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4) arguing for the sake of arguing
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It pains me to see Eric Gagne mauled by opposing batters and Boston Red Sox fans. It's like watching someone else mistreat my old dog.
I'm not close enough to the situation to know whether most of the anger is directed at Gagne himself or at Boston management for using him, but I think it might be the former. From what little I've seen, Gagne doesn't look at all comfortable on the mound - which immediately makes me wonder if he is once again pitching while injured. This became a habit, of course, in Los Angeles, and given the fact that Gagne had good numbers with Texas before Boston acquired him, it would be my first guess.
In any event, Gagne has become the anti-Dave Roberts for the Red Sox. He has become to Beantown what Danys Baez or Roberto Hernandez were in Los Angeles. He has become fortune's fool, and even though he left the Dodgers for greenbacker pastures, it only makes me sad. I sure hope this isn't the way Gagne goes out. I'll never forget my amazement at how automatic he was and the excitement he brought Los Angeles.
Interestingly, the other ex-Dodger punching bag, J.D. Drew, had a much subtler rough night yesterday too, mainly because all season long his struggles have been exacerbated in Red Sox fans' minds by his apathy, i.e., by the fact that he's "Not Trot." And last night the guy who IS Trot showed why he's Trot. Meanwhile Drew padded his stats with a meaningless 11th inning single with the team 7 runs behind.
Sophisticated fans who dislike JD Drew will say that he tries for a walk with runners on base instead of a hit.
Just so you can keep up with the cool kids.
Don't know whether this is facetious or not, but it brings up a point. What are players supposed to do when their team is down by 7? If all singles, doubles, triples, and homeruns are meaningless at that point, would we prefer that they just forfeit rather than get on base?
Hell yeah, I'm listening.
I can't think of too many Dodgers who were more fun to watch than Eric Gagne. Fernando, certainly. Mike Piazza was very good fun, thank you kindly. Beyond that... Nomo? Maybe.
It's painful to watch Gagne fail if for no other reason than we Dodger fans never, ever had to type the words "Gagne" and "fail" in the same sentence.
I mean, never. He was that great.
I don't know if fan fiction has run its course, but the game is now tied going into the 8th.
In fairness, I don't think that was Josh's point though I can certainly see how it would be taken that way. Josh's point, I think, was that Drew isn't making much of impact when it counts.
Its almost official--Dusty Baker is the Reds Manager. Does he still like Pierre?
If it were not for steroids hanging over the performances of some players like an agreement with the devil, I might have more empathy for Gagne.
For sure. That being said, he gets on base at a good clip. He's really better suited for the top of the lineup these days rather than the middle.
As to J.D.'s dugout "presence", I'm not sure why anyone expected any different. His perceived indifference is well-documented.
I think Drew's "attitude" is really the secondary issue--the fact of the matter is he's had a poor season, disastrous, really, in light of that contract--by any standard, old school or sabermetric.
Drew's struggles and contract really shouldn't be made in a sabermetric/old school debate, because PECOTA had an extremely pessimistic projection on Drew (I actually thought it was wrong, but it turns out BPro was closer to the mark).
WWSH
If only Ned hadn't given that contract to Pierre, we would be sitting pretty right now--freed from Drew's original contract with us courtesy of him electing free agency. Unfortunately, we have a different albatross contract over our necks now.
WWSH
If you thought Pac-10 football has been a surprise this year (well, a disappointment lately, but overall a pleasant surprise), things are looking even rosier on the basketball front. Rivals.com has 5 Pac-10 schools in their top-15 led by UCLA at #3 and all but Oregon State and Arizona State are in their top 33.
In brief yes, although it should be pointed out that Gagne's historic seasons during his prime made him a special player more than anything else. In that sense, Nomar in his prime would be the better comparison to give you a sense of what Gagne was for us.
Strange symmetry there--you guys have a washed up Gagne, while we have a washed up Nomar. Baseball truly can be an unforgiving sport.
WWSH
Actually, I guess they could try to blame gloss...
WWSH
"Drew's shoulder problems"
And, the Red Sox have several tons of money, and no compunction in spending it. Somebody's got to play RF. They could have traded their Gagne bounty for one, before the season started, or they could have let Willy Mo try to work it out, the way he did the instant he got to Sam's neighborhood. But they didn't. They gave Drew a ton of money. It's inefficient, and unwise, but I can't get on board calling it disastrous, yet.
Duck is very good. It gets a bad rap in the U.S. because it's considered "greasy" although it is not that hard to get the fat out and then reuse that for cooking.
The question I have is: which Pac-10 team will be ranked higher: USC or Oregon?
there's like 2 ounces of meat. 18 Euro doesn't get you what it used to.
vr, Xei
Oregon is the top Pac-10 team at 6 (coaches) and 7 (writers). The coaches have Cal and USC tied at 9, but the writers have USC at 13 and Cal at 10. ASU is at 12 in both polls and got one first place vote in the AP poll.
For those interested, AP has Oregon at 7, Cal at 10, and USC at 13; USA Today has it Oregon 6 and both Cal and USC at 9.
I doubt there will ever be a betting line on the UCLA-Cal game since no one will know who either team is starting at QB or how long that person will play.
Welcome to the UH bandwagon. It's rickety and the wheels seem wobbly at times (two OT-games won on the road!), but it's fun to watch. They have a bye this weekend.
The BCS rankings will come out later and I would be surprised if UH is anywhere near the #12 spot that would be required for a BCS bowl.
I'm sure the Bows will enjoy the Hawai'i Bowl again.
Nothing like a win over a 5-7 Washington team to propel you up the rankings.
Honestly, that might be worth 14 million in todays terms, especially with the termination clause in his contract that removes any risk involved in signing J.D. Drew.
Thank you, Wayne Krivsky.
I know. But:
1. It was obvious that he was hurt before they signed him, much less in 2009, 2010, 2011.
2. They still have to (over)pay him this year and next.
3. The DL stuff will probably serve as an incentive for Drew to play hurt, rather than telling anyone he's injured.
4. I have a hard time believing that Boras would let the Red Sox opt out very easily. Even if the Red Sox doctor claims pre-existing injury, my guess is Boras's doctor will have a different opinion.
Obviously, no one suspects A-Rod, but what if you signed him to a $300M contract and then he pops up in the list.
Or made a huge trade for Johan Santana, or Dontrelle Willis, or who knows.
I always considered Gagne a prime suspect as well.
I also find it instructive that the Drew hit they recall from last night is the meaningless 11th-inning single, and not the sharp line drive, lefty on lefty, that he got when it was a one-run game in the fifth.
Jon, I was a little surprised to not see a little deeper statistical look at Gagne from you. Biggest point first, he only pitched 18 2/3 IP with Boston. Still he only gave up 1 HR, 9 BB (a few too many), and 22 Ks. I'm not sure where to find BABIP data, but this would likely explain most of his trouble. I'm not syaing he really pitched well for Boston, but the typical Boston histrionics drive me crazy.
It disgusts me to see Gagne's career arc tainted with totally baseless slander. It is a well-known principle of sabermetrics, or so I've been told, that relief pitchers are inherently inconsistent, have peaks and valleys, etc. Moreover, Gagne's decline coincided with...um...injuries. He is dealing with physical problems and probably mechanical problems caused by nearly two years of being sidelined.
With all these other logical explanations close at hand, how does a steroid allegation come to any fair mind? I'm sorry, but that kind of easy, thoughtless slide into making such a trendy accusation is beyond lame. It's like the days when anyone who lost weight was subjected to rumors of AIDS. We're in a witch-hunting phase, apparently. Count me out.
These generalizations about Boston fans are starting to rankle me a little. I got rankled in the same way one time at Bronx Batnter. I guess it's the same everywhere--fans of any team like to think they are superior to other fans. The truth is, it's easy to set yourself above the rabble, and I'm pretty sure every team has its rabble, its loud kneejerk reactors, just like every team has plenty of thoughtful, respectful fans who can generally keep things in perspective. That said, I find it hard to believe that even the most munificent and circumspect fan of any team would be feeling sunny and warm about a high-priced mid-season acquisition who has yet to contribute in any way to his team and who just figured significantly in a wrenching playoff loss the night before.
nice read DzzrtRatt, I was thinking maybe we could re-sign him for '08 but with Broxton & Saitos emergence we have no need for him now. I'm sure he'll bounce back strong for '08.
Priceless!
See Lugo, Julio.
Let's just keep in mind that he got a K, gave up a 32 hopper to right field, and a walk last night. I saw some of his wicked pitches last night that I remember fondly from his Dodger days. Just curious but how much wrath did Javier Lopez and Jon Lester accrue in the media and on fan boards last night, for pitching far worse than Gagne?
i suppose i'll have to give duck a l'orange a try at some point.
It's a Dodger Thoughts tradition to accuse the Cardinals of taking steroids. Especially when they are engaged in their annual depantsing of the Dodgers.
OK, fair enough. I'm not sure how you came to that ironclad conclusion (do you know many Red Sox fans personally or is this an opinion drawing on media portrayals?), but you seem like a reasonable person; I respect your opinion. I guess I'd only personally vote for a word with less derogatory connotations than "hysterical" in the above sentence, and I might also take even more pains to separate the bufoonery of the media from the thoughts and behaviors of the fans. Dan Shaughnessy and ESPN shoving the Red Sox down everyone's throats is not the fault of Red Sox fans.
But whom do we blame for Bob Ryan?
68 : I grip to those BABIP stats for hope, and indeed it's the nibbling walks that have been the most frustrating elements of his performances.
"Can you tell me why it's important to use critical thinking?"
Chamberlain showed a megaarm as a starter, so did Broxton. So you have a good grasp of Saito's stuff as a starter? Gagne's increase in fastball life and overall arm speed was profound, in no small part because it proved to be sustainable.
Anyway, good point about ESPN and company.
And yes, Chamberlain's increase, and Broxton's, were exactly comparable. I don't know specifically what "megaarm" means, but Baseball America's scouting report on Chamberlain from the June 2006 draft lists him as throwing a "a 92-94 mph fastball."
As for Broxton, the 2004 Baseball America Dodgers prospect list -- the last one when Broxton was still a starter -- lists him as "pounding the strike zone at 92-93 mph."
Now both Chamberlain and Broxton throw essentially 5-6 mph faster. That's what happens when you move to the pen. Gagne's increase in velocity was not unique or unusual, and any implication otherwise can only be the result of an attempt to look for a smoking gun where one doesn't exist.
In my opinion that's the biggest contributer to his problems. In L.A. & I'm guessing in Texas he had good control but in Boston he seems to just wanna air it out instead of actually, you know, pitching, but also like Jon said he's probably having injury issues as well.
Secondly, I would say that such a child would reflect later and say, "you know, the counselor said my parents were mean enough that they didn't want to be around them, but I didn't even want to be around them. They were really mean, almost worthless."
His brothers & sisters have some kind of weird decease right? that's pretty crazy, & here he is playing professional sports, that's pretty inspiring, wow.
I didn't attempt to do it.
Several people in David Eckstein's family have a genetic condition that predisposes them to kidney failure.
Sure, steroids don't give you control, but if you don't have to exert maximum effort, you have better control. Try drawing a straight line while gripping a pencil as hard as you can. Same thing as trying to hit the strike zone while throwing with all your might.
Other than that he's a cheat and I hate him for that. Who even knew that robots could cheat?
Josh, like you I live in New England, and to my mind there is a hysteria that surrounds local coverage of the Sox, and has been so at least since '75 when I moved up here. And while I agree that it's the buffoonery of the media that is responsible, there certainly seem to be large numbers of fans who buy into it. Not all, maybe not even most, but the combination was enough to turn me off the Sox for good within weeks of being exposed to it.
I mean, the local media and fans up here actually got me to root for the Reds in the '75 Series. I would never have thought it possible...
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