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About Jon
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1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
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The A-Rod Countdown Has Not Started
2007-10-03 08:57
by Jon Weisman

Some useful information provided Tuesday by Dodger Thoughts commenter Bhsportsguy relating to the idea of the Dodgers somehow shocking us and ending up with Alex Rodriguez:

1. A-Rod can opt out of his contract 10 days after the conclusion of the 2007 season; the latest that would be is November 11, 2007.

2. Players can begin to elect to become free agents for a 15-day period after the season concludes. So if the season ends on November 1, the period is between November 2-16.

3. Free agents can begin talks with other clubs starting on the 16th day after the end of the season. So, that would be November 17 in this scenario.

4. Not really related, but the last date for teams to file their reserve lists for both their minor and major league rosters is November 20. (This is in regards to the Rule 5 draft.)

5. December 1 is the last day for teams to offer arbitration to ranked free agents to be eligible for compensation. (List usually comes out around the end of October.)

6. Not really related to this topic, but the Rule 5 draft will be held on December 6.

7. Player deadline to accept arbitration is December 7.

8. For those on Mark Hendrickson watch, the last day to tender a contract is December 12, but that decision will probably be made prior to November 20 for roster protection considerations.

9. If a team signs a ranked free agent prior to December 1, the team that lost the player will get compensation. (But there will be fewer ranked free agents due to changes made in the last CBA.)

So, there is nothing that can happen between now and at least the first week of November. So kick back and enjoy the playoffs; the Hot Stove won't get its first logs for a few more weeks.

* * *

Enter the True Blue World Series contest and win your choice of a Matt Kemp, James Loney or Russell Martin t-shirt.

Comments (546)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-10-03 09:10:08
1.   Daniel Zappala
Per the last comment on the previous thread, in the Dan Patrick interview, Tim McClelland actually said that even if Barrett had caught the ball, the runner still would have been safe. He said he saw the runner slide through the catcher's leg, and that he always waits until the play is complete (in this case, waiting to see if the catcher caught the ball or not), processes all the information, and then makes the call. He sounds like a very methodical ump, which explains the way he calls a game. He also is extremely ethical, which I appreciate, and would support replays but only for fair/foul or home run calls where the replay shows the call was wrong.

Definitely a good interview.

2007-10-03 09:11:17
2.   Improbable88

Anyone hear Tim McClelland on the Dan Patrick show this morning?

He says he got the call right, and that the two replay angles can't help to disprove him. Says Barrett's foot was not grounded and that Holliday got the plate in pushing it away. Also mentioned that had Barrett hung onto the ball, Holliday would have been out.

I thought it was pretty stand-up for an umpire to go live on the air so soon after the controversy.

2007-10-03 09:12:26
3.   Improbable88
1 Yeah, as I said, I was very impressed that the interview even took place.

Thanks for the clarification on the dropped ball.

2007-10-03 09:14:29
4.   Daniel Zappala
This is part of what makes Dan Patrick's show so great, as opposed to um....Cowherd. :-)
2007-10-03 09:15:42
5.   blue22
He didn't look out to me if he had just held onto the ball. It appeared he still would've had to apply the tag if he had fielded it cleanly, at which point Holliday would've already gone past him. It didn't look like Barrett got an empty glove on him before Holliday "touched" the plate.
2007-10-03 09:29:11
6.   El Lay Dave
D'oh! I was LATed, but it was about the Rams, so I'm not copying in up here.

...10 days after the conclusion of the 2007 season; the latest that would be is November 11, 2007.

Good grief. I remember being shocked when an SI issue covering the conclusion of the WS was dated November 1. (A Reds year maybe? 1976?). I know there was November baseball in 2001, but that was due to rescheduling after 9/11, wasn't it?

2007-10-03 09:32:52
7.   old dodger fan
I think it ran into November after the earthquake.
2007-10-03 09:38:09
8.   old dodger fan
mlb.contracts also says this about ARod's contract.

"Rodriguez may void after 2008 or 2009 unless club increases 2009-10 salary by $5M/year or $1M more than highest-paid MLB position player

no-trade clause

club may offer salary arbitration if Rodriguez voids contract 2007-09, but club may not offer salary arbitration after 2010"

So if he opts out and they offer him arbitration and he says "no" does that mean that whoever signs him has to give up a draft choice?

2007-10-03 09:41:20
9.   Jon Weisman
Didn't Jeter or someone hit a homer in an extra inning game just after midnight on Nov. 1 one year?
2007-10-03 09:43:16
10.   LogikReader
Jon, are you holding the sarcasm sign? [bbt]

Jeter did, that was the 2001 WS.

2007-10-03 09:46:39
11.   SG6
Bill Dwyre had an article in the LA Times making the case for instant replay. He held the Holliday slide as the big cause, but failed to mention that that type of play would not (should not?) be reviewable, and even if it was, it would be inconclusive: "The ruling on the field stands."

I heard the tail-end of the Patrick inteview. He told McClelland that he got the call wrong (in his non-confrontational way). McClelland said to the effect, "that's what makes this country great, everyone can have their own opinion. But mine is the one that counts."

McClelland certainly had the best view in the house.

2007-10-03 09:48:06
12.   Andrew Shimmin
So if he opts out and they offer him arbitration and he says "no" does that mean that whoever signs him has to give up a draft choice?

Almost certainly so. I can't imagine the Yankees declining to offer him arbitration. It could happen, but it seems implausible.

2007-10-03 09:48:16
13.   Jon Weisman
11 - Yeah, I found it interesting that one would choose to make a case for instant replay based on replays that were inconclusive.
2007-10-03 09:48:57
14.   El Lay Dave
7 Close, but the '89 WS ended on 9/28. Would have run into November maybe, but it was a sweep.
2007-10-03 09:52:23
15.   jasonungar07
My playoff predictions....

Boston over Anh, Clev over NY
Boston over Cle

Cubs over AZ, Col over Phi
Col over Cubs

Boston over Col

2007-10-03 09:55:34
16.   El Lay Dave
Orel Hershiser said on ESPN that he favors replay for HR/not HR and fair/foul only.

So if the umpire ruled foul and all the runners stopped and returned to their bases, but the replay indicates fair, what then? If the umpire indicates HR, the batter (and runners) jogs around the bases, but the replay shows "hit the yellow line" or something, what then? Ground-rule doubles?? Yecch.

Having a tiebreaker game decided in extra-innings on an extremely close play that could have been called either way seems pretty fitting to me.

2007-10-03 10:07:35
17.   StolenMonkey86
I stand by my remarks from the previous thread, comment 79.

Instant Replay challenge rule. If a manager wants to challenge a play, umpires watch instant replay camera. If correct, the play is overturned, and the umpire who overthrew the play cannot personally eject the manager. If the manager is wrong, the opposing manager gets to select the player of his choice to be ejected.

2007-10-03 10:09:38
18.   Humma Kavula
8 Rodriguez may void after 2008 or 2009 unless club increases 2009-10 salary by $5M/year or $1M more than highest-paid MLB position player

I read this as saying that the Yankees can keep A-Rod without even signing him to a contract extension -- just by increasing his salary for the two years already on his contract by $5 million/year. Is that correct?

If so, shouldn't the Yankees do this?

2007-10-03 10:11:30
19.   Humma Kavula
17 And I still say that, violating the spirit of that rule and the game, I would encourage my team to make close plays against the Cardinals. Enough close plays would bait La Russa to challenge me. And when La Russa is wrong, I will eject Pujols.
2007-10-03 10:18:00
20.   StolenMonkey86
19 - Nice. But really, I'm just looking for a way to keep Little from running Russell Martin into the ground.
2007-10-03 10:19:36
21.   dianagramr

Under that scenario, Chipper Jones or Teixiera would never see the end of any game.

2007-10-03 10:20:19
22.   StolenMonkey86
18 - I think that's in addition to the opt-out he has now.
2007-10-03 10:27:18
23.   Daniel Zappala
Why would anyone want instant replay in baseball? The only possible case is when you want to change a hit ruled a double or long foul ball into a home run. In any other case, there are typically runners on the bases. McClelland made a great point that on a safe/out call, what the players do next depends on whether the call is safe/out. If you then go change the call, what do you do about the runners? I.e. ff a play is called out at the plate, and it is the third out, then the runner on third comes home while everyone is returning to their dugouts -- what happens if the ump changes to the rule to safe on replay? It's just a huge mess.

I prefer no replay in baseball ever. Let it be the one sport that is played out on the field instead of on TV sets.

2007-10-03 10:34:24
24.   Bob Timmermann
Steve Finley, Rod Barajas, Scott Brosius, and Alfonso Soriano have all hit World Series homers in November.

Brosisus hit his in the ninth inning off of Byung-Hyun Kim to tie the game.

In the three November World Series games in 2001, Derek Jeter was 2 for 11.

Jeter did hit a home run in the 10th inning of Game 4 of the 2001 World Series, which started on October 31 and finished after midnight.

2007-10-03 10:36:11
25.   CajunDodger
Speaking of all this, the wires this morning had Boras saying that Andruw Jones will require $20 million per year to sign.


2007-10-03 10:36:48
26.   old dodger fan
18 That provision is after 08 or 09. They don't have that option after 07.
2007-10-03 10:38:05
27.   D4P
I can't believe that GMs don't universally want to "stick it to" Boras by not giving in to his demands. But there's always some moron willing to do whatever he wants.

Please, GMs, I prithee: don't pay $20 million/year for Jones.

2007-10-03 10:42:35
28.   ToyCannon
It will be interesting to see what Cameron, Milton, A Jones, Rowand, and Hunter get.
2007-10-03 10:43:02
29.   old dodger fan
This year, of the 12 NL CFers who had enough PA's to qualify for the batting title Andruw Jones OPS was 11th. Guess who was 12th. Do we want the 11th and 12th best offensive CFers in our OF next year? I don't.
2007-10-03 10:44:03
30.   KG16
16 - yeah, I don't think those advocating for instant replay in baseball have a clear understanding of the rules of the game.

Instant replay would be a total disaster in baseball.

2007-10-03 10:44:12
31.   D4P
You'd think Sabean will be paying big for somebody.
2007-10-03 10:46:54
32.   GoBears
27 You've taken some game theory classes, haven't you? Collusion, besides being illegal, is also devilishly hard to sustain. Each team has a strong incentive to cheat on the agreement and get Boras's players for themselves.
2007-10-03 10:47:27
33.   Jon Weisman
Ultimately, winning is more important for a GM than sticking it to Boras.
2007-10-03 10:48:28
34.   Bob Timmermann
If your team wins, you can probably make more money for yourself than you can by "sticking it to Boras."

Baseball teams are competing with each other, not Scott Boras.

2007-10-03 10:48:42
35.   CajunDodger
Rowand has always jumped out at me as a "Colletti Guy". That said, I think that Ned will be more focused on 3B and will allow the Kemp, Pierre, Ethier OF another year to mature.

It is scary to think of Ned panicking after missing out on A-Rod, Jones, Hunter, and Santana and picking up Rowand for 4 years and 40 million...

2007-10-03 10:51:19
36.   D4P
I understand completely. The problem though is that in game theory, "cheaters" win, at least in the short term. While social welfare may go down, their private welfare goes up.

But in baseball, cheaters don't necessarily win. GMs who sign Barry Zitos and Andruw Joneses to 100 million contracts aren't exactly getting a leg up on non-cheaters. They're just making themselves look stupid, and making things worse for other GMs.

I'm not suggesting formal collusion: I'm just suggesting common sense across the board.

2007-10-03 10:51:40
37.   KG16
Has a consensus developed among the DT readers yet as for what to do this off season?

It seems rather unanimous that the Bums should make a run at A-Rod, but other than that, anything?

2007-10-03 10:52:17
38.   D4P
I guess I'm distinguishing between Boras clients who are worth a lot of money (e.g. ARod) and Boras clients who aren't (e.g. Zito).
2007-10-03 10:54:07
39.   CajunDodger
Boras is not going anywhere and is a necessary evil that GMs will eventually have to deal with because he keeps picking up guys like Rick Porcello and Dice-K. He is continually restocking the cupboards with young impact guys.

Colletti may as well get it over with and prepare to bid around 4/$140 on start.

2007-10-03 10:54:21
40.   LogikReader
I have no problem with Rowand in a vacuum... Pretty solid numbers for 4/40 plus I can't imagine his Defense is any worse than Juan Pierre.

He's not PVL material; only 29 right now.

2007-10-03 10:55:21
41.   ssjames
37 According to most the preferrable path is called ARONS. A-Rod Or Nobody Scenario. Would you like to join ARONS? I know that I am on board.
2007-10-03 10:55:31
42.   sweepstakes
Check out the defensive stats on Druw Jones. His fielding percentage remains solid, but his putouts have been in steady decline.

2007-10-03 10:55:57
43.   Linkmeister
37 "Has a consensus developed among the DT readers yet as for what to do this off season?"


2007-10-03 10:56:10
44.   Jon Weisman
37 - I don't think that's unanimous, but I'm sure many feel we should at least inquire.
2007-10-03 10:56:50
45.   LogikReader
-- the thing is, re: Rowand, he figures to get more than 4/40.

That puts me on the ARONs, shall run roll call?

2007-10-03 10:57:03
46.   LogikReader
shall I run roll call?
2007-10-03 10:57:23
47.   D4P
Ultimately, winning is more important for a GM than sticking it to Boras

To follow up, I'm talking about situations where winning and sticking it to Boras are symbiotic. (e.g. spending $100 million on something more useful than Barry Zito).

2007-10-03 10:57:40
48.   Linkmeister
Here's an unofficial nonscientific poll: Of the Toaster blogs whose teams are in the postseason, which has the giddiest commenters?
2007-10-03 10:58:03
49.   ToyCannon
In my 40 years of watching baseball, common sense has never seemed to prevail in baseball from management.

I'd bet that the common sense gene has mutated as the earth tries to rid itself of our species.

2007-10-03 10:59:51
50.   ToyCannon
I thought in 2005, Rowand was considered one of the best defensive centerfielders in baseball.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-10-03 10:59:55
51.   misterjohnny
23 I think you are exaggerating the problem. Umpires already have discretion on placing baserunners where they should be on fan interference and such. If a player is called out for the third out, the play stops. If later evidence overrules that call, then the umpires need to decide where to place the other runners based on what likely would have happened if the play had continued. If the runner was advancing to second on the throw home, then he should be placed at second. It really isn't that hard. It's not like a fumble in football, where you don't know who's going to recover the ball when the play is ruled dead. For the most part, runners run at approximately the same pace, and if a runner scores from second and there is a play at home, the batter will get to second. If all players are tagging up and there is a play at one base, the others would have gotten there safely.

That's how I would implement it. However, I'm not in favor of it for anything but home runs.

2007-10-03 11:01:15
52.   D4P
I'd bet that the common sense gene has mutated as the earth tries to rid itself of our species

The earth is lucky that so many of us appear to have the same goal.

2007-10-03 11:01:57
53.   misterjohnny
I'm for any hot stove trade that gets Juan Pierre off the team. I'm sure he's a very nice person and loves his mother, but IMO he's not contributing.
2007-10-03 11:02:28
54.   jasonungar07
Regarding Jone:

Schuerholz said the team got an offer from Boras last December but quickly realized it was far more than anything they would consider.

Boras withdrew the offer, believed to be in the $20-million-a-year range, over the summer when the Braves never responded, Schuerholz said.

"What that did was to signal what we could fully expect," the GM said. Asked how much Boras was asking for, Schuerholz held his right hand over his head. "I can't reach that high," he quipped.

"It was so far removed from what we could even consider doing," Schuerholz added.

"We have to use our assets in the most effective way to put the best 25 people on the field," Schuerholz said.

(Yahoo Sports)

2007-10-03 11:03:11
55.   ToyCannon
AROD - Raises Hand
Barry Bonds - Raises Hand
2007-10-03 11:03:14
56.   Humma Kavula
37 I'm definitely with the ARONS, but even DTers who think the Dodgers should go after him don't necessarily agree that ARON is the right course of action. Some people feel that 2008 might be a good time for an incremental upgrade (Jones/Hunter/Rowand) and that 2009 is the time for the big splurge -- Miguel Cabrera, Johan Santana, etc.

I see their point, but disagree. I believe that for the paycheck those guys would get, they would likely not provide enough improvement over Ethier.

For me, it's ARON.

2007-10-03 11:05:11
57.   JT Dutch

... I don't think there should be any form of instant replay provision in baseball, particularly any rule that allows for ejecting a star player from the game -- I think that's a slap in the face of paying customers.

I am a fan of the human element having a place in baseball; there are three rules I would implement with regards to umpires:

1 - No umpire should use his position of authority to grind an axe against a player, or to fuel a rivalry or grudge against a player.

2 - No umpire should make a spectacle of himself, or otherwise make a mockery of the game he's working.

3 - All umpires should be subject to detailed evaluation after each season, with all umpire errors archived and organized according to different situations (balls/strikes, calls at bases, implementation of on-field rules in a prompt manner, professional conduct, etc.) -- and before he is permitted to work in the major leagues the next season, he should receive training in any situation where he is evaluated as unsatisfactory.

2007-10-03 11:05:46
58.   CajunDodger
I am on that bandwagon with one small (OK not so small) exception: Miguel Cabrera.
2007-10-03 11:07:50
59.   wronghanded
I will formally nominate myself as president of the POOCOWL (Pierre Out Of Center Or We Lose). It seems many of you greatly underrate the importance of defense in this game (especially up the middle). Signing A-Rod would be great but I feel that our team would still be destined to lose with Pierre as our everyday CFer. I stated yesterday that our team is still built on quality pitching and the best way that our team can compliment this strength is to improve defensively.

Therefore: Andruw, Hunter or Rowand > A-Rod to the Dodgers.

2007-10-03 11:07:54
60.   Jon Weisman
I want Piazza to be our backup catcher and I want Delwyn Young to learn to be our emergency catcher so that both can pinch-hit at will. How's that???
2007-10-03 11:09:40
61.   Terry A
42 - He used to be Andy Jones; he changed his name to Druw after completing anger management training.
2007-10-03 11:10:06
62.   Humma Kavula
58 The difference is that Miguel Cabrera will require players in trade. A-Rod can be had for money only -- a lot of money, of course, but no players.

That said, if he is available and if the Dodgers do not hamstring themselves in other areas by giving up too much for him... because he is one of the best players in baseball, I will happily accept him on my team.

I now expect Howard Fox to find something in my comment and make a play on words to imply that Miguel Cabrera is fat. Howard -- the floor is yours.

2007-10-03 11:10:41
63.   Terry A
60 - I wondered if Piazza might return as a backup. If he will, that would be great. Plus, Plaschke could write another column about that big fat jerk Brad Penny who won't give up his uniform number.
2007-10-03 11:10:55
64.   WillieD
From the previous thread, re ARONS... I just wanted to say, Aron's is or at least was a pretty decent record store, in LA.
2007-10-03 11:13:48
65.   MC Safety
59- I can't recall anyone ever doubting defensive importance here. It is universally known Juan Pierre has a noodle for an arm. It's just some people don't get Ned signed him because he likes him. It's a philosophical thing, and I just can't envision any trade of JP unless Ned is fired.
2007-10-03 11:14:19
66.   Humma Kavula
59 No one disagrees with you. Pierre is the worst regular on the Dodgers and the biggest structural problem on the team. But I -- and, I expect, most of the ARONS -- take it as a given Pierre to play at least 162 games in CF for the Dodgers next year. If Colletti liked him enough before the start of this season to outbid all comers, what would he see this season that would change his mind?

If that given is wrong -- and it might be -- then ARONS falls apart... but I just can't imagine it's wrong.

2007-10-03 11:16:12
67.   Humma Kavula
That should say "...take it as a given that Pierre will play at least 162 games..."
2007-10-03 11:18:09
68.   MC Safety
64- I liked Aron's as well. Amoeba can be a bit much.
2007-10-03 11:18:15
69.   wronghanded
65 JP to left, one of the FA CFs and Kemp in right. JP's arm will be hidden in left and we will have a track team in the OF. Ethier becomes expendable but I really think that he is destined for mediocrity anyway, so why not try to package him in a trade for an additional young arm?
2007-10-03 11:21:02
70.   MC Safety
69-It's silly to say Ethier is destined for anything with the way he has been played.
2007-10-03 11:21:42
71.   Jon Weisman
Was Luis Gonzalez's arm hidden in left? It's sort of like batting Pierre eighth - shifting Pierre doesn't really help all that much if he's still in the lineup every day.

How about Pierre as the emergency catcher??? He and Piazza can compare throws to second base.

2007-10-03 11:22:04
72.   Humma Kavula
69 JP's arm might be hidden in left, but his bat will be like a huge zit on the end of his nose. There will be no concealing it.
2007-10-03 11:22:14
73.   wronghanded
70 Look at the difference in production between Ethier and Kemp, they were both in the same situation.
2007-10-03 11:22:27
74.   Disabled List
60 You're in the Mike Piazza and Delwyn Young Backing Up Russ Martin club. MPADYBURM.

You may be the sole member.

2007-10-03 11:24:28
75.   Bob Timmermann
Juan Pierre as a lefty-throwing catcher would be wrong on so many levels.
2007-10-03 11:25:21
76.   wronghanded
71 Where is a weak arm more costly to a team? I would say center, in left you have a shorter throw to 3rd and Home (or the cutoff man), plus CFs are responsible for twice as many balls in the gap as corner OFs.
2007-10-03 11:26:05
77.   CajunDodger
I am not one to love the fact that Pierre is our everyday CFer, but I do not think that he is so bad as to say that we can not win with him on our squad. Most of the ammo assailing him revolves around his contract (too long for too much money), but his contract is not debilitating as a percentage of our overall payroll.

I think that it is safe to say that Repko, when healthy provides the same play for a 90% discount, but Pierre was on a Marlins team that won the WS.

I don't think that he will be the reason we win a WS, but I also think that we can win despite his shortcomings.

2007-10-03 11:29:08
78.   Improbable88
60 How much, I wonder, would "back-up Piazza" cost us?

Maybe the equivalent of both Lieberthal and the Tomato last year (since he could fill both roles)?

2007-10-03 11:29:53
79.   Andrew Shimmin
76- How many more runs did Pierre's arm cost, this year, than Gonzalez's?
2007-10-03 11:30:11
80.   Hythloday
36 - You're referring to Prisoner's Dilemma and iterated Prisoner's Dilemma. Neither is necessarily appropriate for this situation. Free agency strikes me as more of a Stag Hunt scenario, which is what you describe later.

Cooperation has the best payoff (i.e. keep player salaries down or at least reduce inflation), but trust is highly problematic. By paying Andruw $20 million per year an owner is not screwing the other owners. But he also isn't leaving the hunting ground empty handed.

2007-10-03 11:30:12
81.   Jon Weisman
76 - It's more costly in center, I agree, but I'm just saying that moving Pierre to another position or another batting order spot does very little in the grand scheme of things.
2007-10-03 11:30:46
82.   KG16
73 - So, you're ready to say that a guy with a line of .295/.357/.464 in 843 career at bats is going to be nothing more than mediorce? Really?

74 - I'd be willing to join that group. But I'm more prone to the Young At Second and Kent Anywhere Else Club, right now.

2007-10-03 11:30:53
83.   MC Safety
76- I think your splitting peas. He has a bad arm no matter what position he plays.

Ethier has shown he can hit for average with decent power. Its not a stretch to figure he could hit 20-25 homers over a full season next year imo.

2007-10-03 11:32:30
84.   wronghanded
79 If I could find a quantifiable number I'd give it to you but I'll just go ahead and say a lot more!
2007-10-03 11:32:53
85.   Daniel Zappala
I'm for any hot stove trade that gets Juan Pierre off the team.

Presumably you don't mean Kemp+Loney+Pierre for Santana. But that is one way to get rid of him. :-)

2007-10-03 11:32:58
86.   KG16
82 - and by "Kent Anywhere Else" I mean any other major league team
2007-10-03 11:33:03
87.   Humma Kavula
81 Right. The biggest problem with Pierre is not his arm -- it is his bat. Any solution that involves replacing Pierre in CF but not getting him off the team entirely is fruitless.

And I don't think he's leaving the Dodgers, for a variety of reasons.

2007-10-03 11:33:37
88.   D4P
By paying Andruw $20 million per year an owner is not screwing the other owners

But aren't there negative externalities from the standpoint of other GMs? If Jones's crappy .222/.311/.413/.724 line is deemed to be worth 20/year, won't that inevitably drive up the price for other players above what it would have been if Jones "only" signed for 5/year?

2007-10-03 11:33:50
89.   ToyCannon
2007-10-03 11:34:01
90.   Daniel Zappala
83 I thought splitting peas was only done in lovely Buellton, California. Elsewhere, we split hairs.
2007-10-03 11:34:27
91.   wronghanded
81 We both agree that he is an overall liability but why not try to minimize his shortcomings? I honestly think his defense has hurt us worse than his offense.
2007-10-03 11:34:28
92.   blue22
82 - .295/.357/.464 in 843 career at bats

Playing devil's advocate here, but that's about league average production from a LFer (his OPS+ was 104 last year). If leftfield and thirdbase are your only realistic areas to improve, can you do better than league average production there?

2007-10-03 11:35:21
93.   Andrew Shimmin
84- If you can't quantify it, or even offer a reasonable estimate, how confident are you that it really is a lot, and why are you that confident?
2007-10-03 11:38:34
94.   wronghanded
93 How about the fact that Pierre had 375 total chances this year vs. Gonzo's 197, thats about as close as we can get in evaluating how many times a weak arm has hurt us.
2007-10-03 11:39:36
95.   Humma Kavula
91 We both agree that he is an overall liability but why not try to minimize his shortcomings? I honestly think his defense has hurt us worse than his offense.

First, I disagree that his defense has hurt more than his offense. He's the worst CF bat in the game.

Second, even if defense is his worst shortcoming, moving him to left will make a difference in, what, ten runs over the course of a season? Maybe? He'll still have the opportunity to be terrible in LF.

Finally, as the worst CF bat in the game, he'd also be the worst LF bat in the game -- only the difference would be a lot greater. Ethier is likely, at worst, an average LF.

And: the $20 million that the upgrade in center would cost is better spent elsewhere.

2007-10-03 11:41:05
96.   wronghanded
93 If you divide TC's by games started you get a ratio of 2.31 per game from Pierre vs. 1.55 per game from Gonzo.
2007-10-03 11:43:34
97.   KG16
92 - I think Ethier's got tremendous upside (remember he's only 25), and he's been dealing with Outfield Roulette this year, which one cannot imagine is good for his psyche. His Ks are down this year, despite more ABs, his walks improved (but a few of those are from batting 8th and situational IBBs). His natural progression should be towards improvement and with a career OPS+ of 108, I'll take that over a guy who is closer to his decline with a contract that will dictate he play through his decline.

But really, it depends on where you hit him. I think he'd be a great player to put in the 2 hole. Line drive hitter, decent power, gets on base, doesn't strike out. I don't expect him to be a 3-4-5 hitter (that's what Kemp, Loney, and Martin are for). He'd probably also make a pretty good 6 hitter, but that's where I expect LaRoche to end up long term.

2007-10-03 11:44:30
98.   MC Safety
90- Googling " Buellton, Ca split pea soup " just gave me my idea for this weekend's monthly in state getaway with the old ball and chain. As a fellow split pea soup fan i want to thank you.
2007-10-03 11:44:59
99.   GoBears
I think there are two reasons that Pierre in LF is even worse than Pierre in CF. The obvious one is that he hits like a poor-hitting CFer, so wasting a power position on him just makes his hitting a bigger liability.

But another problem, as I see it, is that his arm is not his only defensive flaw. He gets horrible jumps and takes inefficient routes to the ball. In CF, his speed can make up for some of that - there's so much space out there that he can outrun his mistakes some of the time. In LF, balls would bounce off the wall before he could get to them.

Granted, this would probably matter about 3 times a season, but it's a reason that both offensively and defensively, CF is the only place he's remotely useful. If he can't play there, he can't play anywhere.

2007-10-03 11:46:10
100.   Humma Kavula
96 This is murky ground. No two people can agree on what kind of fielder Pierre is. There are some very respected people who think he's above average. Others think he's the worst in the game.

I watch him and he looks terrible to me, but it is certainly possible that with his speed, he is getting to balls that other CFs might not get.

I would encourage you to try to figure it out.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-10-03 11:49:46
101.   wronghanded
100 Their is no question that he can cover ground out there. But I would have to ask you if we are evaluating speed as an asset in the OF which is better: Ethier, Pierre, Kemp or Pierre, Hunter/Jones/Rowand, Kemp?
2007-10-03 11:50:55
102.   D4P
Game thread for the first playoff game is up.
2007-10-03 11:52:30
103.   Humma Kavula
101 Well, you have to consider their bats, too, and you have to consider the $20 million for Hunter/Jones/Rowand...

So I'll take Ethier, Pierre, Kemp, plus $20 million to spend elsewhere on the team.

2007-10-03 11:54:20
104.   ToyCannon
Lonnie Smith
2007-10-03 11:55:40
105.   wronghanded
103 In other words, just evaluating things from a strictly defensive perspective, the latter of the 2 choices is the stronger. One of those 3 in CF could potentially off-set Pierre's lack of power in left as well.
2007-10-03 11:56:37
106.   kinbote
buying high on mike lowell seems like a frighteningly plausible move for colletti.

it would be a small insult to nomar, but nomar's only signed for one year, unlike pierre, whose anchor is fixed for four more.

i see a move for a 3b as more likely than a cf.

2007-10-03 11:57:20
107.   El Lay Dave
94 ...Pierre had 375 total chances this year...

Are you sure? Pierre had 366 putouts alone this year, and I think he must have fielded more than 9 singles to center, so I think 375 is very low.

2007-10-03 11:58:37
108.   Humma Kavula
105 It's hard to say which is better defensively. I'm no defense expert.

But I do believe that the offensive deficiencies are greater than the worst defensive deficiences. I also believe that trying to solve the defense problem without looking at the team as a whole is foolish. I'll stand by my answer in 103 .

Gotta go to a meeting, which is too bad, because I love arguing about this stuff.

2007-10-03 11:58:59
109.   wronghanded
107 Its listed as 375 on
2007-10-03 11:59:47
110.   Humma Kavula
106 Agreed. Which is why we shouldn't put the idea in anyone's head.

Don't say the L-word!

2007-10-03 12:00:08
111.   Bob Timmermann
Fielding a single isn't a chance unless there is an error made on the play.
2007-10-03 12:00:16
112.   wronghanded
108 I love debating these things too, I'm glad I found this blog and I hope you don't take offense to my banter.
2007-10-03 12:01:52
113.   ToyCannon
I fail to see how any combo of the potential FA center fielders is better then Ethier/JP/Kemp and saving 15-20 million to be used somewhere else.

If were not replacing JP and replacing Ethier I don't see the point unless your name is Barry Bonds.

2007-10-03 12:04:19
114.   wronghanded
113 would you agree that Hunter, Jones (minus 07) and Rowand (arguably) are > than Ethier offensively, if so then it does make sense as it would also improve our defense.
2007-10-03 12:04:26
115.   El Lay Dave
Aaron Rowand is 30. Aaron Rowand's four full-time seasons (two with the White Sox, two with the Phillies):

Year BA/OBP/Slg/OPS+

2004: .310/.361/.544/126
2005: .270/.329/.407/93
2006: .262/.321/.425/87
2007: .309/.374/.515/125

Which Rowand will someone be getting in 2008? I think signing Rowand is also buying high.

2007-10-03 12:05:48
116.   JoeyP
I'd rather spend 15 mils on Andruw Jones, than 7.5/7.5 on more crap like Tomko/Hendrickson/Gonzo/Loaiza etc..

If the McCourts just want to bank that money, ok. But it still doesnt make the team better.

If they want to put it into the A-Rod fund, then great.

But just automatically assuming that 15-20 mils would be better spent on someone other than Andruw Jones may not be realistic in this off-season.

2007-10-03 12:06:35
117.   blue22
114 - Perhaps next year, but I worry that any one of those players becomes an albatross contract, nullifying any short-term advantage they may bring to the team. While I think you can definitely upgrade from Ethier, those guys are going to be expensive and around for a long time.
2007-10-03 12:07:27
118.   Bob Timmermann
The major league record for chances in a season by an outfielder (and he played center) is by Taylor Douthit of the 1928 Cardinals.


Chet Lemon had 524 in 1977 for the White Sox in just 149 games.

2007-10-03 12:07:35
119.   LogikReader
It's game time!

Shall we mosey on over to HA or MBR for our game threads?

2007-10-03 12:08:44
120.   wronghanded
116 agreed
2007-10-03 12:09:09
121.   El Lay Dave
111 Then Total Chances is not a good term for the argument posed earlier.

Generally, isn't home plate equidistant for all OFs except for the part of CF that is deeper than the LF/RF walls, at which point the CF is not generally throwing runners out at the plate, but just trying to hit the cutoff?

2007-10-03 12:11:13
122.   GoBears
I'm not a Torii Hunter fan. I think his defense has declined quite a bit (unlike Andruw Jones's), and I've never liked him much as a hitter. I'd take Hunter over Pierre, but not over Ethier (also considering their ages).
2007-10-03 12:12:16
123.   blue22
106 - But you have the org's top position prospect waiting to take over third. I wish I knew what camp Ned puts LaRoche in - the Loney/Kemp/Martin/Bills/Broxton "untouchable" camp or the Navarro/Guzman/Edwin "get em outta here" camp.

If Ned has even a little confidence in LaRoche, he could sign a lefty platoon mate to go with Nomar (is Tyler Houston available?) and let LaRoche kick down the door from Vegas.

2007-10-03 12:13:03
124.   jasonungar07
103 113 Because Ned Coletti, not you guys, will be using that 15-20 million someplace else. Also, IMO the weakest spot on our team in terms of posistion players is CF (offense and defense). Not anywhere else. Man oh man arguing about what is worse Pierre's offense or defense for 50 million. I wish I could be so lucky.
2007-10-03 12:21:07
125.   El Lay Dave
122 I'm with you, considering their salaries also. Hunter's career OBP is .324, with his last three seasons being peak at .334 - .337. He's had exactly two seasons with an OPS+ over 112, 2002 and this season. He will be 32 next year.
2007-10-03 12:22:42
126.   StolenMonkey86
116 - If we get rid of Pierre, then certainly.

I'm not convinced, though, that $15 million on Jones is a significant upgrade over Ethier or Kemp.

2007-10-03 12:25:48
127.   blue22
Torii Hunter, Mike Lowell, and Kyle Lohse head my "I'll just be devastated" list if signed this offseason.
2007-10-03 12:25:59
128.   underdog
Stupid MLBTV playoff blackout... grumble... Why is this game blacked out but Monday's wasn't?
2007-10-03 12:27:08
129.   El Lay Dave
116 126 $15 million? Do you think Boras won't be able to get Jones at least Vernon Wells money, 7 years/$126M, which is an $18 million/year average?
2007-10-03 12:27:58
130.   Bob Timmermann
Regular season games aren't subject to blackout.
2007-10-03 12:32:47
131.   thinkblue0
looking at our salary for next year we've definitely got some cash to spend.

But seeing 16.5 mill combined for Pierre and Nomar made me wretch. Is there ANY possibility we could dump Nomar's contract on someone for a D-level prospect?

2007-10-03 12:34:10
132.   underdog
130 Sigh.
2007-10-03 12:37:59
133.   blue22
131 - No trade clause for Nomar. Not going anywhere unless he wants it to be so.
2007-10-03 12:38:54
134.   thinkblue0
Not sure if anyone has brought up the possibility of Dunn or Bay for a power bat.

Bay is signed reasonably for the next couple years and could provide a nice LF bat with Pierre (gag) and Kemp. Eithier would be the odd man out.

Dunn has one year left if they pick up the option. He K's a ton but I wouldn't mind having 40 bombs on the team next year.

2007-10-03 12:40:48
135.   GoBears
134. Dunn would be terrific. But he's just about the last guy Colletti would like. Well, OK, maybe 3rd after JD Drew and Pat Burrell.

If the new GM in Pittsburgh were to dump Bay, he might get fired before Opening Day.

2007-10-03 12:42:43
136.   KG16
134/135 - Plus, Dunn's defense combined with Pierre makes for a very ugly season
2007-10-03 12:44:33
137.   thinkblue0

There have been some rumors going around that Bay might be available. who knows?


True, but the bottom line is that we need someone who can hit a baseball over a fence. I agree with everyone that replacing Eithier makes no sense for the most part, but if it's for a Dunn or Bay then it probably is worth it to get that proven HR bat in the lineup.

2007-10-03 12:46:04
138.   Bob Timmermann
Go do some work!
2007-10-03 12:46:17
139.   blue22
135 - If the new GM in Pittsburgh were to dump Bay, he might get fired before Opening Day.

Not if he were to get Ethier and McDonald from LA for him. That would be a similar trade to the one that brought Bay to Pittsburgh in the first place, which is about the only thing the Littlefield did right in his whole tenure.

2007-10-03 12:48:15
140.   ToyCannon
Jason Bay was pretty bad this year. Hopefully it was his knee and not his diet that caused such a sharp turnaround in his numbers.
2007-10-03 12:48:23
141.   regfairfield
134 Bay quickly went from one of my favorite players to a don't touch with a 10 foot pole guy. Unless you can get him at a massive discount, I don't think he'll be that much better than Ethier next year. He got out OPSed by the Jack Wilson. That should say it all.
2007-10-03 12:52:55
142.   Sam DC
Wes Helms?
2007-10-03 12:52:57
143.   Eric Stephen
134 Realistically, the only way the Dodgers can get Dunn is if the Reds decline his option.

If the Reds pick up his $13m option, Dunn has a no-trade clause until June 15, 2008, and a limited one after that.

2007-10-03 12:54:57
144.   KG16
137 - home runs are over rated. Of the top four teams in the NL in HRs only the Phillies are in the playoffs. Arizona, Colorado, and Chicago are all in the middle of the pack. Same goes in the AL, the Yankees lead the AL, Boston and Cleveland are middle of the pack, and Anaheim is way low.

The question is, what does an extra, 30 home runs accomplish over the course of the season? And really, given the natural progression of Ethier and Kemp, it will likely be much less than 330 HRs.

2007-10-03 12:55:26
145.   Bluebleeder87
No trade clause for Nomar. Not going anywhere unless he wants it to be so.

Let's just ship him back to the Cubbies, do they have a good SS or 2nd baseman?

2007-10-03 12:57:37
146.   jasonungar07
Andruw Jones was out OPSed by Luis Gonzales!
2007-10-03 13:01:33
147.   regfairfield
144 On average, an additional 42 runs, all things being equal of course.

Of course, in a vaccum home runs are overrated, 30 home runs from Tony Batista means a lot less than 30 home runs from Travis Hafner.

2007-10-03 13:03:29
148.   Bluebleeder87
5 K's in 3 innings for Francis.
2007-10-03 13:11:47
149.   KG16
147 - so, an additional .259 runs per game?

Would that have been enough for the Dodgers to over come their other flaws and injuries this year? I suppose if all 42 runs came against Colorado, San Diego, and Arizona, it would have.

Still, what can we expect in HR totals from Ethier and Kemp, allowed to play a full season next year? And what would Dunn's projection be with only three games in Cincy instead of 81?

2007-10-03 13:11:48
150.   StolenMonkey86
145 - I think we got a better chance getting him to fill the hole that is Julio Lugo in Boston.

Nomar's staying in LA, but can he play 2nd? I think he'd be a defensive upgrade over Kent. I think Brad Penny may be a defensive upgrade over Kent.

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-10-03 13:12:05
151.   Eric Stephen
Even though Jason Bay fell off a cliff this season, I wonder how good the Padres would have been if they didn't make the Bay/O.Perez for Giles deal in 2003.

I would have made that deal in a heartbeat if I was San Diego, but you can make a reasonable case that the Padres could have won 4 straight division titles had they held on to Bay and Perez. (I realize trades don't happen in a vacuum)

Giles, 2004-2007: .280/.384/.443, 122 OPS+ in 2654 PA, $32.5m total salary

Bay, 2004-2007: .281/.373/.514, 128 OPS+ in 2482 PA, $5.66m total salary (plus two more arb years in 2008-09)

O.Perez, 2004-2007: 101 starts, 588.2 IP, 98 ERA+, $5.027m total salary (plus arb in 2008)

2007-10-03 13:14:39
152.   StolenMonkey86
146 - Jones had a PrOPS of .828, so he got a bit unlucky. Seriously, the dude had a .248 BABIP - that doesn't mean he sucks.

It just means he's not necessarily better than Ethier (though I'd take him over Pierre).

2007-10-03 13:20:09
153.   silverwidow
Wow, Francis is DOMINATING. I hope the Minotaur turns out like him.
2007-10-03 13:22:10
154.   Improbable88
153 Um, I hope Kershaw turns out way better than Jeff Francis.
2007-10-03 13:30:52
155.   silverwidow
154 - You are correct, sir. Back-to-back jacks.
2007-10-03 13:31:18
156.   trainwreck
Hopefully, we won't have to be paranoid about Logan White to the Cardinals.
2007-10-03 13:31:35
157.   fanerman
Is Pierre gonna be a defensive upgrade over Ethier?

If he's not and they're basically a push, and if Ethier's offense is basically a push with Jones/Rowand/Hunter's offense, then doesn't the idea of signing Jones/Rowand/Hunter add up to paying $15-20 million for the CF defense upgrade, Ethier's production, and the ability to trade Ethier?

2007-10-03 13:32:42
158.   CajunDodger
I do not advocate a one-trick pony like Dunn for the Dodgers, but it is a bit disconcerting not having a player hit as many homers in two years as Prince Fielder hit this year alone.

I really am tapped as to what to want from this offseason. I like an offensive core of Martin, Kemp, and Loney but I do not see LaRoche and Ethier being a part of the long term plan if they can trade them for parts. I do not necessarily agree, but I think that is the way Ned will see it.

2007-10-03 13:34:25
159.   Mr Blue
Since Pierre is pretty much a given somewhere in the outfield, we can't afford a defensive catastrophe like Dunn. He makes Moose Marshall look like Willie Mays out there.
2007-10-03 13:36:25
160.   underdog
138 I did some work, thankyouverymuch! Just spent an hour+ staring at all the crummy DVDs coming out in October and separating the less crummy titles out. (Actually, there's some good stuff coming, including Day Watch, O Lucky Man!, the last Sopranos set, Into Great Silence, and Planet Terror...)

Looks like we have a ball game here.

2007-10-03 13:40:15
161.   Frip
4 "This is part of what makes Dan Patrick's show so great."

He is not great. He is slow minded and pseudo sophisticated. He speaks in questions so as to come off as reflective...introducing every notion, no matter how banal, in the form of an "intriguing" question...oooh how coolly regal and detached. Inquisitive! Don't we know, only barbarians would be so uncouth as to have Opinions. His brain works at the speed of molasses, which I suppose to some gives the impression of thoughtfulness. He's not a bullying ape, which is all we can ask for on radio, I'll give you that.

36 "GMs who sign Barry Zitos and Andruw Joneses to 100 million contracts aren't exactly getting a leg up on non-cheaters."

Well the theory is still correct, you pay more, so you can get better product. No one says it's a sure thing in practice, or that management will be a good judge of talent. But yes, in probability, paying more WILL give them a leg up. (And speaking of game theory, you sort of stacked the deck there with the all-too-perfect examples of Zito and Jones. One could just as easily have sighted examples that did work out.)

2007-10-03 13:40:26
162.   StolenMonkey86
158 - Dunn's not a 1 trick pony, he's a 3 true outcome player. A proven one. His defense is suspect, though.

I'm not sure if Ethier/Kemp losing playing time to him would be worth it, but I'd take him over Pierre easily.

The 2nd paragraph will hereafter be referred to as opinion 3.5.

2007-10-03 13:40:42
163.   JoeyP
At some point, you have to give up something in return for something else.

Sure, Dunn's defense isnt the best.

But what is more important?

High OPS every day player in the lineup.
Or left field defense?

I'm inclined to always take offense, and stack the pitching staff with ground ball/K inducing pitchers.

Corner OF defense---is it really a priority, when you consider the dearth of Dodger power?

2007-10-03 13:43:41
164.   regfairfield
162 I don't think striking out counts as a trick, but power/discipline should be considered two of them.
2007-10-03 13:47:24
165.   D4P
I don't think striking out counts as a trick

Nor, paradoxically, as a treat.

2007-10-03 13:48:29
166.   JT Dutch
... A little curious that the TBS talking head is referring to Frank Thomas a "sure" Hall of Famer.

I doubt that highly.

2007-10-03 13:49:57
167.   Bluebleeder87
the thought of Dunn & Pierre in the same outfield scares me. The more you luck at it the more I think IF we get a big name guy I really hope it's an infielder (ARONS UNITE!!) I'm coming to terms in knowing Pierre is stuck with us for 5 YEARS, oh Ned, why!!!
2007-10-03 13:50:10
168.   CajunDodger
Not the best choice of words, and he does walk quite a bit, but he has always struck me as a DH after the age of 33 and will be a brutal defender if he is signed for more than 3 years.
2007-10-03 13:50:55
169.   bhsportsguy
156 As I posted on The Griddle, if you read the linked article, you'll see that the Cardinals are keeping their current Scouting Director, Player Development person in place so I would seriously doubt anyone like Logan White (or Kim Ng) take a job, even with a historic franchise like St. Louis without being able to have any say in that area.
2007-10-03 13:51:27
170.   ToyCannon
He is a sure HOF. He played enough games at 1st base to erase the DH stigma.

Your right, Dunn in LF I could live with and yes he'd be be a big enough upgrade over Ethier that I'd be more then happy to have him.

2007-10-03 13:52:50
171.   regfairfield
166 He should be, though I'm sure various lunkheads will keep him out for a while.

All time ranks:
On base - 18
Slug - 20
Home runs - 18
OPS+ - 19
RBI - 22

2007-10-03 13:52:59
172.   CajunDodger
Here's one for you: Pierre will be a Dodger through two more presidential elections...


2007-10-03 13:55:32
173.   fanerman
163 Like others have said, you can avoid the "offense at the cost of defense" issue by signing a certain 3B/SS with a 150 OPS+...
2007-10-03 13:58:05
174.   JT Dutch

"He played enough games at 1st base to erase the DH stigma."

... He was so bad at 1B that all most people could think about was that he SHOULD have continued to be a DH.

Thomas was poor defensively, slow on the bases, and hit 513 career homers in a juiced-ball era. He might make the Hall but I don't see him as a shoo-in.

2007-10-03 13:58:42
175.   wronghanded
166 500 HRs is the benchmark right? The guy was one of the most dominating hitters for a good portion of the 90's, he was also one of the first power/average guys that we had seen in a long time.
2007-10-03 13:59:45
176.   Andrew Shimmin
Just to be clear, I wasn't arguing that CF defense isn't more important than LF defense, just that getting Pierre's garbage arm out of center is probably not the greatest marginal improvement available.
2007-10-03 14:00:02
177.   fanerman
174 But Frank Thomas doesn't have the juice stigma, does he? So his 500+ home runs are "clean" in a dirty era?
2007-10-03 14:00:14
178.   jasonungar07
173 That OPS+ for arguably the best player on the planet is 7 points behind the Big Hurt's 18 season career average. Amazing.
2007-10-03 14:00:26
179.   Bob Timmermann
Hasn't the presidential campaign ended yet? My Mike Gravel lawn signs are looking a little shabby.
2007-10-03 14:02:54
180.   regfairfield
174 But even then, he was the second most dominant hitter of the juiced ball era (behind only Barry) in terms of VORP. Thomas and Bonds were leagues ahead of every other hitter in the 90s. The man should easily make it in.
2007-10-03 14:03:32
181.   fanerman
178 I just picked that number randomly, but it's close to A-Rod's career value (of 148). But Big Hurt's career average is pretty darn impressive when you put it that way. A-Rod had the whole SS thing going for awhile though, and he's never been a poor defender.
2007-10-03 14:05:05
182.   fanerman
Frank Thomas had an OPS+ of 212 in the strike shortened 1994 season. Yowza.
2007-10-03 14:07:48
183.   jasonungar07
Oh I knock on A-rod or your comment, it just shows really how amazing Thomas was as a hitter. The list of active guys who are in the same ballpark as him are guys we probably think will make the Hall or come real close...
2007-10-03 14:11:47
184.   Disabled List
Frank Thomas, Ken Griffey Jr. and Barry Bonds were the pre-eminent sluggers of the early 90s, which was the last gasp of the pre-steroids era.

All three ought to be slam dunks for the Hall of Fame. YMMV with Bonds, of course.

2007-10-03 14:11:56
185.   trainwreck
I don't know if you are joking, but I am a Mike Gravel supporter.

Go Gravel!

2007-10-03 14:24:47
186.   D4P
Gravel rocks!

Just kidding. I don't know much about him. I saw him recently on Bill Maher's HBO show, but that's about it.

2007-10-03 14:25:19
187.   Bob Timmermann
I want a Gravel-Brownback Unity Ticket!
2007-10-03 14:26:34
188.   GoBears
Frank Thomas is one of the best hitters of all time. There is no way he's not a HOFer. Only the DH stigma will keep him from being a unanimous choice on the first ballot. And that's idiotic. How many HOF 1bmen were any better than adequate defensively? A few, I'm sure, but not many. Most were just like Thomas - big boppers.
2007-10-03 14:30:40
189.   StolenMonkey86

Andre Ethier 2007: 5.3
Adam Dunn 2007: 6.0

2007-10-03 14:32:34
190.   StolenMonkey86
Hypothetically, if we were to trade Furcal, who could we get from Boston or Toronto?
2007-10-03 14:34:01
191.   ToyCannon
Future HOF Frank Thomas:)
2007-10-03 14:34:58
192.   ToyCannon
The World Series contest quick and dirty matrix is up.

2007-10-03 14:37:11
193.   KG16
187 - I'm not sure I'm going to be able to keep my late lunch down now... thanks

190 - Alex Cora and Julio Lugo?

2007-10-03 14:37:13
194.   StolenMonkey86
191 - worst case scenario with that one is he platoons at 1b with Loney. But we wouldn't have to pay any of Furcal's salary.
2007-10-03 14:41:05
195.   Bob Timmermann
Not a case of false advertising.
2007-10-03 14:41:18
196.   StolenMonkey86
Accardo walked quite a few for a closer, but 4 HR in 67.3 innings and a 2.14 ERA is pretty nice. So nice of the Giants to have traded him for Shea Hillenbrand. :)
2007-10-03 14:44:04
197.   silverwidow
Platinum Sobrero for Utley
2007-10-03 14:44:19
198.   ToyCannon
With very few keystrokes it could be a pretty spreadsheet.
2007-10-03 14:44:24
199.   silverwidow
2007-10-03 14:45:16
200.   StolenMonkey86
192 - ha, I'm the only one that picked the Phillies for the series.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2007-10-03 14:47:33
201.   fanerman
192 Is the contest over?
2007-10-03 14:47:51
202.   fanerman
201 Obviously, I only mean if the time to take entries is over.
2007-10-03 14:48:03
203.   scareduck
Bob T. -- any idea when the last golden sombrero occurred in a postseason game?
2007-10-03 14:48:43
204.   StolenMonkey86
201 - Update - Contest is closed at 1:14 PM PCT
2007-10-03 14:49:47
205.   fanerman
204 Ah boo. Work always gets in the way of the fun.
2007-10-03 14:54:28
206.   ToyCannon
Out of 35 entries only 4 picked the NL to win, and nobody picked the Diamondbacks or the Cubs.
The RedSox have the most support with 11 entries. I guess it is not just an East Coast bias since I'd say that most of the entries are from the best coast.
2007-10-03 14:55:59
207.   WillieD
68 I always thought of Aron's as one of the main record stores in LA. They consistently have a few things I'd buy. I've only been to Amoeba's Berkeley store, a few times. It's best to have several sources for one's music. This is going to date me, but I really miss the reign of LPs (and 45s.) Those big LPs were just more fun... Although, it's fun to sit at one's PC, and see all sorts of music streaming in. More than a guy can listen to. Perfect. (And a footnote, thanks to Kinbote for talking up Wilco's "Sky Blue Sky" yesterday on DT. It's fitting my mood on a rainy afternoon with the playoffs on TV, just right. Wish we still had Victorino.)

Not that I'm a big Rockies fan or anything, but after their dramatic defeat of the hated Padres on Monday, I'm kind of rooting for them. Also, Boston over the fake "LA" team still in it. And, as far as that goes, I'd love to see the Rams back in LA where they belong. Deacon Jones! Yeah!

2007-10-03 14:58:23
208.   Gen3Blue
I know I had communion with a Philly's fan or two this year, and among my relatives there is a run of at least 2 generations.
But in truth I can't help liking both these teams, and even watching the game hasn't weeded out my true allegiance.
2007-10-03 15:03:29
209.   regfairfield
There are now four teams that have had equal or less success than the Dodgers in the post season since 1988.

Fortunately the Royals, Devil Rays, and Rangers aren't going to be doing much for a while, though I worry about the Brewers.

2007-10-03 15:17:18
210.   Humma Kavula
209 It's really going to blow your mind when I tell you:

The Brewers worry about you, too.

2007-10-03 15:18:30
211.   WillieD
132 If this hasn't already been mentioned... If you have Extra Innings (as I do as well) do you have TBS (247 on Directv and elsewhere on other providers) as well? It's on TBS anyway.... Long ago, for a while, I had both Dirctv and Dish, when KTLA was on Dish. I'd gotten just Extra Innings on Directv, don't know if they still offer that... So, if you don't have TBS right now, not sure where you'd get it. (On radio ESPN radio is also supposedly carrying all the playoff games, just on radio though.)
2007-10-03 15:26:35
212.   WillieD
211 Meaning, at one time I used to pay somthing like 5.99 a month, plus whatever they'd charge for the seasonal MLB Extra Innings package, to get EI when it wasn't on Dish, in those days. That gave me no TBS on Directv...

Rockies keep rolling. What's gotten into them?

2007-10-03 16:03:17
213.   ToyCannon
Final formatted World Series Contest entrants.

2007-10-03 16:10:50
214.   regfairfield
212 They were a team that could have succeded if everything went right for them this year.

Everything went right for them this year.

2007-10-03 16:12:40
215.   sporky
213 - I was so sure Rollins had his name on the MVP award. It seems that I'm in the minority. Or that I'm not up to speed on something.
2007-10-03 16:15:00
216.   sporky
213 - They're all size large? sniff

Not that I have much of a chance, but still.

2007-10-03 16:16:09
217.   sporky
Crap, I meant :sniff:, not a bold sniff.
2007-10-03 16:19:31
218.   ToyCannon
I may have to come up with another tie breaker by the world series depending on how it looks. I was only expecting about 15 entries, not 35.

Final Score of final game? Any suggestions?

2007-10-03 16:22:20
219.   ToyCannon
If you want another size, it is possible I can return it and get the size you want, but you'd have to wait until I make a sojourn to the Dodger Top Of The Park store.
2007-10-03 16:25:14
220.   sporky
219 - I'm the only one foreseeing a Cubs/Indians WS. You'll probably be fine with the sz. large shirts. Thanks though!
2007-10-03 16:34:36
221.   Jon Weisman
214 - Except for some pretty relevant injuries in their rotation, I'd say.
2007-10-03 16:44:47
222.   Kevin Lewis
Boston is bringing on the pain
2007-10-03 16:45:16
223.   Jon Weisman
222 - Who brought the noise or the funk?
2007-10-03 16:47:57
224.   Kevin Lewis
scratch that Beckett is owning the Angels
2007-10-03 16:49:01
225.   Kevin Lewis
Youk homered in the first, Ortiz homered with one on in third, Ramirez walked, singled in. Beckett has one hit ball going through 4
2007-10-03 16:55:28
226.   bhsportsguy
218 Final score, name the MVP.
2007-10-03 16:56:46
227.   Kevin Lewis
I have the Rockies in 6 (only one I think), so I will take a Martin shirt, thanks.
2007-10-03 17:02:03
228.   Humma Kavula
I am the only person that (a) picked an NL MVP that is (b) actually in the NL but (c) not named Holliday or Rollins.

I do not see Beckett winning NL MVP.

2007-10-03 17:08:02
229.   Jim Hitchcock
211 TBS would trump the EI showing, just like Fox Bay Area blocked the last Dodger game on EI (and, boy, was I sore about not hearing what could be Vinnies last broadcast(in my heart, I know that's not true).

Is anybody getting the TBS HD broadcast on DirecTV with an HD receiver? All I get is a `searching for satellite signal' notice. Actually, I'm getting the notice on all but ESPN, HBO and Showtime HD channels.

2007-10-03 17:09:28
230.   Paul Scott
219 When I win can you return the Large Martin and get me a Medium Choi?
2007-10-03 17:11:39
231.   East Coast Dodger
Hey everyone! I am seemingly the only Dodgers fan in New England, and I have been reading this site most of this season. Thank you for providing such an intelligent forum to discuss a baseball passion! I was growing tired of Buster Olney and John Heyman and whoever writes for the LA Times online. I certainly understand the zealous local folks here and how they feel for the Sawx and Yanks - I do get to watch a lot of good baseball, but the Dodgers games are a tad late for me.

I digress. I get excited about offseasons every year - the possibilities for your team are endless this time of year!

I, too, would love to add A-Rod - I think he gets an unfair rap out here. But I also think the Dodgers could think even bigger. I'm a fan of signing A-Rod if he opts out, then trading for Santana. Yep, that would be costly, but I would try to include Kent and Pierre (Twins may need a replacement CF and always need a DH) and eat as much money as possible, along with either Hu or Abreu (Twins need a middle infielder) and MacDonald. If it costs Kershaw, I'm okay with that. Opinions? Sorry for the long post....

2007-10-03 17:13:14
232.   Jim Hitchcock
231 How ya doin', ECD!
2007-10-03 17:16:52
233.   bhsportsguy
223 Thanks for reposting my heavily researched comment. I know it won't stop the speculation.
2007-10-03 17:19:00
234.   El Lay Dave
231 Are you assuming a Santana trade only if a contract extension is part of it? He is FA-eligible after next season.
2007-10-03 17:21:49
235.   thinkblue0

Makes me glad he's no longer in the NL.

Oh how I long for the old Jason Schmidt.

2007-10-03 17:23:13
236.   KG16
231 - there's been a lot of talk about Santana, the growing consensus seems to be he's a one year rental and it's not worth it unless we can get an extension. I'd give up Abreu, but not Hu. I think with a package like that, we'd have to get some prospects back as well.
2007-10-03 17:29:45
237.   regfairfield
212 True, but they also got 60 strong innings from Morales and Redman, who shouldn't have even been on the team, along with 93 decent (but still better than reasonably expected) innings from Bucholz. That should cover the time lost by Cook and Hirsh (they shouldn't have expected anything out of Lopez to begin with).
2007-10-03 17:38:31
238.   regfairfield
As support for the Andruw Jones argument, I'd look at Mike Lowell's 2005. His batted ball stats didn't change but his BABIP dropped down from .300 to .250. Expect Andruw Jones to bounce back like he did.
2007-10-03 17:41:50
239.   Robert Fiore
Other than wishful thinking, is there any indication that McCourt would even think of making the massive outlay for Rodriguez? I assume that it would be tampering for anyone associated with a team to discuss it openly before Rodriguez exercised his out clause. Signing Rodriguez strikes me as being like the Subway to the Sea: It'd be a nice thing to have but you don't see where the money's coming from.
2007-10-03 17:45:32
240.   Robert Fiore
P.S.: Apologies for being behind, but is there really a chance Kershaw would be ready for the majors next year? He's only 19, right?
2007-10-03 17:49:09
241.   East Coast Dodger
232 - Good, Jim! Glad to finally be a part of all the conversations I've read.

236 - I'd be okay only getting Santana back, but the Twins always have some decent pitching prospects they could throw in. And, yeah, I'd want him to sign an extension with the Dodgers - Zito money, or thereabouts, should do it. But why wouldn't Johan want to stay in LA? Better pitchers' park, easier league, contending team. And we'd have the money, not paying LuGo, Pierre, Kent next year, and then not paying Lowe and Loaiza the following year.

Another idea is to include LaRoche and not include either Hu or Abreu. I know Jon likes LaRoche, and I do too, but I'd move him to make room for A-Rod and obtain Santana. Then, after Furcal leaves, we'd have an all-young positional team save for A-Rod, and a darn good pitching staff, for about the same or less payroll than the Dodgers currently have.

2007-10-03 17:55:26
242.   East Coast Dodger
239 - With all the money coming off the books in the next year or two, and all the young positional talent, there is room to pay for talent at a few spots. And why shouldn't the Dodgers have a top-5 payroll every year in that market and with their attendance?

And I think one of the reasons people watch sports is to witness greatness - is there a rule against the Dodgers having a great team rather than merely a competitive team? It's been maybe 30 years since the last great team (the '88 team inspired me, and still does, but on paper it had no business winning the Series).

2007-10-03 18:15:03
243.   JoeyP
The Rockies improved by 13 or so wins this year due IMO to the substantial improvement at SS.

Going from Clint Barmes to Troy Tulowitski is a huge upgrade.

2007-10-03 18:22:55
244.   bhsportsguy
Either he was hurt or he just had unnecessary surgery.

Per Tony Jackon's ITD

Surgery goes well
Dr. William Meyers repaired a torn muscle in Tony Abreu's abdomen, Recovery time remains six to eight weeks, and he is expected to be at full strength well before the start of spring training.

2007-10-03 18:38:06
245.   El Lay Dave
244 Time to get the grievance settled.
2007-10-03 18:38:26
246.   Sam DC
So many threads . . . I'm exhausted already.

The Top Chef thread is going up at Screen Jam, I assume?

2007-10-03 18:41:31
247.   regfairfield
243 That's more than the difference between early season Nomar and Pujols.

I'd say that's a bit excessive.

2007-10-03 18:41:44
248.   Humma Kavula
233 And why should it stop the speculation? The Dodgers are done this year -- why deny us that little bit of imagination and fun about What Might Be?

Obviously, today (October 3rd), the Dodgers' chances of signing A-Rod are nonexistent, because he has not even opted out of his contract yet. And I would bet that they will remain nonexistent, because I'm personally guessing that the Yankees will back a dump truck full of money up to his door and he'll never opt out.

Still, "what should the Dodgers do this offseason" is -- and should be -- a major topic of discussion around these parts these days, and ignoring A-Rod is impossible.

I get your point and appreciate the work you did in compiling those dates, but as Shakespeare didn't write when the Dodgers died this year: to die, to sleep; to sleep, perchance to dream; ay, there's the rub: for in that sleep of death what dreams may come...

2007-10-03 18:48:23
249.   bhsportsguy
248 I did not expect it to stop the speculation but I was just adding some information so everyone will know when A-Rod and Boras have to opt out by, etc.

Yes, until it is impossible, as they song says "to dream the impossilbe dream, to fight the unbeatable foe...."

2007-10-03 18:48:40
250.   Sam DC
Besides, it's gonna take HK some time to process whether or not Spawn of Kavula should be named Alex.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2007-10-03 18:50:26
251.   Humma Kavula
250 Spawn of Kavula is female, and will likely, though not definitely, be named Naomi.
2007-10-03 18:53:13
252.   bhsportsguy
250 So was there glee in DC because the Nats played a major role in knocking out the Mets?
2007-10-03 18:53:17
253.   trainwreck
I am a Top Chef fan too.

Never ever talked about it on Screen Jam though.

2007-10-03 19:01:11
254.   Sam DC
251 Cool stuff; lovely name.

I'd note that Alex does work with all models.

252 There was a weird pride in the idea that the team played its last four series against the Mets and Phillies, and played both teams tough (even though Philly won 5 of 7). And over all, there was a lot of beaming about (i) playing .500 ball since May, (ii) beating last year's record despite not having Soriano, Nick Johnson, or Livan Hernandez, and (iii) for the first in three years in DC, not being in last place. Then again, the team lost 89 games, was miles from the playoffs, and didn't have any breakout performances from young players, so most folks tried to temper such feelings. The beat writer summed things up with a "Rarely has mediocrity been deemed so glorious."

2007-10-03 19:01:35
255.   JoeyP
Dodger Positional EQA's: (League Average is .260)

C-- .279

3b, SS, CF are the positions the team needs to get better in.

Pretty sad the Dodgers have Nomar (10 mils), Furcal (13mils), and Pierre (9mils) at those positions.

Furcal really needs to step up his game in 2008. By no fault of his own, he's becoming essentially worse since everyone else aroudn the league is seemingly getting better SS's.

I'd be very leary of extending Furcal past 2008, based on this. If SS is becoming a important offensive position, the Dodgers may need to go out and find one or develop one to keep up with the rest of the league.

2007-10-03 19:07:26
256.   bhsportsguy
The firings or at least non-renewals of contracts has begun

More stuff per Tony Jackson at ITD

Dodgers cut ties with Stan Johnston
The Dodgers have declined to renew the contract of assistant trainer Stan Johnston, who has been with the organization since 1985. Johnston was the club's head trainer from 2000-06 until Stan Conte was brought in last winter, shortly after Conte resigned as San Francisco's head trainer. At that point, Johnston was moved into an assistant's role to make room for Conte, and assitant trainer Matt Wilson was let go.
Johnston spent 10 seasons as a trainer in the Dodgers' minor-league system before joining the big-league training staff in 1996.
``I enjoyed my 22 years with the Los Angeles Dodgers organization and everything I did to advance and further their commitment to being an outstanding organization,'' Johnston said. ``I am saddened that I am not going to a part the future of the organization.''
A Dodgers spokesman said team officials would have no comment on the matter.

2007-10-03 19:09:06
257.   Jon Weisman
256 - I'm surprised that didn't happen back when Conte was hired.
2007-10-03 19:12:04
258.   regfairfield
255 Major League Shortstop OPS+

2003 - 91
2004 - 92
2005 - 92
2006 - 93
2007 - 94

Offense is increasing from the position, but not nearly enough to suddenly tank Furcal's value.

2007-10-03 19:32:24
259.   Gen3Blue
I find myself for the Cubs. At my favorite lunch pub, I talked with a very knowledgable baseball guy who pegged me as a D's fan. I think he was a Colorado fan.
I mentioned that I thought the NL west was going to be a great division because of the good young players coming to LA, Ariz, and Colo and he agreed heartily.
2007-10-03 19:38:28
260.   Jon Weisman
246 -

2007-10-03 19:46:16
261.   trainwreck
Spoiler Alert
2007-10-03 19:48:29
262.   Jon Weisman
261 - Oh, sorry.
2007-10-03 19:49:36
263.   trainwreck
No worries, I quickly stopped reading.
2007-10-03 19:54:12
264.   trainwreck
Going to be a challenge to get in all of Pushing Daisies and paying attention to the baseball game.
2007-10-03 19:54:29
265.   El Lay Dave
249 In light of this season and Kemp trade rumors, "To bear with unbearable sorrow".
2007-10-03 19:59:09
266.   Gen3Blue
This discussion is for the off season, but to try to preview it: The D's have young players that can fill every position at average or above level, very cheaply. They should use this to create a surplus of funds, but to do what with. You can conc-entrate on pitching, or you can get 1 or 2 real mashers. But you have to be careful that your 15 mil vs. .5 mil really gets you something good. As just one example, SS is a position where defense still counts a lot. How good is Hu going to be combining d/offense. Perhaps mighty good! There are other similar situations. What do you do.
2007-10-03 20:11:29
267.   CanuckDodger
266 -- What we should do is go with the young players. I have said it before, but I will say it again, Dodgers' power to spend money is, right now, a huge liability and not any kind of asset. It is keeping the Dodgers from having to think about smart decisions and efficiency.
2007-10-03 20:28:58
268.   fanerman
251 I was gonna suggest Clayton.
2007-10-03 20:49:53
269.   dsfan

Great stat, where can I dig up similar stats on NL CFs the last few years?

2007-10-03 20:52:10
270.   dsfan

What grade would you give Ned in terms of financial efficiency? Perhaps Jon could give us a detailed report, but even beyond the Schmidt and Pierre deals, it seems like Ned is wasteful, has basically eliminated the financial advantage the Dodgers hold over most NL clubs.

2007-10-03 21:04:49
271.   Andrew Shimmin
269- They're on the Baseball-Reference Year by Year splits page. Here's this years (links to previous years are at the top; or, you can just edit the last two or four digits of the url):

2007-10-03 21:05:26
272.   Andrew Shimmin
Eek. "this year's..."
2007-10-03 21:05:53
273.   dsfan


2007-10-03 21:21:32
274.   Kevin Lewis
Is anyone else annoyed/confused by the jeans commercial they keep playing on TBS? Why is the street coming through the floor, and what does that have to do with jeans?
2007-10-03 21:23:50
275.   sporky
From Diamond Leung's blog:

It appears Tony Abreu's surgery went well. A torn abdominal muscle was found, and Abreu will be discharged tomorrow and return to Los Angeles.

2007-10-03 21:31:24
276.   Reddog
I agree with 267. We have an old-school guy as our GM (lucky us) who loves bringing in expensive over-the-hill free-agents that the manager is then forced to play.

If we weren't spending that money, we could let our young players grow into their roles on the team ala Colorado and Arizona.

2007-10-03 21:34:14
277.   Andrew Shimmin
Cubs fans are cheaters.
2007-10-03 21:34:16
278.   bhsportsguy
270 The only financially efficient teams are ones with no money.

The Red Sox won 96 games, Cleveland won 96 games, who was more financially efficient?

I know that there is some belief that exists that there is some magical GM out there that will be able to spend wisely and take advantage of their finances but in truth the only way to be financially efficient is to have a lot of young players at the minimum or perhaps at arbitration buy out contracts and to avoid as many long term contracts as possible.

There are just not enough good players to make spending the money you have to spend to get them as free agents to make that a viable strategy.

But in a game where there has never been more money and less available talent, the price of mediocre keeps going up.

2007-10-03 21:34:56
279.   CanuckDodger
270 -- Colletti has been absolutely terrible when it comes to getting "bang for the buck." Schmidt, Nomar, Pierre, Wolf, Tomko, even Furcal this year. Remove those salaries for the 2007 payroll and we are about even with the three teams in our division that finished ahead of us, yet how much did those six players contribute in 2007?
2007-10-03 21:38:02
280.   Bob Timmermann
CJ Gable of USC is going to have Tony Abreu surgery.
2007-10-03 21:39:54
281.   bhsportsguy
276 Since their last playoff appearance, the D-Backs were 72 games under .500, including a 51-111 season.

Since 2001, the Rockies had not finished above .500 and were 110 games under .500

Both franchises saw huge drops in their paid attendance.

The Dodgers cannot do that. You can't ask 3 million plus fans to go through that kind of development.

2007-10-03 21:55:17
282.   Eric Stephen
280 11 yards a carry with a sports hernia?! I can't wait until he's healthy!
2007-10-03 21:58:36
283.   Jon Weisman
281 - Actually, you can ask. Just like the Rockies did. They used to sell out every game, remember?

All you need is backbone and the ability to ignore Simers and Plaschke and talkradio for a year.

It absolutely is a myth that you can't ask the fans in Los Angeles to endure growing pains. I've seen the people here endure much worse than a 71-91 season.

Not that a 71-91 season is even required. The Dodgers could cut all the players on the team making $10 million or more tomorrow and still win next year.

I don't expect Ned to be perfect. But it is perfectly reasonable to ask that he avoid obvious mistakes.

2007-10-03 22:00:55
284.   sporky
Oh lordy, Adrian Garcia (resident douche) has a blog.
2007-10-03 22:03:50
285.   trainwreck
I would gladly take growing pains to save the Lakers.
2007-10-03 22:18:33
286.   KG16
285 - until recently, the Lakers didn't rebuild, they reloaded.

283 - it would be much easier if the ownership had the wherewithal to just come out and say "this is what we're doing, it's going to take some time, but we're going to be good", instead of bringing in the PVL and building marketing campaigns around them (the Nomar van commercial is the most annoying thing ever).

2007-10-03 22:21:23
287.   Frip
{274} My father is a dork and totally out of it, but he's never worn jeans. I respect him for this, totally. His anti-cool cool. Never seen him in shorts either.
2007-10-03 22:26:11
288.   trainwreck
I don't like jeans either. Khakis for me.
2007-10-03 22:30:46
289.   Frip
Do you feel you life is a trainwreck?
2007-10-03 22:31:11
290.   trainwreck
2007-10-03 22:33:12
291.   Frip
Why do you call yourself trainwreck?
2007-10-03 22:33:58
292.   ToyCannon
He ruins other peoples lives?
2007-10-03 22:34:59
293.   trainwreck
It is related to what Greg Brock calls the silliness.
2007-10-03 22:36:48
294.   Frip
You make it seem like Greg Brock is some sort of Yoda.
2007-10-03 22:38:15
295.   Bob Timmermann
Greg Brock is more of a Boba Fett type.
2007-10-03 22:42:33
296.   Frip
I'm at a friend's house, and there's probably a baseball game on, but cable tv is so complicated now, that I'm not even going to attempt to search for a game.
2007-10-03 22:45:59
297.   Paul Scott
"this is what we're doing, it's going to take some time, but we're going to be good"

They (Frank, anyway) said exactly that when he hired DePo. Scanman has a record of it on his blog. But McCourt couldn't handle the politics of the LA Media and the Fat Man, thus we are now in a situation where we still have a dynasty in the making, but where our GM can still do that dynasty real harm. We'll see. There is so much talent in our farm system that even Colletti is unlikely to kill it completely.

2007-10-03 22:51:57
298.   trainwreck
That is what I think to. Logan White has produced something so good that Ned realizes he should not do anything too dramatic.
2007-10-03 23:25:39
299.   KG16
297 - I remember him saying something like that, but it's not something you can say once and hope it sticks. It's a campaign, message discipline is important. It also helps if you stick to the plan (and I would argue that firing Depo and bringing in PVL that block the youth movement is ignoring the "it's going to take some time" part of the plan).

As a side note, I wish I had the discipline to avoid reading Plaschke. He's eviscerated Lackey for giving up 4 runs, saying the Angels needed him to carry them tonight - and apparently ignoring the fact that you can not win a baseball game without scoring any runs.

2007-10-03 23:26:23
300.   Gold Star for Robot Boy
I'm late to this, but I have to see Johnston's firing as a good thing.
Too many times have we seen a player's performance fall through the floor, only to have him announce after a terrible month, "I'm hurt."
Furcal hurts his ankle in March; in September he gets an MRI. Wolf, Broxton pitch with bad arms.
Enough. Dig through the archives, and you'll see I've made my opinion known.
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2007-10-03 23:33:43
301.   dsfan

Conte is the one who should have been axed. Goodness, the Schmidt deal alone invalidates him.

2007-10-03 23:44:41
302.   Robert Daeley
300 Furcal had an MRI in March -- it's not as if they waited months.

2007-10-04 00:04:21
303.   Greg Brock
295 Boba Fett?
2007-10-04 00:09:14
304.   Greg Brock
I've always considered myself more of a Lando Calrissian type. Except with, you know, less melanin.
2007-10-04 00:27:48
305.   trainwreck
Who doesn't wish they were Billy D?
2007-10-04 00:29:44
306.   El Lay Dave
304 But the same hair style?
2007-10-04 00:35:18
307.   Greg Brock
306 Are you kidding me? That hair is beautimus. And the cape, the pornstache, the baby blue outfit...Fabulous. And he was the original owner of the Millennium Falcon.

Plus, Lando had a white slave named Lobot.

2007-10-04 00:35:49
308.   El Lay Dave
305 Billy Dee Williams turned 70 this year. But who else could be on the cool side of the pillow?
2007-10-04 00:40:21
309.   trainwreck
Billy D still has plenty of game left at the age of 70.
2007-10-04 00:41:50
310.   trainwreck
That is pretty surprising though, that he is 70.
2007-10-04 00:44:59
311.   Greg Brock
In Billy's defense, Colt 45 does, in fact, work every time.
2007-10-04 01:29:55
312.   Michael D

If the rumors at the deadline were true, I don't even think we can hope for that. Colletti was reportedly itching to let Texas bend him over for Teixeira.

2007-10-04 01:41:20
313.   trainwreck
Key part is:

If the rumors at the deadline were true

2007-10-04 01:43:41
314.   trainwreck
He did not do it, so I am going to judge him on that. I have no idea if any rumor was true, but I really did not hear a whole lot about us willing to give up a lot for Teixeira. Just sportswriters throwing our team out there.
2007-10-04 06:46:29
315.   Terry A
The St. Louis Post Dispatch lists ten possible candidates to replace the fired Walt Jocketty as Cardinals GM.

Logan White and Kim Ng are on the list, as are Paul DePodesta and Dan Evans. But at this early stage, the organization has not named any actual candidates.

2007-10-04 06:55:22
316.   JoeyP
281---You cant compare the LA baseball market to that of Colorado or Arizona.

LA's the 2nd biggest market in the entire country. I seriously doubt there'd be a drop in attendance no matter what players the Dodgers put on the field.

Mediocre PVL does not equal attendance.

2007-10-04 07:29:23
317.   D4P
Ugh. Not the Cardinals.
2007-10-04 07:35:02
318.   Terry A
Evans really would be a great fit there.
2007-10-04 08:01:18
319.   Daniel Zappala
I played Boba Fett in a Star Wars-inspired play in elementary school. I always thought Boba Fett was the cool one.
2007-10-04 08:05:33
320.   D4P
Everyone thought Boba was cool. The jetpack, the mask, the cool utilities on his arms...

Then they killed him off in a manner most unbefitting for such a righteous dude.

2007-10-04 08:20:25
321.   LogikReader
How about this... (this will probably be the NPUT)

A year ago today we were anticipating a big NLDS game 1 and instead got 2 jokers sliding into home plate on the same play. You know, if it was some other team I'd have laughed my butt off, but that it was the Dodgers... well I still laughed my butt off.

One year later: we're discussing Boba Fett

2007-10-04 08:29:34
322.   Daniel Zappala
320 Yes, except he was resurrected in the books, which I never read. I've never bothered to figure out the "expanded universe" of Star Wars.
2007-10-04 08:30:19
323.   Daniel Zappala
Boba Fett is way cooler than Jeff Kent.
2007-10-04 08:30:32
324.   D4P
Me neither. As far as I'm concerned, the books don't exist.

For that matter, I'm not sure the "prequels" exist either.

2007-10-04 08:40:41
325.   CajunDodger
...and has a better disposition
2007-10-04 08:41:49
326.   ToyCannon
Star Wars died for me the minute the teddy bears came out and ruined what had been a nice 2 1/2 movie run.
2007-10-04 08:44:07
327.   Paul Scott
315 DePo seems like he would be a good fit. Jocketty was one of the first people to hire sabrematricians as part of his staff. As a kid, the Cardinals were my #2 team, so it would be cool to have a reason to root for them again. Plus, it would be really nice to get DePo out of SD.
2007-10-04 08:44:16
328.   Daniel Zappala
Oh man, how can you not like the Ewoks? What kind of unsentimental, grouchy old man are you?
2007-10-04 08:47:48
329.   Paul Scott
324 The "prequels" were better than that. Yes, it is unfortunate that Lucas took such an active role, to be sure, but they added some complexity (unintentionally I am sure) to the universe that was much needed.
2007-10-04 08:57:41
330.   Paul Scott
328 because they were absurd when they did not have to be. Pointy sticks thrown by things with so little strength are not going to hurt armored stormtroopers. There were too many impossible things done by them in the name of "show some cute things" that it is best to just pretend it never happened. The sad part is that it was completely unnecessary. Lucas showed he knew how to make believable "nature vs. technology" with the Gungans vs. Droids fight in Ep. I. (I am not saying I liked the Gungans, I am just saying that there fight made sense).

The Ewok village stuff was fine. The Ewok attack was ok too, except for much of it's success. This is especially true since success was not necessary for the plot. If they had shown the Ewoks mostly getting killed (but also employing some things successfully - such as the various log traps against the walkers, or using spears as part of traps or held placed against the ground to defeat a charge, etc.) rather than actually defeating the "an entire legion of [the emperor's] best troops" things would have been much better.

2007-10-04 08:58:06
331.   D4P
I didn't mind the complexity. It was the acting, dialogue, plots, Jar-Jar, and animation that I couldn't stand.

And probably some other stuff too.

2007-10-04 09:01:21
332.   Humma Kavula
But if DePo works for the Cardinals, what will become of David Eckstein?

Won't anyone think of his scrapiness?

2007-10-04 09:03:49
333.   Daniel Zappala
330 Kids love the ewoks. The difficulty with Star Wars is that so many people want to take it seriously, but it is not 2001 A Space Odyssey. I think it works much better as a movie for kids.
2007-10-04 09:11:23
334.   Terry A
332 - Eck is a free agent. Scrappiness hits the open market, baby!

Absolutely no offense intended, but 330 is a lot more fun to read if you imagine Dwight Schrute saying it.

2007-10-04 09:18:41
335.   LogikReader
Dwight would have ended with


2007-10-04 09:18:42
336.   Paul Scott
333 Harry Potter are movies and books for kids. In spite of that, that series is well well constructed in really every regard. The characters are not self-contradictory. The universe rules governing magic are consistent. Good does not triumph merely because it was lucky. The villain's flaws are well explored and meaningful. Etc. the result is a series for kids that adults can really enjoy as well.

Just because something is "for kids" doesn't mean the author should take advantage of the fact that kids won't notice a ton of mistakes/non-sense.

2007-10-04 09:25:11
337.   CajunDodger
This is especially true considering that their scouting guys aren't going anywhere and the fact that the GM will have a reduced role in the drafts. That situation is made for him.

That last statement sounds sarcastic, but it isn't.

2007-10-04 09:28:08
338.   fanerman
When I was a kid (mid 90's), I thought the Star Wars extended universe was just as interesting as the movies. When the prequels came out, I knew nothing more about the extended universe, but I thought it was better than the prequels.

And Harry Potter rules.

2007-10-04 09:28:43
339.   fanerman
327 I, too, have nothing against the Cardinals and I'd love to see DePo out of SD.
2007-10-04 09:30:28
340.   old dodger fan
336 I loved the Hobbitt. My middle school aged daughter thought it was OK.
2007-10-04 09:31:36
341.   jasonungar07
e-chuta and pals thinking the proffessor was some sort of a god was a good bit..ROTJ was tuff because it also had some of the best Star Wars stuff. I always thought why not just replace the ewoks with the wookies and the whole thing would have been awesome.
2007-10-04 09:34:27
342.   underdog
I recommend listening to Patton Oswalt's "If I had a time machine, I'd go back to the early 90s and kill George Lucas with a shovel" (before he does the prequels) routine. It says it all.

"You get to see Darth Vader as a little kid!" etc.


Hey, less than a month to college basketball!

2007-10-04 09:35:25
343.   Bob Timmermann
RIP, Gary Franklin.

Car 98 is really out.

2007-10-04 09:36:03
344.   jasonungar07
255 Out of 3b, SS and CF which would be the easy one to improve given the make up of the current roster?

Do you guys think the dodgers use stats such as the ones JoeyP provided? And if yes I wonder to what degree. Afterall this isn't fantasy baseball...

2007-10-04 09:38:12
345.   old dodger fan
Is Glavine just walking away from $13 million? Has he had enough or does he think someone will pay more?
2007-10-04 09:43:22
346.   bhsportsguy
Unless Logan White, Kim Ng, Dan Evans or Paul Depodesta want to take a job where you can't name your own scouting director/player development person, they will not take the Cardinal's job.

The best bet will be the current interim GM who already familiar with the situation.

344 If Furcal is completely healthy, he will have a better year next season.

Unless improved through free agency or trade, 3B will be decided between Nomar Garciaparra and Andy LaRoche.

Right now, the outfield will be Kemp, Pierre and Ethier and unless someone is signed or traded for, that is what we will see on opening day.

2007-10-04 09:44:47
347.   fanerman
344 Signing a new CF would be pretty easy if it didn't mean moving Slappy to LF.

SS ought to be pretty easy if Furcal goes back to his 2005-2006 levels.

3B ought to be pretty easy if our starting third baseman's first name started with the letter "A."

2007-10-04 09:49:35
348.   LogikReader
Speaking of Fantasy Baseball, for next year, I'm going to compile a list of the top OPS+ guys and draft strictly according to that .

Then I will see how well that plays out this year... pitchers I'll use era+, but consider closers for the relief pitchers (they need to rack up saves)

Does DT have a FB league? I am so in on that!

2007-10-04 09:52:16
349.   Bumsrap
Is this Dodgers 2008, the Star Wars version?

Stars Wars is best enjoyed when we relax our analytical minds and merely tune in with our imaginations and visualizations. So far that may be the best way to watch the Dodgers in 2008.

Kemp, Loney, and Martin as the 3, 4, 5 hitters may be better than Nomar, Drew, and Werth, no doubt better than Nomar, Kent, and Gonzo, but will it be good enough to keep throughout 2008?

2007-10-04 09:56:41
350.   old dodger fan
349 You think Kent and Nomar will go all the way down to 6 and 7 or do you put Ethier 6 and move them down to 7 and 8? I wonder what Jeff will say about that?
Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2007-10-04 09:59:14
351.   regfairfield
348 I wouldn't recommend that. ERA has very little predictive value, OPS isn't all that important in fantasy (a guy like Craig Monroe is far more valuable than Travis Buck), plus it pretty much ensures you'll be buying high on everyone.

Plus, OPS+ is park adjusted, which isn't important in fantasy. You should be loading up on guys who abuse parks like Philly and Colorado.

2007-10-04 10:03:30
352.   ToyCannon
Given how few GM jobs open up I expect that if Logan or Kim were offered any GM job they would take it, no matter the constraints.
I'd like to see Depo, Evans, Kim, or Logan get the shot in St. Louis.
2007-10-04 10:07:46
353.   bhsportsguy
Is 4 seasons enough to judge that if Scott Elbert does not make a full recovery to be a top ten prospect for the Dodgers that the 2004 draft will be the worst in the Logan White era?
2007-10-04 10:08:50
354.   ToyCannon
I think xeifrank has run one for the last two years.

Anyone know who won?

2007-10-04 10:10:58
355.   underdog
What's with all the people in our DT FF league who don't pay attention to bye weeks?
2007-10-04 10:18:37
356.   KG16
341 - I read or saw an interview with Lucas where he said it was suppose to be the Wookies in ROTJ but he couldn't use them because he liked them too much so he included Chewbaca in the first two movies.

I tried to get into the expanded universe, but just couldn't.

My biggest problem with the prequels (besides Jar Jar) was that it created inherent inconsistencies within the story. Particularly things Obi Wan said in Ep IV about his relationship with Anikan, etc.

2007-10-04 10:21:01
357.   ToyCannon
No, 2005 still needs to play out. Not signing your number one pick tends to hurt a draft. Bell and Dejesus need to become something and I don't see their odds any higher then Dewitt and Elbert.

Remember he drafted Price and Slavery in 2004 who both were number one picks this year, he just didn't sign them.

Elbert, Dewitt, Orenduff, Wade, and Akin could still make the majors. Nothing changed with Elbert except he lost a year of dvlp. He should still only trail Kershaw and McDonald as far as pitching prospects go, and I'd rather have a healthy Elbert's upside then McDonalds.

Ruggiano became the 1st from that draft to make the majors.

2007-10-04 10:22:03
358.   LogikReader

Hmm interesting. What stat categories would be good to look at, other than the usual HR, RBI, avg, and steals stats?

2007-10-04 10:23:13
359.   LogikReader
Incidentally, here are the OPS leaders for 2007:

OPS Leaders (Min 120 at bats):

1. Alex Rodriguez
2. David Ortiz
3. Barry Bonds
4. Carlos Pena
5. Chipper Jones
6. Magglio Ordonez
7. Prince Fielder
8. Matt Holiday
9. Albert Pujols
10. Ryan Howard

2007-10-04 10:23:14
360.   bhsportsguy
356 My problem with them is that they are really separate entities, you cannot watch the first three and be surprised by anything in the last 3 and while there were some entertaining portions in the first three, all it is one long story getting to the second trilogy.
2007-10-04 10:23:40
361.   caseybarker
Yeah, hopefully, no one has Culpepper as their starter.

For goodness' sake, though, pick up one of the Raider's running backs.

2007-10-04 10:30:34
362.   bhsportsguy
357 But he had 2 first round picks, 1 supplemental, a second, third, and fourth round pick and he signed them all.

At least there is one player from the 2005 draft on the 40 man roster.

Now, to put some perspective on this, you cannot expect to equal the success of the 2002 and 2003 drafts every year, those were rare drafts that produced multiple players.

But given the greater number of picks in 2004 compared to 2005, I do think that 2004 is more disappointing.

2007-10-04 10:32:44
363.   wireroom
what is the status of Miguel Cabrera in Florida? Have the Marlins shown any interest in trading him/what is his contract status? What do you think the Dodgers woudl have to give up to egt him at third base?
2007-10-04 10:34:38
364.   ToyCannon
Is Carlos Pena the greatest positional NRI ever?
2007-10-04 10:38:47
365.   LogikReader
The Dodgers would have to give up the All You Can Eat Pavilion to get Cabrera
2007-10-04 10:39:28
366.   bhsportsguy
352 DeJesus and Hu are both playing in the Arizona Fall League. I would guess DeJesus sees more time on the field, don't you think.
2007-10-04 10:43:40
367.   ToyCannon
Are you sure about Hu? He was there last year, and they don't usually repeat the AFL.
2007-10-04 10:44:28
368.   bhsportsguy
367 I thought so too but Kevin Goldstein mentioned him in his preview today.
2007-10-04 10:56:13
369.   wireroom
365-I guess the Marlins aren't in one of their selling modes....he is a wonderful palyer though and one of the few guys out there I would even consider trading for
2007-10-04 10:57:28
370.   regfairfield
358 I think offense is a lot harder to exploit in fantasy than pitching. Generally, players that tend to lead the league in the fantasy stats are able to do so consistently. The only thing I say about offense is that you should look for young guys that aren't well known. In everyone of my nonserious leagues, I was able to take Short Chris Young and Alex Gordon in the last two rounds. Also, stay away from aging slow power hitters if you can avoid it. Those guys seem to be more likely to completely implode and ruin a high pick.

Pitching is a lot easier to exploit, I tend to target young guys with good strikeout rates that may not have been successful the previous year (I was able to get Rich Hill, Ian Snell and Adam Loewen very late in my good league) along with guys who had high BABIPs and strand rates. This way, you can assemble a strong pitching staff entirely with late round picks and maybe one anchor guy.

2007-10-04 10:59:33
371.   regfairfield
370 That should have been "young guys that aren't highly ranked in fantasy".
2007-10-04 10:59:34
372.   regfairfield
370 That should have been "young guys that aren't highly ranked in fantasy".
2007-10-04 11:06:25
373.   LogikReader
Thanks for the advice, reg. For offense, the Yahoo rankings tend to be a good barometer. It worked for my fantasy football team.

-- and very good note about the aging sluggers; I got burned badly by choosing Edmonds one year.

2007-10-04 11:14:08
374.   bhsportsguy
373 John Benson (I think that is the right name) once wrote that the age where a player is expected to have his breakout year was 28 (or was it 27).

I know I used that stat one year to pick up Matt Williams.

Generally it helps if you can pick the guy who has an MVP season too.

2007-10-04 11:39:12
375.   Xeifrank
348/354. Yes, I ran the DT fantasy baseball leagues (and football). I did awful in the Roto league, and lost in the semi finals of the head to head league. I am not sure who the DT poster is that won the roto league. Drafting by OPS+ and ERA+ would be a mistake, unless those were your actual categories. vr, Xei
2007-10-04 11:40:47
376.   sporky
The only Star Wars movie I've seen was the one with Jar Jar Binks. My view of the
Star Wars series/franchise/universe might be a tad skewed because of that.


2007-10-04 12:03:28
377.   underdog
376 Yikes. You're kidding, right? I know this means you're younger than me ;-) I remember standing in line as an excited, what, 11-12 year old? for Revenge of the Jedi. Ewoks or no, I was pretty damned excited. I was excited as an adult for the first prequel - until about ten minutes into it when I realized how horrible it was going to be. Six hours of backstory = the prequels.

"I don't care where the stuff I love comes from, I just like the stuff I love!" - Patton O

2007-10-04 12:16:29
378.   bhsportsguy
377 If kids think the next Indiana Jones is representative of the original, they will be disappointed.
2007-10-04 12:36:46
379.   sporky
377 - My mother was very uncomfortably pregnant with me when Revenge of the Jedi was released.

I guess I should be calling Martin, Kemp, Loney 'kids' when I'm basically their age.

2007-10-04 12:37:18
380.   sporky
379 - shouldn't be.
2007-10-04 13:14:11
381.   trainwreck
I got second in the H2H league in a close battle.
2007-10-04 13:20:34
382.   El Lay Dave
376 Ignore the other two prequels and watch the original trilogy on DVD - they're fun, although the Ewoks ARE ridiculous. Just watch them much in the same way you would enjoy a classic video game, realizing the technologcial limitations at the time and overlooking them. And pretend that you don't already know who Luke's father is.
2007-10-04 13:21:34
383.   dsfan
Judging by his chat comments, Law thinks Colletti is in over his skis. Said Ned would trade Kemp for Wheeler if Kemp gets off to a slow start. He's nailed Ned in a few other chats, too. And Sabean.
2007-10-04 13:37:49
384.   JoeyP
Kaz Matsui never did things like that with the Mets.
2007-10-04 14:17:28
385.   KG16
I think I was maybe 5 when Jedi came out, remember seeing it in the theater. Also did the re-releases in theater - took off from work/class to see them. Did the midnight shows for Ep I and II, I think. I'm also very worried about Indiana Jones, I have this feeling it's going to be like the South Park Episode where they tried to do a special edition...

383 - for some reason, that doesn't surprise me. I just hope that if Colletti makes some crazy trade, it's with the Angels, so I can continue to watch the kids (and even do it in person). I half expect a trade of Kemp/Kershaw for Colon/Figgins this off season.

2007-10-04 14:18:45
386.   Gen3Blue
How hot are these Rockies. I think I am morphing from liking them to worrying about them for next year.
2007-10-04 14:24:18
387.   KG16
386 - Next year is going to be a very scary year in the NL West. My concern is that the unbalanced schedule means everyone ends up around 85 wins (+/-4) and we get to hear a bunch of smack about how the division isn't that good, even though it'll beat up on the Central and East.
2007-10-04 14:24:55
388.   Xeifrank
has Bob put the "Red" cycle alert out on Kaz Matsui yet? Single is all he needs.
vr, Xei
2007-10-04 14:26:32
389.   ToyCannon
Stoneman doesn't trade his kids, nor does he trade for kids. After the disaster GA and Salmon contracts he lets his FA walk, he signs other teams FA, and he lets his kids play. He doesn't seem to partake in the trading aspect of baseball.
2007-10-04 14:29:02
390.   bhsportsguy
388 Check out the game thread.

389 What do the Angels do with Brandon Wood?

2007-10-04 14:30:14
391.   KG16
389 - If he is offered Kemp and Kershaw for Fatolo (as an Angels fan friend of mine calls him) and Figgins, I think he'd make the trade. It's just the kind of trade I could see Ned making, everyday player who can play "everywhere" with great speed and the ability to get on base "an awful lot", and a pitcher who was really good a few years ago who has since had injury problems. Right up his alley. And I'm sure Stoneman would love to get rid of Colon's contract.
2007-10-04 14:32:08
392.   LogikReader
Wow! Wow wow wow wow wow! WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can you believe these Rockies? I think trainwreck might get his wish.

2007-10-04 14:32:48
393.   LogikReader

I'll switch over and repost... thanks bh

2007-10-04 14:34:17
394.   Xeifrank
390. I think by International Treaty, Bob is required to post it here first. :)
vr, Xei
2007-10-04 14:38:09
395.   LogikReader

I wouldn't worry so much about "The Rockies Next Year". This season has "Marlins 2003" or "White Sox 2005" written all over it.

[not that the Rox can't keep their players, but from the standpoint that a lot of things are coming together at once]

2007-10-04 14:47:50
396.   Gen3Blue
387 a good possibility, but there also has to be some truth in 395. I remember the D's stretch last year when nothing could go wrong, but this Rock's one is ridiculous.

391 Say it ain't so. Please!

2007-10-04 14:49:54
397.   bhsportsguy
391 Colon is a free agent. Which could mean something else but not a trade.
2007-10-04 14:50:32
398.   screwballin
391 I know Ned has put a priority on having speed at the top of the lineup, but I doubt that translates to him wanting to have slap hitters at every position. Ned likes traditional roster construction, and that means small-ball hitters in the 1 and 2 spots. But for him to go much beyond that would be a fairly radical departure from his traditional approach, I think.

Acquiring Figgins would be admitting that Pierre was a mistake, in other words.

2007-10-04 14:52:16
399.   El Lay Dave
391 Stoneman would have to be an idiot to turn that deal down and even Colletti is not addlepated enough to make that offer.
2007-10-04 14:55:05
400.   bhsportsguy
You did note that Colon is a free agent and actually, the Angels are kind of full with outfielders with Vlad, Garrett, Matthews, Jr and Rivera all signed up or under control for the next few years.

Also, I think they have a high opinion of Figgins and he won't be exactly cheap in salary.

Show/Hide Comments 401-450
2007-10-04 14:59:51
401.   KG16
397 - that's good to know, didn't realize his contract was up.

398 - that probably makes sense, but I could see him rationalizing it by saying that Figgins could play second and add some speed to the bottom of the line up. But I hope you're right.

399 - I didn't say it was going to happen, or even that it was likely, just something that if it were to happen, I'd shrug my shoulders and say, "well, I'm not surprised"

2007-10-04 15:05:29
402.   Bumsrap
350 - Actually I would like to see Kent and Nomar in the 10 and 11 spots in the hitting order or better yet, 3 and 4 on some other teams hitting order.
2007-10-04 15:11:53
403.   KG16
402 - from your fingers to Colletti's eyes
2007-10-04 15:14:52
404.   sporky has a 'needs and luxuries' writeup on the Dodgers.
2007-10-04 15:20:12
405.   Bluebleeder87
the only BIG move I think Ned makes is for a POSITIONAL PLAYER/power hitter I'm sure he'll get a marginal pitcher also though.
2007-10-04 15:22:51
406.   screwballin
Being a key part of our offense didn't earn Kent much slack, did it? It scares me to think what we'd be without him next year, even assuming a defensive improvement. I don't think we can expect anyone in the current mix to even approach his production.
2007-10-04 15:23:37
407.   LogikReader
I can't remember any time in my 25 years of living when the Angels and Dodgers conducted a trade between them.

NOBODY could be that short-sighted anyway (I had more colorful words).

2007-10-04 15:24:54
408.   still bevens
386 I had initially thought that Colorado would go nowhere with the team they have now and would result in Holliday, Atkins etc all walking once their contracts are up. Going deep into the post season/winning the WS might change that. Might not depending on how far away they are from free agency or who their agents are.
2007-10-04 15:27:29
409.   KG16
406 - Jeff Kent 2007: .302/.275/.500, 20 HR, 79 RBI, 78 R, 149 Hits.

I'm pretty sure that Loney and Kemp would both out perform those numbers next year. As will Martin (who basically did this year). Heck, even Ethier would be close with another year of experience.

2007-10-04 15:31:32
410.   regfairfield
409 I think it's far from a sure thing that Loney or Kemp will out produce those numbers, and there's absolutely nothing that indicates Ethier has that much discipline or power.
2007-10-04 15:33:25
411.   Jon Weisman
Rockies to share postseason payout with Coolbaugh's widow:

2007-10-04 15:37:55
412.   Gen3Blue
410 But just for balance you must consider Kent is on the way down. I don't have a neat 4 year statistics pile, but I doubt he even achieves like this year.
2007-10-04 15:38:53
413.   thinkblue0
key to the mlbtraderumors post is the advice of not having inferior vets.

I'm not against going after a Bay or Dunn, but other than that we should probably stand pat. I wouldn't be completely against getting a Tejada or Glaus either but it depends on what we're giving up....

2007-10-04 15:41:50
414.   Gen3Blue
Shock then Yanks! Shock them Yanks!
2007-10-04 15:43:15
415.   KG16
410 - I'm looking at their numbers for this year, combined with their age and the expectation that they should improve with more experience.

Loney (96 games): .331/.381/.538, 15 HR, 67 RBI, 41 R, 114 H
Martin (151 games): .293/.374/.469, 19 HR, 87 RBI, 87 R, 158 H
Kemp (98 games): .342/.373.521, 10 HR, 64 RBI, 47 R, 100 H
Ethier (153 games, a few as a defensive sub): .284/.350/.452, 13 HR, 64 RBI, 50 R, 127 H

Those numbers aren't much different, in my eye to what Kent did last year. Kent was basically average on the team last year.

2007-10-04 15:45:58
416.   ToyCannon
It is a simple thing, but it speaks volumes to me. That is a big chunk of change. Totally changed me from a fence sitter to rooting for the Rockies.
2007-10-04 15:47:58
417.   ToyCannon
I don't get your point. None of those 4 are a replacement for Kent. Find a 2nd baseman who can produce offensively like Kent.

Now if your saying we can find a 2nd baseman whose defense and offense would offset the bad defense and still solid offense of Kent that is something else.

2007-10-04 15:51:32
418.   Jim Hitchcock
Rockies. Team of Destiny.
2007-10-04 15:51:37
419.   Bill Crain
404 413
That TradeRumors post only states the obvious, but you got to give them credit for at least having a grasp of the obvious.

The comments, though, are pretty funny.

2007-10-04 15:56:55
420.   screwballin
417 Yeah, I really meant that we don't have a replacement for Kent who will outproduce him. Sure, he's on the decline, but that's coming down from a possible HOF career.

I think Kemp will outhit him next year. I'm betting he puts at least 25 balls over the Green Monster next season. ;)

2007-10-04 15:57:58
421.   still bevens
So did MLB basically shut down mlb audio and gameday for the playoffs?
2007-10-04 16:00:50
422.   bhsportsguy
416 Assuming the Rockies make the next round, here is how it broke down last year.

World Series Champions
St. Louis Cardinals (Share of Players' Pool: $20,016,735.81; value of each full share: $362,173.07) - The Cardinals awarded 48 full shares, 7.133 partial shares and 16 cash awards.

American League Champions
Detroit Tigers (Share of Players' Pool: $13,344,490.54; value of each full share: $291,667.68) - The Tigers awarded 39 full shares, 6.67 partial shares and nine cash awards.

League Championship Series Runners-Up
New York Mets (Share of Players' Pool: $6,672,245.27; value of each full share: $124,429.60) - The Mets awarded 40 full shares, 13.333 partial shares and six cash awards.

Oakland Athletics (Share of Players' Pool: $6,672,245.27; value of each full share: $140,624.90) - The A's awarded 41 full shares, 5.80 partial shares and 14 cash awards.

2007-10-04 16:01:32
423.   MJW101
Any talk about obtaining Jason Bay should cease. According to some recent reports he has lost the ability to pull the inside pitch which has cost him his power. Without power Bay is not an attractive package.
2007-10-04 16:05:27
424.   wireroom
The only way the Dodgers are going to contend within the west division is by playing and staying young. The Rocks, Padres and D-bags all have very young teams and they got there by playing their young guys for a few years and letting them develop. They are good, young and VERY importantly durable. Another year of Jeff Kent needing days off all the time and not being able to play in double headers will kill the Dodgers. (As it did in the Rockies series)Let Abreu have it out and let Kent and his bad attitude go.
The dodgers have some catching up to do because these young teams in our division are going to only be better next year.
2007-10-04 16:10:22
425.   wireroom
The Dodgers need pitching bottom line. You have a healthy Jason Schmidt and a healthy Wolf, they have a chance at winning the division this past year. Hopefully the Dodgers come up with some kind of diamond in the rough pitcher whether that be signing or minor leaguer.
2007-10-04 16:10:42
426.   Dodgers49
Brady is available again:

>> Also Thursday, the Padres claimed infielder Luis Rodriguez off waivers from the Minnesota Twins and requested waivers on outfielder Brady Clark for the purpose of giving him his unconditional release. <<

2007-10-04 16:16:32
427.   Gen3Blue
Kenny Lofton shocks those Yanks. 3-1 going intothe second.
2007-10-04 16:21:06
428.   ToyCannon
Wasn't just Jason Bay who lost power this season.
2007-10-04 16:21:23
429.   wireroom
Let's hear it for the Kenny Lofton rule. It just seems like every team he plays for makes the playoffs! The Dodgers should have hung on to him instead of the poor mans Kenny Lofton of Juan Pierre.
They would have made the playoffs. That guy just knows how to draw a walk or get a base hit when you really need it. One of my all time favorite players ever. I was sad when the Dodgers let him go.
2007-10-04 16:21:39
430.   LogikReader
What is it about Kenny Lofton always landing on a playoff team?
2007-10-04 16:22:23
431.   MJW101
If McDonald was too arm weary to be called up in September why is he pitching in a fall league?
2007-10-04 16:23:02
432.   kngoworld
Loney and Kemp have very similar numbers this year. Although Kemp played in more games then Loney, he had over 50 at bats less. This is because Kemp was used in more pinch hitting defensive substitutions. Once Kemp plays a full season of games and at bats his line will look even more impressive.
2007-10-04 16:24:18
433.   thinkblue0

We need pitching? We've got Penny, Lowe, Bills, Schmidt will be back...we've got Loaiza and probably Wolf again at a discount.

There's nowhere to put another starter.

2007-10-04 16:24:37
434.   El Lay Dave
425 There are several "diamond in the rough pitchers" in the farm system. Some are too rough still.

You don't like Loaiza for '08? ;)

2007-10-04 16:25:46
435.   underdog
Ugh, an MLB/Gameday news headline just made me queasy: "Lugo smiling, enjoying postseason ride."
2007-10-04 16:26:28
436.   wireroom
It is the Kenny Lofton rule man. The guy is a winner and has big time at bats. when the Indians got him this year I thought well they are in the playoffs now. Karros has a quote where he says when teh Cubs got Lofton in 03, he knew they were going to go far.
2007-10-04 16:27:25
437.   kngoworld
Loney and Kemp should be living at around 175 - 190 hits per season for many years to come. That will be fun to watch.
2007-10-04 16:27:46
438.   wireroom
I like Loaiza. He will be decent.
2007-10-04 16:30:31
439.   underdog
Old (minor league) friend Franklin Gutierrez is starting in Game 1 for the Indians.
2007-10-04 16:31:42
440.   Bob Timmermann
I have just discovered that the calendar the Dodgers and Panda Express gave away last fall for 2006-2007 has December all screwed up.

All the dates are shifted ahead one day.

November 30 is on a Friday and December 1 is on a Sunday.

2007-10-04 16:35:49
441.   kngoworld
440 No one told you yet?

When the Baseball season ends, so does time. All months prior and post to the season dont really matter anyways.

2007-10-04 16:46:46
442.   trainwreck
Good job, A-rod. Keep tanking.
2007-10-04 16:46:54
443.   Bob Timmermann
I almost planned my staff's Christmas holiday time off based on that calendar!
2007-10-04 16:48:22
444.   Bluebleeder87

wow, it just shows what a sick stretch Loney had. I really hope he keeps it up (dinger wise) I really feel he's arrived as an elite Dodger hitter.

2007-10-04 16:50:41
445.   Bluebleeder87

That's pretty funny/shocking when you think about it.

ps the Indians are having there way against the Yanks today, so far.

2007-10-04 16:56:49
446.   El Lay Dave
Ned Colletti watching television today, strokes mustache. "Hmmm, look at this lineup", as he ponders the batting orders for the Yankees-Indians contest, "Damon, LF. Lofton, LF. And those are top-shelf winning teams! Gee, I guess I can move my boy Juan into LF, get Hunter for CF and claim I've strengthed the defense AND brought in a big stick. After all, Hunter hits a lot of homers and drives in a lot of runs. He hit .287 this year. Plaschke will love this."

Ned spins in his chair. "Hey, get me Larry Reynolds, y'know, Torii Hunter's agent, on the phone."

He settles back into chair, unctuous grin spreading across his face. "Yes," he thinks, "this should only take, what, $100 million of Frank's money over six years? Now, what can I get for that troublemaker Kemp?"

2007-10-04 17:00:57
447.   El Lay Dave
440 Apparently some papal proclamation is planned. Have we missed 86,400 leap-seconds?
2007-10-04 17:09:35
448.   Gen3Blue
On pitching, you halve to look at the particularly look at the type of injury, and the age it occurred at. I'm afraid it is unlikely Schmidt will be back this year, and 50/50 Wolf will be back. Spring training should be able to discern this, but it is not ideal. As I recall Tomko and a few others in the last few years managed to look OK in ST. Who was that awful long time starter. Darn it I can't remember!( wait, was it something scandinavian like Erickson?)
2007-10-04 17:12:44
449.   KG16
417 - my point was only that we have plenty of guys who will out produce Kent next year, because there were plenty of guys who came close this year. I don't care too much where the offense comes from. The offense will be better next year and with the expected decline in offense at second, defense will be a liability.

446 - that's not funny, not funny at all.

2007-10-04 17:16:42
450.   underdog
446 Sounds depressingly believable. I hope it's just fiction!
Show/Hide Comments 451-500
2007-10-04 17:34:46
451.   Frip
This announcer gets a big kick out of saying "And here come the Yankees!"

See buddy, it losses it's punch after the 3rd time.

2007-10-04 17:50:53
452.   Humma Kavula
I'm not a prude. I've had comments deleted -- and rightly so -- for Rule 1 violations. The comments at the OutWatch encouraged me to do unspeakable things with my own mother, and I took that in stride.

So consider that when I say: Bronx Banter scares me.

2007-10-04 17:53:20
453.   D4P
I just navigated here to say that Bronx Banter is a scary place. They use words that rhyme with "sum", but that start with "c".
2007-10-04 17:54:27
454.   D4P
Kenny Lofton was born in the 60s. And he's better than Pierre.
2007-10-04 18:00:05
455.   Humma Kavula



2007-10-04 18:02:03
456.   Humma Kavula
I would go over to Bronx Banter and ask, "At what point does the mercy rule kick in?," but I am afraid that they will come to my house that will not end well for Spawn of Kavula.
2007-10-04 18:02:30
457.   Daniel Zappala
Bronx Banter is an embarrassment to the Toaster. The bloggers are awesome, but the commenters are about the worst you could imagine.

That said, what an awesome game in Cleveland.

2007-10-04 18:11:37
458.   sporky
Bronx Banter is that bad? (moseys over)
2007-10-04 18:16:41
459.   Bob Timmermann
I don't think Bronx Banter is any different from Dodger Thoughts if Rule 1 didn't exist.

I think it's a slightly younger crowd.

2007-10-04 18:24:47
460.   Frip
457 The Bronx bloggers are OK, but I'm glad Jon doesn't write things like "As per usual..."
2007-10-04 18:25:04
461.   D4P
I think it's a slightly younger crowd

And larger. Or at least verboser.

2007-10-04 18:26:37
462.   Daniel Zappala
I think even if Rule 1 didn't exist, Dodger Thoughts would be 1/10th of what Bronx Banter is. Where Dodger Thoughts is upset, Bronx Banter is vitriolic.
2007-10-04 18:26:43
463.   Bob Timmermann
Marion Jones is going to plead guilty in Federal Court to lying to Federal agents about using steroids. She'll likely be losing her five gold medals.
2007-10-04 18:27:33
464.   trainwreck
Yeah, they are talking about taking the SATs.

Suddenly I feel old.

2007-10-04 18:27:34
465.   Daniel Zappala
You need to read through the part where things went south. They've become more resigned at this point.
2007-10-04 18:27:50
466.   Frip
Interesting you mention it, I'm going to be a Verboser for Halloween.
2007-10-04 18:28:05
467.   D4P
She said she was given "the Clear" by her trainer, who told her it was flaxseed oil.

It's like deja vu all over again.

2007-10-04 18:28:39
468.   Daniel Zappala
463 Bummer.
2007-10-04 18:29:02
469.   sporky
(moseys back)
2007-10-04 18:30:56
470.   Frip
Marion was one of those earnest-as-can-be liars on 60 Minutes a few years ago. I'd love to see that same 60 Minutes now so I can study how to lie with conviction.
2007-10-04 18:33:21
471.   Bob Timmermann
Marion's lies are going to lead to a conviction.

I wonder if Jon covered her high school exploits?

2007-10-04 18:36:37
472.   Humma Kavula
463 What will Plaschke write now? Last I saw, he was apologizing to Jones, but maybe I missed something. I stopped reading him for a while. That was a happy time...
2007-10-04 18:40:11
473.   Daniel Zappala
I think a lot of people are going to realize how good this Cleveland team is. I know I underestimated them.
2007-10-04 18:40:43
474.   Humma Kavula
I picked Cleveland to win it all.
2007-10-04 18:41:44
475.   Frip
Every time in baseball games that they show unusual camera angles for the pitch, it's always interesting and refreshing. I just can't believe they stick with the same behind-the-pitcher angle EVERY TIME FOREVER.
2007-10-04 18:47:26
476.   KG16
475 - it's a matter of economics, extra camera angles mean extra cameras and extra camera men. Plus it tends to be the best location to see as much of the pitch/swing action as possible. In the old days, they use to have one behind home plate up on like the second level, but you can't tell if a pitch is high or low or see the movement on it real well. I think earlier this year (or maybe last year) the Dodgers did a game where they went through all the changes that were made in the early years of a game, showing it in b/w with no graphics, adding cameras as the game went along, eventually switching to color and including graphics.
2007-10-04 18:51:50
477.   Frip
476 Economics? I think there is already a camera somewhere behind home plate for every telecast. I'm not saying they have to change for good, but mix it up a bit. Just a wee bit.
2007-10-04 18:59:19
478.   El Lay Dave
474 As did I. I made no mention of that fact on Bronx Banter.
2007-10-04 19:02:35
479.   El Lay Dave
457 about the worst you could imagine

Oh no, no, no. I've SEEN much worse.

456 Good one, you should have gone for it. They took my needling about even Charlie Manuel would have pulled Wang by now in stride. If you won't, can I steal it or a variant?

2007-10-04 19:06:05
480.   Humma Kavula
479 All yours.
2007-10-04 19:06:27
481.   trainwreck
Yeah, I have to apologize to Bluebleeder, because I did not want to answer his question on who I thought was going to win the series.
2007-10-04 19:07:36
482.   Gen3Blue
Most of these play-off games seem to be going my way. Since I am having trouble with being adapted to the D's September schedule---being up till at least one pm., I may stay up and root for the cubbies to stomp the snakes.

Lord, it seems the Indians are pummeling the Yanks!

2007-10-04 19:07:49
483.   El Lay Dave
480 Thanks. Done, although their post rate has slowed by now.

And another HR for the Tribe.

2007-10-04 19:08:24
484.   El Lay Dave
481 Ditto.
2007-10-04 19:10:54
485.   Daniel Zappala
474 You have extra magic that comes from spawning a Kavula. It's an unfair advantage. Either that or you actually paid attention to Cleveland this year, like I didn't.
2007-10-04 19:15:32
486.   El Lay Dave
Oddly, Wedge has brought in Rafael Betancourt to pitch the ninth with a 9-run lead. Why??? Lewis pitched the 8th on only 8 pitches - just leave him in.
2007-10-04 19:20:40
487.   Gen3Blue
Though I'm already watching the Cubs on TNT, I can't resist going back for the kill.
2007-10-04 19:22:07
488.   Gen3Blue
The Yankees lose--theaaaeeeh Yankees lose.
2007-10-04 19:22:44
489.   sporky
488 - Shh. They might hear you.
2007-10-04 19:31:00
490.   trainwreck
Travis Henry just got suspended for the year for a third failed drug test!

Teehee, teeehee.

2007-10-04 19:37:57
491.   Bob Timmermann
The Padres released Brady Clark today.
2007-10-04 19:38:25
492.   Jon Weisman
471 - Mostly Michael Rosenthal did. I only edited stuff about her at T.O.
2007-10-04 19:38:44
493.   Jon Weisman
492 - Or was it Rio Mesa?
2007-10-04 19:40:18
494.   Bob Timmermann
Marion Jones went to Rio Mesa in beautiful Oxnard.
2007-10-04 19:41:02
495.   Bob Timmermann
And then she transfered to Thousand Oaks.
2007-10-04 20:35:48
496.   still bevens
I believe Dmitri Young is also a product of Rio Mesa High.
2007-10-04 20:40:32
497.   Gen3Blue
Whoa-- It seemed like one of our players got called out for doing something far less ridiculous with the mystery lines around first base this year. Oh well.
2007-10-04 21:01:11
498.   underdog
Stupid No Fun League.

Oh well, guess we're going to the Super Bowl with Selvin and Bell, unless Travis' appeal comes through. They should just re-test him, but give him some notice so he can refrain from accidentally eating any pot brownies that week.

Man, I missed 30 Rock, what a great show.

2007-10-04 21:01:29
499.   Kevin Lewis
Didn't Lofton go 0 for 12 for us last year in the playoffs (or something close to that)? I just remember him not showing up at all. Now he is Mr. Clutch for the night.
2007-10-04 21:13:34
500.   still bevens
Didn't Lofton have a nagging injury going into the playoffs last season?
Show/Hide Comments 501-550
2007-10-04 21:14:00
501.   yankz
489 We did. And it's ok.

456 I can't think of a single Bronx Banter poster who would come here and say that during a playoff game where LAD was getting shelled.

Yes, we fight. But we all love each other.

2007-10-04 21:28:23
502.   Xeifrank
496. His brother Delmon went to High School just down the road as a Scorpion.
vr, Xei
2007-10-04 21:37:05
503.   Greg Brock
I truly feel terrible for Cubs fans. But at least the NL West is well represented.
2007-10-04 21:44:53
504.   BklynBmr
501 Just wanna make sure you're OK over here. Gotcha back, my brother, not that you need it...
2007-10-04 21:46:32
505.   Reddog
Looks like the Dodgers are in the toughest NL division by far.

And why couldn't Ned have just kept Lofton instead of paying $44 million for Pierre?
Is Pierre in any way better?

2007-10-04 21:46:48
506.   underdog
501 I love Bronx Banter myself. I think everyone's different in their tastes, and tolerances (foul language doesn't bother me, but I'm still glad for the DT rules), and senses of humor, and so on. I root for the Yanks when the Dodgers aren't in it 'cause my Dad's a Yankees fan and, well, I love my dad and hate to see him bummed out. And everyone else seems to hate them so much it actually makes me kind of support them. So I take it all with a grain of salt, and think of Baseball Toaster as this huge brotherhood (and sisterhood) of disparate baseball fans who come together in their love of the game. (And in many cases, in having a pretty sharp wit.) But I respect people who don't feel comfortable in that space. (And I think Yankees fans are probably used to being enemy #1, it's just because they have such a history of success and a huge payroll, but they win. Alas, certainly more in recent years than our fair team has.)

Anyway, whatever works for ya!

Now back to The Office!

2007-10-04 21:55:05
507.   yankz
506 Thank you. I was never alive to see the Dodgers in NY, so I don't hate them like a lot of New Yorkers do. I especially respect and admire Jeff Kent.* We all admit to being passionate, crazy, and yeah, we overreact all the time.

Most of us really enjoy being public enemy #1. It's kind of fun.

*I don't really.

2007-10-04 21:55:09
508.   fanerman
505 No. Kenny walks more and hits for more power.
2007-10-04 21:57:07
509.   LAT
D. Ward. Are you freakin' kidding me. The Cubs are in the post season with D. Ward and the Dodgers and Mets are sitting at home. Oh, the pain of it all.
2007-10-04 21:58:46
510.   LAT
Poor Frank Thomas. Has he ever met a platatude he didn't like?
2007-10-04 22:00:40
511.   LAT
Could TBS possibily suck up to Cal anymore than they are?
2007-10-04 22:02:55
512.   bhsportsguy
So I'm listening to Buck Martinez who is doing the commentary on ESPN Radio for the Chicago v. Arizona series and he is talking about all the young players in baseball.

And he's talking about how the young players on Arizona soaked up the crucial knowledge of how to win from those proven winners (Tony Clark, Orlando Hudson and Eric Byrnes) and how everyone was pulling for each other, etc.

Then he counters that with the Los Angeles Dodgers and how according to "veteran" players, their young players just thought they could toss their gloves on the field and put up numbers and that would be enough.

I am not posting this to rehash what happened a few weeks ago but what I am saying is that our youngsters will carry this with them, fairly or unfairly by many in the media, even those who do not write for LA Times.

2007-10-04 22:04:29
513.   yankz
511 Yes, but only if they started airing those "This is our country" commercials back to back.
2007-10-04 22:04:53
514.   Joshua Worley
It's different at Bronx Banter, for sure. There's more of an edge, I guess. But it's positively tame compared with other blogs I've seen. For instance, the Padres blog "Gaslamp Ball". The game threads from the Padres playoff loss to the Rockies are not for the easily offended.

I once saw one of the bloggers there warn someone not to use so many f-bombs because otherwise it might get them tagged as a porn site.

2007-10-04 22:04:57
515.   bhsportsguy
506 I like Bronx Banter too, sometimes expressing yourself freely is the only way to watch baseball.

But I like DT better.

2007-10-04 22:06:27
516.   underdog
Maybe Arizona's veterans are nicer and more approachable than those on the Dodgers? Maybe it's as simple as that? I don't think there's much of a difference in personality, or enough of one, among the young players on LA and AZ; I think it's about the veterans in each case.

Okay, night all.

2007-10-04 22:07:16
517.   underdog
513 Just the thought of those ads and that song makes me want to wretch for several hours straight.
2007-10-04 22:10:50
518.   Vishal
511 man, i missed it. what'd they say?
2007-10-04 22:11:34
519.   BruceR
421 Just now perusing these comments and thought I'd let you know that after seeing your question I thought I'd try it. I am now listening to the D-Backs broadcast of Game 2. Of course, I had to do the stupid and utterly ridiculous logout-though-already-logged-out-and-then-log-in thing ... sheesh.
2007-10-04 22:11:44
520.   Vishal
518 hah, i just realized you must mean cal ripken.
2007-10-04 22:16:14
521.   LAT
520. Ha ha i just realized that it looks like I meant California when I meant Cal Ripkin.
2007-10-04 23:11:51
522.   Frip
Saito gets a mention in this Hardball Times article discussing wishfull but improbable MVPs.

2007-10-04 23:30:57
523.   Greg Brock
512 When teams make the playoffs, their young players do the right thing. When they don't, the young players need to learn how to do the right things. Blah blah blah.

The Dodgers' pitching staff got hit with injuries and the the older players didn't hit well. This is not rocket science. This is not tough to understand.

2007-10-04 23:55:19
524.   KG16
523 - but see that kind of analysis would require actually paying attention to teams not from New York or Boston.
2007-10-05 06:06:30
525.   old dodger fan
Just read some of last nights posts at Bronx Banter. Reminds me that there is nothing sweeter than the Dodgers beating the Yankees in the WS. I hope it happens again.
2007-10-05 06:45:03
526.   Gen3Blue
525 I didn't really know what wasw going on in 1955 but we have savored the feeling several times since.
2007-10-05 06:50:15
527.   JoeyP
512--This just means that the old school baseball media is dumb. Likely will continue to be dumb until some of the new school writers (like Keith Law, Joe Sheehan, Rob Neyer, etc) make it more into the mainstream. It will come in time.

If the Red Sox win it again, I suspect there'll be tons of articles on Bill James/Theo yet again.

2007-10-05 06:56:19
528.   JoeyP
"I don't blame those people," Byrnes said. "All the number crunchers out there, sometimes you can't measure a team's heart, and this team seems to have a whole lot of it."

No wonder Eric didnt make it in Oakland.

2007-10-05 07:34:28
529.   ToyCannon
528 Just because something is not quantifiable doesn't mean it can't have an impact. You have a belief system that is not quantifiable yet you don't seem to have a problem believing in it.

Having watched the Diamondbacks play the Dodgers several times during the year, I always came away with the impression that the Diamondbacks play the game harder.

Does that translate into wins? I have no clue, what I do know is that numbers wise, the Diamondbacks are not a good team. Yet they led the NL in wins.

Luck or heart? Probably luck, but I'm not close minded enough to think that is always the answer when the numbers don't add up.

2007-10-05 07:46:01
530.   Bob Timmermann
Keith Law used to work for a major league team and left/was told to leave. So he had his chance to make an impact on the game and he didn't.

All of the other writers in 527 are unlikely to ever become "mainstream" because the media is becoming too diverse with too many outlets.

And there will always be generational conflicts in organizations. It's a matter of self-preservation. The older generation will want to retain its power and influence and isn't going to give it up to a younger generation without a fight.

2007-10-05 07:46:12
531.   old dodger fan
529 Years ago I was coaching a Little League All-Star team and around the 3rd or 4th inning we were behind by a score of 4-0 or 5-0. One of their coaches wandered by and asked, "Where did you get all those big kids that can't hit?" That comment lit a huge fire in our kids and we won the game by 3 or 4 runs. Maybe it was a co-incidence but I think we played harder. Probably my fault that it took something like that to get them to play up to their potential but the difference was noticable.

Do some MLB teams try harder? I can't prove it but I think they do. I don't know how you factor that into statistical analysis.

2007-10-05 07:48:58
532.   Bob Timmermann
Is it playing harder or just better?
2007-10-05 07:56:30
533.   Vishal
532 yeah, i don't understand how trying "harder" will let you hit a curveball. maybe focusing/concentrating more will...
2007-10-05 08:03:50
534.   old dodger fan
I don't understand it either. I read somewhere that if baseball players try too hard they get worse. I don't know how it works. I just remember the difference in those kids. Maybe it was just a tired pitcher on the other team.
2007-10-05 08:25:15
535.   LogikReader
Kavula is going to love this:

"Baseball is not about stats"

Cowherd, 2 minutes ago

2007-10-05 08:25:54
536.   LogikReader
Daniel, not Kavula, oops
2007-10-05 08:28:00
537.   ToyCannon
Playing harder in my context meant the following from observation of the Diamondbacks.
1. Every player ran hard to 1st with full turns, ready to take 2nd at the slightest bobble from the outfielder.
2. Every play in the outfield and infield was backed up properly.
3. All cutoff plays, were executed correctly

It has nothing to do with hitting or fielding, but what you do after you put the ball in play or what you do on defense when a ball is in play.

Did any of this turn a loss into a victory? No, but when your talent isn't very good you at least give yourselves a better chance.

It is quite strange. Several months ago Josh questioned if the Diamondbacks were really a playoff contender. I wrote in response all the reasons I felt they were. None of those reasons came to pass, but here they are one game away from the NL championship series. It is quite inexplicable.

2007-10-05 08:28:23
538.   Andrew Shimmin
In addition to heart and luck, it's also possible that Eric Byrnes is magic. I've been trying to study this issue further, but MLB has turned down every request I've made to throw Byrnes in a lake and see if he floats. Science-hating reactionaries. . .
2007-10-05 08:33:12
539.   Bumsrap
512 - what I am saying is that our youngsters will carry this with them, fairly or unfairly by many in the media, even those who do not write for LA Times

If the Dodgers win next year they will be remembered for winning, until they lose--same with AZ.

AZ had a rookie center fielder that hit 30 homeruns and the Dodgers had a veteran center fielder that hit zero homeruns but has the biggest heart in MLB.

2007-10-05 08:33:48
540.   LogikReader
For the record, I find "The Herd" entertaining, but don't usually agree with his opinions. I don't see a lot of vitrol the way I would with, say, Jim Rome.

Anyway I hope I didn't pull a rule 3. If I did, I apologize immediately.


It's been a while since a NPUT, but I was pleased to see most folks agreed w/ me over at Screen Jam re: the Office last night.


These playoffs are really going fast, but I'm kinda excited about the prospect of a Mountain Time Zone NLCS. That could be an NL first.

2007-10-05 08:42:55
541.   D4P
throw Byrnes in a lake and see if he floats

Well, we know that he floats when he's in a kayak. And so does his dog.

But it might be just the kayak doing the floating. Hard to say.

2007-10-05 08:51:46
542.   ToyCannon

Bright people those English.

2007-10-05 08:55:43
543.   Jon Weisman
540 - NPUT - probably the only one throught the weekend.
2007-10-05 08:56:07
544.   Humma Kavula
536 I have distaste for Cowherd as much as anybody.

501 I'm really kind of a putz -- and not the J.J. variety. You really shouldn't listen to anything I say. Except when I say that BB intimidates me. That's for realz.

539 and related: Regardless of my feelings in the matter, and without wanting to rehash the feud, I will say that I'm very disappointed by the turn of events in the past month. I was really, really looking forward to rooting for this team, and the fact that the kids are as good as advertised is immensely satisfying. But -- and I want to be clear that I am not blaming anyone for what's happened -- the whole situation has left a sour taste in my mouth. I still root for the kids wholeheartedly, but it would have been really great if they could have risen to the top without the kind of moral judgements on their character (whether deserved or not, and I know how I feel about that). I'm still their fan, and I feel that there's still no other way to go with the team, so really, see my earlier comment about not listening to anything I say... I don't really have a point at all, except to say that all of this has been disappointing from a fan's point of view.

2007-10-05 08:59:04
545.   RIYank
542 The scientific approach would be to see whether he weighs more than a duck.
2007-10-05 09:03:27
546.   Bob Timmermann
Since there haven't been two teams in the Mountain Time Zone since the 1990s, I would say an all-MT NLCS would be a first.

However, Arizona will be playing in the same time zone as the West Coast and Nevada throughout the postseason because DST goes longer now.

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