Neither Eric Stults nor D.J. Houlton has pitched as poorly for the Dodgers this year as Loaiza in his past two starts, and the pair could easily combine for six innings.

I bet they are really mad about it too. :-)

I can't worry about Loaiza right now. I am concerned that Wells is overdue for a bad game (but hopefully I'm wrong). Maybe he will be the 2007 Marlon Anderson but on the mound.

88. goofus
Here's a vote for The Designated Hitter. It would keep the older players like Kent and Gonzo in the game as an asset and not a liability; It opens playing time for the young and upwardly mobile; It makes the manager's job easier and is probably easier on the pitching staff; And it puts the American and National leagues in conformity.

You know, I'll be honest, I was too focused on fantasy football to focus on this weekend. But hey, not a bad weekend! 2 of 3 from the D'backs.

I guess from here I just want to see a good fight. If the Dodgers play well to close the season, I'm satisfied even if they don't make the playoffs. What do you guys think?

Nice point on Loaiza Jon & great read on your last post about the Dodger "chemistry" as a fan the younger players look like there having plenty of fun (after every victory Ethier & Kemp do a HIGH HIP RITUAL OF SOME KIND were both players jump high & touch hips) of course you never expect anything like that from Kent but Gonzalez always looks like his having fun, like I said I think it's somewhere in the middle & the young 'uns are diffidently having a lot of fun.

1

I have the same feeling LAT specially him pitching in Colorado, hopefully he'll pool another rabbit from his bag 'o tricks.

1 - No, I expect Wells still has a bad game in him this week - especially if they start him twice.

"...it's a little too soon for Dodger general manager Ned Colletti to concede a problem in his $8 million acquisition."

I love it. Twelve games to play, and Colletti's sitting at his desk screaming into the phone, "We've got to give him more time!"

Has anybody done the math to see how many games were wasted this season by giving starts to Tomko, Hendrickson, Loiaza, and others in the Colletti Character Corps?

And by Loiaza, I mean Loaiza.

Good fungo, Jon. It really drives home the point that Arizona is doing it with mirrors.

At least that bodes well for next season, because they can't get this lucky twice, can they?

9
Perhaps Arizona will just be good next year, rather than lucky.

Did Bob have a bad weekend...?

11
Not that I recall.

10 - I agree. Arizona just figures to get better.

Maybe next year Arizona will have a great run differential but a lousy record.

re: Arizona in '08

Just more proof that the NL West is improved. I can't fathom the Dodgers running away with the division even if they make all the right moves in 2008.

Judging from Grady Little's quotes in the Times this morning, I don't think the Dodgers - or at least Little, who is The Decider - is gonna be in a hurry to hand the ball to Loiaza again. Sounds like he is mulling over the aforementioned other options.

Yeah, I'm not saying their young talent doesn't scare me. But maybe they won't all pan out. Drew, for one, already seems to be collecting some doubters; a few years ago he seemed like a sure thing.

How do we find a place for Delwyn Young, other than on the trading block for a middle-reliever?

18 By not re-signing Gonzo?

18. Even Vin expressly acknowledged (Fri's broadcast, I think) that the Dodgers are having a difficult time finding a place for Young.

20 I think Vin overstated his case, though. He basically implied that there is no position Young can play acceptably, which I don't think is the case. From all reports, he's become at least an average defensive outfielder, with a very strong throwing arm.

Imagine how many fewer extra bases teams would take on us with an outfield of Young-Kemp-Ethier.

I think we need to go at least 11-3 to make this happen.

Philly has a cake schedule and the Pads don't have as tough of one as we do.

We at least get the Snakes three more times, but we also need to make up ground when we aren't playing them.

We need no less than three in Colorado and a sweep in AZ. Or a total collapse of AZ and a .500 two weeks from SD. The division is more realistic to me than to catch the Phils with six against Florida and six against Washington. Maybe Anthony Reyes will give me something to be happy about tonight. A team that has lost 10 out of 11 with a Tomko-like starter? I'm not counting on it.

We might even be able to run the table and not get in. Still, it's been a fun season and I'm not packing it in yet.

The Cardinals website says Brad Thompson is starting tonight.

Most likely it will be "Cardinals Staff" vs "Phillies Staff" although Kendrick is the Phillies nominal "good" pitcher.

We got four wins with Wells, and two of them were because of his bat. He stayed out of big trouble by having the Mets run themselves out of innings and by making the last pitch he threw in NY the best he threw.

Those fly balls against SD would have been out of sight in many parks, especially Colorado and AZ. We can't have him pitch like that and get away with it for any stretch.

He should be on a short leash tomorrow. Three days rest in AZ? Grady might only be saying that. It all depends on tomorrow. If he only goes three innings, then yeah, he can come back this weekend. If not, we do have other options.

We got Loaiza for next year as much as this year.

22 Or 11-2. Unless you were counting the eventual one-game playoff.

10-3 likely wouldn't do it, unless the Padres help us out.

7 20-30 is the combined record for at least 25 million of starting pitcher salary this year.

Wells
Tomko
Hendu
Schmidt
Wolf
Loaiza

[21 ] yeah, no kidding. even the arizona CATCHER, chris snyder, easily went from first to third without a single hesitation on a base hit to center yesterday. he then scored on a single by chad tracy, if i recall. so, embarrassment factor aside, it's gotta be costing us runs.

26 The Yankees have spent around 37 million for an 18-19 record from these 4 pithcers:

Pavano
Clemens
Mussina
Igawa

7 While some of those starts could have gone to Bills, who else do you distribute the starts to? Stults? Houlton? They're, at best, just as good.

How many teams have at least 4 starters who have made 20 or more starts and the pitchers have a .500 or better W/L record?

The answer is 4, 3 of the teams are playoff bound, one is not.

Can you name them?

Hint: None of the teams play west of Central Timezone.

29 - Details, details... :)

Looking at the fivesome in 26 , I was OK with Schmidt and Wolf. The others had "meh" written on them (not literally, like Minotaur's Electric Arm) from the get-go.

But to halfheartedly attempt to sort-of answer your question, if the minor leaguers are as good or almost as good as the guys you're paying multi-millions, why not play the minor leaguers? It's just more evidence that the guy McCourt considers his best hire just really isn't very competent.

30 I'd guess Cleveland, Boston, and the Padres.

The other one might be Toronto.

32
Only two out of four.

32 You have 2 and I said no one West of the Central Timezone is in that group.

Okay, another hint, the remaining teams play in National League.

Hint: It's not Washington or Florida.

31 I totally agree with you at that point. Though I do believe that Loaiza is a slightly better option than Stults and Houlton. I just don't like people saying we'd be a far better team if we ditched everyone over 25.

Three ex-Dodgers in Kevin Goldstein's minor league report at BP today.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6722

36 - Just as long as we don't ditch all bloggers over 25.

18 - regarding d. young, if we assume our starting three outfielders next year are set with ethier/pierre/kemp, that leaves potentially two openings for bench players.

repko's still around, which makes him an early favorite for one spot, but the other appears to be wide open. while it's unlikely the [veteran-minded] management would give a bench job to an inexperienced player like young, he's certainly in the mix. in fact, i'd like to see him on the team in '08.

all that being said: he'll never start for us, his value is relatively high (though still not enough to bring back much in trade), and there are 29 other teams out there. i predict he'll be traded or stowed in AAA before he's handed a roster spot.

[33 ] minnesota, the mets?

okay, not minnesota.

29 "While some of those starts could have gone to Bills, who else do you distribute the starts to? Stults? Houlton? They're, at best, just as good."

That's an insult to Stults and Houlton. I'd say at worst they're just as good. It's very, very hard to be a worse major league pitcher than Tomko, Hendrickson, and Loaiza have been for the Dodgers.

I actually agree with the way the Dodgers handled Billingsley this year; while it hurt the team in the short run I have little doubt that it will help Chad in the long run. I do think they waited a few weeks too long to move him into the rotation, however.

So here's how you could have better managed the rotation:

1) Kuo was wasted for five starts in AAA before getting hurt. Turn those into big league starts.

2) James McDonald, by August, had pretty much proven himself to be a better option than Tomdrickson. The Dodgers cited a tired arm as an excuse not to call him up, but that turned out to be total BS since they kept starting him in the minors anyway. Even if you're going to shut McDonald down on September 1, you could have gotten five starts or so out of him in August.

So you give, say, 4 extra starts to Billingsley, 5 starts to Kuo, 5 to McDonald, split the other 16 between Stults and Houlton, and you could have easily and painlessly replaced the 30 starts wasted on Hendrickson and Tomko.

I have to say, Jon, that providing us with links to Baseball Prospectus is a big tease for those of us without subscriptions:(

39 Others have mentioned that Young's out of options, so the Dodgers need to go #2 or get off the pot. He either stays on the Dodgers all year in 2008 or we're forced to get rid of him.

44
Interestingly, my dad used #1 or get off the pot.

Both Ruggiano and Denker are at the point of their minor league careers where normally a question of adding them to the 40-man roster would have to be asked, Ruggiano is probably closer to being an issue since he has succeeded at AA but do the D-Rays add him or take a shot that no one will else will pick him in the Rule V draft.

Pedroza still has one more year before the Rays have to make a similar decision on.

I doubt the Giants have anything to worry about though if Denker does do anything next year, they may have to figure something out but Denker is now finishing his 5th year in pro-ball and has not sniffed AA yet.

According to my day-by-day calendar, today is "Respect for the Aged Day" in Japan.

43 see 46

47
The holiday in Japan exists because:
1) there are a lot of aged people in Japan
2) they wanted a holiday around this time of year

49 Luis Gonzalez would like everyone to know he's in favor of a similar holiday in the U.S.

30 Cubs, Mets, Jays, Indians?

51 Oh so close but not quite.

46 Problem is that Denker is easily one of their top 10 prospects.

42 I agree with you on Kuo, but I'd still be cautious with a guy like McDonald so early into his pitching career. Yeah, he still did start after he had arm trouble, but what happens if he comes up and succeeds? Do you risk throwing him out there, are do you face the outcry when you shut him down in a pennant race? Plus there were reports his velocity was down at that point, so it's questionable how effective he could be in the bigs throwing 88.

I think you have a higher opinion of Stults and Houlton than I do. Yeah, they're nice emergency options, but I don't think of them as much more. Stults got pounded at Vegas this year, and while Houlton improved, his numbers still aren't exciting. I would have used them instead of Tomdrickson, but I'm not confident they would do any better.

Loaiza is a much better pitcher than he's shown so far, though I did fear he would start handing out bombs like candy at Dodger Stadium

I'm going with Mets, Red Sox, Jays, and Milwaukee.

Indians, Red Sox, Mets, Phillies

54 Close again but still missing one.

I like Stults as our #5 starter. If he pitched regularly, he'd do well, imho.

Loaiza will be next year's Tomko, pitching for the Padres in August and September for free (for them)

I guess from the definitive-sounding hint that "3 of the teams are playoff-bound, one is not," we probably should have eliminated fringe playoff teams like the Cubs, Milwaukee and Philly right off the bat.

Astros, Indians, Red Sox, Mets

59 Okay, if the season ended today, 3 of the 4 would be in the playoffs.

All 4 teams have been mentioned as a response to this question.

Cubs, Jays, Red Sox, Mets?

Indians, Red Sox, Mets, Brewers

Certainly one advantage in using our pitching prospects if they are as good as hiring "Veterans" with multi-million dollar contracts is that it would free up a substantial amount of money to buy a good free agent hitter. This of course would improve the results from the prospects and the other pitchers. Not well stated but you know what I mean.

62 Yep.

I'm not sure what this means but I do think that for this year's Dodger team, they needed this type of durability and success from their starters because of the questions on the offensive side of the team.

I think the team could have survived losing Schmidt or Wolf but both proved too detrimental because that brought both Hendrickson and Tomko back in the rotation.

I hate the win stat too much to guess. I did however take a rough count of teams with 4 starters of 100 ERA+ in 20 starts and found 4... Mets, Blue Jays, Cubs and Giants. The Cubs will have 5 when Sean Marshall gets his next start.

64 Has that really been proven? Sure there are probably budget limits but I have never seen nor heard that money was a factor in not signing a free agent for this current regime at Chavez Ravine.

65 I'm not sure what this means

what it means is that Grady Little is a lousy manager...just had to throw that in, has nothing to do with your thread...

67 I remember a report that we were in the Soriano bidding, but backed out. Whether it was because of budget or because Ned isn't criminally insane is up to you.

New (sanitized) version of The Dugout over at AOL Fanhouse. Sadly different.

Hope they eventually find their stride in a PG format.

66 There are 5 teams with four such starters... including the Giants with five.

http://www.bb-ref.com/pi/shareit/FERX

71 Wakefield is at 97 which is why Boston only shows 3.

You could also change the criteria to 15 starts and a 120 ERA+. Which gives you the Dodgers as the only team with three such pitchers.

Looking at my chart from this morning, there were five winning pitchers this year whose game scores were higher than their pitch counts:

Randy Johnson: 76/61
John Maine: 70/62
Jason Hirsh: 67/62
Tony Armas: 69/65
Shawn Hill: 70/65

Unrelated trivia question. It's about giving up young talent to get a veteran at the deadline. We might not have gotten enough to get it done this year, but that has something to do with how fortunate the Snakes have been and how hot the Phils have been too. The Pads grinded it out, but the Snakes and Phils are simply getting lucky also. I'm glad we didn't give up more than Betemit for a shot at it this year.

What former Dodger did the Indians trade to get Travis Hafner when he was a prospect?

75 -- Einar Diaz

The only former Dodger I can think of who went to the Indians and then the Rangers is Ricardo Rodriguez.

Thanks for the heads up on True Blue L.A. Jon, & great reads BHSportsguy & TC.

75 And Ryan Drese!

76 Bingo.

Worst deadline trade ever?

I'd go with Lee Mazilli for David Cone and Ron Darling.

Last year Boston wanted Kemp for Wells.

80

I heard about the Kemp for Wells trade, & from what I remember Dodger management LOL'ed at it.

Definitely getting tense in the ITD comments.

82 - Sounds like Dodger Talk has taken a different direction this year? It's no longer a mouthpiece for the organization?

I heard bits of Dodger Talk yesterday coming home from my game, & it was definitely different yesterday & actually the whole year then in years past, The host was questioning some of managements moves & what not.

The callers have always been, um, passionate if not completely clued in on reality. But the host, whether Ross or A Martinez or whomever, has always gone out of their way to put a positive spin on the organization's decisions.

Sounds like now they've got a Big Nasty clone talkin' smack.

We're famous ... sort of.

http://www.lacitybeat.com/article.php?id=6141&IssueNum=223

"The LAist's own "Links" section is tucked away in a drop-down box at the bottom of the left column; follow the bread crumbs to the long-running Dodger Thoughts (Dodgerthoughts.baseballtoaster.com), only one of the innumerable sports blogs around town. Dodger Thoughts is run by the insightful Jacob Weisman, who's written for Sports Illustrated and Variety, and it doubles as a message board of sorts for Dodger fanatics, with hundreds of user comments per day. "

84 I think that was Josh's point, if you are going to question moves and then state opinions without possibly getting the other side of the story, then that is unfair.

In Josh's world, the media is the conduit for getting answers and then letting the public make their decisions base upon what they find out.

Look down south, normally one of the Angel's broadcasters does the post game show and he tends to be more of house organ but that is understandable since he works for them. But he also is there everyday so at least is has that going for him.

The only post game show host that really critiqued the Dodgers and their players was Al Downing.

85 Not sure about all callers clued into reality.

86 Well done Jacob.

85 So basically, they have a Dodger Talk caller hosting the show? Lovely.

86
I would file Jacob away for further consideration.

RIP, Brett Somers.

86 Great coverage, Jake! Atta boy.

No, seriously, it's a nice blurb.

92
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!

92 Aw man. Off to the big Match Game in the sky. At least she can join Charles Nelson Reilly there, now.

92 First Charles Nelson Reilly, now Brett Somers, only Richard Dawson can answer this:

"blank" In Peace.

Not sure I agree with Josh on this one. I have to admit I don't know what Bob Harvey was harping on but you don't need to "contact" the Dodgers or get their side of the story to comment on what is happening on the field. The decesion to sit Kemp does not require a comment from the Dodgers. Sure Grady's imput is welcome but not required. The decesion to pick up Loaiza and keep him for next year is troubling given his performance. Again Ned's opinion would be interesting but I don't need it to conclude this signing is suspect.

Who's the likely winner of the "Match Game" tonteen? Fannie Flagg? Richard Dawson? Patti Deutsch?

96 - And Gene, too.

98 - Is Elaine Joyce eligible?

98 i believe it's spelled "tontine". :)

and i only say that because i had to look it up, haha.

According to the IMBD, Elaine Joyce is married to Neil Simon.

I did not know that.

99 Gene was the first to go in 1999.

Elaine Joyce is 62, Patti Deutsch will be 62, Fannie Flagg will be 63 and Richard Dawson is 75.

My hunch is Elaine Joyce.

100
So where were you when I was misspelling the word earlier?

https://griddle.baseballtoaster.com/archives/748424.html

The Match Game tontine is similar to the Hellcat Bonanza.

I think Richard Dawson could get a boost if he marries a younger woman.
http://tinyurl.com/2hd9e7

See, you know why men chase after women? It really is because they fear death.

Years ago when I was starting out I had a case with Fannie Flagg. She moved to Ga. (I think it was) for about 4 months to write the screenplay for Fried Green Tomatos. While she was gone she left her Santa Barbara house in the care of some guy she only marginally knew. While she was gone, he sold off all the pieces of her home. The doors, the bathtubs, the carpet, the hardwood floors, the windows everything you can think of right down to the studs. However, he put all her personal belongings in the EZ Storage right off the freeway there and shortly after she discovered where her stuff was a car lost control and plowed through the stroage unit destroying most of her personal stuff. Her insurance company could not believe this could have actually happened so they hired counsel to investigate the claim. Best I could discover it was all true and they paid the claim. I didn't ask her about Match Game although I should have. I bet there was a lot of booze and some good stories on that set.

[103 ] apologies. my life has been in almost constant flux for the past 2-3 months. i'll pay more attention in the future. :)

105
Fannie Flagg was one of the guests on the first episode of Johnny Cash's TV show.

The other two guests were Bob Dylan and Joni Mitchell.

One of the best hours of TV I've ever seen.

Excuse me, it was the Hellfish Bonanza

Just read that New York Magazine article on the Dodgers. It definitly does give a good glimpse at what's going on here in Brooklyn. I'd recommend reading it if you missed it. The level and pace of development here is rather astonishing. "Semi-public" parks, private water taxis for luxury condo residents, people jet skiing on the East River on Sunday afternoons. None of this was here a year ago. Magic Johnson is building luxury condominiums directly across the street from my house. Last year it was a bus depo by the end of this year its going to be a 6 story sprandrel glassed condo featuring a roof terrace and pool. Anyway, it has been rather offensive how the Brooklyn Dodgers have been used as a rallying point for bringing the Nets and 22 acres worth of development to town.

Dodger and Match Game talk can continue in new post up top.