Baseball Toaster Dodger Thoughts
Help
Jon Weisman's outlet
for dealing psychologically
with the Los Angeles Dodgers
and baseball.
Frozen Toast
Search
Google Search
Web
Toaster
Dodger Thoughts
Archives

2009
02  01 

2008
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2007
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2006
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2005
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2004
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2003
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2002
09  08  07 
About Jon
Thank You For Not ...

1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

The Open Wound: The Day After
2007-09-21 08:30
by Jon Weisman
Note: The Dodger Thoughts blog has moved to the Los Angeles Times.

Okay, I've read Bill Plaschke's Times column on the Jeff Kent quotes three times. And as put off as I was by the way it began, it is worth some scrutiny.

It starts off by saying:

This youth movement has officially gotten old.

I thought it would work, I really did, but I admit today that I am wrong.

Right away, you think you know what the column is going to argue. But then, on the third read, I finally focused on a paragraph I was glossing over.

A youth movement works only when the veterans are flexible enough to move. The Dodgers veterans, it turns out, were not.

To me, despite everything else in the column, this means Plaschke is not blaming the youth movement itself. If you read the whole column, he blames - it's hard to say really. Everybody? He seems to be reassert that the team's direction was correct, but within that framework, everyone could have handled things better. And that's a reasonable hypothesis.

Plaschke goes on to assign partial responsibility for this clubhouse combustion to manager Grady Little, a man who earlier this month he said was handling the transition superbly. Now, Plaschke isn't so sure, but goes on to absolve Little by saying he had an impossible task keeping everyone happy.

Was it impossible? I want to think not, but I don't know. In any case, I still think having the right players on the field at the right times is more important than keeping them happy in the clubhouse. Not that the latter isn't important at all, it's just less important.

Anyway, the point Plaschke seems to be going after is subtle - almost too subtle. Here's how the column ends:

Kent's comments show Little has lost a part of the clubhouse he must win back before that can work.

As for Kent, he will make noises about retiring, especially since the Dodgers will reduce his playing time next year while playing Tony Abreu. But I've got 9 million reasons he will return, his option having vested on Thursday, not coincidentally the same day he publicly complained.

In case he is wondering if the Dodgers bosses were listening, I've got three words for him.

They'd better be.

What exactly is the message Plaschke wants Dodger leadership to get, and how does he want them to react in tangible terms? Am I being dim? I've read the column four times now, and I still don't really know. Is it, "Do the youth movement, but do it right?" If so, I agree with Plaschke - with the qualifier that I still am not completely sure everyone agrees on what "doing it right" means.

Update: The copy editors of the Times didn't quite get the subtlety, either. Their print headline for the column's jump: The youth movement is a flop.

Comments (432)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-09-21 08:51:22
1.   LAT
I don't really care for Kent's comments-whatever they are meant to convey but I am happy to have him back next year. While, as someone here said, he has the range of an Easy Bake over, he does still have power on an team that does not have much (although developing more) and he generally produces. So in my view, bring him back, let platton with Abrau, who may or may not be ready to play everyday, release Lucille, and ignore Kent's complaints about PVL and such. Who cares if Jeff's "happy" with the make up of the team. If he comes back it will be for one of two reasons. Money or a last shot at the WS. If its the former who cares what he thinks. If its the latter, he will be playing as hard as he can and that's all that matters. The issue is not Jeff shooting off his mouth its whether anyone upstairs will listen or care.
2007-09-21 08:55:13
2.   Terry A
Against my better judgment, I broke my Plaschke Embargo and read this one. This jumped out at me:

"When... there was nobody who could play third base, it became clear the Dodgers would have to trade a prospect to contend for a championship.

"At that point, at the end of July, Ned Colletti made the decision that old-fashioned Dodgers general managers used to make.

He decided to keep the kids even if it meant losing the championship. He committed to developing a team capable not only of sudden impact, but staying power."

Except that he didn't do that. He panic-traded the team's best power hitter and third baseman -- who is young and capable of both sudden impact and staying power -- for a dadgummed middle reliever.

The rest of it is similarly ridiculous and meandering, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

2007-09-21 08:57:49
3.   Daniel Zappala
It is a very confusing column, but then I haven't read Plaschke in over a year. It reads to me as if Plaschke wants the Dodgers to crack down on the vets -- to tell them straight out that the kids will be playing and they will need to get used to their new role. I think this is what the final "they'd better be" means -- they better be hearing the grousing and realize they need to squelch the complaining, tell the veterans their new role, and use a consistent lineup. It's time to stop mixing-and-matching and just play the kids because they're clearly playing better.

If this is what he means (because it really is hard to tell), I'm all for it. Mostly, I don't care, because I don't listen to Plaschke and I hope the Dodger front office doesn't either. Back to my self-imposed Plaschke ban.

2007-09-21 08:58:51
4.   underdog
1 Right, but the question is what are they supposed to listen to or do about it? Plashcke doesn't even seem to know. He wants it both ways - and isn't even clear what those ways are! It's fine and even understandable if Kent isn't happy with the results this season; it's just the finger pointing, as if his finger were a gun and he was randomly firing it, mostly at his younger teammates, in anger.

Anyway, Plaschke's continual presence in the Times makes me sad, given all the fine writers who came before him there.

2007-09-21 09:02:18
5.   LAT
There is going to be serious trouble in the LAT house tonight. My youngest daughter ate every last marshmellow out of whole box of Lucky Charms. Now its just a box of cereal with no luck and no charm.
2007-09-21 09:03:25
6.   Jon Weisman
5 - I always hated when the charms were gone and all that was left were the luckys.
2007-09-21 09:04:06
7.   Formerly R
It seems to me that Plaschke is saying, "Youth movements are great. Yes sir, yes sir, three bags full. So long, of course, as it's a youth movement that wins divisions."

Plaschke wants the excitement a youth movement brings, but he could do without those pesky growing pains.

Whatever, pal. Go have your cake. Just don't eat it where I can see you.

2007-09-21 09:06:26
8.   Humma Kavula
Good post, Jon. It's a tough job, scruting the inscrutable.
2007-09-21 09:07:02
9.   dzzrtRatt
Plaschke was projecting his angst about his own situation, working in a newsroom where most of the PVL has taken the buyout, the remaining veterans are sullen and paranoid about losing their jobs, a bunch of new kids are coming in who understand the google but aren't much good as journalists, and the ownership and management are both clueless and indecisive.

Like Jeff Kent, Plaschke sees all this and isn't sure who to blame, so he rambles incoherently and gives everyone the wrong impression.

2007-09-21 09:07:42
10.   Terry A
I really do like that final "They'd better be." As Jon noted, its meaning is so nebulous as to be nonsensical, like Jon's "You do the math."

Has somebody sent this to the guys at FJM yet? They should be excited at the comedic gold mine that is this column.

They'd better be.

2007-09-21 09:12:20
11.   LAT
4. Mangement hopefully isnt listening to Kent at all. Hopefully management has a plan for the kids and the message to Jeff is "you can rant but we are staying the course. Are you in or out?"

Also, a few comments from Kent and an article by Plaschke is the tip of the iceberg. When the season is over there will be articles from every corner of baseball media about how the Dodgers were the bigggest failure of 2007. We are going to finsh fourth in the division after being picked to go to the WS by many. Baseball Tonight, Jeff Passan, SI. These guys are going to have a field day. Its an easy story and people are going to jump on it. Ned and Grady will survive but the kitchen hasn't even begun to get hot.

2007-09-21 09:14:33
12.   Bob Timmermann
Plaschke's colunmn was inscrutable, tangy, baffling, hurtful, and enigmatic all at the same time.
2007-09-21 09:15:22
13.   Jon Weisman
10 - It is! It's a poor man's "You do the math!"

"Has somebody sent this to the guys at FJM yet? They should be excited at the comedic gold mine that is this column.

They'd better be."

Brilliant!

2007-09-21 09:15:50
14.   underdog
Plaschke's column made me bitter, perplexed and angry.
2007-09-21 09:19:21
15.   Branch Rickey
Reading the papers and then all of the comments is actually pretty amusing. Kent's comments are so vague he's sent us into 400 comments of trying to figure out what the heck he meant. Is he mad about the youth? The manager? The front office? OJ? And Plaschke's reaction was equally uninterpretable. What does he agree with and disagree with? I know there's a lot of emotion, I'm just not sure what the subject is.
2007-09-21 09:20:11
16.   Disabled List
Plaschke's column made me stupider by about 4 IQ points.
2007-09-21 09:20:56
17.   underdog
Off topic but some good news for once:
http://www.presstelegram.com/sports/ci_6954613

Kevin Everett may be walking again, and sooner than anyone would have predicted.

2007-09-21 09:24:04
18.   CarlosDeC
I will say it. Plachke's article was awful. It was poorly written, and it is impossible to really understand what he was saying. If you have to read a newspaper article 3 or more times to get the gist of it, then it is probally not a good article. Nice try but definitely a swing and a miss of Plachke.
2007-09-21 09:25:02
19.   Vishal
the reason why it's not clear is because plaschke is waffling. which is weird because plaschke usually doesn't hesitate to slam someone when he wants to.
2007-09-21 09:25:23
20.   Ben P
Obviously my expectations are so low for Plaschke that I actually found myself not minding this column, despite how confusing it was. In the old days I would have expected Plaschke to just write, "Kent is right. They should have played the veterans. You can't measure the value of experience, period." That would have been clearer, but it also would have been wrong. I think Plaschke is right that Little had a tough job but also didn't do it well. I think there's a way to juggle lineups while still giving your players a degree of certainty, or at least some logic they can point to so they understand why they played yesterday, but aren't playing today. Little didn't do that.
2007-09-21 09:26:03
21.   fracule
5 I like the metaphor for what I think about the Dodgers right now. Although, we really have what you'll have in a couple days, no charm and stale luckys.
2007-09-21 09:26:49
22.   dzzrtRatt
11

I go back to Opening Day. Schmidt was on the mound, Kemp was in right field. I had just seen Schmidt match Maddux in that great game the previous August that was decided by Martin's walk-off homer, and expected to see more of the same, just in a different uniform.

Instead, Schmidt was ineffective and Kemp smashed his shoulder against the new out-of-town scoreboard/advertising vehicle. There's your alibi right there. Add Wolf, Furcal, Kuo, Tsao, Brazoban and the indecision about 3B, plus Pierre's early season "slump," and you've got all the excuses you'd need.

However, the writers who picked LA to finish first and go to the World Series were mostly from national media anyway. They were charmed by Nomar's resurgence in 2006 and didn't notice that it ended at mid-season. Resigning him was clearly Colletti's worst decision -- worse than Pierre, even -- because Nomar had nothing, and Loney was rotting away in LV.

The genuine surprise in the NL West is Arizona. San Diego in retrospect is the clear class of this division, and it would've been a bigger surprise if they'd tanked (which they still might.)

2007-09-21 09:28:17
23.   still bevens
So since Kent's option vested, can he be traded to a mediocre AL team with poor playoff chances?

Maybe Cleveland will get rid of the Josh Barfield experiment and would be willing to take Kent. Do they have anything shiny we could get in return?

2007-09-21 09:29:22
24.   DavidS
I am guessing most of this is obvious, and think one of Kent's points is that it is more than just the stats (the veteran little things) but 2nd half (since we were in first place) OPS and ERAs. One vet I wish we had for whole season is Jason Schmidt and his 15+ wins because tough to put consistent winning together with the compete for 3 roll the dice for 2 rotation the Dodgers have had all season.

Martin 832
Loney 844
Kent 963
Furcal 677
Garciaparra 808
Gonzalez 681
Ethier 854
Pierre 735
Kemp 898
Saenz 490
Martinez 515
Lieberthal 566
Penny 3.65
Lowe 5.51
Billingsley 2.85
Hendrickson 7.82
Beimel 3.95
Hernandez 5.40
Broxton 3.18
Saito 1.52
Seanez 4.83

2007-09-21 09:29:50
25.   Bob Timmermann
23
The Indians are playing Asdrubal Cabrera at second base now. Barfield is just a pinch runner/defensive replacement now.
2007-09-21 09:31:50
26.   Vishal
i'm tempted to write plaschke asking him to take a position.
2007-09-21 09:34:11
27.   Andrew Shimmin
10- His original ending was "Don't tase me, bro!" But he thought it was too soon to joke about.
2007-09-21 09:35:34
28.   Jon Weisman
26 - I agree with 19, and I would advise you not to encourage Plaschke to take a position. We're probably safer if he waffles. I'd rather see him struggle with this stuff than take the easy way out. It's almost as if we're watching a leopard in mid-attempted-spot-change.
2007-09-21 09:37:06
29.   blue22
Kent's comments are water off a duck's back assuming he:

1. goes out there next year and hits .280 with 20 homeruns, and catches everything hit to him within a 3-foot radius.

2. doesn't become Ned's assistant GM this offseason.

As for Plaschke, it seems there's a solid 10% of legitimate insight in that column. Nice work, Bill - now take the rest of the offseason off! Or switch to Kobe-related observations.

2007-09-21 09:37:44
30.   SG6
24 - I looked up OPS in September (Kent considers that the time for experience to shine). I can't figure out who gets the fingers pointed in their direction, other than Furcal, who really stunk it up. Was it about pitching and Broxton??

Loney: 1.153
Kemp: .978
Gonzo: .867
Pierre: .818 (?????)
Kent: .817
Nomar: .810
Ethier: .798
Martin: .762 (tired?)
LaRoche: .715
RMart: .583
Abreu: .494
Furcal: .489

2007-09-21 09:41:01
31.   Branch Rickey
I mentioned in a post last week that Gonzo had a complaint about the way things were. I know he is at least as unhappy as Kent and I know that at least one veteran pitcher agrees as well. My guess is they've been talking to each other and getting pretty worked up. Kent's reactions might be like when you're talking loudly in a loud room and then it gets quiet all of a sudden. People wonder why you're talking so loudly.
What exactly that they're upset about? Probably a false sense of entitlement mixed with the fact that there is no camaraderie (creating an "us against them" feeling). And the young players these days don't listen to the vets like the vets did when they were young players. And the young players don't have the work ethic that the vets (or coaches) did when they were young players.
2007-09-21 09:41:48
32.   kingbb99
Make no mistake Kent is a red ass. He is also a frustrated player in the twilight of a HOF career. His obstinacy is part of what has made him great. Kent - like most - was raised on the same baseball mythology that kept a "proven veteran" like Garciaparra in the line up while James Loney stagnated in Las Vegas. This is endemic to baseball.

Plaschke - as always - adds nothing to the conversation. This guy changes his opinion with the breeze. He is a caricature of himself. No opinion seeking sports fan gives him or Simers a serious look.

As to the fire Grady Little talk that's starting to percolate, I'm indifferent. If he and Colletti go together, I'm all for it. But for those that are so gung ho to fire Little, please remember that our last manager used a line up that often featured Jason Phillips – at first base. Most of these guys are terrible. God love Scioscia, but if he still had Darin Erstad and Adam Kennedy they'd be playing everyday.

Little has a genuine problem with more talented youngsters than veterans. His situation is unenviable. He is saddled with Juan Pierre in the first year of a five-year deal, and Garciaparra in the first year of a two-year deal. Luis Gonzalez was signed with the assurance of a starting job. The push-pull of management, fans, players and media is enough to strangle anyone.

2007-09-21 09:42:25
33.   dzzrtRatt
30 Somewhere, Joe Morgan is smiling and caressing his mustache.
2007-09-21 09:42:32
34.   Kevin Lewis
The column started off okay in my opinion, pointing to the lack of flexibility by the veterans, but the way he ends it is just as vague as the comments made by Kent.

I agree with dzzrtRatt's comment in 300 from the last thread. I think Kent chose a poor time to vent, when it couldn't possibly help the situation. I do wish this had happened earlier in the season to get it out in the open and to force the management to be up front with everyone. If anything, I see this as an exposure of the lineup management gave and the constant juggling made by Little. I think Grady and Ned are the true targets of Kent's comments.

2007-09-21 09:42:32
35.   NoHoDodger
Prior to logging on the computer to read DT, I read Plaschke's column. My initial reaction was "?" I could not figure out what he was saying. He was all over the place. I thought, maybe it was me.

But then I read Jon's post and felt much better. It wasn't me. It was Plaschke.

This article makes no sense at all. It was really four articles condensed into one article.

The best that I can interpret at the end of the article is that because there is a $9Million contract vested for Kent next year, he will certainly not walk away from that kind of money. So.......

The Dodger Brass must deal with a returning Kent and the youth movement (one year removed)for the 2008 season. That is why he concludes that the Dodgers better be listening or they will have the same type of issues lingering on.

Does that mean that Plasche (and Kent for that matter) feels that only a new manager can keep both Kent/Garciaparra (under contract) and the kids on the same page?? I don't know.

What do you think?

2007-09-21 09:45:06
36.   Branch Rickey
31. Just a quick follow up... I guess as a fan I find that frustrating but bottom line is performance and most of the youngsters have performed. I'm not sure many people who aren't Dodger vets feel like the youth got too much playing time this year.
2007-09-21 09:46:08
37.   fanerman
I only hope that nothing bad comes out of Plaschke's article.
2007-09-21 09:49:05
38.   ImprobableImpossible
Plaschke's column is a mess. It's obviously a rush job on a story that broke late yesterday afternoon by a writer that wasn't there.

I've said it before: when it comes to touchy-feely, human-interest stories, Plaschke is the best. When it comes to giving a take, he's awful.

2007-09-21 09:53:21
39.   Andrew Shimmin
34- That it didn't happen earlier in the season seems to argue for the "Chemistry is a residue of winning" theory. Everybody's shorts got twisted the week the season died. Could be a coincidence, I guess.
2007-09-21 09:53:48
40.   Terry A
31 - "And the young players these days don't listen to the vets like the vets did when they were young players. And the young players don't have the work ethic that the vets (or coaches) did when they were young players."

Are you stating this as fact or saying it's probably what's put the bug in K(v)ent's and Luis's and Lowe's collective saggy veteran butt?

2007-09-21 09:55:29
41.   dzzrtRatt
Remember the confident Frank McCourt on DT Day? "Everyone's on the same page," which is easy to say when you're in first place.

I wonder what he thinks now, and what he's going to do.

Now might be a good time for someone (DT?) to educate McCourt on the slow but interesting course of Dodger history from the 1968 draft to the 1981 World Championship. Youth movements don't translate into instant success. But when fans feel like it's "their" team -- rather than a shifting case of veterans who made their reputations elsewhere -- they'll be a lot more patient.

2007-09-21 09:57:03
42.   Daniel Zappala
28 It's almost as if we're watching a leopard in mid-attempted-spot-change.

Jon, this is an absolutely brilliant line. I wish I had thought of it.

I kind of like the idea that Plaschke is so confused that he couldn't just quite figure out what to say. I have an image of him spluttering while at the keyboard -- "Veterans have experience ... but the kids are the ones playing well ... but the vets came to the park early ... but Kemp is really exciting ... but Gonzo and Nomar are really nice to me ... aaaagh!" Then his head explodes, the resulting smoke forms the words "Depo sucks!", and then it wafts away and we are left with a new day for the LA Times sports section.

2007-09-21 09:58:18
43.   Branch Rickey
40. I'm stating this as a position I've heard so many times from so many vets that I believe it to be fact.
2007-09-21 09:59:08
44.   dzzrtRatt
41 shifting cast not case.
2007-09-21 10:00:25
45.   blue22
39 - The convergence of Kent's option vesting and the Dodgers' performance in Colorado formed a perfect storm for Kent to start whining. And the young players have probably been bugging Kent all year, what with their rap music and their MySpace pages and their stealing of the playing time.
2007-09-21 10:02:12
46.   dzzrtRatt
43 But that's how older people always feel, isn't it?

That's how older colleagues felt about me when I was an ingenue/boy wonder, and that's how I feel about a lot of the talented but empty-headed kids I've had to train. Not to mention me vs. my Dad and now me vs. my son.

2007-09-21 10:05:31
47.   Eric Enders
43 Every generation of old players thinks the young whippersnappers don't have the work ethic the old guys do. And they're always wrong. Fifteen years ago, when Kent and Gonzo were new, it was guys like Nolan Ryan and George Brett saying that these young guys today, they just don't understand. It's just the cycle of baseball. And yet somehow the level of dedication and professionalism in the game seems to increase over time, not decrease.

Basically, I think Kent's upset that he didn't get his ring kissed subserviently enough, and now that the season's over and his option's vested he's taking the opportunity to rant nonsensically.

2007-09-21 10:09:42
48.   sporky
47 - Basically, I think Kent's upset that he didn't get his ring kissed subserviently enough, and now that the season's over and his option's vested he's taking the opportunity to rant nonsensically.

What's Plashke's excuse?

Reading that column, and getting massively crapped on by a crow/blackbird... my Friday's off to a great start.

2007-09-21 10:10:21
49.   Jon Weisman
Bob with the music quotes on the Griddle!

Or is that Yeats?

2007-09-21 10:11:22
50.   KG16
45 - I'm thinking the same thing. As I said yesterday, Kent doesn't seem the time to air dirty laundry in public, so if he's saying this stuff now, he's probably been saying a lot more for a good part of the season.

I'm just glad I'm not the only one confused by Plaschke's latest. My concern is that he seems to be the barometer of public opinion for McCourt. And you can read this column as a call to dump the kids and go with PVL.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-09-21 10:11:26
51.   Branch Rickey
46. I hear you and I'm sure that's part of it. But things are definitely different in an MLB clubhouse now. If you were a rookie in say 1977 or even 1992 and a coach or veteran told you to do something, you did it without question. And teammates hung out together as well. Now, guys are out the door and with their agents 30 minutes after the last out. And they show up for early BP if they feel like it. And they take advice as a suggestion. That's not to say none of them work hard. It's just a different sense of entitlement than existed say 15 years ago and back. Of that I am sure.
2007-09-21 10:13:37
52.   Vishal
28 well, i don't like plaschke's work at all, but i actually wouldn't mind politely pointing him in the right direction when he writes about the dodgers. my email isn't confrontational and asking him to choose a side. i'm basically lobbying on behalf of the kids. i haven't sent it yet, though.
2007-09-21 10:15:09
53.   Jon Weisman
47 - This is a question for Branch: What's the comparison between Kent and Eddie Murray?

By reptuation, true or not, Eddie waited for younger players to approach him. Kent seems to be saying the same thing (or, that he went to the young players but was ignored), although his past reputation is that he likes to be left alone with his thoughts or magazines, that he's not someone who likes to linger before or after a game.

What's your take?

2007-09-21 10:15:41
54.   Jon Weisman
52 - Okay. I trust you :)
2007-09-21 10:16:59
55.   sporky
Would Ned listen to Buster Olney?

A-rod a perfect fit for the Dodgers

http://tinyurl.com/2yhcjb

2007-09-21 10:17:43
56.   Howard Fox
Tony Jackson's take in the Daily News seemed much better, at least to me. It appeared to me to be a case, in his view, of Kent's frustration, almost sour grapes, about the season falling apart.

Then again, what do I know.

2007-09-21 10:17:48
57.   fanerman
I bet Jeff Kent would shut up and play if we signed A-Rod.
2007-09-21 10:19:04
58.   Howard Fox
I bet we actually enter the ARod sweepstakes if Kent opts out.
2007-09-21 10:19:46
59.   King of the Hobos
49 You were correct with song, it's "Eve of Destruction," and the most famous version is Barry McGuire's.
2007-09-21 10:20:52
60.   underdog
But would A-Rod and Kent get along? I guess they would if the team was winning, but doesn't A-Rod have a rep (fair or not, and who cares) for being aloof or self-oriented? I wonder what kind of fit the two of those guys would be, but maybe they'd be a perfect fit - especially, again, if they won.
2007-09-21 10:21:34
61.   Bob Timmermann
59
You didn't know who Abe Vigoda was, but you knew about Barry McGuire?
2007-09-21 10:23:28
62.   Branch Rickey
I can tell you (and I think you'll see the humor in this) that Murray sees Kent exactly as we do, surly and unapproachable. And it's a particularly interesting question you ask because Kent played his first couple of years as a teammate of a veteran Murray. I think Kent was influenced by Murrays approach to the game. Preparation, hard work, no showiness, respect for the game, respect for elders of the game, these are things that are important to both. They certainly didn't hang out this year but I think both would tell you they respect the others approach to the game and miss it in the younger players.
2007-09-21 10:29:09
63.   Terry A
So essentially, Kent is Andy Rooney.
2007-09-21 10:30:02
64.   Vishal
55 wow, i agree with buster olney about something.
2007-09-21 10:31:51
65.   Bob Timmermann
63
Both men hate baseball.
2007-09-21 10:32:05
66.   Wilbert Robinson
from a kent bio:

Jeff approached spring camp as a learning experience. He confidently sidled up to veterans stars like Joe Carter, Dave Winfield and Jack Morris and picked their brains. They thought Jeff was a riot. None could remember a rookie looking so at home in a major league uniform, or acting so much like a part of a team he had yet to make! But whenever manager Cito Gaston put him in games, he got the job done.

but then of course there's this:

Despite his hard-nosed play, Jeff was not a favorite of Green's. The manager chided Jeff about his propensity for striking out, and complained about his fielding, which produced a league-high 18 errors in '93. At one point, during a series against the Cubs, Green benched him for three games. Jeff was so furious that it took a visit from his wife, Dana, to calm him down. During the All-Star break the couple went house-hunting in Austin, Texas, and later purchased a home there.

in '93 Kent was 25 and was in his 2nd year.

http://tinyurl.com/74w2x

2007-09-21 10:32:47
67.   regfairfield
58 There's no opt out, the option vested.
2007-09-21 10:33:45
68.   Terry A
65 - And everyone younger than them.
2007-09-21 10:34:06
69.   KG16
Anyone want to bet that Kent either demands a trade or retires?
2007-09-21 10:35:05
70.   Vishal
69 no way.
2007-09-21 10:36:16
71.   sporky
69 - I'm pretty sure he'll be back.
2007-09-21 10:36:45
72.   kinbote
this is a fitting ending to a wasted year. bad offseason, worse season, and now strife in the clubhouse. at least we signed kyle bla--
2007-09-21 10:37:25
73.   Kevin Lewis
53

And Kent was the guy saying that these players are not his friends, so I wonder if this is just a different type of respect for the game. Did Kent want the young guys to come running over to his locker looking for advice? Or was he really offering it to deaf ears? Kent does not strike me as the type you could go and shoot the breeze with or ask about your game.

2007-09-21 10:37:46
74.   Terry A
71 - He'd better be.

(This is so fun.)

2007-09-21 10:38:37
75.   Howard Fox
67 sorry, I meant to say retired or demand a trade...same thing
2007-09-21 10:38:42
76.   Kevin Lewis
69

I would be perfectly happy with that. It might be best for Kent and the team.

2007-09-21 10:38:44
77.   dzzrtRatt
Just as a thought exercise, how would you feel if what Branch Rickey says in 51 and 62 was absolutely true...that, talented as Kemp, Loney, Martin, Ethier, LaRoche and Abreu might be, they avoid rather than embrace "Preparation, hard work, no showiness, respect for the game, respect for elders of the game," and instead have "a sense of entitlement."

I would find it hard to believe this about most of them. Especially Martin. But what if it was true? What can Colletti/Little do about it?

2007-09-21 10:39:06
78.   Wilbert Robinson
66 - Also the player Kent was benched in favor of was Chico Walker who was 34 at the time and had bounced around the league for 13 years. 1993 was his final year in MLB.
2007-09-21 10:39:23
79.   Howard Fox
73 unless your name happens to be Harley Davidson
2007-09-21 10:41:07
80.   regfairfield
77 I thought "acting like you should already be there" was considered a good thing in baseball circles. If it's true, I would hope they do nothing.
2007-09-21 10:41:25
81.   Howard Fox
77 easy...Little needs to have a philosophy and stick to it...PVL's or youth...a regular lineup...

if we are totally frustrated by a lineup that changes daily with no rhyme or reason, how should the players feel?

2007-09-21 10:42:41
82.   Branch Rickey
77- Umm careful. That is a bad misquote of what I said. I did NOT say that all of those players avoid all of those things. There is a general sense that younger players do not embrace all of those things to the same extent their elders did. And Martin is most certainly an exception according to everyone I've ever heard offer an opinion.
2007-09-21 10:44:00
83.   Kevin Lewis
77

If that was true about some of them, than I hope this poorly timed vent by Kent helps right the ship on work ethic. I would love to have players with the personalities of Kemp, Ethier, and Loney that have the same work ethic as Kent. Can't you have a great work ethic and still be a nice guy?

2007-09-21 10:44:23
84.   Andrew Shimmin
77- Trade them to Tampa Bay?
2007-09-21 10:44:57
85.   Kevin Lewis
81

And this, I think, is the main source of the problem.

2007-09-21 10:45:11
86.   Howard Fox
83 Can't you have a great work ethic and still be a nice guy?

and this leaves Kent where??

2007-09-21 10:46:02
87.   bhsportsguy
Why does Plaschke have to choose a side?

I thought he worded it pretty well when he said that whatever direction the team decides to go in, they will have to do a good job communicating that to their players.

And with everything that Branch Rickey added and the observations that Tony Jackson put in his piece, I still think while you can think what you want about Jeff Kent, I think blame can placed on a lot of people including some of those kids that everyone wants to see play.

I know that when I started doing what I do, sure I may have wondered why people who were there before me might have dones things and even thought I could do things better but I certainly respected what they did because back when I started, those were the pioneers so to speak in my particular profession.

And I have always tried to help others as I felt those before helped me.

So I can empathize when you don't think those who come after you are not interested in what you might have to say.

I don't think they are telling how to hit certain pitcher or things like that but just how to be a major leaguer and what that means, that what I sense.

2007-09-21 10:47:21
88.   MC Safety
59-Barry McGuire's might be the most famous but I quite fancy the Byrds rendition.
2007-09-21 10:49:58
89.   Vishal
87 he doesn't really. when i wrote him, i left open the possibility that his article "was meant as an artistic attempt at metaphor for the Dodgers' own indecision". that's a little more subtle than plaschke typically goes for though.
2007-09-21 10:50:10
90.   Johnny Nucleo
I don't think there are any villains for the way the Dodgers did this year. Not Ned, not Grady, and not the veterans. We knew at the beginning of the year it was going to be a youth movement on the fly. Face it: there were a lot of question marks at the beginning of the year - Kemp couldn't hit breaking balls, Ethier had a poor Aug/Sept, and Loney (aside from the monster game in Colorado) didn't look like he could hit for power. Gonzalez and Nomar provided depth in case the youngsters didn't work out. Recall that Nomar had a great first half of 2006. It was NOT obvious in the spring that he would have such a terrible year.
But the kids worked out - and then there were 10 starters for 8 positions, and musical lineups began. It's a tough situation to manage in. Cycling people in and out was the best way to deal with a bad situation, in my opinion. And look at comment 30 - it's not as if Gonzo was playing terribly enough to warrant being benched.
2007-09-21 10:50:56
91.   Howard Fox
87 Plaschke just seems, to me at least, to change sides every few days...

Didn't he espouse the youth movement last week?

And now he seems to favor the vets...

Both are right, and both are wrong...in this as with all things, it starts at the top...and no, I don't mean McCourt...owners hire GM and Managers who are supposed to know baseball...if there is a problem, and it appears there is, it rests at Coletti & Little's doorstep

2007-09-21 10:52:06
92.   MC Safety
And to chime in on the old news that was Maurinho. Good riddance. This year is Arsenal's for the taking! Go Gunners!
2007-09-21 10:52:06
93.   Andrew Shimmin
I think blame can placed on a lot of people including some of those kids that everyone wants to see play.

Fair enough. Blame for what?

2007-09-21 10:52:18
94.   Kevin Lewis
86

Maybe understanding that not everyone needs to approach the game the way he does. Kent seems to have a great work ethic and respect for the game, but he doesn't seem like he is willing to be buddy buddy with the other members of the team. Can you imagine Kent running over to Furcal and doing the jump/bump thing Loney, Ethier and Kemp do?

Do we expect to see a response from the Dodgers today?

2007-09-21 10:53:27
95.   blue22
Kent's production will be difficult to replace, especially with the void at 3rd that is currently in place. I don't think LA should just send Kent on his grumpy way to prove a point.
2007-09-21 10:55:17
96.   Howard Fox
94 The Dodgers already said there will be no response.

In many circles, in the old school, that jump thing is a form of showing up the other team, something athletes in all sports are supposed to learn not to do.

2007-09-21 10:55:56
97.   bhsportsguy
93 That is a good question, I am not exactly sure myself.

Boy Andrew, leave it to you to get to root of something that we have been commenting on for almost a whole day.

2007-09-21 10:56:26
98.   sporky
94 - Can you imagine Kent running over to Furcal and doing the jump/bump thing Loney, Ethier and Kemp do?

I might die laughing.

If Ned has to spend money on a veteran, he might as well bring in a nice, outgoing veteran (i.e. A-Rod with a personality transplant).

2007-09-21 10:59:49
99.   fanerman
98 A personality transplant incentive could seal the deal for getting A-Rod. $30-35 mil/yr and the most popular guy in LA.
2007-09-21 11:02:29
100.   Kevin Lewis
96

I thought I saw that there would be no response on Thursday, but that sort of implied there might be some sort of response. I wonder what bp will be like today

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-09-21 11:03:00
101.   blue22
99 - Kobe, ARod, and Beckham in LA at the same time? How lucky for Los Angelenos. The Smug levels would go through the roof.
2007-09-21 11:03:08
102.   underdog
94 "Do we expect to see a response from the Dodgers today?" That's a good question, too. I wonder if there will be a closed door meeting of some kind. The kind of "air it out" meeting they should have had a while ago. Kent just mis-timed his public breakdown!
2007-09-21 11:05:56
103.   KG16
101 - we're use to smug, we deal with the Emmy's and Oscar's every year.
2007-09-21 11:07:15
104.   Bob Timmermann
What's the point in having a team meeting now to "sort things out" with just nine games left?
2007-09-21 11:08:15
105.   Eric Enders
94 According to Tony Jackson, the Dodgers have already said they will have no comment.

I wonder about Kent's motivation. If his aim is to force management to go in one direction or the other -- either youth or veterans -- then he's fighting a losing battle, because everyone knows what the choice would be. Even someone as dim as Colletti has steadfastly avoided busting up the nucleus of young players.

What I suspect is this: Kent cares about baseball more than he likes to let on. He's not stupid, either; he sees what happens on the field. He realizes that these kids he lashed out at represent the only chance he has left to ever win a World Series. Next year, the kids can and perhaps will carry Kent to that World Series. I think his comments were specifically meant, in typical brusque Kent fashion, to encourage some of the young guys to change their approach entering next season. Whether their approach needs changing is very debatable, but I think Kent is coming from a genuine place. I think he really thinks the only way to win is to approach the game the same way he does.

Now, about the young guys -- having followed most of them for many years, having interviewed many of them, having spent a little bit of time in the clubhouse --- I have to say I have no idea where Kent's coming from on this. These guys don't act like know-it-alls; they seem to be properly humble and dedicated to their profession. In the clubhouse they're deferential and seen-and-not-heard most of the time. And from everything I've seen and heard, all of them except perhaps LaRoche carry themselves with a demeanor that's respectful of the veterans.

2007-09-21 11:08:17
106.   Howard Fox
102 boy would I love to be a fly on the wall of that meeting...with Little wrapping it up at the end with "can't we all just be friends"
2007-09-21 11:08:37
107.   fanerman
104 Jeff Kent is gonna curse out the kids, hop on his motorcycle, and ride into the sunset. Until next season.
2007-09-21 11:09:21
108.   Andrew Shimmin
Have the young players sort of been given carte blanche to retaliate in any way they like? They've already been called out for nothing anybody can figure out. Why not go out and earn it?
2007-09-21 11:09:21
109.   RELX
I would like to ask Kent is exactly what veterans is he talking about? Let's look at it by position. Did he want Lieberthal playing over Martin? Saenz over Loney? At third base, Nomar has been hurt for the last month, and is obviously still hurt or he would be playing everyday. Is he really saying that Shea Hillenbrand or Ramon Martinez should have been playing everyday at third? (And Hillenbrand certainly got his chance.)

In the outfield, Pierre plays everyday, and Ethier was a starter at the beginning of the season. By process of elimination, I think Kent is talking about LuGo, as he is the only healthy veteran who has been denied playing time over the second half of the season. And I think that LuGo is the source of much of the dissension on the team. The guy clearly thinks he is still the player he was five years ago, as evidenced by comments that he wants to play two, three more seasons. To be honest, I think that Grady has managed the outfield situation well. Ethier and Kemp have played the majority of the time, and LuGo has produced well over the pat six weeks playing part-time, which is as much as he can be expected to do at age 40.

2007-09-21 11:11:32
110.   Kevin Lewis
105

I see. I misread the article. I saw it as they would have no response by the end of yesterday.

2007-09-21 11:12:44
111.   dzzrtRatt
82 Actually, I hope I made it clear I was asking a hypothetical. Some have read Kent's comments as implying there is a difference in work ethic. I have no idea if that's true, and I wasn't suggesting you were making such an assertion either.

My theme for the past few weeks has been Grady Little's mismanagement of the whole situation. Not to underestimate it was a difficult situation, but Grady did not rise to the challenge. It's up to the manager, not the PVLs, to instill a work ethic and enforce rules. It's also up to the manager and the GM to handle disgruntled veterans who don't like losing playing time. Two months ago, Little needed to establish a set lineup, or a set platoon and stick with it. Instead, it looked like he was always playing politics with the lineup, using the canoe theory pioneered by Jerry Brown: Paddle a little to the left and a little to the right. Nomar tonight, LaRoche tomorrow. And instead of a happy clubhouse, which was his obvious objective, he has a miserable clubhouse.

This is the kind of scenario that often leads to a manager getting fired. While the instability of yet another change bothers me, I think Grady's all wrong for this team and should be dismissed.

Mike Scioscia has handled far more turmoil than this, and look where the Angels are. It doesn't have to be this bad.

2007-09-21 11:14:56
112.   Jon Weisman
105 - I think that's a spot-on comment.
2007-09-21 11:17:25
113.   Jon Weisman
Phil Wallace at SoCal Sports Observed:

http://www.laobserved.com/sports/2007/09/kent_complains.php

"Meanwhile, across the Colorado River, the Arizona Diamondbacks have led the NL West for weeks, boasting a team that is much younger and less experienced than the Dodgers. In the middle of a pennant race, the Diamondbacks are regularly starting "kids" such as Justin Upton, Stephen Drew, Conor Jackson, Chris Young, Chris Snyder, Mark Reynolds, Carlos Quentin, and Micah Owings. While the D'Backs do have a relatively experienced pitching staff, the only real veteran in their offensive lineup right now is Eric Byrnes as Arizona has dealt with its own spate of injuries to Orlando Hudson, Chad Tracy, and Randy Johnson. They also made no major moves at the trade deadline. So while some blame the Dodgers struggles on youth and inexperience, the Diamondbacks are winning with it. "

2007-09-21 11:17:37
114.   Branch Rickey
111. Gotcha. The way it reads is " hypothetically, what if Branch said is true." Sorry I misinterpreted. I'm a big fan of your posts! Carry on.
2007-09-21 11:18:36
115.   underdog
104 Just so there are no strangulations?
2007-09-21 11:19:26
116.   regfairfield
111 So why wasn't Grady's handling of the team a problem last year? Why wasn't it a problem when Jose Cruz Jr. got replaced by Ethier and Kemp, or Billingsley grabbed Tomko's slot in the rotation, or Russell Martin got his job instead of Sandy Alomar, or Kuo got a playoff start instead of Penny.

There were almost just as many young players transitioned in last year as there was this year, yet these things weren't an issue. Sometimes, teams just lose regardless of the temperament of their manager.

2007-09-21 11:20:28
117.   regfairfield
113 And ironically, their young players have universally stunk while ours have been great.
2007-09-21 11:22:44
118.   underdog
111 I like Grady Little, and definitely think he made a ton of in-game management mistakes the past month especially, and that you may be right that he's not the right fit for this team. I've said it before; he may just be too nice. He wants everyone to be happy which on this team would be impossible. He needed to have laid down the law and just stuck with it - preferably with a mostly youngster lineup. Anyone gripes about playing time? Then it's on them, they're the ones who look selfish. I'm not sure I want the Lou Pinella type for the Dodgers either - or Scioscia for that matter - but there may be a better fit out there. Still, I blame Colletti more than Little for creating the chemical imbalance on the roster in the first place.
2007-09-21 11:22:56
119.   Howard Fox
116 but it was a problem last year...Anderson for Ethier in September...just to name one
2007-09-21 11:23:24
120.   Branch Rickey
116. Right. And Murray was the hitting coach last year when the team scored more runs than any team in LA history. When things go bad, coaches get blamed and then fired. Don't try to make sense of it.
2007-09-21 11:24:14
121.   Vishal
117 i wouldn't say universally... chris young has hit 30 homers and stole some bases (though not much else), and mark reynolds and uh.. micah owings have been decent.
2007-09-21 11:24:45
122.   Branch Rickey
119. How was that a problem? I think that just proves that Grady plays who he thinks is right.
2007-09-21 11:25:15
123.   Howard Fox
118 I don't like Coletti either, but you can't blame chemistry on him...that is the hardest thing to quantify and you never know until the team is together how they will be...and besides, who cares...some of the great teams in history had no chemistry...
2007-09-21 11:27:22
124.   regfairfield
117 Chris Young has a .293 on base percentage. I'll give you Reynolds.
2007-09-21 11:27:26
125.   Terry A
123 - I absolutely disagree in this case. Colletti came in making all sorts of noise about only wanting "good chemistry" guys. If you want to crow about such things, you'd better be ready to take the heat when your chemistry experiment blows up in your face.
2007-09-21 11:27:41
126.   Howard Fox
121 bottom line is they find ways to win
2007-09-21 11:28:58
127.   kinbote
111 - your criticisms of little are valid, but he was in a no-win position even before the season started. we knew gonzo would be upset if he wasn't an "everyday" player; we'd already heard the grumblings from tomko & hendrickson; we even knew pierre [gasp] preferred not to miss any games. (then there's nomar, who's a legend.) against this backdrop, little was essentially forced to ride the veterans as long as he could. and when we were winning, who could argue? but, as Jon and others pointed out throughout the year, we were never really that good, even when we were in first place.
2007-09-21 11:29:22
128.   regfairfield
126 Yeah, with their veterans.
2007-09-21 11:32:02
129.   underdog
126 With mirrors.

And Eric Byrnes.

Seriously, Byrnes and Holliday made such a big difference on their respective teams this year.

2007-09-21 11:32:08
130.   bhsportsguy
118 Last year, the outfield situation was different, Drew was already on a 130 game plan, Lofton was going to sit too even before he got hurt, Cruz couldn't hit left-handed and then Repko got hurt.

Ethier and Kemp didn't have anyone looking over their shoulders. Same for Russell Martin.

Grady booted Tomko out of the rotation at the end of June and he never got back.

This year was different because it wasn't injuries that forced the issue and the level of veteraness, namely Gonzalez and to some extent Garciaparra is a lot different than Jose Cruz and Sandy Alomar.

So circumstances this year were different but it wasn't as if this could not have been foreseen either.

2007-09-21 11:32:29
131.   Howard Fox
128 how can you say that...can you say definitively that our losses are because of the vets of the kids...can you say our wins are attributable to the kids or the vets...no, you can't...some teams find ways to win, some don't, its that simple...
2007-09-21 11:35:15
132.   regfairfield
131 It's pretty simple. Byrnes, Hudson, Webb: great seasons. Every starter except Owings and Davis: terrible seasons. Ergo, most of their wins can be attributed to those three guys.
2007-09-21 11:36:09
133.   Howard Fox
132 you could say the same thing about Penny and Saito and Martin...so what does it mean?
2007-09-21 11:36:32
134.   bhsportsguy
127 I think if there was a really good team, balanced in hitting and pitching in this division, I think a lot of fans could say okay, this was not our year, but the four teams all have strengths, AZ, SD, and LA was mainly some good starters and a solid bullpen and for the Rockies a really good offense but sporatic pitching and cannot win on the road.

If there the Red Sox or Angels were in the division, you could point out the differences and the balance but even with all the hiccups, two weeks ago we were right there and I think that is what makes this tough right now.

2007-09-21 11:37:09
135.   Eric Enders
128 A guy who hits 30 home runs and steals 30 bases and plays excellent center field defense doesn't "stink." Not even if he has a .298 OPB. Young has 16 win shares, which is more than any Dodger rookie.
2007-09-21 11:37:42
136.   Eric Enders
That was meant for 124
2007-09-21 11:39:13
137.   regfairfield
135 I am actually surprised to see he has 15.3 VORP, since generally anyone with a sub .300 on base ends up replacement level. Combine this with his defense and he has been a decent player this year. I stand corrected.
2007-09-21 11:39:22
138.   Frip
Kent is especially annoying because he's one of those guys with a know-it-all demeanor yet isn't nearly bright enough to swim in know-it-all waters.

And we're supposed to spend 3 days trying to decipher the cryptic nonsense of this motorhead?

2007-09-21 11:40:51
139.   underdog
Honestly, I think trying to figure out the DBacks this year could make one's head explode. I just want to figure out what went wrong with our team and it may be true that there's less logic and reason behind it than we may think. But: injuries to starting pitching were one; random mix of veterans and ever-changing line-ups may be another; mistakes on the field, fielding and baserunning, and two weak-armed outfielders, may be another still. Mix in luck and you have a playoff miss.
2007-09-21 11:42:32
140.   Howard Fox
139 and with all of that, if we had won, everyone would be saying how Little was a genius with his balancing act
2007-09-21 11:42:59
141.   dzzrtRatt
116 Jose Cruz, Jr. isn't Luis Gonzalez. Sandy Alomar Jr. isn't Nomar Garciaparra. It's one thing to move a journeyman vet out of the way for a prospect, it's another to move former MVPs with lots of playoff credentials, players who are used to adulation.

I also don't remember so many weird lineups last season. His pitching changes have been peculiar, too. He seems to have different standards for different players. If LuGo is hitting well, fine, play him till he cools down. But why give so many starts to Ramon Martinez when you had LaRoche, Abreu and Betemit available? Why bat what few power hitters we have 8th and bat players like Martinez and Pierre so high in the lineup? Why not insist on putting Furcal on the DL?

Yes, "sometimes teams just lose," and who knows if a more consistent approach would've made a difference. But combine the questionable decisions with disappointing results--and note that Colletti's "chemistry" goal was also apparently not reached--and you have to wonder, what's the case for keeping Grady around?

2007-09-21 11:45:23
142.   bigcpa
I too had to read the Plaschke column a few times to get his point. He says "it became clear the Dodgers would have to trade a prospect to contend for a championship... [Ned decided not to.]... "it seemed like a good idea at the time." Then he concludes this was the wrong call, evidenced by the fractured clubhouse.

Apparently Plaschke missed the part where Atlanta acquired Teixeira then ran in place for 6 weeks. If Plaschke had some knowledge of an even better deal Ned passed up he should enlighten us.

Then the real laugher. He cites discontent among Kent, Gonzo, Nomar "even though most of the kids were outplaying them." So the answer was to trade prospects for more vets? He could have just written the same column under the header "veteran movement a flop."

2007-09-21 11:45:41
143.   Howard Fox
141 you have to wonder, what's the case for keeping Grady around?

I know...I know!!!

he is fun at the company chrismas party??

2007-09-21 11:47:22
144.   D4P
note that Colletti's "chemistry" goal was also apparently not reached

I think someone really needs to confront Ned about this.

2007-09-21 11:50:05
145.   bhsportsguy
141 I think you might be remembering the week that Kent was out and Martinez played for him most of that week, all three of the players you mentioned were not on the team at that time. Two were hurt and one was in the Big Apple.

And sadly, for a good part of August, Martinez led the team in RBI.

2007-09-21 11:51:26
146.   MollyKnight
To me, Grady's pitching substitutions were more infuriating than anything else. Situations where he let pitchers hit with the bases loaded and two outs in a tight game only to remove them in the middle of the next inning were spirit crushing. But then, he's not a man with a great history of removing pitchers.
2007-09-21 11:52:01
147.   Howard Fox
145 highlight of the season, and pointing out our futility...Martinez the poster child for success: 25 hits resulting in 27 RBI's
2007-09-21 11:52:29
148.   MollyKnight
Also, I don't know if this is more reflective of the market, or of Ned, but he hasn't made one signing yet that made me leap out of my chair, except maybe inking Saito again this year. But as far as free agents, no.
2007-09-21 11:53:47
149.   regfairfield
141 The case is that every other manager in baseball is exactly the same, and getting a new one just seems like a waste of resources.

I do agree that we're seeing more weird allegiances to players this year and last.

I just have trouble getting on the "Dodgers need for fire" bandwagon since whenever we do get someone with said fire (Bradley, Penny) he ends up getting villianized by the media.

142 Yeah, but they'd be even worse of without Teixiera who has hit .322/.404/.611 for them, and, more importantly, will be there next year. The impact of trading deadline acquisitions is pretty overstated and even in the best case scenario that Atlanta has, he'll mean only a couple extra wins. I still like the deal, simply because the Braves realized that 2007/2008 was their last real shot at a championship for a while, and they went all out to achieve it. I have no problem mortgaging the future when there isn't one. Sure, they could have been good, but it seems like an 87 wins sort of good.

2007-09-21 11:54:00
150.   kinbote
kent's entitled to his say, even it doesn't make any sense. he'll be back--probably in his last year before retiring and waiting for the hall of fame--and he's hardly a problem spot for next year. abreu can spell him and there are no incentives for him to chase (expect for a ring).

what i'm wondering is will this team get younger or older in the offseason?

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-09-21 11:55:35
151.   RELX
I think the major problem with being a Dodger fan these days is that their is a lack of trust with every aspect of management. There is not one figure on the team--whether it be the manager, general manager or owner--that you can point to and say, "we trust him to do the right thing." McCourt, Colletti and Little all have very mixed records, and that makes it difficult to feel confident in the direction of the team. Would firing Little solve some of the problems? Would firing Colletti? Or, do all the troubles stem from ownership? When Peter O'Malley owned the team, there was the strong belief that he would guide it in the right direction (even, if in retrospect, he made plenty of mistakes.) This trust is currenly absent.
2007-09-21 11:57:14
152.   sporky
148 - Signing Loaiza didn't make me weep for joy, but I think it was a decent move. If I have to commit to a mediocre pitcher, I feel much better with Loaiza for 1 year over a 3/$30M deal for Livan Hernandez (or whomever).

Although it does speak volumes when I'm relieved by a trade/deal/signing not because of the value of the player, but because of the disaster that could have been.

2007-09-21 11:58:19
153.   kinbote
151 - logan white
2007-09-21 11:58:23
154.   Wilbert Robinson
KFWB has yesterday's Dodger Talk wherein you can hear the actual interview with Kent.

http://www.kfwb.com/pages/7789.php

2007-09-21 11:58:33
155.   King of the Hobos
148 Speaking of free agent signings only, that has more to do with market than Ned. I can think of very few free agent signings that caused anyone to leap out of their chairs, at least in excitement (I may have leapt out of my chair in disgust after the Pierre deal was announced).
2007-09-21 11:59:16
156.   sporky
152 - Not that Loaiza = FA, but still..
2007-09-21 12:02:29
157.   regfairfield
148 The Schmidt signing was pretty nice. Unless Ned did something like "physical? Nah" it's still a great move regardless of the result.

But in comparison, how many really exciting signings did DePo make? Kent was the only one that I got really excited about. Evans never made one, Malone certainly made splashy ones but he paid way too much for them. Exciting free agent signings seem to be few and far between.

2007-09-21 12:04:23
158.   fanerman
157 Derek Lowe? He's at least been pretty good.

Who signed Furcal? Either way I thought that was a good move, regardless of his bum ankle playing this season.

2007-09-21 12:06:17
159.   RELX
151. I thought of him as well.
2007-09-21 12:06:30
160.   KG16
I'm still trying to make sense of this season, and quite frankly, I can't. Looking at the stats, th Dodgers should win the NL West - only Colorado has a better offense, only San Diego has better pitching, and the difference between the Dodgers pitching numbers and the Padres aren't glaring. Yet, for whatever reason, the Dodgers are in forth place in the division.

The only thing I can come up with is an old school feeling that stats don't matter nearly as much as some would like to believe. Ultimately, it comes down to winning games and some teams find a way to win (Arizona), while other teams don't.

2007-09-21 12:06:54
161.   regfairfield
158 It's worked out very well, but I remember spending a lot of time defending that move by saying he'd be "solid". I didn't actually imagine he'd be more than a third starter.

Also, you're right, Furcal was a great signing by Ned.

2007-09-21 12:06:55
162.   sporky
158 - Ned did.

Furcal apparently wants to extend his contract. I wonder how that will play out.

2007-09-21 12:07:17
163.   D4P
Exciting free agent signings seem to be few and far between

I agree. I'd also like to see some kind of analysis that examines whether or not and to what extent free agent signings contribute to team success.

2007-09-21 12:08:20
164.   Vishal
funny stat about arizona: micah owings leads the team in OPS :)
2007-09-21 12:09:23
165.   Howard Fox
even funnier stat about Arizona...they have the best record in the NL
2007-09-21 12:10:03
166.   King of the Hobos
158 Lowe has worked, but no one was excited about him. He had just come off a season where he had an ERA over 5, and he's not exactly your typical dominant pitcher. That he has worked out well is the story of most free agent signings, most are unexciting and either become good or bad. Arizona's best hitter was a free agent, but how many people were really excited about signing Eric Byrnes?
2007-09-21 12:12:04
167.   fanerman
161 166 Well, it makes me wonder if Lowe's performed to DePo's expectations or if he, too, was surprised at how he's turned out.
2007-09-21 12:13:53
168.   regfairfield
167 I don't know if I thought he'd be this good, but he certainly knew what he was doing. I remember his explanation was that Dodger Stadium would be the biggest pitchers park in the majors if it weren't so home run friendly, and Lowe doesn't allow home runs, so Lowe is a great fit for the Dodgers.
2007-09-21 12:14:15
169.   fracule
I don't get too much LA spin up here, but has anyone heard Nomar's thoughts on all this. His willingness to conform to the plan before makes me think that he'll be ready to compete for a job in spring training. I'm certainly not ready to push him out the door (unless we sign A-Rod of course), and would like to see the two time AL batting champ bring his numbers back and earn the job at third base.
2007-09-21 12:14:59
170.   underdog
Sigh. This is gonna be a really long off-season.
2007-09-21 12:16:52
171.   Bob Timmermann
Arizona's record is 2 1/2 games behind the Yankees.
2007-09-21 12:17:05
172.   fanerman
170 Yeah, if there are gonna be lots of days like this. I don't know how I'll get through work.
2007-09-21 12:17:09
173.   CanuckDodger
149 -- What is Loney's batting line in the same time that Teixeira has played for the Braves? People who regret that we didn't get Teixeira don't seem to understand that in Atlanta Teixeira replaced Julio Franco. That is something much different than replacing James Loney. And it is not like we could have even got Teixeira for Loney alone. Two out of Billingsley, Kemp, Ethier, and Broxton would have had to have been sent to Texas along with Loney AND Kershaw to get Teixeira. I think it is pretty safe to say that we would have been out of contention a month ago had we acquired Teixeira on those terms. So, bottom line, though it looked for a while like there might be hope for him, Plashke is once again back to being a blithering moron, just for thinking that the Dodgers made a choice between "saving the prospects" and "winning a championship."
2007-09-21 12:17:21
174.   Bob Timmermann
171
Which was to imply that Arizona is playing well, not that the NL stinks.
2007-09-21 12:18:41
175.   Jon Weisman
I don't think even the hardest-core stat lover denies that when you play the games, even 162 of them, unexpected things happen. It's all about playing the odds and then hoping for the best.
2007-09-21 12:19:33
176.   bhsportsguy
163 Key Free Agents

Just looking at 2006 winter signings.

Boston - Dice-K, Drew, Lugo
LA Angels - Gary Mathews Jr.
Arizona - Doug Davis (or was he a trade)
San Diego - Greg Maddux
New York Mets - Moises Alou
Chicago - Alfonso Soriano, Jason Marquis, Ted Lilly (re-signed Ramirez and reupped Zambrano)

Those are the few I can think of on teams currently in the playoffs. While they and the other teams in the playoff hunt have players that they signed in previous years, I only focused on this past off-season.

2007-09-21 12:19:50
177.   regfairfield
173 I don't know if that's specifically directed at me, but I never suggested the Dodgers should have done it, but it was a great fit for the Braves. Heck, I even argued that a Loney for Tex straight up trade was a terrible idea.
2007-09-21 12:19:56
178.   Bob Timmermann
Texeira's OPS in Atlanta is 1.016.

Loney's OPS since August 1 is .872.

2007-09-21 12:22:18
179.   King of the Hobos
163 It is my theory that they rarely help much at all. Defining "free agent signing" as any deal where the player was given a good deal of money with the intention of being a starter (or primary reliever), the DBacks have zero. None. Their actual free agents include Byrnes (signed as a 5th OF), Tony Clark (PH), Wickman (reliever/castoff), Bill Murphy (see Wickman), and Augie Ojeda (utility infielder).

The Padres have 2 significant free agents, Greg Maddux and Marcus Giles. The Indians free agents include Paul Byrd, David Dellucci, Jason Michaels, Trot Nixon, Joe Borowski, and Roberto Hernandez.

2007-09-21 12:22:24
180.   Bob Timmermann
The Cubs had a 4-1 lead after one and now trail 6-5. There are rumblings in Thief River Falls over Cesar Izturis.
2007-09-21 12:23:14
181.   D4P
178
Which was to imply that Tayshera is playing well, not that Loney stinks.
2007-09-21 12:23:39
182.   Howard Fox
175 I guess that is the basis for the saying "that is why they play the games"
2007-09-21 12:23:44
183.   regfairfield
176 Davis was a sign and trade.
2007-09-21 12:24:59
184.   Bluebleeder87
The copy editors of the Times didn't quite get the subtlety, either. Their print headline for the column's jump: The youth movement is a flop.

I was gonna say Jon, I was hearing T.J Simers earlier today & BELIEVE me, him & Plashke don't like the youth movement (plashke seems like a johnny come lately with his retraction) I don't know I don't trust neither of them anymore, OLD HOMERS!

2007-09-21 12:25:41
185.   Jon Weisman
182 - Right. Team wins and losses matter most in the end. That doesn't mean you throw out the individual stats in figuring out how to get those wins.
2007-09-21 12:26:28
186.   fanerman
184 You should have never trusted them in the first place.
2007-09-21 12:27:52
187.   Andrew Shimmin
169- I can't imagine Nomar wants any part of whatever this melee is. If there really is a vast, old-guy conspiracy in the clubhouse, they picked the right spokesman.
2007-09-21 12:27:54
188.   Kevin Lewis
154

Thanks for the link. That is worth listening to. Kent just sounds frustrated at possibly the lack of frustration by some of the rookies about the season slipping away. That is what it seems like to me.

2007-09-21 12:29:22
189.   Kevin Lewis
If anything it goes to show that a print out of comments never does justice to the tone used in the interview.
2007-09-21 12:29:30
190.   Bob Timmermann
Doug Davis was acquired in a trade.

The transaction on MLB.com reads:

11/25/06 Acquired LHP Doug Davis, LHP Dana Eveland and OF David Krynzel from Milwaukee for RHP Greg Aquino, C Johnny Estrada and RHP Claudio Vargas.

2007-09-21 12:31:43
191.   underdog
179 Roberto Hernandez? Um...
2007-09-21 12:32:10
192.   bhsportsguy
184 This is T.J.'s major issue, which at first most here would agree with, the Dodgers have won 1 playoff game in 19 years.

However, he can't seem to handle that despite this, Dodger fans don't react by not showing up at the ballpark. So while he berates the team, he also belittles those who show up.

2007-09-21 12:34:44
193.   Linkmeister
If you've got access to NPR, Danica, DT's offical math poster girl, is on Science Friday talking about her new book ("Math doesn't suck") right now.
2007-09-21 12:37:14
194.   King of the Hobos
191 That reminds me, I forgot Aaron Fultz.

The Indians signed 4 relievers to shore up their pen in the offseason. Roberto was obviously released after 26 innings of 6+ ERA, Borowski is still going strong as closer, despite an ERA of over 5, Fultz has been decent for the innings he's pitched (only 33), and Keith Foulke retired before pitching. Hopefully Ned realizes the Indians' mistake.

2007-09-21 12:37:21
195.   underdog
TJ Simers and Plaschke both should have turned in their "sportswriter" licenses years ago. The fact that the Times continues to print both of them and all their dribblings makes me incredibly sad. Bring back Mike Downey and Scott Ostler! Reanimate Jim Murray!
2007-09-21 12:37:45
196.   ToyCannon
Once upon a time a great young SS came up and the incumbent SS felt he was being disrespected, because they were giving his position to the kid. He felt the kid should have to play out of position not him.

The veteran was oblivious to the fact he himself was not a good SS anymore and that the kid at age 22 was already better then he'd been at the peak of his career.

If Nomar has any memory at all, he'll know what it feels like to have veterans bagging on the kids over playing time.

2007-09-21 12:38:04
197.   Bob Timmermann
I am convinced that no one will win the game at Wrigley today. Or it will take nine hours to complete.
2007-09-21 12:38:30
198.   underdog
194 Colletti's not that dumb. If he resigns Hernandez I will go TP Ned's house, seriously.
2007-09-21 12:39:21
199.   fanerman
198 I'll go with you. We can make a road trip out of it.
2007-09-21 12:39:24
200.   dzzrtRatt
196 Who was that shortstop? I was waiting for Paul Harvey to tell the rrrest...of the story.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2007-09-21 12:41:39
201.   Bob Timmermann
200
And that little shortstop, whom nobody loved, grew up to be ... John Valentin.
2007-09-21 12:41:41
202.   Eric Enders
It was John Valentin. I'd forgotten about that, but yeah, he made a huge stink over Nomar taking his job.
2007-09-21 12:42:06
203.   ToyCannon
200
They named a day in Feb after him.
2007-09-21 12:42:33
204.   underdog
199 Gotta hit Costco first for the 30 pack of TP. Especially if he brings Saenz back, too.

I actually like the quotes from Jeff Kent in Diamond Leung's latest posting, that were said during spring training.

2007-09-21 12:43:00
205.   underdog
203 Oh yeah, Phil Groundhog, great shortstop in his day.
2007-09-21 12:43:30
206.   silverwidow
Neal Huntington will be named Pirates GM (per Rotoworld)

Logan is safe!

2007-09-21 12:44:49
207.   Bob Timmermann
Boston Globe 2/26/1997

BOB RYAN

FORT MYERS, Fla. -- John Valentin knows the public relations battle is over already, and that he has lost.

"Am I concerned that people are going to think I'm selfish?" he inquires. "Well, sure."

The way John Q. Public sees it, John Valentin should just shut up and play ball. Aren't they paying him, what, almost $4 million? So what difference does it make whether he's in the lineup at shortstop, second base, or even long relief? If Nomar Garciaparra turns out to be a better defensive shortstop, then Valentin should be a mensch and move to, to . . . That's it. Where?

Tim Naehring just got his well-deserved new contract. He's the third baseman. Wil Cordero has been anointed the second baseman, and if he falters, there's spunky Jeff Frye, who really is a second baseman. And does anyone have any idea whether Valentin could make the tricky move from short to second after spending his entire baseball life on the left side of the diamond?

No one seems to care how Valentin thinks or feels, least of all general manager Dan Duquette, whose apparent belief is that as long as you are able to throw money at a player, all personnel problems are solved.

And the fans just happen to be in an unforgiving mood these days. They see Valentin as just one more in a seemingly endless line of whiny, ungrateful, overpaid, and just-plain-spoiled athletes.

"I think if I could sit down with every fan individually, I'd get them to come away sympathetic to my position," Valentin sighs. "But we know that just isn't possible."

Valentin's position is this: He believes his best position is shortstop. He thinks he's a decent shortstop, and he knows he can hit. He thinks he could play third, but with Naehring over there, that's a moot point. He may or may not be able to play second. Given a choice, he would rather play shortstop somewhere else than be stuck in what he refers to as "foreign territory" at another position. He'll play second if they ask, but he'd like to do it under circumstances that would help him to succeed. Is that too much to ask?

2007-09-21 12:45:15
208.   Branch Rickey
192. I think it's an exercise in futility to analyze TJ Simers opinion. It's like analyzing what a monkey is thinking when it throws it excrement at another monkey. I don't believe he even has an opinion. Just a desire to incite (as opposed to provide insight).
2007-09-21 12:45:24
209.   fanerman
206 Yay! That free agent signing made me leap out of my chair.
2007-09-21 12:45:51
210.   ToyCannon
I just broke a tooth. On a noodle. 102nd sign that I'm getting old.
2007-09-21 12:46:14
211.   Eric Enders
Remember, this isn't the first time Kent's expressed consternation at the youth movement. At the time he signed his extension he said something like they promised him there wouldn't be a youth movement, which is the only reason he agreed to re-sign.

Anyway, I look forward to 2021, when Loney will be losing his job to some young guy and Kemp will be complaining how all the young players don't have work ethics anymore.

2007-09-21 12:46:30
212.   Frip
I don't mean this sarcastically, but I'm sort of glad we didn't get into the playoffs. For one reason: I really couldn't endure seeing Pierre predictably ground-out in crucial situations. And there would be MANY crucial situations because we're not that good, so the games would be nail biters all the way. I just wouldn't want to be put through all that with him. It would literally be TOO frustrating to bare.
2007-09-21 12:49:40
213.   CanuckDodger
177 -- I wasn't implying that you were one of the people who wanted a Teixeira trade. I was wondering if you had Loney's batting average, OBA, and slugging percentage since the trade deadline, since you put up Teixeira's.
2007-09-21 12:50:18
214.   King of the Hobos
211 I look forward to that, because it means that Loney and Kemp were both very productive from now until 2021. Either that, or they left after they reached free agency, and came back when Ned Jr decided he needed some PVL.
2007-09-21 12:50:24
215.   D4P
I just broke a tooth. On a noodle

I suggest cooking the noodles before eating them.

2007-09-21 12:52:46
216.   King of the Hobos
212 But if Pierre had failed in clutch situations during the playoffs, management might have turned on him. It's not likely, but better odds than now, when they seem completely satisfied. Though just to spite us, Pierre probably would have had the game winning infield single to win a crucial game.
2007-09-21 12:54:39
217.   silverwidow
Loney since Aug. 1:

.302/.360/.512

2007-09-21 12:54:42
218.   sporky
204 - After reading his new post, Kent's recent comments seem more melancholy and frustrated.
2007-09-21 12:54:42
219.   fanerman
212 If we saw Pierre in the playoffs, that means we made the playoffs. And that's bigger than my annoyance with Juan.
2007-09-21 12:55:57
220.   Bluebleeder87
154

It sounds different when you hear things live, I'm sure Kent will be back next year, we've got a great team that is only gonna get better, you obviously sense the "time is running out for me" in his voice which is understandable, we're gonna be a great team next year (specially if we get a POWER BAT) like I've said before, you can diffidently understand his frustration.

2007-09-21 12:58:32
221.   Eric Enders
This interview excerpt from a year ago is a little more curious now. This is from a Colletti interview with the L.A. Times on 6/2/06.
---------------------

NC: [Bill Mueller] has won a batting championship, he's been a starting player on World Series champion. The guy's got a heart of gold and is a salt of the earth human being. (I want) people like that.

AK: Those are the type of players you want?

NC: I'd take them every day.

BK: Derek Lowe mentioned after last night's game (a 7-2 win over Philadelphia on June 1) that even the younger guys- Martin, Ethier, Broxton, guys like that- those guys are coming up with that attitude as well. Is that something you knew about the character of the farm system coming in?

NC: Well, Either we got (in the Milton Bradley deal), and I give a lot of credit- there's a few things I can say about that. First, the kids and the veterans have meshed very well. There has been a somewhat uncommon two-way respect, because many times when you try to add kids to a group of veterans it becomes territorial- "Somebody trying to take my job," and "They're gonna have to earn their way," and on and on. And that's probably more common than it's uncommon. Some things were accomplished this spring. Billy Mueller took out sixteen guys one night that were half veterans and half young players. Eric Gagne took out eight, nine, ten pitchers, some veterans, some brand new. Alomar and Pat Borders, who just retired, hung with Navarro and Martin all spring.

So the idea from the beginning was to build community and build a togetherness to overcome whatever was going to be in our way. So the kids have done it and the veterans have respected them, but they've also been very respectful of the veterans, and they've come to play. Most of the time a kid will come up here and he'll be in awe of the situation. For a couple days, adrenaline will take over, and then pretty soon thereafter reality catches up and they go, "Oh my goodness." And then the next thing you know they're sitting back at AAA. These kids haven't done it. Russell Martin might be one of the most polished kids I've ever seen come to the big leagues and expect to do well from the get go. And Ethier is right with him. Matt Kemp had a terrible first day in Washington. Was in Huntsville, Alabama for lunch on Saturday and was in Washington, D.C. for a game lunchtime on Sunday. Struck out three times and misplayed a ball in center field. I told Grady, "In the next 24 hours we're going to learn a lot about Matt Kemp." The next day in Atlanta, Grady started him again on Memorial Day, he went on and had a great game and he's been playing well ever since. That's special.

I give credit to the area scouts who — I start with the parents of the kid. Because if anything in the chain gets broken — I said this the other day to somebody — if anything in the chain gets broken, it doesn't work. But you start with the parents and the player. Then you go to the coaches that the kid had as an amateur. And then you go to the area scout. We've got a bunch of them up here right now getting ready for the draft. People like that deserve a ton of credit because they're out in the bushes looking everywhere they can to find the next Bill Mueller, the next Nomar Garciaparra, the next Jeff Kent, the next Eric Gagne. They're tremendously overlooked except by people who really understand the game. Then the scouting director who pulls the trigger and makes a decision to take a kid. Then your player development people. Your rookie ball coach. If it's a pitcher, the pitching coach. All of these things, all the way up. The player development guy. (Dodgers Director of Player Development) Terry Collins has done a great job. A lot of these guys reflect Terry Collins.

Every step of the way — A ball, AA, AAA, getting them here. If something gets broken, if the chain gets broken, they don't make it. And once they get here- I told this to two of them already, the two we're talking about mainly, Martin and Ethier. I said, "You know what, it would have been a shame if players don't make it to the big leagues. But what's a bigger shame to me are those who make it and don't get any better. Who think, "I made it. I'm here. Game's over. I can just sit here and play the game." No. You've got to get better. You've got to keep working to get better. And they've got that drive. They've got a special drive about them. And I give, from mom and dad and the kid himself all the way up the food chain, credit for it. Because if one of them gets severed in the middle? It won't work.

BK: And you knew this infrastructure was there in terms of the minor league system?

NC: I knew they had some talented players coming. They had great prospects. But prospects are still prospects. It's tough to develop them, and they still have to figure it out, and they still have to get acclimated. Playing up here is not that easy. It's a day to day test and the best players are the ones who have adjusted throughout their careers. This is a game of adjustment every day. Because if you've got smart pitching out there- and if you're in the big leagues (they're) pretty good- if you're a young hitter and if they're getting you out one way, you'd better figure out a way to stop it. Which Matt Kemp did the other day. Stopped it on a dime, almost. That takes special talent, a special insight, and a mindset and a dedication to being the best you can be.

2007-09-21 13:02:00
222.   trainwreck
Look at the length of that answer. The man can't get enough of his voice.
2007-09-21 13:04:58
223.   PHilldodger
So Kent is now the arbiter of what is acceptable/not acceptable behavior? The same guy who injured himself "washing his car" back when he was with the Giants or Astros (I don't remember).
2007-09-21 13:08:01
224.   ToyCannon
221
I think that interview is when I stopped being as worried about Ned as I had been. Thanks for reposting.
2007-09-21 13:10:42
225.   Frip
222 Cuz he's had it with his face.
2007-09-21 13:15:18
226.   Bob Timmermann
What's wrong with Colletti giving a long thought out answer to a question? Does he have to answer in sound bites?
2007-09-21 13:16:48
227.   Bluebleeder87
224

I was taken back by your comment, so I had to read it completely my self, it is a great interview & you get a peak at how he works/philosophy.

2007-09-21 13:21:14
228.   LogikReader
221, 224

Definitely an eye opener! Thanks for re-posting that. That gives me some hope :)

2007-09-21 13:21:36
229.   D4P
226
Smoothie time!
2007-09-21 13:22:05
230.   ToyCannon
I like the grouchy Bob.
2007-09-21 13:24:09
231.   Andrew Shimmin
John Valentin is only 40. Colletti should see about getting him a non-roster invite to Spring training.
2007-09-21 13:25:13
232.   Bob Timmermann
I just don't like all these newcomers to Dodger Thoughts not respecting the words of widsom like ToyCannon and me.

When DT was young, the youngsters, like King of the Hobos, knew their place.

They even participated in our hazing rituals which required all new posters to dress up like women for a game.

Granted for people like MollyKnight or kadycee, this was not a hardship.

2007-09-21 13:26:53
233.   JoeyP
The sad thing about all this "chemistry-clubhouse-old players vs young players"--nonsense is that its just that---nonsense.

The Dodgers didnt win this year because they didnt have good enough players on the field. The veteran entitlement feeling that the old guys have isnt good either, and it obviously influenced Grady. Grady's part of that old boy network, that gets to places by whom you know and not what you know. Same with Colletti.

Its stupid for the media to pick up on this.

I'd rather see stories written about the roster,--the performers and non-performers---rather than the soap opera "feelings" of the players.

In the end, who really cares what Jeff Kent thinks? Who cares if he demands a trade?

Bottomline is you play him everyday whether he likes the guys on the team or not. If he doesnt like it, he can retire.

2007-09-21 13:29:20
234.   hernari
212

Juan Pierre career playoff line:

.301 .378 .411

2007-09-21 13:29:32
235.   Sam DC
Who got to the Devil Rays, er rather, The Rays?

http://tinyurl.com/3xl9ch

2007-09-21 13:29:50
236.   El Lay Dave
222 Aha, THIS is how Colletti and McCourt are aligned! ;)
2007-09-21 13:30:21
237.   trainwreck
I still do not like the idea of "...in the next 24 hours we will learn a lot about Matt Kemp."
2007-09-21 13:31:19
238.   trainwreck
235
Lame. Now their colors are too close to the Royals.
2007-09-21 13:31:39
239.   El Lay Dave
234 All in 2003, when his season line was:
.305 .361 .373

2007: .293 .330 .355

2007-09-21 13:33:48
240.   Bluebleeder87
Kents comments are what ever to me, I'm more concerned about our coaching staff, I really hope something is done about THAT, we don't call our 3rd base couch "the windmill" for nothing.
2007-09-21 13:34:53
241.   blue22
Rob Neyer has a post on ESPN about Jon's SI article, and is killing Jeff Kent and the vets (not that that isn't unexpected.)
2007-09-21 13:35:41
242.   bhsportsguy
233 It may be state of sports coverage in general but in a general interest paper like the LA Times and the other dailies, picking apart the roster maybe interesting to a few but hanging dirty laundry, that will get you a front page story.

The sports editors and even reporters, know that there are lots of outlets for people to find out information and analysis about the team. The last barrier for the general public is hearing directly from those who participate, the players and the coaches.

So that is what they do, sure they will write a game story but how many people read the paper for that.

So when you get a story (or non-story) about how a veteran feels as the season is ending, you are going to write it up.

When the paper needs some spacefiller next month, by all means, start talking about the roster but don't expect too much space.

2007-09-21 13:35:41
243.   hernari
239 Oh that's right... that was the year he was 10th in MVP voting!!
2007-09-21 13:37:12
244.   blue22
241 - http://tinyurl.com/2rqtcu (insider)
2007-09-21 13:37:36
245.   D4P
If/when Management looks back on 2007 and tries to figure out "what went wrong", they really need look no further than the top 2 spots in the lineup (which were manned (boyed?) primarily by Furcal and Pierre).

#1 Spot
LA: .271/.325/.362/.687
OPP: .287/.347/.411/.757

#2 Spot
LA: .286/.328/.348/.676
OPP: .279/.334/.429/.764

2007-09-21 13:41:33
246.   Bluebleeder87
245

Furcal is gonna be plenty better in '08, Pierre is Pierre, we'll just talk smack about him for the remainder of his contract.

2007-09-21 13:43:07
247.   trainwreck
Someone asked Jerry Crasnick about the Dodgers signing A-Rod then using LaRoche as the main piece in a trade for Johan Santana.
2007-09-21 13:45:31
248.   bhsportsguy
I can think of 6 games that if the Dodgers won them we of course would be looking at this weekend with a different attitude. But all of that would have been with the same cast of misfits, does that change the chemistry and attitudes?

And where would that put us for next year, you would still have the same problems except you might get into the playoffs.

Unfortunately 4 of those games were in the last 2 weeks, the 5th was the San Diego loss without Saito and the 6th was the Sunday home loss against the Mets.

Now every team can point to games that they probably should have lost and won and vice versa.

But do wins and losses cover up what's been going on all year?

2007-09-21 13:48:42
249.   KG16
247 - please tell me the answer was, "Yes, that is exactly what is going to happen"
2007-09-21 13:49:08
250.   Marty
By the way, my torch is starting to go out and they aren't cheap. We better burn someone quick, or I'm going to have to go home.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2007-09-21 13:50:43
251.   trainwreck
249
He said the Dodgers are a team that has the pieces to do something like that.
2007-09-21 13:50:49
252.   dzzrtRatt
240 Was "third base couch" deliberate? It made me laugh. They should have couches out there for the baseline coaches, and let them drink beer.
2007-09-21 13:52:46
253.   underdog
250 Pitchforks last forever. Definitely invest.

248 Maybe, maybe not. The question is also, if the Dodgers had made the playoffs would they have done anything (unlike last year)...? We have no way of knowing now, and they obviously have enough talent to scare teams had they made the playoffs, but I was kinda fearing another sneak into the playoffs then go 3 and out kind of series.

It reminds me of the Broncos for me in the late 80s/early 90s. Like a lot of fans, after two super bowl blow outs I had severe mixed feelings, even rooting against them making it to another super bowl. Sure enough they ignored us, made the SB and then got blown out again, before a dry spell for a few years. But then they added the missing piece, a great running back, and won 2 straight SB's. I'm rambling, but I think the Dodgers may just be missing one key piece that makes them a World Series contender, beyond just a playoff contender, but right now they're unfortunately not even the latter.

2007-09-21 13:53:14
254.   Bob Timmermann
Cesar Izturis was removed the game in Chicago after going 2 for 2 with a double and triple for Matt Kata, although there is no word of injury.

Maybe Matt Kata is giving Jim Tracy a Mike Edwards vibe.

2007-09-21 13:54:43
255.   ToyCannon
250
How's your back?
2007-09-21 13:56:54
256.   trainwreck
253
You just wanted to bring up the Broncos winning the Super Bowl to throw it in my face.

And to brag about John Elway to Bob.

2007-09-21 13:57:00
257.   CanuckDodger
Since most of us don't have ESPN Insider, can somebody post key excerpts from the Neyer article?
2007-09-21 13:57:52
258.   Gilberto Reyes
Kent is just blowing off steam. I think the season took a bad turn as soon as Schmidt was found to be damaged goods. Tomko, Hendrickson, and the injured Kuo were all brutal. Billingsley did an outstanding job to replace the injured Wolf, but how can you stay in contention with 40% of your starting staff pitching so poorly? I don't think you can blame Grady, the kids, or Broxton's slump for the position they are in right now.
2007-09-21 13:58:47
259.   ToyCannon
257
Nothing really key. He just agreed with Jon's SI article, and then said it was the veterans who let down the youngsters based on performance.
2007-09-21 13:58:55
260.   Marty
250 serious question? Not bad. I got two cortisone injections and it seems to be in check. I'm trying to lose wait and exercise (geez, that doesn't even look good in writing) a bit more. So far so good.
2007-09-21 13:58:56
261.   trainwreck
257
"You don't know why they don't get it, Jeff? Really? Well, maybe it's because they're kids. They don't care any more about your World Series aspirations or Gonzalez's hunt for 3,000 hits than teenagers care about their parents' hopes and dreams.

Anyway, I'm not sure the kids are the problem here. Nine Dodgers have more than 200 plate appearances. Kent, who's 39 (!) sports the third-best OPS among them. Matt Kemp (22) has the best OPS, James Loney (23) is second best and Russell Martin (24) is fourth best.

I suppose Kent might say the kids aren't doing the little things as well as they could, and should. Well, maybe. But it seems to me the Dodgers are where they are because the veterans haven't done the big things nearly well enough."

It is a very short article and is mostly just two big quotes.

2007-09-21 13:59:02
262.   King of the Hobos
254 Right elbow irritation.
2007-09-21 13:59:32
263.   D4P
The Dodgers out-OPSed their opponents in every spot in the lineup except:

#1 (mostly Furkle)
#2 (mostly PJ)
#5 (mostly LuGo)

2007-09-21 14:00:14
264.   ToyCannon
257
Canuck can you send me your email address to
molokai at yahoo dot com.
I've got some prospect questions I'd like to ask you.
2007-09-21 14:01:54
265.   ToyCannon
260
I'm trying to gain more go but it isn't working.
2007-09-21 14:07:01
266.   underdog
256 No, no, just to remind myself of the utter depths of depression I felt when they got blown out - not just lost but blown out - in 3 straight super bowls and were the laughing stock of the league. But, no, at this point I definitely won't complain (hey, the Raiders have won a couple, eh?). But I remember how conflicted one can be as a fan - playoffs and likely loss, vs. no playoffs?
2007-09-21 14:07:07
267.   trainwreck
257
I tried to watch Twitch City last night, but apparently it is a VSC. So I have to get another DVD player.
2007-09-21 14:09:36
268.   trainwreck
266
I was just joking.

Just imagine being a Bills fan.

2007-09-21 14:17:00
269.   CanuckDodger
267 -- I've never heard of "VSC." What does that mean? The Twitch City DVD worked in my DVD player, and I thought my DVD player was just like everybody else's.

264 -- My e-mail address is rbostan@shaw.ca. Anybody who posts here can use that, if they want. Anyway, TC, I won't be able to answer your questions till this evening. I have to take care of some other stuff for the next few hours.

2007-09-21 14:18:42
270.   ToyCannon
264
Thanks, prospect questions are never urgent.
2007-09-21 14:19:54
271.   Ricardo
So Kent was really mad with Loney on Sunday ? But in my opinion, Kent made the base running mistake.
2007-09-21 14:22:15
272.   trainwreck
269
I just tried on our other DVD player and it worked.

Odd.

2007-09-21 14:34:46
273.   kinbote
alternative reality playoffs 2007. game one. dodgers vs. mets. first inning. no outs. (furcal left off playoff roster due to injured back.)

leadoff batter juan pierre hits a nubber in front of the plate. tom glavine fields cleanly, but his throw sails high and pulls delgado off the bag. pierre reaches safely.

matt kemp follows with a line drive to right centerfield. beltran and green jog toward the ball as kemp puts his head down and rounds second base. a stumbling pierre is held up at third base. his helmet falls over his eyes as he scrambles to find the bag. kemp is now stampeding toward third; he crashes into pierre at full speed as shea stadium erupts in a stomach-turning gasp. both men are tagged out. a bloodied pierre refuses to leave the field, later citing a consecutive inning playoff streak he currently holds. glavine is so shaken he walks the next three batters before retiring luis gonzalez on a 3-0 check-swing grounder to first.

after the game [a 2-1 dodger loss], speaking in a hushed dodger dugout, grady little says, "i'm just glad that little guy's okay. we had a chance to put some runs on the board early in the game but we couldn't come through. hopefully tomorrow night loaiza gets us back on track."

2007-09-21 14:34:53
274.   underdog
268 Yah, I really do feel for Bills fans. They would definitely get me rooting for them if they were the AFC rep in the super bowl.
2007-09-21 14:46:29
275.   MollyKnight
I know a lot of you guys don't like Simers, but I'd really like him to get into that locker room and get Jeff Kent to enlighten us some more. He seems to get a lot from Mr. Cranky Pants.
2007-09-21 14:59:37
276.   Bob Timmermann
273
Why is Shawn Green starting in right field for the Mets?
2007-09-21 15:02:53
277.   Eric Enders
Because he's an ex-Dodger and those guys kill us. Also, he's the only Met outfielder with the ability to throw out two guys out at home on the same play.
2007-09-21 15:04:30
278.   Bob Timmermann
277
I think the question about whether or not Shawn Green will play today is: why do the Mets care?
2007-09-21 15:11:53
279.   underdog
But the Mets aren't playing the Dodgers. Otherwise it would make sense.

Meanwhile, I find myself still rooting hard for the Dodgers to smack the DBacks this weekend, even if it's probably not likely.

2007-09-21 15:13:52
280.   Bluebleeder87
279

It's gonna be interesting to see how the Dodgers "play" against Zona.

2007-09-21 15:17:41
281.   Eric Enders
276 Oh, wait. I thought you were referring back to kinbote's little scenario. Asking why is Shawn Green starting an imaginary playoff game. Since you had post 273 linked and all.

But what you're really asking, I gather, is why is Shawn Green starting today, rather than atoning? I have no idea.

2007-09-21 15:19:03
282.   Bob Timmermann
Big transaction news:

Kansas City has claimed Wes Bankston off of waivers from Tampa Bay!

2007-09-21 15:19:58
283.   Bob Timmermann
281
To confuse matters further, Green is sitting out tonight for Yom Kippur.
2007-09-21 15:20:51
284.   Eric Enders
So, what the heck were you asking then?!?
2007-09-21 15:23:46
285.   Bob Timmermann
I was wondering why Shawn Green was starting in the hypothetical game. Then I decided to make a not-so-subtle dig about Green's lack of playing time.

And then it spiraled downward from there.

2007-09-21 15:23:58
286.   regfairfield
I assume it's "why does Shawn Green start when he's a bad baseball player?"
2007-09-21 15:25:15
287.   fanerman
What in Choi's blazes happened to this thread? Chaos. Utter chaos.
2007-09-21 15:26:52
288.   Eric Enders
It's all Bob's fault. That standard-issue excuse always seems to work well.
2007-09-21 15:30:08
289.   MC Safety
Spin from Rotowire a while back: Green explained the reasoning behind his decision. "I wanted to observe and recognize it, but I felt it would be more hypocritical to miss both," Green said. "I didn't grow up Conservative or very religious. At the same time, I understand being a Jewish role model as an athlete. I do find it important for people to recognize their faith."
2007-09-21 15:30:10
290.   Eric Enders
So after Kent's little tirade, how many over-30 players will be in tonight's starting lineup?

Over/under is 5.

2007-09-21 15:30:26
291.   Bob Timmermann
288
I thought we always blamed D4P.
2007-09-21 15:39:22
292.   D4P
290
Neither.

Pierre, CF
Abreu, SS
Loney, 1B
Kent, 2B
Gonzo, LF
Martin, C
Nomar, 3B
Ethier, RF
Loaiza, P

2007-09-21 15:43:06
293.   D4P
I thought we always blamed D4P

Sure, pick on the little guy.

2007-09-21 15:43:42
294.   LAT
I have three jobs here at DT:

1. I post after a NPUT;
2. I lead the league in typos and misspellings; and
3. I have been sworn to defend Shawn Green's honor.

First characterizing Shawn Green as a "bad baseball player" is unduly harsh. He has devolved into an average player at worst. His defense is acceptable. His batting average and on base are acceptable. He just has no power anymore (notwithstanding he hit two HRs this week). If you still look for him to hit the long ball he is below average but he has not been that player since his shoulder injury four years ago.

Second, I think he has probably been the Mets most productive hitter this month. Without him they would already be looking at the back of the Phillies.

Third, he has all but announced he is thinking of retiring so cut him some slack. Its not like he said the younger players don't listen to him.

2007-09-21 15:45:27
295.   bhsportsguy
294 You have four jobs, number 4, keeping Greg Brock away from a aluminum siding salesman career.
2007-09-21 15:46:16
296.   Kevin Lewis
292

Where in the world is Matt Kemp?

2007-09-21 15:46:18
297.   King of the Hobos
The Giants are supposedly calling a press conference to announce that they will not attempt to resign Barry. Is a press conference really needed for that?

Anyways, here's Bonds' farewell letter:
www.barrybonds.com

2007-09-21 15:48:13
298.   Nagman
297 Why does this terrify me?
2007-09-21 15:48:47
299.   fanerman
294 Shawn Green's not having a bad year after all. I had no idea what he was up to but he's sporting a 105 OPS+. Good for him. He used to be my favorite Dodger. I wonder what he could be doing if he dealt with his shoulder properly.
2007-09-21 15:50:52
300.   dzzrtRatt
Dodgers.com is still pretending we're in the Wild Card race.

If we weren't, would we be more likely or less likely to see Nomar?

Seems weird to sit LaRoche after he finally got his groove back yesterday. But maybe Grady was afraid Kent would beat him up.

Every even slightly hurt Dodger should be shut down now for the remainder of the season, including Nomar, Furcal, Broxton. We can always revive them if something weird happens and we're still in the race next weekend.

Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2007-09-21 15:51:52
301.   dzzrtRatt
Jeez, second thread in a row I'm comment #300 .
2007-09-21 15:51:59
302.   Bob Timmermann
300
The MLB.com team websites are always optimistic.

When the Orioles were losing 30-3 to the Rangers, the Orioles site still had a headline up that said something like "Orioles in comeback mode against Texas."

2007-09-21 15:52:52
303.   fanerman
297 Bonds says he'll keep playing. Seems like SF's the only place that likes him though. I wonder where he'll go. He's better off as a DH these days.
2007-09-21 15:53:04
304.   Bob Timmermann
Cristian Guzman has been reactivated from the DL!
2007-09-21 15:53:50
305.   regfairfield
290
Shawn Green WARP1 - 2.4
1988 Alfredo Griffin WARP1 - 2.0

So, he's slightly more valuable than a guy who hit .199/.259/.253 in half the plate appearances.

2007-09-21 15:54:27
306.   Eric Enders
296 Kemp will almost certainly be benched tomorrow against Webb too.

He's not veteranny enough anyway. We need proven guys in there who have experience hitting popups and GIDPs.

2007-09-21 15:57:37
307.   underdog
296 Polishing Kent's motorcycle?
2007-09-21 15:57:57
308.   Bob Timmermann
It's gonna be a long night here in DT I can sense.

I should convert to Judaism to try to get out of the game.

2007-09-21 15:58:39
309.   MC Safety
302- LOL. Ultra optimism at its finest.
2007-09-21 15:58:56
310.   Kevin Lewis
I wonder what would have happened if Gonzo had been resigned by Arizona.
2007-09-21 15:59:18
311.   fanerman
Shawn Green has had approximately as good a season as LuGo.
2007-09-21 15:59:41
312.   D4P
It's gonna be a long night here in DT I can sense

I remember every moment, of those endless summer nights

(Oh, I remember...)

2007-09-21 16:00:15
313.   trainwreck
I can't think of a team that would take Bonds. Oakland would have been the best bet, but they are probably going to try to rebuild now.

Maybe they think he could bring more fans to the games.

2007-09-21 16:02:58
314.   Eric Enders
Maybe Bonds will sign with the Yankees. It'd make things easier because all fan hatred could be concentrated on one place.
2007-09-21 16:03:14
315.   dzzrtRatt
303 Bonds would be perfect for my new adopted team, the Baltimore Orioles. Much as they apparently love Aubrey Huff, I think Bonds would be an upgrade, and it would be fun to see what he could do to upset the Boston/NY applecarts.
2007-09-21 16:03:16
316.   bhsportsguy
Please don't throw rocks at me but Grady will not give guys time off or play all kids as long as there are two things possible, one, the Dodgers are not eliminated and two, the teams they are playing are fighting for a playoff spot too.
2007-09-21 16:04:04
317.   fanerman
The Dodgers should try to trade Kent to whatever team Bonds ends up with.
2007-09-21 16:04:16
318.   underdog
308 Why is this night different than all other nights?
2007-09-21 16:04:47
319.   Eric Enders
318 The Dodgers might win?
2007-09-21 16:05:19
320.   Marty
Dodgers at AZ. Party at Shimmin's house!
2007-09-21 16:05:35
321.   Kevin Lewis
I don't know what it is, but I don't feel like using my tickets for next week
2007-09-21 16:05:42
322.   underdog
319 Daiyanu!
2007-09-21 16:05:58
323.   dzzrtRatt
I think the idea of tonight's lineup is to get all our veterans to focus their anger on Arizona's young players rather than our own.

LuGo had a dream that the ghost of Rocky Calavito appeared on a flaming pie and told him he will lead our comeback into playoff contention, starting tonight.

2007-09-21 16:06:06
324.   Jon Weisman
295 - 5. Help remind people of the importance of "Joe vs. the Volcano."
2007-09-21 16:07:06
325.   BlueCrew Bruin
297 Ahh, the perfect guy for Ned to use in another year of outfield roulette. I sense a Bonds-Kemp platoon in the making.

I think my head would explode.

2007-09-21 16:08:01
326.   Eric Enders
323 "focus their anger on Arizona's young players"

Gonzo has the most experience in this regard, so that's probably why he's playing.

Also so he can reach his personal statistical goals.

2007-09-21 16:09:34
327.   D4P
Also so he can reach his personal statistical goals

I'm confused. LuGo was the one who said that young players are too focused on individual stats, while old players care about winning.

2007-09-21 16:09:54
328.   Eric Enders
Just one more hit for 2,500!

Raise your hand if you actually care.

2007-09-21 16:10:55
329.   Bob Timmermann
Can you have a ghost if you're not dead? Or is dzzrtRatt going to find Rocky Colavito (aka Old Friend Rocky Colavito) and kill him just so he can have his metaphor?
2007-09-21 16:12:42
330.   Bob Timmermann
The only games that matter to me tonight are Houston at St. Louis and Seattle at LAAofA
2007-09-21 16:12:45
331.   bhsportsguy
329 Are you feeling better, btw Coach Walker personally apologizes to you for last week.
2007-09-21 16:13:24
332.   Eric Enders
Maybe it's Rocky Colavito's turn in the batting order, but he's still on third base.
2007-09-21 16:13:47
333.   Jim Hitchcock
295 Okay, having been away from youse guys for awhile, I need to have the significance of
NPUT explained. Bob pulled it on me yesterday.
2007-09-21 16:14:12
334.   Bob Timmermann
331
I am feeling much better today. My virus seems to be gone.

And my crushing, soul-sapping depression.

2007-09-21 16:14:46
335.   GoBears
Actually, if the Dodgers can't nab A-Rod, I'd love for them to sign Bonds for 1 season. He'll only want to play in about half the games. He's obviously a power bat. And he could force Pierre to the bench frequently. Yeah, it's more likely that he'd share time with Ethier or Kemp whilst JP makes his 3 outs per game, but ya know, since we're dreamin'...

I'd also love to see how the bleacher boors would handle it. The cognitive dissonance on whether to boo Bonds in Blue might cause the level of citizenship at the ballpark to rise by default.

This might be one that Colletti gets right for all the wrong reasons.

Nah - ain't gonna happen.

2007-09-21 16:15:53
336.   trainwreck
331
Did he personally apologize to me too?
2007-09-21 16:15:56
337.   fanerman
335 Don't forget we'd get to see Jeff Kent react to having to share a locker room with Bonds again.

I still don't think it's worth it.

2007-09-21 16:16:37
338.   bhsportsguy
334 I think I have been Mr. Cranky for a couple of days.
2007-09-21 16:17:39
339.   bhsportsguy
336 He apologizes to everyone. He kind of threw the offense under the bus though duly noted, the defense has been scouted out pretty well so far.
2007-09-21 16:18:30
340.   Bob Timmermann
338
Was the crankiness accompanied by a slight fever and a tinge of ague?
2007-09-21 16:19:01
341.   trainwreck
339
Yes, now I can tell people that Walker personally apologized to me.

He should totally throw the offense under a bus. Two buses in fact.

2007-09-21 16:19:21
342.   Marty
I'm in day 7 of my cold. I'm sure it's cancer or pneumonia, or a social disease or something.
2007-09-21 16:20:07
343.   Bob Timmermann
342
Well, you know those Danes.
2007-09-21 16:20:34
344.   dzzrtRatt
Hey Eric Enders: My wife just came home from a used-book sale at our local library, and handed me a copy of "Ballparks Then and Now," by...Eric Enders!
2007-09-21 16:22:00
345.   Jim Hitchcock
344 Don't drop it on your foot!
2007-09-21 16:22:03
346.   Bob Timmermann
344
If you liked Eric Enders, you would have bought a new copy and given him royalties.
2007-09-21 16:22:44
347.   King of the Hobos
The vets are playing because the Dodgers haven't decided to call it a year yet, but also, and I'm guessing this is more important, because Ned wants to avoid all the scrutiny that Houston received when it started playing youngsters against contending teams.
2007-09-21 16:23:19
348.   GoBears
If you (or your wife) really loved Eric, you'd buy it new.
2007-09-21 16:23:45
349.   GoBears
346. Ratsa fratsa....
2007-09-21 16:23:52
350.   sporky
297 - Kevin Towers should pick him up. You know, to complement Milton Bradley.
Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2007-09-21 16:24:52
351.   Eric Enders
346 Actually, I don't get royalties on that one. I need a better agent.

But I hope you like the book. If not, then it was some other Eric Enders who wrote it.

2007-09-21 16:24:55
352.   Gagne55
337 But then we have Kent and Bonds in the same line-up! I know he isn't an everyday player anymore and he ain't the gold glove he used to be. But he can still play the field adequately and he can still hit. There is no player who I'd like to see in Dodger blue more than Bonds. He is the greatest player of this generation.
2007-09-21 16:30:18
353.   Bob Timmermann
Phils and Nats tied at 1. Fish lead the Mets 1-0.
2007-09-21 16:30:27
354.   Jon Weisman
333 - I can't answer that until I put a new post up top.
2007-09-21 16:32:20
355.   ImprobableImpossible
352
I fixed your typo...

There is no player who I'd like to see in Dodger blue more than Rodriguez. He is the greatest player of this generation.

2007-09-21 16:32:31
356.   Jim Hitchcock
354 (the intrigue builds)Okay, thanks!
2007-09-21 16:32:55
357.   underdog
352 I just don't want to root for a team that has Kent and Bonds on it. And I don't want to watch Bonds man the outfield. That's the end of it for me. I just wouldn't like that team as much.

Bonds needs to go to the AL and be a DH. The aforementioned guesses of Baltimore and Oakland make the most sense to me so far.

2007-09-21 16:33:37
358.   underdog
356 It's an acronym, you see...
2007-09-21 16:33:41
359.   Eric Enders
Hitchcock... intrigue builds...

Jon's post was a MacGuffin, btw.

2007-09-21 16:33:59
360.   Bluebleeder87
Martin needs 2 more for 20/20
2007-09-21 16:34:43
361.   ToyCannon
352
I'm on board.
2007-09-21 16:34:49
362.   underdog
359 Saboteur!

This discussion is for the birds.

2007-09-21 16:35:40
363.   regfairfield
355 A-Rod never put up a .609 on base percentage, though I would never, ever want to see Barry in a Dodger uniform.
2007-09-21 16:36:25
364.   LAT
I see Bonds in a Halo uniform. He lives in So. Cal. He can DH and play LF. He will give Vlad much protection. They will be contenders for the next few years. I suspect he would give them a discount for all this. And it allows Arte to fufill his "big move" promise, even if its a year late. Its a match made in. . . well somewhere.
2007-09-21 16:36:41
365.   ImprobableImpossible
No Pierre Underhand Throws?
2007-09-21 16:37:38
366.   Bluebleeder87
I can see that happening as well LAT, man, I really hope the Dodgers go after A-Rod though.
2007-09-21 16:37:38
367.   underdog
364 I can totally see that, too. Gives me another reason to dislike the Angels. (Sorry guys.)
2007-09-21 16:38:52
368.   Bluebleeder87
O.K. that's just freaky 366 ,367
2007-09-21 16:39:35
369.   LAT
I'm guessing that if Bonds came to the Dodgers we would be looking for a new trainer. I don't know why Conte left SF but its hard to believe it didn't have something to do with the Grand Jury or some conflict with Barry.
2007-09-21 16:40:42
370.   bhsportsguy
353 Fish 3 - Pedro 0, still in the second.
2007-09-21 16:40:49
371.   Bob Timmermann
3-0 Fish over the Mets.
2007-09-21 16:42:27
372.   Robert Daeley
If Bonds came to the Dodgers, I'd be looking for a new team to root for.
2007-09-21 16:43:41
373.   trainwreck
On ESPN they were saying that with the Matthews fiasco, Arte may want to stay clear of all steroid/HGH controversy.

The Mariners could be another team that may try to go after Bonds.

2007-09-21 16:43:42
374.   Bob Timmermann
372
The DBacks bandwagon has plenty of room.
2007-09-21 16:43:46
375.   Jim Hitchcock
358, 259, Wow. So I google Macguffin and get...Alfred Hitchcock!
2007-09-21 16:45:42
376.   ImprobableImpossible
Normally Dodger fans wait an inning or two to boo their own players. If this were to happen, they'd be reminding their own left fielder about his mythical tendency to suck from BP to final out.
2007-09-21 16:46:34
377.   LAT
I'll give Barry his due. His farwell letter on his site was nicely done. It will be interesting to watch what the Giants have planned for him and the ovation he gets in his last game.

I just realized fan aprrecaiton day could be his last trip to DS.

2007-09-21 16:47:23
378.   Bob Timmermann
Barry Bonds joining the Dodgers would be like Juan Marichal joining the Dodgers except multiplied by a factor of a billion.
2007-09-21 16:48:10
379.   underdog
375 Um, yeah, that was sorta the joke there.
The wine bottle in Notorious, the microfilm in a lot of those suspense films, the new post up top on this blog, that sort of thing.
2007-09-21 16:48:35
380.   Bob Timmermann
I just realized fan aprrecaiton day could be his last trip to DS.

Give Barry a Hobie Cat!

2007-09-21 16:48:49
381.   underdog
I think the odds are better that Bonds retires than that he goes anywhere else, frankly. He's got the record*.
2007-09-21 16:49:19
382.   ImprobableImpossible
Never Park Under Trees?
2007-09-21 16:51:59
383.   SG6
377 - yeah, his agent or his writer did a nice job. I wonder if Barry has read it?
2007-09-21 16:52:10
384.   dzzrtRatt
354 Actually, Jon's post was very meta-fictional. Ripe for deconstruction. A kind of Mobius strip (imagine two dots over the o.)
2007-09-21 16:54:48
385.   Eric Enders
Yeah, there's no way Barry wrote that, and actually I would be surprised if he's seen it.
2007-09-21 16:55:33
386.   dzzrtRatt
The Sopranos ending to Dodger Thoughts would be Jon writing NPUT, then silence.

And not to be morbid or stir up the pixies (three ptooeys), but that would be a great headstone for any famous, prolific blogger.

2007-09-21 16:56:21
387.   Jim Hitchcock
384 Got it. That was fun.
2007-09-21 16:56:49
388.   ImprobableImpossible
Ned's Players Underachieve Totally?
2007-09-21 17:04:52
389.   Jon Weisman
386 - LOL
2007-09-21 17:07:52
390.   Nagman
Lucky for Barry, nobody currently wears #25. He can save some money.
2007-09-21 17:08:47
391.   Bob Timmermann
A dark cloud has settled over Los Angeles. The sky is gray, bordering on black. Black like the mood the Dodgers are in.
2007-09-21 17:10:32
392.   dzzrtRatt
Today would be a perfect day for a rainout. Too bad they're on the road.

Will the Angels' drive to the top of the baseball world be stalled by Mother Nature?

2007-09-21 17:11:22
393.   Bob Timmermann
392
Since the forecast is for scattered thunderstorms, I would think they would stay up all night to play the Angels game.
2007-09-21 17:11:33
394.   Kevin Lewis
The storm rolled in early last night
2007-09-21 17:11:54
395.   Eric Enders
390 http://tinyurl.com/2tu4bz
2007-09-21 17:12:33
396.   regfairfield
If lightning keeps me out of Vegas, I will not be a happy man.
2007-09-21 17:13:54
397.   Nagman
395 Sheesh, I even scanned the active roster. I guess it was wishful thinking (that #25 was not currently active much less warming up in the bullpen right this second).
2007-09-21 17:16:11
398.   bhsportsguy
396 Are you flying in?
2007-09-21 17:18:17
399.   Bumsrap
A few posters are so depressed they actually put Barry Bonds in the same sentence with the Dodgers.

If Colletti were to sign Bonds he could well say his job is done here and go back to the Giants.

2007-09-21 17:20:46
400.   regfairfield
398 Yep. I'm the only one of my friends who doesn't have a real job, so I couldn't leave on Wednesday like they did. Combine this with a car that I'm very hesitant to take to Orange County, let alone Vegas, and I'm flying.
Show/Hide Comments 401-450
2007-09-21 17:24:07
401.   dzzrtRatt
It might be worth giving up the 2008 season to sign Bonds and then torture him by making him play out of position. Catcher, for example.

"I can't catch, Ned. I can't even bend over to pick up my jock strap."

"We're paying you $18 million. You'll catch, Barry, and you'll like it. And for every passed ball, Jeff Kent gets to pull another hair out of your back. Ah-ha-ha-ha!"

2007-09-21 17:25:32
402.   underdog
399 But if he were to sign Alex Rodriguez, would Colletti's name no longer be "mud" in these parts? Just wonderin'.
2007-09-21 17:25:43
403.   bhsportsguy
It is so strange when you listen to the New York and Boston teams play in Florida, whether its Tampa Bay or Miami. It sounds like a home game for those teams.

Of course there are so few people at the game that any sound is going to be loud.

2007-09-21 17:27:22
404.   Bluebleeder87
399

that was a good one... LOL.

2007-09-21 17:29:11
405.   Bumsrap
402 A 7 year $33 Million per contract could make his name mud if not in the first year of such a contract but maybe starting in the 4th.
2007-09-21 17:34:11
406.   Eric Enders
402 It would help him to even the books for Pierre, at least. But it's hard to judge a man mud or not mud based on one of dozens of moves.

405 A-Rod 7 years, $231 mil? I'd probably do that.

2007-09-21 17:37:43
407.   El Lay Dave
406 What if Boras wants opt-out clauses?
2007-09-21 17:39:25
408.   Eric Enders
407 Then give them to him. A-Rod for two or three years is better than A-Rod for none.
2007-09-21 17:39:45
409.   trainwreck
My name is Mud.
But call me Alowishus Devadander Abercrombie.
That's long for Mud.
So I've been told.
2007-09-21 17:40:57
410.   Bluebleeder87
Hey Marty (on your work outs) you should take a picture of your self every 2 months or so, so you can stay motivated (there's plenty more on that on the web, I'm sure you know about that), staying healthy is HUGE, for your long term life, it's great hearing your doing something to stay healthy.
2007-09-21 17:41:34
411.   regfairfield
407 Even better. I'm starting to love the opt out clause more and more. The market is almost guaranteed to sky rocket every few years, so unless the guy completely falls apart, he'll activate it.

It's pretty much a way to get a Furcal or Schmidt type contract without the extra money.

2007-09-21 17:42:00
412.   Mr Blue
Romey comment yesterday: Memo to sportswriters-You are not the PR Dept for the team. I hope Plaschke got it. The one place where he hit the nail on the head today..."A youth movement works only when the veterans are flexible enough to move. The Dodgers veterans, it turns out, were not.Although they won't say it publicly, neither Kent nor Luis Gonzalez nor Nomar Garciaparra is thrilled that they have lost playing time to the kids, even though most of the kids were outplaying them".
2007-09-21 17:46:39
413.   El Lay Dave
411 Except that if the player tanks, the team is stuck with him for the duration, which might be worse than more money/season for a shorter term.
2007-09-21 17:47:13
414.   Dodgers49
296. Where in the world is Matt Kemp?

Matt Kemp had been getting two hits in each of his starts. In his last one he only went 1 for 5. To Grady that's a slump. He hasn't played since (and who knows when he'll ever play again).

2007-09-21 17:48:30
415.   bhsportsguy
412 Actually only one of those guys lost playing time to kids and that was the rotation of the 3 for 2 outfielders.

Kent plays on most days and Nomar plays when he is deemed healthy enough to play.

The kids playing in front of the veterans scenario is mostly a red herring.

2007-09-21 17:48:32
416.   Humma Kavula
409 That's Aloysius.
2007-09-21 17:49:07
417.   bhsportsguy
414 He played on Wednesday. Maybe it just seems longer.
2007-09-21 17:51:36
418.   Marty
Didn't we hear that Kemp missed some early bus the other day. He obviously doesn't get it.
2007-09-21 17:53:10
419.   bhsportsguy
The Mets have scored 8 unearned runs tonight on 4 errors, 2 apiece by Miggy and Mike Jacobs.
2007-09-21 17:55:05
420.   Dodgers49
381. I think the odds are better that Bonds retires than that he goes anywhere else, frankly. He's got the record*.

I think Barry would love to get to 3,000 hits and 2,000 RBI before he calls it quits. He is pretty close to both.

2007-09-21 17:55:20
421.   King of the Hobos
413 If a player has played 6 or more years, which is required for free agency, all at above average rates, the odds of them tanking is very low (assuming they're not 40). The team may have to endure a season like Andruw's, but the player will rebound. Injury is the big risk, but a player with prolonged amount of both success and health is a reasonable gamble with the opt out clause, and I'd say Arod fits that profile. If we're talking about giving Kyle Lohse a 5 year deal with an opt out clause after the second year, then that's dumb. But why are you signing Lohse to a 5 year deal in the first place?
2007-09-21 17:57:59
422.   Jon Weisman
Where Will Barry Bonds End up in 2008?

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=536

2007-09-21 17:59:30
423.   dzzrtRatt
So, no one's mentioned that Jim Tracy's Pirate team got swept by the Padres in games that clearly counted for a lot to all the Wild Card teams and Arizona.

His firing is a foregone conclusion, right?

2007-09-21 18:01:22
424.   Marty
423 If they hire a GM quick enough, I would assume he's gone. Otherwise it could be like the Depo years where the GM is stuck with his manager. Good Times.
2007-09-21 18:03:12
425.   King of the Hobos
423 I think that depends on the GM. The Pirates are denying that they hired Huntington, so the new GM could be a crazed masochist and want to keep Tracy.
2007-09-21 18:03:17
426.   still bevens
San Diego? Seriously? Would you want Barry patrolling the vast expanses of Petco? They would almost have to resign Cameron to make up all that ground.
2007-09-21 18:04:16
427.   bhsportsguy
424 The new former MLB guy that is running the Pirates said to the Pirates beat writer that there will be no pressure to either keep or get rid of the manager and staff from above the GM, it will be the GM's sole decision.

Apparently they are close to signing Cleveland's Asst. GM.

2007-09-21 18:05:23
428.   dzzrtRatt
426 They could do Gene Mauch in reverse. Four outfielders. All they need is a really, really good third baseman.
2007-09-21 18:07:08
429.   old dodger fan
Didn't McCourt make his money in real estate? Most real estate developers I know are strapped for cash right now. Anybody know anything about how McCourt is doing?
2007-09-21 18:08:45
430.   El Lay Dave
422 Will Colletti take "300-1" as a challenge? ;)
2007-09-21 18:11:42
431.   Jon Weisman
N ew P ost U p T op
2007-09-21 18:17:08
432.   Gen3Blue
When ballplayers go through a particularly humiliating stretch, it is fascinating to get a glimpse of what goes on in their minds. And it is rare. In 40 years of being a fairly self aware Dodger fan I have gotten very few clear signals. Does a player tend to blame his fellow players, or management, or even himself. Of course the proper ML and macho attitude is to hold it in and give no hint, and in my experience this is mostly what happens. However, some of the best players are so competitive that something will escape. Every now and then I've had a glimpse, maybe even this year.

Comment status: comments have been closed. Baseball Toaster is now out of business.