact."

38 - It's their right to boo. It's my right not to like it. And I think it's perfectly reasonable to judge people on actions that by definition are a judgment of other people.

38
I agree

Some people relieve their frustration by booing the players, other people relieve their frustration by complaining about the people booing the players

32 Yeah, I was there Monday. The whistling was very surreal. I just kinda picked up on it and then sat there wondering how long the whistling had been going on and if I had been missing it the whole time.

The problem is that if the Dodgers organization made a concerted effort to curb the boorish behavior, it would most likely increase.

Like putting "No spitting" signs on the subway.

42
Thats a good point, but if you don't like the people who attend baseball games, or don't approve of their actions, then there are sports for you like gold, tennis, and polo where the fans behave themselves. It strikes me like people complaining about the noise and smoke of a Vegas casino - this is the atmosphere, take it or leave it.

Thanks to Bob for the ticket, though I lost mine so I end up buying a ticket to be a guest of Bob.

Thanks for the brownies too, they seemed to be hit with all who had one.

Bob had to scramble to find the last game he attended where the Dodgers had a 2 run lead at any point.

With Lowe getting guys out rather easily and the Dodgers scoring runs easily, it was a pretty low key affair until the 9th.

I too was annoyed when Hernandez gave up the runs but the booing did not begin in earnest until Martinez muffed the grounder and it wasn't everyone but since the crowd was pretty relaxed, you could hear it.

On a positive note, now having met a lot of the regular posters on DT, it has been a pleasure to get to know you all and even in the dark times, it nice to share something like the Dodgers with such a good group of folks.

I actually don't think a lot of the booing is mean-spirited or malicious. It's just people booing when something transpires that they don't like.

Booing Barry Bonds is another matter.

46 "Thats a good point, but if you don't like the people who attend baseball games, or don't approve of their actions, then there are sports for you like gold, tennis, and polo where the fans behave themselves."

The thing is, baseball used to be one of those games. And now it's not -- at least not in Los Angeles. And it seems the reason for that change is what Jon is wondering about.

Baseball was never snooty like golf and tennis, but there was a time not so very long ago -- maybe 10 years -- when there was a certain code of common sense that dictated when to boo players. Booing was a serious thing, reserved for serious situations. And that's why it had such an impact -- because it was so rare that when it happened, it actually meant something. Now there are 35 occasions per game where the fans will boo something. It's 50,000 boys crying wolf in unison, and their booing has ceased to mean anything.

Those who are defending the booing, I would ask you to look back at the comment in 20 and come up with a way to defend that. Please explain for me the thought process that goes into booing an athlete who has just injured himself on the field, and why it's a good idea to do that.

42. How can you judge when you don't know what they are booing for?

46. Good points. It's a baseball game, people boo, for whatever reasons. If they start cussing or throwing stuff, yeah then it gets a little uncomfortable.
vr, Xei

46 I don't think it's completely anti-booing. It just seems like it's increasing, and happening at really inappropriate times. I don't mind booing. I mind booing when the team is up four runs in the ninth. Or booing an injured player, as Eric said.

Booing Tomko giving up a four spot in the first inning is fines by me. Just not my thing.

I bemoan the lack of creativity. There's a colorful tradition of heckling in baseball, and the descent into "[...] sucks" only reaffirms a sad resignation that I've come to peace with having visited 28 of the 30 parks: In aggregate, Dodger Stadium fans have as poor a median IQ as any venue in major league baseball.

The good news? There isn't a better fan community than the one that resides here. It's a trade-off I'll gratefully accept.

My issue with the beach balls is not only my steadfast belief that, by virtue of the law of averages, one of those balls is eventually going to land on the outfield track during play, wrecking havoc on Andre Ethier's ACL and possibly compromising a game.

The other is simply that I don't want to touch a piece of vinyl that a hundred other people have touched. Beach balls are floating collective buggers.

49. I don't think anyone can nor needs to defend the booing of an injured player to prove any point. vr, Xei

The Dodgers gave away a lot of tickets to tonight's game to youth groups. So I think it skewed a little younger and a little more rowdy.

24 - Mr. B, that is pretty much the bottom line.

45 - I disagree here. The O'Malley-era ushers used to have a "no tolerance" policy towards any swearing or agressive behavior. That set the standard and kept the place Disney clean.

Now, we have Dodger execs who struggle with whether or not the word "suck" constitutes swearing while allowing all kinds of other bad acts to go unpunished.

And just to be perfectly clear, I cannot stand when Dodger players get booed. I don't even like it when opposing players and umpires get booed (within reason).

I just felt that tonight's boos were at least well-informed. I still wish it wouldn't happen, though.

... I don't think it's anything resembling a lack of "class", as much as it's a general frustration with the team.

I didn't see this team in spring training as a fourth-place team; a .500 team. But, that is what they have become, and the fans are frustrated. I'm frustrated. I can understand the booing completely. The players and the team deserve this. Sure, some boo with a smile. But, many others boo with embarrassment and disgust. Or, like me, they stay away from the park.

Sure, they've suffered injuries. But, every team goes through that; it's part of the game. The real reason for this collapse is that the Dodgers have simply played some sloppy and ineffective baseball ... they are not playing to the level of their talent. They have also managed to toss in some little league blunders along the way.

Perhaps there is frustration at the general incompetence of the manager and GM.

The young players, by and large, were passed over early in the season -- and they are now learning the lessons they could have learned sooner, when the team was reasonably healthy. Now they are being pressed into service out of necessity, not choice, because the veterans are too brittle or too feeble to contribute ... and the lessons are being learned at the expense of games lost.

Jon, you make mention of Hernandez 1000th game and how big of a deal that is. But that's the whole point -- he SHOULDN'T be here. He is one of a few symbols of why this team is in the lowly state it's in.

There used to be something truly special about the Dodger franchise. Over the last eighteen years, the special-ness of this team and this franchise has gradually faded away. Eric Enders has said "What is this, Philadelphia?" Well, it may as well be, because the Dodgers have become the Phillies in blue and white; a fair-to-middling team that underachieves in the big situations.

I have said several times this season that the Dodgers are being made to fight this divisional battle with one hand tied behind their backs, because of prominent roles being given to inferior players for much of the season. This, for me, has been infuriating and sad to watch; it's been the most un-fun year for me as a Dodger fan of 27 years, without a doubt.

Other years, the Dodgers have been worse; '86, '87, '92, '05; but it was easy to see why -- they were simply terrible or completely injury-ravaged. This year's team has impressive talent, in my estimation, but it has been used so brutally and inefficiently, that it's sapped nearly all of my enjoyment of watching the games.

To quote Chris Rock -- I'm not saying the fans should boo, but I understand. I don't think it's a case of fans being brittle as much as it is those fans, having endured nearly two decades of frustration, are voicing their displeasure at seeing another year flushed down the toilet.

49 I did not hear any boos when Randolph got injured. Maybe it happened somwehere, but I didn't hear it near me - and it certainly wasn't stadium-wide.

There would be no excuse for that. In fact, I would support jail time for people who boo (or cheer) injuries.

20
they were booing him because he got hurt? i was there with my brother and we couldn't figure that out. we were looking around for an usher with a popped beach ball or something -- there was nothing on the field that merited booing.

in fact, our best guess at the cause of the booing was the fact that derek lowe could have beaten out the throw to first if he had been running hard from the time he laid down the bunt. we figured it was a "come on derek, hustle" kind of a boo. no? doesn't make any sense to anyone else?

and i definitely caught the applause for biggio.

54 You kids get offa my lawn, er stadium.

I wonder how the all-you-can eat dealie thing has changed the behavior in the pavilion.

I'd like a to see some sort of study on sections of the stadium and where the booing/bad behavior comes from. I wonder if it's uniform throughout the stadium. I'd guess it isn't.

56 Well, it may as well be, because the Dodgers have become the Phillies in blue and white

If LA starts wearing powder-blue road unis with Dodger blue trim, it's over for me!

60 Think it aligns with where beer/booze sales are the heaviest?

58 "we figured it was a "come on derek, hustle" kind of a boo. no?"

That's an interesting idea. Could be. But it seems to me the booing really started in earnest about 10 seconds after Lowe got thrown out, when they stopped the game so the Astros trainer could run out on the field.

Of course, if they were booing Lowe, they were also booing an injured player (one who exacerbated his injury in Houston by running too hard to first base).

I'm not a Dodgers fan. I'm a Red Sox fan. But I'm also a baseball fan and earlier this year I drove out to LA and went to a game (I live in AZ now).

It sucked. Not the game. It was a good game (what I could see of it). And not the fans. I was actually impressed by the fans. The place was packed and loud and everyone was into the game. Being a Red Sox fan I can appreciate that passion (it's a far cry from going to a D-Backs game where nobody shows up unless the team gives away bobbleheads or lunchboxes, and even then everyone seems completely bored until the mascot jumps onto the top of the dugout and throws t-shirts into the crowd).

Anyway, here's what sucked. I was staying at a hotel by LAX. I left about an hour before game time and sat in traffic for most of that hour. It was miserable. I got there a few minutes after the game started but decided to splurge on good tickets anyway (or what I thought were good tickets). I spent $100 for a seat behind home plate. The lady in the ticket booth tried to talk me into a $125 seat. "A few rows up," the lady said. I figured how much better could they be. Besides, I was already spending a $100.

Boy was I wrong. I could not believe how far back that seat was. And there were still 3 or 4 more rows behind me. It was terrible. It felt like I was being robbed. After 6 innings I drove back to my hotel and watched the end of the game on TV (great finish—Martin hit a grand slam in the 10 inning to beat the Pirates).

I know I'm just one guy with one bad experience. But I'm guessing traffic and bad tickets are a regular experience for a lot of Dodgers fans. And with the team slumping, well, it's got to be a little frustrating.

It sounds like the Hernandez booing was a little uncalled for. But then, I've booed the Red Sox for less. It just shows you care. And that's a helluva lot better than sitting around waiting for the mascot to throw you a t-shirt.

I was in the Club level tonight and didn't hear much booing of Hernandez. It seems to be more moaning than anything. Whatever booing there was quickly subsided as the Saito entrance sequence unfolded.

It did seem a lot rowdier tonight though. Saw the paramedics haul a couple people off and security escorting some fans off down in the field level and the LF pavilion. A couple times, I had to double check with my buddy whether this was a Giant game.

I read an articled that in the greater Cincinnati area Little Leagues were eliminating the chatter by the opposing team of "hey batter, batter swing! because the parents want to protect the kids self esteem. Only positive chatter will be allowed and if only its directed towards your own team.

I see where Jon is heading with this point. I sure don't want to hurt a 43 yeard old pitcher's self esteem.

62 I don't have a clue, but I'd bet it's where the seats are cheapest. That may also have a correlation to beer consumption. But My bet is the cheap seats.

If so, raise ticket prices.

64 When you live here, you account for traffic; that's a way of life.

As for how "far back" your seats were, isn't Fenway a bit unique (other than maybe Wrigley) in its coziness? I'm content in a $25 above the press box, behind home seat, but maybe I'm ignorant. Heck, I spent my teens in the LF pavilion.

After 6 innings I drove back to my hotel SEE!!! It's not the LA people leaving early! ;)

60 "I'd like a to see some sort of study on sections of the stadium and where the booing/bad behavior comes from. I wonder if it's uniform throughout the stadium. I'd guess it isn't."

Yeah, it's not uniform. In all stadiums, in all sports, a disproportionate amount of the misbehavior comes from the cheap seats. My own theory is that people in the expensive box seats tend to be those who came upon the tickets as a freebie, or corporate types who are there mostly to be seen. In other words, people who don't actually care about the game and probably wouldn't ordinarily be there. They have no reason to boo because the game on the field is not why they're there. The cheaper the seat gets, the more likely the fan sitting in it is someone who cares about baseball.

Another reason, perhaps, is that people in the high-falutin' seats, particularly season ticket holders, have a community of people sitting around them who they see at every game, and they will be less likely to make asses of themselves knowing they have to face their neighbors next game. Also, they've made a greater financial investment that they'd be less likely to throw away. The drunk guy who paid $12 for his ticket has a lot less to lose by getting thrown out than the guy who paid $80 on Stubhub.

67 In my experience, boorish behavior and disposable income (for things like sports tickets) aren't necessarily correlated. I certainly have encountered some well-heeled jerks.

68 You can get some really terrible seats in Fenway, even though it's small. There are some lousy places to sit, and I've sat in most of them. The seats at the back of the right-center field bleachers are extraordinarily far away from the action, and they are down low enough that they don't offer the benefit of looking down on the playing field like most bleacher seats. And the seats on the baseline past first base are ridiculous. You're basically facing toward right center field, and you have to crane your neck at a 100 degree angle toward home plate for three hours if you want to see anything.

Enders: In all stadiums, in all sports, a disproportionate amount of the misbehavior comes from the cheap seats.

Dave: In my experience, boorish behavior and disposable income (for things like sports tickets) aren't necessarily correlated.

You both can't be right. I say best-out-of-seven shuffleboard match to decide the right answer. No booing. Dave goes first.

"I certainly have encountered some well-heeled jerks."

Yes, but I think the catch is, those well-heeled jerks are, on the whole, less invested in the fortunes of the Dodgers, and thus less likely to boo. (Which, you could argue, means they are even bigger jerks than the booers, since they don't care enough to even boo.)

So booing a players performance in the stands is classless, but running to the internet message boards and personally calling out the player and demanding their removal from the team is prim and proper fan behaviour? Would you rather have the friend that tells you when your messing up to your face or talks about your transgressions behind your back.

I am the same (rarely boo and have no qualms about complaining on the tubes), but I don't think this makes me a better fan. I too feel fans are to quick to boo and that booing is boorish and uncreative way of expressing your displeasure, but I expect this is the way a great many fans feel when we run Pierre, et al. out of town before the ink is even dry.

72 shuffleboard just how old do you think I am???

How about cribbage instead?

73 Probably.

71 Yes, but how bad can behind home plate in Fenway be? Single deck with pressbox above, right? Tiny, tiny foul area. In DS, back of the loge is getting a little far from home plate in comparison, yes?

74 "Would you rather have the friend that tells you when your messing up to your face or talks about your transgressions behind your back."

And by "behind your back," you of course mean out in public where anyone around the world can read it.

I see your point. But I don't think booing is analagous with criticizing someone on a message board. For one thing, the stuff on this message board is, one hopes, generally well thought out and has reasons to back it up -- not some primal expression of random displeasure. It's sort of the difference between taking out a newspaper ad criticizing the policies of your local congressman, or kicking the congressman in the nuts when you see him in the street. Apples/oranges.

74. Very good analogy.
vr, Xei

76 , second part: Yes, absolutely.

You mention the Fenway press box. The Fenway press box is actually the single most miserable vantagepoint from which I have ever watched a major league game. You literally cannot even see home plate. Whatever dunce designed it should be tarred, feathered, and branded with an "NY" logo on his derriere.

74 When has any person used anything but reasonable arguments for or against a player on the team? There is a big difference between talking about a player's OBP and yelling "sucks" or booing at a game.

One is written discussion online, the other is screaming like a jackass. They're a little bit different. And if things get bad here, I can just click a button and leave. When I buy a ticket to a game, I'm being forced to endure childish behavior, or I have to cut my financial losses and leave.

Again, I'm not against booing. It's fine. I just wish it was saved for times that deserve it.

I wonder if Greg Brock ever booed Greg Brock.

I went to Yankee Stadium in July and sat in the upper deck or what they call the Tier Box area. I bought my ticket online and it was a pretty good seat (for $65), behind home plate, just a few rows from the front and the way Yankee Stadium is laid out, the stands having a steeper slant to them, it was not bad.

Now Dodger Stadium, I have sat in the back row in the Loge Section behind home plate, which isn't that bad, from the field level, they are good too.

Tonight, we sat in Uecker seats but it was fine.

81 Dude, I was like eight years old, so no. But I've never booed at a game anyway. It always seemed kinda, whatever.

Booing seems like it takes a lot of energy. And I don't have that much to begin with.

80. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think he was referring to booing and not the screaming like a jackass etc... stuff you mentioned. Not every person that boos, is like the person that you are describing.
vr, Xei

84 And yet, the people who criticize Frank McCourt on this site somehow managed to refrain from booing him at Dodger Stadium on DT Day.

84 I find them one in the same. At this stage, we've made our points. I guess we just don't agree. Nothing personal Xei, as always.

Last year, I went to my first USC home game since Pete Carroll became the coach of the team.

I was sitting amongst the most die-hard fans but my guess is that some have just come on board during their recent run of unheard success.

As John David Booty's passes were being tipped at the line of scrimmage or in one bad throw, returned for a touchdown, you'd thought this team had lost its last 12 games by listening to some of their fans in my area. It was if, they had never lived through the dark times otherwise known as BPC (Before Pete Carroll).

Talking to my host on the drive homw, he told me how he wanted to stand up and tell them that they need to shut up and think about all their recent success.

Again, if fans want to boo, its their choice, I don't think it is an indictment of Dodger management or even a specific player, I just think unfortunately sometimes many of us feel that we have some right to be heard and often that leads to results like booing.

85 Yeah. but some and you know who you are, were ready to boo the motion detector.

I've noticed a big drop in the decorum in the upper levels of Dodger Stadium. I remember going as a kid and not hearing anything nasty. The last few years, I would go to a game against the Cardinals with a friend who roots for the Cardinals - she (a 5'5" 110 lb girl) would be heckled if left alone (strangely, when the 6'1" 250 lb guy wearing a Dodgers hat was around, she wouldn't be bothered).

I've gotten to the point where I won't go to a game if it means sitting in the cheap seats.

I'm rather apathetic to booing, I think it has it's place in sports, but yelling at a fan of the other team is just beyond stupid. If they use to have a zero tolerance policy back in the O'Malley days, I say go back to it, if not, take a look at what the Yankees do (I can't believe I just wrote that)

Jon, careful with this one:

"And I think it's perfectly reasonable to judge people on actions that by definition are a judgment of other people."

So, you are conceding that I can now stand in judgment of you as you are already standing in judgment of some others? Jon, sometimes people say more than they realize and I think that this is one of those times. I will otherwise save my judgment of your judgment for another day.

I agree with Xei that this is a matter of aesthetic preferences, but not that it doesn't matter. Aesthetics matter. Does anybody find it super-pleasant to sit next to some lout, baying at the bloody moon? What's so terrific about making barn yard noises? And how did anybody's right to be obnoxious come up? What difference does that make?

Also, how can you object to profanity but not booing? What's so special about profanity?

85. Ok, I give up. Moving on...
Xei

91 This type of intellectual snobbery doesn't play well in Peoria. Take it down a notch, Shimmin.

If I didn't know better, I'd say you read Foreign Affairs and The Atlantic and Vanity Fair and what not. Your kind isn't welcome at the ball yard. It's for the regular folk. We boo here. It's our right.

So sell your wares someplace else, Frenchy.

ERIC ENDERS: I think the guy who paid $80 through StubHub is more likely to get throw out than the guy who paid $12. If you'd been raped you'd be pissed, too.

EL LAY DAVE: If everyone is so content with the traffic how come all the road rage? And, yeah, Fenway is small but like ERIC ENDERS mentioned there are some awful seats there, too.

I guess what bothers me is not knowing what seats suck (for how much you pay) and what seats are good (good price, good view). The sad thing is the teams know. I took a tour of Petco recently and the guide came right out, pointed to some seats and said they were the worst seats in the house. Somebody needs to write a blog with that info.

94 Okay, those baseline box seats, not worth it since you sit the whole game with your head turned.

But seriously, I'm biased because this is wear my seats are but Infield Reserve, behind home plate (Sections 1-10, I believe, Rows N and above (keep you in the shade for day games) and for the advanced price of 25-26 bucks, not a bad deal. Park in the Sunset lot and its one stairwell to the gate.

Field Level from the bases (1st and 3rd) are not too bad either, I like Loge Sections too from that general area.

But heck, I've sat in the Top Deck behind home plate and thought they were fine.

I think many of us have our favorite spots and best places to watch a game at Dodger Stadium, some could even give traffic tips, we are a pretty good group for that kind of information.

Vanity Fair is no good. It literally stinks. If I were ever introduced to the person who came up with the idea of putting perfume ads in magazines, I'd boo him.

You should just pour perfume on him. (Or her. Perfume in a magazine -- you think a guy came up with that?)

96 Yeah, like you don't read Vanity Fair. Like you don't read The New Yorker. Like you aren't part of the problem, with your opinions and calls for decorum and Saul Bellow anecdotes and disdain for booing. You're not fooling anybody, Shimmin.

Go watch golf or tennis. Expecting basic human decency is not conducive with baseball. We boo at this level, son. Stop trying to make baseball like other sports. We approve of boorish behavior here. And don't try to change it.

Booing is my right. It may be childish, but it's my right. And that's really what it's all about.

We need more singing in the grounds.

My Nan had a dog named Pierre
scrappy as a wild hare
but down at the park
he refused to take a walk
so we benched him for Ethier

The universal New Yorker cartoon caption postulate (contains a naughty word, over and over):

http://tinyurl.com/8nasm

98 So, we've sunken to insulting the ancient Greeks. Socrates probably booed the poor performance by that thespian, just as did most everyone else in attendance that night. Please see:

http://www.slate.com/id/2141597/

First time I've ever heard Socrates described as "boorish" and "childish". And since when was "civic duty" equated with "boorish" and "childish"?

101 The Greeks supported booing. The Greeks gave us democracy and philosophy. Therefore, booing is good. Interesting theory.

Maybe, and I'm just spitballing here, they were right about some things, wrong about other things.

Locke defended liberty at birth. Locke also defended the slave trade. Maybe he was both right and wrong.

Socrates was brilliant. Doesn't make boorish behavior acceptable. Doesn't make your point. But I appreciate the attempt.

102- I don't think you've thought this through. You just rejected a perfectly good basis for defending pederasty. I mean, I don't know you well, but you are a single, male teacher. . .

103 Trust me, I thought long and hard about bringing that up. In the end, I refrained. Thanks for picking up the slack.

I support the dialectic...Therefore, I support...well...you know...Shenanigans.

102 The judgment that I was saving for another day is rather simple here, to wit, 9 of 10 booing weren't communicating the idea that Roberto was some lesser human when he walked those two souls. "Boorish" and "childish", on the other hand, tend to communicate that message. The thespian booed on the stage that night wasn't otherwise expelled and shipped off to Sparta. He and she remained valued members of the community, just like Roberto [it is only his walking the two souls that we are displeased with and that's as far as it goes]. Would you otherwise prefer that the crowd chant in unison after each walk, That was not acceptable and we are displeased with you right now? That's what 9 of the 10 boos were saying. And somehow, I can't help but think that, if asked, Roberto himself would say that if he had been sitting where you were, that he would have been booing him too.

To the Red Sox fan...you got rooked.

Tuesday I sat in some seats at field level right behind home plate that my dad won in a raffle (face value $60) and they were quite possibly the best seats I could have asked for. The sight lines were amazing, I could tell whether every pitch was a ball or a strike, and I had a great view of Greg Oden's harem. It sucks that the ticket sales folks suckered you into the "sports book" seats, but I'll chalk that one up to your inexperience more than the normal value per seat equation.

As for booing...I've never been much of a fan unless it's someone dogging it or someone who is performing so poorly that perhaps booing will finally get them removed from the game (Tomko is the poster boy for this).

I went to Wednesday night's game with my dad and got a kick out of when a beach ball landed in his lap and he proceeded to deflate it without giving a crap about the boos he received. While I have the same mentality, I'm more the type to just get it out of my face to avoid any confrontation and let the ushers ultimately deal with it. It struck me as somewhat ironic that the dude in front of us decked out in Dodgers gear let out an emphatic "you suck!" to my dad after the deflation.

Would you otherwise prefer that the crowd chant in unison after each walk, That was not acceptable and we are displeased with you right now?

Yes

And somehow, I can't help but think that, if asked, Roberto himself would say that if he had been sitting where you were, that he would have been booing him too.

And he would be wrong. As you are. Booing is the most primitive form of protest. The intellectual equivalent of slinging feces at the attacker. Boo when a terrible player makes a mistake. Boo when a player flips the bird at the crowd. But that's not what we're dealing with. Dodger fans now feel like they have to boo anything and everything. And I find it boorish. You don't. It's a real shame we don't agree, but that's life. Scream and boo and do whatever you'd like. That's fine. But don't get mad when others judge you as childish, boorish buffoons. Booing is your right. Good for you. But don't get mad when others think you should grow up.

Standing up and booing is boorish behavior. Others think it's their right as fans. I guess we simply agree to disagree.

Oh, and I've become pretty disgusted with Dodger fan behavior myself from my trips to the stadium and/or the dodgers.com message board. It's reassuring knowing that not only are there plenty of knowledgeable Dodger fans on this blog, but that since there are an average of 40,000 fans at a game that there are still enough good fans to outweigh the crappy ones (compared to other teams).

What most disturbs me is how quick many fans are to viciously spew hatred about nonsensical things. At Tuesday night's game (when I was sitting in expensive seats) I was subjected to some drunk fan rambling about how Grady always leaves his starters in too long, using Tomko as an example. Of course, what he failed to factor in was that Tomko had been pitching well (1 run through 5 innings) and that the bullpen had been worked hard the two days before. I would've loved to have shot back with those facts, but it probably would have ended up with a shoving match and ultimately me getting kicked out just for being a part of it.

BHSPORTSGUY: thanks for the tips. i need to copy and paste that somewhere.

OVERKILL94: yeah. i know. i probably should mention my car got dented by a hit-and-run driver while in the hands of the hotel valet. bad weekend all around...your dad deserves a medal for putting an end to that nonsense.

109 Bummer man, my car (luckily it's a company car) has encountered more dings and scratches than it deserves by being parked in the street for a couple years.

What was funny about the beach ball incident was that about 10 minutes later another beach ball landed next to one of the guys sitting near us (who looked like he'd never been to a game in his life) and he proceeded to toss it straight to the usher. Maybe he just plain didn't know what to do with it, but maybe my dad changed one person's perspective on how to view a baseball game. Just maybe...

So ya'
Thought ya'
Might like to
Go to the show

To feel the warm thrill of confusion
That space cadet glow

Tell me is something eluding you sunshine?
Is this not what you expected to see?
We're gonna find out where you folks really stand.

There's one in the spotlight, he don't look right to me,
Get him up against the wall!
There's one smoking a joint,
And another with spots!
If I had my way,
I'd have all of you shot!

Tonight Vin said that Saito is now one of 4 Dodger pitchers to reach 30 saves (the others beiing Gagne, Worrell and JShaw).
--------------
When did the a save as a statistic come into effect ? I imagine that it was sometime in the late 1970s or early 1980s. Obviously it was after 1974, because Mike Marshall (not the outfielder)would have most certainly had over 30 saves during his Cy Young award winning season.
Also well before MM, I have childhood memories of Jim Brewer pitching in seemingly every other game for years on end.

112 Steve Howe never got to 30 saves with LA, and yet in my memory, he played the same kind of role with the Dodgers that Gagne and Saito have played -- the rarely unsuccessful, door-slammin' closer.

List of players who have cleared waivers.

http://tinyurl.com/33u288

"you wanna save humanity, but it's people that you just can't stand"

Whenever I think of John Lennon, I think of that part in the Imagine documentary, where some guy had broken onto his estate grounds and, ya know, the security guys had him, and they're all asking him what he was trying to do and Lennon (who obviously, in hindsight, had the most to fear) just cuts straight through all that and sees the guy as a human being and asks him if he's hungry.

Anyway, that's my thoughts after reading all this.

112
The save became an official stat in 1969 although they have been retroactively scored for pitchers going back to the 19th century.

Steve Howe may not have saved 30 but he did get the save that won a world series. Oh, and he got Frank Robinson to look foolish.

This might be the first time I can remember thinking Scot Boras is good for a player and it involves Abreu. I think the Dodgers should have kept both Kemp and Abreu on the MLB roster when they were hurt and looked cheap and onesided, win - lose, and unlikeable by putting them back on the Vegas roster.

In 1974, Marshall had 21 saves in 34 save opportunities.

I am constantly surprised at the vitriol spewed at former Dodgers upon their return to DS. Fans appear to think that by ripping a former player it makes them a better fan. It does not matter whether it is Garry Sheffield who threatened to quit or Paul LoDuca who wept when he was traded, or Mike Piazza who held out for a $100M, everyone gets the same ignorant treatment. People seem to think that if the player left they must be a traitor regardless of how or why they left. I will incur your wrath with this statement: but if I had to boo someone, I would boo Gagne before LoDuca. I loved Gagne as much as anyone but in the end he told us how much he loved LA and wanted to stay. He said he would give us a hometown discount and he calls the shots. But in the end he left for the money and/or because he didn't want to be a set up guy. (What's he doing now?) LoDuca may be a drama queen but he would have stayed here forever if allowed. This isn't suggesting knocking "the trade" or want to keep LoDuca. Clearly, it was a great move. I'm just saying there is no reason to boo Lo Duca or any other former player. (Its close, but even Jason Phillips is not an exception to this rule).

(2 disclaimers on the above: (1) While LoDuca did not used to get booed he does now. This is because some former players get a pass the first few times they come back to DS. Gagne would be cheered the first few times and then eventually the boos would set in. (2) Its always ok to boo Gary Sheffield. Ok not really, but it is acceptable, even encouraged, if he has a clutch or extra base hit against the Dodgers.)

Mike Marshall's chances at 30 saves in 1974 were hurt by the fact that he had a W-L record of 15-12. When you're pitching that much and getting that many decisions, it's harder to get saves.

Think Boo...?

I would just as soon see a preview of the Future Dodgers this year, even if it means finishing far out of contention. With Schmidt and Wolf on the roster, the Dodgers were the favorites. Without them, I do not think they can make it -- this year.

Like a lot of posters here, I would be pleased to watch a line-up of Martin, Loney, Abreu, Hu, LaRoche, Kemp, Ethier, and Young for the remainder of the season.

As much as I like our youngsters, I have to concede that not all of them will succeed. And, even if they do, the random consellation of their talents might not be sufficient to build a championship club.

For 08', we need at least one power hitter and another starting pitcher. Is it reasonable to assume that we can obtain these parts on the free agent market and not have to resort to trading ANY of our prospects?

I don't think so. Therefore, I would trade LaRoche, Bills, Young, and Ethier for Cabrera and Willis or for Dunn and Harang or the equivalent.

I suspect that this would be considered heretical. Tell me why.

123 Would you keep Randy Wolf for $9.0 million next year or buy him out for $500k?

Interesting tidbit in the LA Times' Dodger notes:
"The team has made approximately 40 waiver claims in the last three weeks, he said, but the players he was interested in either had their waivers withdrawn or were claimed by other teams."

Also:
"Left-hander Hong-Chih Kuo, on the disabled list since June 30 because of an inflamed shoulder, has begun throwing again and left-hander Randy Wolf, out since July 4 because of a sore shoulder, is expected to begin throwing again on the trip that begins Tuesday in Philadelphia."

"I'm not that strong-a-booer"

Dodger Jack I don't think it would be a problem to most dodger fans, particularily the one here if we traded some kids for a superstar like player in his prime. I don't think Adam Dunn should apply, but that's my opinion, but Miggy..Yes.

For me, I don't think I would trade Billingsley for anyone...

I would buy Wolf out. He has not thrown 200 IP since 2003 and no reason to expect him to do it in 2008

Also, Brian K in the Times' BlueNotes blog:
Eric Stults will start tomorrow night against Colorado. While Little wouldn't say who would be sent out to make room, Eric Hull was certainly packing up his stuff like a guy who didn't expect to be here on Friday.

So there we go.

When Wolf was healthy and on, we were rolling. First, we have to determine whether he is healthy enough to pitch next season or if he might become Schmidt Redux. We also have to ask, if he is healthy, whether an equivalent lefthander could be obtained for $9m. I see no lefthanded starter in our farm system who could replace him in the near term. Stults? Nope. Elbert? His health is in question and he has served no time in AAA. Kershaw? Not enough experience.

123-I would consider it heretical in part because Willis isn't half the pitcher Billingsley is already. However we solve our pitching shortage, we won't do it by dealing Billingsley. I suspect even Colletti knows this.

As for the bat, well, sure. Not all of our young players will make it. I love Ethier, and would prefer to keep him, yet I strongly suspect he'll be dealt at some point. We need to upgrade somewhere, and alas, at the outfield spot we most need the upgrade, we're stuck with a long-term contract, and at least one more year of Pierre. Not more, if there is a God.

I start to worry about LaRoche's injury history. It's really the only thing about him that does concern me, so I can imagine him being dealt too, and our looking to upgrade at 3rd base.

Oops. Left out Kuo. But in his case also, health is a question.

Jason, I appreciate your comments re Dunn/Cabrera. I think I would take Harang over Willis but would love to have either one.

I hear Zambrano just signed a 5 year deal. Anybody know how much he got?

I would take Billingsley over either Harang or Willis at this point. Bills will just get better and better while the other two are either already on or about to hit the steep downward slopes of their careers. Pass. Cabrera's the only one I'd trade good players for.

132 Check the Griddle.

Basically: $a lot.

I am afraid that we would have to part with at least one pitcher, probably a prospect, to obtain the likes of a Cabrera. I suspect that the Fish would ask for Bills first. Assuming that we would want to keep Kershaw out of the discussion, whom does that leave?

If Zambrano got that much $$$, how much is Santana going to get next year?

136 22 million per year? 25 mil per year?

I'm guessing 5/125.

137- Will Frank put up that kind of cash and raise parking to $20?

Am I the only one who thought that Lowe had the chance to go for the complete game shutout? By the 8th he had a great pitchcount (around 75 or 80 right?), was still pitching strong, hadn't allowed a runner in scoring position, and had held the Astros to four hits. The Dodgers could have really used the morale boost of such a feat and the bullpen certainly could have used the rest.

Am I crazy or is Grady Little just incapable of properly managing pitchers? Unless I'm missing something, I really think Lowe should have been given the chance...the team sure as heck could have used it, the fans could have used it, and Saito deserved the rest. Oh, and Hernandez may not have been booed simply because he let up the run but because (despite the milestone), every time he comes out he starts to give up the lead. Maybe 43 is too old to be out there?

I don't believe the booing is that big of a deal. This is a big crowd of people, and people in crowds do things they wouldn't normally do in an intimate setting.

The emotionals are high, and many people become simple minded, and let their emotions go: Cheer good, boo bad.

I'd rather be a part of an emotional crowd than an indifferent one.

Also, the fact of one playoff victory since 1988, and now a mid-season tank, may cause additional emotional eruptions, like, "Hernandez, don't blow this thing!" (it was a bad enough performance that they had to bring in Saito after a 6-0 lead into the 9th).

What was more important: Hernandez in game 1,000 (a handful as a Dodger), or nailing down the ninth, giving Saito a night of rest?

Frustration venting - that's all it is (not accounting for the "screamers" and "throwers", and other assorted truly non-acceptable behaviors).

111 Who let all this riff-raff into the stadium?

That may be all of that song that can be safely uttered in DT comments, though.

139 - I think Lowe's hip was a factor - they wanted him to git while the gittin' was good.

New post up top.

51 I don't think it's completely anti-booing. It just seems like it's increasing, and happening at really inappropriate times.

Last time I was at Dodger Stadium, it seemed like the loudest booing was reserved for when the usher took a beach ball out of commission in the stands. Then, a loud mouthed guy near us started cussing about the usher's action, which had nothing to do with the game. That was unpleasant.

With Zambrano's resigning, the Dodgers have to bring Wolf back. When the best available pitchers are over 40 (Glavine and Schilling) it's a sign the class is completely bare.

If you assume teams will pick up some obvious options, Wolf is probably the fourth or fifth best available pitcher this offseason.

79 Whatever dunce designed it should be tarred, feathered, and branded with an "NY" logo on his derriere.

A couple nights ago, I was out watering my ferns, when one of my neighbors initially accused me of being a Yankees fan! This was doubly strange, since I was wearing my blue wool "LA" Dodgers cap at the time, standing outside my blue house, in blue jeans, with a blue t-shirt on....

I only boo beachball throwers. They deserve it, dadgummit!