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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
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Maddux Matters
2007-08-27 09:45
by Jon Weisman

Leading off my post at's Fungoes today, I speculate what a difference it made in the playoff race for the Dodgers when Greg Maddux went from Los Angeles to San Diego. (My father provided the inspiration for this idea.)

There might be all kinds of reasons why the San Diego Padres are 3 ½ games ahead of the Los Angeles Dodgers in the wild-card race, but perhaps this is the simplest: Greg Maddux.

At the end of last season, the Dodgers chose not to resign the future Hall of Famer. In his place, they picked up Randy Wolf for $8 million (including $500,000 if they buy out his 2008 option), as well as offering arbitration to Mark Hendrickson instead of cutting him loose and negotiating a $2.925 million one-year deal -- even though there wasn't a spot for Hendrickson in the starting rotation.

The Padres grabbed Maddux, locking him in for $10 million for 2007, plus an option for 2008 that could cost San Diego from $6 million $11 million, according to Cot's Baseball Contracts.

Perhaps San Diego will regret the deal in 2008, but as far as '07 is concerned, the Padres got Maddux for less than what the Dodgers spent on Wolf and Hendrickson. And what was the result?

Maddux has already thrown 161 2/3 innings while leading San Diego in games started with 27, with an ERA of 3.90. His Value Over Replacement Player, according to Baseball Prospectus, is 32.0.

Wolf's ERA swelled to 4.73 over 18 starts for the Dodgers before going out of the rotation for good with shoulder problems, and he accumulated a VORP of 11.4. Hendrickson, who began the season in the bullpen, has gone in and out of the rotation, making 15 starts in 30 appearances with an ERA of 5.49 and a VORP of 4.6. In short, the two pitchers combined have so far been barely half as good as one Greg Maddux, and the gap is almost certain to increase over the season's final month. ...

* * *

It's time to offer your opinion on the defensive abilities of the Dodgers at Tangotiger's 2007 Scouting Report by the Fans for the Fans.

  • Here is a link to the Dodger ballot.

  • Here is a link to the instructions.

    Key points: A ranking of average should refer not to an average player at his particular position, but an average player at any position. And don't look at any fielding statistics - just rely on what you've observed.

  • Comments (150)
    Show/Hide Comments 1-50
    2007-08-27 10:09:18
    1.   JoeyP
    The Padres are my pick to make it to the World Series with Young, Peavy, Maddux in a short series.

    A lot of that depends on Young's health, but the Padres have more than enough offense now with Bradley, Ensberg, added to the rest of their core.

    With the Rockies improvement (Holiday, Hawpe, Helton, Tulowitski, Atkins) can all hammer the ball: The Dodgers are going to need to improve themselves in the off-season or 4th place might be in the offing for next year too.

    2007-08-27 10:11:23
    2.   D4P
    I speculate what a difference it made in the playoff race for the Dodgers when Greg Maddux went from Los Angeles to San Diego

    Next up: Jon speculates what a difference it made in the playoff race for the Dodgers when David Wells went from San Diego to Los Angeles.

    2007-08-27 10:14:32
    3.   LogikReader
    I always wondered that myself: Why didn't NedCo get Maddux to re-sign?

    Here on DT folks have said to me that it has to do with NedCo's ongoing vendetta on Scott Boras. While admirable (on principle), this seems to have gotten in the way of a potentially solid 1/5 of the rotation. Ah well.

    Bear in mind though, not signing Maddux may have helped instill Chad Billingsley into the rotation, but I honestly wouldn't know.

    2007-08-27 10:15:47
    4.   Joshua Worley
    2 ---

    The Padres should have just made Wells rest for three weeks instead of cutting him loose. ;)


    I don't know if I'll get around to the defensive survey, but if I do I know I'll be raving about Furcal's arm.

    2007-08-27 10:17:03
    5.   Jon Weisman
    2 - I guess you didn't read to the end ...
    2007-08-27 10:18:25
    6.   D4P
    I don't think it was completely unreasonable to conclude prior to the 2007 season that Maddux wouldn't be worth $10 million in 2007. For one thing, the guy seemed to top out at around 6 innings and 80 pitches.
    2007-08-27 10:19:51
    7.   D4P
    Guess correctly you did.
    2007-08-27 10:25:10
    8.   Jon Weisman
    6 - Sure, but it depends on what you mean by "worth" and what you planned to do with the $10 million.
    2007-08-27 10:26:05
    9.   LogikReader
    It really is a long shot to consider the Dodgers for a WC spot. Whoever did that study (maybe it was Jon) that suggested "overcoming even a TWO game deficit with two months to go is a reach" has a point.

    So yes, like many here on DT, what was the use of getting all these Radio Shack parts in a desperate attempt to nab that spot? To placate the veterans? I think the best thing for the team to do right now is give every game their best shot and not worry about the other teams.

    2007-08-27 10:26:15
    10.   bhsportsguy
    Somehow, I get the feeling that keeping San Diego from having Maddux was probably more valuable than actually having him on the Dodgers.

    The other issue with Maddux and the Padres is that as good as the Padres' bullpen has been, there are 2 reasons why the Padres are not leading the West, one is their inconsistent offense, the second is that they constantly have to go their pen and that their relievers outside of Bell and Hoffman have been very inconsistent.

    Some get tired of Charley Steiner bringing up this stat but lets compare the Padres, D-Backs and Dodgers on their record when they lead after 6 innings.

    Dodgers 54-3
    D-Backs 52-6
    Padres 48-11

    To put San Diego's record in perspective, the Royals and the Pirates are 45-8 and 44-8, respectively when they lead after 6 innings.

    2007-08-27 10:27:07
    11.   LogikReader
    " many here have said," I meant to say
    2007-08-27 10:27:38
    12.   D4P
    Sure, but it depends on what you mean by "worth" and what you planned to do with the $10 million

    Agreed. I'm not saying Wolf and Hendrickson have proven a better use of the money, as they clearly haven't. I'm just distinguishing between "Should we spend $10 million on Maddux or on Wolf/Hendrickson" and "Should we resign Maddux for $10 million?"

    2007-08-27 10:31:11
    13.   Joshua Worley
    10 million for Maddux? Feh!

    I think that money would be better spend cloning Kyle Blair nine times and then signing all 10 Kyle Blairs. That would give the Dodgers some amazing minor league pitching depth, as well as unparalleled depth in Kyle Blairs.

    2007-08-27 10:33:16
    14.   jasonungar07
    "Well, well, well," says Boras, cackling and looking over at Stillwell, enjoying a moment of what might be considered payback. "J.D. Drew would've caught that ball," he says confidently, leaving no doubt that he has not forgotten the off-season controversy. "You just don't let Greg Maddux leave your building, and you sign J.D. Drew," he says.

    Let's kick it up a notch. Would we have been better off with Maddux and Drew vs Pierre and Wolf/Hendu

    2007-08-27 10:34:22
    15.   bhsportsguy
    1 Morgan Ensberg? He hasn't played in a week and after his first game, hasn't done much at all to show that Houston made a mistake by releasing him.

    San Diego needs to take 3 out of 4 against the D-Backs because winning the division gives them their best chance to advance, so they will need to play as many game as possible at Petco.

    Playing at Petco is a problem for San Diego because while they pitch much better at home (see Young and Maddux), their offense, which isn't great to begin with, really suffers at home.

    2007-08-27 10:35:16
    16.   mountainmover
    Hindsight is 20/20 and I would rather have Maddux over Wolf & Hendrickson & Tomko, but I do wonder how Maddux would have pitched if he wasn't in that large canyon in SD. He has a 3.28 ERA at home, but 4.50 on the road. Something to ponder...
    2007-08-27 10:40:03
    17.   Wilbert Robinson
    10 Somehow, I get the feeling that keeping San Diego from having Maddux was probably more valuable than actually having him on the Dodgers

    Yes but we had to use some of that money to make sure the Giants didn't get Juan Pierre. Oh wait I forgot I'm on the positive vibes for Juan Pierre train. ummmm....Juan Pierre has an .379 OBP in August! Go Pierre!

    2007-08-27 10:41:17
    18.   JoeyP
    I dont really see an advantage in being either the Wild Card team or winning the division, especially since its not as if the Mets are a juggernaut.

    THe Padres home/away records are nearly identical also.

    2007-08-27 10:43:45
    19.   Jon Weisman
    16 - Would you take a 4.50 ERA in the starting rotation slot that Wolf started the season with?

    I wasn't on this in March, either, probably because I wouldn't have wanted to give Maddux two years. I think that's the argument against signing him. I think in a straight-up comparison with Randy Wolf, if it were one-year contracts, I would have wanted Maddux. I did argue from the get-go that Hendrickson should have been non-tendered.

    2007-08-27 10:43:54
    20.   jasonungar07
    It seems the dodgers are being awful quiet on Nomar. Is there any news regarding him at all? I wasn't around much this weekend. And gosh, Kent is a man. I didn't see that until seeing highlights and wow, crazy. Any news on him at all?
    2007-08-27 10:44:39
    21.   Jon Weisman
    20 - There was news over the weekend saying that Nomar couldn't run at full strength.
    2007-08-27 10:44:59
    22.   bhsportsguy
    14 If VORP is supposed to be an objective measurement, Juan Pierre's 9.7 is not great but its a lot better than J.D. Drew's 5.5.

    Also, while Drew has a higher OPS than Pierre(though at .756, its the lowest of his career), he trails Ethier, Kemp and Gonzalez.

    2007-08-27 10:45:06
    23.   Wilbert Robinson
    18 I think the advantage would be in playing the winner of NL Central since all the teams vying for it are around .500.
    2007-08-27 10:47:26
    24.   D4P
    Fans of attractive female tennis players might want to check out Julia Goerges, Justine Henin's opponent on USA network right now.
    2007-08-27 10:47:28
    25.   bhsportsguy
    20 Grady said that he thinks Kent could play tonight, we shall see.
    2007-08-27 10:47:33
    26.   regfairfield
    3 Because signing a homer prone, 41 year old who doesn't strike anyone out for likely at least two years would be a questionable decision at best.

    PETCO and the Padres defense are keeping Maddux's numbers reasonable. If you put that many balls in play for the Dodgers, things would look much worse.

    2007-08-27 10:48:33
    27.   xaphor
    10 . keeping San Diego from having Maddux was probably more valuable than actually having him on the Dodgers.

    If the Dodgers do not feel he is worth 10 million with our payroll, then SD spending that much on him with their limited financial considerations can only be looked at as a win for us. The only real question is did the Dodgers undervalue Maddux or more aptly, did we waste the "Maddux" money on non-impact players.

    2007-08-27 10:51:04
    28.   still bevens
    20 The LA Times also mentioned that he won't be activated until the first week in September at the earliest.
    2007-08-27 10:51:51
    29.   blue22
    26 - Correct me if I'm wrong, but offering arbitration to Maddux would've resulted in only a one-year deal, or draft picks should he have refused the offer.
    2007-08-27 10:54:11
    30.   regfairfield
    29 This is true, but after the year he had he probably would have gotten 12 million in arbitration.

    Considering how the off season turned out, I might say this would have been a good idea, but it's debatable.

    2007-08-27 10:56:57
    31.   JoeyP
    Did Wolf/Hendrickson have a greater 1yr upside than Greg Maddux?


    A better thing idea have been to spend the 10mils on someone better than all 3.

    2007-08-27 11:00:28
    32.   regfairfield
    31 Hendrickson didn't, but I don't see why Wolf wouldn't.

    The only thing Maddux can do is throw strikes. Without the park and defense behind him, he's nothing.

    2007-08-27 11:03:28
    33.   Eric Enders
    OK, here comes the part where I defend the nincompoop who runs this team. A two-year deal for a 41-year old pitcher is freaking nuts. The fact that Maddux pitched decently during the first year does not change that.

    I was glad Colletti didn't offer him a two-year deal and I still am, even though he's pitched better than I thought he would. I do think we should have offered him arbitration. Although, wasn't that a timing issue? -- i.e., by the time Maddux decided whether to accept or reject arb, the fallback options like Wolf might have already been scooped up by other teams.

    2007-08-27 11:04:10
    34.   bhsportsguy
    31 Gil Meche, Jason Marquis, Jeff Suppan, not a lot of choices and those guys got multi-year deals.

    The owners and the players by having labor peace and high revenues may have created a market that actually results in players staying with their teams rather than test the market. Sure you will see the A-Rods and Andruw Jones go out to see what is available but you are also going to be left with some pretty mediorce players getting lots of one-year deals.

    Player development will be key as well as the Rule V draft. I think as teams realize that the days of getting the big free agent becomes a less likely avenue to improve your team, it is more likely they will go for one-year deals and looking more internal than external for improving and maintaining their ball clubs.

    2007-08-27 11:05:29
    35.   Xeifrank
    I don't have a problem with having not signed Maddux. Sure, now that we know what we know, I wish we'd have signed him. But who knew that both Schmidt and Guo would be out for almost all of the year and that Wolf who was a decent gamble on a 5th starter spot would also go down. We had plenty of starting pitching depth going into the season. Penny, Lowe, Schmidt, Guo, Wolf, Billingsley with Tomko/Hendrickson/Houlton ready for emergency service. We just had some terrible luck with injuries. Sure, you can argue that we shouldn't have such a reliance on pitchers with past injury problems... but we did, and most teams do.
    Oh well... I point most of my ire at what was going on during the season with the positional players, but that horse has been kicked around a few times.
    vr, Xei
    2007-08-27 11:05:30
    36.   Eric Enders
    32 Yeah, the defense thing is a big point. Maddux strikes nobody out and relies entirely on his defense. If he were on the Dodgers this year and pitched exactly the same way, his ERA would be 4.60 and people would be complaining about him instead of clamoring for him.
    2007-08-27 11:09:23
    37.   D4P
    We just had some terrible luck with injuries

    The word "terrible" seems extreme to me. It's not as if the injury problems of Guo and Wolf came out of nowhere. Plus, Schmidt is not primavera poultry.

    2007-08-27 11:09:47
    38.   Eric Enders
    34 The Rule 5 draft has been rendered completely irrelevant by the extra year of protection afforded by the new CBA. They might as well eliminate the thing; nobody will ever get a meaningful player from it again.
    2007-08-27 11:11:09
    39.   Eric Enders
    I don't think we've had terrible luck with injuries, except for Nomar. For most of the year, the team would have been helped immensely if he'd gotten hurt, and he didn't. Then at the one time when an injury would actually hurt the team, he gets hurt.
    2007-08-27 11:12:42
    40.   ToyCannon
    I don't think SD makes the playoffs much less the World Series.

    I'm quite happy that they are the team we are chasing, not that I'm sold on our team but SD is a team we can chase down.

    2007-08-27 11:14:08
    41.   Xeifrank
    Losing Schmidt, Guo and Wolf to injuries is atleast "terrible", if not "terrible luck".
    Semantics. :)
    vr, Xei
    2007-08-27 11:14:24
    42.   jasonungar07
    Thanks for the updates guys.
    2007-08-27 11:15:46
    43.   underdog
    37 "Plus, Schmidt is not primavera poultry."

    Why did that make me hungry?

    2007-08-27 11:15:51
    44.   Reddog
    I agree with the earlier post that we would be better off spending $10 million on 10 Kyle Blairs. We have too many aging vets as it is.

    I am now seeing this season as one where we are both too old, and too young to win. But then again, I think in two years we may have a great young team that will make us a top team for years to come.

    2007-08-27 11:16:09
    45.   D4P
    BaseballProspectus disagrees with 40 .

    Playoff Odds Report (which are actually playoff probabilities, but who's counting...)

    Mets: 97%
    Diamondbacks: 71%
    Padres: 59%
    Brewers: 26%
    Dodgers: 23%

    2007-08-27 11:17:02
    46.   Xeifrank
    OT, don't forget there is a total eclipse of the moon after midnight. vr, Xei
    Aug 28th
    Partial eclipse begins @ 1:51am
    Total eclipse begins @ 2:52am
    Total eclipse ends @ 4:23am
    Partial eclipse end @ 5:24am
    2007-08-27 11:18:17
    47.   Xeifrank
    44. If only we could have 10 first round draft picks. vr, Xei
    2007-08-27 11:18:48
    48.   ssjames
    When considering injuries another one that has to be taken into account is Elbert's injury. Had he not been injured this year there is an extremely good chance that he would have been pitching for the major league club right now. If we were sporting a rotation of Penny, Lowe, Bills, Elbert and Stults who wouldn't be more comfortable?
    2007-08-27 11:21:20
    49.   ToyCannon
    A little 7 game winning streak would do wonders to those numbers.
    2007-08-27 11:24:16
    50.   Greg Brock
    If we had ten Kyle Blairs, would they all wear the same number? Or do we consider them independent and wholly individual Kyle Blairs.

    If the latter, what do we do about the names on the jerseys? Roman numerals?

    Show/Hide Comments 51-100
    2007-08-27 11:24:18
    51.   Joshua Worley
    I have to disagree with the assessment of Maddux this year.

    Yes, he has a very low K rate. He also has, by far, the lowest walk rate in the league among qualified pitchers. has him at 1.2 walks per game. The next best qualified NL pitchers are at 2.1 walks per game.

    Maddux is allowing a 0.294 batting average on balls in play. This is pretty average, isn't it? Penny is allowing a 0.289 BABIP, in comparison. I find it hard to believe that in front of the Dodger defense Maddux would be that much worse. If the Padre defense was saving Maddux all the time wouldn't his BABIP be lower?

    Maddux's FIP, according to, is 3.53. That number relies only on his walk, K, and home run rates, of course. His excellent home run rate is surely helped by Petco park --- though to be sure he's allowed 4 home runs on the road, 7 at home. Strange, eh?

    Maddux does have better K and walk rates at Petco, but I'm not sure I can buy into the argument that his good year is a creation of Petco and good defense. I think it's more a creation of excellent walk and home run rates, with a bit of Petco thrown in.

    I will say I don't have a problem with the Dodgers not wanting to sign him for two years.

    2007-08-27 11:24:31
    52.   D4P
    It's true. They can change quite dramatically even from day to day. Course, the current numbers presumably account for the likelihood of little 7 game winning streaks...
    2007-08-27 11:24:31
    53.   fanerman
    46 I'd love to get some pictures of it, but it's super late. There's supposed to be another one in February that reaches total eclipse at a much happier hour... I think at around 11pm-ish.
    2007-08-27 11:31:59
    54.   Chris H
    It looked like Maddux had quite a bit left in the tank when he posted a 139 ERA+ for the Dodgers in 73.7 innings last year. A two year contract wouldn't have been ideal, but I think that Maddux at 41 was a safer bet than Randy Wolf (coming off injury and not having exactly set the world on fire the previous 4 seasons).
    2007-08-27 11:32:51
    55.   Bluebleeder87
    Thanks for the ballot Jon, I did a quick assessment but I think I was correct on some & maybe a little harsh on others, I'm a little surprised on how my Loney chart came out but I did give him a high grade on the "hands / catching" category
    2007-08-27 11:33:20
    56.   Xeifrank
    50. I think the best way to handle it, instead of having 10 wholly independent Kyle Blair's, would be to setup an array of Kyle Blair's. vr, Xei
    2007-08-27 11:36:48
    57.   Joshua Worley

    The problem with those numbers is they underestimate the Diamondbacks. I've spent all year underestimating that team, and I won't do it anymore. The Snakes have a horrible third order winning percentage, which is what BP uses. As well they should, usually. But the Snakes are better than theirs. They just are. Ooh, I hate them and their bizarre alchemy. So they really have a better than 71% chance of making the playoffs.


    Now, about this ten Kyle Blairs thing:

    1) When you draft a player, you also get the rights to his clones, to the Dodgers need to use only one pick to get all 10 Blairs.

    2) Cloned players have to wear the same number, but they are different versions. So say Blair was number 80. Then the real Blair is number 80.0. He's the prototype. The clones are then 80.1, 80.2, up to 80.9. See, this is why you have to stop at 9 clones. Because 80.10 would just look dumb.

    3) Of course, the Dodgers failed to sign even one Kyle Blair, so he and his clones are off to college, where I'm sure they will be involved in lots of mistaken identity hijinks. It will be like the Parent Trap crossed with Animal House ... the Animal Trap, or something.

    2007-08-27 11:38:15
    58.   Bluebleeder87

    that's what it comes down to, great point Jon.

    2007-08-27 11:38:25
    59.   regfairfield
    54 ERA is not a good way to evaluate pitchers. He still had a terrible strikeout rate and not a sterling home run rate. He would have been very mediocre if not for the .263 BABIP.
    2007-08-27 11:39:26
    60.   Joshua Worley
    Of course, the best thing about having 10 Kyle Blairs is they could naturally do that creepy simultaneous pivot thing from the Tom Emanski Baseball drills commercial.
    2007-08-27 11:40:01
    61.   Jon Weisman
    57 - "1) When you draft a player, you also get the rights to his clones."

    I can't believe Donald Fehr let this one get past him.

    2007-08-27 11:43:15
    62.   Disabled List
    I remember wondering aloud here why the Dodgers were so happy to sign Wolf and punt so quickly on Maddux. In hindsight, offering Maddux arbitration now appears to be a no-brainer. I don't think he would've received $12 million (even if he did, it probably would've been worth it), and more likely, he and the Dodgers would've come to some sort of agreement on a one-year deal.

    But all this was right around when the "he-wants-to-be-a-Dodger" formulation was taking hold in Colletti's brain. Hence Wolf.

    2007-08-27 11:44:04
    63.   Jon Weisman

    Ken Gurnick at

    "This specific management team has been in place less than two years, and that's too soon to judge, especially when the team made the playoffs in the first year and is still alive in the second. This management team is trying to overcome the mistakes of those past errors and are saddled with some problems that aren't its fault."

    I think this snippet eats itself alive.

    2007-08-27 11:45:53
    64.   fanerman
    63 Well that's a terrifying case of Deja Vu.
    2007-08-27 11:47:26
    65.   Wilbert Robinson
    63 yeeesh I wish I hadn't of read that. I waas feeling so serene.
    2007-08-27 11:48:47
    66.   Eric Enders
    "Mistakes of those past errors." Mistakes of errors.

    Um, yeah.

    2007-08-27 11:51:32
    67.   Linkmeister
    Dear me, Timmermann would make hay out of Gurnick's words there, wouldn't he?

    Bob? Bob?

    2007-08-27 11:54:08
    68.   Wilbert Robinson
    "This management team is trying to overcome the mistakes of those past errors..." = "This management team is trying to overcome success..."
    2007-08-27 11:54:13
    69.   Eric Enders
    I think this is the part where gpellamjr tries to tell us that "the management team are saddled with problems that aren't its fault" is correct grammar.
    2007-08-27 11:56:14
    70.   Disabled List
    I'm looking at Gurnick's list of pending Dodger FAs. The team is gonna be in a position to cut a lot of dead weight from the roster next season:


    Unfortunately, that list is heavy in PVL, so Colletti might not be able to resist hanging out to more than a few of them.

    2007-08-27 11:57:06
    71.   Disabled List
    70 hanging out = hanging on
    2007-08-27 11:57:29
    72.   regfairfield
    Problems that Ned is dealing with from the past regimes:

    Odalis Perez
    Drew opting out (not really)
    Drafting Justin Orenduff instead of someone else?

    Really, thanks to massive roster turnover this is almost entirely Ned's team.

    2007-08-27 11:59:13
    73.   Eric Enders
    The team of scientists assigned to the Blair cloning project has finished its task, but encountered some unexpected glitches along the way. The Dodgers are now the proud owners of 10 minor leaguers who look like Tony Blair but pitch like Linda Blair.
    2007-08-27 11:59:40
    74.   Joshua Worley
    If they've been saddled with problems that weren't their faults, they've also been bridled with assets that weren't in their credit bank either. They need to build on the successes of their past triumphs.
    2007-08-27 12:00:25
    75.   regfairfield
    I guess you can add 1.3 million to Cruz and Gagne if you want.
    2007-08-27 12:00:56
    76.   Eric Enders
    70 So we get to replace all that dead weight with deader weight. Whooooeeee!

    I'll run out and buy my World Series tickets right away.

    2007-08-27 12:01:27
    77.   Joshua Worley
    73 ---

    Well, at least he'll be good at holding on runners.

    2007-08-27 12:01:44
    78.   Humma Kavula
    73 Linda Blair -- now THERE'S a hurler.
    2007-08-27 12:02:44
    79.   Eric Enders
    70 Also, and I guess I'm going to have to keep saying this until I'm blue in the face, Jeff Kent will not, repeat NOT, be a free agent this offseason. We're stuck with him, boys.
    2007-08-27 12:05:06
    80.   regfairfield
    79 Plus, it would probably be really dumb to let Wolf go, since he's about the third best pitcher available.
    2007-08-27 12:07:14
    81.   Disabled List
    79 Tell it to Ken Gurnick. Did Kent's guaranteed option vest already?
    2007-08-27 12:07:58
    82.   D4P
    Other Dodgers who won't be free agents this offseason include (but are not limited to):

    Juan Pierre
    Nomar Garciaparra

    2007-08-27 12:10:23
    83.   Eric Enders
    81 It didn't vest yet. But unless he has a season-ending injury, it will.
    2007-08-27 12:11:42
    84.   dzzrtRatt
    Also on, this quote from Little on Wells.

    "I don't know everything he has in his belly, but he has a lot of competitive spirit in there."

    68 The Gurnick comment on Colletti is almost Rumsfeld-like. Didn't he coin the term "catastrophic success?"

    2007-08-27 12:11:50
    85.   underdog
    70 Sorry to sound stupid, but what's PVL?

    Okay, of those potential castaways, I'd be surprised if they didn't resign at least a couple of them. Here's what I'd want:

    Gonzalez - I'm probably in the minority here but I could see resigning Gonzo IF (and only IF) he was fine with being/the Dodgers promise that he'll be a fourth outfielder. Depth to the bench, he can be a good pinch hitter and role player. On the other hand, I'd be happy if they just gave Delwyn Young the chance.
    Hillenbrand - gone
    Kent - see 79
    Lieberthal - fine bringing him back as the backup if he is fine with only playing 5-10% of the time. Don't see a lot of good options for the Dodgers in the minors
    Martinez - can replace with Abreu/Young/whoever
    Saenz - good bless him, but time to hang 'em up Tomato
    Sweeney - gone (though he is a solid pinch hitter)
    Hernandez - for the love of God, gone
    Seanez - gone
    Wells - gone
    Wolf - ?

    2007-08-27 12:12:13
    86.   Eric Enders
    82 I will depart from grouchy mode to name a few other Dodgers who won't be free agents this offseason:

    Russell Martin
    Andre Ethier
    Matt Kemp
    Brad Penny
    Derek Lowe
    James Loney
    Andy LaRoche
    Tony Abreu
    Chad Billingsley
    Jonathan Broxton
    Takashi Saito

    There, I feel better now.

    2007-08-27 12:12:18
    87.   regfairfield
    81 84 more PA. I just added an option watch to the True Blue LA sidebar.
    2007-08-27 12:12:40
    88.   D4P
    Sorry to sound stupid, but what's PVL?

    Proven Veteran Leadership, of course.

    2007-08-27 12:12:56
    89.   Kevin Lewis

    I tend to agree with you about Kent, but he did leave some room for doubt at the end of his interview on "In My Own Words". Sadly, I am left thinking Kent is better than having Nomar around for another year...oh yea, we didn't dodge that one either. I am still amazed Gonzo turned down 2 years.

    2007-08-27 12:14:44
    90.   King of the Hobos
    The AFL rosters have been announced (although it should be noted that there's usually significant turnover before the league actually starts). The Dodgers currently scheduled to go are Hammes, Miller, Orenduff, Wright, Dewitt, Paul, and DeJesus on the Saguaros regular roster, and Cory Wade on the taxi squad.
    2007-08-27 12:17:22
    91.   Greg Brock
    70 Players I predict will be back from that list:

    Kent (vested option)

    2007-08-27 12:17:23
    92.   Eric Enders
    89 I believe the retirement bit from Kent about as much as I believed it from Saito.

    Human beings, no matter how much money they already have, do not turn down twelve million guaranteed dollars. Ever.

    2007-08-27 12:18:46
    93.   trainwreck
    Phil Garner just got fired.
    2007-08-27 12:18:58
    94.   Disabled List
    The Dodgers are leading the league in Proven Veteran Leadership, as well as Value Over Young Players.

    I expect Ned will take steps to make sure that continues next season.

    2007-08-27 12:19:56
    95.   bhsportsguy
    92 Again, just to understand, I believe your problem isn't whether or not Kent should be back, its just you don't like Kent having the decision versus the Dodgers being able to make the choice?
    2007-08-27 12:21:17
    96.   Eric Enders
    90 I had read that Morris was going to pitch in the AFL. Guess not.

    When do Hawaii rosters get announced? Last year we sent Wright, Hammes, Jansen, Paul, and DeWitt over there. The Dodgers must think pretty highly of Wright to be sending him to a prospect league two years in a row. I guess he might turn out to be a good LOOGY but I don't see much more than that.

    I was thinking they might send Mattingly to the AFL, to try and get him back on track in a league that's a hitter's paradise.

    2007-08-27 12:21:19
    97.   King of the Hobos
    85 Wasn't it quoted somewhere that Lieberthal would retire if his option wasn't picked up? If that's true, then I doubt Lieberthal really minds his current role. The club doesn't seem to really like Ellis (otherwise he would be here in September, and not Moeller), so Lieberthal's option seems to be a sure bet.
    2007-08-27 12:22:02
    98.   King of the Hobos
    93 And Purpura.
    2007-08-27 12:22:50
    99.   Eric Enders
    95 Yeah, exactly.
    2007-08-27 12:23:26
    100.   Greg Brock
    93 As did Tim Purpura, The General Manager.
    Show/Hide Comments 101-150
    2007-08-27 12:24:35
    101.   Sushirabbit
    How 'bout we replace Martinez with Kent?

    I think there's some truth to the idea that Maddux has a better defense behind him in SD. Up the middle Furcal was hurt, Kent looks more statuesque every day (and I like Kent), and Pierre's as sad an excuse for a CF that I've ever seen (even with his "good" qualities). Add to that Defensive questions at first (Nomar was not that great) and at third (Betemit's occasional stone hands) and you negate some of the benefit of Maddux.

    2007-08-27 12:25:08
    102.   Wilbert Robinson
    Edwin pitching well for Tampa again. Shutting out the White Sox through 6.
    2007-08-27 12:25:13
    103.   Eric Enders
    97 I don't think Ellis and Lieberthal are the only options. There is always the chance that the Dodgers could sign a backup catcher who can actually, you know, play.

    My fantasy is Piazza as the backup/pinch hitter. It'll never happen, but a guy can dream.

    2007-08-27 12:25:35
    104.   regfairfield
    98 Wow, just two seasons after a world series appearance.

    Kind of harsh, but Purpura did have no idea how to build an offense. He also didn't realize that this year probably should have been a sell year rather than a sign Carlos Lee year.

    2007-08-27 12:26:23
    105.   Ghost of Carlos Perez
    Did we get Dennis Baez for Edwin Jackson? And was it Lugo for Joel Guzman? It seems the Dodgers went sour on both of those guys pretty fast.
    2007-08-27 12:27:31
    106.   Wilbert Robinson
    Danys Baez and Lance carter for Edwin Jackson and Chuck Tiffany.
    2007-08-27 12:27:38
    107.   King of the Hobos
    96 Not sure about Hawaii, but that would make more sense for Morris than Arizona. Plus there's a good chance half the guys I mentioned get replaced anyways.

    And Wright has been having himself a nice season at Jacksonville after getting bombed in Vegas. He seems to be fairly effective against righties and Canuck likes him (as does White evidently), so I have some faith in him as a legitimate reliever.

    2007-08-27 12:28:06
    108.   trainwreck
    Did anyone else see that Owen Wilson tried to kill himself?

    2007-08-27 12:28:56
    109.   paranoidandroid
    I think Hillebrand can be back as a bench/role player depending on how things go this September and how much we can get him to sign for. He would replace Tomato simply because he can play a more solid third base. We can see if he can develop into a pinch hitter, that makes a difference too. Also, this assumes a healthy Nomar and LaRoche staring April at AAA.
    2007-08-27 12:29:23
    110.   Eric Enders
    Purpura was rather unfairly handicapped by ownership's decision to pour a lot of money into the useless phases of the careers of Bagwell, Biggio, and Ausmus. When you're throwing that much money down the toilet it's hard to field a good team on that kind of budget -- especially when you've made a point of razing your farm system.

    I love Bagwell and Biggio, but they are the reason the Astros are noncompetitive now and for the next couple of years.

    2007-08-27 12:30:07
    111.   underdog
    103 But I'd rather have Lieberthal behind home plate than Piazza. Martin would play even more if Piazza was his only defensive sub, imho. No, I wouldn't mind Piazza's bat added to the bench, but I guess I just don't see him as an ideal second catcher.
    2007-08-27 12:31:03
    112.   paranoidandroid
    103 Piazza makes a lot of sense if he's willing to start at first base a few times and knows he'll ride the pine a lot until he pinch hits. A perfect fit for us, not sure he's ready for that role though. I think he's looking at the American League where he can DH.

    I picked Houston to win the central. What happened to that pitching staff?

    2007-08-27 12:32:30
    113.   regfairfield
    110 True, but he did create a team that had offensive holes at short, second, catcher and center for a while. You simply can't function with a team with five automatic outs.
    2007-08-27 12:32:31
    114.   underdog
    108 Oh man. :-( Kind of shocking. Poor Owen, hope he recovers. (Assuming the details are all accurate; the sources quoted in that article are mostly tabloids...)

    Darn those girl troubles...

    2007-08-27 12:32:56
    115.   DeucesAreWild
    Quick, without looking, can you identify the lightest pitcher on the Dodgers active roster?
    2007-08-27 12:33:16
    116.   Eric Enders
    109 Just kill me now.

    111 I don't see any difference at all between Lieberthal and Piazza defensively. Am I alone in this? Just watching Lieberthal try to catch this year has been so painful I feel sorry for the guy. Stuff like last night, where he cost Broxton two called strikes in a row when he dropped two consecutive fastballs right down the middle.

    2007-08-27 12:33:19
    117.   paranoidandroid
    {111] 103 To clarify, I would want Piazza as a third catcher. He would replace Tomato in my ideal bench. Would make Shea unnecessary.

    I think Sweeney could stick around too. We like a PVL off the bench in the late innings. If we sign Gonzo again, this makes it more unlikely. But without Gonzo, I don't see us taking a rookie like Delwyn and putting him into late inning pressure situations off the bench.

    2007-08-27 12:33:52
    118.   King of the Hobos
    103 How many backup catchers can, y'know, play? Castro would be an improvement if he's willing to be a backup, but the Mets are apparently considering signing him to be their starter. And there's no way Posada will be a backup, so outside a trade, I don't really see us improving there. Especially if Martin never sits.
    2007-08-27 12:36:43
    119.   Eric Enders
    115 Gotta be Saito.
    2007-08-27 12:39:12
    120.   underdog
    116 I'd cut the guy some slack. He's got to be incredibly rusty, which sounds like an excuse but catching requires so many different things and if you don't play for two weeks, and then again for another two weeks - well, it ain't easy. He's a former gold glover. So, no, I don't agree. At least he stands a chance of throwing out a runner trying to steal. Piazza basically would have none.
    2007-08-27 12:39:24
    121.   Greg Brock
    118 Castro will most likely start for Los Mets next year.
    2007-08-27 12:39:38
    122.   Marty
    Everyone in the media is talking about what a lift Wells' 5-inning performance gave the Dodgers. If Billingsley had pitched that game, we'd be hearing about how he needs to go deeper into the game, he's straining the bullpen, etc. Maybe it's strictly because more is expected of Chad, but it irks me.
    2007-08-27 12:41:48
    123.   King of the Hobos
    116 If we promote Wright anytime soon, he'd win easily. He's listed at 160.
    2007-08-27 12:42:33
    124.   paranoidandroid
    My fantasy week which is actually possible....

    We sweep Washington. We actually should and could. We are in the position where we gain a game on ARZ or SD each night if we simply win our game. That will change a lot of the naysayers into believers. I think SD is going to bring AZ down to earth and tighten the west up. We can go along for the ride if we can take care of business at home!

    We go into SD and take at least two out of three with a sweep making us headliners on ESPN each night. We haven't had a six game winning streak in a long time, now would be the ideal time have one in August and turn this whole thing around. This is a crucial week for a lot of teams, but it will make us players or pretenders.

    I personally believe we are up to it. I kind of have to believe it. I am a grown man with two beautiful children and a full life, but somehow my team winning is an essential part of my happiness and I don't think I can change that. Go Blue. Please?

    2007-08-27 12:43:25
    125.   ToyCannon
    That is a far cry from the 2005 team that featured LaRoche, Loney, Kemp, Abreu, and Ethier from Oakland.
    2007-08-27 12:43:49
    126.   D4P
    I agree. Wells was lucky he didn't give up more runs.
    2007-08-27 12:43:53
    127.   Eric Enders
    120 Okay, but that doesn't change the fact that the Dodgers' backup catcher will, for the foreseeable future, be a guy who plays once every two weeks. We need someone who can handle that type of situation.

    Lieberthal's Gold Glove came before his catastrophic injury and the subsequent disintegration of his throwing arm. Calling him a Gold Glove catcher is like calling Shawn Green a Gold Glove outfielder. It's technically true, but he just doesn't have what it takes anymore.

    2007-08-27 12:45:09
    128.   paranoidandroid
    Hopeful Prediction: Lieberthal and Hillebrand will each have a crucial late inning pinch-hit homerun in September.

    Guaranteed Prediction: David Wells doesn't beat out any more bunts in his career.

    2007-08-27 12:45:24
    129.   ToyCannon
    44 year old pitchers who go 5 innings, give up two runs, embarrass the offense with a bunt single, and collect a win are okay with me.
    2007-08-27 12:47:51
    130.   ToyCannon
    Jason Philips raises his hand. I think he's still trying to get vested.
    2007-08-27 12:50:36
    131.   Linkmeister
    128 Yeah, probably, but seeing Wells beat that out was fun.
    2007-08-27 12:51:30
    132.   bhsportsguy
    122 That's true, but no one realy knew what Wells would do plus it was on national TV and the Dodgers really needed a win. Lost in the game was the good bullpen work by Rudy, Brox and Saito.

    The Tampa Bay Devil Rays are on their way to another 5th place finish and right now handily lead the race for the first draft pick in the 2008 draft.

    The Rays have only finished above last place once in ten years and while they have a ways before approaching the record of failing to finish with an above .500 record from start of your franchise (the Mariners did not finish with an above .500 record until their 14th season), I begin to wonder if they would not benefit from any kind of league restructure that could get them away from the Yankees and the Red Sox, not only playing almost a quarter of your games against them seem unfair, they will never come close to outspending them and those two teams have no problem using their revenues to buy free agents and draft picks.

    Despite their impressive young talent, it would seem almost impossible for them to put it all together to compete in AL East.

    2007-08-27 12:53:05
    133.   Wilbert Robinson
    Back to Back homers given up by Edwin. Long live Baez!
    2007-08-27 12:53:41
    134.   trainwreck
    And Edwin gives up three home runs in a row. Maybe I am bad luck for him.
    2007-08-27 12:54:03
    135.   Eric Enders
    133 Even Baez could do better than that. He could have given up three.
    2007-08-27 12:54:26
    136.   Eric Enders
    Oy. Talk about bad timing.
    2007-08-27 12:54:38
    137.   Wilbert Robinson
    welp guess what back to back to back
    2007-08-27 12:56:51
    138.   ToyCannon
    Next year they will win 10 games more then they ever have, and they will do the same thing in 2009.

    They don't need pity just good management and they finally have it.

    2007-08-27 12:58:08
    139.   Eric Enders
    And Danny Richar, whoever he is, fails to pull off the Marlon Anderson trick. Loser only hit a double.
    2007-08-27 12:59:25
    140.   DeucesAreWild
    Actually, Saito has 5 pounds on Scott Proctor. I was surprised.
    2007-08-27 13:01:02
    141.   ToyCannon
    Not that those listed weights mean jack.
    2007-08-27 13:02:20
    142.   Eric Enders
    The new sheriffs in Houston are Tal Smith and Cecil Cooper, if you're scoring at home.
    2007-08-27 13:02:46
    143.   Wilbert Robinson
    well now that Edwin Jackson is out I have nothing to do. Thanks a lot Joe Madden.
    2007-08-27 13:04:36
    144.   underdog
    127 Eh, fair 'nuf. He's definitely the gold glover he once was, my point is mostly I'd have more faith in him behind the plate than I would Piazza, and that he's still a little better there than he's shown us this year. I'd take him over a lot of other backups, whatever that's saying. Maybe in 2 years Lucas May will be the guy!
    2007-08-27 13:04:53
    145.   Wilbert Robinson
    Apparently Richar was a Diamondbacks farmhand who was traded for Aaron Cunningham to given them middle infield depth and allowed them to dump Iguchi. Next up..Who is Aaron Cunningham?
    2007-08-27 13:05:22
    146.   Jon Weisman
    New post up top.
    2007-08-27 13:07:30
    147.   Greg Brock
    145 Next up..Who is Aaron Cunningham?

    He is the guy who was traded for Danny Richar.

    2007-08-27 13:10:24
    148.   paranoidandroid
    I'm not going to use my 2 season tickets tonight or Wednesday. They can be had for FREE. Pick them up in Palmdale or they can be emailed for $2 each, a fee McCourt sticks you with that doesn't make any sense to me. Clippers tickets can be emailed for free.

    Anyway, if you want them emailed I'd ask for $4.50 through paypal to cover all the fees or you can send me a check for $4.00.

    Tickets are in top deck, sect 3, behind home plate. It is easy to hop on the elevator and go down to the reserve section on a weeknight.

    Post if you want the tickets. I'm going to the game tomorrow. BTW, I'm 5-0 this season.

    2007-08-27 13:17:08
    149.   underdog
    144 Definitely not, I meant above. Glad to be LATed.
    2007-08-27 13:17:33
    150.   LogikReader

    Don't Jinx it!!!

    Bob, when was the last time..? Aw man, he's on vacation.

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